Podcast Summary: The Best People with Nicolle Wallace

Episode: "Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling Knows Leadership… And When It’s Lacking"

Date: March 16, 2026

Guest: Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling

Episode Overview

In this highly reflective and timely episode, Nicolle Wallace sits down with retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling to discuss his life, his new book If I Don’t Return, and the nature of true leadership—especially in times of war and political upheaval. Hertling provides deeply personal insights drawn from his decades of military service, including moving stories from the Gulf War, reflections on moral injury, the vital importance of character in leadership, and candid thoughts on the current challenges facing American democracy and its institutions. The episode offers a close look at the human costs of military decisions, the complex motivations that drive people to serve, and the qualities that distinguish genuine leaders from those who merely hold authority.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Origin and Impact of If I Don’t Return

• Genesis of the Book: Hertling describes turning a Gulf War journal for his sons into a multi-generational family project and now a public reflection on leadership, trauma, and growth.
  • “When I started thinking about having a coin flip chance of coming home with two sons…my mind started racing…That generated the idea of keeping a journal…I wanted to teach them lessons about adulthood, manhood, how they’re going to grow up.” (05:15)
• Cathartic Reflection: Revisiting the journal decades later became a means not only to recount events but to process and reveal deeper truths about war, loss, and self-examination.

2. The Burden of Truth and Moral Injury

• Facing Hard Realities: Hertling recounts the challenge of writing openly about moments he initially could not admit, such as killing an enemy soldier at close range—an act that haunted him for years.
  • “When I walked in, there was a guy inside…he stood up with his rifle… and I had my pistol drawn and I fired first…Inside his helmet, he had a picture of his family. In fact, I had the same kind of picture in my helmet…It would create a moral injury that stayed with me for a long time…” (11:11)
• Importance of Reflection: Both Hertling and Wallace emphasize that, as a nation, Americans don’t reflect or talk enough about the realities veterans bring home, and the long shadow this casts on families and society.
  • “You can support. But you really, you don’t understand that if you’ve not been there.” (15:06, Wallace)

3. Understanding Why People Serve

• No Single Reason: Motivation to join the military is diverse—ranging from family influence, seeking direction, to moments of national crisis.
  • “The amount of answers that were different that I got were just incredible. So there’s, there’s no one reason.” (17:21)
• Found Family: Anecdote about a former male model who found brotherhood and values in service (19:22):
  • “‘I was 19…making a lot of money as a model, but I looked in the mirror…said, I need to do something more important…I’m with my brothers now…all these guys are my brothers…this is a good life. I wasn’t doing anything for society when I was a model.’” (19:22, Hertling)

4. Loss and Leadership

• Personal Toll of Loss: The acute pain of losing soldiers, especially those with whom there is a personal bond.
  • “What’s it like when you lose one of them?...It’s devastating if you don’t know him. It’s something that will put you under the table if you really know him…” (20:21)
• Leadership as Character: Hertling repeatedly distinguishes real leadership as grounded in character, curiosity, and human connection—not merely title or power.
  • “To truly lead, you have to exhibit character…You have to have emotions that bring you into connecting…when you don’t have those kinds of intellectual curiosities, I don’t understand how someone…can call themselves a leader when their followers are not connecting those dots.” (35:32, Hertling)

5. Reflections on Democracy and the Military in the Trump Era

• Civil-Military Relations: The importance of values and the Constitution as the true object of service, contrasting American norms with those in other nations.
  • “Very few countries that pledge life to a piece of paper that’s a reflection of ideas and values and what we believe.” (26:00, Hertling)
• On Trump and Leadership Deficit:
  • On Trump’s contempt for military sacrifice: “That’s really sad that you don’t get it…that you would brush it off like that. And then…the second thing I’d probably do is leave. I can’t work for this guy.” (25:34)
  • On senior military opposition to autocracy: “What does it mean for the military to have someone…flagrantly…autocratic to his core?” (27:52, Wallace)
  • “Politicians…the world where opinion matters a whole lot more than facts and logic. And that’s unfortunate.” (28:34)

6. Diversity, “Wokeness,” and Building Stronger Teams

• Defending Military Diversity:
  • “Teaching at a business school now…I can cite probably no less than a thousand studies on diversity and how it contributes to a better workplace…we attempted for years to actually drive that diversity.” (38:02, Hertling)
• Embracing Curiosity: Both leaders and soldiers are strongest when pursuing understanding, even of their adversaries or critics.
  • “I am [woke], purposely, because I want to know about other people…I think you gain a whole lot of strength from that. Not only your friends, but also your enemies.” (37:01, Hertling)

7. Institutional Integrity and the Future

• Worry and Optimism: While Wallace expresses concern about the fragmentation of institutions, Hertling remains a cautious optimist.
  • “There are indicators…that they are holding. Some are bending more than others but I haven’t seen any that have broken yet and that’s a good thing.” (44:53, Hertling)
  • “[We] won’t be back to what we were, but…we could come back better because perhaps we lose the swagger and gain a little bit of humility…” (45:38, Hertling)

8. The Generals’ Dilemma: Speaking Out or Staying Silent

• The Razor’s Edge: Hertling discusses the challenge and costs of retired generals speaking out.
  • “People think you’re trying to influence them in your direction. I’ve kind of toned myself down a little bit…I was getting too mad…showing too much emotions.” (47:02-47:40)
• Breaking Glass in an Emergency: On whether the military’s oath demands public alarm in “break the glass” moments.
  • “Logically, I believe it is very dangerous…threatening what that document means. And that’s why I speak out…when I see violations of…constitutional issues, I talk about it.” (50:34, Hertling)

9. Life in Uniform: What Civilians Don’t See

• Misconceptions about Military Life: The “Great Santini” myth vs. today’s professional and motivational approach.
  • “You don’t get 18 and 19 year old men and women to do the kinds of things we ask them to do with just orders. You have to understand their motivations…today’s military is a profession.” (56:08, Hertling)

10. Values, Character, and the Evolving Nature of War

• Essential Takeaway: Hertling’s book and career are reminders that leadership, in any sector, is forged in introspection, empathy, and conviction—and that the demands of modern conflict require continual adaptation.

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On why he wrote his book:

  • “We don’t do as much reflection on our life as we should…It’s a leadership book, but it’s more about the world around you and how to be an evolving leader…” (09:56, Hertling)

• On moral injury and seeking help:

  • “I finally went to see somebody…before 9/11…for a major at the time, going to see a shrink was probably not a good idea. But I did it…and it was very helpful.” (13:40, Hertling)

• On the oath to the Constitution:

  • “There are very few countries that pledge life to a piece of paper that’s a reflection of ideas and values and what we believe.” (26:45, Hertling)

• On leadership and connection:

  • “How do you lead? It’s just not a formal position…To truly lead, you have to exhibit character…when you don’t have those kinds of intellectual curiosities, I don’t understand how someone…can call themselves a leader…” (35:32, Hertling)

• On diversity in the military:

  • “We attempted for years to actually drive that diversity so we could really represent America…you form some pretty good teams that way, too.” (38:02, Hertling)

• On the limits of generals saving democracy:

  • “I think there’s a vast number of Americans who think the generals are gonna save us, and they’re not. I mean, we take that oath to the Constitution. If you elect a guy that I don’t like as the president, I’m still gonna support him.” (48:46, Hertling)

• On the relevance of military values to crises in any field:

  • “If this book helps people understand…that your values help you get through crises and help you make decision making in the right way, then that would be valuable.” (54:06, Hertling)

Timestamps for Critical Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | Book origins and 50% casualty briefing | 04:05 - 08:45 | | Reflections on writing, moral injury | 09:56 - 14:22 | | Why people serve; Model-to-soldier story | 16:39 - 19:22 | | Loss of soldiers and personal impact | 20:21 - 21:46 | | Civil-military divide in values | 25:34 - 27:51 | | On “wokeness,” diversity, and military culture | 36:29 - 38:47 | | The generals’ voices in politics | 47:01 - 50:16 | | Values, leadership, and how the public misreads military life | 53:48 - 56:08 |

Concluding Thoughts

Through poignant storytelling and unvarnished candor, Lt. Gen. Hertling and Nicolle Wallace offer listeners an insider’s view of the ethical, emotional, and societal strains on military leaders and their families—while drawing broader lessons for anyone interested in leadership, democracy, and the meaning of service. The episode is ultimately a call to reflection, humility, and an enduring commitment to values—whether in uniform or in the challenges of civic life.

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