Martin Sheen is the Most Presidential Man in the Room

Summary

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The Best People with Nicolle Wallace

Episode: "Martin Sheen is the Most Presidential Man in the Room"

Air Date: October 13, 2025
Guest: Martin Sheen
Notable Surprise Guest: Lawrence O’Donnell
Event: Recorded Live at MSNBC Live 25, New York City

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Episode Overview

This engaging episode features Emmy and Golden Globe-winning actor Martin Sheen, lauded both for his 70-year career and his lifelong activism. Recorded at MSNBC Live 25 in NYC before an enthusiastic audience, Sheen reflects on his decades as an artist and organizer, his hope for America, and his call to decency in turbulent times. The conversation includes moving stories about civil rights, his iconic portrayal of President Jed Bartlet on "The West Wing," and the enduring power of principled leadership—fictional and real.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy of the 1960s & The Power of Lost Causes

[00:59; 13:54]

• Martin Sheen recounts the losses of the civil rights era: “We crawled out of the 60s… We lost all the heroes and the martyrs. But we came out absolutely dedicated to serving lost causes. Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.”
  (Martin Sheen, [00:59], [13:54])
• The era's violence galvanized his activism, reinforcing his commitment to nonviolence.

2. Bringing Broadway Together for Justice – "Broadway Answers Selma"

[06:18 – 13:15]

• Sheen’s Story: As a young actor on Broadway during the Selma marches, Sheen spearheaded a benefit with Jack Albertson, Sammy Davis Jr., and Barbra Streisand for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and Rev. James Reeb’s family.
• Meeting Dr. King (Almost): Dr. King’s surprise appearance at the benefit left Sheen awestruck, but he debated whether to approach for a blessing—a moment he recounts with humility and humor.
• Emotional Impact: “I never met him, but I told that story to Oprah… It’s probably a better story that I didn’t meet him. He’d probably still be there listening to me. I adored him.” (Martin Sheen, [13:54])

3. Activism: Then and Now

[17:05 – 22:45]

• Sheen compares then and now: "Does this moment feel worse to you?" asks the host, referencing civil rights. Sheen answers, “It does because it’s scarier actually. Since 9/11, arrests on federal property can bring an automatic six months… You have to go as a community… demonstrate that one heart with courage is a majority.” ([17:35])
• He points out the loneliness and egoism at the heart of today's political leadership: “In that room [the White House Cabinet], there’s no heroes, no music, no laughter… it smells of ego and fear and false worship.” ([21:20])
• On the importance of vulnerability: “Being human is all we need. We’re broken. It’s beautiful, brokenness. Because if you weren’t broken, nothing could get in to change you.” ([21:50])

4. A Direct Message to the President & The Role of Humanity

[22:45 – 23:29]

• Sheen issues a heartfelt, if sardonic, address to the president:
  “You are the biggest nothing in the world… Get in touch with that humanity. Stop fussing with your hair… Stand up straight and start being human. That’s what you were made for, not golf.” ([22:50], [23:29])

5. Humor, Mockery, and Enduring Hope

[23:29 – 26:48]

• On the necessity of humor: “If we can’t make fun of ourselves… see how ridiculous we are… the ego is such a beast… but it teaches us how to identify with ourselves. When it gets out of hand, you’ll choke on your own ego.” ([24:02])
• The Roman lesson: Leaders would whisper, “It’s only fleeting,” in the ruler’s ear—“This administration is only fleeting.” ([25:56])
• Regarding public fear that current conditions will last forever, Sheen insists, “It’s only fleeting. You and I are only fleeting. All of you are only fleeting.” ([26:39])

6. Hollywood, Identity, and the Artist’s Role

[26:48 – 28:16]

• Sheen downplays his connection to Hollywood:
  “I don’t really feel a part of Hollywood… I always felt a bit embarrassed when they called me a Hollywood actor. I always thought I was a Broadway star, for heaven’s sakes.” ([28:06])

7. Aaron Sorkin and The “West Wing Effect”

[28:16 – 31:12; 33:16 – 34:19]

• On Sorkin’s vision: “Aaron is a super patriot with a brilliant mind and a fair heart. He never cast a Republican as an enemy—the loyal opposition… [he had an] unabashed love of country. Not politics or party per se, but of country, the possibility of it.” ([28:50])
• Sheen on the “West Wing’s” resonance:
  “When I did it my way, it was Martin and it was okay. When I did it his way, it was Bartlet and it was wonderful.” ([33:16])
• The host credits "The West Wing" for her own career: “I work in politics because of watching C.J. Craig. I wanted to be C.J. Craig…” ([34:19])

8. Surprising the Audience: Lawrence O’Donnell Joins

[34:36 – 41:47]

• O’Donnell recounts the show’s authenticity and Sheen’s leadership “every day… in the presence of this generosity and grace and goodness and wisdom. We had a leader.” ([36:20])
• O’Donnell explains why "The West Wing" endures, especially for young viewers who’ve only known recent administrations:
  “A friend… watches it with his two sons, 14 and 16… [They] need him.” ([39:02])
• Sheen credits O’Donnell’s deep knowledge for the show’s credibility:
  “Lawrence brought… credibility… knowledge… his love of the Senate… That kept us afloat… because we knew what we were doing was legal, was honest, and it was also the truth.” ([39:54])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Martin Sheen:

  • “Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.” ([00:59], [13:54])
  • “Being human is all we need. We’re broken. It’s beautiful, brokenness.” ([21:50])
  • “Get in touch with that humanity. Stop fussing with your hair… Stand up straight and start being human. That’s what you were made for, not golf.” ([22:50])
  • “[Aaron Sorkin] never cast a Republican as an enemy. They were the loyal opposition if the Democrats were in power and then vice versa.” ([28:50])
  • “When I did it my way, it was Martin and it was okay. When I did it his way, it was Bartlet and it was wonderful.” ([33:16])

• Lawrence O’Donnell:

  • “What I’m so thrilled about you experiencing here today… is that you’re getting a feeling I’ve never really been able to explain to people about what it was like… to be in the presence of this generosity and grace and goodness and wisdom every day. We had a leader.” ([36:20])
  • “A friend… when he first saw the show… thought it was maybe a little too naive… but now, [watching] with his two sons… They need him.” ([39:02])

• Podcast Host:

  • “One of the ways the good guys lose is if we don’t see each other and feel connected. And you’ve always been a convener.” ([13:15])
  • On the fictional presidency’s inspiration: “When you see in President Clinton or President Obama a reflection or relationship to the fictional presidents, you feel different about your country than when you see someone who said, ‘grab ‘em in the…’ You know what I mean?” ([28:16])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:18 – 13:15] Sheen’s story of organizing Broadway Answers Selma and his near-encounter with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
• [17:35] Sheen on the fear and necessity of protest post-9/11 and the importance of courageous community
• [21:50] Reflections on vulnerability, ego, and what it means to be beautifully, blessedly broken
• [22:50] Direct message to the president: “Get in touch with that humanity…”
• [24:02; 25:56] On the importance of humor, ego, and the lesson “it’s only fleeting”
• [28:50] On Aaron Sorkin’s vision and the “West Wing Effect”
• [36:20 – 39:54] Surprise appearance by Lawrence O’Donnell: behind-the-scenes of "The West Wing" and its cultural impact

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Takeaways

• Martin Sheen’s activism, humility, and sense of calling have always informed his art.
• The power of collective action and personal courage remains fundamental, especially in dark times.
• The "West Wing" shows Americans’ hunger for principled, human leadership—and its resonance is perennial, especially now.
• Ego, humor, and a sense of our brief place in history offer both caution and hope.
• True humanity—broken, vulnerable, striving—is a blessing and the key to authentic connection.

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Recommended for:
Anyone needing a reminder of the power of principled leadership, artistic purpose, or simply a dose of decency and hope.

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Transcript

[Martin Sheen]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Martin Sheen]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Martin Sheen]

Flavor if the Colonel could read all your Internet comments over the last few.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Years, he'd say, people sure love my sweet, smoky KFC Original Honey Barbecue and it's time we bring it back so.

[Martin Sheen]

They can put that bold, tangy sauce.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

On their favorite orders.

[Martin Sheen]

He'd also say, thanks for calling my chicken goaded bussin and low key fire, bro. The Colonel lived so we could chicken.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Back because you begged for it. KFC Original Honey Barbecue. Prices and participation may vary.

[Martin Sheen]

While supplies last. You know, we kind of crawled out of the 60s. We lost Reverend King, we lost John Kennedy, his brother Robert. We lost Medgar Everest, we lost Malcolm X. We lost all the heroes and the martyrs. But we came out absolutely dedicated to serving lost causes. Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Hi everyone and welcome to the Best People Podcast. This past weekend was such a blast. I had the chance to sit down with Emmy and Golden Globe winning actor Martin Sheen at our annual fan event, MSNBC Live 25. Martin's career has spanned nearly 70 years in movies and series that have defined our times. Martin and I spoke in front of a live audience in New York City about everything from his extraordinary career to his lifelong activism, what he's hopeful about, and a very special call to action for decency and keeping the faith in these times. So this is the Best People. And this is Martin Sheen. Hi guys. Wow, this is amazing, right?

[Martin Sheen]

Wow.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

It's amazing that you're all here. I barely walked the dog today and you are all here in the rain. I'm aware every day that we stand on your shoulders, the people who watch us, and so that you're here is huge. Thank you so, so, so much. Well, thank properly in a second, so hold all that enthusiasm for one sec. The concept for adding to our offerings, the Best People podcast, was rooted in having some of the greatest and smartest people in my life, in your ears and in your living rooms. But the greatest of the great is someone we save for today's audience. Martin Sheen isn't just one of the best people that I know. He's the Best of the best. The professional achievements speak for themselves. An Emmy and Golden Globe winning actor whose career has spanned more than six decades, from Badlands to Apocalypse now, which is a story and a podcast in and of itself, to the thing that pushed me into politics, I couldn't do anything else with my life. After watching the West Wing week after week after week, his personal story is just as compelling. And when you hear it, you'll say, well, of course it is. A son of immigrants, a lifelong believer and doer in non violent civil disobedience, Martin has said that acting is what he does, but activism is what keeps him alive. As Aaron Sorkin said about you, I'm sure you know this already. The West Wing is a love letter to public service. Your portrayal of the best president, one of the best presidents we've ever known, Jed Bartlett, is something that moves me to tears every time I see it. Here's a little bit of it.

[Martin Sheen]

We hold these truths to be self evident. They said that all men are created equal. Strange as it may seem, that was the first time in history that anyone had ever bothered to write that down. I am the Lord your God. Thou shalt worship no other God before me. Boy, those were the days, huh? We are not going to be these people, Abby. I'm not going to do it. I'll walk up to the hill right now and I will give the speaker of the House my resignation.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

The House isn't in session.

[Martin Sheen]

You want to see me, get on the phone and put it in session. If fidelity to freedom and democracy is the the code of our civic religion, and surely the code of our humanity is faithful service to that unwritten commandment that says we shall give our children better than we ourselves receive. One last thing. While you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the ignorant tight ass club, in this building where the President stands, nobody sits.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

I get you, Martin Sheen.

[Martin Sheen]

So who was that guy?

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Oh, we miss him. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being a guest on the Best People podcast and thank you for being here with the most important people in our MSNBC family.

[Martin Sheen]

Thank you very much. I'm delighted, I think, that one of.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

The stories I wanted to ask you to tell is we're joined together right through the airwaves and now, lucky for me, also through the podcast waves. But we're in a physical place and that's such a big deal. For people to come here is such a big deal. And one of your first acts of bringing people together for justice happened here in Times Square. Will you tell us that story about bringing together Barbra Streisand and Sammy Davis and almost meeting Martin Luther King.

[Martin Sheen]

All right, well, I was on Broadway in a three character play called the Subject was Roses. And we were playing. Okay, thank you. Most of the people that saw it are dead by now, but I'm glad that some of you have survived. Thank you. So we started at the Royal Theater and we moved to the. What was called at that time the Little theater off Times Square. It was at 43rd street near 8th Avenue and it was called the Winthrop Ames and then a 600 seat house. And we were really the only drama on Broadway and we were doing very, very well, thank heaven. And so the night of March 7, 1965, Selma happened. And the attack at the Pettus Bridge and the brutal assault on the peaceful protesters who were starting a march to Birmingham. And that Sunday night it was all over the news and we were just so devastated to see how far our racism had gone. And the next day when I came in for the show, I asked my co star, Jack Albertson, would you agree we should do a benefit for Rev. King's Southern Christian Leadership Conference and a young minister from Massachusetts who. Reverend King had asked all the religions to send people to Selma to support the civil rights march. And this young man, this young minister came from Massachusetts and he was murdered the first night he arrived in Selma. His name was Reverend James Reeb. So I told Jack, let's do this benefit that we'll give the funds to the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Reverend King's organization, and, and the family of Reverend James Reeb. And he said, well, it's a good idea, but we, we won't make enough. We're only 600 people. By the time we pay for the electricity alone, we won't have any dough to share. I agreed and I said, well, is it possible we could get all the shows on Broadway to answer Selma? He said, that's a good idea. Let's go and see the only guy who could possibly make that happen on Broadway, Sammy Davis Jr. Who was playing at that time at the Music Box in a hit show called Golden Boy. So the following Saturday, we went to his dressing room and between matinees and we waited and he received us and we told him our story that we believe that Broadway really has to step up and answer Selma. He listened and he, he thought it was a great idea. And he said, the only thing I don't like about your idea is I didn't think of it. So before the evening was over, he had sent telegrams. Remember in those days there was no cell phones and it was hard to communicate with people, but telegrams were instant response. And so he sent telegrams to every show on Broadway, including Barbara Streisand, who was a huge hit at that time in Funny Girl. And Marie Chevalier was doing a one man show on Broadway. And he said, everybody send a representative to Sardis that night, that same Saturday night. And we'll organize a committee for Broadway answering Selma. And that's what happened. So this committee was formed. And I believe it was less than four weeks later we arrived. I arrived for rehearsal at the theater. We did it at the Music Box and Ethel Merman was rehearsing at the orchestra, but I have no memory of her playing that night. I don't know what happened at rehearsal, but. And she didn't appear on the program. So if, if anybody knows what happened that night, please let. At any rate, we were doing a scene from the Circus Roses. It was taking about 12 minutes. Stage manager said, okay, you guys will be in the second act. We said, oh, that's great. We'll be able to watch the first act. So the show began with Sammy Davis coming out on stage. And he said, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Broadway answers Selma. Oh, and by the way, please welcome Martin Luther King Jr. Nobody knew he was in the house. And he was in the, in the first box seat right here. He was that close and he stood up and he looked like he was surprised. He, he kind of looked askance at Sammy, you know, how could you do this to me? Anyway, he stood up and he took a brief bow and he sat back down. The audience was not having it. They were on their feet yelling, bravo, Bravo. And he stood up again and, and took a short bow and no, he sat down. They were not having it. They stood up a third time and he finally got up and he, and he just held his heart and he bowed and then he begged everybody, you know, to sit down and start the show. And they did. And the first show has always does and benefits. It was a bit longer. So it went on for two hours. And meanwhile we were waiting backstage and the stage manager came and said, we're terribly sorry, we're going to have to cut your scene. It's taken too long. I said, that's okay. Sammy came back and said, I'm really sorry we have to cut the scene, but we really are running late. He said, but he, he looked at me, he said, could you help me out backstage? It's very dark back there. Some of the older folks are having trouble finding their seats in the dark before they go. I said, I'd love to. So I. That's how I ended up backstage. And act two started. Sammy was out dancing on the stage and singing a song, and I was backstage. Marie Chalier came in, stumbling around, and I said, over here, sir. And I got him a chair, and he's seated here. And the light that was lighting Sammy on stage was filtering backstage. And I felt a presence just here, maybe 10, 12ft away. And I looked. Reverend King was standing there alone with his hands in his pocket, and he was just looking out on stage. My heart started to pound, and I thought, oh, my God, get the blessing. And the other part of me said, no, no, no, don't bother him. He's late. He's wanting to go home and so forth. He's just come to say good night to Sammy. Leave the man alone. No, no, no. Get the blessing. Get the blessing. No, no, no. Don't trouble the man. Look, he's tired. It's a late night. My God. He was, you know, here with us all night. Nobody even knew he was there. And before I could make up my mind, Sammy came off stage and walked right up to him. He knew he was there, hugged him, led him to the stage, the stage door, and he left. And I never saw him. That was April 4, 1965. Exactly three years later, he was slain in Memphis. I never met him, but I told that story to Oprah Winfrey when I was playing the Federal Judge Johnson that heard the case that finally allowed the march to Birmingham to continue. And the name of that film is called Selma.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Yeah. Yeah. I just. I just wanted to put us all in a place together, because I feel like one of the ways the good guys lose is if we don't see each other and feel connected. And you've always been a convener. You've always stood by people doing the work. You didn't even get to meet your hero. Right. But you put this night in motion.

[Martin Sheen]

And it's probably a better story that I didn't meet him. He'd probably still be there listening to me. I adored him. You know, we kind of crawled out of the 60s. We lost Reverend King, we lost John Kennedy, his brother Robert. We lost Medgar Evers, we lost Malcolm X. We lost all the heroes in the Martyrs. But we came out absolutely dedicated to serving lost causes. Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for. And the only weapon to fight with is nonviolence. That's what we carried out of the very turbulent era.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

We'll take a quick break here. When we come back, much more my conversation with award winning actor Martin sheen from MSNBC Live 25. Stay with us.

[Martin Sheen]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

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[Martin Sheen]

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[Martin Sheen]

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[Martin Sheen]

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[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

I asked Joan Baez this question because she if you haven't watched it, go watch her sing on the March at the March on Washington. I asked her about that day and about that moment and she said this is worse. And she said because we had each other and we had Martin, we had the music, we had the culture and we had each other and we were physically together. She said, this feels worse. Does this moment feel worse to you?

[Martin Sheen]

It does because it's scarier actually. Since 911 arrests on federal property can bring an automatic six months. So you have to be really, really careful. And you have to. You have to go as a community. You can't go by yourself. Or if you want to go by yourself, create a community and take them with you. Because you have to demonstrate in many cases that one heart with courage is a majority. Because sometimes that's all you've got to go on is where you're led. But I, I'm convinced of this, that those people in opposition to where we're at these days admire that kind of courage more than anything else. They can't show it, but they sure as hell admire it. And it either brings their own humanity to the fore or their anger and their jealousy and they try to destroy it. Like the reverend who was standing with his arms out the other day was obviously clearly not a threat to anyone who was praying in Chicago. And the guy shot him in the head. Whoever shot him in the head with that missile has a real problem with his own humanity. I think one of the reasons why so many of the soldiers and the ICE folks, I think that they're covering their faces because they don't want to show their emotion. They don't want to show emotion that they're not proud of what they're doing. Particularly when they're dealing with mothers and children and undocumented people who are of no threat whatsoever. And they know that they're on. People are doing this because they want to be on the side that's winning. And you know it's not going to last. It cannot last. It's the great lie. But there is a great hunger for truth and it's a mighty battle going on. It's not about winning or losing. It's about being in touch with your own personal humanity. Because there's such a lack of it coming from this administration. And I'm convinced of this, that when you look, when you look at, at this group of people at the round table in the White House, the, the Cabinet Room, every one of those people look across the table and they do not see anyone who is better than they are. They generally see a reflection of their worth selves. So there's no heroes in there. There's no music, there's no laughter, there's no self effacement, there's no joy in that room. It smells of ego and fear and false worship. When we realize I'm going on and on, and you look in that room and there's a young man named Robert Francis Kennedy Jr. His father sat in that room in the Ex con committee in October 1963, 62, during the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis. And he literally, with his brother John, rejected an attack on Cuba and basically saved the world from nuclear annihilation. And he did it. He did it because he was in touch with his humanity and he understood the enemy was also human. And if we don't find our own personal humanity, we cannot possibly find it or see it in each other. And so we have to look, you know, we have to start our own journey with realizing our true selves. And that takes a lot of work. But if we're lucky enough to surrender and accept the responsibility that we start as a nothing, basically, except our humanity, and then we realize, oh my God, being human is all we need. We're broken. It's beautiful, brokenness. Because if you weren't broken, nothing could get in to change you. Whether you believe in the one, the other, God, it doesn't matter. The spirit cannot get in you unless there's an entrance point. Our egos prevent it so often. But when you allow that to happen and you're vulnerable, then you begin to realize, oh, being broken is human. It's blessed, it's beautiful. So I have it like there's bb, bbb, That's a Better Business Bureau. But if you apply it to your humanity, you're beautifully blessed and broken. All of us are. So. So the big guy, so the big guy in the White House, that he would take some personal advice. You've got to realize, sir, that you are the biggest nothing in the world.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

And.

[Martin Sheen]

Sir, you stop there. You stop listening to all these people around you, these sycophants who are encouraging you to be your non human self. Get in touch with that humanity. Stop fussing with your hair and don't worry about your tie and stand up straight and speak clearly. Not from your throat, speak from your heart and start being human. That's what you were made for, not golf. So There you are, Mr. President, with all due respect, sir.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

I mean, one of the things that seems to cut through in this moment is humor. And one of the things that drives him crazy is being mocked. And so I noticed Governor Pritzker doing a spoof for Kimmel from the war zone of Chicago, which. Yeah, exactly. And I wonder, I wonder how you would advise us as a country to deploy. Deploy humor and mockery of that which is not good.

[Martin Sheen]

Oh, man. If we can't make fun of ourselves, you know, if we can't see how absolutely ridiculous we are, even if our Our best, where we're trying to hide all our flaw. You know, I, I, I look at myself on the monitor every now and I say, who is that old white haired man sitting up there, for God's sakes, who. I was that guy up there with a full head of wonderful hair and, and looked like I was 30 years younger. I, I was almost that. But no, this is who I am now. And I, I wouldn't be able to sit here if I wasn't able to see the flaw in myself. My kids, my wife Janet, everyone I know and, and that truly loves me finds the, you know, the humor in everything that I do and most of the things I don't do and should do. And so I'm very, very fortunate in that. And it, sometimes it hurts like hell. The ego is such a beast and it will beat you down. But the ego has a great purpose. It, it, it teaches us how to identify with ourselves. If I didn't have an ego, I wouldn't be able to take responsibility for what I believe. I would be governed by you. You. That's the real purpose of the ego. When it gets out of hand. I want to take it all from everybody. Everybody. And I'm fed by that. But that you'll choke. You'll choke on your own ego and your own. I think that you know the old phrase that the Roman conquerors would come back to Rome, they would hire a slave when they're going through the tumultuous crowd and they're being worshiped. And the slave was, was asked to do one thing as he held the wreath over the conqueror whisper in his ear. When the crowd is screaming, the slave would, would constantly say, it's only fleeting. It's only fleeting. It's only fleeting. This administration is only fleeting. It's only fleeting. It's only fleeting.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Do you think they know that?

[Martin Sheen]

Oh, they got to know it. No, really, because there's no heroes around them to remind them. They think that they're winning.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Yeah.

[Martin Sheen]

And they seem to, at a bullfight, thinks he's winning. They think they're winning.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

But they also act like they think it's forever. And that's the problem. And law firms act like it's forever, which is why they abandon their principles. And universities seem to think, well, maybe this is forever. We'll capitulate to something that is against everything literally in our creed. And people seem to capitulate like they think it's forever. But I agree with you. It's, that's more likely than not fleeting.

[Martin Sheen]

It's only fleeting. It's only fleeting. It's only. This is only fleeting. You and I are only fleeting. All of you are only fleeting.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

What do you think is brewing in Hollywood? It feels like in the beginning, not much. Right. Well, but why? Why? I mean, artists have typically seen it as existential to have the first amendment imperiled, to have artistry, control. And why do you think Hollywood has been slow to step in?

[Martin Sheen]

I don't really feel a part of Hollywood, frankly. And that's okay. I didn't start out as a part of Hollywood and I won't end up a part of Hollywood unless I get buried in the forever Hollywood cemetery. But I've never felt a part of Hollywood. I came to New York, I was here for 10 years and did mostly theater. And I only went to the west coast because you could make a living there. You know, theater didn't pay for the rent very often, but it nourished you and you had to be in love with the craft and the energy and the literature. The theater is literature to begin with. And so that's what nourished us. And it still nourishes people. But Hollywood is so, it's so multi leveled. You know, a young person, if you have certain energy, a certain talent, you can go as far as, you know they'll let you or you choose. I don't know what it is. I've never ever felt a part of Hollywood.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Really?

[Martin Sheen]

Yeah. I always felt a bit embarrassed when they called me a Hollywood actor. I always thought I was a Broadway star, for heaven's sakes.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

You are, you are. Can you talk a little bit about your relationship with Aaron Sorkin, who wrote Jed Bartlett, but who also wrote the American President? And I think when you see in President Clinton or President Obama a reflection or relationship to the fictional presidents, you feel different about your country than when you see someone who said, grab him in the. You know what I mean? You know, there's no relationship between this current president and anything that's ever been fictionalized by Aaron Sorkin. So where does that come from?

[Martin Sheen]

Well, Aaron is a super patriot with a brilliant mind and a, a fair heart. You know, he, he never cast a Republican as an enemy. They were the loyal opposition if the Democrats were in power and then vice versa. You know, we grew up with Eisenhower. He was like a grandfather, you know, and here comes John Kennedy like a father, you know, and so we were available to, to that kind of leadership, particularly my generation was Kennedy. I wasn't even old enough to vote for him when he won his election because at that time you had to be 21. But Aaron had that sense of. He even said it openly in the American President, of an unabashed love of country. Not politics or party per se, but of country, of the possibility of it, of the magic of it, of the generosity, the sense of its humanity. Everybody had a stake in the matter. Everybody had an opinion and it mattered and an influence, starting with your parents, you know.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Right.

[Martin Sheen]

So we stood to salute the flag. It was. It was a joy, a pleasure. It wasn't. We didn't feel like it was an obligation. I was at the end of World War II as a boy, but we remembered a lot of it, you know, and what it did to the country and how we began to love what we stood for, where we came from, where we could take it, you know, and it took all of us to go to where we wanted to go, but we could go anywhere we wanted.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Do you think we are still capable of that? Of being united?

[Martin Sheen]

Yeah, we still are. There is so much courage. There's so many lights. It's never that dark ever. If you, no matter where you walk into that darkness. And I promise you that, as I've said it before, that the opposition, they've chosen to be the opposition, we have not made them an enemy that they've chosen to be in opposition. They admire courage, they admire a sense of you. They admire all the things that are human. They're just not permitted to show it. I think I said before, you know, they're having them wear the mask in partly so that they don't show their emotion because they're not proud of what they're doing most of the time, particularly when they're bullies, you know, so that's not who we are. That's who they think they are at this time.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

My conversation with Martin Sheen continues right after this. We will be right back. Mazda.

[Martin Sheen]

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[Martin Sheen]

Aaron Sorkin, get back to him. Was so inspiring and so right on about the country, why we loved it so much. Even when we hated it, we loved it. That's the way we felt about it. Because it belonged to us. It was ours. We didn't give it over to anybody. It was not theirs to decide. It was us, the people. And it still is. And Aaron would, you know, when I first started the show, I would debate him my lines. Aaron, I would never say this. He said, no, I understand that. And he said, now I want to say this. All right, fine. What about this? You okay with this? Well, I think maybe not. All right, go. We would negotiate what I would say, what I wouldn't say. Gradually, I learned that when I did it my way, it was Martin and it was okay. When I did it his way, it was Bartlett and it was wonderful.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

I love that. I love that. I think that people feel nostalgic and again, for. Right. Do you feel that? Do you feel.

[Martin Sheen]

Very much so.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Do you feel like people? Because I think it's an iconic show. I work in politics because of watching C.J. craig. I wanted to be C.J. craig. And I think that when things feel off there, people crave that character, that show even more.

[Martin Sheen]

Well, remember we had Lawrence o'. Donnell.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Well, I think we have Lawrence o'.

[Martin Sheen]

Donnell.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Is he in the building? I don't know. Maybe we'll see him.

[Martin Sheen]

We had the great Lawrence o'. Donnell.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

You asked.

[Martin Sheen]

I heard my name. God bless. Thank you. Thank you so much. Take this. Here.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

No, no, you take that.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

No, no.

[Dr. Sarah Rahal]

Yeah.

[Martin Sheen]

No, you're not. You arrived just in time.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Oh, you know, we. We at the West Wing, where, as a writer.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Can you remind everybody what. Because I. I Googled. You were an executive producer. You were a writer.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

A lot of people were executive producers. Yeah.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Most famous episode you wrote. Right. Can you just give us your website?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I wrote a bunch of them in the later years especially. But I was there from the very beginning, beginning with episode two, because Aaron wrote the pilot alone, and you guys did it without any writing stuff. But then we came in for that first. We met at the first table read of episode two, and then I was there right through to the end of the show. And what I'm so thrilled about you experiencing here today with this guy is that you're getting a feeling that I've never really been able to explain to people about what it was like. Like to go to work with him every day, you know, to be in the presence of this generosity and grace and goodness and wisdom every day. We had a leader.

[Martin Sheen]

You know, we had a leader on that.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

That was the leader you saw on the show. And you also get to understand something that I've tried to explain to people. People in show business get it. But it's that the thing I dislike the most about my show is that I'm the one on tv. And what's so difficult for me about that is that, yes, I write those scripts that I say on tv, but I wrote scripts for him. I wrote scripts and handed them to him and to Alison Janney and to Brad Whitford and to so many great actors. Alan Alden, Jimmy Smith. And so for me to write a script and then do it for you is a sacrilege after having done it. Imagine 10pm okay, the writing staff say, stays the same, and he comes out, okay. That's a better show.

[Martin Sheen]

That's totally, totally not true to begin with. And for some of you who have not watched the show or don't know, he actually played my father in one episode. But I. I wasn't fortunate enough to be the actor at the time. They got a younger version of me, and they had an argument in the scene, and he had to smack him. He nearly knocked the kid out. So I felt he was trying to get back at me. Everything he said about me is a reflection of himself. We had an authenticity that was not possible without Lawrence o', Donnell, not just his work with Senator Moynihan. Here in New York, but he understood, understood the Senate and the House. He understood the executive branch and all the divisions that are supposed to exist between them. And he brought that with. And he brings it every night but Friday, incidentally.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

How do I get that?

[Martin Sheen]

Never mind. That's all right.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Can I ask both of you a question about the enduring. This is what we were starting to talk about. It's not just the enduring connection that I think fans have to the West Wing. It's almost in the, in the absence of something that everyone wants their kids to emulate. And I'm not even sure a MAGA family wants their kids to emulate Donald Trump. I'm not sure about that, but I don't think so. His language and his bullying and his conduct online alone. What is it about the show in these moments that you think endures?

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

I do think the thing that has a value right now, and this is, I learned from, from the audience, you know, because when we were doing it, you know, it's this mad struggle to get the script done on time, and we never got it done on time. And now I think it, it has a new importance. And a friend of mine told me recently that he, when he first saw the show, he, he wasn't a big fan because he thought it was maybe a little too naive and didn't really get all of the sharp elbow stuff that happens in a White House. But now he's watching it with his two sons, 14 years old and 16 years old, both of whom, when you think about when they started to pay attention to a president, have had Donald Trump in their lives as president for their entire awareness of the presidency. And they need him.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Martin Sheen]

Well, it's not. No, no, it's not me. I'm too old. They need Bartlett. But the credibility that Lawrence brought to the show every single time was impeccable. Nobody could challenge his knowledge and his, his love of the process, his love of the US Senate, particularly. We heard you talking about it the other night when you were interviewing Senator Whitehouse and so forth. But the love of the Senate and the process of how it works and on all the other branches as well, that credibility was the foundation that kept us afloat, it kept us above because we knew what we were doing was legal, was honest and was also the truth. But it was equally entertaining because a lot of people didn't know how things actually work in politics. But this gentleman knew. And the, the only. I wouldn't say criticism of shows, but I always say program. I never want to say show because show is something that goes on in the Oval program is what goes on at msnbc.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Okay, Lawrence, I'm so glad you came out here with us.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

There's only one person who could get me up at this hour on a Saturday morning.

[Martin Sheen]

Well, it's my fault.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

We'll hear about it later. Thank you, all of you. I'm so happy that you're all here. I'm so happy you got to see Martin Sheen. So happy you had a.

[Martin Sheen]

And Lawrence o'.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Donnell.

[Martin Sheen]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

Thank you guys. Thank you.

[Martin Sheen]

Thank you.

[Lawrence O'Donnell]

By the Martin really had no idea that I was going to be here. Had no idea.

[Podcast Host (MSNBC Best People Host)]

I almost blew it too because we were talking about you and yeah, anyway, you were here for something special with them. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to the Best People. You can subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this another MSNBC podcast ad, free. As a subscriber, you'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. All episodes of the podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit msnbc.com the best people the Best People is produced by Vicki Vergelina and Senior Producer Lisa Ferri. Our Associate producer is Rana Shahbazi and we had additional production support this week from Ann Gimble. Our Audio Engineer is Bob Mallory and Katie Lau is our Senior Production Manager. Bryson Barnes is the Head of Audio production, Pat Berkey is the Senior Executive Producer of Deadline White House, Brad Gold is the Executive Producer of Content Strategy, Aisha Turner is the Executive Producer of Audio and Madeline Herringer is the Senior Vice President in charge of audio, digital and long form. Search for the Best People wherever you get your podcast and be sure to follow the series.

[Martin Sheen]

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[Lawrence O'Donnell]

Every Mazda SUV offers you an elevated.

[Martin Sheen]

Driving experience and refined performance. Discover it at your local Mazda dealer today.