Sue Gordon: Trump’s Approach to Intel is “Breathtakingly Reckless"

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Best People with Nicolle Wallace

Episode: Sue Gordon: Trump’s Approach to Intel is “Breathtakingly Reckless"
Date: July 27, 2026
Guests: Sue Gordon (Former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence)

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Overview

This episode features Nicolle Wallace in conversation with Sue Gordon, a highly-respected career intelligence official and former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence (DNI). Together, they discuss the fragile state of the U.S. intelligence community under Donald Trump, the dangers of politicizing intelligence, the ripple effect of leadership failures, and the importance of speaking truth to power—regardless of personal risk. The conversation is deeply candid, blending national security insights, Gordon’s stoic commitment to country, and her unique perspective as someone fighting for her health while also fighting for American institutions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump's Reckless Approach to Intelligence

• Hobson’s Choice for Intelligence Officers
  Sue Gordon describes the dilemma faced by intelligence officials under Trump:

  "You tell him everything and he doesn't understand the impact of it, and then he shares it disproportionately or doesn't protect it. ...To not understand that and then be casual with it is just breathtakingly reckless in the case of the President." (Sue Gordon, 01:00)

• Casual Endangerment
  Trump's handling of classified information exposes allies, methods, and lives, undermining relationships and operational capacity.

2. Leadership and the Erosion of Standards

• Loss of Institutional Backbone
  Gordon argues that effective intelligence relies on leaders who own the truth—even if inconvenient:

  "The strength of the intelligence community is in the women and men; it does matter how they're led, the standard that's set, the backs that are had..." (Sue Gordon, 05:07) The appointment of leaders without necessary experience, or who serve the president over the nation, degrades the unique value of U.S. intelligence.

• The Danger of “Truth to Power” Being Subverted
  The only job of intelligence, says Gordon, is to bring inconvenient truth to decision-makers. Anything less is institutional failure.

3. Intelligence in the Trump White House

• Trump’s Lack of Engagement with Intelligence

  "It was not my experience that he read much...Did he have great foundation of the global picture, the history that preceded that moment, and a willingness to listen to what the potential second and third order effects were? I did not experience him having that." (Sue Gordon, 06:45)

• The Mar-a-Lago Documents & Unprecedented Risk
  Gordon discusses the unprecedented risk posed by Trump’s retention of sensitive materials, and the broader implications for trust with international partners.

4. The Price of Truth and the Workforce's Dilemma

• The System Breaks With a Reckless President
  Intelligence officers struggled with whether to withhold information from Trump; doing so would be a betrayal of their duty, but his irresponsibility undermined every level of decision-making.

  "If he is believable that no one told him that the Strait of Hormuz would be closed, it is almost beyond imagining how intelligence has value and our system can work if the person at the top of it who has the most power feels the least responsibility." (Sue Gordon, 09:43)

• Fearless Truth-Telling, Even When Uncomfortable

  "I've walked into rooms with leaders whose shoulders slump when I walk in the room because they know I'm about to steal their decision space with the truth, because that's what we do." (Sue Gordon, 12:01)

5. Jay Clayton and the Peril of Political Appointments

• A significant segment critiques nominee Jay Clayton’s refusal to acknowledge Biden’s 2020 victory and the chilling effect this has on intelligence staff:

  "The only job, the only job of the intelligence community is truth to power. All it is...He had to know this question was coming...and that was what he came up with for this position. I don't want to say it, but I'm going to. You might as well shut down the community..." (Sue Gordon, 14:16)

• The Impact on IC Rank-and-File
  Clayton’s weakness, in Gordon’s view, sets an example that self-censorship is valuable, fracturing the integrity required of intelligence:

  "Now wandering in the halls every single day, you have people deciding how much they can say rather than saying what needs to be said." (Sue Gordon, 16:47)

6. Consequences for American Security

• The episode links Trump’s attacks on intelligence and the resulting atmosphere of fear and self-editing with greater national vulnerabilities:

  "It diverts from the primary mission, which is to run down every lead about potential threats to America." (Nicolle Wallace, 18:25)

• Gordon warns that in an era of global instability, America is undermining its most essential lines of defense.

7. Weaponizing Mistrust Against Institutions

• Trump’s blaming of national defeat on the intelligence community instead of contemplating simpler campaign mistakes is highlighted as illogical and corrosive.

  "No, the 2020 election was not stolen. Joe Biden won the election...The problem with what he's doing is he's making America, Americans not believe in us. The damage that that does is so much more profound than the damage to any of the institutions." (Sue Gordon, 24:17)

8. Why Intelligence Threatens Trump

• Intelligence, Gordon argues, presents an unchangeable reality—one that cannot be manipulated for personal gain:

  "I think it threatens him because he can't change, that it just exists. And, man, that is hard to manipulate." (Sue Gordon, 27:52)

9. Global Fallout and "Pesky Sovereignty"

• Allies are forced to “prepare for a world where I don’t have to rely on [the U.S.],” weakening U.S. global influence.

  "You're seeing the rise of what I'll call pesky sovereignty, where these nations are saying, I may need them still, but I will start to prepare myself for a world where I don't have to rely on them." (Sue Gordon, 31:47)

• Short-term uncertainty benefits autocracies, while democracies flounder amidst disarray.

10. Persistent Myths and Internal Contradictions

• The episode spotlights a rare MAGA advisor, John Solomon, admitting that “there is zero evidence that a foreign power flipped a vote in 2020.” Gordon celebrates this moment:

  "Not only is the intelligence clear, but the determination that there was nothing that happened goes far beyond the intelligence community..." (Sue Gordon, 35:39)

11. On Iran, War, and Presidential Accountability

• Gordon expresses deep anguish over Trump’s cavalier admissions about potential war crimes and lack of operational recalibration:

  "I have children who served, who volunteered to serve, and served in harm's way. What are we conducting these operations for?" (Sue Gordon, 38:22)

12. Standing Alone, Speaking Out, and Institutional Loyalty

• Gordon is candid about her refusal to self-censor, feelings of being cast aside by both Republican and Democratic administrations, and the need to value institutional expertise over party loyalty:

  "Can we really afford to be throwing away half of our institutional talent every time we have an election because of the misperception that people who serve their country...are not beholden to anyone?" (Sue Gordon, 55:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Approach to Intelligence:

  "To not understand that and then be casual with it is just breathtakingly reckless in the case of the President." (Sue Gordon, 01:00)

• On Owning the Truth:

  "The only job of the intelligence community is truth to power. All it is." (Sue Gordon, 14:16)

• On Institutional Erosion:

  "You're seeing that erosion of the uniqueness and contribution of the intelligence community. The women and men are still fighting really hard, but the contribution is all dependent on its ability to be presented, defended and heard." (Sue Gordon, 05:07)

• On Why Intelligence Threatens Trump:

  "I think it threatens him because he can't change, that it just exists. And, man, that is hard to manipulate." (Sue Gordon, 27:52)

• On Serving, Even When the Leadership is Broken:

  "When President Trump was elected the second time, one of the things I did is I called a bunch of my friends, I said, if he could ask you to serve. Serve." (Sue Gordon, 55:09)

• On Living Fearlessly:

  "What can anyone do to me, Nicole? I mean, seriously, I lost my career. Who cares? And I'm still here." (Sue Gordon, 50:28)

• On the Lasting Value of Integrity:

  "If you work hard and do good things, you can live with yourself. And that gives you one more day." (Sue Gordon, 48:21)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:00 – 02:00: Sue Gordon’s “Hobson’s choice” and Trump as a reckless intelligence consumer
• 03:25 – 05:07: Gordon’s guiding philosophy—from confirmation to resignation
• 06:45: Trump’s lack of engagement with intelligence, preference for briefings, and lack of global/historical perspective
• 08:22 – 09:43: Mar-a-Lago documents, the impossible choices for briefers, and the breakdown of institutional integrity
• 14:16: Disqualification of Jay Clayton; the core purpose of intelligence
• 16:47: Dangers of self-censorship within the intelligence community
• 24:17: On Trump’s stolen election lies, the real impact on American trust
• 27:52: Why intelligence is a threat to “preferred narratives”
• 31:47: Global re-alignment—rise of “pesky sovereignty”
• 35:39: John Solomon’s admission of no foreign interference—significance for public trust
• 38:22: Gordon’s personal stake in national security decisions (“What are we conducting these operations for?”)
• 50:28: Gordon on her fight for health and country—living fearlessly
• 55:09 – 55:49: On encouraging public service even under adversity; the problem of dismissing institutional memory with each new administration

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Tone & Language

The exchange is candid, unsparing, and deeply personal—tempered by Gordon’s professed love for America and searing honesty about institutional failures. Nicolle Wallace blends journalistic skepticism with empathy, positioning Gordon both as an expert and a moral lodestar. The tone is urgent but not despairing, encouraging principled action even in dark times.

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Useful For

• Anyone seeking to understand the real stakes of politicizing intelligence
• Listeners interested in the day-to-day realities faced by intelligence professionals
• Policy observers tracking the state of American democracy and security in the Trump era
• Those seeking inspiration from public servants driven by principle

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Transcript

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

This isn't the end of a fight. It's the start of one. Lioness, the critically acclaimed original series from Taylor Sheridan, returns August 2nd only on Paramount. In the new season, hidden networks, foreign operatives and personal betrayals collide while Joe walks the line between duty and family. Don't miss Lioness, starring Zoe Saldana, Michael Kelly. With Morgan Freeman and Nicole Kidman. Streaming August 2nd only on Paramount.

Watch Disclosure Day at home now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you, would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg, from a screenplay by David Koepp, starring Emily Blunt, Josh o', Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson and Colman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required. Also in theaters.

[Sue Gordon]

It's kind of a Hobson's Choice. You tell him everything and he doesn't understand the impact of it, and then he shares it disproportionately or doesn't protect it. And again, it's not just the information. It's about the methodology by which you got it and the humans that actually put their lives at stake, whether there are our people or our allies and partners. People. I mean, to not understand that and then be casual with it is just breathtakingly reckless in the case of the president.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Hi there, everyone. Welcome to the Best People podcast. To believe Donald Trump's biggest of all big lies, that the 2020 election was rigged against him, you would have to accept that his administration and his administration only botched the one election that took place on his watch, that his team, including some of the very same people who serve in his second term as president, messed it all up. And in his telling, somehow on purpose, the big lie is incoherent, illogical, and deeply insulting to the intelligence of the members of Trump's own political base. But it's also dangerous. And Donald Trump now is making clear that he intends to intervene in the midterms, which at this point don't look like they're going to go his way. So to help us break down all of this, both the audacity of the lie, the danger it brings us, is our dear friend Sue Gordon. She spent her life as a public servant serving our country. She served presidents in the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. She resigned as one of the top intelligence officials in our country, where she was the Deputy DNI from 2017 to 2019. And she left with honor. She left with truth. She left with her reputation intact. And she left with an important message for Donald Trump that I think it's worth listening to today. So without any further ado, this is the best people. And this is my dear friend, Sue Gordon. Hi, friend.

[Sue Gordon]

Hey, Nicole, how are you?

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

I went back and read your resignation letter and reminded myself of the circumstances of your departure because you were one of those not even rare birds like unicorns who served with honor and integrity, told Donald Trump the truth and he liked you for a while, while you were there. How did you pull that off?

[Sue Gordon]

You know, I think for me, it kind of was encapsulated in the opening of my confirmation hearing. And I remember these words that I wrote and that I said, and I think I've always tried to keep it in mind. And that is, it said, simply put, I love America. I love being part of the process that our founders envisioned and to serve my turn in their cause. And so I think every single day of my federal career, and quite frankly, to this day, I am for America. And that is a really pretty simple, not simplistic, but pretty simple North Star for me. And so when I was in the government, I did my job. When I was clearly going to be forced out, I made a choice about how I wanted to leave so that I left my country and my community not in shambles over my departure, but but with the reminder of who they were. So, I don't know, maybe I lucked into it or maybe I just have been gifted a clarity of what my purpose is.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

When you left Adam Schiff, and I think some Republicans as well, I'm paraphrasing now, but the sum of all of their warnings about your departure was that you would leave a gaping hole in the leadership ranks of the intelligence community that Donald Trump would fill in ways that wouldn't be good for the intelligence community. Has that transpired?

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah, I think leadership matters, and I hope I say that in a way that no one thinks that I think I'm special. But even though the strength of the intelligence community is in the women and men, it does matter how they're led, the standard that's set, the backs that are had, and the reason why the intelligence community, for the most part chooses leaders that have a background in intelligence, particularly in that position, is because it is a unique discipline that is disproportionately dependent on seeing the truth. Being ruthless about your presentation, being willing to be inconvenient, and then still participating in the decision making process. And that just, it takes some experience and it takes some courage. And this takes some understanding of what the real job is, to be able to pull that off day after day. And so what happens when you put in leaders that don't understand that or don't have that background, or then worse, as we see now, who seem to be driven to please a person rather than serve a nation? I think you're seeing that erosion of the uniqueness and the contribution of the intelligence community. The women and men are still fighting really hard, but the contribution is all dependent on its ability to be presented, defended and heard. Not in its correctness or incorrectness, but the fact that it is.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Does Donald Trump consume intelligence on a regular basis or did he when you were there?

[Sue Gordon]

It was not my experience that he read much, and we had some really good briefers. So remember, when you walk into the Oval Office, your job is to really make sure that what you need to say gets heard. And so we had really good briefers that were good about not leaving the room until we were convinced that he had heard what we had to say. But did he have a great foundation of the global picture, the history that preceded that moment, and a willingness to listen to what the potential second and third order effects were? I did not experience him having that. And I think you can then fast forward to you and I have talked about the Iran war. I think the way we went into the Iran war, the way it's been affected and what we're seeing is a perfect example of all these things were knowable.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Right?

[Sue Gordon]

Everything that's happened was knowable.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

And I guess before we get to Iran, I want to stop at the Mar A Lago documents because to me, a president for whom the buck stops with him is sort of the last person you'd think of to take national defense information where if it was disclosed, it could endanger the lives of intelligence professionals. I understand that it is your view that the president is sort of the apex client and it is your job to brief him and give him the information, however he takes it in. But I wonder if you think that he either never really understood intelligence or didn't care about the people who gather it.

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah, I think it's an epic fail in both fronts. And it's kind of a Hobson's choice. You tell him everything and he doesn't understand the impact of it, and then he shares it disproportionately or doesn't protect it. And again, it's not just the information. It's about the methodology by which you got it and the humans that actually put their lives stake whether There are our people or our allies and partners. People. I mean, to not understand that and then be casual with it is just breathtakingly reckless. In the case of the President, and because he can talk to everyone, because the law allows it, but the reality should preclude it so in that direction, it's awful. And we see that effect. We see that effect whether it is allies and partners who are not able to do the things they could force before because we exposed it by allowing our information to get out there, or in lives that are lost or in people that won't work with us anymore, and that makes us weaker. But it's bad on the other side, because if you choose not to share all that information, right. Can you imagine me saying, even though I have this information, I'm not gonna share it with the President of the United States? It's making the most consequential decisions.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Did you ever do that? Did you ever want something back from him? Did you ever want to. Were you ever scared to tell him something?

[Sue Gordon]

I was never scared to tell him anything. I was. Because that was responsibility, and because we didn't see this future, then, we really did believe that we were trying to make him understand. I mean, listen, details are always withheld if they're not germane to the point you're trying to make, but never a conclusion that was important. So you kind of see both sides, both in this situation. When the President is not responsible in his actions, either in sharing or not sharing, it breaks the whole system. How do you expect somebody below that to know how to adjudicate? Oh, should I tell him everything or I'm going to keep something away? It breaks. And so you're seeing that failure. Now, if he is believable that no one told him that the Strait of Hormuz would be closed, it is almost beyond imagining how intelligence has value and our system can work if the person at the top of it who has the most power feels the least responsibility.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Has he broken intelligence?

[Sue Gordon]

I think it is a. In all our institutions, and intelligence is no different. We've lost so much talent. There's so much stress inside the system that I think it's probably not as robust as it was. But the women and men that are still there are fighting really hard and pulling really hard. And I know there are a lot of leaders that are trying to keep their eyes in the boat. But to your question, Nicole, it does matter whether intelligence is able to remember that its only job is to see what is rather than what is preferred, and to be willing to be massively inconvenient in the retelling of that. And if that doesn't happen, then I would say intelligence has lost its value because that's its role.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

So telling the truth, even when it's uncomfortable, even when the top client, the President, doesn't like the answer.

[Sue Gordon]

I've walked into rooms with leaders whose shoulders slump when I walk in the room because they know I'm about to steal their decision space with the truth, because that's what we do. Because policy doesn't require the decision maker to decide in our favor or not. But our system works because you have to know the whole picture, and we bring an important part of the picture.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

You never weighed in on a policy choice, right? You just. Your job was to arm the policymaker with the truth, the best truth as could be deduced by the best intelligence that the United States of America and all of our agencies and all of our allies could gather. Right? I'm trying to establish this because I'm trying under to understand, excuse my language, but what the fuck the workforce does with Jay Clayton, who can't say the word W o n about who won in 2020. Let me show you this clip that I think will live forever. Just this one moment, this one inability to state a demonstrable truth to me is one of the most ominous signs of how he's going to lead the intelligence community when he's confirmed as he's likely to be.

[Jay Clayton]

Who won the 2020 election?

[Sue Gordon]

You know, I'm not. I'm not going to do this with you.

[Jay Clayton]

Who won the 2020 election?

[Sue Gordon]

Like I said, I'm not. I'm not going to get into that with you.

[Jay Clayton]

Who won the 20 election?

[Sue Gordon]

We can keep doing this.

[Jay Clayton]

It's a simple question, Mr. Clayton, and I've asked. Who won the 2020 presidential election?

[Sue Gordon]

I've answered it.

[Jay Clayton]

Then answer the question. Who won the 2020 election?

[Sue Gordon]

I have answered the question.

[Jay Clayton]

Answer it. What is your answer?

[Sue Gordon]

I've given you my answer.

[Jay Clayton]

What is your answer? You refuse to answer a basic question about who won a presidential election, but you asked to lead America's intelligence community, Sue.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

I know what our allies will think. They'll feel sorry for him because they are, I think, hardwired to root for America, the America we know and love. But I think our adversaries are licking their chops. This isn't someone strong. This isn't someone brave, and this isn't someone in the vein of Sue Gordon.

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah, I was watching that live, Nicole. My PTSD recurs at different times, and that was one of it. That was heartbreaking to me. I believe it is 100% disqualifying. 100%. And again, I was heartened by Jay Clayton's nomination because I think he has a lot of experiences that could be good in that role. But the only job, the only job of the intelligence community is truth to power. All it is. And you can look at failures, times when we've been wrong, all that kind of stuff, but there's a difference between error and malfeasance. He had to know this question was coming. It's been the question that everyone's been asked, and I'm glad they keep putting it forward. And that was what he came up with for this position. I don't want to say it, but I'm going to. You might as well shut down the community because now how can we have any confidence, especially on the backs of what happened under Director Gabbard, where we know that inconvenient assessments like the one of Venezuela people lose their jobs over because it wasn't convenient. You've lived through that. You're seeing what happens when you don't have an intelligence community and a state and a diplomatic community that is in full fighting trim. And then he comes in and says that that is so weak ass.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Yeah.

[Sue Gordon]

What he really needed to say was Joe Biden won and pays your money and takes your chances, and then go in to the inevitable meeting where he's going to be called in and say, there was no other answer I can give than to lead this intelligence community as you need it to be led. That's 100% all he had to do. And you might even feel good rolling your dice on that because you know that the President can't afford another failure.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

I have this theory, and it's uninformed. It's just a gut. I actually think Trump would have respected him more, 100%. I think Trump likes the weakness. I think he demands the loyalty. But I think there is a little glitch in his wiring, whatever it is, where I don't think that made him like Jay Clayton more. I think that made him respect him

[Sue Gordon]

less, a little bit. Going back to the Mar A Lago conversation, the problem is now you've set a standard. Let's say he gets confirmed. Now you've set a standard. And now wandering in the halls every single day, you have people deciding how much they can say rather than saying what needs to be said. And what's really interesting about the intelligence community, and I know this is it comes across over and over again. I just love this community is it is actually an inverse hierarchy. When it's successful, it's because we know the expertise is in the people who do the work. And if you go to a briefing from the intelligence community, usually you'll be surprised that it's a junior person giving the briefing, not a senior person. Because that's what the organization respects is the craft. And so when now you have people saying, I guess I gotta filter it through a whole bunch of layers of leadership who are gonna have to determine whether it's gonna be successful or how it's gonna be received or what are gonna do. And, and listen, we felt some of this during my tenure too, but we still had people in place that are like, no, I'll take the hit, it's okay. So to now bring in a leader that has just so publicly demonstrated that he must say the party line rather than say what is well known. How is that going to play for all those people that are just trying to do their job for America and now they have to decide whether they need to protect themselves?

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Yeah, it's this self editing. I mean, look, it's not just the egregious things, right, where you're asked to manufacture evidence, it's a million tiny things. It's an intuition that leads you to open a line of investigation or to send a cable to allies, or to coordinate with other intelligence agencies about what they're picking up on other methods of intel that to me exposes the United States of America to the greatest threat of something happening here. And I think people more informed than me say this since 9, 11, just talk about how it diverts from the primary mission, which is to sort of, I don't know the technical term, but run down every lead about potential threats to America.

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah, I mean, just, you know, let's top line it at a moment when the world is rewiring that sometime a few years ago the world completely changed, except when we woke up it looked the same. It's just nothing we had done before worked. When technology is changing, when alliances are changing, when economics are changing, where capital is changing, where power is shifting, that period of massive uncertainty in which we are existing that we see every day, you are going to undermine an institution with a craft that is not passe, but rather allows you, especially with the advent of all the data that exists and the capability to do something with that data to give you the best, most clear eyed view of the situation you're facing. How do you square those two that you do it now. Now when we understand so very little about how this world is operating and that you have invested 70 plus years in the capability to do just that. A capability which has more often than not save not only us, but free and open societies from demise. And I've never seen more pressure than I see now and more need for clarity. And you're undermining our best capability, even if that capability still has distance to travel.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

We're going to take a break right here. Much more of my conversation with former Principal, Deputy Director, Director of National Intelligence, our dear friend Sue Gordon on the other side. Stay with us.

This isn't the end of a fight. It's the start of one. Lioness, the critically acclaimed original series from Taylor Sheridan, returns August 2nd only on Paramount. In the new season, hidden networks, foreign operatives and personal betrayals collide while Jo walks the line between duty and family. Don't miss Lioness. Starring Zoe Saldana, Michael Kelly. With Morgan Freeman and Nicole Kidman. Streaming August 2nd only on Paramount.

Plus watch Disclosure Day at home now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you, would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg for from a screenplay by David Koepp starring Emily Blunt, Josh o', Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson and Colman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required. Also in theaters. 91% of dog parents say their pup is an important member of the family. 40% would even save their dog over a human stranger. Safe to say people are obsessed and if anyone gets being dog obsessed, it's Ollie. They deliver fresh human grade food in five drool worthy flavors so your pup can live their best life too. The recipes are developed by real chefs with gut friendly ingredients that support digestion, energy, skin health and even better poops. You could say that Ollie feeds the obsession. My two dogs, Honey and Poppy are the pickiest eaters in my household. They're fussier than my kids, which means more human food as dog food toppings on their kibble than the kids get at the frozen yogurt shop. But nothing gets them more excited than when they take out a packet of Ollie from the fridge and put it in their bowls in the morning. So head to ollie.com bestpeople. Tell them all about your dog and use the code Best People to get 70% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, it's risk free with their obsession guarantee that's O l l I e.com bestpeople and enter the code bestpeople to get 70% off your first box. What does it do to the intelligence community when the lie he tells to justify a defeat? And he could tell a lot of lies. I worked in campaigns. You could blame your ad team, you could blame your pollsters, you could blame the schedule, you could blame Covid. You could blame. I mean, he's decided to blame the intelligence community specifically and broadly and publicly. And I wonder. And his lie goes something like this. When Obama ran the government, I won. And that was a real win. In 2024, when Joe Biden ran the government, I won. And that was a good one. But when I ran the government, when all the people I appointed were in charge of protecting the United States of America in our elections, some sort of inside job happened and I lost. I mean, is that the story he's saying and is that the blame he's placing on the intelligence community?

[Sue Gordon]

Well, there's. When you say that, clearly, there's no logical flow to it. You know, the obvious. Right. So, no, some, you know, oh, my God. And two, I just have to say it. No, the 2020 election was not stolen. Joe Biden won the election. It was a scary moment for this nation when we realized what was happening with our adversaries and competitors and what they were trying to do to influence it. But, man, the work that was done then and since then has been really quite remarkable. You know, everything is undermining the intelligence community. The craft is hard enough, but these are real humans with real lives, and they live every day because intelligence is never about an equation. My God, if you wait till you're certain the advantage is gone. So every single day, these women and men are working to be able to acquire the information that allows us to make an assessment that they know can be turned around with one piece of data, and yet still they provide it so that we have advantage to then say that those people who may make error, we could go through history and talk about errors and that, but are somehow not for America and then would do anything to harm it that are out there harming a president. The same thing that makes them in peril of too often pandering to a president is the one thing, one thing that they would never do, which is they are in such service to this nation and even to the president, that the idea that the president is insane, that they're trying to do something to this country or to him that is un American, you can't believe it. And so I'm not as worried about the women in the intelligence community because I'm so proud of them and because I believe in them and because there are still people supporting them. But let me tell you who I am worried about the American people. I've been out how many years now, but I go on TV and I'll say something that I think is about the issue about national security. And you would not believe what shows up in social media or in my inbox. I am told that they know where I live. I am called horrible personal things. So my problem is not that social media is a perfect reflection of America, but the problem with what he's doing is he's making America, Americans not believe in us. The damage that that does is so much more profound than the damage to any of the institutions. And so, yeah, I worry about my former colleagues, but I think we gotta bounce up bigger and say the aggregate effect of this on my favorite humans, which are our citizens, to make them believe that they can't trust us. And I don't know how you surge trust in a crisis, Nicole. I don't know how you do that.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Well, I mean, to your point, it's a wound that Trump has created on purpose against institutions that threaten him. And I wonder if you could just not simplistically, but simply explain why you think intelligence threatens Trump.

[Sue Gordon]

Because this culture born of the Cold War, where the threat was so obvious and we were having our hats handed to us, is so steeply ingrained in the fabric of the community that for all the pressure on it, it keeps on saying what is. And in fact, some of the things that have happened when that reality that they try and portray is misused, now you're seeing it get more out in the world, and. And there are more and more people who can put other pieces of information together to show that same truth. There are commercial satellites that show the same images that. I think it threatens him because he can't change, that it just exists. And, man, that is hard to manipulate. What he counts on is the integrity of the institution that don't go running out and undermining him in the same way. You know, you read my resignation letter, and that's what I was trying to do. I wanted to bolster my community to keep on being who it was. He doesn't seem to have been successful in stopping them from their jobs, but he is working hard to making it harder for them to be human and do their jobs, how they have to make choices about their lives. Right. How many of my Colleagues have, for no apparent reason, lost their security clearances and their livelihoods over a mistruth.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Right.

[Sue Gordon]

And not people like me, that it doesn't really matter because, you know, I'm kind of in bonus time. But I'm talking about people who are still trying to figure out how they're going to get their kids through school. And if you see that happening to people and you're still in the community, I don't know, what do you do? It's really easy to say, keep on doing your job. I want to show them some grace that they have to make some choices for themselves about how much they do. And again, I believe in them. But it does potentially erode the value that intelligence can provide to the security of our nation and free and open societies. And again, I love this country. But one of the things I love about is, as we go, the free world tends to go. Our partners and allies require us, need us to be big and beefy and a beacon. And if we start appearing like we're just part of the same grift, then it is harder for them, just like it's harder for an individual in the community to stand up and be big and beefy and integrous.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

What impact does it have on our relationships and our standing around the world for the President of the United States to have his most profitable year as our country's president, to make $2 billion in 14 months?

[Sue Gordon]

I think they're kind of momentarily in a quandary. They need us. We are still a nation of laws. Doing business with us is still better. We do bring remarkable capability that we're putting on display in Iran right now. But we have remarkable. And so they need us.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Right?

[Sue Gordon]

And so they can't go so far as to turn away. Nor, by the way, should we be so egotistical that we think we don't require them, we do so. I hate that piece, too. But they're stuck because they need us and because aligning with us is better for them. More trustworthy. Our resources, our partnership is better for them. But when I talk about rewiring, you're seeing it. You're seeing the rise of what I'll call pesky sovereignty, where these nations are saying, I may need them still, but I will start to prepare myself for a world where I don't have to rely on them.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Who does that benefit the most?

[Sue Gordon]

Great question. In the short haul, man. Uncertainty is hard for democracies, right? So in the short haul, you're seeing it even here, that autocracy, whether it is in China and the things it's able to do because it can dictate what its private sector does.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Right.

[Sue Gordon]

Autocracies are neat. Right. They can just set direction and enforce. It happens. And, and listen, our, our own president said, I alone can save you. I mean, that's a version of, you have to go along with what I say because I'm the one that's doing it. Democracies are way messier.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Yeah, herding cats.

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah, herding cats. And they're slow by design. Right. It's the slowness that gives us legitimacy. So, so in the short haul, this rewiring, this disquiet, this uncertainty creates opportunities for adversaries and competitors to create mischief. And you're kind of seeing it go on. I think what's really interesting, now that we're, you know what, so many years into this, our citizens are banding together. The world is banding together. It's getting harder and harder to have it be ignored, what's happening. And so there is strength coming just in the recognition of what's being done. But in the short haul, it benefits those that are not distracted by trying to change.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

I want to come back to the squeeze on the intelligence community and I want to show you some relief, I thought, for the accusations Trump has leveled for, I think, the better part of six years from one of the most maga y. Is that a word? Maga y advisors he has. This is John Solomon attesting to a truth that you and I know was true. From the outside, it looked like his job was to cherry pick intelligence to back up Trump's lies, but he seemed to do the opposite. Let me show you what he said after Trump's address to the nation.

[John Solomon]

You acknowledge that there were no votes changed in 2020?

I, I, all I can acknowledge is what the intelligence shows. Right. I only know the Intelligence committee has zero evidence that someone has flipped, that a foreign power flipped a vote in 2020, 22 or 24.

You're able to acknowledge that Venezuela has been not tampered with voting machines in the United States.

No, the intelligence is very clear. They did it on their own machine. Why is it important that they did it on their machines? Their machine protocols are the same as America. Why? Because for a long time they did. Exactly.

And so the 2020 election was in fact, the results as we, the American policy.

I'm still researching. So let me, let me, this is the first.

But there's no intelligence, there is no intelligence at the election would have said that Donald Trump was president, said that

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

tonight, that's all that I think needed to be said to align with the fact that the threat of interference, of weighing in on public opinion has been so prevalent for so long. But to have John Solomon say the intelligence is clear, there is no evidence that a foreign power has flipped a single vote feels like a really, really important disclosure to come from deep inside the MAGA fold.

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah. And what's wonderful about it is not only is the intelligence clear, but the determination that there was nothing that happened goes far beyond the intelligence community, because the intelligence is even the intention, even their statements about themselves doesn't exist. But then all the work that has been done subsequently doesn't support it. So, I mean, that's a profound statement. I think it was interesting that he knew he'd gotten into it and he's backpedaling as fast as he can, but,

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

like, physically, like, physically walking backward, it

[Sue Gordon]

was like, you know, it was just. Yeah, it was crazy. But I mean, yes, all of that.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Yeah.

[Sue Gordon]

And I mean, unbelievably, that he releases those documents, much like many of Director Gabbard's releases. Read them. It doesn't say any of what they say it says, so, yes, America, yes, we have adversaries and competitors who would like to shape our elections. No, it has not happened. And yes, we have lots of work that's going on to preclude it from happening. So go out and vote.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

And if you don't believe Sue Gordon or Nicole Wallace, you can believe John Solomon. I want to turn to Iran to hear him post about committing war crimes and atrocities. It hurts me as an American, but it also endangers the lives of the military. Has no one told him that, or does he not care?

[Sue Gordon]

Of course people have told him that. We told him in the first administration it was inconvenient. That's why he got people around him that were not going to tell him those things. And yet still those things get told him. So of course he hears it. I try really hard not to get in someone's head about what they care and don't care about. It is not my experience that the President believes in anything and that it is so disproportionately transactional. That is different from saying that some of his ideas aren't good, some of his policies don't have merit. This is just, you know, has conviction such that when conditions change, he doesn't just move with it. He tends to want what he wants. And in this administration, there seems to be less purposeful friction to him getting it. And so Then when reality rears its head, he has to create some other reason to justify that as happening. Different from.

[John Solomon]

Huh?

[Sue Gordon]

I guess we need to recalibrate, and you saw it as recently as Secretary Hegseth's testimony. We need to make sure that Iran never gets a nuclear weapon. They didn't have one. They had no more activity moving for it. So how do we keep on? What are we doing now?

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Right.

[Sue Gordon]

Why are we still bombing now? I have children who served, who volunteered to serve, and served in harm's way. What are we conducting these operations for?

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

What?

[Sue Gordon]

Either it's already accomplished, I think probably so. Or we need to recalibrate whether this is the way we're going to get it. But to keep on pounding the ground with women and men who choose to serve their turn, seemingly oblivious to the relative additive value of what we're doing today. That seems to simply be our unwillingness to sign an agreement where we get less than some outcome that we are never going to get. And we're putting real humans, friends of my children, people I know in harm's way. For what?

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Why isn't there anyone that can say that to him?

[Sue Gordon]

Maybe I need to call him.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Would you?

[Sue Gordon]

Maybe that's what I do. You know, I think I fall into the category maybe of the people he likes the most. People he fired but didn't write a book.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Sue Gordon]

You know, you can't say things to him. I've said things to him. But you do have to have some conviction that allows you to do it in a straightforward manner. He doesn't seem to be even the same person he was in the first administration. How more cruel, the assault on the free press. You know, I don't know if you and I ever talked about this, but I always loved journalists because I felt journalists in the intelligence community were doing the same function for America. We just had different modalities. So, interestingly, I think the intelligence community hates the attack on the free press, even though you all can be pesky sometimes, because it's diminishing what we're best at as confronting reality over the whim of an individual.

[Tina Anderson]

Right.

[Sue Gordon]

That's what this whole thing is about. Power of the people. He seems to need to damage more rather than to manage more than he did in the first administration. He doesn't seem to have the same governors on him. He doesn't seem to have the same people around him who won't go on TV and give credence to the worst of it. I mean, your John Solomon video, I would love to play it for Secretary Bessant,

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

beset to me says the most ludicrous things, like, there's no way Besant was this person 36 months ago.

No way.

[Sue Gordon]

And again, he has stature, he has abilities. When he was confirmed, you sat there and said, okay, right? Then I can sit here saying to you in the summer of 2026, it isn't the worst thing in the world to lose your job if you did that while still standing on the line. It's the only thing we have. And again, we don't work for the president. We work for the American people. But the whole premise of our nation is that the power is with us. The reason it's slow is so that this kind of stuff can't happen. And I wish all our leaders, all our, you know, the people that are appointed, the people that get asked questions in their confirmation hearings, those senators and the Congress members that seem to be willing to fall in line, I wish they would remember who they're working for because everything that the United States is today imputes to them. Now, I see lots of great signs that people are recognizing that what we have isn't what we need. But this is a moment where everyone needs to hold their space to do their job, from Mr. And Mrs. Iowa to sue and Nicole to our elected representatives. And maybe if all those people will remember that, then the President will be surrounded with people who are sending back to them. Not, yeah, you have the power, so you can do it, but say, yes, this is what we need. So I don't know what it'll take for President Trump to be different about how he approaches this. But I do know if everyone else who held space could see clearly what this is about and held theirs, he would have less room than he does today.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

My conversation with Sue Gordon continues right after the break. Stick around. We'll be right back.

[John Solomon]

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[Tina Anderson]

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[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Why do you think the private sector can't stand their own ground? I mean, you're an honorable public servant who walked away from a workforce you revere. But what explains the leaders of law firms, the leaders of universities, the leaders of big banks? Why are they enabling the destruction of the actual White House as well as the rule of law, the integrity of intel? Why are they funding this?

[Sue Gordon]

I think they have gotten confused about why they're able to be so successful as they've been. And a huge part of it is because this nation exists as it does, that we're a nation of laws, and that their businesses have been massively successful because they're built on a foundation that is sound and it has made them successful beyond imagination. And now, because that foundation has been set and because it isn't completely gone, they're thinking, I can get more and I can get more. And so I think there are things that this administration offers them in terms of tax breaks and lowering regulations that seem attractive for their continued advance. And in fact, what I try and do in this part of my life is I try and work with companies to get them to understand that as the power architecture of the world has shifted, they have more responsibility than they used to have for not just using the system that was constructed, but being part of its redesign. So it's successful. So I think there's a certain amount of, hey, this is working for me. Right? I kind of understand the middle companies too, because, you know, I think I had a very easy view, very moralistic view of right and wrong. When I was in the government, in the private sector, this issue of shareholder value, right? And so if they make decisions that cause them to lose business, that cause them to not have funding so that they don't exist, lose employees, lose standing, that is an interestingly different proposition that I had when I was in the government. So I, you know, being generous, I would say, man, that's hard to make that decision to undermine. And look, and there's lots of examples where people have gone out of business because they've fallen out of favor. I wish that they would see that there is far worse in this world than losing everything you have. What is worse is not having the potential to have more. And so I guess the people in the middle I understand and I try and show grace. But on a really personal level, I would say that I used to believe if you worked hard and did good things, good things would happen. I no longer believe that. But I believe if you work hard and do good things, you can live with yourself. And that gives you one more day.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

My eagle eyed viewers have tracked your health journey and they will be upset if I don't ask you how you're feeling and doing. Well.

[Sue Gordon]

I, I think one great I'm here. And I think there were early days of the diagnosis that if you believe the Internet and if you ever get sick, don't believe the Internet because they're not talking about you. But if I had believed the Internet, I didn't have much time and thanks to just a lot of things. Look at me, I'm here. It's still a journey for anyone who's been on this one. They know the truth is it steals some of your innocence and you fight every day. So my doctors would love it if I would stop being special. But I'm good and here and I haven't lost an ounce of passion for who we are. Not, not one. And I don't hate America. When I say harsh things about us, that is the best love that there is. We are a great country. We have so many strengths, so many things that we have not lost. So if I am harsh on leadership, it's because I believe the only responsibility of leaders is to preserve the opportunity for our women and men to get where they need to go.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

What about fighting for your country while you're fighting for your good health is different. I mean you are different. Since you've been fighting both battles at the same time, you are even clearer. I would say your warnings are more urgent but your love or what you're willing to say about your love for the country, more public and more open. You're sort of less guarded. What is it about being on both battlefronts at the same time that we should understand?

[Sue Gordon]

What a great question. I think I'm kinder, and I thought I was a kind person before, but, man, you know, illness will take away any pretense of privilege. And, boy, people are so good, and they will rally. And so I think one of the things that's changed is I am more profoundly committed to people than I was before because they are good and they want good, regardless of their political views. They are. And I want to do my part for them. So that's one. I don't think I have as much time as I thought I was going to have. And so I better get on my horse if there's something that I want to do and say. So I'm feeling. I'm feeling the clock ticking on that. So I'm trying to be better. You know, I have a podcast. I took a break this summer because I thought, man, I either need to make it bigger, stop doing it, because I'm not sure I'm doing enough. So the second thing is, I'm not doing enough. I need to do more. And then I think the third thing is I'm less afraid. What can anyone do to me, Nicole? I mean, seriously, I lost my career. Who cares? And I'm still here. And found a new way to try and serve my country. I lost the love of my life, and I can hardly even say that and imagine going on. And yet I'm here. There are a lot of people who don't feel like they can speak because of all the things you and I talked about in this episode, right. Of realities of their life, a position they have about responsibilities. They feel that I've gotten every single thing I ever wanted or Jim and I ever wanted. I have it all. Oh, I want more, but I have it all. So if I can be unafraid, what can anyone do to me who can come after me? If the president decides after listening to this podcast that, oh, my gosh, he needs an executive order against me, I'm gonna say bring it right? Because all I always say is, to the American people, you think I'm the problem. So I think it's changed me in ways that I never, certainly never wanted, probably didn't need. But I'm trying to take advantage of the person I've had to become because I don't get to be who I was.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

How do you sit in that unafraid part?

[Sue Gordon]

Did I say I hate you? Seriously, Nicole, I'm a steely eyed hunter and you make me cry. You made me cry because, man, life is good and if you have a minute, do something with it. I think that's, I think, you know, if I get a day, it's a good day. It is. I get to do this. I get to, you know. And what's funny is, Nicole, you and I might have never met.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Right?

Well, I thought about that when you went through everything you lost. I remember when Trump was running a third time and we'd been warning about. I did a series on autocracy in America. It could happen here. Because he'd said everything out loud. Right. We knew what he was going to do. He campaigned on being retribution. And I remember after he won and seeing all the people, kind of to your point, I mean, the reporters got up and reported that Trump had won decisively. Like America's sort of open source intelligence agents reported the truth. It was that Donald Trump had won. He was president again. So the idea that we're all sort of in this thing together, I guess, is the gift. And maybe that's the whole point. Maybe trying to get to the other side is something you do out of fear and something that you're not foolish enough to do when you feel lucky to have the day in the moment.

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah, maybe. When President Trump was elected the second time, one of the things I did is I called a bunch of my friends, I said, if he could ask you to serve. Serve.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

You did?

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Wow.

[Sue Gordon]

Hell, Nicole, if he'd asked me to serve, I would have done it now. I would have been fired every single day. But for the people that I hope. Listen to this. I just don't think people in general understand those people who choose to serve are doing so because of a profound love. Even if they see some reality that they think is hard, they still do it. And the other thing I have to say, and this is for, you know, the party that is smug about this moment, you know, when my PS PTSD was worst, was when the Biden administration wouldn't bring me back in because I was from the Trump administration.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

What happened?

[Sue Gordon]

Well, I thought those people above all others would know who I really was. Right? That I could sit on panels or commissions or special groups and studies like that. And so I think one of the things we really need to check ourselves as we come into this next room. Can we really afford to be throwing away half of our institutional talent every time we have an election because of the misperception that people who serve their country, even though when they go into a voting booth they surely vote in that privacy, that they still are not beholden to anyone. And I think we've got to get over that because you and I have talked about this. We are breaking ourselves now. Granted we were broken before, but we are broken. We are getting more broken. This administration isn't capable of building new. They might get temporary actions, but they're not building new. So we're going to have to, as a nation, decide to rebuild our institutions in a new way to recognize the way power has moved in a digital world. Who's going to do that if we can't hire anybody because they're the wrong party? I mean, we've got to get on that. There are so many things we need to do. Our Founders vision is spectacular and we know it works. This collision of capitalism and democracy in perfect tension is brilliant. But our institutions and our laws didn't imagine this world. Let's get together and make it so. We cannot be without government and our government has to be better. Man. There are people that can help do this. Let's not shut them out.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

I love you so much. Your friendship is one of the bright beacons of this chapter in my life. Thank you so much.

[Sue Gordon]

Back at you.

[Podcast Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Thank you so much for listening to the Best People. All episodes of the podcast are also available. Just visit Ms. Now thebestpeople to watch. The Best People is produced by Vicki Vergolina and Ayan Chatterjee. Our associate producer is Nico Vinuela Yodar, with additional production support from Query Robinson. The audio engineers for this episode are Bob Mallory and Hazik bin Ahmad Fared. Katie Lau is our senior manager of audio production. Pat Burkey is the senior executive producer of Deadline White House. Brad Gold is the executive producer of Content strategy, Aisha Turner is the executive producer of audio, and Madeline Herringer is Senior VP in charge of audio, digital and long form. Search for the best people wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to follow the series.

[John Solomon]

Everyone knows winter is the real messmaker. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners for summer. Unless you hit the beach and half the beach ends up back in your car or the campsite dirt ends up in your trunk. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. Lemonade spills. Ketchup goes rogue. Ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear, as the mud you're inevitably going to step in this summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today.