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The Besties
Cairn Is a Climbing Game for the Real Ones
00:50:48
Climbing games have become a trend over the past few years, ranging from the AAA mountains of Death Stranding to the indie polygonal crags of Peak. But no climbing game has been as loyal to the actual physical experience of ascending cold, hard rock as Cairn. The guys report on their time on the cliffs. Plus, Plante shares his feelings about the brilliant adventure game, Perfect Tides: Station to Station. You can hear more about that game in Plante’s recent interview with its creator, Meredith Gran.
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- [00:00]
Griffin Macroy
I'll tell you the problem for me, and it is honestly sort of a deal breaker because I don't like a lot of mess. You know, you're a clean boy.
- [00:11]
Christopher Thomas Plant
You're so clean.
- [00:12]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah. I don't like having stuff on me. Right. And so all the chalk while playing Cairn is getting all over my raw Gal ix. It's getting all over my pants. It's getting all over my couch. It's getting fricking everywhere. I don't know why. The game comes with a big bag of chalk and says you have to do you have to have this on while you play it.
- [00:31]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah. I also didn't appreciate that it came in writing chalk form. It didn't come in powder. It didn't come like Lebron James.
- [00:38]
Griffin Macroy
You gotta squish it up yourself. Exactly. It's like, why do it that way?
- [00:41]
Russ Freshnik
Why do it?
- [00:43]
Griffin Macroy
Why even do it at all?
- [00:45]
Christopher Thomas Plant
I think I know what went wrong here.
- [00:47]
Griffin Macroy
You.
- [00:50]
Christopher Thomas Plant
So you're actually only supposed to use the chalk on your hands. You're not supposed to fully disrobe and cover your entire body in chalk.
- [00:58]
Griffin Macroy
Okay, see that's the. Okay, so that's the. I've never climbed a rock before, guys. How am I supposed to know who am I using?
- [01:04]
Russ Freshnik
I think I was watching just recently. I was watching the live free climbing. What is his name? Alex Harnold was climbing the. Honnold was climbing the mountain or the building?
- [01:16]
Griffin Macroy
Not a mountain.
- [01:16]
Russ Freshnik
The building.
- [01:17]
Christopher Thomas Plant
So you didn't watch this at all? I want to be really clear.
- [01:21]
Russ Freshnik
I was watching it. And he used his butt crack at one point to leverage a windowsill.
- [01:29]
Griffin Macroy
Yes.
- [01:29]
Russ Freshnik
And I guarantee that butt crack had.
- [01:32]
Griffin Macroy
At least a little bit of chalkiness. Little bit. Little. Maybe. Maybe a touch of gold bond.
- [01:37]
Russ Freshnik
Skosh.
- [01:38]
Griffin Macroy
A skosh of gold bond. To get that extra grip you got to sometimes.
- [01:44]
Russ Freshnik
Yep.
- [01:44]
Griffin Macroy
And also wintry powdery freshness. Feels great.
- [01:50]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Gotta be real. I'm not caring for this conversation.
- [01:53]
Griffin Macroy
No, no, no, no. My name is Griffin Macroy. I know the best game of the week.
- [02:16]
Christopher Thomas Plant
My name is Christopher Thomas Plant and I know the best game of the week.
- [02:19]
Russ Freshnik
My name is Russ Freshnik. I know the best game of the week.
- [02:23]
Griffin Macroy
Justin got pulled into his toilet into toilet Narnia. But this week. Welcome to the Besties where we talk about the latest and greatest in home interactive inner gaming. It's a game of the year club. And just by listening, my friend, you have become a member. Hope that you are staying safe and warm. We've got a game for you that is maybe not the Best for feeling safe and warm is a game about being quite cold and in peril and hungry and in peril and thirsty. In fact, I'm gonna go ahead and give it the besties award for worst imaginable game to play while iced into your house with your two children. It is Cairn. Hey, Chris Plant. What's Cairn?
- [03:08]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Some people are calling it the latest strand game. I'm calling it a climbing, bouldering, rock climbing simulation. You put one foot and one hand in front of the other and you go up a mountain. It's as simple as that. Not quite as foddy esque as some other climbing games we've been playing, but we'll talk about all of that.
- [03:30]
Griffin Macroy
But still very, very, very funny when you fall down off the mountain. We'll talk about all that and more with Carrot after this short break.
- [03:37]
Russ Freshnik
Okay, so Cairn is a mountain game. You are climbing a mountain. You are a expert climber and you've.
- [03:44]
Griffin Macroy
Got all and kind of a butthole. I will say. Ava, I think is a great character but kind of hugely unlikable for quite a bit of the game.
- [03:53]
Russ Freshnik
But I will admit that, like having watched Free Solo, the documentary about Alex Honnold, I think that's kind of part and parcel with the activity.
- [04:03]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah, there's something. The game is a real love letter to bouldering, rock climbing, the whole world. There is a sort of detachment that one must possess in order to become a rock climbing weirdo.
- [04:17]
Russ Freshnik
And you need to not be worried about the pain that you would inflict on others because your passion is so great.
- [04:23]
Griffin Macroy
Humongous selfishness. Thank you, Rez. I think that's what we're all dancing around. I think if you heard the description and even I think if you played 30 minutes of the game, you would say it's baby steps, but with double the attachments. It's baby steps with hands, baby hands, baby feet only. Not really humorous in nature. And I think that that is, I don't know. I had a pretty negative first reaction to this game. It honestly was not until I started to go up the mountain and get into the rhythm of it that I felt like, okay, I get what this thing is doing. And what this thing is doing is actually pretty cool.
- [05:03]
Russ Freshnik
It has grown on me. That's true. I think it, yes, it overwhelms very early on because it's presenting you with pretty tough just like mechanics within the first five minutes of like use your piton and use the grip and make sure you're filling up your thirst meter. Whatever it is, but I do think you get there.
- [05:24]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Let's dig into that. Like literally the moment. To the moment. Weirdly, almost closer to qop. The other Bennett body game where you control each different appendage with a button here they've tied. You can cycle between your two hands and your two hands.
- [05:41]
Russ Freshnik
In fact, you have to. I don't think there's a way to control two limbs at the same time.
- [05:45]
Griffin Macroy
No, no, I don't think so.
- [05:46]
Christopher Thomas Plant
And there is an auto mode, so you don't have to be making sure, like, okay, do I want to use my right arm or. And it recommends the auto mode where it's picking what is probably the best appendage to move at that time.
- [05:58]
Griffin Macroy
Yes, I think it is the way it weighs. There's so much stuff going on under. The climbing mechanics of this game are the fucking star of the show. I feel like clearly the thing that the most thought and effort went into and it really is an accomplishment because it is weighing so much stuff all the time. It's not just enough for you to have your hands and feet both pretty well embedded, you know, in like a nice grip. As you're climbing the mountain, you'll see little alcoves and little cracks. And you gotta really look at that stuff and figure out, love those cracks, love those cracks. Cause they're just an easy little path for you to follow. But also like if your legs are twisted up or like if your butt is sticking out too far, like there's a lot of kind of physics calculations that are taking place. And true to sort of the genre, you have a certain amount of endurance as you're finding these lines and trying to figure out where to put your hands, where to put your feet as you climb Mount Kami. And if you run out of endurance, you can kind of shake it off once or twice, but then you are going to fall unless you put a piton down. But you can run out of pitons. Which brings us to the sort of economy of the game, which I am way more mixed on than just the straight rock climbing of it.
- [07:11]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, so you are. There is a whole survival element to this game. In addition to the climbing and measuring stamina, you're also making sure your hunger meter is filled up. If you don't do that, then it's going to impact your stamina and your ability to grip, etc. Same thing with water. Same thing with, I think rest is one of them. Is that correct? You remember?
- [07:32]
Griffin Macroy
I don't know, man. You have to stuff off pretty quick.
- [07:36]
Russ Freshnik
You Fill a bag. Very early on you have like starting equipment that you find and you've got water bottles and bars and things like that. You can cook, you can mix items together and you can also find stuff in the wild. So I found some raspberries. I found like a little spout that was giving out water from the rock. Filled up my gear. And you gotta make sure that stuff balances. Now, early on, very early on, maybe the first thing you decide is how you want to play this game. And the second that I knew that there was intense survival mechanics, I was like, no, thank you and opted out.
- [08:13]
Griffin Macroy
It's just, it's interesting. The stuff that they are doing with that is interesting. It is like it incentivizes you to be playing the game in a certain way. Looking for alcoves and little caves and you're sort of exploring kind of an abandoned mountain village as you're kind of climbing up and you're finding supplies from them. You're finding straight up dead mountain climbers and kind of getting their resources which.
- [08:40]
Russ Freshnik
Like score, by the way.
- [08:41]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah, it's a sweet, sweet. But like that stuff all on top of just the moment to moment, I think. Incredibly strong. Satisfying. Honestly, kind of puzzle y mountain climbing of trying to find your path and keeping it all balanced. I feel like it's just a hat on a hat a little bit. And it was not, I don't know, I turned it off after a couple of hours because it just felt like it was making me want to not play the thing, making me not want to make me want to stop playing the game fully. Even though I was really enjoying sort of the climbing aspect of it. So you can turn that stuff off.
- [09:17]
Christopher Thomas Plant
To use Baby steps as a comparison. And I'm not saying one is better than the other, but Baby steps has these other alternative routes. Or you can even go down in a different direction, right? You can go see a pool, or you can go intentionally off an edge and find a new path. Or you can not, like, you can just keep going up. You can create that challenge for yourself. When you have this mode on, it is weirdly encouraging you to consider going back down to get other things. So you'll climb up the side of a mountain, right? And that feels like the core of the game. And then you will while climbing, see a bee's nest and be like, oh, once I get to the top, I could plant my piton or pylon or whatever and repel down.
- [10:04]
Griffin Macroy
They say piton in the game. I had always heard piton, but sure.
- [10:08]
Christopher Thomas Plant
It's a region and go for it. But you also in doing that you might fall and lose not just the effort that you made, but like more supplies and more energy. So yeah, I get it. It reminds me like Death Stranding 1 in some ways of it is way.
- [10:27]
Russ Freshnik
More punishing than death issue. I don't want to spend too much longer because I think we all agree that the survival stuff is unnecessary and kind of detracts from the overall experience unless you're a hardcore person. But we're not.
- [10:39]
Griffin Macroy
Yes. And I think the game builds well enough tension without the kind of survival aspects. The main thing that you are doing in this game, and I think it is something you do more even than in a peak or in a baby steps, is like routing out where you are going to go. Right. Sometimes while exploring the world, you'll find a map and the map has been drawn by another mountain climber and it will show you kind of potential lines and their respective difficulty settings. That's great. When you find one of those, you're like, oh, fuck. Yeah. Because otherwise like you're gonna roll up to the next sheer rock face and go into like the, you know, wide angle view mode that you have and just kind of look at it for a long time until you say, okay, I think I see where I can get up there. Because otherwise you may get halfway up a face and you've spent 15 minutes trying to like get up there and then the thing just dead ends and you're like, fuck. But even that, like you can have cool, very emergent moments where like you put a pizza on and you repel and you just kind of swing over to the other track making sort of like a desperate jump. Like, that stuff is so good. They crushed it. That shit is so, so good. I keep coming back to play the game because it is really, really, really satisfying to get up over a thing.
- [11:54]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah. I think initially I was put off by the AI controlling like deciding what limb you do.
- [12:01]
Griffin Macroy
Right.
- [12:02]
Russ Freshnik
But I do think that the way it was built, you sort of have to do that because it's not visually always the most obvious thing of like where your weight is at any given moment. Having the AI sort of take command of that and say like, oh, you really should be moving your left hand now because there's no weight on your left hand is I think a requirement. But there are moments where there's a few mechanics in here that I think work really well. You get to moments where you have to like reach up and to do that, it'll Mean, like going on one tippy toe to reach up your hand and be in a very precarious situation for like a second or two before you.
- [12:42]
Griffin Macroy
You have to. And you're really committing to it because you can't really go back down once you push yourself up like that.
- [12:47]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah. So you make these interesting choices like that that I think feel really good. You just have to, like, accept the fact that baby steps, we keep going back to. It is a game where every footstep is like you deciding exactly where your foot's going to be at any given moment. And this you do it does require a little bit of finesse.
- [13:07]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah, I really like that. One suggestion I definitely have is not a difficulty toggle, I don't think. It's just like a gameplay setting you can turn on is feedback on like good foot placement. So, like, if you with that setting on while you're climbing up, if you like get your foot on like a nice foothold and it's like pretty locked in, a little like square will appear when you do it. Otherwise, like, no thing appears. And if you have like a couple of limbs that don't have good placement, your stamina just like vanishes. Your stamina also is not a meter that is on the screen. It is. You see Ava's arm, like start to shake and legs start to shake and the screen starts dark. Yeah. You get rumble feedback and you know, like, okay, I can shake this off. And then maybe I need to decide whether or not to put a pitten down.
- [13:54]
Russ Freshnik
Now you're saying pitten.
- [13:56]
Griffin Macroy
I mean, that's what they say in the game, right? I don't like, I've seen Free solo. I watched some of the things. I think this world is really fucking interesting. I always think it's really interesting when there exists an I think pretty esoteric athletic endeavor that there is so much like so many Strats about. Sometimes I'll get like, I'm buddies with somebody who's like about that life and we'll share like clips of somebody just doing like a bouldering tournament where they're like one foot off the ground trying to like, find exactly where to put their fingers on this weird dodecahedron to like get up it or like trying to climb a two foot high rock wall just like with these little tiny. I think that stuff's really cool and this is a game about that. And I think a lot of care and attention went into sort of courting that community. I have to imagine this is something that people who actually rock climb would enjoy. Because it was made by those people.
- [14:50]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, it feels very much targeted to them.
- [14:52]
Christopher Thomas Plant
It's also so different than peak and baby steps and all these other climbing games in that way too. In that those games are about moving up, but basically everything is a ladder. You're always climbing just one hand in front of the other. This is really. You might want to watch some of video of people doing free climbing just to get an idea of what it is supposed to look like. Because you're wedging yourself in weird positions to create that balance. It is not unusual for you to be almost horizontal at points as you are making your way between, let's say like a V shaped crevice of the mountain. If you try to just go straight up, you will fall because the gravity is against you at that point.
- [15:39]
Russ Freshnik
Which isn't to say that like the. The physics and the like, animations don't get a little bit janky at times. They definitely do. And that's okay for sure. It's fine. But it does.
- [15:48]
Griffin Macroy
But I have also seen it a number of times. Like get janky and then see it actually correct in a way that seems like a human body would do. It's really. I think that stuff is a technical kind of huge achievement. There's some design issues. The writing is a bit so. So for me there's scenes that have been pretty great, but I don't know that there's a whole lot of development. I don't feel particularly attached to the lead character, mostly because I think she does feel this kind of like standoffish. Not standoffish, but kind of isolated, individualistic kind of. Which is, I don't know, kind of tough to root for. But then again, I also think they are doing something with that that I just haven't gotten to in the story.
- [16:35]
Russ Freshnik
Maybe it's like a long. What is that? A short hike where at the end you just have like a very meaningful sad call and everything is fixed.
- [16:45]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah, I don't want that. I genuinely don't. Around the like three or so hour mark, I feel like the game introduces what feels like a. I don't know, an arc. And I think I'm sort of getting to the resolution a little bit. It's hard for me to tell where I'm at on this fucking mountain because you look straight up and it looks like you're close and then. No.
- [17:08]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, they do a lot of false peak stuff. I do want to share an anecdote. So I was talking to. We've mentioned him a few times, Bennett Foddy, who created QWOP and Baby Steps. And I mentioned to him like my initial reaction to this game was not very positive and. And apparently he is like fully into it, incredibly engaged with it, but specifically mentioned that he's been playing it in free solo mode which maybe shouldn't surprise anyone. The hardest difficulty and he says he's got about 40 hours into it and he's only about 2/3 of the way up the mountain. So if you want to make it last you could make yourself miserable like Bennett Foddy. But I think for most people probably turning off most of the survival stuff is the way to go.
- [17:53]
Griffin Macroy
Free solo mode, by the way. A mode that exists in the game where you don't get ropes and you do not get pitons or pitons. It is just you and it is permadeath.
- [18:03]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yeah.
- [18:04]
Griffin Macroy
So if you fall you're done. That's cool guys. That's great that that's fucking in there and available. There's going to be some speedrun travesties that are done to this game and I'm very, very excited to see those.
- [18:16]
Russ Freshnik
The other thing I wanted to mention, if you're interested in this but you feel like it's too simmy or whatever. We had mentioned this game a while ago. I forget if it was on resties or besties, but the game was White Knuckle which was a first person climbing game with one bit graphics that is a very arcadey approach to this idea but still has things about your hand strength and things like that are still factored in but much more like short runs and things like that. But I really liked it.
- [18:46]
Griffin Macroy
What's your guys takeaway on Cairn? Do you think you're going to stick with it as we move on to the next game?
- [18:52]
Russ Freshnik
I think it is starting to get way too competitive for games that I like sort of like but aren't like. I'm not totally in love with.
- [18:59]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yeah, sure.
- [19:00]
Russ Freshnik
To stay with it much more than I have. I'm several hours in and I've enjoyed it. It did start clicking with me in ways that I wasn't expecting but not necessarily in ways that like Death Stranding 2 hit Grippy.
- [19:14]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah, sure.
- [19:16]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Were y' all able to get it to run on Steam Deck?
- [19:19]
Griffin Macroy
I'm playing it on Rog Ally X. It struggles a bit. It doesn't do. It has some hiccups. I think for the most part it runs pretty.
- [19:26]
Russ Freshnik
I mean we are at the territory where like an open world 3D game probably is going to have a tough time on Steam Deck pretty consistently.
- [19:35]
Christopher Thomas Plant
I couldn't get it to start and I didn't know if it was just an issue with my Steam deck. And that's like. The bummer is this is the sort of game that I think I would put a lot of time in if I could play it basically before sleep. I love a game like this. I love a game that is all about just the flow and the feel. And I can tink with the settings and just like be in that space just stranding one. But it would be very hard for me to commit to it if I'm going to be stuck to my computer when I'm.
- [20:04]
Russ Freshnik
It is an okay game to play in front of children for the most part. So long as you don't.
- [20:08]
Griffin Macroy
Not if you're taping up your grody fingers.
- [20:10]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, fair. But they.
- [20:11]
Griffin Macroy
Your fingers can get all torn up and then you gotta bandage them. But then again you can turn off finger mode.
- [20:16]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yeah.
- [20:17]
Griffin Macroy
You don't have to look at all fingers that have been put through an absolute meat grinder. I think it's cool. I think it's really, really cool. And there are a few things I wish it had done differently. Game Bakers is the developer of this, which is. I don't think I've played one of their games since Squids and Squids Wild west, which are some fucking banger old app store gyms.
- [20:39]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, I think I played Fury.
- [20:41]
Christopher Thomas Plant
They made Fury.
- [20:42]
Griffin Macroy
Yes. Yeah, that was pretty good. That was their last one. I think it's really cool. I think it's great. I think I'm. If I am as close to finishing it as I think I am, I will probably keep going. But then again, if I play it this afternoon and I climb up and then all of a sudden there's.
- [20:55]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, there's going to be probably another mountain.
- [20:57]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah, maybe it'll be like a symphony of the night. It'll be an upside down mountain. Damn, that would be cool.
- [21:03]
Russ Freshnik
Actually parachute in.
- [21:04]
Griffin Macroy
That would be sick. Anyway, that's Karen. Let's take a break and then talk about another game, if that's okay.
- [21:13]
Russ Freshnik
Cool.
- [21:14]
Griffin Macroy
The game we're talking about in our B segment is Pirates of the Strange Tides. I don't know why Chris Plant has brought.
- [21:21]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Aye, matey. I'm ready to be canceled this. It's good stuff. Hey, I want to tell you about Perfect Tides. Station to station. Have either of you had a chance to play this game yet?
- [21:37]
Russ Freshnik
No, I haven't.
- [21:39]
Griffin Macroy
No, I haven't. Not either.
- [21:41]
Christopher Thomas Plant
That's great. Then I can tell you all about it. So Perfect Tides, Station to Station is actually the sequel to a game called Perfect Tides. It is an adventure series. They are more or less memoir games. They are about a fictional young woman named Mara, but they are like, pretty clearly inspired by the life of the game's creator, Meredith Grann. You also might know her as the creator and author of the comic Octopus Pie. It was a browser comic many, many years ago. But this game, it is set in the year 2003 in the magical land of Manhattan. And. And you are Mara. As a freshman in college, this is interesting to me because I was a freshman in college in the magical land of Manhattan in 2004. So it feels like I am literally transported back to a very specific moment in a very specific place. Narrow, casted to Chris plant profoundly in that fresh. Not every place in this is explicitly named what it is in real life. But like, when you keep going to your friend's apartment in this game, when you were like, hey, I want to go get food, your options will be the Celica. When you want to go see a movie, it is the Second Avenue old Yiddish movie theater. It is full of recreations of a lot of places that don't even exist anymore, like the High Line before it got turned into the High Line. There are moments in the game where you go up on the elevated subway tracks that have since been converted into a very famous park. It is truly a time capsule of a video game. But, like, that alone doesn't make it great. What makes it great is the writing here is exceptional. And even though it looks like a kind of pixelated point and click adventure game, it does its best to cut all of the things that are annoying about that genre so that you can just focus on the story. So you're not doing the, like, I need to find bubblegum and a root beer bot, and that's gonna help me solve the puzzle. You're largely just living the life of this young woman over the course of four seasons and experiencing really three big relationships in her life along with what is going on with her mother and her grandmother. And that's it. Like, it is really that simple. It is a year in a person's life, the video game. But the writing is so good and so powerful that it pulls you through. Like reading a really great novella is.
- [24:25]
Russ Freshnik
It'S there, like, player choice, I guess.
- [24:30]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yeah.
- [24:30]
Russ Freshnik
Agency.
- [24:31]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yeah, that's a great question. So there is. The game itself is very authored. So, like, every day you're gonna experience the story that the game has. Like, you're not gonna be able to choose who your boyfriend is or anything like that. But you also manage your time, so how you spend your time during that day is up to you. You can decide what book you want to read each day. You can, like, literally go to the library. You can buy books from a street vendor. You can trade them with friends. And doing those things will increase Mara's stats, like her knowledge of music or anarchy or sex. And then you can apply your stats knowledge of anarchy. I know. You acquire different skills, and then you can apply that to your writing. So then when you go to, like, write papers, which are kind of the goals of each season, I guess you will want to combine wherever your, like, best stats are. So if you've been reading a whole lot about music in the city, you would want to write an essay about music in the city. Or if you're writing a lot about sex in the city, you would want to write sex in the city.
- [25:44]
Russ Freshnik
Oh, my God, you're gonna be rich.
- [25:47]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yeah.
- [25:48]
Griffin Macroy
And, I mean, it sounds a little Disco Elysium in the way that kind of ideas would take root and become kind of mechanics.
- [25:57]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yes. But with zero stakes, where Disco Elysium is like, you could die at any moment. And all that, this is like, yeah, you might fail. Well, not even fail. You'll do poorly on a paper, and you'll get a different reaction from your teacher if you chose a really bad match. Or you might not impress a blog editor that you're trying to impress, things like that. But really, all of that is there largely to give you just a little bit of mechanical zip in your brain. That way you are pulled through the story. What it wants you to do is just kind of sign on for the ride. Right. And go from scene to scene and meet all these characters and really explore the world. So you can kind of touch and engage with anything in the world. I say touch. I mean, you can, like, get a description for pretty much everything that you see. So it is this little diorama almost of these places in this person's life where you can ask, like, hey, why is there an X versus Sever poster? And in this apartment? And if you click on it, you'll get six paragraphs explaining X versus Sever and why someone would steal that standee from their shitty movie theater job in Long island and carry it all the way to the East Village as a goof.
- [27:20]
Griffin Macroy
I fucking love the way this game looks, man.
- [27:23]
Christopher Thomas Plant
It looks. Can you describe, like, the general visual style?
- [27:26]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah, it's. It is something that I feel like is not often captured in modern pixel art games. This kind of brief period of, I think about Sega CD pixel games where it's not necessarily constrained to any particular hardware limitations. And so the pixel art looks a bit more cartoony. It is giving me kind of Willie Beamish vibes, if that tracks for anyone. It's giving weird south park kind of vibes a little bit in just like the.
- [28:07]
Russ Freshnik
What about the Scott Pilgrim Beat em up?
- [28:11]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah, for sure. I think that. Well, no, even that. I think, you know, Hugh's pretty close to that kind of, what tribute games, kind of high def, high detail stuff. This is not really that. It looks like a, I don't know, like a PC game from 1994 or something like that. Like in that weird transitional period. But it's like really cool. It's so expressive and just really, really well drawn.
- [28:44]
Christopher Thomas Plant
I also think, like, if you are a fan of point and click adventure games, even though it strips away a lot of the mechanics, it's doing some interesting things with how it tells story using that system. So like in a lot of the old LucasArts games you have that omniscient narrator who's kind of like holier than our smarter, cleverer than Guybrush Threep would. What's weird with this is you're playing this game where Mara is the author. Like this is her most of her life. Not one to one, but it's her. And then the narrator feels like Meredith grand today. Like it feels like somebody who knows what's going to happen in life, right? So you are kind of this third party and watching somebody argue with their younger self. And sometimes the younger person is actually right. You know, it's like we weren't total morons when we were kids. But being in that dynamic is unlike anything that you get in a book. It feels like very local to what you can pull off in a video game. It's so good. Also just the vibe, just very quickly of like, so capturing that weird moment when you are in your early 20s and you are both like a kid and adult at the same time. And like in a moment you'll be like talking with a crush on the phone, falling asleep. And then you'll be listening to Neutral Milk Hotel on the subway, thinking you're having the most profound experience of your life. And the next moment you'll be buying condoms for the first time. And then the moment after that you'll be having to take your grandma to the hospital or something. You know, like sort of just a.
- [30:26]
Griffin Macroy
Sashimi plate of slices of life.
- [30:28]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yeah, just a spread.
- [30:31]
Griffin Macroy
A charcuterie, if you will. I love it. I will definitely want to check this out. What are you playing it on? Is it.
- [30:37]
Christopher Thomas Plant
You can play it on PC or Mac. It works perfectly well on a MacBook Air. So you don't need like a whole bunch of power to run this thing. And I believe it is coming to Switch later this year.
- [30:49]
Griffin Macroy
Okay, cool.
- [30:51]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Very cool.
- [30:52]
Griffin Macroy
Do we want to do some mail?
- [30:53]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, we have some reader mail. We had this letter from JMAN 1980. We had this letter from JMAN 1980 about the game genie. We were asking how the game genie works. If you remember, this is what JMAN wrote. The game genie just intercepts memory, reads, writes between the game and the console. The codes are actually just memory, address and values. So the game genie people find out where the system in the system memory Dick Tracy's health is. And then every time the game tries to reduce Dick Tracy's health, the game genie is like, I got you. But then when the game asks what Dick Tracy's health is from the system memory, the game genie is like it's 100. And then the game is like, you sure? Okay, sounds good.
- [31:37]
Griffin Macroy
So basically, I mean, that's what we said, right? It's just a shunt. It basically is just. It captures the electricity signals, changes them a little bit.
- [31:46]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yeah.
- [31:46]
Russ Freshnik
I do want to know what, like how you find the, like flying mode in Mario in the system. Like, I guess is swimming versus not basically in the code.
- [31:59]
Griffin Macroy
Probably.
- [32:00]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, something like that.
- [32:01]
Griffin Macroy
I don't think we know enough about however SNES games were programmed. But it's got to be in there somewhere.
- [32:08]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, probably. Evan said that it's probably some understanding of the wish making process. So that could also be it.
- [32:15]
Griffin Macroy
It's about visualization and manifestation that's very huge for the game.
- [32:19]
Russ Freshnik
Gene Drew also wrote in to say that Fable will. Drew.
- [32:25]
Griffin Macroy
Drew. Not fricking level 9,000. Yeah, Drew. Drew at. Drew Davenport. Put some respect on this man's name. Drew.
- [32:33]
Russ Freshnik
Drew. Fable will have office style cutaways. Please devote 20 minutes to the next episode to talk about it without Justin here.
- [32:41]
Griffin Macroy
That feels wrong.
- [32:41]
Russ Freshnik
Feels wrong. So we'll save the Fable, But I.
- [32:45]
Griffin Macroy
Don'T like that you don't like it. As someone who is genetically kind of linked to Justin, I don't like that. Why? I don't think it will be good. I don't think it will be good to have cutaways in the Fable game.
- [33:02]
Christopher Thomas Plant
I think I know what would really get you, though.
- [33:04]
Griffin Macroy
What's that?
- [33:04]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Office style cutaways. But they kind of make like, you know, those like silly Monty Python style jokes.
- [33:12]
Griffin Macroy
I don't think hum. It is so hard for humor to exist in a manner in which the game will stop and say, here comes and now here comes some humor. It's like, that's crazy, guys.
- [33:28]
Russ Freshnik
I mean, but Fable has that. Fable's like a jokey game constantly.
- [33:32]
Griffin Macroy
Fable doesn't have the exact thing. Fable doesn't have a thing where you pick up a chicken and then the game stops and the main character looks at you and is like extra crispy. Like he's not Bubsy, he's not gex. Like they're gexing it up.
- [33:47]
Russ Freshnik
I don't think it's gonna be constant. I think it'll be during cut scenes. You'll like meet a big boss and then the boss will be scary and then it's gonna cut away and he'll be like a nerdy guy making trains. That's my case.
- [33:57]
Griffin Macroy
Great. I mean, Conker's Bad Fur Day did it. I don't know why.
- [34:01]
Russ Freshnik
Did it? Yeah, probably they did like two camera.
- [34:05]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Well, it didn't do like the documentary cutaway.
- [34:07]
Griffin Macroy
It didn't do documentary cutaway. That's fine.
- [34:09]
Russ Freshnik
That's a big difference.
- [34:10]
Griffin Macroy
The office did it. The office did invent. Yeah. Fable needs to fucking come out. Fable's making me anxious now with this.
- [34:18]
Russ Freshnik
They released like a lot of information. It does seem like it's actually happening. I know. It came up during our predictions episode of whether it would happen or not.
- [34:24]
Griffin Macroy
This is what I get for not being logged into a newsroom Slack channel all the time is I miss when they actually do come out and say Fable's real.
- [34:32]
Russ Freshnik
They said some nonsense about there being a thousand NPCs or whatever, which. Whatever. Todd Howard has said that for thousands of years.
- [34:39]
Christopher Thomas Plant
We can't trust anything until the game is out.
- [34:41]
Griffin Macroy
That's for sure.
- [34:42]
Christopher Thomas Plant
New rule. No trusting video games until they're out.
- [34:45]
Russ Freshnik
I guess.
- [34:47]
Griffin Macroy
Anybody play anything else?
- [34:50]
Russ Freshnik
Well, I've been playing something that I can't talk about, so we're not going to talk about that. I will talk about the thing that I went to, which was Taskmaster Live.
- [34:59]
Griffin Macroy
Oh, how did you get tickets to that? Jesus Christ.
- [35:02]
Russ Freshnik
I have some very nice friends that work at the Town hall in New York City, which is a very nice theater and I like them a whole lot. And I was able to sneak on in there and it was spectacular. It was so much fun. I was skeptical that they would manage to capture the spirit of the show. That I've watched on YouTube many, many years in a live format. And just the charm and the chemistry between Greg and Alex through the roof.
- [35:34]
Griffin Macroy
Is it a different cat? What is the format? I know nothing about it.
- [35:37]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah. So the first half of the show, the live shows, at least when they're touring, I think the tour just wrapped, at least for this time. They did a Q and A for the first half, and then in the second half, they just turn it into a mini episode of probably a full length episode of Taskmaster where they'll do partially people from the audience as members of the cast and partially special guests.
- [36:00]
Griffin Macroy
Just brought up at random or they.
- [36:02]
Russ Freshnik
Actually had tasks that the audience could complete to become a member. So one of the tasks was they handed out. When everyone came in, they handed out pieces of paper. And that piece of paper was used for a few different challenges to make it up on stage. But one of them was make your best paper airplane in a minute and then throw it on stage and try to hit Alex in the head.
- [36:24]
Griffin Macroy
Great.
- [36:24]
Russ Freshnik
And whoever got closest basically won. And so, yeah, so they had three random people on stage who were incredibly fun to watch. They were like, perfect for that. It can be a little awkward, I would imagine sometimes, but those three people I saw was great. And then we had Alex Moffat was there from snl and also Lisa Gilroy, who is talented, improvised, and it was just like dynamite. Oh, and Jason Manduka showed up at the end and had like a little.
- [36:55]
Griffin Macroy
Jesus Christ. That's so stacked. That cast. That's crazy.
- [36:58]
Russ Freshnik
The night before was John Oliver and Seth Myers were the. Were the big guests. So pretty crazy. Yeah. The tickets tend to be very competitive, so I would recommend going to the Taskmaster website to sign up to their mailing list if something is coming in your neighborhood. Amanda mentioned that they sold out Chicago in like two minutes.
- [37:19]
Griffin Macroy
She was on a meeting with us when the tickets went on sale and she was like, sorry, guys, I'm gonna be a couple minutes. Oh, they're gone. Like crate, like instantaneously.
- [37:27]
Russ Freshnik
But it was great. I really enjoyed myself.
- [37:30]
Griffin Macroy
Cool. I have been playing. So we've started to stream playing video games individually, me and Justin and Travis on the McElray Family YouTube channel. And I am doing a new run of Trial by Fieri, which is my randomized Zelda series. I've done Link to the Past. I've done Ocarina of Time, both of those games that I know extraordinarily well and felt well equipped to handle a randomizer for. But we've had People ask for more of it. And so I was trying to figure out what to do next. And Majora's Mask has been randomized. People have picked it apart to a degree where you can't do it. The problem is I don't fucking remember that game because I haven't played it.
- [38:12]
Russ Freshnik
I would struggle with normal Majora's Mask.
- [38:14]
Griffin Macroy
Yes, absolutely. I am struggling in a major way because that is the game that I've been playing is Majora's Mask 3D, specifically the Grezzo version that came out in 2014. I do think you're supposed to say Gretzo.
- [38:26]
Russ Freshnik
You're also supposed to say Fieri, by.
- [38:28]
Griffin Macroy
The way, but Fieri, Grezzo. Fieri. Yeah, yeah. I've been playing it just honestly to freshen up because playing it again for stream randomized, like you find the Garrow Mask. What the fuck am I supposed to do with that? I don't know. That was 12 years ago that I played this game. There is a restoration mod that has been made for Majora's Mask 3D specifically to address a few, you know, issues that people have with the game. Apparently they fucked up Zora swimming pretty bad in the 3DS version. But there's a lot of like really great quality of life stuff in the 3ds version. Like for instance, when you play the Song of Double Time, you can jump to a specific hour. Because in the original Majora's Mask, like if you were waiting for the lady with the bomb bag on the first night in North Clock Town, you'd have to wait around until midnight. And it took fucking forever. And it was so boring. Like there's lots of questions, but now.
- [39:19]
Russ Freshnik
You'Re waiting, wait, you wait. And then she's selling like a feather, right?
- [39:24]
Griffin Macroy
What?
- [39:24]
Russ Freshnik
Cause it's randomized.
- [39:26]
Griffin Macroy
Oh. So yes, I'm not playing the randomized. I'm just playing. No, no, no, I wouldn't spoil that. I'm just playing traditional. But yes, that is how it will work once it is randomized, is I will go through all the fucking effort to reunite Kafei and Anju. And then as the moon crashes into the world, they'll be like, here is five rupees. Like, thanks dudes.
- [39:48]
Russ Freshnik
Can you guarantee that it will be completable when you do the randomization?
- [39:51]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah. So I mean, this stuff is really incredible. It is incredible how much these communities have been able to kind of reverse engineer these games. There is one for the 3DS version that I'm thinking about doing, but the you know, N64 version of Majora's Mask has been. This software has been available for a long time. When you loaded up the Majora's Mask randomizer, first of all, you have to have the right file for the game that you put into it for it to chop and screw. But then there's tons of settings you can turn on. Logic is on by default, and that just means it's not going to put the hookshot behind a thing. You need the hookshot for everything is solvable. But you can checkbox like, I actually know how to do this glitch. I can do the bomb jump to get over the bridge. And so Logic will then bend to say like, okay, well if you know how to do that thing, then we can move some stuff around. Like, it's incredibly granular. You can turn on things like when I do the stream, I will probably turn on this setting where you can choose which checks, which is like the word that they use for, like, when you find an item, it is a check. You can choose which checks are gonna have guaranteed junk, like five rupees. You can make it so I don't have to do all the Kafei and Andrew side quest stuff because I know it's going to give garbage and you can pick and choose exactly what it's going to do. So it's very detailed and very, very cool.
- [41:17]
Russ Freshnik
I thought about doing it for Elden Ring. Seems like a fun one to do.
- [41:20]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah. So the reason I really like Zelda for it. Okay. There's a whole suite of randomizer tools called Archipelago. Are you guys familiar with this at all? What it allows you to do is set up a multi world, which is basically you have a server and the server multiple users are like logged into at a time. They are playing different randomized games that are all being piped through this server. And you can find items from one game in another game.
- [41:50]
Russ Freshnik
What?
- [41:51]
Griffin Macroy
So this exists already in a, like, mashup of Link to the Past and Super Metroid. I saw this like a few years ago.
- [41:59]
Russ Freshnik
So you could find the Screw attack in Link to the Past.
- [42:02]
Griffin Macroy
Yes. Right. And also, like, you would go through a door in, you know, Corneria and it exits out of the fortune teller's shop at Lake Hylia. So like that existed, but now Archipelago is this software and platform where you can do that with fucking like every, like Hollow Knight and Pokemon Red and Blue and Microsoft Paint. There's like checks in Microsoft Paint. You have to copy an image only, like, you have no tools. And so as you get closer to getting the image right, your canvas gets bigger and you get more like there's all that stuff. It is. That stuff is really, really, I think, kind of challenging to stream maybe from my somewhat rookie position. But like, this. This world of randomizers is fucking gargantuan. And you can do a ton of crazy stuff with it. And it really is like I've beaten Ocarina of times, maybe a dozen times, probably more. Honestly, throughout my life, I used to speedrun it with my buddy Clinton. Playing it in this way was like a completely different experience. It is a completely different experience to find something and be like, well, shit, I guess I'm starting with the spirit temple. Like, it really is interesting and I'm really excited to do it with a game like Majora's Mask, where there is, you know, you have the bomber's notebook and like all of the side quests and like having that tool to kind of like help track stuff.
- [43:21]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah.
- [43:22]
Griffin Macroy
So, yes, I have been playing Majora's Mask 3D with the restoration patch, and it has been really incredible. Very, very cool. Very weird game. And I think Gretzo's 3ds Zelda remakes are like absolute top tier great shit.
- [43:37]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah, I'm looking forward to some of these actually coming to Switch. I would imagine they will eventually, just because a lot of people don't have their three DSEs lying around.
- [43:44]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah. It looks great, by the way. Running on my computer. I'm sure I should maybe, shouldn't say, but running on my computer restoration mod, like, it looks fucking great. I do have a copy. I have a copy of Majora's mask on N64 and on fucking 3Ds. 3DS.
- [44:00]
Russ Freshnik
Wow.
- [44:01]
Griffin Macroy
Boom. I got the holographic gold version.
- [44:03]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Oh, damn, that looks nice. This is where we need video.
- [44:07]
Griffin Macroy
I got the nasty ass faded gray Zelda Ocarina time cartridge because my dumbass brother gave my gold version to his ex fiance. What a butthole.
- [44:18]
Russ Freshnik
Was that how he proposed?
- [44:20]
Griffin Macroy
Yeah, he gave her my gold Zelda Ocarina of Time cartridge. I'll never forgive his ass for that.
- [44:26]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Do you have a Banjo Kazooie copy back there?
- [44:28]
Griffin Macroy
No, I got Smash Mario Kart, Mario 64 and Mischief Makers.
- [44:33]
Christopher Thomas Plant
No.
- [44:33]
Russ Freshnik
Yellow Donkey Kong 64.
- [44:36]
Griffin Macroy
No, I don't have it. I don't have a lot of.
- [44:37]
Christopher Thomas Plant
You're gonna want to go get a Banjo Kazooie because you're gonna want to play banjo recompiled on PC asap.
- [44:45]
Griffin Macroy
Because it's that what you've been playing this week.
- [44:47]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Absolutely sick. That is what I have been playing. As my bonus this week. It is a native PC build of Banjo Kazooie that takes about 30 seconds to get running and also launched alongside two huge mods, including an Ocarina of Time mod. It looks bonkers. It is wild how good these native versions of Nintendo 64 games look on PC. They are truly stunning. And yeah, if you have a copy of it, I recommend you go and check this one out. Because a solid game, you know, it's not Mario 64, but it is still pretty damn good.
- [45:36]
Russ Freshnik
It's also much less of a lift than running an N64 emulators running these recompiled games. So you'll see a lot of these games running on like relatively crappy handhelds through Portmaster and like, I was playing like Mary 64 at 60fps, like running great.
- [45:54]
Griffin Macroy
So there's a. There's an Ocarina of Time sort of version called the Ship of Harkinian. Yeah, that is like a huge fan project that like a ton of work and love and effort has gone into. And there is also a version of Majora's Mask called two Ship two Harkini, which is really, really very good.
- [46:13]
Russ Freshnik
Yeah.
- [46:13]
Griffin Macroy
I'm so fascinated. I'm so fascinated by that world. Hey, thank you so much for listening to the besties. I had a great time with you guys. Me too, Justin. But it was fun talking about Cairn and Perfect Tides. Tides to Tides. Shit. What's it called? Fuck.
- [46:32]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Station to Station.
- [46:33]
Griffin Macroy
Station to Tidy Tides.
- [46:34]
Russ Freshnik
Station to Station.
- [46:35]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Got it.
- [46:35]
Russ Freshnik
Is the full name of it.
- [46:36]
Griffin Macroy
What else did we talk about? Chris Plant.
- [46:38]
Christopher Thomas Plant
What else do we talk about? I mean, we talked about Cairne. We talked about Majora's Mask. We talked about Archipelago gg. We talked about Taskmaster Live. We didn't talk about how. If you want to hear more about Perfect Tide Station to Station, you could listen to an interview with its creator on Postgames. Just put a little plug in.
- [46:56]
Griffin Macroy
But now we have talked about that.
- [46:57]
Christopher Thomas Plant
A little plug in there, maybe.
- [46:59]
Russ Freshnik
We did.
- [46:59]
Griffin Macroy
I love that. Can I get a plug in there for the Patreon?
- [47:02]
Russ Freshnik
Our Patreon, Please. We don't care about your Patreon. Chris Plant.
- [47:06]
Griffin Macroy
Whatever. Patreon helps me too.
- [47:07]
Christopher Thomas Plant
I'm not gonna complain.
- [47:09]
Russ Freshnik
That's True. It is patreon.com thebesties and we have some members to thank. We have Brendan W, we have Alexandra T, we have Drow Rin, and we have Evan. Thank you for being members. We have a new Bracket Battles episode coming out on Tuesday. That'll be exciting. We've got new resties coming every other week and all good stuff. Okay, Plant, you can. You can. You could drop in your post Dash games. What is it?
- [47:37]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Oh, sure. I mean, I already did that. Postdoc games. You can go do that. But I want to talk about the game we have next week.
- [47:42]
Griffin Macroy
Because I had a professor in college of my capstone ethics class.
- [47:48]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yes.
- [47:49]
Griffin Macroy
Who about three weeks out from the capstone paper being due, sat the class down and said, if you have not started your paper, you need to drop this class. It is too late. It is too late for you to do this paper in time for the due date for the assignment. I defied him and I did fucking cram that shit into like three intense sleepless nights. But I will say, folks, if you haven't started playing Dragon Quest vii, it is too late for you to participate in next week's discussion.
- [48:21]
Russ Freshnik
Griffin, this is a gift that you've given me that maybe dwarfs any other gift that you've ever given me.
- [48:27]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Griffin, I think it might just be me and you for that segment. Correct.
- [48:30]
Griffin Macroy
Listen, Dragon Quest 7 is what we're talking about. The remake. It is frickin RPG comfort food, baby. We're gonna be talking about that and other stuff. There's actually a few sort of embargoes that go up next week, so it'll be action packed. But you know, Dragon Quest VII is gonna be the raison d'.
- [48:47]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Etre.
- [48:47]
Russ Freshnik
Yes. I think it's fair to assume that Justin and I will be doing something else.
- [48:51]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yes.
- [48:52]
Russ Freshnik
And that's okay.
- [48:53]
Griffin Macroy
Chris and I, dirty dogs in the.
- [48:55]
Russ Freshnik
Trenches down here with our slimes.
- [48:57]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Our JR Fresh. You'll be closer to the journalism seminar that I had in college where Colin and I went and did. What's the depth charge? Is the politically correct term for the drink. Did death charges too.
- [49:16]
Russ Freshnik
Back to back Guinness with a shot of Bailey's. That one, yeah.
- [49:19]
Christopher Thomas Plant
And then went to this class, showed up reeking of Booze, showed up 30 minutes late. The professor sat us down in front of the whole class and he said, everyone, pencil. We're writing a essay right now. This is gonna be very important towards your grade. Except for you two. You don't get to write the essay. You both get A's and everybody else gets to learn that this is how life actually works.
- [49:43]
Griffin Macroy
Oh my God, that's cool. I mean, it sucks for everyone and it sucks probably the optics of that for you, but cool that you didn't have to write the paper.
- [49:49]
Christopher Thomas Plant
It was great.
- [49:50]
Griffin Macroy
You're learning the wrong lesson. You're learning the worst possible lesson.
- [49:54]
Russ Freshnik
And the worst part is I was.
- [49:56]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Toasted enough that it didn't bother me.
- [49:58]
Griffin Macroy
Sure. Oh, yeah, of course.
- [49:59]
Christopher Thomas Plant
You know, so.
- [50:00]
Griffin Macroy
Toasted.
- [50:00]
Russ Freshnik
He used the word toasted.
- [50:02]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Yeah.
- [50:03]
Griffin Macroy
We had a lot of fun in college. And you're gonna have a lot of fun listening to us talk about Dragon Quest VII and probably playing Dragon Quest VII if you. If you live that life. So tune in for the besties next week, because shouldn't the world's best friends.
- [50:16]
Christopher Thomas Plant
Pick the world's best.
- [50:23]
Griffin Macroy
Sam?