There’s Always a Lighthouse, a Pokémon, a City

Summary

The Besties Podcast: "There’s Always a Lighthouse, a Pokémon, a City"

Date: October 31, 2025
Hosts: Chris Plante, Griffin McElroy (absent), Justin McElroy, Russ Frushtick
Theme: Game of the Year energy meets King of the Hill banter as the Besties review and debate their favorite current video games. This episode centers on two main games: the newest Pokémon entry, Pokémon Legends: Z to A, and Double Fine's atmospheric narrative game, Keeper. Plus, mailbag questions, stray recommendations, and signature Besties tangents.

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Episode Overview

This episode is a classic mix of tightly-focused game reviews and loose, friendly digressions. The main topics:

• Pokémon Legends: Z to A: The latest, slightly futuristic Pokémon adventure, and how it continues and diverges from Pokémon Legends: Arceus.
• Keeper: A unique art-driven title from Double Fine, starring a sentient lighthouse.
• Community questions and offbeat recommendations round out the show, with plenty of irreverent humor throughout.

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Halloween Digression & Regional Folklore Monsters (00:00–05:10)

• The hosts open by sharing Halloween costume woes and funny family stories (00:00–02:45).
• Justin introduces Braxy, the Flatwoods monster from West Virginia folklore, leading to a riff about regional cryptids and Halloween aesthetics (02:16–04:53).

Memorable quote:
Christopher Thomas Plant: "Does California have folklore monsters? I feel like the east coast has all these amazing folk monsters. And then I moved to California and it's like you're the... you're the 5 Freeway." (02:26)

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[Main Segment] Pokémon Legends: Z to A — Review & Discussion (05:10–23:13)

Introduction & Setting (05:10–09:32)

• Griffin is absent (humorously attributed to overburdening himself with Pokémon).
• The hosts set up the new game: Pokémon Legends: Z to A (aka Za, Zed Alpha), a follow-up to Legends: Arceus set in a singular, Paris-inspired city.
• It’s described as more action-oriented and less turn-based than mainline titles.
• Notably, it’s the first big Pokémon game on Switch 2, also playable on Switch 1.

Gameplay Impressions & Visuals (09:32–14:13)

• Fast-paced action, real-time battles, freedom to explore the city.
• The city setting feels visually repetitive, almost “PS2/PS3-era,” with streets and assets reused liberally.
• Compared to Arceus, the city setting makes graphical limitations more apparent.

Notable quote:
Christopher Thomas Plant: "It's like that bit in the Simpsons: have you ever noticed in cartoons when they run out of money, they start using the same hallway over and over?" (13:31)

Comparison to Mainline Pokémon & Nostalgia Factor (14:13–19:43)

• Russ prefers the more modern, action-focused Legends-style over traditional turn-based Pokémon, finding mainline entries too formulaic.
• Arceus and Z to A offer the childhood fantasy of walking in a fully realizable Pokémon world.
• While less complex in content than core games, this style taps nostalgia powerfully.

Notable quote:
Russ Frushtick: "When I see Tepig, there is a surge of enthusiasm that runs through my veins that has been in there since the dawn of time. So it is tapping into that nostalgia..." (18:32)

Technical & Design Critiques (19:43–23:05)

• The cleaner graphics and design are kid-friendly and aid gameplay clarity.
• Performance is markedly better, especially on Switch 2 (steady 60fps).
• The simplicity in the world design is both a crutch and a creativity enabler.

Notable quote:
Justin McElroy: "It's a really good... point to remember... they are contextualizing an experience that kids should be able to continue to have just because they are getting older and time is evolving. Like, they should be able to have, like, their own version of it without adults being, like. Time to add guns." (20:56)

Final Thoughts (22:04–23:05)

• Recommended for fans of Arceus, lapsed Pokémon fans, or those with kids.
• Russ: “Would I be playing more if my son weren’t super invested in it? Probably not... they're moving in the right direction, but still not quite there yet.”

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[Main Segment] Keeper — The Double Fine Lighthouse Game (23:13–37:55)

Introduction & Background (23:13–24:52)

• Keeper is helmed by Lee Petty (Stacking, Headlander, Rad).
• Its long development was affected by resource shifts during Psychonauts 2 production.

Gameplay Experience (24:52–32:24)

• You play as a magically-animated, sentient lighthouse navigating a surreal, shifting world. The main interaction: shining your light and some light puzzle-solving with the assistance of a bird companion.
• It’s intentionally a “walking simulator” focused on visual exploration and aesthetics more than narrative or complex gameplay.
• The game’s beauty and art direction are highlighted as extraordinary.

Memorable quote:
Justin McElroy: "I never stop in games to look. But… I actually a couple times went back like, did I just—hold on, I gotta go look at that again. Because... you couldn't take it all in." (28:51)

Evolution and Depth (31:06–33:52)

• The mechanics stay simple but evolve enough to stay engaging; new elements are introduced and just as quickly retired.
• The central appeal is not in escalating challenge, but in artistic showcase and emotional experience.

A Noteworthy Departure for Double Fine (32:24–34:55)

• Keeper is unusual among Double Fine's catalog for its lack of humor, irony, or winking irreverence.
• Instead, it demands wholehearted, earnest engagement—reminiscent of a Miyazaki or Chahi game (e.g., Another World).

Notable quote:
Justin McElroy: "There is a craft to making you feel things with game design that is not numbers-based... If you can slow down to engage with it, it is not an addictive experience. It is something you can really enjoy and rewards that enjoyment..." (37:23)

Practical Note

• Strongly recommended to play on the big screen for full appreciation (35:30–35:47).

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Mailbag & Meta Discussion (37:55–51:08)

• Game Music in Big Productions (38:02–39:37):
  Insight from a listener about the laborious, unglamorous work of composing radio music for The Outer Worlds 2—many tracks produced, few selected, and little agency for composers.

• How Do They Pick Games for the Show? (39:37–47:20):
  The hosts explain that selection is based on what will make for good conversation, not just personal taste or popularity. Long games and those requiring hours to “get good” often get skipped.
  Justin: “There is a craft to making you feel things with game design that is not numbers-based...” (re: Keeper, 37:23)

• Why Haven't You Done a Full Hades II Episode? (40:08–44:40):
  The hosts find it hard to generate new discussion since most of what they’d say are repeats from the first Hades; expectations are hard to manage for a sequel that is "great, but not as revelatory."

• FMV Game Overload & The 'Pineapple Problem' (48:16–50:59):
  Justin laments being typecast as the “FMV guy”: "It does get a little bit old...hey guys, look at this fucking piece of detritus I found. Does anybody else care? No? OK, well, that's my 30 seconds." (50:12)
  A comedic bit about becoming the 'lighthouse guy' in people's minds rounds out the segment.

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Quick Picks & Recommendations (51:08–59:05)

• Christopher Thomas Plant:
  Onirism – A dense, Nintendo 64-style platformer (a la Jet Force Gemini or classic Rare), pleasing after onboarding but plagued by disastrous menus and broken UI at launch (53:05).
  Quote: "This is maybe the worst 1.0 I've ever played of a video game...the menus feel worse than the games this is taking inspiration from and that's just not acceptable." (53:05)

• Russ Frushtick:
  Robbie Hoffman’s standup special (I'm nervous, YouTube) for fans of Hacks, and dry, sharp comedy (55:43).

• Justin McElroy:
  VHS Halloween (Shudder) – The latest entry in the found-footage horror anthology series, perfect October viewing. "I like horror anthologies because they keep you from getting too narratively invested and you don't have to get too bummed out by them." (56:22)

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Closing Banter and Upcoming Topics (59:06–End)

• Griffin will return next week.
• Upcoming episode will focus on "catch up" with several games, including Seance at Blake Manor and Road to Empress (an FMV title).
• Lighthearted thank-yous to Patreon supporters with recurring inside jokes.
• The show ends on classic Besties wordplay and sign-offs.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Pokémon’s enduring kid appeal:
  Justin: "They are contextualizing an experience that kids should be able to continue to have...their own version of it without adults being like, 'Time to add guns.'" (20:56)

• On Double Fine’s earnest pivot in Keeper:
  Justin: "It is not using...comedy, you know, games can lean on that. ... But this is really...earnestly expecting you to engage with it in a really direct way." (34:26)

• Meta-joke on podcast routines:
  Justin (as his own parody): "Guys, I want to tell you real quick about Road to Empress. It's an FMV game...The other two are glazing over...If you like that kind of thing, then this is a really good one..." (50:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – Halloween costumes & American folk monsters
• 05:10 – Pokémon Legends: Z to A intro
• 08:37 – Gameplay differences, action vs. turn-based
• 11:19 – Structure, pacing, city design
• 14:33 – Personal preferences, nostalgia, and kid appeal
• 22:04 – Recommendations and final thoughts on Z to A
• 23:13 – Keeper intro and Double Fine legacy
• 26:35 – Exploration, mechanics, camera, puzzle design
• 32:24 – Artistic intent, emotion, Double Fine’s seriousness
• 37:55 – Mailbag: Game music, game selection, Hades II, FMV games
• 51:08 – Recommendations (Onirism, standup, horror)
• 59:06 – Patreon thank-yous, teasers for next week

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Summary

A classic, content-heavy, banter-rich Besties episode. Pokémon Legends: Z to A is dissected for its nostalgic power and technical limitations, while Keeper is lauded as a singularly beautiful, emotionally resonant adventure. Alongside thoughtful meta-discussion about podcast curation, the team’s chemistry shines in both criticism and comedy—making this an essential listen for fans of games discourse with a friendly, self-aware twist.

Transcript

[Justin McElroy]

What are you guys going for Halloween?

[Russ Frushtick]

Oh, no, genuinely, I have a. I have a big problem because my big concern was that. And I think I talked about on Rusty is that my son would pull a curveball and not want to dress up as the thing he was asking to dress up as. Oh, yeah, which happened last year.

[Justin McElroy]

Kid law, dude. Kids get messages. Kids get whatsapps about. My kid doesn't even have whatsapps. He gets WhatsApp messages. And she's like, well, dang it, I gotta change.

[Russ Frushtick]

Says, yeah. So this happened last year and this was after we bought a Yoshi costume for him and then we last minute dressed him up as Link from Legend of Zelda. This year, somehow I was able to mind trick him into wearing the Yoshi costume from last year, which still. So he's into that. The problem is I've spent all this mental energy and I have no fucking idea what I'm going to dress as.

[Justin McElroy]

Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, there's still time.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

What is Glenn pal been in this year? I'm allowed to. My son is a firm rule in the house. He says, what's that? I am a ghost. Pasta. Our dog is a ghost. Mommy and daddy are not ghosts. They are parents. And I say that is fair. I'm happy with that.

[Russ Frushtick]

I like that he sounds like Dracula though.

[Justin McElroy]

He.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

That's. You know, he. He has been watching a lot of very classic Universal monster movies. So he might be kind of picking up that. That cadence.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, it's working.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

How about you, Hoops?

[Justin McElroy]

Well, my kids are gonna be K pop demon hunters.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah, sure.

[Russ Frushtick]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Was there an argument over. Because there's only two of them. So what about the third one?

[Justin McElroy]

What? Oh, oh, sorry. Yes, I understand the question now. Sorry. It took me a second for my brain to catch up. There are only two of. By of them. You meant my children that I brought into the.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah.

[Justin McElroy]

With my lawyer.

[Russ Frushtick]

So there's a third unrepresented K pop group.

[Justin McElroy]

That's my wife and I'm their manager, Bobby. Right. So this is.

[Russ Frushtick]

I am disappointed.

[Justin McElroy]

It's a great gig for me. I'm so stoked because Bobby, like the classic look for Bobby is just a kind of a robe with T shirt and sweats. I'm like feeling it. I'm really excited about the role.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, that's. You're living large.

[Justin McElroy]

Sydney and I are also gonna do Mothman and Braxie.

[Russ Frushtick]

Who's Braxy?

[Justin McElroy]

Braxy is the. No, sorry. Braxy is the Braxton monster. Oh, she is going to be the Flax monster.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Does California have folklore monsters? I feel like the east coast has all these amazing folk monsters. And then I moved to California and it's like you're the. You're the 5 Freeway.

[Justin McElroy]

My wife is going to be the Flatwoods monster who is also known as Braxy.

[Russ Frushtick]

Got it.

[Justin McElroy]

Because they're from Braxton County.

[Russ Frushtick]

And there we go.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah, that's the clarification for you.

[Russ Frushtick]

I don't know about Braxy.

[Justin McElroy]

Braxy is for the Brax is from Braxton County. Let's see, let's see. According to the Wiki. Because I want to give you just like facts. Because if I give you hearsay, then that's not really going to tell you much. From Flatwoods West Virginia. Got a big sort of pointed head with two big yellow eyes, small little claw hands. There's a huge chair in Braxton county that looks like the Flatwoods monster that you can sit in. Give.

[Russ Frushtick]

You guys, is Braxton gonna be pissed if I sit in his chair?

[Justin McElroy]

It's more of a throne.

[Russ Frushtick]

Oh, so definitely pissed.

[Justin McElroy]

Some more pissed. Yeah. Because there is some symbolic power. Hold on.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Oh no. I found a picture of it and it's not where I want my kids sitting. All the photos are like three kids having time as a dead eyed giant colossal monster leers over them.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah, it's awesome.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Wow. What an upsetting little critter. Giant critter, not Braxia rules.

[Justin McElroy]

So we're gonna be Braxian Mothman. Okay. It's gonna be good.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

I'll include this picture in the newsletter.

[Russ Frushtick]

Because geez, do the Braxy sound.

[Justin McElroy]

Braxy, The Flatwoods monster.

[Russ Frushtick]

Wait, no, I mean, what does Braxy say?

[Justin McElroy]

Oh, Braxie's. Oh, okay. Oh, the say the famous saying. Yeah, yeah, Braxie's famous saying.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Uh huh.

[Justin McElroy]

Well, actually guys. Actually guys, I'm not actually supposed to be talking about this. I forgot that we're. That this is not a West Virginia safe space and Braxy would prefer that we not talk outside of West Virginia.

[Russ Frushtick]

That's very fat.

[Justin McElroy]

Forget I said anything.

[Russ Frushtick]

I'm sorry.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

I respect that.

[Justin McElroy]

Here, men in black.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Now dance, listener.

[Justin McElroy]

If you're still listening to this, rewind it and listen to the minute black sound again. And then fast forward past this part. No, listen, if you're still listening, you have to skip ahead. One of those will work.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

I'm sorry.

[Justin McElroy]

My name is Justin McElroy and I know the best game of the week.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

My name is Christopher Thomas Plant and I know the best game of the week.

[Russ Frushtick]

My name is Russ Freshik. I Know the best game of the week.

[Justin McElroy]

Welcome to the Besties, where we talk about the latest and greatest in home interactive entertainment. It's a video game club. And just by listening, you, my friend, have become a member of the club.

[Russ Frushtick]

Here's what happened, okay? Griffin caught so many Pokemon that his back broke. And now he can't move anymore.

[Justin McElroy]

Can't carry the show, can't carry all the Pokemon. So he's not with us to talk about a Pokemon game. He's sorry. I actually locked him out of the studio. He's pounding on the door outside. Please let me in.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

He says the saddest thing about is he had all the Pokemon but one on his back and his hands just juggling all the pokeballs. And then he just had to get that last one. He had to collect them all. Despite the warning, you can't collect them all. And he reached for it. And let me tell you the weirdest thing about was at the top of these stairs, about 300 stairs going up a mountain. And then he reached for it, and then all the balls just went down the stairs.

[Russ Frushtick]

And it was Weedle. Surprisingly, it was Weedle.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

And it was Weedle.

[Justin McElroy]

So, guys, when you come up and you yank. You yank the microphone out of my hand like that, you gotta keep the show moving towards like. Cause we do have to do the parts where we say the name of.

[Russ Frushtick]

No, you're right. You're right.

[Justin McElroy]

Remember, right? Russ was like. He got up on stage like Kanye. He ripped it out of my head. He's like, wait, wait, wait, hold on.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

We're talking about the latest and the greatest, but this week, we're talking about Pokemon Z to A and Keeper. What is Pokemon Z to A? Chrisplant. Well, thank you so much for asking. Pokemon Z to A or Za or Zed Alpha or whatever you want to call it, is the latest Pokemon entry, and it is a follow up to Pokemon Legends, Arceus. But where that one was in the past, this one is in the pseudo future. And we've got another great game for you. We have Keeper, the latest game from Double Fine. That's right. Tim Schafer is still making games.

[Justin McElroy]

He's never gonna die. Lee Petty made this game. Chris Plant, come on.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Oh, yeah. From the creator of Stacked, which was. I enjoyed in other games.

[Justin McElroy]

Stacked, that was my adult porno game. Stacking was the one that was a game. Stacked was my Penthouse Interactive Adventure, man.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

You get Griffin off the end, you get punchy.

[Justin McElroy]

Can I take the break?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

No, you can't, because we just want to give you a moment to know that we are also available on Patreon. And if you want this comedic greatness, you can get it for $5 a month. Or you don't want ads. Hey, there's a $10 tier and it's live right now. Every episode ad free. Anyway. Hey, Justin, take it away.

[Justin McElroy]

We'll be right back. I want to say that there was more I could have done to stop Chrisplant earlier, but I get high off of Russ being mad at somebody other than me sometimes. I love the feeling of it. I just want to fan the flames of the. Okay. Pokemon Legends Za, the legendary Zah. Let's. I'm going to ask questions as a Pokemon idiot. Okay. And pretend that that's me. Okay, sure. Which flavor of Pokemon is this?

[Russ Frushtick]

Okay, good question.

[Justin McElroy]

Kind of a Pokemon.

[Russ Frushtick]

Sure. So there's the mainline turn based Pokemon. This is not that. This is the new, I guess, action, more action inspired Pokemon game which first started off with Pokemon Legends Arus, which was a again, more action Western. That was the one that was set in like ancient Japan. Ish.

[Justin McElroy]

Okay. Yes. We played that one, right?

[Russ Frushtick]

Yes.

[Justin McElroy]

And I didn't hate it. It didn't make me as sad as some of the other ones. Right. It looks like a real video game, notably where the other Pokemons look like a baby kind of a. I mean.

[Russ Frushtick]

It has 3D graphics. So in that way.

[Justin McElroy]

Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is the. Okay, so I'm remembering this now. So it's kind of, kind of Pokemon, a little bit more of a modern vibe, aesthetically.

[Russ Frushtick]

Well, the Arceus was not. Or Arceus was like ancient Japan.

[Justin McElroy]

Sorry, I guess I meant technically speaking. But yes, I understand the distinction.

[Russ Frushtick]

Let me. Let me dive in on the top level and handle the top level questions, and then we'll get to it below. Pokemon Legends Za is set in the city that I think was first appeared in Pokemon X. Whatever. It's a fucking French city that has appeared in a previous Pokemon game. And the entire game takes place in this city. And the premise of the city is that humans and Pokemon live together in this city in harmony. They have these wild areas where the Pokemon generally chill out and then they have like city areas. And then you'll see like a bunch of Pokemon just walking around within the city. From a gameplay standpoint, this continues the stuff that they were doing in Legends Arceus, where all of your battles are taking place in real time. Your moves are on cooldown, so you'll do like a fire attack move and then you can't use that for five seconds. So maybe you'll do a different move and you're fighting Pokemon at the same time like other Pokemon at the same time. So it feels much more, I guess, actiony than you would find in like the turn based. I pick confusion, they pick blah, blah, blah and goes back and forth like that. So it's a pretty significant change. And this is the first time. This is, I guess, the first major mainline game coming to Switch 2. It's also on Switch 1 for what it's worth. But that is, I think, a noteworthy moment.

[Justin McElroy]

My impression of the Arceus was that it was like overall a much faster moving experience. Right. Like, it felt a lot snappier and more fluid both in like running around and the combat and stuff. Is this like still that I still have the fast paced.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, the movement, everything like that. If you played Arceus moving around the world, things like that are still very fast paced. I. I know Plant played a little bit of it. And the.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It's very fast paced once you get past the first three hours, which is, to be fair, the rule of all Pokemon games. Yeah, I don't think Arceus 2 or Arceus or whatever.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, I don't think it's. It's probably closer to two hours. It might have felt like three hours. I was genuinely timing it because I was curious when they actually let the wheels off. I was starting to catch Pokemon and do things within like an hour and a half, which not great, don't get me wrong.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah, ttc.

[Russ Frushtick]

But it does kind of come with the territory of this franchise. And. But once I was, I felt like I had a lot of freedom. I could go literally anywhere in the city whenever I wanted to. Granted, there were Pokemon that was much higher level and I had no chance of catching them, but I did have the freedom to like go around and find locations and find items and all sorts of stuff much earlier than I think you do. Even in a normal Pokemon game, which tends to be very siloed off.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Russ Frushtick]

Which I think was the big difference. There is, I think, a big element to this that I know Griffin probably would have spoken to if he was on this episode. And that's the divide between the Legends series, which, for lack of a better term, there are now two games in that series and the like core mainline turn based Pokemon games, the Pokemon Sword and Shield and the X and Y, et cetera, et cetera. Right now it feels like the overall amount of content in the Legends series is much, much less than you would see in a Turn based Pokemon, like core Pokemon game just in terms of areas that you're finding, the sheer number of Pokemon like things that you're doing to like really mix it up. I was actually kind of blown away because, you know, I mentioned that the entire game takes place in the city. The city is like a very simple, like generously could look like a PS2 game, PS3 maybe. It's really simple.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

And I think that's honestly the part that hurts that, that intro a bit because again, I did like Arceus. How do we. How, how do I say it?

[Russ Frushtick]

I think it's Arceus, but who fucking cares? It's a made up Pokemon.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Even though that game looks worse, it has the advantage of being in the past and being in a really open space. So your mind can fill that in the visual fidelity. In the beginning of this game, you're walking through streets and it's like, it's like that bit in the Simpsons are like, well, have you ever noticed in cartoons when they run out of money, they start using the same hallway over and over and over and over again. And it's like the street decorations to convey this is city is lots of lit windows and trash cans.

[Russ Frushtick]

I mean it's a Parisian city. You can tell that it's inspired by Paris, but it is a lot of repetition of assets and things like that.

[Justin McElroy]

In the same way that the miraculous mobile game is set in Paris, this too is set in Paris. Is this sort of like the horizons of Pokemon? Is this like the. Are there people that prefer this style of game over?

[Russ Frushtick]

There are. And those people are me you've met?

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah. Okay.

[Russ Frushtick]

I've played probably every mainline turn based Pokemon game ever. And right around sun and Moon, maybe the one after that I started losing Steam. My level of interest was like kind of flagging just because there's only so many times you can play that game over and over again. Now again, speaking for Griffin, he could play that game over and over again till the cows come home. And I'm sure he would tell us all about Pokemon breeding and how the DNA of this attack speed versus this Pokemon's attack speed is vastly different. And that is super engaging to him. I don't want to be dismissive of the people that look, it's a much deeper game when you're playing the turn based game. For me to get me engaged in it, it needed to change dramatically.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

What's the feeling of being in the world? Right. I think this is the thing that a large chunk of Pokemon players, myself included, want wanted really. Since the Nintendo 64, which was, oh, you have the ability to drop me into a 3D world. I want a Pokemon game where I get to walk around and see all the Pokemon out and about and interact with them and have the fights happen in the real world, get me out of these menus. And it does that for the most part.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, there's a little menu stuff, but largely, yeah, you're summoning Pokemon without going into menus. You're switching between Pokemon. All that stuff is happening really at real time, which helps a lot.

[Justin McElroy]

It's interesting, though, when you talk about the environments, right? Like, looking at the city environments, it reminds you of. And this is maybe like, too cynical of a take on Pokemon, but part of that static nature of the franchise seems, like, so intentional. Because when they do evolve it beyond that, it's like they have to start comparing it to what else has been happening. Like, if they stay in that rigid sort of like what Pokemon is, quote unquote, then there's a lot of ways in which they don't have to evolve because it's like, no, this is what Pokemon. This is. Like, it doesn't have. You don't have to compare it to modern games because this is a Pokemon game. So, like, it's a deliberate thing. But when you start putting it in a 3D environment, then I think it's very natural to start comparing it to other 3D environments and saying, like, this really can't compare. I mean, it does not look like a modern game.

[Russ Frushtick]

I think there are. So it has been in 3D for quite a while. This is not a new thing that it's a 3D game. It's worth knowing that the latest Pokemon games that have been in 3D, like the last several, have run like fiery dog shit, including Arceus, did not run great. Like, it ran pretty poorly. The fact that this is able to run relatively steady on a Switch 1 and then at 60fps on a Switch 2, I think it's possible that some of the design decisions that they made, in addition to what we were just talking about, was also, this is the only way we can get this fucking game running properly. Because I don't think the engine is very good. So I think there is. They're making some decisions there as well.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

I think that, like, fans of the game would agree with you. Hoops generally on the. While they're not putting a ton of money into this, and it is kind of repeating the same thing over and over again. But there's a reason that people keep coming back to these things, which is the Pokemon are very cute and cool and interesting. Or maybe the story is, like, fresh. What about this one? Are you, like, it works here versus.

[Russ Frushtick]

Okay, so this is the thing that I can't necessarily explain to someone like Justin, who I can try, but you're gonna have to put yourself in the shoes of someone that grew up with Pokemon, which I know you didn't.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Correct.

[Justin McElroy]

So try to pretend to be like my brother.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, try to pretend to be your brother. So when you look at a Pokemon game, you're kind of taking it at face value, which is to say, like, taking it just as a gameplay experience. You have no super.

[Justin McElroy]

Well, first of all, I'm super horny.

[Russ Frushtick]

Super. Oh, yeah.

[Justin McElroy]

Because I'm Gretchen. Sorry, go ahead. And I'm super horny and. Sorry, go ahead. I won't interrupt you.

[Russ Frushtick]

No, it's fine. So you're taking it at face value, looking at gameplay mechanics, things like that. When I see Tepig, there is a surge of enthusiasm that runs through my veins that has been in there since the dawn of time. So it is tapping into that nostalgia in a way that someone who didn't grow up with it would have no association with whatsoever. And that keeps happening over and over again, because as you're walking through the city, oh, shit, there's fucking Haunter. Or there's a giant version of Haunter. And that's really exciting. I'm going to go catch it.

[Justin McElroy]

So there I. Russ, I'm kind of. My feelings are a little bit hurt that you think just because I don't like Pokemon, I don't understand the idea of being a sucker. Like, I understand being a sucker. Just say I'm a sucker.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, imagine being a sucker.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Hoops. Hoops. You gotta go back to Horny Griffin. I'll give you a copy of a statue.

[Justin McElroy]

No, he's a sucker, too. He's just not on the call. I can't bully him. I'll call him later and blame him if you want.

[Russ Frushtick]

I agree that there is 100% A. We are taking advantage of the nostalgia to sell toys or sell games or whatever it is. But it is checking the box for me in ways that, like, no Pokemon game of the last several years has.

[Justin McElroy]

Done for me, I guess. But, like, why? I'm just curious why, like, what is the.

[Russ Frushtick]

I think the introduction of the new gameplay, in a way, it. Like the fact that it's actually. And. And then you throw in the fact that, like, I'm directly controlling all these Pokemon, that I have an Emotional connection with. Works for me in ways.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

And it actually runs well this time. And it was like, Arceus was a great proof of concept, this.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, it's real. I mean.

[Justin McElroy]

And you liked Arceus. Did you stick with Arceus, Russ? Did you? I didn't put a lot of time into.

[Russ Frushtick]

No, because it ran like shit. That was my big sticking point with it. It's also worth remembering. And we've said this before, but I will reiterate it. These games are made for kids. And when I play with my child, who's four, he loves it. He loves watching. He loves asking me to catch certain Pokemon. He loves asking me what types of Pokemon they are. And I do think for that sort of youngster, I would say from like, 4 to 10, this is like fucking pure catnip. And the simplicity of the world that we see is like, oh, this is basic ass shit. Is actually. Well, for them.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It's legible.

[Justin McElroy]

No, it's a great point. You know what, Russ? It's a really good. That's so good to remember. And it really should be. The start and the beginning of these. Like, the start and the end of these discussions is like, they are contextualizing experience that kids should be able to continue to have just because they are getting older and time is evolving. Like, they should be able to have, like, their own version of it without adults being, like. Time to add guns.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah. Or even time to add, like, the complexity of, like, oh, breeding and SP rates and whatever the fuck else that get added in the main line. The main line is so heavy with that stuff now. And this is really a. How do you raise the friendship of a Pokemon in this game? You take them to a cafe and you drink tea with them. That's how you do it.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Just so you know, Hoops, next week, we will be playing. I want to make sure I get the title right. Digimon Story Time Stranger. So I figured you probably want to make like, 50, 60 hours for that. If Griffin has not started playing this, actually, honestly, I will be crushed. I really want to know what he thinks about the Digimon game, because somebody is coming just a little bit for that Pokemon lunch. They're ready to try it out.

[Russ Frushtick]

Just to put a bow on this. I think for people that really liked Arceus, they'll probably walk away really happy here. I think for people that are lapsed Pokemon fans, they might find something interesting here. You should watch some gameplay and see if it would be compelling to you. Is this a game? I'm gonna spend 60 fucking hours on. No, absolutely not. Would I be playing more of it if my son weren't super invested in it? Probably not. I. I think it's interesting. I like the way this is going. I would love to see this scaled out into a more full featured Pokemon game. But right now it feels like they are moving in the right direction, but still not quite there yet. But still I've been enjoying it.

[Justin McElroy]

I'll also say the simplicity of the design does help to make the action more legible because there's a lot going on once you get several Pokemon cooking here. I'm watching in like gameplay footage.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, it's easy to kind of understand, you know, types and the attacks you have available to you. There's really. The HUD is actually pretty clean, all things considered.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Hey, should we take a quick break and then come back and talk about a lighthouse that came to life?

[Russ Frushtick]

A lifehouse.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

That's nice.

[Justin McElroy]

Keeper is the new game from Double Fine. It is directed by Lee Petty, who's done art on many, many Double Fine games, but he was the lead on stacking Headlander, Headlander and Rad, which I did not play Rad, but I don't know why I didn't play Rad. It looks like it was a roguelike where like a post apocalypse roguelike with kids in it. I didn't play rad, so I don't know what the deal is with Rad, but it has been, I guess, six years since Rad. And this is the next game that, like, Lee Petty was the sort of like, lead on, which I don't. I know we don't mention on a lot of games. I only kind of mentioned because I feel like Tim Schaefer and Double Fine are sort of some of the very last, like, studios that can still hang a name to a game. And I feel like Double Fine is kind of able to do that with Lee Petty just. Just because they've been able to. They have done it repeatedly.

[Russ Frushtick]

So it's also interesting because this came up a little bit. If you watch Double Fine, the documentary, what was it called? The Double Fine Journey, whatever that was on YouTube. This came up because they ended up at one point pulling team members from this game into the Psychonauts development to make sure that it actually came out. So this game was massively delayed because of the scale of the Psychonauts project.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Also tied to the Double Fine documentary. The Double Fine documentarian, who then turns into a game designer midway through the documentary, worked on this game too, I believe.

[Justin McElroy]

So it is a game where you are A lighthouse that is animated through some sort of magic that is not really explained to you, but you are clearly like sentient. There is a relationship, it is a. You are personifying this lighthouse in a sense. Right. There are legs, there's the light, which is sort of a face and an all purpose eye. There's not a ton of emotion that is being communicated by that light. But there is a lot through the physicality of this lighthouse which is not really designed to be ambulating around the environment. So whenever you see the lighthouse moving, like whenever you're controlling it, it always feels like you're just on the edge of like toppling over. It's that. That kind of movement walking around. Yeah, exactly. And that's much more prominent like early on. So it's not really about like control fidelity, but it isn't trying to like intentionally sort of like make it unpleasant to control. It's just not a mechanically like super dense game. The main thing that you're doing as you sort of like make your way through the environment and you are led by, I don't know, there's not really an overall sort of like thing that seems to be pulling you through. It's a journey, but you're not really sure like sort of where you're headed. It's a very sort of like shaggy dog sort of thing.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It's a walking simulator in like the truest sense of the word. Not as negative. Like if we think of that as a genre, it is moving forward from point A to point B with just the lightest amount of puzzles. Between point A and point B, I would say.

[Justin McElroy]

I mean, God, I hate using that term, honestly, plant, because I do feel like it is so dismissive. And I actually don't think is. For me, that's a much more narrative thing. A walking simulator. I think there's a lot of story that's tied to that. And this is super. Not that. In fact, I would say that like any attempts to sort of like project narrative onto it, it is working pretty hard to.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It wants feelings, not stories.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah, for sure. And the way that you interact with the world as the lighthouse is really mainly shining a light. You're projecting your light and you can intensify it and focus on something. But that is the main thing you're doing in the environment now. You can classic video game stuff. You kill bad plants that have grown over things with your sunlight. You know, that kind of deal. But you also have this bird that flies around with you and hangs out on the lighthouse and will like Help you with like switches and will follow your instructions to go like do some mild interactions and do some like puzzle solving that way. So like there are. It is not just a, like you know, floating through an amorphous environment, like pinging up. There's actual puzzles. You're flipping switches and doing levers and stuff.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

When I say walking simulator, I mean I wish there was a better term for this, but it's a showcase for something other than the gameplay. So most walking simulators or whatever we want to call these. Yeah, it's typically a showcase for narrative here. This is a showcase for art. It is like a beautiful picture book or art book, coffee table book you.

[Justin McElroy]

Keep on your table, parallel sword of the sea, um, that, that sort of thing. I think sort of the scene is a lot more fluid than this. But like that fluidity is part of what they want you to experience in the aesthetics. And this is very much about like letting you make your way through a really outrageously, generously gorgeous world.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

And they do a few things to emphasize that one is. Yet it's just changing from moment to moment. The sheer variety of, of things that you will see in this game is incredible. I cannot imagine how much time they spent just making these spaces.

[Justin McElroy]

I never stop in games. I don't like, I don't stop in games to look. But like I actually a couple times like went back like, did I just. Hold on, I gotta go look at that again. Because there's like background and foreground. Like you couldn't take it all in as design.

[Russ Frushtick]

Like you have to like vistas, we're.

[Justin McElroy]

Talking about vistas, but like the depth of things. And it's not just that, the density. And also there, there are very few pinnings to our world in the aesthetics of this world. Right. So it's not like you're seeing. It's not like there's trees, but they're pink. It's like you, you will walk through what appears to be a, A you know, a hundred yard field of taffy that like will pull and stretch with you. And like the world is so unlike what you have seen. You can't just like parse it as you're going through. You really have to like stop and look.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

What's the Lovecraft phase phrase? It's like non Euclidean architecture or something. It looks like of a different.

[Russ Frushtick]

Like a dreamscape.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yes.

[Justin McElroy]

But like very tangible, so alien and foreign. Like it reminds kind of like if you watch Scavenger's Reign, like the way the biology of that show is like so foreign to ours that it was almost kind of hard to grok. This is like that. Like you are. It is so much about the aesthetics of what you are seeing, like the beauty and the way it all interacts together.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

They do two other things to emphasize. Again, this is a game about looking. One, the camera is more like a classic Resident Evil type of thing, where it is positioning itself so it's really controlled visuals. They want you to see the world in this way. They also, in theory, need to do it because the way you control your character, you're controlling the light on the lighthouse, which is the second part of if you want to make a game about looking. And the idea of, like spotlighting wherever you're looking, making a game about a lighthouse is the way that you do that. So you are quite literally focusing the lighthouse, your character, on the objects around you. And some of that is to solve puzzles. A lot of that is just to see the world.

[Russ Frushtick]

Justin, you're a good chunk into it, correct? Yeah. So what you've described so far is like something that doesn't. Sounds like it doesn't necessarily evolve from a gameplay standpoint, obviously evolves from a visual standpoint. Is that the case or do they throw in curveballs as you're progressing through it?

[Justin McElroy]

No, there's definitely curveballs. I just did a pretty. I mean, pretty chunky platforming level. Like it. And I. I don't know how it evolves beyond that. Like, it is definitely. It is one of those games where a closer to say, like, the mechanics are pretty light, but once you get one, it moves. It just. It dispenses with. It moves on and teaches. Sure.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah.

[Justin McElroy]

Like, it's. It's very fat, very fluid in that sense.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It evolves more too. But to go into any greater detail would be to spoil kind of the fun because the whole magic is the like, oh, this is the thing that is happening for these five to 15 minutes. But I will say, like, it evolves a good deal past what it starts as. It's always the same. It's always about moving forward. It's all about being in these worlds. But the way that you do that changes.

[Justin McElroy]

I will say also that this is, for me, I think, the thing that is most notable about Keeper and this is. You know, it's weird thinking about this as a Double Fine game because for me, Double Fine has always been so present throughout my entire, like, career in game journalism. But it really. It's been four years since the last released from Double fine. It's been four years in Psychonauts 2. But I was thinking about this is the first game from them that I can remember that is not in some way a humorous. Like it's not in some way. Even if it's not a direct like joke or a joke filled game, there's like an irony or a cool or like a silly or like you're looking for the wink in almost everything. And I feel like a part of that is like the DNA of Tim Schaefer bringing over from like lucasarts and you know, his, his comedy background there. I feel like that was a huge part of the Double Fine DNA. And I not complaining about it, but it is really like there is a strength of the convictions that this game has that it is not trying to be funny at all and it's not trying to be cute or even winky. It's like it's really earnestly expecting you to engage with it in a really direct way without trying to be cute about what it's doing or ironic about it. Which I think is really, really, really laudable for the studio.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

That is such a great point. And also I'm realizing this is their Wall E or at least the first 30 minutes of wall essentially these silly, light, fun things. And now here's this. We're all getting older. We're all thinking about death. I mean, you could call it their Toy Story 4. Another thing that's not really super funny.

[Justin McElroy]

Whatever, man.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

FORKY Toy Story 4 Rock. I love that movie so much.

[Justin McElroy]

No, it's a great movie. But you're right, but it's. But there. But like even that is a comedy, right?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah.

[Justin McElroy]

This is saying this is like this really earnestly. It is not using. I think sometimes comedy, you know, games can lean on that. And it's like, well, you can't take anything we're doing too seriously because it's a. It's a joke game.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It's a goof.

[Justin McElroy]

It's a goof. And this is really. Not that it feels like. I mean, I don't want to overstate it, but like I don't. I can't think of a lot of American made games that have gotten this close to like a Miyazaki sort of vibe.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

But that's.

[Justin McElroy]

That's where it's sitting for me.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Or what's his name? The French Otherworld. Oh my gosh.

[Justin McElroy]

Borat. He's not. Yeah, he's Chris.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah. No, he's not French.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Who made that game?

[Justin McElroy]

Where did you think Borat is French? Is it cuz Sasha Baron Cohen?

[Russ Frushtick]

It sounds like A French guy.

[Justin McElroy]

He does do French accents in a lot of movies, but no, he's not French. He's Borat.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It's gonna come to me.

[Justin McElroy]

Great success. It doesn't even sound French.

[Russ Frushtick]

This is very exciting. I spent so much time in the Pokemon Legends world that I didn't get to play this game this week. But I actually really am jazzed about it in hearing about it now.

[Justin McElroy]

I will say this. It is really a game that, like, it doesn't play great on the. We have heard anecdotally and personally, it is not great on the handhelds, but I would really say, like, don't. Don't play it on.

[Russ Frushtick]

You want it on a big screen.

[Justin McElroy]

Don'T put it on the big, big screen. Plug it in and then, like, do the whole thing. Like, do it. Turn the lights down low, light a candle, you know, get some massage oil and just really enjoy it. You know what I mean? Get in there and Chris, your window.

[Russ Frushtick]

For the French person has lost. It's gone.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

No, it's Eric Chahi.

[Russ Frushtick]

Come back.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Eric Chahi.

[Justin McElroy]

Damn, that's good. But my point about how it. Being an American, the closest American has gotten, like, still stands in. Cause Eric Chahi's French.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah, that's. I was making it. Translation to Anonymous. I was helping. I was building. Okay.

[Justin McElroy]

Keeper is. It's really, really. It's really good. And it is. If I, you know, you mention it and I'm. I'll. I'll. Because you were talking about people getting older or whatever. I will say this is a level of craft with game design where like. And maybe I'm probably too quick to attribute that to double fine because of the documentaries, in part because I've seen, you know, those so richly detail the amount of care and love and work that goes into every element of their games because they're documenting it. Right. So I have more of a sense of it maybe with the studio. But I will say there is a. There is a craft to making you feel things with game design that is not numbers based. That is not getting better damage, that is not getting a better weapon. That is not just progressing. Right. It is that, like, how do you make a game that rewards play and just, like, feels good to experiment with? And. And that is what is here. That is what this game has to offer. If you can slow down to engage with it. It is not a addictive experience. It is something you can really enjoy and rewards that enjoyment and rewards that with, I think, more depth and more understanding. And if you look for it a Lot more concrete story beneath the surface if you want to go searching for it. There's also a lot in achievement text and things like that where they're like fleshing out backstory and things like that if you're interested.

[Russ Frushtick]

I love that.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah, it's cool. Very cool.

[Russ Frushtick]

Cool. We have some reader mail to go through if you guys are interested.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah.

[Russ Frushtick]

This one comes from Lily J. I am a second year college student studying music composition and my professor was one of the people hired to write the music for the radio stations in the outer worlds too. Which is something Justin, you remember you talked about last week.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah.

[Russ Frushtick]

He told me about the process behind it and they basically set had a set of composers hired by composer hired by the studio and he was basically told you have two weeks to make 80 songs, which they were cut down to like eight to 10 that actually made it in the game. Having talked to him as well as the composer of Avowed, I have learned just how much of a clusterfuck their words it is to write music for a huge game like this. And it's something that is rarely talked about. Often composers have very little say into how their music is used and are directed very vaguely with extremely limited time to finish their work. I thought you might find this interesting given the conversation about radio music in the last episode, specifically where Justin was wishing that they had more music. I guess they didn't make more music.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah.

[Russ Frushtick]

Also, in case you're wondering, he did specifically did the music for the math people, where all the songs are about math.

[Justin McElroy]

I mean, those are all great songs and they're great. It's like. And if I could clarify that complaint, it is not so much that I wanted more of it, it's that they are good enough that you notice them. And once you notice them, you notice them when they loop after 30 minutes. Because they are good. Because they get in your head and you do stop and take notice. And it's not like welcome to the Jungle where like I can listen to welcome to the jungle 100 times and I'm not going to notice. Welcome to the Jungle is on.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, good.

[Justin McElroy]

Very interesting.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, very interesting. This letter comes from Chloe R. Hi besties. Big fan of the show and post games of course. I am wondering if you can speak a bit about how you choose the games to feature in each episode. I know you are enjoying some Hades 2, my game of the year for sure. As well as some other big releases like what was that? Kingdom come, Deliverance 2, we'll talk about it. So I'm curious What makes you pass on a particular game? Is it purely a time constraint issue or is there more strategy involved behind the scenes?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Okay, I want to go deep on the Hades 2 because we get a lot of comments and emails asking us why we have not spent a full additional episode on Hades 2.

[Russ Frushtick]

So I have gone through several periods of loving Hades 2 since it hit 1.0, and I am currently in yet another one. The challenge I have, and Justin, as the person who spent more time playing Hades games than anyone else, the challenge that I have. I don't know how to speak about Hades 2 in an interesting way beyond. Holy shit. This game is amazing. And we could talk about the gameplay mechanics a little bit, but like, I don't.

[Justin McElroy]

It's. I mean, Hades 2 is kind of a specific example, but, like, it has evolved a lot over time. I will say that it has evolved over years. And speaking to it like, there is an expectation that we are able to speak about games authoritatively. And even as somebody who has followed Hades 2 religiously, it is really hard for me to speak to. The chronology of this is how it is different now from how it was at the beginning. So, like, trying to speak to people, no matter where they got on or off, like, trying to be something that is useful to people without knowing how much of it they played or their awareness is really tough because it's such a long story.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

The problem I have is I really enjoy Hades II whenever. Whenever I'm playing it, right? I enjoy Hades one more. I enjoy the combat more. I enjoy the story, certainly more. That's a really bad, boring take that. I don't want to go too much further into because it's like, man, I sure do love this 9 out of 10, but it's not a 10 out of 10 that the other one was. And I feel like it's. For me, it's really hard to talk about Hades 2 without talking about Hades 1. And if I just talk about it on its own, it's just kind of repeating a lot of things that I feel like I've said about these games a million times. It's a great game, but there's. There's weirdly little that I feel like a pressure to say about it.

[Justin McElroy]

I will say this, and maybe we. I don't know, as somebody who has returned to it several times, and I think that it is overburdened by systems and currencies in a way that betrays how long it was in development for. I think that if you try to get on at this point, There is so much cruft in there that is like just kind of very plainly giving reasons for you to make multiple runs at it. That is like, I don't feel like a lot of it feels super rewarding to me. And that is. And again, I don't know that that's that interesting because the other half of that conversation is I definitely, definitely, definitely played too much of this game before there was enough to really engage with because I was excited for it and I don't feel like I'm a bad guy for that. But it is my experience.

[Russ Frushtick]

So I think I played about five hours in early access, give or take. And which is to say not very much. I wouldn't say like a ton. Enough to like, know what was going on in the game. And I think the game, if you started at 1.0, that is the best possible experience you could have had. Playing the game before 1.0 and then leaving it for a year and then coming back to it is not as good of an experience because all of the mechanics and currencies that Justin is talking about, I do think they do a pretty good job of like easing you into that stuff such that it is cogent. I also agree, you're right. Some of it just feels like, well, you got to make another run to get this currency, to get the thing. To get the thing. Like that is fair.

[Justin McElroy]

Right around the time that hades went to 1.0, deep rock galactic survivor went to 1.0. And something that was really smart that they did is I saw that it went to 1.0 and when I booted it up, there was a very clear delineation between your pre 1.0 save and starting a new save. They were like very much like 1.0. Start a new game, you're going to want to do that. And here's why. We've like, we have made it so that like, you don't want to worry about any of that other shit. Like we've reset all that economy stuff so it wouldn't make sense for you to like get back into that save. Besides, you started playing this game a year and a half ago. You don't remember any of this shit and it's all all different anyway, so you should restart it. Hades did not. Hades 2 did not encourage that. And it would terrify me to do that because I don't remember how boring this stuff is. I don't remember how much I have and have it done. I don't remember what I will and will not remember. I have no idea I don't know if I want to go do that again, but it really did not incentivize.

[Russ Frushtick]

That I did whatever. It was only five hours, but I did start totally from scratch, and I don't regret it one bit, for what it's worth. But again, you played a lot more than 50 hours.

[Justin McElroy]

I mean, but I spent 200 in Hades 1, so I don't know you.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Do you mind if I went back to the original question?

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah, please.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

What I would say here is when you're listening to the show and first, this is a great question, and I appreciate how it was worded very kindly. When we don't talk about a game, it doesn't inherently mean we don't like it. At the end of the day, when we're making the show, a big part of the games we choose is are we going to have good conversations about them? Are these going to be things that we think you're going to enjoy listening to? And sometimes there are good games that it's like, I don't know, I'm going to end up telling you that Pong is great and then we're done and we need to fill the next 55 minutes. And I think that is a bit of a challenge here. And I think also we tend to favor things that are interesting and surprising to us. To us.

[Russ Frushtick]

To us. Yeah. The writer of this letter mentioned Kingdom Come Deliverance 2, which is a game that all of us tried and all of us found really not fun. And that's not all of us.

[Justin McElroy]

What are you talking about? And I noticed, question, writer, that you referred to it as KDCD2. So I'm assuming you've played quite a bit, because I don't have an acronym for it and you do.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

I liked it quite a bit. I'll probably talk about it more at the end of the year.

[Justin McElroy]

If you were writing me an email about it, would you call it Kingdom Come Deliverance two? Or would you type kd?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Oh, I caught Cocktail two.

[Justin McElroy]

Cocktail two.

[Russ Frushtick]

Okay.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Got it.

[Russ Frushtick]

Perfect.

[Justin McElroy]

I'm just saying there is. There is also this question of, like, there are games that are. The point with that one specifically I wanted to make is that there are games that are very big, that realistically, we have one episode per week, and if it takes a vast amount of time to really get the scope of a game, it could be tough to do an episode about it to get all of us, like, it has to.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Really get its hooks in us.

[Russ Frushtick]

There is one person on this podcast that is capable of doing a it gets good after 15 hours game. And that person is Griffin. He's not here to defend himself, but he's the only person that I think will have any patience to play.

[Justin McElroy]

You will take you. Will you like to get kicked around.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

A little bit on the genre? Like, come on, I'll do this. If you call it Yakuza, I'll be like, yeah, yeah. No, you don't understand. Have to. 50 hours. It's pretty cool.

[Justin McElroy]

Mind things clicking. If it's clicking or like numerical iteration. Like, I've. I've got. We've all got our. Our weak spots.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah.

[Russ Frushtick]

So, yeah, there's a lot of layers to it. Interesting conversation. Time constraint issue. Did we get code early so we can, like, kind of prepare a little bit? There's just a lot of levels.

[Justin McElroy]

Part of it is also, like, once we see a conversation has really taken place outside of the show and it's like, man, a lot of people are talking about this. A lot of times. By the time that has trickled down to us, it's like, well, okay, fine, but like, who gives a. What we have to say at this point?

[Russ Frushtick]

You know, like, the people listening give a. That doesn't.

[Justin McElroy]

No, no, no. But like, you. But the zeitgeist, I'm saying, like, we can't. It's. If it doesn't line up with the zeitgeist, it's not always intentional. It's just like, you know, there's a big conversation about this happening, but, like, we're not intentionally avoiding that conversation.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It's also like, if we're like, you know, the conversation has happened for Hades and it's like, okay, and now we're going to come in and tell you, like, yeah, we generally like it. We don't want to. Yums. Like, that's not going to be a great bow to the conversation.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

What else we got?

[Russ Frushtick]

Last question. This comes from Leo. I'm surprised that Justin King of FMV has not talked about Road to Empress yet.

[Justin McElroy]

Okay, can we talk about this for a second?

[Russ Frushtick]

Sure.

[Justin McElroy]

Can I just, like, I. Yes, yes, I really like FMV games. And yes, when Plant pointed this out to me, I did say, like, yes, I'll go get it. The thing is, what you have to understand is the FMV thing is you still have to play them with your own human time and hands. And like, the people that are using fmv, a lot of them are not doing it for artistic reasons. It's because they don't want to pay for the full version of Blender. You know what I'm saying. I'm not saying that that's the deal with this one, but I can't keep up with every, like, yeah, eastern block developer that gets his hand on a Handycam and wants to.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

This joint does look good, though.

[Justin McElroy]

This one looks good, but it is like, it's a rough tag out there. It is a rough tag on Steam. The FMV tag, it's a rough tag.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

So I get it, man. When I was growing up, somebody like my. My aunt decided that my mom really liked pineapples. Apparently, my mom must have mentioned this offhand. My aunt proceeded to tell all my mom's friends, all of my other relatives, cousins, whoever, and then every holiday, anything, we would just get little pineapple trinkets until I was like 10 when she cleared the house out of this. And I swear to God, literally a month later, my aunt was like, kathy, you love lighthouses, don't you? Well, I've got you a new lighthouse and I let mom know that you love lighthouse.

[Justin McElroy]

I got a game that's absolutely gonna freak ya beat. It's called Keeper. Imagine you're a lighthouse, but you're walking.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Around whole house just full of lighthouse junk and then gets tossed out. Anyway, I was just to say. I know what you mean. You become that person and suddenly people are like, I just love ya. You gotta see this.

[Justin McElroy]

And it is also like. It is also does get a little bit old. I've been doing besties for, you know, what is it, 13 years at this point? And it does get a little bit old to be like, hey guys, look at this fucking piece of detritus I found. Does anybody else care? No. Okay, well, that's my 30 seconds. Like, you get the script right here. Wait, I can do one. Hold on. What's the name of this game? Road to Empress. Guys, I want to tell you real quick about Road to Empress. It's an FMV game that I've been checking out on Steam. And I know that a lot of times these get a rep for, like, not being that great. But, like, if you're into those, if you're into F and P games, I can see that the other two are glazing over. So let me just say that, like, if you're into those and you like that kind of thing, then this is a really good one. But, like, obviously if you don't like these kinds of games, then you're not gonna like it and you shouldn't waste your time. But thank you. Like, check it out.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Who needs AI? You can bash these things out whenever you want.

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah, I've AI'd myself. I've made myself redundant with my own cynicism.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Should we talk about what else we've been playing?

[Russ Frushtick]

Sure.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Okay, good. Because I want to tell you all about a terrible title, but an interesting game, Onirism, which I just don't like the title. It is French.

[Russ Frushtick]

I didn't know how to guess to spell that.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

O, N, I, R, I, S, M. Okay. And if you have been missing kind of a Nintendo 64 platformer or like a Ratchet and Clank or a Jet Force Gemini somewhere around that space, right? Something where you're like, oh, this is a rare game. You hop around, you shoot things, but all your characters are like super Soakers or silly fun guns. You're a little girl in a fantasy dreamland. A little bit of kind of like a little Nemo sort of aesthetic too. It is so big in. So dense. There is so much here. They've been updating this game in early access for forever. So even the game is like, I think 15 bucks. There's like a playground mode. There's an arcade mode where you can do a whole bunch of high score runs of just shooting enemies. There's a humongous story mode where you are going through all these different, again, Nintendo 64 esque levels, but they look like they were made in Unreal Engine 4 or whatever. It is a delight. And if you have a little kid that you are looking for that kind of classic easy onboarding point, it is great, but. And it's the biggest butt on the planet. Please don't cut that.

[Justin McElroy]

I have the biggest butt.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Okay, There we go, baby. We got it.

[Justin McElroy]

And I want to say dang, thank you to Dr. Gonzalez. He put it in for me and he did such an amazing job. I wanted to have the biggest butt on the planet. And now I thank you, Doc.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Oh, my gosh, that cake. This is. Steam needs to rethink what early access is. And are there any way to monitor what a 1.0 is? This is maybe the worst 1.0 I've ever played of a video game. You open the menu and the UI is disastrous. It took me a beat to figure out how to start the game by establishing what difficulty I was playing on, in which mode I was playing on to then begin the game. You get into the game and like, some of the cutscenes don't work. It's really, really, really rough, which is brutal for a game that is meant for kids. Because in its current state, I would be hesitant to hand it to my son because I think he would get frustrated the second something breaks. And what's so weird about it is there is all of this extra stuff and they didn't focus on the basics. And again in that first like 15 minute loop. And it feels, I feel like we're seeing more and more of this with game development now that it's easier to make and you can buy assets and all this stuff. Like you get into this space of oh, our hardcore fans are already passed that 15 minute loop in early access and they just want more and they're giving us ideas. They want new vehicles, they want new weapons, they want new enemies. And we're just going to like churn and churn and churn and make more and more and more. But not considering the fact that like, hey, people are going to play this at like for the first time now. And having all that stuff doesn't really matter if nobody gets past the first 30 minutes. That again. And then here's the contradiction. I bought it. I was excited instantly, extremely frustrated. So ready to cancel. It played through an hour and then I was like hooked. I was in. I had been onboarded. I knew what all of its annoying quirks were. And then I was having a great fun in a Nintendo 64 style game that I have been craving. But woof. I just wish that more of these games, they're gonna say it's a 1.0 launch, actually make it feel like a legit video game. Like these menus feel worse than the games that this is taking inspiration from and that's just like totally not acceptable.

[Russ Frushtick]

Well, I'm glad you got it the shine it deserved.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah.

[Russ Frushtick]

I wanted to call out a stand up routine special that is on YouTube. It's an hour long special by Robbie Hoffman called I'm nerVous it's on YouTube. She is a former Hasidic Jew who is now definitely not a Hasidic Jew and does a very very. It was just like one of the better routines I've seen if you watch the show Hacks. Robbie Hoffman plays with the receptionist in the most recent season of Hacks. So that's where she's from. But tremendously good on YouTube. We can drop it in the newsletter if you want to watch it. Justin, anything?

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah, you know, I watched. I like to watch scary movies this time of year. One of my favorites is the VHS series because I like horror anthologies because they keep you from getting too narratively invested and you don't have to get too bummed out by them. You can Just kind of enjoy the fun of it. And I feel like they're really interesting is like, practices, too. And I think that, like, experiments, I guess you could say. And VHS Halloween has a lot of them that are. Are really fun. It's On Shudder, and this is the eighth VHS movie.

[Russ Frushtick]

I don't actually know anything about this franchise, really.

[Justin McElroy]

So it is a. It's kind of an offshoot of the found footage thing that Paranormal Activity ushered in. But it is like, it kind of takes that concept and like, meditates on it for, like, a series of anthology films. So, like, each one, there's usually like four to five short films. This one has a wide variety. There's like, four or five different stories. Some are a lot more like slasher, kind of like campy horror. Some are downright, like, silly. There's one called Fun Size about a monster that turns people into candy. That's truly ghoulish.

[Russ Frushtick]

Is it like Tales from the Crypt style stuff?

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah, sort of. Yeah. And there's a framing device in this one. It is the framing. There's always a framing device in the VHS movies that, like, tie all the stories together. In this one, it is testing a new diet soda called Diet Phantasma that has horrifying effects. I love it on everyone that tries it. But these are always really fun if you like horror at all. They're always really worth watching. And this is a really fun one. There's several really good stories. I won't tell you about any of them because if you want to watch it, you can. But it's a really good one if.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

You go back and watch these on Shudder, because there are a bunch of them. They're a showcase for both, like, indie talent that doesn't make a lot of movies or makes really indie stuff and cannot usually get funding from big studios or young talent that eventually is going to become famous after making this stuff. Like, it is a way for them, I think, to try out a bunch of filmmakers with horror shorts. Alex Ross Perry, who made Listen Up, Philip and Her Smell and Queen of Earth in this year's Pavement series.

[Justin McElroy]

And Christopher Robin.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Did he make Christopher Robin?

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Really?

[Justin McElroy]

Yeah. Fun fact.

[Russ Frushtick]

That's great.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Wow. That rules. But, yeah, great stuff. Great year for Alex Ross Perry. Two documentaries and a horror short. Damn, it's good.

[Justin McElroy]

It's a really good vhs.

[Russ Frushtick]

Cool. I think we did it. Griffin will probably be back next week. In the meantime, please head on over to the Patreon. We have a new episode of Resties that is live presently. We have A new bracket battles episode that's going up on Tuesday, which is a fun one to record. Wanted to thank a few people over at the patreon. Patreon.com thebesties we have tanner. We have Bader. How do you pronounce that? B A d, R. Bader.

[Justin McElroy]

Bader.

[Russ Frushtick]

Bader. H. We have will. H. And we have God. Why did I put this? Captain bj.

[Justin McElroy]

Captain bj. Welcome aboard.

[Russ Frushtick]

Thank you for.

[Justin McElroy]

He used to be an admiral. That's the sad thing. Yeah, yeah.

[Russ Frushtick]

Sad.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

DJ Blazkowitz.

[Russ Frushtick]

Yeah. Thank you for.

[Justin McElroy]

I think it's Blowjob Chris.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Oh, sorry. Blowjob Blazkowicz.

[Russ Frushtick]

Thank you for being.

[Justin McElroy]

Jumpman is the original name of Mario and the Original name of BJ Blazkowicz is Blowjob Blazkowitz. You don't know this Jumpman. John 3:14. That's the Spartan, right? It's John 3:14.

[Russ Frushtick]

Justin, what are we doing next week?

[Justin McElroy]

Next week we are going to be talking about we got kind of a catch up episode. We got several games to talk about so we will talk about a few different ones. What's the name of the seance one that you sent that looks good?

[Russ Frushtick]

Seance at Blake Manor. I think that's what it's called. That sounds very good.

[Justin McElroy]

And I'm gonna go ahead and play road to Empress because I do like FMV games.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

There it is.

[Russ Frushtick]

There it is.

[Justin McElroy]

Over and over again. And I'm gonna make you listen to it.

[Russ Frushtick]

I love it.

[Justin McElroy]

Kept you waiting. Empress. That's gonna do it for us for this week on besties. Be sure to join us again next time for the besties because shouldn't the world's best friends make the world's best game sa.