UFO 50 with special guest Jason Schreier!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Besties – Episode "UFO 50 with Special Guest Jason Schreier!"

Release Date: September 27, 2024
Hosts: Chris Plante, Griffin McElroy, Justin McElroy, Russ Frushtick
Special Guest: Jason Schreier
Podcast Description: "It's Game of the Year meets King of the Hill as four of Earth's best friends – Griffin McElroy, Justin McElroy, Chris Plante, and Russ Frushtick – rank and review their favorite video games. Because shouldn't the world's best friends pick the world's best games?"

---

1. Introduction to UFO 50

The episode kicks off with Griffin McElroy humorously admitting a mix-up regarding the game of the week. Initially, he discusses "USO 50," a comedy-centric game where players perform for military heroes, which he mentions has a surprising depth by stating, “I did platinum it, so is that worth anything?" (00:19).

Quote:

Griffin McElroy [00:19]: "I did platinum it, so is that worth anything?"

The hosts quickly rectify the confusion, confirming that "UFO 50" is indeed the correct game of the week. They introduce Jason Schreier, a renowned gaming journalist, who humorously interjects into the conversation, highlighting his knack for being present on every call:

Chris Plante [01:14]: "This is how he gets the scoops. He's just on every call."

2. Deep Dive into UFO 50

UFO 50 is an ambitious compilation of 50 retro-style games developed by UFOsoft, a fictional company. The hosts explore the nostalgic essence of the NES era embedded within the collection, discussing how each game reflects the quirky and experimental nature of early video game development.

Notable Games Discussed:

• Barbuda:
  Often criticized by the hosts for its unforgiving gameplay, Russ illustrates its challenging nature:

  Russ Frostchick [16:10]: "The very first game in the package. It is incredibly unwelcoming because you move at a snail's pace..."

  Griffin adds a humorous take on its difficulty:

  Griffin McRoy [08:45]: "I think it's impossible that you can say that authoritatively."

• More Tall:
  Praised for its innovative mechanics, Russ describes it as a side-scrolling platformer where players sacrifice soldiers to create platforms, likening it to "Dark Lemmings."

  Russ Frostchick [20:05]: "It's probably my favorite from a design perspective."

• Pilot Quest:
  A hybrid between idle and strategy games, Justin delves into its complexity and unique timer mechanics:

  Justin Bakker [11:21]: "You should play this one first because it is an idle game, but it only works while you're actively playing the UFO 50."

• Valbrace & Minion Max:
  Griffin and Justin provide insights into these games, emphasizing their depth and engaging gameplay loops.

3. Navigating the 50 Games Challenge

The hosts discuss the inherent challenge of managing and enjoying a collection of 50 distinct games. Justin expresses his struggle with balancing time investment against derived pleasure, questioning the game's design:

Justin Bakker [02:15]: "I think I am in this weird spot where even if I enjoy a game pretty well, I start to think, like, I wonder if I would enjoy other ones more."

Russ shares his strategy of dedicating short play sessions across multiple games to identify favorites, ultimately narrowing his focus to about 15 games:

Russ Frostchick [24:34]: "I went through over the course of several days and played 20 minutes of every game... by the end of the 50 I had about 15 games."

Quote Highlight:

Jason Schreier [13:54]: "It's really cool. It's like a history book."

4. Special Guest: Jason Schreier on Blizzard Entertainment

Jason Schreier takes center stage, discussing his upcoming book, "Play Nice: The Rise, Fall and Future of Blizzard Entertainment." He delves into the intricate history of Blizzard, detailing its golden years, cultural shifts, and the impact of Activision's acquisition.

Key Points:

• Blizzard's Evolution:
  Jason outlines Blizzard's journey from a tight-knit group of childhood friends creating games to a massive corporation grappling with internal and external pressures.

• Activision's Influence:
  He explains the tension between Blizzard's creative autonomy and Activision's corporate demands, particularly highlighting the failed Titan project:

  Jason Schreier [58:04]: "The game that was supposed to be the next big thing from Blizzard... due to mismanagement... was canceled."

• Cultural Dynamics:
  Discussing workplace dynamics, Jason touches on how Blizzard's predominantly male culture faced challenges as the company grew and diversified, leading to cultural and managerial issues.

Quote:

Jason Schreier [55:48]: "It's hard to kind of sum it all up in these sweeping terms, as fun as it is from a narrative point of view."

Additional Highlights:

• Crunch Culture:
  Jason teases a story about the culture of crunch at Blizzard, stating:

  Jason Schreier [43:02]: "I'm working on a story about a culture of crunch@ufosoft."

• Personal Anecdotes:
  The hosts and Jason share light-hearted banter about his reputation in the industry, with Griffins humorously urging him to connect with his wife or girlfriend to divulge more insights.

5. The Hosts' Interactions and Banter

Throughout the episode, the camaraderie among the hosts shines through. They engage in playful teasing, especially directed at Jason Schreier, balancing in-depth discussions with humor.

Examples:

• Justin jokes about Jason being a "press sneak fuck," which evolves into a humorous badge of honor:

  Justin Bakker [59:22]: "If it was me, I'd get a tattoo."

• The hosts also share personal recommendations and discuss other media, such as movies on Netflix, enhancing the episode's conversational flow.

6. Closing Remarks and Future Episodes

As the episode winds down, the hosts thank their patrons and promote upcoming content, including:

• Resties Episode:
  A review of "Dead Rising Remastered."

• Bracket Episode:
  An anticipated segment scheduled for the following month.

• Next Week's Topic:
  Delving into a new Zelda game titled "The Echoes of Wisdom."

Final Quote:

Griffin McRoy [70:53]: "Next week, be sure to join us again for The Besties, because shouldn't the world's best friends pick the world's best games?"

---

Key Takeaways:

• UFO 50's Ambitious Scope:
  The collection offers a nostalgic yet challenging experience, reminiscent of the NES era's experimental spirit.

• Balancing Act:
  Navigating 50 distinct games requires strategic time management and selective focus to fully appreciate each title's uniqueness.

• Jason Schreier's Insights:
  His discussion provides a deep dive into Blizzard Entertainment's complex history, offering listeners a nuanced perspective on one of gaming's most influential companies.

• Engaging Host Dynamics:
  The episode exemplifies the chemistry among The Besties, blending informative dialogue with humor and personal anecdotes.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Griffin McRoy [00:19]: "I did platinum it, so is that worth anything?"
• Chris Plant [01:14]: "This is how he gets the scoops. He's just on every call."
• Russ Frostchick [16:10]: "The very first game in the package. It is incredibly unwelcoming because you move at a snail's pace..."
• Jason Schreier [13:54]: "It's really cool. It's like a history book."
• Jason Schreier [55:48]: "It's hard to kind of sum it all up in these sweeping terms, as fun as it is from a narrative point of view."
• Jason Schreier [43:02]: "I'm working on a story about a culture of crunch@ufosoft."
• Justin Bakker [59:22]: "If it was me, I'd get a tattoo."

---

This episode of The Besties masterfully blends in-depth analysis of the UFO 50 game collection with insightful discussions on gaming industry dynamics, particularly through the lens of Jason Schreier's expertise. The hosts’ engaging interactions and the guest’s contributions provide listeners with both entertainment and valuable information, making it a standout episode for gaming enthusiasts.

Transcript

[Griffin McRoy]

Guys, I messed up so bad. I misread the game we were supposed to be playing this week. And I did play USO 50. And that one is. You play as your favorite comedians. Jane Cook, Bob Hope. Bob Hope.

[Justin Bakker]

Drew Carey. Drew Carey is a good pull.

[Griffin McRoy]

You go around, you perform for all brave military heroes, and you get points for every laugh you get and points for every tear. Because sometimes they say stuff that makes them think of home. But I did platinum it, so is that worth anything?

[Russ Frostchick]

Did you stop all wars by platinuming it?

[Griffin McRoy]

I did tell a joke as Dane Cook that was so good that all war stopped. Okay, that is necessary for the platinum.

[Russ Frostchick]

Can you tell the joke right now?

[Justin Bakker]

Oh, yeah. Did you remember any of the jokes?

[Griffin McRoy]

Well, it's. I mean, it's early, so there's. It's like all you hear is like.

[Justin Bakker]

Eight bit graphics.

[Griffin McRoy]

But like the way the little pixelated thing says it, like it seems like it probably busted him up.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

And it's the 50 because you're going to like 50 different.

[Griffin McRoy]

The game cost 50. The game cost 50. Who is that?

[Jason Schreier]

I just. I just popped up on this call. No, a fifth person is a.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

This is how he gets the scoops. He's just on every call.

[Jason Schreier]

I secretly listen to every podcast before it publishes.

[Russ Frostchick]

Wow. I don't.

[Justin Bakker]

Right there. That was it.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

That was for everybody who's asking. That was Bob Hope. This is a U.S. 50 episode. We are doing it. Bing Crosby.

[Jason Schreier]

Come on right out.

[Russ Frostchick]

Ring a ding ding.

[Jason Schreier]

Ten years ago, we had Bob Hope, Steve Jobs. Now we have no hope. No Jobs, no Mac Drier.

[Griffin McRoy]

Limited to Jimmy, limited access to Najimy. Thanks. Cancel culture.

[Justin Bakker]

My name is Justin Bakker and I know the best games.

[Griffin McRoy]

My name is Griffin McRoy. I know the best 30 to 40 games of the week.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

My name is Christopher Thomas Plant, and I know the best games of the week.

[Russ Frostchick]

My name is Russ Frostchick and I know the best games of the week.

[Justin Bakker]

Welcome to the Besties, where we talk about this latest and greatest in home interaction.

[Jason Schreier]

Wait, I didn't get to go.

[Justin Bakker]

It's if you go last.

[Jason Schreier]

Oh, okay.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah, you're gonna go at the very.

[Justin Bakker]

You go after it. Cause you're such a special. After the credits.

[Jason Schreier]

Gotcha.

[Russ Frostchick]

It's easier to cut out that one.

[Justin Bakker]

And now he's ruined my whole flow. It's Jason Schreier from the Internet.

[Jason Schreier]

Hey, my name is Jason Schreier and I'm here to shill a book.

[Griffin McRoy]

Hell yeah.

[Russ Frostchick]

The Scoop Smith, they call him.

[Justin Bakker]

Yeah, most people write one book and they're like, I get it. Not Jason Schreier. He'll write more. You can't stop him from writing books. What's your. What do you. Let's chill up top and then chill at the end as well.

[Jason Schreier]

And we will shill up top and at the end. It's a shill sandwich here on the besties.

[Justin Bakker]

Yum.

[Jason Schreier]

My new book is called Play Nice the Rise, Fall and Future of Blizzard Entertainment, a video game company.

[Russ Frostchick]

So it's not a weather book.

[Jason Schreier]

It is not a weather book. Although I would love to write a book about the weather. And each page is just a different forecast or like a different day's weather. Has anyone ever written that's called an almanac?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It's an almanac.

[Jason Schreier]

Does it have the weather for each previous day?

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah, it should read up.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Somebody doesn't care about.

[Jason Schreier]

I should become an almanac writer.

[Griffin McRoy]

How many cheat codes for Diablo?

[Jason Schreier]

Is it this one?

[Griffin McRoy]

You got Overwatch, two Pro Strats or what's up?

[Jason Schreier]

We do. It's a guide. It is a guide to all of the Blizzard games. It'll show you how to buy the most cards in Hearthstone.

[Griffin McRoy]

All right.

[Russ Frostchick]

Legendaries.

[Jason Schreier]

Yes. It'll show you. I mean, that's the way to win in Blizzard games these days is just spend the most money.

[Russ Frostchick]

And that pro tip comes straight from Bobby, right?

[Justin Bakker]

You do an audiobook?

[Jason Schreier]

We do have an audiobook. It is not me reading it. It is Ray Chase, best known as the subway announcer in Persona 5. Also like Noctis in Final Fantasy or whatever. But he also.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah, the others have too.

[Justin Bakker]

Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah.

[Russ Frostchick]

For a second I thought you got the stand clear, the closing doors guy, which would have been really impressive.

[Justin Bakker]

Holy crap.

[Jason Schreier]

That would have been great. Stand clear of video game news.

[Griffin McRoy]

Well, don't knock. Don't knock this book till you've tried it.

[Justin Bakker]

Okay, so we didn't. I forgot that this is the way it works. Is I say the name of the game.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah.

[Russ Frostchick]

We're also talking about a video game.

[Justin Bakker]

That hasn't happened this week. We're talking about UFO 50. Chris Plant. What's that in detail?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

UFO 50, Derek, you, John Perry, many other developers. They are all back because they said what if Instead of making one video game, we made 50? What if the experience of signing onto Steam could be a video game, but make it the nes. And we're gonna talk about it right after the break.

[Justin Bakker]

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[Griffin McRoy]

Can we get a like 1 minute long synopsis of the history? Cause I feel like this has been a known quantity for me, even though I haven't followed it. I do podcasts with people who have followed it very, very closely.

[Justin Bakker]

Jason, you were probably there when they came up for the idea. Like what, how did you.

[Griffin McRoy]

Well, you just started.

[Jason Schreier]

I was on their podcast as they like listening. Yeah, it's a cool thing. It's like Derek Yu and this guy John Perry who Chris mentioned before. They're these childhood friends who grew up together making games. And they had this wild, ambitious idea to do this compilation of 50 games and brought in a bunch of other designers to help out as well. And the concept is really cool. It's like this idea is that there was this console in the 1980s that none of us had heard of called the LX and this company called Ufosoft that actually made 50 games back then and now we're discovering them for the first time and there's an entire fictional backstory behind the company. And when you open up the game, you get the selection screen, the 8 bit steam, as Chris said, and you can look at the description for each of these games and it'll give you like a little tidbit about when it was made and like some funny, pithy description. Like the designer, like did this on his own in his attic for a year or something like that. And it's super fun. It's really cool to just kind of dig into.

[Russ Frostchick]

I also heard because I know for sure Derek got started in making these smaller games on like Tig Source and things like that. And kind of got to the point where he felt like selling those sorts of smaller games wasn't a viable property. And maybe the approach was to sort of bundle them all together to make it like more of a cohesive product that people would actually buy.

[Griffin McRoy]

I love what an analog the whole package is to basically the progression of games development on the nes. Like, the first game that is on the list is called Barbuda. It's probably going to be a fevered point of conversation in this very call because I think it's the worst game in the collection. And I know Russ Barry loves it.

[Justin Bakker]

It's impossible that you can say that authoritatively.

[Griffin McRoy]

It is so rough and so slow and so chunky and it looks so bad compared to the later games in the collection. And that is because when the NES came out, people were like, so it's just like a stronger Commodore 64, right? We're just going to keep making our shitty Commodore 64 games on it, right? And so for like the beginning of the NES history, you get these like, pretty rough Mario kits.

[Justin Bakker]

I will say the NES thing, the NES thing, to me, I understand the easy comparison there and it makes sense. Some of this is like that, but to me, and we did not have one of these growing up, but to me, what it feels like is a Commodore 64 where like you had these. This scale of game that didn't have to be complete, beginning, middle and end. I'm thinking of like, for example, there's one game in the collection where you are hosting a party. And each part that game's good. You're called Party House. Party House. You're hosting a party and there's different types of guests you can get on your roster and you don't know who's going to show up when you answer the door, but you're sort of deck building where the guests can give you like more popularity that you can recruit use to recruit guests or more money that you could use to upgrade your house. And you're like building a Rolodex of people. It wouldn't be a full game, like.

[Griffin McRoy]

But that it is fully five levels and an endless.

[Justin Bakker]

It would be like a computer. Like, I think you would have seen this as like shareware or something like that a long, long time ago.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah, I see what you mean, especially spiritually in terms of the designers that would be making the games. And I think that's that some of these games feel very pre Atari crash and some of them feel very post.

[Griffin McRoy]

Yeah.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

And the type of games that you're talking about are the type of games that were being made when, you know, three people who didn't even. Games weren't a thing. Like, we didn't know what they were. They could be anything. So people were just like, yeah, I'm going to try to create a game about party planning.

[Justin Bakker]

Right.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

And I will make it. And then I think especially the back half of this game becomes much more of the SEGA Master System, the SNES, and a few other kind of variations of. Okay, we know what a video game is. There's actually like, I think like a sequel in this.

[Russ Frostchick]

There's several there.

[Jason Schreier]

A couple Campanella too.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. And the way that you can see those games build, I think kind of.

[Justin Bakker]

Gets crossovers too, where like in Pilot Quest, you are fixing up the ship from the like the shooter type games.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Okay, we have to. We have to talk at least about a few of the games asap. And Pilot Quest is as good of a place as it can.

[Justin Bakker]

Yeah. Pilot Quest is a. Is an idle game in a sense. It's sort of like a hybrid between idle and Startropics. Startropics. Yeah.

[Russ Frostchick]

Say Zelda one for a game that people have actually played.

[Griffin McRoy]

Wow. Okay.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah.

[Griffin McRoy]

People listening to our video game podcast probably don't know about Startropic.

[Justin Bakker]

Yeah. Hey, welcome aboard, everybody. I hope you enjoyed the football games on Sunday. So anyway, it's a cross of Startropics and an idle game where you are leveling up your action. Yo, yo. And then going out and getting more Zordnax or whatever the. And bringing them back and upgrading your camp. And what's cool and kind of neat is that you should play this one first because it is an idle game, but it only works while you're actively playing the UFO 50. So while you are playing other UFO 50 games, the timer is still going up. So it is a. But that's just like, I don't know, that's a really fun idea and that is not something that would have existed at that time period.

[Griffin McRoy]

This is going to be a very difficult game to talk about. Can we just go round the horn and just like rattle off like one of your favorites?

[Justin Bakker]

Yeah.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Let's start with Jason as a guest. I want to hear what you got.

[Jason Schreier]

Have you guys played a Tatrix?

[Russ Frostchick]

Yes, I found it.

[Jason Schreier]

Yes, that's my favorite one.

[Justin Bakker]

Oh really?

[Jason Schreier]

I beat the entire thing.

[Griffin McRoy]

Holy shit.

[Jason Schreier]

24 level campaign. So that is a game. It's kind of like, I don't know, it's like a cross between like chess and like a real time strategy game. I've never played an auto battler, but it kind of feels like an auto battler too. Basically you have. You're playing on two sides. There's a red and the blue. You're on the left, you're the red and you're trying to take out the blue. Unless you play multiplayer, then you can play against two like someone else. And you have little units that get summoned every few seconds and every few seconds they automatically move forward and you have to kind of position them in the optimal way to take out your opponent's little units and then get to his castle to damage it and take away its health. So then you win the game. And it's really, really cool. You have to kind of balance the strategy of like figuring out that you're going to use these shield dudes to block the arrows with this kind of frantic pace that it goes at because you won't have enough time to do everything you want to do each round. You just have to kind of make quick decisions. And it's really fun for someone like me because I'm a big RTS guy. I'm like a Starcraft 2 addict and like grew up playing Warcraft and stuff. And so this is.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Who made those games.

[Jason Schreier]

Oh, a little company called Blizzard that is documented in the upcoming show Play Nice. The Rise, Fall and Future blizzard entertainment available October 8th pre order now. It's really cool. Attach is probably my favorite. And then the other one I really like that I'm sure you guys got into too, is God, what's the name? Vergain or something. It's like Gravity Shift.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Not the. You're not download Trainers one.

[Jason Schreier]

No, it's. Hold on, let me.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Oh, oh, yes. The one where you can invert. It's a Metroid.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah, you flip the gravity.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

You can invert gravity.

[Russ Frostchick]

It's like xxx, whatever. That gave me Vanger.

[Jason Schreier]

Sorry, Vanger. That's the name Vanger.

[Justin Bakker]

What about you? Plant any ones that you really don't?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

I mean, for me, Seaside Drive was my favorite by far.

[Griffin McRoy]

Try and describe that one, because that one's really weird.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

It's such a sick idea. So you are on an autoscroll. It's basically an auto scroll, shmup, in a weird way. But you are in a car stuck to the bottom. And you can shoot up into the air in kind of like 180 directions, or you can shoot behind you or in front of you. The problem is, as you shoot, you lose strength to your bullets. There's like a power gauge at the bottom. And to refill that power gauge, you have to like, slam on the brakes and skid out to the back left of the screen. So you're constantly being motivated to drive fast forward into like, kind of the thrall of the combat while shooting everything and then slam the brakes and reloading.

[Justin Bakker]

Reloading.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Reloading, basically.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

That's a great way of putting it. And it especially has that SEGA look that it's perpetually. Yeah, it's always. Dusk is setting. You happen to be in Malibu. The sky is somehow purple and orange. You know, it's. It's so good.

[Justin Bakker]

Russ, anyone see you? What games?

[Jason Schreier]

What are we doing?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Tell us about the first one that you. That you like, despite it being so fun.

[Russ Frostchick]

So I like. I'm gonna talk about two. You talk about two games. So the first one that I like that is not fun is called Barbuda. It's the very.

[Justin Bakker]

Barbuda is cool.

[Russ Frostchick]

I like the very first game in the package. And it is incredibly unwelcoming because you move at a snail's pace and you have limited lives and there's no saves and there's a giant fucking map. It's like. It's basically. I love Animal. Well, I've talked about it a million times. It is like if Animal well was made back then, because the game is 90 years ago. The game is filled with secrets and hidden little things that you really have to, like, examine the environment very carefully. But because there's no saving and limited lives and things like that, you start from scratch. If you die all the way.

[Justin Bakker]

When you start Barbuda, you can walk to the left or to the right, and if you walk to the left, the game begins. If you walk to the right, the very first thing that happens is you hit a trap and part of ceiling falls down, kills you, like instantly. Like, if you walk, if you do the very first thing that you instinctually do in video games, you will die instantly. And I normally hate stuff like this, but it's so brutal that I found it intriguing because it's not like it's hard, it's, like, impossible, unless you're doing exactly what you need to do, in which case you start to get these little cracks, like, you start to chip away, these little, like, okay, wait a minute. If I'm able to do this, then maybe. Because even the way to proceed is not clear.

[Griffin McRoy]

I think it's genuinely quite bold that this collection starts with Barbuda, because it is. There's a lot of purposeful antiquity in a lot of these games designs, right? And I think some of the games suffer for it, but as a whole sort of, like, picture, if you look at it comprehensively, it's really, really interesting what they've done here. Barbuda is the most antiquated, the most punishing.

[Justin Bakker]

Here's a theory, though. What if they don't want you to stay too long in one game? Like, the whole, I bounce off our boot after two tries, you go try something else, right? I think it's intentional. It's like, yeah, okay, not every game's for everybody, right? Clearly you didn't like that one, but I was terrified.

[Griffin McRoy]

I was like, if they're all like this, and we've been, like, bumping this game up, like, excited about talking about this game, and they're all like this, holy shit, there's gonna be a bloodbath.

[Russ Frostchick]

I think that's an important note because I do think a lot of people have said, oh, a lot of these games are designed like it's a fun experiment, but it's not really a fun game or meant to be fun. And I don't think that's true of these games. I do think that they demaked them to some extent to, like, pay homage to the era. But I also think a lot of that is, like, part of the design is the tension of, like, every pixel mattering in Barbuda, to the point where I spent, like, three hours playing that game. Like, I did not put it down for a while.

[Griffin McRoy]

That's crazy. That's crazy.

[Jason Schreier]

There is something enjoyable about finding the secrets. And I think one key thing, I think probably the main reason it's the first one is because it's kind of teaching you that there's more to this whole experience than what's on the surface. And it's very much like, hey, every single little thing is hidden. There's so many secrets in this. Which is also true of the grander UFO 50 experience, which it turns out has all this crazy metagame stuff where I'm sure you guys saw the terminal. You can enter these codes. The one of them unlocks like a new game. I think players are still trying to figure out everything that's going on in this whole package. My. My theory from the beginning, every time, ever since I first heard about this, is that there's some like backstory that's like gets super like evil and there's some crazy like twist involving the developers.

[Justin Bakker]

I don't want any more games. I don't think it should unlock more games. I think it should get rid of.

[Jason Schreier]

It turns into ufo.

[Russ Frostchick]

I do want to say though, when. When we were talking in DMS about the terminals and I implied that it was going to unlock another 50 games, Chris Plant bought it hook, line and sinker. He was convinced I wouldn't.

[Jason Schreier]

I mean it did take fun.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

I'm sorry. I like joy. I like to dream.

[Griffin McRoy]

Russ, what was your second?

[Russ Frostchick]

Okay, the other game I want to talk about is called More Tall. It is. So it's probably my favorite from a design perspective. And just like playing it, I think it's fucking genius. You basically start. It's a side scrolling platforming game. You have limited lives. You have like 30 lives and you play as these little soldiers that you can sacrifice so you can cause them to explode or you can cause them to turn into stone and you use their corpses as platforms to progress through the level. It has.

[Jason Schreier]

It's like Dark Lemmings.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah, Dark Lemmings.

[Griffin McRoy]

Lemmings is already pretty dark.

[Russ Frostchick]

What's really cool about this is that it has save points at the end of each level so it'll save the number of lives you had so you can go back to previous levels and like try to improve the number of lives. You used to have more lives later on in the run. So that feels very modern to me. But I was kind of blown away. There's a sequel to that even headier and crazier.

[Justin Bakker]

So yeah, I skipped to that one. It's crazy. That one's. No, I played them both, but that one was wild because that one has like different classes so you can sacrifice to create a teleporter, for example.

[Russ Frostchick]

That one does not have a safe system though, so that one is way more punishing. They actually allude to that in the history of the description saying this was the original intent of the game was no saving.

[Jason Schreier]

But if you use the teleporter, that's essentially the same thing for that One.

[Griffin McRoy]

I have two quick ones. One Valbrace, which is a dungeon crawler that sort of like first person perspective. You're going through this maze of corridors and monsters and traps and treasure chests.

[Russ Frostchick]

Kind of like an Ultima thing. Wizardry.

[Griffin McRoy]

Wizardry, yeah. It's. It's very much in that style. When you do get into combat, it kind of turns into punch out. It's not that stationary. You just hit attack over and over again and you and the monster trade blows. You dodge side to side and you can block with a shield and you have to time out your attacks. You can cast spells using these glyphs that you have to like that you will find on walls. And then you have to input with the D pad. It's just fun to play. I've really enjoyed playing it. My other one that is probably my favorite is Minion Max, which is one of the last games that was really neat. Imagine Chip and Dale's Rescue Rangers, where you can run around this very cartoonish world, jump on boxes and pick them up and throw them. That is very much the gameplay loop. But the thing is, you are a girl who has been locked in a small storage cupboard, and that storage cupboard is the world of the game. Because at any time you can hold down and you will shrink. Now all of a sudden, you are down in this box of the game right now. All of a sudden. That potted plant you were standing on is now enormous and you can explore it. But it's also sort of a search action game because there's a ton of unlockables to find, there's a ton of abilities that you can find, a ton of mysteries to solve and sort of quests. It is a very, very deep game and I don't want to spoil anything, but it goes much, much, much deeper than you would assume after playing it for like a few minutes. I put a few hours into that one and I adore it.

[Jason Schreier]

I feel like that's true of a lot of these games. Much, much deeper than you would expect.

[Griffin McRoy]

Yeah.

[Justin Bakker]

So I'm really struggling with this as a package though. And I think this is something that we have. I think there's so many individual experiences in this collection. They're really, really neat to have. I think I am struggling with the return rate of time that I invest versus the, the, the. The pleasure that I am deriving from the experience. I think that I am. I'm in this weird spot where even if I enjoy a game pretty well, I start to think, like, I wonder if I would enjoy other ones more though I kind of want to see what else is here. And I don't feel really compelled or incentivized to spend too long with any one of the games. And it's like I don't know that the game wants me to do that either. The game seems kind of ambivalent as to whether or not I keep playing them. And so I find it a little bit directionless, I think is because if I spend too much time on any one game, it starts to feel like not all of them can sustain that level of interest. Like not all of them should are worth that.

[Russ Frostchick]

I will tell you what I did to sort of conquer this because I think the Steam comparison is good.

[Justin Bakker]

You conquered.

[Russ Frostchick]

I could conquer. What I did was the first time I played this I basically went through over the course of several days and played 20 minutes of every game, give or take 10 or 20 minutes just to like understand which what they were. And I used the favorites you can favorite games. I use the favorite system to basically say like, oh, this is a game I want to play. This is the game I want to play. And by the end of the 50 I had about 15 games. And what I've been doing since I narrow that down is I just use the favorites list. Like there's a way you can filter by favorites and I've just been bouncing around a few of those and in that process I've spent. I've finished three of them. Porgy is one that I finished and I spent like eight hours playing Porgy. But you really. I think it's better if you limit the field of view because every time you land on that page of 50 games you're like, what the fuck? I'm just going to keep on bouncing around. But I think if you limit the field of view, you end up playing and going a lot deeper into the games. And I do think a lot of them.

[Justin Bakker]

What I'm saying though is a lot of you creating. I understand what you're saying, but I'm hearing you creating a meta structure that should have been in place.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Well, no, I'll build on what Fresh is saying because I agree with both of you. I think this game is a bit of a mood ring about your taste in video games on two levels. One, I think when we are all talking about our favorite 50 video games and how often one of us says a game and the rest of us are like really? That's the one you liked? It reveals what your tastes are. It's not surprising that I picked the action shmup because when you fall in love with one of these games you are having to make way for a lot of problems because they feel like old NES games. You have to make way for the poor controls or the lack of save states. Like in freshest game. Not surprising you liked it. It's a big weird Metroidvania. So like I think if you have ever wanted to figure out what is your taste in video games, you will figure it out on this because you are going to have to be okay with the game being a little incomplete in order to reveal that. But then the second part is I think the game on the top level is really revealing of Russ Frosty type of game players which are people who do not want what you're talking about hoops the like. Here's what the game is. They want the like, okay, it's a mystery and I'm gonna have to create a list and I'm gonna have to write it down and I'm gonna have to text my friends and we're going to figure it out together. And there's a secret code, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera where like I. I aspire to be that person but in reality I am the person who's like signs onto steam and sees 50 games and it's like I would love to play all of those and then I don't play any of them and I like end up playing, I don't know, crazy tax or something.

[Justin Bakker]

This is like. But I guess I feel. I feel like I'm struggling with the fact that this game is leaning into like compulsions and tendencies that I don't necessarily love about myself as somebody who plays games. Right. Like yeah, I would like a slow unravel of these games. So I am in like I. I'm forced. Forced is the wrong word, but. Incentivizes maybe, but like a slow rollout where I can spend time with each of the games individually and figure out which ones are like worth my time and which ones I'm not gonna click with.

[Griffin McRoy]

So the game that I assumed this was going to be like was Retro Game Challenge dx I think is what it was called. Which was a. Yeah, what was that?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

A DX based off the TV show.

[Griffin McRoy]

And it was supposed to be like the game challenge. What is Takashi's Game Channel? I can't remember what the name of the. But anyway, the idea was that like it was this home retro console and there was this like sentient game character who like led you through these fictional classic games and there were like challenges. And as you did good in one, it would unlock the next. And there was very much a progression to it. And that's not the case at all with this game. It is literally drops you and then here's a scream of 50 games on it. Fucking go nuts. I kind of agree with Justin in that I think I would have preferred as a. I don't know, as a structural experience, like some. I mean, any kind of structure, right. Instead, what I've come to kind of realize is like, I have to be. To enjoy this game, to enjoy this experience, because I didn't. Guys, like, I did not really enjoy UFO 50 for the first few hours I played. It just kind of like bouncing around games is like playing a game saying like, well, I didn't like that. So that one's done. I'm moving on from that. Just scrolling through the boxes and seeing like, what's a cool title? Grimstone. Sure. Oh, shit. A Wild West Dragon Quest game. Like, I'm going to play this for. Oh, I liked that. But let's see what else is out there. Like, you have to. Because there is no structure. You do have to make it yourself. And while I would have preferred the other way around, I also think it's like pretty fucking interesting that it's like A. Oh, 100%.

[Justin Bakker]

Yeah. It's not even like a critique, I guess. It's like it's so.

[Griffin McRoy]

It's a warning, right? It's like it's not gonna be. It's not going to be this.

[Russ Frostchick]

There's not gonna hate it.

[Griffin McRoy]

There's a version of this game that is much of this collection rather, that is much more user friendly, right? That would give you any fucking tutorials aside from a jumps and X shoots for any of the games because some of them are fucked up and weird with no sort of. But that is very much kind of what it's going for. And frankly, if you played Spelunky and you expected anything like that from this game, then you are a. Then you are. Did not pay very much attention to the lessons, the hard lessons that Spelunky was trying to teach us.

[Jason Schreier]

I think the real lesson of this game that it's trying to teach us is what it's like to live in a world without games, media, and how important it is to have podcasters and YouTubers and guides to help you discern the wheat from the chaff.

[Griffin McRoy]

It is extremely cool.

[Jason Schreier]

That's the takeaway.

[Justin Bakker]

I like that it's kind of getting on the square, but I 100% agree in. In one sense that I feel like that if I was laying out this collection end to end, and I was saying, like, okay, these are the ones that you would enjoy. These are the ones that may not click as well for you. That experience. If I wasn't a critic or somebody who needed to synthesize my opinion about this package and consume enough of it to have a viewpoint about it, if I didn't have that pressure, I might be. I think I might enjoy it more. Maybe because it does reward the time that you spend poking at stuff. Right. It's not, it's. It's not tossed off. It's not like a 50 shareware games collection. Right. It's. It's like there's a lot more thought input to it than that.

[Russ Frostchick]

I also wanted to mention what's very cool is that because it's 50 games and because they're retro games, there's not really a return on investment for many sites. Polygon is one of these. To write guides for these games, this is not going to be a million billion seller game. And to write guides would require writing like a 50th of the entire game.

[Griffin McRoy]

I looked up Party House deck building strategies today. Like, please, Christ, I can't get past the third level in Party House. Please Google Christ, show me Party House strategy.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah, so you really are kind of alone. I'm sure over time that will change a little bit. But even then you're still digging through like random Reddit posts to get strategies for things. There's not going to be a lot of handholding and help you try to.

[Justin Bakker]

Find information on pilot quests online. It's really fun, actually. It's kind of crazy because there's people just talking about their understanding of it, like their best guesses.

[Jason Schreier]

I want the AI, like, summation of all the UFO 50 strategy guys.

[Griffin McRoy]

It is genuinely cool, though, the kind of community element of seeing a YouTuber I follow, like, get into this game and be like, oh, shit, you gotta play, you know, Mooncat or whatever.

[Jason Schreier]

Well, not Mooncat. No.

[Russ Frostchick]

Moon Cat is the weirdest fucking game in the entire package.

[Griffin McRoy]

Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

And that's like. You guys know the Mario Party minigame where you have to. You're like, spin in a circle and then you have to walk around but do different things. That's what Mooncat is, except the entire game.

[Griffin McRoy]

But this is. I'm going to have this game on my Steam deck, I think probably forever, because I think I've played. I put maybe like seven or eight hours into the whole collection. So Far I still feel like there's games I haven't played yet. I still feel like I'm in the info gathering stage of this thing. And while there are certainly I would say maybe three out of every four games, I play it for a little while. And I say, okay, that's not really my cup of tea. But that still leaves a good 13 full ass games that are in here that I genuinely really do like and want to come back to and spend more time with. And that's crazy.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

And one thing we do, we didn't even mention is some of these games have multiplayer.

[Griffin McRoy]

Oh yeah.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

And some of the multiplayer looks great. Since I was not able to play, I was doing the YouTube thing too. And y'all Waldorf's Journey, I think is what Journey slash the Walrus game. The multiplayer for that game looks like a blast. That was kind of like actually going on YouTube and like watching other people discover it. I was really realizing how much this would be the perfect game when you are a kid and you have friends coming over and you can just pick at it together or when you're in college and you have a dorm and you're sharing the space. But it would be, I think just exponentially better discovering it with somebody in real time. You can kind of get that. I mean, fresh Jason and I have been like talking on the side of like, hey, I saw this thing. But it doesn't capture quite the same magic of like literally being in the same room as you discover. So yeah, yeah, I think it's a really special game. I agree that it has. I found it quite frustrating at first. A thing that you can do if you are not the type of person who likes the surprises and you do not mind spoiling yourself is you can go on to YouTube and you can find a video that is all 50 games described in 50 minutes. So it's like a one minute blurb for each one and like, hey, that can be plenty helpful of at least just showing you like, hey, yeah, I know for a fact I'm gonna like six of these. I'll start with those and then I'll go and hit the rest later because there's definitely something in here for everyone. There truly is. I guarantee there is a game in here.

[Griffin McRoy]

I can't think of a genre that is not like there's a macventure style first person adventure.

[Justin Bakker]

There's a game that's like my favorite NES game. Rescue the Embassy Mission.

[Griffin McRoy]

Yes.

[Justin Bakker]

There's a game where you're having to like do sniper stuff and Then do on the ground stuff.

[Jason Schreier]

It's cool. The point and click adventure one.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

It's like Shadow Gate. Like a modern day.

[Justin Bakker]

Yeah.

[Russ Frostchick]

Night Murder or something like that.

[Griffin McRoy]

No, something manner. Like Nightmare.

[Russ Frostchick]

Night Manner.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah.

[Justin Bakker]

I. It's really. It. It frustrates me. It really does because it makes me feel like I'm. This should be. All the problems that I have with it, I feel like, are like crappy brain tricks that video games have done on me for 15 years. Right. Like, I want. When I was playing the games, you guys know what I really wanted? I. What I really wanted is I wanted, every time I played fucking five minutes of one of these games, I wanted a little coin.

[Russ Frostchick]

You wanted a token to unlock.

[Justin Bakker]

I wanted a chip. Yeah. I wanted a cookie for playing it.

[Jason Schreier]

I mean.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

There are things you got. If you check the descriptions, you can. Like there's a house with like a Tamagotchi thing. I don't really know what the deal is.

[Justin Bakker]

My problem with that is you have to get too deep into the games to get a lot. It's very uneven in time investing.

[Russ Frostchick]

It is inconsistent.

[Justin Bakker]

I think that would have been really smart to do for like a midpoint sort of.

[Russ Frostchick]

Like a lot of them are mid. Like play, like beat the first level.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, some of them. So each one gives you a gift and then a trophy. It's like two different prizes.

[Griffin McRoy]

There's a gold disc you can get.

[Russ Frostchick]

And there's a cherry disc.

[Justin Bakker]

And a lot of those midpoint house gifts, though, you would need to invest several hours to get there.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, for sure. Especially because of the clunky controls and.

[Justin Bakker]

Right. And it's just like. I don't know if I'm gonna enjoy it enough to do that, but I wanted more of that crappy stuff and I don't think it should have that.

[Russ Frostchick]

I think if you.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, I mean, I think the problem with it is that, like, investing into a game is so time consuming because you have to learn the controls and learn the kind of the mechanics and the language of that game in a way that like reading 50 books or watching 50 movies would not be. So it's a lot harder to kind of consume everything in this thing, to enjoy everything in this thing. Because of that barrier. It feels like you're working, you're like doing schoolwork, trying to understand it all. But it also feels to me like we're kind of judging this game after a couple of weeks. And I've also been kind of of two minds on it. Very frustrated at times, very delighted at times. But also it feels like this is the type of game that will be dissected and unpacked and played by people for a year, for multiple years.

[Griffin McRoy]

I think everyone should get. If you like video games, I think you should get UFO 50.

[Justin Bakker]

I think, I think what we're. I think a lot of what we're bumping up against is something that occurred to me while I was playing it and I'm reminded of it now is a lot of these games feel like they were made ambivalent as to whether or not you kept playing them.

[Griffin McRoy]

Right.

[Justin Bakker]

Where like a lot of games have to be. I mean almost every game released has to be this self contained package of like you want to play it for 100 hours and it's got unlockables and it's got all the different things that you could want to keep you playing. Right. They want to keep you hooked. And I feel like this game, these games are a lot more ambivalent about like if you don't want to keep playing this, just go play something else. Like it doesn't. I don't care, you know, which was.

[Russ Frostchick]

True to that era.

[Griffin McRoy]

Right, Right, right. Games now are purposefully quite friction free because as soon as you stop enjoying a game for a second, you stop playing it. Right. But it's. Games of that era were not designed that way. But also this is a collection of 50 games. It doesn't give a shit. If you don't like one of the games, go play one of the other 49 games. Like I agree with you and I do think it's interesting that there's. And frankly kind of rewarding that they are not constantly trying to hook you up to the dopamine trip. Like there is a certain amount of grit your teeth. The first time I beat one of the levels on Party House, I was like, fuck yeah. It was a sense of satisfaction.

[Justin Bakker]

Because I'm gonna need to get some tips from you, man. Cause I.

[Griffin McRoy]

You gotta rush money at the beginning. You gotta rush auctioneers. Get four auctioneers if you can. You gotta try and cancel out your trouble members. You do not want to get these parties busted by the cops. Time wasted.

[Jason Schreier]

Griffin is a lot of parties. Justin, I think you'll appreciate this sequel which I just heard actually Derek, you told me there's a sequel coming and it's gonna have like way more seamless gameplay, collectibles and achievements and towers to climb. It's called Ubisoft 50. I think you'll really enjoy it.

[Justin Bakker]

Ubisoft 5, they only have the budget for five into imps.

[Russ Frostchick]

Oh, wait, wait. The budget kind of slow. It's four now. It's just.

[Justin Bakker]

Okay, okay, but guys, let me hit you with this. What if it was this exact package but all the games were locked inside enemy forts? Okay. And you had to go rescue the games, you had to scan the fort, you had to get all the weapons.

[Griffin McRoy]

Sneak around, stab the games in the neck.

[Justin Bakker]

What if you had to kill the game?

[Griffin McRoy]

Kill the games, Take their skin, make a bag.

[Jason Schreier]

This is. No, this is the Kojima version. Death Stranding 50 is. You have to kill the game.

[Griffin McRoy]

Hey, can I say the thing I like about this game? There's the Quintet games, which was like a super Nintendo era action rpg.

[Jason Schreier]

Now you're speaking my language, Griffin.

[Griffin McRoy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're not connected in terms of like narrative really, but they use like the same sprites and the same sound effects. And it is hysterical when you hear like a death sound in a game from 1984 and then like one of the last games, you still hear them using that same fucking sound. It's genuinely very, very rewarding to kind of see how the whole thing develops. We could talk about this game for hours and hours and hours and hours.

[Justin Bakker]

I would. One thing that I did kind of miss is I know that, Derek, you worked on this with other people. I would love to know. And maybe this isn't the kind of thing they wanted to know. I think when I started reading about it, I was envisioning more like we got a bunch of all of our indie developer friends to each kick in a game to be part of this collection. It's a lot more cogent than that.

[Russ Frostchick]

It's about five or six people.

[Justin Bakker]

But are they all working as. I guess I was curious if it was a team based thing where everybody's kind of pitching in on everything or if it's like more.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yes, from what I understand, Derek and John were like the core team at the beginning. And then at a point they brought in Ojiro Fumoto who was the creator of Danwell and Point P. Fomoto left, I think, to go work on something at Nintendo. This is like back in 2017. And then other people kind of were like coming on like literally working as part of like the team for a while. And then I think that there are like a couple games that are also contribution games. But largely the game is made by like that core team. So some of the games, if you like go to the wiki, you can even see it like, oh, this one was made by like Derek and John together and this one was just Derek, and this one was just John. And this one was.

[Russ Frostchick]

And they have. Don't the credits at the end of the games, like, refer. Like, they have pseudonyms. They're not their real names. Like Benedict Chung Chun was. I assume was Derek, but I'm not sure if that's a one to one.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah, I don't know if those are one to one or not, but that's. It's a good question.

[Griffin McRoy]

I kind of expected the same thing where every time you played a game, it would be like, well, this is clearly the one from this person. This is clearly the one from this person. I'm kind of glad it doesn't go that way because of, like, how I. What I was talking about the sound effects and assets being reused. Like, it really does feel like you are playing a whole console generation's worth of output from a single. From a single developer. And it tells an interesting story, like, about games and about game development of that era, while you are also, you know, collecting Moon Gems or whatever in Pilot Quest.

[Jason Schreier]

I wasn't sure if I was gonna say this, but to give you guys a little bit of an exclusive, I'm actually working on a story about a culture of crunch@ufosoft. And it's gonna be. It's gonna go live in a couple of months.

[Griffin McRoy]

Yeah, no, I'm sorry, Jason. I'm gonna say 50 games of this size over the course of a decade is actually not. That ain't crunch. That's fine.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, good management there.

[Justin Bakker]

Good job, everybody.

[Jason Schreier]

It turns out UFOSoft some real shady.

[Russ Frostchick]

Stuff going on there.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Hey, should we take a break so that Jason can plug his book some more?

[Griffin McRoy]

Yes.

[Justin Bakker]

Yeah, that's the only way for us to get some more plugs is to keep moving forward in the show.

[Jason Schreier]

Gotta do those plugs.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

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[Griffin McRoy]

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[Russ Frostchick]

Jason, why did you decide to write a book that would make you sad?

[Jason Schreier]

Don't all books make you sad?

[Russ Frostchick]

That's a good point.

[Jason Schreier]

Actually they do. If you wanted to be happy, you would play a video game. Not like sad Read.

[Russ Frostchick]

Here's what I'm saying. I haven't finished yet. I've been reading it for the last few months and I'm about two thirds of the way through. But I do get the sense that there is theoretically for most people, for the leadership at least, a happy period of Blizzard that people kind of forget. And then over the years, I mean you literally group the book this way over the years it hits this point of like diminishing returns and then like a steep drop off in happiness towards the end.

[Jason Schreier]

It depends who you're talking about, the level of happiness. Like there were people at the very beginning of Blizzard, there were people who were very happy and there were people who are not happy. Like with most companies and today working at Blizzard, there are people who are very happy and people are not happy. I mean, it's not kind of, it's hard to kind of sum it all up in these sweeping terms, as fun as it is from a narrative point of view.

[Russ Frostchick]

But it does seem like, I think people look on, and the book is structured this way, look on the period from like whatever the 90s or late 80s, early 90s, to figure like 2008, I guess, as the like heyday of Blizzard. And then there's.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, from a product point of view, which is different. Like the product people, the outside world being happy with the product is different than the people inside being happy. Two kind of parallel, but different track.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yes.

[Griffin McRoy]

From a sort of outside observer, I think the narrative at least is that Blizzard, it was making great games and wasn't the worst company in the world to work at. And then all of a sudden was still making great games. But the quality of life for the people working there started to go down. Then the quality of the games started to go down sort of alongside the quality of the life for the workers. And I don't know how they get out of that.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, well, so it's interesting, okay. If you worked at blizzard in the 90s, the book kind of chronic the whole 33 year saga here, right? And so it's got stories. I actually, when I started working on the book, I figured it would be all modern times. But then as I started talking to people who were there in the 90s, I heard so many wild stories and anecdotes that I was like, oh man, this has to cover the first era too, the first decade or so. And I think if you were there in the 90s, you could say like quality of life. It's interesting. I don't know, you could say a lot about the quality of life, because on one hand you're part of this group of dudes and it was almost entirely dudes at that point who are all close friends. You're going into the office every day in your sandals and your T shirts and you don't have to wear a suit to work. And you're playing video games with them during lunch and playing Magic the Gathering and going to barbecues at night or on the weekends and stuff. So you're all hanging out together, but then at the same time your life is absorbed into work because you are just constantly at work, constantly working, especially StarCraft. StarCraft is the game that everybody talks about as like the most legendary crunch that they ever went through where they were spending like 18 hour days at the office for the course of a year. And Alan Adam, who is the director and president at the time, kept being like, oh, we're just two weeks away from shipping. And that turned into months and months and months of just being like, oh, two weeks away, we're two weeks away, we're two weeks away. So I think that could be like, I think people who were there, they were in their twenties. It was kind of a mix of like excruciating and exhilarating at the same time, where it was super fun but also super awful. And it's certainly not something people could do if they had kids and families and were older. So that's, I mean, I don't know if you would call that like good quality of life. It's certainly one way of approaching work and life. And that's what led to a lot of the kind of classics, the all time favorites, Warcraft 2 and Starcraft and Warcraft 3. And then around the time World of Warcraft came out, that's essentially what changed the company forever in all sorts of ways, both good and bad. That's when the company started to professionalize more. So they grew into a company from a company of hundreds to a company of thousands. A lot more women came in. It still wasn't like a 5050 balance, but it grew closer to like 20% women instead of 1% women. And as that was happening, that's when some of the cultural issues that have been like documented more recently started to pop up because a lot of the dudes, the nerds, were getting rich and famous and women were around and that caused problems. And it was a long time before it felt to women who worked there like they were at a place that was equitable and treated them fairly. Which to be fair, is the case with a Lot of video game companies or like any industry that is mostly men, but it again, it's kind of like its own kind of track, kind of independent from the products. I don't really think that the two are all that connected.

[Russ Frostchick]

I did find it interesting because you mentioned it was in a footnote, the fact that like, you would talk to one person and they'd be like, oh, you already talked to my husband. Because there was so much incestuous thing. Like it was like everyone was dating everyone there. Which I guess makes sense, but is also wild to me.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, because your life is part of. Is your work like that is people spend their entire. They're wearing their Blizzard hoodies, going to Blizzard campus every day, like spending the evenings on like doing clubs on the campus, like the fencing club or the DND club or whatever. And of course you meet your. You meet someone and you're gonna like develop your personal life in that too. The problem with that was, first of all, it was weird how much of it was going on, but also that a lot of people high up in the company were dating people below them in the company. Mike Morheim, CEO and co founder, wound up marrying someone below him who he met at Blizzard. And the list goes on and on from all the names that you know, Chris Metzen and Frank Pierce, and pretty much everybody was at least dating at some point someone who was below them at the company, which created an uncomfortable dynamic for some people.

[Russ Frostchick]

I think the narrative, the gamer narrative, if you will, Capital G, is that Activision ruined Blizzard. Activision came in, the money guys. All they cared about was marketing and money and making more money and stock market prices, whatever it was, and they ruined what was a perfect video game company. Where do you land now on that presumption?

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, I mean, that's so simplified that of course it's not true. I think what actually happened is that. So first of all, Blizzard. Blizzard paired up with Activision in 2007 and they merged. And this was before that, Blizzard had been owned by Vivendi, which had its own set of problems. And before that, it just kept shuffling between corporate parents that were each a disaster for their own reason. One, one of my favorite stories is when they were owned by a company that got investigated by the SEC for massive fraud. And the president at the time that company got sentenced to jail, prosecuted of course by Chris Christie. Just wild, wild stories in this book. So when that happened, things went pretty well for a while. World of Warcraft was still growing. Blizzard was doing well. It was working on these hit Games making a lot of money. And then Titan happened. And the story of Titan will be on polygon.com very shortly, and people can read it there. But essentially, this is the game that was supposed to be the next big thing from Blizzard, the successor to WoW that everyone was waiting for, including Bobby Kotick, the CEO of Activision and Titan. Due to a whole host of factors, mismanagement mostly blew up and did not happen. It was canceled, cost them $80 million. And suddenly Bobby Kotick looked over and was like, hey, what the hell, Blizzard? Like, I give you all this trust, I give you all this autonomy to do your own thing, and this is what you were, rewarded me with this big failure. Now I'm going to have to get some adults in the room and take a larger role in things. And that's what started leading to the quote, unquote, Activision takeover. A Blizzard where more and more Activision people started coming in. The Activision from the very top started putting more pressures on Blizzard and that led to some conflict. And I think the way that I came away from this book and the reporting process thinking about this is that, like, on the spectrum of like, on one side, games are art and we must give them as many years as they take because we can, we have our holy vision and it cannot be compromised. And we must take as much time as we need to to release this thing to the other side of the spectrum, which is games are commodities that must be released every single year because it's time for a new Call of Duty and it has to come out no matter whether it's ready or not. Because we got a commercial with Kobe Bryant in it waiting to air this fall. So you better hit your deadline. You have these two companies that are both on complete opposite sides of that, and they could not find a way to compromise for various reasons and strong personalities, they cannot find a middle ground. So instead, Activision just dragged Blizzard kicking and screaming to their side, or at least try to. Didn't really accomplish what they set out to do in terms of getting Blizzard to release games or WoW expansions, most notably more fast. But the two companies just did not mesh. And so I think you could fairly. I think there will definitely be people who read this book and come away from the takeaway of like, oh, Activision really caused a lot of problems for this company that I loved. But at the same time, I think the book does a lot of detailing of the internal problems of Blizzard that were not caused by Activision at all.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah, I think if someone were to come away and say, oh, it was all Activision's fault. They did not read the book or not carefully at least, because it really makes it very clear that there was a lot of stuff going on. And Titan is really, you're right. The tipping point of we're going to be creative forever and creativity is all that matters. But if you have a failure and it costs $80 million, at a certain point someone's going to need to pump the brakes.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, and it's not just the $80 million, by the way, because, like, if you think about the way these publicly traded companies work, a lot of it is about, like, setting Wall street expectations for the future. So a lot of it is like Bobby being able to promise investors that he has this big new thing coming.

[Russ Frostchick]

Like, hey, and it's going to be a subscription service and you're going to be making this revenue every single month.

[Jason Schreier]

I don't know if it was necessarily subscription that hadn't even gotten to a conversation. Like, the game hadn't even gotten far enough to get to that point. I think at that point, like, free to play was really starting to take over, like 2013 or so. But yes, the idea was like, hey, you know the guys who made World of Warcraft, we are making something even bigger. They are making something even bigger. The next big thing. That's going to be the WOW killer. It's going to be the hottest thing. Because World Warcraft was one of the most lucrative games ever made. And so Bobby wanted to see what was the next from them. And I think you can kind of like, as much as I hate to ask people to empathize with Bobby Kotick, and I think the book details a lot of his quirks, let's say. I think that he was kind of sold on this promise of Titan as the next big thing. And he felt really like Blizzard had betrayed his trust by not delivering on that. And that was a really big deal.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah, he was good in Moneyball, I'll give him that.

[Griffin McRoy]

Excellent in Moneyball.

[Jason Schreier]

Surprised?

[Griffin McRoy]

I am excited to read this book, Jason.

[Justin Bakker]

It is.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah. I think it's a topic that I.

[Griffin McRoy]

Did not know I was as interested in until you just talked about it. And then I was like, oh, yeah, now I do kind of want to know what the fuck was going on.

[Jason Schreier]

I think. Aren't you a WoW player, Griffin? Aren't you? Yes, actually, I recently started again, I'll give you a fun little tidbit. So there was this whole idea within Blizzard that they wanted to release WoW expansions more quickly and if you go back and you look at the history, a lot of which is detailed on joystick, actually unlike the joystick wow kind of subdivision vertical that you guys had. So a lot of history is like Blizzard and Mike Morheim going on earnings calls and be like, we're working on getting WoW expansions out more quickly. And that was just such a big thing for a long time.

[Russ Frostchick]

Bobby wanted it to be annual, basically.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah. But Blizzard did too. There were people at Blizzard who were like, all for like releasing them more quickly. Maybe annual wasn't the right cadence, but at least every 18 months or something, as opposed to every two years, which was the cadence that they could deliver on. And so there was this idea internally and J. Allen Brack, who was the executive producer of wow, he called it to the moon based on JFK's we're going to the Moon speech. And to the Moon was this idea that we're going to release WoW expansions every single year. And they tried so many ways to do that. And Bobby's solution was, you guys need to hire hundreds more developers to make this happen. Because that's what we do with Call of Duty. That's how the machine works, is you throw people at the problem, you have them make content and that's how you make it more quickly. And that didn't work for Blizzard for all sorts of reasons. But like, it was just such a funny, like kind of maybe not funny, but such a. Such a divide between the two companies in that like one just believed in math and like you just put this number of people on a game and you will make it faster. That is how math works. And the other being like, no, this is not how creativity and artwork, that's not how we do things here. And it's just such a strange divide. But to the Moon is one of my favorite corporate slogans.

[Griffin McRoy]

That's so good.

[Russ Frostchick]

Well, this book is great. When can people buy it?

[Jason Schreier]

Thank you. It comes out October 8th, so very soon. People can pre order it now. Comes out in there's hardcover digital audiobook, like I said, Persona 5, subway announcer audiobook. And yeah, I'm pretty proud of it. I hope it resonates with folks once again. It's called Play Nice.

[Justin Bakker]

Do you want to do a nice one now? Don't you think it would be good? I'm worried people will be like, oh, it's Jason calling. He's going to be a stinker about us.

[Jason Schreier]

I think if you read this book, you will not find it to be like a stinker book.

[Justin Bakker]

I Don't. I've never thought you were a stinker. I think you're an incredible professional. I'm saying that people I talk to in the biz say you're kind of a stinker.

[Russ Frostchick]

I think they said you were a press sneak fuck. What did they say?

[Griffin McRoy]

Press sneak fuck. Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah. Justin. Hey, Justin. Why do they say that to my face, huh?

[Justin Bakker]

Because they're afraid of you. That's right.

[Griffin McRoy]

Jason.

[Justin Bakker]

Wait.

[Griffin McRoy]

Jason, were you the Prestige Fuck?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yes.

[Justin Bakker]

Right, man.

[Jason Schreier]

That's right. I get a shout out in Prey. Yeah.

[Justin Bakker]

Little Stinker is an upgrade. Honestly.

[Jason Schreier]

That's true. No press sneak fuck. I like that. I wear that with a badge of honor.

[Justin Bakker]

I would get. If it was me, I'd get a tattoo. Go on.

[Jason Schreier]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think I would be more inclined to get a prestige fuck tattoo than a Stinker tattoo, but I guess we'll agree to disagree. It's not a negative book. It's very much like a history book.

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah.

[Jason Schreier]

I would describe it. It goes through so many ups and downs and so many positive and negative aspects of Blizzard that I don't really think even the ending, I don't think it's certainly it ended on a sour note because it ends with essentially 1900 people getting laid off when Microsoft took over, including a bunch at Blizzard. But I don't really think it's a book that is just going to depress people. I think it's a book that people will find really interesting and kind of go through a roller coaster of emotions.

[Russ Frostchick]

I found it to be like a very light, very quick read. I am kind of a slow reader and this like zoomed by for what it's worth.

[Justin Bakker]

Is it. Is it going to get harder, you think, or is it proving harder already to do this kind of like following of a company or like a brand or a what have you as a narrative thread? When I feel like so many of those brands and like Blizzard, I guess in a sense is part of this where they start to mean such a different thing than they meant for so long, where it becomes almost sort of like a different beast. How do you like track that without it feeling like you're just following a, you know, a logo or a brand name?

[Jason Schreier]

Well, that's what makes it a story, right? Like, if it was just kind of Blizzard not changing, then it wouldn't be a very interesting story. What made me want to do this story in the first place was when I first started hearing about the Activision influence and the kind of corporate takeover of it all. Because that to me is what made it like, oh, there's some really interesting kind of people conflicting and having different motivations and desires and goals here and that's what makes it interesting. So I mean if there wasn't change, it wouldn't be a very good story.

[Griffin McRoy]

Do we want to do some honorable mentions before we wrap up?

[Russ Frostchick]

Yeah, I have a bunch. So I'm going to go through mine as quickly as I can. I'm going to start with a Sorry to make this all about books, but another book, this is a handheld history 88 to 95 from Lost in Cult. It just came out about a month ago and this is a gorgeous. If you love like handheld gaming from that era, you know you're talking about the original Game Boy and in that space game gear, that era. This is amazing, gorgeously illustrated book. Lost in Cult makes amazing stuff and I was totally blown away by the production value. This great essays in here. Really insightful things on the creators of the Game Boy, for example, Gunpei. Okay. And that team. So I was really just kind of blown away. And that book is out now if you're interested in getting it. It's volume two. They originally released the handheld history, which is more encompassing of all handheld history. And this is a more narrow focus which I actually like.

[Griffin McRoy]

God dang. I'm looking at their website. This Lost in Cold a lot of shit.

[Russ Frostchick]

Oh stunning. They make stunning stuff. The two other things I want to mention, one, if you are interested in UFO 50 and feel like we haven't fully checked the UFO 50 box in this episode, Eggplant the Secret Lives of Games is a podcast. They are doing a year long series where every episode is one game. It's hosted by a bunch of game designers. So if you're interested in a specific game or just the whole catalog, they will be moving through. I think the first episode goes up this week on Barbuda, which I'm definitely going to be listening to. So I'm super excited for that. And then the last thing I'm going to recommend is Will and Harper which is on Netflix. It's a documentary about Harper Steele and Will Ferrell. Harper Steele was the head writer at snl, recently transitioned and decided they decided to do a road trip across the United States. And so it's incredibly funny and personal and really, really touching and insightful in terms of the trans experience. And I was really, I thought it was fantastic. So that's on Netflix. Will and Harper.

[Griffin McRoy]

Yeah. You know what else is on Netflix that is touching, incredible and important is the circle. Season six, baby, it's back. It's doing some shit from a game design perspective that sucks the moon right.

[Russ Frostchick]

Out of the sky.

[Griffin McRoy]

They've added this like random element called the disruptor where you can choose to be the disruptor, but you don't know if it's going to be good or bad. And so it's just a game without rules. Anym loot boxes, baby. It's so. Fuck. This season's so messy. People are just lying and then getting caught. And then every time there's a group chat, people are just burning each other's asses to the ground. It's fucking fire. It's so good. Also, I finished core keeper, the 1.0.

[Justin Bakker]

Oh, thank God. I was so bored of seeing that on what you're playing.

[Griffin McRoy]

It's fucking great though, man. If you like Terraria, play Core Keeper. It is top down Terraria and it's. It's good as hell. It really absorbed me.

[Russ Frostchick]

Anyone else got stuff to talk about? Jason? You doing anything besides writing books?

[Jason Schreier]

I'm playing a game that I don't think I can talk about yet.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

That's what I want to talk about too. I can't talk about that now, Jason. We'll talk about that later.

[Justin Bakker]

I say you can't talk about it, Jason. But I know one guy that's great at getting people to talk about stuff that they're not supposed to talk about, and that's you. So if you were you and I was me and I was you and I needed to get to the bottom of this. Let me talk to your wife or your girlfriend right now.

[Jason Schreier]

Off the.

[Griffin McRoy]

Which one?

[Justin Bakker]

My wife let me talk to both of them at the same time on different calls. I kept playing Children of Morta. It's extremely good. If you haven't played it, you should play it. Oh, watch the movie. It's on Netflix also. Sorry, Netflix. You're really getting the business on this one. But it's called Rebel Ridge.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Oh, yeah, very. No, this is the new movie by the director of Blue Ruin in Green Room and.

[Justin Bakker]

Yes.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Yeah, go ahead, Justin.

[Justin Bakker]

Yeah, it's a story about. I don't wanna. I don't wanna give too much away because it's really one of those clockwork things that like watching it unwind is really very satisfying or wind up, I guess you'd say. But it is about a. A Marine who is currently not in active duty, whose cousin gets sent to jail. And if the cousin is wanted by some pretty powerful criminals and if he gets sent to the State penitentiary. Then he is worried that his cousin will be attacked. So this Marine is stopping in this small town to pay his cousin's bail to get him out. Basically he's got a lot of cash with him and he runs afoul of the racist police force there, run by Don Johnson. And he takes the money and strips it from him and then basically the cousin gets transferred anyway because Don Johnson really screws this guy over. So this guy though, what's cool about this is this guy's obviously like a very dangerous man with a lot of different, you know, he's got that whole sort of like taken magic, you know, he's a guy that can do anything, you get it. But the movie always exists in the world of law. So this guy is always conscious of what he's doing and delete. Like he is in the system, he's not outside of the system. His like assistant helping him with stuff is. She is a Cindy Hallward employee. Yeah, she's like wants to be a lawyer, but she is helping him navigate the like red tape and he is trying to do it by the book and being ground down by a system that like does not. I was sitting about him, I was.

[Griffin McRoy]

Sitting next to Justin on the plane as he watched this movie and just letting out full blown cackles at points.

[Justin Bakker]

It's so like excruciating the way that they grind this guy down and like keep twist. And Don Johnson is like so good at like continuing to twist the screws that when he finally starts to like upend it, it's like, it's so good. But it's not a cathartic, it's not like, well, this is solved. You know what I mean? It's a deep down like you see what this guy has gone through and you see what he's had to like get over on these guys. It's just great. It's friggin great film. Every scene is like great. The star of the movie, Aaron Pierre is going to have a massive career. He is like exuding power and cool and he's awesome.

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

If you've seen the original Rambo first blood before Rambo becomes kind of a parody of itself. This is more of a true spiritual sequel or reboot almost of the original Rambo than all the other Rambo movies. It's fantastic.

[Justin Bakker]

It's fantastic. It's so, so good.

[Griffin McRoy]

You got anything, Chris?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

I just support that. It's a great pick.

[Justin Bakker]

Cool. It's called Rebel Ridge. I don't love the name. I feel like because of the Rebel Moon. Honestly, I think I skipped it a few times.

[Griffin McRoy]

Also, the director had a whole color scheme thing going that is irritating to.

[Justin Bakker]

We hate that. Thank you.

[Russ Frostchick]

We did it. I wanted to thank the following patrons for being supporters of the Besties. We have Ben. We have Elliot. We have Kathal, and we have Kazuko. Hello. It started. Started getting a little weirder as we went. Thank you for being patrons. We have a new episode of the Resties that's up. We talk about Dead Rising Remastered, which is an excellent, super fun remake of the original Dead Rising, which I loved. And I love the remaster as well. So that is already up. We have a new bracket episode coming in next month, and so stay tuned for that. And Jason's book is Play Nice the Rise and Fall and Future of Blizzard Entertainment, which is out in, like, two weeks.

[Jason Schreier]

Very excited. Thank you guys for having me.

[Russ Frostchick]

Thank you, Jason.

[Griffin McRoy]

Next week.

[Russ Frostchick]

Oh, yeah, next week. It's a Zelda game.

[Griffin McRoy]

We're doing Zelda. The Echoes of Wisdom is the new Zelda game.

[Justin Bakker]

There's a new Zelda game coming out?

[Griffin McRoy]

Yeah.

[Justin Bakker]

Dude, is it about Zelda?

[Russ Frostchick]

It is.

[Griffin McRoy]

It really is.

[Justin Bakker]

Whoa.

[Russ Frostchick]

Now it's her time.

[Justin Bakker]

That's gonna do it for us. Until next time, be sure to join us again next week for the besties, because shouldn't the world's best friends pick world's best games?

[Christopher Thomas Plant]

Besties.