Science of Scaling: Dr. Ben Hardy Coaches Us LIVE | Dr. Benjamin Hardy (Ep 162)

Summary

The BetterLife Podcast Episode 162: Science of Scaling — Dr. Ben Hardy Coaches Us LIVE

Guests: Dr. Benjamin Hardy
Hosts: Brandon Turner & Cam Cathcart
Date: July 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this rich, live coaching episode, Brandon Turner and Cam Cathcart connect with renowned organizational psychologist, best-selling author, and scaling mastermind Dr. Benjamin Hardy. Centered around Dr. Hardy’s new book, Science of Scaling, the conversation moves beyond scaling a business to embrace personal goals, strategic decision-making, and the mindset shifts necessary for exponential (10x or 100x) growth. With real-time coaching on Brandon and Cam's businesses, the episode scrutinizes what holds entrepreneurs back from true scale and offers actionable, sometimes challenging, framework-driven advice. The tone is candid, thoughtful, and occasionally vulnerable as they grapple with common entrepreneurial dilemmas—from goal-setting to pruning non-essential activities, to balancing faith, purpose, and profit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Red Flags to Scaling (04:42)

• Dr. Hardy identifies common obstacles that reveal an entrepreneur isn't ready to scale:
  • Lack of a “true scale goal” (i.e., thinking linearly rather than exponentially).
  • Businesses without clear differentiation or philosophy; trying to do everything.
  • Teams lacking the specific talent needed for ambitious scale.
• Quote:

  "A lot of companies, their goal is fairly just an iteration off of where they're currently at... they're just trying to accomplish, like, the next step... that's a massive sign they're not ready to scale." — Ben Hardy (04:42)

2. Intentionality and The Power of Goals (06:47, 21:47)

• Your intentions shape your psychology and your systems—the clarity and magnitude of your goal determines your pathways and results.
• Goals should drive the system, not just be a loose intention.
• Quote:

  “Your goal as a person or your intention shapes your psychology. What you see, the pathways, but it also shapes the system you build…” — Ben Hardy (06:47)

• Hardy’s “Frame-Floor-Focus” framework:
  • Frame: Start with an audacious goal and a tight timeline.
  • Floor: Ruthlessly eliminate everything below the line of relevance to your new goal.
  • Focus: Concentrate only where impact aligns with your goal.

3. Practical Live Coaching: Scaling Brandon's BetterLife Tribe (06:47–16:25)

• Brandon's struggle: He's trying to help “everyone” in real estate at once—in finances, marriage, health, etc.—which dilutes the offering and retains fewer customers.
• Hardy’s advice: Define the ONE compelling goal or transformation, identify your business model, and focus. The more specific, the more scalable.

4. Live Coaching: Cam's House-Flipping Dilemma (23:55–29:03)

• Cam wants to grow from $1M to $10M profit/year, feels capped by the flipping model.
• Hardy and Brandon brainstorm models: shift from many small deals to fewer, larger ones. Scaling often requires abandoning “good” models for “great” ones.
• Quote:

  “You don’t change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, you have to have a new model that makes your old model obsolete.” — Ben Hardy quoting Buckminster Fuller (24:58)

5. Confronting Complexity & “Raising the Floor” (32:45)

• True strategy is what you say NO to.
• Attachment to legacy systems, existing clients, or vanity metrics (e.g., YouTube, various business lines) is what prevents scale.
• Hardy shares his own decision to shut down his YouTube channel after realizing it didn’t serve his future self’s goal.
• Quote:

  "We're kept from our goal not by obstacles, but by a clear path to a lesser goal." — Ben Hardy (34:06)

6. Clarity vs. Complexity: The Power of Singular Focus (38:46–40:34)

• Multiply “pathways” can be justified, but most are noise. True scale comes from streamlining attention and operations to what truly matters.
• Hardy’s own focus: writing and spreading his ideas to fuel Scaling.com.
• Quote:

  “My primary job is to refine the thinking and spread it in the form of books. And how do you spread books? You go on podcasts. ... I'm only here to grow that company.” — Ben Hardy (38:46)

7. Faith, Purpose, and the Difficulty of Choosing What to Scale (46:05)

• Brandon opens up about feeling pulled between purpose-driven and profit-driven projects.
• Hardy affirms: The thing you feel God has truly called you to do may need to be the primary thing you optimize and scale—even if it’s not the most lucrative.
• Quote:

  “Maybe you actually take the thing that you feel God wants you to do and scale that as high and as far and as good as you possibly can, if that's what you feel.” — Ben Hardy (47:59)

8. The Illusion of Anti-Goals & The Necessity of Strategy (58:41)

• Dismantling the “I-focus-on-habits-not-goals” trend—people always have goals, whether explicit or implicit.
• Setting acute goals doesn't make you a fraud; they are tools for action.
• Quote:

  “Time is a strategic tool. So my future self isn't a reality. It's a tool I use to make decisions in the present... The only reason for thinking about that goal is is it a useful tool for you to actually make a better business?” — Ben Hardy (57:01)

9. Making Hard Choices to Scale (62:41)

• Biggest barrier to change is “raising the floor”—being willing to let go of parts of your business, brand, or identity that are no longer serving your ultimate goal.
• The pain of pruning is real, but necessary for outsized growth.
• Quote:

  “The sooner you can operate from a better strategy—raise your floor and begin eliminating the stuff that shouldn't be there—the sooner you can find scalable path and begin dramatically making much better decisions and getting 10 times the results.” — Ben Hardy (32:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Set the right goal. Set it so high and extreme and urgent, right? No more than three years, so that it forces you to actually find a scalable path, right? A scalable model and path.”
  — Ben Hardy (64:24)
• On Moving Beyond Ego:
  “You have to ask… what's the right thing to scale? …There’s a lot of beautiful, fancy lesser goals that we could spend our whole lives pursuing—including making billions and billions of dollars.” — Ben Hardy (48:24)
• On Goal Conflict:
  "You can be doing a lot of noble things, even things in the name of God. Yet the one thing you're not doing is actually the thing that God's trying to tell you to do." — Ben Hardy (46:51)
• On Letting Go:
  “Letting go of old pathways and old dead ends is Not a bad thing. It's actually a really good sign of growth.” — Ben Hardy (66:03)

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Key Timestamps

• 04:42 — Red Flags: When entrepreneurs aren't ready to scale
• 06:47 — Defining your business’s intention & live coaching Brandon
• 16:25 — Origin and evolution of The Science of Scaling
• 21:47 — The “Frame-Floor-Focus” framework explained
• 23:55 — Cam’s house-flipping dilemma and scaling options brainstorm
• 32:45 — Raising the Floor; strategy is what you don’t do
• 34:06 — Hardy’s own decision to quit YouTube
• 38:46 — The power of singular focus and “working together for a higher goal”
• 46:05 — The tension between faith-driven purpose vs. business success
• 57:01 — On future selves, big goals, and not feeling fraudulent
• 64:24 — The core advice: set a radically ambitious but urgent goal

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Setting audacious, urgent goals reshapes not just outcomes but how you work today—including what you must ruthlessly prune.
• True strategy is about elimination as much as it is about action.
• Success often means letting go of “good” opportunities to focus on the one “great” calling, even if it’s uncomfortable or scary.
• If your goal is not clear, focused, and boldly challenging, you're likely optimizing for the past or for a lesser, vanity-driven path.
• Ultimately, scaling your business—or your life—requires the courage to choose, the honesty to let go, and the conviction to execute relentlessly in service of that one thing.

Find Dr. Ben Hardy:
scaling.com

Books Mentioned:

• The Science of Scaling
• 10x is Easier Than 2x
• Who Not How
• The Gap & The Gain
• Be Your Future Self Now

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Use this summary as your actionable playbook for exponential growth—and revisit the timestamped sections for in-depth learning on any topic from this episode.

Transcript

[A]

This is the Better Life podcast with Mr. Cam Cathcart and Mr. Brandon Turner. What's up, Cam?

[B]

What's up, man? How you doing, dude?

[A]

I'm excited. I mean, like spring, summer is here. I'm so excited, I wet my plants.

[B]

Hey, I've got a confession to make.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Did you know I used to be addicted to soap?

[A]

No, But I'm.

[B]

I'm clean now.

[A]

Wow, that's so good. I thought about telling a joke about pizza, but I just thought it'd be too cheesy. Anyway, what's up, Cam? It's been a little while. How you doing? It's.

[B]

It has been a while since we've gotten to do this together. I'm great, man.

[A]

You know. When. When's the baby due, by the way?

[B]

Sometime in July. Yeah, I think end of. Yeah, babies. I think August 10th is like the 40 week due date. But they said that they'll induce at 38 no matter what with twins. So that's like, I think July 26th.

[A]

Wow. Which is right around the time this episode comes out. So I don't know exactly what day this comes out, but it's right around that. So congratulations on twins, man.

[B]

Thank you, thank you.

[A]

Speaking of fun, today's episode. So good, right? Dr. Benjamin Hardy. You might recognize his name, cuz he. He's amazing. He's everywhere. He's written some phenomenal books. He's an organizational psychologist and bestselling author of multiple bestselling books including the gap in the gain, 10x is easier than 2x who, not how, and a whole lot more. You guys have probably read they're Phenomenal. Millions of copies sold. His upcoming book, the Science of Scaling. Grow your business bigger and faster than you think. Possible releases soon. As the founder of scaling.com he has helped entrepreneurs accelerate their business growth. Use powerful frameworks like frame, floor, and focus, which we'll talk about today. And really, he is widely recognized as like one of the premier business thought leaders in the world. And he's somebody that I am lucky enough to call a friend. So I'm excited to bring him on today. Cam, what do you think of today's episode? We just got finished recording it. What'd you think? Dude, I loved it.

[B]

I loved when we talked about a lot of people think good strategy is we have to add all of these things to my business. And he kind of reframed that to know good strategy or the things that you don't do. And then I loved the. The thought of everything in your business is dictated by your Goals. And if you want to change your business, you have to have better goals in a shorter timeframe, because then it reframes how you run your business. And so as we were talking, I was thinking through my personal businesses of like, okay, I need to cut X, Y, and Z, and I need to start doing this if I want to get to where I want to be. It was phenomenal, man. I can't wait for people to listen to this.

[A]

Yeah, it's super good. We get really personal with a couple, you know, with both of our businesses kind of using this time as, like, some personal coaching, which was great. So, yeah, hang tight for all that, and I'm excited to get you guys into the episode. So thank you so much for listening to the podcast and enjoy. Dr. Ben Hardy. Man, it's good to see you. Thanks for being on here today.

[C]

When was the last time we were together, man? Oof.

[A]

I think it was probably that fundraiser event with Stu McLaren. I'm thinking back, what was it like, fall of a year and a half ago for a couple days. That was a great few days. Like, Dan Martell was there and Amy Porterfield and you and I and a couple dozen other just rock stars. I learned so much that, that couple.

[C]

Days, that was so fun, man. So good to have. Good, good to be with you and Cameron, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks, dude.

[A]

Well, hey, so, you know, I, I, I've known you for a number of years. Obviously, I've read a lot of your books. I mean, everything from 10x and 2x. Who not how that drastically impacted my life. The gap in the gain plus things like, like be your future self now. I don't think I've ever told you this, but I built this whole Better Life tribe and the podcast largely after reading that. Like, I read that book and then I'm like, oh, this is awesome. And so, like, I used a lot of the, the, the thoughts I learned from you to kind of build that. So I just want to first of all acknowledge that and say thank you for all your, you know, wisdom and knowledge in all your books. But yeah, man, you, you are one of the most impactful authors that I've ever read.

[C]

So thank you. It means a lot, brother.

[A]

Well, that said, you got a new book coming out. I want to dig into it today. I actually read the entire thing. I loved it. It might be my favorite that you've written because it hit me, you know, books meet you when you need them most. A lot of times, like, this book hit me when I need it. In fact, funny story, you have a quote in there. We'll maybe talk about it later. You said, what are you optimizing for? That was literally the email subject line I sent to my team a week ago. Literally, she said, what are we optimizing for? And the whole thing was on, like, what are we optimizing for? So we can talk about that later. But that just shows you how, like, it hit me in the exact moment. So I want to start with a big question here. The question is, it's a summary question, maybe, is when you meet an entrepreneur, like, what is a red flag or something that instantly you say, this person is not ready to scale. They're not going to scale. Like, what's. What is that indication to you that they're not ready?

[C]

There's a lot of indications. One is, is often they don't have, like, a true scale goal, right? So like a lot of companies, their goal is fairly just an iteration off of where they're currently at. They're doing 5 million, they're doing 10 million. They're just trying to accomplish, like, the next step, right? So if they're at 5 million, they're maybe they're going for 7 million. To me, that's like a massive indication that they're not ready to scale. They're just doing what they were doing last year, right? So that's. That's a massive sign. They're not a clearly defined business. Like, they don't know who they are, what's unique about them, you know, so they're not differentiated. They don't have a clear philosophy, clear methodology. Like, they're doing 50 things, so they don't know what they're doing. And the. And like, the market doesn't know what they're doing. Right. So lack of. Yeah, lack of a real scale goal, which for me is at least a 10x, maybe even a hundredx goal in a very short timeline. So most companies don't have that. Most companies are not clearly defined, and therefore they're doing way too many things. And they probably don't have, like, the type of talent on their team that's going to get them to scale. So, like, those are all just obvious indicators.

[B]

That's good, man.

[A]

Well, hey, I'm gonna use. I'm gonna be selfish and use some of today's call and I'm sure Camel as well for like, some personal coaching here.

[C]

So, dude, I just. I'm happy just to talk to you about. Whatever, man. This is fun.

[A]

All right, great. Well, here. So here's. Here's what I. A mistake I made early on. I built this thing, the Better Life Tribe, and I love it. It's for real estate investors to get a better life. And the problem is we, when we launched, I mean, it's been mildly successful in terms of financially. We've given away like half a million dollars, roughly, because it's all for charity. Yet there's a line you say in the book, it's like, we do this. I have not been able to say that about the tribe. Now I have a program called First Deal. It's crushing. It's doing really well. Lots of signups because it's very clear, what do we do? We help you get your first deal. First deal, dot com. Easy, simple, better. Life has been a lot harder. And so I guess for somebody who's struggling in that position right now with saying, I want to be all things to all people. So, I mean, I want to be. I want to help real estate investors get deals and financing and be better at their marriages and lose weight and just all. All of it that has hurt me. What's your advice to somebody like me who's just trying to do everything because it needs to be done?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, since you read the book, you know, but I'll say it. So your goal as a person or your intention shapes your psychology. What you see, like, the pathways, but it also shapes the system you build, right? So, like, the literal intention of the business is going to shape the business. And so that's really the question you'd ask yourself is like, what is the intention of this business? Like, what is the actual goal of the business? That'll shape that. That literally will shape what it's designed to be and who it's designed for and. And what its purpose is. So for you, what is the actual goal? Not the financial. You could actually go that way. You could say, you know, that what if it's a program? You could say, what's the goal of the business? Which could be get to 50 million revenue. But you could say, what's the goal of the program? It's to help X do X. So what would you. Let's start with this. What's the goal of this business for you? Is it. I mean, you're. You say you're giving the money away. So what is the goal of the business?

[A]

I mean, the, the financial goal of the business?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. What's the goal of the business?

[A]

What I had said from the beginning was, I want to give away $50 million a year to Fight human trafficking.

[C]

So through this business. So this business is the tool to do that?

[A]

Correct, this business is. That's the tool. I don't take a salary is all for that. So that's the goal of the business financially then program wise, where I'm, where I'm landing right now is we help like what you could call maybe like my friend Janelle calls it a middle investor. Like people who are already investing, like their landlords, their house flippers, but they're not actually like financially free and rich yet, you know, they're not living on a yacht and quit their job and retired and sailing around. So there's that middle level person. Like I want to get them to the financial independence. Like, so people are already in the game. I want to help them finish the game, if that makes sense. So that's, that's what I'm trying to get them to. And maybe that's too vague. I don't know, it feels.

[C]

Do you care if I just ask you a bunch of questions?

[A]

Please. Oh, I love it, man.

[C]

What is the actual business model to get to 50 million a year? So is it like having two people paying you X amount of money? Like what is the actual business model?

[A]

Yeah, my, my theory back in the day was 10,000 people paying $500 a month of 60 million a year. And then you can operate on 10 million a year. And so we're at about a thousand right now. So we're 10% of the way to the goal of 10,000.

[C]

I mean that should show you some proof of concept, to be honest with you. Like that's actually, that's extremely encouraging.

[A]

It does, but we, we launched with a thousand and we're at a thousand now two years later. So, so that's the problem is the, the revolving in and out is about the same.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

So it tells me that it's, it's sellable. Like people like me, they like what I have to offer, but the program's not strong enough to keep them in.

[C]

Year after year after year.

[A]

That's what I'm learning.

[C]

Okay, so what is the main. So if you were to get to 10,000 people. That's the idea.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What's like your, I guess my, like you know the concept of the floor, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What, what is the obvious con? So like how I talk about is like if you're operating only from the 50 million and like that's what you're going to do, you're going to get there in two years, let's just say what in the current Business is obviously below the floor. That's distracting it, that's making it actually a bad product for the thousand people that are in there, which is why they're leaving. Right. Like what's below the floor? Is it who, who you're letting in? Is it that you're offering them too many different things? Like what is, what's the thing that's making it confusing for, for them?

[A]

Yeah, it has been offering them too many things. You know, we had coaching, like one on one coaching. We had pods, we have weekly calls, we've got courses, we've got software, we've got all of that. So what, what I learned is that when you offer people way too much, even if they're getting a lot of value out of 3 out of 10 of the things they, all they see is I'm not getting the seven or the 10 I'm missing and therefore I'm not getting value. And I'm like, yeah, but you're getting way more than the value over here on the three. And they're like, yeah, but I'm missing the seven. So therefore it's a negative experience. That's been an interesting lesson, but is.

[C]

The thousand that you have at the price you want? They're doing the 500amonth, give or take.

[A]

Some early, early people were at about 300. Today we're more like 7 if depends on which package you go to, but we're probably averaging five.

[C]

Okay, so you're offering some at seven.

[A]

Yeah, like we have a one on one package that's like 700amonth, give or take. Which we, we are, we are pivoting away from because it's just too expensive to run.

[C]

If you made it a thousand dollars.

[A]

A month or a year a month.

[C]

Isn'T that what you're trying to do? 500 a year. So if you made it a thousand bucks a month, would that. And you went and talked to all the people who are current clients and said this is now a thousand dollars a month.

[A]

Yeah, I think the, what do you think would happen?

[C]

Honestly, what do you think would happen?

[A]

I think I'd lose a lot of them.

[C]

Why?

[A]

I think I'd lose a lot of them because I, I think it's.

[C]

Is the perceived value, I think the one on coaching people, is it perceived value not there?

[A]

I think the perzee value is there when you first buy. But the longer you're in it, the less important it is to have like the one on one coaching. Because people get their habits and their goals set and they're like oh, well, I got this now, even though I don't think they do, but people think they do. It's like, oh, I got my goals and habits now. I'm good so that I don't need to pay monthly. And so I'm. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about that is just like, how do I eliminate more from the program but actually make it more expensive? Like, that's a question I've been trying to throw at myself the last, you know, few weeks is what if it was $1,000 a month? Like, what if I offered less but just did a better job at that less thing and made.

[C]

Like, what exactly is the program? What does it accomplish for who?

[A]

That's a good question.

[C]

What do you want it to be? Like, what. What would be the absolute, like, most powerful thing you could give the people you're giving it to without just like, without any, without any watering it down? Just like, this is what I would love to help a certain type of person do.

[A]

I want to help real estate investors scale, because I scaled.

[C]

You did.

[A]

I want to help them scale.

[C]

So.

[A]

And I think the way to do that, and this is what I think we're going to. We're pivoting toward right now. In fact, when this episode comes out, we'll probably already be. There is like more of the Dan Martel model, which he, he has a call once a week, he talks for 90 minutes, and he teaches people how to scale their business. And, like, that's basically all he gets. Now we're going to do a little bit more than that. We'll have a community and stuff. But, like, I think if I can just teach people every week for an hour and a half, that's why they come to the thing, because they like me and they know me and they think, hey, Brandon figured things out. So if I can just teach them for an hour every week. And that's all it is. Just come for an hour, hour and a half and hear Brandon teach you how to scale.

[C]

And specific to real estate, right?

[A]

Yeah, specific to real estate.

[C]

So could you give people a vision? So, like, I know, for example, you bought hundreds of millions of dollars of real estate, right? Yeah. So, like, the average person who comes into your program, what's their expected vision? Right? Like, future self. What. What's the biggest aspiration that most of the people who come to your program have for their real estate scaling?

[A]

I have no idea, actually. I mean, they want, they want. Financial freedom is the number, the thing everyone says, right? I don't want freedom like, which is probably somewhere between 10 and 50,000amonth.

[C]

But do you think, do you think you could help 10,000 people if 5 to 10,000 people joined your program? Do you think you could help that many people get even anywhere, ballpark, the amount of real estate you got? Like, could you show them how to do it and give them a process to how to do it? And it's like a two to three year program. I know that this is aggressive to getting hundreds of millions of dollars in real estate. Like, could you show them how to do that?

[A]

I think I could.

[C]

I mean, I think what would scare you to like filtering pretty aggressively for 5 to 10,000 people where you're like, you're hard filtering and you're like, you don't let a lot of people in, right? Because you're very clear. Like, we help these kind of people get to hundreds of millions in assets, you know, under management or whatever you call it. Real estate under management. Like, you focus on a very specific type of person. It's a extreme, like, like maybe in their case, 10 or 100x the, the amount of property that they currently own and you show them exactly how to do it. What would scare you about that program? Like actually running that program? Ooh.

[A]

I mean, the initial thought is there's just a lot less people into that, you know, like a lot.

[C]

You think so?

[A]

I mean, I just think it's easier to sell somebody like who's got one rental property, how to get five than it is to get somebody who's got five to buy 500. But maybe not. I mean, maybe that, maybe everybody. Maybe there are 5,000 people in the US who want to scale to $100 million portfolio. That's probably pretty reasonable.

[C]

I think that there's way more than that. I think that there's, there's. How many people would you say are in real estate or who want to grow real estate as their retirement or whatever?

[A]

Millions. Millions and millions.

[C]

There's millions.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Can you, can you differentiate yourself so hard based on your kudos, like, you know, your brand and also your knowledge, to say there are 5,000 people or 10,000 people who will pay a thousand bucks a month to get sole access to a community where everyone's getting, you know, going for 100 million plus portfolio in the next two or three years?

[A]

It's a good question. I like that. I like that quite a bit, man. That's really, that's really good. Is that not, not to completely pivot this off of me back onto you, but is that what Scaling dot com. Is. Is that what you guys.

[C]

You're scaling dot com? We don't. With real estate. No. Yeah, but we are very aggressive and you understand like the model. So like, we are very aggressive that we don't let people in unless they're like going for an impossible goal. Right. Seemingly impossible goal, which would be generally 10x100x growth. Sometimes it's honestly like getting to evaluation and selling the company. It's gotta be very specific. But yeah, we turn away a lot of people even with mature companies, you know, like sometimes tens of millions in revenue, some even with hundreds of millions, where they come in, they' like, I really want to be a part of this, but I'm not committed to growing that much. And so we're just like, all right, well, you should probably just go get some other education. Right? Go go to somewhere else. But we're looking for people who want to go for an extreme scale. Like that's what our framework's designed for. And so yeah, we, we commit, we get, we don't let people unless they're committed to like massive growth in a very short period of time. And then we just have, have a system in place to help them do that.

[A]

Yeah, that's super helpful, man. Well, all right, so let's, let's talk about the book a little bit. Where. Where'd the idea come from? I mean, where, where did this idea generate? Why is it so the time to write that book?

[C]

So I wrote 10x is easier than 2x. Obviously. I wrote that trilogy with Dan Sullivan. Very good. And, and you know, halfway through writing 10x, it was, it was clear to me that I was at my own pivot point whether I was going to like, keep writing books with Dan or whether I was going to go do something else. Dan and I had great conversations and he wasn't looking for what I was looking for in terms of continuing the collaboration. And so I really, I did. Writing 10x was fun because like, for, for Dan, it was actually a germ of an idea. Like a lot of those ideas, I, I would say that some of them were more well developed. Who not how wasn't that well developed when I wrote that book? Gap in the gain was pretty well developed. That was an idea he taught for like 20 years. 10x. He had the concept of what he called 10x mind expander, which is essentially this idea of just thinking ten times bigger. But like, when I, when I wrote that book, I had to like really get granular, which, like the 8020 model in that book didn't exist before that book. So like, I had to like. And so when I walked away after writing that book, I kind of just skaped the, like, like looked at the landscape and I've been a part of very expensive coaching programs, very expensive training programs. Lots of people from their 20s to their 70s in these programs. And I, I just kind of was like, the majority of these people are, are like growing very linearly like the mat. The majority, honestly, I started to really think about it. I'm like, there are a few outliers in every program, like the people who are exploding. But even in training programs or even in just general business, like most people aren't scaling right or like massively. I didn't, I wasn't even using that term, to be honest with you. The original title of that book was Rapid Transformation, which was just the idea that when you actually operate from the, from the much higher future, the immediate reaction is that it transforms your business, simplifies your business, and then forces you in a new direction. But yeah, that. And so that was really, for the last two years where I was delving, I was delving obviously deep in psychology because that's what I'm always studying. And then obviously and then deep into business strategy and just realizing how muddled these topics really are and how confusing for the majority of people these topics are. And so I just thought that's what kind of led me to developing the framework, the frame floor, focus framework. And so I just. What I ended up doing was having 90 day challenges where I'd run thousands of companies through this thing and just walk them through the model and, and kind of watch what would happen as we reframed what they were doing. And then Blake Erickson, who's someone, you know, came to me like majority of the way through writing that book. And he was, he was wanting to build a training company based on the book. And so we decided to do that, became scaling.com placed him on the book. He's going to be the main guy who's training it. And so it was, it was a process. But the, the main, the main answer to your question is it came out of excitement and frustration. Excitement of what I was already learning about in terms of just like exponential growth and good strategy and frustration that it was still, still. That it was still very unclear and that most people didn't understand it, which is why most people aren't, aren't scaling.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

How, what would you say the difference between 10x is easier in 2x and the signs of scaling is if you want to differentiate them.

[C]

Yeah. So I would say one.

[A]

Do you think I'm a sequel? Is the second one kind of a sequel? Not really.

[C]

Definitely. A lot of like the baseline thought came to me while working through writing that book. Like that book was very hard to write. I think that, I think that there's a lot of dead ends to be honest with you in 10x. Like there's a, you know, to the idea of signal versus noise. There's a lot of gold of course. Like just that the core idea that a much bigger goal is easier because it forces you to strip out the noise and it forces you to find a simpler path. That's about the gist of that book. There's a lot of noise though. Like the section on leadership and the whole idea of the self managing. I think there's a lot of contradictory ideas to be honest with you. Like the deeper and deeper I went into thinking about that book, there's a lot of ideas that actually contradict themselves in that book to be honest with you. And I just have to take ownership of that. Like the idea of building a self managing team. Usually someone who's trying to build a self managing team isn't scaling right what they're doing, which is what a lot of these coaching companies teach people how to do, is what you said. They try to teach people how to build a passive income business or a, or a business that's running itself so that the entrepreneur can either chill on the beach or do whatever they're doing. Right. Yeah.

[A]

It's like the four hour work week Tim Ferriss thing.

[C]

Yeah. I think that a lot of that thought bleeds into all sorts of places but it doesn't actually lead to true scaling. And so there's just a lot of undeveloped thought in that book. There's a lot of great thought. And so I would say that the biggest difference is that the framework I think in the science of scaling is far more robust. I think it accomplish it will take people a lot further. That's, you know, hopefully I write books that take people further than this book can take them. I'm always just trying to further develop the thought. But yeah, I just think that this book is far more complete in what it can help a company do. Um, someone told me that the 10x is easier than 2x told them why they should scale but the science of scaling actually showed them how. Right.

[A]

That's exactly the thought I had when I was reading. I thought oh, this is the how to of like. Oh, I know, I Need to do this. This is the how to.

[C]

So, yeah, that was kind of what a lot of people have told me is like, oh, 10x showed me why this book shows me how.

[A]

Yeah, Perfect man. Well, let's get into the framework maybe a little bit. The idea of like, ooh, is the floor. Maybe we'll start, is that we start there. Is that a good place to start? The floor?

[C]

I start with frame, start with frame, go there. What? What is that? Yes, the framework is frame, floor, focus. This is all based on psychology and strategy, but basically the frame everyone looks is operating from a frame, right? So like you've heard that in psychology, you've heard the concept of reframe, but your frame is basically how you see the world and everything about our frame. Like even people listening to this podcast, the only reason people are listening to this podcast, in other words, it's within their frame of reference, is because it has some relation to their goals. And so that's a massive insight in psychology, is that our goals are the primary shaper of our frame, what we see. And so everything we see in the present is almost entirely based on the goals we have for ourselves. Obviously, our past impacts our frame deeply, our past impacts our goals, but generally the primary thing shaping our lives is our goals. And so it becomes very important then to decide which goals you're setting and which goals you're going for. Just similar to everything we were talking about with your business, right? Your goal shapes what you see, it shapes what's relevant to you. It shapes the pathway you take forward, but it also shapes the people you do it with. And so the main initial concept here is, is that you want to raise your frame, which is raise your goal to such a high level and even bring your timeline to such an extreme deadline that the majority of what you're now doing, like the majority of what you're doing in the present becomes like very obviously below the floor, which is, it becomes very obviously wasteful. Like, that's the whole point of this frame. A lot of people, when I invite them to like, say they have a 10 year goal, right? Get their. Maybe it's, maybe it's one of your clients, right? They want to get to a hundred million in their net worth or in, in their assets under management, say they want to do it in 10 years. If I told them do it in three, they might start to get stressed out. But the only reason I'm telling them to do it in three is because I would want to point to them the many aspects of their plan. That are actually just bad strategy. Like there's many aspects of their plan, their ten year plan that are going to actually stop them from succeeding. And when they go for the much shorter timeline, it's going to force them to find a much better pla. Like a much better path. And so, like, that's the, that's the main reason we do this.

[B]

And what would that. I know you just kind of did this with Brandon, but now I'm going to be selfish. Like, so for, for me, my company does about. I own a flipping company. We do about a million bucks a year in profit. I want to do $10 million a year in profit. But when I say, hey, I want to do that in the next three years or even 10 years, it seems astronomical because I feel like there's a cap on flipping houses. Like it's going to create. It doesn't feel scalable. And so how would you talk somebody like that through that mindset or that mindset shift?

[C]

This is really beautiful. So let's just talk about this. So if you wanted to get your business to 10 million in profits in the next three years, what would be a way to get there? It's clearly, as you just stated, probably not the way you're currently doing it, but what could be a model to get you to 10 million profits in three years?

[B]

We would have to start wholesaling a lot more, in my mind.

[C]

What if you just optimized on that? Could you get there in three years?

[B]

Yes, potentially. I mean, it would, it would.

[C]

So here's the, here's the main point. There's a really great quote from Buck, Buckminster Fuller, where he says, you don't change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, you have to have a new model that makes your old model obsolete. So, like your current model and the strategy that comes with it, probably, it would probably be a massive grind to get that to 10 million in profits. And it would especially be very difficult to get there in three years. The beauty of doing that goal in three years is that it would force you to make a better model, a far more scalable model and a far better concept than your current concept. Your current concept's great. It's not a 10 million revenue concept. Yeah. And so the sooner you just face that your current concept is probably not that scalable, the sooner you can find a better, a better model. If you want to scale, if you want to keep just flipping houses, then you can do that. But to get to 10 million profits in three years, you're gonna have to find a. A better. A better model and probably a better team. And you'll be. You could do it though. Like, Cameron, you. You could do it. I'm telling you, my brain there goes.

[A]

By the way, Cam. Just like, I'm like, okay, well, like another model. Like, let's just say, not say you have this, but let's say you had a. A training company called, you know, 100 flips a year. And that's what it was called. And everyone that joined was a 50. 50 partner of yours where you arranged the financing and they went out there and did it and you had a hundred CL. Out there flipping, and they're all flipping ten houses a year, and you just get a piece of every single one of them. That's a totally different model that you still could get to the 10 million, but it's nothing like you're doing right now. Like, that's where my brain goes.

[C]

Yeah. So that, that's the beauty of what, what having the goal does is it forces you to find a model and then begin finding pathways. In his case, those pathways would be, you know, those. A hundred people. But you might. Rather than finding a hundred people, you might find 10. Right. That actually can get you 100 houses at once. Right. So it forces you to begin thinking through. Through a different model. And yes, the hard part then, which is what we call raising the floor, is for you to begin facing the truth about your current model and beginning to strip out the aspects of it that are good but not great.

[B]

So in that.

[A]

Yeah, go. Go ahead, Cam.

[B]

No, I was gonna say that. So, like, for, for me, as you're.

[C]

Just talking about this, by the way, is you operating from the future. It's letting the future shape the present, which is how psychology works. But anyways, keep going, keep riffing.

[B]

No, and I feel like we flip about 100 houses a year, and then after cut out all the expenses and everything, we're netting about 10 to $15,000 a house. And so it actually, it doesn't get me excited to try and scale one because I don't even think it's possible to scale a $10 million a year. I don't know very many people doing $10 million in a flipping company. And also knowing that then we'd have to do a thousand houses a year, which would mean that we. It's such a manual labor, heavy job that would create way more employees. You just, it almost stresses me out.

[C]

And some models are just not suited to scale. Like, honestly, if you tried to scale that, you'd have to be managing a ton of team. There'd be a lot of mar. There'd be a lot of, like. There'd be low margin for error because the people would jack stuff up. I mean, it'd be very hard to scale the model you have.

[B]

It'd be very painful, almost losing, like, the. The passion for it, where it's like, hey, we've hit our cap and there's not.

[C]

I mean, we could.

[B]

We go from 100 to 150 and. But. But to take it to a thousand.

[C]

You can go 2x, but you can't 10x it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then start thinking through what is that shift, which, like you said, I mean, in my mind, immediately goes to getting better at novations or getting better at wholesaling and those, though, Cam.

[A]

I mean, just to push back. The problem with. The problem with. With going more. I'm not saying you can't do this. The problem with going more granular, like, well, I'll just do more innovations or wholesales is the profit's smaller, so now your volume has to be even higher. I would argue that wholesaling innovations are even a worse scalable model than flipping versus. I would push you the other way. Again, do what you want. But my thought would be like, making a million bucks on wholesale fee on an apartment complex is super simple. Simple, Maybe not easy, but simple. Like, you buy an apartment for 12 million, you sell for 13. That's a total doable thing. You do 10 of those a year. Now you're at $10 million. So instead of going smaller on profit, I would. I would encourage you to think through, like, how would I just do bigger deals?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Does that fit with the logic there?

[C]

It could. Hardy. No. Yeah. I mean. I mean, I. I can't choose the model for Cameron. Right. You know, you're going to bring a lot to the equation in terms of which model you choose just because of your capability, you know, and how much you want to bring and, like, your knowledge on things. So. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

What would you say to somebody who is in. In the position. Maybe a position that I'm in or maybe even a lower. Like, they're not making a million bucks here. They're making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, but that provides for their family really well, and it gives them the life that they want, but they. They still want more. And to get that more, it might mean having to shut down the current business that they're in or taking a step back. How would you coach somebody through that? Like, what does that look like for them, does that make sense at all? That question?

[C]

Dead sense. It's very similar to someone who realizes that they have to quit their job to become an entrepreneur. It's a very common thing to realize your existing model isn't scalable. And what that means is you're gonna have to make a new model. It could be under the same name, but at a certain point, you're gonna have to stop, stop taking some of the clients you were taking, maybe shut down some of the products, maybe shut down the entire business and just own that. Like, this was a great run, but now I'm going to operate from a better future and build a better company, right? Or you could just keep doing what you're doing and you're just not really going to get anywhere. That's when you start becoming linear, where you're letting the past drive what you're doing or the current circumstances drive what you're doing. And so I think it's helpful to just realize that this is a continuous process, that the future shapes and disrupts the present, and that the better and better you get at the future and the more flexible you become, the better you get at letting go of the aspects of the present that were phenomenal for the past but are now literally anchoring you down. And you just get better and better at stripping those things out, becoming comfortable with it, not being angry, mad at anyone, and just under. And then, then finding better pathways forward because you can, you can achieve, grow, impact 10 times more than you currently are, but you only have so much time, right? And so if you had 50 years, you could keep doing what you're doing. But if you want to achieve that much or more in two, then you're going to have to find a better path and a better process and probably a different model, et cetera. And you can. And so it's just a willingness to go through that cycle over and over again. And your speed at doing it, your speed at letting the future shape it, being honest. Raising the floor. Meaning when I say raising the floor, what I, what I mean by that is, is your floor is the, the dividing line between what's useful and what's not, or what's relevant and what's not. And everything below the floor is to be eliminated, as tough as that may sound. And, and, and that's really largely what good strategy is. A lot of people just don't understand strategy. Michael Porter, who's one of the top strategy experts in the world, he, he's, he actually invented the field of competitive strategy. He defines strategy as what you don't do. Peter Drucker, who's another important thinker, he talks a lot about how the future is what shapes and defines the present and that the primary thing you should be worried about is what you don't do. I could point you to Richard Ramelt in his book Good Strategy, Bad Strategy. He says the essence of. He said that the reason good strategy is so surprising is because most people don't have one. And you can tell they don't have one because they're doing a lot of things that don't scale. Like they're doing a lot of things that don't work right. There's. They're actively saying yes to complexity. And so the sooner you can operate from a better strategy and I. E. Raise your floor and begin eliminating the stuff that shouldn't be there, the sooner you can find scalable path and begin dramatically making much better decisions and getting 10 times the results.

[A]

So I know I'm fairly well off financially, right? But did you know I still house hack? Like that's right. I've got an extra couple units at my house here in Maui and I decided to actually rent one of them out because, hey, it's like almost 2,000 bucks a month and I'm an investor, so why not? As you know, the first thing I did when I decided to rent that out, I went to turbotenant.com because there I can advertise the unit screen for potential tenant, sign the state specific lease, get automatic rent payments, set up, track my income and expenses, and even communicate with my new tenant via the app. It literally made the process so much easier. So whether you've got, you know, one unit or a ton of units, check out turbotenant.com I love it and I know you will too. Let them know I sent you. Yeah, this concept of the floor I thought was so hard hitting and it's a puncher, dude.

[C]

It punches, it hurts.

[A]

And can you talk about your experience with. I remember the video you put out there. I don't know the year ago or two years ago, but I'm shutting down YouTube. Can you.

[C]

You and I talked about that, man. You and I talked about that.

[A]

That's a wild. Yeah, we hung out. It was like right after that. That's a wild choice. Can you explain what that was, why you made a choice and where do you view it today? I think it's just a good example.

[C]

I think first off you have to tell us what your coach told you when he texted you that video because I remember being with you and your performance coach. We were together the next day, literally, like, when I closed down that platform. Tell them what your coach said.

[A]

Yeah, it was something like, that guy's got balls or something like that.

[C]

Yeah. But he was. He was bringing it up to you because you were talking about the complexity in your business, the diversification of focus. So here's the beauty again. The core of psychology is that your goals shape everything you're doing. Like, that's. That's just an important concept. And many people have overly conflicting goals. They have even goals that are hidden. To them, the point of the impossible goal, or the extremely high goal is. Is that it forces you to reckon with all the things you're currently doing that may be based on bad assumptions. Like, one of my favorite quotes is, we're kept from our goal not by obstacles, but by a clear path to a lesser goal. So I'm gonna say it again. Cause it's kind of a complex, but, like, we're kept from our goal not by obstacles that are stopping us, but by. By a clear path to some lesser goal. And so I think a lot of people have to face the fact that they have lesser goals. Um, they have vanity goals, or. Or. And so I. I'll get it back to myself and raising my own floor and facing my own lesser goals, including YouTube. But one of the people who read this book early, he's in real estate as well. And after he read the book, he's like, okay, Ben. He's like, I'll set an impossible. Well, I can see this. He actually said. And I don't know the category, right? I don't know real estate like you guys do. But he basically said, I. I want to have 10,000 properties, like 10,000 doors or whatever in this particular category in three years. I was like, brilliant. How. How long would that take you to get there? How? Like, based on your current path, based on your current strategy, how long would it take you to have that much value? And he's like, that's like 20 years of growth. And I was like, awesome. Like, that's a great goal. It's a different goal. It's a different path. But then he started to bring up his own desires. Like, in. He was like, but I want to do this and this and this. He said he wanted to have a podcast. He probably is inspired by people like you, to be honest with you. Right? And it's fine to be inspired by other people, but I just was like, tell me how the podcast is going to help you Hit that goal. And if you can, maybe it is a unique pathway. But he didn't have a good answer. And so I said, you have two conflicting goals. I said, that's okay, but probably one's going to cost you the other, or you'll just get none. And so that's an example of a lesser goal. And I think. Why did. Why did he want a podcast? I don't know. Maybe you want to be famous. Maybe he wanted to share his wisdom. He might have had a lot of good desires, but those conflicting goals are also stopping him from just going and getting that 10,000 units in three years. And so for me, just answering the question, like, when I started to really, really think about my own future self and scale my future self up, like, think about. And this is part of the beauty of ha. Like, of even having the idea of an open future, that your future is not set in stone, um, and that you can actually think about different futures and then let that shape your character in the present, let that shape your direction. And so I just thought about a higher and more aligned version of my own future self. And it became clear to me. And, and. And I wrote about a conversation I had with a friend, Chad Willardson. In the book, it became very clear to me that I was doing a lot of things, saying yes to a lot of things that were good. But even if I. Even if I took those pathways up to the highest level, my YouTube channel, I had like, a hundred thousand YouTube subscribers. If I scaled that pathway up a hundred X and I had 10 million YouTube subscribers, like, would that actually get me to the future self I wanted? And the answer was no. Like, it was. It was not a viable pathway for me and for my future self. It was not optimizing something that should be optimized. And so it was by virtue of that below my floor. And I was saying yes to it for conflicting reasons, which were diluting who I wanted to be. And so I just had to start stripping that stuff out, burning it down to the ground, and finding a much more focused path. And the beauty is, is when you do it, like when you actually raise your floor and begin eliminating it, you start scaling very quickly.

[A]

Well, here's the.

[C]

Can I. Go ahead.

[B]

I have a question just along those lines because. Because I hear what you're saying, and, you know, there's the book, the one thing which I love. Absolutely love that book.

[C]

And then which we were talking to Jay Papazon.

[A]

I remember that as well. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I think I'm on A panel with him next week at your event, right? Yeah, but. But then I. I talked to guys like you, and you've got, you know, the. The books that you're writing, scaling.com. you're a speaker.

[C]

You're.

[B]

You're hopping on podcasts. You've got seven kids. Like, how. How in your life have you. It doesn't seem like you're doing one thing. Or maybe it is all working together for a higher goal and the future version of your. But how do you. How do you tie all that together? Because right now I feel like I'm doing a podcast, coaching real estate, a fund, and I'm. I'm scrambled and don't have. Like this. Hey, this is all working together to get me to where I want to.

[C]

Be is a beautiful question. So I would say my primary goal, at least in the business. Right. Is to grow scaling dot com. To be honest with you. That's why I'm on this podcast. Like, just needed to be blunt. I'm sharing this book. But the job of the book, the Science of Scaling, is to grow scaling.com. it does have a secondary purpose, which is to transform companies. Like, it's. I. I do want to scale that book. Like, personally, I would love Elon Musk to read it. I'd love Trump to read it, because I think that America needs it. Hopefully other countries do, too. But, like, I think that people need to understand this. This principle in this process of growth. And so I would love millions of people to read it. But it all has a singular goal, which is to grow that company. I have a very specific role in that company. I'm not the CEO. I'm not the core trainer. Blake Erickson, the co. The co authors, he's the one training the companies in scaling.com. i'm not training the companies in scaling.com. my primary job is to refine the thinking and spread it in the form of books. And how do you spread books? You go on podcasts. And so I'm just. I'm just. I'm just accomplishing my job of spreading the book. And the book's job is to convert people into the program, and the program's job is to transform them. But I'm only here to grow that company. To be fully honest with you. Like, I know a lot of people won't say what their actual goal is, but, like, that's the goal of the book. That's the reason why I'm on here.

[A]

Yeah, I love that, man. So here's where I struggle with this concept, even taking that to YouTube or your buddy. But wanting to start the podcast is sometimes like, you can justify almost anything as being vital in that line of importance. Right. Like, for example, like shutting your YouTube would help you sell more books, which would then help you grow. Scaling.com or him going on a podcast would get more people, or being a podcast host would get more people to fund him. And funding is the hardest thing for real estate. I can justify.

[C]

You can almost buy a lot of pathways.

[A]

Yeah. So how do you, how do you choose. YouTube was not right. In a world that is just like, we don't know. I don't know if you like, like I'm asking. Also for selfish reasons. Like right now I'm trying to be the best Instagram guy in the real estate space, period. And I'm sure.

[C]

Why choose that pathway? There's something about that. What? Go ahead.

[A]

I'm trying to be also YouTube and LinkedIn and Facebook.

[C]

And what do you benefit to? The question you asked me at the very beginning, what are you optimizing for?

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's a great question. So I. Ultimately, everything I'm doing is to. Well, yeah, you can say everything I'm doing is a scale open door capital and in which is the actual real estate business I have. So the podcast, the YouTube, Instagram, all of that is designed to scale open or capital even to a degree.

[C]

That one, that one thing is the primary driver of all these pathways, all this action, all this thought.

[A]

Yes. And so now I can justify everything else. Like, hey, Brendan, can you go fly out to whatever city and go speak at an event?

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Because I might meet somebody there. It's going to fund a deal for me and then help me grow my.

[C]

So here's why you want to operate from a better frame, which is give that open capital. Is that what it's called open door capital? Open door capital. Give it a bigger goal and a shorter timeline. And most of those pathways that you're pursuing fall below the floor because most of those pathways genuinely, that's why you have to operate from a better goal. Remember, our goals shape our psychology. They shape our pathways and they shape the systems we build. Right now you have a very complex system where, where you're doing many different things. Remember Elon Musk said that the most common mistake of a smart engineer is to optimize things that shouldn't exist. Well, how can you even know what shouldn't exist? It's from your frame. It's from your goal. Right. The quality of the goal shapes the quality of the system. And, and so your current. I would say you need a better goal for that. That primary goal. Like that primary. That primary company. That. That company needs a much better goal, a much higher goal and a much more urgent goal. And then from there, just as I did with Cameron, ask yourself, what's the model that's going to scale and what are the pathways that are going to scale? Most of your current pathways are the 80% of things that are not doing much for you.

[A]

That's. That's brilliant. I had not thought of that. Because, like, I mean, to use that example, if is me. If my goal is to just get 10 better next year, maybe flying across the country to go speak at an event for 50 people is worth it. If my goal is to do 10 times what I'm doing today, it makes no sense to fly across the country. That makes sense. I love that concept.

[C]

Yeah. So what is that. What is that company again, that you were saying? Just barely. Sorry, I've never heard. I've never heard you talk about it. What is it called?

[A]

It's just my multifamily company. So we buy multifamily real estate.

[C]

Yeah. So just so apart, what is the current goal of that thing?

[A]

I am. That's the problem. I have a goal written down. It was $10 billion of real estate owned in 10 years. That was five years ago. We made that goal. We're at a billion right now. But I'm. I'm hesitant to make that the goal.

[C]

Why?

[A]

Because it, Because I think it's. It made me optimize for growth, not profitability as much. And so I'm. I'm just trying to rethink that. And that's a whole.

[C]

So you think it might have been the wrong goal and that happens. We can.

[A]

I think it might have been the wrong goal. Yeah.

[C]

We can sometimes scale the wrong thing. So if you were to reset the goal, what is the. What is. Not that you should base the goal on your present, but what is the current profitability? If you don't mind, then maybe you don't want to share.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's hard to. It's hard to say. I mean, I'm at a billion dollars of real estate and so equity wise, I don't know, call it a hundred million dollars of equity across that. So, like, the more important number is profit. It's almost like saying profit versus revenue.

[C]

Right. So here's a question for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know how much profit you're making. Maybe it's five or $10 million. Right. But what if your goal for this company in three years was to have a hundred million profits?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

How would that shape everything you do, including what you sell off, including what you start buying, including your strategic partners? Like, if it was like, I'm gonna make a hundred million profits every year off real estate, off of my growing portfolio, I feel like that would reshape almost everything you're doing, and it would therefore shape a new model and an entirely new focus. But it would also force you to probably strip out a lot of probably. Probably 90 plus percent of the things you're doing right now. Wouldn't get you to a hundred million profits. And in three years.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That's why you want such an extreme frame or goal, is because it then forces you to. To only find the most viable path. Like the only. The most aggressive, powerful path and model. And so, like, that's the beauty of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, I. What. What's your opinion on that brand? Like, what if you actually just said, in three years, I'm gonna go for 100 million profits a year in three years. How would you solve that?

[A]

It's a good question.

[C]

No, seriously, like, how would you solve that in your. In. In real estate? 100 million profits in three years.

[A]

Real estate's a little funky in that you make all your profit when you sell. And so timeline. It takes time to buy a property and then sell it. You know, that cash flow is pretty minimal on, like, you know, monthly profits are fairly minimal compared to what you make when you sell. You know, you buy it for 80 million, you sell it for 100 million. But that takes five years to work that business plan.

[C]

So is anyone making 100 million profits in real estate every year?

[A]

I'm sure. I'm sure the big guys are, you know, the Blackstones and all them. I'm sure they're making it.

[C]

What if that goal led you to a very innovative model and pathway? Who cares if no one else has done it?

[A]

Yeah, it's a good question.

[B]

What would you cut out, Brandon, if. If that was the goal and you've got better life? My first deal, the 50 your pad splits. I mean, yeah, you could go on and on with all the businesses that you own.

[A]

Well, so what would you. Part of this gets into a more interesting dynamic, and I'd be curious on your thoughts on this, because I know you're. You're a spiritual guy. Ben is this idea of like, the Better Life tribe doesn't. Like that is the biggest distraction I have. But that's the one most clearly I felt God telling me to do. And maybe then that should have actually be what I'm optimizing for, because that's the only thing I feel like God told me to do, is to build that. And Instead I'm building 12 other businesses because I don't make money off that one. So I need to make money. So how do you, you know, balancing the. What's good financially versus what I think I'm supposed to do with, you know, from a God.

[C]

That's huge. That's really huge. You'll like this. The book I'm writing right now is called Strategize with God.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yeah. It's gonna be. It's gonna be different, man. It's gonna be. But. But I. I like what you're saying. I was. I was just talking to someone about this literally yesterday. Someone who's a billionaire, someone who's. He's literally one of the founders of all of private equity, and he was talking about how often you can be doing a lot of, honestly, very noble things, even things in the name of God. You can be doing all sorts of noble things, yet the one thing you're not doing is actually the thing that God's trying to tell you to do. And so I think that if you feel inspired, that that's the thing that you should be doing, maybe you should scale that thing up. To be honest with you, like, if that's. If that's the thing you feel you should be optimizing for, I would take that as high and as far as you could possibly go. And you might have to question all of your other goals. I'm not saying you get rid of all your real estate, but maybe that stops being the thing you optimize for. Maybe you actually take the thing that you feel God wants you to do and scale that as high and as far and as good as you possibly can, if that's what you feel.

[A]

Yeah, I think there's probably a lot of truth to that. Where, like, the real estate goal, the number that's 15,000 units, all that stuff.

[C]

Like, it might be a vanity goal, might be a lesser goal.

[A]

Yeah, it's a vanity. Yeah, it is very much a vanity thing. I love walking in a room and be like, Yeah, I got 14,500 units. That's a cool number for my ego. It boosts it really well. But, like, how does that actually help people? I mean, maybe I make a bunch of money and give it away someday, but again, now I feel like I'M just justifying it.

[C]

So there's a lot of beautiful fancy lesser goals that we could spend our whole lives pursuing, including making billions and billions of dollars. And so yeah, you have to ask like again back to the question like what, what, what's the right thing to scale is obviously a hard and beautiful question. Choosing, choosing the thing to invest your time and energy into and advancing forth. And my main point is, is whatever you choose to scale, you should scale it because it's going to force you to actually make better decisions.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that, that, yeah, definitely. A couple of two years ago, three years ago, was it three, four. I don't know. When I left Bigger Pockets, I was like, oh, I got to figure out a way to make money, right. So I launched like a mortgage company which had the potential of being a billion dollar company. I mean it really could. It's Brandon Turner running a mortgage company. It should be huge. But I also launched a thing called the 50 which is all millionaires getting together every quarter and then the Better Life Tribe and then first deal. And I still have my real estate, but I didn't know which one was going to.

[C]

What? Go ahead.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't know which one was going to make me money, so I did all of them. Is that the wrong thinking, do you think? Or is it more of plant a bunch of seeds and then just make sure you prune quickly? Like what's the better approach there for somebody who needs to get out there and get income coming in quickly? Is it to plant multiple seeds and then prune or just fix what was.

[C]

I mean maybe it's just because you have such high overhead but like why did you need income so fast?

[A]

It's a good question. I probably didn't as much as it was a fear based thing. I was like, well, what if books stop selling? What if my real estate stops producing cash flow?

[C]

But did any of that actually happen?

[A]

No, no, it's been fine.

[C]

But I've. No, but I really wonder like why, why did you think you needed to. Yeah, to, to figure it out so fast.

[A]

I think it's, I mean one, because yeah, I needed to make sure that if, when I left Bigger Pockets, if book royalties dried up, which was majority of money I was living on, that it would, I'd be okay. I sold most of my real estate in the process of period. I mean I sold all the little stuff. So then I put it all into opendoor capital which I don't get paid to the end so I don't have a lot of Income coming in from actual real estate. I mean, proportionally wise. So that's, that's why I did that. And they all were fairly successful. It just.

[C]

Where are they all at now? Are they all done? For the most part. Are they all still sustaining?

[A]

They're all still sustaining. They're all, they're all alive. But I know I would be more successful if I just picked one. And I think at this point now it's, though, it's team members, it's people, it's, it's a lot harder to prune than I maybe thought it was going to be. Because I don't want to. Because, because they're also. This is the big thing. And I think everybody can probably feel this. They all should be built, like, in my, in my soul. They all need to be built like, Brandon Turner needs to have a loan company. It just makes sense. And Brandon Turner needs to have a high level program for multimillionaires. Like, it just makes sense. And so does the first deal thing and so does real estate. And I, I struggle so deeply with trying to pick the thing because it just all feels so right. Does that make sense?

[B]

Like, yeah. It reminds me of Pace's quote where he asks, like, what's the hardest thing about real estate? And he says there's too many ways.

[C]

To make a lot of money.

[A]

Yeah, there's too much.

[C]

And you can make a lot of.

[A]

Money in all of them.

[C]

It does remind me of the quote, though, from Richard Rumelt, who wrote Good Strategy, Bad Strategy, which is just good strategy, is rare and it's therefore surprising, like, when someone actually makes moves that don't seem to make sense, where they're, they're, you know, eliminating things or letting go of things or divert or going a different direction. Like, good strategy is very rare and bad strategy is very, very common. And so you, you spoke about this.

[A]

In the book, but Elon Musk, you gave an example of that and I thought you were like, it was a, it was a view I'd never seen before in the idea of like, he is optimizing everything for Mars is kind of the, like, even, like, he, and.

[C]

He'S been on it, he's been honest about that.

[A]

And you, like, can you, can you speak on that for a minute, what that means? I think it is a good picture of like, like everything from the.

[C]

Think about, think about what he was willing to sacrifice. He, he almost, he almost sacrificed Tesla for that goal. Yeah, like going all in on Trump, you know, like, that was his big bet in terms of Like a strategic partnership to getting to Mars meant all the Democrats who are, you know, huge on the ev thing, like, he, he, he. He was willing to, you know, I don't know if you would have said this, but based on his actions, he was willing to sacrifice Tesla for that goal. Luckily, he didn't have to. Right. But it started to look pretty bad. And so I think he made very clear his objective and his willingness to face a lot of opposition to doing that. And I think that that's one thing that makes him stand out, is that he's clear on his convictions. And I think that that's part of, that's part of all of this stuff that we're discussing is all these things that you could be doing or should be doing. Like, what's the one. Like, what's. It doesn't have to just be one, by the way, but it's like, what is the thing that would deserve your highest conviction? Like, they, like, we might see the, the absolute best of your work in what you can provide if you were like, if you really developed in this way, like, if you really into that idea of good to great. Right. Like, yeah, I, I wonder what, what that level of Brandon Turner could be where it's just like, yeah, you're Mona Lisa, right? You're David, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What would that be? Yeah, but it would. But it, but to get to that level of mastery and impact, like, that level of mastery and impact is. Is where like you do, like because of where you've gotten to in, in where you're at both. It could be spiritually, it could be in talent, it could be in skill, it could be in leverage. Like, every move you make can be world transforming. Like, think about Musk. Like, any move he makes can kind of shift the direction of economies, things like that. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's wild.

[C]

Geez.

[A]

All right, man. This has been awesome. I know we have to slowly start moving towards the end. I could ask you. I literally have 800 more questions that we did not get to, but I want to go through just a couple of these.

[C]

Let's do it. Dude, I love it.

[A]

All right. A couple things here. You know, I like these ones. I grabbed a bunch of these questions that I call it a section called for the gram. It's literally designed to be a good, like, love it. Short, punchy thing. What is one belief about yourself that you had to destroy in order to grow?

[C]

I mean, so many at every stage. I think that, you know, one of the common ones, which is kind of related to who not how is that I needed to be the one to do it, but. But. But then a. A level two version of that is I need to be the one to lead it. Um, number three is, is it has to actually be based on me and has to have my name on it. Right. And so a big point of scaling.com was, is that it actually isn't Ben Hardy. And ideally it gets further and further away from that. Yeah, I can be a rocket ship for it, or I can bring a lot of IP to it, but, like, it will be better. Like, it'll be better served if it. If it's not based on me and if I'm not a center portion of it. So just, just. Just realizing, like, kind of the higher leadership principles that it actually is better to set other people up for success than yourself. And like, that can take. That can take things very far. So I don't know. I mean, there's so many others. One. One would be just that, like, I'm not an organized person. So, like, when I was doing a PhD, I actually was pretty, pretty sloppy. And like, I was known for my PhD professor to, like, send really bad drafts. And. And so, like, I've actually gotten a lot better at being willing to, like, do multiple drafts and, like, be far more refined in what I do. So, like, you know, just being more professional and more refined, like, is something I had to, you know, had to, like, strip out, like, a massive Achilles heel of my own.

[A]

What I love about that is you didn't just accept the story that, like, oh, I'm just disorganized like most people do. It's like, well, I'm just this way.

[C]

That's how I am. And I really was. I was very, very disorganized. I mean, I have that kind of entrepreneurial, like, they call it quick start where, like, I'll jump on something fast. But I've had to learn to temper that and like, give it an extra draft or two and just like, just. Just share something that's like, really well done versus just getting it done fast.

[B]

All right, I have a question for you, and I love this question. Brandon. Brandon wrote it down, but we're talking about, like, the future version of you or setting big goals. How do you do that without feeling like a fraud?

[C]

It's awesome. So number one is just the knowledge that time itself, your future self or some future goal isn't a concrete reality. Like, for me, I always just look at time as a tool. Right? Time is a strategic tool. So my. My future self isn't a reality. It's a tool I use to make decisions in the present. That's the, that's the primary use of the future and the past is to just make decisions in the present. So when I set some insane goal, there's nothing about it that tells me I'm a fraud. Because the only reason I have that goal is to actually just make decisions in the present. It has nothing to do with anyone else. It has nothing to do with anything except for does this goal. Is this goal useful at helping me redirect my present and be more honest with myself? So again, I just use the goal as a tool. I, I've, I walked many, many people through this. I challenge them to set an impossible goal. They start to feel like a fraud or they start to get scared. And I say it's literally a tool. Like this goal is a tool. Just like the 10 million profits in three years for you, that's a tool. There's nothing about Cameron being a fraud about that goal or my opinion, Brandon's opinion, or the listener's opinion. The only reason for thinking about that goal is is it a useful tool for you to actually make a better business?

[B]

And I think that's the key is. And it, it makes it way less scary to say it's a tool, but it just reframes your day in the present to, to be more aligned with that person.

[C]

That's what the future is for. Like I said, our frame, what we see, what we do is based on our goals. Better goal, better present. Like, this is as weird as it sounds. It's not psychology 101. Like, this is actually very advanced psychology. But your goal is shaping everything you're doing from what you're saying yes to what you're saying no to, to the, to the system you build, to the business you build.

[A]

So there's kind of this, this trend right now around goals, which is like, why I don't say you mentioned this in the book with like Ryan Holiday's quote, but like, it's like, I don't set goals anymore. I just work on my habits. I just have processes, that's all. Like, let's not worry about goals. What are your thoughts on that? About this movement of the anti goal?

[C]

I think it's, it's a big lie, to be honest with you. I.

[A]

You think they all have goals.

[C]

They just, they can't. Like, how could you write a book without having the goal to do so? Right. How could you, in his case, start a bookstore without the goal to do so he might say, I have no goal for the bookstore except for film podcast episodes in it. Right. So it, obviously he has a goal for it, but I just, I think it's very disingenuous. I think it's a lie. Maybe it's, maybe it's, maybe it is genuine from their perspective, but it's just not how psychology works. Humans, humans all have goals. He has a goal. You know, he wants to be in shape. He wants to write books, he wants to teach philosophy to people. He wants to be a good dad. So, like, it's impossible for people to not have goals. It's hard for people to be honest about their goals. It's hard to be optimal about their goals. You don't have to, by the way, want to scale. I think that one of his main points is like, you don't need. For him, he, like, his main point is you don't need to scale. And I actually think that that's fairly true, you know, for. But, but, but to be honest with you, that's not how he lives. You know, he actually does scale. Like, he's very aggressive at getting his philosophy out there and only doing the things that are going to reach millions of people and make him millions of dollars. And so even though he tells people not to have goals and not to scale, that's literally what he's doing.

[A]

There also is a. And you kind of alluded this. Well, but people tend to get that viewpoint. If you don't need goals once they've already achieved some like, massive, large level.

[C]

Of success, it happens, and they go into philosophy, then they become enlightened, don't have any desires, then they become Buddhists. Right, exactly. It's a very common path. It's a very common path.

[A]

And then they start teaching. Like, that's the thing that's going to get them to that level that they're at. When in reality it was just usually hard work and goal setting and then reverse engineering those goals until you got what you wanted and then you can go graduate to none of this actually matters and just be happy and enjoy life. And I'm like, that's easy when you're rich.

[B]

But Horosi is kind of gone there where he's like, just work hard, wake up, work hard.

[A]

No goals.

[B]

Like, just keep working hard every single day.

[C]

Like. But it's. You're a billionaire.

[B]

It's easy. It's easy for you to say.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, his goal was very clear, that he wanted to have a hundred million dollar net worth or something like that, you know, have a hundred million revenue company. Like he, it was the name of his company. It was like, like, which is a smart move. Like he was like his whole brand was get to $100 million revenue, right? That was everything he said. So now human beings have goals. Some goals are better than others. If you want to scale a company, which is what we're talking about, like you're probably not going to accident your way there. Like you're not going to just stumble like to some random process or habit that's going to some somehow transform your life. And honestly anyone who says that stuff, just watch what they do, right? There's a quote from Maya Angelou who says, when someone shows you who they are, just believe them, right? Actually watch what they do. If, if, if I'm just gonna be blunt. If, if, if James Clear's whole process is on writing books, why hasn't he finished a book since Atomic Habits, right? If his writing process was so dialed in, where are all of his books now? His goal changed, right? He's created a publishing company, right? So now his goal is to scale a publishing company. And so his goal changed, which is totally fine. All of our goals change over time. But of course he has goals and that's shaping his beautiful process.

[A]

Yeah, I love it.

[C]

And he was even admitted, by the way, he was on Tim Ferriss podcast and he said his goal was to write a book that sold over a million copies. And so he only studied books that sold millions of copies. I mean, he's genius, right? He's very strategic and habits are important, but most habits are optimizing things that shouldn't exist. Yeah.

[B]

Awesome. I know we have to wrap up. I got one more question for you because this is for me personally, but I know there's so many people that have listened to this and they're like, I've got to make some changes. And what is going to keep people from making that change?

[C]

I would say it's the main one which Brandon hit was raising the floor, right? Like raising the floor means being a lot more honest with yourself and getting rid of the stuff that shouldn't be there. And that's hard for all the reasons even Brandon said, like these things should exist or there's already employees there, right? Or like I already. And so we have a lot of attachments to, to the existing system, right? To our existing life. And so even if you raise your goal, right, even if you get really. Even if you set the goal of I'm gonna do 10 million profits in three years, you're gonna have to face the reality that you have an existing business, you have an existing team. You also have bills to pay with your beautiful house in Hawaii. And so raising the floor and beginning to strip those things out to build a better model is gonna be hard for you, and it's gonna seem risky. And so you might delay doing it, and we might talk in a year from now, and we might be having the same conversation. Um, and so raising the floor and beginning to actually strip stuff out and beginning to actually fully commit to and focus and execute on the better model is required. And it feels risky, and it feels like you're letting people down, and it feels like you're doing something. You're letting go of certainty for uncertainty. And so raising the floor is very difficult. But to me, that's where you raise your level of honesty and accountability to yourself, to your future self. And that's where you get the level of conviction that I think is required to scaling. Right. I think that both of you. What got you here was that at a certain point, you committed to something and you got convicted about it and you got focused on it and you did it.

[B]

Yeah, that's great.

[A]

So true. All right, my last question. What is your final piece of advice for people who want to scale their real estate investing businesses? I know you're not a real estate investor, but just what's your best piece of advice?

[C]

I mean, the primary one is what I've been telling you guys, which is actually set the right goal. Set it so high and extreme and urgent, right? No more than three years, so that it forces you to actually find a scalable path, right? A scalable model and path. And like, if you actually did that and then just actually tried to solve that goal, you'd realize that the majority of what you're now doing is optimizing stuff that shouldn't exist. Right? And so you, Brandon, right, You selecting the goal, whether it's scaling this thing that, you know, you feel God told you to do, or whether it's getting to 100 million profits, whatever, whatever it is, you're still a good person. God still loves you. But, like, you know, obviously. But obviously you have. You. You gotta make that choice. But choosing the thing to scale and then taking it to such a high level so that you can actually do it the right way and have a scalable model is. Is awesome. And just being honest about all the things you're currently doing that aren't scaling, which is okay. Letting go of old pathways and old dead ends is Not a bad thing. It's actually a really good sign of growth. Like me letting go of my podcast or. Not a podcast. Me letting go of my YouTube channel or. Or former thing. Even right now, we're letting go of our publisher. Like, I. I published my last five books with Hay House. Like, I am disappointing them and letting them go because, like, to hit our new goal, we need to self publish so that we can give away copies of our book. We need better control, right? And so, like, the goal shapes what. The goal shapes what matters. And, like, with my new goal, yeah, I was with my publisher for five or six years. Did all the Dan Sullivan books. Did Future Self, just did Science of scaling that new goal. I can't have Hay House as part of this equation. Right? Like, literally, it doesn't make sense. And so I've got to. What do I do? Do I just be. Be loyal to my past? No. Like, let the goal shape the system.

[A]

Beautiful, man.

[C]

Awesome.

[A]

All right, Cam, take us out of here.

[B]

Well, hey, where can people find more about you? Find out more about you, your books, everything that you're doing.

[C]

Scaling.com, scaling.com. go to scaling.com and that's where you can learn more. And that's where if you want to learn how to 10x your company in 3 years or less, that's where you go.

[A]

Dude, can I ask. And you don't have to answer this if you don't want to. What did you guys pay for scaling dot com? That's a legit domain name.

[C]

What's your guess?

[A]

750.

[B]

I was thinking it's 2. I didn't.

[C]

2 million. It might be 10x. What one of you said. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. It's part of the mystique, dude. We don't tell people how much we paid for it.

[A]

Oh, fine. That's. All right. I'm gonna. I'm gonna guess it was. It was. I'm gonna guess it was huge. Dude, I appreciate you. Thank you for coming on the show today.

[C]

This was.

[A]

This was phenomenal, man. And everyone should go check out the book. My last thing I'll say about the book is this. My favorite part of the entire book was that you ended each chapter with those journaling questions. I think if people just, like, spent a few minutes on those questions, they would transform their entire business. So if for no other reason, read the book and then actually do those prompts like, I'm gonna go do literally right now, dude, you'll. You'll change your life. So thank you.

[C]

Let me. Let me just finish with this. First off, every time I'm with you, Brandon, like, I'm telling you this genuinely, I think you're freaking amazing, dude. I'm first meeting you. So, Cameron, you know, speaking for first time, you're awesome. But, like, Brandon, you, I hope you give yourself more credit because you are doing insanely cool things and, like, what you're doing is just so awesome. To the idea of scaling.com, though, another part of good strategy is like, truly swinging for the fences, right? So, like you, some of the stories we told in the book, like, playing to win is the idea, like the process. People say, don't play to win, just play to play. But like, when you're actually dealing with good strategy, it is deciding where you're going to go and actually like playing to win. We gave examples of people who, like, were like, we're going to create the number one restaurant in the world. Then they went and did that, right? And so we just decided very intentionally, like, if we're going to go this direction, we might as well just own it. The goal shapes the path, and it just became natural for us to buy scaling.com. we were lucky to get it. Maybe God wanted us to have it. I don't really know. But when you. When you go for the really high goal and you just decide we're going to play to win, then the pathway becomes, you know, you. The pathway becomes less muddled. And so for us, with the scale of our goal, it just like literally made sense that we owned the topic. And. And so we just played the win and. And so the goal sheet the process.

[A]

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Better Life podcast. We hope you enjoy the show. I hope you got some valuable insights to help you lead a better life for you and your family.

[C]

Now.

[A]

Hey, if you found value in this episode, please consider leaving us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us to improve the show, helps us reach more people with this message of living that better life. And be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And hey, before I go, this show is all about the habits, actions, beliefs, and strategies that can give you a better life. But in case you're interested and you want to know my opinion on what it takes to live the best life, not just better. And that's from, like, a more spiritual and faith standpoint, check out abetterlife.com bestlife. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time on the Better Life podcast.