‘28 Years Later: The Bone Temple’ Is Gut-Ripping and Gut-Wrenching. Plus: Mona Fastvold on ‘The Testament of Ann Lee’!

Summary

The Big Picture – Episode Summary

Episode Title: ‘28 Years Later: The Bone Temple’ Is Gut-Ripping and Gut-Wrenching. Plus: Mona Fastvold on ‘The Testament of Ann Lee’!
Release Date: January 16, 2026
Hosts: Sean Fennessey, Amanda Dobbins
Guests: Chris Ryan, Mona Fastvold

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Episode Overview

On this episode, Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins, joined by Chris Ryan, deliver an in-depth discussion of the highly anticipated sequel 28 Years Later: The Bone Temple, exploring its style, themes, and standout performances, particularly the work of director Nia DaCosta and star Ralph Fiennes. Later in the episode, director Mona Fastvold guests for an insightful interview about her new film, The Testament of Ann Lee, delving into creative process, choreography, and the challenges of historical biography. The episode balances enthusiastic cinephilia, critical analysis, and the warm, teasing camaraderie of the hosts.

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Main Discussion: 28 Years Later: The Bone Temple (12:11–52:22)

Introduction and Franchise Context

• The hosts contextualize The Bone Temple as the direct sequel to last year’s 28 Years Later, itself an unexpected continuation of the cult zombie franchise originally helmed by Danny Boyle and written by Alex Garland (12:27).
• The new film is directed by Nia DaCosta, with a script by Garland and cinematography by Sean Bobbitt, known for his work with Steve McQueen (11:44).
• The central cast includes Ralph Fiennes, Jack O’Connell (as Jimmy Crystal), Alfie Williams (as Spike), Aaron Kellyman, and Chi Louis Perry. DaCosta brings a new visual and tonal sensibility to the series.

First Impressions

• Chris Ryan:
  "Unbelievably almost loved it almost as much as I loved the first one... Anita DaCosta just has like a completely different visual language. ... It's a brutal watch, but it's also a really, really, really funny movie." (12:43)
• Amanda Dobbins:
  Finds the movie “pure gnarly and then honestly like pure entertainment,” especially drawn to the sequences featuring Ralph Fiennes dancing to ’80s new wave and the inventive use of music. (13:43)

On DaCosta’s Direction and the Film’s Tonal Shift

• DaCosta’s approach is described as more classically horror than the messier, risk-taking Danny Boyle entries, with significant doses of visceral violence and psychological tension, drawing inspiration from her Candyman reboot and European war trauma films like Come and See (13:43, 14:47).
• “There's a kind of funny games-esque torture aspect… pure viscera, that human viscera, not just the zombie apocalypse stuff” – Sean Fennessey (14:47).

Structure and World-Building

• The conversation highlights the film’s success as a middle entry in a trilogy, embracing the opportunity to experiment with character focus and narrative style, much like Empire Strikes Back or The Two Towers (16:23).
• The narrative largely sidelines Spike, foregrounding Jimmy Crystal and Dr. Kelson, and deepens the depiction of a post-apocalyptic British society that has normalized its trauma, with little expository hand-holding (17:08–19:54).

Character Analysis & Thematic Depth

• Jimmy Crystal (Jack O'Connell):
  Seen as a mesmerizing cult leader—charlatan but magnetic. “You can see a little bit of his kind of insecurity and vulnerability just in flash...he is a charlatan, and it's communicated to the audience, but it's not overt, because he is able to command his flock." – Sean (24:09)
• Dr. Kelson (Ralph Fiennes):
  Positioned as an isolated, traumatized but compassionate scientist (a “Dr. Fauci” for the post-apocalypse), searching for an evolutionary treatment and connection with the “Alpha” infected, Samson (28:00-30:02).
• The dichotomy between Jimmy’s demagoguery and Kelson’s reason/compassion is repeatedly emphasized as the film’s philosophical engine.
• Notable moment: Fiennes’ “showman” turn as the “Dark Lord,” culminating in a wild music-and-fire performance set to Iron Maiden’s “Number of the Beast” (38:33).

Key Themes & Execution

• Evolution of the Rage Virus:
  Explored through Kelson’s attempts to humanize and medically treat an infected “Alpha,” raising questions about scientific hope and the limits of empathy (29:09–31:34).
• Societal Amnesia and Survival:
  Characters struggle with fading memories of the old world and what it means to persist after decades of catastrophe—a subject handled organically without clunky exposition.

Standout Quotes

• “DaCosta just has like a completely different visual language…her camera is much more of a witness than it is like a protagonist.” – Chris Ryan (12:43)
• “Any movie where Ralph Fiennes is dancing is just…automatically in my personal hall of fame.” – Amanda Dobbins (13:43)
• “There's not going to be ten more of these. That this was pitched as a trilogy, sold as a trilogy...that makes me more at ease with the structure of the story.” – Sean Fennessey (41:17)
• “The hallmark of these last two films for me has been a real shock at what is unfolding on screen.” – Chris Ryan (26:35)

Notable Scenes & Set Pieces

• Fire Dance Sequence: Ralph Fiennes as Kelson impersonates the “Dark Lord” for the cult, delivering a “ravishing visual performance” involving shoulder weights and flames, drawing cheers from both the fictional audience and screening attendees. (38:33–39:48)

• Cillian Murphy Return: A two-minute coda reveals Murphy’s original series protagonist raising his daughter, thematically reflecting on history and the consequences of vengeance and mercy post-conflict (37:15–38:05).

• “If you need like, an example of why Alex Garland is really, really good: you can have a character sort of off half off screen for some of the scene discussing Churchill and how that...if those forget history are doomed to repeat it.” – Chris Ryan (37:47)

Franchise Future & Critical Standing

• The hosts ruminate on the prospects for the next (final) installment, with Danny Boyle expected to return to direct. All agree this film is further proof that the 28 franchise is "the most creatively invigorating running franchise in movies right now” (40:18).
• “I needed DaCosta season tickets now...I'm just so thrilled with what she did with this.” – Chris Ryan (52:00)

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Ralph Fiennes Hall of Fame Discussion (45:11–52:24)

• The hosts create an impromptu “Ralph Fiennes Hall of Fame,” debating his 10 essential performances, highlighting his range across Schindler’s List, The English Patient, Grand Budapest Hotel, Bigger Splash, and the Potterverse, among others.
• Notable quote: “About five or six years into his career, he just develops this ability to go from he can play the fifth on the call sheet to the first on the call sheet. And he makes as big of an impact either way." – Chris Ryan (46:37)

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Interview & Mini-Review: The Testament of Ann Lee with Mona Fastvold (53:01–106:50)

Film Overview (53:01–61:40)

• The Testament of Ann Lee is a creatively daring, dance-infused biopic/musical of 18th-century Shaker founder Ann Lee, starring Amanda Seyfried.

• Sean and Amanda praise its “radical movement,” choreography, and Amanda Seyfried’s “god tier” performance, though also noting the film’s challenging, sometimes alienating qualities, and the rawness of themes like childbirth and tragedy.

  “It's a cool act of not just synthesis, but synchronization. Like the choreography and the music... fits the filmmaking style. The movie, the camera moves and the story moves the way that the Shakers move.” – Sean Fennessey (55:41)

Interview with Mona Fastvold (64:04–106:44)

Creative Process and Research (64:04–72:05)

• Fastvold describes the years-long gestation for the film, her research into scarce Shaker writing, and how personal intuition shaped the “speculative retelling” of Ann Lee’s life.
• The film’s focus is “conversation with what happened” rather than strict biographical recreation (67:42).

Artistic Vision and Practical Execution (72:59–84:29)

• Fastvold intentionally avoided irony or debunking, striving for respect and seriousness despite the story’s “absurd” aspects.
• “The hard route is to take her seriously and to treat her with respect. It's more difficult, I think. And it felt more radical, in a way...” (72:59)
• Lots of detail on how the choreography and music were constructed in tandem with the writing, striving for authenticity.
• Reveals some visual trickery—using actual ships, matte painting, and period carpentry to achieve sweeping period vistas on an indie budget (84:29–88:32).

Collaboration with Amanda Seyfried (90:56–96:03)

• Seyfried committed a year in advance, learning the role’s accent, dance, and singing, and working deeply on the physical and emotional demands.
• “She had to kind of unlearn [her musical training] and just start trying to find a place where she's just not listening to herself.” (91:47)
• Details on balancing realism, rawness, and devotional energy in Seyfried’s performance.

Hollywood vs. Indie Filmmaking (97:41–104:07)

• Fastvold discusses preserving autonomy and communal spirit in filmmaking, even as major studio distributors (Disney Searchlight) pick up her work.
• Expresses ambivalence but a clear philosophy: “I will always make the movies the way I want to make them. And if the studio wants to make them with me the way that I want to make them, then that makes sense.” (98:45)

Final Reflections (105:07–106:44)

• Fastvold praises Lovers on the Bridge as a creative inspiration, emphasizing the value and ambition of non-commercial filmmaking.

  “It's the ambition and I think it's the physicality. There's a lot of movement in it as well, which is, like, incredible. It's like one of the best, most incredible physical perform—performance artists and performances that exists.” – Mona Fastvold (105:57)

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Notable and Memorable Moments

• Ralph Fiennes’ “bone temple” dance (38:33)
• Cillian Murphy’s surprise return and discussion of history’s cyclical trauma (37:15–38:05)
• Chris’s comparison of franchise structure to Empire Strikes Back and The Two Towers (16:23)
• Mona Fastvold’s technical breakdown of low-budget epic filmmaking (84:29–88:32)
• Amanda Seyfried’s preparation and “fearless” sincerity (91:47–96:03)

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Important Timestamps

• [12:11] Introduction to 28 Years Later: The Bone Temple discussion
• [13:43] Chris and Amanda’s first impressions
• [17:08] Analysis of character focus and world-building
• [24:09] Notable characterization of Jimmy Crystal
• [29:09] Dr. Kelson, morality, and the Alpha
• [37:15] Cillian Murphy’s character returns
• [38:33] Fire dance / “Dark Lord” sequence
• [41:17] Reflecting on franchise future
• [45:11] Ralph Fiennes Hall of Fame segment
• [53:01] Transition to The Testament of Ann Lee
• [64:04] Interview with Mona Fastvold begins

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Key Takeaways

• 28 Years Later: The Bone Temple cements the trilogy as a bold, risk-taking, and thematically complex franchise, marked by distinct directorial voices and top-tier performances (especially by Fiennes and O’Connell).
• Nia DaCosta’s direction brings a stylistic and tonal shift, blending horror, humor, and philosophical resonance.
• The film’s most powerful set pieces—particularly Fiennes's fire dance—mix dark spectacle with character-driven drama.
• The Testament of Ann Lee stands out as a singular work: a dance-driven, musical-historical epic, with an intensely physical and sincere lead turn by Amanda Seyfried.
• Mona Fastvold articulates the creative rewards and logistical challenges of mounting ambitious, idiosyncratic films within the strictures of independent cinema.
• Both films and their creators share an unwillingness to pander, choosing instead to trust in the intelligence and curiosity of their audience.

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End of summary. For an immersive experience, key scenes and deep themes can be queued up as referenced by the timestamps above.

Transcript

[Amanda Davins]

This episode is brought to you by Disney. Marvel's got something new up their sleeve. A Hollywood superhero series. Wait for it. About making a Hollywood superhero film. This new Wonder man has some serious surprises in store. It's about Von Kovac, an award winning director coming out of retirement, promising to redefine the genre. While Simon Williams, an aspiring actor with secret superpowers, goes after his dream role as Wonder man with the help of his mentor, True Trevor Slattery. Starring Emmy winner Yahya Abdul Mateen II and Oscar winner Ben Kingsley. Don't miss Marvel Television's Wonder Man. Streaming January 27th at 6pm PT only on Disney.

[Sean Fennessy]

This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com TheBigPicture Terms and Conditions apply. I'm Sean Fennessy.

[Amanda Davins]

I'm Amanda Davins and this is the.

[Sean Fennessy]

Big Picture, a conversation show about bone temples and Shaker prophets. Today on the show we are breaking down 28 years later. Colon the bone temple with the bone God himself. Chris Ryan, the Alpha is back. He'll be hanging dong later. Also later in this episode, I'll be joined by Mona Fastvold, the co writer and director of the Testament of Ann Lee, a combo biopic musical about the spiritual leader of the Shaker Religious movement in 18th century England and America. Sounds like very normal content.

[Chris Ryan]

Do me a favor, don't set me up so that I tell some incredibly like revealing, weird story and then you're like and now my interview with.

[Sean Fennessy]

We'll circle back on bodice ripping right before that convo. Ann Lee is a wild movie, fascinating, ambitious. Amanda and I both really liked it. We'll talk about it a little bit before our conversation with Mona. Amanda Seyfried is at the center of it as Anne Lee and is incredible. Stick around for the conversation. It's a nice continuation, I think, of my conversation with Brady Courbet from last year about the brutalist and the way that they make movies together. So if you are interested in Ann Lee, go see the movie and listen to that convo. But first I wanted to point out a couple things to you guys. One, this podcast has been nominated for best TV and film podcast by the I Heart Podcast Awards. Did you. Did you know that, Chris?

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't know that.

[Sean Fennessy]

So what are you gonna do about it? When are you gonna start the bot army voting? Right now.

[Chris Ryan]

It's gonna be interesting to see who claims third chair credit for this.

[Mona Fastvold]

Ah.

[Chris Ryan]

And will it be?

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, like, what are there.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this where Pulitzer Prize winners start calling you out of the cracks and be like, oh, I couldn't possibly accept.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, so who's on the short list?

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah. Do they enumerate who the actual nominees are by name?

[Sean Fennessy]

I wanna know. It's sor producers thing where it's like you have a certain number of names that can be submitted. So. Of course, myself, Amanda, Jack Sanders, we make the show every episode. You, Chris Ryan. An essential part of this operation. Philosophically, yeah. But in the material sense, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Would you say you've got it over, say, Tracy Letts or Alex Ross Perry or.

[Chris Ryan]

That's not my place. That's not really my place to say. I know how I feel. You know what I mean?

[Sean Fennessy]

What about Joanna or Mal? Like, what other names can we put on the list?

[Chris Ryan]

It sounds like you guys don't need me anymore.

[Sean Fennessy]

Rob Mahoney.

[Mona Fastvold]

Then.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Some really strong voices.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, so are there even enough natural stones in the world to make that many trophies?

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, it's a really good question. What is the iHeart podcast award trophy look like? Do we know? I don't know.

[Amanda Davins]

I would like to hear about Chris's plans for the acceptance speech. Yeah, if you, if you'd like to be involved, concept it out.

[Sean Fennessy]

You gotta get Nathaniel Hornblower back out there.

[Chris Ryan]

That would be funny. A couple of other things to mention to you guys.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thanks. You're a part of it as well. Obviously. Dante Moore is going back to Oregon. We discussed this during our auction story.

[Chris Ryan]

Because they, they just got Dylan Raola from Nebraska. Oregon did. I'm. I'm a portal guy.

[Sean Fennessy]

We know that about you.

[Amanda Davins]

Okay. Weirdly, I do know what that means. Do you want to explain that for everyone else? He was only a sophomore. I'm learning.

[Sean Fennessy]

Dante. Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

Red shirt, sophomore.

[Sean Fennessy]

Fewer than 20 career starts under his belt.

[Amanda Davins]

So I, I, that I see why.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought he was leaving. I think that I'LL be curious to see what happens now because Dylan Raylo was not cheap. Now I don't really have to.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's going to say it. Moore's going to play again because so.

[Chris Ryan]

Many guys got like two more years of eligibility.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's not going to play. There's no way. Because a bunch of guys from the defensive line at Oregon also stayed and they didn't think they were like, damari Washington is going back. That's really weird.

[Chris Ryan]

They just, they get paid pretty decently to stay in college.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know. And people said this, they said that they. This could be an option. You know, this is not a Jets podcast, but this really materially impacts me. I think this is great news for the Jets.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, did you see that, like Ty Simpson was getting offered like $6 million.

[Sean Fennessy]

To stay in my home? Yeah. I don't want the jets to draft a underdeveloped young kid and then get thrust into the worst situation in professional sports. So for me as a fan, I actually think it'd be fine if they went 0:17 and then got Arch Manning. That sounds fine. Are you, Are you.

[Mona Fastvold]

Oh, wow.

[Amanda Davins]

And you. Do you want to be in the Arch Manning business?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. It worked for you. I, you know, why not?

[Amanda Davins]

That's true.

[Chris Ryan]

True.

[Sean Fennessy]

I, I can't change the Woody Johnson fact of the jets, but I can get as many good players as possible into the mix. That's all we can do to try to be successful.

[Amanda Davins]

Is Arch good?

[Sean Fennessy]

He improved.

[Amanda Davins]

Okay. I just have seen like control concern, trolling podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

I think if you're going to draft Arch Banning. I like Aaron Glenn, like, as a dude, I don't really know how what the experience of cheering for his team is, but I think you need like a quarterback whisperer if you're going to draft.

[Sean Fennessy]

My. The secret, the underbelly of my take is that I think this means that the jets will really struggle and Glenn will get fired and then they will hire an offensive guru.

[Amanda Davins]

You fired that guy Kevin Petullo? Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

There's now discussions that he's just been demoted. Much like me here, you know, moved out of the third chair.

[Sean Fennessy]

If we win the iHeart Award, I will, I will saw mine in half and give you the other half.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks, bud.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Kevin Petullo got demoted and I listened to a 45 minute podcast already about who we should hire. I've had an extensive conversation with Zach and Andy about who we should hire. There's a lot of ideas being thrown around in that group chat. There's a lot of emotions, a Lot of fan fiction being written about Brian Dable. And Jalen hurts his relationship in the 2017 national championship.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

Whether or not like they're boys, whether they hate each other. So it's like, it's an intense time.

[Amanda Davins]

It's very sensitive to me. I know.

[Chris Ryan]

I. And I feel weird because this is definitely the topic I am most conversant on in all of the world.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is not interesting to 90% of the audience, but Phoebe walked by me.

[Chris Ryan]

The other day, like yesterday actually, and was like, saw that I had a Dexter Filkins New Yorker piece up on the screen. And she was like, how is that? I was thinking of reading it. And I was like, your usual Dexter Filkins just really well reported in every other tab was like video essays about fucking Mike McDaniel offensive system.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thank you for entertaining this. Thank you. This little sideline. I appreciate your patience.

[Amanda Davins]

Since last we met.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, this is just sort of like.

[Amanda Davins]

News and news and notes. Been looking at earrings. Should I get my ears pierced in 2026?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, you got such rave reviews. Performance at the Globe.

[Amanda Davins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, those were clip ons.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, those were clip ons. They were borrowed from my friend Lauren who took them off her ears on Saturday night and gave them to me to wear Sunday night. That is true friendship. I really like them. Those were really nice fancy earrings. So I can't start there. And the thing about piercing your ears. I don't know if you guys remember this from having sisters or girlfriends and you know, when you were teenagers. Neither. You have to leave the studs in for a while. Yeah. And that I could never make it through leaving the studs in for however many weeks. I looked too much like my mother. It was that there was something about the face symmetry where I can't wear small earrings because that's just really. Then I. And I was just like, I'm not ready emotionally for this.

[Sean Fennessy]

But now you've crossed.

[Amanda Davins]

But then I did. I felt really fancy wearing the earrings and I liked that. So, I mean, obviously there are clip on earrings out in the world.

[Sean Fennessy]

If you do get them pierced. I get to film you and post it on the YouTube channel. Yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

Why? Because you think that that would be painful. Oh, I would be listening.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it would just be amusing.

[Amanda Davins]

Like IVF and two kids. Like, I'm good. They can shoot whatever in my ears. I'm fine.

[Sean Fennessy]

They can shoot whatever.

[Chris Ryan]

I think you should do it. I think you should do it.

[Amanda Davins]

Okay. Yeah. But I. I haven't solved for the problem of the six Weeks until they. Or I.

[Sean Fennessy]

Maybe.

[Amanda Davins]

Maybe they've improved times.

[Sean Fennessy]

You should wear a beanie on the show for like six weeks. Just cover your ears for every episode. I think that would be good.

[Chris Ryan]

You should wear a Deadpool mask.

[Sean Fennessy]

Just as a countdown to doomsday. Yeah, yeah. Will Deadpool be in doomsday? Will he return?

[Chris Ryan]

For sure.

[Amanda Davins]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you see the Russos tweeted?

[Sean Fennessy]

I did see this.

[Chris Ryan]

A very cryptic thing about.

[Sean Fennessy]

These are not trailers and they are not teasers.

[Chris Ryan]

They're clues and stories.

[Amanda Davins]

Well, I think I've solved it.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think that there's going to be like a extinction level event hitting all of these characters, like in the first five minutes?

[Sean Fennessy]

I suppose that's possible, but how is this a clue?

[Amanda Davins]

Then what happens to the baby?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know.

[Amanda Davins]

And also in which does an extinction level event happening in one multiverse affect all multiverses?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, it depends on the kind of event. And I also. Is that my camera? I don't know who Steve Rogers baby is. I just want to say that I kind of got.

[Sean Fennessy]

You think it's Dante Moore. What are we talking about here?

[Chris Ryan]

I used to be really into cable.

[Sean Fennessy]

Cable? Yeah, the character, Cable Time traveler.

[Chris Ryan]

Read his comments.

[Amanda Davins]

I was like, oh, you switched to YouTube TV?

[Chris Ryan]

No, me and Bill keeping Spectrum afloat. I think I knew about cable.

[Sean Fennessy]

Made an appearance.

[Chris Ryan]

And there's a baby in cable that, like, they have to.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it was cable in Deadpool too. Yeah. Josh Brolin.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I know, but I'm not one.

[Amanda Davins]

No, I didn't. There's a baby in cable. Is that.

[Chris Ryan]

It's Nathan Summers. It's like Jean Grey and Cyclops kid. Havoc.

[Sean Fennessy]

Havoc. Yeah, yeah. Is it character? I thought. I thought it was the character.

[Chris Ryan]

There's somebody.

[Amanda Davins]

He's a cable. A person or a movie?

[Chris Ryan]

He's a person.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

So there's a baby inside the person?

[Chris Ryan]

No, no, he's just.

[Sean Fennessy]

He carries him around. Protecting him.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And then there's like a mutant.

[Sean Fennessy]

Very like Alien Terminator influenced run of X Men comics with time travel and apocalyptic events. Bishop was the man. Yeah, yeah. He had big guns.

[Chris Ryan]

Anyway, Doomsday.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Every episode should start with a doomsday update. It's like the new Odyssey, but we hate it, you know? Like, what's going on with these fucking idiots? Let's talk about a really good movie. Let's talk about 28 years later, the Bone Temple. That was a lot of throat clearing for an episode about a movie that I think we're all pretty excited about. So this is the follow up to last summer's 28 Years later, which was the follow up to two previous 28 films. It featured the return of Danny Boyle. These scripts are written by Alex Garland. It was their reunion back then. It was your number one movie of 2025. Nia DaCosta, the filmmaker, is stepping in now for the Bone Temple. It is again written by Garland. She is bringing with her her the cinematographer she's been working with recently, who is probably best known for his work with Steve McQueen. Sean Bobbitt. We'll talk about him a little bit. And the film stars as 28 Years later starred Ralph Fiennes. Jack O', Connell, after the ending of 28 Years later is back in a big role here. Alfie Williams, who played Spike in the last film. Aaron Kellyman and Chi Louis Perry also return. Taking place after the events of the previous film. Spike is inducted into Sir Jimmy Crystal's gang of acrobatic killers in a post apocalyptic Britain ravaged by the rage virus. Meanwhile, Dr. Ian Kelson forms a new relationship with potentially world changing consequences. Chris, I'm going to start with you. What did you think of the Bone Temple?

[Chris Ryan]

Unbelievably almost loved it almost as much as I loved the first one. If, if there's 10 better movies than this this year, it's going to be nuts. And it works in very different ways than the first 28 years later, to me at least. I mean, like I had such an emotional reaction to the first one of, you know, the third film in this series. Anita Costa just has like a completely different visual language that she's using. I think her camera is much more of a witness than it is like a protagonist in this film, but in a very cool way. And I kept thinking about her recent appearance on the Criterion Closet where she talked a lot about Come and See and the Cranes Are Flying and movies about what happens to the sort of collective psyche of people after they've gone through like a war or you know, in this case an apocalypse. And I think that's really what was driving a lot of the stuff in this movie. And it's a brutal watch, but it's also a really, really, really funny movie. Yeah, What'd you think?

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, I mean it's definitely gnarly and I would say 28 years later was extremely gnarly and also had a few more action set pieces built within the gnarliness. And I would say that this is just, is pure gnarly and then honestly like pure entertainment. Any Movie where Ralph Fiennes is dancing is just. It's automatically in my personal hall of fame. It's really important. I was also thinking about it. I've obviously been listening to both the Marty supreme score, but also the Marty supreme playlist. And if you build your movie textually around like 80s new wave, I'm in, you know, like, I just. Absolutely.

[Sean Fennessy]

She's having a moment.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, so, but so there are a lot of, you know, flourishes. And as you'd like, Nita Costa brings her own sensibility to this well established world and it like really played for me. And I'm not someone who likes to see people skinned alive.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. This is two things. One, this is an extremely violent movie. More violent than the last film, I would argue. Probably more violent than the previous two installments in part because it's really more of a pure horror movie. It's not just a zombie movie. But it is. There's a kind of funny games esque torture aspect to the Green Bean stranger. Pure viscera, that human viscera, not just the zombie apocalypse stuff. And then also I think because Nia DaCosta did have a kind of Candyman reboot that she made a few years ago, she understands the mechanics of horror movies. This movie is using those mechanics much more so than what Boyle was doing, which is a really excitingly messy movie in a lot of ways. And there's a lot of risk taking formally is happening in that movie. This movie is more of a classical horror structured film. It doesn't have as much incident though, and it doesn't have as many set pieces. And I think that there will be some people who struggle with it because quote unquote, not as much happens. Or you could say by the time you get to the end of it, like it didn't change.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I think if any big revelation, I mean, there's two rather large revelations towards the end of the film. And I think one of them might just be like kind of lost to history, you know, I mean, it's a little ambiguous, but.

[Sean Fennessy]

Meaning if they don't make a third film.

[Chris Ryan]

No, the third film I think seems nailed on to happen. But like the. There's things that happen towards the end of the movie that are like, could be world changing, but also could just be lost to the sands of time.

[Sean Fennessy]

I see what you're saying. Yes, we will get into that and we'll get spoilery as we go along here. The thing that jumped out to me as I thought about it immediately after it ended was that this is a really interesting installment in the second in a trilogy.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Run.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's technically the fourth 28 movie, but since these movies were conceived together and Garland wrote them together, and I never sold my Garland stock and I never will. And this movie, again, proves to me that he is so good at not just creating propulsive action, but blending theme and deep ideas about the modern world into conventionally entertaining movies. But this is like in. I'm not saying it's as good as these films, but it accomplishes a similar thing to Empire Strikes Back, Dark Knight, Two Towers, Last Jedi, Ocean's Twelve, where it's like, this is the place to take some risks, to do some different things. They may feel like side quests. They can end in really, like, beguiling and upsetting ways because you know that there's something else coming on the other side. You know, there's going to be a third installment. It sounds like Danny Boyle is coming back for that third installment.

[Chris Ryan]

I think so, yes.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah. Based on what we see and what we know about it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right. And so this movie, it leans a bit away from Spike, the character.

[Chris Ryan]

It does, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, he's not the central focus of the story for much of it, though he is present throughout the entire movie. And it leans towards Jimmy crystal and his seven fingers, these bandits, these evil bandits, and then Dr. Kelson and Samson. Who is the alpha that you mentioned, who is an infected Mega Man. Yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

Who was with a heart of gold.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, a heart of dope, sure. In the first film, he is shown as, like, a kind of infected leader, one that seems to be evolving. And I think in the backdrop of that, you start to think about, like, you know, steps of evolution, even for some.

[Sean Fennessy]

For.

[Chris Ryan]

For zombies. You know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? God. You know, like, the point you're making about the second film thing is really interesting because I thought that this was a tremendously cool way to world build without showing it, like, going deeper into, like, these different characters that we had maybe seen in the background of the first film. You know, obviously, Jack o' Connell's Jimmy shows up in the very beginning and the very end of the first film with some spots in the middle. And Dr. Kelson exists as a kind of like, wizard of Oz character in the first film, but is obviously very humanized in this movie and is vulnerable and weird and funny and longing. And I felt like I understood so much more about the state of the world without ever getting a voiceover or title card explaining what was happening anywhere outside of the United Kingdom.

[Amanda Davins]

And Even the way they introduced the new characters who are kind of stuck between the fingers.

[Chris Ryan]

And the Alpha.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah. And the Alpha and everything. But those characters, what they've been up to, how they're living, where they're living, just kind of gives you more pieces of. Okay, like, this is how the virus infected some people and how other people are. And so it expands it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

But without having to do any exposition. No one in that house says, well, four years ago, we, like, put up this fence. And, like, here is how the combination code. Likes, there's. It's just.

[Sean Fennessy]

You just accept. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a really good point, because it being years later and not days or months later, it gives it, like, an added sense of, like, acceptance around what has happened to this. This part of the world. We know that it's only really these British Isles. Right. That are trapped in this way, that the world at large, Europe at large, has staved off the virus, but these people are stuck.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. There's this funny thing happening where, you know, Kelson, the finds character, at one point, says that he's starting to basically forget what life was like before the infection, before the outbreak of the virus.

[Amanda Davins]

Right. Well, he's talking with the Jimmy fingers character, Jack McConnell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like, you're eight, so you probably don't remember. Here's what I remember. And he's like, I don't remember going to shops.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And he's like, the. I remember having a personal computer, but I.

[Amanda Davins]

You know.

[Chris Ryan]

But I don't. But, like, now big chunks of time are disappearing. And on the flip side of that, the experience of this film is it's being released just a matter of months after the original. So you actually do have this sense of continuity. It's just a great experience because you have the sense of continuity with the characters and the story. You don't have to, like, teach yourself anything before going to it, but it's just different enough and just. It's got that new perspective from DaCosta of, like, okay, well, what if we shot it more like this? And what if it felt more like that? And what if really the infected were a tertiary worry? I mean, there's a couple of points here where some of the more accomplished killers in this movie treat an Infected running at them like, oh, who cares, and I'll just cut this person.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's like ninja warfare. Yeah. They're all samurais out there who have a ton of experience managing. And we see that. You know, there is this other group of people that you're alluding to that are in the film who are sort of just like native villagers who protect themselves and occasionally attempt to kind of hunt and explore the world at large. And they have way less experience, even 28 years later, way less ability to effectively kill these. These fast moving creatures. And that was obviously the innovation of the original film was that it felt like very novel and new, that the zombies were fast, but we're kind of like dispensed with that. There's been so much zombie stuff in 28 years. We need to find other places to go. And I really like where Garland wanted to go. And there's two tracts of it, and I think they're obviously speaking to each other. There's the Kelson tract, the sort of the Healer, and then there's Jimmy Crystal and the Fingers, and the sort of like, rage and opportunity to pursue like a. A cult apparatus in the face of these kinds of tragedies. And the way you can kind of compel people to join you when no one knows which way is up. Which one do you want to talk about first?

[Chris Ryan]

Let's talk about Jimmy first.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought this was a fascinating characterization of somebody who I think you can kind of see in genre pieces across cinematic history, where it's just like this person who's taking advantage of, like, a particularly dire situation to create a cult around them and is saying, like, that they're the chosen person, that they are the chosen one who's getting communications from the Dark Lord. You got to do what I'm telling you, whether it's David Koresh or whatever, these people who are like kind of these. These incredibly central figures in this kind of story. And then I. I just. There's a couple of scenes with him in this movie where I just.

[Sean Fennessy]

I.

[Chris Ryan]

Rather than being revolted by him in. And even though he is like an absolutely amazing villain, I thought he was fascinating. The conversation that he winds up having with Kelson is so good and so interesting. And his sort of like, only I can hear the devil's teachings because I am his chosen son and all the stuff that he's doing. And Garland's not like, shy about, like. Obviously there's a lot of echoes of, like, of contemporary leadership in. In our real world that he's talking about in this movie, but he's never, like, too over the top with it. You know what I mean? Like, I never thought it was too.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, it's. It's grounded and I credit Garland, which is something I don't say Very often on this podcast, both for the. The character is, like, is. Is quite literally of this earth. And so, you know, he's like, negotiating with the Kelsen character, and he's kind of like, here's my problem, and, like, here's where I am with my dad.

[Chris Ryan]

He.

[Amanda Davins]

He hasn't taken on full cult of personality. And then the way that Jack o' Connell plays him, even when he's in, like, full cult leader mode and giving all his speeches, it's. It's weird. You know, it's a little. It's. He's trying to pump himself up.

[Sean Fennessy]

You can see a little bit of his kind of insecurity and vulnerability just in flash.

[Amanda Davins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like, he is a charlatan, and it's communicated to the audience, but it's not overt.

[Amanda Davins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

Because he is able to command his flock. He really can get these people to do these awful things to innocence. And that. That is, like, that's the persuasive power of cult, like, leadership.

[Chris Ryan]

And the thing that unites the. The performance that Fiennes gives in the performance that o' Connell gives is that, like, you could run that thing with 99 out of 100 actors, and it would just be a disaster. Like, if this didn't work, it would be almost unwatchable.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And they both.

[Sean Fennessy]

And it's hard to look at a lot of what they do. I mean, I, I. You've gotten a lot tougher over the years, but I saw you wincing in your seat a lot when we were watching this, because it's really gnarly. Like you said, gnarly.

[Amanda Davins]

Sometimes I'm just kind of like, you know, I'm looking elsewhere. I've. I've trained myself to be like, okay, I understand what you're doing. And now I don't need to, like, see any more people being. Being peeled. Though I did find, and I know this is like a horror movie convention, a lot of the real moments of violence happen off screen. Like, a lot of the knifings happen. And, like, you cut away or, like, you know, a hook or something goes in. And I understand that you can't, like, film all the time.

[Sean Fennessy]

Elements of surprise, too.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah. And, like, implication and that. Not sometimes not seeing things as scarier.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Amanda Davins]

But so I did okay. But, yeah, it was gnarly.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I think the other thing, too, is that Da Casa's arc is fascinating and weird. She made a small Sundance indie, and then she made a Candyman reboot, and then she made a Marvel movie, which is the lowest Grossing Marvel movie.

[Chris Ryan]

She was pretty open about being an unpleasant experience.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I clearly went into the blender and it doesn't seem like she got to make exactly the movie she wanted to make. And then she just made this reimagining of Hedda Gobbler. Hedda, which is on prime right now, if people wanna watch it. That came out last year, which I thought was interesting, but particularly there's a sense of anything can happen, violent chaos in that movie, which is really just like a chamber piece at a party.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But it does seem like anybody could get shot in the head at any moment in that movie. And this movie has the same tool, like, it has the same strength, where a character who you think is going to be with us for a long time could die at any moment. And there are real stakes against the figures that we're following. And because the movie kind of background spike a little bit, there's like a. There is a real sense of unpredictability in it.

[Chris Ryan]

The hallmark of these last two films for me has been a real shock at what is unfolding on screen. Like, I think I went into the first film expecting it to be much more about Aaron Taylor Johnson and Jodie Comer. I had no idea that this kid was going to be the hero of the film. And I had no idea that the movie was going to deviate from your more traditional, like, us versus the infected narrative into this kind of like, almost like, you know, super cathartic ideas about grief and letting go and death and all this stuff. And in this film, I kind of just expected the Spike stuff to pick up. And so this idea that these two ideologies are basically on a collision course, and those ideologies are as plain as day of the. Of science and reason versus faith or demagoguery, you know, and. And it's. To be able to do that, it's not even like Trojan horsing. It's like. It's really like hiding your punches until they can be the most effective swings.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. We should talk about probably the Kelson strain of this and how it intersects with the infected as well. I don't mind saying. I was watching the movie and I was like, so this is Dr. Anthony Fauci. That's who Dr. Kelson is. Like, there's very clearly a, like, heal or heal thyself narrative here. And Kelsum is introduced in the last film as potentially a threat. A man gone mad who covers himself in iodine. We assume it's blood.

[Mona Fastvold]

Exactly.

[Amanda Davins]

And he's building a Giant bone temple.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. He literally built a bone temple. He is treating and clearing, you know, at the beginning of this film, he is, you know, clearing the sort of cartilage away from bones after he, you know, burns them up. And it seems like he's a crazy person, but the film goes to great lengths to show us that he's still like a man of science and still studying and still trying to learn. And we watched in the last film, him slowly building this relationship with the Alpha Samson, who, you know, once again is just nude throughout the film. This film is unafraid to show Samson in full. And he realizes that when he sort of neutralizes him, narcotizes him with his blow dart, that Samson is not just docile, but, like, maybe there's something else going on behind the eyes, that his humanity has been unlocked in some way and it starts to get his wheels turning and he starts to think on, if not a cure, a kind of evolution of the virus, a treatment. Yes. And, you know, maybe a solution to this problem that is.

[Amanda Davins]

That is completely a vaccine, a vaccine of sorts.

[Sean Fennessy]

And Kelson is shown to be like a very sensible, sensitive, sincere person. It's not a cynical portrayal of a person like this at all.

[Amanda Davins]

And a lonely person too, you know, because he keeps. He empathizes with the. With Samson, with the Alpha, but wants him to, like, speak as well, you know, and the music is woven in because he's, like, lost all contact with, like, other humans. And so this is. These are like his memories. And he sings and dances and listens to the music.

[Sean Fennessy]

Lots of Duran Duran.

[Amanda Davins]

Yes. Because he wants, like, you know, he's just looking for some sort of connection. So. And I think that it's not just that he's, like, practical and looking for the cure, but he's trying to cure himself in a way as well.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sure, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, there's also, like, some really interesting stuff. So basically, I mean, we allowed to be a little bit more detailed about how we're talking about it.

[Sean Fennessy]

We've already spoiled a bunch of this movie. If you don't want to hear any more, go see the film.

[Chris Ryan]

The treatment plan is essentially opiates. You know, he's giving the Alpha, he's giving Samson morphine. And after a few weeks or however long it's been that he's been treating him and that clearly Samson is regaining some elements of humanity. If still, like, unable to speak, he's essentially in language, running out of morphine, like morphine supply in the United Kingdom. And this is something that comes Up a couple of times in the film where, you know, there's that commune that you were talking about of villagers are using spears. Like we are running out of the sort of man made resources of the old world. The guns, the, the drugs, the everything that we've kind of built up. And he's just kind of talking to himself, but talking to Samson and he says, this is with the rate you're consuming this, we have about two more weeks or you can take the big trip. And I put you out and I put you to sleep and you go out in like a way. And he's like, but if you could just consent, like if you could just tell me that's okay. And he's just basically kind of saying that out loud to himself. And as he's about to give this guy the shot, Samson says moon, which is, you know, a revelation but also kind of tragic because now this guy is obviously showing progress, but they're running out of the medicine that they need to treat his psychosis, essentially.

[Amanda Davins]

Did you notice the poppies that showed up in the field at the very end of the movie?

[Sean Fennessy]

You know what?

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't.

[Amanda Davins]

While Ralph Fiennes was dancing. Yeah. There are red poppies throughout the opiates. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not unlike the wizard of oz. Just like Dr. Kelson, the wizard of Oz figure. I found this component of the movie to be what separated it from other things I think a lot of filmmakers can do. We're going to have crazy people peeling skin off and this will be like a fun time at the movies in a good January movie. This the contrast between these two components. And just utilizing Ralph Fiennes, who we sing his praises anytime he shows up in a movie. The three of us love him. He might be the most daring and flexible post movie star that we have. He has made so many different kinds of movies. He can take on any kind of complex material. He doesn't have to be making the third and fourth, 28 movies. You could say this is very easily above his pay grade and he could just be making Shakespearean adaptations, but he fucking loves this shit. He likes being Voldemort. He likes going into these worlds. And he's so, so, so special in this movie because he's so free with his body. He's so unafraid. I mean, he's practically nude throughout the entire film.

[Chris Ryan]

Covered in orange, covered in the paint.

[Sean Fennessy]

And the eye black near the end of the film. Like you say, he's so magical and musical with his, his dance movements and the way that he kind of turns himself over to a character. It just makes a movie like this so much better when you have someone who is so free.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And then it the. The long term thinking to know that when Jack o' Connell and Ralph Fiennes finally get a big scene together where they're going to be like essentially doing a piece of theater with a gorgeous backdrop of. Of Northern England or whatever, you know. I think so, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

But these two guys are just going to be chewing scenery for five, six, seven minutes, talking about their lives, how they've arrived at this point where they believe one thing or another and where they kind of find themselves in this like struggle where it's like you're we're going to have to make some sort of arrangement or I'm going to kill you. But the contrast of their performances, you know, o' Connell initially doing grand gestures and his blond locks and he's like I'm Jimmy, I'm the seven. And then he's like continually comes down to the point where it's just like two guys talking on stools.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, yeah. Cause Kelson has disarmed him.

[Mona Fastvold]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's disarmed him by asking him questions, by making him feel safe, by not posing a threat. Like this is also someone who's lived in fear of death. Living among the infected for 28 years. He's figured out ways to stay calm in the face of all this danger. Two really exciting actors. O' Connell is in the middle of quite a run. You know, I think you both were fairly early on Rogue Heroes.

[Amanda Davins]

I was because of him.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. I mean I've loved him since startup.

[Sean Fennessy]

Startup in 71 and all the great films that he's made in his early stretch. But now if you go to 2022, when rogue heroes started and underrated in Ferrari, I think the best part of Back to Black by far, Sinners last year as Remick and now these two films.

[Chris Ryan]

He's also fantastic in the north water, which is 21, which is Andrew Hayes miniseries that he made. It's like Jack o' Connell and Colin Farrell.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, I'll tell you who he reminded me of in this movie is Gary Oldman. He's giving a Gary Oldman performance. It is. It feels like a little bit of his. Dracula. A little bit of his. The Professional. Exactly. That kind of like greasy, slick, malevolent figure. Yeah. That there's something like you really don't want to cross him because things will go very, very bad. And he's just magnificent in this movie. And he's a disgusting character. I mean, he is vile. The things that he does and the way that he takes advantage of children and women and just innocence throughout the film. But you kind of can't take your eyes off of him.

[Chris Ryan]

I was blown away by him and I usually am. Like, I'm a huge fan of his, but this is a really easy part to make. Completely over the top and ridiculous. Um, it's not that much different than, like, John Malkovich and Con Air or name any, like, overqualified actor in a. In like a peak villainy part. But he finds pathos in this guy. You know what I mean? And you really do. In the same way that Kelson is saying that he can't really remember a time before the infection, you start to get an idea of why Jimmy would be the way he is. If he's 8 years old and the first thing that he kind of remembers is his father leading a horde of infected.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

To storm a church and kill the vicar.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

An entire village.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

If that shapes your worldview.

[Mona Fastvold]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

He's a con man, but I think he also believes the con.

[Sean Fennessy]

Were you out on Teletubbies?

[Amanda Davins]

I mean, I remember I was babysitting when they were on, so I consumed.

[Chris Ryan]

Them as like, was that dance that Jemima?

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, it was very good. I mean, it is. That's a very funny, very specific and accurate inclusion that's over several films now. Because aren't the little kids watching Teletubbies when there's like that horrible raid in and they were just very upset. Yeah, spot on. And they are really weird and in their own way, a sign of Jack.

[Chris Ryan]

O' Connell being like. Yeah, it's. They're robots that have TVs.

[Amanda Davins]

On their tummies and so on. And so it was really. Yeah, it's funny.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. This. This movie is, like, kind of a miracle. I wasn't sure that any of this stuff was going to work, these. These last two films. And I'm really kind of blown away by how good they are. And now. You know, this is a deep spoiler, but by the time we get to the end of this film, a long rumored thing that some thought would happen in the last film does actually come to pass in this movie, which is that Cillian Murphy's character returns. And he returns and we see that he is raising his daughter. I guess that's his daughter he had with Naomi Harris.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

And he's teaching her about history.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And she's studying World War II.

[Mona Fastvold]

Yes.

[Amanda Davins]

And the. The inter. Between World War I and World War.

[Chris Ryan]

Why the Allies were more conciliatory and helpful in the post World War II era rather than the post World War I era. Which thematically, I think is Garland sort of saying, like, this will never work if every swing of the pendulum is about taking. Punishing down the opposite side.

[Amanda Davins]

Yes, yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

The more vindictive the punishment, which is.

[Chris Ryan]

If you need like, an example of, like. I mean, I'm sure there are people who thought that was stupid, but, like, I think that that's an example of why Alex Garland is really, really good is that you can have a character sort of off half off screen for some of the scene discussing Churchill and how that.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, he does. If those forget history are doomed to repeat it. Like from the kitchen.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. Like while he's making toast. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That was a gasp and applaud moment in our screening, as was probably the crescendo of the movie, which I guess. I don't know. If you want to talk about that.

[Sean Fennessy]

We should. I mean, it's an amazing feat of filmmaking, which is that so finds this character who has been set up to be Satan by Jack o' Connell's character.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, he's standing in.

[Sean Fennessy]

Standing in for Satan.

[Chris Ryan]

He's like Jack OConnell, the Dark Lord. I need you to pretend to be the devil so that my minions continue to believe that I am in contact with the devil.

[Sean Fennessy]

And if you don't do that, I will kill you effectively. And so we already know Dr. Kelston's a bit of a showman. And he conjures up this performance as the Dark Lord set to Iron Maiden's.

[Chris Ryan]

Number of the beast gives blows cocaine into the Jimmy's face.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is it cocaine? Do we know that?

[Chris Ryan]

I think it was supposed to be him. He was mixing up coke or some sort of speed.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. And gives this kind of ravishing visual performance. And like I said, DaCosta and Bob had very free with the camera. And what kind of. It turns into a music video. And a very exciting and amusing music video seen through the eyes of the. The Jimmies who were baffled as to what they're watching.

[Chris Ryan]

And then moshing.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. And concludes with this epic kind of fire dance that he does with these shoulder weights that are knocking the sparks loose from the fire inside. It's an amazing set piece. I guess there is also a crucifixion that happens in the aftermath of that. It is a really dramatic and violent and fascinating conclusion. We have also seen that Samson has sort of become humanized and become a potential victim once again. Of the infected, even though he remains clearly the infected.

[Amanda Davins]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

But he can his access to SSRIs, because it was like he got one.

[Amanda Davins]

Listen, I saw the puppies. They were there. That wasn't a mistake.

[Chris Ryan]

So can he piece it together?

[Amanda Davins]

And you know, you also see Kelson, like doing some, you know, longhand math and consulting some books in a way that suggests he's trying to, in the event of my. Make morphine again.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Yes. I hope Samson's gonna be okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he says he's like. I think that they're.

[Amanda Davins]

He's still absolutely wallops that entire train car of people.

[Sean Fennessy]

He does.

[Chris Ryan]

He does.

[Amanda Davins]

Infected.

[Chris Ryan]

He goes back to the place where both. I believe his child has been born. His. His zombie human hybrid child from the previous film. And also turns out the place where it looks like he was when the infection started. When the outbreak started. Just saying that people applauded in our screening for that fire dance. And then there was a gasp and a light round of applause for Killian Murphy. I only mention that just because I think this might be the most creatively invigorating running franchise in movies right now. And even the way that they construct the. The way that they tell a complete story and then do basically a two minute coda at the end of both of these past presentations.

[Sean Fennessy]

Two in a row now.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is like kind of the way this shit's off should work. It's like, there is another world out there. There is another story we're gonna tell. It's not going to affect. We didn't stop telling our movie 35 minutes ago in order to set up some new problem. You know what I mean? I think it's pretty. It's pretty awesome.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think part of my comfort with that is the idea that this. There's not going to be ten more of these. That this was pitched as a trilogy, sold as a trilogy.

[Amanda Davins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

Garland wrote three scripts. That makes me more at ease with the structure of the story. I generally am a little bit dubious of. Here's a two minute coda. Come back for the next one. It has to be done really well.

[Amanda Davins]

When we walked out of 28 years later.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

We were like, listen, we really like Jack o' Connell and we'll go wherever he leads. But we were. We were like, are we sure?

[Chris Ryan]

It was confusing. Yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

And like, what's going on here? And let's talk about the rest of the movie. And this, you know, confirms both that coda and the strategy.

[Chris Ryan]

There were people who were like, I cannot. Yeah, I cannot like endorse this film full as fully as I would like to because of the last scene. I also think, like, asking global, but especially American audiences to know who Jimmy Savile is and know, like, where the influences are coming from on this was a lot. I think by the time this movie comes out, people either write about it or it's not really that necessary in this film. Because I think they come up with, like, their own kind of mythology and iconography.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's why I think it works is if you understand the reference and you get the idea of sort of like a child predator and someone who appears to be friendly. But. Yeah, how's that great coda with that, like, closing note on. How's that as well? But if you don't get it, it still works. He still seems like a demon.

[Amanda Davins]

Yes, it's really creepy.

[Chris Ryan]

This coda is, I think, tonally more in line with the rest of the film.

[Sean Fennessy]

It actually, I mean, it doesn't just feel like a callback because Cillian Murphy is in it, but even the way that it's staged, that sort of like long lens final shot, it's. It felt like the first film. It felt like 28 days.

[Chris Ryan]

And it brings back the theme, the sort of score from the first film.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Which I would imagine that there will be an attempt to kind of like reckon with and reexamine the first movie in this final installation.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I imagine they go back to London.

[Sean Fennessy]

Perhaps it would be exciting as a cure possible.

[Chris Ryan]

There's. Look, I mean, the way to make this more practically and to make this more cheaply and thus make it more of a suitable for Sony, is to keep it out in the hills and keep it rural.

[Amanda Davins]

It is very beautiful.

[Chris Ryan]

Five or six people running around in circles. But, you know, I mean, the cool thing about what this movie does is that, you know, it takes two major chess pieces off the board. So it's like, what's at stake? What are we. What is the end goal of this? Is it just about Spike becoming a man and becoming the kind of man that, like, you know, you would hope he would become? Or is it about. We actually have Dr. Kelson's secret recipe.

[Sean Fennessy]

To turn everyone back to be determined. Would you say more of like a Hungry like the Wolf Rio Girls on Film, Duran Duran fan or more of like an ordinary world, like early 90s fan?

[Amanda Davins]

I mean, definitely. Rio Girls on Film. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, just. But you were getting into Ordinary World. I noticed, you know, when that. When that acoustic guitar hits.

[Amanda Davins]

Listen, I am. I appreciate. I appreciate the entire oeuvre was interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

To get a kid a needle drop.

[Sean Fennessy]

Which didn't love it.

[Chris Ryan]

Right up against. When the infection is 02 or 01 or whatever, you know, so it's just right up, right up against.

[Sean Fennessy]

He just. He. So he kind of stopped getting into new music. Kelson roughly like 93, but he got brought back home around for Radiohead.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Radiohead was still of interest.

[Chris Ryan]

Pretty common.

[Sean Fennessy]

I. That song has now appeared in three films in the last five years.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, well, it's just another. It's catching up with us. We are in charge of everything now. When the references I just.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like, we could have just done the National Anthem. That would have been another way to.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

[Sean Fennessy]

Everything in its right place is like, we're good, we're good. Take a break. Take a break.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm just really. I was blown away by this. And I just can't believe that this is what's happening with this series of films.

[Sean Fennessy]

Let's take it. Let's do an ad hoc. Where he finds hall of Fame.

[Amanda Davins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Absolutely. I don't know if there's a logical time to do this. I don't know if this would normally be an entire episode. I started trying to rough it out in my head last night, and I was like, this guy's got 25 essential performances. So I want your feedback, I want your thoughts.

[Chris Ryan]

I got down to 10, but I couldn't figure out one of them. Which one he should be. But I know that some are missing. But I got down to 10.

[Sean Fennessy]

Can we do Stone Cold Locks to start? Yeah. Schindler's List.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Amanda Davins]

Have to.

[Sean Fennessy]

The English Patient.

[Mona Fastvold]

Yep.

[Amanda Davins]

Have to.

[Sean Fennessy]

The Grand Budapest Hotel.

[Amanda Davins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think you have to do one of the Harry Potter films.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know which one.

[Amanda Davins]

I don't.

[Sean Fennessy]

Voldemort.

[Amanda Davins]

I don't know which one either.

[Chris Ryan]

Is there, like a Voldemort flashback one? Is there one where he's, like, doing a bunch of different stuff?

[Sean Fennessy]

No, I mean, it's.

[Amanda Davins]

But it's played by another actor because his face isn't. As best I can tell.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, I would say probably just Deathly Hallows 2, since it's the final film and it features, like, the final Confrontation. Yep. So that's four.

[Amanda Davins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think there are any more Stone Cold Locks?

[Chris Ryan]

Conclave.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought about it. He elevates that movie in a big way. That's another example of something that could have seemed.

[Chris Ryan]

So here's the cool thing about it.

[Amanda Davins]

I mean, there's One more cheeky. There's one more within the world of the big picture, which is a bigger splash.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amanda Davins]

I mean, it just like, if we.

[Sean Fennessy]

Were doing it, we would do this. We are doing it.

[Amanda Davins]

This is our podcast.

[Sean Fennessy]

So that's six. We'll say conclave, and we'll say a bigger splash.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I will throw out a couple. So here's one of the things about him is that about five or six years into his career, he just develops this ability to go from he can play the fifth on the call sheet to the first on the call sheet. And he makes as big of an impact either way.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

So in. In Bruges or inhale Caesar, he is able to make a crater. And the same, honestly, in. I think he has, like, two minutes of screen time in the Hurt Locker, and he's awesome in it.

[Sean Fennessy]

So what do we do about that? That's part of why I found this to be challenging because, like, he's not essential to the Craig Bond films. But I love when he shows up.

[Amanda Davins]

He's great.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, he's. He. He lifts those movies when he pops up, and he's a nice counterpoint to Craig.

[Chris Ryan]

So you have. You have Schindler's English Patient Patient, Harry Potter. Graham Budapest is for Conclave. Let's say, is five. Would you put 28 years later and.

[Amanda Davins]

Bigger splash is six.

[Chris Ryan]

Six is bigger splash. Let's say bone temple is seven.

[Amanda Davins]

Great.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm with that.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

This is a great performance, I think, personally, like, my favorite underrated performance by him. Two of them. One is Strange Days.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was gonna. I would have nominated Strange.

[Chris Ryan]

It has a little bit of a different look than probably you're used to seeing from him. And the other one is Constant Gardner.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Which is the Jolla Carrie adaptation with Rachel Weisz, which I think he's phenomenal in.

[Sean Fennessy]

So I am down with that. I think 10 would then have to be Quiz Show.

[Amanda Davins]

I thought you. Yeah, Quiz show has to be in there.

[Sean Fennessy]

So then that's like. That's 10 right there. But that does not account for any of those super cameos that he's so good.

[Chris Ryan]

So we then basically.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, there's no Mallory. No Em.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

There's no Hail Caesar.

[Chris Ryan]

There's no Burt Locker Imbrusch.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's also brilliant as Francis Dolarhyde in Red Dragon, which is a flawed movie, but he's very good in that movie. No shots at Tom Noonan.

[Chris Ryan]

It's hard for me.

[Amanda Davins]

I mean, I didn't even put up, like, the end of the Affair or whatever. But that was a good movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

You know.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, that's a really good film. And he's really good in that.

[Amanda Davins]

That movie's a little Made in Manhattan. Is not good. He's not bad in it, but that's. It's. I don't appreciate it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did not realize he played Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights.

[Amanda Davins]

I know. And someone else seen this with Juliette Binoche.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I gotta watch this.

[Amanda Davins]

And then. Wait, hold on. Is he in the Return as well? Is that okay? So do you know what the Return is?

[Sean Fennessy]

I do. I actually never saw it.

[Amanda Davins]

I didn't either, but a friend of mine just texted. This is retelling of the Odyssey, so we're gonna have to see that.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yep. What about the Prince of Egypt?

[Amanda Davins]

Did you see the Coral plays Ramses?

[Sean Fennessy]

Did I see the what?

[Amanda Davins]

The Coral.

[Chris Ryan]

The Coral.

[Amanda Davins]

I think it's Coral. There's no e. So World War II singing group, right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. I haven't seen that yet.

[Chris Ryan]

It was heavily advertised in London while I was there.

[Amanda Davins]

I mean, I definitely am gonna do like the. If I ever day to myself again. Like Nuremberg Coral back to back, you know, that we didn't say.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like a really. Definitely go up with 15 other things you could do with a day to yourself.

[Amanda Davins]

Get your ears next time I get the flu, you know. Okay, the. The menu.

[Sean Fennessy]

We didn't mention a huge hit. I know a movie that also does not work without him. I like that movie. It's got some heavy detractors, but I'm a fan, so.

[Amanda Davins]

Remember the dig when he was an archaeologist with Kerry Mollie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Was that a Netflix film?

[Amanda Davins]

It was. I mean, it was 2021 also, so I needed that to be the Englishman.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is there anything in the deep British lore from the 80s that we're not thinking of? I mean, he's in Peter Greenaway's the Baby of Macon. I was thinking about that.

[Chris Ryan]

I said that. I remember that.

[Sean Fennessy]

Schindler's List was really a major breakthrough for him. I don't know about this. Wuthering Heights. I would like to see this.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, it's not screen, but I just thought I would mention film debut. You can find a lot of his. There's several of his works. His theater works are online in various places. Especially his collaborations with David Hare.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, what about Cronenberg's Spider, I think is on the list.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

The first film I ever reviewed for the Ithacan College. Nice. The failed Avengers relaunch opposite Uma Thurman. Not the Avengers comic book. Characters, the British TV spy series.

[Chris Ryan]

I remember that. And then what was the Kingsman that he was in?

[Sean Fennessy]

Was he in the King's Man?

[Chris Ryan]

The King's man, yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

From 2021.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that the prequel one?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Okay.

[Mona Fastvold]

Okay.

[Amanda Davins]

What's he doing in that?

[Chris Ryan]

He invents the Kingsman.

[Amanda Davins]

Oh, yeah. I think that makes sense, right?

[Chris Ryan]

He's like the first Suit Shop.

[Sean Fennessy]

He also directed an adaptation of Coriolanus. I remember it being pretty good. Really? A war movie. Anything else? We did our 10 pretty easily.

[Chris Ryan]

The 10 was pretty easy. And we have like 5 to 7 also. Check this out.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Any other thoughts?

[Chris Ryan]

Do you think we'll get 28 years later, the last year or whatever this time next year, next summer? No, I think it's gonna be a little while.

[Sean Fennessy]

Danny Boyle has a movie coming out at the end of this year, so if Danny Boyle is making it, I don't believe production has begun. Depends on probably how this movie does too. I think it's tracking for less, like.

[Chris Ryan]

20 years later, over four days. Yeah, word of mouth will be good, but I do think that there will be also the. That was fucking brutal. Word of mouth as well coming out.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. It's extremely violent and hard to take at times.

[Chris Ryan]

I come out of this with just like. I've needed to cast the season tickets now.

[Sean Fennessy]

Interesting.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Big sign on.

[Chris Ryan]

Just. I think I get what she go.

[Sean Fennessy]

You should watch Hedda. You should see what you think of it.

[Chris Ryan]

No, but I got us just so thrilled with what she did with this.

[Sean Fennessy]

She did. As I said before we began recording, this story has good bones. It has really good bones.

[Amanda Davins]

There we go.

[Sean Fennessy]

In a way, I almost don't want Boyle to go back. I want to see another filmmaker's point of view because I think it could withstand another reimagining, another visual.

[Amanda Davins]

But if you're gonna do Cillian Murphy. Yeah, you got it.

[Chris Ryan]

And if there's gonna be some sort of inclusion to the story, which. I don't know. I mean, I imagine if he wrote it as a trilogy. Although knowing Alex Garland, maybe he's like, there's no fucking end. This is the end. Like, we are all infected, you know?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that would be appropriate. Cr. Thank you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, my pleasure.

[Sean Fennessy]

We're gonna talk a little bit about Ann Lee, but you wouldn't watch a film starring a woman, so we're gonna ask you to move on.

[Chris Ryan]

And now my interview with Mona Faspel.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, we're back. Before I talk to Mona Festival, I thought we should talk about the Testament of an Lee a little bit. So you know. This film is co written with Mona and Brady Courbet, just like the Brutalist. And it stars Amanda Seyfried Thomas and mackenzie Lewis, Pullman, Stacy Martin, Tim Blake Nelson Christopher Abbott. It is a story I'd not heard anything about. I'd never heard of Ann lee. It spans 18th century England and America. This visionary spiritual leader, Ann Lee comes along, rises from obscurity. She forges this radical movement called the Shakers, inspired by the Quaker movement. She suffers significant personal tragedy and in the wake of that develops this concept of celibacy colliding with a kind of convulsive musical reckoning with God. And the film portrays her struggles and also her brilliance and her radiance. And features like a wildly transformative performance by Amanda Seyfried. I know you first saw it out of Venice.

[Amanda Davins]

I did. And so I really.

[Sean Fennessy]

You liked it then.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, I really liked it. And I knew nothing about it besides what was printed in the programs. And I also knew nothing about the Shakers. And I didn't even know, as it's explained fairly early in the film, that they are called Shakers. Or at least in the context of film, they're called Shakers because they were shaking Quakers. So I didn't even know to anticipate the movement and the choreography and certainly the music that was. That is a major part of this because in addition to it being an examination of the founding of a religious spiritual movement and also Fast Fold and Courbet's sequel or next installment of the cult of personality and self belief and hatred in the wake of personal tragedy, it is also like a musical and it has end with a lot of dancing as well, and not your traditional, like theater, like jazz hands. Really, really memorable movement. And that is actually what stood out to me the most. I loved it. I loved the choreography and the way that it incorporates the traditional Shaker music and. And the very weird dancing and literalizes that shaking Quaker in a. It surprised me. You just. I hadn't seen anything like it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's a cool act of not just synthesis, but synchronization. Like the choreography and the music, which is written with Daniel Blumberg, fits the filmmaking style. The movie, the camera moves and the story moves the way that the Shakers move. And particularly during these ecstatic dance sequences, you know, singing sequences, you can kind of feel how you could get wrapped up in this movement, which on its face is quite severe and quite strange. A very alien, I think, to a 21st century sensibility. But there's something about the kind of emotional hysteria of this movie that is very transfixing and fastful. Does not wink. She never is like, isn't this funny or weird? It's just a portrait. Which I think is a really, really good choice. And I feel like in these times whenever you're trying to tell a story about a person like this, it's very. And you know, the brutalist got kind of held to task for this as well. But it's something that I liked about that movie also, which is that this is a person who transformed their lives and attempted to heal a deep wound by focusing on construction and imagination and community like those things can be, can help heal. And I appreciate it. The movie is a little ridiculous. Like you will, as you're watching it, you'll be like, this is so strange.

[Amanda Davins]

And the sequences and when everyone like in the back corner of the frame and the. The way that camera is like up people's noses as they're as. As they're having these ecstatic. It is there. There is something uncomfortable about it that purposefully. Right. That it is supposed to. To. To communicate how desperate and consuming the. The nature of this expression was. People trying to work themselves out of something and into something else. I saw more walkouts for this in Venice than any other film. I mean the Italians were just like, absolutely not.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I think there's also a significant amount of very raw portrayals of childbirth and then infant death in the movie. That is very severe, very severe. And I think will alienate people.

[Amanda Davins]

And see also Hamnet. You know, it's true.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, it's a running theme in the films of 2025. But I think also, you know, that's obviously a kind of inspiration point for Ann Lee's thinking about how she sees the world. She's also been subject to physical abuse by her family and by her partner. She has this very tenuous relationship to sex. And that tenuous relationship leads to some of this thinking about celibacy and then the way in which she's rejected by her partner in life because of that. I mean these are really thorny ideas and they seem old fashioned or alien, but the movie doesn't do that. Kind of like cheap. This is her trauma.

[Amanda Davins]

Right. And now she doesn't heal.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, exactly.

[Amanda Davins]

I mean we were talking about both the Brutalists and this movie as a response to personal trauma and like really honestly to rape in both cases. And that these people are trying to find some sort of healing is very different than finding.

[Sean Fennessy]

Exactly, exactly.

[Amanda Davins]

And they're trying to work things out. But I wouldn't say that either film has a happy ending, at least my interpretation.

[Sean Fennessy]

I will say, though, without spoiling it, I found that the way that Anne Lee is portrayed at the end of the film is really interesting and mature and complicated and kind of had me thinking about how I want my life to end and sort of like what you want to. How you want to feel about yourself and what you've done and how you see the world when your time has come. God tier work from Amanda Seyfried.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah, I think just one of the greats.

[Sean Fennessy]

Truly an amazing performer. This movie is asking so much of her. I could not think of another movie that was asking so much of a performer. Because she has to have a clear sense of this spiritual ideology. She has to represent a fearless leader, an ecstatic devotion in this conceit. She has to sing, she has to dance, she has to lead in singing and dancing. She's not just participating, but she is at the center of the frame. Through all these experiences, plus the prosthetics involved in those childbirth sequences, the amount of violence that this character endures, the crazy set pieces, the epic ship journey that her character takes.

[Amanda Davins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's an epic film.

[Amanda Davins]

And as you said, like as fastful doesn't wink. And she does not either. And we have seen that Amanda Seyfried can wink when she needs to. The housemaid. And that is what the housemaid is for. And she's perfect in it. But there is a sincerity to what she does in all of this. That's pretty amazing.

[Chris Ryan]

This episode is brought to you by Dead Man's Wire, the new film from Rokay Entertainment. Dead Man's Wire is the incredible true story of the 1977 kidnapping that turned an aspiring entrepreneur into an outlaw folk hero. Directed by legendary filmmaker Gus Van Sant, Dead Man's Wire stars Bill Skarsgrd, Dacre Montgomery, Carrie Elwes and Myhalla with Coleman to Mingle and Al Pacino. Now playing in select theaters everywhere. January 16th.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a very unusual film. I could not really think of too many other movies.

[Amanda Davins]

Which is cool.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is cool. I think that's part of the reason why. And I think that your general audience is gonna be made a little uncomfortable by this movie or bored in some ways. And I don't know that it has necessarily the same that uplift in the first half of the brutalist. You know, that sort of like.

[Amanda Davins]

Right, there's an open.

[Sean Fennessy]

Very showy. Yes, exactly. That triumphal quality. This movie is Different. I would say that it ends in a similar way to the way that the previous the Brutalist begins. But the movie does feel like a little bit of splitting the atom between Vox Lux and the Brutalist to me in terms of. Here's how music and performance collides with artistry, pain, spirituality, history. It's a very cool project they have going on. I like what they're up to.

[Amanda Davins]

I am really into it. I think this. To me, I clicked with this film the most of the three. And to anyone who has listened to what we're talking about and is like, no, thanks. I was skeptical walking in. It was not my most anticipated of the Venice Film Festival and it really did win me over.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think Mona is also an amazing advocate for the movie. So I highly recommend people listen to the conversation with her. It's not even really. It's not the kind of movie that can be spoiled. There's a Wikipedia page that details Ann Lee's life. It is a speculative portrait. As she points out, she is no longer alive.

[Amanda Davins]

I just want to let everyone know. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But I do think that first of all, the music is easy to return to. I've started listening to it on Spotify, maybe new writing music for me. Daniel Blumberg, who made that bom bop bom bom moment in the Brutalist, also makes the music here. I can't say I'm swayed to explore the Shakers ideology any further. It's not something that we've been talking about this.

[Amanda Davins]

I'm good on spirituality. I got my own.

[Sean Fennessy]

What could I discover?

[Amanda Davins]

What could I. Pursuers also made furniture, right? They're making. Yeah, the furniture is lovely.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think that's also something Amanda Seyfried and Lewis Pullman learned to do is they learned to make furniture, which is really cool. Downright Daniel Day Lewis esque.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah. And I like the furniture, but maybe I'll just admire that from afar.

[Sean Fennessy]

18Th century would have been a tough time to live.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah. Think about how bad it smelled. You ever think about that? I think about that all the time.

[Sean Fennessy]

But you wouldn't know any different because there's no deodorant.

[Amanda Davins]

That's true. But it's not just like bodily smell, you know, like the sewage, like food waste, all of these sorts of things.

[Sean Fennessy]

You wouldn't know any different.

[Amanda Davins]

I spend a lot of time thinking about how dehydrated I would be and how terrible everything would smell.

[Sean Fennessy]

But you would have God inside you. Unlike now. And would you live in a godless world?

[Amanda Davins]

I find God all around Me every day.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you wall shopping in the FR. Furniture. Okay, well, that's an advocacy for the movie. This is more advocacy for Mona Fast Fold. Let's go to my conversation with her right now. Mona Fastball here for the first time. Thank you for being here. I'm very excited to talk to you about this movie. There are some superficial similarities between the Brutalist and the Testament of An Lee. So I was hoping you could walk me through the development, the discovery of Ann Lee's life for you and kind of when this movie really first started.

[Mona Fastvold]

Well, so we wrote it before we shot the Brutalist. But, yes, I didn't really think about the similarities until I was in the edit. While I was editing the Testament of Ann Lee, I was also promoting and putting out the Brutalist with Brady and just talking about the Brutalist every day. While when you were in that really, that space, when you're editing and you're just analyzing the work that you've done, all of a sudden we started seeing all of these similarities and seeing sort of how the pictures both spoke to one another. It's like they're both immigrating to America. They're both trying to do something impossible, perhaps unwanted. Avant garde in many ways, philosophically, artistically, both of these characters, but they're very different characters. So it was an interesting kind of. All of a sudden, it was interesting looking at it as a companion piece. But we didn't think about that at all when we started. When we were writing it, we had written the Brutalist, and I was fascinated by the Shakers. I came across it when I was doing research on the World to Come, which takes place in 1856. And I was actually looking for a hymn to use in the film. And I was looking at something that would date further back than 1856. Something that could have been passed down to them from their mothers or something like that. So I started just looking at hymns from that. That also takes place in Massachusetts and upstate New York. So I was looking at that area and I was reading about the hymns and history of them. And I came across this one specific song that I really fell in love with called Pretty Mother's Home that's in the film as well, that song by this beautiful actor and singer, Lark White. And Josephine Foster as well, sings on that. And I started reading about it and that led me to the Shakers and to Mother Ann Lee. And I thought it was just a fascinating story, fascinating historical figure. She kept surprising me as I was learning more about her. It was a lot of detective work that went into learning about her because there's not that much that has been written about her. And the, you know, there's one and the word, which is a great biography, but that one, that's the only one that was available. Everything else was more or less out of print. And you had to sort of, yeah, go down, go digging. But as I learned more about her, I was really. I was just fascinated. I was surprised by how radical she was, her ideas for, you know, justice, equality, and how sort of what a feminist she was. And then there's sort of this, like, this aspect of the religion that. That is that they worship through ecstatic song and dance, which I thought was so cinematic and interesting. It's like a. It's a. It's a forced musical. Like it has to be a musical because that's how they live their life. It's that they sort of almost live their life like a musical early on. So all those aspects I just felt were really just made for a. An interesting project to dedicate years and years of my life to.

[Sean Fennessy]

I want to hear about those years I saw you describe it as a speculative retelling of your life, which I think is a really interesting phrase. And whenever there's a biopic, for lack of a better word, there is this line between truth of a person's life and what makes a kind of coherent narrative film. So how did you think about that? Especially since there's maybe not as much material as you would have liked to. You even just used as source when you were writing the film.

[Mona Fastvold]

Well, there's definitely blanks that has to be filled in. There's definitely things that you have to imagine. But it's all, you know, it's all based on a lot of research. There is a lot of information, but speculative. Yes, because what's written down as truths are. It's not written down by Ann Lee herself because she was illiterate. It is written down by her witnesses, much like the Bible. So is it. Did it really happen this way or did it happen another way? It's their interpretation of these events, and then again, it's ours interpretation of them. And so, you know, I sat down, I did as much research as I could, and I felt like the story and the structure of the story was very much there. And then when we sat down to write it with Brady, we really. For us, it was really okay. Now you write from intuition because now this becomes a dialogue between us and this material and us and this historical figure. Then that sort of. That's where the film lives for me in that conversation between the filmmaker and the historical figure or the historical events that you're portraying. So therefore, you know, it's not a straight biopic. I'm not trying to say, oh, this is exactly what happened, but, but it's more. This is my conversation with what happened.

[Sean Fennessy]

I asked Brady a somewhat similar question around the Brutalist, which was that I felt like that film and this film, the drive and ambition and the sort of like the commitment, devotion to the belief and the process of what those two characters are doing, it does map kind of neatly onto the life of an independent filmmaker. And like, do you see a connection, like a close personal connection between what you do and your work and what Ann Lee stood for, how she did it, how she pursued it. Like, is there a match there?

[Mona Fastvold]

Yeah, I think that, you know, I think that these, both of these stories, yes, they, they, it is for us. My personal sort of connection to the story is of course, you know, tied to. What is it that drives you? What is this faith that drives you to try and create impossible, you know, things like it feels impossible to make these movements movies down to the very end in many ways, even putting them out into the world and like finding a great distributor even when you've made it like, you know, it's so hard, it's so challenging and cons. You have so many no's and you have so many shut doors over and over and over again. But then, you know, with this project and with the Brutalist, we have a tight knit group of people that we're working so closely with and that just stands, you know, together with us and we, you know, and we'll just, just do anything it takes to, to make it happen. So yes, there's like, there's definitely parallels in that. I'm sure there's that, you know, that part that's that journey of that struggle is something, you know, I guess we keep returning to. But I think also that defiance is appealing to me because there's a part of me that I guess when nobody wants it, I still will not stop making the movie. I won't say, okay, well, I guess no one, no one wants to finance this, my Shaker musical. I don't know why, but why do.

[Sean Fennessy]

You think that is? Why do you feel like you. When someone says no, that almost empowers you more to keep going?

[Mona Fastvold]

Because I believe in the story so much. So, so much. I do. If not, I wouldn't be making it. If not, I wouldn't dedicate years of my life to it. And I don't know why I believe in it, but I do. I mean, I just do. It's a bit of a. And that's, I guess, the kind of faith aspect. I'm not religious. I wasn't raised in a religious household, but I. I am interested in faith. And I do think, like, what is. What is it that drives you to be so uncomfortable all the time as well? You know, it's. It's hard. It's hard, you know, and. And you're just. You're pushing yourself to the very limit to make something that you believe in that the world is also telling you. Maybe. No, thanks. We're good. We're good on this. And then, of course, you know, like. I mean, the wonderful thing is that I think that if you do make something that's really and very precise and specific, then there usually is an appetite for it because of the specificity of it. I think, at least that's what I seek out. Something that's just like one vision, really.

[Sean Fennessy]

Clear for a sight that is definitely how I felt watching it. And I do feel like I couldn't. I'm fond of comparing movies to other movies. That's something that cinephiles do nonstop all the time. But there's not a lot of strong comparisons that can be made because of the structure, because of the approach that you take in telling the story. That sort of forced musical that you described, I love that phrase. But one thing I wanted to ask you about is that the sequence of events of her life at times are dark and also absurd. And the idea of a forced musical is kind of absurd on its face. But the tone of the film is very straight. You do not lean into irony. There's no wink in the film whatsoever. There are some humorous moments, but not much. And holding that tone of seriousness, like in our society now, can sometimes be considered a negative, but you really make it work despite, or in part because of all of these choices. So, like, I was wondering if you could just talk about the decision on the tone of the film and how you wanted it to go.

[Mona Fastvold]

It was so important to me to stay right in that space. And it was very hard because it's easy to make fun of her. It's easy to debunk the myth of her. That's the easy route. The hard route is to take her seriously and to treat her with respect. It's more. It's more difficult, I think. And it felt more radical, in a way, and it almost felt more radical for me. In a way to also. This is the most. This is the most traditional story structure that we've ever written for me and Brady. It's like a three act, you know, it's linear and all that. So of course there's things in the. But I knew that the filmmaking was going to be. Be radical and I knew that with the movement and the. And the music and the editorial pattern and I knew that that was going to bring that in. So I kind of. I wanted that structure to be a bit more. Yeah, to be a bit more linear, like a cradle to grave story. And also felt like treating her with respect by doing that. I wanted, I wanted to have this, to see this is her life. This is not. It's not just this little part of her life or this little one idea about her. It's, it's. It's. This is her entire life. And it was grand. And here's a grand gesture to celebrate that or to you not even celebrate it, just to even to look at it. But I also think, because I, when I was. When I began to research her and I had moments where I thought, oh, when am I gonna feel. When am I gonna be like, oh, what a charlatan. You know, that kind of idea? Cause you. I think that's the, that's the relationship that I have to. A lot of stories about cult leaders or other religious leaders or even political leaders, like people who are driven by ego or personal gain or who are manipulating and leading from fear. And then through and through reading about Ann Lee, I just discovered that she was always just kind of leading from this place of love. And it was never about her and it was never about her ego. And it was always just about trying to create safe space where people could worship in a different way and where they could worship through creating objects or art, drawings, paintings, music, architecture, you know, like all these things. So it just felt like this very. It was surprising how sort of pure and like, and full of love and caring their beliefs were and how radical they were. And I, I just, I wanted to, I wanted the audience to, to make up their own mind as they went through the story. I couldn't, you know, go full. Couldn't join the Shakerism, but I couldn't go, you know, I couldn't become a preacher with her, but I certainly wanted to keep this sort of create the space where you could just make up your own mind and maybe change her mind throughout and have different thoughts and feelings about her. Like I did when I was researching her.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I was thinking about this revisiting the movie last night was, is this movie a celebration or just a portrait? And you kind of hinted at that in that answer too.

[Mona Fastvold]

Is it a little bit of both, huh? Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully it can be both. I think you can celebrate someone without agreeing with them completely as well. Also, she's a portrait of her time, you know, like arguing for celibacy and dissolving of marriages. At that time, it was her only way to gain autonomy as a woman. Woman. She was the only way to say, okay, I. There is no husbands and wives because husbands and wives are not equal. It's a wife. You're your husband's property. But brothers and sisters are equal. So that's what we're going to be. And that's how we. We are gonna. And the. What is the female figure of authority? A mother. Everyone respects their mother. I will be a mother. I will be a leader as a mother. And so using these sort of different ideas to create autonomy and to sort of. Of find the place where she could be a leader, I think is at that time. I understand it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. It's interesting because she's not messianic, right? She's. She's like a community stirrer, you know, like, there's. There's a difference between, like, the cult leaders that you're talking about too.

[Mona Fastvold]

I think so, too. And I think it's that lack of ego. And I think that is also something that's really connected to motherhood in a way where you're like, I am just here. I'm, like, living for my children. I'm like, I will, like, you know, you know, move mountains to protect and love my children. And it's like that power comes from that, like, intense, overwhelming feeling of love.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm curious about the conception and the actual kind of building out of the execution of the movie. So I know that the scripts are usually pretty detailed in terms of what you're gonna shoot and how you're gonna shoot it, but I don't. In terms of choreography and song and that movement in the editing style that you described, Are you writing through all of that? Are you saying, like, we're going to see in these quick cutting moments this kind of, like, euphoric experience of being inside of this religion or this sect?

[Mona Fastvold]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, for example, Beautiful Treasures is described, you know, as a Syrian, as a movement piece. Your. You're moving through this dance or movement sequence where she's. With all this circular spinning movements. And then you have scenes and moments that intercut with that. With all of these births and losses and the sexuality as well. So that's written out as. So here's nine years of her life that we see through this one piece of movement and song.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do the songs and choreography exist before your writing the script?

[Mona Fastvold]

No, I wrote this. Brady and I wrote the script first and then I started working with Daniel right away and Celia shortly thereafter. Daniel first, because we would give Celia music and demos to work with as well. So Daniel Blumberg and I would. We start. Started talking. The first thing we dove into was the very first, first song the Woman Clothed by the sun, which was like our first true exploration of what this, what the music and the score and the songs could be be like. And that's, that's an original piece that's based on Shaker on Shake Shaker text. And, and that was the first thing we were talking about was like we wanted, we had. We wanted to use bells as the only instrument to begin with and then breathe, breath work and, and percussion as, as part of the movement. So using all of the sounds that you hear when you're like the, the slaps and the hits and the even down to like I'm the finger moving across the table like all of those sounds just really being a big part of the music. And I. It's very important to me and I spoke to Daniel and Steve are a wonderful mixer as well about this, that there's never going to be a separation between the world that we are in and the music is not going to be like a typical musical where the diegetic world dies out and the music overtakes. I want the world to be as present, if not even more within the music. So we started diving into different kind of Shaker hymns and into the Shaker music. And we knew that we wanted to use a lot of their traditional hymns and then, and then writing something that was original, a few pieces that were original as well, but not until after we really had understood their musical tradition. And then again the same as you do with research. You try and understand their tradition and then you, you make it. We make it your own. I wanted there to be Daniel's conversation with the Shaker tradition. So I wanted there to be a lot of Daniel in there as well. And the same with Celia as well. It's like I was showing her all of the research. I had very specific images and ideas of things I wanted to do movement wise that was based on Shaker drawings and paintings and some dance annotation as well that they had that have Been found in their archives. But beyond that, I also wanted it to be Celia. Celia's. I wanted Celia's choreography as well, in her language, to be brought in and combine that with the research as well.

[Sean Fennessy]

So I saw the film a second time yesterday with my wife, and I said, what would you like to know about the making of this movie? Because she was kind of like, I've not seen a film like this before. And she said, I have to assume that the person who made it has a background in dance, But I actually didn't know if you did. And then you sat down and you said, did you study as a ballerina?

[Mona Fastvold]

Did you study ballerina? I danced from when I was 4 years old until I was 18, then had a back injury. So I started. Stopped dancing. But I. Yes, I danced.

[Sean Fennessy]

But it's like a film that understands.

[Mona Fastvold]

But movement is so such a big part of my. How I work as a director. It's really. Even though I haven't. I mean, I used to direct music videos when I started out, but for me, the camera movement and the. And the performers movement and the relationship between those two is always choreography. It's always a dance for me, finding that right rhythm, finding that correct rhythm. Like, if you're finding the edit with movement and having movement always be guiding your edit as well, it's just such a big part of it. So for me, this was just like a continued exploration of that and just very, very exciting and fun to work with Ancillia, my choreographer behind. You know, we've known each other for almost 20 years. We have such a long history. So we have a really lovely shorthand. And it was. I would bring. I would have my cinematographer and our camera operator as well would come in, in the dance studio and work with us during rehearsals. Early on, even, we were doing early workshops with Amanda and with our 25 dancers. And so they come in so that I can start working not just with adjusting the choreography, but also adjusting the camera movement and really working then with them and saying, I want you guys to be here with your team and move in this way and then work with Celia and say, now can you adjust 200 people or pull out 25 to make room for us? Because this is where I want the movement to be. So it's really about everyone understanding that language together and practicing.

[Sean Fennessy]

I love how they fit together. It's really. It's gorgeous. And you can see the intentionality with the way that the camera's moving around this big world that you've made. It's really quite impressive. I know you guys have talked about this a lot over the years, but you make these what seem like extraordinary scaled movies at lower budgets independently.

[Mona Fastvold]

Yep.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, I know people are asking you about the ship, but the ship is one of those things where I'm like, I don't, I just don't know how you, where, where did that ship come from? How did you pull this off for a quote unquote smaller film? But even just the period costume and the sense of being out in the world and immigrating to a new country and kind of like transforming the environment that they're in from one segment of the film to another, I don't really understand it. What little I understand about how you finance a film. So like, can you talk a little bit about doing it for this film?

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Mona Fastvold]

I mean, so, you know, it's out of necessity that we, one like, we, I want, we want to tell these kind of, we want to tell an epic grand story and then we do make independent films and the stories are quite radical. So it, you know, it's just, it's just kind of, this is what it is. I would, you know, it's hard to do it, obviously, it's challenging. But that part of me also, I'm excited by the challenge because it does, it just inspire more, inspires creative solutions. So one of the things that I did on this film that's new to this film is that we brought back a traditional matte painter. So I would shoot, for example, the ship when the ship is docked. I found the ship in Sweden, the only tall ship that was available in the world that we luckily were allowed to shoot at. So that's a real ship. And I shot that ship docked in that wide shot. And then I had this wonderful man, Lee, took, he hand painted the surroundings. And then we shoot that on film and we scan that back in. And then we, with our VFX company, we married the two images and then I add a little bit of movement, a tiny bit of vfx, like some birds and some humans and some animals to it and some more movements to the sails. Just. So this is a combination of old and a new technique which I really enjoy. There's a slightly, like, slightly artificial feel to it or very, but it's very painterly. I couldn't afford to do massive CG builds like, you know, like you would do with a period piece now if you have all the money in the world.

[Sean Fennessy]

But it's, what you've done is better.

[Mona Fastvold]

I mean, I, I, for me But I just, for, for this movie, I just really prefer this look for it like this feel to it. It feels organic. It's handmade. Everything in the movie is handmade. It, there's so much craftsmanship in, in the film that is, you know, like down to us finding Shaker blueprints and, and building in their style and Amanda and Lewis and everyone learning woodworking from the interpreters at the Hancock Shaker will it like a wood joinery and making pegs. And it's just, we, we all just became so obsessed with the craftsmanship and so even just bringing back Lee. So Lee took would. He would paint, you know, all of our little set extensions. So we would, you know, and I would work with my cinematographer and my production designer all the way from pre production into end of post production with my cinematographer joining every conversation with Lee and saying, listen, I think we need to adjust the light slightly here so it matches what we shot. Or there's a bow to the lens that we need to recreate at the top corner here. Or you know, or my production designer would say, oh no, this, this window seal right there is a little bit off in the period and we shouldn't, you know, just, I mean we just, we could go on forever. We just kept going until it was like pencils down. We're just obsessing of these details and. But it was really wonderful because we, you know, I wanted the film to feel like you like crawled into a painting. And by bringing back, you know, Lee and his, his way of working, I really felt like it was evoking the past, but then adding in our collaboration with the VFX company. It's you bringing in a little bit of the future and it's an exciting place to be at. I think that's so interesting.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was very randomly on the Universal Studios lot tour recently with my 4 year old and the tour is like just a series of rides now except for one thing. There is this tank that has a giant blue wall. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but they've shot many films in front of this giant blue wall. Kind of representing in a similar fashion using matte style to create different environments. But now it's just like a stop on a tour. It's not something that studios use anymore. They don't use that wall. Some of the best movies ever made use this incredible tool that you built that still stands. So it's very cool that you' it.

[Mona Fastvold]

Was exciting to do that. It's exciting to bring back those techniques. But my thought around doing it on a small budget is also that they, you know, they filmmakers used to do figure it out somehow before we even had these other extraordinary modern tools. So it's. I was like, there must be a way, like, how do they do it? How do they move, you know, cameras around like that? You know, the boat we. I couldn't afford a big enough. Enough crane to shoot the overhead shots on the boat. So we built an arm and we rigged it off the rain tower. It was crazy, but it, but it worked and it was beautiful. And you know, it's, it's, it's a lot. Of course, it's a lot of, like, if you, you know, the boat, there was only a few angles that I could shoot on it for, on there for the exteriors, for it to work. And I had to also have the sail slow up in order to. For it to work as well. So it's just like all of these things have really had to come together. And you just, you know, you're up, you know, it's till four in the morning trying to figure out how to get a bunch of people from Belgium to come and the only people in the world who can rig these sales, you know, things like that, where you're just like. You just have like, you know, terrible heartburn and you want to, you know, just. You're terrified that it's not going to all come together. So I would love to have a little bit more security in my life, but. But when it comes to these things. But also somehow you figure out ways to make it work.

[Sean Fennessy]

And yeah, you get called audacious on the flip side of it. So there's a phrase in the film that popped out to me the second time I saw it that appears a couple of times. And I just wanted to hear you talk about where it came from, which was exteriorized rottenness. And I was like, I've not heard those words together in that way before. And they recur in the film and felt like a very modern condition and not a 17th or 18th century condition.

[Mona Fastvold]

It's a quote from their testament. You know, it's just something that they, that they. An end from the Bible there again. So it is an old term. And so I just thought it was so such a wonderful description of like, you know, just like opening it all up and just letting it all out. And, and it's just such a. Yeah, it's wonderful, but I can't take credit for it. It's from their testament.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is very powerful, very resonant. I do want to hear a little bit about the collaboration with Amanda. I know you guys have known each other for a long time. You've worked together previously. This seems like a hard job being Anne Lee. This seemed like a very hard, like a challenging performance for a variety of reasons. Like, there's huge emotional swings in terms of what she has to portray. I read a bit about some of the prosthetics that you guys talked about during the birthing sequences, which seem pretty extreme, obviously. Choreography, performance, singing, woodworking. It's a full plate of work. It sounds like you were pretty direct about what would be expected of her when you guys were talking about doing it. But I'd like to hear you just kind of talk about the collaboration and what was challenging, what was easy about doing it together, what she was adept at, what she wasn't as adept at, maybe that she had to learn.

[Mona Fastvold]

I mean, she had to learn everything. I mean, she's a great singer and she's a great mover and she's a great actress. But, you know, this is a difficult accent. So she started immediately. She started a year in advance working on it. She's such a hard worker, Amanda. She's really throw. She gives everything. When she's doing something, she doesn't do something halfway, like, that's just not who she is. And I knew that about her, and I knew that she was going to give me everything because we had. We meet. We had great conversations about this character very early on about this project, and we had a really wonderful experience. Working together and directing her was easy for me. Sometimes you have to spend a lot of time trying to find the key into a performer. I like that. I like trying and finding it. And all of a sudden you're like, okay, something. If it doesn't click right away and you. It's my job to really try and find. What is it? How can I help you best as your first. The first viewer, the first moviegoer here watching you perform. How can I. How can I help you and guide you? But with Amanda, for, you know, it was just a very easy. Immediately we spoke the same language. So when we. Yeah, she. She had to. So she. She. But she. I didn't know that she was going to give me this much time. It was very generous, but she cared so much. She cared as much as me. She connected with this role and she wanted to do. She knew how hard it was going to be, and she was ready to just go full force and start the work. So she started doing accent work a year in advance with Tanner and Marshall, our wonderful accent, accent designer, really, because she built this accent because no one knew how they really spoke back then. So this is based on a lot of research that she did. And then she started working with. With Celia and myself on. On the movement and. And with Daniel and I, we started singing immediately. So it was just a lot of prep work because she. Everything had to come from this place of. Of just honest, truthful movement. Honest, truthful singing. It couldn't be performative. It couldn't be musical theater in the traditional sense. Even though she's amazing at that, that's not what this story, this story, or this character required. So it had to come from. She had to sort of really relearn how, like, retrain, detrain herself from, you know, she sings. She's such a great. She's so, you know, such a great singer, and it's so. She's so skilled. So she had to kind of unlearn that and just start trying to find a place where she's just not listening to herself. And so we started going into the studio and, you know, singing through imagining giving birth or whispering or screaming or laughing or just try and just find ways of really just connecting in a different way to her voice. And the same with the movement as well. Celia, really, her thought was, okay, I'm going to create this choreography. I'm going to give you this piece of movement, but now it's yours. I don't care about it being perfect. I always was saying to silly, I, like, I don't want to see dancing. I just want to see move. We just wanted to see movement. And so now you own this movement. And it doesn't have to. It just has to be with a lot of intent. The intent needs to be, like, in your fingertips, in every, like, needs to be. Go all the way out here and all the way down to your toes. But it can be your intent and it can be your story, and it doesn't have to be all about, oh, I'm doing this perfect, you know, beautiful piece of movement. But, you know, it's. It's. She. She gave It. Gave us everything and was willing to do all that work. And then. So then when we came on set, the hard things are, of course, that you're dancing covered in snow and rain and mud or. And every single day there's like, I have 10 goats and a cow and a baby in a scene. You know, it's just. Just all of those things. It just makes it harder. But I think that both Amanda And I thrive in those environments and kind of maximalists. And she gives herself to the moment. And when you've done all your homework, you can. Then you can rest in that moment and just let every. Let the surroundings affect you.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree that this is not musical theatery, but would you ever consider making this a stage musical?

[Mona Fastvold]

Definitely.

[Sean Fennessy]

Because it definitely could play.

[Mona Fastvold]

Yeah. Yes. If there's interest in that. We would.

[Sean Fennessy]

To love.

[Mona Fastvold]

Love to do that. I think I. I think the music and the movement's so exciting and. And I just. I. I could look at. I would love to. I would love. I would love for people to see the movement on a stage because I. I exclude some like pretty fantastic things.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Mona Fastvold]

Just because it. It's not right for the story and it's not right for the character to be. For the camera to be an observer. Most of the time the camera has to be a believer. It has to be intimate. It has to be with Anne and her story and her journey. And there's like some glorious parts of this choreography, like Hunger and Thirst. That's a beautiful movement piece. And it's. I should just like post it on YouTube or something, the rehearsal videos. Because I really love the movement piece. But in the end I just needed that. That sequence needed to be one continuous handheld take. That's just with her. But I still feel the movement so much. I feel the intent of the movement in that scene and it's just so delicious. But I would love for someone to see it on a stage, even just.

[Sean Fennessy]

As a one time only. It could be very special.

[Mona Fastvold]

Maybe we'll do like a special movement night in New York.

[Sean Fennessy]

That would be cool.

[Mona Fastvold]

Celia. Yeah. We're doing a concert in the UK of the school.

[Sean Fennessy]

All the music.

[Mona Fastvold]

All the music. Yeah. With Amanda and Daniel.

[Sean Fennessy]

Incredible. Wow. So she'll sing the hymns.

[Mona Fastvold]

She'll sing all of it. Yeah. Wow.

[Sean Fennessy]

Amazing. Will you continue working in the independent mode? Like this film's got distribution from a major studio. Disney Searchlight is distributing this movie. Crazy, right?

[Mona Fastvold]

How crazy is that? It's very exciting. Thank you. I am. Yes, it's so. We always said that Amanda was like a little bit of a. Like a little bit of like a fucked up Disney princess in this film. Well, that was Brady's joke as we were making.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's kind of her Persona, I think, at large too, you know.

[Mona Fastvold]

It is, it is. And I love that for her. I love that for this character. And then it's, you know, it's with Searchlight, which is so wonderful.

[Sean Fennessy]

But does that now that You've been kind of escorted into, like, a slightly more Hollywood experience here in the aftermath of making the movie. Does that give you any ideas? Could you guys work in the world of Hollywood in this way, in this time, or do you think you'll stick to. We make our movies the way that we want to make them. We get financing the best way that we know how. I'm just curious. Yeah.

[Mona Fastvold]

I will always make the movies the way I want to make them. And if the studio wants to make them with me the way that I want to make them, then that makes sense. Sure. I mean, I don't have any. There's not like a. I have a philosophy about filmmaking, not just about the stories I tell, but about how we build the projects as well. And that is important to me, down to even the economy of it. There's.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is your way is coming out here. The philosophy of filmmaking.

[Mona Fastvold]

There is. Because there is. You're creating a small community. And how that community functions is important to me. That everyone is taken care of and that there is not too much of a. Not a hierarchy. That is. Negative hierarchy. That there is. That doesn't exist. That, of course, everyone has roles that they fill. And because dangerous things can happen on film sets, because you're rigging electricity, big lights, you're doing stunts, all these things, everyone needs to do the job that they're assigned to do. Of course, it's like, you know, like you're on a ship or in the army or something you have there. It has to be precise. But the creative sort of. To create a creative environment whenever anyone can come to my monitor and we can all talk and we're all part of creating something together. And that sense of unity is incredibly important to me. So I hope that. And I don't know how to fully preserve that. And I don't know how to have all the autonomy that I need, which is, you know, final cuts and all these things that are to preserve that within the Hollywood universe. I don't know. I don't know if that how, you know, some people do. There's some great filmmakers who've done that for their whole career. And maybe. Maybe I get to not have to, you know, work so hard on the. On the financing part in the future. But I do want to preserve them. I do want it to make sense, though, also. There's a sustainability element, too. That's important to me a little bit.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you mean by that?

[Mona Fastvold]

I mean that I want. I feel a great responsibility when I'm making, when I'M telling a story for it. Also, I feel a responsibility for people who put the money in as well. I want it to. To make sense, you know, in every way when the film comes out as well. So you tell a really radical story and I would love for it to reach as many people as possible. We can't always guarantee that and maybe sometimes it takes time and I guess I'm. I feel anxious about not making everyone whole and making sure that everyone, every single person is, you know, that it made sense for them as well. So I think there's like that all of that autonomy that I get from keeping the budget at a quite reasonable place feels good to me. That being said, one of my favorite movies of all time is Lovers on the Bridge and Carax.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Mona Fastvold]

One of the most expensive films in, you know, the history of French filmmaking. And it was, did not make its money back and it was not. It was a, you know, was really. But I would, and I would be heartbroken if that film didn't exist. So it's not really, it's not about like, you know, that it, that it's a bad thing that you make a beautiful piece of art and then over time, you know, it maybe it just, you should just be. I'm just glad they exist. But I think I, I think also maybe being. Being a woman as well. There's, there's like a really. In this really heavily male dominated profession, I feel the need and the want for every aspect of it to work and to make sense. And I don't know, maybe that's something I have to get over.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, no, no.

[Mona Fastvold]

But I do feel, I feel that need for it. Just like I want the whole process. I want to understand the whole process from beginning to end, from, you know, writing to the film is on, you know, your streamer or whatnot. And that whole process, I want it. I want to somehow be in slightly. Somehow in part of it and really. And understand it for it to, to fully, like, make sense for the project.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I always say it's an art form, but it is a commercial art form. Right. It's a, it is a release art form you're meant to share with as many people as possible.

[Mona Fastvold]

You are, you are. And it's exciting if you can do something that's radical and that pushes boundaries and ideas within that format. I, I am, you know, I grew up in Norway and I've spent my adult life in America. My films have always been an American European co production of some sort. That space between the two is a Place I really love. There's elements I don't want my films to be. My films, I find them to be. To speak to the Hollywood tradition as much as it speaks to the European tradition. For both. For everything I write and the things I direct, I really love American movies. You know, we're here in the city of David lynch and Spielberg and, you know, there's. And I love. I love those. I love the grand, you know, American movies as well.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is like a John Ford movie, but with music in it.

[Mona Fastvold]

I mean, this is a story about.

[Sean Fennessy]

A hero conquering America in some ways, and in other ways not.

[Mona Fastvold]

Yes. And I watch. I wanted to nod to that with the story because I felt her being this. This, you know, this audacious feminist, you know, religious leader, but then to try and give her a little bit of that Hollywood treatment. It's exciting to me. So if Hollywood wants to come along on some of these things, sure, that would be great. But, you know, if not, then it's. I know how to do it. I know how to build these movies and execute them and make them happen. And, you know, I. If I can't find a distributor who wants to put it out, then we'll figure that out too. I. I think there's. You can. You can always learn about this process. And there's lots of good people that you can hire who will work with you and. But, you know. But now being with a luxurious distributor for this strange lady, Ann Lee is fabulous. Wonderful.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'll be watching regardless. Mona. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they have seen? Don't know if you've been watching movies on your journeys.

[Mona Fastvold]

Yes, I have been watching movies on my journeys. The last great thing that I saw. Well, I mean, I presented a print of Lovers on the Bridge in Sag Harbor. I. The cinema out there.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, amazing.

[Mona Fastvold]

When we were there. So. I mean, that was so beautiful to see that print. It was stunning. It was so.

[Sean Fennessy]

When did you first see it? Did you see it upon release?

[Mona Fastvold]

No, I mean, I was young. What year did it come out in?

[Sean Fennessy]

Mid-90s, right?

[Mona Fastvold]

Yeah, I guess I saw it upon release then, I would imagine. Yeah. And back in Norway.

[Sean Fennessy]

What is it about that movie that.

[Mona Fastvold]

I think it's the ambition and I think it's the physicality. There's a lot of movement in it as well, which is, like, incredible. It's like one of the best, most incredible physical performance, performance artists and. And. And performances that. That exists. And then Juliet and I don't know there's seeing it now. It was making. It was bringing tears to my eyes because it really made me think so much about how many in New York now that, you know that there's a crisis with people who are, you know, unhoused people and in here as well, obviously. And just seeing the. This like beautiful, like romantic, wonderful love story from their perspective, I was like, I'm happy to. I think we should. More people should revisit that film. It's a great recommendation right now. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thanks, Mona.

[Mona Fastvold]

No, thanks. Thanks for having me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Thanks to Mona Fastful. Thanks to Chris Ryan, CR third chair in our hearts. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode. We'll be back next week with a draft.

[Amanda Davins]

Oh yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a Matt Damon and Ben Affleck draft.

[Amanda Davins]

So excited.

[Sean Fennessy]

The cause for such draft is the film the rip.

[Amanda Davins]

I already. I made my long list already. It's like harder choices have never been made for me personally.

[Sean Fennessy]

We tried this once before.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

With George Clooney and Brad Pitt and it didn't. Complicated episode.

[Amanda Davins]

Yeah. I guess we'd seen wolves. Wolves, wolves, wolves, wolves. It's ima fix wolves and then wolves. Yeah. All illustrious moments in our cultural history. We had seen wolves, but we still wanted to do the draft. I was, I was also really pregnant at that point.

[Sean Fennessy]

What happened? Do you have the baby?

[Amanda Davins]

I think so.

[Mona Fastvold]

Yeah.

[Amanda Davins]

Worked out. I. I think this will be good. I'm excited.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think so too. There's a lot of good stuff to choose from. We'll see you then.