‘A House of Dynamite’ Is Ready to Explode

Summary

Podcast Summary: "A House of Dynamite" Is Ready to Explode

The Big Picture | The Ringer | October 27, 2025
Hosts: Sean Fennessey, Amanda Dobbins (with Adam Naiman)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins dive into Kathryn Bigelow's latest film, A House of Dynamite—her first movie in eight years, now streaming on Netflix. They discuss the movie's tense premise about a potential nuclear attack on the U.S., its structure and cast, and what it says about the state of both American cinema and the world. The conversation also explores evolving moviegoing habits, the box office landscape, and shifts in the film industry, with special guest Adam Naiman later joining to review Kelly Reichardt’s "The Mastermind."

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Key Discussion Points

1. Box Office Trends & Theatrical Evolution (02:00–11:30)

• Anime's Surge at the Box Office:

  • Chainsaw Man is #1, reflecting anime’s growing mainstream appeal in U.S. theaters—once reliant on star-driven films, now overtaken by eventized genres (02:00–04:04).
  • "Anime fandom and the box office. The idea that literally Sony distributing huge movies in the anime world, like Demon Slayer... something is changing." —Sean Fennessey (02:23)

• Eventization of Moviegoing:

  • Not just in big cities; Cinemark is building IMAX 70mm screens in secondary markets—a shift toward premium formats and making going to the movies an "event" (04:09–06:34).
  • Amanda likens current moviegoing to concerts: fewer events, but with higher dedication and spending (05:19).

• Changing Audience Behavior:

  • Less casual discovery; audiences now prioritize established connections (franchises, premium experiences) over spontaneous viewings of adult dramas.
  • "The market is smaller, so that is bad for rapacious corporations that only want to use it to make money. But I don't know, we like movies." —Amanda Dobbins (10:09)

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2. Review: A House of Dynamite (13:03–55:47)

Basic Details & Rollout (13:03–14:35)

• Directed by Kathryn Bigelow, written by Noah Oppenheim.
• Cast includes Idris Elba (President), Rebecca Ferguson, Gabriel Basso, Jared Harris, Tracy Letts, and more.
• The plot: U.S. military detects a nuclear missile headed for Chicago; various government factions scramble in response.

Initial Reactions

• Amanda saw it at Venice, loved the tension and pace, found it effective both at the festival and at home:
  "I found myself, like, very, very jittery. And I think that's what it's trying to do" (16:41).
• Sean went in with high expectations, loved the first third, but found the finale deeply disappointing:
  "I found the third act to be like, pretty much a fiasco. It is really one of the most, like, disappointing things I've seen in a movie in a while." (18:46)

Film Structure and Character Breakdown

• The movie unfolds in a repeating triptych of 18-minute sequences from perspectives inside different government agencies (the Situation Room, NSA, DoD, FEMA, etc.) (19:32–20:54).
• Each time, more information is revealed about bumbling bureaucracy and human frailty in nuclear crisis scenarios.
• The story foregrounds Rebecca Ferguson’s Situation Room officer, balancing professionalism with maternal anxiety:
  "She's up at 4:30 in the morning with her sick toddler... Very humanizing moment." —Sean (22:00)
  • Emotional stakes are grounded by moments like her prepping a "dead list" of potential survivors (27:06).
• Notably, the script sidelines several promising female characters.

Bigelow’s Style and Thematic Interests

• The film leans into contemporary fears of disaster preparedness and the randomness of fate—who ends up making world-altering decisions (23:43–24:49).
• Amanda: "We're fucked. You know, that we are living in a world and we are not thinking about the fact that everyone is armed and this can happen in two seconds, and there's really nothing you can do, and there are no good options." (24:31)

Critiques of Execution

• Weak Third Act: Both hosts agree the movie stumbles in its last section, especially concerning the President (Idris Elba):
  • Elba’s performance: "He has no gravitas. And when he's trying to do a little bit of a folksy accent thing, that doesn't really work..." —Sean (43:35)
  • Amanda: "As Zach said, it's a really bad Idris Elba performance, also, which is very confusing. This is usually very good." (43:35)
  • Structural repetition loses tension and feels less justified as the film proceeds.
• On-the-Nose Metaphors:
  • Stagey invocation of the film’s title, doubled down in both dialogue and act breaks.
  • Over-explicit symbolism—e.g., a Gettysburg reenactment as backdrop for a conversation about nuclear war.
    "Really bad writing. Silly. It is like the most hat on a hat thing ever." —Sean (35:49)
• Unresolved, Deflating Ending:
  • The film ends ambiguously, refusing clear resolution in favor of existential bleakness.
    "One of the most, like, kick the full bucket of paint into the street movie endings to a movie I've ever seen where I'm just like, what the fuck?" —Sean (50:19)
  • Amanda accepts the ambiguity, but agrees it feels dramatically unsatisfying.
  • Reports of critics laughing or groaning at the NY Film Festival screening (55:00).

Memorable Quotes

• "Being right is not the solution. It is working together with people to better understand one another, to try to fix things over the long term." —Sean (30:16)
• [About the President] "To me, this is just a complete failure of casting. This is a 53 year old British man being asked to shoot a basketball in the movie. Not a good choice." —Sean (42:17)
• "I wish that the Idris stuff and the stuff in the plane ... were performed at a higher level, and I wish that that hit, because the essential nature ... is, like, it all comes down to one guy, like, on a plane in three minutes with, like, a diner menu in front of them. And also think about the guy in question, like, right now, who's making those decisions. Like, it's not good." —Amanda (51:00)

Oscar Prospects & Technical Elements (58:47–65:00)

• With mixed reviews, the film has dropped out of Best Picture contention.
• Possible nominations: sound design & score (Volker Bertelmann), but the field is crowded.
• Amanda bluntly: "I would like it on the record that I think that this film is better than House of Dynamite. This is a better movie and a better movie about America and the American condition." (81:36)

Bigelow's Overall Career

• Both hosts agree Point Break is still her best film ("Yeah, I think that's."—Sean, 66:05).
• General sense of disappointment that A House of Dynamite doesn’t live up to her highest work, but respect and affection for her talent remains.

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3. Kelly Reichardt's The Mastermind: Guest Adam Naiman Joins (69:35–93:12)

Film Summary

• Reichardt’s “The Mastermind” stars Josh O’Connor as an inept would-be art thief in 1970s New England, examining male delusion and American malaise.
• Adam notes Reichardt's characteristic focus on rootless, unsatisfied Americans, and applauds the film’s dry, sometimes “mean” sense of humor (73:23).

Highlights

• The protagonist’s narcissism and lack of real ideology are hilariously skewered; the film directly and indirectly compares his failings to America’s own during Vietnam/Watergate.
  • "A domestic deserter ... and he doesn't even have the paintings to show for it." —Adam (79:21)
• The ending deliberately avoids uplifting closure, instead holding focus on the futility of ego-driven, pointless schemes.
  • Sean: "The air out of the balloon at the end of this movie I found to be very effective. ... there is something very intentional and ... very subtle but very sophisticated..." (80:30)
• Consensus: It’s one of Reichardt’s best, and a richer examination of American brokenness than A House of Dynamite.

Josh O’Connor: The New Leading Man

• The hosts and Adam praise O’Connor’s extraordinary run (from Challengers to La Chimera, Wake Up Deadman, etc.), calling him dynamic, singular, and versatile—and a magnet for top directors (85:04–88:20).
  • "He doesn't speak very much in all of those movies, pretty much... I'm a huge fan." —Amanda (88:18)
• Reichardt’s skewering of male vanity aligns with O’Connor’s ability to oscillate between charm and pathos.

Distribution and State of Indie Cinema

• The group lauds Mubi and other small distributors for supporting filmmakers like Reichardt in a perilous time for indie theatrical.
• Adam adds context from Toronto: rep houses and art screens struggle to give small movies a proper shot, despite festival rhythms (96:56).

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Notable Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Movies as Hobbies:
  "It does feel like moviegoing is getting a little closer to stamp collecting or the jazz clubs in Ghost. But as long as people. It's like open to anybody to participate." —Sean (11:39)

• On Oscar Chances:
  “Kind of tough to get editing without a Best Picture nomination.” —Sean (63:00)

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Key Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------------|----------------| | Box Office, Anime, Eventization of Moviegoing | 02:00–11:30 | | Introduction to A House of Dynamite Review | 13:03–14:35 | | Amanda’s Venice Experience & Initial Reactions | 14:12–16:41 | | Film Structure/Character Overview | 19:32–22:00 | | On Ferguson’s Heroine & Realism of Nuclear Scenarios | 22:42–24:49 | | Critiques: Gender, Writing, and Rashomon Comparison | 20:54, 32:34 | | Breakdown of Flawed Third Act & Ending | 43:35–55:41 | | Oscar Prospects, Technical Tributes | 58:47–65:56 | | Bigelow’s Career in Perspective | 66:00–68:49 | | The Mastermind Review with Adam Naiman | 69:35–93:12 |

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Conclusion

Sean, Amanda, and Adam deliver a rich, spirited conversation. While A House of Dynamite shows flashes of Kathryn Bigelow’s old brilliance, especially in its nerve-wracking opening act, it ultimately falters due to a miscast President, awkward writing, and an unsatisfying finale. The review is further enhanced by insightful industry discussion (anime boom, eventized cinema, the "hyper niche" era), sharp criticism of script and performance missteps, and a striking comparison between how two contemporary directors (Bigelow, Reichardt) treat American societal rot. The episode is essential listening for movie lovers wanting both in-depth review and big-picture film culture analysis.

Transcript

[Sean Fennesee]

I'm Sean Fennesee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is The.

[Sean Fennesee]

Big Picture 8 conversation show about nuclear deterrence, mutually assured destruction, and asymmetric responses. Today on the show, Amanda and I will discuss one of the biggest movies of the year, Kathryn Bigelow's long awaited 11th feature film, a House of Dynamite, which is now streaming on Netflix.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was a good joke that you wrote because every podcast that we do is about then you just fed right through it. So I just wanted to let you know.

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, I wanted to deliver it in a serious fashion, suggested the severity of this issue.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is factually accurate, but perhaps this podcast tagline is asymmetric responses.

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, we'll see about how we talk about this new film. This is a tense thriller about a potential nuclear attack on the United States of America. Amanda Duggett. I have some notes about this movie. We will take it to DEFCON 1 very soon.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I really, I didn't do enough DEFCON 1 research, like DEFCON system research. This is a recurring thing at the movies and I'm realizing right now that, that I should have googled it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Maybe now is the time. Later in this episode, our pal Adam Naiman is gonna join us to talk about Kelly Reichart's new movie, the Mastermind, one of my favorite movies of the year. I'm very excited to talk to Adam and we're also gonna talk about the box office and some news. So we'll see you soon. This episode is presented by LinkedIn ads.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Sean Fennesee]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Sean Fennesee]

Let's start with the box office. As suggested on our critically acclaimed Springsteen delivery Move From Nowhere episode, Chainsaw man is the number one movie in America.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

How many times have you seen it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, well, you know, I started the first screening at Saturday was not early enough for me, so I could only get there, you know, at noon. I would really love it if they could start the 9, 10am Just so I can fit in one more, you know.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, I'll call AMC about that. So you saw it five times? 12, 2, 4, 6, 8. Impressive. I haven't seen it yet. I will see it. But something is obviously happening. Anime fandom and the box office. The idea that like literally Sony distributing huge movies in the anime world, like Demon Slayer a month and a half ago, and this film is showing, something is changing. We're not as. We need. We need to basically do like a long episode about this. And I know that this content will be incoherent to you, and it will be incoherent mostly.

[Adam Naiman]

Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like, are you. You know, I mean, I've seen like.

[Sean Fennesee]

The classics, you know, like, I've seen like Akira and Ghost in the Shell and those movies and I have some familiarity with the storytelling stuff.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This is like a TV show that became a movie. And this is young people, Right. Like young people who live and die by anime. And this was a big event for them. And so they like go out to the theaters the same way Gabby's Dollhouse was for small children. Except those children were not old enough to go to the theaters, by the way.

[Sean Fennesee]

They couldn't go by themselves. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And their parents didn't want to take them.

[Sean Fennesee]

I mean, there are obviously plenty of adult anime fans, but Chainsaw man is not like Demon Slayer. It's a fairly recent TV show that just came out, I want to say three. Three years ago. And I remember Charles Holmes telling me, like, you should watch this. You would like it. And I never watched it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

But you know, it's been a pretty bleak October at the box office.

[Amanda Dobbins]

True.

[Sean Fennesee]

And it's mostly been the Conjuring 5 and Demon Slayer and Chainsaw man and bigger movies. These sort of like old school star led movies. The Smashing Machine, Roofman, after the Hunt, Springsteen delivered me from nowhere.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Adult dramas that very few people loved and nobody went to see.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. None of them really had strong word of mouth. None of them. I mean, they're operating in the way a movie is operated in 1995 or even 2005. And that's harder to sell than ever. There needs to be like a boom around the movie. Right. Like there needs to be like a big conversation. So I bring that up because I thought there was an interesting bit of news this morning in Variety. They reported that Cinemark, one of the theatrical distribution chains, is opening new 70 millimeter IMAX screens in some of their locations. And those locations are not Los Angeles or even Seattle. They're In Colorado Springs. They're in Rochester, New York. They're in smaller cities, still cities, of course, but like just smaller cities around the country. And it's a small piece of news on a Monday morning. But it does indicate to me that it's like one more link in the chain of how the business is changing, that it's like movies are being eventized. These theaters are being built literally for Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey. And you can charge more for those tickets. You can fit usually more butts in those seats. And it just eventizes. Going to the movies does what I'm saying makes sense?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, yes, and we've been talking about that. For each audience or each market in its different way, it has become more akin to a concert than the movie going of our youth, which is like, we just got dropped off at the mall every Saturday in order and would go see whatever. And so people make plans in advance for, like, fewer things, but they're willing to spend more money for it. They probably have more of a previous connection to the material than just kind of wandering in and checking out what's going on. And this. Hmm. I'll just like, flip through this sense of discovery.

[Sean Fennesee]

What's this? Roof man.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I'd like to learn about him.

[Sean Fennesee]

Is he on top of a roof?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Channing Tatum. I like him. I guess I'll wander in. That sense of discovery is just not how people see the movies. But on the other hand, all of the anime fans will go see the movie when it's in theaters. All of the nerds will seek out the prestige, the premium formats, people, for Wicked for good or for kind of, you know, the IP stuff, if you know about it and you have some sort of. Sort of previous investment, then you will actually spend a lot of money on it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, you'll go. You'll go to the early access screening, you'll buy the popcorn bucket, you'll go back on Friday night. You know, you'll make it a part of your identity in a way to participate in these things. That's definitely chainsaw, man. That's definitely wicked for good. It's interesting. I mean, it's just clearly a much smaller business. And I think about all of my freakouts over the last six or seven years on the show, and I have been way more chilled out. I think about it this year, relatively speaking, because I think I've just accepted it's just a lot smaller. And it doesn't mean that there can't be grand slams like the Odyssey. The thing I think I'm still holding onto is when Sinners and Weapons succeed, which are modestly sized movies. 50, 70, $90 million movies. I don't want to just punt on that stuff. So that's the one last thing that I'm like. I probably will continue to yell at studios on the podcast. I feel like we have to empower genuine visionary filmmakers and give them money to do their thing. If you're not doing two to three of those a year and two of them will miss and one will hit, then it's like, why even have a movie business? And that's like at the heart of my feeling around this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. So just big picture yelling at corporations is good. We will continue to do that. You know, just in general, like whatever the suits want to do. That's, you know, we will, we will hold them accountable. But yeah, I would, I agree with you and I think those are still, especially in the case of sinners, money making opportunities. When you get it right. And that's always been the business, right? Like this is a weird, weird business where you spend a lot of money and however many spreadsheets or you know, McKinsey consultants you have, there's no guarantee and something hits or something doesn't. Sometimes you can make $1 billion and a lot of times you lose a lot of money. So if they're, you know, corporations are always going to try to corporatize it. But yeah, if you want to stay in the business, stay in the business of making movies.

[Sean Fennesee]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

The other thing that's interesting about this or exciting to me and the, you know, and the 70 millimeter IMAX which again I called everyone interested a nerd and I include myself in that I suppose, but the business is getting smaller but there is like there is a really specific enthusiasm that we see across culture more broadly, which is things are not as, as broad but the enthusiasts are really the enthusiasts. And so there are a lot of like minded people out there who care enough about IMAX 70 millimeter that they are building them not just in like the coastal quote unquote movie temples. And that's cool. And it is. I mean, we see it, you know, in the response to this show. We see it at like the rep theaters. We see it in Jack's Halloween costume. Jack, do you want to spoil what you're being for the people?

[Sean Fennesee]

We need to free each other's hearts. That's right. I'm Joe Cross. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it's like we're still working out how Jack is actually going to execute this.

[Sean Fennesee]

So if anyone act Joe Cross.

[Adam Naiman]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

Like first and second act Joe, maybe I'll leave that up for interpretation.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

But it sounds elaborate, but so, you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Know, movies are a thing, which is really exciting.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They're just. They are a thing in a different way. And they are, to your point, like the market is smaller, so that is bad for rapacious corporations that only want to use it to make money. But I don't know, we like movies.

[Sean Fennesee]

We do. I have talked about this a lot in my other job here at the Ringer over and over again. Anytime I talk with anybody who's developing a new show, which is that we're just in the era of hyper niche. There are certainly like 25 or 30 massive podcasts, but most of the most successful podcasts in the world right now have like good sized audiences, but their audiences are hyper dedicated to what they do. And movies are actually now closer to podcasts than podcasts are to movies. You know what I mean? Somehow just whatever you are interested in in media, everything is kind of shrinking down and congealing together. And it's for the same reason that Joe or Jane Moviegoer is like, I'll wait for streaming for Roofman. They are also probably going to listen to their podcast, which is available to them quickly right away. Obviously the scale of these things is not comparable. When Sinners makes $400 million, that's dramatically different from smaller sizes of media. So that's why I'm gonna keep fighting for those things. I'm very interested in the premium large format thing. It's obviously generally a good thing because you want as many people to have access to the cool ways that we get to see movies here in Los Angeles, in New York and Chicago and a handful of. Actually, Chicago doesn't have a 70 millimeter IMAX theater, which is crazy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

So you want people to be able to see things in that way. It does feel like moviegoing is getting a little closer to stamp collecting or the jazz clubs in Ghost. But as long as people. It's like open to anybody to participate.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's little. You are the stamp Collector. Right. You know, and that's. I guess that's a different way of monetizing it, which is good.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's just a hobby.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's really good that you have hobbies. I'm a proponent of hobbies, as you know.

[Sean Fennesee]

So go outside.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yours does not involve going outside, but that's okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

No, the. My collection is getting. Getting really, really good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I heard. Yeah. The. What'd you get on the Criterion sale?

[Sean Fennesee]

A bunch. A bunch of stuff.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

I filled out my Olivier Asayas stack. I feel good about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

I got the Lone Wolf and Cub box set which I'm feeling good about. Okay. I actually got it ultimately mostly for Shogun Assassin. Do you know about that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Sean Fennesee]

Let me describe it to you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Lone Wolf and Cub, these Japanese, Japanese samurai movies. Shogun Assassin is a re edit, dubbed re Edit from 1980 of the first two Lone Wolf and Cub movies with a completely different score, a synth score. And that movie and that score and the dialogue from that dubbed movie became the backbone of JZA's liquid swords.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That is cool.

[Sean Fennesee]

Which is Wu Tang Clan members first solo album. And so I've heard lines of dialogue from Shogun Assassin thousands of times in my life as a nerdy 11 year old listening to Liquid Swords over and over again. And now I'll be able to own the movie that those lines are pulled from. Anyhow, thanks for indulging that. Movies are doing great. You want to talk about House of Dynamite? Yeah. Okay. So this has been a very interesting rollout for this movie. Sure, yeah, I'll give the details first. As I said, this is Kathryn Bigelow's new movie, her first film in eight years. It's written by Noah Oppenheim, who is also a screenwriter who wrote Jackie. He is also someone who managed the NBC news team during a very fraught time in its history. The movie stars Idris Elba as the President of the United States. Rebecca Ferguson, Gabriel Basso, Jared Harris, our good friend Tracy Letts, Anthony Ramos, Moses Ingram, Greta Lee, Jason Clark. Star studded cast. The radars at Fort Greely, Alaska detect a nuclear missile. The President and his entourage must use the limited time they have to try to shoot down the missile to before it reaches Chicago. That's the logline of this movie. Now you saw it at Venice. Did you watch it again at home?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did. I watched it last night with my husband who was just. I told him, you know, after bedtime tonight I'm gonna have to watch the new Bigelow movie. And he doesn't Always want to participate in my podcast prep, but he cleared his schedule for this one. Thank you, Zach, for all that you did.

[Sean Fennesee]

That's nice. So he had not seen it before?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay. So what did you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

What did you think seeing it a second time? If people missed our festival episode.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

And maybe what did Zach think? I'm curious about that as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So you pointed out it was the last film that I saw at Venice. So it was after, I think I saw 15 or so films of varying quality. And also Tracy Letts and the entire cast were there. And I got to go to the premiere and I got to see our friend. So I was, first of all, in a great mood. And second of all, it really was a palate cleanser after what was. You know, there is a type of film that goes to a European awards festival, and it is not usually a snazzy political thriller, American political thriller featuring movie stars showing up. It can be a little more arthouse. So I. And to really put it in context, I believe it was earlier that day, or maybe the day before, I had seen Jude Law playing Vladimir Putin in an Olivier assass movie.

[Sean Fennesee]

Speaking of, I do wanna see that movie, even though no one seemed to like it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I saw, and more problematically, Paul Dano as the titular wizard of the Kremlin, doing an accent that I just didn't really understand.

[Sean Fennesee]

Paul Dano alone.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Paul Dano is wonderful. And we don't talk enough about. Is it wildlife? Yes, like an incredible movie that he directed. So, you know, in terms of implausible world leaders, I was like, again, I was already primed. But I.

[Sean Fennesee]

Right, good point.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I really, really enjoyed it. I watched it. I was not bored. I was very stressed out, was happy to be there, came home, and then everyone in New York and you saw it, and we're pretty sour grapes about it. And so it was interesting watching it again last night. I understand your notes, especially about implausible world leaders. And I think probably it's just the ratio of notes to enjoyment that differ between us.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think we should talk about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I. I'm still kind of watching it at home especially. I was like, this is pretty good, especially in terms of the context of things that I pull up, especially on Netflix. And I was really stressed out. Like, there is an effective quality to the filmmaking, and I guess it pushes enough of my buttons that I. I found myself, like, very, very jittery. And I think that's what it's trying to do to an agreement. So it's effective.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. I think it is effective in some ways. I think in part because you had me very hyped about the movie. I went in with high expectations. I think in general, your reaction at Venice was not uncommon. Most of the Venice reactions were very positive for the movie. Also, Bigelow, Academy Award winner, one of the great living filmmakers. Right. One of the more interesting filmographies. She's obviously kind of settled into this mode that we can talk about in her last four films, essentially. But a director known for creating, like the ecstatic moment. Right. She is able to generate an energy when you're watching a movie that is pretty rare. So, you know, my. I saw this movie before that faded New York Film Festival press screening, which we can talk about a little bit, just because I've heard from like nine friends about it. But I saw it in a Netflix screening room and I was pretty disappointed by it. I think, like many people loved the first third. Yeah, loved was as locked into a movie as I have been all year.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

The second third was delighted by Tracy's performance primarily. And also Gabriel Basso, who's an actor who I think is really promising, who is very good in juror number two, who is trying to wipe the J.D. vance slate clean.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did. It took me a minute while watching the movie at Venice to place him and then I placed him as JD Vance and I was like, oh, yeah. You know, And I don't. And the associations that it's bringing from. And he's sort of a Netflix. Is he also the. What's the name of that show? The Night Agent.

[Sean Fennesee]

He's the Night.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He is the Night Agent.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

He is a star on the rise.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And he's very, very good in this film as a deputy NSA bureaucrat. And I found the third act to be like, pretty much a fiasco. It is really one of the most, like, disappointing things I've seen in a movie in a while.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think rewatching it last night, I see it. And as Zack put it, Zack liked the movie as well. We both agree that the third act kind of gets pretty loosey goosey. And I remember even watching it when Idris is in the basketball arena and the nuclear weapons assistant and the Secret Service guy are talking. I was like, what's going on here? This is very strange.

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, it's a function of the structure. Right. So like, let's talk about that and what the point of the movie is. So the movie is. It's a. It's a three part repeating 18 minute real time sequence in the moments before a nuclear attack. So in the United States, we learn, even though the satellites have missed, this ICBM is flying directly at the center of the United States. And in this parable, I guess we see the reaction from basically all sectors of the federal government that would be implicated. That includes the executive branch and the President's Situation Room, which is where we find Rebecca Ferguson's character. The National Security Agency, that's the Gabriel Basso character. The Department of Defense. Jared Harris plays the head of the Department of Defense, the army at Fort Greely in Alaska, which is responsible for overseeing the missile response in the United States.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And that's where Tracy is, right?

[Sean Fennesee]

No, no, that's Anthony Ramos is there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay, so Tracy is in the army or the United States Strategic Command StratCom, which is in Nebraska.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, but I thought. Oh, I thought it was like undisclosed location.

[Sean Fennesee]

No, it says Nebraska.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, it does. Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

And then FEMA as well. You see, for reasons that I think are a little bewildering, I think this script has a lot of stray string attached to it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

And it's because we're in the White House press room.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. But like, not really getting to know any characters. We get like maybe 90 seconds with Willa Fitzgerald, maybe three minutes with Moses Ingraham, maybe four minutes with Greta Lee. The movie has unusual disinterest in its female characters. You know, Brittany o' Grady from the White Lotus is just like Gabriel Basso's wife. You know, that's a small criticism, but it's one that on the second viewing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was like, well, I mean, Rebecca Ferguson is just. Is the entire movie.

[Sean Fennesee]

She is. But she only gives you only 27 minutes, you know, 28 minutes, really, with Rebecca Ferguson. So this like, repeating structure where we see the events through all of those. The eyes and all of those worlds, but certain information is obscured each time. So the film opens primarily through the eyes of Ferguson's character. She plays someone named Olivia Walker, who is just the senior officer in the Situation Room observing these events. We see her. I think the movie sets up that character very well. She's up at 4:30 in the morning with her sick toddler who can relate. Right. Very humanizing moment.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. It's just. And then he gives her a tiny dinosaur figurine that shows up throughout the thing. I mean, it's absolutely brutal.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, Just a very effective way to get us invested in her. Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the kid's second. So as her work day is playing out, she's trying to figure out how to get in touch with her husband and son, who are, like, at the pediatrician. And, you know, and there are lots of, like, rules and regulations in terms of how you're supposed to communicate as a human being versus, like, a public officer, which she does very well.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it's. I found it excruciating. I also hadn't seen my kids in 10 days when I saw this for the first time, so I was really, really stressed out about it. In the way that you're supposed to be.

[Sean Fennesee]

Absolutely. I think also she is a classic Bigelow heroine, where she's kind of, like, favoring competence porn in the face of immense tragedy. Like, this goes all the way back to Blue Steel. Like, she's consistently very interested in these characters. Johnny Utah is one of those characters. You know, obviously, Jessica Chastain's character in Zero Dark Thirty. Like, there's a lot of echoes of these kinds of characters in her movie. She's really good at getting you connected to these figures. We also meet Major Daniel Gonzalez. That's Ramos character, who is sort of the commander at Fort Greely, who seems to be having a very bad day and seems very upset and frustrated with his staff even before this incident begins. The reason for doing the movie this way is very obvious, which is. It's just a revelation that there's been a lot of accepted protocol in the event of something like this for decades, because we've been living in a nuclear era for a very long time, even though we don't think of ourselves as living in the nuclear era the way you might have in 1961.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

But that it is very rarely, if ever tested. And even when it is tested, it's a test. And so what an actual attack would reveal.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Is a kind of like, emotional unpreparedness for something like this. And then this revelation that we're all just human beings and the fate of the world lies in the hands of people and maybe flawed people and maybe distracted people or maybe even people who didn't come to work that day.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

And that. That is, in and of itself, very scary and very tense. Making. Like you're saying.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I mean, you're right. That that is part of it. I think there is a broader illustration at play, which is just that.

[Sean Fennesee]

I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Mean, we're like, that we're fucked. You know, that we are living in a world and we are not thinking about the fact that everyone is armed and this can happen in two seconds, and there's really nothing you can do, and there are no good options.

[Sean Fennesee]

Right. In the event that this starts, there's not like a. There's no cure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

All right? And that we're all going. Including all of these public officials are going around living our life like, you know, it's unthinkable. And people get evacuation alerts and are, like, brought to bunkers, and they're like, are you kidding me? Like, we're not doing this. You can't be serious. But, like, everything is very, very possible.

[Sean Fennesee]

And it's an interesting time to look at this, because if you think about it, think about it like this. Somebody could have been born in 1945 after the proliferation of the atomic bomb, and that person could have died two weeks before this movie came out, and they would have lived to be 80 years old.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

They would have lived their entire life never having seen a nuclear attack on the United States of America. First of all, congratulations. That's wonderful for that. This imaginary person that we are inventing. It is also interesting, though, because it. I think I'm just reading what Bigelow has been saying about this. She's echoing what you're saying where she's like, this can and, like, maybe will happen. And we don't even think about it. We don't even consider its potentiality and just how charged it is. I think the script is pretty overwrought in describing metaphorically the way that. In which that is true.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

At the end of the film, Idris Elba delivers the titular metaphor, which he says that he heard while listening to a podcast.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. In general, when the person says the name of the title, which is also after.

[Sean Fennesee]

Sometimes it's good eee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But the number of times that you have the Leo and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood meme in a good way versus the dun, dun, dun. This is also. The film is divided into three segments, and each has a subhead. And the subhead of the third is a house built of dynamite. And so it's the second time that they are just underlining, you know, highlighting in different colors the title of the movie. I agree. It's not subtle. I agree. The third act, everything that's going on with Idris Elba in his. Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

We'll talk about two. First, we'll save it. We'll save it in one. Like I said, the movie had me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

I was very invested. It ends in this incredibly emotional moment that you described where Ferguson's character calls her husband, reaches her husband, tells him to just drive west away from urban centers and try to save your family. Because I'm. I have not been brought into the locked safety room. I'm here. And if there is a strike on Chicago, there's probably gonna be one on D.C. and then this is it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And they've already been asked to make a dead list, which is the names and Social Security numbers of everyone who's left behind in the Situation room.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I mean, and there's something like. And they're writing it, like, on a. On, like, a piece of paper, just, like, passing it around. Like, White House situation Room. Like, memo, notepad, you know, which is so. Everyone's so unprepared.

[Sean Fennesee]

I also really like the chaos of everyone just, like, leaving for the day because something terrible is happening. That there's that great moment where the man that she's working with in the Situation room goes outside and tells the man who's working at the concession stand to leave for the day. That is just like, go home.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Just very quiet. Very little said between two characters, but really delivers the severity of the situation. So at that moment, you're like, okay, the end of Act 1. If you don't know about this repeating structure, you're like, okay, so we're really gonna find out, like, what's gonna happen here. We are watching a nuclear war movie. That's what this is going to be. And then the film goes back and resets. Yeah, and it resets. And it resets with Tracy, which is great. Obviously, Tracy is a wonderful actor, and he's very, very good and very funny and has also simultaneously incredible gravitas in this role as what I would say is like, a pretty typical kind of part, which is the more war hawkish general who, when faced with a kind of threat to the country, his only response is to try to encourage leadership, to act, to get ahead of this, to kill. Now, before he does that, he does talk about Francisco Lindor, like, multiple times. Francisco Lindor comes up twice. Francisco Lindor, the shortstop for the New York Mets, probably my favorite living athlete. Somebody who's very dear to me, very dear to Jack. And I just want to say thank you to Tracy for that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I came out of the screening, and that's the first thing I said to Tracy. And the first thing I said to you, I was like, this is for us, really for the two of you. But I was happy for you.

[Sean Fennesee]

It was very nice.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I enjoyed it also. You know, this movie does a sometimes effective and sometimes clumsy thing of every single person you meet has, like, a little bit of characterization.

[Adam Naiman]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And this is. Tracy's character is the general's character, and he's talking with another officer, and the officer is like, really? Do you let your kids stay up that late? And the Tracy character goes like, they give you a choice. And the other character's like, no, they do not. And I was like, that is succinct and makes me understand a lot about these people without it being like, and here is the sonogram of my life, you know, which. Like, we've all been there, you know, like, we've all looked at those pictures. Well, anyone who's, you know, looked at those pictures. But no. So he's wonderful. And he also. He is playing, like, a familiar part. But because he is our friend, Tracy Letts plays it with both gravitas, but also, like, a real. Like, you believe him. Like, you know, points are made.

[Sean Fennesee]

No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Even if you're, like, extremely anti war, as both of us are like, you're just like, well, but I see what he's saying.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know, I saw Begonia for the second time last week, and I was thinking about something after I saw that, which was that being right is not a solution.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And I felt that way similarly about Tracy's character in this film. Like, being right is not the solution to the problem. It is working together with people to better understand one another, to try to fix things over the long term. The thing that I noticed the second time I watched it, that I think is a clever bit of structure in the screenplay, is that these first figures that we meet in Act 1 are these observationist cogs in the machine. They're in the situation room looking at screens. Even the Ramos character is waiting for someone to tell him what to do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

In the second act, we're moving closer to the center of power. You know, we're meeting, you know, General Anthony Bradley. That's Tracy's character, who is the combatant commander at StratCom.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

This is cross cutting.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's a big deal because the whole room stands up for him.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. He is the leader of this space.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

He is clearly one of the most elite generals in the United States of America. The movie starts cross cutting with another character who we've heard in the first act, along with Tracy's character on a series of zooms.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

Named Jake Barrington. That's the Gabriel Basso character. He's this young bureaucrat. He's got a pregnant wife, stressed out. He's on his way to work.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. Because his boss, the head of the nsa, is getting a colonoscopy.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes, he is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He is unavailable, which is you know, a funny detail of.

[Sean Fennesee]

Sure. And it could happen.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It could totally happen. What are you going to do?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. And the thing I like about the way that that character is set up is that he's not at work when this call comes over. So what do you do if you're 37 and you work at the NSA and you have the most powerful general in the world, the head of the Department of Secretary of Defense, and the President of the United States on a zoom call, and you don't have Service, and you're 900 yards from your office.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Running in front of the White House.

[Sean Fennesee]

That was pretty clever. Pretty clever setup for the severity of this conversation, too, which is this is the only person, really, who's available who can speak to the international relations that might be informing this situation because, like, there's a lack of information, because there was no satellite pickup of where specifically this missile came from.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

Again through the first 60 minutes. I was like, this movie is really clever. And the obscuring that information in the first part, maybe this was a huge. Like, a boon to this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know, like, I was a little skeptical because I don't really like that. Now, let's see it from this angle. Perspective. And everybody always calls that Rashomon, but that's not what Rashomon is. Rashomon is people lying about what happened. This is just a different perspective. I've just seen Rashomon in so many reviews of this film.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do it to the camera, not to me, you know?

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay, I see. That's what bothers you, is when you think I'm yelling at you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's not Rashomon, you fools. Anyhow, so you've got this character who's trying to race to get into the room so that he can't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He can't get through the security at the White House, you know, and they've shown you. And they've shown you Rebecca Ferguson going through security and everything before. So they were, like, setting up the world and then peeling back little layers of it, which I like.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then he has to get on the phone with Russia, which is just like Cribbed from a West Wing episode. But that's okay. Do you remember this one?

[Sean Fennesee]

I do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Yeah. Why should we destroy ourselves 10 times over? Surely once is enough. If, you know, you know. What's up? What's the new secret social network?

[Sean Fennesee]

The Social Reckoning.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Here we go.

[Sean Fennesee]

In production right now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Ready for it at all?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. They turned a museum into the Capitol for Jan.6.

[Sean Fennesee]

I thought that I know. I saw that in Vancouver. I read that piece, too. I think that this stuff is mostly effective.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. It's like you're still on the train. You're along for the ride with it through this.

[Sean Fennesee]

I am. And I'm kind of waiting to see. Because it does feel like this character, this NSA character, has more information than we need to learn. We've already seen that the GBI does not intercept the icbm. Right. That Ramos team fails. Then we see it from this character's perspective as well. We see Tracy's characters.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do they fail or does technology fail?

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, I mean, that's an interesting data point in this movie. That's only 61% chance in testing of being successful.

[Amanda Dobbins]

A coin toss. That's what $50 billion buys us. All great points.

[Sean Fennesee]

All good stuff. This does feel like a very well researched and by all accounts, accurate representation of what would happen here. Okay, we're continuing on. As Barrington says, it's like trying to hit a bullet with a bullet.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, you forgot that he has to call Greta Lee, who has a day off and is taking her small child to Gettysburg. Metaphor alert.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. So that specifically is when the movie really starts to tip over for me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no shots. Once again, to Greta Lee, who I think is put in a bad position.

[Sean Fennesee]

No. It appears as though she is making the most out of her past lives success. You know, very fun cameo on the studio this year. She was in the film Tron Ares. I'm the last person who will ever see that film. You know, this movie. She's on screen for four minutes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's tearing it up on the morning show.

[Sean Fennesee]

Oh, good. Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's not just a mom. She is also a mom who is the DPRK expert.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And she also knows a lot about how China is using AI or testing AI to launch missiles or some shit.

[Sean Fennesee]

She was on word salad patrol in this movie where she just has to spit a lot of jargon through the other end of the phone to communicate.

[Amanda Dobbins]

To the office reenacting the battle of Gettysburg behind her.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think if you want to teach your children about the Civil War, that's great. If you want to go to a reenactment, that's great. I'm not criticizing that specifically. Putting her in that scene is really bad writing. Really bad writing, silly. It is like the most hat on a hat thing ever where it's like, let us go back to our war 200 years ago so that we can reflect on our current state of war.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it does give, like, this movie is in rooms and on screen.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's why it's there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it's why it's there to like be outside and give them something to direct. I understand it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I was like, oh, I see, I see what we're doing here.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. I, I, and this is where the movie loses me. And it's not the, it's not my most frustrated aspect of the movie, but it is the most like, da, da, da, da, da. Pointed nose again.

[Amanda Dobbins]

As a student of the West Wing, you know, like I was still, I'm, I'm on the train and I'm aware of the train tracks at that point, but I will. And I'm locating my exit.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I'm still on the train.

[Sean Fennesee]

But that's hopeful. 19 year old Amanda with her stories. That's not what we're talking about here. This is like, this is an elite filmmaker with the biggest media company in the world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But then two things, but. Okay, I know if it, but if it turned for good, you know, if it landed the third act, then I would have been okay with it. Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know what I mean? I agree.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying.

[Sean Fennesee]

Totally.

[Amanda Dobbins]

If you're locating the nearest exit and you are aware of the load bearing metaphor, but you're gonna keep going.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. I'm with you 100%. It does not land the plan.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, but before, actually, before it gets to the first thing, I think that you see in Act 3, which I only noticed again last night, I think it's before you meet the President, because the President has only been. It has only been Idris Elba's voice.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. A black screen in the YouTube boxes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's right. Because they can't, because they can't get him on like the right secure feed or whatever in time. So you have not seen him yet. And I do think before you see him, you see a guy who's like a, an elite flyer, like a, and he's somewhere in the South Pacific. And first he's surfing and then he has to get out and surf and he has to have a locker room talk. And I just listen, Kathryn Bigelow casts like the three hottest guys you've ever seen as the fighter pilots. And I was like, yo, thank you.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's so funny you say that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They're so hot and they're just like shirtless for no reason. And I was like, this is my girl.

[Sean Fennesee]

I watched this with Eileen as you watched it with Zach. And, and really, this is the Upside. After all of our movie theater conversation about Netflix and streaming movies in general, where it's like, it's Friday night.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, here we go.

[Sean Fennesee]

What are we watching? There's a good movie out this time. And she said the exact same thing. That guy in the locker room. She was like, who is that? What have we seen him in before? Look him up for me, please. And that doesn't happen very often with the movies. And I think it is exactly what you are describing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Of course it is, because he is. So he wanders in, and then the two other flyboys are quite attractive, and they're just there and they're talking about, like, taking presents home to their kid, you know, And I was just like.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes, that's mom porn. Here I am.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, thank you. So she still has an eye, you know, she's still. Patience. And I was like, okay, I'm back in.

[Sean Fennesee]

We'll talk shortly about how this movie looks and the formal choices. I do have some feelings about that. But her casting instincts are slow. The cast in this movie is mostly pretty good. Well, well, until we get to the President, which I think is really the fatal flaw of the movie in a number of direct. So we do ultimately find out that it is in fact Idris Elba, that he's only been on the black screen. I think it's because he's on a sat phone. It's not because they don't have any video.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And so is his wife, Renee Elise Goldberry, who is saving the elephants.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. She's in Africa, which. Okay, again, like, I know we're trying to get a variety of topographical experiences.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that saving the elephants is also supposed to be like some sort of metaphor of.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, it's like pointlessness of trying to preserve this world in a time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly.

[Sean Fennesee]

And trying to experience a natural world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Those elephants are real.

[Sean Fennesee]

Sure. I'm great. I'm glad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, it's better. Listen, you want to talk about CGI creatures in Netflix movies this year? I understand everyone's like, see Frankenstein in theaters.

[Sean Fennesee]

I mean, it wasn't the first lady riding on a stampede of elephants. It wasn't an action scene. So the President is just having a normal day. He's just taken a meeting. He has this in person event. Appears to be a young women's basketball camp led by WNBA star Angel Reese. And so he's got to get in the car and go. And he's got to perform the role of being president. And when that is happening, he becomes aware of this event and he is very quickly Hustled out of the event. First of all, just the whole act of going to the Angel Reese event, just lead balloon the movie. The momentum and interest in the movie just dies just like sinks because you're like, we already know what's gonna happen. There's nothing surprising about what's going to take place. Any moment where we see him like making nice with the kids and with angel, you're like, okay, well, I don't know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The very small little girl who.

[Sean Fennesee]

She made a shot. That was awesome.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's great. I was like, yeah, I was stunned by that.

[Sean Fennesee]

But this isn't TikTok. It's a fucking movie. Like we can watch 9 year olds make baskets.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I think you'll find that all movies that want to be successful now do have to have a TikTok moment, including a little girl shooting a thing.

[Sean Fennesee]

But I started feeling that like you can look down at your phone energy in Netflix movies during this part of the movie, which is not what you want an actor.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's the problem is that Idris as the president has no interest or charisma in it and is just like whining about his knees and his jump shot throughout it. And see, he's charisma less even in this moment where, you know, if you, you think of a president and like the casting of Idris and is like clearly meant to evoke Obama and is. But. And also not.

[Sean Fennesee]

But there's also. There's definitely some like George W. Bush and even a little Donald Trump in this. Sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But there is also in the Situation Room, there is a framed photograph. There's the framed photograph of Obama and Biden and everyone watching the Osama Raid.

[Sean Fennesee]

Like he takes place in our world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And so. But he's. But he doesn't have the charisma of any of the people that you just named. You know what I mean?

[Sean Fennesee]

I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

To me, like, it's so confusing, but.

[Sean Fennesee]

To me this is just a complete failure of casting. This is a 53 year old British man being asked to shoot a basketball in the movie. Not a good choice.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No. Well, it's definitely when they cut to a double, you can see it for when he actually makes the shot. They cut to a double.

[Sean Fennesee]

I didn't even notice that because he did. Then the double's form also was not great. It's a bad performance and a badly written character and it totally spiked the movie for me. In addition to the fact that I already felt like once they go back to repeating the structure again, I was like, this really Better be good. There better be something in this third act that makes this pay off. And I think it thinks it's doing that and it doesn't and we can get to that. But Idris, he's just miscast. I don't think that the movie really. I think the movie thinks it needs a star in this part instead of an actor with gravitas in this moment. And he has no gravitas. And when he's trying to do a little bit of a folksy accent thing, that doesn't really work, which is weird because his accent as Stringer Bell is so good. But this accent is kind of all over the place. And it also just the way that he shot in this series of events, it's meant to be this kind of the anguish of this man. Like a lot of tight close ups, a lot of hand on head, and I just didn't buy it at all. It really doesn't work.

[Amanda Dobbins]

As Zach said, it's a really bad Idris Elba performance also, which is very confusing. This is usually very good. Yeah. And who has a tremendous amount of charm and like pull on the screen. And I, you know, the, the characterization from the very beginning of he, you know, he calls his wife who is again away saving the elephants, and it, you see on his phone that she's labeled as the boss in his phone. And he's just, you know, tired, beleaguered, just kind of low energy.

[Sean Fennesee]

Doesn't want to put up with conversation about my mother in law. I'm just like, this is like stand up comedian hack work. Like, this is like what people think the President is talking. It's like all this post. Is it, you know? No, it is, it is. It's like a little bit of the, the Barack Obama, Michelle Obama dynamic. Right. Where he's like constantly kind of in her. The glow of her power. He's constantly being like, I'm so sorry, I'm such a loser. I'm Barack Obama.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

So there's some of that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But like he wasn't a loser. You know, that's like the thing.

[Sean Fennesee]

Of course, of course. I mean, Idris Elba is also. He's like incredibly tall and handsome. Like, he's not a loser. He's the President. I know. So. But anyway, to me, it's more about the movie just downshifting specifically to spending almost all of our time with this character as he is moving with this guy, Lieutenant Commander Robert Reeves, who is this military attache who hangs with him.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

As soon as it becomes clear that this Event is happening.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, isn't he with him at all times?

[Sean Fennesee]

He is, because he is the man holding the nuclear football. Diner man? Is that what it's called? I thought the nuclear football is usually more like a device that you push. Oh. Maybe you know that that's like the button. But it could be that as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know.

[Sean Fennesee]

She's holding the guidebook.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It seems like that's not protocol. Like, the protocol is a bunch of cards that Idris Elba is, as the president is carrying with some twenties and a rubber band, which is a detail I liked.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. That's like EV drivers with their cards.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Remember when after, like, three years of having a money clip, you were like, now my spine is forever altered and.

[Sean Fennesee]

Isabel, sitting on your wallet. Oh, do not sit on your wallet.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, is that what it was?

[Sean Fennesee]

Put your wallet in your front pocket and so.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then you switch to a money clip?

[Sean Fennesee]

No. Well, I have. So I have sort of, you know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Oh, you have one of. That's what Zach has, too. Yeah, but I remember one. It was like the day that Zach came home and was like, did you know that alcohol has calories? And one day you came home and you. One day you came to work and you're like, did you know that if you sit on your wallet, your spine is forever altered?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. I have some questions about the act of being a chiropractor, but that was one tip from my chiropractor that was very helpful. As soon as they are traveling in the car, and then eventually in. Is it a helicopter or an airplane? No, it's an airplane.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I think it was a helicopter. But it is, like, a very stable.

[Sean Fennesee]

No, it's a plane. It's a plane. I'm pretty sure they're on a small plane.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, yeah, you're right.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, they're on a small plane.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. No, you're right now, because you see them jogging, and Idris has to. The Secret Service guy has to keep physical contact with him until he's on the plane. But then I did notice the plane itself is just very clearly a set and very, very stationary. They really, really.

[Sean Fennesee]

This is part of it, too, where it's like this whole movie that has been building up to this sense of finality. Just start. The air starts going out of the balloon, and I'm like, is the air gonna go out of the balloon all the way before this movie even ends? We do see that this is what the president would have to do. He would have to try to gather all this information. Maybe Over a phone call about what we know about the incidents thus far, what the percentages are. He's going to hear strongly worded cases from military leaders, from diplomats and bureaucrats who are attempting to avoid massive destruction. He's going to have to try to understand a world that maybe he hasn't spent a lot of time thinking about, like, what are really the motivations of North Korea right now or China or Moscow.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

And then say, counter strike, do nothing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, well, and so. And he and Jared Harris, who played the Secretary of Defense, which. Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Another kind of nightmarish performance, in my opinion. Just like we should not be casting English actors.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, this is the thing. In these roles, Rebecca Ferguson and Jared.

[Sean Fennesee]

Harris, like, what are we, you know, it's very dumb.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's really like we have great American actors. See Tracy Letts.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. Rebecca Ferguson, her accent is bad, but her performance is good. She's the everything. She. Well, she kind of usually struggles with this. Honestly, I'm never like, well, she's from Kansas. Like, you never think that she has.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like the Mark Ronson transatlantic thing going on, you know, but so he and Jared Harris, like have a conversation as president and Secretary of Defense where they're like, is this what, like, what are we supposed to do? We only got one briefing about this. I got another briefing about, you know, this, what to do when the Supreme Court justice dies and does he want to cry? I thought that was like decent, you know, writing. Again, the casting didn't make a ton of sense.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, I'm just pulled out of the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Movie because the performances, but with the writing itself, I was like, I get what you're trying to put across here.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think the problem too though, is that the point of the movie is clear by the end of the second act and it's kind of done what it's supposed to do and then it doesn't really know where to go. Or it has the idea of what it wants to do, but it can't really accomplish the intensity that it necessitates to make it feel impactful, in my opinion. This is how I felt watching the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

So we follow through. We've seen earlier in the film that Moses Ingram's character, who works at fema, has been identified as a de. A designated evacuee, and that she gets to get on a bus and go to Raven Rock, which is a nuclear safe facility.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Self sufficient nuclear facility.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. In Pennsylvania. And we see that other characters from the film are headed in that direction and all people are kind of converging on that. And that's something we've seen. There's a long history of nuclear scare movies in even just in American movie history and British movie history. Like, there's tons of great ones. People point to failsafe over and over again. The Cindy Lumet film, which I think is way superior to this movie. Dr. Strangelove is one of these movies. The British film Threads is one of these movies. On the beach, the Stanley Kramer movie. There's a whole long history of movies that are about this thing. So, like, we have an awareness of what this is, where they're headed. But before the President makes his decision on the plane, we see this image of everyone. These buses pulling towards the gate that is leading to Raven Rock. And then everyone pulling in.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And then we see Anthony Ramos fall to his knees outside of Fort Greely.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And then the movie ends, and then that's it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And this is one of the most, like, kick the full bucket of paint into the street movie like, endings to a movie I've ever seen where I'm just like, what the fuck? And I know it. I know what it thinks it did.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

I get that. It's like, and now we must all live with the consequences of this terrible predicament that we find ourselves in. War. Well, there's no good answer, and there's no good answer. Yeah. I understand that. I'm certainly not for the continued proliferation of nuclear arms. I don't really believe in violence at all.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

But this is a movie. This is not a guidebook to the procedures in the event of a nuclear attack. Complete your film.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Say something other than like, gosh, this sucks.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Am I crazy?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Sean Fennesee]

I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It does feel like many people felt that way. I sort of got it. I was like, okay, there. There are no good endings. I agree with you. I wish that the Idris stuff and the stuff in the plane and when he's presented with the guidebook and the, you know, attache is like. You know, I call them rare, medium, and well done. I wish that that were performed at a higher level, and I wish that that hit, because if you get to it, then the essential nature of those scenes is, like, it all comes down to one guy, like, on a plane in three minutes with, like, a diner menu in front of them. And also think about the guy in question, like, right now, who's making those decisions. Like, it's not good. And it should be a lot scarier and just a lot more emotionally frustrating than it is because of who's in It. But I don't know. The raven rock of it all, that being the last image. And then I don't know what Anthony Ramos is doing in this movie. Respectfully. That's a really, really great theater star who has been sort of. Who has stuck out of every single film that he's.

[Sean Fennesee]

Except for Rise of the Beast, Sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I guess he's kicked ass in.

[Sean Fennesee]

The Beast War movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So the last two shots, I can't defend it any other way. The sense that there are no good options, I think it didn't bug me as much as it seems to have bugged you.

[Adam Naiman]

Well.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think that the Ramos image is meant to be kind of in dialogue or kind of a recurrence of maybe that final image of Jessica Chastain at the end of0Dark30, right. Where she's like, she's on the helicopter and she's just kind of like, the weight of the world is on my shoulders and what does the future hold? This is disastrous. Right. There is something in the cinema of Catherine Bigelow in the last 10, 12 years that is kind of like these giant systems have been built over time and they're starting to calcify. And when we're confronted with something that is really scary, like in the event of the attack on 911 or, you know, in the Hurt Locker, like trying to disarm IEDs, or if an actual nuclear attack, this is the absolute pinnacle.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

Of what she could be addressing. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which I've since googled while doing this podcast. And so DEFCON 1 is reserved for us is under nuclear attack.

[Sean Fennesee]

Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did you know that?

[Sean Fennesee]

I think I ascertained that information.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I think this was an issue in Mission Impossible, the Final Reckoning, where it took like a very long time for them to get to DEFCON 1. Even though, I mean, I did think a lot about Mission Impossible, the Final Reckoning.

[Sean Fennesee]

Because the alternative I've only seen.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, the alternative to there is no answer is Tom Cruise has to single handedly, like, you know, take the entire missile system offline and take everyone's missiles back one by one. You know, I wouldn't say that movies.

[Sean Fennesee]

But Hayley Atwell has to switch a key.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. But, you know, it is like they're in the room and Angela Bassett, who's the President, is like, no, no, no, I guess we're gonna have to bomb everyone. And there's always a room full of people being like, you have to bomb everyone until Tom Cruise shows up. So I don't.

[Sean Fennesee]

That's a good call.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I Don't know which one I thought was more plausible. You know what I mean? I don't know which was more cinematically effective.

[Sean Fennesee]

They did need Hayley Atwell to, like, point that drive at the ICBM in this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's just, like, a very quick thing. Yeah. And then she's just in Trafalgar Square, you know, carrying it around.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'm gonna rewatch Final Reckoning. I had a better time with that movie. Ultimately, even though that movie is also deeply foggy. Just the biplane sequence is so much better than anything in the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Part of that movie is the last 30 minutes, you know.

[Sean Fennesee]

Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So you leave on, like, oh, maybe.

[Sean Fennesee]

If they just ended with Ethan Hunt on a biplane in House of Dynamite.

[Amanda Dobbins]

If we just put them together, we just saved a cinema.

[Sean Fennesee]

It could work.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. There we.

[Sean Fennesee]

I found this very, very frustrating. Now, the report out of the New York Film Festival was that journalists were openly laughing at the ending of this movie. That there were, like, snickers and, like, seriously, bro. Like, that was the energy at the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

End of it, which.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'm obviously being a little performative here on the show. I wasn't, like, offended at its conclusion. I was just like, what a wet fart. Like, what a weird decision. I don't know if it's. I don't think it's cowardly. I just think it's. It's a miscalculation as to what the film is trying to accomplish, you know, that, like, it made its point kind of 14 minutes in and we got it. And it didn't really further that point to any degree. That moved me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And I'm only being as specific about this. Cause it's like, I really respect this filmmaker. Like, I really think she's incredible.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. But if you go back and look at the filmmaking versus the politics of all of the movies that we really admire, it's not like the. Like, the political, theoretical answers are there.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. You know, so I would even be willing to forgive that in the same way that I am willing to forgive it in Zero Dark Thirty, which is a film that, like, politically just seems really incoherent and inconsistent and untrue in some ways. But is, I think, like, a ravishing movie. Like a thrilling movie and visually, like, so accomplished. Amazing performances. This movie, she, like, changed some stuff. She used to make a very kind of grand, poetic style of cinema, you know, especially the early movies like Near Dark and Point Break. Those movies are gorgeous.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And over time, she's reduced it, right? To, like, I think, maybe more Representative of the modern visual condition where, like, the camera is a little shakier. It's a little bit more, like, invasive.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, this is almost like documentary. Like Fly on the wall.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which is, I think, trying to adapt both to the material and the fact that it is people on screens and rooms. And so it does. It moves through a lot of people. And the first 10 minutes, you're like, oh, okay, we're assembling the cast of characters, and you're giving me, like, two pieces of expositional biography about each person. But at some point in that first 30, 60 minutes, it's, like, really flowing together. Yeah. And you're like, oh, you have, like. You've established this whole world. I know where I am. I do feel like I'm in these rooms. And you are making screens and. And. And dialogue exciting, but not. Not in a Point Break way. Like, I'll take you.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's a different style.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They're not, like, showing torture on screen. So, you know, there's. There's some. There's some issues with that.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, yeah. No, I. Her movies are not perfect. I'm not trying to suggest that this movie is edited by Kirk Baxter, who is David Fincher's longtime editor, is one of the greatest living editors. Academy Award winner. And I totally agree with you that this. A movie like this, in less gifted hands would be very rough. Would feel much, I think, much more, quote, unquote, Netflix, you know, where it just kind of just feels like an episode of the Night Agent. It doesn't feel like something with some grandeur to it. But, you know, in recent years, like, she's really interested in, like, the machine of power. Right. Like the CIA, police force, the military. And I think it's. It's kind of dulled the movies a little bit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know, Detroit was obviously also a misfire.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And I don't. I. I don't. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Are we gonna get another Kathryn Bigelow movie? You know, like, I. It took a long time to get this one going.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And she's in her 70s.

[Sean Fennesee]

She's in her 70s, which. I mean, this movie is vital. It's not that it's not vital. Like, it definitely feels like it is made with a real energy, but I just wish this wasn't the material that she took on. So last time we talked about this, we had it in Best Picture.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And it's gotten pretty mixed reviews now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's right.

[Sean Fennesee]

I do think that there is a strong contingent in the academy that still just worships her and thinks she's really great.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

Where are you at on Best Picture at this point?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it does seem like it's dropped out. A lot of critics had a lot of fun taking this one to the woodshed, which I like. I. That's. Everyone's right. You know, who doesn't love a good fan?

[Sean Fennesee]

You were very generous in letting me kind of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no, no, I wasn't. It's fine if you don't like it. There are plenty of movies that I don't like.

[Sean Fennesee]

I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I still am so baffled by the Frankenstein reevaluation, and I bought a.

[Sean Fennesee]

Ticket to go see it again at the Egyptian this week. Okay. Because I have to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess so. Yeah. But to me, in every respect, this is superior. But Del Toro has a huge contingent in the academy and I guess, you know, people like that shit and I guess they don't care about CGI wolves.

[Sean Fennesee]

So I think there's been a bump in that kind of movie being more. Even more accepted than this kind of movie. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And. But it just. In terms of. I think Netflix only gets so many spots, and it seems like Frankenstein is taking the spot, even though out of the festivals, the first two festivals, Venice and Telluride, we would not have said that.

[Sean Fennesee]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Sean Fennesee]

On Friday, we'll do the full analysis of the four Netflix movies because Train Dreams re premiered at AFI last night and raised out of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I'm going next week.

[Sean Fennesee]

I mean, they have four.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think it was yesterday afternoon, which is why I couldn't go. Or there was a screening.

[Sean Fennesee]

The screening was yesterday afternoon.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

So yeah, they've got four movies. And it does feel like. It does feel like it's on the outside looking in right now. It does feel like Frankenstein is in front of it. I think there's gonna be a J. Kelly upswing, especially because it's a movie that's gonna play well with the Academy and Train Dreams. You can scoff at the I'm going to see it. Natural World stuff. I'm going to see it is really fine.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There's another Natural World movie that I'm more annoyed with.

[Sean Fennesee]

So we can talk about that in November. We can seeing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You knew which one I was talking about. Listen, relax, you know, enough Moss.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think that we will have a very similar con in reverse about that movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know, where it's like I see the flaws but I'm ultimately okay with it, whereas you maybe are not. But let's not talk around it any longer, okay? Any chance editing or sound get in at the Oscars here? Kind of tough to get editing without a best Picture nomination.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It seems like it'll be crowded out.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Only five noms.

[Sean Fennesee]

The sound designers, especially Paul NJ Otison, three time winner for two Bigelow films. So very hallowed figure in that world. I don't know. It's possible. Does it sound good? It seemed pretty good. It seemed good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the score as you have here, I thought was great.

[Sean Fennesee]

It is very good. So it's Volker Bertleman, who was the composer on All Quiet on the Western Front. And also the upcoming Ballad of a Small Player, which I actually don't have on the schedule right now because I don't really know if I want to spend an hour talking about it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I haven't seen it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay, listeners, if you'd like to hear a long conversation about Ballad of a Small Player.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We'll see it. We could have a small conversation. I seen.

[Sean Fennesee]

I saw it. I didn't like it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. But listen, you know, Colin Farrell forever. If I saw a big, bold, beautiful journey and had things to. And found things to say about that, I can see this.

[Sean Fennesee]

I hear you. I hear you. The best score. Race is insane.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's incredibly competitive this year. So here's the lineup. You got Johnny Greenwood for one battle after another. Did you see Thomas Bangalter from Daft Punk playing that in a DJ set in Europe this weekend?

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's awesome.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. The opening song from One battle after another. Crazy stuff. And then bled into the Revolution Will Not Be Televised. Anyway, very cool. Ludwig Goranson for Sinners.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Where in Europe?

[Sean Fennesee]

I assume Paris.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I know. I'm just like, that's. I need to.

[Sean Fennesee]

It was Bergain on Saturday night at.

[Amanda Dobbins]

4:00Am we need to do that in LA. And that's like. That's the kind of fyc I want to go to. You know what I'm saying?

[Sean Fennesee]

Maybe you just get out in front of that. That's a good idea.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Invite me. You know, like, I will be on the floor.

[Sean Fennesee]

I mean, it was. It's. There's a lot of like, solemn head down during the beginning of it because it's that like, dramatic. Okay, so Sinners. Alexander Desplat for Frankenstein.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Gonna have to consider that. Max Richter for Hamnet. That. And even though he reuses a piece of material, it is eligible.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Jerskin Fendrix for Begonia, which I think is really good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Nick Britell for Jake Kelly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

Which is also very good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We love Nick Patel.

[Sean Fennesee]

Arguably, the best part of Marty Supreme Non Timothy Division is the score. Dan Lopatin from 100 Tricks Point. Never.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's true. I mean, it's amazing.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's incredible. It's a huge part of the film. Bryce Desner from Train Dreams. Your guy from the National A band. I don't care for Daniel Blumberg, who just won last year for the Testament of Anne Lee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was not aware that one of the Destners did the square for Tree. I can't. You didn't stop telling me things till I see the movie.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I have to go in with an open heart.

[Sean Fennesee]

What about HANS Zimmer for F1?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't remember.

[Sean Fennesee]

The music is F1 in the best Picture.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay. I want to see F1 again.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, it will be on Apple in.

[Sean Fennesee]

December and the fireworks go off Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, that was fun.

[Sean Fennesee]

That was good. Yeah, I enjoyed that. Wicked for good. Best score.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Stephen Schwartz and John Powell.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

That's a lot of contenders. Okay, you're just nodding at me now. No, it's that part of the podcast.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You're just getting me to talk about Wicked for good and other. And, and the national.

[Sean Fennesee]

So what's Bigelow's best movie, in your opinion?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Point Break.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, I think that's. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, that's okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Now here's the hard part. Yeah. What's her second best movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Hurt Locker.

[Sean Fennesee]

I would, I would probably rather watch Zero Dark Thirty over Hurt Locker. Hurt Locker loses some of its appeal if you've seen it before, to me, I guess so.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But, but, but it's first time. The, like, the achievement of what it makes you feel is like a pretty singular piece of art. Zero Dark Thirty, you know. Yeah. Incredible cinematic, whatever. But if you're, you know, if, if you have some queasiness or some dissatisfaction with the politics of House of Dynamite, then I, you know, that isn't ultimately.

[Sean Fennesee]

That wasn't ultimately my problem with the movie. I think it was more just like an absolute flaw in the design of the story as opposed to, like, feeling unhappy about the. What it was trying to communicate poetically about the events. But I hear what you're saying. I mean, I'm not as hung up on that in Zero Dark Thirty, but there are some people for whom that's a movie they will never watch again.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I, I think that most of the point is for it to be upsetting. But, you know, is it the entire point or is it also. Is some of. And, and what is. How are you supposed to feel about, like, look at this cinematic achievement of, of me depicting torture.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, I think it's more so that, like, the suggestion that the torture, like, worked and was justified in some ways, you know, it's probably a movie that is worth a revisit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I think it's incredibly well made.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. Yeah. It came out at that time when Annapurna was going strong and it felt like, you know, David Ellison is now kind of the ascendant king of Hollywood. Taylor Sheridan, news notwithstanding. And this was when Megan Ellison was just Richard Linklater, you get one. Spike Jonze, you get one. Paul Thomas Anderson, you get one. Kathryn Bigelow, you get one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was fun.

[Sean Fennesee]

That was a great time in the movies. A really special time to be a fan of movies. So maybe I have a little bit of rose colored glasses around that I would say near Dark and Strange Days are pretty near the top for me. Okay, that's a great vampire movie and a great sci fi future movie. Yeah, she's got a few duds. Weight of water. K19. These are not great. Blue Steel's strong crime thriller. Really good Jamie Lee Curtis performance before Jamie Lee Curtis went. Jamie Lee Curtis.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Then we're all still living in it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, we are. And the loveless is Ellen McKay coming.

[Amanda Dobbins]

To you in December.

[Sean Fennesee]

Man, listen, we gotta make that episode a James L. Brooks episode.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We're going to and we're not. Again, we're getting ahead of ourselves. We can appreciate what we appreciate and enjoy what we enjoy in this life.

[Sean Fennesee]

Will you be able to watch every single episode of the Simpsons before the Ellen McKay episode? Because it's pretty important for the Jim Brooks conversation. Jim Brooks has made some good movies that I look forward to discussing. Okay, any closing thoughts before we bring in Adam Naiman?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I thought this was a fair discussion.

[Sean Fennesee]

I completely agree.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You feel heard.

[Sean Fennesee]

I absolutely feel heard in this discussion.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What we need more of is is men being hurt.

[Sean Fennesee]

So frankly, I agree. Would you say you're Jake Barrington in this discussion? No, you're Greta Lee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm just like, with my kid at Gettysburg and being like, sorry, it's my dad.

[Sean Fennesee]

Good luck.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Guys, here's what I know.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'm getting on a bus. Okay, let's bring in Adam Naming Foreign is here. The mean pod guy, our beloved critic, cinema visionary, here to talk about. Well, is there anything you want to talk about before we get into Kelly Reichardt's new film, the Mastermind?

[Adam Naiman]

I hope the Blue Jays win tonight.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'm rooting for you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, interesting.

[Adam Naiman]

You're rooting for me. Yeah, that's been, you know, that's been an interesting thing to watch happening in Toronto. The bandwagon really starts to sag, you know, like by about the alcs.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'll jump off if that's what you're saying.

[Adam Naiman]

Sorry.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'll jump off if that's. If you have a problem with me.

[Adam Naiman]

I don't want anyone to jump off, but, you know, we had a lot of success with this team 30 years ago. It's like, it's not. It's like it's not quite the first rodeo for some of us. Like, I highly recommend being 12 when your team wins the World Series.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

Because you don't worry.

[Amanda Dobbins]

My husband, who grew up in Philadelphia, has already invoked this World Series multiple times.

[Adam Naiman]

Oh, the one that we won.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, exactly. And that's why our household is a Dodgers household, despite what the Dodgers did to the Phillies.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah. So I tried to get my kids interested. I showed my 9 year old Leah the Springer home run and her entire response was cool. Someone in the audience caught it. That was it. So I got completely. No sold on that. We can try again tonight.

[Sean Fennesee]

Can we pivot to calling the crowds at sporting events? The audience. Yeah, that sounds like a really good audience.

[Adam Naiman]

Caught it. She's like, what does that. I'm like, nothing. There's 40,000 people there. But it was a cool moment.

[Sean Fennesee]

That was a fabulous home run.

[Adam Naiman]

It was great. But I think other than that, no, I mean, what else could take precedence over talking about Kelly Reichardt, which I'm very happy to be doing.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, it's a sensation. It's actually literally in the top 10 in the box office in the United States of America this weekend. Wonderful news. Probably the last time that will be true for Kelly until she makes the Thanos prequel film that I know she's been working on for some time. Multi time guest of this show. I know certainly one of Adam's favorite filmmakers as well. Absolutely. I had a chance to see the Mastermind at Telluride. You saw it last week, I saw.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It this week in theaters with a pretty full house. One on a Friday.

[Sean Fennesee]

How exciting. This movie stars Josh o', Connor, Alana Heim, Hope Davis, John Magaro, Gabbie Hoffman, Bill Camp. It's a fairly simple movie. Or is it? It's about a guy who is a bit dissatisfied with his life in 1970 in Framingham, Massachusetts and decides to become an art thief. And he struggles at being an art thief. And that is more or less the framework of this story. So, Adam, I'll start with you as our expert here. What did you make of the Mastermind?

[Adam Naiman]

I mean, Kelly Rykard's very interested in characters who, whether they should be or not, whether they know why they are or not. There's a certain dissatisfaction. And often that dissatisfaction is tied to some sense of, you know, disillusionment about. About their immediate surroundings or their life choices or the country. And she's often quite sympathetic to that disillusionment. You know, these characters who feel that things have passed them by, they didn't grab on certain opportunities. They want more. They want to embody their political ideals. And this guy is sort the Josh o' Connor character, he's cut from that mold, but he's also a very different sort of protagonist for her because he really is a. The title of the film is in context, sort of ironic. And I think that this is a sticking point for some friends of mine who like Reichardt a lot. They find this film to be somewhat judgmental. I mean, I would say my synonym for judgmental was. It's very funny.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

And it's. And it. It diagnoses a very, I think, think, you know, a very kind of male vanity and narcissism and, and, and, and. And. And solipsism. The idea that you are smarter than other people, you appreciate art more than they do, you can flout rules. And I mean, he has all these things you mentioned that he wants to be an art thief. I mean, one plot detail that I really want to talk about is in this small community where he thinks he's smarter than everybody and has better taste and went to art school. You know, his dad's a judge, so there's this sort of insulation too, where he's like, well, how much trouble can I really get in? And I like the way that the movie answers that question by saying a lot of trouble. And the consequences that ripple out to the other people in his life are observed quite devastatingly, I think.

[Sean Fennesee]

What did you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I loved it. I think Josh o' Connor is a pretty magical screen presence, and I have for some time now. And it is really exciting to watch different directors who also have their own interests and styles, kind of play with the Josh o' Connor of it all and really use it. And so to Adam's point, this guy is a loser. And he does a lot of things that you really don't want him to do. And it, like in a snowballing sort of way. And because it's Josh o', Connor, the movie is playing with how much you're relating to this person versus judging this person, versus rooting for this person, versus hoping that this person will figure it out. It was a really. It was an interesting experience in watching a movie and trying to figure out how I was supposed to feel about the protagonist. I thought it was really like speaking to the. To the role of an audience, to quote Leah in a. In a. In a fascinating way. Um, and he's great. He's magical.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah, The. The moment where I really locked in is there's. I mean, there's this long search at the beginning where he's like, casing the joint, you know, and you're sort of wondering, I mean, what kind of plan does this guy have in mind? And he. You know, there's all these little hints that are dropped that he's educated. You know, he went to art school. He has an appreciation for the work of this real artist, Arthur Dove. And I think the moment where I first started really laughing was he's handing out sketch. He's handing out photos to his confederates of what they're supposed to steal. And it's almost more like an art seminar than a plan. Like, they're looking at these things.

[Sean Fennesee]

The.

[Adam Naiman]

The question of value starts coming up. It's like, so is this about the paintings being worth something? Is it about them being good? Is it because he thinks that he's the only one who can really appreciate them? Like, there's this entwined sense of value, I think, in his plan. But then when you juxtapose that with what his plan actually is, I won't spoil it for anybody who hasn't seen the movie, but that cut is like something out of a Simpsons episode where you see what he's actually spent all this time building up to. This mastermind. It's very funny how mediocre the plan is.

[Sean Fennesee]

I chose to read the movie with two very pointed things. I don't know if either of these things are true, but these are the sensations I thought of. One, Reichert's last movie was Showing up, which I think all three of us loved, but is a movie with very little incident. It is very much a portrait of a person at a stage in their life in which the stakes feel relatively low. And people who didn't like the movie criticized it for not having a lot of action. So this movie feels, in a way, to me, like Kelly Reichardt saying, like, you think nothing happens in my movies? What if I have something pretty dramatic happen? But it is one of the most incompetent portrayals of a classical movie incident that has ever been put on screen. And then the second half of the film is this, like, rolling, searching journey of this person who kind of failed at what they were attempting to do and has really no recourse, like, is lost in society, and there's no way things will work out for this guy in the aftermath of what he has done, which I find to be, like, a fascinating choice. And the thing that I thought of a lot was that this is basically happening concurrent to Watergate, and that it's like a representation of that, you know, male solipsism that Adam was underlining. And the fact that guys kind of can talk themselves into any situation, and then they find themselves completely incapable of managing when their own ego and bad ideas drives them to a kind of destruction. In this case, it's just like A dad in Massachusetts who is not a good father and not a good husband.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's not a good husband. Father. He's okay. But to the Watergate point, it is also very specifically in the film, situated in the context of the American. Like the Vietnam War and American involvement in the Vietnam War. Speaking of people without a plan and doing things that they should not be doing. And. And, you know, Kelly Reichert is an American filmmaker who deals with American limitations, to put it politely, in pretty much all of her movies. And, like, in some ways, I was. I. I was taken aback by how direct the. The metaphor and the comp was in the context of the movie.

[Adam Naiman]

Well, she's always interested in solidarity. Sometimes the solidarity is fraying. Right. Sometimes it's like old Joy was sort of like a kind of companion to the Big Chill. I'd never compare it to the Big Chill, because I hate the Big Chill. But it has some of the same elements that that movie has, like, what are your common values after you spend your. Your, you know, a certain part of your life as part of a counterculture. Night Moves is literally about activism and about the way that paranoia sort of overtakes this group, this group of people who decide to go and do something that very similar to the Mastermind in a different way, has these consequences. Here we see a guy who has friends who seem to have these values, and what his friends seem to recognize about him is he doesn't really have them. You know, there's a moment where he goes and stays with this couple, wonderfully played in the film by Magaro and Gabby Hoffman, you know, who he went to art school with. And they kind of talk to him like, well, were you really part of our crowd? You kind of were. Like, they seem to walk the walk, talk the talk, have certain values, and he's just sort of there. And so not only do we see a guy who's lost and doesn't fit in the things that might take him in the parts of that community or that society that might have some sympathy for him, he's not interested in them. He's so arrogant. And there's all of these moments where you see the glances that he's stealing. Different kinds of people at different phases in life. It just seems to be reflecting his own awful choices Back at him. Like, I love what. He's sitting on the bus, bus, and he sees the. The guy about to ship out, probably to Vietnam, or someone dressed like a sailor with his wife and kid. And then when he wakes up, the dad's gone. You know, and it's this perfect little mirror of his own choice. Except what's he shipping out for? He hasn't chosen any path of resistance or rebellion. He's not a patriot. He's not in anything. He's just a. He's a deserter, basically. A domestic deserter. And he doesn't even have the paintings to show for it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, it's kind of chilling and kind of hilarious. I found the ending to be. We were just talking about A House of Dynamite, Adam, which I know you didn't care for as well. I was not a big fan, but the air out of the balloon at the end of this movie I found to be very effective. I don't want to spoil it for anybody who hasn't seen it, but there is something very intentional and to your point, a little on the nose about the way that this movie ends in a way that I didn't totally realize it was attempting to do. But. But she does something by just holding the frame at the end of the movie for an extended period of time. I remember it vividly even though I saw this movie two months ago. And makes you sit in the decision that she's made about the story that she's just told that is very subtle but very sophisticated and about. There's a little bit about the utter pointlessness of life, but it's more about the utter pointlessness of this person's life and the way that this self delusion has led him to this place and in this country. If you live that way, this can happen to you as well. That without this kind of purpose and only being driven by your own vainglorious perception of your own intelligence, you can get stuck.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I would like it on the record that I think that this film is better than House of Dynamite. Just to clarify, this is a better movie and a better movie about America and the American condition.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, I agree with that. It's interesting. This is also the only. This is the first film since river of Grass that she wrote by herself, that she wrote without John Raymond, who is her longtime kind of co writing partner. What do you make of that, Adam?

[Adam Naiman]

I mean, I think it's interesting. I mean, I think the. The other one is Certain Women just because it's adapted from a different writer's work. So it is. It's not solely her, but I mean that was a different novelist. I think it is interesting. I think that it has something in common with river of Grass as well, which is that again, she. That movie was always called a road movie without the Road, you know, so she's interested in those road movie tropes.

[Sean Fennesee]

Tropes.

[Adam Naiman]

Or those outcast loner tropes. Or maybe because I just saw the Bruce Springsteen movie. I've been thinking about Badlands mostly to not have to think about the Springsteen movie. But, you know, Badlands was a big influence on river of Grass as well. And the idea of kind of like low stakes Badlands or like Badlands about people who don't really have blood on their hands, it's a funny way to deal with it because it deflates it. But it takes a lot of the mythology and the grandeur out of it as well. And I thought that there's been some good writing on the Mastermind. I tried to write about it when I did as well. It's like a 70s movie where that grandeur isn't there. Like all the things about Josh o' Connor that Amanda's talking about. I mean, he's so handsome, he's so appealing. You can sort of see him as this kind of rakish, clever character. It's just then he's just not in an actual 70s movie. He's in a movie set in the 70s, but he's in a movie where, like, the reality doesn't play ball with that romanticized self image. And I think it's interesting for Reichert, as her career has gone on, she's always had elements of funny, she's always had elements of bitter, she's always had elements of social critique, but she's not always the same. I thought Showing up was very tender because it was about what it is to be an artist, and that that's very challenging. There's a lack of appreciation. There's certainly a lack of compensation. I know it made headlines when Showing up came out, when Michelle Williams let it slip. You know, Kelly Reicher teaches at Bard for the Health Insurance, which is not a joke. And also, you know, her students are lucky to have her. She's one of the great American filmmakers and she's teaching them. And even though Showing up had a lot of exasperation and like, you know, satire about faculty politics and some of the characters were obnoxious, I thought it was very sympathetic to the idea of art for art's sake. This is a movie about an appreciator. You know, they say, you know, like, those who can't do, teach. I don't believe in that. But like, those who can't do, steal. You know, and the way that this is a guy who went to school, and again, he thinks he has better taste than his parents. He thinks he really has a connection to this guy's work. Like, he wants the money, but I think he also kind of wants the value. I mean, Kelly has nothing to complain about about film critics, and I don't really think that she is. But for her to follow up a movie about. About artists with someone who isn't even an artist and who's sort of trying to profit from their work in a way that's, you know, again, self aggrandizing and off and, you know, off board, that's not coincidental to me. Nor is the fact that it's a kind of judgmental movie, because I think this is a type. If all these guys looked like Josh o', Connor, we'd be in big trouble. Most of them don't. But we know this guy, you know, like, we know this kind of guy. And seeing that come up and, you know, you know, come to him the way it does. It's schadenfreude, but it's satisfying.

[Sean Fennesee]

I wanted to talk about o' Connor a little bit more, actually. So over the weekend I got a chance to see Rebuilding, which is a movie that is coming out next week that o' Connor was in, that debuted at Sundance, which is about a rancher in Colorado whose home is burned to the ground during a devastating fire. And then the aftermath of that, and on the surface, it sounds like a pretty traditional Sundance drama, and in some ways it is. I thought it was a very beautiful movie, though, and o' Connor is amazing in it, and it is a very different performance from this movie where his kind of charm and wiles are meant to be foregrounded. And that's a very reserved performance. And then in a month, he's in Wake Up Deadman, the new Knives out movie where he plays a priest who's kind of at war with the idea of faith in his clergy, or at least the community that surrounds his church. And now the last few years of him as an actor. And I liked what you were saying. How so? Each director is kind of looking at what he represents as a performer and then pumping something into it, refracting what they think he is. So. So La Chimera Challengers Rebuilding the history of sound the Mastermind and now Wake Up Deadman is like a very interesting. Shows how robust his taste is, shows what a flexible, dynamic actor he is, shows that he can be funny, shows that he can be really restrained and quite sad, shows that he can be romantic, shows that he can be the fool that he can Be the smartest guy in the room. This is very rare to get a leading man that can do all this stuff. He's not a huge box office sensation or anything like that. But I now really anticipate him appearing in a movie. And it does feel like it happened all of a sudden. I also was not. Did not watch the Crown.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I know, yeah, you missed the Crown.

[Sean Fennesee]

I know you've been there for that. But I'm just very excited. He's. Now he's 35 years old. He's kind of right in the heart of when this sort of thing is supposed to take off. Even 10 years ago, if you look at him in movies, I'm like, that guy's too young now. He looks like a man. He looks like he has lived a little bit. And I'm very excited about the future of his career. Career.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But he's pretty singular still, which is what is exciting about it. Like, all of the filmmakers are interpreting, you know, what Josh o' Connor is. But he does also bring like a. He doesn't speak very much in all of those movies, pretty much.

[Sean Fennesee]

And he's pretty chatty in Challengers.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I mean, I guess so. But not as much as the other. Not as much as art, you know.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, I think they're about the same.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I guess they're not really chatting when they're having sex or he doesn't want to. Yeah. But he does have really interesting taste. And he is very clearly also. He's bringing, like, his half of the equation to all the filmmakers in a way that's very cool and feels, you know, like this movie sort of a 70s throwback style of, like, he's very handsome, but he's like. He's not bulked up like a superhero. Like, he's. He's in a lot of, like, fashion campaigns. But he always looks a little scruffy in this movie. You know, he's.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's interesting. I'm a huge fan.

[Sean Fennesee]

Who.

[Adam Naiman]

Who would have thought you could become a sex symbol after playing Prince Charles? I mean, that's like, the degree of difficulty there is. But, you know, you mentioned what these directors are doing with him. He's bringing something very good to Kelly Reichardt, too, which is this kind of upwardly mobile visibility, which I think is. Also reflects well on him because he wants to seek out and work with good filmmaker. I mean, Alisa Rohrwacher is another example in La Chimera. I mean, he clearly wants to work with good directors. And this has been the grace of Reichert's career, you know, Old Joy I saw in 2005. That's a fantastic movie where the big star in it is Will Oldham. That's not a put down of Will Oldham.

[Sean Fennesee]

Will Oldham is a huge star in my house, Adam.

[Adam Naiman]

Will Oldham is wonderful. But I mean that's the kind of movie that she was making with river and Grass and Old Joy. Michelle Williams signing on to do Wendy and Lucy and beginning. Not just a kind of opportunistic thing of like here's someone who's a race and here's an indie director. I mean that's a wonderful artistic partnership that I think has defined, you know, Williams career as much as Reichardt's. So she is a filmmaker who has often majorly talented youngish actors who want to work with her. Jesse Eisenberg was the same thing when he did Night Moves. Kristen Stewart obviously in certain Women. So o' Connor fits that mold of her working with actors who can put a little bit of light and media coverage kind of on her work. Work. And they reward each other by working so well, you know, by, by working so well together. And he's been all in on the promotion of this movie, which is nice to see especially since, you know the big Netflix red carpet Wake Up Dead man, which he's really good in as well, is you know, sitting right there for him for all the magazine pieces. But I've read at least 10, 15 interviews he's done about the mastermind. That's just good star behavior. Behavior.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's very unusual for her to have a tall, handsome leading man in one of her movies too. That is the. One of the few things.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's that tall.

[Sean Fennesee]

He's taller than John Magaro. Sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I do, but I do probably.

[Sean Fennesee]

My favorite actor working right now, really handsome.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But there is like a little bit like of a, like a baby bird that I have to take care of. Quality to him in every single. Well, but I think that's how a lot of people see him and they're using that, that in this movie.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, yeah. I think it, it, it aids her well because she can really bounce off of her perception of guys like that. You know, like you can really feel her reading like oh, this guy thinks he's hot shit. Which is not a kind of character that she is prone to writing very often. And it's a perfect fit for him.

[Adam Naiman]

Well, no. Or when she has these like semi disinterested husbands or these kind of know it all characters. They kind of exist at the margins of the. Of the film. I mean, again, you watch a director's films enough and you find rhymes between them. It's interesting because I thought a lot of night moves during this film, but I wouldn't say that the performance that o' Connor's giving is like what Eisenberg did in that film, which is genuinely almost a sociopathic performance and a very scary one. But, yeah, she. I mean, I just think that there's a. And some people mentioned inside Llewyn Davis with this film because it has that kind of drifting, picturesque quality. And I think that there's something similar to the way o' Connor can rumple his handsomeness, you know, the way that Oscar Isaac sort of did in that movie. So, you know, depending from scene to scene, he can be quite seductive or can sort of seem quite pathetic. One thing I love, because I know we're being careful to not spoil the movie, but it's a measure of how good a filmmaker she is. Everywhere he goes, once he's kind of disconnected or has to bring himself, you know, on the road, the artwork in the hotels he's staying at just seem to mock him so much because they're just. They're so atrocious.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The frame. Yeah, there's one, like, where he's in the bathroom or something, and the entire frame is just some terrible piece of art that.

[Adam Naiman]

Some terrible, kitschy piece of art. And now he's been. You know, he's been liberated from his sad little house and, you know, hanging out in the basement with the boys, planning heists and stuff. And now he's just stuck in these hotel rooms of the damned with these, like, crooked velvet. With these crooked velvet paintings. I mean. I mean, again, in describing it or hearing you guys talk about it, and I know a word that kind of keeps. Keeps coming up is like. It is a little mean.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

You know, there some. Some of the grace that you might see in some of her other movies isn't necessarily there, but I do think it's well aimed. And I'm glad Amanda brought up the seven. You got both did the 70s political context, because she doesn't lay that on too thick. But there's like a Richard Nixon jump scare late in the movie. That's just. It's like Mad Magazine. It's priceless. It's really funny.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think the Night Moves comparison is the best because a lot of her films end in these kind of, like, elegiac ways where you're, like, meant to think about where these characters will go from here, but they're not upbeat, but they're not downbeat. Night Moves is really the only one of those movies that I think about where I'm like, the end of that movie, there's just a kind of hopelessness, like a displacement. And that's very similar to this, even though this movie is much funnier than Night Moves is.

[Adam Naiman]

Well, when she did Night Moves, I remember interviewing. I mean, I've been interviewing her for a long time. Lucky to, right? I mean, I interviewed for her for the first time in 2005 when old Joy came out.

[Sean Fennesee]

She's one of the great. No bullshit interviews. Like, she's great. She will answer directly whatever you.

[Adam Naiman]

And I remember that the reception to Night Moves there was a little prickliness because, first of all, people were like, why are you making movie. Environmental activists. That doesn't idealize them or beyond. Not just. And, you know, because she said, it's more interesting as drama. But also she's like, these people are all like, why does your movie have a plot? You know, like, it almost becomes a bit of an insult to a filmmaker when you say, well, your movies are so minimal and nothing happens in them. And that's what's great. I mean, I think that it is maybe not the broadest tonal range in the world, but she's made lots of different genres and variations on lots of different kinds of movies sort of within that range. So when you were saying that the movie feels like a bit of a reaction to the reaction to showing up. You know, I can see that she's very aware of what people write about in her films, but a good half of her films have, like, theft in them. You know, some sort of theft, some sort of stealing. Even in certain women. There's a kind of quasi heist in the middle section where James La Grosse and Michelle Williams are trying to take the marble or whatever, the stone, away from that old guy. Like, people scheme all through her movies. It's about time she made a heist movie. She should make another one.

[Sean Fennesee]

You mentioned this when we were having an A24 conversation recently, but there was a big profile of the studio in the New Yorker some months ago, and she was quoted a few times in that piece. And she talked about how she was very grateful to have gotten to make two movies at a 24, but that they're kind of not interested in the kinds of movies that she makes. And if you look at the distributors of her movies, she's kind of been jumping from lily pad to lily pad. And she's a very interesting occupant of independent cinema in the 21st century. Right. Her career after river of Grass is like a long period of time before Old Joy. And she's basically been making movies for the last 20 plus years. And she's made a movie with IFC. She's made. Now this movie is with Mubi, as Mubi is making this big push. This is the last release before the wide release of the new Jennifer Lawrence film, Die My Love, Die My Love, which is going to be on like 3,000 screens. And it does seem like every five years or so there's a new art house imprint that is like, we're a big deal.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

And in the aftermath of the substance, they're doing this. But this is what's great about these companies, is that you also will finance the new Kelly Reichardt movie. Put it on screens in America and it could make a million bucks. It can make 5 million bucks if you're lucky and you market it correctly. And you know, Adam, at the top of this conversation, we had this discussion about how movies are being eventized and 70 millimeter IMAX screens are being built in cities like Rochester and Colorado Springs now in order to serve films like the Odyssey. And I don't think that independent cinema is like, going away, per se, but it is very challenging theatrically distributing a movie like this. And you really gotta have smart people working on the other side of it. It's not good enough for the movie to just be good. It has to have this apparatus around it to get people to know about it. And obviously, we're doing our part.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, we're trying our best.

[Sean Fennesee]

We're doing our best, but we also. I can't build an episode around the Mastermind and expect anyone to listen to it. So there's a paradox there that is challenging. And I give her credit. I recently heard her talking on the Business with Kim Masters about how this is how she wants to work. She wants to work on films at this scale so she can tell the stories that she wants to tell. She doesn't want anybody telling her how to make her movies. And the consequence of that is sometimes they don't get as seen as widely as possible. But I'm very happy that she is continuing to work in this way. I don't know if you have any reflections on this current moment in independent distribution.

[Adam Naiman]

No, I have a lot of reflections on it and they would be in line with what you're saying. Not solutions, just observations. I'm, you know, obviously I'm located in Toronto and it's I, I won't go on and on about what rep culture and art house culture looks like here, but it's maybe a little less robust than some listeners might think because, you know, for 10 days you have everyone focusing on TIFF and Toronto. It kind of feels like this cosmopolitan film epicenter. And obviously we have great young and, and, and mid career filmmakers here and we're the home of David Cronenberg. But our rep options are somewhat limited. Our art house options are not as wide as you'd like. There's great local theater showing older movies and building audiences that way. But a lot of the movies that open in la, and certainly a lot of the independent films and foreign films that open New York, they don't get a look here. And when they do and when audiences are full, it's because you do have those smart distributors kind of, you know, paper the house with students and reach out to film programs and eventize the screenings, even through something as simple as social media. You know, we're reaching out and trying to get U of T students in there to, you know, to see a movie like Anemone. It's a challenge. And I think Kelly is an example of a filmmaker who, she's not like, straining to keep her budget small and her movie small scale. I think it's her sensibility. I mean, there was also, there was an interview recently, a filmmaker I'm sure you'll talk about later. And maybe I can. I'd love to talk because I don't love the movie, which is Chloe Zhao with Hamnet, had that interview where she's like, you know, you don't have to go spend a bunch of money. You know, you don't have to spend more than your, your, your producer is willing to spend. You don't have to make something that loses money, which is like a weird way of putting it, especially after a movie like Eternals, which I know it's not up to her how much that movie costs, right? But it's certainly something directors are addressing more and more in interviews as the economics of this becomes so much more transparent, partially because of podcasts and blogs that almost treat this stuff like sports stats. Sometimes, sometimes does unveil something really real about how the economics of how this works and sometimes just seems to build up more mythology.

[Sean Fennesee]

Any closing thoughts?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I thought the parenting was okay. You know, I don't think it's the.

[Sean Fennesee]

Worst decision that they took those kids at the bowling alley by themselves.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's the 70s, you know, things were different. They have money.

[Adam Naiman]

So wait Wait, which part of the parenting, though? Cause that's fine.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's fine. Oh, yeah. Once he leaves them and his. Yeah, it's not good. Definitely a bad spouse also. Yes, but I, Yeah, I thought leaving them at the bowling alley was just fine. They need to learn not to eat junk food on their own, you know, personal responsibility.

[Sean Fennesee]

We're learning a lot about you in this episode and your parenting style. Adam, what are you working on, man? What's coming up next?

[Adam Naiman]

I'm going to leave my kid at a bowling alley tomorrow.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, well, the audience will be there to watch her, so it'll be okay. Okay.

[Adam Naiman]

You know, I continue to slave away on my long, long gestating, still unannounced book project, which everyone will be, you know, excited to hear about when I finally say what it is.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's the Thanos prequel, right, that Kelly is adapting.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah. Finally trying my hand at that. Trying to catch up on the, the, the, you know, the rest of the movies worth seeing this year, I think, I think seeing Marty supreme soon, you know, which I hear has some Dr. Juice. And watching, watching some watching, watching some Blue Jay games, you would be surprised to know have still only managed to see one battle after another the one time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Wow, you're four behind me. Yeah, you better get those numbers up. Really step up, Adam.

[Adam Naiman]

I, I, I, I, I, I had my kids alone for two weeks while my wife was traveling far away. I did not leave my house after 6pm for two weeks. So a lot of baseball, but not a lot of new, not a lot of new releases.

[Sean Fennesee]

We've both been there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Listen, I've got one of those that's week.

[Adam Naiman]

So, I mean, I, I came out of it stronger. Nothing can hurt me now. Except then my, except then my immune system completely collapsed as soon as my wife came home. And I was like, guess what? I'm sick. Well, which is why, if anyone's wondering, I look even more haggard. You know, people send me, I, I love listeners to this show. People send me this stuff. I don't seek it out, but I do. Like, apparently people think I look like Samoa Joe.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. Yeah. Are you familiar with his work?

[Adam Naiman]

I am. He's great. He's brilliant.

[Sean Fennesee]

He's having a moment. I feel like, is he the champ champion at AEW right now?

[Adam Naiman]

I don't, I don't follow anymore. But I know, you know, his, his.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Deal, but just learned who this is.

[Adam Naiman]

He's a brilliant, brilliant professional wrestler. Okay, but, but, you know, for, for people who are watching, if they're wondering why I look particularly haggard and old. That's why next time it'll be less. Less. So.

[Sean Fennesee]

You look beautiful to me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

And, oh, I appreciate.

[Sean Fennesee]

The only thing more beautiful than your face is your mind, Adam. And thank you for sharing your mind as always. Blue Jays.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wow.

[Adam Naiman]

Blue Jays.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't. I don't endorse that.

[Adam Naiman]

Well, will this be out after the game?

[Sean Fennesee]

It will be out this afternoon.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So concurring.

[Adam Naiman]

Oh, okay. So, yeah, we. We. We'll. We'll. We. We'll find out in real time.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'm certain we have cursed them by having this discussion, but, Adam, it was wonderful to see you. We'll see you soon.

[Adam Naiman]

Thanks for having me. As always, guys. You can take care. Best your families.

[Sean Fennesee]

Thanks to Adam. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Later this week. Number seven on 25 for 25. You want any hints? Anything you want to share?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I thought about wearing a red shirt today, and then I was like, oh, I should save it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Wow. Okay. I'll have to think about my color as well. We'll see you then.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly.

[Sean Fennesee]

They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as.

[Amanda Dobbins]

If they they do not exist. New Teen, the new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you.