‘Avatar: Fire and Ash’ Burns Bright Before Flaming Out. Plus: Best Picture Power Rankings and the Oscar Short Lists!

Summary

The Big Picture – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Big Picture
Hosts: Sean Fennessey & Amanda Dobbins
Date: December 19, 2025
Episode Title: ‘Avatar: Fire and Ash’ Burns Bright Before Flaming Out. Plus: Best Picture Power Rankings and the Oscar Short Lists!

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Episode Overview

Sean and Amanda return for an end-of-the-year look at James Cameron’s “Avatar: Fire and Ash,” the third installment in the blockbuster franchise. They assess the movie’s strengths and shortcomings, its place within contemporary Hollywood, and whether it can stand alongside its predecessors. The episode then pivots to discuss seismic Oscar telecast news, analyze the Steven Spielberg trailer “Disclosure Day,” and break down Oscar shortlists along with 2025’s Best Picture Power Rankings. As always, the tone is conversational, opinionated, and infused with humor about both the movies and themselves.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Oscars Moving to YouTube — A Tectonic Shift

• Announcement: Starting in 2029, the Academy Awards will move from ABC to YouTube (03:00–04:00).
• Implications:
  • Global accessibility; easier for international fans ("…consumers will be able to watch this show for free around the world." – Sean, 03:25).
  • All Academy content consolidates on YouTube, enhancing the Oscars' online presence (04:35–05:30).
  • Loss of some prestige (“…inevitably a kind of lowering of the prestige…by making it something you…watch on a device.” – Sean, 05:14).
• Why YouTube, not Netflix? Possibly a bigger check from Google, perhaps a reluctance to further Netflix dominance (07:02–07:58).
• Streaming duopoly: Sean sees a “death struggle between YouTube and Netflix” for cultural primacy (08:19–08:43).

2. Trailer Talk: Steven Spielberg’s “Disclosure Day” (12:48–15:27)

• A new Spielberg sci-fi thriller starring Emily Blunt and Josh O’Connor; described as an alien invasion film (“I thought it was an absolutely thrilling trailer. Astonished that a 78-year-old man would make a movie this big.” – Sean, 14:02).
• Notable for its thrilling set pieces and questionable CGI (“There are a few images…that don’t look good…like an AI Hallmark card.” – Sean, 14:58).
• Anticipation high for Spielberg’s originality and blockbuster sensibility.

3. Main Review: Avatar: Fire and Ash

Plot and Initial Impressions (16:05–19:22)

• Picks up after “Way of Water”; Jake and Neytiri grieve their son, facing off against the Ash People clan, led by Varang.
• Technical marvel but story fatigue: Amanda’s verdict – “It’s a no for me, dog…The experiment has run out.” (17:47)

Visuals vs. Story (19:22–23:53)

• Both agree: unmatched technical craft (“…looks really, really good” – Amanda, 18:05).
• But a story that’s largely a retread and overstuffed (“Such a retread of the last one and so bogged down in its own ideas…loses…basic pacing and plotting.” – Amanda, 18:05).
• Pacing suffers; extended set pieces followed by draggy, meditative stretches (“…movies just slow down a lot, and they really take their time letting the characters sit inside…sadness…” – Sean, 22:55).

Character Issues & Worldbuilding (23:17–27:47)

• Many characters hard to distinguish (“…for a million dollars, can you name three of these people?” – Amanda, 23:20).
• Rules of Pandora and its mythology remain confusing; critiques about clarity and audience engagement.
• Extended, notable sequence: Sigourney Weaver’s Kiri has an intense spiritual experience, described as a “Na’Vi orgasm,” which amuses the hosts (24:30–25:20).

Villains, Sexuality, and Performance Standouts (28:28–33:33)

• Oona Chaplin as Varang lauded for bringing personality and menace (“She’s very sexy…hips forward Na’Vi.” – Sean, 30:17)
• Unpacking the absence of body diversity and Cameron’s personal beliefs (“There must be some quote unquote, heroin chic…” – Amanda, 30:28).
• Psychedelic tent scene between Varang and Quaritch: a highlight, likened to a “Na’Vi PCP” trip and one of the film’s most entertaining moments.

Themes and Flaws (33:09–38:51)

• Second half loses focus; major villain (Varang) sidelined.
• Whale character (Payakan) exiled and parallels to Lo’ak’s outsider storyline.
• Cameron’s struggle with franchise filmmaking; repetition and lack of major set-piece innovation.

Family, Gender, and Meta-Readings (37:12–38:51)

• Amanda: female characters, especially Neytiri and Kate Winslet’s, underdeveloped and sidelined until finale.
• Babymaking climax called out as a trope (“…classic, you know, I’m dying, but I gotta give life to this baby first.” – Amanda, 38:41).
• Sean sees the film as a “dad in crisis” and “you got this mama” movie, reflective of Cameron’s own life stage.

Wrap-Up and Reception (42:12–44:13)

• Divided cohosts: Sean finds it flawed but still remarkable in its craft and spectacle; Amanda unmoved and ready to step off the Pandora train.
• Both predict lower box office and diminished Oscar prospects relative to previous Avatar films.
• Uncertainty about Cameron’s continued involvement as he seems invested in other projects.

4. Oscars Shortlists & Industry Trends

Oscar Shortlists Released (44:13–54:01)

• “Fire and Ash” shortlisted in four categories but seen as unlikely for Best Picture.
• “Sinners” and “Wicked for Good” are shortlist leaders.
• Notable surprises include the strong performance of “Seurat” and the absence of “J. Kelly,” raising doubts about Adam Sandler’s chances (45:45–46:11).
• Reflects shifts in studio power (rise of Neon, Searchlight possibly shut out for the first time in over a decade).

Notable Category Breakdowns

• Casting: Strong year, notable for films like “Weapons” and “Seurat” (49:49–51:06).
• International Feature: Neon’s dominance, five titles possible; significant presence of bold international cinema (51:30–54:07).
• Cinematography & Music: Head-scratchers, with several acclaimed contenders snubbed (56:56–59:49).
• Original Song: Disappointment at missed opportunities for popular music inclusion (“…only one K Pop Demon Hunters. What are we doing?” – Amanda, 58:24).
• Best Score: Diverse field, including blockbusters and foreign films (59:55–61:16).

5. Best Picture Power Rankings

• Reflecting the evolving landscape and the impact of shortlist standings.
• Top contenders: “One Battle After Another,” “Sinners,” “Hamnet,” “It Was Just an Accident,” “Marty Supreme,” “Frankenstein,” “Sentimental Value,” “Train Dreams,” “The Secret Agent,” and the bold new entry “Seurat.” (79:11–79:12)
• “Avatar: Fire and Ash” dropped out due to waning critical enthusiasm and perceived lack of “juice.”
• Candid admission that predictions are becoming harder as the race becomes more international and less predictable.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s a no for me, dog. Respectfully, the experiment has run out.”
  – Amanda, on Avatar: Fire and Ash ([17:47])

• “You watch a movie like this and then you get mad that you have to go back and watch a Marvel movie or…Mario's. It just doesn’t…”
  – Amanda, on Avatar’s technical dominance ([18:05])

• “I was in the bathroom for like 98 seconds…but experientially, it goes on for a while and there’s like a lot of swaying and you’re like, what's wrong with a prolonged orgasm?”
  – Bathroom break/Na’Vi spiritual sequence banter ([24:52–25:11])

• “Where are the fat Na’Vi?…the body image in Avatar is not what one would want.”
  – Amanda, on Na’Vi physical perfection ([30:21])

• “It's just Big Jim and all of his toys, computers and guns together, and I just wasn't involved.”
  – Amanda, summing up her detachment ([18:05])

• “Psychedelic seduction…Ayahuasca…letting his freak flag fly!”
  – Sean, enthusing on the Varang x Quaritch tent scene ([32:07–32:18])

Timestamps for Key Segments:

• Oscars/YouTube Announcement: [03:00–07:58]
• Spielberg Trailer: [12:48–15:27]
• Avatar: Fire and Ash Review: [16:05–44:13]
• Oscar Shortlists: [44:13–54:01]
• Cinematography/Music Breakdown: [56:56–61:16]
• Best Picture Power Rankings: [62:13–79:12]

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Final Takeaways

• “Avatar: Fire and Ash” inspires awe for its visuals but disappointment for its recycled narrative and stretched storytelling; Amanda’s patience runs out.
• The Oscars’ move to YouTube represents a dramatic and irreversible shift in distribution and accessibility, signaling the true arrival of streaming as the new gatekeeper.
• Bold international films make surprising moves on Academy shortlists, cementing 2025 as a year of industry transformation.
• The year-end Best Picture race is wide open, as traditional favorites jostle with neon-lit upstarts and the familiar gives way to the adventurous.

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Listeners new and old will find a thorough exploration of the state of big-budget filmmaking, the challenge of franchise fatigue, and the dynamism roiling the awards landscape—leavened by sharp, self-deprecating wit.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. I'm Sean Fennesee.

[B]

I'm Amanda Davenant and this is the.

[A]

Big Picture, a conversation show about Avatar, Fire and Ash. Today on the show, we're headed back to Pandora as we dive into the depths of James Cameron's third Avatar film, Fire and Ash. We'll talk about how it stacks up to the the previous installments. High frame rate filmmaking. Amanda?

[B]

Yes, Good morning.

[A]

Okay. Whether or not a Na' Vi can be hot or sexually desirable. Yeah, we'll talk about that. Cameron's future with the franchise. Will there be more of these movies? We shall see. We'll also check in on our best picture power rankings because this is the last time we'll be discussing that in the year 2025. And this is a movie that may or may not make the cut. We're also going to talk about the trailer for one of our most anticipated movies of 2026 and the Oscar shortlist. And we've just had some crazy news in the world of the big picture and the Academy Awards right after this.

[B]

This episode of the Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie there's that last minute scramble to make it all come together. From gifts to hosting essentials. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.

[A]

Okay, we're back.

[B]

You're getting so good at your, like, local News tonight at 10pm teaser. It's like yours is really coming through for you.

[A]

I know my native broadcaster game show host has really popped recently, which is so great because we're all streaming now, baby. Including the Academy Awards. The Academy Awards just announced the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences that starting in 2029, they will be moving their telecast from ABC to YouTube.

[B]

Yes. So we knew the rights were on the block and there were multiple bidders. Would it, you know, would ABC Disney pony up again? Would it be Netflix who's been making a real push into live events and die balls and all sorts of new programming culture? Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and, or would it be YouTube and, and, and here we are. YouTube wins again.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I think this is good.

[B]

That's, I have no problem with it.

[A]

I think it's good. I think it is. I think it's logical.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense for the Academy Awards as we know them right now and probably for it's at least immediate future. And I think it's good for consumers who are going to be able to watch this show for free around the world. And I will emphasize around the world because one, this telecast was not as clearly and easily available in England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, you know, a lot of English speaking countries that would want to watch obviously. In addition to that, the Academy has gotten so international in the last 10 years and the best picture race has gotten so international. Right now my gut tells me there's going to be three, maybe even four foreign language nominees for best picture this year. Stands to reason that this becoming the world historical movie awards year by year, which it was not really, if we're being honest in the past, but has it has becoming that it makes sense that around the world you'd want to have easy access to this show in one centralized space. This deal makes that so.

[B]

Yes, I am also okay with it. I mean I do think user wise and I tend to think more in terms of consumption of an American audience because that's like what we've been talking about. But I even think for an American audience this will be easier and is meeting the audience where it is. And you know, we've talked a lot about the YouTube threat to the movies writ large or really to everyone else. It's like because of people viewing people like watching things on YouTube like us right now, I guess and. Or are they watching things on TV or in movie theaters? And I don't really care whether people are watching the oscars on linear TV versus YouTube. And it's an interesting example of this is about movie culture. The Oscars are promoting movie culture, but it still was a TV show. So I don't think you're threatening like the theatrical experience by putting the television show honoring movies that used to be watched on ABC on a place where more people can find it. I think it's actually an instance of making movie culture more available to people who might be interested in it.

[A]

I think it also makes the Oscars as a brand a slightly more totalized streaming experience in ways that are good and bad. The good I'll cite here one, you basically get to build out the Academy's YouTube presence and then everything related to the Academy all lives in one place. And since the Academy becomes purely associated with YouTube, then when they're airing the Governor's Ball as they intend to, that might be more of an event for us to cover to be a topic of conversation. And then when Tom Cruise gives that speech, it's not something that's happening in a ballroom in the middle of Los Angeles and then the video will be posted 12 hours later. It's something that people might tune in to watch. All the red carpet coverage is going to end up on YouTube. That's a huge shift.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's a dramatic and fascinating thing. Obviously places like E will still have access to it, but you're making, you're commodifying all of the apparatuses around the Academy Awards and around the Academy's history into this place. So like will the Oscar nominees luncheon be appearing on YouTube? Does that mean that that's something that we'll get to see instead of hear about from five to ten trade reporters? Probably. I would make the most hay out of those things that I probably could. So you get all that now. The bad is not a, is more of a kind of a cosmic things are different now bad. I would say, sure that there is inevitably a kind of lowering of the prestige and specialness of the show by making it something that you almost have to watch on a device. You know, like obviously people will be watching it on televisions and we will too. But YouTube's association with the sort of like on the go, short form consumption, I mean versus this historically too long telecast. There's a bit of signal to noise there. You know, you will you pop in and check out the Oscars and then tune out. I guess some people do that on the regular but you know, it does. It's less glamorous to be on YouTube, let's be honest.

[B]

Yeah. Right now anyway, in 2025. But like it's less glamorous to be on streaming. And what this is is just a confirmation of that. As you said, it's a, it's a streaming duopoly. And like what's interesting is in this, in addition to it being on YouTube is that Netflix didn't get it. And that, that was like my first thought when I saw this.

[A]

What do you think that means since they're spending so much money right now? They have the actors Awards, right?

[B]

The Actress awards. I'm sorry, it'll never not be funny to me.

[A]

It's going to take a while for that one to sink in. I did remember it thankfully. But you know, they're getting involved in live awards programming. They obviously have spent the last 10 years making awards films. Is it because that would be seen as a conflict of interest? I don't really think so because ABC was owned by Disney, which also had films that competed.

[B]

No, I assume it was a. I assume it Was money. I assumed that, you know, YouTube cut and Google cut a bigger check. That's agreed. You know, you do wonder a little bit whether there's a little bit of conscious like. And also we would like to give this to YouTube in order to not give it to Netflix in order to not, you know, further the seeming monopoly on Hollywood that Netflix is expanding every day. This morning. Yes, as we're recording, the Paramount bid was rejected by Warner Brothers shareholders or.

[A]

No Warner Brothers board.

[B]

Warner Brothers board recommended. Recommended to this. Yeah. To reject. Which was expected. But it's. That seems to be inching closer towards Netflix. So, you know, who will know who like ever know if there was a, you know, a little bit of lean towards one offer or another. But I certainly thought of that.

[A]

It does feel like the streaming wars are boiling down to a death struggle between YouTube and Netflix. Obviously there are plenty of other places that are gonna draw eyeballs. Disney is not going anywhere in the world or in my home. But these are really the two big competitors. And obviously Instagram and TikTok have something to say about that too. But those are two to platforms that are not in pursuit of things like the Academy Awards.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And so they are short form. Exactly.

[B]

And in terms of longer, please actually watch this for more than five minutes. Yes.

[A]

And I guess YouTube's gambit here is that this is just a huge advertising play, you know, and that time spent and the way that they'll be able to integrate advertising and you know that thing that we talked about earlier this week where it was like, why is the Oscars not just a waystation for the premiere of every single new trailer? Well, that's already what YouTube is on a daily basis. It's the place we go to to look at trailers and we will get to one momentarily. So this all feels very logical.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder how it will integrate into YouTube TV and whether it's part of like a strategic play though, to elevate. Yeah, but like when they have their own channel, you know, we are a YouTube TV household as well. But are they just gonna then like portal me over to. Is this. Are they trying to wean me off cable further by this?

[A]

How about this? What if there was an oscars channel on YouTube TV?

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

You know, I mean, that's the kind of thing that you could do with these kinds of rights. So it's a four year license. This starts at the 101st Academy Awards, which means the 100th will be the last one on ABC television.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which just pure gut check. Just Pure. Be real with me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Are we there?

[A]

Will we be making this show?

[B]

Oh, oh.

[A]

At the. At the first ever YouTube Academy Awards.

[B]

I mean, a lot of people you gotta talk to about that one that aren't me right now. Let's see Beatles movies. What year is that again? Force of x. So that's 2028.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So 2029 is the year that the Beatles movies would be eligible. And I've said we gotta hold on one way or another, but I'm gonna have to get my business degree, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then a lot.

[A]

Yeah, that's coming very shortly.

[B]

Maybe you can go.

[A]

You're taking the speed test, right?

[B]

Yeah, it's the Kim Kardashian lawyer in business school at home.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

And maybe I'll throw a JD in there as well, you know, just to really represent our interests fully. But we have. I. I have said at least that we gotta hold on at least three through the Sam Mendes Beatles movies.

[A]

Hold on to our lives, like, or to this. This. This show?

[B]

Both.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We. Well, we just need a place to put our feelings.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, like, I haven't done this for as long as we've been doing this. To not have a platform to talk about these four guys as Beatles and Sam Mendes making four movies, that makes.

[A]

Me want to cancel the show. So that you have to go on IG live when the movies come out and, like, respond to people asking for 17 hours.

[B]

Who says, I won't do that?

[A]

You might do it regardless. You might do it regardless.

[B]

But anyway, that's April 7, 2028, and they would be eligible for the first YouTube Oscars hosted by Joseph Quinn.

[A]

That means those movies are going to be out less than a month after the 100th Academy Awards.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And in honor of that, I'll be watching all 100 telecasts consecutively, and I'm really excited about that. And I'll be streaming it on Twitch. Any other thoughts on this? I mean, this is just tectonic news. It is huge news. The earth under our feet is moving.

[B]

Are you surprised?

[A]

No. When you calm down, it's incredibly logical.

[B]

Yeah, I think. I wasn't surprised. I was like, oh, they got it. Like, oh, you know, it's a little bit of. It's YouTube flexing and being like, yes, we are, in fact, YouTube. And you guys have all been in a panic about all your other little stuff and where your movies are gonna go, and then here we are.

[A]

I genuinely like that it is broadcast by a company that is not actually making Movies. I think there is something coherent about that and that's really never been the case. So anyway, I think it's a good thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. I mentioned trailers.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We were trying to figure out last week with Joanna the name of the Steven Spielberg film. Was it Disclosure and was it a remake of the Michael Crichton adaptation from the 1990s about sexual harassment in the workplace? Was it Disclosure day? It was in fact Disclosure Day.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Trailer hit. This is in fact some kind of alien invasion thriller starring Emily Blunt and Josh o'. Connor. What did you think of the trailer?

[B]

Josh o' Connor forever. Put him at number three. I enjoyed his SNL hosting.

[A]

Oh, I didn't see any of that.

[B]

I just watched some clips. It was just mostly him in sweaters or giggling, you know. Nice.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Just a big fan. Speaking of sweaters, I'm really sorry, but like, is this come to garment garcon sweater new?

[A]

It's actually quite old. I just remembered I have it.

[B]

Okay, but like it's new in the rotation. Right. I clocked it.

[A]

I just was looking for another stuff.

[B]

About like the future of Hollywood and I was like, excuse me, Sean, did we go shopping without me? Okay. Thank you.

[A]

We've never been shopping together.

[B]

That's really not true. And in fact, I picked up the navy jacket.

[A]

Oh, you're right.

[B]

Jacket that you pick out all the time. I picked out for you.

[A]

That's true. I had Bravo with me today. That's right.

[B]

You're welcome. Anyway, pro Josh o', Connor, pro Steven Spielberg. I'm open to this.

[A]

I thought it was an absolutely thrilling trailer. I am astonished that a 78 year old man would make a movie this big. Keeps happening. Ridley Scott did this twice with Gladiator 2 in the last duel. We just saw Martin Scorsese make Killers of the Flower Moon. This is Francis Ford Coppola megalopolis. This is a trend that is happening now. The film obviously is very much in the succession of stories like this that he has been making over the years, from Close Encounters of the Third Kind to ET To War of the Worlds. The sound design of this trailer is incredible in terms of what is happening to Emily Blunt's voice in the opening moments. And I'm very excited. There are a few images that are CGI created that don't look good. And I'll just be honest about that. There is one shot in particular near the end of the trailer where we see a young girl and I believe it's a moose and a bird and they're standing before A lit a.

[B]

It looks a little bit more like a shot from Robert Z. Mexes here than you want it to.

[A]

It does. Or like an AI Hallmark card. So I didn't love that. But everything that was clearly practically done. For example, the car chase moment that they show us very briefly looks incredible. So I'm hoping that it's more of that and less of the former. Okay. But I'm fired up. An original summer blockbuster about aliens from Steven Spielberg. June 12th. Good stuff.

[B]

Put it in the calendar.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Do you think we'll be doing the podcast then?

[A]

Gosh, I hope so. I sure hope so.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Like an action blockbuster, the holidays move quickly, but with prime fast, free delivery means those last minute gifts arrive right when you need them. Last year, while watching Singin in the Rain with my son, I realized a pair of tap shoes would be a perfect Christmas gift. And I had them under the tree for him on Christmas day. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. Last minute holiday magic. It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.

[A]

Okay, speaking of blockbusters, it's time to talk about Fire Nash. Okay, now. Huh. This is interesting. So, new film directed by Cameron, of course. Written by Cameron, Rick Jaffa and Amanda Silver. Shot by Russell Carpenter. Again, as always, the film stars Sam Worthington and Zoe Saldana. Sigourney Weaver is back. Stephen Lang is back. Kate Winslet is back. Introducing Oona Chaplin. Jack Champion is back in the movie the Logline for Fire and Ashes. A year after settling in with the Metkayina clan, Jake and Neytiri's family grapples with grief after Neteyem's death. That's their son. They encounter a new aggressive Na' vi tribe, the Manguan clan, also called the Ash People, led by the fiery tribe leader Varang, who is allied with Jake's enemy, Quaritch, as the conflict on Pandora escalates to devastating consequences.

[B]

Okay, great, great summary.

[A]

Those are great.

[B]

Did you write that yourself?

[A]

I did not.

[B]

Okay. We saw this film together.

[A]

We did.

[B]

We saw this. I got there right on time and you'd saved me a seat, but we were sitting one row back from the whole Ringerverse clan, even though there were seats next to them in the row in front. And I wanted to ask you what that was about.

[A]

I was there before most of those people, and I also thought that that whole row was taken. And then so I Had to save you a seat.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

But in fact, it was not taken.

[B]

Okay, well, I appreciate that.

[A]

It was nothing against them. I spent the entire 30 minutes that I was there before the movie started talking to Van and Jomi.

[B]

I mean, as did I once I arrived, but I just, you know, so. So they were there and they were. They were with us, but apart.

[A]

Yeah. And they had a different experience watching the movie from you. Yeah. What'd you think?

[B]

It's a no for me, dog.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, it's. Respectfully, the experiment has run out. Not okay here. Okay. All right, let's be real. Let's. Let's respect.

[A]

For the first time ever, you're going to be honest on the podcast. Finally. I've been waiting years for you to just speak your truth.

[B]

James Cameron is a legend and good at making movies. And technically, I still think that these movies are incredible. And they look so much better than all the other CGI slop and all of the other, you know, animated. Like the created worlds that we see on screen. It is a completely different league. You watch a movie like this and then you get mad that you have to go back and watch a Marvel movie or, you know, Super Mario's, like, whatever. It just doesn't. There are, like, the technical craft achievement, undeniable. It looks really, really good. I do not care about these characters, in part because I think this story is such a retread of the last one and so bogged down in its. And so infatuated with its own ideas that it loses, like, basic pacing and plotting and communication of who these people are. So in the end, it was just Big Jim and all of his toys, computers and guns together, and I just wasn't involved.

[A]

Yeah, I think I share the same criticism, but that ultimately doesn't make me dislike the movie. I think because the highs in this movie are so incredibly high relative to any other blockbuster that's come out this year. Sure. That I was swayed often enough to come out liking it. I do not feel as positively about this movie as the Way of Water. Even though this movie might have higher highs, I don't think it's as complete a story as that movie was. And I completely agree with you about the very odd decisions in the script to just reiterate and replay moments from the first film. In some cases, beat for beat. And I don't, you know, we. We know that the. The movies were originally written to be one and they were split in half.

[B]

We gotta stop doing that. I agree that it's just that Means that you haven't finished editing the one movie that you have. No, no, I mean, like. Or the one script that you have.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I, I agree with you. I. But what's so crazy about that is that. So does that mean if the films were together, that they would feature together incidents repeating themselves like particular sieges on ships that happened in the third act of the. Which feel very similar to sieges on ships in the second Avatar film?

[B]

No, I think, I mean, it would be that you have to make choices, you know, and that you aren't doing things again or doing it even bigger. And there are just really no, there are no choices, no cuts made in this movie. It's just like, let's do this again and let's do this again and let's do it bigger.

[A]

Okay, so let me speak specifically, I think I said this to you and Mallory immediately after the film, that the film is a bit of a complex thing to digest because it's three hours and 14 minutes. It's even longer than the last film, which was quite long, as the listeners of our watch along pod know. And you will get a high high moment. And there's a high high moment in the first act where the family, Neytiri and Jake and their children are trying to leave the Metkayina clan and they're going to take these kind of like jellyfish dragons that are transporting them around and they're trying to get Spider away from the Metkayina clan and away from Quaritch being able to find them. His father, you know, who's been hunting for him since the second film. And there's a battle sequence with the ash people on these jellyfish dragons. I don't know what they're called. I apologize to those who know the lore and anthropology of the world of Pandora. And it is just absolute 10 out of 10 Cameronian mania. Like, just really exciting action, great staging. It's all very coherent. So many movies like this, and maybe because so much of this work is done in, in, in post, but as you see in the materials, like going behind the scenes, like they are actually using real rigs, real environments to design and execute on a lot of these sequences. And then after that sequence, which is very dramatic, movies just slow down a lot and they really take their time letting the characters sit inside. The sadness or the alienation or the isolation that they all experience, they all get kind of spread apart and then the film kind of sets out to hopefully reunite the family over the course of the film. But he is really Comfortable sitting in that anguish. And the movie slows down a lot, multiple times, and it just kind of messes with the pacing. You know, it's just draggy.

[B]

And there's just. There are also some logistical issues. I don't know where everyone is once they're all separated. And I personally don't remember who all of the characters are with enough detail in order to. You know, you're figuring it out as you go along, but you separate all.

[A]

These characters because you're Na' Vi racist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You think they all look the same.

[B]

That's so true. For a million dollars. Our friend Michael Lasker sent us a tweet that was like, for a million dollars, can you name three of these people? And you did, but it took you a little while.

[A]

I was just busy. I wasn't able to respond to that quickly. My guy, Lo'. Ak. Huge movie for Lo', Ak, for the Lo' ak heads.

[B]

Right. And for Payakan Redemption Whale, I guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Though I honestly don't remember. Are they redeemed in the end? This is the thing. I just, like. I don't remember what happens. I watched this movie and. Because, like, they're all separated and they're.

[A]

I saw it two weeks ago.

[B]

Well, but they're also. There's not. There's not a lot of development. They. They all get put in different places, and the point is just they, like, gotta get back together and then fight a lot with guns. And I.

[A]

Well, I think one of the reasons why, and one of the flaws of the movie, to me, is because there's more emphasis in this movie on Spider, who is the human who has become a kind of adopted member of the family, who's played by Jack Champion and who is put in, I think, in a tough spot in this movie. Early on in the film, he's really in peril, and he is revived in a kind of magical way by Kiri, the Sigourney Weaver character.

[B]

That's. You went to the bathroom for that?

[A]

Yes, but I'm aware that that happened.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you, like, didn't really get the full, like, extent of what's going on. But that's an. It's an incredible Sigourney Weaver, like, pretending to have a Na' Vi orgasm. Like, it was. It was unreal. Van in front of me was just like, what is happening? And then I. And I was, like, sitting in the aisle by my being, like, I need someone. It goes on and on and on because she connects to the spirit tree.

[A]

I was in the bathroom for like 98 seconds.

[B]

I.

[A]

And it.

[B]

But it experientially, it goes on for a while and there's like a lot of swaying and you're like, what's wrong.

[A]

With a prolonged orgasm? Just out of curiosity.

[B]

No, I, I think that that's great. It. I would remind you that Kiri is like a teenager and it is Sigourney waiver.

[A]

Yeah. But the years, like how does that work developmentally?

[B]

I'm not gonna insert myself into that.

[A]

So when you Weaver, you know, she's a 70 year old woman, like it's right.

[B]

That's. I know that's true. And it's. I'm glad you know, life goes on and women, you know, women experience sexual health at all ages and that's really, really important. You know, I'm not done talking about navi sex.

[A]

Just for the record on this episode, I've got a lot more on this.

[B]

You know, we've made movement on perimenopause and menopause, but it's just there's. There's a world and a life beyond.

[A]

I'm. I'm getting ready to talk about Varang. Just wait for that.

[B]

We will, we'll talk about it. It's really long and I still. This is another thing. Like I don't understand the rules of the spirit tree. I don't feel that the logic and world of Pandora are effectively communicated.

[A]

Cinema sends dobbins concerned about the logic of Pandora.

[B]

Well, I turned to you at the beginning of this movie. What did I ask you?

[A]

I don't remember. What did you say?

[B]

I asked you if Pandora was real.

[A]

Oh yeah, that's true. And you were like, yeah, you did.

[B]

No, but what I was trying to ask you was, is Pandora real?

[A]

You were like, is it a state of mind or is it.

[B]

Is it a real place in the universe of. In the world of.

[A]

Step back and think about what your job is. Is an insane question to ask. Having watched two films about Planet Pandora where all of the action takes place.

[B]

I've told you that a lot of this, this sci fi mumbo jumbo often goes over my head and I do often think that it's. When it's. When it is legibly and clearly stated and you can put like where I can put my arms, my brain around it, then I like, I do think that's evidence of good storytelling. But if it's too complicated or if it's just too. If it requires like too many flights of. I do begin to fit. Like forget all the bits and Bobs.

[A]

I hear what you're saying. I think that these movies are very much a go with it experience, and you kind of have to go with it. Very few people in their lives will be asked to speak for one hour consecutively about a movie they saw two weeks ago. We have a very odd job. But with that in mind, ironically, relative to what you're saying, these movies are very simple. You know, the plotting and the arcs are very simple. It's like a father who wants to reunite with his son, another father grieving his son, the preservation of the ecology of this planet, you know, aquatic life and the mystery therein and how we protect that life. All these themes and ideas are all the same in all these movies.

[B]

Yeah. But when you slow it down and stretch it out, you give people more time to be like, okay, so why is she allowed to connect to the tree right now, but she can't before? Why can't they just connect to the tree all the time? Like, why is only she connecting to the tree? Like, it's. There's lots of.

[A]

Why is Hillary Clinton not working on this right now? Why is she not explaining to us the tree logic of Pandora?

[B]

The Kate Winslet character is like, not. Not Hillary Clinton esque.

[A]

She isn't. She's surprisingly not in the film very much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I had been led to believe she was a significant part of this series, and I would not describe it as such. The person who is a significant part of this series is the actress Una Chaplin.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The granddaughter of Charlie Chaplin, perhaps best known for her work on Game of Thrones. In the early seasons, I figured out.

[B]

What I knew her from, which was another. I spent another 10 minutes being like, what's she in? What's she in? But, like, at a respectful volume. We were in the back of the theater, and you didn't know she was the wife on the hour.

[A]

Oh, that's right. Yes. The Dominic west series. Yes.

[B]

Great show.

[A]

And Ramola Garai. Yeah, she's a great actress. And she does something that I think really, truly only Zoe Saldana has been able to do, which is to become real in a way to actually convey a kind of personality through the Na'. Vi. I think Sigourney Weaver does good work. Sam Worthington does good work in these movies. Stephen Lang does good work. But Varang, who is the leader of the Ash people tribe, who, you know, for sort of like, I guess, classically domineering survivalist reasons, wants to be the only surviving Na' Vi tribe, attacks all of its, I guess, genealogical competitors and so they are at this kind of war.

[B]

Well, didn't they get burned out of their home? And so now they need other homes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But, you know, but it was sort of the way in which they pursue that is a little hazy type.

[B]

The fire. We discovered the fire, but then it ruined us. And I was like. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, say here.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then. Yeah. Then they've just become.

[A]

They're in pursuit of violent conflict. Yeah. And they're trying to take over as much of Pandora as they possibly can. Even though they're a relatively small tribe based on what we see, nevertheless, they become the big bads of the movie, or at least the first half of the movie. And Varang, she's very sexy. I don't know what to say. She's a very alluring. Hips forward. Na'. Vi.

[B]

All the Na'.

[A]

Vi. Where are the fat Na'? Vi? That's a really good point.

[B]

They don't exist. And the body image in Avatar is not what one would want.

[A]

Interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

[B]

It's not good. We're back to. There must be some quote unquote, heroin chic. There aren't.

[A]

But someone in Pandora who just, like, eats too many Cheez Its. You know, they don't have Cheez its.

[B]

Because they're in touch with the, you know, natural world. And also, Jim Cameron is a vegan and so he's against processed food.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Well, nevertheless, Varang, she's got it like that. And Quaritch notices.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Quaritch, who is, you know, in pursuit of Spider and Jake Sully, and he wants to capture Jake, his mortal enemy, and bring his son home. He falls in with Varang and there's an incredible sequence in this movie.

[B]

Oh, this part's really good.

[A]

Where she tempts him into a tent and he thinks he's in the power position. And then she gets him to snort what I guess is Na' Vi pcp.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he begins hallucinating. And then in his hallucination, the film turns into this psychedelic seduction.

[B]

It was very cool.

[A]

It's a great moment in the movie.

[B]

I thought it was very funny. Yeah, I was entertained.

[A]

It's very amusing. And it is very much like James Cameron, you know, child of the 60s, letting his freak flag fly, you know, going back to his hippie days of experimenting.

[B]

It's documented that he was a hippie and on.

[A]

And I think he was a.

[B]

He seems a little controlled Freak to.

[A]

He was definitely like an erector set science guy for sure. But I think he also is like a lettuce freak, flag fly guy, you know, Like, I. This guy was married to Linda Hamilton and Katherine Bigelow. Like, he could. He knew what he was doing totally.

[B]

But, like, this is not a man who, to me, seems like he's ready to let the spirits take over.

[A]

Well, maybe not now, which.

[B]

And it's like. It's like a take one to no one situation.

[A]

But he might want to plug into that tree now. It's more spiritual rather than his experimental with other.

[B]

So you think he's like a Ayahuasca type guy?

[A]

Well, see, I felt like the. The Varang Coke was more like Ayahuasca. Like that was what it was meant to induce. Whereas the tree is this, like I'm connecting with. With a greater God, you know, something beyond me. And that's the polarity, I think, of the boomer. You know, the boomer is kind of stuck between is it God or is it the devil? And these are the two representations. This film is incredibly deep as an exploration of Jimmy's.

[B]

I was just shaking my head at boomers, you know, like, it's just that.

[A]

They won't let go.

[B]

They really won't.

[A]

They will not let go.

[B]

It's just very boring. Yeah, that was a good scene. It's like there are amusing parts of it, but I think we've made it, what, 75 minutes into the movie.

[A]

Yeah. And that's the thing, is that Varang is extremely hostile and intense and she's a great villain. You really hate her. You really. Despite my attraction to her, she's evil and she's attacking you.

[B]

Well, you don't hate her. She is like the classical villain that you're turned on by and you're like, no, maybe that's the person that I wanna spend the most time with.

[A]

Right. But then when she enters Quaritch's atmosphere, he kinda just blots her out a lot. And then she becomes a part of his story and she gets less dialogue, she becomes less powerful. And the film really takes a big dip into the second act. I think once you get roughly an hour, hour, 20 minutes into the movie, there is a lot of action and a lot of stuff that transpires that is interesting. You know, our guy Payakan the whale does go on trial. At a certain point, he gets railroaded by the whale jury. And, you know, it's like straight out of the Hurricane, you know, it's like he was not there that night. Like, he's not guilty. You have to free Payakan. You should not be imprisoning him. He is. He is a whale who deserves to swim in the ocean freely and not be outcast by his own people. And, you know, a lot of parallels there with how Lo' ak feels inside of his own family, you know, and that's his spirit guide.

[B]

That's literalized.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I liked the whale council.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That was funny. I didn't understand then, once again, Payakan is exiled and then there are other whales that he's talking to. But, like, I didn't know. He goes far away, and I didn't know who else was talking to him.

[A]

It's a fair point. We don't really. Because the Tulkuns don't really speak English. It's a little hard to know, like, where they are, where they're telling.

[B]

It's not. I don't mind subtitles. I'm not Chris Ryan. It's just that it was not made clear who the other whales. And then he just has to go away to come back. I didn't understand what the point of the journey was.

[A]

I think it's that. I think it's just that classical thing where a character needs to experience exile and isolation in order to come back even stronger and save the day, which is something that. That you see in a lot of Cameron movies. One of the reasons why I think the movie is struggling a bit is that this is actually, despite his long and historic career, something Cameron's never done before. He's never made a third movie in a series, and he definitely has not made three consecutive movies in a series before. He's made Aliens, which is magnificent, but he did not make Alien the extension of a story. He seems to be, like, a little flummoxed with how to keep it going. And I think a lot of your criticisms are down to that, where it's sort of like, I built this world. Okay? I got all this cool stuff in my world. But then even in terms of the ash people, like, he just doesn't really fully explore that stuff. Like, we don't really get their world for the last hour and a half of the movie. And I thought that there was gonna be, like, a big conclusive fight on a volcano to end the movie. And that's not what we. It's another battle on the water in the third act.

[B]

It is true that this is a film titled Fire and Ashley, and there's very little fire and almost no ash.

[A]

Where's all this ash.

[B]

It's in the water.

[A]

No, it's fucking up Quaritch's nose, I guess so.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Got that booger ash. I did like a lot of the submarine subterranean stuff in the movie, especially the crazy attacking squids that play a.

[B]

Big role in the movie. Yeah, those were cool. You chuckled a lot when you showed up.

[A]

That was just like Maniac Cameron action stuff that I was loving. There are moments where I was delighted during this movie. But I can't disagree with a lot of what you're saying in terms of what doesn't really functionally work that well about it. But I also do like it as this crazy man's representation of all of his interests at this stage of his life. I think there's something cool about that. And also, just clearly as a father and somebody who's spent way too much time at work, he's going through it with the way that Jake sully his relationship to Lo', ak, to Spiderman, you know, to Kiri, to like, who belongs in the clan and who doesn't. Who's getting his time, who doesn't. Should you be more of an authoritarian leader and father? Should you be softer and warmer to your children? Like, this feels autobiographical, does it not?

[B]

I guess so.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No, it does, but I was literally just trying to be like, okay, so Jake, he tries to like, ditch Spider somewhere and then he tries to kill him.

[A]

I mean, he lines up to, to, to sacrifice him and then they say.

[B]

No, of course he loves his son. I, I was just thinking more about how the, the moms are entirely sidelined until the very end where, spoiler alert. Kate Winslet's character, who's been pregnant for all of two films, I'm not really.

[A]

Sure, like, what, 27 years. That's the gestation period on Pandora. Takes 27 years to get as long.

[B]

As a year on Pandora, though.

[A]

Well.

[B]

Aha. There you go, Mr. Science.

[A]

Time is meaningless and yet it controls us anyway. Anyway, does this quote remind me from one battle?

[B]

I don't. It's. Yeah, time doesn't exist.

[A]

Time doesn't exist, but it trolls us. Anyway, thank you.

[B]

So she has a classic, you know, I'm dying, but I gotta give life to this baby first. Because that's like, what true mamas do moment. And then Neytiri, who has been nowhere for the whole movie, which sucks, shows up and is like, okay, I will, you know, preside over this most like, holy act of woman warriorhood, which is you pushing out a baby, which, like, true or whatever. And then Kate Winslet out, which is disappointing.

[A]

It is a you got this mama movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a lot of ways, as much as it is a dad in crisis movie, it's also a you got this mama movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[B]

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[A]

I half jokingly, but maybe quite seriously tweeted the movie is a soft remake of John Ford's Drums along the Mohawk. Okay. I don't know why that hit my mind, but it is true. And there is a certain kind of a movie about invaders of a native land. And one group wants to fight for their independence. And then the loyalists want to retain the colonial pride and the crown. And in that movie on the New York frontier, the loyalists conscript the Native American people on that land to fight alongside them against the revolutionaries. I think that's a pretty clever, smart idea for a war movie inside of this modern time. I think it works and it makes sense. It's something that you see in foreign conflicts all the time in 2025 too. So that's an aspect of the movie that I thought was smart that I like the idea of Varang and her crew, like joining the humans and being. And that there's a confrontation with Quaritch and Edie Falco's general character, you know, when the fire people, the ash people come back to the human base. This is very amusing. Edie Falco is in a lot of this movie, more than I expected. She looks at some transparent screens and yells a lot.

[B]

Right. And she's also in one of the.

[A]

Yes, a power loader.

[B]

Is that the power loader in this movie though, or is that just in way of water?

[A]

And I'm remembering as well, I think so a lot of Jemain Clement, you know, and he has a surprisingly heroic redemption arc in this movie in the way that he.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And works to free Imprison Navi. I don't. I think this movie is pretty cool.

[B]

I think. I think that's fine. It is a real Your mileage may vary situation and it's clear that Big Jim is having a great time and you had a great time. I think Van Lathan had a great time.

[A]

He stood and clapped at the end of the film.

[B]

So like if you're into three hours of just all out like machine gun battle sequences between made up people and sometimes a beautiful sea creature and sometimes some psychedelic experiences, then you'll have a great time. I don't think that this movie like the other, like the other two has that like transcending genre. Like you know, transcending. I'm going to the movies to have a good time thing that the first Avatar and the Sec and even Way of Water. It's something you've never really seen before, which you have in this movie. And there is something like experiential where this is more like, oh look, he did a funny thing and he decided to do this other funny thing. And so it's not transformative in the way the other two are.

[A]

I can't disagree with you. It's only been three years since the Way of Water and there's not a lot that is particularly new here. So you have to really enjoy these movies, I think to enjoy these things if you do. Yeah, yeah. Do you think that there will be a fourth and fifth? Well, how much? Just ballpark how much money you think this will make.

[B]

I mean, I guess we know it's going to crack a billion internationally worldwide just because of how things work. But the last one made over 2.

[A]

2.34 billion.

[B]

Okay. I guess 1.8.

[A]

Okay. I feel like it's gonna be lower than that.

[B]

You do?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because of all of the things that you're citing and I don't know if you'll get as many repeat viewings. Cause it is very long. I don't remember what the Christmas competition was in 2022. I guess we could look that up. There are not. This is the big fish for sure this weekend. But there are a lot of movies coming out in the next week or so. Marty supreme, the Housemaid. I just saw Song Song Blue and I've added it to the calendar. I'll be interviewing the director because I really like it. There's a bunch of stuff coming out over the course of the next week or so that will be chipping into this, at least domestically over that time. So I'm curious, I'm going to say 1.6 and then 1.6. Would that be a failure? I don't really know. I'm not really sure. How to think about it. I would be surprised if Cameron, who's 71, came back for four and five.

[B]

Right. He's already taking on other things. He's been talking a lot about the Ghost of Hiroshima. He co directed a movie with Billie Eilish, which I've seen a lot of trailers for while getting my nails done.

[A]

Nice. Did you watch that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

I mean, there's footage in the trailer of James Cameron and Billie Eilish interacting and like. Sure, sign me up. Yeah, why not? But it would seem that he's interested in things outside of the Na' Vi right now.

[A]

I want to talk about whether or not this film is going to get nominated for Best Picture. I think we should talk about the short list first.

[B]

Well, sure, because the short lists do shed some light.

[A]

They do. And Fire and Ash did get shortlisted, I believe, in four categories, so it's not as though it was not represented. But we're recording this on a Wednesday. So yesterday the shortlists were announced in 12 categories. This is the first year for the Best Casting Academy Award, which is really exciting. I think it might be worthwhile to spend 20 or 30 minutes in February breaking this down. Really, this category, what makes sense about it? But just High Level Sinners and Wicked for Good both were shortlisted eight times. This is not necessarily a signpost that these movies are going to dominate, but it doesn't hurt to be shortlisted in all these categories. Frankenstein got six shortlistings.

[B]

Also, not really surprising.

[A]

The surprising one was Seurat. Yeah, Seurat was shortlisted five times. Now, Seurat, which I think I saw in August. And. Have you seen it yet?

[B]

No, not yet.

[A]

Okay, so you haven't seen it yet. I mean, it sounds like we should talk about it.

[B]

No, we're gonna do it. I mean, it's number one on my list. It just. It was a very quick qualifying run.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so I hope they'll start making it more available.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it certainly seems like people in the Academy are watching it because it's shown up in a bunch of places here. A couple of other quick reflections before we get into the specific categories themselves. J. Kelly not in casting or cinematography. It does feel like J Kelly is DOA right now.

[B]

Agree.

[A]

And now I'm nervous about Adam Sandler.

[B]

Yeah, you were very confident about that on the Adam Sandler J. Kelly pod. And I just don't really think that it's going to happen.

[A]

Do you think it's. That's such a Jacob Elordi and Paul Mescal.

[B]

So it's for sure. Benicio del Toro, Sean Penn, Stellan Skarsgard. I think Meskell's in and, and it would have.

[A]

Probably have to be a Lordy in that spot. Okay. That's annoying. Anyway, I, I, I'm really.

[B]

I thought J was great, but Delroy Lindo, last minute.

[A]

It's possible. Certainly possible. I think we're, I think that we'll get into this when we get into Best Picture power. Interesting sinners moment right now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Interesting sinners moment.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Couple of Wake Up Dead man in just score. So that's not a good sign for Wake Up Dead man more broadly. Although it seems like people are really liking that movie, which is cool. It seems to be very.

[B]

It's a likable movie.

[A]

It is.

[B]

Once again, Josh o'. Connor.

[A]

He's a man. I would encourage people to listen to the Rian Johnson interview if they liked it. He's incredibly insightful. And if you liked it. I think he's really good at explaining why he made certain choices in the movie. So arguably the biggest thing that's happening here is that it doesn't seem like Searchlight's gonna have a movie in Best Picture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the Testament of Ann Lee got nothing. And I don't know if people.

[B]

Yeah. Which is, you know, which is a bummer. But it is like a, it's a, I guess it's a polarizing movie. We all quite liked it. Like I said, I saw a tremendous number of Italian people walking out of it in Venice. A friend of ours texted me this week and was just like, I hated that. And it's just. And said, they just aren't my taste.

[A]

I get that.

[B]

Which I, Which I get.

[A]

You mean Mona and Brady? Yeah. Yeah, I get that. But, like, the Brutals had, like, eight nominations. I mean, it was so sure.

[B]

Well, one's about men and the other is about women, so it's not really surprising.

[A]

But you're right about that. It is the. It's not the testament of Jim Lee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the testament of Ann Lee. So Ann Lee. God, I hope Amanda Seyfried is nominated. She is extraordinary in that movie. I do, too. I don't think that movie is really competing for Best Picture. We can talk about it. Rental Family is also not recognized. Here. Is this thing on? Not recognized. So since 2010, every year except 2016, Searchlight has had a movie in Best Picture. And the only reason it didn't have a movie in 2016 is because they acquired Birth of a Nation and then Nate Parker was entrenched in that scandal and then that movie kind of got erased. And that was a movie that coming out of Sundance, people were like, well, this is clearly a Best Picture contender. So you were looking at an unbroken run of 16 years of Academy, and prior to that they missed in 2009, but prior to that they had a bunch going way back. So, I mean, Searchlight is as significant an Oscar player over the last 30 years as SPC, as Miramax, as all of those companies. It's a big thing.

[B]

Yeah. But I think you are seeing like a regime change. How many is Neon gonna have this year?

[A]

What, at least three? Yeah, it looks like three, maybe four.

[B]

Right. And mostly because they just go to festivals and buy up all the international films and are running the table with.

[A]

That and them shifting into that international flair. And all of these movies, even though Rental Family is a film that takes place in Japan and the Testament of Ann Lee has a kind of foreign component, these are American productions, by and large, and that stuff is not as powerful. The Wake Up Dead Mans are not as powerful at the Academy Awards that as they would have been 25 years ago. It's interesting, it's just notable. It doesn't mean that the studio's like DOA or anything. I think that what. I think specifically what Searchlight has done for American movies over the last 25 years is really good and I hope they get their mojo back with this sort of thing. And we love Dan Lee. I'm glad that they picked it up, but it's a shame that it's not recognized here. Okay, let's go into a couple of the categories. Casting. I'll read the names really quickly for the listeners. So they know. Frankenstein, Hamnet, Marty, Supreme, One Battle After Another. The Secret Agent, Sentimental Value, Sinners, Seurat, Weapons and Wicked for good. Yeah, it's 10 films shortlisted for five spots.

[B]

It's cool.

[A]

Interesting mix. Weapons is a shock. I'm really happy about it. I wonder what that tells us about how strong Weapons is right now.

[B]

Yeah. Or I wonder what that tells us about how strong Amy Madigan is.

[A]

Agreed. Yeah. Could be very strong, which is exciting. It is exciting. She is hustling quite a bit. I think Mikey Madison did like, presented a screening of Weapons recently, which is interesting. Seurat being here is even crazier to me. Okay, Seurat, but no, no, no. It was just an accident and no, no other choice is. But Seurat in best Casting.

[B]

I don't. I guess Seurat is really on the.

[A]

Brain but that's what I'm saying. People like it.

[B]

Yeah. Or it's sticking with them. I mean, you know, it was also a surprise at the Golden Globes. I think you're right. Like, that's. It's. The big takeaways from this are Jay Kelly out, Seurat Inn. Maybe not in Best Picture, but, like, start paying attention.

[A]

I know you haven't seen it, but when you see it, you're gonna be like, how the fuck is this in.

[B]

Well, listen, people, contain.

[A]

I liked it. Like, I liked it with some issues, but, like, it is not an Academy movie. Like, I'm kind of shocked, but I think it tells us something about how this has all changed. Any other notables there? I feel like it's roughly, like, seven to eight best picture contenders in here.

[B]

The Secret Agent Train. Confirmed for sure.

[A]

Yeah. That's a very good sign for Secret Agent. We were on that last episode.

[B]

I think if Marty supreme were not in casting, it would be like a real siren.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

We're in trouble here, so I'm glad to see it.

[A]

Marty really only missed in Sound. You would have liked to have seen it in Sound for it to feel, like, really powerful. But. Okay, let's talk about international features. So I'll read the list. I think it's 15 titles.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So the titles include from Argentina, Belen from Brazil, the Secret Agent from France. It Was Just An Accident From Germany, Sound of Falling From India, Homebound. From Iraq, the President's Cake From Japan, Kokuho. From Jordan, all that's Left of you from Norway, Sentimental Value from Palestine. Palestine 36. From South Korea, no other Choice From Spain's Seurat. From Switzerland, Late Shift From Taiwan, Left Handed Girl. And from Tunisia, the Voice of Hindrajab. So I noted here that I've seen eight of these.

[B]

Yeah. Let me count.

[A]

There are a few more that I really would like to see. I'd like to see Kokuho. I'd like to see the President's Cake. I'm interested in Palestine 36. I'm interested in Late Shift. But I do think that the eight that I've seen are going to be enough in terms of being. And I think even maybe seven would be enough. And there is a world now at the Surratt Strength that it's five neon movies.

[B]

Yeah. Which has been, like, solidifying for the last couple months. And it was funny, like, in the summer.

[A]

They just bought everything at Cannes.

[B]

Yeah, at Cannes, they bought absolutely everything. And we all made these jokes, and then nothing was released for A while and it seemed kind of quiet and like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe this is a year for. Maybe everything will stay like an international feature and this will be a more an American year. And it's, it's funny that we now have, we've been like, we don't have an anatomy of a fall, but like maybe now we have three.

[A]

I, I think you're right. I think you're right. And it's, I've been thinking back on my like top 10 top 20 for this year and why it feels chalky. And I think one of the reasons why it feels chalky is that Kleiber Mendoza Filho, like he never had a movie distributed by Neon before. You know, like Jafar Panahi hasn't had a movie distributed at this in this way. So like movies like that that usually show up on year end lists are usually small international features. You know, maybe they get it as Sony Pictures Classics or Janus to release them and they get recognized and they get loved, but they don't get so widely seen. Yeah, these movies are getting really widely surrot. Getting widely seen.

[B]

It's crazy. And Neon is just absolutely going for it. Like then no other choice in particular. They're like, they were hosting like a summer intern contest. Did you see they're doing like really Gimmicky.

[A]

They invited 500 CEOs screening.

[B]

Really? It's really good. But they are, they have like taken a page out of the Timothee Chalamet playbook and the 824 playbook and are like, really like, okay, we're leaning into this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And sort of making these movies that we didn't immediately think were pop pop.

[A]

Through their marketing 100%. It's worked really well. Obviously we saw it with the NORA last year. They know what they're doing. They're really good at this. And they are. It's a different strategy for them this year than in years past where they have a lot of eggs in a lot of baskets. Whereas like a 24 has Marty Supreme. That's their movie. You know, Netflix has a lot of eggs in a lot of baskets. Sometimes it's better to have a bunch of movies. Sometimes it's better to just focus on one. We'll see what happens. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com TheBigPicture Terms and Conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by McAfee. You wanna live your online life worry free. But with all those identity thefts and data leaks we all keep hearing about, it's not easy. Choose McAfee's award winning protection to keep those scammers away. Keep your data and identity safe. Plans start at just 39.99 for your first year. All you have to do is find out [e-mail] Keep it real. Cancel anytime. Terms apply. Best documentary. Not a ton to dig into. We'll talk more about this category when both of us have had a chance to catch up on some of these. I've seen the major films. The perfect neighborhood. Come see me in the good light. Cover Up. Apocalypse in the tropics. I think my undesirable friends Part one is like. Is the best film on this list. Maybe there with COVID up and has won a couple of critics prizes already. If. If you can see it, we should talk about it. It is five hours long. Well, it is. It is. It is an intense durational.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Portrait of Russian journalists. Dissident journalists. But it's a very. It's a very good film. I don't know how many academy members will get through it.

[B]

Okay. Well, you know the documentary Darians. That branch is. They're punishing.

[A]

They are. But then when everyone has to vote, what happens? Is the question. Right. So they could nominate the film, but then everyone would have to vote on it. No predators on this list. No Orwell. Two plus two equals five. The Raoul Peck film. No. Put your soul on your hand and walk. I was surprised to see that missing if it were left to the people at large. I think the perfect neighbor is probably in position to win since it's been such a hit. But we shall see. I just want to touch on cinematography and music before we go.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I'll read the shortlisted films. Ballad of a small Player, Begonia, Die My Love, F1, Frankenstein, Hamnet, Marty Supreme, Nouvelle Vogue. One battle after another. Sentimental values Sinners Seurat Song, Song Blue, Sound of Falling, Train, Dreams. Wicked for Good.

[B]

You haven't dipped into your F1 theory on this episode and it's like some signs it's not. Not happening.

[A]

VFX sound, song, cinematography.

[B]

Yeah, I do think this is weird. This is a weird list.

[A]

I mean, not one, but.

[B]

Yeah, but as you have noted, no other choice. It was just an accident. And the Secret Agent, like three almost guaranteed best picture nominees and no other.

[A]

Choice in the Secret Agent are gorgeous.

[B]

Unbelievable. And then did, like, did not make it in. And so you could say to that, okay, well, maybe the cinematographer branch is. Is not really, you know, thinking internationally. But then you have Surat and Sound of Falling.

[A]

That did make it very odd.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Very odd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Songsong Blue, which is a good movie that I liked. I just said that I don't want to rag on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But no other choice. Not nominated. And Song Tsung Blue nominated.

[B]

I mean, Wicked for Good was shortlisted. So what are you gonna do?

[A]

Good point. Okay, Best original song.

[B]

Only 1k pop demon hunters. What are we doing?

[A]

And 2 wicked for good.

[B]

What are we doing? What. What is this category?

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I don't know. I'm. What is this category?

[A]

I don't know. This is bad.

[B]

These people are out of control.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Dua Lipa doesn't have an Oscar and there's only one K Pop Demon Hunters. Save yourselves. You were handed this gift on a platter. You could have nominated four songs. It could have been a K pop convention. This is. It's really stupid. These. It's stupid.

[A]

I also don't even understand the rules themselves because Testament of Ann Lee is ineligible because they are based off hymns. But Wicked for Good is an original song. These are two songs.

[B]

Those are.

[A]

The songs were written for them. They stink. But they were written for the movie, Right? Right. Yeah. I mean, we'll get to a similar quagmire and score when we get there. But you're right that there are a lot of inconsistencies with these kinds of rulings. I'll be rooting for I Lied to you from Sinners and Secondarily, I'll be rooting for as Alive as you Need Me to be by Nine Inch Nails, which I listened to on the Way to Work Today, which is an absolute ban.

[B]

That's beautiful.

[A]

Thanks. I do love Golden. Golden is like my third or fourth favorite song on that album. I've heard that album probably more than any other album this year.

[B]

But that's the thing. But it's what an opportunity, you know, to have like real songs that are part of the film.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

In the television that are wildly popular.

[A]

Amanda, you're 100% right.

[B]

And I just. This is. This has been a bad category every year. Except for the one year that they gave an Oscar to Lady Gaga and Mark Ronson.

[A]

Right. And you should say it.

[B]

I. I do. Every year. And nothing happens.

[A]

Let's dig into best score quickly. Okay, here are the nominees. Avatar Fire, or I should say the short list. Ds. Avatar Fire and Ash Bona. Captain America, Brave New World, Diane Warren, Relentless, F1, Frankenstein, Hamnet, Hedda, A House of Dynamite, J. Kelly, Marty, Supreme Nuremberg. One Battle after Another, Sinners, Surat Train Dreams, Tron Airs, Truth and Wake Up Dead man and Knives Out, Mystery and Wicked. That's 20 films.

[B]

I would like for you to perform the Captain America Brave New World score for me right now.

[A]

I don't know who composed it. I'll happily look it up.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The composer of that score is Laura Cartman. Laura Cartman. What did she do? I think she's previously an Oscar nominee. I'm gonna look up what she was nominated for. I can't remember what it was. American Fiction, which was a good score.

[B]

Oh, that's a good score. Very different.

[A]

A jazzy score.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm going Nuremberg.

[B]

Have you seen it yet?

[A]

I think Christmas, Christmas Day. I've got a screener at home.

[B]

No, I know, I saw it too. But it is over two hours long.

[A]

It's two and a half hours. Yeah.

[B]

No, I clocked that as well.

[A]

It's two hours of Russell Crowe sitting, which I will watch.

[B]

You just. You really have to do the. The Coral or the Corral.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Screener needs to be up because you.

[A]

Really have it yet.

[B]

You got to do a Nuremberg. The Coral doubleheader.

[A]

Yeah. The 78 year old Sean saunters into the Angelica on a Tuesday at 2pm that's what those movies are. Nothing against them. This is Sinners versus one Battle, I think. But to Jack's point, I think Hamnet being here and the idea of previously used music from Max Richter appearing in the film clearly didn't disqualify it. It is eligible to be nominated. Interesting. I think Hedda getting a look here is notable a movie that is otherwise not really super represented. House of Dynamite, otherwise not really represented here. Wake up, dead man. We mentioned otherwise not represented. So, you know, some stuff here, some warning signs. This is always helpful, I think for both of us to be like, all right, I gotta Watch this, this and this. Now.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

That leads us to best picture power rankings. Okay, so the rankings today are brought to you by Scout Motors. And although it's not a film, we do want to give an honorable mention to their all new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler. Iconic in the 70s, reimagined for tomorrow with plans for advanced four wheel drive. It'll be a showstopper. Now let's go through November 24th's power rankings. Number 10 was the secret agent. Number 9 was train dreams. Number 8 was avatar fire and ash. Number 7 was it was just an accident. Number 6, sentimental value. Number 5, Frankenstein. Number 4, Marty supreme. Number 3, sinners. Number 2, hamnet. Number 1. One battle after Another. Okay, now that list was pretty good.

[B]

Yeah. We might quibble with the ranking a little bit, but I. We're maybe only gonna have to strike one movie off the list and I don't even know about that. Or maybe two. We can discuss it.

[A]

Okay, let's. Where do you. I think the Testament of Ann Lee has been quietly put to bed. I think. Is this. Is this thing on? Has been quietly put to bed.

[B]

Okay, so you're going through the outliers.

[A]

I think a House of Dynamite is done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think Rental Family is done.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I think Springsteen is so done that we can take it off completely. We don't even have to mention those words anymore.

[B]

Though Jeremy Allen White did get a nomination. A Golden Globe nomination. That's Golden Globes Inc. Holding on to their truths.

[A]

The new Tier 1, to me, that is on the outside looking in and we can decide whether or not any of these films is going to make the list is as follows. Wicked for Good. Of course, we don't have it in right now, but it is still a contender.

[B]

They're hanging on.

[A]

And there's going to be a lot of below the line nominations for Wicked.

[B]

For good and probably at least two in best actress and supporting actress, maybe.

[A]

I think there's certainly supporting actors. There's a strong feeling that Cynthia Erivo could be out. Yeah, I think Chase Infinity could push her out.

[B]

That would.

[A]

We shall see. I think no other choice is still in Tier one.

[B]

I do as well.

[A]

The Liebja Hun nomination at the Globes seems to indicate some strength.

[B]

Yes. But the short list, it's present, but not that present.

[A]

You'd like it to be stronger? Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Cinematography, baffling.

[A]

I can't even imagine what the point is. F1. I'm putting it in tier one.

[B]

Okay, that's fine.

[A]

Welcome to tier one. F1. You earned it.

[B]

What is the tier one in F1? The sport called?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Okay, Jack. Wow. All right.

[A]

Is Song Sung Blue in Tier one?

[B]

Well, you listen. You're like, a little. You texted me out of the theater. Yeah, Right. How long was your drive home last night, by the way?

[A]

It was one hour and four minutes.

[B]

Okay. Not ideal. And you were like, I saw two films yesterday. You know what?

[A]

I saw the 2 hour and 40 minute Magellan and then immediately drove 4 minutes away and saw Song Songs. You know why I love film.

[B]

You know what I'm doing tomorrow?

[A]

What are you doing?

[B]

I'm doing a double header of Marty supreme straight into. Is this thing on? Do I even need to get in my car? No, I don't. I've lined it right up. Thank you so much.

[A]

The Song Men. Okay. Double feature.

[B]

So. But you texted me right out of the theater and you were, like, kind of surprised how much I liked. How much I loved. I think you just loved Song Sung Blue.

[A]

This is so not really in my bag, but it's just like a big, beautiful, steaming Christmas ham, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where it's just like, sometimes you just want, like, that pineapple on there and those cherries and get that glaze going, you know? And just, like, this is good for me. That's debatable. But, like, I'm. I'm loosening the belt tonight for Song Song Blue.

[B]

So let's be clear. It's not good for you. And also, would you actually eat a ham with pineapple?

[A]

In my days.

[B]

But, like, right now?

[A]

No.

[B]

And also, did you ever eat it with the mustard?

[A]

Fuck no.

[B]

That's psychotic behavior.

[A]

Disgusting. I would never eat that.

[B]

Okay, I hear what you're saying. I think that there is.

[A]

I'm just drizzling idea dust on this list.

[B]

Tier one's fine. Tier one's fine. Okay, Tier one, maple glaze on the list.

[A]

I'll add one more to the top of the list. And I think this is in keeping with. Wait, I gotta go back to my list.

[B]

Yeah, no, you're right.

[A]

I think this is in keeping with these shortlist nominations, which is Weapons. Weapons had been in Tier 2, but we see it in casting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we know Amy Madigan's gonna be nominated. I'm not saying it's going into Best Picture. I don't think it is.

[B]

Right. But you're putting it in Tier One.

[A]

I'm putting it in Tier one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That means Tier two becomes Rental Family. Is this thing on? The Testament of Ann Lee House of Dynamite. J. Kelly. Wake up, dead man.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Is that shock?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now doing our 10. I'm going to start from the bottom up. Is it possible sinners is in first place right now?

[B]

No.

[A]

Are you 100% sure? It won its first critics prize. It broke the one battle after another streak.

[B]

Yeah. I think right now we are in the phase of everyone's tired. It's been a long time. We've got a long time to go. We're looking for narratives, we're looking for some juice, we're looking for some maple glaze. I know. Three months and we're taking one battle for granted.

[A]

A little.

[B]

You have been. You yourself, Sean Fennesee, have been a little overconfident.

[A]

Yeah. Presumptuous.

[B]

And that's. You're right as a, as a man sitting at this table. But I think that that's reflective of where we are in the race and people are just kind of like, eh, maybe it's time to talk about sinners and that. Listen, it's good content. I still, I think it's two. Not one, but two. Yeah.

[A]

Are you, do you. Did you think Hamnet would be a bigger hit thus far?

[B]

No, I didn't like. You mean a box office hit.

[A]

I do.

[B]

I, I, I don't, I don't think that people were going to be rushing out open night like, you know, Paul Mescal is the Internet's boyfriend, but it's not really like a Colleen Hoover, go with your girls type of movie.

[A]

Bill Simmons loved it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Loved it. Texted me immediately after seeing it. Wow, wow, wow. Exclamation point. Wow.

[B]

Listen, this is what I love about Bill. He always surprises. Did he cry?

[A]

He didn't address that when I brought it to him. And then I told him what I thought of the movie, which is what we said on the pod, which is like, first hour I really didn't like, but then it really did get me at the end. And then I think he listened to the pod.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He was like, you are a heartless fool.

[B]

You are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think, I think he implied that you were.

[B]

Oh, I am. I mean, I said I literally cried on that podcast.

[A]

You did cry.

[B]

So that was a moment.

[A]

Well, listen, it's that movie aggregate, that moment Internet.

[B]

I cried and the muse started tearing up. So that's fine if I'm heartless, but.

[A]

I agree, we're not heartless. We're full of heart.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sin. So is Hamnet in three. It's. You think it's one battle. Sinners and Hamnet right now. Is there anything above it? Marty Coming.

[B]

No, I think that you would probably have to put either it was just an accident or secret agent. Oh, interesting. Or like sentimental value, you know? Where are we with that as a community?

[A]

I think it's right where it belongs.

[B]

Okay. Where's Bill with that?

[A]

I don't believe he's seen the film.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It is a Norwegian, so no guarantee. These.

[B]

Bill, if you watch it, please text me too.

[A]

Okay. Cause you want to be confirmed in your feelings of interestedness.

[B]

No, I'm just curious. You know, I value his opinion.

[A]

I think one battle still won. And you're right that I'm getting overconfident about that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I do think that Sinners is increasingly. I can see the spoilerdom because I can see the actors Awards ensemble win on stage. I can see score and song going early in the telecast to Sinners. I could see cinematography going to sitters. I could see a couple of things that would make us go, what? And to your point earlier, if somehow Onewee Masaku and Delroy Lindo get into those acting races.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then it's like, oh, wow, there's a ton of support. Flip side, film didn't do that well overseas. It's a. It's a black American film. Right. You know, it has obviously elements of Irish history in it, but it is. It is an American movie. And those movies don't have the strongest track record. But there's something in the air. I don't know what it is. I think eight shortlist IDs is a lot. And listen, I'm just. I'm flagging it for purposes of this conversation.

[B]

I think number two is where it should be.

[A]

Number two.

[B]

I don't think you're wrong. It still feels to me like the original screenplay winner and then some below the line stuff. And that's, you know, traditionally the coolest and best award for our favorite person. So that would. That would fit in in my logic as well.

[A]

Okay, then here's what I'll propose.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think Hammond is still three.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think it is very powerful. I think the people who love it, love it. So you'll see a lot of ones on those voting ballots.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think for. I think it was just an accident is an inspired idea.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And given all the news about Panahi and some of the critical wins, that has power.

[B]

I still. If I were. If we were filling out our predictions today, it would be one battle. Best Picture and Panahi and Best Director.

[A]

It's definitely Possible. Yeah, definitely possible. That would be.

[B]

Which is not like a novel idea. Many people are circling around that.

[A]

No, but a lot of people have been pointing out that the last three or four years, the Oscars have been going heavy for one movie instead of, you know, spreading the wealth. So we'll see if one battle is truly a juggernaut or not, or if Sinners is stronger than we think, then everything's on the table. I would then suggest that if we. It was just an accident is 4, Marty is 5, Frankenstein is 6. Sentimental value is 7.

[B]

You think Frankenstein is above sentimental value?

[A]

I do.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I think it will have more total nominations.

[B]

Okay. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. That's in the acting screenplay and best, do you think?

[A]

I don't think it's going to get into screenplay, but I do think it's going to get into directing. And I don't think Sentimental Value will get into directing, but I do think it will get into screenplay. I think it will.

[B]

Wait, what don't you think we'll get into? What's getting into what?

[A]

I think Sentimental Value will get into screenplay. And Frankenstein won't agree.

[B]

Agree. We're on the same page.

[A]

I think Frankenstein will get into directing and Sentimental Value won't agree.

[B]

And then I agree with you, even though. Do I agree with those choices? No, but I agree with your assessment.

[A]

Sentimental Value will get three acting noms, but it will no below the line nominations, whereas Frankenstein will get like 6 below the line nominations. That's my gut right now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Could be wrong. I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. So that's the top seven. You got all that, Jack?

[B]

Yeah, he does.

[A]

Okay. Avatar, Fire and Ash I don't think is getting in.

[B]

I don't either.

[A]

So we're gonna have to figure something out. All right, we've got Train Dreams and the secret agent at 10 and nine from last month. I feel comfortable just moving those to 8 and 9.

[B]

8 and 9. Okay. And you still think that Train Dreams is ahead of Secret Agent?

[A]

I think it's pretty tight. I think they're both very well liked. Very well liked. Secret Agent, I think, is a little bit of. A. Little bit of a tougher sit for some people because of its length and sort of all over the placedness. However, Brazil, very popular, very strong in the Academy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not been to the country. I'd like to go one day.

[B]

It was lovely.

[A]

You went when I went?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did we talk about this?

[B]

No, I went with my friend Stephanie when I was 25. I got the most sunburn I've ever got in my life.

[A]

Interesting. What cities did you go to?

[B]

I just went to Sao Paulo and then to the. To the beach. But I don't remember the name of the beach, but that it was beautiful.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[B]

I'd like to go back. I'd like to go to Rio.

[A]

So 10 now if we're pulling from tier one, the tier one choices are wicked for good. No other choice. F1. Song Tsung, Blue Weapons.

[B]

Okay, what's going.

[A]

Okay, so here's. We forgot to mention one film.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Seurat.

[B]

You think it's going all the way That. I mean, that would be awesome.

[A]

I mean, we're talking. We're just talking on a pod.

[B]

Let's. What do you want to put.

[A]

I haven't even seen the film.

[B]

You want to put it into your.

[A]

Do you know what's going on in this movie? Do you. Are you familiar with what happens enough.

[B]

That I don't want to know the rest. Like, stop talking to me. And I couldn't go to the most recent screening. I can't remember whether I had to go see like.

[A]

Do you know the premise of the movie?

[B]

Yeah. It's a rave in the desert. Yeah.

[A]

That's how it opens.

[B]

Yeah. No, I don't know the rest. I don't. I don't want to know anything.

[A]

I'm not going to tell you anything.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm just asking questions.

[B]

Great. And I'm giving you answers. So now we have to talk about other things.

[A]

So you can't say for sure whether you choice.

[B]

Whether it's an academy.

[A]

No other choice, or weapons or F1. I mean, to me it's like the bold choice right now at this stage of things is F1 Seurat or no other choice. That's what those are. I think the real contenders now. You know what? It might just be Wicked for good.

[B]

It might.

[A]

That would be boring. But that also is going to have a bunch of below the line.

[B]

Will win the cinematic and box office achievement award at the Golden Globes and get that onstage moment. In that category are Avatar, Fire and Ash, Wicked for Good and K Pop Demon Hunters. And then, you know, I think this.

[A]

Is dependent on the first two weeks of Avatar's box office.

[B]

Okay. Cinematic and Box Office Achievement 2025. I can read the last. The rest.

[A]

Please read the nominees.

[B]

Well, F1 is also in there. Mission Impossible. The Final Reckoning. Sinners Weapons. Wicked for good. Zootopia 2.

[A]

Oh, Zootopia 2. You think it's gonna make like $1.6 billion.

[B]

It's not. They're not just looking at the box office sheet.

[A]

It's a cinematic achievement.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you seen the film?

[B]

I'm gonna take Nox.

[A]

It's an extraordinary exploration of the way that we allow societies to divide us.

[B]

Okay. I just, I'm saying there's also. Is this. Let's see, Sinners is nominated in drama and one battle comedy at the close. Comedy, yeah. So enhancement was not that strong at the Globes. So you think Sinners takes drama, one battle takes comedy?

[A]

I do.

[B]

And then in this category, you think it'll be Zootopia over K Pop Demon Hunter's Avatar and Wicked for good?

[A]

I do.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Unless Zootopia is gonna win an animated feature, which I don't think it is. I think K Pop Demon Hunters are so that.

[B]

You think that's how they're gonna do the split.

[A]

Maybe they give it to Wicked for good.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Maybe just because. But the truth is, is that that movie has not succeeded nearly as much as the first film at the box office.

[B]

Okay. I guess the follow up question is, do you think that that stage moment for whichever of these films matters in terms of best picture nomination? Okay.

[A]

Do you?

[B]

I don't know. I think people are impressionable and seeing people on stage confers an idea of. I mean, we've always said this about.

[A]

You get a Golden Globe for cinematic and box office achievement. What do they give you, like a crunch bar? Like, what is that even? What's that worth? I love crunch bars.

[B]

I do too. Remember when they did like bunch of crunch?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

That's so good.

[A]

Yeah, that was good.

[B]

We've always said that the ensemble award at the SEG Awards, rebranded as the Actor Awards, was important in terms of seeing everybody together.

[A]

But that's because it's the last big thing that everyone sees before Oscar voting. That's why.

[B]

Well, this is the last. Is this. Are the Globes after the nominations? Ballots are in. What's the voting timeline? Oscars voting Timeline. Timeline. 2026. This is very exciting, bro.

[A]

I'm in New Jersey. I'm trying to just relax.

[B]

Nominations voting begins on January 12, the morning after. So there.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Okay. I'm just.

[A]

So you think the Cinematic and Box Office Achievement award. No, I just want to make sure I'm getting this right. You said it's the most significant bellwether for best. The best Picture Race in 2026 is what you said. Right?

[B]

Just saying lizard brains. People have seen the people on stage and then they got to open their portals and, you know, testify that they've watched every single movie.

[A]

What's going at 10? Make a choice.

[B]

Well, let's see. Let's be bold. Let's do Surat.

[A]

I love it. That's exactly the right choice for the list. Yeah. Okay, let's read our list now. At number 10, Surat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oliver Lash's Spanish film about a. Well, I won't say because I don't want to spoil it for you. Number nine, the Secret Agent. Number eight, Train Dreams. Number seven, Sentimental Value. Number six, Frankenstein. Number five, Marty Supreme. Number four. It was Just an Accident. Number three, Hamnet. Number two, Sinners. And number one, one battle after another. Today's best picture power rankings was brought to you by Scout Motors. Bold and cinematic, just like these films, the all new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler are planning to deliver that and more. Join the [e-mail] Concept vehicles not available for sale. Features and performance specifications are preliminary and subject to change. Joining the wait list does not guarantee purchase. Visit scoutmotors.com for details. Well, that does it. So can I ask a question very quickly? Of course. Avatar Fire and Ash dropping out. More specifically, your personal reactions to the film or something larger collectively you think is being felt by the industry?

[B]

Larger, I think.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

It's just the juice isn't there in the same way? I mean, you know, we also estimated that the box office would be much lower than Avatar the Way of Water and the critical reactions are. It's not just us. Many people are saying that it's not as exciting as the first two and it's the same logic we're using for Wicked for good.

[A]

It's exactly right. Way of water was a 67 on Metacritic. Avatar Fire and Ashes is 61 and will probably go down a bit over the next couple of days. So I just think there is like the. Everything that Amanda said, that lack of the thrill of the news, some of the repetition of the story beats those things are working against it. But it's a good question and we could be wrong because, you know, Ben against Big Jim Dicey.

[B]

So far it has not served us.

[A]

So did we have Way of Water in. In. In last time? In 22?

[B]

I don't remember.

[A]

I don't remember either. Nevertheless, the next episode of this pod is going to be very cool because we are talking about Ella McKay and is this thing on two movies that I have no idea if the audience of this show are going to see. Ella McKay just opened to one of the single lowest wide release weekend box office numbers in the history of film.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

However, the film is also actively being memed on the Internet. I've also seen it and I have many strong thoughts.

[B]

As do I.

[A]

Is this thing on you haven't seen yet. I also have strong thoughts tomorrow night.

[B]

So it's going to be real. Coming on hot. It's also we're at that time of year where it's crunch time. It's crunch time for the movies. It's crunch time for you and me. And this has the prime Friday afternoon before Christmas, second recording of the day spot. So it will have to be seen and heard to be believed. These films and also the podcast we're.

[A]

Going to leaven that discussion with 10 overlooked and underseen movies from the year. You'll pick a few, I'll pick a few. We'll put our list together. Will say, hey, maybe over the holidays, watch these movies. Sound good?

[B]

That sounds great.

[A]

Okay. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thanks to CT for filling in in studio. We'll see you next time.