← The Big Picture
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- [00:00]
Amanda Dobbins
Hello big pic psychos. You already know. We're coming to Chicago this summer and we're so excited for our live show on July 21st. But there's more.
- [00:09]
Sean Fennessey
We're heading to the Music Box Theater to watch number 14 on our 25 for 25 list on the big screen with you.
- [00:17]
Amanda Dobbins
We're keeping the movie a secret, but we promise you won't be disappointed and we'll have a conversation right after to talk through what we all just watched.
- [00:26]
Sean Fennessey
Tickets go on sale this Friday, June 13th at 10:00am Central Time. More information will be available soon@theringer.com events.
- [00:35]
Amanda Dobbins
Again, we're going to be screening and Talking about number 14 on our 25 for 25 list live at the Music Box Theater in Chicago on Sunday, July 20th and you can join us.
- [00:47]
Sean Fennessey
Tickets go on sale this Friday, June 13th at 10am Central Time with details to come on the ringer.com events. We hope you'll join us.
- [00:56]
Chris Ryan
Now you can watch the Best of Hulu on Disney like season two of nine, Perfect Strangers with Hulu on Disney and Star Wars Andor Season 2 on Disney. All of these and more now streaming with Hulu on Disney with a bundle subscription available with bundle plans starting at $10.99 a month. Terms apply. Visit disneyplus.com hulu for detail. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever finish a movie and the next.
- [01:23]
Kevin Smith
Thing you know you're totally obsessed?
- [01:25]
Chris Ryan
Like I'm talking about ordering a book about 70s film lighting or buying the soundtrack on vinyl kind of obsessed. Whatever it is, prime helps you get.
- [01:33]
Kevin Smith
More out of whatever passions you're into or getting into.
- [01:37]
Chris Ryan
Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your.
- [01:40]
Kevin Smith
Obsession wherever it goes.
- [01:53]
Sean Fennessey
I'm Sean Fennesee.
- [01:54]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is the.
- [01:56]
Sean Fennessey
Big Picture 8 conversation show about ballerinas and not so Silent Bobs. Later in this episode, a big name comes off the old bucket list. Kevin Smith joins me for one hour. Or perhaps to put a finer point on it. Kevin Smith, the writer director of such beloved classics as Clerks, Chasing Amy and Dogma delivered an hour long megastory on this show about the birth of disappearance and reemergence of his fascinating, hilarious Catholicism. Satire, comedy, action epic. If you love Smith the filmmaker and Smith the storyteller, you will definitely want to stick around for that conversation. Amanda, Chris and I will also briefly Teleport back to 1999 to dig into Dogma a bit as well. Also on this episode, we are about to dig into from the World of John Wick Ballerina, as well as the Filippo Brothers follow up to 2023's horror smash talk to Me. It's called Bring Her Back to Do those things. Cris Ryan is here coming to us from Zoom. Hello, Chris.
- [02:51]
Kevin Smith
I love dance and I love demons and I love coming on this podcast. Thanks for having me, guys.
- [02:57]
Sean Fennessey
Amanda, let's get right into Ballerina. Okay. You've been anticipating this movie for the 12 years since it was completed production. It shot in the 2010s and we've been waiting a long time for it. This is of course, the new movie, the fifth film in the Ballerina story. It's directed by Len Wiseman, sort of. We'll get to that. Written by Shay Hatton, it stars Ana de Armas, Gabriel Byrne, Catalina Sandino Moreno, Norman Reedus, Angelica Huston, Lance Reddick in his final screen appearance, Ian McShane, back into the Wick world. And of course, Keanu Reeves, John Wick himself. It's a movie that takes place, I guess, during the events of John chapter 3 Parabellum. A movie that I don't remember as well as I would have liked. It's about a woman named Eve McCaro who we've seen in the Wick world before. That's the Armistice character. She's begun her training in the assassin traditions of the Ruska Roma, which is also something that you endured to become the co host of this podcast. And along the way, she encounters the hidden world of the Continental and a secret cult responsible for the death of a family member. To avenge this family member, she must glow on a globe trotting killing spree. Amanda, I will start with you.
- [04:03]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes.
- [04:04]
Sean Fennessey
Before you begin your killing spree, did you like the movie Ballerina?
- [04:09]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, I would say this is a tenuous at best connection to the world of ballet. So that was. That was tough for me. No, I was kind of disappointed by this, I'm going to be honest. And because as you said, is it really a globe trotting? I don't know. They go one place that seemed nice and everywhere else is various nightclubs, you know, that are lit purple like every other nightclub in the John Wick universe. I was a little underwhelmed by the action of it all, which. And I guess we can talk a little bit about flamethrowers and like your general relationship to fire at a later date. I'd like to, I think that that could be some psychology, but there's like, I don't know, it was like fine, I guess, but it doesn't have any of the wit and flair that I associate with certainly John Wick 4, but like really the whole franchise. And also what Ana de Armas is capable of. You know, at this point, I think the no Time to die scene is like an albatross hanging around her neck because like, we know she can do it and we know that that's possible. And no situation seems to be able to be replicated where like she can do it again. But yeah, to be honest, I was somewhat bored.
- [05:24]
Sean Fennessey
Chris, I'd love to hear your opinion about this. I think I echo Amanda in many ways.
- [05:30]
Kevin Smith
Yeah. Not a huge fan of this movie, although I did find some stuff in it to like. So especially the back half of it or the back third of it when the ballerina character goes to an Alps village full of killers. I thought was a pretty ingenious little invention and had some of the charms of like John Wick when an entire city gets the alert to kill him kind of thing. And all of a sudden there's like attacks coming from all these different directions. That was like playful. It had charm, it had invention a little bit. And that's what this movie was kind of lacking because the first hour and a half almost is really just like this sort of trudging vengeance origin story, training origin story. Not nearly enough training. I wanted way more Black Swan, like kill School stuff. That would have been dope and just a lot of like franchise service of like dragging old people from the John Wick movies in to kind of do their. Their five minutes of Ian McShaning, do their five minutes of Angelica Houstoning. And yeah, it's a tough one. Obviously this. This has had like so many major surgeries done on it that it's kind of a miracle. It's as good as it is.
- [06:44]
Sean Fennessey
It would have been an interesting experience to watch this movie not knowing any of the backstory. In fact, when we talked about it after our trip to Cinemacon, Matt pointed out to me, he was like, I feel like you're holding something against this movie because you just know that there has been reshoot city with it. And we know that Chad Stahelski, the auteur of the John Wick universe, came in and apparently had to kind of save it by installing a set of new action set pieces.
- [07:07]
Kevin Smith
Bellamy said that to you? Yeah, he said you were holding something.
- [07:10]
Sean Fennessey
Against a movie he did, which, you know, it was kind of a direct shot. I'm usually pretty open minded about these things, but I think that this movie has got an incredibly mediocre script and a tone that doesn't actually fit the world that it is meant to exist inside of. I think as Amanda suggested, the Wick movies over time have become more and more sort of like self referential and self aware about their place not just in the action universe, but in the silent comedy universe that just the world of physical filmmaking. And this is just a regular old mediocre revenge movie. If it was extricated from the Wick world, maybe we wouldn't have had standards that are as high as they are. Especially because there are a couple of times where the action shows you what it could be. That's the sort of like the creativity. I personally thought a lot of the flamethrower stuff was new. Like I just not seen that before. And so that's part of what Wick does, which is like they show you a kind of way of creating something that is almost like external to the story of the movie. It's just like, are you ready for some cool shit? And I enjoyed that. But almost everything else around it I was like, this is just feels very pro forma. It feels very science.
- [08:16]
Kevin Smith
Are we about to get to Science Corner? Are you gonna Science Corner us?
- [08:18]
Amanda Dobbins
No, no, this is more Psychology Corner. I mean you, you really do. Anytime fire comes out of any sort of gun vessel, I also think of that battle scene in John Wick 4, which like I thought was cool cuz it's filmed, you know, from like up above and is at least interesting. But you were just like, there's a.
- [08:36]
Kevin Smith
Gun and it has fire.
- [08:38]
Amanda Dobbins
And it's like. Well, I mean like it's okay. Like I. First of all, I really don't think Science Corner. Here we go.
- [08:45]
Kevin Smith
Welcome to Amanda Dobbins Science Corner.
- [08:52]
Amanda Dobbins
That the pressure of the hose.
- [08:54]
Kevin Smith
This is what I was going to ask.
- [08:55]
Amanda Dobbins
Could actually withstand the fire in the way that it is demonstrated in Ballerina.
- [09:03]
Kevin Smith
You guys should recreate this on stage in Chicago.
- [09:09]
Sean Fennessey
Look, Chris, what will you be doing?
- [09:11]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [09:11]
Kevin Smith
In Chicago?
- [09:12]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah.
- [09:13]
Kevin Smith
Am I invited?
- [09:15]
Sean Fennessey
Are you not. Are you not coming?
- [09:16]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [09:16]
Kevin Smith
Am I gonna. Am I announced? I didn't know if I was gonna be like a surprise guest. Like I was gonna.
- [09:20]
Sean Fennessey
We don't wanna sell tickets on the back of your. Your fandom, you know, we wanna see if we can do it all by ourselves.
- [09:25]
Amanda Dobbins
Right, right.
- [09:26]
Sean Fennessey
But the tickets sold. We did actually.
- [09:28]
Amanda Dobbins
So they're gone.
- [09:30]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah. People were very mad, by the way. They were very mad that they sold that in one minute. I don't really know what to do about that. I received angry messages on social media about the Fact that the show sold out, I'm like, you could move it.
- [09:39]
Kevin Smith
To a larger venue like the United. Like where the roles play.
- [09:43]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah, that's a good idea. We should definitely do that. Anyway, back to Ballerina. We were talking about literally the final action sequence of the movie in some detail here. So if you don't want to hear about those things, don't listen.
- [09:54]
Kevin Smith
It's in the trailer.
- [09:56]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, but. Okay, so in addition to. I don't really know whether the fire hose can stand up to the blowtorch in that way, even at high water pressure or whatever. Who was that guy, you know, with.
- [10:10]
Kevin Smith
Oh, he was like the fight. Like, he was a late breaking second to last boss that they obviously kind of were like, he's supposed to be like Mr. Joshua and lethal Weapon.
- [10:22]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [10:23]
Kevin Smith
Or, you know, like blonde badass who's like the super killer of the Village and is Gabriel Burns boy.
- [10:28]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay. But he kind of showed up from nowhere, and I understood that he was like part of the cult, but, like, I didn't really feel he was in.
- [10:37]
Kevin Smith
He was in Prague when Norman Reedus's daughter is kidnapped.
- [10:41]
Sean Fennessey
Ella.
- [10:41]
Amanda Dobbins
Right, right, right, right.
- [10:42]
Kevin Smith
So he makes an earlier appearance in the film. Okay, sorry for paying attention to this.
- [10:47]
Amanda Dobbins
Where is Norman Reedus? I mean, I read.
- [10:50]
Kevin Smith
This is a great. This is a great example of what. What maybe happened to this film because Norman Reedus arguably was being set up to be, I don't know, like the McShane to Anna de Armas's John Wick or whatever.
- [11:04]
Sean Fennessey
I thought even a battle co conspirator, somebody who might have participated more aggressively in some of the fighting. And in fact, he's just kind of shanked shortly after he's introduced, and he spends the rest of the movie in a hospital bed, which we learned at the end of the movie. So he doesn't. Norman Reedus, you know, one of the badasses of television, I guess, over the last 10 years. You would think if you're going to put him in your movie Boondock Saint, that he is. That he'd be shooting people.
- [11:26]
Kevin Smith
And he does, especially with crossbows, which is his preferred weapon of choice on Walking Dead.
- [11:30]
Sean Fennessey
I believe so, yeah. I mean, that's a good example of just trying to remember a movie that you saw five days ago and that it is kind of slipping through your fingers a little bit just because it's just ultimately not very good. I would say it is not bad, but you use the word boring, Amanda. And there were times when I did feel like I was kind of checking out from the film and, you know, it didn't really do very well at the box office. And it's not terribly surprising because it doesn't feel like the buzz is very good on it. I don't know if, like, could you guys sense that it was kind of Frankenstein together or did you just know that going in?
- [12:03]
Kevin Smith
I, I, well, so I, I think that the second half of the movie or the once she gets to the, to the village feels like a different, more fun movie or a more interesting movie, but also has a lot of weight of like, that's where your sister happens to live. You know, who you've seen earlier and did feel a connection across the hotel lobby. And all the stuff that gets, like, exposition dumped at the end about, like, this community of killers and how no one's ever allowed to leave, which I actually thought was like, pretty interesting, but just you can't really, like, cool. Take that on after an hour and a half of, like, Rumoruska and like, her dad living on the beach in Valencia or whatever. Did you like the local Catalan?
- [12:46]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, I did, I did. I noticed it, you know, say great, great out village, like that I was really into that, that it looked cool.
- [12:53]
Kevin Smith
And when, and when like, everybody's who's just like a waiter or like a family walking by just pulls out fucking automatic weapons, it's like, oh, shit. This is actually like the John Wick vibe that I know and love. I will mention, Sean, you asked about the Frankenstein thing. I did a little bit of spelunking onto the Internet and read about the script that this is based on, which is a 2017 spec script by Shay Hatton, when he was just kind of right out of college and was very hot for a second, because I guess there is a cottage industry, or at least appears to be, of people writing like, spec John Wick spin offs to just kind of throw out there and like, you know, kind of throw into the. This is Lionsgate, right? Like the machine of John Wick. Because I think for a while there it looked like John Wick was going to be like, we're going to pump one of these out every two years and we're going to do TV extensions and spinoffs and all this stuff. So the script itself, which I read like a little bit of, from what I could see on different screenwriting sites, is very, very Shane Black 80s vibe. Like, it's like the pros and the descriptions are all very flippant and funny and tongue and cheek and like, throughout the movie and the screenplay, the early screenplay Version it's like her kill count starts when she's a kid and it's like, it's all like kind of like.
- [14:10]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, it does in this movie too.
- [14:12]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, but like it's like. But in a traumatic way noted on screen and as like a joke. Like, yeah, you know, like Eve Makaro kill count one. And it. She's like a six year old who pushes somebody down the stairs. You know, it's like supposed to be a little bit more comic, I think. And I wish we got to see an adormus do that because that's a little bit more of the knives out Anadormis. Like, that's a little bit more of the. Like she can do a couple of different things, but I feel like she's really trapped in like she's almost in the little glass ballerina case in this movie where it's like you have to just get tattoos and be gothic and be vengeful.
- [14:47]
Amanda Dobbins
There were two tells for me in terms of Frankensteining. One was Ana de Armas hair, which her like her slicked back style, which I honestly thought looked great. And I'm dealing with a lot of flyaways right now, so I was really invested in it. But it starts as soon as she becomes like a Ruska Roma. And you could say it's part of the characterization, but there is such a difference in the grooming and the early origin story stuff and all of the ballet stuff. And then once she's acting, then I'm like, oh, okay, this was. This didn't all happen at the same time. Like the conception didn't all happen together. And then obviously Keanu, right, who just shows up in almost tacked on in a couple places. And you can really feel the way that he's worked into the script and also what he's asked to do is very separate from the rest of the movie.
- [15:43]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah, I want to talk about both of those things that you guys brought up on. Chris point about the tone of the movie. There's a middle ground that I guess I'm looking for in an action movie which is neither trauma core revenge, which is what the movie ends up becoming, nor wink action, which sounds like what you're describing, Chris, this idea of like a very, very openly silly self referential, almost like Grand Theft Auto style video game.
- [16:08]
Kevin Smith
Well, I think he would like the screenplay would probably be like, it's like supposed to be like long kiss good night.
- [16:13]
Sean Fennessey
Totally.
- [16:13]
Kevin Smith
Yeah.
- [16:14]
Chris Ryan
Yeah.
- [16:15]
Sean Fennessey
But I think that, that we've lost that tone. Like we've lost the ability to Hit that tone of like, we're having fun and we know what we're doing and having fun, but we're not breaking the fourth wall. It would have been interesting to see them attempt that. And then, you know, related to that, this, like, obviously sweaty addition of Keanu Reeves kind of pointlessly to this movie. And the fact that I don't know if it's the studio or the filmmakers or somebody just getting nervous that the movie wasn't going to hit and just feeling the need to literally have the ballerina walk past John Wick in a hallway halfway through the movie. Just to be like, in case you forgot, because we put the words John Wick in the title of the movie. John Wick is a part of this world. In fact, this was a scene From John Wick 3 that you may recall now we're going to show you him and you're kind of sort of going to get a fight sequence with him, but mostly he's going to be talking on phones, looking through a sniper rifle. Just like extremely banal, pointless, just like juiceless in general. And like, Keanu is amazing. I love the Wick movies. I think they're getting better and better. I hope they do a John Wick 5, even though it would make no sense relative to what happened in John Wick 4.
- [17:23]
Kevin Smith
Save that guy's knees, man.
- [17:25]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah, I know, I know. I almost felt bad. The other thing I read, too, is that apparently Keanu was up for a role in the Acolyte that eventually went to the star from Squid Game, which I did not know, but I guess he didn't do that because he had to do this instead. Which is an interesting sliding doors of like, we almost got Keanu as a. As a Jedi, but it was on a show that nobody watched or cared about, which is sort of like this beautiful little metaphor for what's happened to the franchise, you know, like, literally one of the greatest franchise action movie stars in the history of movies. In Keanu, somebody who's born to be a Jedi in so many ways, his whole being as a performer is this kind of inner calm, this sort of trying to endure the epic pain of galactic struggle. And then he couldn't do it or wouldn't do it or didn't do it because he had to walk past Ana De Armas in a hallway in the fifth John Wick movie is a little depressing.
- [18:21]
Kevin Smith
Can I just make another point about the tension between building franchises and telling good stories?
- [18:27]
Sean Fennessey
The.
- [18:27]
Kevin Smith
The idea that that's the character introduction sucks because the cool character Introduction is the one that maybe they had in mind, which is he's on the train. And the train arrives in this snowy village. And he's the one that's been sent by. By McShane to take care of this, but like, winkingly, because he's gonna have this conversation with Eve and they'll kind of like chastely fight and he won't let her. You know, he's like, you have until midnight. All that stuff is like good mechanics for action scenes. Like, there's a clock. We're gonna have a fight, but I'm not gonna hurt you. You know, like, I understand your pain, all this stuff. But his arrival would have been really cool if that was the arrival. That's like a Sergio Leone arrival. He's arriving on the train, but instead they're like, people are gonna get nervous. They don't think John Wick's in this movie. So we have to show him in the first 35 minutes. And it has to be a scene from John Wick 3 that they may remember that kind of places this within the timeline. And it's like, dude, you fucked it up. You could have just had John Wick arrive on a train in a snowy mountain village and step off and we.
- [19:30]
Amanda Dobbins
Would have been like, whoa.
- [19:31]
Kevin Smith
Instead it's like, yes, I remember this scene from John Wick 3. I have been paid back for my. My consumerism. You know, it's just like, think. Guys.
- [19:40]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah, can I pitch a. A concept to you guys that I was thinking about as I was watching the movie? So Stahelski comes in and he reshoots a bunch of the action that Len Wiseman shot. They re. He does his stunt design that he is acclaimed for. And you do get more juice. You get this great scene in this restaurant where he goes to B. You know, she goes to battle with this assassin who comes to kill her. She dispatches him fairly quickly. And then she goes to battle with people who literally work in the restaurant and live in town. It's probably the most pure, like, fun sequence in the movie. And I thought Anadarmus acquitted herself very well. Especially in that sort of like, close up, hand to hand stuff where you're really like, not cutting away to the stunt doubles. And that's just. There's like, literally references to other films in that sequence. You can see the Stahelski touch of, like, loving Buster Keaton and loving the slapstick comedy that is interspersed in those movies. The plates smashing over the heads. Would it be better ultimately, in the world of movies, if Rather than continue to make John Wick movies or make his new Highlander movie. If Chad Stahelski was just the action fixer for every movie, if it was just. We have an action movie, it's fine. It's the Amateur starring Rami Malek. But three different times during the movie, Chad Stahelski will give you an absolute banger sequence that makes it feel worth the price of admission. Is that a better. As a movie watcher, as a movie consumer, is that a better fate for us for his. His tools, his talents to be utilized?
- [21:10]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't think so, because then I think you end up with a lot of movies like this where there are some good action sequences, but it's divorced from the rest of the movie, the rest of the story. And so you get the lame hallway reveal. You get this mishmash Frankenstein. You know, we've seen what happens when you build movies around action sequences. And it's called Mission Impossible, Final Reckoning, which Chris is still just, like, really big mad about. And I don't think we've explored, like, his level of anger. What we like about Stahelski and about the John Wick movies is that he can make the action of a piece with the film itself, and when they're working together is when it's really great. So I think he's very good at what he does, and it's clearly the best part of this movie. But, no, completely agree. I say.
- [22:04]
Kevin Smith
No, I completely agree with her. I think we've gotten a little too over. Over invested in, like, designing a film around action sequences and then writing the script after the fact rather than, like, be, like, what would make. What. What are the steps that lead us to a place that would be a cool setting for an action sequence? And what are the elements of the character that would actually make it? Because I. I was kind of thinking about how she doesn't do much dance in her fighting, which, yeah, would be interesting. I mean, I think one doesn't do.
- [22:32]
Amanda Dobbins
Much dance before either. It's like one scene to, like, techno Swan Lake, and she can't stay up on her leg, you know, which as we learn on center. Not. She keeps slipping on her blood because it's tough, and ballet is tough. But as we learn in center stage, you got to stay on your leg.
- [22:48]
Kevin Smith
I would say that I enjoy the fact that, like, Anna de Armas has, like, a, like, guttural yell when she's getting her ass kicked that I. I found new and original and. And something that I'm honoring. You Know, I don't want to replicate it now because, like, there. There are people outside my window and I don't want to start screaming.
- [23:08]
Amanda Dobbins
She does get her ass kicked a lot.
- [23:10]
Kevin Smith
It's awesome when she fucks people up.
- [23:13]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah. But she's like, the first scene, she's just kind of like rolling, like, doing a lot of somersault. That's sort of like a toddler ballet class, you know, Just like, ah. And then she gets back up. I understand it's part of the training, but I was kind of like wincing a little for her. I was like, oh, come on, Anna.
- [23:31]
Kevin Smith
You know, you mentioned Mission Impossible, Amanda, which I am still. I just want you to put in the paper that I'm not mad. I'm laughing about Mission Impossible, Final Reckoning. But Fenasy, I think you had like a point where you're like, this movie can just start here. And it was like lopping off like 40 minutes or an hour of it there. I definitely, like, through watching trailers and just like, knowing about John Wick and anybody who goes and sees this movie is gonna say, I bet this chick is motivated by revenge, you know, and the 15 minute sequence in a castle in Spain, wherever the hell that was, and all the training and stuff like that. Like, honestly, if this movie starts with Anna de Armas in that bathroom with her hair slicked down.
- [24:14]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [24:15]
Kevin Smith
Taking a picture of the dead guy and then being, like, doing the elevator joke when she gets off, which she's like, well, I was very scared.
- [24:22]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, it's true.
- [24:24]
Kevin Smith
10, 20% better if that that's the case.
- [24:27]
Sean Fennessey
It's ironic because part of the appeal of the John Wick film is sort of like, so this guy's just mad because they killed his dog. It's such a simple, undersold concept. It's so small. And then it leads to some of the most epic action gun fu that we've ever seen.
- [24:44]
Kevin Smith
Yeah.
- [24:45]
Sean Fennessey
And that was the joke of the movie. So to just give us this kind of retrograde, traditional, like, they killed my father. They just did. Inigo Montoya, ballerina. It's just weird.
- [24:55]
Kevin Smith
But the reverse is cool. If she's just like, I'm an assassin. But for some reason, these people with X's branded into their wrists keep showing up to fuck me up at my jobs. What is going on? I'm going to follow the trail. It's kind of neat, you know what I mean? I kind of. I kind of dig that. It's just like. But the entire thing is broadcast from the beginning. If you know, that she's, like, always been searching for somebody with this mark on their wrists.
- [25:18]
Sean Fennessey
Let me ask you guys, do you think there will be another John Wick movie that isn't a John Wick movie? Another spin off, another extension of this world?
- [25:26]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, this didn't do very well, but they're clearly trying to set it up because it's the Roma Ruska versus the what. What are the guys with the X's on their wrists? It's like, what's the official name of the village?
- [25:37]
Kevin Smith
You know, I don't. I don't know that they ever really got a name. I think it's, like, referred to as a cult, but, like, burns. Like, we have great benefits here. You know?
- [25:44]
Amanda Dobbins
Like, I mean, it seems like a good deal if you're just, like, living in this bucolic village and also, like, highly trained. You know what I mean? So. And for the most part, it doesn't seem like people come to their village very often. So, you know, it's.
- [26:02]
Sean Fennessey
It's. It's Hallstatt, Austria, is the town. But Chris is right that it's only referred to as the cult or the cultist.
- [26:07]
Amanda Dobbins
The cult.
- [26:08]
Kevin Smith
And it's apparently a big, big secret. But that guy who has the gun shop is like, don't tell anybody, but it's right there.
- [26:16]
Sean Fennessey
Another terrible scene of just, like, showing guns and explaining things. Y. Yeah. This movie is a disappointment to me. I was hoping it would be better. And it comes at an interesting time. It's like the first kind of, like, dip in the summer, you know, it felt like things were just, like, hot, right? The movies were very hot for, like, six consecutive weeks, and they slowed down a little bit. Speaking of slowing down a little bit, Bring Her Back has been a somewhat of a mild disappointment at the box office this summer as well. This is the Filippo Brothers movie that I mentioned. Talk to Me was one of the Surprise films of 2023. It was a Sundance acquisition by A24, released in the middle of the summer. A high school possession horror movie from these YouTubers who displayed a style that I did not know they had. Based on the YouTube videos that they made. This movie is them diving even deeper into traumatic, upsetting horror. Amanda, you have not seen this movie. I would not recommend that you see it for a variety of reasons.
- [27:16]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay, so let me guess. Don't even tell me. Okay, so, like, deep gore and. And kids in peril.
- [27:26]
Kevin Smith
Absolutely.
- [27:27]
Sean Fennessey
Beyond that. And.
- [27:30]
Amanda Dobbins
Let'S see, what else do I really not like? Is it. I mean, is there, like, a Supernatural element to it.
- [27:36]
Chris Ryan
Yep.
- [27:36]
Sean Fennessey
Yes.
- [27:37]
Amanda Dobbins
Out. Don't care. Yeah. Okay, but tell me. Okay, give me the scene.
- [27:40]
Sean Fennessey
I don't think we can play by. Play it.
- [27:42]
Chris Ryan
I was.
- [27:42]
Kevin Smith
I was kind of thinking about this, Sean. Like this might be one of those. We can describe it if you want, or we can do the plot. But like it's almost a bum out to think about telling Amanda the plot.
- [27:52]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah, it is extremely grave. And on the. Okay, I'll just say this one. I think this movie is very well made. I think it is like an accomplished. It is an interesting step forward for these filmmakers and I think that they are extremely talented. I really liked talking to them. They're like goofball Australians. It's so strange that this is their second movie. I never would have guessed this would have been inside them. I have to give them credit for making something so focused and sticking to its guns. They're very, very gifted. It is a really unfun time at the movies. It is so bleak and so hard to sit through at times. Some of it is like fun horror, but it's a. It's literally a movie about a woman who has lost her daughter. Her daughter drowns her nine year old daughter.
- [28:35]
Chris Ryan
Jesus.
- [28:36]
Amanda Dobbins
Do you see that?
- [28:37]
Sean Fennessey
And you flashback.
- [28:39]
Kevin Smith
In flashback, he's actually. He's soft pedaling the opening of the film, which is a snuff film. You open the movie with a snuff.
- [28:47]
Sean Fennessey
A snuff film about the sort of revivification of a. Of a dead person's soul into a different body. That's like the setup for the movie.
- [28:55]
Kevin Smith
Unlike a fucked up VHS tape. And you're not really sure what's going on. So it just looks like naked guys are killing children. Right.
- [29:03]
Sean Fennessey
And there's like drool and blood and pus and kind of like eyes turning black. Like it is. It is very well made and very upsetting. And it felt a little bit more to me like an early 2000s horror movie. Do you know what I mean by that, Chris? Like, it's not in that kind of like a 24 TraumaCore thing. It was a grungier aesthetic than we usually see in these movies. And then it shifts to a much more classical, contemporary style that we see in horror movies where it is basically a kitchen sink drama with supernatural elements. And Sally Hawkins is a woman who has lost her daughter. She becomes a foster parent to two children who we see have just witnessed the death of their father.
- [29:41]
Kevin Smith
A teenage boy named Andy. Right. And a mostly blind girl named Piper.
- [29:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [29:50]
Sean Fennessey
Two very good child performances. Billy Barrett and Sor Wong, they're really good in this movie. And they go to live with Sally Hawkins. Sally Hawkins, you know, a phenomenal British actress, probably best known for her work in Mike Lee films.
- [30:02]
Amanda Dobbins
Right. And the Paddington movies until she was rudely replaced without credits.
- [30:07]
Kevin Smith
This seems like a full rebuke of her Paddington past.
- [30:10]
Sean Fennessey
It is amazing that she skipped Paddington 3 to make this movie. This is a remarkable thing that happened. She plays a woman who foster cares kids and who we later learn in the movie had previously been. Had previously worked at the sort of institution that helps place children in homes. And she has lost her daughter. And it's sort of slowly revealed that she is attempting to harness the powers of the supernatural to revive her daughter in the body of the young girl.
- [30:44]
Kevin Smith
It turns out that this snuff film that we thought we were watching is, in fact, for Sally Hawkins's character, like an instructional video.
- [30:51]
Amanda Dobbins
Cool.
- [30:52]
Kevin Smith
Of how to resurrect people by having a, like, very specific kind of what she believes to be an angel. Do a lot of sucking the soul out of one body and then regurgitating it back into a vessel body. And the Piper character is going to be the vessel because, like, Sally Hawkins's late daughter, she is also blind. So there's like this perfect symmetry. I don't know that we. We actually don't get too into the bylaws of resurrection in this film. This movie. Yeah, I think I was pretty surprised because. Bring Her Back. No, sorry, Talk To Me actually had like, to Sean's point about this being grungy, early 2000s, bring her back or talk to me had like, 90s scream. Fun to it. You know, there was, like, teens in peril, but also making jokes at one another's expense then, you know, punctuated with, like, these extremely, like, upsetting moments. Bring Her Back is almost exclusively upsetting moments with none of the fun, which is a choice and it's like a way of. Of. Of. Of doing things, and it's much more traumatic. This just happened to feature one or two things that I am not cool with, especially tooth violence.
- [32:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay, so that's. That's your line.
- [32:08]
Kevin Smith
It is a line that I have. You know, it's like I. It is so extreme in this movie that I actually. Hand of God looked away, and I rarely, rarely, rarely look away.
- [32:19]
Sean Fennessey
Are you speaking about the butcher block table?
- [32:21]
Kevin Smith
I'm talking about the cantaloupe scene. Yeah, the butcher block table.
- [32:26]
Sean Fennessey
Okay, so let's talk about this. This is important.
- [32:28]
Kevin Smith
You're going to explain this to her.
- [32:30]
Amanda Dobbins
That's fine. I don't really like melon very much, so that's not the problem.
- [32:35]
Kevin Smith
The melon is the least of your worries.
- [32:39]
Sean Fennessey
So there is an actor in this film named Jonah Wren Phillips. He's. He's maybe a 10 or 11 year old boy who plays this kid Oliver, who's another boy who's being fostered by Sally Hawkins character. And he is that sort of like soul transporting vessel. We learn in the movie he is being groomed to become this sort of. He's described as an angel, but he's clearly like a demon who has the power as he becomes less and less human. He has this insatiable appetite and we can't, you know, he wants to eat like live flesh. He wants to eat anything that's in front of him. And this little kid plays this role and he is very upsetting and very effective. It's an amazing performance by this young kid. And there's a scene in the film when he's sort of left alone at the house where we're getting closer and closer to the potential resurrection where we're going to have.
- [33:29]
Kevin Smith
He's getting hungry. Quote unquote.
- [33:30]
Sean Fennessey
Yes. The Sora Wong character is out and about the. It turns out that the corpse of the dead daughter is in a freezer in the back house and he's getting so hungry and he's there with the.
- [33:44]
Kevin Smith
Older boy Andy, who's really extra to requirements for Sally Hawkins. She doesn't really need him around so she's gaslighting him. She's peeing on him at night so that he thinks that he's losing his mind. She's doping his, his protein shakes. He's like real fucked up.
- [34:00]
Sean Fennessey
This is a deranged movie.
- [34:02]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, it's. This is just like, it's just fucked up. Spill. And then. Sean, go ahead.
- [34:06]
Sean Fennessey
So Oliver is seated at a table almost like waiting for his next meal and nothing arrives for him because he's by himself in this house. And he just takes a giant bite at Andy.
- [34:18]
Kevin Smith
Andy's trying to break through to him. He's like, we. Because Oliver's non verbal and so Andy's like, I can, I can break through to this kid. Like I can just reason with him. And he's like, oh, do you want to write? Do you want to write something? And he gives him a pencil and a pad and he's like, if you write something, I'll. I'll give you some melon, some lunch. But it's like quid pro quo. And he's like, okay. And he cuts this melon with a knife and the kid, like, reaches out for it and he's like, here you go. And Andy turns his back and, like, when he comes back, Oliver's like, sawing his teeth out with this butcher knife.
- [34:49]
Sean Fennessey
Oh, that was the part you were, you were, you were, you wanted to talk about. Okay, yeah, that is, yeah. Amanda has frozen at an amazingly opportune time. I don't know if she knows that. Should we just continue talking through this terror, these terrible sequences? We've lost Amanda. Did she sign off?
- [35:06]
Kevin Smith
Amanda, literally.
- [35:07]
Sean Fennessey
Did she tap out from, from the teeth song? I think I missed these kinds of.
- [35:13]
Kevin Smith
Technical disruptions that happen.
- [35:15]
Sean Fennessey
It really is an opportunity, especially deep into the description of truly upsetting horror of dental violence. I, I, I did find this movie effective and unpleasant, and I don't want to revisit it at all.
- [35:29]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, that's a, that's a good way of putting it.
- [35:33]
Sean Fennessey
I'm, I do think some people really enjoyed it. Amanda, you have returned.
- [35:37]
Amanda Dobbins
I, I, literally, he was sitting at the table and waiting for his meal, and then what happens?
- [35:42]
Kevin Smith
He stabs himself in the, in the mouth with a knife, with a cantaloupe at the end of it, and then proceeds to flip out all over the house and starts biting into a wooden butcher's block. And it's just like a lot of mouth blood and mouth, Mouth.
- [35:56]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, that's gross. Teeth going places.
- [35:59]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, it's just like, I, those are all my stress dreams are like, my teeth.
- [36:02]
Amanda Dobbins
Oh, really?
- [36:03]
Kevin Smith
Yeah. Because I grind my teeth, I have to use like a little, a mouth guard. And when I take it out, I often have like, if I wake up at like, 6 and I want to sleep for like another hour, I'll often take my mouth guard out and then I have, like, up dreams for that last hour.
- [36:18]
Sean Fennessey
I find that teeth violence is not terribly upsetting to me. But after enduring one hour of a teenage boy being completely gaslit by a deranged woman attempting resurrection, there's a little bit of a cherry on top. I was like, okay. In addition to just being sad and upsetting, this movie is extremely gross and doesn't resolve itself in the most emotionally satisfying way. I would say everyone is pretty traumatized by the time we get to the end of this movie. Interesting choice by the Filippos to do this. Obviously comes from a very personal place. I believe the story is that they were either going to make a new Street Fighter movie or this movie and they opted not to make Street Fighter and made this.
- [36:59]
Kevin Smith
Someone is making Street Fighter though, right?
- [37:02]
Sean Fennessey
Someone is making Street Fighter. I'm not sure who that is right now.
- [37:04]
Kevin Smith
It's actually me. I was going to announce this in Chicago, but my directorial debut will be Street Fighter.
- [37:11]
Sean Fennessey
That's really exciting.
- [37:12]
Amanda Dobbins
I saw Chris on Saturday afternoon after he had seen Ballerina and then bring her back in succession. And I just have to say it was like not the best CR mood that I've ever witnessed. No, when you were talking about the movies. No, you were great. You were like, you were a wonderful party guest and, and you, you know, hung out with my 3 year old terrorist son. And we appreciate you, but like, when you were talking about the movies, you're like, yeah, that sucked.
- [37:37]
Kevin Smith
Yeah, yeah, it was tough. I think those are also like tough movies to see alone because then you walk out and you're like, what have I done?
- [37:45]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [37:48]
Sean Fennessey
Let'S pivot to something we did 25 years ago, or at least I did, which is see the movie Dogma. And I was right there with you, brother. Chris and I, obviously, we, we, we pray in the temple of Kevin Smith, especially 20th century. Kevin Smith is insanely formative for me as a person. And we've talked, we've kind of hinted at it at times. I think there's honestly a chance to do like a four or five hour episode of a podcast about long threatened.
- [38:16]
Amanda Dobbins
I've taken two parental leaves. In the time that you've been threatened.
- [38:19]
Kevin Smith
You fucked up, Sean.
- [38:20]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah, it was your. You could have done it. It was there for the taking.
- [38:24]
Sean Fennessey
Amanda, I have news for you. I can do it whenever I want. Just because you're not apprenticed to leave doesn't mean I can't do it tomorrow. Nevertheless, it was a really kind of interesting experience I just had with Kevin because I've never talked to Kevin before. I've never met him. He looms large in terms of my taste and point of view. He's gone through several cycles of evaluation. But he did the thing that I have been honestly so fond of that he does, which is he just took over and he just podcasted for an hour because this is something he's been doing for the last 15 years. And by the time he got to the end of his conversation, he almost, in a way, kind of made me realize one of the things that I really like about him, and that is inside of Dogma, which is that I just really like watching Kevin work out his ideas through character in a movie setting. You know, he's often criticized and criticizes himself for his inability to basically like, direct well, you know that he doesn't stage sequences very well. He doesn't block well. He doesn't really have that sense of kinetic visual excitement that so many of his peers like. He kept referencing Tarantino, link later, Robert Rodriguez, all the guys he came up with. These guys are such, like, gifted, dynamic visual filmmakers. But what I like to watch is a Kevin Smith character. Giving a monologue like that actually gratifies me. And obviously, it partially invented podcasting. It invented a whole way of living in the world. And Dogma was a kind of, like, logical endpoint, I think, to what he had been writing through, through that decade, which is sort of like taking the stuff of his childhood and the fascinations of his adolescence. Star wars, video culture, dating, personal relationships, kind of blending them up and making fun of them and about them in movies with his friends. But Dogma is about something much more serious, right? It's about faith, it's about. It's about religion. It's about the extension of how far you can go without actually seeing what is real in the world beyond the world. It's also a silly action comedy. So revisiting the movie and then talking with Kevin, it's a very personally gratifying experience for me. I loved Dogma when I saw it, even though I was like, this is so strange that every time there's an action sequence, he cuts away to a reaction of a person's face and doesn't show you any action. He doesn't want to shoot the action sequence, but I think there's a lot of good stuff in it that I want to talk to you guys about. But it was just nice that it sort of like, it held up as a time capsule. I felt a little bit like my dad listening to a classic rock radio station where I was just like, hell, yeah, man, the Eagles still fucking rock. Like, this is the hotel. California will never be bad to me. And I was comfortable in that. Chris, I know that you saw it at the time. Did you revisit the movie for this chat?
- [41:04]
Kevin Smith
I sure did, yeah. And it was awesome. I can't believe how good this is. I was kind of. It almost made me wonder whether or not the other element to this film is it was, in some ways, like, theatrically controversial at the time, both as a selling point of the film, but also as a performative act of culture war stuff that was going on in the late 90s. But, you know, it was. It was knowingly a hot button movie. You know, like, Linda Fiorentino's character in the film works in an abortion clinic. There's a lot of stuff about God and whether he exists or not. There's, you know, like, a lot of stuff about corporatization of. Of everyday life going on with the movie, Core Corp stuff. And maybe even at the time, I think I remember being like. It feels like he's pressing the button down a little hard with, like, what he's trying to say about the world. And now all these years later, I'm like, this completely a. I feel like I'm way more in agreement. Not even in agreement, but it's like, this rules and to, like, maybe we'll look back on some films that we found overly prescient, you know, over the course of the last five, six, 10 years. And we'll look back on them in 10 years and be like, oh, this was really good. I just didn't. I just had an allergic reaction to it being ripped from the headlines.
- [42:26]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [42:26]
Sean Fennessey
Amanda, did you see it in 1999? Do you remember?
- [42:28]
Amanda Dobbins
Of course I did. Because this was post Good Will Hunting, Matt and Ben. And so, I mean, it was like a sense memory rewatching this because I was so young, but they are also so, so young and so charismatic and obviously, like, they were trained in, like, the, you know, the Kevin Smith school of just talking a lot and, like, being a wise ass. But like, the two of them on the, like, the airport walk, you know, walk, as they're just, like, yelling at each other, like, I felt 13 again in the best way. And they have it, you know, that's also like a. It was a nice reminder of, oh, so that is why they are now like Matt Damon and Ben Affleck. There is something so powerful. But I do also remember being, you know, I went to the movie theater because it was Matt and Ben. And let's see, I was what, 14, 15 when this came out? So, like, I had no idea what was going on. I mean, I understood, like, I remember that, you know, the news events, like, I knew what the Catholic Church was. I was aware of the headlines that it was like something scandalous. And I knew Alanis Marset was in it. But I don't. I. To Chris's point, it's not even that I was, like, allergic to it. I was just kind of like, what? Okay, well, this is weird that they made a movie about the Catholic Church and so rewatching. And I was like, wow, this is, like, very smart and, you know, very funny. And it is, you know, talky in the end, like, with big ideas and, like, the tiniest bit of, like, Philosophy 101, like, as an undergrad, but actually not in a. It's not annoying. I think it's like. It's like, well done and amusing. So, yeah, totally holds up.
- [44:08]
Sean Fennessey
I was kind of. I was impressed by the boldness of combining the stupid humor of a giant shit monster with, I thought, like, fairly sophisticated understanding of the complexity of being raised in the Catholic faith. Like, obviously, I related to this movie instantaneously. I was 17, raised in the church, confirmed, spent every Sunday at church. And from the age of probably like nine all the way through when I stopped going to church at 18, sitting in a pew and just baffled by the utter contradiction of the experience. By the inability to understand mass groups of people not more deeply questioning the illogical nature of the story. And the movie takes this really smart choice of using these kind of fallen angels, these descended earthbound angels and having them be. Even though they're the villains of the movie, the vessels for the questioning. Linda Fiorentino's character is somebody who is also sort of like, coping with a loss of. She has faith, but, like, a loss of hope because she's unable to conceive and that Using that as a sort of like Virgin Mary North Star throughout the story. But Matt and Ben are the ones who get, like, most of the big speeches and they're the ones who are kind of like, dissecting the nature of faith and the nature of their role as, you know, God's disciples. And Matt and Ben, I didn't have the same relationship to them, Amanda. Obviously I wasn't super horny for those guys, but I was like, these guys are so cool. And the thing that Kevin Smith knows is that they're so smart. You can tell that they're really. We know they're really smart guys because we've been watching them do press for 35 years now. But nobody gets Ben Affleck. To me, like Kevin Smith. Like, Matt Damon is the smart guy in Good Will Hunting, but Ben Affleck's the real smart guy. To me. He's the one who's actually really bright. It's just that he is, like, so self defeating in everything that he does. And he always casts him in roles of the guy who's incredibly smart and great at. Is great at giving dialogue.
- [46:03]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, fuck it.
- [46:03]
Sean Fennessey
But blows it every time. You know, he, like. He overreaches. He doesn't quite know how to get out of his own way. Which is like such an elegant little, you know, mini portrait of the Ben Affleck experience over the last few decades. And the scene between the two of them in the parking garage in this movie.
- [46:18]
Amanda Dobbins
Oh, yeah.
- [46:19]
Sean Fennessey
Where Affleck has sort of like, has his dawning realization and starts making his pitch to Damon's character and Daemon's like, whoa, man, settle down. Like, you know, we're just two angels here. We don't need to get crazy. Affleck. I'm like, this is really good. Award winning performance. You know, like, it isn't a silly movie with Salma Hayek as, you know, a muse who's a stripper and the shit monster and Chris rock as the 13th Disciple. That was written out of history. But I think I was just surprised. I think Kevin Smith was like in his early 30s or late 20s when he wrote this movie. It's just, it's oddly mature for being as immature and silly as it is. And I agree with you, Chris. Like, it's pretty. It's really smart about corporate influence and the bad actors inside and the way that they capitalize on people's, you know, inability to go beyond what's convenient for them. And, you know, the George Carlin character in this movie is very funny. This sort of like golfing cardinal who's trying to modernize faith to kind of keep as many people in the church and keep the money flowing into the church as much as possible. George Carlin, obviously such a huge influence on Kevin Smith. And you can tell when you listen to his monologues. They're basically just stand up specials that Carlin was doing in the 90s. I think I was impressed by this movie. I was like, how did he convince Alan Rickman to do this movie? Alan Rickman just cooking when he's right in that Galaxy Quest zone where he's like, yeah, sure, I'm in Sense and Sensibility, but what I really want to be doing is stupid R rated Hollywood comedies. Just the whole cast in general is delightful. I don't know any takeaways from the movie. Chris.
- [47:51]
Kevin Smith
Just like the same sort of, maybe not singular, but maybe generationally defining voice and eye that he applies to Star wars movies and comic books and his characters in previous films are talking about those kind of more pedestrian things he applies to like, like Catholic doctrine. So listening to these two characters be like, here's the loophole that we'll use to get back into heaven, or here's, you know, like all these, like, basically like ideas that these guys have are essentially the same as, you know, the Death Star or, you know, talking about X Men or whatever, but they're actually Talking about the Catholic Church. It's like such an ingenious application of a very specific voice and a very specific sensibility. And I gotta say, like, I found it, like, I found the end very affecting, like the, the sawing off, the angel wing stuff and, and I just was like, very, very happy to have this movie back in circulation and back in the mix. I wonder whether or not it will kind of get revived. I know he's taking it around and it's doing, I did like a million dollars over the weekend. Right on. It's like, small opening, but the askew verse is right there to be rediscovered.
- [49:09]
Sean Fennessey
Amanda, what about you? Any other observations from the movie? And it's, you know, it was gone. The only way to watch it for years was just on DVD, basically until they remastered the film in 4K and as Chris said, basically put it on a thousand screens over the weekend and it made a million bucks.
- [49:23]
Amanda Dobbins
I do wonder what people seeing it for the first time, people younger than us will make of it and whether it will be totally baffling or if it is sort of just like yet another Rosetta Stone of like, oh, this is why you guys are like this. Like, this is why you talk like this. This is how you see. I do think that it does a great job of explaining why those of us who were raised in the 90s think and speak the way that we do, which is, you know, a testament to Kevin Smith and his powers. I'm not like, in this, you know, I'm not going to do a five hour podcast with you guys about it, but I, I have a lot of respect.
- [50:05]
Sean Fennessey
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- [54:36]
Chris Ryan
In 2000, for those who weren't around at the turn of the century, in 1999, let me paint you a picture. Disney doesn't own Marvel yet. Marvel's not even a thing. Marvel's a struggling comic book company that is almost about to fold. The movies are a ways off. So Disney, like a lot of majors, were for some reason interested in winning awards. They can make box office numbers, but none of them could win awards like, say, a company like Miramax. Miramax, for those who don't follow film history all that closely, although on the big picture, I'd be shocked if you didn't know this, but to put it in the parlance of our times, kids, they were the A24 of their day. All of the interesting shit was coming out of Miramax back then. And so in 1993, I believe it was Disney. The Walt Disney Company bought Miramax, which came with the brothers that ran it. Tighten your sphincters. I have to say the name out loud. Harvey Weinstein and Bob Weinstein. So I feel this is my theory, and I can't prove this, but I feel my entire career has been a result of a reaction to a criticism that came from the sale of Miramax to Disney. Now, there was no Internet then, kids, if you can believe that shit. So if you wanted to let people know you were mad about a thing, you'd write a letter into the newspaper or you wrote, you know, an article in the paper, you know, and this is pre Internet versioning. Internet was just starting to enter homes at this point. There was no, like, way for everybody to get on Twitter and be like, I'm pissed. There was no Twitter or even X or whatever the fuck. That being said, when the sale of Miramax to Disney went through, criticism arose and again, I don't know where we would have heard it. I guess just in articles, probably in the trades, probably in in a lot of indie filmmaking magazines like Filmmaker Magazine or aiva, that it was the death knell for independent film. Now that Disney, now that the mouse owns Miramax, nothing interesting will happen. They're going to start homogenizing. Like, you know, Miramax was coming off of the piano and the Crying Game, those were going to be out the window. Everybody's clutching their pearls. I honestly feel. And again, I never had this conversation with anybody to prove it. But I believe that Clerks was purchased at the 1994 Sundance Film Festival not because of its quality, which, if you've ever seen the movie, it looks like it was shot through a Glass of Milk is an enjoyable movie audience.
- [57:43]
Sean Fennessey
It's a wonderful movie, Kevin. Everyone loves it.
- [57:45]
Chris Ryan
But. But it's, you know, it's an outsider art. It's like, you know, it's some kid from Arkansas who's never been anywhere who made a Mona Lisa and people like, oh, my God, he made it out of cow shit. Like, it's that kind of thing. So I feel because, you know, going into Sundance, anyone who could have bought the movie had seen it and passed. We had fans in every company. Your fine lines, your arrow, your irs, your Miramax, of course, was. October didn't even exist back then. So we had fans in every company, but nobody could pull a trigger. Nobody who was in charge. He's generally a youngster who worked in the company who was trying to hip somebody to our flick, but nobody could pull the trigger. So when we went to Sundance, we went going like, you know, that's it. This is the best it could ever be, is we're going to Sundance. Which, mind you, was pretty much what Sundance was About in those days, prior to the year that we went to Sundance in 1994, no film had ever sold at the Sundance Film Festival. Now, well, the first festival has changed in many ways over the course of the last few years. But it was defined for a long period of time as a Cinderella story location where these young filmmakers carry their film up to the top of the hill and come down with movie deals. That never happened until 1994. Most deals were made prior to Sundance and after the festival was over. Nobody had ever sold a movie at the festival until John Pearson sold Go Fish, first movie that ever sold at Sundance while the festival was going on. He sold it right before the first screening. I think he was negotiating because it was a unseen, very hot movie. He also represented Clerks. Clerks was the second movie that ever sold at Sundance. So I honestly feel. Because then I was introduced to Harvey Weinstein and then I was introduced to Jeffrey Katzenberg who had, you know, they were like, this is Kevin Smith. He made Clerks. It cost like 30 grand. And he goes, oh, we'll give you 10, we'll give you 3 million, you make 10 of those. So introduced to like him and knowing the climate at the time, I honestly feel that we were purchased to indicate to anyone who was writing about film that nothing had changed at Miramax. It was almost a defiant like, oh, you think we've sold out to Disney? We are going to pick the filthiest, most foul mouth, basic independent film that we could find at Sundance and we're gonna slap a fucking Disney logo on it. Shit. So I do feel like my career was a reaction to the sale of Miramax to Disney. That benefited me in 1999. It came back to bite us in the ass. So we make Clerks, Miramax picks it up. Next movie we make is Mallrats with Universal Gramercy Pictures, which was co owned between Universal and Polygram. And then the next thing we do before Mallrats comes out, I'm wise enough to make an overall deal at Miramax with our friend John Gordon, who went on to produce Red State with me and then produce David O. Russell's Academy Award winning movies. He was like, come here, man. Like you. You did Clerks with this. I don't know why you went to Universal, but set up your shingle here. So we set up our shingle there. And Chasing Amy was the first movie we had made under their aegis. And then Dogma was the second. They were told from the jump by Michael Eisner, don't make this movie like it's going to cause trouble. Now, here's another theory of mine. Again, no proof whatsoever, but this is my theory. Harvey and Bob went through a similar process with what they would go through on Dogma with Larry Clark's first movie, Kids. It was a Miramax film until Disney was like, this is tantamount to child pornography. Get rid of this. Turned it. It was a polemic, according to Disney. So Harvey and Bob, rather than sell it to a competitor, they bought the movie away from Miramax themselves, paid Disney for the movie, and then released it themselves through a company they created called Shining Excalibur. Now, since the Miramax deal with Disney, whatever money came in for those movies went to Disney. And, you know, I think the Weinstein brothers rewarded themselves appropriately. I don't think they were hurting, but all the box office went to the parent company with Kids. All that money went to them, and they made a lot of money. So my take on the situation was since they knew, since Michael Eisner made it very clear even to an underling like myself, that like Dogma was not to be made at Miramax, they wanted no trouble, you know, with Catholics or anything. Harvey still made the movie. And I believe it's because, you know, I would like to believe it was because of a commitment to art. I think he knew, if I make this movie and they hate it like they hated Kids, I got a model. But this time around, and this is just my contention, again, no proof whatsoever, but this is my conjecture, and I'll tell you why. But this time around, why would we pay Disney like, they're gonna want it gone? So we were initially being kept to a budget of $4 million on DOG, which would have been nearly impossible. The movie was very ambitious. We barely got it made for the. For the 10 that we had because the boys were in Good Will Hunting and Good Will Hunting blew up and they won an Oscar. That gave us more breathing room. We moved to a $10 million budget. I think they wanted to keep it close to 4 because it's much easier to like make $4 million movie disappear than a 10 million. But I think at the end of the day, the heat was so strong, you know, the Catholic League, it was never the Catholic Church. Some people are like, man, the Catholic Church. Pope never says shit about this movie. Catholic Church, guilty of many things. Smart enough to understand if you don't want people paying attention to something, you don't point at it and say its name. We were attacked by the Catholic League, a self appointed media watchdog group here in the States. Run by a guy named Bill Donahue, who had white hair then, so I can't imagine he's still around in this day and age. But he was older then, so they were making all this noise, and it got so bad that, you know, we had 400,000 pieces of hate mail, three legitimate death threats. They had to install metal detectors at the Palais in Cannes for the first time because there were death threats. When we showed up at the New York Film Festival to debut the film, Thousand Protesters in Front of Alice Tully Hall. So it was pretty contentious. So Disney was like, get rid of this. And I think they were like, gladly. And that was it. I don't think for years we were told they bought the movie. And I'm like, oh, I guess that makes sense. Like, why would Disney just let them walk away with that? But years later, we asked Disney to provide a receipt. I said, this sounds stupid, but I would have to imagine if ownership of a movie changed hands, there'd be some paperwork somewhere or receipt indicating that, yeah, they paid us back the $10 million. And we waited to find that for a while. And one of the answers I got back was, all of this took place before records were digital. So all of this lies in a warehouse somewhere in the Valley. Yeah, if. If we can find it, we cannot locate the Indiana Jones.
- [65:49]
Sean Fennessey
Ark of the Covenant Museum is where it's hidden. Yeah.
- [65:52]
Chris Ryan
So I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but having worked at that company, I. I do feel like Disney was happy to be rid of that movie, and I don't think they were ever doing paperwork to see if they got paid back. Unimportant part of the story. Except later on, when I'm trying to get this movie back, you know, I'm like, wait a second. Do I even have to get it back? I may own it based on the fact that, like, if no money exchange hands, it comes back to the guy who made the movie. So back in the day, Miramax, owned by Disney, they told him, get rid of this movie. Harvey and Bob took it. They released it. Not through a company they created, but they broke it up. Theatrical rights went to a fledgling Canadian company called Lionsgate that hadn't done a lot, but had done enough. Mark Ehrman was the guy that was running the company, Tom Ortenberg at that point. And they were kind of an indie upstart, did very small films. But Harvey didn't want to let the movie go to Focus or let the movie go to Fine Line. They were competitors. He didn't see Lionsgate as a threat. And he knew Mark Ehrman and stuff. And so they made a sweetheart deal. Theatrical went through Lionsgate. When we hit 30 million at the box office, Lionsgate took out a double page ad in Variety going, $30 million. Lionsgate has arrived. You know, years later Lionsgate would go on to make Twilight and the Hunger Games and they made a lot more than 30, but it was charming. I still have it framed. It's at Podcastle Cinema. So Lionsgate had theatrical and that ended once the movie was done with its theatrical line. Sony, Columbia, Tristar and Mike Stratford. He was the guy who was in charge of DVD division and the father of bonus value material on dvd. He's the one that, that push that forward in the medium. They had the home video rights, Columbia, not Columbia, Criterion. We had done a Chasing Amy DVD with Criterion. And so they're like, we'll do Dogma Harpy. But Criterion in those days, and it's probably the same still now, didn't pay as much as like the studio. Columbia Tristar was like, we'll give you way more. And so it wound up going there and they did a phenomenal, a great disc. Yeah, no complaints whatsoever. So let me See what year? 2008. I go from Miramax to the Weinstein Company when the Weinstein's leave Miramax behind and start the Weinstein Company. And we do Clerks II with them in 2006 and then we do Zach Amiri in 2008. And then that was it, then I walked away. So 2009 represents the 10th anniversary of Dogma. And so I start writing. Hey, 10th anniversary. What are we going to do? Nothing. I go for the 15th. Same thing. Hey, Dogma, 15th. What's going on? During this time they were doing stuff like remember they had the artist, they were, they were back on top winning awards and shit. So I and my dopey ass movie from a decade or more ago was an afterthought, if any thought whatsoever. And I would write and I'd reach out, nobody ever got back and stuff. I would hear from people all the time who were like, hey man, I can't get Dogma anymore unless I pay 100 bucks on eBay and stuff. I was like, I'm not in charge of that. The video deal must have lapsed. I'll put in a word again. And I would write and nobody would write back and stuff. So I didn't talk to anybody at Weinstein or Harvey in particular when I left from 2008. The only other time I spoke to him because I Would reach out, never hear back. When we took Red State to Sundance, I was.
- [70:03]
Sean Fennessey
We were, you know, doing the auction thing.
- [70:05]
Chris Ryan
Yes. I thought I would save independent film.
- [70:09]
Sean Fennessey
It was a cool idea. I liked it.
- [70:11]
Chris Ryan
It was fun. And it also birthed the model that I worked off of for the next 10 years, touring the movie myself. It wasn't a revolutionary idea, really. I could have truncated the speech down to, I'm gonna take my movies to smaller places and charge more money. Goodbye, you know, and that was it. So it was a model that has worked for us ever since, and including just recently with the Dogmatour. So while I'm there for that Red State screen, you know, we're telling people we're gonna auction the movie and shit. And so it was packed. And everybody who wanted to buy it was there. I'm sitting in the back of the theater, and it was at the Eccles, which is the school, essentially.
- [70:50]
Sean Fennessey
It's like the grandest room at Sundance.
- [70:51]
Chris Ryan
Yeah, huge. Like a thousand seater or something. But technically, it's at the high school. It's just big high school theater. So if you're in the back, they don't have traditional doors. They got curtain. And I'm sitting in the back, leaning on the back wall, watching my flick. And then I hear from out in the hallway, unmistakable voice of Harvey. And so I open the curtain and look, and there he is, barking at some underling or something like that, you know, I close the curtain and because he stopped talking, roll my eyes, go back to watch my movie. Then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, even louder and shit like that. And if I'm hearing it, that means everyone in the back of the theater is hearing it. And it's at the beginning, first 15 minutes of red State. So I did like something completely uncharacteristic because I'm not a brave person, nor am I a tough guy by any stretch of the imagination. I open the curtain, I said, hey. And he looks over at me, he's talking to his assistant. He looks over and I go, shut the up. And he looked so surprised. And I was like, I'm showing my movie in here. I would never do this to you if you were showing one of your movies. Shut the up. And I closed the curtain. I waited for him to come storming through and punch me, but he never showed up. So I wouldn't consider that a conversation. But I did address him after I left for After Zach and Mary, and between this moment when I get this phone call. I get a phone call one day and it's like, I haven't been at Zach. I left Wine Seed company at least almost a decade ago at this point. And I get a phone call and they go, hold for Harvey Weinstein. So click. Kevin Harvey say, hey, how are you? And he goes, good. You know what I just realized? I got Dogma. I said, yeah, you do. And everyone's always asking me about home video, man, because the Columbia tristar deal. Laughs he goes, I know. He's going like, look, this movie's got an amazing cast. He's going, all these people are still working and we could make a sequel. And I was like, what? Yes, I would love to do that. He goes, or at least a streaming series. I gotta figure we could carry the story on. Are you interested in the. I said, yeah, man, I'm very interested. And he goes, all right, so I'll give you a call next week, we'll get into this. And I was like, all right. And I hung up. And I was so fucking excited because I felt like I'd been forgotten. Like a part, an important part of indie film history for Miramax in the beginning. And then when we left, they were like, fuck them. And you know, this is also right around the time, same time the, the Internet is also to some degree like, fuck them. So it's kind of starting to feel like, oh my God, like we never should have left, but we did. And I was trying to make it on my own and stuff like that. And so the fact that suddenly he was talking about Dogma again after me, trying to fucking like remind these cats, hey, you own this movie was music to my ears, man. I couldn't wait. Three days later, the New York Times piece comes out. And I was like, you know, like, I've seen many people online be like, they, everyone had to know. Nobody knows when somebody's fucking committing crimes. They don't broadcast that kind of shit. So all of us who I know, we're like fucking reading the New York Times like, holy shit. So you start calling everybody that you ever worked with to be like, what the fuck, man? What the fuck did you know? What the fuck? So I'm talking to John Gordon, who's our exec there for years. And then, you know, John went on to. He ran Universal for Red one Red hot minute with Donna Langley. And then, then he went on to like produce. Well, he produced Red State with me, but then he made like David O. Russell's like award winning movies and shit. So I'm talking to Joe because I met John at Miramax. He was our Guy that got us to do the overall deal. So we come up together. So I was like, you know, oh, my God, this is. What a horror show? What the fuck? So after we Talked for, like, 10, 15 minutes, I said, john, I gotta tell you something. And it honestly makes me queasy and I feel dirty. He's like, what? I said, this guy called me last week. He goes, what? I said, I haven't heard from this dude in, like, a decade. And he called me last week to talk about doing a Dogma sequel. And I got real excited, man, because, like, I've always wanted to, like, revisit Dogma. And, like, you know, after I've been trying to get in touch with them, talking about the home video deal lapsing and the anniversaries, like, that was music to my ears. And John goes. He's real sober as a judge. He goes, kevin, he had no interest in Dogma. He was just calling to see if you were one of the people who was a source for the New York Times article. If you didn't answer the phone, he would have assumed you were one of the sources. But the fact that you answered the phone and you were happy to hear from him told him that you were oblivious. So he had no intention of doing anything with Dog. He was just casing himself before he knew the inevitable was about to happen. So in terms of the egregious things that Harvey Weinstein's done, let's all agree that doesn't even make the fucking list. But it was, you know, yet another fucking blow. And just it sucked, you know? And then what? But what sucked even worse was finding out. Clerks Chasing Amy, Dogma, Jersey Girl, Clerks 2, Zach and Mary. These were all made under the aegis of this guy. Like, my dreams came true under this monster. For others, he was this fucking nightmare. So you carried our cross with you. Like, you know, up until then, there'd been no price for my art, so to speak. And now it's like, oh, like, for me, there'll always be this kind of taint to it. So what happened, happened. And he went through some legal troubles, wound up in jail for the 20th anniversary. As the 20th was coming up, I started reaching out again because I was like, you know what, man? Like, maybe he'll just sell it now. So I wrote a heartfelt letter to a convicted rapist, sent it in through the lawyer, saying, look, you made many movies. I've only made a few. This one is tied in with my childhood faith with my dead father. You're not doing anything with it, please sell it back to me. And I offered 250 grand. It was place to start. Heard back from the lawyer, Absolutely not. Wrote another letter, offered 500 grand. Heard back from lawyer, absolutely not. That's about where I could go. And that would have been me closing Jane Silent Bob's secret stash. So beyond that I had to reach out to some people who might be have a vested interest in seeing Dogma live further and whatnot. Then I got back to the dude, wrote another letter, offered a million bucks. Still heard back from the lawyer? No. So what we'd heard from inside was he was holding out for 5 million. And if I had $5 million, like I'd make a brand new movie buying some old ass movie. I love Dogma. But though that, that point, that was that I was like, I'm never going to get 5 million for it. And even if I could raise 5 million, like I, I wouldn't feel good about paying that. And it would take a long time to make that kind of money back in this environment like shit 10, maybe 15 years ago we could earn that back with you know, home video licensing deals and stuff and just selling DVDs and, and Blu Rays. Now in the streaming age, just, it's a different world altogether. So it would take me, If I spent 5 million to buy that movie a mo money which I don't fucking have. So I'd be on the hook for money to somebody else. It would probably take me 10 years if I could earn it out, you know, just by licensing the movie, showing the movie, not talking about making a sequel or turn it into something else. So I was like, you know what? Maybe it's for the best. I didn't have the money anyway. So it then 8 months ago I get this phone call from Alessandra Williams who's like, I, I have Dogma. Would you like to come talk about it? And I was like, well you, you have my interest. I'm intrigued. So I met with her at the same and Sensei Bungalows and she what we learned at that point, what we were told then was she's in charge of a company, a hedge fund that bought a tranche of movies from Harvey Weinstein. He was going back into court, I guess he's in court right now. So he knew he needed money and I guess he liquidated whatever assets he had left. So in this tranche of movies was some karate films I guess he had bought in the wake of Kill Bill, Larry Clark's movie Kids, Michael Moore's movie Fahrenheit 9 11, which went through the same experience that me and kids went that Dogma and kids went through with Harvey and Bob buying that movie personally and releasing it and making $100 million and dogma. So, you know, they sold off everything. And they were like, ben Affleck's in this one. So, you know, she was like, so we have it. And. And I was like, can I buy it? And she was like, no. So I was like, fair enough. And she's like, what would you do with it? What would you want to do with it? And I said, well, I've been touring movies lately. You know, now, like Clerks three, Jane's Tombstone, back all the way back to Red State, like, is great. It's a party and stuff. And this movie would be like an instant easy fucking sell. Are you kidding me? Like, you know, I didn't tour the 430 movie because I was like, oh, man, I'd have to educate everybody on this. What? This is Clerks 3. Jameson Bob Reboot Easy to tour. Because people are like, well, I know what the originals are and stuff. And Dogma, I was like, oh, my God. Taking out that movie, like, in this day and age where people are like, take me back to the fucking 90s. Like, it was going to be an easy sell in my book. So she was like, would you put it in theaters, re release it? I was like, well, I mean, the way we do it is we just go to, like, big theaters for wallet shit like that. And she goes, you want to just put in on a big screen again? And I was like, I don't think anybody's interested in that sort of thing. June 5th, the movie comes out on like 1500 screens everywhere. Because I, at one point, I was like, look, why don't you sniff around amc, man? Like, instead of sniffing around a studio, find a partner. AMC did that deal with Taylor Swift. And she seems very smart, so why not try that out? And so she did it, and bam, we're coming out on all these screens. So I was like, I thought I knew the story then about shit. Six weeks ago, eight weeks ago. Well, at this point, because I went on tour for the whole last month. So maybe at this point, 10 weeks ago, Alessandra's like, hey, I produced a movie that's at the Beverly Hills Film Festival. Will you go watch it? And I said, oh, my God, absolutely. So I go watch. Like, is it, interestingly enough, the Beverly Hills Film Festival is that Gromage Chinese theater, which is not in Beverly Hills for those that don't live in the area, but it was an easy walk for me because I live right up the hill from the Chinese. So I went to watch the flick, had a good ass time. I text to her afterwards, I say, hey, man, like, I have a festival at my own movie theater. I said, I got, you know, I got Smog Castle Cinemas over in Atlantic Highlands, N.J. and the fourth edition of the film festival is coming up. So if you give me a link, I'll submit the movie to Ernie, you know, Ernie o' Donnell, who runs the place, and he'll put it in the festival. And she goes, oh, my God, that'd be great. Then my mom could see it. And I was like, oh, does your mom live in Manhattan? Because we're like across the river from. From the city. And she goes, no, my mom lives across the street from the movie theater. And I was like, we've been working together this long is the first time you thought to mention that? She goes, well, I didn't want to creep you out. And I was like, too late. She goes, well, it gets even creepier. I said, what? And she goes, you know Jane, Silent Bob, Secret stash? I said, quite well, it's my comic book store. And she goes, I used to work at Coco Puri right down the street. And I was like, who the fuck are you, man? And then finally she dropped dime. So at age 10, her very permissive mother lets Alessandra watch Dogma. And she loves it. Some of it she understands, some of it she don't. But she watches it over and over again. Alessandra grows up, becomes an actress, producer, mover and shaker. She's one of the most insanely well connected people I've ever met in my entire life. And I haven't met her until recently. So she's sitting around, I guess, watching fucking YouTube, or she sees me give an interview someplace where I'm sitting there going like, I tried to get the movie back from Ari, but we can't get Dogma back. And she goes, oh, my God, I used to love that movie more people should see it. I'm going to help them. And that's exactly how we wound up here. She went and fucking raised money and then hit up his lawyer and right place, right time. I guess that dude needed money more than he needed it when we were trying to fucking get the movie five years ago or whatever the fuck, because he sold off that tranche of films. And she was able to sell off the other movies and be like, great, now we can concentrate on Fucking Dogma. So she's like, you know, would you ever think about doing a sequel? I was like, yes. Like, fuck, yeah. That'd be fantastic. When I started my career, I was like, I'll never do a sequel. I got enough original ideas, last me a lifetime. But, you know, you can watch Clerks 3 on home video, right? So in a world where I'm open to playing with my toys again, as I like to express it, you know, fucking Dogma would be amazing to play in that sandbox again. Because the kid who made Dogma, who wrote it and directed it, believed in everything you see on the screen. Like, that's not him making fun of religion. That's his fucking faith. I don't have that belief, those beliefs anymore. Now I have good ideas, as we say in the movie. So heading into a Dogma follow up is coming in from a completely different angle. The one that we've seen that people like, not the one I'm going to make that everyone will hate, but the one that I made that people like, came from, like 21, 22 years of a life, including eight years of, you know, Catholic school, 12 years of being an altar boy every Sunday in church and whatnot. So it was fed by my faith. And I wouldn't say I fetishized my faith, but I was a big fan of being Catholic. I think it was a big part of my identity and stuff. And then now I don't have that way in anymore. Now there's less life in front of me, you know, than there was behind me, which is the reverse of where I was when I wrote Dogma. I'm not in the same cosmology does not wash for me in these in this day and age. So it's presented like this crazy bridge back into the material from the complete other side. Young man wrote that first movie, an old man who's scared of dying and almost died a few years ago and then went crazy two years ago, is the one that's writing the sequel. So buckle up, kids. If you love Dogma, just keep on loving it. No guarantees on the sequel, but I'm having a fucking blast writing it, and I couldn't have done it unless Alessandra just came out of the woodwork. Now, the point of that whole story is I know people, and I made that movie, and I have direct connections to all the players and could get money, and I could not make any of this happen. We are literally living in Alessandra's dream. She was able to accomplish what I couldn't with my Own movie. As you know the kids say nowadays she can manifest the best manifester I've ever met in my life. If you're an up and coming filmmaker or a seasoned old pro, or an honest down and out fucking old broken boxer of a filmmaker like myself, get to know this woman. It's fucking crazy. Like we went to Cannes. I just got back from fucking Cannes. Like I'm doing this as if I need proof. Here's my fucking Cannes badge from 2025. We. I've been to Cannes three times in my life prior to this trip. Once in 1994 with clerks. Total accident. I never thought, you know, I was making a movie that would go to Cannes. We went into International Critics Week and wound up winning the Pre Dellagie nest with the prize of Youth and the International Critics Week Prize. Fucking nuts. Just blind luck. First timer, whatever the fucking shit. So never. I never had an expectation of going to Sundance. Like I didn't make Clerks thinking about Sundance because I was like, oh, they only take color movies, let alone did I ever think about camp. So I go with Clerks and oh my God, like, what a first time. We go back in 99 with dogma. This time we're official selection. So we get to walk up the Palais steps and we screen in the big theater in the Palais. But it's out of competition. So that's my second time to Cannes. And magical third time. 2006, we go back with Clerks 2. Once again, we get to walk the Palais step. It's midnight screening. We then go into the Debussy theater. For that, we get eight minutes standing ovation. Last time I was in Cannes, 19 years ago. It's been 19 years. What I assumed was being communicated was we're good, you know, with Kevin Smith movies. Because it's been a red hot fucking minute since I ever got anywhere near the festival and shit. So I had accepted that. Like I, you know, I'm one of these cats. It's like I'm a George Carlin acolyte. So I believe in entropy. He taught me about it at a young age in his comedy routines. Everything breaks down and shit. So in my head, everything's always breaking down. So in my head I was like, well, you'll never go back to Cannes. That was the time in your life that was magical in the beginning of your career. But you didn't wind up being a Cannes type filmmaker. You don't make can worthy movies anymore. So like, enjoy the fact that you ever went. I had my three certificates framed on the wall, my Laurels and shit. And then all of a sudden, Alessandra's like, I submitted the movie to Cannes, Dogma for this year. I was like, I don't. That don't matter. We already went like, they ain't gonna take it. They took it. Like, we wound up in a section I didn't even know existed called Cannes Classics, which normally the movie has to be 50 years old, but these cats were like, fuck it. And so they let us go over. So I'm like, holy shit. Like, I never thought I was gonna go back to Cannes, but I get to go back on the wings of Dogma. How? You know, pun intended. How awesome. So when I went back, I went back just ready for the victory lap, like, you know, and last time I was there, Jennifer was pregnant with Harley. So she's walking up the steps, and Harley's in her gut. This time I was like, oh, we could bring Harley. She could walk up the steps herself, and it'll be fun and shit. So we went with no expectation. I. Well, I should say I went with zero expectation of just anything, but, oh, how nice they remember me here. And as I was walking around the Quazette for, like, the week that I was there, man, like, it was crazy. It was like I was seeing all the places of my youth. I mean, you know, it's not like, shit changes in the south of France. Like, it's beautiful and it stays beautiful. So there's the pizza place that me and Scott Mosher ate at when we first landed in Nice, and we were fucking terrified. Didn't know what was going on and shit. Everyone's speaking French, and we're there with our dirty little black and white American film, which David Lindy, who was in charge of international sales at Miramax in the day, and then he would go on to run Universal years later, he swore to us at the Sundance Film Festival, he goes, I'm gonna sell the shit out of this movie overseas. And I was like, what? Why? How everyone speaks English. And he goes, that's why. He goes, this movie is so American. They're gonna eat this up. So when we went to Cannes, we got into the International Critics Week, Miramax went to work selling the movie and sold it everywhere. So I had this kind of international profile at the beginning of my career. So as I'm sitting there walking up and down the quas, I'm like, there's that place. There's this place. I walked past the venue where they were doing International Critics Week, man, and I was like, oh, like, I Saw the award ceremony with people heading in, and I got, like, real misty, where I was like, oh, my God, I should tell them, like, hey, man, I won the prize here. I'm looking at the International Critics Week Awards ceremony. Watching everybody, youngsters and oldsters going in, and I'm like, do I tell them? Do I go like, hi, man, I'll give an award out? Like, I got one a few years ago. And then I remembered it wasn't a few years ago. It was 31 fucking years ago that we were at Cannes. So as I'm going up and down, I was like, why do you assume that you'll never make a Cannes worthy movie? I'm very open to influence and always have been. And I've been a creature of the Internet since its inception. So the Internet has always told me, you're bad, Kevin. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. So the Internet tells me I suck at my job. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. I suck at my job. Just easier to believe. And I'm a codependent people pleaser. When I went nuts and I went to the booby hatch, they diagnosed me. Codependent people pleaser who cannot validate himself. So naturally, I'm prone to suggestion. So I just felt like, well, I guess everyone's right. Like, you know, I was. I did things when I was young, and now I'm just waiting for the clock to run out. And I always kind of like, chalked it up to like, yeah, I had your time, and your time was wonderful, and I have no complaints and stuff, but I had zero expectation that that journey would ever continue. Like, that part of my life I felt like was over. And now, like, I walk. I'm telling you, it lit a fire into me where I was like, you know what, man? Come back one more time. Like, sincerely, try to come back. I never tried to come the first three times, right? Like, I didn't try with Clerks. I didn't try with Dogma. We thought Dogma would be a Sundance movie. And I didn't try with Clerks, too. The timing just worked out. So I was like, just for once in your entire fucking career, before you leave this, best of all possible worlds, try to go to Cannes. Let's see what happens. And so we were in the 78th edition this year. So I'm going to try to go back for the 80th, the latest, the 81st man, if I can. But if I can rush real fast and pull everything together and, you know, it could be that I can make it in time for 80. So I was on stage at the opening of the Dogma screening, which was like just last week, eight days, nine days ago. And so Terry from O brings you up on stage and it was so lovely. They gave me like a standing ovation just for showing up, which I was like, oh, I'm old enough now where people are like, hey, he's been around for a long time. So when I was up there, I told them the exact story I told you. I was like, I, you know, honestly, I've been bitten by the bug. I said, I'm gonna come back in 80, the Cannes 80 with a dogma sequel. And the whole audience, like Terry from All on Stage goes, if it is good. Yes, good point. Excellent point. Way to bring my dreams crashing right back to reality, Terry. So. But the dream I'm in right now is not even my dream. This is Alessandro's dream. It's crazy that, like somebody so completely out of the side. The situation defined the current situation for Dogma, defined what it is now. So I've been out on the tour with the movie 20 Cities for the last month. And then I did Cannes and my God, it's been blissful. Re engaging with the movie because I have no choice but to watch it over and over again. And I get to see all my favorite people when they were at their absolute youngest. Oh my God, they look so young. Matt Damon looks like Matt Damon's daughter in the movie. So baby faced and shit. So it's been absolutely lovely and I have Alessandra to thank for you.
- [94:34]
Sean Fennessey
So hearing you tell that entire story. I was teleported back to Cornell in 2000 where I saw you speak.
- [94:41]
Chris Ryan
Were you there? Were you at the Cornell shop?
- [94:43]
Sean Fennessey
I was. And candidly, a kind of magical night for me and I was a huge fan before that. But what you were doing in front of all of us, which is what you just did, which is speaking at length, in depth, charmingly, with incredible self disregard, but we all knew you were the man. It's a very interesting magic trick that you're able to pull where you constantly point out that you think that people think that you suck, but we all love you, which is a great movie.
- [95:15]
Chris Ryan
I do though. I do. It's like it's not you and it's not the people who do like my stuff. But, you know, again, I'm a big boy. I was raised on the Internet, thank God. So I met the first troll in the beginning. I remember his name was B Buster. Lovely dude. I Still know him to this day. His name's Mike. And he lived to be like, you suck. And all this is all these people who like you are stupid. And so that negative reinforcement, since I was, you know, raised Catholic, much easier to accept about oneself. You got to remember, like, Martin Scorsese wanted to be a priest until he heard a different calling altogether, and that was his true vocation. But Martin Scorsese was put on this earth to tell stories with images. He is a true bona fide filmmaker, same as Quentin, same as Richard. Robert. These are cats that were put on this earth. Spielberg to make movies. I was just a movie fan who was like, that looks fun and aggregated to trying it. And that first attempt was not meant to be the start of a career. It was meant to be like, well, if I make this right, then if I ever try to do this again, maybe somebody will give me money. I don't have to put it on my own credit cards. So the journey winds up ironically beginning off of the first effort. And I've been ill prepared ever since. Man. When I was on tour with Dogma, there was a guy, I think it was in Chicago, he was lovely. He was sitting in like second row. And during the Q and A after the movie, he goes, has his hand up. I said, yeah. He goes, I've been watching you for years. 30 years he's gone. I started with Clerks and stuff and I've seen you. He goes, this is my 19th time seeing you live. And I was like, oh my God. He goes, now I bring my adult children. And he had a bunch of 20 somethings sitting around him and stuff. And he goes, I just gotta know, I've always wondered, what's your end game? And I was like, I don't have one. I was like, it's so weird. Like, I wasn't ready for any of this. Like, I wish I'd been prepared for a life in cinema or a life on the public stage or whatever the fuck. And I'm not saying like, you know, I don't want it. Of course I went after it, but I didn't think any of this was gonna happen. So I've just been making it up as I go along. So I told him, I said, look, my end game at this point, die on a movie set. Just go out, toes up, doing what I love and doing what most people associate me with. Robert Altman was, you know, one of the greatest American filmmakers who ever lived. Went out for my money, the absolute right way. Like, he died making a movie. He, you Know, allegedly a massive stoner in his old age, which is, you know, admirable. Why not? And then he had that. He left this world with the comfort of knowing Paul Thomas Anderson will finish the movie. Like, take me out that way. Like, oh, my God. That's the dream right there. So that's the kind of ethos that now informs Dogma. You got to remember the first time it was written. None of this shit. Like, no career, no. What do people think about me? None of that. Like, now going back into it and writing a Dogma sequel, it's such a weird different journey because I'm. For lack of a better description, I'm at the tail end of my fucking life at this point. I wrote Dogma at the beginning of my life. So it's. It's. I think it's worth the journey so far. You know, I feel like if you're good at this job, you know, the fucking movie begins for the audience before they even get to the theater. That's why I'm always talking about shit long before it happens. And if you're a magician, the movie keeps going. Like, for a lot of people in my world, Dogma has never ended it. Coming back to theaters, they're like, oh, that's nice. But I saw it at Kev's Theater, like, last year. So I tend to keep things going, extending them. Sometimes. Like, the movies branch off. Not in. Into strict sequels, but they're all interconnected. Sometimes I can write about them in comics and stuff like that. But my favorite way to keep the story going is this. Like, honestly, I'm pretty convinced that the last 20 years of my career have been me making movies just so I can go on stage and be like, let me tell you a story about making a movie. I ran into. Not even ran into. I went to the. They asked me to present an editing award to Waters. So they were like, you know, give a speech and then get out of the way. Because fucking Waters. He's like me. He loves the sound of his own voice. And he did not disappoint. His speech was fucking wonderful. But when we were backstage after the ceremony and stuff, taking selfies and shit, he said something to me that I. That I really loved him. And I. You know, he's. He's an absolute maestro and whatnot. But him and I are similar in the way in as much as we're both very chatty. And, you know, I've seen many people say the same thing of him, of me, which is like, you know, I'm not Real big fan of his movies, but I can listen to that guy fucking talk forever and stuff. And so I was. I got to. You know. I saw John, and I was just like, hey, man, I got a movie theater. Like, can you come and do what you do? I know you and I, we do a similar thing and stuff like that. And then he told me about this, like, gig that he was just about to go to, and it was a pretty cool gig. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. And he goes, it's all storytelling. He goes, whether I'm on a movie set or whether I'm standing there telling the story of making these movies, he's going, I'm a storyteller, so it doesn't really matter what venue I'm in. He's going in lately. This is the easiest venue to go into, like, where he could just talk. And he's such a raconteur, and he's got experience and wisdom on his side, so he's very easy to listen to. You know what I'm saying? He can talk the talk and walk the walk. And plus, he's just engaging as fuck. So I'm not saying. I ain't saying, like, Waters is, like, me, untalent. Waters is a genius, but I'm the filmmaker who. You know. Like, I always think of Fincher. Fincher is a filmmaker, makes a movie, never fucking says shit. You know what I'm saying? He puts it out there, and he.
- [101:31]
Sean Fennessey
Won'T come on this show. Kevin. I've been trying to get him for 10 years.
- [101:34]
Chris Ryan
I met him finally at. I don't know if I'm. Well, I mean, yeah, it happened. Ben Affleck and got married a couple years ago, and I think that's over. But I was at that wedding, and I was standing outside and. Was I. Yeah, I just. I was. I can't remember if I was a smoker in those days. I don't think I was. So I'm st. No, I was. So. I standing outside going, grab smoke, and this dude comes out, and we're standing there bullshitting for a second, and then he goes, kevin, I never introduced myself David Fincher. And I was like, that's what you look like. I was like, holy shit. I had no idea, man. Like, he's the filmmaker that, like, you know, he ain't like, you know, fucking.
- [102:22]
Sean Fennessey
Charles Foster Kane, but he's not a recluse. Yeah. He just doesn't do a lot of stuff.
- [102:26]
Chris Ryan
He don't feel the need to go out and explain his fucking Art. That's what I love about him as an artist. Like, he puts it out there, he's like, fucking the movie says everything I need to say. Because that's the way it used to be done. I'm of a generation of filmmakers that, because of Miramax, were pushed out in front of their movies because we were the cheapest way to market. Like, that's the only way I wind up being this guy. Because back in the day, that was the genius of Miramax is like, no budget release of a movie. You got yourself a movie comes from France, you got yourself a movie comes from America, made by unknown, starring unknowns. You're not going to get on the Tonight show or Letterman or Good Morning America unless you got some famous people. Except they found that these kids with their charming stories about how they got their movies made by hooker, by crooked, made for good TV and made for good, like, you know, interviews. So we were pushed out. That's how, you know, me and Quentin and Richard and Robert, we were of a generation of filmmakers where they were like, go speak for your work. And the directors, I'm not saying nobody ever knew a director's name, obviously. George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, George Cu. I mean, their names, of course. But generally speaking, directors weren't the sexy. You didn't necessarily know the director's name unless you were Cine east and stuff. But now mainstream people who don't really even consider themselves film fans, so to speak, can tell you a Wes Anderson flick, to say the very fucking least. So. But at that point, man, like, it was a. Like a different world altogether. And so I feel like those cats were put on this earth to do it. I'm part of a generation that was just such a big fan that I was like, I want to try it. And it worked out for me and stuff. And I still. I think about my man's question all the time. I'm like, what is my end game? You know, like, it should be like, win an Oscar. But that shit, like, is like, it was never part of my makeup. You might as well tell me to, like, win a fucking Grammy. You know what I'm saying? Like, at least an Oscar makes more sense because I work in film, but I just never saw myself as a guy who made awards movies. And so, you know, it's very easy for me to slag on Kevin Smith. Now, that being said, like, obviously it doesn't affect me to the point where I, like, I can't get anything done. Perhaps it's fuel. Like, you know, perhaps I tell people that don't like me and come after me on the Internet. I'm like, hey, man, you could do that, but it's a complete waste of your fucking time. Nothing good's going to come of it. What you do is you use me as your avatars, as a lily pad of some sort and recognize the fact that if I'm such an idiot and I'm making it work, then it is inevitable that you, who are full of talent, are going to accomplish the thing as well. And when you do accomplish that thing, guess who you don't care about anymore? Kevin fucking Smith. Because your dreams are coming true. So you're not sitting there going like, I hate this fucking guy. Suddenly I'm just another cat doing the fucking job. And I know wherever I speak, because I have been that person. There was people that I cared about before I did my thing and then I did my thing and I don't care about them anymore. You kidding me? Like, I count my blessings, keep my head down, and do my own fucking thing. So I, you know, it's, it's, it's been an interesting ride career wise, but it's so meta returning to Dogma country in a way that I like. Not just like, hey, we're doing a sequel one day, but like, to be out there and like, you know, meeting people who are like, I saw this movie with my grandmother. She's dead now, but that's why I came out to see it tonight in memory of her, or, hey, man, I watched this with a girl when I was a kid, and now we got three kids together. It's your fucking fault. And then just some people who, like, weren't around, you know, so many fucking young people came with their parents. It was like, you were cum when this movie happened the first time. But the most delightful public screening. And I love them all, don't get me wrong, the tour was great. In Cannes every night, I would always ask the audience is like, how many people have seen Dogma before? And 98% of the audience be like, I'd be like, how many people have never seen Dogma in a theater before? And then it would definitely be a high number, but not a high percentage. Not as high as, like, how many people have seen Dogma? And then I'd be like, and then how many people have never seen Dogma before tonight? And it was always like, under 10. We make fun of people for overpaying $50. Just see a movie they've never seen. I was like, this movie could suck fuck. When I went to Cannes and did that same thing. I was like, how many people have seen Dog Me before? Put your hands together and it was the reverse. Like, very few people had seen it in that room. I thought I was going to a room full of people who were like, hey, it's can classic. But there were a bunch of fucking young kids in there that had never seen the movie. So I wasn't going to sit there and watch the flick. But then I was like, how do I pass this up, man? Like, some of the kids there are American working at the American Pavilion, but some of the kids are just cities from France, Spain, all over Europe and shit. So I was like, I can't pass this up, man. Like, what's it gonna play like for the fresh audience? I've been on a nostalgia tour where everyone coming to see it has seen it before and has a built in affection for it. So to have this like, clean screening, so to speak, or the cleanest one I've had in a while with a bunch of people that admitted, like, I've never seen this movie was intriguing to me. And it was so fucking rewarding, man, because it was like, oh, like now after all these years, I'm like, I think people just laugh in all these places to be polite. Like, it's the same way. I think my wife just pretends to come to be polite. So being at that fucking screening, I was like, these ain't pretending shit. Like, some of them are struggling to understand the language and they're still keeping up with it. So that felt good. I spend a lot of time hearing shit about me as a filmmaker. People telling me that I'm no good at my job. But there are moments where I'm like, I don't know, like. Like not every movie gets to go to Cannes and I have one that went fucking twice. I've got two sets of laurels on one movie. Like, and I know that was an old movie, so people can amend it and be like, well, you haven't made a good movie in a long time, that's fine, whatever. But like, I don't know. This is the one thing I feel satisfied about, about when I'm done. Nobody's going to try to replicate this stupid ass career. You know what I'm saying? It will be singularly mine, like a work of art. Like, people be like, I ain't going to try that. It was fucking dumb. He made a lot of mistakes, but it is his, you know? So I, I kind of appreciate that aspect.
- [109:03]
Sean Fennessey
I know you got to go. I'm going to proffer a quick theory, and then I'm going to ask you the last question. The theory is this. I think everything that you said is true about the way that you guys were utilized to market the movies and that you. This was a pathway to being able to talk publicly. But I would argue, and you could agree with it or disagree with it, but that maps perfectly onto your art. There is a sequence in Dogma where Ben gives a speech in a parking garage to Matt's character. And I was like, that's how Kevin's brain works. There are moments when Jeff Anderson is talking in the clerk's films, and I'm like, that's how Kevin's brain works. There are sequences when Jason Lee's characters are talking in your movies, and I feel like that's how Kevin's brain works. In the same way that when I was in the audience in Cornell and when I've been listening to your podcasts and seeing what your life and career has become over the last quarter century, I'm like, I just like Kevin's brain. Maybe I don't love every movie, but I like the brain. But that is the art that you're making, so it's not. So don't denigrate yourself. You've done better than 99.999 to the nuthouse.
- [110:02]
Chris Ryan
They couldn't even beat it out of me, man. After a month, they were like, are you cured? I was like, no, I still don't like myself, and I still think I'm. But it has fueled all this. I mean, that's the thing. And the point that I made to them when I was in. In the booby hatch, like, there are moments where, you know, I could trace everything back to, like, where everything begins, where, you know, I start needing validation and shit if it doesn't happen, and if I then am not this needy creature constantly seeking validation from strangers. I mean, that's the trick, mind you. I don't. My mother gave me validation. My father gave me validation. My wife gives me validation, My kid, My dogs love me. Falls on deaf ears because I was like, they have to love me. Has to be. Has to come from fucking strangers and shit like that. So with all this time of, like, trying to grab, you know, 30 years spent seeking validation from strangers, I feel like, fuck, now I lost the question. What were we?
- [111:07]
Sean Fennessey
It wasn't even a question. It was just, I think what you're talking about, that you, like, transformed your career into a certain thing, was always the art. It was always the thing you were making in the films. They may not look like Quentin's films or whatever, but that is still the art that you were making. The only question I had was just that. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen. So do you. Has there anything. You run a movie theater.
- [111:26]
Chris Ryan
I do run a movie theater. And let me see, what did I. I just hear? This is a higher. As higher compliment as I could pay any movie as I'm writing the Dogma sequel. You know, you look for nourishment from movies that are like, oh. And, you know, sometimes they're there. It's very rarely one for one where it's like, you know, I'm not watching Dogma to get inspiration. It has to be something else. Things you aspire to or things that have captured your imagination or things that are incredibly fucking smart, which made me pay attention the first time around. So I've been rewatching the first hour of Heretic, which I fucking love. Like, not since I made Dogma. Well, I remember watching the movie, and, you know, I'd seen the trailer. I was like, that seems interesting. So I was watching the movie, and as it's playing the first, like, 20 minutes, this is me the whole time, where I was like, oh, oh, kindred spirit.
- [112:27]
Sean Fennessey
I was just gonna say the pop culture philosophizing of the film is right in your wheelhouse.
- [112:32]
Chris Ryan
Oh, my God. It was porn for me. So if you haven't seen Heretic. Absolutely Heretic. I adore Companion, which stars the same actress, Sophie Thatcher.
- [112:44]
Sean Fennessey
Yes.
- [112:46]
Chris Ryan
Fantastic. She's such a great actress, but she was wonderful. And Companion. And I thought Companion was so smart and original. I'd seen the trailer, and I knew kind of where it was going. I still didn't, like, on the day of. I was like, wow. I was very pleased by that the last year. You know, not like, awards matter. But I was like, she. They should have cleaned up the substance. Jesus Christ, man. You talk about a movie that is like, hold my beer to itself for the last half hour. You know what I'm saying? Like, I remember somebody saw it, and they're like, you're gonna love it. And I was like, why do you think that? Like, well, you made Tusk. And so I thought they meant for the rubber horror of it. And so I talked to him afterwards. Like, you didn't know when in your movie either? And I was like, you're out of your fucking mind. I'll take the heat on Tusk. But that the fact that she kept fucking going when it was like, all right, well, that's. Even if you ended it there, it would be further than most filmmakers would go. But every step of the way, I was like, this is one of the bravest acts of cinema I've ever seen in my fucking life.
- [113:55]
Sean Fennessey
Those are great recommendations, Kevin. Thank you for everything. And thank you for sharing some time.
- [113:59]
Chris Ryan
Such a pleasure, man. Thanks for having me on this great conversation.
- [114:07]
Sean Fennessey
Thank you to Kevin Smith, thanks to C.R. and Amanda, thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders. We'll be back on Friday. We're gonna. We were gonna do two different episodes. We were gonna do the Life of Chuck and Materialists. And I've seen Materialists. Now I've seen the Life of Chuck. Do you see Life of Chuck yet, Amanda?
- [114:22]
Amanda Dobbins
Going tomorrow. I gotta talk to you about the schedule, actually, but off the. Off. Off mic.
- [114:26]
Sean Fennessey
Okay. Off. Mike. I see some interesting connectivity between these two projects, so I think it would be good to put them together in a conversation about what we really want from movies and how do we get it.
- [114:42]
Kevin Smith
Isn't that a conversation?
- [114:44]
Sean Fennessey
Well, this one is uniquely well suited.
- [114:47]
Amanda Dobbins
To the two of us. Yeah.
- [114:48]
Sean Fennessey
Yes. So we will see you then.
- [114:55]
Chris Ryan
Sa.