Best Picture Power Rankings and Brutal Honesty About ‘The Brutalist’

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture – Best Picture Power Rankings and Brutal Honesty About ‘The Brutalist’

Release Date: January 31, 2025

Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins
Guest: Joanna Robinson and Sean Fennessey
Episode Focus: Best Picture Power Rankings and an in-depth analysis of the film The Brutalist

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Introduction

In this episode of The Big Picture, hosts Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins delve deep into the current Academy Awards race, focusing primarily on their Best Picture power rankings. A significant portion of the discussion centers around the highly anticipated film The Brutalist, with Joanna Robinson joining the conversation to assist in ranking the Best Picture contenders.

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In-Depth Analysis of The Brutalist

Amanda Dobbins initiates the conversation by expressing her enthusiasm and frustration with The Brutalist, stating, "I feel like [she] has questions about what you think about it" ([04:50]). The hosts explore the film's complex narrative, highlighting its portrayal of artistry, American capitalism, trauma, and the immigrant experience.

Key Themes Discussed:

• Artistry vs. Capitalism: The Brutalist examines the delicate balance artists maintain between creative integrity and commercial pressures. Sean notes, "it's about what artists need to make what they make" ([17:41]).

• Trauma and Assimilation: The film delves into the protagonist Lazlo Toth's traumatic past as a Holocaust survivor and his struggles with assimilation in America. Amanda remarks, "Why is she just... trying to navigate that relationship on his behalf?" ([45:00]).

• Character Study vs. Metaphor: The hosts debate whether Lazlo Toth is merely a vessel for broader themes or a fully developed character with personal flaws. Amanda questions, "Is this character developed at all?" ([24:14]).

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Fennessey: "This is about everything that you said. But it's really more about the intersection of all of those things and how they hit each other." ([18:03])
• Amanda Dobbins: "I have been thinking about it since I watched it again on a screener... It is of great art, right?" ([05:59])

The discussion also touches upon the film's technical prowess, including its use of archival footage and memorable set pieces like the Statue of Liberty scene and the architectural marvels depicted within the movie.

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Best Picture Power Rankings

Joanna Robinson joins the panel to assist in power ranking the Best Picture nominees. The conversation is lively, with the hosts debating the merits of each contender based on various factors such as direction, screenplay, performances, and cultural impact.

Final Power Rankings:

1. The Brutalist
   Topped the charts due to its ambitious storytelling and thematic depth.

2. Emilia Perez
   Gained momentum through strong performances and critical acclaim.

3. In Nora
   Recognized for its nuanced portrayal of characters and compelling narrative.

4. A Complete Unknown
   Acknowledged for its traditional Oscar appeal and well-crafted screenplay.

5. Conclave
   Secured a spot with its screenplay and editing accolades.

6. Substance
   Entered the rankings with significant nominations and critical support.

7. Wicked
   Rose to prominence despite lacking nominations in certain key categories.

8. Nickel Boys
   Honored for its screenplay and potent storytelling.

9. I'm Still Here
   Recognized for its unique narrative and strong performances.

10. Dune Part 2
    Placed at the bottom due to mixed reviews despite its visual grandeur.

Notable Insights:

• Ambition vs. Execution: Sean comments, "The Brutalist is reaching for something that maybe it cannot achieve, but it is reaching," reflecting on the film's ambitious nature despite its flaws ([23:47]).

• Cinematic Craftsmanship: The hosts emphasize the importance of technical aspects like editing and screenplay in determining a film's success in the Oscars race.

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Fennessey: "A slightly unexpected but strong contender is The Brutalist because it inspires movie fandom and filmmaking enthusiasm." ([122:12])
• Amanda Dobbins: "It's an amazing achievement on so many levels. Performance craft, ideas... it's just the conversation around it that's so valuable." ([128:44])

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Oscar Race Controversies and Campaigns

The episode also delves into various controversies affecting the Oscar race, including smear campaigns and AI-related debates surrounding nominees like Emilia Perez. The hosts discuss how these controversies might influence Academy voters and the overall outcome of the Best Picture race.

Key Points:

• Smear Campaigns: Amanda highlights ongoing smear campaigns targeting nominees, questioning their authenticity and motives. "There's a pretty organized, just detraction of its portrayal of both trans characters and Mexico," she states ([101:15]).

• AI and Ethical Concerns: Discussions around the use of AI in filmmaking and its impact on nominations, particularly concerning The Brutalist and Emilia Perez.

Notable Quotes:

• Amanda Dobbins: "It's really hard to replicate what happened there [referring to historical smear campaigns]." ([142:43])
• Sean Fennessey: "It all feels a little bit more surface than some of the sort of deep State Harvey moves that we used to see." ([127:51])

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Concluding Thoughts and Final Rankings

As the episode wraps up, the hosts finalize their power rankings, placing The Brutalist at the top, followed by Emilia Perez, Conclave, and others. They reflect on the unpredictability of the Oscars and acknowledge that while The Brutalist may have imperfections, its ambitious nature and thematic resonance could propel it to win Best Picture.

Final Remarks:

• Embracing Ambiguity: Sean emphasizes the importance of accepting the unpredictable nature of the Oscars, stating, "Everything else on the list is a movie I either like or love." ([72:31])

• Canon Potential: Amanda contemplates whether The Brutalist will cement its place in cinematic canon, noting, "I think it's probably like in the new film nerd canon, it's probably already there." ([78:44])

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Fennessey: "Can this movie be great even if it's not fully great? Not 100% great? Yes. Because no movie is." ([73:00])
• Amanda Dobbins: "It's a long movie that's hard to see in the intended format, and I think that it might just not. Even if it wins Best Picture, I don't think it will be seen as widely as many of the other movies that you just mentioned." ([86:01])

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Conclusion

This episode of The Big Picture offers a comprehensive exploration of The Brutalist and its standing in the Best Picture race. Through engaging discussions, the hosts provide listeners with nuanced insights into the complexities of Oscar campaigning, film analysis, and the unpredictable nature of awards. Their thoughtful analysis and passionate debate underscore the multifaceted considerations that go into evaluating films for the highest honors in cinema.

Key Takeaways:

• The Brutalist stands out for its ambitious themes and technical craftsmanship, positioning it as a strong contender for Best Picture.
• The Best Picture race is influenced by both the intrinsic qualities of the films and external factors like smear campaigns and AI controversies.
• Final rankings reflect a balance between personal appreciation and critical acclaim, with The Brutalist leading the charge despite its imperfections.

Notable Quotes for Reference:

• "No movie is 100% great, but The Brutalist is reaching for something commendable." – Brian Curtis ([23:47])
• "Understanding that no matter what an artist does, people will always use what they do to their own ends." – Sean Fennessey ([77:09])
• "The final product is what matters most, not the journey or the imperfections along the way." – Amanda Dobbins ([37:00])

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By providing a structured and detailed overview, this summary ensures that listeners who haven't tuned in can still grasp the depth and breadth of the discussions held in this episode of The Big Picture.

Transcript

[Brian Curtis]

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from the Ringer and I want to tell you about the Press Box Podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for anybody who likes news, whether it's about sports or politics or pop culture, and wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have new shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from Jon Krakauer to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out. Join us on the Press Box. This episode is brought to you by Nerds Gummy Clusters, the sweet treat that always elevates the vibe with a sweet gummy surrounded with tangy, crunchy nerds. Every bite of Nerds Gummy Clusters brings you a whole new world of flavor. Whether it's game night, on the way to a concert, or kicking back with your crew, unleash your senses with Nerds Gummy Clusters.

[Sean Fennessey]

This episode is brought to you by Intuit. TurboTax didn't file with TurboTax last year. That's in the past. Now Taxas is getting the TurboTax app and filing your own taxes for free. If you didn't file with them last year, file by February 18th. All tax forms, all 100% free. Now this is taxes intuit, TurboTax, new filers and filers who didn't use TurboTax last year only must start and file your own taxes in app by February 18th. Excludes TurboTax Live full [e-mail].

[Brian Curtis]

I'm Sean Fennese.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

[Brian Curtis]

And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about brutal boys and brutal girls. Today is the day. It's a very important day on the Big Picture. Certainly will be best Picture Power ranking with our friend Joanna Robinson. We may talk a little bit about Nosferatu, but most importantly, Amanda is here to talk about the Brutalist Banana. We're back.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I want you to start singing the disco remix. Honestly, it's a great score.

[Brian Curtis]

The world has been waiting, honestly, months to hear you talk about this movie. I've been waiting months. This episode, we have a few things on the plate. We're going to talk about the Brutalist. At last you have seen the film. You're ready to talk about it. You saw Nosferatu. I'll share some thoughts about that movie. And then Joanna Robinson will join us, as she has throughout this season, to help us rank the best picture contenders. And now that we have 10 nominees and we have quite a few scandals emerging minute by minute, people are going for it. Yes, there is we are in a tax season in the Academy Awards and so will set the table for where things stand right now in, honestly, a fascinating best picture race, probably the most interesting one we've had since we started doing this. And there's a lot of math that can be done and there's also a lot of emotions that can be parsed. So we'll dig into that with Joe after we have our conversation about these two films. So the Brutalist. I feel like we're working in reverse here because I had a big, long conversation with Adam Naiman about the movie at the end of December.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. Great conversation.

[Brian Curtis]

Thanks. Um, and I, I, I love that conversation too. Um, a lot of that conversation, a lot of it was about the text and a lot of it was extra textual.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

You know, it was about the marketing strategy of the movie and how the movie would be received and what we should. How much of the film should we focus on and how much of the apparatus of selling a movie like this should we focus on?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

Which I love. And you know, you and I always talk about that stuff too, but maybe at the expense a little bit of talking about the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I do think it's essential to the discussion of the film and you guys were right to talk about it because it was such a phenomenon and how it became such a phenomenon is some, somewhat about the movie and also somewhat about, like, the moment in film culture that we are in and the marketing and a 24 and Brady Courbet's very specific cat campaign and the narratives that he has constructed and given in interviews, which I have to be honest, I only know about from the conversation that you did with Adam. And I did not listen to either interview that you did afterwards.

[Brian Curtis]

Oh, interesting. Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Because I would like to have a conversation about the text as much as possible. And I certainly avoided it beforehand because I was like, I don't want spoilers. And I do also know it was already vibrating on a frequency that annoys me sometimes. And so I was like, I'm just not going to do it. And I'm going to go and I'm going to see the film and we'll talk about the film. So I'm really excited to do that, but that's, that's what I want to do.

[Brian Curtis]

That's what we're here to do. So I ask you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

What did you think of the film the Brutalist?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it's remarkable. It has been living rent free in my head since I saw it. And I came home, My husband still hasn't seen it. And I was like, can you go see it? When can you see it? I've been sending him showtimes and consulting on his calendar to be like. Cause I wanna talk with him about it. And I have been looking forward to this. Cause I wanna talk with you about. Is an absolute achievement. Does it all work? I really don't know. And I really wanna talk with you about that. And I don't mean that in, like, a bad faith way or that I'm annoyed at, you know, some of the speeches about whatever. I just. I had a reaction walking out of the movie. I have been thinking about it since I watched it again on a screener. No one judged me. Like, I saw it for the first time at the Vista.

[Brian Curtis]

You did your work.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Like, get off my dick. I did what I was supposed to do. But I, like, I have. I have questions. I have questions about what you think about it. And that, in its way, is like this sign of great art, right?

[Brian Curtis]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it totally holds up in that sense.

[Brian Curtis]

We have a brutal girl.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, but I'm not a brutal girl. And I also think that there are.

[Brian Curtis]

And we have not even defined what that means.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. I think I invented it. So I do honestly think that maybe I coined Brutalist Boys.

[Brian Curtis]

I don't remember who said it first.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But, I mean, we did together. And I was like, we have to talk about these guys on the Internet posting about this.

[Brian Curtis]

I have been getting IG DMs from many women who say, sean, I want you to know I stand with you in this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And allow me to say to our dear friend Alex Ross Perry, who I love so much. I have to be honest. There was a line in the women's room at intermission at the Vista. Oh, no, there was. I mean, I got there first because I was like, I really need to pee. So I.

[Brian Curtis]

And you saw it, like, three after release. Like, it was still. You saw the Vista?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I think I saw it maybe on the last week of their run.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah. So let's just do, like, the arc of the movie's release a little bit. Because we started doing the Brutalist Boys bit, which is very funny. And in the tradition of a lot of the it's so over, we're so back stuff that we do here on the show. And then I saw the movie and I was like, this is not a good movie to have this bit about. Cause this is a very complicated movie that, as I said on the last episode, is like, very much about pain and whose pain it is. We can do, discuss and debate and who has the right to that pain. But it is a very, very sincere movie. There's nothing smarmy or like, it may be self inflated, but it's not modern. You know, it is trying to be a kind of like straight faced, sincere portrayal of a particular state of mind. And it is using deeply traumatic history to convey that feeling. So it's a little weird to be like, we're in a cult together of this film, but.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And it has, I guess, since the canisters, you know, rolled their way from Venice to New York to your loving arms, and since. And again, like, I, I really tried not to engage with this because I do think it would like, turn you off against the movie. But I have become aware of the narrative that Brady Courbet has spent embracing in interviews of like, this is about the challenges of filmmaking and it's about many things, but one of. And it's, and I think the movement has leaned into that. Like, if I am a, if I'm a cinema guy, I love canisters, I love VistaVision, I love Final Cut for directors, by the way. I also like all of those things. Um, I, you know, you know, what's.

[Brian Curtis]

More, much more important than all those things, which is something that he's also talked about, is a hard line on creativity and artistic boldness. Like, forget about the canister, forget about the tech.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but here's the thing. Like, we all, those of us who live in Los Angeles all saw the lines out the, the door at the Vista. I was very stressed out about, like, am I gonna be able to get a seat? Like, do I have to wait an extra 30 minutes in line? There was like a little mini online phenomenon about it. And then I think that was external and a little bit about like being part of a film culture, because that's from people who hadn't seen the movie.

[Brian Curtis]

But how is that any different from Marvel or any other kind of movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's not, but it's like, in fact, it is very similar to Marvel. And that's cool.

[Brian Curtis]

But is it not similar to Nancy Myers?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, yeah, we're not brutal. Boy, you know, we're not Nancy Myers.

[Brian Curtis]

We're not genderizing this conversation. I just mean like in terms of having a passion for a certain kind of thing and defining yourself by the culture you like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally.

[Brian Curtis]

It can lead to conversations with annoying guys. I won't deny that for sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's true. I guess Nancy Meyers does not lead to as many conversations with annoying guys.

[Brian Curtis]

That's True.

[Amanda Dobbins]

One of many things.

[Brian Curtis]

Usually just me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

One of many things I really love about her. But anyway, just to the point of, like, brutal boys, in the sense that this movie was a phenomenon, even, like, before people had seen it, I think it does crystallize that film. But you're right. Then you see the movie and you're like, oh, okay, this is a lot. Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

So let's talk about it, because I do want to circle back to some of the directorial intent that you're talking about. And the way to market a movie reminded me of another movie that we talked about and disagreed about in 2024 that we can go back to, but the movie itself. We're going to spoil this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Horizon Part 1.

[Brian Curtis]

That isn't the movie I'm thinking of. I won't even tell you the title. So I'll keep you on your toes. You know, anyone who hasn't had a chance to see it, we necessarily have to get into this. Into the story. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Anyone who tweets at me being like, you spoiled part of this movie. You're automatic block. Okay, let me just. Or tweets or, you know, blue skies or Instagrams or whatever. Like, publicly shamed. This is a spoiler one. Okay, listen, do this. Do the siren. Bobby, That's. I've really gotten into the siren as a listener of the big picture, you know, just been catching up. Really good stuff, Bob.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm doing fine work here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Every day I try there. I did my own.

[Brian Curtis]

Maybe that should be the new siren. Is the siren call and then me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yelling, I will block you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Spoiler warning.

[Joanna Robinson]

Siren 2.0. Like the. Like the dubstep remix at the end of the Brood Wars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Just like it's a movie podcast. Like, what else do you want us to do?

[Brian Curtis]

I'm not going to negotiate the spoiler.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Conversation with the public at large of my personal life, like, for content on this podcast and other ones. But, like, sometimes we do have to talk about the films we.

[Brian Curtis]

And we are about to right now. Now, one thing that we did that was different, that's different from usual episodes. I usually put the outline together and then you add notes to the outline. This time around, I shared you what I had with Adam. But you did your version of the outline. So I did. I think you should take us through the story a little bit. Do you even want to describe the plot of the Brutalists in any way? Is that useful for those listening at home? It is something I try to do, and I find myself fumbling through almost every episode.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, of The Brutalist, or of all. You write it down. Normally in the film Trap, there's a.

[Brian Curtis]

Dad, that dad has a daughter, and then that daughter and the dad go to a show.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, so there is. There's the plot recap, which is Lazlo Toth, Hungarian, Jewish, Holocaust survivor, American immigrant. He comes to stay with his cousin, winds up syncing up with this family outside of Philadelphia, which I knew that it was gonna be set in Philadelphia, but that was.

[Brian Curtis]

It is a Philadelphia movie. And what Philadelphia means to America.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, we don't need that this next week. We just don't.

[Brian Curtis]

Well, the Brutal boys, they can watch the super bowl.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then, you know, so and is commissioned to do a. Like a reading room, a library, and then gets swept up into the world of this family and this industrialist. I was going to say Martin Van Buren. Harrison Van Buren. But the conflation is intentional. And then Harrison Van Buren commissions him to build a community center in Doylestown. And then the construction of the community center and toss assimilation, or lack thereof, into America proceeds, along with the arrival of his wife and niece, all from Europe. And, you know, shit unravels, I would say. Or does it? I mean, it does. But there is a very memorable ending that we don't need to get to quite yet. The ending contains a lot of narrative revelations that I think it's an interesting choice and a memorable choice, but we should talk about that and how it tells you what you know and when you know it.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. So that's the.

[Brian Curtis]

That's the spot.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you so much. Then there is just, like, the basic, like, visual recap and all of the very memorable set pieces, like, starting with the coming out of the ship into the Statue of Liberty upside down, which has become the poster. And it's not actually the first scene of the movie, which is notable. Put a pin in that. But as a banger. And the door opens and ba, ba, ba, ba. And then you see this shot that you've been sort of primed to be waiting for. I mean, that is just like a. Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

If you like going to the movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What a way to open a movie.

[Brian Curtis]

This is a way to open a movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then trying to think of, like, other, like, other memorable shots or moments. A lot of archival footage is used. There is the building of the reading room, which, you know, this is a movie about architecture. So that is like an incredible architectural set piece. There is the march up the hill to the commission, I guess you could call it. There's every very weird sex scene, which I do Want to talk about?

[Brian Curtis]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess, including, most importantly, and I think sex scene is a euphemism, big time. But the Carrera set piece and then what happens in Carrera and then the epilogue. Am I missing anything else? Oh, I guess like the final. I mean, the dinner party scene at the end. But that's more narratively weird than visually remarkable, in my opinion.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah. I think this isn't necessarily visually remarkable, but one of the centerpiece scenes is the conversation the cocktail shared between Lazlo and Harrison, which is sort of like them confirming their affair in a lot of ways, making certain that they will come together to make something, which is, I find to be one of the most intoxicating, somewhat ridiculous and wonderful movie scenes in recent history.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like just the. They're sharing a cocktail. I mean, that's it.

[Brian Curtis]

He shares his story and then he shares his philosophy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And. Yeah, that is the centerpiece of the movie. I was just thinking more in terms of actual visual. And that, appropriately, is. They're seated. But character wise. Yeah. That's the banger. That's the real.

[Brian Curtis]

I love that sequence.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's when it jumps out and then ideas. What is this movie about? Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

Can you try to set aside what you think or have heard Brady Corbett talk about?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No. Yeah, of course. Because I haven't heard.

[Brian Curtis]

That is what I tried to do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I haven't heard that much. But it is about art and the pursuit of art and really, I guess, the pursuit of anything great and what comes in your way and how often. That is, in fact, American. American capitalism. It is about capitalism. It is about immigration and assimilation. It's about. About. I'm so sorry to say it. It is about trauma. You know, it is. And loss.

[Brian Curtis]

And that's something I want to zero in on. On one of your key questions about this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And it is about. What else is it about?

[Brian Curtis]

I mean, I think an important part of it that is easy to understand even without listening to interviews with the filmmakers is what artists need to make what they make. Painters just need a canvas and some paint. Architects.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Need a lot. They need a lot of money, raw materials, labor. They need patrons. And honestly, painters need patrons and filmmakers need patrons. And the movie is about this tenuous relationship not just between those two characters, but then what happens when something goes out into the world after it has been funded and who controls its story.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

Which is critical to the end of the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

So, you know, I have had the fortune of seeing the movie three times, so I've been able to think about this movie a lot. And I have evolved the way that I think about it a lot. The first time I watched it, I was just like, damn, I just love a big movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

You know, like, it wasn't that unsophisticated, but it's not. It's hard to not get swept up in the. The achievement of just. Even just the physical production of the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the other thing that it is about and that the epilogue makes very clear is that, I mean, it's about the Holocaust and it's about the Holocaust survivors, and it sort of literalizes that in a way that is notable. And that has made me pause when thinking about some of the other themes, like the. You know, I mean, I felt nervous.

[Brian Curtis]

About this the first time I saw it, and now I think I have a handle on the way that the film sees it or at least a way to interpret it. And I don't think it's as squishy as I did before.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

Even if it's ambiguous, I don't think it's squishy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I'm not. I'm not even talking about, like, the Zionism claims, which we don't, like, really need to. You know, we don't. We don't have to go there. But, like, the basic equation of if this is about what an artist needs to make what they are making, then ultimately what Toth is making is like a memorial to his imprisonment, like imprisonment in a concentration camp, I think equating pretty much any other form of art to that. And it's like, I don't know if I would go. Always go there. I don't know if I would do it.

[Brian Curtis]

I don't know if that is specifically what his intention, though. The movie does not confirm that. It only has another character communicate that idea.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

And so I think you can also be skeptical about the artist's intention. Now, one of the tricky things about this movie and trying to talk about it is Brady has talked a lot about what the movie's about.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Some filmmakers don't do that. You know, like, I know I've interviewed Paul Thomas Anderson a couple of times. He never fucking talks about what the movie means. He never explains it. And he did explain it when he was younger. And as filmmakers get older, they realize leaving some things unexplored leaves a lot for people like us. So I think it's hard not to plant that onto it. But the one thing that I would just, like, pull back a little bit from, in terms of how you were defining it, And I think everything you said is right, is when you think about the artist and you think about what Lazlo Toth encounters, it ultimately becomes a much bigger metaphor. Not just about artists trying to make something great, but about anybody coming to America or anybody in America.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

Trying to find a way towards success, personal salvation, the realization of some feeling that they have and that they've been told that they can have and that it breaks. It doesn't work. It's a lie. Right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

And then the secondary aspect of that is, if America is not what it says it is, do we have to go somewhere else? Which is where I think some of the Zionism and post Holocaust search for refuge comes into discussion, which is sort of like, was it a necessary but evil function of the failure of America or the lie of America? Which is like, these are very complicated and thorny issues that are being debated today. Today in our world. And so the movie, to me, on the. Not just on the surface, but even under the surface, is about everything that you said. But it's really more about the intersection of all of those things and how they hit each other. Like, it's not just like, assimilation is here and the immigrate immigrant experience is here, and the life of an architect is here, and the relationship between the artist and capital is here. It's like they hit each other. They all touch each other. And so even though the movie, a lot of people have said, is very messy, especially in the second half, and I really want to talk to you about that, it's trying to be messy. It's trying to discomfort you with what happens when the collision occurs rather than the perfect execution occurs.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

So I think I'm even warmer on it now than I was the first time around.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I am, as I said, I try not to listen to any of the extra textual stuff, but I have seen Brady Courbet's other movies and this stew of historical tragedies mixed together with alarming frequency.

[Brian Curtis]

This is his move.

[Amanda Dobbins]

In order to produce, like, a story about, you know, trauma and how everyone has let a main character down and how that wrecks someone is like, you're right, that happens every time. And every single time I have bristled a little at just the, like, the almost like, Supermarket Sweep nature of historical tragedy. Like putting it. Putting it in a blender, and that it's, like, intentional and that the movie knows what it's doing, but I don't know if it always gels for me. And sometimes I think. I think this is the most successful Version of it. I thought, like, Box Lux was the stupidest version of it. But I. You know, you're right that it's on purpose. Does that mean that it totally coheres? I don't know.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah. Part of the trap I kept falling down in my discussion with Adam is I see every movie, and most movies are terrible. And so we have arrived at a movie that is wildly ambitious and just, like, rippling with ideas, you know, that is working so hard, and maybe too hard, but working so hard to communicate that it is interested in a lot of things.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right?

[Brian Curtis]

And then we're like, yeah, but is it, like, too many things or is it too big or too Supermarket Sweep? And I'm like, I don't know. What do we want?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I mean, the final point of this conversation will be, does a capital G great movie have to nail everything down to be capital G great? And I have been turning it over in my head. So let's talk about the rest of the movie, and then we'll talk about it.

[Brian Curtis]

Go ahead. Where do you want to go next?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I want to talk about Lazlo Toth, because so many of the ideas that we just enumerated, and you've been describing it as like a micro epic, but really a character study. And there are several characters in this movie worth exploring, but he is, like, the vessel for most of the things. And I've. At points in the film, while watching it the first time, I was like, wow, this is the most amazing performance I've ever seen. And I'm really fixated on this. And at some other points, I was like, okay, I see, like, the metaphors, like, walking around in, like, incredible sweaters. By the way, this is my Laszlo Toth outfit. And just tremendous fits throughout. And sometimes I was like, is this character developed at all? Is this person just. Is this literally a vessel and the receiving end of everything else and all other ideas and all other sources of action and development? And I'm not totally sure where I land. So it's memorable. But, you know, maybe it's just like the giant cross shining down at the end of it. But I was like, there is some, like, Christ, like, stuff going on here throughout this movie, which, you know, for a Jewish, like a very decidedly Jewish character, even though he ultimately gives up on his faith.

[Brian Curtis]

Well, Christ was a Jew, as we know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, we do know that. That's true. I. I do remember during the three and a half hour run being like, okay, but, like, you gotta do something, you know, like this. I need, like, a little Bit more from. I like, I need some action from him and that may be the point.

[Brian Curtis]

So. Okay, I think this is a really good question. I hadn't thought about it this way and it made me think about it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

I don't know if you're going to like my answer.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's fine.

[Brian Curtis]

But I'm going to give it to you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

We only meet Laszlo for what is it roughly, like a 13 year stretch of his life. It's in the immediate aftermath of the most traumatic thing that could happen to a person. He survives the Holocaust. He escapes Europe amidst World War II and gets out and comes to America. He's been separated from his wife, who is clearly like his emotional twin. You know, the person who is. He is like completely wrapped his life around, at least intellectually and emotionally. And he doesn't have that person. He's in a new land. He's not speaking his native language. And he has just witnessed the worst things in the universe. He's in Dachau.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, he's Buchenwald.

[Brian Curtis]

He's in Buchenwald. Excuse me. She's in Dachau. Of course, we don't really get to know this guy. He's deeply traumatized. He's unable to. He either is unable or doesn't want to communicate. He very quickly slips into heroin addiction because he's obviously trying to quiet whatever is inside him. And he's deeply damaged. And through this time he's re traumatized a couple of times, some ways that are more, that are less severe by like having his agency taken away from him in other ways that are incredibly violent and invasive. So we don't see the young kid at Bauhaus wowing us. We don't see how his mother treated him. We don't see what his life was like between the ages of 50 and 70 before he became more infirmed. We don't see really any happy times. We only see bad times. And when things are bad. And when things are bad for a lot of men, as you know, they tend to go very internal. They tend to not communicate.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

And he doesn't communicate a lot.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think it's not, it's not the lack of communication. And even I know, you know, people have been like, well, he kind of has a temper and he's meant to reflect. Frankly, I don't think his temper is that bad. Like every single complaint he has, it's grounded in reality. Maybe he shouldn't throw the book at the contractor. But that's kind of.

[Brian Curtis]

That wasn't nice.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's not nice. And that's kind of when you, like, violate some HR things. But otherwise, he's just exacting, you know? So that's what I have to say.

[Brian Curtis]

I really enjoy when he pulls the other architect aside. He's like, everything that is ugly and stupid and especially ugly is yours. Yes. When you mentioned that one of the centerpiece scenes is that conversation between Harrison, which is like, all charm and all ideas, I view the one release moment is a moment when I talked to Adrien Brody. I tried to signal this to him without actually spelling it out. And he didn't know what I was talking about, which I thought was notable, but I was like, the one time when you let loose, when you explode is when he's in the car with Erzebet and he's like, they don't want us here. They don't want us here. That's like him finally verbalizing what it has taken him 10 years to get off his chest or to feel comfortable saying or whatever, that he feels as alienated here as he did in Europe. He feels as. As unwanted, as hated, as misunderstood. And then that, like, sets up what's coming next with, they're in New York, and nephew and niece are moving to Israel. And should they move to Israel as well, or should they stick it out in New York? And so I do see him as basically, like a restrained. A forcibly restrained artist who doesn't know how to talk. And so you don't get a lot of what you're, I think, circling for.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think what I'm bumping on. And it's not the performance and it's not their restraint, which all makes sense. And which I, like. I think is like, frankly, magic. And, like, the pain and, like, the. There's just almost like a. A. A door to Adrien Brody's, like, heart that just, like, keeps open and closing without saying anything. Like, it's really, really phenomenal.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Remarkable. But, you know, on the one hand, Lazo Toss encounters, like, every single bad thing that, like, could ever happen. I mean, he does. And it is also true that, like, none of it is his fault. You know, like, it's all being done to him. But as a result, you don't see him make a mistake. You don't see he's. Well, he's. He's, like, pretty inhuman in the sense.

[Brian Curtis]

Of he does feed his wife heroin to get her out of a spell and almost kills her.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But even that, it's, like, because she's in so much pain, and that's. And that is also, like, where they get to have, like, an emotional connection. And he confesses, like, his deepest, darkest secret to her. And then, like, this is like, when.

[Brian Curtis]

I go shopping for Campari for you and my wife, just trying to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There's so much Campari at your house.

[Brian Curtis]

There's a lot. Right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know. I was like, what's going on here? I mean, yeah, like. Like he's not living, like, a. Like a perfect life, but even, like, you know, his multiple hand jobs.

[Brian Curtis]

The first one, he's got a thing he likes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But that one, he. Like, the first one when he arrives in the US and he's like, I don't really. I don't really want this. You know, I just want the hand job, because anything else would be too close. Cause really, like, in the back of his mind, like, he still loves his wife, you know, and he's getting bullied.

[Brian Curtis]

By his friend into getting a hand job. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then, you know, like, you. He meets Gordon, and he's like, well, I'm just gonna stay in line overnight so that your kid can get some food. Which is, like, a wonderful thing to do. But there is. There's, like. There's. He has no flaws, you know? And I think even. Even his terseness and his. His exacting idea of what this monument should be. I mean, again, you shouldn't throw, like, notebooks at other people. But otherwise, that is presented, and I think we are meant to see it as like a. Some. A commitment to something holy and bigger.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then what it is actually revealed to be, which is like, we are trying. He is. He's so mad about the height of the ceilings because he's trying to recreate, like, the exact specifications of his cell at Buchenwald. You're like, okay, so there. He's a little blameless. And I find that. I don't. I found that limiting when I was watching it. I was like, when are you. Or it made me aware of. Of outside forces of the movie or something. Do you know what I mean?

[Brian Curtis]

The associative quality. The filmmaker would imbue a character with that idea.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I was just like, okay, but I've been here for three and a half hours, and, like, maybe you should make one mistake.

[Brian Curtis]

I think it's extremely astute. And you're not wrong. I think you can rationalize it as I have.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And, I mean, heroin is bad. Don't do it. Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

I mean, he has a very bad temper. He's extremely, emotionally closed off. He's downright awful to his wife when she comes to America. I would say he's not as quite as saintly as you're portraying it, but the idea that you located is right, which is that this character is valorized in this world, which is mostly a broken, corrupt, grubby world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

And if you look at the movies that this movie has been compared to, let's just use the Godfather, because that's an easy way to explain it. Michael Corleone is. Is not sympathetic.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, not at all. No.

[Brian Curtis]

By the end of the first Godfather film, he's essentially the villain. And in the second Godfather film, he's sort of Satan. And obviously, that is a choice that we make, and we say, oh, well, then the filmmaker isn't associating himself specifically with that point of view. He's more elucidating the way that systems and families work and the way that the nation, you know, like, imprints these ideas on us and makes us burn each other down. As opposed to an artist who is historically a more saintly figure, a figure that operates in solitude and creates something special that no one could understand but the artist. But that's what I believe too. I'm a person who talks about art for a living and likes it and wants to believe in the holiness of the act. So it doesn't really bother me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess I believe in the holiness of the art and not the act. And I think that's why I talk to the directors. Yeah. I mean, honestly, it is because I do sometimes at some point, get impatient with what is undeniably like, a very hard thing to do. And there is a lot of work that goes into making anything, and that is just like the practical, physical work before you deal with everyone else who's trying to make a buck off you, which is the only way to get it out there. Which, like, the impatience that Toth has for literally everyone else in his life is, like, inspiring to me. You know, I understand.

[Brian Curtis]

You are the brutalist.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. So I understand all of that, but I, like. I get tired of listening to it because it doesn't affect. To me, the result is the result. You either get there or you don't. And maybe I'm pre figuring, like, how I feel about things. I don't know. Maybe this is therapy. We're discovering it in real time. But I think this is why this.

[Brian Curtis]

Is such a special movie. This movie confronts you with all of these ideas and asks you to think about how you really feel about them. But that does not happen in Fucking the Fall Guy. Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I agree with you, I said all of that. But I do also think I feel differently than what the movie is putting forth. And it's like, again, to me, I was thinking about this with, like, when you guys were talking about a Complete unknown, which is a very, very different type of movie in a lot of ways, but is at least, you know, it's about an artist and I.

[Brian Curtis]

And interestingly, doesn't take that saintly portrait.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. And also I think it to your frustration, at least in the first conversation you had with Mal and Chris before you guys just, like, started, like, exchanging bootlegs. It doesn't explain anything about him and is maybe also, like, incurious. And it really just does present him as, like, well, this, like, intriguing and, like, undeniably, like, magically talented person just.

[Brian Curtis]

Shooting a shadow swept into town.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And that, to me is exhilarating that you just get presented with something. And I do believe that some people have genius and some people just don't. And that is part of what makes it genius. And so I don't mean to diminish the struggle, but this movie does also end by saying it's the destination, not the journey. So the holy thing at the end is. Is more what matters to me than all of the whining.

[Brian Curtis]

Do you want to talk about er, Jabet Zofia and where the movie goes in the end? Is there anything in the first half that you want to talk about anymore? I mean, we haven't said the name Guy Pearce.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, yeah, well, we said Harrison Van Buren. I want to talk about Guy Pearce again. When we talk about whose movie is this, I guess we mentioned there were several other characters in this movie that to me are. They have less weight to carry and so they are more vivid. And I mean, Guy Pierce, like, steals this movie for a huge portion of it. And I do think there is something telling that the character and the portrait of the evil venal businessman or the interloper, the person getting in your way, is, to me, like, instantly indelible. And the. The saintly artist guy is kind of like. Well, we're like, feeling out how we feel about him. But, like, the movie knows who that. Who the guy Pierce is.

[Brian Curtis]

100 I wrote this the first time that it was that this is a very real thing when an extremely powerful person comes into your life and they can immediately seduce and if they want to destroy you because of what you're willing to give them, because you start imagining what they could create for you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

He. He. Courbet nailed something with that construction. And Found the right actor who had the right mix of charm and insidious underbelly, but also so funny. Like, you can't, like, you're supposed to laugh. It's supposed to be such a ridiculous, hilarious character.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And like, and I mean, just his booming American voice, which we know you know, is not his natural register. Also Joe Alwyn, like, the way those guys are hitting their Rs, you know, it's like, it is almost like a parody of Americans. That is perfect. Like, that is, that is how the Americans in this movie should be speaking, you know, So, I mean, I can't believe that guy Pierce is not going to win an Oscar. Like, he kind of walks away with the movie.

[Brian Curtis]

For me, I think a real pain not being nominated for best pictures throws a slight monkey wrench in there. However, I think that would mean Edward Norton would win. But the, That's a whole other conversation.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right? Yes. We've been doing a lot of complete unknown in my house.

[Brian Curtis]

Oh, interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But Nox just wants, he's just like a rolling stone. Please. Like two minutes in an hour and.

[Brian Curtis]

20 minutes into the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's sort of the whole point of the movie anyway. The other characters and the other performances. I mean. Are you ready? Should we talk about it?

[Brian Curtis]

Absolutely. I felt like you went in, though, looking for Kitty Oppenheimer and did you find her in the, in, in the performance by Phyllis D. Jones?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Not in the construction of the character.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

In the performance, I mean.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You didn't think it worked? Not at all.

[Brian Curtis]

People have been pretty split on this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I know Adam said, like, Adam had it right when it's just kind of. She's just sort of for my money, like, disastrously miscast. And you mentioned that an earlier version of this movie had a whole cast of actors who I think would have been wrong, except for Marion Cotillard as Erzebet. And that clicked the character the second half of the movie in just like.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, but she was already the star of the Immigrant, which is like such a close.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Adrien Brody was also already the star of the Pianist.

[Brian Curtis]

Very true.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What are you doing?

[Brian Curtis]

Very true. Good point.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Um, I, I, I, Felicity Jones seems like a wonderful person and has just, like, never really been the actor for me.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Um, and like, I, I think even when I heard the cast, I was like, really? Are we, Are we?

[Brian Curtis]

You know, before the re. Speecher controversy came out, you know, about the fixing, I had heard people, people had said to me, I don't, I have no idea if this is true or not. That her ability to learn Hungarian was, like, unmatched. People are like, I don't know how she did this because she's speaking in a language that is incredibly difficult to learn.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

And, you know, Brody, I guess, had the advantage of having a Hungarian mother, and, you know, his grandfather, and he at least had heard the language a lot and that she had not. And she just learned how to speak it in the movie. And people were like, what the fuck is. This is crazy how she pulled this off. But I do think that she has a little bit of the black licorice thing for some fans where you're just like, I don't buy her in movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Say something. And this is related to Reese Beecher. And I. I know I'm a proponent of the, like, you gotta sing to win the Oscar. And I think that's really true. Everyone talking about, like, learning lines of a different language, even a language as difficult to pronounce as Hungarian is the same as learning how to sing or, you know, I mean, they're memorized. Most of this is just written out, you know, in letters.

[Brian Curtis]

Look at you caping for Monica Barbaro just so blatantly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I am caping for Monica Barbara, like, so hard. But what are we talking? She learned Hungarian? No, she memorized lines. You know, like, she.

[Brian Curtis]

Are you sure she doesn't understand it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm not sure if she has a Has. Do we have any clips of her being.

[Brian Curtis]

Let's call her right now. What do you think? Can we say Amanda is so wrong in Hungarian?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Am I out of line here?

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no, I don't think you're out of line. I think it's. More people could probably learn the foreign language if you're reading it off of a letter than could just learn to sing out of nowhere. I think there is a more inherent talent that you're tapping into that is a little bit harder, but also, like, it's not just reading lines, right? Like, you have to understand the intent behind it to be able to put the right inflection and the right performance.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, Bobby, some of the line readings in both Hungarian and English I didn't really feel brought the craft that I have come to expect from the brutalist.

[Brian Curtis]

Many people agree with you. I'm with you. I never tripped on this at all. I don't. I really didn't feel like I was watching a performer who was out of her depth or didn't fit in the movie. And I don't know, maybe I just like her as an actor. I. It's One of those things where this is just pure subjectivity.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And maybe I don't like these characters either. Like these characters. I mean, this. And Amy Adams in the Master, which, you know, I'm a little bit with Adam in the one, like, two hand jobs, including one very angrily given by, like, a cross. Ex. Cross wife.

[Brian Curtis]

We all need a supplicant.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I see the influence, and I guess how wonderful it's not. That's great. I mean, that's great. You're right. Seeing movies is good. And liking movies.

[Brian Curtis]

Hand jobs. We've all been there. It happens, you know, it's part of life. It's a part of life.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But, I mean, don't look at me.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know why you look at the camera at me.

[Brian Curtis]

I'm just. We're just talking here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But I. I don't know what was I really supposed to get from that character? And, like, I. I just. I'm. You know, she's got her own career and she deals with losing her life, like, in it. You know, like, not her actual life, but her job and her family and everything in a very different way.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And she takes just, you know, she's writing like a women's column, and. Because that's the only journalism job she can get in America, and she wants to go back to Israel to be a grandmother. I guess there are different ways of dealing with trauma, and that's what is being illustrated.

[Brian Curtis]

I think that that's probably just a representation of the way that America viewed women and that it's not this, you know, evolved, sophisticated land of equality, that a woman who would be as well educated as she is at Oxford, who has a more sophisticated job in her native country, comes here like so many immigrants who come here and are asked to do less than what they are capable of in order to make a living. That's what that stands for. I think in the movie, they're meant to be a team. And you see the way that she charms Van Buren and almost navigates that relationship on his behalf because he doesn't have those tools. And you could see a world in Hungary where she did that for him. And that's something that you see a lot of great artists have.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The producer wife or the producer partner. Sure. Yeah. And it's a very common thing, including on this movie.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes. And Brady Courbet's partner, who is also a filmmaker, who knows who is who in these relationships. But I don't know. I watched that and I was like, this actually is how it is. Anytime I Meet like a power couple. One person has one job and the other person has the other job. And that was how I understood the character. Now we get less time with her because she only comes in in the second half of the movie. So if we're concerned about developing Lazlo, she's even less developed. I mean, we don't really know anything about her other than what she shares to Van Buren. So it's never going to be as deep a character if you don't like the performance. I can't argue that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I don't like it. And I think it's just so uneven in terms of the presence that, like, if you buy him as much as I buy Brody as Toth, and you don't buy her, then the entire concept of the characters and whatever equality or power couple, like, we're a team, that is meant to be communicated, just kind of. It doesn't happen.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay, so I wrote about this on letterboxd.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, good.

[Brian Curtis]

I'm gonna tell you about it right now. I guess you have not seen it, then. You haven't been keeping track. Zofia.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Who is the niece.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

Who is the daughter of. Is it Lazlo's sister? Yes, Lazlo's sister. And sounds as though she has died. And so she is then paired in Dachau with Felicity Jones character, and she is mute for the entirety of the film. Until the end.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, until she's pregnant and is like, I'm going to.

[Brian Curtis]

Until she goes to Israel. She's the first character we see. She's portrayed by Raffi Kasad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Who was also in Vox Lux, who was also in White Noise.

[Amanda Dobbins]

First and last.

[Brian Curtis]

First and last person that we see in this film. I obviously noticed that the first time I saw the movie. Well, not really. Honestly, I probably didn't think hard enough about it, but it occurred to me, and I think this is the intention, is that this is a movie that is told from her perspective and that the reason the movie ends the way that it does and she has the last word and she is the one who interprets the work of the artist, is it's a literary device, the way that you might have a connected family member telling the tale of a great member or couple in a family. And I don't know why that didn't occur to me the first time, but it completely alters my perspective on the film because she is a person who moves to Israel and who is a Zionist and who sees opportunity to communicate her politics and her faith through these works. Of art and this life story. And that doesn't mean that that is what the movie is about. It means it's something that people do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

And it's something that people use art to do the same way that Harrison Van Buren uses art to do. To make a gymnasium and the city forces him to make a church. And so it's all of these influences that are. That encroach upon what an artist wants to do. Now, again, that. That only flatters. The thing that you're saying is kind of annoying, which is that this is like a. A perfect portrait of an artist. But maybe it also complicates it because maybe Jophia is. Is creating an act to honor her uncle, who she sees as such an important person in the story of art and her faith. So there's a reason he's not flawed. Also, the other thing, too, is that she has met every main character in this movie, which I find interesting. Like, when she comes into the film, like, everything she's communicating, it's like, it can be rationalized. It can be logic.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I don't think your interpretation is wrong, and I think it is probably right. I mean, it is undeniable that the first shot is of her in a room somewhere in Hungary, we assume, seemingly as rare. Right. And not only does the epilogue close with her, but they flash back to that exact room. So you're meant to go back to it. I think that the way the character is handled in the intervening three hours just does not communicate that device and perspective effectively enough for me to. For it to land.

[Brian Curtis]

And that may not be the intention. It's just my reading.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you don't watch it the first time. And because it. I mean, it just. There's. There's so much in between that you. And it happens so quickly. You don't.

[Brian Curtis]

It's just so much movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Like. And it doesn't land. And to go back the second time, if you're looking for it, you can kind of piece it together. But there, like, I don't know if that is fully developed, to be quite honest, which is sort of. Which is my larger issue with the ending, which is like, cool ideas that I don't. That I think are kind of, like, tacked on almost in, like a super. Well, okay, so I mean, let's talk about the ending. That is. That's more about the epilogue. You know, like I wrote in here. Where does this movie turn for you? And, like, maybe it doesn't turn for you. I had a couple instances Where I was like, huh, this is interesting. The first is when Felicity Jones shows up. And, you know, and there is, like, that delineation from part one and part two. And I think part one is, like, pretty unassailable. Part two, Felicity Jones shows up, and I'm like, well, this is interesting. And I. You know, I wonder if this is how this.

[Sean Fennessey]

You.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You really meant for this to go, but I'm. I'm gonna keep going on with it. And then there's the. The Carrera trip, which. That was tough because as soon as they do that shot of the quarry and Cara, I was like, this is the best thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Mr. Marble dude is my number one film character of 2024.

[Brian Curtis]

The Italian anarchist.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Shout out to him and gives, like, an incredible speech. About the only time he's left the quarry is to, like, go beat Mussolini's body with his dead hands. And he's got, like, that immaculate sweater and the hair.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And you know, when he shows up late and he's like, I will go take a coffee and then we'll go. I mean, listen, Guy Pierce rolls his eyes, like, incredible. Loved it.

[Brian Curtis]

Would you give a. Give up a few fingers to have that guy swag?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah. Because that's. He earned it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

May I also, like, age as well as he does.

[Brian Curtis]

You know, the locks are beautiful.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. He's doing great. And. And then they're partying and, you know.

[Brian Curtis]

This is all part of the plan, though, right? Like, he draws you in. He's like, I'm gonna give you the beautiful imagery, and then. Okay, so I'm gonna hit you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. And so. And so then Van Buren rapes Lazlot. And here was my reaction sitting in the theater. As soon as I heard the pants unbuckling, I was just like, oh, no. Like, don't. But not in. Like, I want to protect this character. Like, this is. He's been through too much. You know, this is, like, a horrible thing to witness.

[Brian Curtis]

Too bold and obvious a story.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was just like, what the fuck? Like, what are you guys doing? And I Watching it a second time. Like, I've obviously thought a lot about it, and the way that sex is used in the movie is notable and clearly trying to set that up, or at least, like, the exploration of, like, sex is power. Did you know? You know, which then gets really, really literalized. Like, we need another word beyond literalized for the. I. I guess met Adam Neyman's Meta 5 was. Is very good. And I like, I. So I do understand, at least structurally, what they're trying to do in terms of the sexual dynamics between each character in the film is explored, including Zofia and. And Harry, AKA Joe Alwyn, who just. I mean, hats off to that guy for just being the worst man in every movie that he takes on. He does it willingly and then he's just like cinema.

[Brian Curtis]

It's almost like filmmakers saw him in his real life and thought, is this the worst man in the world?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wasn't his fault.

[Brian Curtis]

Let's put it to the test.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, he got dumped for. What's his name? What's that guy?

[Joanna Robinson]

Matty Healy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, Matty Healy. So that's not his fault. Okay, listen, you know, he's. Now she's dating Travis Kelce and we got to do that whole super bowl thing again, whatever. Not his fault. But. So everybody has a weird, awkward, memorable sex scene that is meant to communicate something about where they are in life and how they are. Their bodies are. Are being used or violated, you know, like. Like, I get it. I felt throughout that the sex scenes were, like, a little bit more shock value than character development. Like, they were always just like, way weirder than they needed to be, you know, which, sure, you can go for.

[Brian Curtis]

It, but that's my tempo. What can I say, you know?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, it's just kind of like sex.

[Brian Curtis]

Can be a very weird thing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, sex is weird, but it's like at some point I was like, okay, you guys are really trying to let me know that there's, like, some weird sex stuff going on here.

[Brian Curtis]

Well, okay, So I definitely had the same thought.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

In the first hand job, I was like, interesting. That is the base of. Of this man's dick. Like, they're just like. They're just gonna show. This is that kind of a movie. Like, very early on, it's like, this is a European film. This is not an American movie. Like, we're going to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The hand job's fine. The first hand job. I was like, okay, that's not.

[Brian Curtis]

It's not something you would see most American movie stars do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally.

[Brian Curtis]

What happens in that sequence.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally.

[Brian Curtis]

And so I think it's trying to say to you, like, strap in. This isn't. This is not a Robert Zemeckis movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

You know what I mean?

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I'm talking more about, like, his, you know, the old timey porno that he goes to see in the middle. And I was like, okay, cool.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, I think. Yeah. To me, I mean, you could probably.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Be like the secondhand job. Whereas, like, all Right. All right. I, too, like the films of PTA and the Zofia. I guess that one. That one's okay. That's just like. That's relatively subtle.

[Brian Curtis]

They don't show it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They don't show anything.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's communicated pretty clearly that there's something kind of forcible in awkward going on with Harry.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, I guess in the way that this movie is, like, doing it all, all of the time. It's. It's really doing of it, doing it all. But anyway, so tonally, or I guess in terms of we are going to make explicit the explicit. I guess the rape makes sense.

[Brian Curtis]

It's just not a subtle movie. And it's not a subtle gesture to have the evil capitalist patron rape the artist.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

That is the most you could literalize it to your point. One of the core ideas of the movie, and he chooses to do so. The case that I would make.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Is that many of the films that we consider great films and many of the reasons why we remember these great films tend to do these things. They tend to have very big, clearly communicated gestures. These are not subtle, ambiguous, quiet films. They're films about desperation and confusion and violence. And so when you go down the list of movies that are clearly influences on this movie, and when you go down the list of, like, the epic, which is what this movie is in the tradition of. They all have this shit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't. I don't disagree, but I. And so, like, structurally, it is in keeping with the rest of the film. I don't know. Like, my reaction in the moment and my reaction walking out was like, well, okay. You know. And that's. That's where it turned. And then it. It moves very quickly and suddenly.

[Brian Curtis]

Now, this is where I bumped.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

And still bump.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Is heroin to the dinner scene.

[Brian Curtis]

The dinner scene.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The dinner scene sucks.

[Brian Curtis]

This is the weakest part of the film.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I don't know, I. I think that, like, the resolution of the dinner scene and like, Harrison Van Buren's ambiguous, but, like, I think that's pretty clear death.

[Brian Curtis]

I think that's why that scene happens. It happens because you need to get to that. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And that does make sense. But, like, why is she just, like, even. Even her dialogue. And again, maybe it's the performance. She's like, you are an evil rapist in that weird accent. And I was like, well, let me tell you, Felicity Jones is not built for this.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And it's. I.

[Brian Curtis]

It is the weakest part of a movie that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

To.

[Brian Curtis]

That Point has made bold moves that I've been like, wow, I can't believe they did that. But the whole time I was there, I was in it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

I was not distracted at all. And then when that scene happened, I was like, gosh, I hope this isn't the last scene in the movie because this would be a terrible way to end this movie that I'm loving. I see it as, like, it's cement in the construction. And there needed to be an event that would traumatize Harrison, that would reveal him and traumatize him. And this is the best that they could come up with.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but it's like, the plot mechanics are, like, really showing. And it's showing both narratively and in execution. I mean, at least the Felicity Jones of it. Once, like, Joe Alwyn is going upstairs and the camera's following him and they're searching for him.

[Brian Curtis]

And even great wonder there, by the way, when they're following him up the stairs.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's really great.

[Brian Curtis]

The technical stuff in this movie is crazy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And his performance and, like, the suggestion that it's not unfamiliar behavior.

[Brian Curtis]

He knows. Yeah, they know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, that they know. But, like. But again, that is just. It's a suggestion the movie communicates without being, like, beat the drum. Literal. You know, that sometimes subtlety actually does work for me, even in a movie like the Brutalist. So it doesn't work. And that kind of pretty quickly after the. The rape, you're kind of like, all right, this. These plot points are, like, rolling up pretty quickly, and things are getting dire and also obvious. And in. You know, and in the middle, they shoot up and she almost dies. And that's bad. I'm glad she didn't die. You know? But it's also like, okay, we've Now. We've just added an overdose into this. Like, okay, all right. Shit's bad.

[Brian Curtis]

I mean, people have pain, and they're trying to. They're trying to handle their pain, you know?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Me, too.

[Brian Curtis]

I have a severe hip flexor strain. I'm taking a lot of Advil. You know, I'm doing my best. This is life.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I threw my neck out the other night.

[Brian Curtis]

This is 40.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was like. I was like, oh, God, I'm never gonna be able to walk again.

[Brian Curtis]

I know exactly how you feel.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it's okay. I got a new pillow and a heating pad, and we're back in business.

[Brian Curtis]

I'm very happy for you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So. So that all happens. And I'm so. I'm just trying to, like, my mind speed up.

[Brian Curtis]

The epilogue Here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. So. But. So I would say that the last 30 minutes. And when I rewatched it, I was kind of like watching the clock. And it's the last 30 were. You know, except for the epilogue. Last 30 minutes. And it's just. It's making really big strokes, really fast.

[Brian Curtis]

Mm. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then the epilogue. Okay, so first of all, the epilogue is at the Venice Bienniales, so A plus. I. I was like, oh, I know where in Venice you are. Love Venice.

[Brian Curtis]

I thought as I was watching the movie, there's no way Amanda can hate this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Can. And also I. I was joking about you performing the disco, but. But that shit rules. That's really funny and good. I have a real soft spot for Italian disco.

[Brian Curtis]

So all the variations on the score throughout the film are really smart.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The score is magnificent. The score is, like, incredible. So Venice. That's cool. You know, I like. It's great. And then out comes Zofia, who you don't totally understand is Zofia right away, because Raffy Cassidy is recast as her daughter.

[Brian Curtis]

It's played by Ariane Labet.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. And so it's. She is giving the speech and you're trying to figure out in, like, real time what is going on, which is very cool. But. And I like that aspect of it. And in many ways is the opposite of just like the last 30 minutes of yelling at you. Of like, okay, and now there's a rape, and now there's an overdose, and now there's a suicide, and now everyone's yelling. But it is revealed that the. Well, that Toth is being honored at the Israeli Pavilion, which seems to indicate that he did eventually follow, er, Jebet to Israel, even though she's not there. It's 1980, so some time has passed. She was not in good health. He has been designing buildings, which we see via some sketches now, infamous. You also see their locations. So they're almost all built in the United states in the 70s.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes. And a lot in Connecticut.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. And the. Which is where the. Attila's wife is from, who we didn't talk about at all. I liked them. I mean, I didn't like them as people, but those were some great scenes.

[Brian Curtis]

The first half of the movie is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And another. And a lot of sexual stuff going on there.

[Brian Curtis]

But it's a huge theme of the movie. Yes, but the insane, weird desire of artistic people. And the way that when we get close to artistic people, we get more turned on because they can access something.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We can slide and danced around as opposed to, you know, Fully hit over your head.

[Brian Curtis]

True, but the same way that there's something that makes us hate ourselves for how attracted we are to certain things. And that's what that whole scene is about, where she's hot for him, but she can't help make fun of his nose and she can't help lie about him making a pass. And the same is true for Harrison and his relationship with Lazlo. Like, this is good stuff in the movie. I like that stuff.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, of course. But, like, you understand my point.

[Brian Curtis]

I do, yeah. These people want to fuck. What do we. What's the problem here?

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's great. Everybody wants to fuck. That's cool. Listen, all I want are movies where it's like two people want to fuck. But even in that, I tend to prefer the ones where they like, they fuck immediately after the movie ends, as opposed to. I like the foreplay is I guess what you could say. Okay, so. And they finished the community center. We know that in the epilogue.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Because it's shown in a drawing that may or may not have been drawn by AI.

[Brian Curtis]

The only things that were completed were sketched by AI are in the video that is behind him or behind her while she's giving the speech. Apparently, everything that we see while they're walking through the hallway was drawn by artists.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's good, that's good. Okay. And then she starts into her. Her speech, her tribute to her uncle. Adopted father, more or less. And. And you are right that it is. It is very pointed and political. And whether or not she is infusing her own interpretations or whether it is just the intent of the thing is unclear.

[Brian Curtis]

It is deeply ambiguous what the intention is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But she reveals in her telling of it, which, when you're watching it for the first time, you're just kind of like, okay, so I guess this is what happened. Especially after 30 minutes of just rapid plot being thrown at you. And it's like, okay, well, this was actually all designed as a tribute and a recreation of his time at the concentration camp. And then she's like, he did it. Ta da. It's the destination, not the journey. And then one of the greatest song cues of all time. One for One for you, One for.

[Brian Curtis]

Me by La Bionda. The Italian disco.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. Speaking of Italian disco, So I walked out of the movie because it was very late. I think I made what can only be described as an Amanda emoji. As I walked out, just to myself, I was just like, okay, gotta go find my car.

[Brian Curtis]

It's not a good movie to have no One to talk about with afterwards.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like, all right. I think in the moment, I found the treatment of the Holocaust tribute as, like, a reveal to be in poor taste.

[Brian Curtis]

The first time I saw it, I thought it was genius, but I was like, oh, they treated this like a reveal.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

I've come to understand it totally differently.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And. But, you know, I. Most people will. Will see this movie once, so 100%. So it's important.

[Brian Curtis]

When I talked to Adam about it, he was like, the artist is a smuggler. We love that idea. He smuggled in all these ideas, which he may have. But Lazlo does not talk during the epilogue. In fact, he's in a wheelchair. And it appears as though he's infirmed in some way and maybe unable to communicate, which would allow Zofia to speak on his behalf with her own intent.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And that's all fine, but it's in the span of about five minutes at the end of a three and a half hour movie. And then it hits to one for them, one for you, one for me. Which, like, maybe that's from the perspective of Zofia, but I, like, don't think so.

[Brian Curtis]

No, I think it's from the perspective of Brady Courbet flipping his fingers off at the people who pay for movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. But I.

[Brian Curtis]

And that old canard about what directors do and what actors do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure, but you also just have to connect it to the discussion of the art that came immediately before it.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the. And the artist as smuggler. And this is this project that he was, you know, laboring for so long and also, you know, had to build a church in the middle of was actually like a reconstruction of his paint. And also his love for his wife, which, like, okay, certainly some gilding of the lily there. Right. So my. My instant reaction was like, I. I think that's in poor taste. Like, much in the way that, like, you know, 911 shows up in vox lux along with everything else. And I'm like, okay, sure, if you want like that. That. Just that grab bag of let's. Let's use the greatest horrors in history.

[Brian Curtis]

I mean, you gotta remember, for my own narrative. Well, but it's like this guy starred in the American remake of Funny Games. You know what I mean? Like this, though, like, the cinema of confrontation, of transgression is obviously something he loves. And he's doing it over and over again. Again.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Brian Curtis]

He's trying to upset you. He's trying to make you go like, ugh, you. They just raped him. You know, like, he's that's the intent.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but I don't go, ugh. Like, I'm not like, wow, how transgressive. Or, like, gross. How dare you?

[Brian Curtis]

Or the world is gross. Whatever. Your takeaway is like, I think.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, my takeaway is like, come on. Like, like Mr. Highfalutin. You're, like, trying to do, like, one of these great things and like, like, no, you didn't nail that. Sorry. I, like, respectfully, you're. Your, Your britches are too big for whatever's going on with you. And that's, you know, maybe that can lead us to, like, the final thing of. Does it. Does the movie have to stick the lid? Well, I don't know. Let's talk about the ending a little bit more.

[Brian Curtis]

Do you see it in any particular way? Yeah, the epilogue in particular. I mean, that is the thing that. For people who have seen the movie more than once, for Oscar voters, I guess, you know, like, the movie is. It's not been widely seen yet. You know, it's. I think it's only in, like 800 theaters or something. It's done actually really good business. But this is never gonna be a movie that, as you say, people, like, millions of people will see five times.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

For a variety of reasons, but it's incumbent on us, when you get a big.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

To see juicy piece of steak, to, like, dig in.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I think. I think I understand it a little bit more the second time around. And now that you've had the warning of. Because once you. Once you see it the second time and you're reminded. Oh, right, it starts with Zofia. It starts with. And I think the last sentence of that scene is, we wanna make sure we get you to your proper home or something that is about, like, your home in, like, a very sinister way. And so this idea of what is home and can there be a home for anyone? And all of these things becomes resonant and is resonant. In the epilogue, her character is more or less abandoned until two hours in, she gives one speech about Jerusalem. And I just. I still. I still think, like, my first viewing of it. And just being like, okay, is. Is gonna be how a lot of people feel. And like, it has to be because you only get one shot with someone with a three and a half hour movie. And I also. Even if it is about her and she's. She's the narrator, but, like, okay, so what does that mean? Like, how does that. What does that change for you?

[Brian Curtis]

It means that no matter what an artist does, people will always Use what they do to their own ends. Like that, I think is a huge part of the intention of that entire experience. And that there is all as much pomp and circumstance as necessary before a project begins, as much as is necessary after it ends. That, like, to be in the world of arts, especially at this high level, you are constantly being evaluated and reevaluated and used. And that might be fucking break.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, honestly, you know, I have no patience for, like, as a. As a long project of art. I'm like, I'm sure that that's true. Like, that's tough, you know, you also got to make the movies. Sure.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, he has been.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is the movie good enough that he.

[Brian Curtis]

Has been very circumspect about whatever happened on Vox Lux. It's obvious they wrote this in the immediate aftermath of that movie being released. I don't know if he didn't get final cut. I don't know if they made him change a lot of things. It clearly pissed both of them off, him and his partner, Mona. And so this being the thing that they threw themselves into. The only reason that, like, you're being, like, come on. And being frustrated by it is cause it's like, this movie might win Best Picture, like, if this was just an independent movie and a 24 didn't buy it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I don't think that's true. First of all, because I saw Vox Lux. And second of all, well, maybe it.

[Brian Curtis]

Wasn'T the movie he wanted you to see.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And second of all, because it asks for three and a half hours of my time, and it does want me to think about it. And so there we go. So that's the thing. It gets me asking all of these questions. I'm engaged in it. It's obviously an achievement on so many levels. Performance craft, like, ideas, the. Just the. The conversation around it, which. And I. And I don't mean the brutal boys. I mean, like, people who have seen the movie wanting to talk about it and me wanting. Have been, like, waiting for two weeks to talk to you about it. I. Is it still is. Is something that is so ambitious, still great if it can't land its own plane and you think it lands its plane.

[Brian Curtis]

I'll give you the dumbest answer I can give you. Yeah, I gave this movie four and a half stars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. I.

[Brian Curtis]

That's the. That's the dumbest way to answer it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like, at some point, I just, like, am mad at all of you for being on your, you know, on your, like, wavelength. Of conversation.

[Brian Curtis]

But I. And I understand that. But the truth is that I think that this is a movie that has flaws, but relative to the movie year that we just had, it's a movie that exceeds others in my view, despite those flaws.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

And I do. That's how I've always thought about things.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally.

[Brian Curtis]

It might be sports brained and stupid, but I grew up reading Roger Ebert and I was trained to think in certain systems. And the same way that the Oscar race is foolish and all art is subjective, a movie like this, very few movies allow for the possibility of conversations like this on the show.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally.

[Brian Curtis]

To me, that's like a massive achievement. Am I grading movies against my very own particular personal experiences? Yes. So is every personal life.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, Everyone, all of the time. And we. And we should all be more explicit about that.

[Brian Curtis]

So to answer your question, can this movie be great even if it's not fully great? Not 100% great? Yes. Because no movie is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. I mean, so I agree with that. I have been thinking a lot about, like, if. If I had seen it and if I had done a proper top five list, where would it sit? Yeah, where would it sit?

[Brian Curtis]

And Chris put it at four.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, and would it sit? Because I agree with everything you're saying and in the context of this show and being able to talk about things, God bless them, amazing stuff. And also, it's very good. And it's definitely one of the better movies that I saw for the calendar year 2024. I do think that there is something embedded in it that is about greatness and certainty to bring in another best picture contender. And, you know, it's like, if you're gonna go for it, like, then you set the standard high. Like, you have to go for it.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay, think about it like this. This is helpful, I think. Was Challengers number one for you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, Anora was.

[Brian Curtis]

Anora was. Sorry, it was Challengers two.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay, so Challengers was three for me, and Challengers for both of us was a joy machine. That does not mean it's a flawless movie. But you would put Challengers over the Brutalist in part because you think about what the movie's trying to do. Is this fair to say?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

Versus what it accomplishes? And so the Brutalist is reaching for something that maybe it cannot achieve, but it is reaching. Whereas Challengers, which is great.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Its ambitions are lower. They're still way above most of what we do here, but it is lower.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is the.

[Brian Curtis]

And so how we grade these things, how we. How we canonize them, or not is so complicated, because that intention that I keep circling back to people are like, don't talk about the intention. What is the movie? Look at the text. I don't live in that world. I'm never gonna live in that world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I'm also using the intention, but I think the self reflection in the movie and the self referential nature of it and the intention, and maybe it's a little bit like, you know, I read the character of Lazlo Loth, like, slightly differently.

[Brian Curtis]

I tried to. You didn't hear this, but I tried to get Courbet, and he did kind of associate himself with Van Buren, too, to say, like, how much of you. I think I asked him specifically how much of you is in Van Buren, because Van Buren's incredibly charming and an autodidact and a bit of a weird guy. I think Brady is incredibly charming and a bit of an autodidact and a little weird.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right, right, right.

[Brian Curtis]

And I say that with affection, but, you know, to write a character like that, you gotta be able to channel it. So if you think of the movie in this more multifarious way, where it's like, sure, he's Lazlo, absolutely. But is he also not Erzebet? Is he. When he is being the supplicant to his wife when she's directing her movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm talking about, like, who he is in the movie. Like, the movie as, like, its belief in, like, an artist, you know, and like, the artist as the holy. You don't.

[Brian Curtis]

You don't love that. You don't. You don't love that. Never loved that since I've known you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And. And as I said, when we're talking about it, like, for me, it's not the artist. It is the art. It is the final product. It is like, did you nail it? And a fascinating thing about this movie is that, like, Laszlo did, but because of the budget of the film, you know, like, they can't build it. We can't see it, you know.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah. A $20 million building. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. So I think it's that strain and that argument of the movie that keeps me from. That I disagree with, like, in the text of the movie. And that also, like, kind of holds me back of being like, well, but, you know, it really. It turned. Like, it just.

[Brian Curtis]

It did.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It did.

[Brian Curtis]

Let me ask you a question that I've thought about a few times. Do you think a lot of the details of this kind of discussion will fall away and this film will go into the canon?

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's a great question.

[Brian Curtis]

And does it matter if it wins Best Picture or not? If it loses Best Picture, is it more likely to go into the canon, whatever that. However loosely you define that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, who's canon? Yeah, you know, I mean, I can't totally answer that, but, like, it's like our canon or like the way that we remember 100, you know, the intersection of both.

[Brian Curtis]

You know, the way that we remember Chinatown, you know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

I'm not saying it's as good as Chinatown, but just the way we remember another movie that I would say has flaws. Perfect script, great performances, has flaws, in my opinion.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, listen, I didn't. I know that you're just preemptively yelling at people on the Internet who want to.

[Brian Curtis]

I know. I gotta stop doing that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know. But that's fine. You're always allowed to find flaws in things on my watch.

[Brian Curtis]

It's been so easy for us to say the Social Network masterpiece because it lost Best Picture to the King Speech. And so not only is it the synthesis of all these things we love, it's also, weirdly, an underdog now, relative to the way that movie history is codified by awards.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess so, though, I think the thing that has made the Social Network great is that, I mean, it's less that it lost Best Picture and more that Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook continue to be Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook.

[Brian Curtis]

That has helped. That has helped. I think it's both. But anyway, ultimately, what do you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is a long movie that's hard to see in the intended format, and I think that it might just not. Even if it wins Best Picture, I don't think it will be seen as widely as many of the other movies that you just mentioned. So I don't know. In a film nerd canon, I think it's probably like in, you know, in the new film nerd canon, it's probably already there.

[Brian Curtis]

I think that's the thing is, yeah, we think canons are made by the old, but they're really made by the young.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

And young people, by and large, that I've heard from love this movie in part because it's the first movie of its kind that they've gotten since they've been alive, since they've been interested in movies, because movies like this don't come around very often. They can also acknowledge that it has flaws. They're not saying it's perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I just hear from a lot of listeners of the show who are under 25, under 30, and they're like brutal boys, let's go assemble. Let's do this. You know, and God bless them. They care about movies and they want to see something. They want to see somebody try to make something great. And so because of that, I think, I mean, we watched this this year specifically with Interstellar. Interstellar having a 10 year anniversary, getting re released, doing great business at the movie theater with the re release. You know, that's a movie that you and I, we were like a little older when it came out and little more skeptical of, but if you were 18 when it came out, or 10, or even 25, you'd have a totally different relationship to it. And so my gut is that it will be.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think so too, especially if it.

[Brian Curtis]

Loses to Amelia Perez.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, we have to talk about Nosferatu, but then we'll come back to whether it's gonna lose to Emilia Perez.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I quickly add something about what I think the movie is doing? And like, we're focusing a lot on the artist patron dynamic because of the form format of it being cinema. And like, we know, and Brady's talking about that a lot. So that is like, unavoidable to characterize the discussion. But I also think, like, part of it, him and Mona, like the script itself, just textually speaking, like, they're interested in that being the lens with which this just unravels what America is like. You guys didn't even talk about a lot of like the B roll that they were using about Pennsylvania. Like, Pennsylvania is America. It's like urban, it's suburban, it's agricultural, it is the state that I think the lore around it most accurately represents what like the American dream would to be sold to an immigrant coming particularly, who was in the hot, like, escaping the Holocaust in Buchenwald, like one of the camps that America did liberate eventually. And so, like, I do think that a lot of the stuff that we're talking about, like Laszlo has to kind of be a cipher. And I agree with you, Amanda, that I actually was hoping to like occupy his mind a little more by the end of the movie. But I also think that that's kind of the point. Like what he says early on in the movie, like, the materials are supposed to show themselves. Like that is the philosophy behind brutalism. Like, cement is great. I don't care if you can see it. It is great for building buildings. And Lazlo actually says that. And so I think he ends up being a little bit kind of like a mirror for America, who, like Van Buren is Just America rolled into one character. He's all of the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything in between the repression, especially because the relationship with his mom. It's sort of implied that there's something sexually repressive going on in that. And I think that, like, we get caught up in this dynamic because it's like, okay, this is a movie and we can kind of think about the fact that there's an artist being represented in the movie as like a metatextual version of the movie itself. But also like, I think that they were swinging at something so huge and that's what I really loved about it. And that's what. Sean, what you're alluding to is like, we don't get a lot of movies that are actually trying to like, take down the totality of what America is. And that first lasting image of, of the Statue of Liberty. I do think that that is sort of setting the expectation, like, I'm going to flip America on its head by the end of this movie.

[Brian Curtis]

I think you're. I think you're. It's a totally accurate and insightful reading. I think if you're ungenerous to the movie and you think that the artist is self interested primarily in the creation of the movie, that the idea of America and American capitalism as this like all consuming and destroying force is used in the same way that the Holocaust and Jewish identity is used, which is as a vector for a personal feeling. And if you are ungenerous, that's what you would say.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Form follows function.

[Brian Curtis]

It certainly does. And you know, Anora, a much smaller movie in scale in some ways is about the same thing that you're describing. It's about the relationship between labor and wealth. It's about the relationship between sex and power. They're the same movie in so many ways. And there is like these transgressions against this character that we love who isn't innocent and perfect, but also flawed. And how flawed? And are they flawed enough? I don't know. We can debate that. But that mode of a story, I. I will slightly disagree with you that that idea comes across a lot in independent cinema. The idea that we are being crushed by the system that we are forced to live under is quite common. The way that it's communicated in this movie is not common. It's hard to do and complicated. And it's also being suffused with all these other ideas that we're talking about, about integrating into the American idea. I do. I totally agree with you about all the archival and the using Pennsylvania. And I think I rattled off the list of famous Pennsylvanians to Adam when we did the podcast. And it's just like the perfect snapshot of how great and terrible America is simultaneously. Again, though, like, the movie stands up to all this. Like, it is a useful magnifying glass for everything that we've said. What a joy. What a great thing to happen for movies that we can have movies like this. And it's not easy to pull it off. You know, I think there's also some, like, legitimate conversation to be had about the $10 million budget and that only being accomplished because nobody got paid on the movie. Which is like, sounds like a really noble thing until you start thinking about everybody who is not Adrien Brody and Guy Pearce who didn't get paid on the movie. And I have some questions about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And also given the text of the movie and who makes money off of art.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes. And you could say, what was the long range idea? That if you make this movie great enough that it'll draw attention to how valuable these movies are and then people will get paid more on the next movie. But that's an insidious thing that is in the world, the arc of art too. Like, is there any ethical way to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Build anything in America at all or to do anything under capitalism, under the dream that we're being sold? And I think the answer is probably no.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, the answer is no. I, I think I'm a little bit less intoxicated with that specific idea because I'm like, I made up my mind on that idea. Same, you know, like I, I'm just like, it's bad, it's not going to get better. It certainly wasn't any good in 1947. And so it's. Maybe it's a little less chewy to me personally, even though I think you're 100% right in seeing it that way.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I mean, I think that there's some like, self examination going on with that too, because Brody is America or Brady is American. You know what I mean? Like, there is some sort of like inner repression of what it means to also have come up in this and lived in this. That is being explored too. I think your point about him being parts of both characters or split between all the different characters, I think is a valid one. And I think sometimes can explain why maybe parts of Lazlo feel a little flat because, like, you know, the part of yourself that you think of as the artist, it might be that that's just one dimension of you, how much.

[Brian Curtis]

Of Laszlo is Mona.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know, European.

[Brian Curtis]

Absolutely true. They got that in common. Very good movie. I'm glad that you did not come in here and just, like, piss on it and say, what a stupid asshole who made this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm not. Jesus Christ. I mean, listen, I know good content. And I also. I'm a smart person with a brain.

[Brian Curtis]

I never accused you of being otherwise. Nosferatu.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

I'm very. I'm very proud of you for going to see this film in the cinema.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I kind of.

[Brian Curtis]

The inverse of the conversation we just had.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I tried to get you to take this off the episode. Like, that was. That was my. And not.

[Brian Curtis]

And then I just want to hear you talk about it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, well, here we go. So I did listen to your conversation with Chris and Rob. Rob, my mortal enemy, who's also a wonderful big picture guest. Great every single time. I love you and hate you, Rob. And I think I netted out where all of you and you, Bobby, all netted out, which is, like, you know, incredible to look at. It is very hard to make a movie that specific and detailed and beautiful and there. But it is craft. It's almost. It's an exercise rather than, like, an emotional connection. You guys like vampires, so not even you like. I mean, you do like them, but they hold your attention. Whereas I was listening to another episode you did recently. I was listening to the you and Chris half of Dump Youary.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And Chris tried to engage you, Sean, in a conversation about Chris Abbott's, like, car hurts and his wardrobe evolution in the film Wolfman. And you just, like. You just, like, straight up liked him. You were like, I don't care about that. That's, like, not interesting to me in a movie that is interesting to me, but, like, vampires and rats, like, at some point, you just, like, straight can't hold my attention.

[Brian Curtis]

Y.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And at some point, that is what happened to me with Nosferatu. I wasn't even scared sometimes. I was like, wow, look at that camera going up that staircase. That's very beautiful. And look at, you know, Lily Rose Depp with her tongue and her cheekbones. I thought a lot about her cheekbones. And they are Johnny Depp's cheekbones, which is a little unfortunate, but she wears them well, so. But that is, like, where my mind was going, because there was. I did not really feel an emotional core.

[Brian Curtis]

You're thinking the technical exercise aspect of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It at the center of the film.

[Brian Curtis]

Well, Bob, in the notes you shared, I think a word that is useful in talking about it. How did you describe it?

[Joanna Robinson]

Airtight. It is so considered. And I think that this is Robert Eggers style of filmmaking. And I think clearly a lot of people respond to it, and it's undeniable how amazing the craft is and how amazing it looked and how there's, like, maybe three people that can pull it off in this way. But I think it loses what I think the three of us love about a lot of movies, which is, like that little piece of magic that you're not really sure what's gonna come next.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, the other word you used, Bobby, is sterile, which I thought was also very accurate. And I think kind of speaks to why I just. I couldn't stay focused.

[Brian Curtis]

I got pretty involved in the second half in the Lily Rose Depp performance, which I don't know if I did enough of a good job talking about. That's the one thing that kind of moved beyond, I guess, the sort of schematic aspect of the movie. Because it is a remake. We do know the story. Even if you've not seen the Murnau film, like, you get. You get the idea, you know. And so it's not that surprising, I think, getting interested in her, not just the convulsions, but feeling like a little bit more connected to that character and understanding how she was feeling and the way that she sacrifices herself. And then that final sequence, which is so amazing and so painterly, but for, like, long stretches of the movie, I felt similarly. I felt like it's elegant and certainly considered. And I have had people explain it to me this way. I don't know what you dreamt of when you were nine that was, like, your ambition, but this is what this filmmaker dreamt of. He dreamt of being able to make his Nosferatu. This was the thing that drew him to art and theater and film. And sometimes the thing that is like your first thing, you don't. Maybe you shouldn't realize it. You know, maybe it's not. It's hard to break form from where you were when you were that young and you were thinking about it. I don't know if that's true for him or not. And the truth is, is that the public doesn't care because this movie's huge. Like, I'm personally stunned. As a long, long time Eggers fan who is in fully since the Witch, I, in my wildest dreams, would I have guessed that this is like a $200 million movie or $250 million movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I. You know, I do think people like vampires. And if you just want to go see some weird shit beautifully rendered on a. On a screen which. Which a lot of people do. And also, like, I'm not knocking that. That's. That's great and it is really well done. It just does not hold my personal attention.

[Brian Curtis]

I think that's legit. I think that's totally fair.

[Joanna Robinson]

I actually think that like, I'm really glad that I did go see it though, because of what you're talking about. The Lily Rose Dead performance is like, that's genuinely electrifying stuff. And I think that that kind of is like the exception that proves the rest of the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Because when it's not a 10 minute reel could have communicated it to me, but that's.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, you saw the Zoom audition that was going around when she. You didn't see this. This is going around on the Internet for the last couple weeks of her Zoom audition for the part because I guess they were maybe casting it during COVID potentially. But it was pretty authentic to the original audition. What actually made it into the movie.

[Brian Curtis]

Should we power rank some movies?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let's do it.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay. Let's bring Joanna Robinson in foreign. What's the best time of day to get a deal? All day with Jack in the box's all day big deal meal. You get to choose from four entrees like the supreme croissant and five tasty sides plus a drink starting at $5. So hurry in or take your time. You've got all day at Jack Every bites a big deal. I think you're on mute.

[Sean Fennessey]

Workday starting to sound the same. I think you're on mute. Find something that sounds better for your career on LinkedIn. With LinkedIn job collections you can browse curated collections by relevant industries and benefits like Flexpto or hybrid workplaces so you can find the right, right job for you. Get [e-mail] jobs finding where you fit. LinkedIn knows how.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay, Joanna Robinson is here. We're going to power rank some of these best picture contenders. But Joe, we haven't spoken since the Academy Award nominations come out. Give us your gloss. What'd you think? Any surprises?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, you know, thumbs up, thumbs down on in general. Pretty thumbs up, I think pretty good. Yeah, pretty good. I would say the big headline stories for me are Nosferatu. Overperforming made me really, really happy. Personally love Nosferatu and I don't know, Sebastian Stan being in the mix is really exciting for me. I think the director lineup is really, really interesting. All first time director nominations, which is really, really Fun. And then my guy, like, my guys, Colman Domingo and Yoro Borisoff being in here, which, like, was not a sure. Sure thing was a probably thing, but not a hundred percent. That thrilled me to my core.

[Brian Curtis]

So you got a lot of what you wanted? I did anything you didn't get that you wanted.

[Sean Fennessey]

Anything. I didn't get that I wanted. You know, I usually. When the snubs happen, I usually sort of feel the sting and then put it in a box away because we have other work to do, which is.

[Brian Curtis]

That's very healthy. I don't do that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Figure out how. How to go forward from there. I don't know. I don't. There's nothing I'm dwelling on, Marian.

[Amanda Dobbins]

John. But you wanted sing in best Picture.

[Sean Fennessey]

I did want sing sing. I did want sing sing in best picture. I guess. I guess I had, like, ramped down my expectations to the point where I was like, Colman getting in is my win at this point. So I took that win, I guess. Yeah. Marianne Jean Baptiste in best Actress.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Amen.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think. Yeah. Was.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I tried to move that conversation up to this episode. Cause that's how much I want to talk about it.

[Brian Curtis]

But we just finished a long disquisition on the brutalist and the brutal movement, so there was not enough room for hard truths.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Amanda weighs in.

[Brian Curtis]

Gavel bang.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can't wait.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Why don't I have a gavel?

[Brian Curtis]

I know you have enough noisemakers for the show.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can you. Can you bang the massive water bottle on the table?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Does that work?

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

This is gonna end up with coffee in my lap every time we do this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I saw a friend of ours recently, Tim Simons, and I brought the water bottle, and he was like, oh, the water bottle.

[Brian Curtis]

Jesus Christ. Yeah, it has a life of its.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Own, the famed water bottle.

[Brian Curtis]

Somehow Chris was ejected from third chair in favor of the water bottle. What about you? Anything like two weeks later that jumps out at you that you've had some time to think on that feels right or wrong or that you're interested in in terms of the races?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Mostly just that I don't know what's gonna happen. And so we're gonna do power rankings. And I feel pretty sure about, Like, I can block them, you know? Like, I know what's in the 10 to 8. I know what's in the middle. I know what my front runners are, the tiers, but I don't. I really don't know. And like you, I find that, like, deeply frustrating and scary. I like to know things. I like to be Right.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is an exciting. You guys aren't excited by the mystery of it? What if we knew? What if we knew every single category was locked down at this point? It would be so boring.

[Brian Curtis]

I agree. I think throughout this season, I have pretended to be intrigued by that while also having some anxiety about not being right. But now that I know that no one is going to be right, really, because this is so hard to predict, and there's still a handful of very important precursors that will probably reveal a lot more to us and we can talk about that. I feel comfortable and excited to not know because I'm not putting any money on this, and I never do. My predictions are my predictions. My track record over the years speaks for itself. I'm pretty good at this. If I suck this year, great. Who cares? What's the difference? You know, maybe this is just about accepting middle life, you know, middle age.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's beautiful.

[Brian Curtis]

You know, I gotta be content with the limitations.

[Sean Fennessey]

That sounds deeply untrue. Giving your reaction. Giving your reaction to being on House of R and like, crushing us in our hypedraft on our podcast. That sounds deeply untrue to me, Sean, but I like the. I like the fiction you've created for yourself.

[Brian Curtis]

Well, I also don't feel in competition with Amanda anymore. You know, I have more empathy for Amanda than I've ever had. And so some of this was rooted in, you know, but it's like, honestly, Amanda has two kids, and I'm like, good luck to you, my friend. Like, I don't know what you're doing. That sounds tough.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Meanwhile, I did think about what your punishment should be if. If I do somehow win the Oscar bet.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Um, this. This happened because I ordered some new three pound weights, and so I think that you should have to do a video podcast holding them out for as long as you possibly can.

[Brian Curtis]

Deal.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Um, I also ordered some 1 pound weights. I. We can. You know, Patreon can be like my. My new 2025 workout routine that I was doing with Bobby earlier. But you could also do the £1 if you want to try.

[Brian Curtis]

I mean, I don't want to do any of them.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

But I'll do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

If I do.

[Sean Fennessey]

Amanda, do you ever, in a pinch, just hold the water bottle out if you can't access your hand weights?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, I've done that before. Or like, a can of, like, beans or something. Sure. You know, I am not the most coordinated person, and I'm trying my best every day to be healthier and, you know, do my weight Training, like all the doctors told me. Do you want to stand? I turned 40.

[Brian Curtis]

Do you want to talk about what you just had for lunch?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, yeah, well, that's. That's not my fault. That's just. That's the location. I had a fun size peanut M and M and a cheese stick.

[Sean Fennessey]

So.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So, so, you know.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, pro protein. I'm hearing protein.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Caloric content, certainly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Anyway, I get nervous that I'll, like, drop the water bottle. Do you know that's fair. Or the. Or the can.

[Brian Curtis]

Joanna, do you feel comfortable knowing the tiers? Cause I'm not even totally sure I feel that comfortable.

[Sean Fennessey]

I know the bottom two, the top three, and then there's a messy middle.

[Brian Curtis]

Ooh, the top three. So let me just throw one wrinkle, which has been pointed out by a few of the pundits out there that I think is kind of interesting, which is that there's a case to be made that this year is starting to look a little bit like 2002. 2002 was the year in which Chicago won Best Picture, but the Pianist, starring Adrien Brody, won screenplay, director, and actor. Is it possible that we have a year that looks just like this in one of two directions? Could it be brutalistic for director, actor, maybe even original screenplay? I don't think so, but maybe. And then either Emilia Perez or Wicked emerges as the winner.

[Sean Fennessey]

No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, sorry.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, yes and no. No, let me do that.

[Brian Curtis]

When that happens, we will be running this back, Joanna, and playing it on the show.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, well, I was with you until Anne. Wicked. How about that?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what I was gonna say.

[Brian Curtis]

Certainly not Wicked.

[Sean Fennessey]

Certainly not Wicked. Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

And Thompson. And Thompson is the only pundit who, coming out of the nominations who has been doing this a long time and knows a lot about the Academy was like, this was a great nominations day for Wicked, even though they didn't get screenplay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Tons of craft. It is Craft. Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, I didn't totally see that. We didn't talk about it. We haven't texted about it. I don't know if Katie saw it that way, for example, like, but Anne, on a couple of different pods, pointed it out, and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna put it in the back of my mind.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, that is true. But I think every nomination in Craft that Wicked got, Emilia Perez also got.

[Brian Curtis]

Very true.

[Sean Fennessey]

And we can't. I mean, also, Dune is showing up all over the Crafts as well, and we all probably have Dune at the bottom of our list. Right? So, like, I know that was Hard.

[Amanda Dobbins]

For you to say out loud, Joe.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was, but I said it. And, you know, I. I believe in truth telling on this podcast. Um, no, I. I just think that the wicked conversation doesn't make any sense to me at this point. Just at this point. Um, but. And also, it's tough to compare this year to 2002 because just so many things are different. Different voting body, um, and rank choice.

[Brian Curtis]

We didn't know that back then.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're going to talk about, you know, some of the controversies surrounding this particular year in campaigning, but Harvey Weinstein's shadow looms so large over that Chicago win that it's really hard to replicate what happened there. But that.

[Brian Curtis]

But that is a great segue to what's happening right now, which is that we are in the midst of one of the most fervent smear campaign seasons we've had in a long time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Speaking of smear campaigns, we've all been educated in the past weeks and months about how they work in 2024. I'm speaking, of course, of Baldoni and Blake Lively.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I. I agree with you. I mean, like, people, like, people are, like, out there working and posting. And, you know, we have the Fernanda Torres blackface scandal. We have Carlos Sophia Gascon's old tweets. Old tweets, you know, which again, I just. Like, Netflix is sponsoring that film. Like, delete the tweets. But I have never understood that. And then at the start of the campaign, is what I'm saying, it's clear.

[Brian Curtis]

That some people who were not previously very famous get famous and don't remember things that they did five years ago. That clearly is what happened.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I just don't understand if, like, if anyone in PR is repping you, why step one on the introduction to being in the spotlight isn't go delete all of your old tweets.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Why is that? Thank you. It's a fair point.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The brutalist, of course, with the AI controversy, which keeps going.

[Brian Curtis]

What else am I, Anora? The lack of an intimacy coordinator. That was an early one in this stretch.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then Emilia Perez was also under the AI umbrella.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. And then. And then also the Emilia Perez. I don't know whether you can count. This is not smear campaign, but there has been, like, a pretty organized, just detraction of its portrayal of both trans characters and Mexico, which I think are legitimate complaints. But there's like a. There's like, a short film that's being passed around, so that is, like, people doing the work.

[Sean Fennessey]

Guys, I watched It.

[Brian Curtis]

Did you watch it? So I haven't seen it yet. Give us our. Give us the review of. What is it called? Remind me what it's called.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't even remember. I'm so sorry. I don't remember what it's called, but maybe you could look it up while I vamp and say that it was put together by a French creator and it is a musical. Sorry, it's. It's put together by a Mexican creator and it's about. It's a musical about the French experience through the eyes of the. This Mexican creator, spoofing the fact that Emilia Perez purports to represent Mexico when it was created by a French person. And the opening dance routine, where the music is. I mean, Emilia Perez has things going for it. I do not think this is the best, like, catchiest musical musical, shall we say.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The songs are bad.

[Sean Fennessey]

The songs are bad. The opening musical number, where the song is basically on par with. I think the quality of the songs in Emilia Perez has people in striped shirts, berets, they have little ratatouille rats. It's all the stereotypes that you can think of of France and it's, you know, it's. The quality is janky, but the intention is kind of funny.

[Brian Curtis]

The name of the short film is Johannes Soccer Bleu.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. Yeah, but so that is an important part of the campaign. And everything that we just mentioned has been getting its airtime. People are. People are. Are out here. But who is seeding these campaigns?

[Brian Curtis]

Cui Bono? Who benefits is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, it's.

[Sean Fennessey]

Follow the money that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, that's what I would say. Is it? Because obviously Harvey Weinstein, in addition to many sexual crimes and assaults, was the key of. Just like, I will take out all my competitors. Can we trace all of these to direct competitors? We. I mean, we can't officially.

[Brian Curtis]

I think that would be a little bit difficult to do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think there's a. A mix. I think it's a mix.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. Or is it overzealous? Not overzealous. I mean, this is the way the Internet works. But is it just. Is it people on the Internet, you.

[Brian Curtis]

Know, stand culture colliding with strategy?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly those.

[Brian Curtis]

I think it's both things happening at the same time. There's a. Now there are literally online armies seeking out some of these materials, while also there are honestly people in the business who do this. They design and of course, campaigns, you know, the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni version of it is very unseemly and very ugly and very public. This stuff is Relatively more harmless because of the frivolous nature of awards. But some of the things that are unearthed are pretty gnarly. Yeah, I would.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's ugly stuff.

[Brian Curtis]

It is very ugly stuff. I'll tell you one movie that is completely unaffected and I'm not saying that it's responsible for anything, but it's fascinating how unaffected it is because it feels like the most old school nominee and that's a complete unknown.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Brian Curtis]

Which got eight nominations, which was a little bit of an over performance, including in many key categories. We just saw Timothee Chalamet honestly just smoked the fuck out of Saturday Night Live. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's a star. I don't know that.

[Brian Curtis]

That was just fabulous. As a Bob Dylan superfan, I salute you. Like the song choices, the oddity. Obviously he's a multi time SNL guest and is always very funny on the show. Has a real knack for it. LaGuardia High School kid that he is. And that's the other lingering thing is like we were doing the could the second the movie at number two win and we were talking about Anora and now I'm like, what about a complete unknown? Is that movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you for bringing this up because we did that podcast at 7:30 in the morning after the Oscar nominees were announced. And so I played the game wrong and there was one listener who reached out to me. I would say it was like, it wasn't mean, the correction. It was like neutral. I could have used a little more friendliness and you know, are you 20, 25, you know, like it's still January somehow. Like help us out.

[Brian Curtis]

Yep. But sue for six more hours.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, there's another day, isn't there?

[Brian Curtis]

Is there other 31 days?

[Amanda Dobbins]

30 days have September, April, June and November. Yeah, that's. I mean it just like it keeps fucking going. So what is number two on the Dune ballot? Is the question. What is number two? Let's ask John.

[Brian Curtis]

That's a perfect question for you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, for. For maybe.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah. If you're doing one.

[Sean Fennessey]

If I'm Dune one, I might be Substance two, honestly.

[Brian Curtis]

Ooh.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, interesting. Okay, I can see that you're a.

[Sean Fennessey]

Complete unknown to perhaps. But I think that the, the problem with this mudslinging that we've just sort of recapped is like. Yes. Is it rising to the level of being reported in the trades? Yes. It's not just Brazilian Stan Armies, you know, on Twitter, you know, spamming things. This is being reported in Deadline, in Variety, et cetera, et cetera. But is it really, really Rising to the level of effect impacting Academy voters. That level of controversy. I don't think the AI controversy made an impact. And I'm not even sure this particular mudslinging perhaps. I mean, Carla's direct involvement in the Emilia Perez. I'm still here back and forth is certainly not doing her campaign any favors. But Netflix and Zoe are staying completely silent on this, I think just to sort of keep their noses clean. So the question is, yes, it's nasty and it's. And it's brutal, but it's. But it's. It all feels a little bit more surface than some of the sort of deep State Harvey moves that we used to see. Do you know what I mean?

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, those. And those campaigns were more coordinated and seated and they often had this, not just a veil of controversy around an individual associated with a movie, but about an ahistorical quality of the film that was often the way that he would lean into these. And this has not quite pursued that same thing. Generally speaking, I don't know if any of the single shots have failed any campaign that had a chance to win at this point. The Carlos Sofia Gascon story, which is extremely fresh in our minds, it just happened today as we're talking about it, because she's so central and is the titular character in that movie, feels like the most. It has pierced the armor of that movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

When it won best Musical Horror Comedy, she gave the emotional speech at the Golden Garden.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I also think that that movie was the most vulnerable to being impacted by something like this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I agree For a couple like Netflix based reasons. But also just like the run up has felt so, so ephemeral and confusing to people.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is little virtue signaling as a vote. I think. I think there is a camp of it who are like, we espouse what we think this movie is about.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right. And of the like green book variety of like, we think we're really doing something here and perhaps we are not doing what we think we're doing here. Correct.

[Brian Curtis]

Does conclave benefit from any of all this?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think so. I met a conclave like Stan in the Wild and I was like, oh, actually I met too because my friend Molly's dad really into conclave.

[Brian Curtis]

Oh, exciting.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So he's not a voter. Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Not a man of the cloth either.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I don't think so.

[Sean Fennessey]

But he's just a guy. A guy who likes conclave.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, just a conclave dad. A conclave dad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I feel like. And maybe we can go through but like as our 10, 9 and 8 if you think about where their second and third vote would go, it might be to Conclave. It has a little bit. I mean, it is a crowd pleaser.

[Brian Curtis]

So as a matter of course, let's recap where we left this off. So before you return, Joanna and I did this on December 20th, and this is where we netted out. Well, before the nominations were announced, at number 10, we had Nickel Boys. At number nine, we had a real pain at eight, a complete unknown at seven, Dune part two. At six, Sing Sing. At five, Emilia Perez. At four, the brutalist at three, Wicked, two Conclave and one Honora. It's been 40 days since then, and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We have been in the desert.

[Brian Curtis]

We obviously missed on two titles here. Yeah. Sing Sing did not make the cut. And A Real Pain did not make the cut. I'm still Here did. And what else am I forgetting that made the cut.

[Sean Fennessey]

Substance.

[Brian Curtis]

Substance. Which. Which Katie lobbied for back in November, and then we took off.

[Sean Fennessey]

I hope she feels. I hope she feels. I know she feels quite smug about it.

[Brian Curtis]

She was like, we. Well before the Golden Globes. Well before.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. You were resistant to this for a long time. You finally did. You did predict it, like, the week before the nomination.

[Brian Curtis]

I did, but for all the reasons I talked about when we talked about it in August, which is just. There's literally no history of a movie like this getting into Best Picture. It's never happened in Oscar history. So it is a. It is, in that respect, a watershed moment, I think, very exciting. It's. It's not my favorite movie of the year, but it was in my top 10. Yeah. So I think we. We aired there by not sticking to at least Katie's guns in that conversation, Joe. But that was a pleasant surprise. I'm still here. I. Did we even talk about it on December 20th?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, we talked. I think we talked about. We might have in a larger context, talked about Fernanda, like, we definitely talked about her, but I don't think we talked about the film at all. And both the substance and I'm Still Here, you know, feeds into something that Amanda's always reminding us of is just like, bear in mind the international vote. Bear in mind the international vote. And bearing in mind the international vote, does that mean we need to take the Golden Globes more seriously than we've been taking it? Because it used to be Golden Globes is something of a precursor for one reason, but now is it a precursor for a different reason, which is this, like, block of international voters? I think we can all agree that the Demi Narrative coming out of the Golden Globes helped push the substance into this. Into this category. And the Fernando win also. So, you know, it's. It might be a little bit of a chicken and egg scenario, but I think it's. It's important to always listen to Amanda, I guess, is the. And Katie.

[Brian Curtis]

Maybe not. Maybe not always.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's a big world, you know.

[Brian Curtis]

It is a big world. Well, I wanted to ask you both about this, too, because that point that you're making, Joanna, is interesting. And I'm. I'm not sure if this is just a coincidence or maybe a signal of how things are evolving within the Academy, but all five Best Actress nominees appearing in best picture nominated films almost never happens. In fact, it's usually a standout performance in a film that does not get the same level of plaudits, at least from the Academy.

[Sean Fennessey]

So, Fernand, the 1970s, the last time.

[Brian Curtis]

Is that the last time that was the case?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

So that's. I mean, 55 years is a long stretch. So anyway, I'm not sure what that says, but one thing that is notable about that Golden Globe split is that Fernanda was the only person who was nominated now in this category competing in drama, and all four of the other nominees were all competing in comedy or musical. So it's a little hard to even know how strong Fernanda Torres is. Except the movie got into Best Picture, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Which is still very surprising to me.

[Sean Fennessey]

But it got into Best Picture. And I think we should celebrate it being here. But I think because it was not nominated for screenplay, editing, or directing, it belongs at the bottom of our list.

[Brian Curtis]

You think it's 10? You think it's 10?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. It's either that or Dune. I'm happy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think it's Dune because Dune at the bottom because I do not underestimate the Brazilians.

[Sean Fennessey]

Dune also did not get directing, screenplay, or editing.

[Brian Curtis]

Sure, Nickel Boys, guys.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I think the fact that Nickel Boys made it in and did get screenplay.

[Sean Fennessey]

It got screenplay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's like there is awareness and movement of it. Like it. Its inclusion, to me signifies something.

[Brian Curtis]

I don't know how it gets in. I guess it got in screenplay because that category isn't that strong this year. It should have been in cinematography. That's the thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

But also Rommel getting sort of snubbed in directing was, you know, a big. A lot of people were really bummed and surprised by that. And I feel less so the case with my love, Denis. You know, like, I feel like I was disappointed that Denis wasn't In there. But I think more people really wanted Ramel Ross in there than they wanted to in there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Respectfully, the writing was on the wall for Denis pretty early.

[Brian Curtis]

It's a damn shame. Okay, so I like to just roll with you guys. You guys can help me guide this. So you think I'm still here at 10 and dune at 9 or not dune at 9? I would dune at 10.

[Sean Fennessey]

Either way, I think they're 9 and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

10 and I'm still here at 9.

[Brian Curtis]

Do you like dune part two? You do?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I had a. I had a very nice time. We all saw it together. Like, oh, damn. When that was. That's a great time. The guys, they float.

[Brian Curtis]

If you were in Paul Atreides's shoes, would you choose Zendaya or Florence Pugh?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, wow. Well, I kind of forgot what his shoes are.

[Brian Curtis]

So.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So there are like a lot of prophecies that he's gonna like. What?

[Sean Fennessey]

Lawrence Pugh, hot princess, Political marriage. Right, Zendaya? Mary for love, Mary for, you know, the people.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, but doesn't he also know he's gonna, like.

[Brian Curtis]

Don't spoil anything.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, I stopped. Okay, don't. What did I tell you?

[Brian Curtis]

I haven't read Dune Messiah. Unlike you, I will block you. Block me from what? Sitting beside you on a bi weekly basis for the next 25 years.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I just thought he kind of knows that he has to pick Florence Pugh, so it's more about survival.

[Brian Curtis]

That doesn't answer the question of what you would do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I would be Rebecca Ferguson. So I've been planning this all along. Listen, it's a mother of a son. Both of those movies have come out when I was pregnant, and I have. Really? Really.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, but my follow up question is this. Do you feel like you're going to be able to sit there and podcast on a bi weekly basis wearing like 20 tablecloths at any given moment? I mean, is that something you can do?

[Amanda Dobbins]

At this point in my quote unquote YouTube career, I would welcome having a uniform, you know?

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, all right.

[Brian Curtis]

We love a YouTube career here at the Ringer, don't we?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

40 years old.

[Sean Fennessey]

We love to swathe ourselves in tablecloths in order to podcast.

[Brian Curtis]

Chris was onto something with all that layering. He's just hiding, you know, At a certain point, he's just going to be all blanket. Okay, Joanna, if we go dune part two at 10, I'm still here at nine. What do you say is the last in the eight, nine, ten nickel boys. And you agree?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that's Right.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay. Nickel boys. Okay, seven films left. Many people say there are six films that could win. How many films do you think can win?

[Amanda Dobbins]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5?

[Brian Curtis]

Agree with that, Joanna?

[Sean Fennessey]

4.

[Brian Curtis]

You think 4. Okay, so then what's it? 7, 6 and 5. Or rather 7 and 6. For the. Just for the sake of this conversation.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess seven is. I would say Wicked. What would you say?

[Brian Curtis]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. It's only got editing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

It doesn't have direct, I think also.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, so the people who are voting for Wicked first. Well, I don't think that there are enough of them, so that's really all that matters. I was trying to play it out with number two, but I guess, like, no one who's voting for Dune is gonna put Wicked at number two.

[Brian Curtis]

I could be wrong about this, but I think I read that the last time a film did not have nominations for directing or writing and went on to win best Picture was Grand Hotel in 1930. Okay, so that puts Wicked in a very difficult position.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mm. That's why it's at the bottom.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay, so Wicked is seven. Number six.

[Sean Fennessey]

Substance.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I agree.

[Brian Curtis]

Do you think the substance is that strong? I guess it does have a lot of nominations.

[Amanda Dobbins]

When I said I think that five movies could win, then in the back of my head, I was like, actually, like, then watch the substance win and me be totally wrong, as I do think the substance could be 6. I don't think it's gonna win either.

[Brian Curtis]

Crazy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't think it's going to win either. But listen, like, it. Nothing is too divisive.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think it's as wide of a field as we're worried it is. I think it's a much more narrow field. But, yeah, I would put the substance.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I also think it's at six, but.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay, so what are your five that you think can win or are what's here now? So, Joanna, if you think it's only four, then what goes into the five spot?

[Sean Fennessey]

Complete unknown.

[Brian Curtis]

Oh, man. I'm not convinced.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I think.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think. I don't think Conclave. I don't think Conclave is. I think the director snub for Conclave and the fact that Stanley Tucci didn't get nominated. Like, there's a lot of things that just sort of make it look like. Like Conclave is likely is like a favorite to win in screenplay. Right. Like, I think it's gonna get screenplay win, but it's just nominated for screenplay and editing. It's not. Not like the burger snub. It feels really pointy.

[Brian Curtis]

Right. So you're saying that Conclave is five.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Brian Curtis]

Sorry, I thought you were saying a complete unknown is five.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, no, no. I think you asked me that and I misspoke. Conclave is five for me.

[Brian Curtis]

And then I think I agree with that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Complete unknown.

[Brian Curtis]

You don't agree with that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think I do too, but I'm just thinking through it because the director.

[Brian Curtis]

Missed for Conclave and Mangled getting in, in addition to Mangled getting screenplay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

And Barbaro and Norton. I don't know, I, that movie. You could talk me into being top three right now. You really could.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Over, over and over and over. I kind of think it might be.

[Brian Curtis]

You don't think so?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think so. I just, because, okay, I, I, it.

[Brian Curtis]

Is very old academy. It doesn't really look like a movie that would win Best Picture right now based on what we've seen with, you know, Nomadland and Moonlight and movies that like, you know, everything everywhere, all at once, like a complete unknown is something very traditional. It's a good version of traditional, but.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is, I mean, what's true about Anora, and I think it's worth noting is that it has very little below the line support. So, you know, that's a tough beat for Anora. But I think it's silly to ignore directing, screenplay, and editing as these bellwether categories. And since Honora Brutalist and Emilia Perez all have all three, I think it's silly to keep any of those out of the top three. But I'm happy to put complete unknown.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like argument it is.

[Brian Curtis]

And I think a lot of people think that Sean Baker has a strong chance to win editing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

And he, he cuts all of his own movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

So that, you know, editing has historically been a bellwether. I'm not as obsessed with that correlation as I was maybe three or four years ago. I think ranked choices kind of fucked with that a little bit.

[Sean Fennessey]

But that's true. It's just the only exception is something like Birdman, where they mistakenly thought there wasn't any editing in that heavily edited movie. But other than that, editing is like one of the strongest precursors for a Best Picture win.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So the thing I'm having trouble with, with the Complete Unknown is like, I can't, I can't group it in terms of the ranked ballot. Like, I don't know what the other movies that a complete unknown stand is going for, and vice versa, you know, like, yeah, I think, is it number two on a Dune Person's ballot. Is it number two on a Nickel Boys ballot? Like, I don't think so, but I.

[Brian Curtis]

Think Conclave, Wicked, Dune Part two, these are Hollywood movies. They're big productions. They're, they're all about like a certain kind of classical craft. And so in my mind I see those movies as all sort of grouped together.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

And so you've got a producer who's been working in Hollywood for 40 years, who's a member of the Academy, who's a 62 year old man. He probably likes a Complete unknown.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It could be number two on a lot of Wicked ballads. I think I was grouping Wicked and Emilia Perez in my mind, but maybe.

[Brian Curtis]

I think they're different. I do think they're very different. And I think then there's also the Netflix factor too, and that, you know, that's a streamer movie and none of these other movies really are Nickel Boys is Amazon. But I don't think it's seen that way because it had a theatrical release and yada yada. I, I'm, I, I'm willing to ride your editing point and say a complete unknown is 4 and a Nora is 3. What do you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm good with that too. I like, you know, the history, but look how high.

[Sean Fennessey]

Look how high. Complete Unknown has come.

[Brian Curtis]

Like, that is amazing. I don't think we had it on our list in November.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a part of it, I think is like, you know, the, the strength of the traditional Oscar movie, the Bob Dylan fandom that's out there. Timmy doing a masterful job in the campaign and, and, and all the rest mangled. Getting into directing is a bit surprising and unsettling for me, but I am, I liked Complete Unknown. It just doesn't feel like a very splash directed movie. Do you know what I mean? But someone was pointing out to me, and I love this, that like, I think it's how many of the directors, all of them are screenplay and directing or wrote and directed their films.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes, that's right. Which I don't think is great. And frankly, a lot of writers seem frustrated by because I think it's fascinating. Who was it? I think it was Michael Weber, the screenwriter, who pointed out on Blue sky that the job of writing a movie for a director is so complicated and that reaching a director's vision while also maintaining your own point of view and artistry is very different than a writer director coming in. Like, for example, Mangold was very open about talking about how he rewrote Jay Cox's script. Yes, that was adapting The Elijah Wald book. He just said it. He just said it at a Q and A in front of press. He was like, I just took this. I read this script. I liked it, but I was like, I wouldn't do it this way. I'm gonna do it a different way. Just his. Right. Obviously, as an artist. But then now he and Jay Cox share this nomination because Jay Cox built the house and then James Mangold redesigned it, as opposed to Spike Jones, not Spike Jonze. Charlie Kaufman writes a movie and then some filmmaker goes off and makes that movie. They're just different jobs. And so I thought that delineation. I hadn't totally thought about that delineation in that way. And it made me wonder if we. If we're an increasingly tourist academy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, it's similar to. Similar things are happening with the Emmys. There was like a run, you know, where like, you would get wins for, like, Phoebe Waller Bridge or Donald Glover, Ziz Ansari, like, these, like, star creators of their own show. And that's sort of a trend you see over on that side. And so I think it is an interesting, you know, do we award someone for being the most. The most nominated, you know, sort of thing. And, I mean, obviously Emilia Perez hopes those. But, you know, I just think that's a really interesting stat this year.

[Brian Curtis]

So we'll say a complete unknown is at four. Anora is at three. Anora, which got six nominations. All six that it needed to maintain some presence at the top of the heap. And then Emilia Perez and the Brutalist. Now they've both taken on controversies in the last couple weeks.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure have.

[Brian Curtis]

We've just had a long conversation about the Brutalists.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I mean, the thing about the Brutalists is that I. I still don't know how widely seen it is. And yes, it's on the Academy portal and everyone's job to watch it, but will they, you know.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, that's a real big if. I think it has the votes of most of the people who make a point of seeing it, certainly over Emilia Perez. It's like. It's like a pure. It's a numbers thing.

[Brian Curtis]

I think there's a couple of what ifs or confirmations when the precursors come around.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

For example, if the brutalist wins the PGAs, I think it's over.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

I think the Brutalist will win. If it doesn't, I don't think it means that it's over for the Brutalist.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Agree.

[Brian Curtis]

I think any other movie could win if a Nora wins. Pga, which I don't think is going to happen, but if it does happen, then I'm really going to be thrown for a loop.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

And I'm not. I. I'm gonna think every race.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Are you able to share who you voted for?

[Brian Curtis]

Uh, yeah, it's just my. If you look at my countdown list, the order of my. I always do the order of my list. Um, so the brutals would be one nickel, boys would be two, et cetera, et cetera.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

Um, I don't think BAFTA Best Picture figures in as much in this race, because I think Conclave is gonna win.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

But if it doesn't win, that could also signal something.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

I think I don't totally know what's gonna happen with sag, but it could be wicked for sag, and that could just end up being like, the Hidden figures win, where it's just, like, people like this movie and it's a great ensemble, but it doesn't indicate Best Picture. Or it does.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Or that feels like another place where it could be Emilia Perez.

[Brian Curtis]

And if that happens, you'll see a lot of people start predicting Emilia Perez. So this is a kind of a. It is a fun set of precursors here that may or may not deserve. What do you think, Joanna?

[Sean Fennessey]

I've been over complicating this, and I'm trying to, like, simplify it in my own head. As. Like, as is often the case at this time in the campaign, we get spun out trying to. I think it's neck and neck between the Brutalists and Emilia Perez right now for a number of reasons. And I don't. I. Earlier in the campaign, I was like, there's no way Emilia Perez is going to make it as far to be a frontrunner in the Oscars. And I was wrong. And so I don't want to count it out when it has just won again and again and again. But we also have the history of the over nominated but never winning Netflix movie. And so if this goes down the power of the dog Mank Roma route, should we be surprised by that? We shouldn't be surprised by that. You know what I mean? Because we've seen it time again, I'll have you know.

[Brian Curtis]

Mank one Cinematography. Joanna. So how dare you. Eric Messerschmitt. His. His Oscar lives on.

[Sean Fennessey]

But not to say no wins, but not to say just because it gets all the nominations means it's a done deal.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The Irishman did not win an Oscar over 10. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

So for right now, I'm putting the slight edge on The Brutalist.

[Brian Curtis]

What do you think?

[Sean Fennessey]

But it's a slight edge.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I, I'm. Where both of you are where it seems pretty neck and neck, I do think. I think actually both movies appeal to an international voter because as we discussed, it is a very European view on America. By it, I mean the Brutalist, even though it is made by an American, I do think there is just something to the undeniability of Emilia Perez. You know, we should also point out that since you guys did the last list, we have a new president and he's not exactly Ben friendly to anything.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who'd you vote for? Yes. On the one hand, yes, if we want to talk about the resistance Oscars, obviously, like, we could talk about that. But I also think the Brutalist, with its critique of what American industry does to artistry, you know, the, you know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which I won't talk about specifics, but I'll just say that's a great story.

[Brian Curtis]

It's also an amazing story.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, yeah, you can just say Carrera. And I think, like, we know. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I think that, like, I think Emilia Perez is the more obvious sort of, you know, we're trying to stand for something vote. But I think the Brutalist is also there. And then the Brutalist also has the advantage of being in that Oppenheimer bucket. And we talked about this before on the big pic of like, recognizing a great. The great genius of a man and how that is, like, an important narrative that the Oscars really, like, over. I think it's the reason why you don't often see Best Actresses nominated for Best Picture nominees, because stories about interesting women aren't necessarily what the Academy thinks is the Best picture picture. And so I think when it comes down to it, if you're telling, if you're asking me what do I think the Academy, even this new international body academy, is going to vote for, I think it might be the story of the. The. The misunderstood, maligned male genius.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I, I buy that. I think you're right. I do also think, looking at, like, our, our 10 through 7 or 10 through 5, I think the Brutalist will be higher on the ballots of most of those people than Emilia Perez will. And I think that's sort of the. That's ultimately the decider. Right. Cause it's what's. It's collecting votes in later rounds.

[Sean Fennessey]

The other thing to consider on the Netflix front, to contradict myself, is that as opposed to previous years when Netflix had, like, such a spread of nominations, they would often do well in the documentary or they would have, you know, like a second or third, you know, nomination floating around. Maria and the Piano Lesson are sort of out of the game, so they're not having to like focus their attention on running in like an Angelina Jolie best actress campaign or focus on the documentary category, which they usually focus on, or anything like that. They have all of their resources to pour into this concerted Amelia Perez effort.

[Brian Curtis]

So it's not as though they were light on resources in the past.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, like, if you're slightly split focused and then you're not split focused at all, then that's somewhat different.

[Brian Curtis]

Do you think this is the closest they got? Or was Roma closer or was Power of the Dog closer?

[Sean Fennessey]

Roma felt so close. Really, really close.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And Roma also felt like people really. That was like the anti Netflix vote.

[Brian Curtis]

Sentiment, not the anti Cuaron sentiment.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, I think it's. I still. There's a part of me that won't let myself believe that the Brutalist will win because I. And while I respect what you're saying, and I think Oppenheimer obviously does look like an old version of the Academy celebrating a great man. Oppenheimer just had the Christopher Nolan its time thing going in such a heavy way, and it was a $980 million movie. Like, there's really never been anything like Oppenheimer. So it had a lot of.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was. It's not the only reason it won, but I think it's like it was a factor. A factor.

[Brian Curtis]

But if you look at the three previous best picture winners before that, which really constitutes kind of the new Academy, I think most clearly it's everything everywhere, all at once. Coda and Nomadland, which is like such a strange trio, all three female centered stories, smaller movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

I refuse to use the Nomadland Covid year as an indicator of anything that was such. Yeah, I do believe that that's an.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Asterisk, but then the year before that is parasite. So that. Which is also very unusual, but at least like, you know, we can hold our heads high on that one.

[Brian Curtis]

Right. So I don't know. It's. I mean, it's good because it's. I feel like it's helpful to use historical context as a prism through to. To look through the future. But it's not like it's not. Everything is different. Ten nominees now, 10,000 Academy members ranked choice voting, more international body. Yada, yada, yada, yada. Everything's different. So I wonder what this will tell us. About it, if anything, or if it'll just be a randomized sequence of events, just like everything else in life.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you want to, out of superstition and in order to protect your own heart, put the brutalist second so that it gets to be, like, an underdog story?

[Brian Curtis]

No, because I'm not, like, rooting for it. Like a fan or something, I think.

[Sean Fennessey]

You don't have the Brazilian flag in your blue sky bio.

[Brian Curtis]

No, because, I mean, I think it's a pretty good collection of nominees. I think I would be extremely annoyed if Wicked won. Emilia Perez, I don't think should win, and I don't love that movie at all. And I think Netflix winning at this exact time in entertainment history is complicated, and I wouldn't feel good about it. Everything else on the list is a movie I either like or love. And I can't say that in a lot of Oscar years. So it's not like, you know, if Anora wins. Anora is great, big fan, so number one movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

If a complete unknown wins, I would be happy.

[Brian Curtis]

It wouldn't have been my choice, but I couldn't be, like, furious about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It would be a little bit like Billy Crystal coming back to the Oscars. You know, I would feel warm and cozy.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would feel great about that. I just. I don't want it to seem like I'm out here just banging the drum against Emilia Perez. I just think that's okay. I think it would be a bad win. And I think the Brutalists or. Which isn't a movie I even, like, loved entirely, but I admire so much more than I admire Emilia Perez or Complete Unknown or Anora or even Conclave. You know, I just think substance, they would.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, keep going. We gotta get to number seven for me.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. So, yeah, there's.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Can I tell you that I finally. I met a real Emilia Perez fan in the Wild?

[Brian Curtis]

No, tell us.

[Amanda Dobbins]

My father loved it.

[Brian Curtis]

Wow.

[Amanda Dobbins]

My dad, like, in the middle of, like, my two children, like, trying to eat the phone, was like, hey, I loved Emilia Perez. It's like a new opera. And my dad is, like, loves opera. And so I said, okay, you know, I can see that. I think that that is probably, like, the best structural, you know, idea defense that you can make of the movie. But then I said to him, okay, but the songs are really bad. And then his response to me, he was like, go back and listen to some Verdi and then give me a call. And I was like, sir, it is eight in the morning. Like, we're not gonna be throwing shots. At Verity. Um, but yeah, I guess that that's one opera guy who does have a penchant for hot takes.

[Brian Curtis]

What was his take on its portrayal of trans identity in 2024?

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, we didn't get to that because my son was like, here's a truck.

[Sean Fennessey]

Um, I guess the question I have about all of this big pic hosts is what's the best for movies? What's the best for the movies in terms of a win?

[Brian Curtis]

We talked about this a little bit with the Brutalist, that I think a movie like the Brutalist inspires something hopefully in the future of movie fandom and movie making that I think is very valuable. But I think Sean Baker does the same thing. Sean Baker is an independent filmmaker who does not waver from his point of view. He works with a very small team. He never spends too much money. He's gone up, up, up, up, up quietly in his career. His movies are always interesting, even if you don't like them. And a win for someone like him is a good story and good for movies. A complete unknown is a little bit more of just a straight up industry story where it's like a biopic of a famous person with the biggest young movie star in America and the steadiest hand in Hollywood. But it's not bad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, but I think what Joe is asking is like, what's good in terms of the. Ask what's the best in terms of Oscars as like an ambassadors, you know, ship for things that we love? Which is like the answer is nothing.

[Brian Curtis]

Nothing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Do you disagree?

[Sean Fennessey]

What would be the movie that would be the answer? Nothing. There's no good option.

[Brian Curtis]

It wasn't that kind of a year. It wasn't. It really was not that kind of a year. I don't think it doesn't feel like a year where when Titanic wins, you're like, this is it. This is what?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It wasn't a Barbenheimer year. We had it the year before.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, there are a variety of reasons why that happened. It doesn't. I'm not, I don't think, I'm not trying to criticize any particular movie by saying that, but I don't know if there is a movie that represents what this all could or should be like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, all of. Almost all of these movies, if they win, I will get a text from like the non movie friends in my life being like, what is that? Should I watch it? You know, which is just. And then the answer will probably be like, I don't want Your angry texts after you do so. No.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean it depends.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's you know. So Nora, maybe you know that's not true.

[Amanda Dobbins]

One of my friends, Katie who is normally text me being like what is this? Did watch Anora loved it and also wanted me to know that she recognized the strip club and thinks it's a very good strip club.

[Brian Curtis]

That's sick.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And then was mad when I like didn't give her enough credit for it. So Katie, here you go.

[Sean Fennessey]

If we're, if we're, if we're thinking about movies that would anger our non movie friends if they watched it just because it won best picture.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Emilia Perez the Brutalist and the subs. No, no, the subs.

[Brian Curtis]

I think Nickel Boys is there too. Which is a movie I would love to see seriously in it. But is a movie that many common movies moviegoers are like what the hell? Like I don't know how to do this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But it's definitely number one and two. Like these are the movies that would would irk people the most if they're just like sweeping in and I think.

[Brian Curtis]

To the resistance Oscars question if Amelia Perez wins the Oscars are immediate. I don't think they want that because I think it's immediately going to be clarified as like woke Hollywood rewards movie that even woke people can't agree on which that could very well be the outcome.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

I also as we always should like to look for and this is something I should have brought up with substance earlier. Always look for a movie that can make Hollywood feel good about their own jobs, their own industry. And I think something like the substance which is about celebrity, which is about existing in Hollywood is like something that's, that's a movie about being in movies to a certain degree.

[Brian Curtis]

Yep.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Brutalist I think you could say is in that it's a, it's a movie about artistry and artistry struggling like bumping up against cynical industry. I think could appeal to a lot of artists.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But how many of the people voting because it's not just directors and actors voting, it is producers and you know, every single below the line category. How many of those people are watching and thinking yes I am Lazlo to And how many of those people are watching and thinking yeah okay, you think you're Lazlo to But I'm like dealing. I have to deal with your every day.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think the below the line people, I mean I think that's a really. I always like to look at the movies that were nominated Heavily below the line. Because in the below. Below the line, people who could say, like, yeah, this represents our craft, what we do. And so I think the Brutalist does appeal. Both Emilia Perez and the Brutalist appeal in that regard, whereas Anora doesn't. So, yeah.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay, I'm going to recap this list that we've put together.

[Sean Fennessey]

This mess.

[Brian Curtis]

This is our second to last power rankings before the Academy Awards.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Brian Curtis]

We only have one more in February. Number 10, Dune Part 2. Number 9, I'm Still Here. Number 8, Nickel Boys. Number 7, Wicked. Number 6, the Substance. Number 5, Conclave. Number 4, A Complete Unknown. Number 3, In Nora. Number 2, Emilia Perez. And number 1, The Brutalist. Is this the first time the Brutalist topped the charts? I think so, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

We had an aura up there for so long.

[Brian Curtis]

We did. And I believe brutalist was 4 last time it's since been released. One other last point that I thought about is both a Brutalist and a complete unknown. Undermine this story that had been happening over the last five years of the December release. Don't release your movie in December. It's too late.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Brian Curtis]

And in these two cases, and they were different. One was a festival movie that came out in the fall. One was held all the way until late November before critics and Academy members saw it again.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's like, it's a strange year that happened because there was sort of the vacuum and.

[Brian Curtis]

And he finished it in June.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. And. But also, Anora won the Palm and everyone was just like, okay, Anora, do, do, do, do, do. And waiting for some sort of challenge, and it just didn't really happen. But if you wait until December, you take the risk that someone swoops in in October and is like, I got.

[Brian Curtis]

This very unusual year. So maybe not enough to be taken from that meanwhile.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, the lesson. Sure, we can. We can maybe take that. You can release it late in the year. Lesson. But I'm just gonna do one last love letter to Dune and say, don't drop your movie at the beginning of the year. People's memories are too short, except for.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Everything everywhere all at once.

[Brian Curtis]

That's the counterweight to that.

[Sean Fennessey]

But that came later.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was March.

[Brian Curtis]

It was. It was maybe. Maybe early April. It premiered at south by and came.

[Sean Fennessey]

Out very shortly after that.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, maybe it was early April, but it was very early in the year. So I don't know. The thing is, there's no playbook. Everything that we used to think, well.

[Sean Fennessey]

How do we do our jobs?

[Brian Curtis]

Well, we don't know any this is why I said I have to have empathy for Amanda and not worry about winning anything, because I don't fucking know. I'm just some guy holding weights, you know? Well, I think I'll win the Oscar bet, so I'm not as worried about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, the director thing, I just got.

[Brian Curtis]

I got one thing in my favor, but, you know, I won't lord it over you. I'll just make you take a beautiful photograph in front of my collection.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, great.

[Brian Curtis]

Maybe you can be there that day, Joanna. You can. You can join us in the media.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll be in town for this award season. I'm excited. I'll be in la.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Are you going to parties?

[Sean Fennessey]

Probably not. That doesn't sound like something.

[Brian Curtis]

You make it sound like you go to parties, which you do not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I was like, maybe I want to go to some parties after we record with Joe. But then I thought about how tired I would be.

[Brian Curtis]

We could go to the bar. The three of us could go to the bar.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, that does sound fine, but it's like, you know, sometimes parties are fun. They have past apps, and I like that.

[Brian Curtis]

All right, let's wrap this up.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you want to go get in and out at the Vanity Fair party with me?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I would do that.

[Brian Curtis]

Joanna, you have 900 pods. I'd like to encourage everyone who listens to podcasts to listen to all your pods.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Really? It's really true. Like, getting on Joanna's calendar is tough work and we appreciate you making the time for us.

[Brian Curtis]

Thank you, Joanna.

[Sean Fennessey]

Always, always a joy.

[Brian Curtis]

Thanks to Joanna Robinson. Thanks, Amanda. Thanks to our video producer, Jack Sanders. Thanks to our show producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. Next week on the show we're talking about.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You went to Sundance one night only.

[Brian Curtis]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You saw 15 hours.

[Brian Curtis]

You saw how many films?

[Amanda Dobbins]

One.

[Brian Curtis]

You saw one film? I'm watching dozens of movies virtually over the next four days. We'll come back and talk about them.

[Amanda Dobbins]

An equal partnership, just like the brutalist.

[Brian Curtis]

You are, er, Jabette, in this equation. I guess so, anyhow. And then maybe Nickel Boys as well. Yes, we'll get into it. Which we hope more people are seeing every day.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Go see it.

[Brian Curtis]

Go see that great film. We'll see you then.