‘Captain America: Brave New World’ Is Marvel’s Rock Bottom. Now What?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture – ‘Captain America: Brave New World’ Is Marvel’s Rock Bottom. Now What?

Episode Information:

• Title: ‘Captain America: Brave New World’ Is Marvel’s Rock Bottom. Now What?
• Host/Author: The Ringer
• Hosts: Sean Fennessy and Amanda Dobbins
• Release Date: February 14, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Big Picture, hosts Sean Fennessy and Amanda Dobbins delve deep into Marvel’s latest installment, “Captain America: Brave New World”. Released amidst much anticipation, the film marks the 35th entry in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU). The hosts critically evaluate the movie's reception, production quality, and its ramifications for the future of the MCU.

Hosts' Initial Impressions and Expectations

Sean Fennessy and Amanda Dobbins approached the film with an open mind but soon found themselves disappointed. They attended a private screening at Wood Ranch, Burbank, where initial excitement was quickly overshadowed by the film's shortcomings.

Amanda Dobbins remarks at [02:05] about the spontaneity of their decision to review the film, indicating they watched it together shortly after its release:

"We decided to do this episode about 10 minutes ago. So we have seen the film. We saw it together."

Critical Analysis of the Movie

Plot and Continuity Issues

The movie attempts to weave multiple loose threads from previous MCU projects but falls short in execution. The incorporation of characters from the 2008 “The Incredible Hulk” and the 2021 “Falcon and the Winter Soldier” creates a convoluted narrative that confuses both casual viewers and hardcore fans.

Sean highlights the disjointed storytelling:

"This movie speaks directly to plot developments from a movie that came out 17 years ago… but it seems like it's a tax write-off for a bunch of other properties" ([05:45]).

Character Development and Performances

The performance of Harrison Ford as the Red Hulk draws significant criticism. While Ford is a celebrated actor, his portrayal lacks depth and fails to resonate with audiences.

Amanda expresses her frustration:

"He did not have any meaningful presence throughout the movie... his performance was really mad" ([13:30]).

Sean agrees, pointing out the poor writing undermines even Anthony Mackie's portrayal of Sam Wilson:

"The writing in this movie is absolutely dreadful… But the performances are okay." ([12:54]).

Production Quality and Visuals

The film suffers from subpar CGI and poorly choreographed fight scenes. The visual execution fails to maintain the high standards set by previous MCU films, leading to a lackluster cinematic experience.

Amanda criticizes the CGI:

"This CGI is like inexcusable… and the fight scenes were pretty lame." ([06:55]).

Sean adds:

"The lighting is like an 8th-grade play version… it's all so fake." ([16:50]).

Connections to the MCU and Other Marvel Stories

The movie attempts to bridge gaps between various MCU stories, including the introduction of Isaiah Bradley and references to “Secret Invasion”. However, these connections feel forced and do not add meaningful depth to the overall narrative.

Sean explains the retconning issues:

"This is an X-Men dog whistle… They’re trying to hint at future storylines but it feels incongruent." ([24:17]).

Impact on Future MCU Phases

The disappointing reception of “Brave New World” casts a shadow over upcoming MCU projects. Hosts discuss the potential fallout, including diminished audience interest and financial risks for future films like “Thunderbolts” and “Fantastic Four”.

Sean speculates on the future:

"If they mess up the next five, it's kind of over… Hollywood is going to freak out." ([28:27]).

Amanda echoes concerns about sustaining audience interest:

"I think if you're 25 and you thought this was fun, I want you to ask more for your life… but 13's okay." ([59:55]).

Comparison to Other MCU and Cinematic Universe Films

Contrasting with successful films like “Black Panther” and “John Wick”, which maintained high production values and strong storytelling, “Brave New World” fails to captivate. The hosts lament the loss of individual vision and the over-reliance on interconnected storytelling.

Sean notes the difference:

"Black Panther is shot beautifully with strong framing and character depth… this movie has none of that." ([50:33]).

Amanda adds:

"These movies aren't funny anymore. The special effects are not good. The fight scenes are kind of dull." ([47:57]).

General Discussion on the State of the MCU and Cinematic Universes

The episode broadens the discussion to the sustainability and quality of sprawling cinematic universes. Hosts argue that the MCU’s relentless expansion compromises individual film quality, leading to audience fatigue and diminishing returns.

Sean reflects on the broader implications:

"Cinematic universes have become something that did not really exist 20 years ago… it's kind of destructive for even the idea of sequels." ([54:43]).

Amanda concurs, questioning the creative direction:

"Do they really want any individuality? Or do they just want widgets for the fans?" ([53:39]).

Conclusion

Sean Fennessy and Amanda Dobbins wrap up the episode by expressing deep disappointment in “Captain America: Brave New World”. They question the future of the MCU, worrying about its ability to rebound from recent missteps. The hosts hope for a revitalization through upcoming projects but remain skeptical based on the current trajectory.

Amanda concludes:

"If you're 25 and you thought this was fun, I want you to ask more for your life. But 13's okay." ([59:55]).

Sean closes with a reflective note:

"We're in our position now, I'm like another 10 years of Marvel for me. Really?" ([57:34]).

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• Amanda Dobbins [06:55]: "This CGI is like inexcusable… and the fight scenes were pretty lame."
• Sean Fennessy [12:54]: "The writing in this movie is absolutely dreadful… But the performances are okay."
• Sean Fennessy [24:17]: "This is an X-Men dog whistle… They’re trying to hint at future storylines but it feels incongruent."
• Sean Fennessy [28:27]: "If they mess up the next five, it's kind of over… Hollywood is going to freak out."
• Amanda Dobbins [59:55]: "I think if you're 25 and you thought this was fun, I want you to ask more for your life… but 13's okay."
• Sean Fennessy [54:43]: "Cinematic universes have become something that did not really exist 20 years ago… it's kind of destructive for even the idea of sequels."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Big Picture serves as a critical examination of Marvel’s latest cinematic misstep. Sean Fennessy and Amanda Dobbins provide a thorough dissection of “Captain America: Brave New World”, highlighting systemic issues within the MCU’s storytelling and production processes. Their insights underscore growing concerns about the future direction and sustainability of large-scale cinematic universes.

For those who haven’t listened to the episode, it offers a candid and in-depth critique that sheds light on the complexities and challenges faced by blockbuster franchises in maintaining quality and audience engagement.

Transcript

[Amy Poehler]

Hi everyone, it's Amy Poehler and I'm launching a new podcast called Good Hang. In preparation for that, I asked some of my friends to send in some videos and give me some advice.

[Sean Fennessy]

Just be yourself and the guests will come.

[Amy Poehler]

Don't be the celebrity that this is their, like sixth thing they're doing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I love true crime and cooking podcasts. Is there any way you could combine the two?

[Amy Poehler]

Well, everyone has an opinion and a podcast, so join me for Good Hang. It's rough out there. We're just trying to lighten it up a little.

[Sean Fennessy]

This episode is brought to you by the White Lotus Season 3. It's enlightened, it's twisted. And this time we're finding the dark side of an exclusive wellness resort in beautiful Thailand. Expect some picture perfect travelers that are anything but and some cheerful staff that have got a secret or two. Same luxury, new reservations. We can't wait to see what happens. Watch a new season of the Emmy award winning HBO original series the White Lotus. Premiering February 16th at 9pm on MAX. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. From your morning podcast to your afternoon playlist, State Farm knows you personalize your entire day. And that's why State Farm helps you personalize your insurance with the State Farm personal price plan. It offers coverage options that help protect what you care about most at an affordable price. Just for you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Sean Fennessy]

Prices vary by state, options selected by customer. Availability and eligibility may vary. I'm Sean Fennessy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

[Sean Fennessy]

And this is the Big Picture, A conversation show about America.

[Amy Poehler]

A brave new world.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is America. Chris Ryan is here today for a State of the Union address. On this episode, we will talk about Captain Brave New World. It's a new film from Marvel. Amanda, are you excited about this conversation?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I am thrilled to bring people behind the scenes. We decided to do this episode about 10 minutes ago. So we have seen the film. We saw it together.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We had a lovely dinner beforehand. I was in a great mood.

[Sean Fennessy]

Where did we eat?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wood Ranch.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wood Ranch?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, the Burbank Wood Ranch. You had ribs? I did. I love ribs.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

We had the classic ribs, chicken pulled pork, triumvirate.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But we did not get to have dessert because there was a misunderstanding about what time the screening started. That's okay. We got there, we got our seats, we saw the film. So in a way, I'm as prepared as I need to be.

[Amy Poehler]

And I thought maybe this would be a good idea to do kind of impromptu like this. Because this is a film that kind of, like, it starts to escape the consciousness even as the Stinger is coming to a close. So I wanted to talk about it as quick, as close to the actual experience as possible.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think your instincts were right. This is the 35th film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It comes to us from Julius Ona. It is written by roughly 19 people.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes. Including Malcolm Spellman, who worked on Falcon and the Winter Soldier, the TV series that had previously featured Sam Wilson.

[Sean Fennessy]

So thank you for bringing that up. Sam Wilson, of course, has taken up the mantle of Captain America. You asked me during the film, when did that happen? I believe it was officially at the end of Avengers Endgame, when Steve Rogers went back into the past to be with his beloved Hayley Atwell. And to that I say, who among us would not travel back in time to be with Hayley Atwell?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I completely agree with you. That was also one of the scenes with, like, the Captain America cute butt jokes, so. Right, sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. That was a moment.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's how you chart time in the mcu.

[Amy Poehler]

Dancing as an old man. And he has a cute butt.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There's, like, a recurring thing in it about him having a cute butt. They made a couple jokes about it. It's fine. Like, you know, I like humor, too. I asked you before. And the movie started.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did ask you some questions during the film, and we can get into why I needed to ask those questions later.

[Sean Fennessy]

There are great many reasons why, but.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't want people, like, in my mentions being like, how dare you? I want. I asked you to set the scene for me. And I asked you, when did he become Captain America? And I also asked you whether we would get to see him become Captain America in any meaningful way. Whether there was a ceremony, some sort of medallion like the DJs. And, you know, I just want to say I think that that was a missed opportunity.

[Sean Fennessy]

He just sort of started doing it in this television series. Yes. Which aired, I think, in 2021. It was the second series that aired in the Marvel TV experiment. After WandaVision.

[Amy Poehler]

After WandaVision. Loki was right around this, too.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. So they were roughly around the same time. Maybe it was third. And that show is relevant to this conversation for a variety of reasons. One of the challenges of this movie is that it's not so much an evolution of the Marvel story, but as a series of loose ends being tied up around a lot of other older Marvel stories, not just the 2021 TV show. Not just, say, the recent film Eternals, which came out three years ago. But also significantly and almost primarily the 2008 movie the Incredible Hulk, directed by Louis Leterrier and starring Edward Norton and William Hurt. Now, neither of those men portray characters currently in the MCU that still exist. In fact, one of those men is no longer alive as actors.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes, but the Hulk is still in the mcu. And Thunderbolt Ross is still in the mcu.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. So we've got a movie that is speaking directly to plot developments from a movie that came out 17 years ago.

[Amy Poehler]

And has been largely ignored, like pre Tony Stark canon.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, and it is still a part of the mcu. And that character still matters to the mcu because now Mark Ruffalo of course, plays the Incredible Hulk. But Captain Brave New World. Well, let's just. We'll have it out right here. What did you think of the movie?

[Amy Poehler]

Chris Ryan I went into this as a pretty open mind, honestly, and like I was kind of willing to be surprised. I really enjoyed the last trailer and I thought this was one of the worst superhero movies I've ever seen. Probably because it's not a superhero movie at all. It's trying to be a political thriller and like an espionage thriller. But I thought this was brutal and it was like kind of. I couldn't tell if it was a catastrophe that had been stitched back together or perhaps like what they really want to be making right now, which is directorless slop that they assemble and drawback breads to previous things that they need to do or whatever. I thought maybe this would be a really cool new step for them or an exciting movie. And instead it seems like it's basically like a tax write off for a bunch of other properties that they needed to get off their books.

[Sean Fennessy]

Amanda, what did you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

This sucked straight up. And I, I know everyone expects me to say that, but I also went in with an open heart in the sense of we got to go out to dinner on a weeknight and Harrison Ford was in this film. And typically I have liked the Captain America movies more out of the Marvel firmament, I suppose, but I thought it made no sense. It was very clearly tying up a bunch of things that I didn't even remember or had never seen. So in terms of having to do your homework before, it was, I don't know if you could have done enough homework to be able to follow what was going on here. But it felt sort of contextless, confusing, obviously, like poorly executed, I thought. I mean, this, this CGI is like inexcusable, I think. And I also thought, like the fight scenes were pretty lame, if only just because I spent all my time being like, well, that's not Anthony Mackie, and that's not Anthony Makney. You could see the cuts. You could see the doubles. I thought that the. I need exposition in movies like this at, like, at some point, you know, you would like it to be deftly or entertainingly done, but, like, I. I guess I kind of need to know what's going on. But it was all boring exposition that still somehow did not explain to me what was going on. I didn't even really understand what it was trying to communicate in terms of, like, morals or ideas about superheroes. America. Good Evil, Natural Resources. Yeah. You know, or hostages. And I didn't have a good time.

[Sean Fennessy]

This movie is quite poor. It is really one of the. One of the poorest in the history of the MCU. It's been a. Been quite a backslide since 2019 into, I think, not just a vague cultural irrelevance because some of these movies still do make money, but a very overt discomfort with decisions that were made in the aftermath of Endgame, and then an attempt to kind of, like, unwind and rewind and refocus and reset this movie more than any other movie in the last five years. There was a lot of public awareness of reshoots, of restructuring, of recastings, of ripping it up and starting again. And even your common Marvel movie fan had a lot of awareness of this stuff going in. For example, Giancarlo Esposito plays one of the heavies, sort of like the false flag heavy, like kind of a fake out of who we think the villain of the movie is going to be. He plays a character named Sidewinder who's in the Serpent Society. They shot the whole movie and then decided to add him to the movie. And so they just reshot and re edited significant parts of the movie to add this character to the movie who's, like, critically important to the. Whatever the story is in terms of, like, setting up who the actual villain of the story is and all this other stuff. So you can see every stitch throughout the movie. You can feel every awkward cut. All that exposition you're talking about, the.

[Amy Poehler]

Way he vanishes in the middle of the second act. And they're like, you're done now.

[Sean Fennessy]

The fact that he's barely in a frame with Anthony Mackie throughout the whole.

[Amy Poehler]

Movie, but the fact that, like, the end of his shooting schedule, like, clearly coincided with, like, what. What they could get is what you see on screen, right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

They can't have him be a part of the third act because he simply was not there. It was not available.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. And it's a tricky thing. Right. Obviously, I thought that Falcon and Winter Soldier was a mess, but actually was making an earnest effort to be about something. I thought it really fumbled the bag in its finale. It's like a really, really misbegotten finale. And this felt like an extension of the finale where it was sort of like, you know, that show made an effort, especially in the first two episodes, to really show San's life, like, show his sister, show where he comes from. I think he's from Louisiana. Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

He's got, like, the fishing boat that he's been in.

[Sean Fennessy]

It was like a character piece inside of a story about kind of power and the way that the Avengers could or could not reintegrate into a common soc. You know, it wasn't high art, but.

[Amy Poehler]

At least was trying to be some cap thing with Carl Unley's, which gets brought up again in this film.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. So the Isaiah Bradley character, who is a super soldier serum taker, who then is wrongfully imprisoned and then is introduced in the story in that TV show. The movie, because it knows most people didn't watch the TV show, basically needs to, like, re explain who he is by having, for example, in this movie, Danny Ramirez, who is the new Falcon, be introduced to Isaiah Bradley and then say, wait, you are this guy who did this thing and was wrongfully imprisoned for 30 years. And so, like, when you're watching the movie, whether you've seen the TV show or not, you know that this is writing that is not even meant to, like, accomplish anything other than to fill in the gaps for people who don't know about the gaps.

[Amy Poehler]

I was telling her last night, like, there was an M1 article a little while ago about Netflix movies and about how Netflix kind of pushes writers sometimes to write their expository dialogue as if somebody is not actually looking at the screen. So I felt like that was very, very present in this film, where you would be told where they were going. They would arrive someone. You would see a sign on the screen that says they've arrived where they are going. And then they would be like, here we are at Camp Echo. And I was like, I know. I was listening two minutes ago. Like, do you think that, like, how adults. Do you think your audience is. That they wouldn't be able to sustain that? And then Amanda was made. The right point was like, that's probably because they're stitching everything together. From different shoots and from different storylines that they're like. We have to, like, kind of even create a through line for ourselves as we're making this film.

[Sean Fennessy]

And whether it's intentional or not, even though we're close movie watchers, in theory, like, it feels very insulting when you're watching the movie to watch a character say a series of consecutive sentences that they never would. The way that the President, portrayed by Harrison Ford in this movie talks is not how the President would talk. We know that. That's not how the President would talk. Where he would have to over enunciate something to what is essentially a vigilante hero who has made his way into the White House. Why would you give that person any information whatsoever? So the writing in this movie is absolutely dreadful. And some of it is a function of that stitching, and some of it is just really bad. The performances are okay.

[Amy Poehler]

No, they're not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They're not. They're really mad.

[Amy Poehler]

They're like. They're like. Danny Ramirez and Harrison Ford are, like, charming enough.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I. Yeah, they have, like, charisma. And Danny Ramirez is given, like, exposition duty and also, like, jokey Robin duties.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's very Robin in this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, he's, like, incredibly likable.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's charismatic as an actor, for sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But, like, he has. He has literally nothing to do.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Anthony Mackie, not an actor I've really ever loved, but I think he played.

[Amy Poehler]

This part for, like, a long time.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. And the whole movie itself, I. You know, one of the themes of the movie is living up to expectations. You know, stepping in for somebody. You know, like, when you go on leave, cr's gotta sit in that chair.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And he's. The whole time. Never again.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We don't have to worry about that anymore.

[Sean Fennessy]

But in that time when he did, you know, when you sat in for conclave, which some would say you were born to do, but nevertheless, people were thinking, what's Amanda thinking about Conclave? What does she think? What does she. We'll never know.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, we'll never know. Back in time. Slow dancing with her bow.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's right. So Steve Rogers was laid up in bed and Sam had to step up and fill in.

[Amy Poehler]

And how'd you do Falcon and the Papal Conclave? I think I did okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

You did great. Sam's pretty hung up on the show.

[Amy Poehler]

I think I did a deep Disney TV series version of that.

[Sean Fennessy]

And Chris Evans is a complicated movie star who's been catching a lot of strays here in recent times, but he was A darn good Captain America. He was very, very good in what is actually a very boring character. And he brought something, I think, very hard to describe, but meaningful. And it's cool that the movie knows that and is trying to address that. But Anthony Mackie never quite rises to it and the writing really doesn't serve him well.

[Amy Poehler]

There's a couple of things in watching this film that I was so. I know that like, it would be easy to come here and be like, fuck this movie. And so I was really, really, really trying to like, go into it and try and understand some of the choices that got made. And the best excuse I can make for the way the film looks and the way that the action sequences play out is that they are essentially trying to move away from any kind of like, cinematic execution of these scenes and these set pieces and move into an almost entirely like, replica of the comic book experience. Now, anybody who reads comic books know that different artists have different, like light schemes and work with shadow and have different conceptions of the characters and show them in these different ways. And this is the flattest possible way it's lit in this overhead, like, you know, sort of fluorescence. All the furniture is kind of like set furniture that they have brought in from TV studio, the next next door. When you're looking at like Harrison Ford on a destroyer in the war room in the lighting in the background is like, it's like a 8th grade play version of like how you would kind of set decorate that and it's kind of start sagging because you're like, you are Disney and Marvel. Like, presumably you could actually rent out an actual destroyer and shoot this on there, but it all looks so fake to a way that you're just like. You become so numb to it after a while. Like there's no excitement in exciting scenes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did you get that?

[Sean Fennessy]

No. I think there's two, two things that you hit on that I think are important. One, the scenes that are not fight scenes. Compare those scenes to the non fight scenes in Black Panther. Look at how Black Panther is shot. Look at the way that images are framed. Look at the angle that he chooses to shoot actors from. Look at the way that he communicates villainy or heroism or ambiguity in a character or confusion. You might not like Black Panther because it has a lot of CGI fighting at the end and you find that incoherent. But as a director, there's a lot of choices being made in a movie like this. It does feel like everybody was like, okay, we got four hours to get this in the easiest way possible. Let's just get it done. Yes, exactly. We gotta make sure that we. Harrison Ford has to leave at 4. So before he leaves to go have some tea and sit on his porch, let's get what we need from him. And I gotta say, like, he's trying in this movie. He's trying to give a performance. He's way too old to be the president and to be a person who.

[Amy Poehler]

Is like Sleepy Harris.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Unfortunately not. I know it's upsetting.

[Sean Fennessy]

The text is true. But it is true.

[Amy Poehler]

Because Sleepy Thunderbolt.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's not quite Bidenesque, but there is just something strange where even in his line deliveries, he's trying to conjure the Air Force One steeliness. And he can't quite get there anymore. And of course, it happens to all of it. It's coming for us all. I got no beef with Harrison Ford. I love the man. He's given me so much as a movie fan. But even somebody as gifted as him at making movies like this better than they have any right to be. And using Clear and Present Danger and Patriot Games as clear models for what this movie wants to be or at least wants to remind you of and not being able to get it going. Setting aside all of the Red Hulk stuff which we can get into momentarily, I walked away from the movie thinking, why the hell did Harrison Ford do this? Why does he. I know money is nice, and I know relevance is something that movie stars get addicted to and there's something fun about being part of a big project, but just seemed like a huge waste of his time. We've only got, like, two more Harrison Ford movies left here and this is one of them. And that just sucks.

[Amy Poehler]

I think he's just in a real, like, I like to work mode.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

Like, he's made another season of 1923.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, I mean, and it does seem like he has a lot of control. Right? So it, like, he can leave at 4, you know, and he's not gonna be there at 402 because they didn't get like the. The dogwoods or the cherry blossoms, you know, just so planes are expensive, you know? So, I mean, I know that you did the money. You waved away the money thing. But, like, aviation is an expensive hobby.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know, but, I mean, this is one of the five most successful actors in Hollywood for 30 consecutive years. Like, how much? I don't know. I'm not going to. I'm not going to pocket watch Harrison Ford.

[Amy Poehler]

I think guys get to, like, this is, like, why Does Ridley Scott make two movies a year? I think because they think if they stop, like something's going to happen.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I just. My thing is just like, why this?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Why of all the things, why this?

[Amy Poehler]

Well, that's an indictment on Hollywood then, like that there's not more material out there for these people to choose from and be like, oh, I'd like to make this. Like, I'll be a judge in this, in this movie rather than I'm Thunderbolt Ross and I have a red Hulk inside of me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Invariably I can't do one of these MCU episodes without talking about what they're trying to get over the line, story wise in some detail while driving Amanda either to boredom or insanity. But this movie is trying to do a bunch of things that will be consequential in some way, even though I.

[Amy Poehler]

Think it was more accounting for everything that had happened before. So there's like lip service paid to the snap. There's lip service paid to Eternals, the Hulk, obviously. There's secret invasion stuff. There's Falcon and Winter Soldier. It's like wrapping up a lot of the street level Marvel stuff that they've kind of set in motion that I think they are now going to get rid of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What was the finale of Falcon and Winter Soldier that you thought was.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't want to misremember exactly what happened, but he like, the same way that this movie has this very uncomfortable relationship to like whether torture methodology in political practice is like right or not right. It similarly had a sort of like, ultimately we need to be on the side of the federal government. Like we may stand in the face of power, but power also resonates like it's very. You remember what I'm talking about.

[Amy Poehler]

Just like a lot of stuff with Wyatt Russell's character in the show that like kind of goes up and down and then seems to have been like excised but put back in. I mean there's ideas that you see in this movie about whether or not these black men feel like properly recognized by the government they're serving in. That kind of get started in Falcon and His Soldier and are among the like more interesting ideas that they have actually tried to, to reckon with. And there's just something kind of staggering about it coming out now as like the American military and the federal government obviously go through the changes it's going through where you're like, wow. Like it's like things have. We have come so we've gone so low in so little amount of time.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right. This is Also a movie that. It's like, we need to examine American politics, relationship to the military state, but also we're going to do so by having a guy with, like, future technology blasting rockets through the sky all day long to be the good guy. You know, it's like, it's all very unexamined. You know, it's like, not so good to have, you know, the B1 bomber or fighter jets. But if you're a guy who has Wakandan technology that can blow things up, that's cool. Like, it doesn't. It doesn't really have a point of view.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The guy who has Wakandan technology who can blow things up is Captain America. Captain America who used to be Falcon.

[Sean Fennessy]

Correct. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the suit that made him Falcon was made of vibranium, which is the Wakandan thing.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

But that's not what's inside of the celestial island.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. That's the new adamantium, plutonium or whatever.

[Sean Fennessy]

We are fully spoiling now, the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We didn't already fully spoil.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not really.

[Amy Poehler]

Is that a big reveal?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, to me, the biggest reveal, or at least the most. Like that little tingly thing I get where I'm like, okay, at least they gave me this feeling I had, was in the first act of the movie, it's revealed that the celestial that emerged from the Earth at the end of Eternals, which was largely unremarked upon in all other Marvel movies, despite it being a world historical event, inside of it, they have discovered a material and natural resource called adamantium. You were confused when you saw this. Chris and I both very excitedly turned to you and said, that's what's inside of Wolverine. You know, that's the precious metal that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

In Chris's defense, that. No, that was like. That was. Chris had the very nice, like, hey, that's daredevil moment that this is normally for you of. Hey, Wolverine's claws are made of adamantium. Because you knew I wouldn't know that.

[Amy Poehler]

Or his bones. I can't remember his.

[Sean Fennessy]

His. His skeleton, his exoskeleton, and his claws.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So he was Wolverine constructed out of adamantium.

[Amy Poehler]

He was made into, like, a kind of super soldier by Striker General Stryker.

[Sean Fennessy]

Who was portrayed famously in the Wolverine films by Brian Cox of Succession. But.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So adamantium was added to him. Yes, presumably from the celestial islands bones were fused with. Yeah, yeah. But where'd they get the adamantium? Was it, like, natural occurring?

[Amy Poehler]

Did you know that it was.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know, these original origins. There's some retconning going on here. This is an X Men dog whistle. This whole thing is like, guess what, guys? We got X Men. And it's coming and it's. So sit tight for another three phases until we give you X Men.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They said that with the fat head. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

When Beast was introduced at the end of Quantumania, that was also an X Men dog whistle. There have been a number of these over the years.

[Amy Poehler]

So full spoilers now for Brave New World.

[Sean Fennessy]

Full spoilers.

[Amy Poehler]

Spoiler warning. When Tim Blake Nelson at the end of the film is like, I've looked at the statistical probabilities and there are other universes. That is the other realities that will eventually come into play in the next couple of dozen movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

He just refers to them as the others. But the expectation there is that the.

[Amy Poehler]

Others are like the Fantastic Four. They're in a different timeline than everything else.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, and so when we watched.

[Amy Poehler]

This credit sequence, which came after nine minutes of credits.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And we were schooled it. I wasn't allowed to make sure my children were okay on my phone during that time.

[Amy Poehler]

I think that's what the Disney person was saying to you. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. They just. He said some things, and then you guys both muttered like, secret Wars.

[Sean Fennessy]

Secret Wars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. And so the Secret wars are all like, the heroes everyone is fighting all together.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'll give you a little bit of context.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is the second to last movie in Phase five.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Phase five has been tough sledding.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

The next movie is Thunderbolts, and then Phase five is over.

[Amy Poehler]

Thunderbolts, Another film that has been reshot and rewritten. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

How you feeling about Thunderbolts today, big guy?

[Amy Poehler]

I'm pro Thunderlist.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know. I heard.

[Amy Poehler]

I listened to the podcast.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm where I was the other day when we recorded, which is. I think it looks fine. It looks cool. My expectations were really low for this movie. They're higher for Thunderbolts, but to me, they're kind of like closing all business on this era. And now in Phase Six, which starts in July with the Fantastic Four movie. These are the movies that are in phase six. Fantastic Four, Doomsday, in which Robert Downey Jr. Returns as Doctor Doom, Spider Man 4, and Secret wars, which is one of the biggest crossover event Marvel stories ever told. I think it was originally in the 80s, redone by Hickman, and then redone in the 2010s. Those are big moves. All of those movies have to make a billion dollars. They all are huge movies with huge expectations. The expectations on the fourth Captain America movie On thunderbolts. These are smaller things. It's almost like they're trying to get out all of the mistakes that they made now so that they can get to the real stuff. So the reason to see this movie, if you're an idiot like me or just a huge fan of these movies, is what are the little pellets that they've left on the ground for us?

[Amy Poehler]

Which is.

[Sean Fennessy]

Adamantium is one of them, which is.

[Amy Poehler]

A different thing than he would have said six years ago when it would be. Well, another reason to see this movie is that it might at least make gestures towards a kind of film that we like. It might be a political thriller. It might be, you know, like a sort of interstellar comedy. It might be something, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

And now the first Captain America movie is a Gary Cooper war movie.

[Amy Poehler]

And they have kind of, like, now arrived at, like, a flat, slop exposition dump. So I think this just puts a tremendous amount of pressure on Fantastic Four being good. And I think it'll do, really. I think it'll make a billion dollars or whatever. I think it'll be really big. I think people want to like these things. But this was like, we are truly in the. Like, it's closing time. The lights have gone on. The overhead lights are on, and we are like, oh, I'm still at the.

[Sean Fennessy]

And that's why when you said that, everybody's, like, more optimistic. I was pushing back on that a little bit because I knew this was going to be bad. I don't think I thought it was going to be this bad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But I had a really good feeling it wasn't going to work. And it's a coin flip on thunderbolts. It might stink. We really don't know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right, right, right.

[Sean Fennessy]

If they mess up the next five, it's kind of over. Like, it's over. And it doesn't mean that they. Those movies won't still exist, but it just means that they take on a much smaller mindshare. And then I think Hollywood is going to freak out because they've been able to depend upon these movies so deeply. I mean, Superman's part of this conversation.

[Amy Poehler]

They still might be able to depend on this. It still might make $90 million.

[Sean Fennessy]

I might. I. You know, I could be wrong, and I was wrong with Wolverine and a Deadpool and Wolverine. But, like, doesn't this feel like a movie that's gonna have a huge opening weekend and then big drop the second weekend? Because the word of mouths can be pretty bad. Like, even the people who love these movies I've never heard more groaning walking out of a comic book movie than I did last night.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, the theater was silent.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. And people were wearing, like, Magneto T.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Shirts, cheering, no laughter. No anything.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's not a good sign.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Amy Poehler]

There was a little bit of recognition when Sebastian Stan came on screen.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, yeah. I mean, that. That is the one thing that Thunderbolts has going for it is that, like, the whole movie lit up when he filmed. He did his two hours or however long it took for him to make that one.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I think his. He's always been a fan favorite, Bucky, but I think particularly this confirmation of him as a person who has entered a different stage of Hollywood success, being Academy Award nominated, being so critically acclaimed in the last few years. I think it's huge for Marvel to be associated with an actor like that, and they helped build him up to become an even more famous person. But I think he also just represents, like, an energy that people miss in the movies. And that scene, which I'm sure was a rewrite and I'm sure, like, it felt like they helicoptered him in at the last minute. And frankly, is absolutely insane because he's either a congressman or running for Congress.

[Amy Poehler]

He's running for Congress.

[Sean Fennessy]

And he's a former Soviet asset assassin.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This is literally. So we walked out of the theater and you just kept yelling, he is a Soviet asset.

[Amy Poehler]

You went full Mueller shoe. I mean, it's like, this is Russian propaganda, but, like, this man killed world.

[Sean Fennessy]

Leaders and he is in Congress. Well, what state does he represent?

[Amy Poehler]

Florida.

[Amanda Dobbins]

When? Which one? Who did he. When did that happen?

[Amy Poehler]

He didn't. He killed.

[Sean Fennessy]

Which leaders?

[Amanda Dobbins]

T'Challa. Which movie?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh. Oops. Yeah. That's not good.

[Sean Fennessy]

The fucking King of Wakanda.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, you don't want to do that.

[Sean Fennessy]

You don't want that.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. You don't sleep at night if you do that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did he actually do that or did Crossbones do that? Your boy Frank Gorilla.

[Amy Poehler]

He gets blamed for it. I haven't seen. I can't remember last time I watched Winter Soldiers.

[Sean Fennessy]

Where are you at on gorilla these days? You feeling good?

[Amy Poehler]

What was he just werewolves.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did you watch that?

[Amy Poehler]

I didn't.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. That one. Amanda. Werewolves.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Amy Poehler]

There's something else I wanted to talk about.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The president at the end of this movie.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, we don't know.

[Sean Fennessy]

We don't know.

[Amy Poehler]

We don't know.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's not Harrison Ford because. And now is the time to speak of Red Hulk. He. After 1 hour and 52 minutes. Emerges as Red Hulk. Even though they've been promoting the shit out of this movie being a Red Hulk movie, they made me wait a lot longer to see that.

[Amy Poehler]

He almost becomes Red Hulk on the boat.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He does it a couple times. He bangs the fist like a few times.

[Sean Fennessy]

They tease it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's like Kendrick at the super bowl, but not good.

[Amy Poehler]

Not like us. Comes right up to the edge. The edges.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Well, we were discussing this with a movie like companion in terms of giving away a lot in the trailers to get. Because the studios are nervous that people aren't gonna show up and they were nervous about this movie and they want people to come. You got Harrison Ford, you got him to sign up to be Red Hulk. One, do you think it was a good idea that they did that? They put that at the center of the campaign of the movie. And two, did you think any of that stuff worked?

[Amy Poehler]

I think that they didn't have a choice because I don't think anyone really is tracking what the Falcon to Captain America plot is. I don't think that Falcon and Winter Soldier was a warmly received show. I think they had some things to like, but I don't think anybody's like, ah, of course I remember exactly what happened. So they needed some sort of world destroying thing in the movie that was like, here's why you come. These movies are supposed to be super, super, you know, like you're supposed to see something that you would not ordinarily see. I don't know if it makes a difference that he. I think it's annoying that it really only happens the last 20 minutes of the movie. But it's. It's not like I wanted to see Harrison Ford transformed three more times.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I will say there was a moment maybe about an hour in or 45 minutes in. I don't know. I mean, it was immediately apparent that this movie just did not work.

[Sean Fennessy]

But I agree. Within the first scene.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, it's a 10 minute exposition dump about what happened in the Hulk.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. And then I think like I turned to him and I was just like, who wrote this? And you were like 45 people. And I was like, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But like, I think it's five story by credits and three screenplay credits.

[Amy Poehler]

I think it's like four or five screenplay credits.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Anyway, at some point before, like my mood really got away from me, I was like, well, this stinks. But like, at some point Harrison Ford will be Red Hulk. And like, maybe I'll. Maybe that'll be fun, you know, like, maybe I'll like that. I think I even thought, like, oh, maybe they, like, saved all the CGI money for Red Hulk. They did not. They. They did not budget anything in terms of energy, time, or resources to making that good.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And that was a real bummer.

[Sean Fennessy]

I still have a part of my lizard brain that likes watching how two characters with different powers fight. Like, I don't. That's. I'm. I was. I was nine years old once, and I thought that was cool to think about.

[Amy Poehler]

But did you notice that, like, he has as much ease and. Or difficulty fighting Red Hulk as he pretty much does red shirts that he comes across over the course of the movie?

[Sean Fennessy]

It's true. And it's historically a problem with all action movies. Yeah. You know, Arnold Schwarzenegger had this issue, too, where he would be, like, having trouble dispatching a normal man, but then, like, dominating, you know, someone who is twice his size. But in this case, it's particularly egregious. I think part of that could be like, well, that's kind of the charm of Sam, is that Sam is not superpowered.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. He talks about not taking the super serum.

[Sean Fennessy]

He doesn't take the super serum. He's a guy, which I think makes him kind of a. He's a good hero.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But I don't.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not a good movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't even think that they effectively communicated, like, his powers visually or even, like, how he fights because. Or what his tools are. I mean, you know, Wakanda, he's got wings. They, like, he can throw the shield. He can do other things. But the. The way that they. The way that they're framing the Hulk vs. Sam, and some of that is, like, size discrepancy. Plus, you got, like, a CGI White House in there. So, you know, there's, like, perspectives. Tough. Yeah. But you just don't see him, like, I don't even know how he was fighting. I mean, I guess he was, like, throwing the shield or, like, flying around. But you don't. To your point about, like, I like seeing people with different powers fight. I didn't really feel like I saw them fighting.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I think it was. Again, I don't. I really don't have to spend time on this. I'm sorry, but it's more just like, what were the ways in which Sam determined Red Hulk's weaknesses? That's like reading. That's what reading comic books are like.

[Amy Poehler]

You know, because, like, he just cuts him with his cape a bunch, and then he finally gets him to remember the cherry blossoms and Walking with Betty.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which are so ugly. The cherry blossoms, fake cherry blossoms.

[Sean Fennessy]

The ones at the end are deeply fake.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was just really upset.

[Sean Fennessy]

I do like a cherry blossom.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I love a cherry blossom.

[Sean Fennessy]

And even by the way, like that writing is terrible.

[Amanda Dobbins]

A real life fake, like a practical fake cherry blossom. Like made of like silk or you know, materials or whatever. Like can be very beautiful. But the CGI ones. Two thumbs down. Huddle up. It's me, Angel Reese. You can't beat the post game burger and fries, right? Know what else you can't beat? The Angel Reese Special. Let's break it down. My favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese, crispy bacon, pickles, onions and a sesame seed bun, of course. And don't forget the fries and the drink. It's gonna be a high C for me. Sound good? All you have to do to get it is beat me in a one on one. I'm just playing get the Angel Reese special at McDonald's now. Ba da ba ba ba.

[Amy Poehler]

I participate in restaurants for a limited time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Amy Poehler]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Amy Poehler]

I tried to go back through my head and be like, what did I like about this movie? Like, where was some stuff that was cool? Julius Ona, who I really don't know what to say about him as a filmmaker because his last two movies I think are this and the Cloverfield Paradox.

[Sean Fennessy]

Which I remember he made one in between called Loose, which is a very strange and confrontational drama about race.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

That I liked, but I'm not sure was fully thought through. Do you remember this movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I do remember it. I did not like it. I think what I remembered is that.

[Amy Poehler]

Octavia Spencer's in there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Octavia Spencer. And It's Calvin Harrison Jr. It is who I think is. Doesn't usually work for me. The performances. Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Tim Roth and. And Naomi Watts play the adoptive parents. Kelvin Harrison Jr. That's right. And it's unclear if he is being singled out because he's a young black man with white parents or if he actually is up to trouble. Basically. And the movie is a bit strange. I think it's an adaptation of a novel, but it's kind of like the Cloverfield Paradox. I'm like, I don't. What does this tell you about point of view?

[Amy Poehler]

Cloverfield paradox also got taken away from me at a certain point. I only remember that because it was the night the Eagles won the Super Bowl. So when Cloverfield paradox came out.

[Sean Fennessy]

Remember, at your house. At your old house.

[Amy Poehler]

So I do think that some of the stuff that's like, in quote unquote DC in the beginning of the movie with Isaiah Bradley's Manchurian Candidate moment and all that stuff with like the song and the flashing phones and the assassins is cool and sort of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But even there, it's like.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, it's not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It takes them literally an hour and a half for someone to be like, it's mind control. Which is like, literally. That is a direct quote.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're so right. It's horrendous.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I heard the song the first time. Like, I've seen a movie before.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. And I guess in a. In a different world, like, Ross's relationship to the leader. Samuel Stern's. Right. Tim Blake Nelson's character and him being like, I was gonna die. I needed to stay alive so that I could be forgiven by my daughter. But then I double crossed this guy and now he's feeding me poison and making me into the red Hulk. It's kind of cool.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's not. It's really not well done.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's really not the idea, though, of.

[Amy Poehler]

Like a president being beholden to a shadow.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think there's a lot of on paper stuff, as I said, that, like, we're doing clear and present danger with the Hulk and a guy who can fly is for me. I'm like, I would love to see that.

[Amy Poehler]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

They didn't make that movie. You know, they made a movie where Harrison Ford is the President and barks at people, but it doesn't really have any of that. And a lot of it goes to some of that physical production stuff that doesn't work. A lot of it goes to the fact that the mind control one in particular, like, the whole movie theater groaned when that happened. People were just like, are you serious?

[Amy Poehler]

I'm deeply fascinated by whether or not because a lot of these shows suffer from the same kind of like, this feels like it was reshot or this feels like they had to like, stitch this together. We are pretty much since the end of the Avengers run in this stretch of Marvel product that kind of is substandard professionally or it falls short of ready to be released kind of standards. And I'm not like, you know, if this you could get into, like, are we sure Kevin Feige is the right person to be relative to the bar? Why can't they just like make it two hour movie? Like, I don't understand why that's so hard. And I don't understand why it's payback.

[Sean Fennessy]

For all the success that came on the first wave. The. The genius of the first 20 movies is that they somehow created this Jenga tower of movie storytelling which had never been done before, where all the pieces fit. And it culminated in the. One of the biggest movie going experiences ever in the Infinity War and Endgame thing, which I was like, they did it, man. This is super cool that they did this. And now they have to pay the piper, which is that every story that they do now has to be interconnected and has to make sense. And it's not feasible when they've gotten so big with all of the TV shows and all of the movies and they won't let a movie stand alone because the audiences won't accept that anymore. They will not accept.

[Amy Poehler]

But it's going all the way the other way. Where I feel like audiences are like the sort of. It's hard to describe the atmosphere in that movie theater as people sat through all those credits and like the page after page after page of VFX artists. Salute to you guys. Sorry, like, I'm not trying to be disparaging. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're just like, I can't believe. I'm just so trained that I have to sit here and wait for this cut scene. And then the stinger comes and it sucks so bad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

And it's almost like you guys. For waiting. Like you guys felt that way a few times. Now 10 minutes to see Anthony Mackey talk to Tim Blake Nelson about an unexplicit. You know, at least like when. When it happens in Dr. Strange, like Charlize Theron shows up and.

[Sean Fennessy]

You'Re like, God damn, Harry Styles showed up once. And we were like, all right, well, that was amusing at least. And okay, that. That brings me to my next point of discussion because this came up immediately after the movie ended, which is that you guys started talking about how Madame Web was better or at least you liked it more.

[Amy Poehler]

I liked the experience of seeing Madame Web more than watching Brave New World.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, last year was a really tough year for comic book movies. There were three different Sony related Marvel stories, Spider man related Marvel stories, or all of which were very bad. And there was Deadpool and Wolverine, which was a huge hit. And the conversation that we were having was, is it better for a movie to be awful while accidentally amusing like Madame Web and to a lesser extent, Kraven the Hunter in the Venom movies? Or to just passively move the ball forward but be actively unfun to watch? Like, I was like, when is this going to end? When I was watching Brave New World. Brave New World. So it did give you adamantium. It did clarify the Eternals thing, which was completely bizarre. It did, I guess, close the book on Incredible Hulk. It does.

[Amanda Dobbins]

How did it do that? Why did I ask that?

[Sean Fennessy]

By making it clear that Thaddeus Ross is imprisoned, but he has closed the emotional loop with his daughter. And they did give us a Red Hulk moment, which even if it didn't come off that well, is something that is like comic book lore and is exciting. And then I think also doesn't explicitly state, but makes it clear that Thunderbolts is an offshoot of a lot of the vision that Ross had as a leader because he brings to Mackie. I want to restart the Avengers. And that. That's gonna. That's clearly what's gonna happen in Thunderbolt is they're going to restart the Avengers with all of these vigilantes, presumably Sebastian Squad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So the Thunderbolts become the new Avengers.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, but they're going to seem really b team up against Fantastic Four and eventually X Men and all the other characters who are going to come in.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Didn't you guys say on the watch at some point that they're going to then redo all the timelines so that the original Avengers can come back?

[Amy Poehler]

I think they'll come back in different. I mean, obviously, like, Downey's playing Doom, but I think they will bring Chris Evans back in some way because it's the same thing that happens in Deadpool and Wolverine, where it's like, oh, here's all these different portals of reality that you can just have a constant kind of cavalcade of guest stars.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. So also say, like, they did a bunch of stuff that got you thinking about the future, which I guess is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which is cool for you. I don't. I.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's not even cool for me anymore, is what I'm saying. Like, it's not being cool for me five years ago.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But to your question of is it better to be like a bad but sometimes enjoyable movie that doesn't move the project forward versus, quote unquote, moving the project forward but not having any fun, I wholeheartedly vote for Madame Web, you know, because at least you get Dakota. Yeah. And like, there's not a Johnson being there was dead.

[Amy Poehler]

Not even anything weird in this movie or, like, personal at all.

[Sean Fennessy]

Nothing personal. I mean, there's plenty of weird. Just the character of Leader is such a weird character where it's like timid.

[Amy Poehler]

But they didn't even like, lean into that. They almost seemed like they were like. Well, we don't really know if we wanted.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's like it's played straight.

[Amy Poehler]

If it had been a James Gunn movie, it would have been like he would have had a fucking huge brain and it would have been insane. It would be funny. And these movies aren't funny anymore. The special effects are not good. The fight scenes are kind of dull. There's really no consequences to 80% of the action set pieces. It's tough, man. I like these movies a lot. I used to like these movies, like a fair amount. And it's just sort of strange. I just. I wonder how long they can hold because when do you lose the essential 40% of your audience? That's like, I don't really understand. I'm just going. Cause they're fun movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, we watched this happen with the TV shows where the TV shows kind of started at a high, right? Where it was WandaVision, Loki, and this show to a lesser extent. And it was like, flawed, maybe a little too long.

[Amy Poehler]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

But well made for the most part. Felt contained, but with consequences. And then slowly but surely they started just like clearly losing anybody who could be described as less than a super fan. And I stopped watching them. And I waited my whole life for this shit to happen. And I just don't care. I don't watch any of the shows anymore at all. And I'm still in like, you know, I'm a more engaged, elevated person. There's a whole rung of people beneath me that is probably somewhere between me and you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, where you probably, if you were not doing the show, would see one out of every five. Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

You would have maybe gotten seen like, Endgame and Infinity War. I think Phoebe, I think my wife saw one.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Eileen came with us to see Endgame.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I think.

[Amy Poehler]

Do you think when saw Logan, it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Was sort of like the same way.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You, Phoebe and I saw Logan.

[Sean Fennessy]

They were kind of Barbenheimer esque. Like, everyone's seeing this. We all. We at least got to go see it thing. But once they start losing everybody below me, the business and now like the in trouble.

[Amy Poehler]

They're in danger of turning off the Midnight Boys, Ringerverse Squad. Because they're like, this looks like shit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, can we talk about that for a second? Like, like, when does. When does the production value and the. Like, when does that break? Because it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought this was the worst yet.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is so noticeably awful. And you know, I have. I. I don't care for like the comic book aesthetic. You know, it's never gonna look like beautiful fine art to me. But it's just they. They can't make it work.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, it's just gone down. I mean, if you go back, of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Course, and it used to at least.

[Amy Poehler]

Be accepted, Iron3 looks like the fucking conformity totally.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the fight scenes at least, like, made sense. And you believe that someone, you know, they were connected to the story. Like, I just. If you're only going to these movies to see Red Hulk and Captain America fight, like, at this point, I don't even think the movies are delivering a positive experience, like a positive, like, fight.

[Amy Poehler]

So it feels like they're kind. It almost feels like there's a story right now about Disney realizes that they may be over overpricing their parks experience. Right? Yeah, like, but they're addicted to finding new ways of squeezing 100, a thousand or whatever out of people by offering like FastPass Lightning Scheme or whatever. And they're just like, we have to keep cranking it. Like, there's no way to come back off of it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

And when you watch this, you're kind of like, did you guys just decide, we're all so stupid, we'll go see it no matter what. So why pay money, right? For someone who's like, I have what I wonder about. This is what I want. I need you to build this set. I don't want to shoot in Hungary, you know, I want to shoot it in.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm just. Let's go. Let's even like the slightly nicer version. It's not even that they're like, well, like, maybe we don't have the ability. Like, maybe. Maybe like technology is not there what it is. No, I like, at the scale 1993, like, it's. I mean, I guess that's true to.

[Amy Poehler]

Me watch Rogue One 10, like 10 years ago. You know what I mean? Like, it's like we can't make it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But they feel that they're trying to do it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I think there's but the amount.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Of time and the amount of stuff.

[Sean Fennessy]

That, like, it's really, really hard. And I don't know at what stage the previs and then having to Close the effects relative to the reshoots because the reshoots are built in. But this was more reshoots than usual, as I understand it. But whether or not the reshoots compounded on them to the point where there was just not enough money left to get the visuals. Just as a point of conversation, the directors of the Phase four movies are Kate Shortland, Destin, Daniel Cretton, Chloe Zhao, Jon Watts, Sam Raimi, Taika Waititi, and Ryan Coogler. Regardless of what you think about those movies, that's a lot of directors with strong visions. Not all of those movies work all the time. But there are images, even CGI oriented images. Like the black and white stuff in the. In Love and Thunder, which is a movie I think is terrible. That stuff looks amazing. You know, there's stuff in the Raimi movie that is really cool. Yeah, this movie has none of that. It doesn't have a shred of vision. It doesn't have a shred of like, wow or pop or daring. Like, there's just nothing in it that makes you go like. Well, at least there was a person who had an idea that was different from what we've seen in the other movies.

[Amy Poehler]

I mean, I think there's shots in this where it looks like. And it's not a shot at him. It's like. I think like Ford's reading off prompter. Like, you know, he's like standing with Mackie here, but he's like not looking in Mackie's face. He's kind of looking over his shoulder. I'm like, I think he's probably.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Or Mackie's not there.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

And he's got to read a bunch of stuff that's like, all right, you guys just gave me this page, so I have to. I have to talk about what I decided to do in Harlem in 2008.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The Hulk, you know, Is Harrison Ford outside at any point?

[Sean Fennessy]

Just when he gives the speech?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, like the Rose Garden. Yeah, but even that is like a set.

[Amy Poehler]

So he's in that. The, the. The Japanese president's like, palace for a second. They're outside in that garden. Yeah, you're right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

No, no, the whole idea is he's got to go into this bunker because there's been an assassin, right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

So. But he's like. He is in the bunker for most of the time in one location, in one set that they built in his trailer outside of 1920. Whatever.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know. I think it's entirely possible that this is a speed bump and that Things recover with maybe not even Fantastic Four specifically, but that the Avengers movies, because.

[Amy Poehler]

There'S the Russos come back.

[Sean Fennessy]

They're so too big to fail. And the Russos know what they're doing with these big, you know, erector set movies where, like, all this stuff has to make sense together. I mean, they've done it. They've literally already done it before, like multiple times. But it's also possible that they don't and that they don't do it fast enough to salvage all this new terrain that they have potentially to ply with the Fox acquisition, which I never would have guessed. I just would never would have guessed we would have gotten to this point. This could be seen as a wild overreaction to one really bad movie or not.

[Amy Poehler]

I think it's the culmination of a kind of like, there was a bunch of different places where you'd be like, well, it was Covid. Well, it was the strikes. Well, it was a changing of the guard. And you gotta, like, build up these new stories. And they've had circumstances come in Johnson majors, like, all these things that have, like, affected how they were maybe trying to build things. But for me, I think it's repeated offenses of they're just being too many cooks in the kitchen or like, they're directors or writers being removed, where you're just like, I. The most nefarious cynical idea I have about this is that they are, like, preparing American audiences to accept AI versions of this stuff. And that they are essentially like, we are gonna build an expectation. You guys have such low expectations of this that we can literally manufacture Sam Wilson stories, like, every three months with, like, digital.

[Sean Fennessy]

You might be right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's right. You read the list of directors from Phase four. All, like, people who know what they're doing. And we talked about, no matter what, you know, there was. There was something to hold on to. And my instinct was like, but does, like, do Disney and Marvel want that? Like, do they actually want any individuality? Did the experiment of hiring cool directors to, like, put their spin on these things, yield what they wanted, or do they just want more, like, gruel to feed out to people who are like, yay, comics?

[Sean Fennessy]

It's so tricky. I mean, I think they just got really high on their own supply of Ragnarok and Black Panther, both being risky choices to go with Taika Waititi and Ryan Coogler, and those movies being two of the best movies that they ever made and both huge hits for B tier characters. So then they were like, we're feeling Ourselves. We know what we're doing. We can do this over and over again. And now all of a sudden, it's Matt Shackman and the Russos and Daniel Destin Cretton coming in. Cause Jon Watts doesn't want to make a fourth Spider man movie. So I think they've definitely tired of that strategy, you know. Okay, let's pull back just a little bit before we close this. Cinematic universes has become something that did not really exist 20 years ago, was not really a way we thought about movies. We did have like sequels to individual movies, but we never had this thing where you'd have multiple characters crossing over and these huge skyscraper esque constructions of storytelling. It's kind of infected and infested lots of different kinds of movies. The Fast and Furious movies.

[Amy Poehler]

Den of Thieves.

[Sean Fennessy]

Den of Thieves is aspiring to a cinematic universe. It is. It is for sure. Is this sustainable? It's obviously not really good. It's not really good for movies. It has been quite destructive for even the idea of sequels. It's kind of fucked up, the idea of a fun sequel. Is it sustainable? Do you think it will continue to exist in the way that it does?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

Just because it's easier to get people's asses in seats with this?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, absolutely. And. And also because I think for people who are making these things, and by the people who are making these things, I mean the corporations and not the filmmakers, like, do they really care at some point whether they're giving you. I mean, I guess they sort of make more money from a movie, but, like, maybe not. And maybe it's easier to just like, you know, make 15 really inexpensive TV show type things that you can watch on your. You know, they. They just want widgets. Right. That they can slot in.

[Sean Fennessy]

Movies are still a thing that when they work, have the highest payout, you.

[Amy Poehler]

Know, I definitely think you're onto something here. I was thinking about this with Ballerina a lot. The John Wick story where you're just like, man, the first Wick is perfect. They never thought they would make a sequel. The sequels are cool. The fourth one is where they've just. But the John Wick. The fourth John Wick movie looks so beautiful compared to these movies. I think I would be way more open to the cinematic universe stuff if they put any emphasis on the cinema part.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that is like the response to the, like, why does it. Maybe we don't have the technology question. It's like you. Do you just have to like kill Keanu Reeves in the process of making the movie to make it look great. And they're not going to do that. Obviously. I find it to be very dispiriting as someone who is in this professional seat. And I used to wonder when I was a kid and I would read interviews with film critics and they would be so despairing. You would watch Siskel and ebert talk about Halloween 5 on their show. And they were miserable. They were like, I can't find fucking believe I've gotta now it's fun to.

[Amy Poehler]

Go back and watch that shit.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know. And that. Because that stuff is. Seems quaint by comparison. But they were so mad at how American movies had been just completely diluted and reduced down to the stupidest fucking thing for a 13 year old. They were so mad. And I was like, these guys don't get it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like I'm 13.

[Sean Fennessy]

They don't get what's fun about going to the movies. And I'm in my 40s and I'm thinking about it and you know what? I'm sure there's a 13 year old who's going to be like Anthony Mackie is my favorite actor. And I love.

[Amy Poehler]

So I love when Bucky came back.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. And I'm not taking that away from any of those kids. But in my position now, I'm like another 10 years of Marvel for me. Really?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I'm sure you feel even worse.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean in some ways I don't feel as bad because for a long time it's been like, do I have fun at one of these things or do I not have fun at one of these things? And most of the time I don't. But every once in a while, you know, they pulled it off and that's just gonna be more of that. So to the 13 year old I would say this isn't even fun, you know. And I guess if you're 13. Yeah, if you're 13 and you have fun like life's. Life's hard. Good job. You, you know, for. But.

[Amy Poehler]

But if you're like mostly interfacing with things as vertical video and you're like, yeah, you know, you know what I mean? Your attention span is like this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Really gets your attention. With the 5 foot 2 Mossad agent in the film.

[Amy Poehler]

What the fuck dog? What happened there? Ruth AKA Seraph, an Israeli born widow. Not widow like in the widow program, the racial voice program.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. In the comics she is a mutant and she is very clearly like an IDF soldier. And in this film sort of retconned into being part of the widow program. I Guess. Yeah, but like, what the hell was that character? Why does that character even in this movie?

[Amy Poehler]

It's like the president seems to have two head security agents. Right?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know.

[Amy Poehler]

Rokemore plays the other one, right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Like, like, but like she was Secret Service, I guess she's like head of the Department of Defense detail. Again, like another thing where it's like, why is this character here?

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No idea.

[Sean Fennessy]

What did it accomplish in the movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. Nothing. I mean, I guess they needed to have a woman in there.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's what it was.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Checking boxes.

[Amy Poehler]

There's all these movies where you meet your, you'd say your mileage may vary. There might just, There might be a person out there is like, this is awesome. And maybe there is a 13 year old out there. It's just like, Sam Wilson is my favorite Avenger ever. And this is so cool. But man, I kind of wonder with this one whether people are going to be like us. Just didn't do anything. Just didn't do anything for me. I, and I like these movies and I want these stories and I, I, I make it my business to know all about what's happening in these things. And they're just like this. Just on a bare bones, like, fundamental, like, was this movie assembled well and put together well and did it look cool and did the action sing? And it's like, no, man, it didn't. I don't even think that's up for debate.

[Sean Fennessy]

Any closing thoughts?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think if you're 25 and you thought this was fun, I want you to ask more for your Life. I think 13's okay, 25, you're still in a phase of discovery in your life, but I think we could discover more.

[Amy Poehler]

I'll be very curious to see whether there's any, like, what's the delta between like a critical reception for this film and the box office? And like, is there just enough of a, of a sustainable engine of like, interest in these movies, no matter what they are to go. And like, these are, regardless of what you say, familiar faces. There is a Hulk, there is Falcon, who's been in these movies. Like, people will probably anticipate Bucky Barnes making an appearance. Like, this is a little bit of old sheet music. So I'll be very curious to see what this makes. But if there's any justice in the world, I don't think it'll make a lot because I'd like them to get better.

[Sean Fennessy]

Deadpool and Wolverine is a movie that I felt very comfortable saying his borderline dangerous to the future of Hollywood storytelling. But as you guys recall, because we saw it together, I laughed the whole time. I was like, this is really funny.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. You both did Stupid Bone Density.

[Amy Poehler]

That was also a film that they let Ryan Reynolds make exactly to his own fashion.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was good. That was the point I was gonna make was I was like, they didn't fuck with that too much. There were certain things that they probably didn't let him do ultimately, but he got to do his thing, and he's mostly gotten to do his thing now. I don't think Ryan Reynolds should get to do his thing all the time. See, 2025 news cycle.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But you know what?

[Sean Fennessy]

I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Honestly, I. He's. I don't.

[Sean Fennessy]

I guess you're Team Ryan.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Team Ryan, basically. Listen, he just yelled at him.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, and.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. I think we need to have some. A little more. A deeper critical lens, what he's up to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. And also is trying to, like, ruin this guy. Well, listen.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, it goes much deeper than that, in my opinion. O.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

But I don't have any evidence to support those claims, so I will just say, okay, examine the text and then think of the subtext.

[Amy Poehler]

Did you examine the text? Did you read a lot of the court filings?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I have read a lot of them, and I wouldn't want to be texting with him, but I just like the basic. I mean, like, the text that Justin Baldoni claims is like, oh, he's so nice to me. Is like, the most, like, obsequious, annoying. Like, fake obsequious, annoying. Trying to get what I want, like, Hollywood thing of all time. So that's not a conversation I would want to be having.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I am taking no one's side in that circumstance. I'm just saying that there are powerful forces at work.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you think about that? Like, Thunderbolt Ross akin to Red Hulk's, certainly. Chris, thanks for coming on board this train with us.

[Amy Poehler]

Thought it was gonna be funnier. I thought I would be funnier about it, but then I got depressed.

[Sean Fennessy]

This was a solemn and angry episode of the big picture.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I told you we should have flipped them.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We couldn't. Listen, we were pre taping and schedule.

[Sean Fennessy]

And supporting Robert Wagner and his ability to participate in a draft episode, which is coming next week. Also next week, we'll be talking about Paddington in Peru, and I'll be talking about what the desecration of that cinematic universe.

[Amy Poehler]

Do you want to come tomorrow to the movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, with me and Knox.

[Amy Poehler]

I think I'm going to MJ Lenderman. Is it the same?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, it's at 3:40.

[Sean Fennessy]

We'll also talk about another extended cinematic universe. Bridget Jones 4 Mad about the Boy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's the fourth film in the Bridget Jones story, and we're gonna try Chris Far.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Have you read Bridget Jones?

[Amy Poehler]

No.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know what you think you're doing where, like, men of a certain age have read Bridget Jones. I don't know a single man who's read that book.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But Chris is enlightened, you know. No, he's not.

[Sean Fennessy]

Chris watches Lioness and jerks off. What are you talking about? Chris is not reading Bridget Jones.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I just feel like this is my brother.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is my literal brother. I don't know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But, you know, he's an Anglophile. It's like. It's very charming.

[Amy Poehler]

I'm sure you're right. Yeah. I don't want to take anything away from what they've accomplished.

[Sean Fennessy]

The most apoplectic that you've been since you came back.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Have you ever seen a Bridget Jones movie?

[Amy Poehler]

No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What in the is wrong with you?

[Amy Poehler]

I'm sorry. I just haven't. I haven't. I haven't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Remember how you'd never seen Singing in the Rain until you watched it with Nos?

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. That was great.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. I. You know, that's fine. I want the third chair.

[Sean Fennessy]

Really weird expectations of men. Like, it's. And something we should explore more deeply in the future.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know whether it's like, are they weird, or is it how everyone should be? And it's like, you're not.

[Sean Fennessy]

No. It's your fascistic tendencies that rise to the surface where you're like, this is how it is. And I will accept no other truth.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Because I'm dealing with an entire society of men being like, this is how it is all the time.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, no.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know. Over here, this is how it is.

[Sean Fennessy]

We're doing an episode about Bridget Jones. Are we not secret?

[Amanda Dobbins]

And you couldn't read the book. It's very light reading. It's breezy.

[Sean Fennessy]

I didn't read whatever this Captain America movie was based on either.

[Amy Poehler]

Reading the Odyssey and Vineland.

[Sean Fennessy]

I am reading. I'm rereading Vineland Book Club.

[Amy Poehler]

Vineland, sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But also, you could read Bridget Jones. You could read it tonight. You could read it. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

But we will talk about the movie on the show. And we're gonna try to do something that might be a horrible idea and that might actually be offensive to Chris, but we're gonna try to build the American British Movie canon.

[Amy Poehler]

That's okay. I feel like you guys are really well suited to do that.

[Sean Fennessy]

What Americans think are great British movies in the 21st century.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm sure also that all of our British listeners will be thrilled. Us.

[Sean Fennessy]

They'll want to assassinate us. But it's okay. We'll have snatch it. Well, don't spoil it.

[Amy Poehler]

But that's what we're talking about.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

American guys being like, snatch is really good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right?

[Sean Fennessy]

That's a thing that will be like, what I can contribute, but I think Amanda has a lot more.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think also American women being like, Bridget Jones Diary starring an American.

[Amy Poehler]

I want you to know that I respect them. My administration, they will have a scene.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like, kind of be charmed by the book.

[Amy Poehler]

I think I would be, too. It's not like I'm. I'm not trying to be a dick. I literally barely can make it through, like, Mike Sandoz, six takeaways from a Super Bowl.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's written in dire. Entry. Diary entry form. Like, you actually could get through this.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I think the Turner Diaries is written similarly. So I'm. I appreciate.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I went to this fucking Marvel movie 40 minutes early. Yeah, because you're an idiot. And I didn't even say anything. I was like, I guess Sean is going to be a psycho one time.

[Sean Fennessy]

Pipe down. And you should have said something.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was trying to be supportive. I was mean.

[Amy Poehler]

I was very surprised that you weren't like, let's get a dessert where you were.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know, but I thought he was, like, being so crazy.

[Sean Fennessy]

I just.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I just got invited to Wood Ranch. Like, this is, like, Sean's time. I'm going to do it. I don't understand.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wood Ranch was Chris's idea. It was a good idea.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't like. That's fine. So I met you where you.

[Sean Fennessy]

What does it matter if I read Bridget Jones?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Don't be a dick.

[Amy Poehler]

I should save this for the Bridget Jones episode.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yassi will be here, so we won't be this fervid.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, you guys don't really fight in front of Yossi.

[Sean Fennessy]

We're working up to it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's new work, you know, so.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, well, great job, everybody. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work and for staying till 4.49pm on a Wednesday. Jack, thank you. This is a double session.

[Amy Poehler]

This is all time. You get back tomorrow, brother. Yep.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thanks to our producer, Robert Wagner.

[Amy Poehler]

What's future Jack gonna do with his legs?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, maybe he should check out an early screening of Captain Brave New World. Thanks for listening along and watching and have you been watching the big picture on YouTube?

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

And what do you think? Good experience?

[Amy Poehler]

It's a good experience. Did you know the watch is on platform on video on Spotify?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Because I listen to the watch.

[Sean Fennessy]

We are coming, coming to the, to the Spotify platform soon.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I can't say when.

[Amy Poehler]

Join me. It may be Spotify status.

[Amanda Dobbins]

How does that affect like my data saving?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know the answer to that question and I won't even try to answer it. But we will see you next week. Weekend.