Garbage Crime Returns! The Post-‘Heat’ Movie Awards and ‘Crime 101’ With Bart Layton!

Summary

The Big Picture – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Big Picture
Host: Sean Fennessey (SF)
Guest(s): Chris Ryan (CR), Bart Layton (BL, in interview segment)
Date: February 20, 2026
Episode Title: Garbage Crime Returns! The Post–'Heat' Movie Awards and ‘Crime 101’ With Bart Layton!

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Overview

This episode of The Big Picture is a lively, in-depth discussion of the evolving world of crime cinema—specifically, the "garbage crime" genre (lovingly and ironically so-called by the hosts). With the new film Crime 101 as a touchstone, hosts Sean Fennessey and Chris Ryan discuss Hollywood’s current crime movies in the wake/post-influence of Heat, the genre’s evolution, and their favorite examples of “garbage crime”. They also touch on industry news, pay homage to recently deceased acting legends, and delve into a revealing interview with Crime 101 director Bart Layton.

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Episode Breakdown

1. Movie Industry News and Programming Updates

• [03:05] - Jason Concepcion returns with a new podcast, and Sean will be hosting a live episode with Steven Spielberg at SXSW, previewing Spielberg’s new film Disclosure Day.
• [04:55] - The hosts discuss the legacy of Robert Duvall, noting the unparalleled range and sheer volume of classics he appeared in—particularly his 1970s work (i.e. Godfather, Apocalypse Now).
  • SF [06:40]: "Duval is America. He is America in terms of American actors…"
  • CR [09:53]: On Duvall as Gus McCrae in Lonesome Dove: "He encapsulates this character. Like, I just see his face."
• [11:50] - Tribute to Tom Noonan: lauded for his unique physicality and presence in films like Manhunter, House of the Devil, Anomalisa, and Monster Squad.

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2. The State of the Studios: Paramount, Warner Bros., and Netflix

• [15:45] - Analysis and worries over Paramount’s bid for Warner Bros., Netflix’s rival bid, and the broader commodification and trading of major film studios.
  • SF [18:04]: "None of them were for the good of movies except for the Seven Arts one… Everything else was… asset management."
  • CR [19:50]: Praises Warner Bros’ recent streak; laments the potential end of its director-driven hits.
  • SF [22:55]: "We're kind of in a bit of an HBO re apex right now… Only that network can still do."
  • CR [24:04]: Comments on stakeholder-driven studio strategies: "They either get eaten or eat."
  • A shared sense of disappointment and frustration at the industry's direction—less about films, more corporate wheeling-and-dealing.

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3. Crime 101 and the Return of Garbage Crime

What is “Garbage Crime”?

• Endearingly, it refers to mid-budget, street-level crime movies heavily indebted to Heat, filled with grimy L.A. locations and professional thieves/cops.
• SF [28:37]: "Crime 101 is the essence of what we were describing in so many ways."

Review and Analysis of Crime 101

• [29:38] - The film is described as a modern Los Angeles crime saga, shaped by its characters' obsessions with wellness and healing—a contrast to Heat's existential loneliness.
  • CR [30:37]: "This is a movie that's… about wellness and healing… doing yoga, they're drinking smoothies, they're listening to meditation apps, they're trying to unpack their childhood trauma and find love."
  • SF [31:11]: Hemsworth’s character is "like Batman. He only puts guys in headlocks…"
  • Focus on LA as a character: class divides, location authenticity, use of real LA geography.
    • CR [31:41]: "Why would you live anywhere but the beach if you were going to live here?"
• On the Cast:
  • Hemsworth’s performance is praised for nuance and physicality, with thoughtful inquiry about whether his tics indicate neurodivergence.
    • SF [33:42]: "Is he neurodivergent in some way? He has a lot of tics, kind of physical actions… it's not quite a showy performance, but he's trying to tell the audience… not the man with no name. He's the foster child with scars."
  • Monica Barbaro, Mark Ruffalo, Barry Keoghan, Halle Berry, Nick Nolte all get shoutouts for memorable, often underwritten, but impactful roles.
    • CR [42:21]: "That's, like, easily the most thinly written part in the movie… [Barbaro's] so watchable. You're so invested in her as a person."
• On Technical Execution:
  • The film’s opening heist: meticulous, tense, and "something new" to the genre.
    • SF [41:00]: "The opening heist with the jewel thievery is so specific and unusual and so tense and well-made…"
  • Real LA locations, practical car chases, and focus on ‘authentic’ crime logics all celebrated.

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4. The Post-Heat Crime Movie Landscape & Garbage Heat Awards

The Evolution of Garbage Crime

• [51:46] - After Heat, The Dark Knight is named as a new watershed, with its influential bank heist and Michael Mann-esque seriousness.
  • CR [53:15]: "After Heat… the crime aspect… is sort of left to imitators to kind of build up over the years."
  • The genre thrives in streaming and VOD, often with “straight-to-redbox” titles.
• Major Films Cited: Den of Thieves, Dragged Across Concrete, The Town, Logan Lucky, Ambulance, We Own the Night, Inside Man, and a string of recent and upcoming titles (Caught Stealing, No Other Choice, Pantera, new Guy Ritchie movies, etc.).
  • Inside Man (Clive Owen and Denzel Washington) called out as a great duo film within the genre.
• On TV Influence:
  • True Detective Season 2, ZeroZeroZero, Tokyo Vice cited as “heat-ish” television.

Garbage Heat “Awards”

(Note: These are tongue-in-cheek but insightful accolades for the genre’s standouts)

• Venice Boulevard Award for Best Opening Heist Set Piece: The Town
• Couple of Regular Fellows Award for Best Cop/Crook Duo: Inside Man; nominees include One Battle.
• Randy Newman “I Love LA” Award for Best Use of LA in a Crime Saga: Ambulance, also Crime 101
• Bon Voyage Award for ‘Heat’ in Another City: Logan Lucky (Charlotte, NC)
• Seven Years in Folsom Award for Painstakingly Researched Ripoff: Den of Thieves
• "You Do Not Get to Watch My TV" Award for TV influence: Task, ZeroZeroZero, True Detective S2, Too Old To Die Young, Tokyo Vice.
• Wingro Award for Character That Could Hang in Heat: Mads Mikkelsen in Pusher.

Is It a Good Time for Crime Movies?

• Uncertainty exists about studio support, but the genre’s perennial appeal to actors and auteurs sustains it.
  • CR [57:48]: "I think that a lot of our favorite performers are very interested in being in crime movies…"
• High costs of shooting authentic LA-set "garbage crime" are discussed in the context of Crime 101’s production.
• Nostalgia for the Don Siegel style—directors churning out lean, tough crime movies regularly.

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5. Lighter Segments and Inside Jokes

• Los Angeles Freeways Power Ranking
  • Homage to local flavor, humorously debating the best/worst LA freeways.
    • CR [43:27]: "The 101, 110 interchange… is always just… say a big prayer…"
  • The two agree: the 2 freeway is "elite".
• Childhood Trauma Corner, Baseball, and Scream 7
  • The conversation meanders into Chris Ryan’s Little League trauma, prepping for Scream 7, and other asides, always staying witty and personable.

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6. Bart Layton Interview – Crime 101: Making Modern Heist Cinema

[81:05]–[118:29]

Sean Fennessey (SF) interviews writer-director Bart Layton (BL):

• Eight-Year Gap Since Last Feature:

  • BL has been running a UK production company, focusing on docs; asserts future films will come more frequently.
  • The wish to be present as a father factored into the pacing.

• Adapting Don Winslow’s Novella:

  • Layton drawn to the balance of grown-up sophistication and compelling, accessible plotting—longing for the 80s/90s style crime movie.
  • He won the adaptation rights partly because Don Winslow and his agents admired American Animals, which Layton had previously directed.

• Why Heist/Crime Stories?

  • BL’s background: Growing up with a mother in fringe theater, he yearned to create commercial, audience-friendly movies that could “smuggle in” deeper, more subversive ideas.
  • Heist structures offer a rollercoaster framework, allowing for social/cultural critiques, e.g., about privilege and status.
  • BL [87:44]: "A heist film… you get to start with a question that everyone knows… they’re going to wait till the third act to find out… so you’ve got this inbuilt kind of ‘what’s going to happen next?’"

• Developing Characters Via Real-World Research:

  • BL interviews real jewel thieves, LAPD officers, and fences to flesh out characters—Chris Hemsworth’s character is based on foster care survivors, with vulnerability and trauma beneath the heist-genius surface.
  • On avoiding exposition: BL wanted Hemsworth’s tics and backstory to stay mostly implicit, favoring performance and small details over soliloquies.

• Meticulous, Authentic Heists:

  • The film’s opening sequence is carefully constructed for realism, inspired by “higher-than-fiction” real-life jewel thefts.

• Why Such a Strong Cast?

  • BL says the actors yearned for old-school, adult crime thrillers, and enthusiastically signed on after reading the script and seeing American Animals.

• Shooting on LA Locations:

  • BL pushed to shoot in Los Angeles (despite higher cost); strove for visual and cultural authenticity.
  • All car chases/plans filmed practically with new tech for in-car handheld shots—no blue screen, as much realism as possible.
    • BL [107:48]: "All of the car stuff, none of that is blue screen… we went as close to the danger line as you can go… and it's all in camera."

• On The Future of Crime Movies and Theaters:

  • BL expresses hope audiences want to see such films in theaters, and is gratified by the chance to make one on a big scale.
  • Cites The Graduate (watched with his kids) and Dog Day Afternoon as recent touchstones for emotional intensity in cinema.

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• Sean Fennessey [06:40]: "Duval is America. He is America in terms of American actors. Even more so than Brando…"
• Chris Ryan [30:37]: "This is a movie that's… very much about [L.A.] versions of trying to get better in their lives. They’re doing yoga, they’re drinking smoothies, they’re listening to meditation apps, they're trying to unpack their childhood trauma and find love."
• Sean Fennessey [31:11]: "This guy’s Batman. He only puts guys in headlocks. He doesn’t really hurt them... There are villains who do the hurting and we can see the good vs evil."
• Bart Layton [91:51]: "Chris and I started looking… there was a history of foster care, domestic violence, the absence of fathers, and the absence of kind adults… Chris's performance, I think, is a guy who’s not the James Bond of jewel thieves."
• Bart Layton [104:32]: On the cast: "I think there was a sense that maybe… everyone remembers and loved those kinds of movies and they were sort of sexy and… maybe they're not making as many… for the cinema."
• Bart Layton [107:48]: "All of the car stuff, none of that is blue screen. Even the car chases… it’s all in camera…"
• Sean Fennessey [116:50]: "Whereas… the truth was that back then [Friedkin] didn't have the kind of health and safety like, 'Oh, yeah, it was just dangerous.'"

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:55]–[13:21]: Actor tributes (Robert Duvall, Tom Noonan)
• [15:45]–[27:41]: Deep dive into studio mergers and the culture of asset management
• [29:38]–[47:00]: Extended review of Crime 101 and LA/“garbage crime” genre
• [51:46]–[80:55]: The post-Heat crime movie landscape, awards for “garbage crime,” and TV’s relationship to the genre
• [81:05]–[118:29]: Full Bart Layton interview (research, adaptation, making Crime 101, working in LA, and hopes for theaters)

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a comprehensive, witty, and nuanced look at contemporary crime movies, the enduring influence of Heat, industry anxieties, and the joy of seeing a classic genre return in new forms. The Crime 101 discussion and Bart Layton interview offer rare insights into the research and authenticity behind modern heist films, while the rest of the show brings warmth, nostalgia, and informed critique to movie industry chaos and the enduring appeal of “garbage crime.”

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Recommended Sequence: Start at [29:38] for the Crime 101 review and genre discussion, and at [81:05] for Bart Layton's in-depth segment. For a laugh—and some local color—don’t miss the freeways ranking at [43:22].

Transcript

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[Sean Fennessy]

I'm Sean Fennessy and this is the Big Picture, A conversation show about crime, garbage crime. Today on the show, CR is here. Hi.

[Chris Ryan]

What's up?

[Sean Fennessy]

How are you?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm doing great, man. It's good to see you.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's good to see you too. The crime kids are back. We're going to talk about garbage crime because there's literally a movie out right now called crime 101. You might think it's a guidebook for how to do crime. That's not what it is.

[Chris Ryan]

It's about my least favorite road in Los Angeles.

[Sean Fennessy]

We will talk about that movie very shortly. Later in this episode, I will have a conversation with Bart Layton. He's the writer director of this movie. It's been eight years since Bart was on the show, since his last movie, which is called American Animals, also a kind of heist thriller. And I've been wondering what the hell he's been up to since then. So he came back, he talked about adapting the Don Winslow novella that his film is based on. He also talked about how his background in true crime producing and directing informed a lot of the real stuff in this movie which is really interesting. So if you like crime 101 and you like crime movies, stick around that conversation. We also have a lot of movie world news which we will talk about right after this.

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This episode of the Big Picture is presented by State Farm.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know those friends who show up for whatever you're into. The ones who'll debate which superhero universe is better or binge true crime docum with you at three in the morning. Those friends are gold.

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State Farm is like that. Helping you figure out the coverage that actually fits. Car, home life, whatever you need, they've got your back. And if you want a hand, a local agent is just a tap away

[Sean Fennessy]

on their award winning app like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Okay. CR Some programming notes to begin our conversation. 1. Jason Concepcion is back on the on the Ringer podcast network.

[Chris Ryan]

I could not be happier.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's great news. He and Tyler Parker are hosting a new show called. Wait a second. Yes. The first episode of that is now available where you get your podcasts. Bill Simmons Conspiracy. Bill Simmons is the first guest. I'm very excited about this show. Of course. We love Jason. A ringer OG this show is. Is this on JMO's corner?

[Chris Ryan]

We'll find out. I am going on the second episode.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wow.

[Chris Ryan]

And I'm very excited. Don't get fired. You know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Will you be exploring Dave Dombrowski's comments about Bryce Harper's elite status and the follow up to that conversation?

[Chris Ryan]

Other powerful men.

[Sean Fennessy]

I see.

[Bart Layton]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Mike Such us.

[Chris Ryan]

Jeffrey Epstein.

[Sean Fennessy]

Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. You'll be digging into those files.

[Chris Ryan]

Your voice got a little high there.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm curious to hear about what you find.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I'm.

[Sean Fennessy]

Was your name in the document?

[Chris Ryan]

No, it wasn't. Did you search for yours?

[Sean Fennessy]

No. Did you search for yours? I did. You should. So JMO is going to be okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Problem with my name. It's pretty common. The words Chris Ryan are pretty common. I think there were some hits for Ryan but like it wasn't me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Uh huh. You seem really nervous right now. Are you okay? Is it just. Cause. So when's the last time me and you sat down for one of these? Just me and you?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, it's been a while.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like we did one about Predator Badlands but you were in England at the time.

[Chris Ryan]

But we were cooking on that. Even the ocean couldn't stop us.

[Sean Fennessy]

We were one of the lowest rated episodes of the year. But honestly. But I think it's because it's actually related to our Crime 101 conversation. And I'm going to circle back with you about that very idea. That was a great pod. This will be even better. I do have one more programming note. March 13th at the south by Southwest Film and TV Festival. I will be hosting a live episode of the Big Picture. It's a conversation with Steven Spielberg.

[Chris Ryan]

And I would know him from he's

[Sean Fennessy]

a filmmaker of some renown, young up and comer, and he's amassing some credits. And he has a new film coming in June called Disclosure Day. We will talk a bit about that movie in our conversation and hopefully his entire career, which of course is incredibly meaningful to both of us.

[Chris Ryan]

When you say live big picture, do you mean you're going to be throwing headlines at him? You're going to be like, yeah, Steve, the Peaky Blinders trailer dropped and your thoughts are what?

[Sean Fennessy]

I feel like he could flow in that state if we wanted to go there. But I think the conversation will probably be located in movies.

[Chris Ryan]

Scorsese and Spielberg. That's the, that's the podcast that I would, I would garnish all my wages for the two of them. It's the, the, the two, the ego and the id, the two sides of all filmmaking. To have them talk just like no notes. Do you guys just start rapping about movies?

[Sean Fennessy]

Maybe Marty should just replace me for this event. I would honestly be fine with that if you wanted to do that. That's not going to be possible though. So, yeah, come see us. If you can't come see us in Texas, then you'll be able to listen to the show right here on the Big Picture. So that'll be exciting. Pivoting to another icon, a late icon, Robert Duvall. I haven't done an episode since duvall passed away 95 years old earlier this week. And I know that you and Bill spoke a bit about him on Bill's show. I had some things I wanted to share. I do think Bill framed the conversation interestingly around. Has any actor been a part of more significant works in the period in which they're best known? So in the 70s, Duvall kind of emerges out of 60s New York into the new Hollywood. And you just go down the list of movies that he appeared in, essentially in part because he was like a day player for Francis Ford Coppola. But Godfathers 1 and 2, Apocalypse now, the Conversation, all for Coppola. Plus you've got MASH, THX, 1138 Network, Invasion of the Body Snatchers and then lesser known stuff, but still big Movies, Tender Mercies, the Killer Elite, True Confessions, the Outfit, the Great Northfield, Minnesota Raid, Joe Kidd, the Eagle Has Landed, all in the 1970s. He also during that time played Jesse James, Dr. Watson, Boo Radley, Joseph Pulitzer, and then later in his career, General Robert E. Lee. Duval is America. He is America in terms of American actors. Even more so, I think, than Brando, even more so than the silent stars of the 1920s and 30s. I didn't realize this at the time, but reading about him, Vincent Canby, the longtime New York Times critic, once called him the American Olivier, which I find to be interesting. And I'm not sure that I thought of them in the same way until I heard that way of setting him up. What do you think about that?

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I wonder whether that's an element of he could be anyone but was always himself. And I don't really know as much. I don't really know anything about filmmaking. But I like to read more about the technique and artistry that goes into choosing lenses and how you're lighting and what your camera moves mean for the emotional content of a script. I think I understand that a little bit more than acting as a mystery to me. But I did find it interesting reading after his passing about the Meisner technique that Duvall practiced and that Duvall was like sort of an acolyte of that school of acting and the description of it, which is essentially remaining very present emotionally in a moment rather than being like, here is the. Everything that happened to Kilgore leading up to the point where he says, charlie, don't surf like it.

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The.

[Chris Ryan]

The psychological backstory is not as important as like kind of being there in the moment and what a present actor. You know, when you go back and if you think about that and you watch some scenes from his performances, I was even just watching some paper stuff where he's like talking to Keaton about Keaton taking a job at the New York Sentinel, which is like the Times. And he's just so fantastic. The way he moves, the way he's like looking pat, always patting it for a cigarette box. And he just will do stuff that is memorable without being showy.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And just what an amazing life and career.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Very physical actor. A hand gesturing actor. It's interesting you mentioned Meisner because one of the other most famous practitioners of the Meisner approach who studied under Meisner was Diane Keaton, who just passed away. Similarly present actor. An actor who you always felt like whatever they were saying had just come to them at that time, not that they were reading lines in any way. And his body of work is just crazy. He did eventually win an Academy Award for tendermurr season 83. My take in terms of our Oscar snubs, which we did earlier this week on the show, is that he should have won for apocalypse now in 79 over Melvyn Douglas, who won his second for being there for a very similar role for the first film that he won for. But there's a whole range of experiences like that. But you know Tom Hagen, Gus McCrae, of course, from Lonesome Dove, one of your favorites.

[Chris Ryan]

Unbelievable.

[Sean Fennessy]

And you can make the case that's his signature part.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And also considering what a huge novel that was and what a huge novel it remains, it's. It's incredible that it's hard to read that book now without seeing him. It's not unlike what happened with no country for Me, where once you've seen the film, when you are reading those pages, you're just seeing Brolin and Bardem and Tommy Lee. Now that I've watched Lonesome Dove several times, whenever I go back and page through Lonesome Dove, the novel, you're just like, that's. He encapsulates this character. Like, I just see his face.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's so interesting. I mean, he was very comfortable in a lot of different kinds of things. He was comfortable in a Western, comfortable in a contemporary crime film, comfortable in science fiction, comfortable in farce. He could do character study like he really was. Even though I think he has a kind of craggy American, South American broad identity. He's from California.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And, you know, a guy who is, like, a little bit more of a conservative, libertarian figure also in the world of Hollywood, too, so. But that was not, like, held against him or, like, clearly identified with his character as a figure in the profession. So really unusual guy who also played Stalin and a Nazi colonel in his career. Like just a huge, huge career. Tons of movies to discover if you haven't done the deep dive. And we will do the deep dive, I think, in the spring with Tracy Letts, he'll come on and we'll do a proper hall of Fame for him. There are a lot of Duval movies I just haven't seen. Yeah. So I'm ready to dig. I just looked at the Eagle Has Landed for the first time a couple of days ago. Really interesting movie. Have you seen that?

[Chris Ryan]

The Eagles Landed. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So in that movie, it's a largely British cast about a German operation to kidnap Winston Churchill.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

All of the English actors are using their English accents, even Though they're playing Germans, Robert Duvall is using a German accent.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's got a little bit of Chernobyl where it's like there are two or three people doing Russian accented English, but everybody else is just doing English.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Very strange English.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, very strange. Very strange. We also lost Tom Noonan. Kelso. Francis Dolarhyde from Manhunter. Beloved character actor, icon of the ringer. Honestly, one of the most important character actors to the Ringer.

[Chris Ryan]

I did wonder whether or not he was aware of his importance to us before his passing.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't get that impression.

[Chris Ryan]

Probably not.

[Sean Fennessy]

Based on his general manner.

[Chris Ryan]

Not a picture.

[Sean Fennessy]

You never know to me. Also, the Ripper from Last Action Hero. I'll never forget him. Kane from RoboCop 2. In our youth, I think he was a very present figure in movies. And then even more recently, Anomalisa. He famously was everyone else except for the two lead characters that all those voices in that film. You probably never saw Anomalisa.

[Chris Ryan]

I did see Anomalisa.

[Sean Fennessy]

You did?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wow. Animation.

[Chris Ryan]

I saw it. Yeah, I saw it in the theater for a screening, I think.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know what? He's really fucking scary in House of the Devil.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, fuck, I forgot about that.

[Sean Fennessy]

The Ti west movie where. Yes. A babysitter comes over and it's his home. Where he's babysitting. Where she's babysitting.

[Chris Ryan]

That's right.

[Sean Fennessy]

And yeah, he's effective in that. I remember he's in Damages for like three seasons. Quality FX show that's sort of forgotten. But now with Rose Byrne's Oscar nomination, maybe more people rediscovering it. He was Frankenstein in the Monster Squad. Big career. Oh, yeah, big career.

[Chris Ryan]

And he directed what Happened Was, which is a film you made with Karen Silas and is one of the great. Is that late 90s or.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's like 94.

[Chris Ryan]

94 mid-90s indie films. And if you have a chance to check that out, he's phenomenal in a lot of ways. Is like a very, like, emblematic or signature work of his.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. That. You can find it on Radiance. They put out a great edition of that movie.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm going to miss both of these actors as faces. I think I've been noticing as I've been watching TV and movies this year just how rare it is to come across people who actually look like real people anymore. Because I think people start acting very young. We're able to take care of ourselves. If you're going into something where you're on camera, you're probably worried about your skin and your hair and your teeth and all this stuff. And I kind of miss guys who look like Duvall and Tom Noonan. They're just made bald guys. Well, I mean, there's. Part of it is that, but it's part of it is just like their eyes or the way that they're wrinkled or the way that they're, they walk. And it's not overly trained, it's not overly sanded down. And any movie that they're in becomes. It feels a little bit more real because they're in it. Like watching Duvall slick back the side parts of his balding hair and now

[Sean Fennessy]

that's very good, Frank.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a big titted hit.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I was reading a bit about Noonan and that he was a basketball player and he said that playing basketball made him more comfortable performing because he had been in environments where big crowds were looking at him and that he was not trained to be. He didn't become a professional actor until he was a little bit older, in his 20s. And I think that also allowed him to develop a little bit more of that ordinary oddness that you're describing. He seemed like kind of a strange cat in an interesting way. And yeah, we don't make them quite that way.

[Chris Ryan]

And in Manhunter, a guy who has a cat. So that's cool.

[Sean Fennessy]

Among other proclivities. Yes. So, yeah, we'll miss both of those actors a lot. Let's talk about Paramount. Okay, so Paramount's takeover bid was rejected in favor of Netflix's some months ago. You and I both talked about this many times on our podcast, I would say, and I insinuated this a couple of times when we talked about it. Amongst the people that I know who know shit, they were always like, don't give up on Paramount. This is very much still a possibility that Paramount is going to strong arm their way into acquiring Warner Brothers. And Netflix has gone through all the paces. Ted Sarandos testified before Congress, Paramount's still keeping up the fight. So they have, they're in the middle of this seven day window right now where they can essentially raise their bid and show why this is a better deal overall for their WB shareholders. And.

[Chris Ryan]

And they have identified a cohort of activist investor shareholders within the Warner Brothers umbrella that are open to this.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, yes. And I think with the idea that they're dissatisfied by the potentiality of the Netflix sale and also the idea that, you know, the Netflix sale is for $83 billion. The Paramount bid is for $108 billion. Where that money is coming from and how it's collected has been a subject of much debate. I'm not an expert on that, so I won't try to get into it. But as I have started rereading more stories about this, I just want to say that this doesn't have to happen. And it's going to happen, almost certainly. But I think it's important for people to understand that the kind of like cynicism of finality that is going on around this conversation I find very depressing. And for whatever reason, over its 100 year history, Warner Brothers has been the centerpiece in the hot potato of media asset. So every time something, every time there's a changing of the guard. Technologically, economically, in America, this is a company that gets passed off. The Warner family obviously started Warner Brothers. They held the company for 30 plus years and then they sold it to a company called Seven Arts in the 1960s, which was run in part by famous movie producer Ray Stark. And 7 Arts was like, we're gonna make more movies. They were sort of like how we would think of like Legendary or New Regency or Skydance. That's the kind of business that they were.

[Chris Ryan]

They made movies with the potential for like box office success.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. But also that they were a production company that also did film financing.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

And that they were like, what we do is we, you know, we backstop Lolita, west side Story, Whatever happened to Baby Jane. They made a ton of Hammer horror films. They were just getting money into movies all the time. And they tried to buy the the company and it didn't work and they couldn't run it and they couldn't successfully manage it. And so they sold it to this holding company, Kinney National Company, which then eventually became Warner Communications. And they held it all the way until Time Inc. Bought it in 1990. And that obviously was a fiasco. In 2018 at&t buys it. That's a fiasco. In 2022, Discovery buys it and they buy it to sell it.

[Chris Ryan]

There's an AOL merger somewhere in there.

[Sean Fennessy]

That was the Time Inc. Time Inc. Aol, trying to make all that stuff fit together. And all of those instances, none of them were for the good of movies except for the Seven Arts one. That was one where they were like, what we want to do is make more and better movies. Everything else was like, this is asset management. And it's okay to understand that that's how the business works. But when you look at the history of Warner Brothers, which is such an important movie studio, to the thing that we love. And you think about all the filmmakers who did some of their best work there. This is the movie studio of Humphrey Bogart's great works. It's Clint Eastwood, it's Stanley Kubrick, it's Christopher Nolan for the first two thirds of his career. I find the only way we're talking about this, the only reason we're talking about the studio and its legacy as this hot potato to be the most depressing thing in the world, and there being no good outcome and everyone accepting that there's no good outcome. I don't know what to do with the feeling that I have about it. And we can pretend like this is fantasy football, or we're like, report you called Bond on the rewatchables, a trade deadline scenario where we're waiting to find out who the next Bond is. I think for individual movies and franchises, that's fun. But for something this big, I don't know, something feels really lost here culturally and like, I, I'm hosting a movie pod, you know, But I, I just kind of got to get out of

[Chris Ryan]

myself a year too, where Warner Brothers kind of showed the way forward for the kinds of movies that we want to talk about, which are, you know, director focused, director driven, but with mass wide appeal and could say something about the world we live in.

[Bart Layton]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

And they're on a heater and we don't want to see that end. Regardless of what company winds up owning it, I think there's a lot of, like, political ramifications that come out of, you know, whichever way this goes. I too feel like the things that I have read suggest that Paramount thinks they're getting it. Like they're, they're behaving as if once this part happens, that it's just going to get waved through by the federal government.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. And that may well be true. And I think from a media perspective, it's kind of a nightmare. It's a disastrous possibility that four of the most significant news powers in broadcasting would all be aligned under one company and then also be potentially at the heels of the president. I don't think that's a good outcome at all. The Netflix issue, Amanda and I talked about at length in terms of what that acquisition means. Ted Sarandos has been working very hard, including on the Town this week, talking about pvod. Yes. Communicating all of the ways in which he will maintain, maintain the structures that have obviously been so successful for Warner Brothers film in the last 18 months. I reserve the right to be skeptical about all of those things, especially over time, but you never know.

[Chris Ryan]

Also, I reserve the right for there to be a different federal government at some point. And the one thing that's interesting about this that I don't understand is there's this week of essentially new negotiations between Paramount and Warner, and I don't really understand the timeline after that. I know that there's a huge fee that Warner would have to pay Netflix if the deal falls apart at this point. Paramount has said it would pay that for Warner Brothers. Sure, there's going to be a ton of other lawsuits.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's $2.5 billion.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, there would be a ton of other lawsuits going around anyway about this, but I don't know whether or not like, midterms affects this or whether or not a lame duck Trump administration, if that does come to pass, affects this. Whether or not the idea that a different administration being in power would maybe affect the likelihood of this happening or affect the tenor of the way Paramount is talking about things behind the scenes, I have no idea.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know either. I pitched this around to a couple of people this week. The exact framework that you suggested, which is like Trump will be out of office in whatever two and a half years in theory, and particularly if there's a shift in terms of the House, the Senate, the mood of the country over the course of that next two and a half years politically, would that change the posture of the Ellison family entirely in terms of what their media strategy in terms of owning these properties is? We don't know. We don't know. Some people don't trust that it would. Some people do. Some people think it won't matter. Like our political atmosphere will not infect our media in quite the same way.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, I would say, easy for

[Sean Fennessy]

me to say, I guess if you

[Chris Ryan]

look at the sort of tenor of a lot of major, say, social media corporations, corporations in general in 20, 20, 2021, versus the way that they behave now. They go where the wind blows.

[Sean Fennessy]

I tend to feel that way, but I'm not sure if that's enough to feel. My point is, is that I keep saying this sucks in it. I wish this wasn't happening. I just wish this wasn't happening. And Warner Brothers is very obviously, before it was debt loaded for all of these mergers and acquisitions over the years is a solvent business. It's very clear that what they're doing makes a lot of sense. We're kind of in a. We're in a Bit of an HBO re apex right now. You know, they're like, they're on their fifth consecutive show. Like they've turned industry season four into a hit. That's an amazing thing that kind of. Only that network can still do.

[Bart Layton]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

When you load that on top of, you know, all The Abdi and DeLuca era WB movies have been doing and they did it all over again with Wuthering Heights. You know, a movie I didn't really care for, but like no doubt worked and made $100 million in five days. That's pretty amazing for a 250-year-old novel adaptation. So I'm just disappointed. And this will be my last sour note before we talk about crime in the movies, because that's a joyful thing for us. But I've just been watching this news happen and listening to podcasts and reading news articles and thinking the collective acceptance of this story is deeply frustrating.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you chalk that up to there being just way more stakeholders who have something invested in the idea of transactional business like this happening than there are people who are like, I really just want the best possible movies and TV shows to get made by these companies? Or I don't know, is it like endemic of like the fact that like these studios are part of portfolios for highly diversified corporations now and this kind of stuff is where modern corporations eventually wind up is like to be they either get eaten or eat.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a very big question and probably worthy of like a years long seminar study.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

But in general, I think it speaks to the fact that those who seek to acquire industries that are built on the backs of artists and artwork very rarely are in the best service of those people and that they are like commodifiers. And that makes a lot of sense. You know, we work at Spotify, show is licensed by Netflix. I'm aware of all of the inherent hypocrisy of this conversation, but I hold a lot of what movies can do to the culture very dear. And it's like last year was an interesting version of like, it's actually still strong, it actually still matters and is still powerful. And so anything that feels like potentially stripping that away, I find dispiriting. But if this were, you know, if this were the press box, we would talk about it in a different way. Sure. And I think Brian and David and Joel will talk about it differently when this comes to pass. But many people said to me when Discovery came in on Warner Brothers that it was like bought to sell.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

And bought to sell sucks.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I think probably that once the dreams of John Malone, that they would have essentially a fully integrated telecom business, broadband business, with things being pumped through the broadband into people's telephones. Once that kind of fell apart and the idea that we would all just like, have an AT&T phone and just be sitting there watching Game of Thrones, which was like three years solid, of like, isn't this amazing?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Isn't this what we've always dreamed of? And then, like, I think a bunch of different industries kind of blew that out of the water. Now it's like that this is the only endpoint for these guys. It's like they don't do it because they love movies and they just want to have. I mean, I think that was the dream of Zaslav, was like, maybe this guy just wants to sit at Robert Evans's house and rub shoulders with people.

[Sean Fennessy]

But the ironic thing is, as much shit as he took for the first two and a half years of his administration, the people that he hired did what they were supposed to do. It worked. So why sell? That's the thing. I know why. I know why. There's a huge payout coming for everyone who is materially involved at the highest level for that. I get it. I'm not overlooking that. But you can just kind of continue to be an icon of Hollywood if you continue to empower executives and filmmakers and TV showrunners who do this stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, anyway, as the majority shareholder of the big picture, I'll keep your thoughts in mind. And I know you're a creator. I'm not trying to make money off your back, but who's the worst person

[Sean Fennessy]

you could sell this show to?

[Chris Ryan]

Chase Utley for $1?

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think that Chase would cancel it immediately or keep it going in perpetuity, but just force me to watch Philly's World Series DVDs?

[Chris Ryan]

I think what he would is make you watch Philadelphia Phillies World Series parade videos while sliding into you high.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I saw Ruben Tejada just got hired somewhere and I fell for him. You know? You know who that is, right?

[Chris Ryan]

I do know who he is.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's the man who Chase attempted to murder.

[Chris Ryan]

It was a baseball play.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, yeah, we heard you. Nine years of bring back the snack wrap and you've won.

[Bart Layton]

But maybe you should have asked for more. Say hello to the hot honey snack wrap.

[Sean Fennessy]

Now you've really won.

[Bart Layton]

Go to McDonald's and get it while you can.

[Sean Fennessy]

This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day to day. But our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think that weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW and the other drivers out there. Grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn [e-mail] let's talk about crime. Yeah, I don't remember the last time we talked about garbage crime. It's been a long time. We have done many iterations on our garbage episodes. For those of you who have not heard them before.

[Chris Ryan]

Did we do something after Rebel Ridge was there? I think that was garbage revenge.

[Sean Fennessy]

Perhaps we did. So that's last year, right? That's early last year. And crime was the OG Crime was the first time that we talked about this. And maybe we've done one other crime episode as well, but we actually have a movie called Crime 101. This movie is the essence of what we were describing in so many ways. So this new film, as I mentioned, written and directed by Bart Layton, based on a novella by Don Winslow, an extremely successful crime writer in his own right. It stars Chris Hemsworth, Mark Ruffalo, Barry Keoghan, Monica Barbaro, Corey Hawkins, Jennifer Jason Lee, Nick Nolte and Halle Berry. That is quite a cast.

[Chris Ryan]

It's, it's quite mind blowing when you know, Jennifer Jason Lee is showing up for one scene. Essentially.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, I, I spoke with Bart about that and he explained how that happened. The premise is thus a master thief and an insurance broker join forces for a big heist while a determined detective pursues them to prevent the multimillion dollar crime. So what did you think of crime 101?

[Chris Ryan]

I really enjoyed myself and enjoyed watching was instructive because this is a Los Angeles crime saga in the same way. I think he is very self styled as one to think about the conclusions of both films and without drawing too giant of like without painting too wide of a brush, how films have changed and how Los Angeles has changed in the ensuing decades. This is a movie that's very much about wellness and healing and is about a bunch of characters going through very Los Angeles versions of trying to get better in their lives. They're doing yoga, they're drinking smoothies, they're listening to meditation apps, they're trying to unpack their childhood trauma and find love. And so even though there is elements of like broken people trying to put themselves back together in heat, I think it ultimately ends with Staring into the abyss while Moby plays and realizing that you're just gonna die alone.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Yeah. Heat is a samurai movie, right. And crime 101 is. It's goopier, it's goopier. There's something more therapized.

[Chris Ryan]

It's also playing by certain rules that I don't think really reveal themselves until the end. Because when you're watching it, you're like, oh, this is a gritty. This is shot in la. There's some really cool shit happening. There's some great chases, there's some great set pieces. But then about midway, 3/4 full through, you're like, oh, this guy's Batman. He doesn't hurt any. Like he only puts guys in headlocks. He doesn't really hurt them. You know what I mean?

[Sean Fennessy]

Like, yeah. And there are villains who do the hurting and we can see the good versus evil. The movie is also. I think that's right on. And the idea that like two key characters meeting at a yoga class.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, is fascinating and very wise. And it's very smart about the city right now. The other way, in which it's pretty smart about the city right now, I think, is that it's definitely a class conscious movie. That's like, here's what downtown looks like. Here's where unhoused people are. Here's what it's like doing business under a bridge. And also here's what it's like on the beach. Here's what happens like in Beverly Hills.

[Chris Ryan]

Character says, why would you live anywhere but the beach if you were going to live here?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. So there's a lot of attention paid to that. And look, there's just not a lot of movies that are shot here anymore. Forget about the state, the city of Los angeles. Are there 10 movies a year that are shot here where you're seeing this much of the city on film?

[Chris Ryan]

I couldn't believe I didn't see this movie get filmed. There's the fender bender in this movie takes place in Atwater Village. Monica Barbaro and Chris Hemsworth's first date is right on the corner of Sunset and Echo Park. It's in the hood.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's in the hood.

[Chris Ryan]

It really is.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. It's exciting to see that Hemsworth is an interesting cat. He gets a lot of flack for not being able to carry movies in which he's not Thor. He's done some really cool stuff over the years. He's also done some stuff that hasn't worked, I think stuff like Rush Extraction. Those are cool movies. And they're movies that sit on his shoulders.

[Chris Ryan]

In the Heart of the Sea.

[Sean Fennessy]

I knew you were gonna say in the Heart of the Sea. Wasn't that part of the sea is dope originally? Yes, it was the Black Sea. And in the Heart of the Sea,

[Chris Ryan]

Jude Law movie on a submarine was Black Sea. And then in the Heart of the Sea is Herman Melville hanging out on the boat thing.

[Sean Fennessy]

Little bit of like a red flag on that one for you, for why you like that movie. But, you know, he's also been a part of some movies that have not worked in this way. This is a tricky part for him. It's very Neal McCauley in a lot of ways, except it gives you backstory. It gives you a little bit of history. The other thing is that Hemsworth is doing something in his performance where it's like, is it that he's just affected by his upbringing and the challenges that he had as a kid? Is he neurodivergent in some way? He has a lot of tics, kind of physical actions. He struggles with eye contact. He kind of like, turns away. He's very finicky in some ways. It's not quite a showy performance, but he's trying to tell the audience, like, this is not yojimbo. You know what I mean? This is not the most trained, calm, easy living.

[Chris Ryan]

He's not the man with no name. He's the foster child with scars.

[Sean Fennessy]

So what do you think about him?

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't mind it. I don't know how I feel about him. In I'm gonna turn down. I'm gonna turn down some of my inherent charm. Obviously, if you see Thor, you just can see that this guy has a kind of classic movie star charm that I don't think. I think he probably seems unsettled about because he often chooses to do much more. Black Hat's a really good example of, like, monosyllabic. It's just me, Lone gunman, out on my own.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, McQueen.

[Chris Ryan]

I took it more to be a guy who is never quite playing himself. He's always living in a pre furnished apartments that he moves quite frequently to. He in the opening shot of him is him trying to rid himself of all evidence of DNA, which is, you know, quite on the nose, but also very effective. So he's like getting all his hair follicles and dead skin cells off. That's like a guy who's never really one thing. Yeah. And I thought as I was watching this movie, in the same way, maybe when Some people watch Heat, but they're like, if you just cut this plot line, this movie would be two hours, and I'd watch it once a week. I felt the same way about Crime 101, where I was like, you could do that, too, but I don't know what you'd cut. I don't know what you'd cut. That would take away from some of the, honestly, like, really evident charms, even if it plays certain notes that are very familiar.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, it's kind of an ornate structure of characters interweaving, and the whole movie needs to kind of have a convergence where all of them are kind of. You know, they find each other at the end and their plot lines cohere. So it would be very hard to remove one, because you do need a detective in search of the criminal. You do need, essentially, this elevated accomplice in the Halle Berry character. You do need this antagonist figure in Barry Keoghan. The movie does kind of, like, dispense with Nick Nolte, who just kind of, like, disappears from the movie one third of the way through. I think at a certain point, it becomes clear that there's, like, too much load to bear on the story in general. Ruffalo. Fascinating that he's still doing parts like this.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, he's just doing it simultaneous, like, with task.

[Sean Fennessy]

And he's been doing this for 20 years. I mean, collateral in the cut. Like, he's always playing cops. He's always playing these characters. And. And maybe he just feels super comfortable in this world. He's fine in this. He, like, adds a layer of credibility to any story like this. Likewise for Halle Berry, who's just, like, stands in for every hot woman who got hired for their looks and then was forced to use their looks in the workplace all the way up until that no longer became convenient for their bosses. And then so she is, like, kind of discarded for a younger model, and then that leads to her seeking a kind of revenge.

[Chris Ryan]

She plays a character who does private insurance for incredibly rich clients who need their artwork or their events or their belongings to have, like, a certain layer of insurance.

[Sean Fennessy]

Would you say that Tate Donovan's character is the one that you related to the most in the film?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm trying to think of who I related to most in the movie. It's probably Barry Keoghan.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, Barry Keoghan plays another thief in more of a Live Wire, a loose cannon, also in contact with the fence, played by Nick Nolte. Who is this? Sort of. And it was interesting to hear Bart talk about fences that he has met and the relationships that they build with their young thieves and the way they kind of seek out these foster kids who don't have father figures. And then they bring them into their world and then they encourage them to potentially do jobs to create this kind of Fagin Oliver relationship, which I thought was really interesting. The movie doesn't psychologize that stuff that much, but if you take a minute to think about it, I think it's really effective. But Keoghan is just like. He's just playing Waingro in a lot of ways.

[Chris Ryan]

He's playing Wingro and he's playing Waingro if he was in good time.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, he's got the blonde hair, he's got the affectation, a little bit of, like, I get to be on a motocross bike the entire movie. So I wear windbreakers and a black helmet everywhere.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And he is a very necessary bit of energy in this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Agree.

[Chris Ryan]

Where he is the one who feels like, I don't know where this scene is going when he's on screen where everybody else are like, let me guess. Mark Ruffalo has got a problem with his ex wife, but he's gonna eventually, through meditation and yoga and finding Halle Berry, like, lose his beard and become much more self satisfied. Barry Keoghan is in, like, Laws of gravity in the 90s. Like, he's running around. You can tell. There's a scene in a grocery store where Chris Hemsworth has chased Barry Keoghan across downtown Los Angeles. Barry Keoghan gets into a car accident with his motorcycle, and he winds up in the back of a convenience store, rather on the floor of a liquor store, where he's just, like, concussed and rolling around. And it's just like. It feels more like surveillance footage than it does, like, a movie with Chris Hemsworth in it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

He's, like, doing things to Hemsworth where I feel like it's even throwing Hemsworth off because he's just like, I'm not gay. I'm not gay. I'm not gay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I do, I do.

[Chris Ryan]

And Hemsworth is just like, all right, mate, you need to go over here. Like, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's a testimony to him as an actor. And, you know, he was in Layton's previous film, American Animals. That might have been one of the first times I ever saw him. And I was thinking about this recently with the Beatles movies where he's playing Ringo and he's not Ringo. He looks like Ringo in that photo, sure. But his energy is Keith Moon. He's a maniac. He's always a maniac, even when he's sweet and vanishing or John. Yes. There's definitely something kind of punk chaotic about him. I agree that he helps the movie's energy stay high because at times it can flag because you have so many kind of taciturn and wounded characters and a lot of times that can, like, bring things down. But I enjoyed him. I did feel a little bit like somebody should just shoot this guy in the face in the 43rd minute of the movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. There's a couple of moments where you're just like, why does he keep giving. Why does Chris Hemsworth's character, Mike Davis, which I don't know if it was purposely named after one of the great chroniclers of Los Angeles.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Recently passed away, author of City of Quartz.

[Chris Ryan]

He just keeps being like, I've got my eye on you.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, Was he doing an Aussie accent from Los Angeles?

[Chris Ryan]

It was really funny when. When that character is like, born and bred here. May.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Boy Heights. Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, so Molly's mma.

[Sean Fennessy]

We did get Halle Berry and Mark Ruffalo. We got some Americans in there, I think.

[Bart Layton]

So.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think the movie is pretty cool. I think especially the opening heist with the Jewel Thievery is so specific and unusual and so tense and well made. And then the car chases are so good. And seeing it in the city that we just. We did used to literally get three of these a year, and we really do not anymore. So I really feel like we have to celebrate stuff like this. That being said, this almost feels like a movie that they had to like beg to get it into theaters. And they did, and it got like kind of a medium response in theaters. And it's going to be like one of the biggest streaming movies of the year. I think when it goes to Amazon, it's going to be fucking enormous.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Because as a two and a half hour and change movie, it is. I hate saying that people can do this, but it is the kind of like you could watch it over two nights if you wanted to. It's not the end of the world. It's funny. Like the entire premise of us being here today is to talk about garbage, Heat and movies influenced by Heat. But the more that I was thinking about crime 101, it was almost like garbage shortcuts. The Don Winslow text is slightly more like these disparate lives in Los Angeles that intersect in places, but the LA underworld, you know, and sucking normal type people into it and everything like that. And there is, like, an element in the beginning of the movie where it's a different kind of filmmaking experience where they're like, here's Halle Berry on the freeway, but then it goes across the lanes to see Mark Ruffalo going that way. And it's like this idea that perhaps it's a little bit more curious about everyday LA life before it gets entirely. Diamond Heisty is an interesting alternative reality for this movie, but ultimately down to. Nick Nolte is essentially the Jon Voight character, as you said. The Barry Keoghan character is essentially waingro. Neil McCauley is the Chris Hemsworth character.

[Sean Fennessy]

We haven't mentioned Monica Barbaro, who is, you know, very much playing Edie. Monica Barbara, coming off an Oscar nomination. I think her first part just want to say she has the juice.

[Chris Ryan]

She's excellent.

[Sean Fennessy]

She. That's, like, easily the most thinly written part in the movie.

[Chris Ryan]

And she's Four scenes, and she's incredible in all of them.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. She's so. She's just so watchable. You're. You're so invested in her as a person. Yeah. Which is actually quite different from the archetypal characters that are in the movie throughout. Even though she's less well written, it's an. It's interesting. I'm really excited to see what she does in the future. I.

[Bart Layton]

This is.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't even know. I don't know what technique she studies. But if you want an example of kind of what we were talking about, Duvall. Watch her in the fender bender scene where she's, like, just doing this kind of a weirdly written scene, because it's like, Chris Hemsworth gets out of a car. He's like, you want to go to dinner?

[Sean Fennessy]

Paul Hogan gets out of a car. Yeah. That's not a knife. Monica.

[Chris Ryan]

Uh, she just does, like, five things. You're like, oh. Like, while they're having the most banal conversation.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And she's interesting.

[Sean Fennessy]

She's engaged. Yeah, I agree. I really like her. Okay, before we get into our proper state of garbage crime and post Heat awards, let's power rank the freeways in Los Angeles.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

You said 101 is your least favorite. Least favorite.

[Chris Ryan]

The 101, 110 interchange in downtown Los Angeles, where you're coming down off of the 101 downtown in Los Angeles, is on your left. You're doing 60. In Sean's case, probably faster. And nine lanes are merging, and people are trying to get far right and far left to get to the 110 at the same time is always just a. Like, say a big prayer, close your eyes, blind, blast shield down, and just let the force take you.

[Sean Fennessy]

So you're saying you. You don't look when you're changing eyes.

[Chris Ryan]

I just fucking hate that merge, you know what I mean? It's just like. I just. I just think that we could have done better as a community.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree. When you look back at a film like LA Confidential, you see that the designs of these roadways, we did not imagine that the population of this city would triple or quadruple.

[Chris Ryan]

When you're looking at, like, Joan Didion essays from the 70s, and she's like, I was in. I was on, like, the Hollywood Hills, and I just puttered on over to Santa Monica in 20 minutes. I was like, what the fuck?

[Sean Fennessy]

When's the last time you just plopped down on your chaise lounge and read some Joan Didion? Just curious.

[Chris Ryan]

It's probably been a couple of years, but she's a big author.

[Sean Fennessy]

You'll just tuck in every once in a while, you know, slouching towards Bethlehem. I am curious.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm a big fan of her novels, thanks for asking. Play it as it lays, et cetera.

[Sean Fennessy]

As am I.

[Chris Ryan]

Democracy.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm not judging the woman. She's one of the greats. I heard some slander on Jam Session about her. Please settle down.

[Chris Ryan]

She unsubscribed.

[Sean Fennessy]

Unbelievable. So the best highway by far, by far in Los Angeles is the two.

[Chris Ryan]

Of course it is.

[Sean Fennessy]

The two is elite. That's.

[Chris Ryan]

That's only built for Cuban links.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's right.

[Chris Ryan]

That's where the heads. You and me, we go out. You can get close to 90 up there.

[Sean Fennessy]

I wouldn't do that.

[Chris Ryan]

But, yeah, I mean, you could.

[Sean Fennessy]

You could. You could.

[Chris Ryan]

Eric Jogan could put rap music on and drive into a mountain. It is the best road.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's the best road. We're Never on the 405. Everyone who has to be on the 405 wants to drive into the ocean at the end of the day. And I understand that. We're fortunate that we've been East Siders the entirety of our time here.

[Chris Ryan]

Is there a tunnel coming? I heard there's like. They're gonna. They're thinking about building a tunnel that would, like.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's extremely ominous to.

[Chris Ryan]

What I. I heard there was some, like, big project where they were gonna alleviate some of the Traffic on the 405.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did you hear that from the judge from who Framed Roger Rabbit? Who told you this?

[Chris Ryan]

The judge from Blood Marie and told

[Sean Fennessy]

me so many evil judges in the history of film and books.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not a big fan of the Grapevine. I'm not a big fan of the five.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Yeah, the five.

[Chris Ryan]

No, five's scary.

[Sean Fennessy]

134. I have some time for.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, wrong time of day. You get trapped up there.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, one of the things I really have a problem with on the 134, and even on the 101, if you're going really far north outside of the LA is, God, that sun will fuck you up. Like, it gets in your eyes. And you're right about that. I have no idea what's going to happen next. I'm listening to Chris Long. My eyes closed.

[Sean Fennessy]

What's going on with you and Chris Long?

[Chris Ryan]

I just think he makes the best podcast in America. Honestly, it's like four hours long. They go through every game. It's a football podcast called Green Light.

[Sean Fennessy]

Our listeners know. All right, don't talk. Don't talk down to the listeners.

[Chris Ryan]

You think all the people were like, I was promised top mob.

[Sean Fennessy]

What's going on? They're all. Well, they turned it off as soon as they saw your face. The job mob is dead today. Pch,

[Chris Ryan]

I think. Overrated.

[Sean Fennessy]

Overrated.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. As a driving experience, I think what they promised us, that feeling you're supposed to get of letting. Letting the engine rip on the open road and having the Pacific right there. I've very rarely experienced that.

[Sean Fennessy]

Can I tell you what's underrated? 105.

[Chris Ryan]

It's pretty good.

[Sean Fennessy]

105 on the way out to LAX.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. Going by USC.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Get a little Fast Track going. You have a Fast Track?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't even have Fast Track. I'm just like, charge me later.

[Sean Fennessy]

You just. You just pop in that lane.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're one of those guys.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not even one of those guys. They take your picture. They send you a bill, as we know.

[Sean Fennessy]

They're always taking a picture. Yeah. Yeah. You really are a Kyogan in that way. You'll just get in any lane. You get an HOV all by yourself.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I. Wait for my. If I. I only do HOV if I have a passenger. I don't. I don't. You do that.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Are you. Are you worried that Gavin Newsom is listening to this podcast? What are you so worried about? Any other thoughts on highways and roadways?

[Chris Ryan]

Do you have a favorite non Los Angeles highway? The one that you. You've always treasured?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, certainly no highways on Long Island. All of which should be destroyed immediately. You Guys should just take Northern State and Southern State Parkways. Delete them. The Long Island Expressway. Delete it.

[Chris Ryan]

Hey, does the party in Eyes Wide Shut happen in Long Island?

[Sean Fennessy]

I believe so, yeah. I think that's the insinuation. It's like the Hamptons. It's got a long, long ride out to that house you've been reshutting recently.

[Chris Ryan]

I did. I reshut for personal purposes, not for

[Sean Fennessy]

work, just to prep for. Wait a second. Yeah, just so you had all your prep for the end of this podcast. Were you in Eyes Wide Shut? Were you. Did you appear in a mask?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I would have been too young.

[Sean Fennessy]

Would you?

[Chris Ryan]

I think you were originally cast. I'm 99. I would have been 22. I would have been fine.

[Sean Fennessy]

You were originally cast in the Lilly Sobieski part, as I recall, and they and Kubrick last minute swapped you out. You would have been really good in that.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, man, that movie's fucking incredible.

[Sean Fennessy]

Were you like a really sweet faced kid?

[Chris Ryan]

I could try and find a picture if you want. As like a little kid.

[Sean Fennessy]

You can post that to see our heads. You don't need to show me that.

[Chris Ryan]

All right, well then you fucking ask.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know. What about you?

[Chris Ryan]

Were you always like a grouch umpire?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I was. I was. No, I was always. I was the same bratty, know it all that you, you know, today, know.

[Chris Ryan]

In love.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thank you. I appreciate that. Garbage crime.

[Chris Ryan]

Yep.

[Sean Fennessy]

So it's funny that I just mentioned Long Island. There is another movie that is out this weekend that Amanda and I will talk in more depth about on Monday, which is called how to Make a Killing, which is a soft remake of Kind Hearts and Cornets, the Alec Guinness movie starring Glen Powell. And that is also kind of a garbage.

[Chris Ryan]

Is it formally known as Huntington?

[Sean Fennessy]

So I'll tell you. Do you know why it is. Did I tell you this?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, because of Long Island.

[Sean Fennessy]

So the film is about a man who is. Should be the heir to a very wealthy family fortune, but his mother has been excommunicated from a family and so he has to go live in New Jersey. His family and these billionaires live in Huntington. Huntington, Long island, my hometown. So much of the movie is oriented around the idea of getting to Huntington. I do want to just state for the record, I don't think there are any billionaires living in Huntington. And there certainly were not when I was growing up. It is the, er, middle class town, Hamlet.

[Chris Ryan]

Is John Patton coming on your show to talk about this?

[Sean Fennessy]

He's not.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I Would I read he's from South Carolina. I would love to hear a bit about how he landed on it now. Just north to the Gold Coast. Cold Spring Harbor.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Maybe some.

[Chris Ryan]

Where'd Steve Cohen live?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, he lives in space. I think he's got a colony on Mars that he's been building out full of Juan Sotos that will be sent back down to Earth to dominate the National League east this year. But, yeah, Huntington, the movie was originally called that because of my hometown. I kind of enjoyed how to Make a Killing, I think, because my expectations were low, but we'll get more into that. So that movie came out. We've already talked about the rip, which is pure garbage crime. I mean, straight up a perfect example of the word.

[Chris Ryan]

It's garbage crime. I don't know if I would call it Garbage Heat specifically.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know what it is? It's garbage cops. And that's a different kind of thing. And, you know, I was just having a conversation with a prominent filmmaker who really enjoyed the rip, and he was like, name me three better cop movies in the last 10 years. And I was like, you know, they don't really make those anymore. I was like, end of watch Wind River. Like, it's a pretty.

[Chris Ryan]

Do you call Den of Thieves a cop movie?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't really. I mean, I guess it is, but it's more Big Nick's movie, so.

[Chris Ryan]

And Den of Thieves is Obviously before crime 101, the Chief Exemplar of Garbage Heat. This is a movie that in. In almost every aspect of it, from the cop and robber who have begrudging respect for each other or not, but especially they still have a relationship to using the urban landscape as its battlefield, to having high and very technically precise, well researched crimes committed by, like, the. The robbers themselves. So I came up with, like, a list of about 40 movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That have happened since he. I think you could argue that there are different eras for these. Personally, I would say Garbage heat starts in 2008 with the dark Knight. So this is the first time that I remember filmmakers really, really, really referencing Heat as soon as the press started for the movies. And obviously, Dark Knight features that incredible opening heist, which is very much like one out of Heat. I think a lot of the way that Nolan shoots architecture and characters against cityscapes is very much influenced by Michael Mann. But that was when I first remembered, like, oh, Heat's become a huge text for a new generation of filmmakers. Do you have another example of that that came earlier? That's like, what, 13, 12 years, 13 years after the Heat came out.

[Sean Fennessy]

That movie is so influential in so many different directions, the Dark Knight, that I think that that makes a lot of sense. There's no doubt that man is a huge influence, I think, to this day on Nolan Tenet. Even just in like, the general tone of seriousness that both men take to their films, where you're sort of like you are watching ancient and essential rituals between professionals. That's like a big part of both of their ethics, I think so, yeah. I don't know if I can think of another movie that comes before that that really changes anything Now. There are plenty of imitators that come in the wake of Heat, including Michael Mann imitating himself at times. But I think you're right that that kicks off a new era. So what does that era portend?

[Chris Ryan]

I think Man's place, because, like, when he came out, it was right after Last the Mohicans. And for my generation of viewers, I think man was kind of a lone swordsman. Like, he didn't feel part of a generation of filmmakers. He had emerged out of television. He emerged also out of like, fine arts school and like, you know, like, he had almost like a more of a Ridley Scott esque trajectory than he did maybe Scorsese, Spielberg, et cetera. And then after Heat becomes kind of a juggernaut in terms of like, being a huge crime film, he goes on and he makes a bunch of things that are ostensibly Oscar bait, with the exception of Collateral, but like Ali, like the insider, things like that. And the crime aspect of. Of Heat is sort of left to imitators to kind of build up over the years. I think that there are some movies here that I listed that could very well, you know, say we own the Night. James Gray. James Gray has a lot of different influences, but this is a film where it's very much like you've got these two guys on opposite sides of the law with an emotional connection with each other. Is Duval in Realm the Night? Is he the dad? There you go, bringing it all together. Yes, but that's a good example of a film where I would not necessarily call it garbage. And I'd be very curious to know whether James Gray was like, I had Heat in mind. That was a big, big thing for me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Or if he's like, I don't, I don't. I've never talked to. To him about Michael Mann. I mean, I know for those films, that film in the Yards, there was certainly a lot of Coppola as a big influence. And then I think I Think it's fair to assume that there's some Jerry Shatzburg in there. Scarecrow movie stuff like that also feels very resonant. But he's into the character of New York. I don't know if he's a cop movie head as much. French Connection, obviously. Hugely influential on all these movies, too.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this upcoming film also a crime film?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't think it's a cop movie, but I think it's a crime movie. Yeah, but it's about two brothers. But, yeah, that's a really good one. We Own the Night. And I guess that does precede the Dark Knight. You know, you've got the town here in 2010. I think that there's kind of a pop sensibility that that movie has that also has been pretty resonant. And I think where you see garbage crime resonating the most is not really in movies like Crime 101 or even in movies like the Rip, which went straight to streaming, but in a lot of, like, straight to VOD movies.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And there are a lot of movies that's like Gerard Butler, Samuel L. Jackson, and Mila Jovovich holding a gun on the poster. And it's like, you know, state of calm.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

And you're like, what is this? Where did this come from? Was this movie made in 14 days?

[Chris Ryan]

These are like red box movies where, like, they get. They get Aaron Eckhart, you know, to play a Serbian terrorist.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. And it's like he kidnaps a tow truck driver who has the keys to an armored car. And it's one crazy day with the Serbs. Yeah. So I find that the Town is very influential on those movies. And the Town, obviously A Big Heat is the central text.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm very honest about that. I think a couple of others that I wanted to shout out were more recent ones. A trio of movies Dragged Across Concrete, which is a Craig Zoller movie from a few years ago with Mel Gibson and Vince Vaughn, which is really one of the more unique crime movies I maybe I've ever seen. Zoller is. He also directed ryan and Soul Block 99 is that great. And has a new film that he's apparently finally starting production on. The Bookie and the Bruiser with Theo James and Vince Vaughn. Soon. Very, very, very unique writer and director. Oh, Bone Tomahawk is obviously the one he's maybe best known for.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

And this one is kind of half don Siegel, John Frankenheimer, 70s, hard boiled crime fiction. And then almost like an odd. I don't even know how to describe the comic sensibility of this movie, but there is, like, a very visual sense of humor that usually involves incredibly gory violence and dark irony, and it's pretty unique to it. But.

[Sean Fennessy]

But

[Chris Ryan]

the use of, like, this incredibly epic tapestry to tell a story about the underworld, I thought was very influenced by Heat, even if not necessarily explicitly visually.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is this a good time for crime movies?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I think that a lot of our favorite performers are very interested in being. Being in crime movies. I think it's always going to be a really attractive genre because I think everybody grows up watching these kinds of movies. And, you know, Austin Butler, and when he gets to this level of his career, what does he want to do? He wants to fucking do close gun training and. And kiss Joey Kravitz and run across the street. You know what I mean? Like, that's what we want to do.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So I think that you're always going to see an interest when it comes from actors. I don't know whether or not something like crime 101 is like, a viable studio proposition. I mean, I assume the $90 million price tag for this movie is one of those, like, inflated because it. Everybody got paid their entire fee for the entirety, like, of the lifetime of the movie. The way Netflix kind of works, I think it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think that's. My gut tells me that that's a factor. I don't know if they got paid their entire back end, but there was this expectation that the back end would not be as strong on the box office. And so the fact that it is going to be a big streaming movie probably very soon was built into the framework. But the other thing to consider is that they shot in Los Angeles and shooting in California is so expensive. And when you read stories about a movie like this or about one battle after another's budget. Those movies shot in California. Yes. Most movies don't. Most movies shoot in fucking Bulgaria, and they do that so they can halve the budget.

[Chris Ryan]

One battle is shooting up in Northern California in towns where they basically have the run of it. This is fucking shutting down Sunset Boulevard like, multiple times.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Which is, in 2026, incredibly difficult. Difficult? It's. You know, you mentioned Caught Stealing and Austin Butler and last year had this wave of movies that I thought were really interesting, where a lot of garbage crime stuff, maybe not all Heat led stuff, but in that realm, like no Other Choice, Caught Stealing, Shane Black's play, Dirty Roofman, Den of Thieves, Pantera Havoc, highest to lowest, all pretty garbage crimey and like, all kind of nodding to their 70s and 80s influences in a big way, all driven by auteurs. And weirdly, we are missing a class of filmmaker that is like Don Siegel. You know, like, I like almost all the directors who made the movies that I just mentioned, even if I didn't love all of those movies. But it's almost like those filmmakers need to take a step down class wise to get a movie made, and they're then leaning into the, like, the past to get this stuff made. So it's kind of. It feels like a very transitional moment in how and when we get these movies. To your point about Crime 101's budget and thinking about how it's. How it even got off the ground,

[Chris Ryan]

I. I mean, this half as a joke, but more filmmakers should be more like Guy Ritchie and direct more movies and take more bites at the apple. I don't really quite understand how Guy Ritchie gets two movies a year financed at this point, because I don't really think he's had a very significant box office hit in a while. Like, you know, he has successes.

[Sean Fennessy]

He.

[Chris Ryan]

He did the Gentleman, and the Gentleman became a Netflix series. He did, I think. What was the Jake Gyllenhaal war movie? The Vow.

[Sean Fennessy]

That was the. The Covenant.

[Chris Ryan]

The Covenant, yes. He obviously did Ambulance, which we thought

[Sean Fennessy]

I have here is Michael Baited Ambulance.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, sorry. He obviously did Wrath of Man, which I have here is Garbage Heat. But what he does is he's just like, I like making these movies and I'm gonna make one every nine months.

[Sean Fennessy]

So he kind of has two movies this year. Yeah. And he has a third coming maybe at the end of this year or 2027. And I think you're right. And he really. That's really more of a Don Siegel kind of air.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Where it's just like you're just kind of always working and some movies are classics and other movies you just forget about. He did make a movie last year. Do you remember what it was called?

[Chris Ryan]

Is this the one with Alan Ritchson, the Mystery of Extraordinary?

[Sean Fennessy]

No, no, that was the Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare. That was in 2024. Last year he made a movie called Fountain of Youth.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, right.

[Sean Fennessy]

With Natalie Portman and John Krasinski, written by James Vanderbilt, the man who wrote Zodiac.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you see this?

[Sean Fennessy]

I did. It's abhorrent. It's fake. National Treasure. It's terrible. And, you know, sometimes you miss. Yeah, sometimes you miss. Not a garbage crime movie. Nevertheless, there is something going on. Like Gus Van Zandt made Dead Man's Wire, which is like a Clear Dog Day Afternoon homage that just came out earlier this year. There's a movie coming out this year called how to Rob a Bank. What do we think that's gonna be? The Adventures of Cliff Booth is gonna be a crime movie. It's very clear from the trailer that that's got more of like a nitty gritty guys swinging hammers and firing guns at people kind of energy to it,

[Chris Ryan]

you know, so something's happening for sure. I think that this genre is probably in not a dissimilar place from horror where there is a market for, quote, unquote, elevated crime and elevated horror. A lot of that going through a 24. A lot of it about trauma, a lot of it about, like, you know, often set in pretty remote places. I would say that crime, when it's on, like the Jeremy Saulnier end of things, is borderline awards worthy, you know. But then there is like kind of this huge gap between Rebel Ridge and, to your point, like, the movies that seem to populate airline movie galleries where you're just like, wait, what? Anthony Hopkins did six of these? You know, like.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I watched a really interesting one last night that I checked in with you about, which is sort of a sort of garbage crime, sort of a political thriller called Sovereign.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, the Nick Offerman movie, which stars

[Sean Fennessy]

Nick Offerman as a kind of a resettler of the American idea and someone who wants to really operate outside of systems and, you know, very kind of like Jan6 coded, I would say, and his kind of collision course with a cop played by Dennis Quaid, who is in pursuit of him. And he's starting to build up this sort of, like, cult like faction. Reminded me a little bit of the order from 2024, the Jude Law and Nicholas Holt movie about a white power faction and the FBI. And they're also, I think it's an opportunity to, on a very small budget, create interesting character parts. Like, Nick Offerman is excellent in that movie, and Nick Holt is excellent in that movie. Now, those are showy parts about crazy zealots, but there's like, you can get away with something on a smaller scale too with these kinds of movies that you franchise. Movies can't support this kind of work.

[Chris Ryan]

So another film about zealots that made me. I'm thinking of, because you were talking about Sovereign is Standoff at Sparrow Creek, which is this Henry Dunham film starring James Badgedale that was made in like 2018 that I'm a huge, huge fan of about. There's a shooting Happens at a policeman. Like, a cop gets killed in a. I think it's Michigan. And then a militia gathers. Six members of a militia gather in a warehouse to figure out which one of them did it or is the mole. It's like, basically a mole hunt. And he is now Henry Dunham is finally directing a new film that's coming out, I believe this year, called Enemies, with Austin Butler and Jeremy Allen White and nsy. That sounds very garbage. Crime garbage.

[Sean Fennessy]

Heaty sounds very heatish. Yeah. He is so tough, man. Because it's a perfect object.

[Bart Layton]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

And we don't have a lot of movies like that. And I. I'll never forget asking Joanna Hogg, what's the last great thing you've seen? And she said, heat. And I was like, really? That was your answer? That's awesome. That was your answer. But, like, I think that moves beyond the realm of, like, guy. TNT cinema, you know? Like, it is a very. It is like.

[Chris Ryan]

Like kind of a spiritual movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is. It is. And. And kind of like intellectually rigorous in its way.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But it is kind of getting into that, like, Casablanca singing in the rain zone of, like, the Godfather. Like, we all agree.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is an American classic. And that's. It's unusual for something like that to happen so late.

[Chris Ryan]

It survived its own. Its critiques have now become parts of its charm. So, like, the Natalie Portman subplot has now almost become like camp, and people are like, no, no, no, you don't get it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Without Warren, this doesn't happen.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting aspect of it. Okay, so you. You have compiled some awards.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, yeah. Because, you know, we just did a bill pod the other week where we gave Heat awards to the NBA season. So I thought what I would do

[Sean Fennessy]

is the Knicks get any awards in that seat in that episode.

[Chris Ryan]

The Knicks have not been talked about.

[Sean Fennessy]

Why? What's going on with that?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. I think they're just kind of, like, boringly okay. But I know that there's been some controversies with. With Carl, with Kat and, like, Mike Brown not getting cats back. And dudes don't like Mike Brown. What's up with that? Are you guys okay?

[Sean Fennessy]

They're really not at their best when he's on the floor.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And we all know it. You know, we're all Team Landry Shamut. We want him to get more time. Looks great out there. It just seems like we got Alvarado now.

[Chris Ryan]

Weirdly, it's not your year, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, many people are saying this, but, you know, they said it last year and we were one fucked up Tyrese Halliburton shot from going to the NBA finals. So, you know. Oh, it's okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I came up with some Heat awards for garbage Heat movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

You did?

[Chris Ryan]

So first, this is just because we were rolling with Heat awards, so I thought this would be fun. The Venice Boulevard award for best opening heist set piece. Now this goes to all the movies that are not Heat that I feel like Heat influenced.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. I haven't looked at any of these.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. The obvious one here is the bank robbery that opens the town very, very self consciously, I think pulling tonally from the Venice Boulevard heist that starts Heat with the truck and the, the arma car. The couple of regular fellows award for best duo from opposite sides of the Law. I go Clive Owen and Denzel Washington from Inside Man. Whether you consider that Heat garbage heat, I don't know. But like that interaction of like, cop who does what he does best, robber who does what he does best. But then there are also forces outside of them that are a common enemy. In this case Nazis. And like these guys, their interactions are very memorable in the film. One of the great cop and robber.

[Sean Fennessy]

Can I complicate this award a little bit? I think there's a new nominee in this award, Hit Me, which is a little different from what you're describing, but related, which is Perfidia Beverly Hills and Colonel Stephen J. Lockjaw. Perfidia Beverly Hills, of course, who is pursued in the aftermath of a bank heist.

[Chris Ryan]

Of course.

[Sean Fennessy]

And someone who needs something from her and she needs something from him. And that is like the animating incident of that entire movie.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a great wrinkle.

[Sean Fennessy]

We don't think of one battle as a. As a Heat esque film, but it's

[Chris Ryan]

an LA heist movie. It is the Randy Newman I love LA award for best use of Los Angeles in a crime saga since Heat. I am going ambulance. Michael Bay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. That's the only other movie besides crime 101 where I'm like, how the fuck do they do this?

[Chris Ryan]

Well, if you, if somebody's about to write in and be like, they actually shot that in downtown Santa Fe, like, I don't want to know.

[Sean Fennessy]

It doesn't look like it. I don't think so. It never looks like it, honestly.

[Chris Ryan]

This is Jake Gyllenhaal and Yaya Abdul Mateen driving across LA in an ambulance stolen after a bank heist goes wrong. And cops are chasing them, the media is following them, drones are flying around them. It's just incredible car chase work. And I don't know necessarily that it had some of the same geographical accuracy as crime 101. Say. But it feels very exciting to travel across Los Angeles at that velocity.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a modern masterpiece.

[Chris Ryan]

The Bon Voyage Award for Heat in a different city. What do you think is the best example of like a garbage Heat movie taking place in another city? Is it just. I don't want to give town too many awards here.

[Sean Fennessy]

Logan. Lucky.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Brother.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know. On the racetrack. Is that in North Carolina? Charlotte. Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

That's a good one.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Let's go with that.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. The seven years in Folsom. In the Hole for three award for painstakingly researched Heat Ripoff. This is easily goes to the high school football ball knowledge and Den of Thieves.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think Den of Thieves aired by pivoting to pure crime and no longer being a cops and robbers movie?

[Chris Ryan]

I personally feel like it aired by going too fast and furious. I understood the desire to go international and I think that there was some interesting aspects to that movie. But it became too much like about honestly. Den of Thieves. Pantera. Feels a lot like the ending of Crime 101 where it's just like you and I. We're not so different.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

We're like. Let's get. Make sure everybody's happy at the end of this. I need you holding hands at lax. Staring into oblivion.

[Sean Fennessy]

Have you ever robbed a bank? No. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

The you do not get to watch my fucking television set. Award for Heat on the small screen. I know it's the big picture. I thought I would just shout out a couple TV shows that drew heavily from Heat.

[Sean Fennessy]

Interesting task.

[Chris Ryan]

Obviously.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I haven't seen it this past year.

[Chris Ryan]

000 yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Great show.

[Chris Ryan]

Selima's incredible globe trotting cocaine. Epic task. 000 True Detective season two set in Los Angeles about the criminal Vince Vaughn. Cop Colin Farrell. Their relationship and run down bars. I rewatched this show this season.

[Sean Fennessy]

I heard you were doing that. Yeah. Yeah. And did you feel as moved by the spirit as you were many years ago?

[Chris Ryan]

Miles better than I remember it. And would be like a pretty excellent show in this year.

[Sean Fennessy]

If we were season two. You mean?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. If it came out in 2026. I'd be like that's fucking great television.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Too old to Die Young Elite Nicholas Wending reference. This is more lynch than it is man. But there's a lot of man in it and there's a lot of LA in it. And there's a lot of Miles Teller spitting in it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Forgot about the spitting. Slightly deranged.

[Chris Ryan]

It's just important to know that Miles teller did a 10 hour Nicholas winning Refn sci fi cop epic that Amazon was like, for sure put it out.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, Refn's back. You know, he's going to be at Cannes for her private health.

[Chris Ryan]

What do you think Amanda would be mad if I was just, like, at Cannes, front row, reading the standing ovation.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, I don't. I think she'd be thrilled.

[Chris Ryan]

And the last one is Tokyo Vice, which Michael Mann also directed. The pilot of two seasons on HBO about the contemporary Japanese or relatively contemporary Japanese underworld.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did that come back for a second season?

[Chris Ryan]

It did.

[Sean Fennessy]

How was that?

[Chris Ryan]

It was good. It was quite good. Third season, it didn't come back for a third season.

[Sean Fennessy]

Was Elgor in the second season?

[Bart Layton]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

He plays Adelstein. Jake Alston, the journalist. He wrote the book that Tokyo Vice is based on. Sorry. And that's it. That's all I got.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought you had a final award here. Number seven.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, the Anyone wants some pie? Wingro award for character from a Heat ripoff that could hang in Heat.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, what do you got here?

[Chris Ryan]

This is tough because it's like Wayne Gross, such an indelible character, but I was going to throw. It's actually, like, contemporary with Heat, so it doesn't really work, but Mads Mikkelsen from Pusher, speaking of Nicholas, winning reference.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. He could fit.

[Chris Ryan]

Love to see him just.

[Sean Fennessy]

He could fit very well.

[Chris Ryan]

Join up with the crew.

[Sean Fennessy]

We need Mads in another crime movie.

[Chris Ryan]

What's he up to?

[Sean Fennessy]

I think he's about to embark on. He was just in. Bryan Fuller's directorial debut, Dust Bunny. Did you check that one out? No.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I did check out recently? Friday the 13th, Final Chapter was watching that again.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that six? What number is that? Four. Four.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

What happens in four? Corey.

[Chris Ryan]

Corey starts at the hospital. Jason's dead starts. It's Corey Feldman.

[Sean Fennessy]

Corey Feldman. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

And Crispin Glover.

[Sean Fennessy]

That one's good.

[Chris Ryan]

That one's great.

[Sean Fennessy]

I like that one.

[Chris Ryan]

That might be my favorite one.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think I have a real negative feeling towards, like, 6, 7, 8, though. So I always get a little bit tripped up after four of which ones I actually like and don't like because

[Chris Ryan]

New Blood is New.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well Takes Manhattan. I hate. Goes to Hell. I hate. Those are two. I just can't. It's fine. To me, it's not either of those movies because it's so camp. But there's things about it that are okay. Jason in space, Terrible.

[Chris Ryan]

Jason X. I was basically going through these long running horror franchises to get into fighting shape for Scream 7.

[Sean Fennessy]

So that's the next time you're gonna be back on the show. Our friend Tim Symons is in it. You think he's Ghostface?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know anything about what Tim does in this film, but I think if he's not, it's a waste of Tim Simons.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's so tricky with the height because if Tim, like, if Tim walked in here right now as Ghostface, I would know it's him.

[Chris Ryan]

But, like, he's my top. Mikey Madison. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's a lot of short people in the world. A lot of short people in that movie. Tim is a tall man.

[Chris Ryan]

All right. Don't give him a complex.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, he's a beautiful man. He's actually. He's in his. He. Speaking of. I mean, he's. Whatever he's doing is amazing. VW also, you know, they got those VW ads. You guys are VW buddies. Eskimo buddies for VW. Yeah. Okay. I'm really excited about Scream 7. I really need it to begin.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, there's a couple other things I wanted to bounce off you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Scream is just like all these movies too, by the way, where I'm just like, Scream 5 and 6 are now masterpieces in my head, even though when I saw them I was like, pretty cool. And now I'm like, I love those movies.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

So that's just boring.

[Chris Ryan]

And I like Scream 4, which.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know, I know you're the only guy who does a couple other things

[Chris Ryan]

I wanted to bounce off you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The dude who directed Seurat, Oliver Lache. Was he beautiful? Was he like a beautiful man?

[Sean Fennessy]

Are you asking because of the reaction that I had to him?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, it was twofold. And thank you for asking. We did discuss it a little bit in the episode. You know, he's 6 7. No, he is. He's 6 7. He has hair down past his shoulders. He looks like he's sort of like when you see Trey McBride out there catching passes for the Cardinals, where you're just like, who's going to stop this guy? Like, he's just a force.

[Chris Ryan]

Kyler Murray, truly.

[Sean Fennessy]

But as soon as they put Jacoby Brissette in there, they were fine. So he's got a physical bearing that is undeniable. Right. Where you're just like, this man could pick me up and carry me home. But also, he's so fucking sincere about his work. So since in a way that is like I found overwhelming because I'm such a irony poisoned, cynical motherfucker. And the, the reason I asked Oliver to come on the show is a friend of a friend emailed me and was like, I just took a meeting with Oliver Lache and he was just fascinating. And you just. I just wanted to see what it would be like to see you guys talk to each other. And I'm really glad that we did. I still don't even know if I like Seurat.

[Chris Ryan]

That's okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Have you seen it?

[Chris Ryan]

Have to only interview directors where you're like, that's a five star banger.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's true. But I only want to talk to people whose movies I like. I don't want to talk to a person and pretend I liked their movie or something. I never do that.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I have that problem too where sometimes I'm a little overly effusive. I'm talking to somebody where I'm like,

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know, you know, But I don't want to invite somebody on who I'm like. But his movie had some things in it and he was kind of excited to engage about like he was like, well what didn't work and why did you feel that way?

[Chris Ryan]

Interesting.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is a different kind of. Is very European, you know, and we don't have a video.

[Chris Ryan]

You're bringing that same adversarial tone to your conversation with Spielberg.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's going to be an interesting challenge to not full blown genuflect for an hour to not Chris Farley. So I got to get my thoughts in order beforehand, but I'm looking forward to it. I've spent my life preparing to speak with Steven Spielberg. So I'm looking forward to that.

[Chris Ryan]

I hope that all of our conversations have trained you for it.

[Sean Fennessy]

You've taught me more than you'll ever know. Is there anything else you wanted to hit on? You had said you had a few things.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I think I'm good. I was trying to think because you're not really watching any shows. I was going to just.

[Sean Fennessy]

No. Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but you're not up on industry, which is kind of tragic.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm two and a half episodes behind, unfortunately for me. Night of the Seven Kingdoms, as I said on the rewatchables, I'm really enjoying it. You weren't as into five. I thought five was phenomenal.

[Chris Ryan]

I was super into five. Andy wasn't into five.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought you said it wasn't Their best.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't think that the flashback was necessary at all. I didn't need his, like, his. His origin story of being kid in Flea Bottom.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you have any trauma?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but, like, it doesn't inform how I perform on this podcast.

[Sean Fennessy]

What is it? Would you say my trauma?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, when I was younger, I feel like I was really in the throes of like, a. Like an amazing baseball career. I'll tell you this. God's honest truth and my. So I'm playing baseball for this travel baseball team. They'll go on to win the city championship. A bunch of kids had gone to camp earlier in the summer, and the idea was like, you know, at some point they're going to come back and they'll also join the team.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yep.

[Chris Ryan]

But, like, to me, I put in the work. You know what I mean? I was handling pitchers. I was batting like, as high as third. I was really hot for a while in that season.

[Sean Fennessy]

What was your launch angle? You know, like, I was a line driver.

[Chris Ryan]

This was back in the day where we manufactured runs. We didn't just go swinging for the fences.

[Sean Fennessy]

How are you a base runner able.

[Chris Ryan]

I wouldn't say I was a stolen NSB threat, but I would make you pay if you weren't paying attention.

[Sean Fennessy]

Got it. Okay. More of a trickster.

[Chris Ryan]

If some kid was, like, picking boogers on the mound, I was gone.

[Sean Fennessy]

Vince Coleman, anyway, maybe not who you want to compare.

[Chris Ryan]

One of the assistant coaches on our team was a dad of a kid who went to camp, and when his kid came back, he was quickly inserted into my starting position. And that has followed me around ever since because I wonder whether or not I could have been JT Real Mudo if that hadn't happened.

[Sean Fennessy]

So you were Wally Pipped by a Nepo? Yeah, man, that's savage. That's.

[Chris Ryan]

Now they may go back and be like, Chris, in fact, was 2 for 30, you know, and we felt like we needed to make a change.

[Bart Layton]

I don't.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't remember.

[Chris Ryan]

They didn't give us. We didn't play for box scores. We played it for wins, you know?

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you ever feel like Andy just lets you lay out like he just did on the show?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe I have a different responsibility on that show.

[Sean Fennessy]

What is it to host?

[Chris Ryan]

To keep things moving, to bring interesting items to the show and bring any interesting facts I might find while looking on the Internet.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think Little League corner is a corner we should build here on the show for you so you can explore different elements?

[Chris Ryan]

Can we get a Thumbs up, thumbs down.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yep. Okay. Great. Little League corner. That was the first installment sponsored by Volkswagen.

[Chris Ryan]

It could be a decades long saga too, because what if I then start coaching Amanda's children?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, that will be happening, I think. Right? I believe T ball starts for that young man soon.

[Chris Ryan]

And like, I don't let Zach assistant coach because I'm like, we can't do to them what was done to me.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't think I realized how this resonated inside you. And I. I want to say thank you for sharing. It kind of feels like the end of crime 101, right? Where we kind of come to a closure.

[Chris Ryan]

Maybe this movie knew more about us than it. Than I think it did. You know, maybe it, it had more to tell us.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're the goat. Thank you. Let's go to my conversation with Bart. Lay. Back on the show after eight years. Bart Layton is here. Hi, Bart.

[Bart Layton]

Hey, man. Has it been eight years? What have I been doing?

[Sean Fennessy]

That is literally my question. So you were here for American Animals and also a heist movie. You're back with a heist movie. What was going on in the eight years?

[Bart Layton]

Well, so I also run a production company in the UK and we do, I guess the day job is a lot of docs. We do a lot of feature docs. And so I sort of do a lot of shepherding of that. And also I think with the movie thing, I think because we've had this company and that's sort of, you know, the, the bread and butter. I think with the movies, like, I have to find something that is so all consuming and so like I have to do this and then that takes a while, I guess I tend to, you know, I know as the writer, I'm not a. I kind of have this thing of shaking a script until nothing comes loose. And so that takes a while. So it took a while to write this and rewrite it and rewrite it again and you know, and then when you get your cast, things have a slightly different feel to it and you know, and so there's another pass to be done. So it was. But yeah, it was a labor of love in a way. And then. Which is all an excuse for basically just being a bit slack and taking too long off in between.

[Sean Fennessy]

But is your intention to be kind of working at this pace or do you want to make a lot of movies? I'm curious about that because it's been three features over the long period of time. But you have this full time day job.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah, I think now. And the company has grown and now there are people who are bigger and smarter than I am, who can, who can do it. And so I think I'll step back and I think, you know, the dream, I suppose, was always to make movies and especially for the theater. And now that has sort of come to fruition and, you know, via a long career in, in documentary making and then making that transition, which has been exhilarating and terrifying. I think now I will, I'll step up the pace a little bit. And also, like you having little kids, you know, when you go to make a movie, and especially in the States, you, you, you, you come back. Like when I came back from American Animals, you've been away for six months and that they've changed and you're like. So I, I felt like I wasn't willing to do that again and just miss that big, important chunk of.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's funny you say that. I was at the DGAS on Saturday and two different nominees there said that they were so grateful to their partners because they had little kids who were sick at home and they were just like, doing this job. You just are away all the time and it's not something you think about when you're a movie fan, right? You're just like, where's your next movie? Where's your next movie?

[Bart Layton]

And actually, weirdly, you sort of almost don't want them to be there. You know, if the kids had relocated to la, I would have almost been too split in the focus. You actually just want to do the job.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's so.

[Bart Layton]

And if you're the writer as well, you never get a day off and then half the time you're coming in from a night shoot when they're just waking up. So actually it's better just to say, I'll see you in a few months. But then, you know, you got to be prepared that you might miss like something mega, like their first words or their first steps or something and that you can never get back.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right?

[Bart Layton]

Right. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So what was it about that. So did someone hand you the Don Winslow story? How did it come across your path?

[Bart Layton]

Yeah, my agent said, sent it and was like, I think this has your name on it. And I think there was a bit of a kind of bidding war going on and I felt like I wasn't likely to be a big enough name probably. But I read it and I remember kind of getting two thirds of the way through and sort of thinking, wow, this is actually kind of brilliant. And I really hope it has a great sort of third act. And it did. And it had this great twist. And I thought, okay, this could be, if handled right, one of those sort of movies that I remember completely falling in love with as a. As a young person or as a kid. You know, those movies you went to see maybe with your dad or whatever, and they felt incredibly memorable in the 80s or 90s. And they were grown up, but, you know, and they were sophisticated, but they were incredibly compelling. And. And I just thought if I was ever gonna get to make a kind of a movie of scale, you know, a Hollywood movie with real movie stars, it would wanna be one of the kinds of movies that I would wanna go and see. And that I felt was slightly not disappearing, but that we were just getting fewer and fewer of those. And I remember them from, you know, being at university and going to see, like, True Romance or Collateral or out of Sight or one of the. And they just felt like such a treatment, and yet they were smart as well. So, yeah, I think that was the thing of thinking, maybe if I do a decent job of the screenplay, it could have something of that quality to it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, you mentioned you were concerned because there was a bidding war. So how do you stand out? How do you become the person that they say, okay, it'll be yours?

[Bart Layton]

I may have got this wrong, but I think by some crazy coincidence, Don Winslow got invited to another writer friend's house who does these sort of, like, surprise screenings of. Of random films. And he screened American Animals. And it was just. And it was either Don or his manager. Anyway, one of them was completely blown away by it. And. And that was the funny thing about that film. Even though I think I probably would have liked more people to see it at the time in the cinema, it did have this kind of interesting life, especially among actors and others. And so there was a lot of, I guess, enthusiasm around it. So it was always easy to kind of pick up the phone. And I think that was just like. They saw that there was something a little maybe different about it and thought, oh, let's let him have a crack at it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember when we talked about it eight years ago, I was like, there's something a little different about this movie. There's something special about this movie. And I've been waiting for you to make another movie, to be honest with you. So technically, the three. I see the three movies as all kind of heist movies, like I said. And the imposter 2 has that feeling of stolen identity, stolen life, stolen conceit. So what's going on under the surface, why is that something that you are

[Bart Layton]

drawn to over and over? It depends how deep you want to go. I grew up with a mother who was a theater director who made very fringe theater. So, and she was, she was a single mom and I shared her with the theater. And she made these really out there, very beautiful, very artful productions, but there wasn't a big audience for it. And I think I had this sense of, you know, like, how do you find a way to do something which is a genuinely kind of commercial proposition? And then if you can do that successfully, you might be able to start to smuggle in the ideas that you're interested in talking about. And I think, you know, American Animals was really, you know, I think that's the great thing about a heist film as a structure. You get to start with a question that everyone knows, you know, they're going to wait till the third act to find out the answer to. Right. So you've got this inbuilt kind of what's going to happen next? And I think for me, whether it's because of, you know, my childhood sitting in the back of, you know, endless rehearsals in freezing cold London basements and thinking, and then an audience not showing up and then thinking, you know, I would love to have that same creative license, but maybe find more of a kind of rollercoaster framework to then start to think about, you know, these other things. And you know, American Animals are really about lost young men who'd been promised a so called special life that we all feel is the divine right. And yet, of course it isn't, especially in a culture which is telling you that if you're not somebody, you're a nobody. And, and that I thought was the thing to that that kind of heist movie could actually really delve into, you know, and it was about privilege and it was about, you know, you know, I remember talking to you at the time and you know, the reason I made that and included the real kids in it was because, you know, when they, you know, their major problem was that they didn't have a problem in life, but needed one to be interesting. And I think with this I saw a similar way of having a framework which was going to be like, you'll get all the things. Well, hopefully you agree you get all the things you want from a really fun night out of the cinema. You get, you know, it's a, you know, there's, there's action in it, there's some really tense set pieces and it's a constant sort of build of suspense and all. All of the things that hopefully you want. But also, I think I thought, you know, maybe there's an opportunity to talk about, you know, the la. That culture of status anxiety. And if you let that be the kind of. If you let that pressure dictate the decisions you make in your life, you might find yourself at a place where you've given up everything to have that kind of status and all of the kind of trappings of success. And then you realize maybe it's not working for me. And that. That. So the characters are all at that kind of crisis point.

[Sean Fennessy]

One of the things that really jumps out is that every character in the film is kind of consumed by class in some way, like, mostly aspirationally, except for Monica, Barbara's character, who's kind of like, this doesn't matter. Why is this so important? And I find that to be a fascinating thing to do, especially in a heist movie, obviously, which is just all about the acquisition of wealth. But the Mike character is a curious, curious guy. And I would say it's mostly unexplained what is going on with Mike, whether there is, like, he is afflicted by something. Obviously he has a past that is somewhat troubled, and he had some struggles as a young kid. But I'm curious, like, what you and Chris Hemsworth talked about to kind of. Because you can see Chris is making some choices, but not overplaying it. You know, not like there's not a lot of explaining what is going on. So I'm curious about that.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah. I mean, what. Because I guess I come from docs. My first sort of port of call was to try and find real people who are representative of all of the different characters in the movie. So believe it or not, you can't. There are real jewel thieves out there, and the successful ones are roaming around and the unsuccessful ones are in prison. And you can talk to them, you can write to them. And when we began that research process, a lot of the same things came up, which was a history of foster care, some domestic violence, the absence of fathers, and the absence of kind of adults who were caring. And so Chris and I started looking at a lot of that research. And then we. We looked a lot of. There's a brilliant website app called Soft White Underbelly. You might know it, which is a lot of testimonies from people who've been through those sorts of homes and experiences. And so we never. Like, at one point, you know, I think Chris was like, do we need a scene? Don't we need a scene which is like the goodwill hunting scene. If you don't understand what I've been, you know. And I. I felt like there has to be a more economical way of doing that. And what you see in Chris's performance, I think is a guy who is not your kind of. He's not the James Bond of jewel thieves. You know, he's a guy who's come from trouble and is vulnerable and is not confident in every situation. And so a lot of that was done with workshopping some of those testimonies and trying to base all of the character, you know, Ruffalo's character. All of that came from interviews I'd done with real LAPD officers. Nick Nolte's character, we went deep into the fences who have this kind of fatherly influence over all of the. They're kind of like Fagan kind of Oliver Twist characters. So all of that was very real and based in, you know, a ton of research, which we did. And I thought much. I think. I think one of the things that maybe has happened in recent times is maybe audiences aren't given quite as much respect as, you know, and they're sort of spoon fed all of this backstory which is gonna generate, you know, empathy. And I think I wanted to do that in a much more subtle way where you'll get it from his. From his posture, from some of the behavior, rather than a big soliloquy, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I really appreciated that. It's something that I genuinely hate in most modern movies. Not as often in a crime film. You find in a lot of horror films these days where there's a lot of. Kind of explication of past woe that then communicates. So anyway, that aspect of it is really nice. But having made all these heist movies, is there a secret now that you think you need to make one successful? Like something that has to occur?

[Bart Layton]

I sort of feel like I'm more in the kind of. I don't know if it's like anti heist, but I sort of feel like there, you know, with this. I suppose I really wanted to keep one foot in. In the real world. And I think, you know, when you have big movie stars and you have big resources, it's really tempting to go into whether it's an action sequence or whether it's just a plot thing, that. That suddenly you're as. As an audience, you're kind of like, oh, right, okay, I'm now in a movie, so I'm not really playing along. And you have Less skin in the game. Whereas I felt like. And I would always say to all of the actors, you know, and even when we were planning some of the, you know, the big kind of stunty sequences, let's just keep this back. Bring it back to what would really happen and what would this really feel like. And I think the potentially the benefit of that is you as an audience feel way more connected in. To the characters and you feel like you're right in it, rather than kind of on the outside watching. And even some of those great 70s movies, which I adore and which were probably influences for this, you know, whether it's French Connection or, you know, some of the Billy Freakin things, you know, often that final wrapping up is a kind of shootout in an industrial space. And then you're in a slightly kind of like, oh, I'm now just watching this all get tied up. And again, I wanted it to be much more about a kind of intensity of suspense and emotion than action, if that makes sense.

[Sean Fennessy]

It does. There's a real meticulousness, though, to that first sequence where I have not seen a robbery like that and it seems very real. And I don't know how much of that comes from Don's story, which I haven't read, and how you construct that. But the level of the strategy of the character is fascinating. And then the way that you kind of show it to us. So it's rare to see something new like that. Maybe you can talk through that sequence a little bit for us.

[Bart Layton]

Sure, yeah. No, that's, that's, that's. None of that is in the. Is in the short story. And, and funnily enough, it's really fun when you just start kind of, I guess, internally spitballing ideas of like, how would this work? And what would be the cleverest, most meticulous way of doing this. But again, not getting into kind of movie territory where it's unrealistic or whatever. And, but, but what was interesting is like, I would write all of this stuff, you know, and like, so, for example, like, he has an identical car to the courier. And what he's going to do is he's going to intercept the courier. He's going to put the courier in the trunk of his car and it's an identical car and he's going to turn up basically as the. He's actually the follow car for the courier. So he's, you know, and he's going to show up. And to all intents and purposes, it's exactly the same car that they're expecting he's replaced the career and all this. So I would come up with all this stuff which kind of sounded slick and movieish, but then I would be like, do a reality check. Then I would go to some of the guys down in, like these really high end jewelers in la. I won't mention exact names, the stories they would tell of the holdups that they had been victims of, really and truly. Like, one guy said they were sending. This is a real story. He was sending a package, I think, to Saudi Arabia worth tens of millions through FedEx. And the FedEx guys turned up a bit early. So they let them into the holding area, they did the IDs, then they let them into the showroom. And then the FedEx guys pulled the guns out and like hijacked the whole place, took everything and went. And then the real FedEx guys turned up 20 minutes later. That's not something I made up. That's that that stuff is really happening. And so there was a lot where I would be generating all of these quite slick, kind of, you know, pretty fun robberies. And then I would go and have a chat with someone and they'd come up with something true that was kind of almost like more outlandish.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's fascinating. I think it's also really good character development because you're like, well, this guy clearly has been studying this for a long time. Like, there is a level of detail in this plan that is rare. A lot of movies, as you say, start with shootouts. You know, they start with, you know, a grab and go, basically. And this is a totally different kind of a character.

[Bart Layton]

Totally. And, you know, and again, not naming names, but one of the guys who I based Chris's character on, who's currently serving time, he used to raid mansions and he would do an insane amount of research on the movements of the inhabitants. And he would look at their Instagram. He knew where they were going, what they were up to, and all the rest of it. And he would be, he would stake it out and all the rest. So, you know, it was about a very meticulous guy who's got a kind of code of conduct, but also like, he's also not infallible. You know, he's a little more like you and I, if we were gonna go and rob a bank or still

[Sean Fennessy]

jewels, maybe more like you and not like me. So you keep saying, like, you find these people. And I know you're a documentarian, you've done a lot of true crime work over the years, but like, what do you mean you find these people? Like, where do you find them? How do you get in touch with them?

[Bart Layton]

Well, like, for example, you know, if you're a doc researcher, you'll go. You'll look at. I mean, it doesn't have to be limited to la, but I kind of wanted a Californian angle on it. And you'll look for news stories or court records of people who've been sentenced for theft of jewels or for literally holding up a courier between an airport and a destination. And then you'll find their names, and then you'll find out what they got sentenced to, and then you can find out where they ended up serving their sentence, and then you can send them a letter. And most of them have a bit of time on their hands.

[Sean Fennessy]

And do they often want to speak to you?

[Bart Layton]

Almost always, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's so interesting. How do you clarify whether or not you feel like someone is telling you the truth in those circumstances?

[Bart Layton]

I guess it very much depends on whether you're using it, whether you're making a documentary or whether you're making a fiction. And if it's a doc, you have to do your due diligence, obviously, but with this. Because really what I was looking for is the kind of foundations for a character or just to have. When you're writing, it generates great material or inspiration. You don't have to kind of go literally. You know, most criminals you talk to are going to give you a sob story as to why they ended up. But what I did find is there was kind of commonality. You know, there were the same. You know, there was a repetition of some. You know, the fact that many of these guys had been in. In foster homes and that hadn't had a. A kind of proper adult supervision. And the fences, like the Nick Nolte character, they often sort of fill that void a little bit. They come in, you know, these kids have come in with a Rolex watch. The fence says, oh, okay, this is good. And then if they're very switched on, the fence will tell the kid or the young man, hey, listen, here's a job you can do. And so this relationship begins. Starts out really small. And even the fences actually often have legitimate careers at the same time or have worked in the jewelry industry for a while. And Nick Nolte wanted to go deep. I mean, he really wanted all of the material that I'd got.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's a good segue to the. I hope you don't take this as an insult, but this is like an overqualified cast for a movie like this. You know what I mean? It is like a very. Lots of Oscar nominees. And whenever you hear about something like that happening, it's usually like all the stars are like, I wish there were more movies like this and I want to be in movies like this. And why doesn't Hollywood make movies like this? And I know that's something you've been told talking about even around this film, but why did Nick Nolte and Hallie and Chris and Mark and all these people want to be a part of it?

[Bart Layton]

I honestly think that it's a bit of what you said. I think there was a sense that maybe those that everyone remembers and loved those kinds of movies and they were sort of sexy and they were compelling and maybe they're not making as many or maybe they're not making them for the cinema. And it was that weird thing of like, I don't think I expected when I sent the script out that it would be like everyone we sent it to as like a first choice would say, yeah, I'm in. In fact, you know, with Chris, he kind of got it. You know, he read it. And then I got a call saying he's read it and he is dying to chat. Would you meet him? And I was like, of course. Because I wanted someone who had, who, you know, had a kind of iconic movie star quality. But I also wanted a version of Chris that we'd never seen before, which was going to be really demanding of him. So, yeah, I think it was like a. I think it was a lot to do with that combination of people reading it, feeling like, oh, when was the last one of these? And also, I guess that they'd seen American Animals and the Imposter and they loved them and so that was helpful. And, you know, like, with Nick, it isn't a big role. And same with Jennifer Jason Leigh, but I guess if you don't ask, you don't get, right? So you sort of think, well, who would be the absolute perfect person if you could have anyone? And then the worst that's going to happen is they'll say, it's not for me and look amazing. Everyone's like, yeah, let's go.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, obviously it just always elevates the material when there's someone who's so special like that. So you're not from Los Angeles and you're making an LA crime film. There is a long lineage of wonderful LA crime films. Not all of the filmmakers are from la. You mentioned Billy Friedkin earlier. He of course made to Live and Die in la. He's from Chicago, but that's like. That is an amazing representation of that city at that time. I wasn't born here, but I've been here almost 15 years now, so I feel very attuned to LA. And I think he really did a good job of capturing what this place is like. But you don't live here. I don't know how often you're here. How do you. How do you do that? Well.

[Bart Layton]

Oh, well, thanks for that, I guess. Like, I'm a menace with, like, prep, I think, because honestly, I felt quite out of my depth depth, you know, like, I'd bitten off a lot when it. When it became a. You know, you're writing in a vacuum, and then suddenly it becomes this big movie. And I've done a couple of docs and the American Animals and. And I. So I do just a relentless amount of prep and I go like. I just scouted and scouted. And I also felt like, you know, if you spend time, you know, if you're scouting with people from LA and you, you know, you understand how the city works for them and what are the corners that maybe haven't been photographed before and getting that sense, you know, because as you said, a lot of it is about class and it's about the social strata, the rich, the. You know, there is a gaping and increasing chasm between, you know, the impoverished and the ultra wealthy. And also there's a kind of topographical divide in terms of where they actually,

[Sean Fennessy]

yeah, you're more elevated if you have

[Bart Layton]

more power and you're more elevated and you're also more isolated. And that's the crazy thing, you know, And I. And I also realized, you know, like, the. You talk about that opening sequence, it starts off in downtown LA at an immigrant family's jewelry store. And that is a real jewelry store owned by a real Iranian family. And in the 45 minutes or however long it takes for a diamond to be sourced from there and arrive at the very fancy jewelry in Calabasas, that diamond will have increased in value by. I don't even want to say how much, because you can be damn sure that the Kardashians aren't going downtown to that store to buy that diamond. So that story, I was like, how do I tell that story in a really compelling way? And again, it comes back to this thing of, like, the smuggling in of all of this stuff and at the same time, finding all of those places that hopefully, if you're from la, you recognize and you see that there's, like, truth in those spaces. And I was pretty like, you know, there were conversations about, can we do it? And, you know, we could have made the movie twice in Australia for the money, you know, but that was a deal breaker for me. I was like, there's just no way. And also coming from docs, it's very hard, you know, Like, I don't. All of the car stuff, none of that is blue screen. Even the car chases, which are really like, we went as kind of close to the danger line as you can go. All of that is in camera, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it really. It improves it. Seeing the entryways to the highways that I am on every day makes the movie feel more authentic and more real. So. So I guess when you're working at this scale now, how do you know you're getting what you need since you have not done a movie that has these kinds of insane car chases in a major metropolis?

[Bart Layton]

You know, I remember saying, my producer, who I brought onto this, who also is like a British. Like, she's done the best of the British indie film, you know, which is, you know, Shane Meadows, Andrea Arnold. So we both were like. And I was. When I was freaking out, going, oh, man. Like, I'm way out of my comfort zone. She was like, listen, it's the same work. Ultimately, you might have hundreds more people and more toys, but it's the same work. It's actors in a room and you know how to get that performance. And if you hire this kind of cast, it makes it easier. And then with the, like, car chase stuff, you know, as long as you've got a really clear point of view, you know, as long as your objective is like, you know. And that could be as simple as, what would this really feel like if I wasn't James Bond and I was driving a car 80 miles an hour through lo. Chasing a motorbike and all the rest of it, what would that feel? And then you start to think, all right, how do I do this? So we built technology that would allow us to put a kind of proxy handheld camera in a car with Chris Hemsworth when he's really driving that fast and very narrowly missing oncoming precision drivers, you know, so. So. But there's always a temptation. You're in a meeting where someone says, oh, wait, what if the motorbike wheelies over, like, three lanes of traffic and goes that, you know, and at that point you go, that would be very cool. But that's a different movie. That's John Wick or something, which I love. As well, super fun. And also, you know, you can do things with cameras, can go in and out of fake windscreens, which you replace and do these amazing, you know, And I was like, we're not doing that. We're doing something that is more visceral. So I think as long as you have a pretty clear sort of, you know, and everything comes down to, like, character, you know, And I think that was something that someone like Billy Friedkin was incredibly good at, you know, like, if you want to know how Popeye Doyle is gonna drive, that's gonna dictate the whole language of that car chase or whatever it is.

[Sean Fennessy]

So one of the reasons why there aren't as many movies like this is because it's harder to sell a movie like this. So how do you think about movie like this goes out in the world. You went through it with American Animals. You're like, I wish more people saw it. But then it catches a word of mouth over time.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Are you like, box office nervous? Are you excited?

[Bart Layton]

A little bit. I mean, I. I'm both, you know, I. I'm kind of pinching myself to even be, you know, I'm driving around the layer. There's billboards, there's buses with the poster on. You know, I really hope, like, I. I made it because I wanted to see this kind of thing in the theater. You know, we had. We did a junket in LA in New York, and loads of journalists came in and they were like, thank you for bringing this back.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Bart Layton]

And that's the best you can hear. I don't know. Like, I really hope that there's still. People are still going to want to go to the cinema for this kind of thing, because it's sort of some of the most fun you have, you know, I mean, you remember, like, you know, Heat is a different thing. And, you know, you know, I certainly felt like you're making things, it casts a long shadow. You don't want to be influenced, but you don't want to be emulating. You just want to do your own thing.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah,

[Bart Layton]

but of course, you know, like, I don't know, like, I remember going and seeing that in the cinema and thinking, wow, you don't get to have much more fun in the cinema than this. And I just wondered where they had gone. So, yeah, I'm nervous, but I'm also like, just the fact that we got here, that the studio have been as supportive and as in love with it as they've been to give it a big release and all of that. You know, expensive marketing and stuff, but, you know, there's no guarantee. So in a way, I feel like, take the win. You know, the fact that we're here, the fact we had this crazy.

[Sean Fennessy]

You got to make something.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So did you start working on the next thing? Well, it's. You said it's not going to be eight years, so what do you. What are you doing?

[Bart Layton]

There's a couple of things which are just. Yeah, there's a. There's a couple of things which are exciting and there's a kind of like, not. Not quite at liberty to talk about them, but. Yeah, it definitely won't be eight years.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. I don't remember what you told me eight years ago. I should have looked that up.

[Bart Layton]

Oh, wow.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, man.

[Bart Layton]

I've been. Cause of the kids getting to a certain age, I've been going back and trying to introduce them to things. So the last great thing, literally the last great thing we saw was the Graduate. I played that for them.

[Sean Fennessy]

Interesting. Was that because they're getting ready to go to college or.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah, one of them is.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Bart Layton]

But also just like, I don't know why that's not on more People's top 10 of all time list. It is such an extraordinary thing. And then I played them before that, Dog Day Afternoon, which is, like, for me, such an influential thing. But. Yeah, so the Graduate, the last. But if. Do you mean like the last thing that's been.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, those are both good. I'm curious what the kids thought of them, though.

[Chris Ryan]

The.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah, the kids were completely smitten with the Graduate. I mean, like, the middle one, who's 15, was like, that's straight in at my greatest top film of all time.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's crazy. I mean, it's 60 years old now and it still feels very modern. Late 60s. Yeah, it's like 67, 68.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah, yeah, it's still. And, you know, the pace of it is kind of phenomenal. And. Yeah. You know, like I say, I think maybe in recent times we've got a little bit kind of like this tendency, you know, in terms of, like, maybe the Hollywood stuff, maybe a little bit more of a tendency to prioritize kind of action intensity over emotional intensity. And I still think if you look at those movies that had took the time to really get you into caring about it, you know, your overall experience was much bigger. And I also think the cinema is just this thing that you can't Replicate. Because you watch things in. Like, for example, Poor Things was really interesting. I remember everyone I spoke to who saw Poor Things in the cinema was like, it's a knockout. And a lot of people I spoke to who watched it on a screen or at home were really, like, middling about it or even didn't finish it. And I think there is this. People forget, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. This is a whole other rabbit hole. But I've been thinking about this a lot because I watch so many movies and I love to only go to screenings in theaters because you are held captive, like, you are literally a prisoner to what is happening. And there's so many demands on our attention in a way that even just sitting in your house, which used to be a nice thing, you'd turn on your TV and watch a movie. Now that feels harder than it ever has been. So I hear what you're saying, and it's great that your movie is going into a movie.

[Bart Layton]

What was the last great thing you saw?

[Sean Fennessy]

I watched Live and Die in LA to prepare for this conversation. Just to get my head. Yeah. Just to get my head on straight about crime movies in LA and everything.

[Bart Layton]

So, you know, I got after American Hounds, I got. You probably need to wrap up, but I got summoned to lunch with Billy Friedkin.

[Sean Fennessy]

Tell me about it.

[Bart Layton]

Yeah, well, I obviously, like, you know, he's a legend and he was a hero. And I went up to his place, which. Which is. Was literally, like, if you said. Right. Like if you said to your art department, build me like the mansion of. Because he was married to Sherry Lansing, who is obviously, you know, and he

[Sean Fennessy]

has like the Roman columns and everything.

[Bart Layton]

Every, you know, chagal paint, but like a mishmash of every taste and every kind of like. And it. And gold stuff everywhere. It was wild. And obviously what I wanted to. To come out of the lunch was that he thought I was like the. You know, that we were best friends. So I was a bit like, I don't know. I. But also I just gave. I just had a barrage of questions and I was asking him obviously about how they did, you know, and this was way before I had plans to shoot a car chase, you know. But how did you do that? Because it looked so dangerous. And the truth was that back then they didn't have the kind of health and safety like, oh, yeah, it was just dangerous. It was just dangerous crossed in front of that same thing. Miracle.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Bart Layton]

That people didn't get, you know, in both that and French Connection.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Bart Layton]

So it wasn't very useful in Terms of, like, coming out with, like, the secret to how you do. Because it was like, well, you basically just nearly, you know, kill people and hope you get away with it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Whereas, well, you know, it's funny you say that. I was reading about it afterwards, and he said, and I don't know how this compares to you doing something like this. You know, it's 40 years later, too, so the rules have changed so much. But he shut down the 7:10 for two consecutive Saturdays and Sundays to do that, you know, the reverse car chase sequence. And then he had the cars going in the wrong direction in the film just because he wanted to confuse the audience. So it was like, you know, so like, the car, it's like, in. They're driving like it's in England, in la, in the movie, which you don't even really clock until someone tells you that, and then you're like, like. So you can't shut down the 710 for two full days in Los Angeles in 2020.

[Bart Layton]

I mean, you know, this is, you know, crime 101, and it's all about, you know, this string of robberies on the 101 freeway. And we were doing this big sequence on the 101, and at the last minute, like, what is it called? What's the big, you know, LA Police, you know, that deals with all of that. Anyway, they were like, no, the last minute. No, you're not gonna do that. So then we had to basically shut down, like, blocks and blocks and blocks of, like. I think it was Lancashire Boulevard or whatever. And. Yeah, but when you lock that up, you're not just locking up the junctions, you're looking up. Because if someone comes out of their apartment to walk a dog and you're blazing through in the way that we were you. So. So it was. And also you're lighting it, and we're lighting for miles, and we're getting all of the shops to keep their lights on. And all of the sketch and the scale of it is mega. And it's also wildly exhilarating. But we're doing it, and I'm sure those poor people who live on there were not thanking us for it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Anyway, it was worth it.

[Bart Layton]

Thanks, brother.

[Sean Fennessy]

Good to see you.

[Bart Layton]

Oh, great to see you, mate. Thanks for having me back.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thank you to Bart Layton. Thank you to cr. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders. Thanks to Steve Allman for filling in on this episode. Thanks to Lucas Cavanaugh for production support. Next week, we're circling back to Sinners, including a dive into the film. Have you revisited Sinners recently?

[Chris Ryan]

No, but I was planning to this weekend with my wife, who has not seen it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I would encourage people to do that in part because I had an amazing conversation with Autumn Derald Arkapaugh, the cinematographer of the film, and she was super cool and super nerdy about how she does what she does.

[Chris Ryan]

So is that part of the podcast?

[Sean Fennessy]

Part of the podcast. So we will see you then. Monster Energy Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the og. It kicked off this whole Zero Sugar Energy drop thing, but Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava, and they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the White can branch out.

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