‘Hamnet’ and the 10 Best Performances of 2025. Plus: Kleber Mendonça Filho on ‘The Secret Agent.’

Summary

The Big Picture — December 12, 2025

Episode: ‘Hamnet’ and the 10 Best Performances of 2025. Plus: Kleber Mendonça Filho on ‘The Secret Agent.’

Hosts: Sean Fennessey (A), Amanda Dobbins (B)

Guest: Joanna Robinson (C)

Filmmaker Interview: Kleber Mendonça Filho (D)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into two of the year’s most acclaimed films—Chloé Zhao's adaptation of Hamnet and Kleber Mendonça Filho’s The Secret Agent—as well as a robust discussion of the year’s 10 best performances (with lists from each host and guest). Sean, Amanda, and Joanna review Hamnet's impact on contemporary cinema, its artistic strengths and flaws, and its awards chances, before turning to an in-depth filmmaker interview with Filho. The episode is rich in passionate debates, emotional insights about the movies and performances, and plenty of behind-the-scenes anecdotes from screenings and awards season buzz.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Opening Banter & Movie News ([00:14]–[12:56])

• Spielberg’s New Film ("Disclosure") Teased
  • A mysterious billboard announces Spielberg’s new potential blockbuster, Disclosure, rumored (though debunked) to be a quasi-sequel to Close Encounters ([01:45]–[05:13]).
    • Amanda: “I appreciate a date. As you know, I'm a planner...so thank you for the specificity.” ([03:18])
  • Spirited jokes about billboards, Times Square, physical media, and the mythic "king of 4Ks" moment ([03:35]–[04:17]).
  • Joanna on Spielberg: “I think it's fun that there's mystery around it.” ([04:30])
• Trailer Reaction: Supergirl in the DCU
  • The trio analyze the just-released Supergirl trailer, with tepid excitement for Millie Alcock’s casting and skepticism about the film’s originality and emotional depth.
  • Sean: “It looks kind of standard, which is not what you want.” ([08:37])
  • Amanda: “The more we got into the lore...the more interested I am in a novel.” (on superhero fatigue) ([11:48])
  • Bit of a side tangent about fictional elements like adamantium, vibranium, and “whale brain juice,” exemplifying the show’s loose, referential tone.

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II. Hamnet In-Depth Review ([12:56]–[49:12])

Context & Approach ([12:56]–[15:42])

• Directed by Chloé Zhao, adapting Maggie O’Farrell’s novel about the Shakespeare family, focusing on the death of their son Hamnet and its artistic/psychological fallout.
• Sean confesses to knowing little of the actual Shakespeare biography, entering the film “without expectations.”
• Shot by Lucas Zahl, scored by Max Richter, and starring Jessie Buckley and Paul Mescal.

Critical Perspectives

Joanna Robinson ([15:58])

• Praises Hamnet for capturing the communal, transcendent power of theater—makes a strong case for its importance, while stating it's “not the best movie” of the year but “the most important for the conversation about going to the movies.”
  • She expresses concern the film is being made to sound too “high-arc” and unapproachable.
    • "What I think this movie has to say about the universal idea of grief and...how we use art to process that is really accessible." ([16:33])

Amanda Dobbins ([18:04])

• Found the first hour 'resistant,' especially due to “woo woo energy” in both character and filmmaking; at times, the grief theme is “very tell, don’t show.”
• But: “The ending is spectacularly moving… I have ugly cried both times...once they are in the Globe Theatre, it's really amazing stuff.” ([18:04])
• Acknowledges the final 30 minutes are “primal” and effective even after multiple viewings.

Sean Fennessey ([20:56])

• Echoes Amanda’s feelings: “The first hour a crushing bore...Zhao applying her filmmaking style...felt like she was trying to get her arms around a more traditional Hollywood prestige movie.”
• But the “final 20 minutes is just this absolute sledgehammer...to garner emotion is not to be overlooked.”

Key Scene Analysis

• The "Globe scene": cited by all as a near-universally powerful, communal moviegoing emotional experience ([23:31], [37:06])
• Standout performance by Jessie Buckley, described as “primal” and “elemental,” more than a character study ([27:41])
• Some criticism of the didactic, literal approach (e.g., “the rest is silence” moments; Shakespeare quotes) ([28:41])

Notable Quotes

• Amanda: “...If I had to see that tree one more time, I was gonna light myself on fire...It is a movie about grief...very post-psychology, post-therapy...” ([19:07])
• Sean: “If you can catch me, you can catch me, and that matters to me.” ([22:05])
• Joanna (on Buckley and Mescal): “[Their performances are] very primal. They don't feel like fully formed characters...that works on me.” ([27:41])

On Awards Chances

• Jessie Buckley’s awards momentum is “not cemented” ([40:37]); Rose Byrne and Chase Infinity seen as challengers ([43:11]). The film is expected to place broadly but Buckley’s Best Actress win is “less certain” than expected.

Memorable Moments & Anecdotes

• Sean shares a vivid story of the emotional impact of the film being interrupted at a critical moment by a theater emergency alarm ([34:15])—underscoring the movie’s power to move an audience communally.
• Joanna’s heartful defense: “If you see it in a theater with other people, this movie has you and Jessie has you...Jesse makes the case for herself.” ([41:02])

On the Max Richter Score

• The use of “On the Nature of Daylight” is debated—acknowledged as both “dirty pool” (Joanna, [38:20]) but also extremely effective.
  • Joanna: “But Jessie Buckley said...she was listening to that track...there was at least a slightly honest, organic way in which it came into the mix.” ([38:51])

Craft & Performances

• Strong praise for supporting work, especially Noah Jupe, and the camera’s deliberate style (“Zone of Interest was a huge inspo,” [46:33]).

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III. Interview: Kleber Mendonça Filho on The Secret Agent ([107:27]–[145:43])

Life at the Movies

• Filho shares warm, specific memories of experiencing movie palaces in Recife as a child in the 1970s ([107:53]–[111:14]).
  • “Not only do I remember the films I saw at the time, but I also remember the films I never saw at the time...I would see the posters and the lobby cards, and that really played with one's imagination.” ([109:17])

On the Making of The Secret Agent

• Set in 1977 Brazil—a year of personal and political upheaval for the filmmaker.
• Traces parallel between The Secret Agent and his prior film (Pictures of Ghosts): “They're very different films, but they're very close in heart.” ([113:12])
• Emphasis on genre influences (Carpenter, De Palma, Spielberg) and Brazilian/Australian cinema of the '70s ([115:06]).
• Blending of documentary and fiction: “You can use artifice and genre conventions, but still come up with an idea which is very honest and very truthful about life...” ([116:11])

Craft Details

• Split diopter shots and formal flourishes are both homage and deliberate style (“I love them...if you use them in the right place” [120:49])
• Mendes provides a spontaneous, organic approach to mood and “dread”: not schematic, but intuitive ([117:24]–[119:24])
• On Wagner Moura: written especially for him, after years of mutual admiration ([128:49])

Themes

• Juxtaposition of brutality and affection, often in the same frame ([133:22])
• The Udo Kier sequence—filming with the late legend (“I feel so lucky...he had this sarcastic humor...I miss him.” [137:27])
• Observations on the Holocaust, Jewish history in Recife, and identity ([139:02])

Awards & Recognition

• Filho reflects on being swept into the international awards machinery: “It feels good...But I'm in good spirits and I'm happy. It's what I asked Santa Claus way back then.” ([142:04], [143:23])

Favorite Recent Film ([144:23])

• Jeanne Dielman (Akerman) restoration: “It really felt like I had spent a full week with that woman in that apartment.” ([145:05])

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IV. The Hosts’ 10 Best Performances of 2025 ([54:31]–[106:32]; scattered throughout; summarized here)

Each host/guest lists 10 (sometimes grouped) favorite acting performances of 2025, spanning leads, supporting, and scene stealers in both high art and popcorn movies.

Notable Picks (with timestamped quotes)

• Jessie Buckley, Hamnet (Multiple, [102:29]):
  • Joanna: “I just want to cement how I feel about her performance...tremendous.”
• Chase Infinity, One Battle After Another (Sean, [65:06]):
  • “It’s pretty amazing...the movie effectively becoming hers.”
• Robert Pattinson, Mickey 17 (Amanda, [68:54]):
  • “He has to do a lot...I find this man incredibly watchable...I like that he did it.”
• Josh O’Connor, multiple films (Sean & Amanda, [74:01]):
  • “His range is pretty cool to watch right now...just by randomness of the schedule, a guy gets to be in four movies at one time.” (Sean)
• Keke Palmer & SZA, One of Them Days (Amanda, [72:55]):
  • “Keke Palmer...is like driving the film...chemistry that she has with Sza, who's so charming and is, like, driving the film, is very special. They're great together.”
• Tom Burke, Black Bag (Amanda, [76:21])
• A$AP Rocky, Highest to Lowest and If I Had Legs, I’d Kick You (Sean, [88:37])
• Dylan O’Brien, Twinless (Joanna, [90:05]):
  • “You don't appreciate how good one role is until you see the second role...really, just sort of complement and highlight each other.”
• Amanda Seyfried, The Testament of Anne Lynn (Sean, [94:26]):
  • “She’s amazing in this movie. This movie is ridiculous in a good way...her commitment is why the movie works.”
• Timothée Chalamet, Marnie Supreme (Sean & Amanda, [102:50])
  • Amanda: “Yeah, it's Timmy. We share a number one.”
  • Sean: “He is literally talking about the intersection between sports and entertainment. That's a theme of Marnie Supreme...Marnie is amazing.”

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V. Memorable Quotes & Moments

On Hamnet

• Amanda (on Chloe Zhao’s style): “And respectfully, if I had to see that tree one more time, I was gonna light myself on fire.” ([19:07])
• Sean: “If you can catch me, you can catch me, and that matters to me.” ([22:05])
• Joanna: “What I think this movie has to say about...how we use art to process that is really accessible.” ([16:33])
• On Max Richter’s emotional manipulation: Joanna: “Dirty pool!” ([38:20])

On the Theatrical Experience

• Joanna: “Heartbreak feels good in a place like this. You know what I mean?” ([23:31])
• Sean (after an interrupted screening): “The movie has been...effectively ruined for these people, I would say.” ([35:09])

On Year in Performances

• Amanda: “There is something charming about how just everyone clearly feels the same way. And he's in four movies. He's in every single TikTok. People are bringing him Ratatouille gifts on the red carpet.” (on Josh O’Connor, [93:01])
• Sean: “It's always exciting when a new person arrives and can take a movie away from...Leonardo DiCaprio.” (on Chase Infinity, [66:41])

On Kleber Mendonça Filho’s Mission

• Filho: “You can use artifice and genre conventions, but still come up with an idea which is very honest and very truthful about life and about people and about the world.” ([116:11])
• Filho: “Filmmaking is the whole nine yards...I feel lucky to be able to meet so many people and get so many reactions.” ([142:04])

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VI. Timestamps Guide to Major Segments

• [00:14] — Show open, Hamnet intro
• [01:45] — Spielberg/“Disclosure” billboard news
• [06:17] — Supergirl trailer & DCU conversation
• [12:56] — Hamnet review and deep-dive
• [46:33] — Discussion of Lucas Zahl and shot composition
• [49:12] — Pivot to The Secret Agent
• [54:31] — Top 10 performances segment begins
• [107:27] — Interview with Kleber Mendonça Filho

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Conclusion / Final Thoughts

This episode of The Big Picture offers an uncommonly rich, nuanced film conversation: mixing gut-level reactions, craft detail, and reflections on culture, career, and the state of the art. The discussion of Hamnet is especially revealing not just for its direct critical appraisal, but for its context within an awards season marked by communal grief, a shifting industry, and arguments over how best to sell “capital I Important” movies to everyday audiences.

Kleber Mendonça Filho’s interview is a highlight, sharing candid observations and emotional moments from his personal and professional journey. The top performances segment provides a wide-ranging, witty look at the year in film, celebrating both crowd-pleasers and more daring indie work.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In:

You’ll get the year’s most thoughtful groupthink on Hamnet, a sneak peek at an Oscar race in flux, an evocative interview with an international auteur, and a feast of acting superlatives—plus plenty of big laughs, running jokes, and cinephile camaraderie.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “What I think this movie has to say about the universal idea of grief and...how we use art to process that is really accessible.” — Joanna, [16:33]
• “Once Jessie Buckley reaches her hand out and then everybody reaches their hand out, I was like, well, there is something very primal here. Like, I'm gone.” — Amanda, [37:06]
• “You can use artifice and genre conventions, but still come up with an idea which is very honest and very truthful about life...” — Kleber Mendonça Filho, [116:11]
• “Dirty pool!” — Joanna, on Max Richter’s score, [38:20]

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End of Summary.

Transcript

[A]

I'm Sean Fennesee.

[B]

I'm Amanda Dobbin.

[A]

And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about hamnet and the best performances of the year. Today we will talk about Chloe Zhao's new adaptation of Maggie o' Farrell's novel about the family life of William Shakespeare. Perhaps you've heard of the man. This has been an awards magnet thus far and features a particularly acclaimed performance from Jessie Buckley. Joanna Robinson is joining us to have those conversations. Hello.

[C]

I'm thrilled to be here. What an honor to be sandwiched between.

[B]

Two of my favorite people.

[A]

Thank you for being back here. Speaking of great performances, you will give one on this episode. Also, Kleber Mendonza Figlio will give a great one. He is on the show. We're going to talk about his new film the Secret Agent, which also features one of the great performances of the year from Wagner Mora. This is a film set in 1977 Brazil. Lots of intrigue, lots of sharks, lots of unexpected absurdity and heartbreaking truth about life under the thumb of power. It's an awards film. It's a beautiful movie. You know, Filio, he was a film critic and a programmer, so he speaks our language.

[C]

He's one of us.

[A]

He's one of us. And he was really great to talk to. I felt like I was hanging out with an older colleague when we were chatting. Even though he's a genius and I'm a schmuck, we'll get into all that stuff very soon.

[B]

This episode of the Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie there's that last minute scramble to make it all come together. From gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop.

[A]

Now, before we get into Hamnet, let's talk about some news. Really good news, really exciting news. A billboard went up. Don't you love when a billboard goes up and you think something cool is about to happen? A billboard went up. This time it was a billboard for the new Steven Spielberg film, which may or may not be called Disclosure. This new movie stars Josh o', Connor, Emily Blunt, Colman Domingo, Colin Firth, Wyatt Russell, and we think it's about aliens. We don't know.

[B]

It was rumored at some point, right?

[A]

Yes. There is a rumor going around that I don't think is true, that it is a Quasi sequel to Close Encounters of the Three. Okay, now I don't believe that specifically.

[C]

They screened some footage at Universal, right?

[A]

Did they?

[C]

Yeah, I think some people saw some footage.

[A]

And was Richard Dreyfus in that footage?

[C]

There are some tones, familiar tones.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, is it every Spielberg movie, a quasi sequel to Close Encounters of the Third Kind?

[A]

Very fair point, very fair point.

[B]

And appreciation for his work and the plight of the divorced child.

[A]

Yes. A child of divorce looking up at the skies and wondering, why me?

[C]

God, aliens, Dad.

[A]

I was happy this was. This hit the world because, you know, we've done Spielberg episodes together, the three of us and Spielberg very, very important as a filmmaker to all three of us and frankly really to most movie fans. But this new movie is a big old fashioned Summer Blockbuster. Coming June 12, 2026. Your thoughts on the billboard.

[B]

I appreciate a date. As you know, I'm a planner. Like to get that calendar organized.

[A]

No vacations in June.

[B]

Like to send the invites. Like to send the family invites. So thank you for the specificity. And it was in, was the billboard in Times Square?

[A]

I believe so.

[B]

Have you ever. Do you want a billboard in Times Square? Is that an ambition of yours?

[A]

Do I want a billboard?

[C]

Yeah, like a video. Like a big, like the big vertical video.

[B]

One of me.

[C]

The, like Frasier, the Frasier TV show.

[B]

One can like be posing in front.

[A]

Of it, you know, I could not want something else.

[C]

Stop talking about physical media.

[A]

I would rather drink bleach while watching Pete Alonso hit 500 home runs.

[C]

What if you convert the masks and all the buskers and all the tourists?

[B]

Yeah. What if it's a billboard for four case?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like a tower of and you. And you get.

[C]

Is this your little face?

[B]

People are lifetime supply.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Unlimited. Like you are the king of 4Ks. And then you get every edition forever.

[A]

Keep talking. No, I don't want that. I'm more than happy to cede that real estate to Steven Spielberg. Any thoughts about this promotional moment? It's not really news.

[C]

I think it's fun that there's mystery around it. I think that's really fun. I have reservations around it because in our Spielberg conversations I think we've talked about is this our favorite Spielberg era that we're in right now? I think David Koepp being involved is both interesting and nerve making because we all loved Black Bag. But I don't think any of us loved the Jurassic park movie that came out this year. Except Amanda did.

[B]

I had a nice time.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

A fun fine time at the movies. You know what? Jonathan Bailey met that computer brontosaurus on the island, and he delivered emotion, and I responded to that.

[C]

I think Amanda's gonna love this movie.

[B]

Also, a brontosaurus took over Cobble Hill. Okay.

[C]

Okay. So what more could you ask for?

[A]

This is the kind of scintillating film insights that we expect from this show. I'm excited about this movie. We'll talk about a lot more in the coming days.

[B]

I don't know how you can have.

[C]

That take and then have the reaction that you just had to the trailer that we just watched. You can't be. Well, I guess you can pay multitudes.

[B]

I guess you can. You can respond to dinosaurs.

[A]

You can contain contradictory multitudes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Speaking of the Bard.

[B]

Sure. Well, that's Walt Whitman, right? Who. Yeah, speaking of that. The dinosaur. The brontosaurus in question, like, was. His park was right by the Brooklyn Bridge.

[A]

Speaking of Walt Whitman, the brontosaurus in question.

[B]

Yeah, sure. I think it was a brontosaurus. I'm not sure. I think. I do think that dinosaur, like, genealogy has evolved.

[C]

Would you list the brontosaurus as one of the top performances of the year?

[B]

Well, he's not seen. You know, it's just.

[C]

But it's evocative. Yeah.

[B]

It's just the idea of what has happened to New York real estate that is interesting to me.

[A]

I'll bet it is.

[B]

You know, it's of a world.

[A]

You just alluded to a new trailer that just hit this morning for another coming blockbuster. I don't. We'll see, I guess, for Supergirl, Piece of ip. Yes. This is the second film officially in the new dcu. James Gunn and Peter Safran's reimagining of the DC movies. Superman came out last summer, did very well.

[C]

We all liked it.

[A]

People liked it. We liked it. This new movie is directed by Craig Gillespie. It stars Millie Alcock of Game of Thrones House of the Dragon fame, who was terrific in the first season of that show, I thought. And she stars as Supergirl. Matthias Schonartz is in this film, I guess, as the villain.

[C]

What else can he be doing?

[A]

What's with his pins on his face? Yeah. Jason Momoa probably in this film as Lobo. What are your thoughts on the character Lobo?

[C]

I know you've been waiting for Lobo. Right.

[B]

Even counting the days he's not Aquaman.

[A]

He is not.

[B]

Even though this is Aquaman is part of the DC universe.

[A]

We don't know who's gonna be portraying Aquaman, but he was previously occupied that was the dceu.

[B]

Sure. Great.

[A]

This is the dc.

[C]

That was the Snyder regime. This is the Gunaverse.

[B]

So Lobo land, air or sea?

[A]

Land.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He's an alien. He's an alien. Is he a bounty hunter? He's a bounty hunter sometimes. Well known for his cigar chomping and his sort of DC's answer to Wolverine.

[C]

Wolverine?

[A]

Yeah, you know, like a.

[B]

People didn't want Adamantium.

[C]

People.

[A]

Well, that's what Logan has. But there's no Adamantium in the dc.

[B]

I just wanted to make sure that I was remembering Wolverine. And then Wakanda makes what?

[A]

Vibranium.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

And in Avatar, it's Unobtainium. That's correct.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

Which is completely not referenced in Avatar's 2.

[A]

Spoiler alert.

[B]

Well, I'm sorry, but they've moved on to, you know, other water and fire. Right. But also other. Even more Unobtainium.

[A]

Whale brain juice.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what they're after in the second film and perhaps in the third.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Welcome back.

[C]

I hate Avatar. I hate Avatar. Supergirl.

[A]

Help me with Supergirl. Come on, help me.

[C]

No, I mean, it looks fun.

[A]

Does it?

[C]

Like a fun, fine time at the movies, right? Like, it doesn't look.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

It looks kind of standard, which is not what you want. You want it to be special.

[C]

It's interesting. I was interested to see if they were going to try to sort of invoke the Birds of Prey. And they are, in a way that I'm surprised because that film didn't go over super well. But doesn't this trailer feel like it was trying to do exactly what that film marketing campaign was trying to do? But Millie Alacock is great.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And her. Her, like, towsled doesn't have her shit together, but her beachy waves look good. Hair is doing a lot of work in this trailer. So I think it'll be fun and fine. Yeah, that's what I think. But it won't have that extra juice that Superman had, which is James Gunn accessing a level of heart that. That we weren't expecting he would. I wasn't expecting he would be able to get to.

[A]

I think you're right. It's an interesting gambit for D.C. in general to say, okay, on the heels of the relaunch of this with the biggest franchise, I guess the 6 second biggest character, at least in the movie world, now we're going to do Supergirl and Clayface and we're going to kind of lower the stakes a little bit and lower the expectations, because these are lesser known characters. They're smaller movies. Craig Gillespie, not really a filmmaker I have a lot of time for, to be honest with you, tends to make zippy, entertaining but very empty movies. And that's kind of the vibe I got from this trailer. But we'll see.

[C]

Maybe we'll have a fun, fun time at the movies.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

You didn't want to ask my thoughts?

[A]

Well, what are they?

[B]

I googled something to get the money.

[A]

What did you Google?

[B]

So Jacob Elordi recently gave an interview to Vanity Fair and he was asked about AI in filmmaking.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And he gave the following answer, which does apply to my feelings about AI and filmmaking, but also has a broader application. So as a human being, I have no tolerance, not even being asked about it. I just have no interest in it at all because it's so fucking boring. And it goes on. It bores me personally. As far as I'm concerned, I would much rather kiss on the beach and read a novel and be sunburned.

[C]

But brontosauri and whale brain juice you have a lot of time for.

[B]

Some things bore me. No. Also the whale brain juice. I like the whales in Avatar, but.

[C]

Not the brain juice.

[B]

But I. Yeah, no. Well, I think that they should get to keep their brain juice. I'm pro animals.

[C]

I don't think that's a controversial thing. I would like to stop having to talk to you.

[A]

I'm going the other way. I want more brain juice in my home.

[B]

So it's just. It doesn't interest me. I would rather kiss on the beach than read a novel and be sunburned. Someone better make me that hat for Christmas.

[C]

But you did like Superman more than you thought you would, right?

[B]

I did. I liked the. I thought that David Corenswet and Rachel Brosnahan were, like, very good and they had a certain charm. But, like, once it got away from the pretty essential, like goofy boy and really on it girl. And, I don't know, I have some feelings and, like, the more we got into the lore and the world building and all of the fighting and the CGI river or whatever they're on, the less I was compelled by it. So it's one of these things, like the closer we get from the cortex and the more we get into the fan service, just the. The more interested I am in a novel.

[C]

Keep it grounded in, like, brontosauri and whale brain.

[B]

Sure. I mean, brontosauri were real people. I mean, animals.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And we brought them back, you know, so there was Like a science drive park is science.

[C]

Exactly right.

[B]

And as the, you know, premier science corner of the. Of the Internet.

[C]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

It speaks to my interest.

[A]

This is the premier science corner of the entire Internet. The one that you host on the show, Amanda. It's just me.

[B]

Yeah, it's right here. This.

[A]

We haven't determined if science corner is asking questions or answering them.

[B]

It is a vigorous discussion with yourself and sometimes with him.

[A]

Kind of checked out. Most of the time when she starts going off on that.

[B]

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[A]

Speaking of sticking to the text and staying grounded, let's talk about Hamnet. You know, this is a big one. This is one of the most important movies of the year. And I've said that a few times on this show this year, at least relative to something that we cover over a six month period which is the Academy Awards and prestige film and serious filmmakers. We've had an Academy award winner directing this movie. This is Chloe Zhao's first film since Eternals, a film that I thought was quite poor, very bad, but coming off of Nomadland, a movie that I liked quite a bit, which I think has developed a little bit of a negative reputation as an Oscar winner as a Covid era movie. But I found a lot of sincerity and thoughtfulness in that movie. I thought that was a really interesting evolution of her filmmaking style. So, you know, I try to be very open minded about her. Despite coming off of this MCU car crash, which she has also spoken about quite a bit. And she's taken on this interesting task. She's adapting a really well loved novel by Maggie o' Farrell about a tremendously famous person in our literary history, Amnet Shakespeare. Amnet Shakespeare, a person I did not know about anything about. And I want to kind of foreground our conversation about this movie by saying that not only did I not know anything about the novel and had not read the novel before I saw the film, I didn't know anything about Shakespeare's life. Not a Single thing. I studied a lot of Shakespeare in college. I've read a lot of his plays. I've never read a single thing.

[B]

I have many leather bounds, many leather.

[A]

Bound books, smells of great mahogany. But I just didn't know any of the biography. So when I sat down to watch this movie, it was revelation, or at least perceived revelation based on what's inside of the novel. And I don't know, I still to this day don't know what's accurate and not accurate and so forth.

[C]

It's not very accurate.

[A]

Okay, that's helpful to know, I guess. Although it ultimately doesn't matter. The film is shot by Lucas Zahl, most recently shot the Zone of Interest. The film's edited by Zhao and Afonso Goncalves, who is also Todd Haynes editor, one of the best editors in the world. Music is by Max Richter, quite notably and for a couple of reasons. The movie is about Shakespeare and his wife Agnes, celebrating the birth of their son Hamnet. And then tragedy strikes.

[C]

How much are we talking about is my question. How do you talk about this?

[A]

I think we have to talk about all of it, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, the film does open with a title card that says in 16th century England, the names Hamlet and Hamnet were interchangeable. And then it ascribes the quote to.

[C]

The, I believe the death of Hamlet.

[B]

The death of Hamnet and the writhes of. Yeah, exactly. But anyway, the death of Hamnet is there on the very first title card.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's premise, I would say.

[A]

Yes. So all to say, we'll be spoiling the events of the film in this conversation because you just cannot talk about the movie without actually exploring what happens, particularly in the second half of the movie. So Joanna, since you're our guest, I'll start with you. What did you think of Hamnet?

[C]

So I. I think it's really interesting when you talk about being an important film because I do think it's an important movie for, especially for like lovers of your podcast. For this inflection point we find ourselves in Hollywood and the love of going to the theater and what it means for to share art together in a space. I think it is so important for that. For that reason, I think it's the most important movie of the year for that conversation. I don't think it's the best movie I saw this year. I don't think it should win best picture or anything like that. But in terms of if you care about going to the movies, which I think people who listen to your podcast.

[B]

Do, I Hope so. We try this.

[C]

I don't think any other movie, not Babylon one of your beloved, not J. Kelly, which sort of purports to do it this year, has captured what that means in a communal space. The way that this movie does so important with a capital I. But I also think I've been a little dismayed by the way the wonderful people who worked on this film have been talking about this film. I think they're making it sound really unapproachable. Really. They're talking about it in a high arc kind of way, which I have a lot of space for in a very sort of Mother Gaia Goddess Earth. There's a lot of stuff that just, I worry is going to turn people off. And what I think this movie has to say about the universal idea of grief and the universal idea of how we use art to process that is really accessible. Something that Paul Mescal has said and something my drama teachers used to say is that you don't have to understand the words of Shakespeare at all. If it's done well, you get it emotionally, it impacts you. So you don't need to know anything about Shakespeare. You don't need to understand even the language of Hamlet in order to feel what happens at the sort of climax of this film, I would argue. And so I just hope that people think of it in a more accessible way than I worry it's being talked about. Does that make sense?

[A]

It does. I think it's a great advocacy for the film itself. Did you read the novel?

[B]

I did.

[A]

Okay. And did you read the novel? I did.

[B]

And loved the novel.

[A]

Okay, so you both read the novel before you saw the film?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so what did you think of Hamnet?

[B]

So I think Joanna makes a great point and that is the best case for the film and certainly locates what is best about the film. And what was best about the book. I felt as well, which is the ending. And the ending is spectacularly moving. I've seen the film twice. I have ugly cried both times. I think it really does reveal the power of art and seeing art together and, you know, and art and grief, to your point. And so I don't want to undersell that because once they are in the Globe Theater, it's really amazing stuff. I found myself incredibly resistant to the rest of the film. And I think some of it is what Joanna located is that there is a real woo woo energy to the first hour and to the characterization of Anges in particular, which the sort of.

[C]

Woods witch pedigree sort of Thing. Yeah.

[B]

And then. But then bleeds into the actual filmmaking. And respectfully, if I had to see that tree one more time, I was gonna light myself on fire. I get it. You know, it's beautiful and powerful, and it has. It connects to the sky, but also there are deep roots in the earth. And then there's something unknowable down below, like, wow. Yeah, I get it. I've been thinking a lot about what works for me in Train Dreams, which is a not dissimilar movie, and what doesn't work for me in Hamnet. One of them is that I didn't read Train Dreams, the novel. And I did read the book, though I really don't think that my concerns are about the adaptation or what it leaves out of the book. It is about just what the film chooses to emphasize and also how it communicates the information, which I found to be very obvious, very tell. Don't show. And so there's something of just. It is a movie about grief, but it is. And it's a movie set in the 16th century, but it is. Or maybe the 17th century, but it is like very post psychology, post therapy. Like, let me tell you that this is a movie about grief 45,000 times. And we all need to. We are processing our feelings in a way that I guess am allergic to. And ultimately, when it just does let people and let the characters process feelings altogether, I think it's tremendously effective. But I was pretty impatient with the rest.

[A]

I've seen it twice now, too, sort of. And I'll tell you a little bit later about my second moviegoing experience, which was interesting. The first time I saw it was over the summer, and I saw it before the fall festivals. Like I said, I hadn't read the book and didn't really know what to expect. And I found the first hour a crushing bore. I found it really hard to act, to get inside the story. I found Zhao applying her filmmaking style, which is very bound by nature, the natural world, and the way that kind of human beings both try to coexist and also trample on it, which is something that's pretty consistent throughout Nomadland, throughout all of her films, the Rider. But it felt like she was trying to get her arms around, like, maybe a more traditional Hollywood style of filmmaking. We should note Steven Spielberg, as one of the producers of this film, felt like her trying to access some of the more distinct structures of, like, a prestigious Hollywood movie. Emily Watson as, like, a stern woman in a household. You know, like, some things that just felt like you might see in a miramax movie in 1996.

[B]

Yeah, Emily Watson's one scene is dynamite. So.

[A]

But the. The second half of the movie, the first time I saw it absolutely just killed me. Like, I. I went from being, like, completely checked out in minute 47 and, like, thinking about my grocery list, which is something I really try hard not to do while watching films for this show, to being similarly, like, just. Just devastated by it. And not just by the death of a. Of a young child, but by the communication of how some people choose to reckon with their feelings and how they cope. And I think it's a really interesting movie about coping. We use the word cope a lot in our culture as, like, your team just lost in the World Series cope. But there's a variety of versions of it. There's both Agnes and Shakespeare's version of it. There is even small things like actors trying to get performance right and trying to cope with feedback that I think is, like, pretty insightful and. And well observed. And then I agree that, like, the final 20 minutes is just this absolute sledgehammer. Like, and it's. I don't want to overestimate how hard that is to do. Like, it's manipulative, and there are manipulating factors that are applied to it. We can talk about the music, we can talk about the performance style, but to garner emotion is not to be overlooked. I think a lot of critics tend to say, like, that's cheap. I don't. I don't see movie watching that way. I think if you can catch me, you can catch me. And that matters to me. So I find myself, like, really split on the movie. I think it's, like, good. I think it's good. I don't think it's great. I don't think it's bad. I think it's just good.

[C]

I absolutely get that take. I would say the first hour and a half are so for me, and I understand that that particular strain of so for me is not for a lot of people. And I get that that is, like, it's just a fastball down the middle for me. And then the rest of the movie is, I think, for everyone. And I am curious to hear about how you guys saw it, because I saw it at a festival screening in a room full of strangers. Like, I didn't go with anyone. I went because I was working. Went to the festival surrounded by strangers, weeping in a room with strangers. I don't know if you've ever heard this before, but heartbreak feels good in a place like this. You know what I mean? Just like you can't underestimate how powerful that is. And Chloe Zhao is a filmmaker that I have never responded very well to. Not Nomadland, not the Writer, certainly not Eternals. I was really worried when I heard she was taking on Buffy Vampire Slayer, which is one of my favorite properties. I was like, no, no, thank you. And so I had maybe lower expectations for this than I would if it were a different filmmaker. But I think I find Jesse Buckley and Paul Mescal sort of like endlessly watchable personally. And what they brought to this movie, when you hear them talk about the process of this movie, it's again, very woo woo, but also very based in the theater. And it sounds like both Buckley and Meskel brought a lot of their own ideas to the, the, the property. And Chloe Zhao was said, okay, go ahead. So some of the biggest moments for me, like William talking to his son, young son Hamnet, and say, like, will you be brave? This moment that just like actually really got to me was an improv that Paul Mescal did in rehearsal or the whole closing sequence in the Globe, a lot of which was directed by Jesse Buckley. Improv. So there's a lot that these particular theater based performers brought to the table that I think overrode the sort of arid way that I usually respond to a Chloe Zhao property. These are very emotive performers in everything. They're famous for that. So I think that helped me access it. But I don't. I'm not surprised to hear the way you guys felt about the rest of the movie.

[B]

I like the performances too, and I like both, which I think there may be some feedback on.

[A]

I did not like both.

[B]

Yeah. But what I liked about them was the rawness. And there's a scene midway through the movie which to me is possibly even more upsetting than the end scene, which is when Anya says jessie Buckley gives birth to twins. And the second twin is a surprise as it was in those days, and also is not immediately visibly alive. And there's a camera. Hold on. Jesse Buckley in great physical distress, holding that child and working through. And then when the child does start crying, I'm getting really emotional, as you can see. But the wonder and the fear and the what's going on in her face is like, you can't reproduce. It's astonishing. You can't reproduce it. Sorry, excuse me. So it clearly really worked on me. But I also, at the same time, I don't know if I think the characters are very good. I think Just the actual, like the ending scene where it's leading with her improv. I mean, I think it's the most amazing thing. And I think when she reaches out again, I'm gonna start crying. Like, it really works. But until that moment, I'm like, does.

[C]

This person have a head injury?

[B]

Like, what's going on? There is something that is so in conflict between their performances. And these two people on screen are so talented and so able to communicate. Not even ideas, really, just emotion. And I think that's astonishing and an accomplishment. But I don't know if they are always tied to ideas or like the schema of a film.

[C]

I don't disagree. I think it's like a very. Again, I don't want to sound too sort of woo woo, but it feels a very primal performance. You know what I mean? They don't feel like fully formed characters. They feel like sort of elemental, emotional thing. I do sound very woo woo talking about that, but that works on me. But I don't disagree with a critique that these don't feel like real people. This isn't a, like, biopic of William Shakespeare where you're gonna walk away saying, like, I really understand who William Shakespeare is. That's not what this film is purporting.

[B]

To do all of that until they get to Hamnet. And like, the actual architecture of the novel is like straight up embarrassing. Like, with the exception of the scene in which Paul Mescal is doing as Shakespeare is doing Hamnet rehearsals and it's Noah Jupe is playing Hamnet and he keeps correcting him and then he does it. And that was the one time where I was like, oh, yeah, Paul Mescal is trained in the theater and can do Hamlet if he needs to do it.

[A]

It's one of my favorite scenes in the movie.

[B]

It's really great and he's really good in it. But every other winking, I mean, they jam in, the rest is silence somewhere.

[C]

That's prayer for remembrance.

[B]

I'm sorry, I do they have him recite to be or not to be in the book. I don't remember it, but I almost. And it's not Paul Mescal's fault, but what are we doing?

[A]

Well, yeah, I mean, it literalizes this idea of mortality that's in that speech where he's literally standing before the water and considering whether to give himself over to the earth, you know, and that's like kind of a big theme of the movie is we are a part of the earth and we are like coexisting. And we are meant to be living inside of trees and on the open land, but we're not. We're like these kind of savages who build and destroy. And that's just a huge thing in all of Chloe Zhao's movies. And she's trying to kind of hammer that. I think on top of the dramatic framework of the novel and the characters. I don't know. Meskel, to me, does not emit vibrant wit. And that is something in Shakespeare that I think is a kind of vital component.

[C]

You're just a Fiennes guy.

[A]

I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. Even though there's a little bit of Shakespeare in love in this movie. Not. Maybe not.

[C]

Maybe not enough, actually.

[A]

Maybe not enough, like zip in the film. But I think when it is attempting to really make you feel, it really works. I'll tell you another scene that I really like that was along those lines was when he's writer's blocked and he's drinking and he's sitting at the desk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's like, I've had too much to drink. And he just doesn't know what to do. And he's just kind of like, got his head in his hands and he's.

[C]

Like, don't touch it.

[A]

She's trying to help him. There's nothing that she can say to him to help him. You know, we've all been there. You know, like, it happens. There's a very relatable moment in that movie.

[C]

It was interesting to me to hear what you guys thought about this, because there is inside of this a story that I feel like you both really respond to, which is like, the great man burdened with greatness. The, like, I have to create the bomb or play table tennis or whatever it is, or else I'll die.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

You know what I mean? And so, like, that part of it is like, I have to go to London or I'll die. It's true.

[A]

But that isn't what the movie movie is like. That is an idea that is in the movie. But this is not William Shakespeare's movie. It's Anas's movie. And I more or less agree with all of the plaudits that Jessie Buckley is receiving. Listeners of the show know Jessie Buckley is one of my favorite actresses alive. I think she can do anything. I think she is absolutely magical. And I think she pretty much puts the movie on her shoulders in the final hour. But it's interesting to have William Shakespeare and all of his words and Works be so center of the structure of the story, but then not feel his energy, I guess, you know, maybe up until that final 20 minutes, when of course, like literally watching his work performed and then intrinsically woven into his life. Maybe some people will say they closed it like they landed the plane, they nailed it. But for the first hour and a half, I was like, this doesn't even feel like Shakespeare at all to me.

[C]

That thing that you're talking about in terms of like, that, which I usually hate, I have an allergy to that magpie, sort of. It's in Blue Moon a lot. And it really bothered me in that movie that sort of like, oh, I'm gonna take that, I'm gonna take that, I'm gonna take that and put this into this great piece of work that you're all familiar with. But there are. There's a purpose to it inside of this one because it's important for her to recognize these shared things that have been in their lives that are now inside of this play. So, like, it had a purpose to me more than a clever winking, winking, you know, that this is a line from Hamlet. And that actor instruction scene, that's a Hamlet scene. You know what I mean? So there's just like, there are ways in which it hits you like an anvil. And then there's a way in which it's sort of more subtly woven in, in a way. But like, that kind of thing usually.

[B]

Really bothers me, you know, Sometimes it works and sometimes it really, really does not. As in the to be or not to be seen.

[A]

And then.

[B]

And then when they make poor Joe Allen, long suffering Joe Allen, just to show up and be like, we are looking for William Shakespeare. I mean, it's real, you know, Leo, you know, once upon a time, like, yeah, we know. We know who it is.

[A]

Let me tell you briefly about my two moviegoing experiences. This normally wouldn't be very interesting, but I'm gonna share it. The first time I saw it, I saw it on the lot at Universal, and it was at a theater I'd never been to before. And I got lost. And on the way to getting lost, I ran into Mia Livicino, who works at Letterboxd, friend of mine. And she was also lost. And we didn't know where the fuck we were going. And we were very confused. We were kind of laughing like, oh, yeah. And like, in theory, this is a huge movie, but we're just like stuck in the middle of this giant corporate park and we walk in and we were like, 38 seconds late to the movie. And we sit down, and it's a weird screening room with, like, 25 seats, but they're kind of half couches, half lounge chairs. And, you know, that part might have been part of the reason why I was a little bit disengaged at the beginning of the film. And then the film ended, and I saw Mia, and we were both just, like, real mess. Like, really, like, fuck. Like, this really hit me hard. You know, I think there's some very obvious parental parallels. If you have a kid and you see what happens to Hamnet in the movie, it's really, really hard to watch that kid.

[B]

I mean, and then they also, you know, they literalize the Hamlet's father's ghost thing with them. They have.

[A]

So let me use that as an entree to my second screening. So I saw the movie a second time last night at the Rico Paseo in Pasadena. It was me and about 13 other people, and we watched in the film all the way through. And we get to the final 20 minutes of the film, and there's the moment when the ghost emerges and starts speaking to Hamlet. And then the moment when the ghost is leaving the stage, and she says, turn around. Come back. Turn around. And right at that moment, the emergency alarm went off and everyone had to leave the building.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Now, this was strange. So we went through the emergency exit in the movie theater, and we walked into this sort of back hallway, which was kind of an unfinished basement kind of vibe. And we went out to find one of the emergency exits to go out into the plaza of the movie theater. And as soon as that door opened, it sounded like there were gunshots. So the person who opened that door ran, and then everyone who was in my movie theater ran out. Now, it wasn't gunshots. It sounded like it was actually maybe ultimately just a truck loading. But because the emergency alarm had gone off, everyone was really freaked out and tense, and we were at the most critical emotional moment of the movie. The people who were coming out of the emergency exit with me in tears.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So we go down the other end of the hallway, and we go around the exit, and we get out into the plaza. And then we go back to the lobby of the movie theater. And of course, we enter the lobby of the movie theater, and the guy who's working there says, oh, sorry, false alarm. So the movie has been, like, effectively ruined for these people, I would say.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And for me, I was like, I have to go home. I'm not gonna wait for them. To rerun the reel. I've already seen this film. I know it's happening in the last five minutes of the movie. But all the other patrons did go back inside and watch the movie. And I was thinking about that and kind of like a movie's power and how the movie the second time just felt way less effective to me. Because when that moment happened, it dawned on me how not emotionally crushed and devastated I was in those final 20 minutes. And I was looking around at people who felt the way that I felt in July when I ran into Mia afterwards, and I was a mess. And then a second viewing does not make a film better or worse. Specifically, rewatchability is not the. The clearest metric. But I was reflecting on it because I didn't know anything in the story. And so not having read it, I was like. Part of what really worked on me was just revelation, was just understanding what influence this experience had on Shakespeare. I. Presumably, you guys can tell me if that's accurate or not, if you wrote Hamlet through this experience of loss.

[B]

Yeah, but according to the novel, at least, which is. Yeah.

[C]

According to history, his son Hamlet died. He wrote Hamlet. That happened.

[B]

That's what we know.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think for me, just for me personally, I think all of those things coming together, the loss of a child, the way that you process Arthur grief, the way that this character in particular kind of couldn't find a way to connect with the people he was closest to, but could connect with the artists who could realize his vision.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All that is fascinating. And then once you've got it. I got it. I just. I. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Interesting.

[B]

I will say my second viewing, also at the Regal Paseo, but in the morning and no emergency. Yeah. I was kind of like, it's not gonna get me this time.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it was like 11am after the Golden Globes nominations, and I was just like, I got this. I got this. And even going through the Globe scene, I was like, no, they will not. They won't touch me. And once Jessie Buckley reaches her hand out and then everybody reaches their hand out, I was like, well, there is something very primal here. Like, I'm gone.

[C]

I got got.

[B]

So I do think that they locate something very powerful in that last scene.

[C]

What I think is really interesting. I love the discussions you guys have had this year about. There are so many movies this year that are about being a parent. Right. There's a lot of mom movies, a lot of dad movies. There's something. I'm not a parent. I have no plans to become a parent. And there are sometimes those movies that are so focused on parenting that can be slightly alienating to someone who hasn't had that experience. And I just don't think that that's true of this movie because they're tapping into something true about grief and true about art that is universal.

[A]

I totally agree with that. I did want to talk a little bit about the Max Richter aspect of the film Dirty Pool. Honestly, celebrated composer, there is lots of original music in the film from Richter. The musical cue in that moment when Agnes reaches forward and there's this big swell and thrum in the theater and the power of Hammet is being conveyed on the Nature of Daylight is playing on the soundtrack, which is previously recorded music that we've heard before in films and television shows and is a bit of a. Considered a bit of a cheat sheet.

[C]

If you're trying to get skeleton key sort of thing.

[A]

Yeah. If you're trying to get people to feel things. So you said Dirty Pool.

[C]

I did think so. I love this movie. I wept through that when that track started playing at this moment where I was already the. Had me. I was like, you didn't need to, though. You didn't have to add on the Nature of Daylight on top of this. But Jessie Buckley said in a. I think it was a THR Variety interview that she. She was, like, processing the scene they shot over eight days, and she was listening to that track in her car, and she was just sort of like, this is the one. So there was, like, at least a slightly honest, organic way in which it came into the mix. But I. I.

[B]

Eight days.

[C]

I know. Can you imagine? Yeah, but I. How many times did Paul Messel have to cake himself in, like, white goo? But, like, I think that. I think it would have been maybe even stronger to have an original piece of music there that we could forever identify with just that moment. And when we hear it, when you hear that Max Richter score going forward, we're like, oh, it's the end of Hamnet score. It's gonna get me, you know.

[A]

Is it possible, though, that this becomes what that piece of music is best known for? Because most people don't know that. Most people don't really know this piece of music or wouldn't be able to name it at least, or identify who composed it. And there was a part, and I think that maybe dovetails a little bit with a conversation about kind of what this film is going to be and what it is.

[C]

I just think arrival sort of owns it. That's what I think. And, you know, as a. I wish.

[B]

That Arrival had a broader acceptance rate in the world at large, but I.

[A]

Think that it was a successful film, though.

[C]

Sure. I feel like for the big pic, audience, Arrival is like one of the great, like, shoulda been sort of 1000%.

[A]

For me, it's Amanda's favorite Nolan movie. Yeah, I guess you're right. And I guess Villeneuve going on to become a huge deal means that maybe that movie has a little bit more of a place to feel like he's.

[C]

Always brought up legacy books or something.

[A]

But I'm kind of curious what's going to become of this film in particular? A movie like this 30 years ago would make $200 million.

[C]

Well, that's because Harvey Weinstein would be behind it and he's not. And so I'm actually, you know, from Telluride, Jessie Buckley was anointed as she's going to win Best Actress.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I no longer feel that that is certain. And a lot of that has to do with sort of the way the campaign has already been orchestrated. Interesting. I don't think they figured out a way to talk about this performance.

[A]

Rose Byrne coming.

[C]

Rose Byrne is so far kicking at her heels. You know what I mean? And so I don't know, though.

[B]

I've watched a lot of tiktoks of her and Paul Mescal doing absolutely every single charming thing.

[C]

Oh, they are.

[B]

I mean, they're doing the work.

[C]

But I just think over time, I hope that's true, and I hope as more and more people watch it, but to that sort of communal viewing experience, I think if you see it in a theater with other people, this movie has you and Jesse has you. Like, Jesse makes the case for herself. If you see this movie in the theater.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If you watch it on a screen or at home, middle of the day, if you're an awards voter and you didn't go to the theater, and this is something I always think about with awards, like, does this hit the same way? If you got bored by the first hour and a half and you're not in it and the ending happens and you're just sort of like, okay, it happened. Do you know?

[A]

I'm really not sure. I think part of the reason why, at least from an awards perspective, it has a strong chance to do well, is it is a counterpoint to a lot of the other films that are at the top of the heap, which are very male.

[C]

I think it's gonna be nominated across the board. I don't. I'm Not. I don't doubt that Chloe's gonna be nominated. I don't doubt that it's gonna be nominated for best picture. The mentality I had from an awards point of view, which is not maybe the most useful way to think about anything, but that Jesse Buckley was gonna win, and that was gonna stand for the. We're honoring Hamnet with Jesse Buckley winning. And then one battle is gonna take everything else.

[A]

That was my perception as well.

[C]

And I just. Last couple weeks, I've just started wondering if it doesn't feel as cemented as, like, the Renee Zellweger out of Telluride narrative did or something like that, where it's just sort of like we're running the board.

[B]

So strange.

[C]

It was bizarre.

[A]

Maybe the single weirdest one since we've been doing show.

[C]

I don't understand how that happened, but she doesn't have, like, the Olivia Colman. I can just, like, talk my way to a win for something like this. The Mikey Madison. I'm new. Isn't this interesting and exciting? The. I have a long career, and you're awarding me for my long career. She's somewhere in the middle, and it's a challenging campaign, and I'm. I think she's amazing. She's given some great speeches at very. She's been awarded in a lot of festivals, and I'm. I'm pulling for her. And I want. I want her to go all the way because I love her and I think she's incredible in this.

[A]

I don't know. It's interesting that you say that. I. I still think it's her all the way down, but I. To me, I feel like, weirdly, Chase Infinity has as much of a chance to upend that narrative. The Rose Byrne performance is incredible. We've talked about if I had legs, I'd kick you. That's still a very small movie.

[C]

No, I agree.

[A]

And that's a hard movie just to get through to your screener point.

[C]

I agree. I agree.

[A]

Whereas I'm not sure if Chase Infinity even is really in a lead actress role in one battle after another, but she's running a very good campaign right now, and she is the Mikey Madison discovery for this year.

[B]

The only thing about. To Joanna's point about if you're sitting at home in the middle of the day trying to get through your screeners to vote, you can watch 30 minutes of if I had Legs, I'd kick you and understand that Rose Byrne is doing amazing things and then turn it off. And I think if you turn Off. Yeah. She's walking in the woods. I mean, she's wonderful. I think that, you know, she is your favorite, Shawn, but she is a lot of people's, like, secret favorite. I think there are a lot.

[A]

There's a lot, like, she's Meryl Streep thing. Yeah.

[B]

A lot of people have been waiting to vote for her.

[A]

I think she's already nominated.

[B]

That's going for her.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I think there is a, like, a little bit of a collective amongst cinephiles and people in the industry that's just like, she has chosen one energy. And this would be a way to kind of get almost like, get that out of the way early, where it's like, let's just be cool with every time she shows up in a movie. She's really great, you know, but she's not like a proper star. That's kind of why I compare her to my street.

[C]

And she doesn't want to be. You know what I mean? And so I didn't even know that.

[A]

She had a kid. I didn't even know she had a partner. I don't know anything about her, is my point. Even though she's somebody who I always watch in a movie. But I learned it afterwards because she talked about it, about making this film and being a mother. But that's one of those things where usually you know a lot about the people that you're really interested in when you host a show like this.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I didn't know anymore.

[B]

Now she was pregnant when she walked on stage at Comic Con. Just so not Comic Con. Cinemacon, whatever. And I said to you, oh, good for Jessie Buckley. She's pregnant.

[C]

She's wearing a lot of loose menswear.

[A]

No memory of that.

[B]

I mean, I just. And I said, I'm happy for her.

[A]

Okay. Is Timothee Chalamet a father?

[B]

No, not possibly. His stepdad.

[A]

Yes. That's really good point. Not possibly.

[C]

The dad is stepdad.

[A]

They made their public debut this year.

[B]

Sure. I still don't know if those children have. If he's met those children, but. Different conversation. Me too.

[C]

I doubt it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is Tyga the father?

[B]

No. Isn't it Travis Scott?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Kylie Jenner, Travis Scott. Right.

[A]

That sounds right.

[C]

This is not my area of expectation. Do we want to talk about Hamlet more?

[B]

No.

[C]

I'm just kidding.

[A]

What else do you want to say about Hamlet? Anything else?

[C]

I don't think so. I think I've made the best case I can possibly make for this movie. I think.

[B]

I think you made a Great case for it.

[C]

And I think, honestly, if you just watched the last half hour, you might get it. But I don't recommend that be the way that you ingest a piece of cinema.

[A]

But it's just the last hour, though.

[C]

But I would recommend going to the.

[B]

When are you recommending people turn it on? Like, what scene? 4:00am no, what scene turns it for you?

[C]

You have to see Hamnet, like.

[A]

Well, there's a really. There's a really interesting scene where Hamnet wakes up and he discovers Judith in bed, his sister, and she's ill. And the camera is sort of very gently moving to the right in that room. And Zhao creates this sense of dread in that sequence. And it's really effective and it's very simple what she's doing. But, you know, we already mentioned, if we didn't mention Jacoby Jupe, like, he's incredible as Hamnet. For a young boy to be giving a performance like that is amazing.

[C]

Noah Jupe, his brother playing Hamlet is incredible. And there's the moment of reaching out from the audience. Right. Cause Agnes is having this personal response to this art. And then has sort of swept the audience in with her personal response. And they're reaching out. And Noah Jupe as Hamlet, his moment of being an actor and seeing his impact, even though he doesn't even understand the full context of his impact and is sort of like shock, but he continues the performance. Noah Jupe is like a stealth weapon of this movie. I think that not enough people are talking about. I just think he's really good. But the camera that you're talking about. Chloe Zhao has talked about how Zone of Interest was a huge inspo for the way she framed this movie and that she wanted it to make it feel theatrical. So she's giving you the whole. There's not a ton of close ups, other than like a few that you've mentioned. There's a lot of things that happen in the center of a wide frame.

[A]

Yeah, There's a very memorable shot where you see Will and Hamnet and Hamnet goes around the corner of the house. But the house is almost like a true. You're almost seeing like the triangle of the house between the meeting point of the two sides and the kind of the distance between them just going around that corner. It is Lucas Zahl. You can see him bringing his very particular eye to framing, that sort of thing. And the other Chloe Zhao films don't really have that particular visual sensibility. The camera is much more flowing. It's much more like in the Sequence where Hamnet does die, where it's very handheld, sort of moving in and out of focus and it feels very rough. That's a really hard scene to watch emotionally, but from a filmmaking perspective, that feels more like Nomadland to me. So it's this interesting collision of styles where, like, Zhao is trying to evolve somehow, but she's trying to maintain what makes her her.

[B]

It's a little.

[A]

I think part of why I bump on the movie a bit is that it is. It feels like it's kind of like a work in development for her, even though it's so emotionally brutal and direct, that to be trying to evolve as a director with material that is this big is a little. Is difficult to pull off.

[C]

That's why I think it's correct to honor this movie by giving Jussie Buckley an Oscar and not. I mean, there was some early fears in Oscar season that Hamnet was gonna come and steal the thunder from one battle or something like that.

[A]

It doesn't really feel that way. Right.

[C]

It doesn't seem like it seems that way anymore.

[B]

We've had it at number two in best picture power rankings, but I think it's gonna slide down next time.

[A]

Yeah. I'm curious. I do wonder. Cause there is the one thing that this film will speak to the older academy, you know, there's still a lot of people. They're dwindling, they're dying, they're dying. Every day, we all die.

[C]

And that's what Hamnet's about.

[A]

That's absolutely right. Okay, let's talk briefly about the secret agent. So, as I said on the episode last week, this is right near the top of my top 10.

[C]

It's wild.

[A]

I think this movie is really, really cool. And it does something that it does a couple of things that I really enjoy. It's based in the real world, but it is using all of this wild genre convention and absurdity. And it's very silly, but it's also deeply sincere and painful and also a kind of a thrilling crime movie and an assassination conspiracy plot and a movie about corporate malfeasance and also about a dad just trying to get back to his son. It's a lot. It's a 2 hour and 40 minute boiling pot of stuff. It definitely feels like a movie made by a guy who's obsessed with movies. But I'm really into what this filmmaker is trying to do and the way that he's trying to mix everything all together and make it work. And Wagner Mora, I remember very vividly in 2018. We went to Sundance, and the only actor interview I did at Sundance in person was with Fogner Moore, just because I'd seen him on Narcos, and I was like, he seems cool. And I don't usually book the show that way. I'm not usually, like, we don't talk to actors very much. Like, much more filmmaker focused. But he just kind of had a vibe, and I think this movie uses his real sense of sincerity and mystery and sexiness really, really well. So I'm a big fan of this movie.

[B]

Did you? Yeah, No, I finally caught up with it.

[C]

I'm.

[B]

I was very into it as well. I think what surprised me and what recommends it to me is that it is all of the, like, you know, very sexy, exciting, like, things that you said. It's a thriller, it's government conspiracy, but it is also just like a hangout movie. It is very loose. It is about this world, the northeast part of Brazil in the 70s. And it has, like, a real sense of place, like, the production design and everything is amazing, but you feel like you know these people. And so. And it is silly. You and Adam Neyman both compared it to one battle after another because of, you know, it's about dads and dads and, you know, political resistance. And I think that that's an apt comparison. But there is also a real Paul Thomas Anderson, like, vibe to. It's, you know, it's clear that's where Filo comes from, and he's, like, recreating his world with a lot of love and, like, wry observation and a sense of humor in, like, a sort of absurdist way about what's going on. So it, you know, it's. It's weird to say it was a cool place to spend time because it is about a very dark period in Brazilian history and is also, as you said, about murder and corruption and loss. But, like, Donia Sebastiana. Is that her name?

[A]

What a.

[B]

What a legend. I want to hang out with her forever.

[A]

I know, I know. What did you think?

[C]

I did not love this film, but I think I had the sort of hamnet experience you guys had where I love Wagner Moore's performance. And especially, like, there is an element of this story where the ending really underlines without spoiling. It underlines what an incredible performance this is.

[B]

It was. I was watching it and I was like, this is really good, but are we sure about this actor? And then it flips. And I was like, oh, exactly.

[C]

So, like, I was sitting here, I was like, I love Agnar Mora. I'M never gonna be mad that he's gonna be nominated for an Oscar, perhaps, or whatever, but I don't get why it's for this film. And then I saw the ending and I was like, okay, I understand.

[A]

Yeah, I don't wanna. This movie's been even far less seen than Hamnet thus far. So I don't wanna spoil the additional devices that the film uses, but it's pretty clever. There's a lot going on here, and I think this movie will not be for everybody, for sure. And it is extremely indulgent in its runtime. But I like the hang, like you said. I liked being around all of these particular characters who kind of find themselves living together in this adopted community of refugees. So I think it's really cool.

[C]

I think the One Battle comp. Is interesting because the thing that I felt coming out of One Battle was dazed and amazed at how cohesive a movie that should feel. So Shambling felt. That's how I felt about One Battle. That's not how I feel about this movie. But what that means is that there are sequences in this movie that really, really work for me. Like when Wagner Moura and his wife are at dinner with an absolute asshole. Or, you know, there's, like. There's just vignettes that work really, really well. But it is so all over the map with its tone and which characters you're following in any given moment that there were some moments where I was checked out, but then there were some moments where I was really dialed in.

[B]

Shambling. It is shambling. But I felt like the carnival scene when the Wagner Mora character goes into that, I was like, this is great. That seems. I would like to be a part of that.

[C]

And the color tone, the Kodachrome sort of burnt golden coloring is great, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, okay, let's take a quick break and talk about our favorite performances. Okay. And now it's time for a segment brought to you by Coca Cola. This has been such a special year for actors that we love.

[B]

There's something so joyful about watching actors you have a big relationship with at the top of their game. And those moments are even better with a Coca Cola by your side.

[A]

So is there a performance from an actor that you have a big relationship to that you want to spotlight here?

[B]

As we know, I'm an Olivia Colman diehard. Ride or Die. Since the Crown and also maybe other. Anyway, she's been in a lot of things I love. And this year in the United States, we should clarify, she was in Paddington in Peru As a nun, borrowing heavily from the Sound of Music. And this was the first film I ever took my young son to in a theater. And so my son loves Paddington. I love Olivia Colman. We got to go together. He mostly behaved, and I thought she was very funny. It's a very classic, accomplished actor doing silly things in a big budget movie. And it brought me a lot of joy.

[A]

It's a great pick. I'm glad you mentioned your son. I am a son as well. A son of Ethan Hawke, one of my faves. We had our dad here on the show earlier this year. His performance in Blue Moon is absolutely wonderful. Transporting, fascinating portrayal of a composer and writer of music for the stage near the end of his life. Truly heartbreaking. Something we've never really seen from Hawk before. Nice to see that, you know, there's still moves inside of his bag, some things we haven't seen. And so he's definitely my pick. And whether it's on the big screen or in a bottle, joy is always better when it's shared with the people that you love. So refresh your holidays this season with Coca Cola. So the assignment was 10 performances each. The assignment was not pleased. Predict the top 10 leading performances at the Academy Awards this year. I said maybe one or two of those, and then the rest. Let's have a little bit of fun. You like this exercise?

[C]

Yeah, I love this.

[A]

Did you used to do this on little Goldman?

[C]

I don't know that I ever did this, but I feel like I did it with you guys last year.

[A]

Did you? You did do it with us. Yes, that's right.

[B]

I was just making an adjustment that I thought of in the car because we have some overlap.

[A]

I changed one as well to avoid overlap.

[B]

And I like the overlap, but. Oh, but the.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[B]

But I made another one just to spread the wealth, as it were. But I kept a couple of the overlaps. Cause I think cons is fun.

[A]

That's fine by me. What was your number one last year? Do you remember?

[C]

I don't. I don't.

[B]

What was my number one? What movies were last year?

[A]

Does anything matter?

[B]

I was thinking Anora won last year.

[C]

I was thinking about the films at the Oscars last year and how like Conclave and Honora and Emilia Perez don't feel like they exist anymore.

[B]

Yes, right.

[C]

I don't think that'll be true for, like a one Battle, Sinners game.

[A]

Conclave does. Because the new pope saved cinema.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, that was tough how he went into.

[C]

He.

[A]

He took over the pope chair.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then he was like, all these filmmakers need to come to Italy and hang out with me. And then Netflix bought Warner Brothers.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so what happened there?

[B]

You know what?

[A]

There is no God. That's what happened.

[C]

The church isn't gonna save us, I guess.

[A]

God damn it. Who wants to start?

[C]

I'll start.

[B]

Great.

[A]

I like that we did a similar thing.

[B]

I like at the top. Yeah, this. This is a good pick. I like this one.

[C]

So I just want to highlight Jane Austen Wrecked My Life, which is a very small movie, French film. Delightful. Just absolutely delightful. Didn't it make you feel like you were in the 90s?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Felt like a 90s, like, next up, Wonderland. Sort of just, like, cozy indie film. I absolutely loved it. And the. The main actress, Camille Rutherford, I had never seen anything, and I just thought she was just, like, perfect anchor of this. It's not a dorky, whimsical Jane Austen movie, but it is about a woman who works in Shakespeare and Company. Right. And gets a fellowship to go work on her writing inside of the context of her Jane Austen fandom or whatever. Then there's debate about whether or not Jane Austen is actually a legitimate writer inside of it. But it's not like, take your aunt and have some tea on some frilly doilies kind of movie. It's just like a movie movie about real people trying to be. That's how it felt like to me.

[B]

But this also is my culture is indie movies with the words Jane Austen in the title. So it's really a thank you. Thank you for honoring both of us.

[A]

I haven't seen this film.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I should check it out.

[C]

It's really good.

[B]

Do you know any of the novels that Jane Austen wrote? Pop quiz. Can you name all six of them? Go.

[A]

Emma.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Sense and Sensibility.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Persuasion.

[B]

Yep. You got three.

[A]

I think that's probably all I can say.

[B]

Okay. You're missing one really big one.

[C]

The biggest one.

[B]

The big one.

[C]

The biggest one.

[A]

Joe Wright, Pride and Prejudice. Those are all the ones that have film adaptations.

[C]

And then the last two are locations.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

One is, like, Thackeray Cottage.

[B]

Correct. Sure.

[A]

I don't know the other two. That was pretty good.

[B]

Mansfield park and Northanger is Park.

[A]

Mansfield Park. I've seen Wonderful. Yes. Starring Frances o', Connor, who I. Yeah. What's the sixth one?

[B]

Northanger.

[C]

Northanger.

[B]

Probably, like, the least known of her earliest six.

[A]

Not bad.

[B]

Needing to be prompted for Pride and.

[C]

Prejudice is a little tough, but other than that, I'm Persuasion on that.

[A]

I didn't know there was Going to be a test on this episode, and it wasn't Shakespeare. How dare you, Amanda, number 10.

[B]

Sure, I've cheated and I have three. It's a collection of performances under the umbrella of really accomplished actors having fun with some budgets. And it is Rosamund pike and now youw See Me, now youw Don't. Colman Domingo in the Running man and tobias Menzies in F1.

[A]

Yes. This is the villain corridor.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah, I like it.

[C]

Colman Domingo and the Running man was like, you know, so good.

[B]

This is a great tradition in history when our great, great actors, many of whom have British accents, show up just to be bad, bad guys in a movie.

[A]

It is a great tradition. It's also a great tradition of I need to add a wing to my home. You know, I need a cool. I need a boat. Yep, I need a boat. And I don't.

[C]

Domingo enjoys his boat.

[A]

I do too.

[C]

Do you think he got a smaller dinghy for Wicked for Good? Like to go with his the Running man boat?

[A]

I hope so. All three of these characters are utterly preposterous. They make no sense. They're very enjoyable. They're very charismatic in their own way.

[B]

They all have the moment also where they get the one scene where they're like, oh, I see why you said yes to this.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

Or in Rosamund Pike's case, the accent.

[A]

Did you see Naesimi Naido?

[C]

Guess what? I didn't.

[B]

Can I tell you who she plays, please? She plays a South African diamond princess.

[C]

Oh, no.

[B]

Yes, she does. And she is going for the accent.

[C]

Okay. On a scale of like, Leo and Blood diamond to an actual person from South Africa, where our Leo and Blood Diamond. Shh.

[A]

But, like, I would recommend it just.

[B]

From the, you know, but like, from the British accent to Leo and blood.

[C]

You know, just all over the map.

[A]

Okay. My number 10 is also themed. It's comic Relief inside of comedies. The funniest parts of a movie that I thought was pretty funny. Conor o' Malley in Friendship. My Beloved. Just truly the funniest person on earth. Best known for his viral videos and work writing on late night television shows. But entering the garage and berating Tim Robinson is one of my favorite things.

[B]

Hysterical.

[A]

Also, I think we should still be in Afghanistan. Probably the funniest line in the movie. And then Danny Houston. I was a little bit more mixed on the Naked Gun. I really wanted to love the Naked Gun, but everything Danny Houston did, it's very similar to the Rosamund pike performance where I'm like this motherfucker committed to the Naked Gun.

[C]

He's went all in.

[A]

He's really doing it. And delivering absurd lines. He's also very funny. Opposite Pamela Anderson, whose name. Fake name, escapes me. Is like. It's like Angela spaghetti and meatballs. And he keeps calling her by her full name throughout the entire movie. But I. These two probably made me laugh more than anybody short of Leo in one battle. So that's my number ten. Okay. Number nine, Johanna.

[C]

This is the award for just playing himself, but he's always welcome. It's Michael Cera and the Phoenician scheme and the Running Man. Just when he shows up in the Running man, my interest just went through the roof. And I just had the best time in the minutes that he is there in that movie.

[A]

Do you think the movie is better if it's Michael Cera in the Glen Powell role?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Have you considered that? I kind of do.

[C]

Yeah. I kind of do. With wigs and accents.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Doing bits, you know, fake mustaches, a.

[A]

Little bit less punching and kicking.

[B]

Yeah. I had literally no idea what was happening when Michael Cera was on screen. I was laughing, but I did not understand.

[A]

He was the son of a dissident who had created a series of traps in his house in the event that the nation state came to his traps.

[C]

It was the home Alone sequence.

[B]

I'm not saying he was.

[A]

His father was a police officer.

[C]

He left the force because the teams.

[A]

Are involved, and he became. Became a hot dog vendor as a show of resistance to the encroaching media.

[C]

But the moment that he hits the button.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I didn't know why he.

[B]

Was hitting the button.

[A]

I was, like, helping the Super Soaker.

[C]

He wanted to kill a bunch of guys. Yeah.

[A]

I think he. I think he just let the chaos take over. Right.

[B]

You can explain this as many times as you want. I'm not never gonna like.

[A]

Huge pot for the Running Man. So far, two. Two performances out of the movie. Never would have guessed a movie that.

[C]

I didn't pretend particularly enjoy. And then the Phoenician scheme. Michael Cera was born to be in this role in a Wes Anderson film.

[A]

He's wonderful. His transformation from the bug tutor to the spy is magic shit. He's really good. I love Michael.

[C]

It's really good.

[A]

Great pick. Okay. Amanda, number nine.

[B]

This was originally two people, but then I cut it down to one because of overlap.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Jack Quaid in Companion, which I think Companion is like the. I just wanted to get it in on one of our lists.

[A]

You'll see That I did the same.

[B]

Well, that's why I took the other person off. It's like a very, very charming genre movie that totally works. He is. It hangs on two performances, but he communicates the right amount of pathos and smarm, I would say. And he had a little run. But this is the movie when I was like, oh, wow, you are both Meg Ryan incarnate and your own person.

[A]

And Dennis Quaid.

[C]

Exactly.

[D]

Sure.

[A]

He brings a little bit.

[B]

And I was like, this is good for him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Are you a Novocaine fan or.

[B]

I saw it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He was fine in it. Yeah, I was there. I thought I was in the theater. Did you see Novocaine?

[A]

I did. What'd you think?

[C]

I liked it, but I saw it, like, at home on streaming. So, like, low. It didn't feel like a real movie movie.

[A]

Yeah. If you remove all the Nepo babies stuff from Jack Quaid, he just kind of does look like a guy who should be in a movie. Like, he seems like a guy who should be in a movie in 1988 or 1968. Like, he just. He could hold a movie together. And that is not to be underrated. I think this one, he's very good in that.

[C]

I think once he's done with the Boys, I'm interested to see what happens.

[A]

Where he goes, oh, I didn't know.

[B]

He was in the boys.

[C]

He's like the main character. Okay.

[B]

Well, speaking of new wings on your house.

[D]

New.

[A]

I just swapped this name in to avoid some overlap with you, but I've just put Chase Infinity from one battle after another, which is pretty revelatory. And I think we're overlooking it now because she's like, whatever. Like, the brand ambassador for what? Like, Louis Vuitton or something? She's about to be, like, very famous.

[B]

Chanel.

[A]

Chanel. Thank you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is big because that's there. It's back.

[A]

Great. I'm excited.

[B]

I would love to be a brand ambassador for Chanel.

[A]

Okay. Sofia Coppola, Chase Chanel.

[C]

Are you listening? Amanda's ready.

[B]

They're not, because they haven't sent me any of the stuff. But, yeah, I'm excited for her, maybe.

[C]

The people at Chanel are huge Hamnet fans, and they're listening to this song.

[B]

I think Chanel also dressed Teyana Taylor for a recent event, so they're. They're on the one battle team, which is cool.

[C]

Chase Infinity coming from the worst plot twist in a television show that I've seen in the last couple years.

[A]

Literally the center of the worst Plot twist.

[C]

The twist herself.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

To this tremendous performance is just a real comeback.

[A]

It's pretty amazing. And I think not just being able to hold her own, but the movie effectively becoming hers. Like it becoming emotional Louis Vuitton.

[B]

Yeah. I'm sorry. And then it was Teyana Taylor who was Chanel. I. I wish that she were Chane. Yeah. Chanel.

[C]

Amanda's still interested.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think she's terrific in this movie. And it's very. It's always exciting when a new person arrives and can take a movie away from Sean Penn and Benicio Del Toro and Leonardo DiCaprio. And, you know, Alan Siegel was telling. He just interviewed James Cameron about the new Avatar film, and he's publishing a piece soon, and he shared some thoughts about Chase Infinity's performance and what he responded to, which I assume is going in the story that Alan is writing. But a strong woman who knows how to wield a gun is something that Jim Cameron has explored before.

[C]

He's experienced with.

[A]

Yeah. And he had nice things to say about her work, too.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

Okay. Number eight, Joanna.

[C]

So this is a Duel Award. So Freaky Tales, a bowdoin and fleck joint that came out this year, set in Oakland in the 80s and should have been sort of for me with Pedro Pascal and Ben Mendelsohn. If you want to talk about Shaggy, this is, like, one of the shaggier films this year. It's, like, really mixed. But there is a vignette inside of it with Normani and Dominique Thorne, who play these girls who engage in this rap battle, and it's just. I loved it. Pedra Pascal is here. Ben Medelson are here. Two of my favorite, most charismatic people.

[A]

Tom Hanks is there. Tommy.

[C]

They're not holding it down, but Dominique Thorne and Normani are, and they were just really, really fun. And just looking at them standing outside Grand Lake Theater, which is my theater palace in Oakland, was just really, really fun.

[A]

I'm glad you mentioned it. We didn't even talk about this movie this year. I think it was a Sundance 24 film, and then it got a release later this year. I don't think it's very successful. I also enjoyed Jay Ellis, though, as Sleepy Floyd in the final third of the movie. I thought he was very fun, too. He gets to be like. Like a kung fu fighting defeater of home invaders. It's like, it's an entertaining enough movie that doesn't really work. Okay. Number eight, Amanda.

[B]

Robert Pattinson in Mickey 17. This movie didn't totally work. For me. But he did. He has to do a lot. And I. I swing the biggest swing.

[C]

I find his voice swing outside.

[B]

I find this man incredibly watchable. Yes, that's a good point. It's maybe the biggest swing because it doesn't land quite like Rosamund Pikes does. I find this man very watchable, as do many people because he is Batman. But I. I like that he did it. I like his weird hot movie star vibe. I like that there are directors who still want to let him be really weird, but not too weird. I. There was a note to dial the voice back slightly right. From director Bong. That's.

[C]

That's the dialed back.

[B]

I think that we did in fact see the dialed back version. Anyway, I think it's cool when movie stars try things.

[A]

I fully agree.

[C]

I agree.

[A]

I like the way that he is navigating his career. Did you guys watch the teaser for the drama?

[B]

No, because I don't want any spoilers.

[C]

I saw the Engagement. Yeah. Though in the Boston Globe.

[A]

Yes. That was a very clever bit of marketing. Yeah. The drama. Very excited about that.

[C]

I'm excited about it. But I was really excited about Mickey 17 as well.

[A]

Fair point. Christopher Borgli's last movie was Dream Scenario and. And the drama stars Zendaya and Robert Pattinson. It's a pretty big deal coming in April. My number eight is Inge Ipsdotter Lilius, the Norwegian actress who plays Renate Runzve's sister in Sentimental Value, a film that. I'm going to say it once more. I really like that movie a lot and I will not be talked down. I think it's simultaneously very funny and absolutely devastating.

[B]

I think she's wonderful in it.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Don't you think she's to going.

[A]

I do think she will be nominated. I do. When I saw the movie, I thought she would win. And now I feel like Teyana Taylor is a freight train in that category, which is surprising to me. But I think she's fantastic. And the scene in particular that I love the most is when Stellan Skarsgard's character, her father, goes to visit her in her apartment so that he can meet up with her son and ask him to participate in the movie that he's going to make. And she becomes very upset and remembers the feelings that she had when they made a movie together when she was a young girl and that feeling of abandonment when he left and did not spend any time with her after that incredibly powerful experience when she was a young kid, not unlike some of the hamnet experience in the movie. And this is a movie with some very celebrated actors. And I'd never seen this actress before, and I thought she was by far the most real person in the movie and very, very special. So that's number eight. Number seven.

[C]

I think a theme of my list is sort of like highlighting great performances in movies that didn't work for me. So Kiss of the Spider Woman, a movie that I didn't think was gonna hit, didn't really hit for me. But Tonatua, who plays sort of the main character, despite what Jennifer Lopez would have you believe of this film. Luis Molina is, I thought, was fantastic. And he's in the role that William Hurt played in the original film version. There's been, you know, a musical stage version. This is the musical movie version, and he has to narrate basically the entire movie. And he is incredibly handsome, incredibly charismatic. I watched this. I had seen the other version of Kisses Better Women years ago, but I rewatched it after I watched this version. And watching William Hurt do a sort of, like, swishy Queenie, like, really over the top version of this character, and then watching this queer man embody this character, I just thought this was like, a really, really good, like, intro to a performer that I wasn't very familiar with.

[A]

This has been on my list, and I still haven't watched it. I've kind of been dreading watching it because I know it's, like, well over two hours and not a huge Bill Condon fan, and it's not gotten very good reviews. But I will watch it in part because of the performance that you're citing, which apparently is quite good.

[C]

Really, really good. Diego Luna is also here. Diego Luna, one of my favorite performers, is just completely overshadowed by this.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

So, yeah, okay.

[A]

Number seven to me.

[B]

Number seven. Kiki Palmer and Sza. One of Them Days, which I love this movie. Meant to include on honorable mentions of our best movies of the year and forgot to. Just a really delightful comedy. And there's, you know, I think, like, the cute version of this list would just be putting Sza on it because she's sort of a breakout comedic star and she's really very funny in this. But the chemistry that she has with Keke Palmer, who's so charming and is, like, driving the film, is very special. They're great together. This is a delightful movie.

[A]

I agree. I would love it if it was sort of like the Road to Bob Hope style, where they just did a new one of these every two years. That would be really fun. That would Be great, because they're really fantastic together. Sza. Who knew? Who knew.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not easy being a comic actress after, like. Does Sza have training as an actor?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

She's just a fun hang. Keke Palmer. We know. Like, we knew about it. We knew she could do that Anyway. Okay. Number seven for me is Josh o'. Connor. Just Josh o'. Connor. Just writ large. Just everything Josh o' Connor's doing.

[B]

This may come up again.

[C]

Might.

[A]

That includes rebuilding. That includes the Mastermind. That includes Wake Up Dead Man. It even includes the history of Sound, a film I didn't really care for that much, but that I think he's good enough in. I'll just underline rebuilding because we haven't had a lot of time to talk about it. But that's just a movie that I thought was very affecting, very quiet. All three of these kind of core performances are very different. They are all fairly quiet. And o' Connor has to listen a lot in these movies while also being inside of his own kind of narcissism. And it's so different because my wife just finished watching Wake Up Dead man and she was like, she didn't love it. And she didn't love it in part because she felt like Joshua Connor didn't get to be sexy. Right. In Challenger, she was like this fucking dirtbag. This is really appealing, you know? And to me, that was like a testimony to his greatness, you know, like, that he can kind of.

[C]

She's the one watching me eat a churro all day long. That's her preference.

[A]

She enjoyed that, as did I, frankly. Yeah.

[C]

Who didn't?

[B]

But the thighs.

[A]

His range is pretty. Pretty cool to watch right now. And it's always fun when, just by randomness of the schedule, a guy gets to be in four movies at one time. It's very. It's increasingly uncommon.

[C]

He's doing multiple movies for the last couple years. He's just really running it.

[A]

And we know he's now going to be in the Spielberg film, which is a. Exciting. Okay, Joe. Number six.

[C]

Odessa Azion for Marty Supreme.

[A]

Ooh, I had this on and took it off.

[B]

Yeah, good one.

[C]

Great. Pamela Adlin has graced us with some great performers, both out of her show and out of her loins. And I thought she was fantastic in Marty Supreme, a movie that I don't think I'm as high on as you guys are, but I thought she was just, like, really, really electric. As Marty's, like, childhood friend who gets involved in several of the capers along the way. And it is very important because of the decisions that a lot of characters make in this movie. It is very important that you are emotionally with her through some of her decisions. And I just found her really appealing, really funny, really sexy, really all. All these things. And just, like, absolutely mesmerizing.

[B]

This is me right now learning that she's Pamela Adlon's daughter. I had no idea. Which is a credit to her. She's great.

[A]

Yeah, she's fantastic in this movie. That character is very fun as well. Yeah. Great pick. Number six, Amanda.

[B]

So this is my original number six. Then I changed it because you had changed your list. Because of your list, but then you changed yours, so I changed it back. So we're going with Tom Burke and Black Bag, which I think deserves its own number six, Black Bag. Another movie that we all really enjoyed, but I think didn't make any of, like, the top. The top tens. Just because it's. I mean, I don't want to diminish Steven Soderbergh in his bag making, like, a spy dinner party thriller just for fun. But that is its own thing now, you know, Let us not take it for granted. But Tom Burke is up against Cate Blanchett, Michael Fassbender, like, just Marisa Abella, really, quite literally.

[A]

Please.

[B]

And he is so funny and commanding. And the lie detector scene in particular with him. He's the right amount of charming and smooth and amused. And also, what the hell are we doing that the film needs? Because everybody else is on one of those polls, and I guess he is sort of the audience stand in the movie. But that's a hard thing to be in a Soderbergh film where they're poking everyone. So I.

[A]

He starts as the villain and evolves into something way different. And you can never totally read him. It's just like him in the Souvenir, where you're like, what is that?

[B]

I mean, he's such a great actor.

[A]

Yeah, he is a good actor.

[C]

You know, he shows up in anything.

[A]

He shows up in Mank.

[C]

Furiosa.

[A]

Furiosa. That's right.

[C]

You know, and you're sort of like, oh, wow, is this a great movie? And then he's gone. You're like, no.

[A]

Precisely. Okay, what is my number six? Let's peel back to my list. Oh, yeah. Sophie Thatcher from Companion, who, you know, from your days covering yellow jackets and who has also been having a big couple of years and I think has.

[C]

Been looking Boba Fett erasure.

[A]

Didn't see that. 1. I also enjoyed her in Heretic last year. I enjoyed her in the Boogeyman, which was not successful, but she was very good in it. And she's, you know, there's a little bit of Jamie Lee Curtis, I would say, in Sophie Thatcher. Interesting.

[C]

Tell me why.

[A]

Well, very strong, but very vulnerable, very smart, very kind of fast talking, but also is often in danger. And that's like a scream queen kind of Persona. You know, she's kind of pursuing it. If you look at the projects that she's getting cast in, this movie is interesting because it's kind of like Larsan, the real girl meets Terminator. And that's a clever idea for a movie. I agree with you. I think this is just a really fun. Down the middle, you know, three star, six out of ten. Like, had a nice, nice, really nice time.

[B]

Fun finding, clever. You know, I went, huh, that's good. Many times.

[A]

And she just like Jack Quaid. I'm like, just more movies with her. That would be great if we could just get one of these a year with her. That would be exciting.

[C]

She's definitely the performer out of yellow jackets who is making, like, the smartest choices. Book of Boba Fett aside, which was terrible, but, like, she's making really smart choices.

[A]

Not in on Ella Purnell.

[C]

Ella Purnell is great, but she's stuck in Fallout Land for a little bit, so we'll see where she goes.

[B]

So it's a book about Boba Fett.

[A]

It.

[C]

It's a. Don't worry about it.

[A]

Honestly. It's a Jonathan Franzen novel.

[C]

I would prefer you go to the beach and get sunburned and read a novel and kiss people and do all.

[B]

The other things that you want to do.

[C]

Okay, Joe, number five, Jonathan Connor. Have you heard of him?

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

Wake Up Deadman. It's fine.

[B]

I think you guys are underrating him. As you'll see as we continue this podcast.

[A]

So specifically for Wake Up, Dead Man.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

I mean, did you like Wake Up, Dead Man?

[C]

I did medium.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I thought in terms of the. The Knives out franchise has failed to do what the first one did, which is make a meal out of every single. Like, there's so many wasted people in Wake Up Dead Man. There's so many people. You're like, why is Andrew Scott here? Like, what. What use are we getting out of him? I loved what Brolin did in this movie, but Josh o' Connor is actually having, like, a soulful journey inside of a Knives out movie and a soulful journey that impacts Daniel Craig in a meaningful way. And so I found it. It added it's not my favorite Knives out movie. I liked it better than two, but it is the sort of the one I will be thinking about the longest I think because there's some real interesting things about faith and community and all kinds of things wrapped up inside of Joshua o' Connor's performance.

[A]

This episode was supposed to be our Wake Up Dead man episode. That will be on Monday, right? So we will get into it it then.

[B]

This episode of the Big Picture is brought to you by State Farm. Having people in your corner to help you makes all the difference. For example, I'm usually loathe to trust Sean and his movie recommendations, but after many months of him waxing rhapsodic about train dreams, I finally watched it. And I have to be honest, he was right. It was wonderful.

[A]

And like those people, State Farm is there to help you feel supported by helping you choose the coverage you need. Go [e-mail] or use the award winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[B]

All right, Amanda, Number five, Rebecca Ferguson, House of Dynamite. Tracy Letts, if you're listening, I declared you ineligible because of conflict of interest. An anti corruption stance that we're taking here on the big picture.

[A]

Are we?

[C]

I can't say the same, but Chanel, if you're listening, but Chanel.

[B]

They'Re making charvet shirts. Do you know how much they cost?

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I don't have the budget for that. Anyway, I liked this movie more than Shawn did and I think what I really liked about it was the first third which is the Rebecca Ferguson.

[C]

Definitely the best.

[B]

Yet another mom on screen just trying to do her best and the world is making it quite literally impossible and the ramifications are quite bad. And again, and I felt pretty nauseous watching this, but I think that she is. It's a very unflashy performance and she sets the stakes so high in this movie that I think much of it can't live up to it. But she's very good.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

She is very good. Some notes on her accent. Not really sure what state in the United States she's from. What do you think? Minnesota?

[C]

Tennessee? Tennessee maybe she's an army brat, moved around a lot.

[A]

Yeah, definitely.

[C]

That's her backstory.

[A]

I like her quite a bit. My number five is Maryam Afshari who plays Shiva in It Was Just an Accident Jafar Panahi film and she plays A photographer and a woman who was engaged in the same capture and torture that the lead character in the film undergoes. I feel that this is the best written character in the movie and the best performance in the movie. The character who most clearly represents the rage and frustration and determination to find out the truth and to find justice, but also to put the past in the past and the way that those two ideas are sometimes in conflict with each other. And this is an actress I haven't seen before, and she is absolutely incredible. And she had to perform, as all the performers did, in secret. This movie was made in secret so that the Iranian government did not become aware of it. And she has felt the most like a real person in this thriller that is, like, sometimes absurd and very funny. She felt like the person who was engaged in the deepest pain in the story. Okay, number four.

[C]

Oh, this is me. So Nouvelle Vague, which is the linkletter film that I liked most this year. Zoe Deutsch is the. Is the sort of, like, face of this movie because she is a recognizable actor and she speaks English. But I think the revelations of this movie were Guillaume Marbek and Aubrey Dillon as Jean Luc Godard and Jean Paul Belmondo, respectively. These are guys who've never acted before, and I just thought they were fantastic. Especially Guillaume Marbek was, as Jean Godard, was just, like, eccentric, sexy, like, just captivating, intellectual, but capricious. And just like that pain in the ass that you understand why people put up with. Because when he is cooking, he is cooking. And I just thought he was. It's essential that he works in this film. And I thought he was so, so good. And I was just really shocked to learn that he had never acted.

[A]

Yeah, that is really surprising.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They are both, like, spitting images of the two characters that they're playing, too, which is presumably why they were cast. But Linklater needs to know what he's doing with actors.

[C]

Okay, did you guys like Nuval Vogue or you were not.

[A]

That was fine.

[B]

Charmed. But that performance, he is annoying in an irresistible way that I think is, like, essential to the movie. And also, I mean, I was just gonna say recognizable. It's just, like, literally my brain. I mean, how many times have I been, you know, faced with that?

[A]

An annoying, irresistible cinephile.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Could we build a podcast around that?

[C]

When are you gonna make your movie, Sean?

[A]

Oh, certainly never.

[B]

Okay, number four.

[A]

Number four for you.

[B]

This is the first names that I thought of when confronted with this spreadsheet assignment. For performances. Tramell Tillman and Katie o' Brien, Mission Impossible the Final Reckoning.

[A]

These are great picks.

[B]

Listen, this movie, we can say it now. We're several months from our emotional experience, and it just doesn't work. I rewatched it on the plane, which makes me happy.

[C]

You had a moment of clarity.

[B]

Listen, I watched it on the plane at Thanksgiving because I could watch it without sound because I have dealing with the children. And I texted Sean from the plane. I paid 30 bucks for wi Fi to text Sean to be like, yo, what was happening in this movie? What a mess. But then Tramell Tillman and Katie o' Brien show up, and I like, I have pictures on my phone that I took of the screen being like, my friends are here. When they come on the screen, they're the only people who understand what the movie is supposed to be and are, like, bringing some flair to it and are also looking at Tom Cruise in the way that I think one should look at Tom Cruise after he's jumped into the sea. And Ben rescued by divers.

[C]

What does that look. Look like?

[B]

I can't. I mean, you missed it.

[C]

She kind of went for it.

[B]

It's like, I. You know, and he's like, framed. Trammell Tillman is, like, framed in the door, just so being like, mm.

[A]

He's like, you must be out of your mind.

[B]

Really, really great moments of levity in a film that is just way, way, way too tied up in itself. If all of the characters had been able to channel this, it could have been at least a good movie. Maybe. No. I don't know.

[C]

Have you also had a final reckoning with Mission Impossible?

[A]

Finally, I said it on the pod that we did. It's the heartbreak of the year for me. I mean, I love the Mission Impossible movies, and the biggest testimony to the heartbreak is the fact that I've rewatched every Mission Impossible movie at least five times, and I've only seen this movie once. In fact, you went to go see it with Jack a second time before we recorded. I couldn't make that second recording. I think maybe the episode that we did is slightly incoherent because I couldn't remember a lot from the first screening.

[B]

And also, the movie itself is not coherent.

[A]

But that was part of the issue, is the movie is kind of hard to understand because the script is such a mess and it's devastating. I love this franchise. I really believe in McQuarrie as a writer and director, and I think the movie stinks. So it sucks. But they're great. And I agree with these picks. They're a Lot of fun. And there's two great action sequences in the movie and everything else is kind of risible. Okay, number four for me. What is it? What did I write down? Oh, yeah, I'm proud of this. A$AP Rocky in highest to Lowest, and Archie Madekwe and Lurker are playing kind of the same role in reverse. They're both playing musicians. One aspiring, one accomplished one is playing a young musician who is kind of looking up to someone who's reached a higher status of success in the music industry. In the case of A$AP Baraki's character, who's a rapper, who. Who kidnaps his idol's son's best friend accidentally leading to this intrigue throughout New York City. Archie madequay plays a kind of like somewhere between Drake and Dijon style, LA, hipster, hip hop and R and B star whom a admirer stalker enters the orbit of and eventually grows closer and closer to until he grows too close. Lurker has not really been seen that much. I think it's one of the coolest debuts of the year. Archie Madequi, I thought, was absolutely terrible in Saltburn. Really one of my favorite performances of that year. And I think he's very, very good. It's a really well observed performance about what a person with power in a small room can do. And asap, man, he's just pure charisma. The sequence when he and Denzel are kind of rapping back and forth at each other, I know a lot of people thought that movie was kind of a mess, but. But them on screen I thought were just fantastic. And he really holding his own against one of the very best was pretty impressive. Okay, number three.

[B]

Wait, can I just let you know that A$AP rakhti is also a Chanel ambassador?

[A]

That's great.

[B]

Yeah, Newly named.

[A]

You keep making it sound like you belong amongst them.

[C]

You don't think. When you think asap, Rocky, you don't think.

[B]

I'm tracking it.

[A]

Okay, noted.

[B]

He was also very good in if I had Legs, I'd kick you.

[A]

He was. He was very good in that. Yeah. Okay, Joe. Number three.

[C]

Dylan o', Brien, Twinless. I loved Twinless. Like sort of Jane Austen wrecked my Life. And another movie I'm going to talk about in my number two. There were a lot of little films that I really, really loved this year. Twinless, I thought was just extremely watchable. Dylan o' Brien is playing a dual role and sort of similar to some other things that we've talked about inside of this very podcast. Like you don't appreciate how good one role is until you see the second role. And then you're like, wow, he's doing two very different things very convincingly. And they really just sort of complement and highlight each other. And, you know, he's like a slacker, extremely straight dude. And then he's just like a really kind of hilariously mean gay dude and really, really embodies both. And the twin who, you know twin less. The premise of this movie is one of the twins has.

[A]

Has.

[C]

Has died. And when he shows up, which is a good way into the movie, you understand why the loss of him was. Was such a big deal for the characters around him because he is so electric. And I just love. I. I really think Dylan o', Brien, like Jack Quaid, should be in a lot of movies. And, you know, his career has come and gone due to sort of like, some, you know, injuries in his career, stuff like that. But I just think he's always really good and I would like to see him in a leading role.

[A]

Man, I didn't like this movie at all, but I thought he was fantastic in it and is by far the best part of it. And he's also very good in Saturday Night as Dan Aykroyd, which is a very odd part for him to be playing, but he's terrific in that as well. Okay, number three, Amanda.

[B]

In his rightful place at number three on this list is Josh o' Connor for Wake Up Deadman, the mastermind and all of the promotional materials that he's been doing specifically for History of Sound and Wake Up Up Deadman. Yeah, he and, like, Paul Mescal did a lot of great work together off screen or on smaller screens.

[C]

I feel like Paul Mescal burned a lot of his tolerance for the gamification of the press tour on History of Sound. And so now he's at Hammond. He's like, I already did this this year. I gotta do Two Truths and a Lie again.

[B]

But he and Josh o' Connor have real chemistry. Did you see the one where. And I think Josh o' Connor is bringing out a lot of. Of his natural charm. Did you see the red carpet poses?

[C]

Did you see the one? Yes, I saw it. Yeah, it's a really good one.

[B]

See?

[C]

Did you see the one? Yes, I saw it. I saw.

[B]

And now he's, like, doing ASMR with Andrew Scott for Wake Up Deadman. Anyway, we'll talk more about Wake Up Dead man. I was also. I'm not gonna dislike it, but I was mixed on it. But I thought he was an absolute delight. And in addition to, like, the soulfulness that you're talking about, which he brings to every performance, including the Mastermind, he's quite funny. He's very funny. And he and Daniel Craig have a real vibe. And my feedback from Wake Up Deadman is like, please make Josh o' Connor a recurring character in the Knives out franchise.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

You know, like, we need a buddy comedy. But so I think he's wonderful. I think he's really, really funny. And there is something charming about how just everyone clearly feels the same way. And he's in four movies. He's in every single TikTok. People are bringing him ratatouille gifts on the red carpet. We all are just kind of like, oh, that guy. I'm so glad to see him. It's nice to have one of those.

[A]

I was recently served the video of him during a Vanity Fair shoot where he's with Sydney Sweeney and Daniel Deadweiler, and they're chit chatting about their favorite shows. And he starts talking about how much he loves his gardening television show, which I wish I could remember the name of it, but it's very adorable. Little Josh o' Connell voice, how he likes to just sit down, watch a movie man, take care of flowers.

[C]

Smile than he does.

[A]

I know he's great.

[C]

Can I share one quick thing about Wake Up Dead Man? Since I will, I. I want to have the honor of talking to you guys about it in full. I watched it on an award screener. Those things are captioned. They're usually captioned very well because these are award screeners. At one point, Daniel Craig says, telling the truth can be a bitter herb. And the close. Thank you. The closed captioning said, telling the truth can be a belly rub. That's what the closed captioning said. And I was like, wow. He defeated them with his accent. We rewound it like five times. I was like. He said, bitter herb.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Not belly rub.

[A]

Really got the meaning.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. My number three is my girl, Amanda Seyfried, in the testament of Anne Lynn.

[C]

Incredible.

[B]

So good.

[A]

I gotta see this movie again. She's fucking nailing this. Obviously, I haven't seen the Mamma Mia films. Not aware of her ability to sing.

[B]

Or Les Miserable or.

[A]

I have not seen Les Miserable.

[C]

I've never seen Les Miserables.

[A]

No.

[B]

I need the Amanda Seyfried Oscar nom to come through one, because she deserves it. Number two, because then Amanda Seyfried's singing programming for Sean is gonna be incredible in 2020.

[C]

Have you seen her sing Joni Mitchell on the Tonight Show?

[A]

Well, yes. In fact, that was one of the most impactful things that happened to me in 2024. And I shared that video on the Internet and I said, God damn it, make this happen. What is the instrument that she's playing, the lap instrument?

[C]

Dulcimer, I think.

[A]

Dulcimer, yeah. Incredible shit. She's amazing in this movie. This movie is ridiculous in a good way. It's a very over the top, fantastical portrayal of a real life religious movement and it breaks into fits of song at various intervals. And her commitment is why the movie works. I think if she's not working in this movie, then you don't buy it because she is the sort of of religious leader slash cult figure at the center of this new movement. It's Mona Fastfold's new movie. The co writer of the Brutalist and partner of Brady Courbet. Those two movies together, the ways in which they are deadly serious and the ways in which they're hilarious are fascinating to me. They're very much twinned and we'll talk about it more in January when more people get a chance to see it. Okay, number two, Joe.

[C]

Newly minted Golden Globe nominee Eva Victor. This is my favorite moment of the Golden Globe announcements that Eva Victor got nominated for Sorry Baby. I loved Sorry Baby. This is her project. Right. She wrote, directed and starred in this. This was a. This is a tough film to get your arms around, I think, and a tough film to land because it is dealing with something incredibly serious in a. In a oftentimes hilarious, oftentimes absurd, and then oftentimes devastating way. And I think she hits all of those notes and it's not something that I thought the Globes was going to. I was shocked give any attention to and it really, really made me happy. I thought this was such a. Like a couple other names on my list. Like a really important announcement of someone whose work I am going to be following. I mean I was aware of her on like TikTok and stuff like that, but just I think everything that she makes I'm going to be interested in checking it out going forward.

[A]

Great pick. I like this movie a lot too. Okay. Number two, Amanda.

[B]

So when we were making these lists or our pre chat, we decided that 2 and 1 would be like our. Our serious ones or the ones like.

[C]

A bigger actual performance.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Or you know, the awards one still with awards chances.

[C]

As opposed.

[B]

As opposed to. With respect to Tramel Tillman and Katie o'. Brien, like the Fun picks.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

So I'm. I'm grouping my two moms together here. Rose Byrne and Jennifer Lawrence. Rose Byrne is in if I had legs, I'd kick you. And Jennifer Lawrence in Die My Love. These are two of my favorite movies of the year. We talked about them on the top five episode, and it has been a year of moms and dads, and I think that these are the performances that I saw myself the most in because they are white women of similar to my age. So it's really, you know, that's.

[A]

You're saying you do see color when you look at women?

[B]

Oh, no, I was just, you know, I also really. I did also see myself in Teyana Taylor's One Battle After Another. We don't have any One battle after Another. Oh, we do.

[A]

Chase infinity. Yeah, we have chase infinity.

[B]

Oh, chase infinity.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But to your point, I do think that she's gonna win supporting actress, and I definitely think she'll be nominated. So I was, you know, and I guess Rose Byrne is in the fight. I don't think Jennifer Lawrence is gonna.

[A]

Be in the fight. Lead actress. Lead actress.

[C]

You were talking about Teyana Taylor.

[A]

I'm talking about Teyana Taylor.

[B]

Tianna Taylor will win supporting. And that is a performance of motherhood that I also really related to Al. So we have some significant differences, not just the color of our skin, but also our revolutionary involvement.

[A]

You are even more violent.

[B]

Sure, that's right. But I think Rose Byrne will make it in. I don't know if Jennifer Lawrence will make it in for Die my Love because it's a pretty crowded year and that movie has been overlooked or underseen. But I thought they were both great and to the Jesse Buckley point, very raw performances in different ways that got different emotions out of me, but that I recognized. So it's still very human. So shout out to both of them.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit. For the next one, just go to LinkedIn.com TheBigPicture Terms and Conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Scout Motors. There's something so cozy and charming about watching all your old favorite Christmas movies this time of year. Well, the all new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler are capturing the same magical nostalgic feeling and reimagining it for the future. They're drawing on iconic heritage and new engineering to envision capability for snowy drives, family visits and spontaneous detours just like the ones you see on the screen. Scout Motors is designing what comes next. Join the wait [e-mail] Concept vehicles not available for sale. Features and performance specifications are preliminary and subject to change. Joining the waitlist does not guarantee purchase. Visit scoutmotors.com for details. Great pick. I just realized I can double up on my next one. So my next pick is Lee Byung Hun, who people may know from I saw the Devil or Squid Game. He gave two performances this year. The first performance that he'll probably be most recognized for is his work and no other choice. The new Park Chan Wook movie, which was my third favorite movie of the year and is an absolute masterclass in satire and action storytelling. The other one is K Pop Demon Hunters and I remember vividly watching K Pop Demon Hunters for the first time and seeing his name in the credits and turning to my 4 year old and telling her how excited I was about this and she could not have given less of a fuck. And the part that he plays, I want to make sure I get the actual character down he plays in this in K Pop Demon Hunters. The demon, yes, like the Leo Massive Mountain Demon, which is kind of an interesting use of Lee Byun Hun.

[C]

I had to spend so much time covering Squid Game the last year in a way that was really tough for me actually. And he's really good in a show that had a really bad second season, second and third season. I heard his voice in K Pop Demon. I was like, oh my God, he's here. He's incredible.

[A]

But he has a really tall task and no other choice. He has to be funny, he has to be desperate, he has to be sad, he has to be violent, he has to be crazed, he has to be. You know my favorite scene in that movie without spoiling anything is when he goes in for a job interview and the sunlight is beaming into his eyes and he's trying to focus and trying to nail the interview and not say the wrong thing that his friend has told him not to say and make sure that he presents himself in a way that he's an appealing job applicant. We've all been there. It's a tough spot. He's very funny and very discomforting in that moment.

[B]

It's a very arch movie, but he still has to be a real human in it.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Number one, Jessie Buckley Hamnet.

[C]

I just. I'll add her to your. Your two Moms and say great year for moms who are going through it. And I already said everything I need to say about her. I just think she's tremendous. And I considered not putting her number one because I knew we would have talked about her for a while. But honestly, I just want to cement how I feel about her performance. So.

[A]

Great pick.

[C]

Number one.

[A]

Yeah, we share number one.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it's Timmy. We share a number one with Timothee Chalamet himself, who is out here on the trail, self confident, much like Marnie Supreme. Having seen the film, I am wondering how method he's being right now on his promo tour. But.

[A]

Well, he did something really interesting. He went on the podcast, what do youo Wanna Talk About? Are you familiar with that podcast?

[B]

Yeah, I listen to it every morning.

[A]

Okay. It's hosted by Cody Rhodes, WWE Superstar. And their conversation was all about professional wrestling and his relationship to professional wrestling. I don't know what Timmy's cooking, but he's right inside my brain right now. Like, he is literally talking about the intersection between sports and entertainment. That is a theme of Marty Supreme. That is the definition of professional wrestling. And that it is something that I have often cited while talking about people like the Rock and the way that wrestlers are more well suited to converting to movies than any other athletic figure. Because being able to sell emotion is a real challenge. And him knowing the nitty gritty about wrestling in a certain era and talking shop with Cody Rhodes, who's a world class superstar, just great shit. Marty is amazing.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

I know you're a little more mixed on it. That's good. And yeah, I think starting in that moment when he gave the SAG speech, all the way up until this moment, I do think he's been doing kind of a method thing.

[C]

Do you? How do you feel about my theory that while he's doing his utmost to promote this movie, I don't think he actually wants to win Best Actor this year?

[A]

I don't think he cares that much.

[C]

I don't. Well, I think he cares, but I.

[A]

Don'T think he wants to Go.

[C]

I don't think he wants to go head to head with Leo.

[A]

Maybe.

[C]

I think he doesn't want to be seen trying and not beating Leo when he's trying to position himself as the next Leo.

[A]

I think we're going to learn more about that in January and February after the movie comes out. I think what he's doing now is trying to draw a lot of attention to get people to go see the movie.

[B]

He wants the movie to work, to do well.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And he knows what's riding on it and the power he gets to basically be Leo. If this movie opens well, you know, if this movie. If this movie works business wise, it's not gonna be Titanic, obviously.

[C]

But do you think it will?

[A]

I have my doubts. I hope it does.

[B]

I mean, it's a tough market, which I do also think he knows. I think he's incredibly savvy, you know, and he's a real student, not just of, you know, film and acting, but press tours and celebrity. Celebrity. And is like. And is playing the game very well. So I think he understands what is at stake for him. And he also knows how many of, like, star projects this year have absolutely fallen on their faces.

[A]

Yes. So I think there may be a little something to the Leo thing. And I do know that there's a class of people who think that Leo is actually just gonna coast to number two here. I have felt like it's Chalamet the whole time. I could be wrong.

[B]

You mean a second Oscar as opposed to number to Wagner Mora, which is what I thought you meant when you first said it.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no. Just. Just that he took Oscar number two.

[C]

I think it will depend. If Marty supreme is a big hit at the box office, then Timmy's a threat. But Timmy also is not. Like, he didn't go to the Governor Awards. Like, there's certain things that he's just not doing.

[A]

I know. I think he's trying to carve a new path. Okay. I could be. I. And it might not work. And you might be right. It might be backfiring. But I think he's like, if we're going to change the way this stuff is, there's a new way to do it. It's really bold and could be perceived as arrogant. And I'm sure that there are classical awards systems that don't like this sort of stuff.

[C]

I'm not upset about. I mean, he can do whatever he wants to do. I was just sort of like, he didn't go last year and he missed and I'M just sort of like, well, if you didn't. If you. If you tried to carve your own path last year and you. And you almost, but didn't get it.

[A]

But as soon as Adrien Brody went on stage, everyone in the world was like, shit, we should have went with Timmy, obviously.

[C]

Of course. Yeah. Do you think it's going to be that, like, it should have been you last year kind of win?

[A]

Those happen all the time.

[C]

They do, they do.

[A]

Colin first. That's very much in play. I don't know. We'll see. It's a fun race. It's a fun race because it's, you know, it's now the old master who is more than worthy of two and the guy who, like the industry is on his shoulders and, you know, Zendaya and Tom Holland and a couple of other people. But it's like, if movies are going to keep going, like, he's not making fucking TV shows, he's only making big movies.

[C]

There might be.

[B]

And he's out.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

There might be the idea that Best picture and director and other things are going to go to one battle, that perhaps both supporting categories, if you guys are right about Teyana Taylor, and then they feel like they need to award Marty supreme again. I think it depends if Marty supreme opens. Well.

[A]

We'Ll see.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, let's go now to my conversation with Cleber Mendoza Filho. Very happy to be here with Cleburne Mendoza Filo. So I want to start by talking about your life with movies. So it's such a crucial component of the Secret Agent, but we see a lot of young people going to the cinema and Recife in the film. Do you remember the first movie you saw?

[D]

The first film I saw. And I know this because my mother always told this story. It was a Tom and Jerry marathon right at the San Luis Cinema, which is one of the characters in the Secret Agent. And that movie palace opened in 1952. It's still open. It's one of the great movie palaces in the world. I think today it's absolutely intact and recently restored. And that's where I went to see my first film screening.

[A]

How old?

[D]

This was 1973, so I must have been four, almost five years old.

[A]

Okay, so then take me back to 77 as a filmgoer then, since that's such a critical year for this film.

[D]

77 was a special interesting year, personally, for me, because we had a health crisis in the family. My mother, she had treatment for breast cancer at the time. And the Family really tried to protect the two little kids, myself and my brother. I was 9 at the time. My brother was 7. And my younger uncle Ronaldo, he took us to the cinema many, many times. Crazy amount of times, basically, to take us away.

[A]

From escape.

[D]

Yeah, from home. And that was an interesting moment because as a child, I wasn't really aware of what was happening. And I was going to see lots of movies in the downtown area in Hosifi, which I think explains my previous film, Pictures of Ghosts. Of course, I grew up. I grew up and became a cinephile, and then I did journalism and became a film critic and of course, a filmmaker. But at the time, it felt like a real discovery, not only of films, but also of the downtown area. I remember the smells and the colors, and film going was a big part of being downtown. I think the cinemas attracted thousands and thousands of people every week. And I have many memories of that time. And the interesting thing is, not only do I remember the films I saw at the time, but I also remember the films I never saw at the time, but I would see the posters and the lobby cards, and that really played with. With one's imagination. Because at the time, of course, we had no intranet, and the only way to access films was in the cinema or maybe on television, but also outside. Outside the. You know, in the hall, in the. In the lobby and in the windows on the streets. So that's how I. I first saw, you know, the Omen, which was rated 18 in Brazil at the time, and Jaws, which I only finally saw in the early 80s. And, yeah, so many. So much of that iconography is very much part of my life, you know.

[A]

It'S part of this film, too. Clearly.

[D]

It's part of this film. Yeah. There are many references of film posters in the background. And I like to say that for Pictures of Ghosts, which is a documentary and a film essay, the San Luis cinema in. Is shot like a character, but in this film, the Secret Agent, I think it's shot like an actor, as if it was acting.

[A]

Yeah, it's very alive. I'm curious about the choice to make effectively these two films, which are very paired in some ways, but both memory movies in succession like this. Is it a certain time in your life or why did it come at these times?

[D]

It was never planned because I spent. I did Bakwarao, of course, and it was released in 2019. And I had been playing with the idea of doing a film which would probably be a film essay or maybe a documentary about film going and I had a lot of stuff in my own private archive. And these films, films, you don't really write them. They exist on what you find, on the materials you find. And the more you find, the more you want to make the film. So after going after all my videos and photographs from at the time of university, I expanded and went into the public archives and the Brazilian Cinematheque. And I just kept finding more and more stuff, stuff. And that's how Pictures of Ghosts became a film. But by then I already wanted to develop something with Wagner Morden. And then Pictures of Ghosts put me in the right mood to write the script for the Secret Agent. So they're very different films, but they're very close in heart.

[A]

Was there ever a period where the Secret Agent was set at a different time or more of a modern story? Was it always set in this world?

[D]

No, it would always be in 1977, I think, because it's probably the first year I remember as a kid. And when you're a kid, I think you concentrate on things that as an adult you wouldn't really pay attention. For example, today I don't know much about. Much about cars, but as a 10 year old I. I could tell you, you know, about all the different models and makes and details. And so that came in handy for the, you know, for the production design and. And little details that would help make the film more lived in, let's say.

[A]

You mentioned Baccarat. First felt this watching that film as well. But watching this movie, one of the things that I love so much about it is this unusual blend of genre, almost exploitation convention. And in this film a lot of history, a lot of personal reflection and then this sense of absurdism that's like a very delicate balance between all these ingredients.

[D]

I think life in society can be absurdist, can feel like an exploitation movie sometimes. I mean, just look at the news and so many nasty incidents and so much violence in the world. So I think when you sit down to write a script, it can go to many places. And I guess I grew up watching all kinds of. Of genre cinema. I'm a huge fan of Carpenter, for.

[A]

Example, John Carpenter feel that in Baccarat deeply.

[D]

Oh yeah, you know, De Palma. I think Spielberg plays an important part in my years as a young cinephile also. But of course I think a lot about Brazilian cinema from the 1970s and Australian cinema, of course, something like Wake and Fright, I think was very much in the back of my mind when I was writing the opening 10 minute opening sequence and even shooting it Also. So, yeah, I really believe that. For example, I really love documentaries, but I think you can be very truthful doing fiction. And I even think that some fiction work can even be more truthful than some documentaries. Not all of them, but some of them.

[A]

What do you mean by that?

[D]

I mean that you can use artifice and you can use genre conventions, but still come up with an idea which is very honest and very truthful about life and about people and about the world. World. And this is something that I keep getting as a reaction to some of my films and to the Secret Agent. I mean, it's a narrative fiction and it's not based on real life incidents. But there is a logic to it which I think is very truthful about. About Brazil and about the world and about the passing of time.

[A]

It does feel at times like you're watching Wagner's character go through the experience and that it does at other times feel like you are watching the movie version of the real life Wagner's experience, which is an incredible blend. You mentioned the first 10 minutes of secret Agent. I wanted to ask you about that. Actually. You've got very skilled as a filmmaker at creating dread. That's hard to do. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about designing a sequence so that we are feeling exactly what you want us to feel.

[D]

I think your question. This is a very interesting question, but I really have to say that some of the things that we do as a filmmaker, some of the things that you do as a writer, they come from your own style. And for example, my biggest, most wonderful surprise about the Secret Agent is how funny it is or how humorous, can I say. But humor is not something that you go for. At least I don't. Of course, some people say my next film will be a comedy, but I always feel like saying, how do you know? You shouldn't really pre design comedy. Comedy is something that. It's like you go out with your friends to have lunch or to have dinner or to have a great conversation, and it turns out to be one of the funniest evenings in your life. But it was never planned. It's just the chemistry of what we all talked about and how we expressed ourselves that evening. And then it became a very kind of. Of a very funny evening. And I think dread is dread. Probably, you can probably tell from reading a script that there might be some dread involved. But I think dread also has to do with where the camera is and how the editing goes. And maybe the camera is a little bit to the right, a little Bit more than maybe it should be. And that that generates some tension. So it's kind of hard to answer the question. I think some of the situations are quite clear, but it's not really something that I'm planning. I'm pretty. Oh, tomorrow's sequence will be full of dread. It doesn't really work like that.

[A]

Well, some filmmakers do work schematically. Or at least they have an idea of the things that they want to accomplish. And I do think that the humor that you're talking about in the example of someone like De Palma. It comes out of that feeling of dread where it feels so silly to feel so tight about what might happen to a character.

[D]

Like in Carrie.

[A]

Exactly.

[D]

With the bucket full of blood.

[A]

And there's something kind of hilarious, even though that's such a painful sequence. But, yeah, the other thing, too, that is related to that is you mentioned moving the camera to the right. There's some formal moves in the movie. Split diopter shots, things like that, that feel like they are almost active comments on the era in which the film is taking place. In the films that were happening at that time. Did you make those choices for that reason?

[D]

That's another interesting observation. Because I have used split diopter shots in previous films. One of them is a contemporary story, Aquarius. So it's more about using tools and aspects of film language. Which for some reason, I wouldn't even be able to tell you why they've been left behind. I don't know why. It's like they've gone out of fashion. It's like a wonderful piece of clothing that you see. Why doesn't I want to wear this? Oh, but you're not supposed to. It's out of fashion.

[A]

But.

[D]

But I like it. But, yeah. With the Secret Agent taking place in 1977, of course I thought of blowout. I know it's 1981, but blowout and Close Encounters. Split diopter shots. And I love them. Well, if you use them in the right place, I think they can be interesting. They might bring you some interesting reaction to the image on the screen. You shouldn't use it all the time. You should save it for an interesting moment. But then it's out of intuition. I might have an idea of where I want to use it even as I write the script. Script. But some other idea might come up during the shoot. And I might say to the DOP at Gania, can we bring the split diopter thingy?

[A]

That's what I would have called it, too.

[D]

And let's See how it looks. Oh, it works. Yeah. That's good. Let's go for it.

[A]

That's interesting. I find that in a lot of those films that are using some of those moves that they're often done for dramatic storytelling purposes in significant tension filled sequences in your film, at least one of them is a father observing his son and seeing them both in frame, in focus.

[D]

It's tricky to almost psychoanalyze the film, but I'm happy to do it.

[A]

That's why you're here. Yes.

[D]

I think they've been apart for so long and even when they're in the same room, they are still distant or far away from each other in a way. I've never even verbalized this. This is the first time.

[A]

That is the emotional impact that it has, though.

[D]

Yeah. And then the other one, of course, is this man who's paid to kill someone. He gets increasingly closer to the person. So finally they end up in the same shot in a very unusual way, which is with the split diopter shot. And I think it's very uncomfortable to see them so close to each other, even if via an optical effect.

[A]

So you mentioned that you were a cinephile and a critic and a programmer. And I think you were in your 40s by the time you made your first feature, right?

[D]

Yeah, I was 42.

[A]

So I'm always interested in people who start a little bit later. And what impact do you think that would have had as opposed to if you had made a feature at 27?

[D]

Well, I come from a city which at the time when I was in university, there were no film schools, so I did journalism. I've always enjoyed writing. I've always been quite good at writing, even in school. Terrible in math, good in writing in Portuguese and English and these things. And then it happened, what I expected. Journalism brought me closer to an idea of cinema. And for many years I felt good being a film critic. And I was already developing my little videos and short films. I always felt that being a film critic is one way of making films. I don't want to sound like a crazy person, but it is, I think because you spend so much time not only watching, but thinking about films and trying to understand what films are trying to say and what do they mean? Why do you. Did he or she do this? And in a way. And you're part of the whole thing.

[A]

About cinema, you're just sucking up to me now. Yeah.

[D]

But of course, my short films, they got more and more attention. And in the 2000s. Yeah, that's when my short films became quite well known in Brazil. And then I began to travel abroad, also go to international film festivals and get a lot of prizes. And at the time, I was perfectly happy making short films.

[A]

There was no intention of trying to transition to features. When you were doing that, they weren't seen as an on ramp to something else.

[D]

I kept hearing that question all the time, when are you gonna make a real film? Oh, I'm happy making my short short films. And they were, you know, I got quite a lot of recognition for them. But then naturally, I wrote the first feature, Neighboring Sounds. I wrote it in 2008 and got the funding in Brazil. We have public funding. We got the funding in 2009. I shot it in 2010 and it did very well. Well, and then I have only done since then, only two other short films. Because once you get into the feature film train, it's hard to go back.

[A]

Why?

[D]

I think I finally understood why people kept asking, when are you going to do a real film? But I have to say that, that I look at my short films, I give them the same importance as I give Baccarat or the Secret Agents. But unfortunately, the world doesn't think like that. And of course, you get more recognition, more attention, you travel more, and, yeah, you're more seen, I think, making features.

[A]

We don't have an adequate distribution system for shorts. It's just not coherently communicated to the public.

[D]

Yeah, I agree. There are many attempts. There are nonprofits and even distribution companies. There is a short film world, and I've been part of it. The Clermont Ferrand International Short Film Festival is the can of shorts. It's. It's an amazing festival in France. Europe has amazing short film festivals. Brazil has many, many short film festivals. And as I said, you can be perfectly happy making short films, but if you make a film that gets noticed like Neighboring Sounds did, it's a different ball game.

[A]

How did Ewan Wagner cross paths?

[D]

We met in Cannes 20 years ago. I was a critic and I got to interview him. I liked him very much. Clearly a great actor and a really nice person. Nice guy.

[A]

He's been on the show. He's such a lovely person.

[D]

And he didn't have that kind of anxiety that some actors and actresses have, like, notice me and, you know, trying to be more than they are. And time passed. I went on to make my films. He saw Neighboring Sounds and that was the first time that he reached out and said, I really think we should work together someday. And it took like 10 years for this to happen.

[A]

And you wrote this for him?

[D]

I wrote it specifically for him. It's the first time that I write one film to develop with one actor.

[A]

What was that experience like? Was it significantly different from writing features before that? I think it is.

[D]

I think it is, because sometimes you even write. Sometimes you're writing a script and you haven't. It's not supposed to be with anyone in particular, but. But you end up. You can't stop thinking about someone, an actor or an actress, and then you write a role thinking that maybe he or she will be interested. And then sometimes you kind of grow out of the idea and so change my mind. But with Wagner, it would always be with him. And in Telluride, one of the interviews we did together, there was a funny question came out of nowhere. This guy asked, what was the plan B? And he looked at me like a jealous boyfriend. Girlfriend.

[A]

You didn't answer. There was no plan B?

[D]

No, there was no plan B. I'm telling the truth. I never thought about a plan B, in fact, and it's interesting because you. I kept. I know his work. I know the films he did and the television work he did, and even theater. And I had it mapped out in a way, and I wanted to maybe go somewhere else with him. And I'm very happy with the way it turned out. I think he's wonderful in the film.

[A]

He really is. He's an interesting figure because he's very classically handsome, and he has a lot of movie star quality, and he can carry a movie on his shoulders as well. But I do feel like you tapped into something mysterious about him that I don't know if I had quite seen before. I don't know. Did you develop it after you gave him the script? I mean, how do you figure out how to make that character work in that way?

[D]

Well, I think as a cinephile, I'm fascinated by the idea or the understanding we have of what a film star is. So what is a film star? The film star is someone who occupies the shot, inhabits the frame in a way that is absolutely effortless. And it's always interesting. It's always interesting to look at him or her, depending on who the star is. And it doesn't. I don't think it's really connected to good looks. I mean, good looks are also part of what it is, of course. And I always knew that Wagner would be interesting in the film. And because the film has so many situations where he stares, he thinks you can see the machines going on in inside his head. And he suggests emotion, anger. I think he has a lust for life in the film, the character. He has love. I think this film has a lot of love, affection, even if sometimes it gets brutal and nasty. But I think it has a lot of love. And Wagner is great at all of that. That showing affection and showing compassion and always being a good man, but not naive in any way. Just a good man who knows what's happening or is even trying to understand what's happening around him.

[A]

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that brutality too, because I find your films to be very sincere and deep, but also fairly practical about the heinous consequences of living under regimes that are dictatorial or under corporate power or any of the ideas that are in your feature films. How do you strike a balance between keeping the viewer involved in the story and getting it connected to the characters, but also making it clear what you mean, what you hope to communicate.

[D]

Well, I think if you're telling a story and you want to convey a true sense of life on earth.

[A]

I.

[D]

Think you should be loving when there is love. And you should be brutal if violence is involved. Sometimes violence is in the words. If someone is afraid, you should feel afraid for them. I think a lot about how to portray violence. Of course, it's an old theme in cinema, and it's ethical issue. It's a technical issue, aesthetic issue. I, of course, grew up, like so many of us, with wonderful teachers like Verhoeven, De Palma, again, Argento. And that gives me a map of where I can go. Cronenberg, of course, major reference. And I think that if a certain scene is about brutality, it should be brutal. I don't think I would make a film which is 100% violence. But when I say this, I think of a masterpiece like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which is insanely aggressive and brutal. But that's a different kind of film. But the films I make, I think there is always room for, you know, to giving the right treatment, what I consider the right treatment to each individual situation. If it's a sexual situation, I think it should be erotic, you know, in terms of human sexuality and a moment of affection and tenderness and sexuality between people. And it should be honest and frank. And the same thing about people talking or people waiting for a bus. It should be conveyed in a way that you get it. It's involving, engrossing.

[A]

I wanted to ask you about Udo Kir. So you've worked with him on two films. He just passed away. Film legend. He's just typically terribly entertaining. In your movie. And his character is fascinating and. And it does feel like a real excursion in the middle of the story. And I was hoping you could just talk about working with him. And that sequence in particular.

[D]

I love Udo Kir. Of course I was shocked and saddened two weeks ago when he passed, but at the same time I remembered so much. I mean, that was a man who had such a. A full life, not only in terms of the history of Cinema, the 200 plus films he made, and on all the stories that he would tell us with Fassbender, Barbara Sukhova and Lars von Trier and Gaz van Sant, which I think gave him one of his most beautiful roles in the wonderful film shot in Oregon with Keanu Reeves.

[A]

And on My Own Private Idaho.

[D]

My Own Private Idaho, of course, which I saw last year again. But I was fortunate enough to work with him in two films, Bakurao and Secret Agent. And it was just. I feel so lucky, all of us who got to know him. He was funny, he had great taste, he had this sarcastic humor, which was. I mean, we got along, we were good friends and we would exchange messages. And he came to see the Secret Agent in late September at the Beyond Festival at the Arrow. And we sat together and that's when he saw the film. And he was the same Woodo as always. And of course I'll miss him very much. I was already thinking about him for the next film.

[A]

That's terribly sad. That sequence in particular, I'd love to just hear a little bit about it. There's something really. It's like a microcosm of the bigger idea of the film about what we believe about people. And he plays this German man who has moved to Brazil after World War II. And there's this assumption that he's the next Nazi or a Nazi.

[D]

Well. But coming from the police chief who happens to be a fascist himself.

[A]

Yes, precisely. And he's in fact, not that he's quite the opposite. And I don't know, where did that sequence even come from? It really kind of even in the. I love this film, but it really stopped me in my tracks when I was watching it the first time.

[D]

The sequence probably comes from the fact that Recife has a strong Jewish community. And when I was a kid, my father would go to a tailor who was a Romanian tailor, I think in his 70s at the time. And I believe he was Jewish. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe he was Jewish. And Josefi also has the first synagogue of the Americas, so it has a Jewish Community. I have many friends, grew up with people from the community. And I thought that it's an interesting detour for Wagner's character, who is put in the position of having to bond with Euclid is the police chief who has this one track mind. He seems to think that Hans is a very interesting character because obviously he must have fought in the Second World War for the Germans. In other words, he's a former Nazi soldier, but in fact, he doesn't get it. The far right, I think, have usually have a problem with contextualization and history. And I think that's where the idea came from. And of course, I think it's a strong scene because it's very much about identity. And sometimes our identity is in our bodies. Could be a scar, could be a birth sign or maybe a tattoo. And he's treated like a circus attraction. And he also seems to be married to another man who tries to get him out of the situation. There's a lot going on in that sequence. And it was an amazing day when we shot the sequence in this incredible location in downtown Recife. And Udo was incredible. He was amazing. And he had some cards with the Portuguese words written phonetically. And, yeah, he's speaking Portuguese also in the sequence.

[A]

It's an amazing moment and a great film. So nice to hear you speak about it. I did want to ask you before we. This is a much bigger, I assume, exposure for you, the film playing at Cannes and then getting this big release in the United States. And you have entered the awards season apparatus in a real way here. As someone who's been observing films, thinking about films, being very emotionally close to the world of films for so long, what is it like to have gotten to this place with something that you have made?

[D]

To be honest, it feels good because I think that filmmaking is the whole nine yards. You think about a film like I'm thinking about a next film. The ideas are coming in. At some point you sit down and write. And then you get the funding, you prepare the shoot, you shoot the film, you start editing immediately. This film was edited in almost eight months. Editing morning and afternoon from Monday to Friday, then post production, then it's selected for Cannes. And then you begin to travel. And I think traveling is part of making films. I feel lucky to be able to meet so many people and get so many reactions and see so many other films and meet so many people that have been part of my life for so long. So, you know. Well, it's hard work now, I have to say, because the award Season.

[A]

They're hustling you around.

[D]

Yeah, But Neon is doing a really good job, I think. And there's a lot of traveling. Last week I did, I was in New York, and then I flew to London and then rome, Paris, Marrakesh, New York again, LA. Now, next is Mexico City, and then it just keeps going. But I'll be spending the last 15 days of December at home with my kids and watching films with Emily Lee, my wife. And then it starts again in January. But I'm in good spirits and I'm happy. It's what I asked Santa Claus way back then.

[A]

I wish you well. I really hope you succeed in all of those things you mentioned. You'll be going home to watch films soon. We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. Have you been watching things during your journeys?

[D]

I was very lucky that one of the few days I was home, they were screening in his Chantal Akaman's Gene Dielman with the restored of 4K. And I gave myself the the opportunity of spending 3 hours and 20 minutes in a 2pm screening with 19 other people in the screening room. It was a great moment.

[A]

Do you remember how much time had passed since the previous time you'd seen the movie?

[D]

I had never seen it in the cinema. I had only seen it on DVD maybe 15 years ago.

[A]

What struck you seeing it that way?

[D]

Just the texture of the image. We can see that. This particular restoration, I found it really interesting because not only can you see the grain, but the sound sounds like a old optical 35 millimeter mono soundtrack. You even get a little bit of the hiss, you know, that s. And it really felt like I had spent a full week with, you know, that woman in that apartment. It was a fascinating film going experience.

[A]

That's a great recommendation, Kleiber. Thanks for doing the show.

[D]

Thank you very much.

[A]

Thanks to Kleiber. Thanks to Joanna.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you to Amanda. Thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders, who's been first freaking grinding this month. What are we doing next week? Oh, yeah. Wake up, dead man.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I want to do a mailbag.

[B]

Oh, along with that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, great. You're throwing that in. That's very exciting.

[A]

I feel like there's a lot of shit going on right now, you know?

[B]

Bigpickmailbagmail.com.

[A]

Yeah, can we do that, Jack?

[D]

Sounds good.

[B]

Okay. Jack is making us smile. Like I have to read 3,000 deranged emails.

[A]

30 minutes of mailbag.

[C]

So let's AI all the time. That's. That's the subject.

[A]

If you want to talk about Disney's investment in Open AI, let's talk about it.

[B]

Let me give some guidance. Questions, not comments. Thank you so much. BigPick, mailbag, gmail dot com.

[A]

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