Is ‘Weapons’ a Classic? And an Oscar Contender? Plus: The Best Movies at TIFF!

Summary

The Big Picture – “Is ‘Weapons’ a Classic? And an Oscar Contender? Plus: The Best Movies at TIFF!”

Host: Sean Fennessey
Co-hosts: Amanda Dobbins, Chris Ryan
Special Guest: Adam Nayman
Date: September 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this packed episode, Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins are joined first by Adam Nayman to break down the big takeaways and top movies from the just-concluded Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF), including discussions on festival culture, standout films, controversies, and industry trends. Later, Chris Ryan joins for an in-depth review of Zach Cregger’s horror phenom “Weapons,” debating its status as a modern classic and its surprising Oscar buzz, followed by a quick hit on the franchise juggernaut “The Conjuring: Last Rites.” Throughout, the discussion blends cinephile insight with characteristic wit, probing both the movies’ artistic merits and their impact across film culture.

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Key Segments and Highlights

1. TIFF 2025: Festival Culture & Best Films

[01:35–46:42]

Life in the Criterion Van Line

• Adam Nayman recounts the phenomenon of the travelling Criterion Collection van at TIFF, where fans waited hours for a chance at discounted Blu-rays and collective cinephile bonding.
• Adam: “It’s not the discs, it’s the clout—or the self-deprecating version of clout… people seemed actually excited about this idea of community.” [04:52]
• Despite his skepticism about “consumer spectacle,” Adam was moved by the embodied nostalgia and sense of community: “Those four walls are pretty impressive… they activated all kinds of memories for me of purchasing… even if they’re discs. They’re embodied experiences.” [08:21]

TIFF Vibes & Recognition

• Adam endures the surreal experience of being recognized in the indie-movie line, describing it as “being on the other side of a parasocial relationship.” [02:23]
• The festival’s fragmented nature: “TIFF is very compartmentalized… we could do five different podcasts about what TIFF was like this year.” [05:36]

Best Films at TIFF

• Blue Heron (dir. Sophia Ranvari): Adam highlights this “great movie, already winning prizes… two for two with prizes for first feature.” [12:01]
• Nirvana the Band the Show: “Not a masterwork, but the most Toronto-centric movie possible… if I’d seen that at midnight with a Toronto audience, maybe that idea of masterwork would be in conversation.” [12:21]
• Wake Up Dead Man (Knives Out 3, dir. Rian Johnson): “Deals with something pretty personal to Rian Johnson, the idea of faith as practiced and faith as commodified… It’s a good mystery.” – Adam Nayman [14:09]
• The Smashing Machine (dir. Benny Safdie): Adam praises Dwayne Johnson’s “inside-out” performance but finds Emily Blunt’s character “nothing” in the script: “She’s playing nothing… she’s replicating something in the doc, which is... but why?” [21:08]
• Frankenstein (dir. Guillermo Del Toro): Adam critiques its lack of originality despite lush design: “Meticulous, but weirdly kind of unimaginative… I think Jacob Elordi’s good. I think he’s well cast.” [17:45]
• Hamnet (dir. Chloé Zhao): A hot Oscar contender, but Adam confesses, “I felt myself resisting this film… I didn’t feel anything real was happening.” [24:35]. Sean notes its divisiveness, and Amanda describes the ending as a rallying point: “It did eventually just kind of wrap its arms around me.” [26:49]
• The Testament of Ann Lee (dir. Mona Fastvold): Amanda loved the film’s odd, musical energy, and Adam highlights its daring, “so close to parody but pushes through... quite beguiling and strange.” [32:03]

Theater Kid Energy and Other Highlights

• Adam and Amanda revel in “theater kid energy” films, specifically Maddie’s Secret (dir. John Early) as a festival hit: “The only movie that not a single person I spoke to didn’t enjoy.” [36:16]

TIFF Awards & Controversies

• Discussion of the TIFF “International People’s Choice Award” and debates around programming decisions and festival leadership, especially regarding “The Road Between Us” documentary:
  • Adam: “This is going to be one of those chapters in TIFF’s history… thick on the ground.” [39:37]
  • Sean: “TIFF has fallen back a couple of steps to some of the other major festivals… it’s clear that’s happened in the last 10 years.” [40:30]
• On festival coping strategies: “You want to escape, but choosing art to not escape is one of the great things about art.” – Sean [43:24]

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2. ‘Weapons’: Review, Interpretation, and Oscar Buzz

[47:17–82:09]

Is ‘Weapons’ a Classic?

• Chris Ryan joins to declare: “Loved it. Seen it twice… the second time it went from four stars to five stars. You just kind of settle in and enjoy every little piece.” [47:54]
• Amanda, after initial hesitation, also praises: “I liked it very much. Strange and compulsively watchable.” [50:25]

What Is ‘Weapons’ About?

• Sean raises the controversy over whether “Weapons” is “about” anything. Chris responds: “It hadn’t occurred to me that it had to be about anything… I don’t necessarily think that’s a requirement of a movie to be both great and about something.” [53:06]
• The group discusses the pressures of “elevated horror” needing a singular thesis, contrasting it with Weapons’ ambiguous allegory.
• Chris underlines: “This movie is meant to be interpreted, but perhaps not solved.” [54:33]
• Amanda observes, “I wasn’t looking for a lesson, but... at some point, the lack of an answer is just part of why horror isn’t always my go-to.” [60:43]

Themes and Interpretations

• Grief, trauma, generational divides, and substance abuse all surface in the conversation, with Sean arguing: “It was the confusion and the depression that engulfs people when you lose someone like that—that is really the driving force.” [57:15]
• On the “witch” figure: “Barbarian weirdly has a lot of empathy for its monster… This is different. In this movie, the monster’s the monster.” – Sean [56:30]
• Chris postulates potential allegories about generational vampirism: “Gladys represents an older generation that is vampiring younger generations… Siphoning their life force… to stay in power.” [67:15]

Horror Structure & Effectiveness

• Amanda notes the first hour’s suspense—“I had to keep watching. I did not look at my phone… You could not.” [57:06]—and the second half’s supernatural reveals.
• The team hypes Amy Madigan’s performance as Aunt Gladys as sensational and Oscar-worthy: “A crazy good horror movie villain performance… this is going to end up being one of the signature roles for now.” – Sean [74:44]
• On the film’s awards chances, Amanda is cautiously optimistic but realistic: “It’s very well made… but something like this would have to have some up-top support.” [77:27] Sean: “I do think Amy Madigan has a good chance. Best picture? I don’t really see it, but I hope it happens.” [78:55]

Future of Horror, Video Game IPs & More

• Zach Cregger’s next project—a Resident Evil movie—is discussed, with the hosts debating the strengths and weirdness of auteurs taking the reins on franchise blockbusters: “If we have to make $80 million video game adaptations, this is the way… Turn your IP over to someone who has a vision.” – Sean [80:22]

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3. Quick Take: The Conjuring: Last Rites

[82:09–96:33]

• “The Conjuring: Last Rites” is presented as both the latest and possibly final entry in the long-running franchise (though the hosts are skeptical).
• The crowd rips through the franchise’s convoluted structure, “it’s the ninth (or tenth) Conjuring movie,” and jokes about haunted objects and farmhouse mirrors.
• Chris: “This feels like a particularly pious film… kinda trad-wifey.” [85:50]
• Sean: “Not very good… But it is incredibly successful—it opened to $80 million over the weekend, third highest horror opening of all time.” [88:43]
• Ongoing affection for Patrick Wilson as the “box office king” and “scream king.” [95:11]
• Amanda, on horror’s current market position: “Kids movies… then horror,” as the only surefire box office draws [96:22]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Adam: “It’s not the discs, it’s the clout—or the self-deprecating version of clout… it was really nice… people seemed actually excited about this idea of community.” [04:52]
• Chris: “Loved it. Seen it twice… the second time… it went from four stars to five stars.” [47:54]
• Amanda: “I didn’t feel anything real was happening [in Hamnet]… So then grief and trauma did little for me.” [24:35]
• Sean: “You want to escape, but choosing art to not escape is one of the great things about art.” [43:24]
• Chris: “This movie is meant to be interpreted, but perhaps not solved.” [54:33]
• Amanda: “I wasn’t suddenly like, ‘So Zack Cregger is saying all women over 40 are bad’… I was just kind of… I noticed that, but that’s as far as it went.” [55:54]
• Sean: “This is a supernatural horror movie… I didn’t feel like I needed to kind of unpack those additional details that were otherwise unexplained.” [63:36]
• Chris: “The answer not being something hard-coded into what it means seems to be what’s bothering some people… whereas for me, it did what a lot of great horror movies do.” [62:10]
• Adam: “Those four walls are pretty impressive… Even with all of my professional reasons to be skeptical… those are embodied experiences, even if they're discs.” [08:21]

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Tone & Style

Throughout, the tone is conversational, funny, and deeply informed—self-aware cinephilia meshed with light sarcasm and occasional inside jokes about movie culture and the podcast itself. Adam’s dry wit, Sean's earnest curiosity, Amanda’s pragmatic insight, and Chris’s genre enthusiasm intermingle seamlessly.

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Final Takeaways

• TIFF 2025’s scene is one of both discord and cinephile solidarity, with spirited discussions around both movies and the infrastructure/culture surrounding them.
• Weapons is firmly established as a horror classic in the eyes of the hosts, with a mix of populist appeal, artistic ambiguity, and a breakout villain performance by Amy Madigan—worthy of Oscar recognition.
• Conjuring: Last Rites is dismissed as formulaic but proof that horror, more than any other genre, is box office gold in the current market.
• The episode underscores the messiness and beauty of movies that defy easy interpretation, and the power of film communities to sustain passion even amidst controversy or disappointment.

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For a full deep dive into each segment, listen from:

• [01:35] TIFF and Criterion Line
• [13:37] Major TIFF movies
• [47:17] ‘Weapons’ review and meaning
• [82:09] Conjuring: Last Rites
• [96:09] Closing genre/box office reflections

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Note: This summary skips all advertisements, intros, and non-content sections per instructions.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is presented by State Farm. Life's full of decisions, big and small, and sometimes you make movie ones you can really stand behind. For example, I was wise enough to stick around through the mid credits during Ryan Coogler's Sinners. And unlike my co host Amanda, I got to see a very special sequence with a great buddy guy, among other things. State Farm gets it. Making confident choices can make all the difference. That's why with the State Farm personal price plan, you can choose the right amount of coverage to help create an affordable price for you. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit Card. This is an ad for the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it passed a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mom or grabbing a coffee with your dog, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me. The Active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply. I'm Sean Fennese.

[B]

I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is the.

[A]

Big Picture 8 conversation show about weapons and Toronto. Way back in the halcyon days of early August, I recorded a solo episode covering one of the year's biggest and most exciting new movies, Weapons by myself. Well, Ciara and Amanda have seen it now they're here to talk about it today as well as yet another mega horror hit. The conjuring conclusion, Last rites. But first we have to talk about the Toronto International Film Festival, which has just concluded. Which means our Mean Pod Guy correspondent Adam Naiman is here. Adam, hello.

[C]

Hey, guys. How you doing?

[A]

That doesn't seem very mean. You seem very. You seem very gentle, pleasant. Did you just see a good movie? What happened?

[C]

Yeah, I saw an embargoed film. It was good. Okay, the big question on the street in Toronto, I was asked this five separate times is what is Sean Fennesee really like?

[A]

Oh, no.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Because I quite mortifyingly kept getting embarrassed recognized from the podcast and then everyone's like, oh, you're that. You're Adam for the podcast. Like, yes, this was especially true of the Criterion Line. This is the target audience. So people are like, what is Sean Fennesee like? They also said, what's Amanda like? Amanda's a very nice. She's great. They're like, what is Sean like? They're like, what does this exterior disguise?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I said, what you see is what you get. That became my line.

[A]

An aging, insecure, festering boil on the pox of cinema culture, right?

[C]

No, no, no. Only a couple people were like that. Most people were like, he's great. You know, and that weird feeling of being on the other side of a parasocial relationship. Or like, a parasocial relationship on top of one. Because, like I said, this was the line for the Criterion van, which was very much the center of attention on what's called Festival Street. You know, in Toronto, we have streets. We drive on the same side that you guys do in America, and.

[A]

Sounds like a nice place to live.

[C]

It's a very nice place to live. Sort of the van was just parked there. And, you know, I didn't go to it in the New York Film Festival because I live in Toronto, but it was sort of the static center of attention and all the festival traffic kind of circled around it. And it was very interesting to work the line. Right. I mean, I got recognized because in Toronto, I guess, you know, I host a lot of events, or people sort of know that I do film stuff. So a lot of people getting yelling out. They're like, big picture, whatever else. What are you gonna get from the van? But I asked people why they were waiting in line, not as a skeptical question, but I'm like, this is exciting. And I got such a beautiful range of responses.

[A]

Well, what are some. You know, why the Criterion Collection van has obviously become a thing. We've had it twice here in Los Angeles. Outside of Idiots in the Arrow, we've had it at the New York Film Festival. I think they went to Chicago at a certain point, too, earlier this. They're traveling the world, and it is a frenzy. And on its face, you can say this is a lot of time to spend to wait in line for a solid but modest discount on Blu Rays and a photograph. And yet, when I was there, I definitely felt a little tingle of excitement. And Chris and I had a lot of fun going inside the van. And you are a little bit more skeptical about our mass consumer culture around cinema. What were you hearing and what do you make of it?

[C]

Well, there was one guy who was very nice who sort of. I said, so, what is this? He's like, well, you Know, we're crackheads and this is a line for crack, you know.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And he said, and when I asked him to sort of, you know, expand or what I got was, I mean, it's not the discs, you know, it's the clout or the perceived cloud or the self deprecating version of clout. Because of course, you know, you're not being invited in as a celebrity or an actual filmmaker. You're paying your dues in terms of time and then paying your money in terms of, you know, paying at a discount. But people seemed very excited. I saw lots of my students from U of T in Line, so people who I, people who I recognize from, you know, various TIFF cinema, tech screenings and rep culture in line skewed, very young and, you know, quite enthusiastic. And I thought that as a, not as a festival within the festival, but TIFF is very compartmentalized, you know, and we could do like five different podcasts about what TIFF was like this year because if you paid attention to certain stuff, it was the most rancid festival vibes in history. And if you didn't pay attention to other things, then less so. But that just sort of seemed to be a space where people were. I mean, it sounds so cheesy, but people seemed actually excited about this idea of community. And the skepticism kind of evaporates. I think it should still be there at the end of the day, or at least it deserves to be talked about. But yeah, people were giving up an entire potential day of film watching for what's kind of like just cheek to jowl conversation and a bunch of different people use that word. And you want to, maybe not want to scoff at it, but like we're wired to scoff at that idea of community. And I thought it was really nice. And I thought that seeing people go in and out of the van, you know, clutching their, their, their disc was very nice. I, I got to go in just ahead of the, the great filmmaker, you know, Christian Petzold.

[A]

Oh yeah, one of your guys.

[C]

Yeah, certainly one of my guys.

[A]

He started his last feature, A Fire.

[C]

A fire, yes. I've been, I've been, I've had to deal with that, particularly with my wife Tanya, when we watched a fire, which is what a guy who goes to the cottage and then doesn't want to do anything sitting on his laptop. She's like, oh look, they made a movie about you and it looks a lot like you. And I'm like, this is great. I'm so, you know, glad we're together forever. But no, I mean, you know, you see Christian, I mean, if anything, I'm surprised more filmmakers on the ground didn't go in. I don't have a record of like, who Truck time, but you have everybody there, you know, Although in a way, celebrities going in was a bit against the on the ground spirit of the thing. Because the whole point is this is the truck that you don't have to be famous to go in. But anyway, I mean, TIFF shuts down this big drag downtown. You can't shut New York down the way you can even parts of Toronto. And I will say that for the three or four days that it was open, literally, you could not navigate the festival without noticing it. So great branding and great positioning and, you know, for all the little jokes or criticisms I might have if tiff, it's such a cinephile city, so it fit, you know, it was fascinating thing to watch.

[A]

It's so nice to hear your heart melted by the communal experience of buying plastic. It really makes me feel wonderful to hear you say that.

[C]

Well, actually, I haven't posted my video for reasons, but all three movies I got were movies that I already own and have a little personal history with, and I instantly gave them away.

[A]

I thought a good, even a good.

[C]

Bit would be to go up and down the line giving away discs might have made them. Or I was also going to just like find some, some bad movies and hide them in the closet. Okay, yeah, you know, some, you know, standard, standard deaf standard def DVDs. Favorite directors.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[C]

But, but, but you know what, people do bits when they're in there. I have a friend, another local critic, former TIFF programmer. He brought, I think I saw on Instagram, his Close Encounters laserdisc in there to demonstrate, you know, that there's a long history to this company that sort of predates the, you know, predates the closet. But look, you know, I'm not really mean anyway, but I will say you talk about the heart being melted part, being in there. Even with all of my professional reasons to be skeptical and projects I'm working on and whatever else, those four walls are pretty impressive. And they activated all kinds of memories for me of purchasing because this isn't my first rodeo. You know, literally I was looking around and I was like, this is the disc my wife bought for me before we started dating, or this is the movie I paid for with babysitting money. They're embodied experiences, even if they're discs. And that's why I tried not to roll my Eyes when people showed up to wait for this thing at like 8 in the morning.

[A]

When are we going to get you inside? That's.

[D]

I, I was out of town for the LA one. I also, you know, I, I don't collect DVDs or Blu Rays or discs. Maybe I like Adam's terminology. Maybe I'll start using that. It's acceptable for you.

[A]

Sure. Yes. Do whatever you like, live freely. That's the fun part of collecting.

[D]

When I say DVDs, I get in trouble because that's not appropriate.

[A]

Well, it's not the correct terminology.

[D]

Yeah, until you give me an Italian ready to wear, you know, that was a dvd. And then I, I think Adam's. I think it would be fun to speak to the other people in the line. Like that vibe seems right. But as a. I'm not a line waiter generally, I'm not like a hugely patient person. You know, I'm not there for the drops.

[A]

I see.

[D]

Do you know what I'm saying?

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So that would be tough for me.

[A]

Better than waiting in a line.

[D]

I'm better than. I know my personal limits, which are standing in a line for seven hours or whatever. Were people camping out at em, like where they're tents. What was the vibe?

[C]

I mean, I don't think that there were tents, but on the morning where I, where I got up there, I think at 9:30 in the morning, they said that their line was full till 5:30, meaning by 9:30 they had 8 hours worth of slots filled for the day. Because to be fair, everybody gets their time, right? Yeah, everybody kind of gets to go in there and they, you know, they pick discs and take a, and take a photograph. I mean, you know, it's, it's like a roller coaster line economy where it's a long wait for a short time, but it is time.

[D]

I'm not dissing the line or that everyone gets their time. It's just like me showing up at 9. I personally can't wait till 5:30, you know.

[C]

Well, but this is the other thing is at tiff, there's supposedly so many great movies to see, you're basically blocking off a day where you can't engage with all of these masterworks of cinema, you know.

[D]

Yeah, what a segue.

[C]

You might have to give them a miss because there's no chance that movies play at Tiff will ever open theatrically in a week.

[A]

So I'm glad you frame it that way. Were there any masterworks of cinema at TIFF this year based on what you saw?

[C]

I Watched on back to back days. Barton Fink and Scott Pilgrim in my classes. Those are both five star films. God, I love Scott Pilgrim versus the World. What a great friggin great friggin movie that is.

[A]

Toronto movie.

[C]

Yeah, we're their masterworks of cinema. As I put in my ringer dispatch, I had to tread a little lightly because a couple of the very best films I saw are the most interesting ones are not just by Toronto, Torontonian filmmakers, but friends, you know, and there is sort of this question of objectivity and you know, how do you be a critic when people, you know, I will say that currently Sophia Ronvari's Blue Heron is sitting at first on Metacritic for the fall above Hamnet, you know.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And Sophie's. Sophie's a good friend, so hopefully there's not grains of salt when I say that's a great movie. I think it's gonna premiere in Chicago soon. For its American premiere, she's two for two with prizes. She just won an award in Locarno and then also in Tiff. It's pretty impressive. Two festivals, two big prizes for first feature.

[A]

Yeah, I'm very excited about that film.

[C]

And you know, and then Nirvana, the band, the Show. I don't know if it's a masterwork of cinema, but as a movie that gets the equivalent of like the city throwing its panties on stage, that's this movie, you know, because it's the most Toronto centric movie possible and they're local heroes and it's premiering like in the shadow of the CN Tower, which they breached in order to film the opening stunt sequence of this movie. I think if I'd seen that movie at midnight with a Toronto audience, then maybe that idea of masterwork of cinema would be in conversation. I mean, for me, there were a lot of really great filmmakers here who I'm always happy to spend time with. And I will spend time with the movies in my head, like Petzold and Claire Denis, like, whether this is their best work or not, I'm delighted to have seen it. And then there was just also an awful lot of like awards season stuff that as I wrote about in the Dispatch, I kind of had mixed feelings about. There's one movie that I thought was great, but I kind of want to send it celebratorily for the end.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And maybe you can. Maybe you can go through the usual suspects first because I know you have a list you want to ask about. And now I'm going to get mean, you know.

[A]

Well, I mean, there's A couple of films that either Amanda or I have seen at the previous fall festival. And then there's a couple that premiered. I don't know. Was there any. I guess you saw Knives out, the new Knives out film? I did Wake Up Dead man, and it seemed like you liked it.

[C]

I did, seemed. Yeah. No, I did. I mean.

[A]

Well, you've been a bit. You've been a bit skeptical of the Knives out films.

[C]

Well, there's points of skepticism. I mean, I thought the second one buckled under the contradiction of being about disrupting the system while being made as part of a gigantic Netflix deal. Like, there's a sort of cognitive dissonance there. But this one deals with something that seems pretty personal to Rian Johnson, which is this idea of faith. You know, faith as practiced, faith as commodified. It's a good mystery. I thought the second one was, like, a very cheerful sort of cheat.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

The mystery didn't really appeal to me. This is like an honest to God, you know, crime thriller. It cites and. And, you know, annotates the crime thrillers that it's based on. You know, the. The locker room mysteries, the hollow body problem that he's basing it on. And it also does something that everyone's commented on. So this isn't like great critical acumen to say this, but, like, it sidelines Daniel Craig for a long time, and instead you have Josh o', Connor, who I hear people are very into.

[A]

It's so funny to watch you get on the train now. Yeah, we've been here for years.

[D]

No, no, no.

[C]

I mean. And I haven't seen Kelly's movie at the Mastermind show here. He's great in too.

[A]

Fantastic. You're going to love it.

[D]

I'm so excited.

[C]

I haven't seen Shocking.

[A]

You're going to love it, Adam.

[C]

Kelly Reichardt's movie is good. He's fantastic in this movie. In Knives Out, I think he's the only one of the three after Ana de Armas and Janelle Monae, even compared to them, where I'm like, you can hinge this movie on this guy. It's his movie.

[D]

Oh, that's exciting.

[C]

He's. He's terrific.

[A]

That's good news for us. We haven't not been hyping up Wake Up Dead man too much, but I.

[D]

Think that glass onion we were a little mixed with deflated us a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

That's a good one. So two movies that have gotten, I would say, what ultimately emerged as mixed positive reactions, but maybe More on the mixed side have been the Smashing Machine.

[C]

And Frankenstein, which I saw back to back.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I waited in a long line for a public screening of Frankenstein, emerged, went back into the same line for a long. A long line for public screening of Smashing Machine, and then went home. So they are very much joined in my memory.

[A]

Which one do you want to talk about first? Because with Smashing Machine, I think I liked that a little bit more than Amanda did. I have a little bit more grounding in the storytelling and in the rock with Frankenstein, I think we both were let down by that movie. However, then the reception out of Toronto, where del Toro won second prize for the audience award, and the warmth that is felt for him in the city, I think kind of lifted the spirits of a movie that didn't really play super well at Venice or Telluride. So what do you want to talk about first?

[C]

Well, he's an honorary Torontonian del Toro. You know, he was given the key to the city this summer. That's not a figure of speech. I mean, literally the key to the city. He's driven economy, you know, filmmaking economy towards Toronto for a long time. Whether his movies are set here or not, you know, in the Shape of Water, there's a big scene set at the Lakeview Diner where, you know, we've all been there, you know, late night or whatever else. So I feel like the home turf advantage for him is real. And I also think the rhetoric around the movie is hard to resist, which is him saying he's wanted to make Frankenstein for a long time. You know, this is what he said almost every time he's asked, I want to make this movie for a long time. To me, that's the problem with the film is he's always wanted to make Frankenstein, and he kind of has so many times that by the time he gets right down to it, it's pretty literal, and I found it pretty frictionless. And there's something about the. The inverse tension between how beautiful the production design is, but how unoriginal the images feel to me. You know, it's like, meticulous, but, like, weirdly kind of unimaginative. And I think all this cg, especially as it blends into things like the production design and the monster design, makes it feel kind of weightless. I mean, I'm on the record as not being a massive fan of this filmmaker who is very easy to be a fan of, so I'm trying to not be too in the other direction, being like, I don't like his movie, so I'M predisposed against this one. I mean, that's the flip side of a tourism, right? There's people who speak to you and you're excited, and there's people who you don't like, and you're almost skeptical in advance. I think Jacob Elordi's good. I think he's well cast.

[A]

We agreed on that as well. His performance is great.

[C]

His performance is great, but there is something about it that is just stillborn to me. It's a frictionless movie. I don't know if you guys were quite as down on it as that, but I just, I wasn't feeling it, and I was feeling it at great length.

[A]

You know, I'm probably the biggest del Toro fan out of the three of us, but I thought that that was incisive, what you said, which is that he's just explored this particular anxiety of, like, what makes a man versus a monster, and in many other films. And it's fantastic that he was so inspired by the Shelley novel, but it just felt like he was kind of iterating and iterating on a stage that maybe he was not suited to somehow. Which seems odd because it is the movie he's been wanting to make forever. But, like, he has used CGI wonderfully in movies before. Plim looks phenomenal. It's, it's, it's, it's effects work is fantastic in this movie. It is. I found it to be off putting and quite strange.

[D]

I, I mean, I was stuck on it in the movie and couldn't really get past the way that it looked and the, the, the conflict between the very meticulous, quote unquote, handmade, I mean, actually handmade production design and then all the stuff that is clearly from a computer. And I just like, what are we doing?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that stuff wasn't, wasn't great. I think that it. But it did seem like it. The movie, you know, for the next three months, got back on track, so to speak, at the festival, which is interesting. Like, when you look at, when you dissect what the effect is of a movie playing multiple festivals over multiple periods of time, sometimes it can be a disaster and a movie can be DOA out of its premiere, and sometimes it can kind of shift the narrative. The Smashing Machine is kind of an inversion of that right now, where it feels like it got, I would say, mild, warm reception upon its premiere at Venice. And then Benny Safdie won the Silver lion for directing after Venice. But then I got the sense that not as many people were as High on it in Toronto. You know, what was your make? What did you make of that movie?

[C]

I mean, I would agree in that the general attitude among people I talked to was kind of mixed, not negative and certainly not like, you know, just like. No, it's not like people just like, we are not having this, but it's a movie that. And it's impossible to not talk about the Safdie's work together. And there's sort of this built in narrative of the Reach making their solo feature debut. And we're going to be recirculating this endlessly, especially once people get a look at Marty Supreme. So let's just try and stay away from that. I think in a weird way, the documentary qualities of the film, which is stuff that the Safdies are very good at. I love their non fiction films or their hybrid fiction films. I love Lenny Cook, which I think this is the closest of anything in their filmography to. In a way, the documentary makes it redundant because there's already a documentary about this. So the replication of like scenes and mannerisms and speech patterns and even like, you know, images from the documentary, it does beg the question of why other than that you can do it. What I would say is I think Dwayne Johnson in this movie is better than like Oscar hype criticism. I think it's a real performance from the inside out. But the reality of his performance exposes how phony I found Blunt's performance. Not because she's not a good actress. She's a terrific actress, but she's playing nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Again, I was so angry, you know, like, oh, the difficult wife. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, I mean she's replicating something in the doc, which is. But, but why, I guess is the question.

[C]

Replicating something in the doc. But way. And to me it's very obviously a displaced buddy movie because the real relationship is the one in the film between Mark Kerr and the other guy. His, his, his fellow fighter.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Who never quite line up, you know, and it becomes very much about these two fighters who we keep thinking are going to meet and the friendship is going to be threatened. I mean, I spoil the film, but then how do you spoil reality?

[A]

If this were a more fictionalized version of that story, that's what would have happened. They would have ultimately met in some magical showdown. But that isn't the kind of movie that Benny wanted to make. It's a really interesting movie. I'm with you completely on the rock. I mean, it is, it is the kind of thing I've been waiting for him to do for a really long time. And he has been narrativizing that, and he's trying to win an Academy Award by using that narrative. But it was evident 20, 30 years ago that he had a very particular performance style and charisma that could allow him to transform, despite having that body and that presence. And he does in the movie.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I'm less moved than I would want to be by his claims that he wants to take acting seriously, because a lot of the. Not just the specific movies, like the kinds of movies that he's pushed for in some of his other capacities, they're just like a blight.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, it's not just that they're a bad movie, they're just like a cultural blight that he's been a driving engine of. So this whole, like, come to the light moment where now it's like, oh, you know, I've. I've been prevented from exercising my craft because I love some of his very early performances and Southland Tales and Pain and Gain. So I don't believe he doesn't know the difference between a real movie and a novel.

[A]

That's always been. My issue is I know he knows what's good because he took some chances on interesting filmmakers, because he has taste, and that's what's been so frustrating about him for the last 12 years.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But, you know, credit where it's due, I don't know how my friend knows this. I'm not going to say who it was or I didn't press them, but one of my friends said they've never seen a better performance of someone trying to act like they are not on opioids. They're like the scenes where he's just clearly trying to be like nothing's going on and just sitting and staring there under. That's the most authentic version of that I've ever seen. And I said, good tip, and moved.

[A]

On Hamnet, So we have to. Did you see it?

[C]

I did.

[A]

Okay, so we have to talk about it.

[D]

I haven't seen it yet, so don't.

[A]

Spoil anything for Amanda, even though it's a novel that she's read.

[C]

Amanda, have you read the book?

[D]

I have. I read it before I had children, so I felt like that was a positive decision for me.

[A]

I think you're seeing it very soon.

[C]

Right?

[D]

Yeah. I gotta email them about that. But anyway.

[A]

It'S the hot movie right now. It won the audience award at Toronto, which after the Brief Life of Chuck intermission, in terms of awards, Prognostication. I think it's pretty safe to say Hamnet is one of the two or three hottest titles in the best picture race right now. Chloe Zhao adapting. Is it Maggie o' Farrell's novel?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Um, and I saw it at Telluride, or I saw it before Telluride, actually. And I would say it worked on me, but I wasn't over the moon for it. I liked it quite a bit. I particularly liked Jesse Buckley in the film. And it feels like it exists for that performance in a lot of ways.

[C]

Very much so.

[A]

What did you think?

[C]

I'm going to. I'm writing at length on this movie for a different publication. I'm happy I'm going to get to write about it in print. Not that writing on the Internet doesn't matter. Of course it does. But this is going to be a movie that I'll be very interested to read. What happens outside of festival bubble. I tweeted the other day something mean, which is that it deserves the People's Choice Award at TIFF as much as Three Billboards and Green Book and jojo Rabbit and all these other movies that live in our cultural memory as great masterpieces. It's pretty much right with them for me. But I was also interested in questions of going with and resisting a film. Because I'm being very honest. I felt myself resisting this film. And you have to ask yourself, is this something in you and your attitude about a director, you know, material, or is it sort of something in the movie? Since becoming a parent, I have become a giant. And this is eight years now. Leah's almost nine. I become a giant pushover for anything pertaining to kids, kids in peril, you know, whatever else I felt. Not a thing during this movie, which is not sociopathy, I hope it's recognizing the difference for me between my experience of parenting before a tragedy, let's say, and the way this movie shows family life before the hammer of history comes down on these characters, I didn't feel that they. Even if. Even though it's a period piece and it's stylized and it's Shakespeare's life, like we know all this, I didn't feel anything real was happening. So then the grief of it and the trauma and the power of it did very little for me. And then the movie rallies because Hamlet's a pretty good play. So if you give yourself over to Hamlet at the end, you're gonna get some kind of effect out of that. And if it sounds like I'm choosing my words carefully, it's cause on some level, I suspect the movie is much worse than I am describing it as. I'm just trying to give it some benefit of the doubt and figure out what my issue is.

[A]

Yeah, it's a really interesting reaction that you've had, and you are not the first person to share this with me. I was texting with a relatively prominent person yesterday. Not to sound like a complete D bag, but what this person said to me was very funny, which is that all of his filmmaker friends hate this movie and all of his critic friends love it.

[C]

Love it.

[A]

And I am curious to see how that shakes out. That actually is quite relevant to the Academy Awards race. But it's gotten relatively rapturous reviews. But at Telluride, there were probably five or six people that I spoke to who really had the same reaction that you did, which is like, this did not work on me, and I was, in fact, allergic to what it was trying to accomplish. But the way you described the ending for me, that did happen to me. It rallied hard for me, and I found the first hour of the movie kind of a slog. And then it did eventually just kind of wrap its arms around me, and I gave myself over to it. So I'm very curious to hear what you think. And I don't think it's going to be divisive, per se, but there will be a vocal minority that does not believe in this. And it'll be interesting to see as we talk about it for the next six months, how that plays out well.

[C]

And again, we narrativize everything at film festivals. There was this idea with this movie in Telluride and being here, it was presented with such a flourish by the festival, it's put in the biggest possible theater and the grandest possible introduction. And Chloe Zhao did the same breathing exercise thing and intellura that you hear that she did. Intelli. People are mad at people for not enjoying that. You know, some of us have a schedule is delaying the movie. I couldn't get to something else. But I was thinking that this is a movie about, like, going off to you.

[B]

I love.

[D]

I don't want to breathe with other people. You know, that's me time.

[A]

We're all breathing with each other every day on this earth.

[C]

But it's a movie about basically telling your partner, I can't come home because I have to write.

[A]

That's more relatable than that.

[C]

Well, in that sense, it was the ultimate movie of tiff for me because at this point, I've gotten not being a deadbeat down To a science. But having a festival on home turf exerts certain pressures. You get a text from home and it's like, I can't sit through this movie because I might have to pick somebody up. So in that sense, I was watching Hamnet, I was like, he's just like me, except he's going to try and write Hamlet or whatever. And I'm texting about, I'm tweeting about Hamnet. But I will say this about Buckley. She is an actress who in films prior to this, even movies I haven't totally liked, I've never really felt hit a false note. Like I'm very in the tank for this actress.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then in this movie, which almost seems, if not designed to win her an award, it. It probably will. Although I want to talk about another lead performance in the festival I like more. And I wasn't feeling her. I know that's not sophisticated criticism, but I just, I just was not.

[A]

Damn. That's all I say to that. Damn. Damn.

[D]

Are you talking about Testament of Ann Lee?

[C]

I am.

[D]

Okay. I'd like to talk about it. I saw it at Venice.

[A]

So.

[C]

So what do you make of this movie?

[A]

Let's try to operate the same way we operated with him.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

You can give the broad outlines detail wise.

[D]

Sure.

[A]

And share your feelings because this is now. This is essentially this and Marty supreme are now kind of 1 and 2 at the top of my list for the rest of the year. For what I want to see the test. Sean.

[C]

Oh, Sean hasn't seen this. Fun. Good. Yay.

[D]

So the Testament of Ann Lee is the new film directed by Mon Fastfold and co written by Fastfold and Brady Courbet. They have the. The Brutalist fame stars Amanda Seifried and is about the founding of the Shaker religious movement in the late 1700s. So I won't spoil anything more except to say that I went in having a. I, I admire the filmmakers. I don't always jibe with what they are going for. Which you know, as Adam, you were saying earlier that is that a me problem is that if you know an. It's an a film problem, it's good to be aware of these things. And I, it, it does feature singing which I didn't know going in and can be a real hit and miss with me personally. You know, people just start singing and I, I can get quite alarmed. I was really taken with it. I thought it was really strange and interesting and working with a lot of the same ideas as the Brutalist. But maybe in ways that to me are more fully realized or at least contained within the. They're achieved within the movie more wholly. I also really liked the amazing performance. I will say I. I think I saw the first press screening at Venice and I saw more Italian people walking out of this movie than anyone else. So another one that is. Which. That. That's a problem with old Italian people. But maybe a movie that will be kind of black licorice for some people. But I. I really liked it.

[C]

I just. I'm a big fan. Especially and festival season when there's a budget of movies that are threatening to fall on their face at any time like that are really kind of taking a risk. And this is like an episode of Drunk History with, you know, oh Brother, Where Art Thou? Diegetic songs. And it's. It's so close to either parody or self parody. I have this thing where it's often a compliment for me if a movie feels like it almost could be directed by David Wayne, you know.

[D]

Right.

[C]

This movie has that quality, but it pushes through the other side of it and becomes to me quite beguiling and strange. And I actually felt some of the emotions dealing with parenthood and loss more acutely in this movie passing than I did in Hamnet, which is a somewhat similar movie to. In the sense of how is someone channeling their trauma in this case, not necessarily into artwork, but into this kind of abstinence. First religious movement where. And this is supposedly. I mean, it's not an authentic movie. It's not about verisimilitude. It is a, you know, a Brother Where Art Thou style folk musical. But this idea that this whole movement was founded out of just absolute grief over the loss of these children where it's like, you know, the only way to be close to God is to take sex out of the equation because the potential attendant lost too much.

[D]

And one other thing that I think is handled better in this. But we won't spoil it.

[C]

No, we won't spoil it. And I agree with you. It is handled better in this. I know Sean and I had our long chat about what works and what doesn't about the brutalist. And I still stand by that. This movie doesn't improve or disprove the brutalist Free. But I kind of like her half of the filmmaking family. I think the. Just by virtue of not being so macho, the cult of personality stuff in this is more interesting. Like, you know, it is a movie about cults of personality. They're obsessed with this. Clearly, collectively, I found this to be Pretty, for lack of a better word. It's very fun.

[D]

It is. Which is weird to say about.

[C]

Weird to say.

[D]

I mean, if this is a movie about the founding of a religious movement in the late 1700s, like, you know, line everybody up, I'm sure, like, what a bar. But it is, it is fun.

[A]

Notably still does not have distribution, which I'm quite fascinated by. It's getting, it's getting late in the day if it's going to be a film that comes out in 2025.

[C]

I know theater kid energy for the win with this.

[D]

It's true. And I normally am so allergic to that. And it really did win me over.

[C]

Yeah. And Seyfried is. I mean, she's just. I mean, what an actress generally, you know, I think she's great in everything and I thought she was wonderful in this.

[A]

Is there anything else you want to touch on that you saw that was of note?

[C]

Well, also speaking of theater kid energy, my favorite screening experience was Maddie's Secret, the John early film, which, you know, is the only movie that not a single person I spoke to didn't enjoy. It's very hard movie to explain, which doesn't mean I don't want to try. But, you know, the short version is, I tweeted, I think Wet Hot May December, you know, a movie that has the kind of like ensemble comedy vibes of a David Wayne movie, but the stylization and thematics of a Todd Haynes movie. Particularly the Todd Haynes not just of May December, but like of superstar the Karen Carpenter story, which is a big influence on this because this is sort of a, I hesitate to call it a parody or a pastiche. It's not mocking it in a bad way, but of after school specials or TV movies of the week. In this case, it's a dishwasher at a big food content influencer company who becomes an on screen star. And this weighs on her personal life and whether she wants to have a kid. And certainly it reactivates the psychological issues she has related to food. And she is played in. John early called it not a drag performance, but she's, you know, she's, she's played in a wig by, by John early, the, you know, the co writer, director of the film. And it's a beautiful performance, fully realized character. The whole movie is in quotes, but the whole movie is sincere. When it does get online, there's a scene of Conor o', Malley, who runs the food influencer company, saying something like, let's make content, which I think should just become our Stand in answer to everything you know.

[A]

That's. That's a go right there. Conor o'. Malley.

[C]

Well, this is it. People are like. On the first night, there were other things screaming, like, why are you going to Maddie's Secret? And I'm like, this is like Kate Berlant and Connor o'. Malley. These are the people. I want to see it, too. I don't give a shit about whoever else has a gala. These people are brilliant. It's a brilliant cast and the tonal control and the formal control of it. For a movie that was made very cheaply. They talked about filming it in John Early's house. It's the same team that produced Rap World, which is a great film.

[A]

Amazing movie. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. No, I think it's really good. And I think it was one of those movies that felt organically like everyone on the ground went to see it and enjoyed it. A lot of people I know were there for the premiere. And then over the course of the festival, I saw people adding it to their website, Tiffer, which is this website that helps you share schedules. And I saw people I know logging it on. Logging it on Letterbox. Yeah, It's a separate use site that lets you schedule it and see what your friends are doing. It's very helpful.

[A]

Got it.

[C]

Also to know what to avoid, you know, Tiffer. So, yeah, Maddie's secret. Really, really, really good.

[A]

Great. Rex, what are the big. Any huge. I mean, no other choice. Did you get out to that?

[C]

I did, and I was underwhelmed. It's one of those movies where wouldn't be. No kidding. Yeah. It's okay. The filmmaker's great, but I found it tedious. You know, it's like.

[D]

It's too.

[C]

One of those. It's too long almost. When every shot is perfect, what hits. You know, this guy, he's a. He's a master filmmaker. And in this case, I'd be, like, annoying because I just, you know, the material, the Donna Westlake material, is very pulpy. And this is not pulp exactly. It's like operatic pulp. I'm gonna try and write about it at some point. I know people liked it a lot. I would not begrudge anybody enjoying it. It's not like it's badly made.

[D]

I did like it. But I. You know, I. I do think that it. It's. It's two and a half hours, and you can. You can feel when it hits two hours and things get a little loosey goosey. On the flip side, there. There are a couple of set pieces that were very exciting.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, he. Look, he has juice as a filmmaker, but this is not a surprise. And I'm shocked that it didn't win anything in Venice, because formally, it's obviously very impressive.

[A]

It won the International People's Choice Award this year, which is that a new thing that TIFF is doing.

[C]

It is a new thing. So many wonderful awards at tiff. We're getting into the danger zone of asking me what I think about TIFF and its awards this year, which could make for a very long, contentious podcast. Suffice. Suffice it to say, it was probably always going to be the movie that won that award because he's a very commercially oriented, you know, quote, unquote, foreign language. Foreign language filmmaker. And as for the other stuff, I mean, you either talk about it or you don't. There were some real controversies on the ground with TIFF this year. I don't know how much they intersect with the listenership of an American podcast or how much it really matters, you know, but there was. There were programming decisions that were the stuff of much scrutiny and media explanation, you know, on the ground pertaining to this documentary, you know, the Road Between Us by Barry Averich, which. And it. It could only have ended this way, that after being programmed, deprogrammed, reprogrammed under extremely contentious, you know, controversial circumstances, with a fortified premiere and, you know, unbelievable levels of online scrutiny and protest, it then went and won the People's Choice Award for Best documentary, which is like, in a grim way, the funniest possible outcome. You know, this is gonna. This is one of those chapters in tiff's history that I think will be more legible and interesting in retrospect. And if you chose to not navigate the festival being mindful of that, then you don't notice it's happening. Because as far as the actual movie goes, who gives a shit?

[A]

It.

[C]

But the stories were quite thick on the ground. Is that obscuring it too much to say all that? Or it's.

[A]

I mean, that's the thing is that these festivals, which, if you do not attend, seem like ivory tower experiences where only the most blessed people get to walk into them. It's like these are all made by regular people doing their best and making mistakes on a regular basis. And they're very. The narrative and the feeling changes every day based on what movie has played or what person has been allowed to participate in the party. And so I'm not surprised to hear you say that also, you know, it's such an important event to Toronto. But there's no denying that TIFF has fallen back a couple of steps to some of the other major festivals. Like it just in terms of the hierarchy of what films premiere there. Like, it's clear that it's happened in the last 10 years.

[C]

And that narrative is both, like, true because it's a narrative. And then if you take it apart, sometimes it's not a fair narrative or the way that people think movies get invited or programmed or whose choice it is. I mean, it's not really the way it works. And you guys know this, right? But this year's the 50th anniversary of the festival and it was funny. They show these pre film bumpers which, if you ever attend the festival, once or twice you laugh, and then by the 10th or 11th time, you want to drill to extract the evil spirits from your head because you're just so sick of it. But they had the one, the ad for the volunteers who deserve applause every year. They're great. Which is like, I think the punchline is like, stop trying to make Tifty happen. Because it's the TIFF 50. And that, that, that, that portmanteau. And the joke is that, you know, in the end, you know, tifty turns out to be a good nickname, but it was almost like TIFF itself stopped trying to make Tifty happen. Because some of the press about, you know, this idea of programming and who was taking responsibility for inviting this particular film, which was invited and then disinvited and then reinvited. And there are interviews having to clarify the reasons for this. It was, it curdles things a little bit on the ground to the point where some filmmakers were even mentioning it from the stage where local press and Twitter are definitely talking about it. It sort of supersedes the question of like, hey, remember when the Big chill premiered here 40 years ago? Like, that's what they wanted the feeling to be. And that just sort of became hard when reality comes and sweeps in and, and, and, and intrudes. And I mean, if anything, I think we're going to start seeing this more and more. We saw it at the Emmys last night or, you know, various, you know, red carpet speeches. I mean, that was starting to pierce that TIFF bubble of everything's fine, you know, while having massive respect for programmers at the festival who I work with and being lucky enough to cover it, it did not feel like all was fine. And that's why if you choose to just put your head down and see movies and navigate it, that's a valid reaction. And if you're covering it or if you're on the ground living in the city, you can feel it. It's not something I'm imposing, it's something that was felt by it. All kinds of people I spoke to, filmmakers, visitors. Maybe not in the Criterion line, but.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, just to put a cap on that, in general, I think the Criterion experience and that community that you were describing earlier is for many people a respite from what seems like a very, very chaotic and scary period of time in the world. And I certainly have been using movies for the last decade as a. A rejoinder or a rejection or shelter from a lot of those things. But especially if you're a film festival that is inviting international cinema, the works of art are going to be about what's happening in the world, and you're going to have to contend with them and confront them. And so it's a paradox, right, because you want to escape, but that's not. Choosing art to not escape is one of the great things about art.

[C]

Can I ask Amanda something? Because I've not been. I've been to Venice, the city. I've done like, you know, the Don't look now tour of Venice, but I've not. I've not been to the festival.

[A]

You wear a raincoat.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I keep wanting my daughter to dress up in a red raincoat for Halloween. And my wife's like, that's a bad idea. Yeah, like, it's funny. It's a bit. Were there people at the movies, Amanda? Like, regular.

[D]

Yes, there are. And if anything, I would say that this year was a little over subscribed in terms of the number of people who were there on a small island in a city that has some infrastructural challenges, if you will, trying to get into the movie. So it was hard to see movies and I was not able to see everything that I wanted to see. Venice does it slightly differently where everything is ticketed and then you can kind of stand in a line last minute to try to get in if people don't show up. But. So it was more that it was difficult to get tickets than it was just to be standing in line for hours and hours. But people are there. And I met young people, like young listeners of the podcast who, you know, one was traveling for. He had like a scholarship before college and so used the money to go to the festival.

[C]

And other people, did they ask what Sean was like in Italian?

[D]

No, they just asked for a selfie on a water bus, which was sort of tricky from a balance perspective, but we got it done.

[A]

This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Forget your wallet? It's all good because with Apple Pay, you can pay with a simple tap of your iPhone, the wallet you never forget at millions of places worldwide, including websites, apps, and anywhere you see the contactless symbol. Security is built in with face ID so you don't have to worry about your cards getting lost or stolen. And the best part? You still earn the card rewards, points and cash back you love. So say goodbye to the bifold, add your card to Apple Wallet and start paying the Apple Way Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Pretty Litter. Keeping your house clean when you've got a cat is no easy feat. But with Pretty Litter, you don't have to choose between a fresh house and a healthy cat. This litter is practically magic. It's low dust, controls odors, and lasts up to a whole month. But the best part? It monitors your cat's health every time they use the box. Plus, Pretty Litter ships free right to your door, so no heavy bags to carry and no last minute pet store runs right now. Save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy at Pretty Litter.com BigPicture that's PrettyLitter.com BigPicture to save 20% on your first order AND get a free cat toy. Prettylitter.com BigPicture Pretty Litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details. This episode is presented by State Farm. You know what's even more impressive than being an expert at movie trivia? Being smart about saving money. And a great way to do that is by choosing to bundle home and auto insurance with State Farm. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Adam, thank you for great work as always covering the festival.

[C]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

The good news is that there's a Paul Thomas Anderson movie coming soon, so you'll be back on the pod very soon, which we're excited about.

[C]

Yeah, one podcast after another. I look forward to it.

[D]

There it is.

[A]

That's how we live every day. All right, let's go to our chat with Chris Ryan now. Okay. CR Is here, and he's here because an unusual thing happened, which is a movie phenomenon struck, and I picked my head up and my. My two pod bros were not here. You guys were on the East Coast.

[B]

You were alone in the classroom.

[A]

I was alone. And I was the Alex Lilly of the big picture when Weapons came out. And I did my best, and I had a really fun conversation with Zach Kreger about the movie, but the streets needed to know. Well, they needed to know what CR Thought, but now the streets need to know what Amanda thinks, too. Yeah. Nothing personal against you, but, you know, you're not a horror expert. This was one of the horror sensations of the year. So we're going to talk a little bit about Weapons and a little bit about the Conjuring Last Rites, which is also going to end up being one of the biggest movies of the year, because that's just how things are going in Hollywood right now. But CR Yeah. Zach Kreger's Weapons. What did you think of the movie?

[B]

Loved it.

[D]

Loved it.

[B]

Seen it twice. The second time, it went from, like, four stars to five stars. For me, I think it really, like, knowing where it's going and knowing how long each of the sections last, I think is just like, it kind of settles your. Your lizard brain while you're watching it and you're just sort of enjoying every little piece. And, you know, the second time I went with my wife, and she was like, let me know when I can pee. And I was like, you can't, because I actually can't pick a point where you should be absent for one of these sections. And each time, like, I kept thinking, like, oh, wait, could she get kind of like, no, this is the. This is the Marcus section. This is where Gladys reveals and all this stuff. So I think that to have something that's such a huge movie and so deeply entertaining and satisfying, that's also like, something you can pick over and something you can wonder about, how to interpret and think about all the different ideas in it. But also, it's just an incredibly satisfying movie experience, is a really, really big reward.

[A]

Amanda, the last time we talked about a Zach Kreger movie on this podcast.

[D]

I had a concussion.

[A]

Yes, you damaged your skull because you walked into a piece of furniture.

[D]

It was my first day back from leave after night, so my first day at work after having a child. A pretty emotional, disorienting thing. And then I did, in fact, walk into a pole.

[A]

Yes. And you were rewarded after that with a scene by scene description of Zach Kreger's. Barbarian from Chris and I this time around. You saw the movie.

[D]

I did.

[A]

Even though you saw the trailer at Cinemacon and said, I will never be seeing that movie.

[D]

Right.

[A]

But you didn't suspect that it would become as big as it has become. Right. That was what you had said earlier in the show.

[D]

I knew it was gonna be a thing because Barbarian was a sensation and. And you both were so excited for it, you know, and. And because of the presentation. The reason that I wasn't gonna see it because it was like a. About a bunch of kids disappearing. And that's a pretty tender topic at any given time, so.

[A]

Because you are hiding children, not Drake, so.

[D]

But it wasn't because I didn't expect it to. To do well, but I still. I think we all were kind of like, wow, 43 million or something is around there the very first weekend. That was.

[A]

That was a big deal, especially in. In August for a movie like that to pop. So there's two places to go in this. Well, first of all, what did you think?

[D]

Oh, I liked it a lot.

[A]

You did?

[D]

Okay. Yeah, No, I. I really. I liked it very much. I thought it was strange and also compulsively watchable. I want to talk about what it's about and also its resolutions, but. Yeah, no, this is quite good. I get it.

[A]

It is really. Even though it has supernatural elements and we're gonna spoil the movie all the way through here. Even though it has supernatural elements, it is basically a suspense thriller for the first hour and a half.

[D]

I mean, I was thinking MH Shyamalan, but more pinned down.

[A]

Yes, yes, sort of. It is. I agree with you. But then it goes into some outlandish places in interesting ways. The other reason that I think the movie is kind of demanding some conversation is it is also potentially an awards movie this year, which is not something I ever would have guessed. Even when I saw it at first, I never really entertained that. And then the way that it has picked up in the culture. It's now available on VOD so people can watch it, but it's. I think it is among the highest grossing original horror movies of all time. And I think it is actually in the top 30 highest grossing horror movies of all time, which is just fascinating when you think about the origins of this movie, which is that it's a movie written from a place of vulnerability after Cragger's close friend passed away. And just trying to get something out that is related to the feeling that he had around that. And then find a way to Turn it into movie form, and then managed to create this bidding war for the movie with the studios. And being the studio that it landed at is the same studio that launched Sinners this year. And so it becomes part of this bigger conversation about what's going on in this genre. But before we get into that, I have no one to blame but myself for this. But I pointed out that some frustration with critics who were asking the question, what is this movie about? Or it is not really about anything. Anything. And, you know, that's my mistake for being on social media, but I do want to have that conversation with you guys because we've now had over a month to, like, witness the movie, and it's, you know, residual discourse.

[D]

Oh, has it been good? The discourse? I was.

[B]

No, that was sarcastic.

[A]

I don't think the discourse has been bad. I don't think it's been bad. Like, I don't think it. It's not like, it's not toxic. It's just that there's a. There's certainly a strain of people who don't like the movie or think the movie is, like, thin or doesn't really decide on what it wants to be about. And then there are other people who are like, how many movies do you watch a year? Like, no movies feel like this.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. So for you, Chris, like, what was your takeaway in terms of what you thought this movie was about?

[B]

It hadn't occurred to me that it had to be about anything. You know, I mean, I don't. I don't necessarily think that's a requirement of a movie to be both great and about something. I don't really know what Pulp Fiction's about. I don't really know what. And what's Eyes Wide Shut about? You know, like, a lot of stuff, but, like, not explicitly. At the end of the movie, you're like, now I understand.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I'm not comparing weapons to either of those movies in terms of.

[A]

I think it's much better than I.

[B]

Think, clearly, like, we should just start cinema History over again. Adbc.

[A]

Let's delete the other films.

[B]

Yeah, let's delete all the other pods we've ever done. But I do think that there are some pretty obvious ideas. I think the thing that people are having a hard time with is this movie is meant to be interpreted, but perhaps not solved. And because it happens in a genre that people often are either given a third act that explains, like, well, there was a farmer here before and he killed his family, and their demons have been haunting this House the entire time. Like, because there's not like, a really tidy explanation for why is Gladys doing this or how is she doing it? And you know, how. Why are these people susceptible but some other people aren't? And what the is with the gun? Because there's not a tidy explanation. I think people are, like, kind of grasping at straws or being like, he doesn't know. And so how dare he, like, hint at this, that or the other thing without having, like a. A suitable explanation?

[A]

Yeah, I saw that as like a little bit of a hangover effect of 10 years of post. Kind of post. Ari Aster Jordan Peele Horror, where those guys made films that had a lot of subtext and thematic meaning and that they were often very definitively about ideas.

[D]

Right.

[A]

And then a lot of kind of imitators that came in their path that then got identified as elevated horror. Each film had to have, like, a central theme thesis for being often one.

[B]

That the characters themselves explain.

[A]

Would explain. And this movie obviously doesn't do that, even though it explains some things. When you were watching it, did you find yourself hunting for theme or were you just watching it as a thrill ride?

[D]

Well, I definitely was like, what's that gun about? You know, but not in like, a reasonable question. As it was happening, I was like, well, that seems like a very large assault weapon just floating in the sky. But then. But. And that was also I was trying to figure out, okay, so, like, this is a mirror. How. You know, that was very much in a. Like, I'm trying to. I am trying to solve whatever is going on, like, the characters in the movie and like, you know, my dumb brain based on this movie. And then what you told me about weapons when I had a head injury.

[A]

Barbarian. Barbarian.

[D]

Oh. Oh, that's right. That's right.

[A]

You still have the head injury.

[D]

Unfortunately.

[A]

Yeah. Cte is real.

[D]

Yeah, I was. As the Gladys stuff starts coming together, I was kind of like, okay, so older maternal figures. Interesting, Interesting depictions across two movies. And perhaps, you know, maybe we could investigate that slightly. I was like, what should I take from this? But that's really all. And I didn't, you know, I wasn't suddenly like, okay, well, so Zack Gregor is saying that all women over the age of 40 are bad or something. You know, I don't. I wasn't. I was just kind of. I noticed that, but that's as far as it went.

[A]

Yeah, there's definitely some. Something to that. To the, you know, the hag figure. But then there's also, like, I think the Movie, I think Barbarian weirdly has a lot of empathy for its monster, and its monster is a victim in that movie. This is different. In this movie, the monster's the monster. Yeah. And there's no confusion.

[D]

You asked whether I was looking and thinking about themes, and I was like, yes, I see this, but. But that's as far as it went. Otherwise, I really was trying to figure out, like, okay, what's happening? And. And to Chris's point, you know, I had to keep watching. I watched this on vod, but. And. But I was locked in. I did not look at my phone. Because you could not.

[A]

Yeah. Because you don't want to miss anything.

[D]

Exactly. And the story moves quickly and. And you do want to understand, at least plot wise, what's going on.

[A]

I feel like it is potentially about a great many things and it at least being suggesting to me the grief element, that was the thing that popped out to me the most. It wasn't this idea of, like, is this movie about school shootings? That was something that people jumped to right away because of the disappearance of kids in an empty classroom and then the image of the AR15 over the house when Brolin is searching for his child. And the title, certainly. But to me, it was the confusion and the depression that engulfs people when you lose someone like that. That is really the driving force of the movie's idea for me. And to me, even if it is not the most deftly explored version of that idea, I was like, that's more than enough for a movie to be about.

[B]

And I think that's something that movies generally, but specifically horror movies have often explored is like a common anxiety or fear or malady. So there's something wrong with my child. Right. And then it's like, what if your child was Pazuzu? Yeah, you know, like, yeah, that is what the horror movie comes in and is like. I can't as a. And look like. It's obvious that I. I wonder whether Kreger is now, like, it's awesome that I have everybody spinning out about this AR15. Or if he's like, if I had just taken the AR15 out, like, there would be no kind of like, what the. Like, what does this really mean? But if you take it at face value, you're like, well, this is a movie where a bunch of children disappear and then an automatic weapon is floating around in the night sky. So it's an allegory about a community dealing with the loss of children after a mass shooting.

[D]

I.

[A]

If.

[B]

If it is that, that that that's totally fine with me. It's also like how would you deal with that? You know? And what if. What would you need for there to be to deal with this kind of situation? And what you would need is a monster, you would need a witch. You would need something to explain why this happened and possession and turning good people into bad people and that there's something out there that's doing that rather than maybe something inside of them. So I think I find that awesome to think about. Also coming out of like there's good needle drops and Austin Abrams is very funny in this movie, you know.

[D]

Right. Yeah, it's funny. My reaction to. I think that's very smart and is in line to maybe not my frustration, but as a non horror, you know, habitual. At some point when it's clear like the literal explanation in the movie is like a supernatural thing. And I always, I'm just like. Well, I always feel slightly disappointed by that just because I don't really seek out horror movies for the gore. And so then the only other aspect of it and often in horror movie is like a supernatural or else someone is. Has just lost their mind and the explanation is never quite good enough for what's going on in the movie which is maybe itself something profound about life. But I think that it's. I don't think that I was looking for an answer or for.

[B]

A lesson.

[D]

Like a lesson from it. But that at some point the structure of the reason that I don't always seek out horror movies is because some sort of supernatural metaphorical thing that sort of solves it, but doesn't really never quite speaks to me in the way that I guess other movies just dealing with actual real life things. So I think I'm on your side. Even though I felt I agree with you even though I bumped up against the lack of the answer. But that's just because I think the form and the. The horror movie asks the questions but maybe doesn't totally provide answers.

[A]

Yeah, I think in this movie that that conversation has two tracks. One track goes down a road of questions about Aunt Gladys and how she works and what she's actually getting by trapping these kids. And is it keeping her younger? Is it making her more young? How old is she? Where did she come from? Is she actually this woman's great aunt? In the movie she represents herself to the principal as her sister. There's a lot of unexplained kind of hidden information around the Amy Madigan character. So that's one thing. And then the Other thing is, to your point, that's a little bit more broad. I think you would agree with this for the most part. But for most horror movies, the first hour is usually more satisfying than the second hour.

[D]

Right.

[A]

And this is a movie with a relentless first hour where you are just like, good God, I'm inside this. They have, like, completely wrapped me around their finger of the unraveling of this story. And the second hour, there is an answer about what's happening. Some people may not like the answer, and that's okay. That's just. That's movies. Right. It's subjective. But the answer not being something hard coded into what it means seems to be what is bothering some people about it. Whereas for me, it did the thing that I think a lot of great horror movies do, which is that you get an answer, Right? We find out what's happening. Dante. Gladys. We actually find out with a lot of movie left that there's a witch, and this witch has trapped these kids and that she's using them to stay alive. And she's kind of like, got this town under control. But the resolution of the story, which is this unbelievable, breathtaking moment where, you know, Alex wraps and snaps the twig.

[D]

And the chase sequence is the most incredible thing I've ever. Yeah.

[A]

Which is just like pure pop cinema joy.

[B]

And is shot for maximum laughs.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like the guy lawnmower.

[A]

It's like Coen brothers making an Exorcist movie. It's fucking awesome.

[D]

And mirrors, like, the opening montage of all the children running away through the night, which I found to be very memorable and upsetting. So. No, it's great stuff, but.

[A]

So then you get to the end and you're like, that was really satisfying. Or at least that's how I felt. But I didn't feel like I needed to kind of unpack those additional details that were otherwise unexplained. Cause I'm like, this is a supernatural horror movie movie.

[B]

He does a lot of things that are really interesting in terms of the narrative organization of the movie. Not only because of the chapter, kind of like, not quite Rashomon, where things are massively different depending on who's watching them. But, like, you just get different pieces of information from different narrators and different POV characters. I thought it was striking. To me, you're right about the horror movie. First acts are often where the audience sees themselves the most because that's the scenarios. You've gone on vacation in the woods. You've been to a punk rock bar. You've Been to you've. You've had nights, I'm sure, where your kids just won't calm down, you know, or whatever it is that the. The horror movie is picking at. The longer the horror movie goes in, the more it gets further away from the audience, I think, because it's like, well, now we're. Now this guy's changing them in the chainsaw. That's never happened to me. You know, my car's broken down before, but I've never been chased by Leatherface. I think that the interesting thing with the way this movie starts is the. The indescribable happens first. So the first thing we hear is that all these kids have disappeared. It's interesting, too, because they never. They also says they never come back. You know, then most of the beginning opening shots are from behind, like following these people walking into rooms and following all of the, like, first Justine shots are from behind.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is a very first person shooter trick to put you in the perspective of this person. But it's happening after the tragedy, so I think that almost lessens. Lessens the effect of it being like trauma porn. You know what I mean? It almost becomes more of a fairy tale as it goes on that way.

[D]

Zach, my husband, agreed to watch at least the first half with me, which is pretty rare, because he will not watch anything upsetting. And he was like, I heard that. It's not like scary scary, it's more just upsetting. And I think. I think that's true. But the first hour, there aren't any kills. There's nothing really even. I guess there's some spooky stuff.

[A]

There's three big jump scares in the movie that all feature Aunt Gladys appearing.

[B]

Two dreams in the basement.

[A]

And then I guess to some extent, the moment in the woods where she's.

[B]

That's creepy as far as.

[A]

She's really a great, amazing shot. But particularly Justine seeing her in the light fixture in the ceiling and then Brolin seeing her in the bed. Or the two moments really where you're like, in a movie theater at the premiere, I was like, that was fucking scary. You know, like, it is using the James Wan, like, loud bang trick, where when they show you the fright, you know, it's using a familiar trick. But when you don't know anything about Aunt Gladys and you see that in a loud. In a quiet, dark movie theater, it was very effective. But the rest of the movie doesn't really care about that stuff at all. I mean, it really doesn't use any of those horror movie tools. It's really kind of only interested in unfurling what it thinks is good about the story.

[B]

I think there's also a lot of like, am I supposed to laugh or be scared here? Like when Alex's mom comes out of the house with the scissors.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And walks up to the car and Justine's sleeping and you're like, is she gonna kill Justine? Is she gonna kill herself? Like, what's gonna happen?

[A]

But when the back door opens, everybody in the theater was like, yeah, it.

[D]

Was really, really good.

[B]

It's like that's like that moment that gets described by the great cinematographer. William Fraker often talks about this scene in Rosemary's Baby where Polanski has him, like, move the camera so that everybody has to crane their head around the door jamb to see. And he's like, everybody in the theater at the premiere just like, move their head to the right. It's like little tricks like that are amazing.

[A]

There's one other idea that this did not occur to me, but I love it as something that this movie could be about, which is just the way that older people just overlook what's going on with their kids and all kids and communities and that they don't really are not attentive enough. And also that Gladys represents an older generation that is vampiring younger generations and using like siphoning their life force quite literally to stay in power.

[B]

To sit on that. To sit in that three bedroom house.

[A]

Yes, yes. And that is, I thought, a smart reading, a cool way of thinking about the movie. Again, I don't know if that's something Cragger was thinking about specifically, but you could feel that that interpretation makes a lot of sense to me.

[B]

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out parts of this movie and then I let it go where it was like, what is it about the characters who Gladys basically like indoctrinates over the course of the film that makes them vulnerable to her powers versus Justine, who I guess is really the one who is impenetrable, you know, and even though she gets her hair cut and everything, she has never snapped into a sort of accolade of Gladys. And I couldn't really figure it out. There's something obviously childlike, like about Marcus, the principal, who's like a Disney adult who's watching like eating kids food basically the entire.

[A]

Hot dogs.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Seven hot dogs.

[D]

You and Phoebe, could you do it?

[B]

I think they cut them in half, so. I bet.

[A]

Do they?

[B]

They're pretty small hot dogs, aren't they?

[A]

I thought they were seven Full hot dogs on a tray.

[D]

Yeah, it was.

[A]

I mean, it was.

[B]

I honestly shouldn't. You should shoot. Two is, like, my limit.

[A]

It's a lot. Two is a lot. How many hot dogs could you eat?

[D]

I mean, three if, like, pressed two, you know, But I think a two is probably.

[B]

I did after the. When I saw it the second time, and I was at the supermarket afterwards, hit. I hit up some Pepperidge Farm for the first time in a long time. Nice, because I got some Milanos.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Quality cookie. Mark is very inspirational. Just like it's about me, you know.

[A]

Is there anything to. Well, one other idea that's in the movie is about sobriety, which I thought was kind of interesting, which is that in the weapons font, we see the AA symbol, you know, the triangle inside of the circle. And, you know, we know that Alden Ehrenreich's character is in aa. We know that Justine.

[B]

Reluctantly.

[A]

Very reluctantly. Justine is a drinker. There's some.

[B]

Seems as a myth. Meth addict.

[A]

Yes. There's a drug addict who's trying to get money any way he can so they can get more drugs. Again, these are not like. They're details about characters that help you understand the world that they live in. It's not a thesis about addiction or recovery or any of those ideas, but it's there, and it does, you know. Is Justine's relationship to alcohol dictate whether or not she's susceptible to the witch or not? I don't. You know, I don't think there's any clear line of logic there, but it is the kind of thing that gets you thinking. And I think a fair criticism is like, that's messy to not clarify that, but I never felt that when I was watching it. But then I read people and they're like, why is this not resolved or communicated more clearly?

[D]

Why she's the exception.

[A]

And does.

[B]

Yeah, I. I like the idea that all the characters in the movie, you know, as we join them. What is it, a month after it's happened?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Something like that. It's like, when it starts. Have moved into. Even though the. The dominating thing that should be shrouding this town in darkness is this disappearance of all these kids. They're moving into their own, you know, And Justine is kind of both at once, like, trying to clear her name and become a detective and get to the bottom of it, but is also having, like, this sort of narcissistic moment of being like, everybody is against me. Everybody thinks I'm a witch.

[D]

I mean, that, to me, the biggest plot hole is ma', am, leave. Leave the town, you know, But I understand it's a classic horror movie. Like, don't go down there. But, like, don't. Don't go to the meeting.

[A]

Well, one. One explanation I think, for that is that she's already been, like, let go from one job as a teacher, and if she leaves another one, then she might have trouble getting a third job. That was my interpretation of it. And that if she's kind of like, I have to stay here to teach, and then she gets put on leave. But I. I don't think she would.

[B]

Be able to let it go, though, because I think she's somebody who's either, like, I'm on it.

[A]

That's why she wants to talk to Alex. She's like, we're the only ones left.

[B]

Or I'm drinking a giant glass of vodka and watching reality television and going to bed.

[A]

Seems like a good teacher. And the rest of her life is kind of. It's not full.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But as far as Paul and James goes, it's interesting. I mean, I guess Paul is making a passing kind of gesture towards sobriety, but clearly she's seems like, reluctant to go to a meeting when his fiance or his partner suggests that he does so. And then James, in some ways is kind of like the most naked character, but I don't know. What did you make of the Austin Abrams character in this movie? Is he there for comic relief? Is he there to have, like, to move plot along?

[A]

I mean, a bit of both. I think he's there to, like, represent a certain kind of, like, real life concern in communities. You know, that, like, when you're looking for explanations for problems, you'd be like, it's the drug addict's fault. You know what I mean? And the way that cops would be distracted by your local junkie and not really getting to the bottom of bigger problems in communities is son of a police officer over here. You know, like, there. There's something to that. There's something to the way that time is spent in law enforcement. And whether or not it's adding up to a greater good is like. That's a provocative idea. You know, I don't know if he's fully exploring it. It's another piece of the puzzle in this Magnolia by way of Hereditary movie that he's constructed. Aunt Gladys, let's talk about her. So I told this story on the pod when I saw the movie at the premiere. Krieger brought Amy Madigan on stage before the movie.

[B]

Oh, did he really?

[A]

And he said, now I'd like to introduce my dream come true, Amy Madigan. And I was like, amy Madigan's in this movie? I was like, I haven't seen Amy Madigan in a movie in, like, 10 years. Yeah. And when she came on stage and was the last person introduced and everybody was clapping, I was like, hmm, seems.

[B]

Like she's going on here.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

A big deal.

[A]

And, you know, you're an hour plus into the movie. And I was like, where's Amy Madigan?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And then she shows up. And she shows up and she's unrecognizable. And I think for most people, they won't recognize the wife from Field of Dreams right away. You know, the woman who gives the, you know, profound speech about literature in the high school gymnasium. And I think this is just a crazy good horror movie villain performance. And she's very, very scary. And you immediately want to know more about what she's trying to do, which is the sign of a good villain in my mind. Like, what is the motivation? Where is it coming from? How does it work? All the tools.

[D]

They do a pretty good job of explaining that, too. I mean, she's made up like a terrifying clown, which is very smart. And also just the colors are used very well in what is otherwise, like, a pretty muted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

She's actually in. I didn't notice this the first time, but she's in the opening couple of minutes of the movie where there's a shot from behind Alex as he's given a Coke, and they're interviewing. Then they do like, a kind of, like, you can see the red wig in, like, like, a quarter of the frame.

[A]

I saw her side, and I didn't.

[B]

I didn't notice that the first time around. It's interesting that she is only truly seen in that way by Alex, the kids, presumably, and Marcus, who is childlike in his own way. And, like, there's almost like this. She scares me because I'm a kid, and this is how I imagine she looks kind of way. But when she's, like, later in the film, when she's, like, just wearing, like, her braid and is, like, drinking. Drinking the stews or whatever the fuck she's doing, she looks so much different. But, like, to these. To these kids, she looks like this grotesque kind of redheaded clown figure. It's very, very chilling.

[A]

Now, was it when I was in Telluride? I was talking about how supporting actress is a weird and possibly weak category this year.

[D]

And you can see I Mean, it's a good story.

[B]

I like the idea of you bellying up to a bar with nobody and just started talking about supporting actress.

[A]

Are you talking to a bartender who's never seen a movie before? This is who I am. This is what I do. But yeah, it's not the most robust category. And penny for your thoughts. This is, you know, her career is a very interesting one and she's given a lot of great performances and seems like someone who's very well liked. You know, I think a lot of people think of her and they think of the not applauding Ilia Kazan moment at the Academy Awards with her husband Ed Harris because of. Of the House on American Activities testimony that he gave and just being a very ethical and politically minded person. And she's done a lot of good work. But like I said, just Gone Baby, Gone maybe is the last big movie that I remember her being in. I guess she was in Scott Cooper's Antler some years ago. But really it's like Places in the Heart, female perversions, Field of Dreams, 80s and 90s is really a sweet spot for her. I'm sure that she did. You would know that better than me. But now when you Google Amy Madigan, one of the first images you see is Aunt Gladys. You know what I mean? Like this is going to end up becoming one of the signature roles for now.

[B]

She's having a blast of it. I'm really happy for her.

[A]

I mean she's really wonderful in this movie. You think any other Oscar potential, having seen it now?

[D]

I mean it's very well made. It is upsetting to a lot of people, you know, below the line. I don't know, something like this would have to have some like up top support in order to, I think really make it into some of the guild categories. And when is the last time a like big budget horror movie was in the, in, in like in the best picture conversation?

[A]

Probably. Get out.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's like every 10 or 12 years. Yeah, yeah, it could happen.

[B]

I hope sinners in this are nominated for best picture. I think that would be really good.

[A]

Yeah, I mean this is one of the conundrums of this year. And that campaign, Warner Brothers, I guess announced DeLuca and Abdy announced that they would be mounting campaigns for sinner's weapons and one battle after another. And it's very hard for movie studios to campaign for more than two movies, let alone one movie. And I would imagine that weapons is the, you know, the, the little sibling relative to those Two, because those two movies have big potential as Best Picture candidates and all that other stuff, you know, in a different year, in a softer year. I think an original screenplay for Weapons is not out of the realm of possibility. It's now Contending With Sinners in that same category. You know what I mean? Where it's like, would they really nominate two horror movies for original screenplay from the same studio? Maybe they would. I don't really know, but that would be cool. I do think Amy Madigan has a good chance. Best Picture. I don't really see it, but I hope it happens.

[D]

It would be fun.

[A]

It would be very fun. Cragger. So he's making a Resident Evil movie next, which is coming out next year, starring Austin Abrams. I've never played Resident Evil, but I.

[B]

Know that you have extensively. Yeah. What happens in Resident Evil, you are in a town different. You play different characters in different versions of the game. I can't remember the name of the girl that you play as, but that's who Mila Jovovich plays in, like, all the Paul W. Anderson movies. And then the town has been, like, had a chemical accident in a biological lab, and the residents are all zombies. So in the game, it's just like a lot of, like, horror setups where you walk into a room and it's dark, and then like, all of a sudden, some jump shot of you. But you also have to solve a puzzle to get out of the room. So it's pretty entertaining. I played it mostly early in my video game life.

[A]

When I talked to Zach, I asked him about IP making an IP movie, and he was like, this is not in the same way that you would think about it. This is an original story that just takes place in the world. He said he had never seen any of the Mila Jovovich movies, but he's played the games. But he said he loves the games. He worships the games.

[C]

Games.

[A]

To me, this is the way. This is the way. If we have to make $80 million video game adaptations, this is the way. I don't know if the movie's going to be good, but it's like, turn your IP over to someone who's like, I have an idea for this. I have my own vision. Alex Garland is doing it with Elden Ring.

[B]

Phoebe Wallerbridge is doing it with Tomb Raider.

[A]

Is that true? Is that officially happening?

[B]

Sophie Turner was playing Lara Croft.

[A]

It's good casting. And Death Stranding A24 is going to adapt that game with, I think, Michael Sarnoski, who directed Pig and A Quiet place. Day one, I pledged to get into video games.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[A]

On the Ringerverse.

[B]

Mal, listen, you want to play elden.

[D]

Ring 100 hours and your family and your screens?

[A]

I don't know how I'm gonna do it. Yeah, we're gonna start with Fortnite.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Really? Yeah. Because there's a one battle after another skin. And so we'll be playing it live.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you serious?

[D]

Yeah. We're doing that. Yes.

[A]

Yes. September 23rd, 1:00pm Pacific, everybody's YouTube channel.

[D]

Put on your. You know.

[B]

Are you gonna play Fortnite?

[D]

Yeah. I mean, Jack explained it, what it is to me, but I don't really remember. But, yes, I will be doing that. But that's the only video game that I will be playing. Anyway. It's a real. If we have to do this, then, okay. And, like, I hope you guys have fun.

[A]

If it's because comic book movies didn't start out this way, where it was like, it's the realm of auteurs, and I wonder how long this era will last. But while it's happening, I'm happy about it.

[D]

But I'm a little bit like this for you. The way I feel about Greta Gerwig doing Barbie and then Narnia, and it's like, what if instead, Greta Gerwig and Zach Kreger just made their own movies?

[A]

I did. I mean, I said almost exactly that to Zach, and he was like, don't worry. My next thing is original. I've already written it, and I'm really excited about it.

[D]

And listen, they've. I. You know, I don't.

[B]

And he also said that another movie that he's very excited about that he wrote took place in Gotham.

[A]

He did. He didn't say that to me. But he did say that. He did say that. Yeah.

[D]

I mean, that's fine. People should do whatever they want, I suppose. I don't really want to watch video game movies. Just like, I don't really want to play video games. But that's fine. They're making Devil Wears Prada, too, and Wuthering Heights with Charlie xcx. So I'll just be in my corner and you be in yours.

[A]

My corner is in the Conjuring House.

[D]

So it's still the same house?

[A]

No.

[B]

Well, we're in Pittstown now.

[A]

Ed and Lorraine. It's the same house. They're still storing all of the evil.

[B]

Objects, explicably keeping all the demonic possessed objects from the previous Conjuring movies in their own home.

[D]

So they relocated Them to a new.

[B]

No, they live in Connecticut and they have like a basement of.

[D]

Okay, but so they still live there. Yes, but this movie is not about them.

[B]

Yes, it is about them.

[A]

This is apparent.

[D]

So why did you say it's a different house?

[B]

It's a different haunted house. The house that they are de. Haunted on his head.

[A]

They live in the same home. But there's a new family that is haunted. In each of the Conjuring films, it's a new family or a new group of people that are haunted. And Ed and Lorraine Warren, who are paranormal psychologists, need to go explore and solve and defeat the evil force that has taken over this family. The Conjuring Last Rites is the new movie, reportedly the final movie in the Conjuring franchise. Zero percent chance of that happening. It's the ninth Conjuring movie, if you can believe that.

[B]

Nine, along with all the Annabelles and.

[A]

The Curse of La Llorona. Two nun movies, three Annabelle movies and four conjuring.

[B]

And this one draws heavily from Annabelle 2.

[A]

Okay, maybe this is the 10th, actually. Is La Llorona part of the Conjuring?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so There have been 10, I guess, directed by Michael Chavez, who's directed a few of these story by James Wan, who came up with the Conjuring franchise.

[B]

Although it sounds like this will be his last one.

[A]

It sure does. Thanks to some reporting from Matt Bellamy. Patrick Wilson and Vera Farmiga are back.

[B]

Vera Farmiga. Her neckline gets higher and higher every movie.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

The Wikipedia page does not include La Llorona on a list of.

[A]

So maybe it's not officially a part of it. That is a Chavez movie.

[B]

I did not.

[A]

You didn't see it? I didn't see it because Ed and Lorraine, their daughter is growing up in this movie. She's a teenager.

[B]

Judy.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Judy is experiencing some of the same visions that Lorraine experiences.

[B]

Intrusive psychic sensitivities.

[D]

Tough break mentioning she's seen no signs of this. We've seen no signs of this before.

[B]

She. It's been with her since she came into this world. A really rough birth for Judy Y where a demon was present.

[A]

Demon was present.

[B]

Not the power out is born stillborn. And yet Lorraine prays her back to life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With prayer doctors like this. It's out of my hands. And that Lorraine just keeps saying Heavenly Father.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

This movie last writes. I don't know whether I had a head injury for the other Conjuring movies, but this feels like a particularly like, pious, pious film.

[A]

A faithful film.

[B]

Yeah, kind of like it was Like a little bit more like I don't like trad wifey than I was expecting. It's very slow. It's like a two hour and 15 minute movie. And I would say like the first 90 minutes are just kind of like, will Ed and Lorraine take this final case or not? So it's a long time getting to the place where, you know, we are getting.

[D]

And is that. Are they not taking it because it's got bad ticker. Oh, they're not. It's not that they're worried about their daughter.

[B]

I think Lorraine is starting to worry about that. She's not technically a Ghostbuster. It's. Lorraine and Ed are still like. That's the family business.

[C]

Judy.

[B]

I don't even know what Judy does for work.

[A]

Judy's. She met a. She met a guy and he wants to marry her, but he wants to get their Blessing.

[B]

No, she's 20s.

[A]

Yeah, she's in her 20s.

[B]

It's also 1986, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

So she wants to get married, but she's starting to feel literally ghostly. Hands on her shoulder.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Ed can't eat lasagna anymore.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Incredibly bad beat. His diet has been completely. Yeah.

[B]

He's going to like red tablecloth, Italian places and being like, can I get like chicken on the chicken salad? Yeah. With dressing on the side.

[A]

So that's really not ideal. And you know Lorraine, she's a little kooky, I would say Lorraine, she's a little eccentric. She has encountered several demons face to face.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

This is something that is a part of her life. I don't know if Vera Farmiga is just a weird gal, but the energy. She brings a great energy to these movies. A very believable energy. Yes. But I choose to believe that this is how she really is.

[D]

She's.

[A]

She's pretty consistently. If you've seen Bates Motel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, if you've seen the Departed, if you've seen Running Scared, the Paul Walker vehicle. She's always a little haunted to me.

[B]

I guess so.

[D]

Yeah. But that's part of the charm.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And Tessa Formiga is her sister.

[A]

Yes. Taissa. Yeah. But she's like 20 years younger than her. I thought this movie was pretty good.

[D]

Oh, that's right. No spoilers. I'm on episode three.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

Is she on Gilded Age?

[D]

Gilded Age, Yeah. Another Gladys.

[A]

Yes, her name is Gladys.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you think of the name Gladys?

[D]

It wasn't on my list. And this weapons is sort of like a. Maybe a setback if it gets some International. Okay. But I think it's a nice name.

[B]

There is a world where you could say Aunt Gladys is actually Gladys from Gilded Age. Just she keeps replenishing herself.

[A]

Incredible. Take. These are both Warner's properties.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

This is going to be great in your video game for Paramount.

[B]

It would be dope if the last shot of Gilded Age ever is just Aunt Gladys. Like popping up on a train.

[A]

I mean, the Angladis prequel is rights itself. Conjuring last rights. Not very good. And it, it, it is incredibly successful.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

It opened to $80 million over the weekend, which is the third highest horror movie opening of all time. First of all, movies are back. Have you guys heard about this?

[D]

Yeah, we have.

[B]

Yeah, I did.

[A]

You know, $83 million over September with hit after hit.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Seven consecutive 40 million dollar openings for.

[B]

The studio in 2000, you know.

[A]

And, and will one battle after another make $40 million?

[D]

God, I hope so.

[A]

What do you think? What do you think?

[D]

They're working really, really hard.

[A]

This will air on Monday on the 15th.

[D]

Well, they're pushing all the premium formats pretty hard. All of that's sold out. At least in Los Angeles.

[B]

They're selling it as an action movie.

[D]

Do you have your tickets going with.

[B]

Him to the CityWalk?

[D]

Oh, I guess I'm not going, huh?

[A]

When's he going to see him?

[D]

No, it's a good point. It's a good point. Tough break for me though. If anyone listening has a spare Wednesday night ticket to One Battle after another, I'll buy it off of you. Yes, it will. I believe in Leo. And Leo is pounding the pavement. Leo is out here. He is leaving Oasis early, but he is. That's because he's got to get sleep. I'm sorry about that.

[A]

Fist bumped inadvertently. That was beautiful.

[B]

I was just. Last rates real quick. So conjuring movies, I go for two reasons. Jump scares and production design. Like, you know, they do a nice job where like, you know, the second one is my.

[D]

That's why I asked about the house. Yeah, that's a nice house. Until the, you know, all the demons.

[A]

Well, the second one is in England.

[D]

The second one.

[A]

The second one is very beautiful.

[B]

Is set in the 70s and it's kind of like.

[A]

Second one is. The first two are both, I think, very good.

[B]

Yes. And then, you know, I actually, if I remember, I think I like one of the nuns.

[A]

I'm not a big fan of the.

[B]

Dungeons, but this one, it just takes way too long to get going and there are 17 characters and you're like expected to care about any of them. And you just don't. Like, there's an eight people in the haunted house.

[A]

Let me ask you a question. Are you scared of mirrors?

[D]

No. I mean, I like, I don't need that many around.

[B]

What if your in laws gave you a. A very heavy wood carved mirror with three creepy babies carved into them?

[D]

That has to. My mother is actually gonna try to do this at some point. Like, I think maybe the fact that I live in Los Angeles and she lives in Atlanta has like smoothed this out. But like, I definitely slept in some like great aunt's, you know, tiny wood carved bed. And there are like definitely Angel's garden. And it has like a matching.

[B]

And one day your mom's gonna be like, your bed is ready.

[D]

Yeah. She's gonna be like, when are you gonna pick this up? Like, when is it for you? And it's really very, very creepy. And it has a mirror, but it's not like an old timey mirror.

[B]

Okay, well, there's a lot of. I would say that the scares don't really work in this movie.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

A new creepy doll named Susie who does some cool shit. But it's kind of like they play the same note over and over. This mirror is a portal to demon land. And then Annabelle makes an appearance. Spoilers. She does but as like five nights from Freddy the Doll, you know, like, she big. Annabelle shows up. You know, this is probably not.

[D]

Is Annabelle the one that claps or is that the Babadook or what's going on? You know, our friend Gilbert Cruz used to do that to me in the office of New York magazine, like 15 years ago. That's the only reference I have. Which one is it?

[A]

It's not. That's not Annabelle. Annabelle doesn't clap. Is the Babadook of the club.

[B]

I think that this. The problem with this one is that they just never get like a really scary thing. I guess it's like, like scaryish when Judy is possessed sort of. But yeah, there.

[A]

There's a. There are spoilers for the conjuring last. Right.

[B]

I know we were trying to preserve.

[A]

No, I. I really wasn't. But. And I don't care that much. It's been out for two weeks at this point. There is a. A family that has been murdered in this house or in this mirror.

[D]

Smurls.

[A]

The smurls.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As s. Yeah.

[B]

And family of eight intergenerational Four. Four daughters.

[A]

Yes. That is being haunted.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But then the family that is being. That has been murdered is like a farmer and his mother and his wife.

[B]

Used to be farmland. That was.

[D]

Who's in the mirror?

[A]

The mirror is a farmer and his wife and his wife's mother.

[D]

Okay. And so then the family of eight just. Just have the mirror.

[A]

They just have the mirror. Look at the mirror.

[B]

The mirror is like. The mirror is brought into the home because the mother in law buys it at a swap meet as a confirmation present for the oldest daughter.

[A]

Haunted swap meet is a really good idea for a movie where all the objects. Swap meet are haunted. That would be good. Let's do that.

[B]

It would be called Devil's Flea.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's like a guy who's like, I. All I do is sell.

[A]

No, it's devil's bargain.

[B]

Oh, Devil's party.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And we. We follow a guy who's just trying to get cool hipster T shirts.

[A]

Yep.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But instead is being chased by Shaker Furniture.

[A]

Yeah. He accidentally buys an unopened box of 1987 tops baseball cards at a swap meet. But the cards are haunted. Yeah. Oh, and then they all come to kill Kirby Puckett. Exactly. Right. Ken Griffey senior to K Thro. Yeah. Chris Sabo just sl. Slicing his head open. Last rights. Yeah. Wasn't that scary?

[D]

Okay. I'm sorry.

[A]

It's okay.

[B]

I'm ready for them to retire the Warren. We've also now far outpaced whatever, however legitimate or illegitimate. Like we are now turning the Warren into like Joseph and Mary, bringing peace to the demon land. Like they are just like. Like the Ghostbusters. And like the media is like, oh, it's. Ed and Lorraine are here, you know, and it's like, we need to. They can retire Ed's heart. Can't take it. Judy. I don't know. Do you want to see more conjuring movies with Judy and Tony?

[A]

Not really. Played Judy. She was fine, I thought. Pat Wilson, what a run.

[B]

Scream king.

[D]

Truly what.

[A]

I mean, what a run for this guy. You know, he figures prominently in another film coming out this fall.

[D]

I'm very excited to talk about it. He's great.

[A]

He's one very funny in that movie.

[D]

Very, very exciting.

[A]

It's a great, great sequence in that movie which we will see.

[B]

He is married to Carolina from succession.

[A]

He certainly is.

[B]

She is in this new law Jason Bateman show. Fun. Great. Great to see her back on the interesting screen.

[D]

Interesting.

[A]

That's a television show.

[B]

You see Black Rabbit.

[D]

Rabbit.

[A]

Black Rabbit.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Pat Wilson. I mean, just the box office king. Hit after hit for the guy.

[D]

I hope he got to buy that Brownstone in Brooklyn. For real?

[B]

I assure you he did, you know, but that's.

[D]

I hope that's what he pays.

[B]

He got some profit participation.

[A]

He's done pretty well between Conjuring and Insidious. Yeah, that's it. Any closing thoughts?

[C]

Chris?

[A]

Warner Brothers, I mean, they did it.

[B]

What's the next best, most viable genre after horror right now in the theaters?

[A]

Most viable genre.

[B]

The Warner Brothers story this year has been a story of. Of elevating horror or playing to the cheap seats. Was Final Destination, Bloodline Sworner.

[A]

It was.

[C]

Yeah, it was.

[A]

That's the new line.

[D]

I mean, kids movies.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[D]

Movie for movies for children.

[B]

Bring them together.

[A]

Yeah, that's what weapons is.

[B]

That's what I wanted.

[A]

So beautiful about weapons, you know, it's a fairy tale for adults. Sierra, thank you very much.

[B]

You're welcome.

[A]

I want to say thank you to Adam Naiman for his work on this episode later this week. Well, we have a 25 or 25 coming.

[D]

Oh, that's right.

[A]

No spoilers on that. And then after that, we have a.

[B]

Very special La Llorona.

[A]

No, Curse of La Llorona didn't make the list.

[B]

Why is that?

[A]

We'll probably talk about it a lot when we talk about the film we chose. And then after that, we have a. A physical media extravaganza that Chris will be joining.

[D]

Right. And that I will. I'm going to send one submission. If you buy.

[A]

If you buy. If you buy 24Ks before our recording on Monday, you are invited.

[D]

I'm absolutely not going to do that.

[A]

All right, well, then you're not invited.

[D]

I need new boots. Okay, so that's my.

[A]

That is the difference between me and you right there in a nutshell.

[B]

You would rather have hand sewn moccasins and 24Ks.

[A]

Absolutely right. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. We'll see you later this week.

[C]

Adjective used to describe an individual whose.

[D]

Spirit is unyielding, unconstrained.

[A]

One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice.

[C]

An individual confident in their contradictions.

[A]

They know the rules, but behave as.

[D]

If they do not exist. New team the new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by Warner Brothers Pictures. One Battle After Another is coming to theaters September 26th. Don't miss legendary writer, director and producer my guy, Paul Thomas Anderson teaming up with Leo DiCaprio for the first time ever. Pretty exciting. They almost. They almost teamed together in Boogie Nights, actually, alongside award winning actors like Sean Penn, Teyana Taylor and Benicio Del Toro in this hilarious action packed adventure following Bob Ferguson, an ex revolutionary, on a mission to find his missing daughter and overcome the consequences of his past. One battle after another. Only in theaters September 26th. Get tickets now. Rated R. Under 17. Not admitted without parenting.