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- [00:15]
A
I'm Sean Fennesee.
- [00:16]
B
I'm Amanda Davis and this is the.
- [00:17]
A
Big Picture Conversation show about Marty Supreme. Today on the show, we are diving deep into one of the year's very best movies. The Timothee Chalamet starring ping pong period piece Marty Supreme. Later in this episode, I'll have a long, deep fantastic conversation with Josh Safke. He's the co writer, co editor and director of this magical movie. Josh has been coming on this show since we started doing this show in 2017. He was here with his brother Benny for good time. He's been on it many times since. Always one of the most engaging, intelligent, fun guests we have. He's also a die hard Knicks fan, so we really appreciate him in many ways. Things are going great for the Knicks, did you know that?
- [00:54]
B
No. You've mostly been tweeting about the Mets, so I haven't really clocked in on the Knicks.
- [01:00]
A
Yeah, Marty supreme goes from a Mets game to a Knicks game in magical ways. And we'll get into that as we talk about the film and we will do so right after this.
- [01:09]
B
This episode of the Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie there's that last minute scramble to make it all come together. From gifts to hosting essentials. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.
- [01:32]
A
Okay, Amanda, this movie was number two. It was on your top five movies of the year list.
- [01:38]
B
Dream big. Dream big. That's me writing in an orange script.
- [01:44]
A
Yes. You're just doing marketing now. You're not even. That's fine.
- [01:48]
B
I saw the movie on my own in October. Was like. That movie's dynamite. Put it on number two on my list. Having only seen it once, saw it again yesterday. This movie rules. I am amped. I am wearing a sequin shirt for this movie. It's not really sequin, it's more like shiny, metallic, shimmering. Yeah, I bought this in Paris because I too dream big. So I, this, I just. This is, I, I mean, one Battle is the movie of the year, but this is really a close second for me. I find this movie joyous and wild and electric and it made me cry the second time. And it's, you know, it is another like real meeting point for the two of us. It's just what we wanna see in the movies. But for two and a half hours yesterday, I felt young again. And I would like to thank Timothee Chalamet and Josh Safdie for that.
- [02:43]
A
Yeah, let's put some fencing around the movie. So as I said, directed by Josh, co written with Ronald Bronstein, also co edited with Ronald Bronstein, who's been one of their collaborators for a long time. It's once again shot by Darius Khondji, the legend, who's shot multiple movies this year, including Mickey 17 and Eddington. This is his third film of the year. Scores by Daniel Lopaton. We will definitely discuss that.
- [03:05]
B
Release the score. A24. What is this out on December 25th? Come on, if I'm marketing, you market too. Release the score.
- [03:14]
A
There are no tracks available at the moment. We are recording it. Movie star Timothee Chalamet, Gwyneth Paltrow, Odessa Azian, Kevin o', Leary, Tyler the creator, Tyler Oconma, Abel Ferrara and Fran Drescher. If you haven't heard of what this story is about, I'll give you a brief snapshot. Marty supreme follows the ambitious, fast talking NYC hustler Marty Mauser in 1950s New York as he navigates a chaotic life of petty crime, affairs and a secret pregnancy, all while pursuing world championship glory in table tennis. Blending real life inspiration from ping pong legend Marty Reisman with fictionalized chaos focusing on Marty's self obsession and his unconventional path to greatness. I thought we could talk. Start there.
- [03:56]
B
Yes.
- [03:59]
A
We've just recorded another podcast that isn't out yet about a film that tracks ambition and obsession. You know what I'm referring to.
- [04:08]
B
I do, yes. I had to think about it for a moment. We are at the point in the year where we need like the poster board with what city we're on.
- [04:16]
A
Like Claire Dan's is. Yeah, exactly.
- [04:18]
B
No, but just you know, like, you know when people are doing tour dates and they're like, you know, hello Omaha. But I need like what date it is just on a love actually poster board from Jack.
- [04:28]
A
We are in the midst of 12 episodes in six days. Recording schedule.
- [04:31]
B
Yes, that is a great movie about ambition and the dark side and the corrosive nature of men and America all at once.
- [04:44]
A
So this movie is also about that sort of.
- [04:46]
B
Yeah, it is, it is.
- [04:47]
A
So Marty is this lower middle class kid living in New York, a Jewish kid living in the tenements with his mom. He's in his seemingly early twenties and trying to break free. He's working in a shoe store and he's trying to pursue his dream, which is to be not just an accomplished ping pong player because you get the sense from the movie that he already is that, but to be a world famous, successful person.
- [05:10]
B
Yeah.
- [05:11]
A
A person who is acknowledged as great. And I find that historically you like rank that like wrangles you a little bit like these kinds of guys.
- [05:19]
B
Yeah.
- [05:20]
A
And I think that the movie is designed to make this guy wrangle you.
- [05:25]
B
Yeah, I guess he does. He doesn't rankle me for a second. And so you've identified this as a movie about ambition, which it certainly is. But you know, what he's trying to do is make like the outside match the inside and the rest of the world catch up with what's inside him. And this is an incredible movie about confidence to me. And I. You can't have one without the other. But there is. There's a specific nature, a specific thing about the nature of this confidence that is like only possible in the young. And this movie is really located at a, like a region time moment. The opening credits announce it to you very clearly what's about to happen. And it's not like a one crazy night movie, but it is sort of a five crazy nights movie over the course of a year before someone has to grow up. And so to me, it is delusional but recognizable confidence that I found endearing as opposed to annoying, even though this person is obviously making really stupid decisions and there are lives on the line. But in. In a. In a lighthearted everything is going to be okay sort of way. And I guess like the. The conclusion of the movie does really inform that.
- [06:50]
A
Yeah, I think both like, but not.
- [06:52]
B
Like the literal conclusion, but just that things spoiler alert and we will be spoiling Marley Supreme.
- [06:58]
A
Yes, in full.
- [06:58]
B
But broadly things work out.
- [07:01]
A
Broadly, they do. The ways in which they work out is interesting and I think say a lot. The one thing that struck me watching this movie, I've not seen this movie three times actually, is by shifting to a period piece after Uncut Gems and Good Time, which are both contemporarily set, in fact, all of their movies are contemporarily set. The Safdie Brothers. The movie is able to more easily shift into this kind of like Fantasia Dream Nightmare state. As opposed to when you're closely following the events of Howard Ratner and he's walking around modern 2019 New York City, that anxiety that you feel, that everyone felt, that everyone continues to point at and say that that is definitional about their filmmaking style, feels like an anxiety in your life. And it makes you uncomfortable in this movie. It feels like you're reading an old book about a crazy kid.
- [07:48]
B
Yeah.
- [07:49]
A
And I think that. That it changes the energy of the kind of movie that it is like, it is certainly a part of this succession of stories that Safdie has been making. And I'm not sure if, like, elevation is the right word. I'm not sure if it's, like, better than. But it is different. It does feel really unique for a variety of reasons. You know, we said it's set in the 50s, but the music cues are all from the 1980s. The score is inspired by the 1980s. And the energy of the cutting and even the lighting style of the movie feels like the 2000s. And so you have this, like, mishmash. And so bringing to the table that latter energy is Timothee Chalamet, who's a very modern star and who like the way we understand him and the confidence that you're talking about. He's marketing that right now and we've been talking about it on the show. But even before he was doing that, when. When you saw him promoting a complete unknown or when you saw him promoting Dune or Wonka or any of these movies, he was. He's doing White Boy swag. You know, like, he's doing.
- [08:53]
B
The swag is unbelievable and self contained, you know, like, and it is. I think this. The filmmaking in this movie is incredible, but you can't do it without this performance, which is someone channeling someone else and, you know, going through the world and going through a lot of different experiences and like, you know, Timothee Chalamet has had many lives before this, but to my knowledge, was not a table tennis star before this moment. So. And he's, you know, every once in a while you can see a devil, but, like, he's playing tennis and he's like ping pong. It's like very physical.
- [09:28]
A
Oh, yeah. This is a sports movie. Straight up. Yes, straight up.
- [09:32]
B
But the movie is also built around that singular Timothee Chalamet. And it is like a very new or current type of modern movie star. But there just is something impenetrably confident and poised about him that has to be seen to be believed. It's amazing.
- [09:58]
C
This episode is brought to you by McAfee. When it's game day, everything moves at full throttle. But McAfee's secure VPN is like your digital defensive line, always working to protect your info. When you're on public watch, Wi Fi, whether you're checking fantasy scores at the watch party or posting pics at the stadium. Visit mcafee.com online protection today to get award winning online protection for just 39.99 your first year. Cancel anytime terms apply.
- [10:23]
A
It doesn't have that metatextual self awareness though that I find that a lot of people have now. You know, where they're sort of like super conscious of their image. You know, their. For people in their 30s and 40s, there's a lot of like ironic shell around everything that they experience. Marty Mouser is confronting the day every day. Right. He is like ferocious in his attempts to be recognized and seen and to get what he feels he deserves, which is a very distinct. And it's pretty rare. It's pretty rare among stars. It's pretty rare in terms of performance style and it's very rare in characters. It's hard to build a movie around a character like this who at the drop of a hat will make a very abrasive holocaust joke, you know, who will very willingly.
- [11:11]
B
You know, just like the pause, the gasp that you heard and the nervous chuckle in my theater yesterday. And like people still did laugh, but that's quite a moment.
- [11:23]
A
Yeah. I was trying to think about who this character reminded me of, who this performance reminded me of a little bit. And the closest I could come is it sort of feels like a mashup between Paul Newman and Hud, who's like a real bastard in that movie.
- [11:37]
B
Yeah.
- [11:38]
A
But it's impossible to take your eyes off him. And all the women in the movie can't take their eyes off of him. And Rupert Pupkin from King of Comedy and obviously a classic New York movie and a guy who's got such a willful belief in himself and his comedy and his destiny that he will go to insane ends to accomplish it. And interestingly in both of those cases, but especially with Rupert Pupkin, when you get to the end of King of Comedy and he's doing his standup on tv, you're like, this isn't bad. It's not great, but it's not embarrassing. And Marty, similarly, he's greater than Rupert Pupkin is. But this movie is trying to show you that just because you're good at something doesn't mean it's the purpose of your life. But there's not really anything wrong with going for it either. You know, I find that takeaway to be really fascinating. You know, I read a lot of personal New York Hustler, like, you gotta absolutely kill yourself to succeed energy. Like, I feel that in all of the safdie movies, but this one especially. And so I think I'm citing Robert De Niro and Paul Newman here on purpose. I'm like, this is rare error for an actor to conjure that feeling.
- [12:43]
B
Yeah. Sitting in the movie yesterday, I had a different combo spring to mind, but mine was. It was Pacino instead of De Niro. It was like, very young Pacino from, like, that, like, coiled, like, Waiting to attack. And also just, like, very wiry and, like, extremely hot.
- [12:59]
A
Yep.
- [13:00]
B
And I.
- [13:00]
A
They look similar, for sure.
- [13:02]
B
I was just like, this is just like a small, incredibly hot man. You know, like, wiry, but so powerful. Combined with Adrock, just like a. Just like an incredibly cool Jewish New York icon. Jewish, like Brooklyn icon who, you know, can get away with saying things he shouldn't and is just like, floating on. On charm and vibes and. I mean, Adrock has always been like, a, you know, a locus point for both of us.
- [13:28]
A
He's one of our guys. Yeah, yeah, he really is one of our guys.
- [13:31]
B
He is for us. Like, the guys want to be him. Like, girls want to be with him very much.
- [13:35]
A
I'm on the record about that as.
- [13:36]
B
Well, so that's a compliment. But I think it's telling that in both of them, we're having to combine people because it is something.
- [13:46]
A
It's a big performance. It's a big performance at a time when he's been giving a lot of big performances. And I totally agree with what you said, which is the movie doesn't work if you don't have somebody at the center that can do this. Obviously, these two people, Josh and Chalamet, have been wanting to work together for a long time. Josh talked a little bit about that in our conversation, and they're a really nice meeting point as two New Yorkers, really. There's a very specific energy about the city, and the movie is attempting to capture that energy. And the style of the movie is interesting because it is quite long. It's two and a half hours, and it's very episodic. Now, Marty's mission is clear. He is trying to win the table tennis championship. And then, after losing it in the first act of the movie, avenge his loss.
- [14:29]
B
He's trying to win the British Open of table tennis.
- [14:33]
A
Yes.
- [14:33]
B
Yeah.
- [14:33]
A
And then is it not the world Championship? No, it's not.
- [14:35]
B
The opening at Wembley. And then they. The world championship is being held in Tokyo.
- [14:42]
A
Got it. And so because of that, a lot has to happen. A lot transpires between those two. These two big sports movie tent poles. And that's really what it is like the movie. Well, let's. How much do you want to talk about the individual incidents of the film?
- [15:02]
B
They are filled with so many like, you know, one or two scene performances that are so memorable. It's funny. I went to see this movie yesterday, as I said, got home, my 3 year old at the dinner table who's like learning about movies was like, hey mama, what. You know, how was your work? I said, well, I went to see a movie and he said, can you tell me what happened in it? And so then I did. And it was a very rich text. I lighted some things.
- [15:27]
A
This 25 year old banged out Gwyneth Paltrow in a shower. It's incredible.
- [15:31]
B
I think what I said was. And then he met Gwyneth Paltrow and he found a diamond necklace and there was a lot about table tennis. And then I had to explain what table tennis was. There was a dog. At one point he took a bath, you know, so I was, I was, you know, bringing it down to a three year old's level.
- [15:50]
A
There was a dog, but there.
- [15:53]
B
But you know, you could just like keep turning the pages. It was, I've seen people call it Dickens esque in a way, but there is sort of a but. You can't not acknowledge all.
- [16:04]
A
But not Dickensian, if that makes sense.
- [16:06]
B
Yes.
- [16:07]
A
You know what I mean?
- [16:07]
B
Even. Yes.
- [16:09]
A
Yeah. I think that a lot happens in the movie and even just trying to sit down, to write down all of the things that happened was challenging. I think there's a variety of reasons for that. Right. Like the cutting style in the film is very fast and hard. It's cut very specifically to the music. The onslaught of images is very intense and there are very high highs emotionally in the movie that can then like make it hard to sink back into the movie. Sometimes where you have a big, you know, table tennis showdown or you have a big romantic moment where the music swells and you've got these two characters locked in or a violent encounter or an explosion or just like a hustling moment at the, at the, at the tables in a bowling alley that makes the movie feel like a jumble, you know, like the sort of.
- [16:59]
B
Yeah, I think. Yes, I guess. Or it's, it's certainly episodic and it's certainly like things that you're, you know, checking off before you can get to the final point. But I, I just kind of feel that Marty as Timmy, Timmy Chalamet as Marty is holding it all together.
- [17:15]
A
I totally agree. I also think that with that collision of music and that style. This movie and Uncut Gems especially have a kind of like cosmic jazz feeling where you're like, was this teleported in from another planet? Like, it feels just a little bit different than most conventional movies. You know, it has a specific kind of energy. And that word anxiety keeps getting used to describe it. I'm not sure if that's the right word. I'm trying to figure out what the right word is to describe their cinema.
- [17:45]
B
Yeah.
- [17:45]
A
But it is not. It isn't like watching a complete unknown. Right. Which also has a really great Timothee Chalamet performance at the center of it. Really well made movie. Very, very good filmmaker, good performances all around. But there is a kind of like, it's unyielding.
- [18:00]
B
There are no breaks between activities.
- [18:02]
A
Yes. Okay, that's a good one.
- [18:03]
B
And I. And I'm a person who typically likes breaks between activities, but they just.
- [18:07]
A
You like a nap, you like to lay down.
- [18:09]
B
I'm one of the world's great nappers. But they. Yeah, they just keep going. They keep amping it up, you know.
- [18:18]
A
Okay, well, what are your favorite scenes in this movie? What sequences really jump out when you think back on it?
- [18:27]
B
Okay. Starting at the beginning. Well, the entrance of Odessa Zion as Rachel and that cue right into the opening credits, which are hilarious.
- [18:42]
A
And I did ask if it's an homage to look who's Talking and what did he say? Well, you'll have to listen to the interview.
- [18:49]
B
That's called being a content maker. Yeah. And the. The Forever Young music Q. And the. And the children's choir version. And it's just really, really funny. And I was laughing and, you know, the. The opening credits are an announcement of. They. They're not dissimilar to the uncut gems credits, but they're like, this is going to be, you know, different and. And weird. And also that this is a movie about there's gonna be a baby at the end of this. So.
- [19:21]
A
But I did not feel that coming at all when I watched the movie the first time. The first time I watched this movie and I watched the opening credit sequence and I was like, this is very funny. I understand completely what they're communicating. You know, Rachel and Marty are having an affair and they're having a baby together. And later when Rachel shows up in the movie and she's pregnant, you're like, oh, that's Marty's baby. You believe all those things. Yeah, but the movie's conclusion, I did not see.
- [19:45]
B
No, I didn't See that either.
- [19:47]
A
And that's like a testament to the strength of the movie. That, like, it keeps you on the rails and you don't. At least I didn't know how they were gonna put a bow on it.
- [19:54]
B
I didn't know emotionally where it was going.
- [19:56]
A
Right.
- [19:57]
B
Yeah, but, but, but. So that opening sequence, I mean, I just. It's, you know, when you're laughing and smiling up at the screen all at once, it's like a very particular you feel seen. And that kicks in for me immediately. So. All right, do you wanna do the next one?
- [20:10]
A
Yeah, I think the shoe store robbery where Lloyd is at the safe and is held at gunpoint. And then that very quickly transitions, like in a flash to going to London and finding himself in basically the barracks where they're all staying together, all the tennis, table tennis performers are staying together. And that whole sequence is moved so quickly where we get into the first matches. We get into him confronting Pico Iyer. We get into, you know, who's playing the table tennis leader, the leader of the icta, and then deciding to go into the Ritz. And then he's being interviewed at the restaurant in the Ritz. And then Gwyneth Paltrow comes in. And then we cut to him upstairs calling Gwyneth Paltrow on the phone.
- [20:55]
B
Standing on the phone drink with like an empty glass of orange juice, wearing.
- [20:59]
A
The hotel robe, sitting on the bed.
- [21:00]
B
Yeah.
- [21:01]
A
And immediately beginning all, all of those actions, all of this, all of these matches. We get introduced to Kletzki, his friend the Hungarian, who is at Auschwitz. We get introduced to Endo, the Japanese future champion. We get introduced to K. Stone, this former 1930s movie star who's now married and retired and living with a pen magnate played by Kevin o' Leary from Shark Tank. The movie is just so freaking propulsive in that moment. And there are a handful of stretches like this where lots of action happens and 10, 15, 20 minute intervals and really like, is all very, like, charming and involving and very fun.
- [21:39]
B
The Gwyneth Paltrow stuff, I think is great. And she's really, really good. But the first scene between Marty and K is on the phone. And you see Marty at the beginning on the phone, but then you're just mostly watching her react to him. But his phone voice acting is so funny. And the. The final line before she hangs up, it's just when he says that sounds boring. It's just like, okay, and hangs on the floor. She's absolutely dying. It's so, so good. But that's that's just. That's unseen. That's just.
- [22:13]
A
I said this to a friend last night too. It's. I hope that this is the friend. My husband, maybe it was. I hope. I hope this is taken in the right way. It's nice to see Gwyneth Paltrow trying. Yeah, like, yes, she becomes this character and she's extremely famous and she doesn't really act anymore. And except when she's in Marvel movies, she forgets about. And it is nice to see her engaged. And the two of them, they have like a very strong chemistry. The movie is very Oedipal. And this theme of Kay's character, who lost her son in the war and who is attracted to this young boy who would be her son's age and his, like, fierce determination. I'm sure he's attracted to her, but there's also something about like, she was a movie star and that's like a signpost in my quest to greatness.
- [22:55]
B
He doesn't know who she is until all the journalists who are interviewing him stop looking at him and look at her instead. And the camera kind of follows her walking down and then switches to him and everyone watching her.
- [23:05]
A
There's something really funny in the meta text of both, you know, not just Timothee Chalamet, the young actor attempting to become great, and we watch a movie in which his character attempts to become great, but Gwyneth Paltrow, who has spent her life kind of tolerating man boy actors in her personal life, now doing the same with the new man boy, hero, star, actor.
- [23:23]
B
You know, Kay is also a former movie star who stopped acting. And in this case it's because she married a pen salesman, which is just an incredible. Not salesman, I should say. He owns the pen company, but like, you know, what a stand in for the lead singer of Coldplay and has been doing other things and like, comes back to the. And is a little bit.
- [23:46]
A
She's making her comeback in the movie the same way Gwenis Satro is making.
- [23:48]
B
Her come back, negotiating what she was versus what she is now and what her appeal is to people, which I'm sure I, you know, I think it's cool that Gwyneth said yes to the.
- [23:56]
A
I agree. There's just a tremendous amount of cleverness in this. The same could be said for, I think, Fran Drescher, playing the Jewish mother figure in Timmy's life and who is like, nagging and who is also kind of a hustler. And you can see that he has inherited some of her mentality, the way that she, you know, lies and kvetches about when she has to go to the hospital because she's dying. And that Marty is also a person who's constantly creating these circumstances of dishonesty to get the things that he wants. And the movie has a lot of really little, like, character details that inform why the people are the way that they are throughout, that is.
- [24:27]
B
But they also. It just. It moves so fast through them, you know, so it's not. It doesn't belabor anything. It is just, like, detailed and thought through and keeps going.
- [24:37]
A
There's a. There's a benefit to seeing it a second time for this reason. Not that it's, you know, you couldn't pick up on everything, but because there is just so much information being conveyed, it's helpful. It's sort of connected to this period of the movie. I also just think the dinner at the Ritz where Kletsky and Marty are talking. And then Marty offers to buy dinner for Kay and Milton. And then Milton, played by Kevin o', Leary, comes over to the table, which then leads to this very tense exchange where we see Marty really unafraid to offend. He laughs in his face, Kevin o' Leary's face, when he reveals that his son has died in the war. And then Klutzky tells the story about the honey after while defusing bombs during World War II.
- [25:20]
B
Right. But then the honey shot flashback goes straight into Kay walking. It's like a very fluid movement from the devouring of the honey into Kay walking into Devour the honey. Yes, exactly.
- [25:34]
A
Exactly. A lot of fun little stuff like this.
- [25:37]
B
She looks great.
- [25:38]
A
Beautiful. Knocking on the royal suite. Yeah, Yeah. I will say that the first battle between Endo and Marty, one it like, there's a conventionality to the movie that's a very conventional setup for a hero character in a movie where you need to get absolutely smoked in the first act so that we can then get invested and you win. Even though Marty is, like, right on the edge of unlikable and the sore loserdom that he shows after he gets fucking waxed by Endo. And the way that he's like, once calling for a rematch immediately afterwards and him grousing about joining the Globetrotters and then eventually joining the Globetrotters, the movie is consistently forcing you and not just in that 70s movie way.
- [26:24]
B
The Seal, huh?
- [26:26]
A
Yeah, the Seal is good. It's good.
- [26:27]
B
But I mean, that's like a pretty conventional listen, you know, the red Panda of their day. Movies are good. And I didn't know about Red Panda until she came back this year. And then my entire family just sat transfix like baby toddler husband. We're just staring at the.
- [26:45]
A
It's a whole thing.
- [26:45]
B
Yeah, No, I mean, it's. It's an exciting. I know, it's incredible. It works. But there is also something conventional about the movie. Gives you enough movie candy or movie familiarity to then get real rowdy.
- [27:01]
A
Yeah, it's really funny. I mean, you'll hear a little bit from Josh about how much of this is based on real events and real stories and things that he learned over time because of that level of specificity. Like, so much of this has to be based experiences when Marty returns to America again.
- [27:17]
B
So we're just like fully just recapping all the scenes that we don't have yet. No, no, no. I know, but I just wanted to acknowledge, like, I'm with you and I did a version of this last night. But I just want to acknowledge we're just like, this is another awesome thing. And this is.
- [27:27]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think it's just like a helpful way to celebrate what I like. Cause it's revealing. It reveals the choices that are made in the filmmaking that I think are very clever. For example, like from the honey to the honey pot, like that thing. There's so much, like slickness in the writing and the editing board.
- [27:44]
B
I just. I did think that we needed to, because also I. You're. You're going through the list. But I want everyone to know that I also like these scenes. It's not just you being like, I like all of these scenes and.
- [27:56]
A
No, no, no. It's for reasons. It's for structural and character based reasons. And I think, like, the movie needs to continue to reveal character for you to continue to get invested. When they come back to America again, there's this insane stretch where he goes back home, his mother sort of half receives him. He does give her the piece of the pyramids, which is another kind of amazingly deep thing that is definitely connected to uncut gems. And this idea of sort of your origins and what you've built and where you're from and what you're worth and what your destiny is. It's a movie about destiny. Right? But then that leads to them needing to, you know, he needs to raise money, so he goes to the hotel so that he and Tyler can go play ping pong and make more money because his uncle has taken the money back that he made from his quest with the Globetrotters. That whole scene with the Old cop and his uncle Ratzo Sloman is like out of like a 1930s Laurel and Hardy movie, you know, like it's so silly and so dopey in the way that it's told. Then Abel Ferrara shows up in the hotel and he's got a dog and the dog had an accident. It smells like shit. And then they're checking to these hotel rooms, the bath falls through the ceiling.
- [29:15]
B
Very exciting.
- [29:16]
A
Crazy. Like that is the most uncut gemsy moment in the movie to me where you're just like, what the fuck just happened? And so there's just like all this crazy incident that keeps happening that eventually leads to them going to the bowling alley. I don't know if you saw Ethan Hawke's son playing one of the participants in the bowling alley sequence than a bunch of other guys with these crazy faces. There's so many different people who pop up in the movie who like maybe you've seen before or you haven't seen before. They look familiar to you. They're so distinct. Safdie's so good at casting memorable people, you know that that's a huge part of making a movie.
- [29:49]
B
And in unexpected ways. It took me to my second viewing to realize that Rachel's husband is Emory Cohen.
- [29:55]
A
It is indeed.
- [29:55]
B
And I was like, that's Emory Cohen. Yeah, I know, Being terrible in Brooklyn, that's not my Emory Cohen.
- [30:01]
A
Likewise, the guy who eventually gets April Ferrara's dog and his big white house is Penn Jillette, the famed magician who I definitely did not clock the first time I watched it because he's unrecognizable. But you know, even the idea of casting someone like Abel Ferrara, who's this famed New York filmmaker who's very well known for making these really kind of gritty New York crime dramas that have this also like a twinge of cosmic incident to them and a really like a hard bitten look at the city and the way that people are incredibly violent. And he plays an incredibly violent and brutal character in this movie and is really fascinating. I don't know what other sequences are memorable to you or that jump out.
- [30:39]
B
Somewhere in the middle of the hustling. I think it's after the bowling alley. Before the Penn Jillette house. Yes, it's after the bowling alley and it's the Tyler, the creator character and Marty are. They've made it away from their hustle and they're trying to get to a gas station and they both get out of the car and are dancing along the side of, you know, and it's one of those where it's like, ooh, like, I'm a boy with a camera. Look what I can do with the camera. But also, it's so beautiful. The. The performances are great, but I think.
- [31:15]
A
They'Re dancing to the Fat man by Fats Domino.
- [31:17]
B
Really magic. Just kind of a serendipitous moment of, like, a pure charm.
- [31:24]
A
What did you think of Tyler in the movie?
- [31:26]
B
I thought he was very funny.
- [31:27]
A
Yeah, he's pretty good. Pretty believable as his buddy, as his close friend, who also he can't trust and who will fuck him over. And all of these guys. Dion, his friend who is helping him design the ping pong balls, also gets kind of screwed. But also he's so insanely encouraging to Dion. It is that hustler thing where it's.
- [31:43]
B
Like, you did this, man.
- [31:44]
A
You did this, man. And he's talking about how to his father, about how he believes in him. And the Roadrunner energy that Marty has throughout the movie is really fascinating.
- [31:54]
B
And also the way that each of those characters relates to. To Marty, and he relates back. Like when the Tyler character drops him off back at another pool hall or a table, Ping pong hall, I don't know. And Marty's just like, I love you. I'm sorry. I'll buy you a new cab. Don't worry about it. And Tyler's like, just like, get out of my car, man. And there's like, the resignation and the. You know, Marty's full of shit. You know, they really got screwed. But there's, you know, it's gonna be okay. And, like. And I just remember that from being in your 20s and just being like, let's just not, like, talk about this anymore.
- [32:31]
A
Yep.
- [32:31]
B
Um, and then when the Rachel character and the. The ping pong ball entrepreneur, like, the second time they go to the apartment and there's the confrontation and they start yelling at each other. And Marty's like, don't talk to him like that. He's one of my favorite people on earth. Don't talk to her like that. And he's just, like, trying to manipulate the situation, keep everything on rails, and also be like, no, but I love you both. And it's just. It's incredibly funny.
- [33:00]
A
Yeah, I agree. There's a series of moments that are like that. Okay. I kind of want to jump to Japan near the end. Should we talk about Kevin o' Leary first?
- [33:17]
B
Yeah.
- [33:17]
A
Okay. So something interesting about this. So Kevin o', Leary, who, candidly, not a person I was super familiar with before this movie. I'VE seen Shark Tank. I know about Mr. Wonderful. I didn't really know about his reputation as a Canadian, as somebody who had like, said Canada should be annexed by Donald Trump. He's a very controversial guy.
- [33:34]
B
Okay, I did not know about that. We're learning about that in real time.
- [33:37]
A
In a certain sector of the Internet. This guy is like Satan.
- [33:42]
B
Okay.
- [33:43]
A
So his casting is somewhat controversial in the movie. Josh talked about this a bit in the interview. You can listen to people talk about it. He's not an actor, not a trained actor. And he is the real heavy of the movie. He is, you know, Abel Ferrara is in part one of the villains, but he is the true villain of the film. And he's like, shockingly good in the movie.
- [34:02]
B
I think he's incredible.
- [34:03]
A
His presence is really impressive. And he is up against this, you know, this whirlwind character played by one of the best young actors in Hollywood and pretty consistently is holding his own and even eating him at times in the movie.
- [34:15]
B
Yeah.
- [34:16]
A
Figuratively, if not literally. And.
- [34:19]
B
Well, literally. He's doing some other things.
- [34:20]
A
Yeah. And I was just. I was impressed. Like, I, you know, I think many people will say, I regret to inform you that Kevin o' Leary is good in this movie, but he is good in this movie.
- [34:29]
B
Yeah. I mean, his face is right for it as. And there is just. There are a lot of shots of him grinning in like a very. Just irritating shit eating, like, I have you, I'm a rich guy way. I do think. I didn't. I'm just learning about some of his political views. But I'm not surprised, you know, it matches the face. We're using that energy.
- [34:53]
A
Yeah. Well, all these things that we're talking about, this idea of casting Gwyneth and having the echoes of her real life experience, it's the same conception with someone like Kevin o' Leary putting him in this. It's the same thing with Abel Ferrar putting him in as like a menacing, dangerous New York semi gangster walking the streets. Like he's. They're using real life associations to drive emotion, which I think is very smart.
- [35:16]
B
But he is also. This is a. It's a very chatty movie. There's a lot of people talking fast to each other. It is set in New York and not everyone would be able to keep up with that. So you gotta, you know, he spits back at Marty. So when. Whenever necessary. So I guess in this one case you have to hand it to him. What are you handing to him really? That he's amazing as Someone who says he gives a good performance and has one of the great hilarious moments of this movie speech in Japan. But it is, you know, he's not the hero.
- [35:52]
A
He's definitely not the hero. Eventually, Marty is able to convince Milton in the aftermath of K's disastrous Broadway return to the stage.
- [36:06]
B
Fred Heckinger just showing up for.
- [36:08]
A
There's so many of those. We can do the entire list of people who show up for five minutes of the movie. I mean, David Batman and Fred Heckinger in that sequence.
- [36:14]
B
It's true. Also credit to Gwynneth's bad southern accent, which, you know, it's supposed to be bad.
- [36:21]
A
Hard to believe she got bad reviews for that performance. K Stone, he prostrates himself before Milton and allows him to paddle him so that he can get on his plane and eventually agrees to participate in this exhib exhibition that he's pitched earlier in the film when they have a lunch in France earlier in the movie. And he makes his way to Japan because he needs money and because he needs to get to Tokyo to participate in the tournament.
- [36:45]
B
Right, because he needs money, because he has to pay off his Ritz bill so that he is allowed to be back in the tournament.
- [36:51]
A
And so when I say that this is a great movie about being an idiot in your 20s, this is something that you do in your 20s, maybe not Jack Sanders, right? Very responsible, very thoughtful man, works very hard, keeps his head down, doesn't just fly to Japan on a whim without knowing what's really going on. But when Marty gets to Japan, he realizes pretty quickly that he's not invited to participate in the tournament. He's only there for the exhibition.
- [37:13]
B
It's his Francis Ha. What time did Puss in Boots start moment.
- [37:16]
A
Yeah, exactly. The ITTA wants nothing to do with him because of the way that he has acted throughout the film towards them. And so all he has left is this showdown with Endo. And I thought this entire stretch was just thrilling. And it's really hard, like 40 years after the peak of American sports dramas to create a sports drama scenario in which, like, I'm really invested and I really want to know what happens and I really want to see this character win. But how? The ways in which he might win and unsure. You know, I've had a couple people tell me that they thought that the CGI and the ping pong stuff didn't work for them. I really didn't feel that. I felt like it.
- [37:57]
B
Oh, I didn't notice at all.
- [37:58]
A
You know, I didn't feel like I Was like, this is definitely what's happening. Like, they're playing this exact match. You know, I didn't feel as though there wasn't computer assistance in the execution of it, but it didn't take me out of any of the sport of it.
- [38:08]
B
I agree. You know, as I mentioned, I think there are a couple times where you can see that it's not Tim. But if you're looking closely, and for the most part, it's filmed energetically and the crowd and the spectators are used very well, it communicates what's happening in the match pretty clearly without much dialogue. And then, I mean, I cried twice in this movie. And the first time is when is after the second match. And Timmy's reaction to the second match. And I like, cried into pure, you know, someone finally wins their gold medal.
- [38:45]
A
Sort of exaltation. A League of Their Own style.
- [38:48]
B
Damn the bobsled across, you know, in whatever sort of way I was very moved by. And like, Timmy's reaction, like, when he finally hits, is beautiful.
- [39:01]
A
It is. And it's like. It is kind of like corn pone, American drama stuff, you know, it's not. The movie is very stylized, very funny, very abrasive, very intense.
- [39:10]
B
Right.
- [39:11]
A
But this is a pretty conventional, what feels like a closing segment. Now, it is preceded, as you said, by a fascinating moment in the movie where Milton gets up out of his seat where he's watching the exhibition that he is paying for for his pen company in an effort to sell more pens in Japan. In the aftermath of World War II, where the travel ban has been lifted and American business is coming back into Japan, people Japanese can travel back to the United States. And he sees that Marty, after throwing one match and demanding a rematch to make it real, is actually has a chance to. To beat Endo. And that this would really damage this Rockwell pen company's fortunes. During this exhibition, he goes backstage and. You wrote down what he said. He goes backstage and he confronts Marty. And what does he say?
- [39:56]
B
He says, let me explain to you. I was born in 1601. I'm a vampire. I've been around forever. And there's some other stuff. And then he ends with, you'll never be happy. You will never be happy. And there's no context, no explanation. He just makes that speech. And then Marty goes back out and wins the damn match.
- [40:21]
A
Now, there's layers to this specifically. I talked with Josh about this a little bit. I do know a little bit more about it. But the non sequitur, like, allegorical, metaphorical power of, like, this guy manifesting himself into Satan, into the immortality of capitalism, power, class.
- [40:43]
B
Yeah.
- [40:43]
A
You know how someone like Marty will never be able to pull himself up and become what he truly wants to be. That feeling that people feel when they're going for something and they fail.
- [40:52]
B
Right.
- [40:53]
A
And they're like, when am I ever going to be able to be who I want to be?
- [40:56]
B
Right.
- [40:56]
A
And letting someone literalize it, it is jarring. In the movie, there is like a gasp. Weirdness to. I'm a vampire. I was born in 1601.
- [41:04]
B
Yeah. But in. Put in like an amaze chuckle. At least for me, it's weird. But I was just like, okay, you're just. You're going for it.
- [41:15]
A
Yes.
- [41:15]
B
And in it, you know, there is a moment of being like, wait, is he serious? You know, not, is he serious? But what's going on here?
- [41:22]
A
What does this mean?
- [41:23]
B
And by the end of this speech, you understand that it's like a. A ver. Like a. A strange, provoking illustration of that thing of, like, of Marty's running up against something he's always going to be running up against something he is never going to quite crack through. And it's because there's this guy who's a vampire who was born in 1601. You know, it's like we are not quite literalizing the evil, but we're stating it.
- [41:53]
A
Yes. Close to. He does succeed. He does hitch a ride home on a GIS plane. And when he gets home, he goes straight to the hospital. Right. Because he learns that Rachel's in.
- [42:04]
B
He has gone to Japan straight from the hospital.
- [42:06]
A
Right, Right. Because he's left Rachel there after their showdown at Penn Jillette's house, which is a very exciting and intense shootout, by the way, and some of the best practical filmmaking that I think Safdie has done in the past. And when they get to the hospital, he races in and sees that people are waiting because Rachel has given birth. He races to go see Rachel. He grabs her by the hand. He says, like, I'll never leave your side.
- [42:34]
B
I don't know specifically what you're saying. He's like, go back to sleep. I'm saying, like, I'll be here. I'm not going anywhere. I love you.
- [42:39]
A
And then he goes to meet his son and I. If you don't have a kid, this maybe doesn't make as much sense emotionally. But if you have a kid, and Josh talked about this too, the moment that you meet your kid for the first time is an absolute steamroller. It is like. It is the most everything is different now. Thing that at least has happened to me and the movie knows that. And this is very much a movie about everything that happened to me in my life. Not me personally, but the me of the movie until this happened and how everything after that will be different. And when he meets his son and he locks eyes with his son who's crying and is unhappy.
- [43:20]
B
Well, I mean, the beautiful thing about it is that is that moment that you're saying, but it is still also staged with the SAFY sense of humor and flare. And so it's. This is the 1950s. So they're all in a nursery, which is just means like they're all on a sealed wall and it's rows of babies just crying. And God bless the, like the. The nurse in the nursery who's just like sitting at her desk ignoring like 15 babies crying.
- [43:46]
A
Yes.
- [43:47]
B
And you know, she brings the baby over and the rest of the babies are crying throughout.
- [43:53]
A
And then.
- [43:54]
B
And I mean, Timmy's unbelievable in this scene and he just is overcome with emotion immediately. And you know, as we saw in Call Me by youy Name, any movie that just ends on Timmy Chalamet like crying into a screen, like, it feels.
- [44:12]
A
Like a callback to that in some ways.
- [44:13]
B
He is one of the few guys that can do it and he really does it and he communicates that moment of transition of just. And like, of growing up kind of. Which to me, in a lot of ways is what this. This movie is about 100% and. But so he's. He's doing all the emotion. But then like, they do give the baby a close up of just looking at Marty, like, what's wrong with you? It's really. And it's like a longer close up. Great baby acting.
- [44:45]
A
It is great baby acting. Yeah.
- [44:47]
B
And the music cue is Everybody Wants to Rule the World, which hits immediately and, you know, is in keeping with the rest of the the 80s score. But like, you and I both know what the first line of that song is like 10 seconds before it's playing. So then I was crying again. It's wonderful. It's incredibly. I was moved by how sweet it is.
- [45:09]
A
I totally agree. Welcome to the world welcome to your.
- [45:14]
B
Life I thought welcome to your life.
- [45:18]
A
There'S no turning back. Which is incredibly powerful and kind of funny and very sincere.
- [45:26]
B
And it goes on for a long time.
- [45:27]
D
Yeah.
- [45:28]
A
You know, very heartful. In a movie that is like often a bit bitter and a bit fast, the movie stops.
- [45:36]
D
Yeah.
- [45:36]
A
And I. I am annoyed that they're using this song in the marketing for this movie. I don't know why you would make this incredible needle drop. And the same goes for Forever Young in the first trailer, where I'm like, these are two sledgehammer needle drops that are so smart. And there's a couple of other really good ones. There's a New Order one, a Peter Gabriel one. There's a Public Image Limited one, all 80s songs that give the film a really interesting character. And one of the readings that I have read of the movie is that the way that we're seeing the movie is we're seeing Marty tell the story of his life to his son as he's grown up in the 1980s, in a way. So he's almost, like, using the energy of that time to communicate that story. There's something else in the kind of the writing of the script that supports that, but I don't really want to talk about that. It's not helpful for this conversation. So I really love that. Those specific decisions. I wish that those songs were held back because I saw the movie before I saw any of the marketing.
- [46:35]
B
Yes.
- [46:35]
A
And when that needle drop hit, I was just like, oh, just hit me really, really hard. And for the exact reason that you said. When you hear those words to that song, you see the look on his face and you hear the baby screaming, and then you cut to the credits and you can still hear the baby screaming, which is also kind of what life is like after that happens.
- [46:51]
B
It's really, really. The baby screaming is one of the great sound decisions in this.
- [46:55]
A
It's really clever.
- [46:57]
B
Yeah. I just. It's lovely.
- [47:00]
A
It's wonderful.
- [47:01]
B
You know, the first time that I saw it, you and I talked a little bit about, like, we really. We loved it. We, like, instantly loved it. But it's. It has a lot in common with uncut gems. You know, they're like, of a cloth, both energetically, and they are about guys having to jump a lot of hurdles to try to get to something.
- [47:26]
A
Yeah.
- [47:26]
B
And one has a happy ending, and one has a less happy ending. And I think the first time I saw it, we talked about it, and I was like, well, I guess it's, like, a little softer. And, like, maybe I respect uncut gems more for, like, going for the. For the jugular, for, like, telling the truth. And we're obviously marks for this. We have young children. But I left the second viewing of Marty supreme being like, wow, this is like your heart cracks open in a beautiful way at the end of it.
- [47:56]
A
So funny. I feel like just like One battle after another. We had the flip experience, though, where you saw it one way the first time and then differently the other time. And I was flipped where the first time I was super emotional about Marty Stream. And then the second time I was like, this movie is so funny. It can support me.
- [48:11]
B
Really, really funny. Like, I was laughing, like, throughout. But. Yeah, but there is a warrant to it. It's not quite a companion piece to one battle after another, but they are very much in conversation. And I think that there is an open heartedness to both of them that I find very moving. I, you know, it's like, I think it's great that dads love being dads. I like. I mean, I mean that genuinely. I'm just like, this is really sweet.
- [48:39]
A
Big cultural change.
- [48:40]
B
Yeah.
- [48:40]
A
You guys figured that out 20, 25.
- [48:42]
B
And it's really. It's nice.
- [48:44]
A
Yeah.
- [48:44]
B
You know, it warms my heart.
- [48:46]
A
Yeah, it is nice. Yeah. Do you think this movie is going to be a success?
- [48:53]
B
I have absolutely no idea.
- [48:55]
A
I don't either.
- [48:55]
B
I really hope so. They are trying very hard. Timmy is trying very hard. I mean, what is success, Right?
- [49:03]
A
Can it make $100 million domestically?
- [49:06]
B
I don't think so.
- [49:08]
A
Okay. Can it make $75 million domestically?
- [49:13]
B
I have no idea. I don't think so. Maybe it can make 50.
- [49:17]
A
Okay. Think it will play overseas?
- [49:21]
B
I hope so.
- [49:22]
A
You know, one thing that's really allegedly.
- [49:26]
B
Set in various locations around the world.
- [49:30]
A
So I'm curious for Jack's point of view on this. A complete unknown made $75 million in the U.S. $65 million overseas. Made $140 million. Timothee Chalamet obviously worked hard to promote that film. I would say he's working harder to promote Marty Superman. Yeah.
- [49:45]
B
Because he knows what's on the line.
- [49:46]
A
He's making more appearances. We've talked before about how this is a real test of his star power. It is a movie that I think is in the. You know, Josh is kind of. He's a little younger than we are, but not much.
- [49:59]
B
Yeah.
- [50:01]
A
And it does hit a bullseye for people in their 30s, 40s and 50s looking back on a period in their lives.
- [50:08]
B
Yeah.
- [50:09]
A
And I'm wondering how. And Jack, I know this wasn't your favorite movie of all time. Do you think people in their 20s will click with this movie? I think so. I know a lot of people who have already seen it closer to my age who liked it more than me. I'm a little nervous about the Chalamet stuff, the promotion. I think he's starting to push people a little over the edge, which has me a little bit nervous. But I think it can connect. 100 million domestic, I'd say very unlikely. There was something, I think that came out today in Deadline that like Marty supreme broke the record for most pre sales or something like that. For whatever it's worth, I think it. There's good energy and I think young people will show up. How much? I have reservations.
- [50:57]
B
I met some very kind listeners of the podcast yesterday at my. At my first screening.
- [51:04]
A
Okay. Burbank.
- [51:06]
B
I was at the Burbank 16. And I would. What up four young men of Jack's age. You know, I don't mean to my radar for how old people are. You're all, you know, 25 to me, and I'm rooting for all of you. But they seemed younger than me and they seemed more in like the Timmy demo than the parent demo. And they all seemed to like it.
- [51:30]
A
Okay.
- [51:30]
B
One young man was just like, that was amazing. I'm gobsmacked. And then the others, I just.
- [51:34]
A
It's very funny to hear you say young man.
- [51:35]
B
Yeah, well, he said, well, they all introduced themselves. They were very polite. And then the others, I just like gave them a thumbs up as I left and they thumbs up back. So I think that means they liked it. Yeah.
- [51:49]
A
There's only two films this year that are original that have cracked $100 million domestically. Do you know what they're. You probably figure out off the top of your head.
- [51:59]
B
Can I. Okay. I'm thinking hard. Just regretting you count?
- [52:05]
A
No, it's not over 100 million. Where is regretting you? That's a good question. Probably gonna be more like 50, 49.
- [52:12]
B
Okay. So sinners and One Battle after another.
- [52:15]
A
Sinners, One Battle after Another did not.
- [52:16]
B
Crack 100 in domestic.
- [52:18]
A
71 domestic. It's like it's a 140 international.
- [52:22]
B
Okay. All right.
- [52:24]
A
And to get the other one, I guess there's two more technically. But one of them I don't really think of as original weapons. Weapons is the other one. And then the other one I was thinking of is F1, which is. It's very much hinging on a brand. So that would be a real challenge. Getting to 70, I think is a W because that means in theory you're getting to 70 internationally. I don't know if it's not. The future of movies is not riding on this, but the future of a certain kind of movie is riding on this in some ways.
- [52:50]
B
And a 24 really splashed out for this.
- [52:52]
A
They Did.
- [52:53]
B
And they have had bigger ambitions this year that have been, you know, stops and starts.
- [53:00]
A
Stymied.
- [53:01]
B
Yeah. So this, this would be good.
- [53:03]
A
This is their big movie.
- [53:04]
B
Yeah.
- [53:07]
A
Box office theory has the tracking 36 to 57. That's low to high domestic. If you had to guess, if we, if we split the difference and set the line at 45, if we're putting our town caps on, I think 50 would be fine. If they're. If it's 36. That's rough. Yeah, that's rough. You don't want to be at 36. It's Christmas. And there's also not a lot out for adults like this in the world. You know, there, there's.
- [53:35]
B
Yeah.
- [53:37]
A
You know, especially because a couple movies we're going to talk about in an episode that's. We're recording right after this is like, I don't think those movies are really going to hit for grownups, so. But 36 would be rough. That means you're opening at like 16 and then limping over six weeks to that number. I don't know. That would, that would not be good.
- [53:54]
B
I'm, I'm hopeful also that there will be a word of mouth, that there will be a, you know, he's, he has been wisely targeting people who are not typically, you know, a 24 movie bros, like the. Just the Kardashian Jenners have just really been in the mix and that's. I think that's, that's great for them.
- [54:17]
A
And he was doing the London tour and going on a bunch of the popular BBC shows doing, you know, wrestling podcasts.
- [54:23]
B
Like he's Susan Boyle getting a job that shout out so much.
- [54:27]
A
That was really fun.
- [54:28]
B
He's the one true poster. I just. Marty Hauser absolutely would have destroyed my life if I were 25.
- [54:35]
A
Yes, I believe that.
- [54:37]
B
But it was almost invigorating to feel that again. This is a powerful movie.
- [54:43]
A
Yeah. I think we've not talked about Odessa ASEAN too much, but she was on my first screening was the, the real surprise of the movie. I was familiar with her, but I don't know if I really had a relationship with her as an actress. And she is in a tough spot because that's usually a pretty thankless role. The girlfriend who's hanging on by a thread with her crazy boyfriend in a movie. And she gets to play a lot. She gets to have a kind of hustler moment herself. That is really a really funny moment. And she goes toe to toe with Chalamet really well. She's now weirdly, maybe not weirdly, maybe smartly because of I love LA and because of the Internet has just become like much more well known over the course of the last three months. But in the run up to this when I first saw it, I didn't really know very much about her at all other than being Pamela Hadlan's daughter and didn't even know that appearing in a couple of movies and TV shows.
- [55:30]
C
This episode is brought to you by CarMax. When you buy a car with CarMax, you call the shots. You want to test drive every car in the lot. Want to shop while you watch the game? Want to match your car color to your sports team, Want to shop online, in store or both? It's your move every step of the way and support from their helpful no pressure associates is there whenever you need Want to drive CarMax? Shop now@carmax.com this episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You'll find everything you need for the holidays at Whole Foods Market. If you're entertaining, explore limited time seasonal desserts like the holiday rum cake and much more. For the main event, serve show stopping centerpiece mains like bone in spiral cut ham and their bone in rib roast, succulent and special. They've even got great gifts like seasonal candles from 365 brand at everyday low prices. In a hurry. Skip the crowds and order online for pickup and delivery and select zip codes. Shop for everything you need at a Whole Foods Market, your holiday headquarters.
- [56:30]
A
Oh what fun. Holiday invites are arriving and Nordstrom has your party fits covered. You'll find head to toe looks for every occasion including styles under a hundred, dresses, sets, heels and accessories from Bardot, Princess Polly, Dolce Vita, Naked wardrobe coach and more. Free styling help, free shipping and quick order pickup. Make it easy in stores or online. It's time to go shopping at Nordstrom. Speaking of awards, yes, now we've been putting the movie in the top five for best picture. Feel pretty comfortable that it's making best picture. Certainly comfortable that Timothee Chalamet will be nominated. It feels like it will be a pretty tight race with Leo, maybe with some Wagner Mora spoiler potential coming in there. Although Ethan Hawke also having a hell of a month recently. Unreal Press Tour Odessa Asian I think it would take a lot for her to get in. I do think that she's ahead of Gwyneth.
- [57:27]
B
I do as well.
- [57:27]
A
Yeah. Even though Gwyneth is quite good in the film.
- [57:29]
B
Yeah, Gwyneth didn't even get a Golden Globe nomination which is surprising.
- [57:33]
A
She did not. The directing is going to be tough for Josh.
- [57:39]
B
I think so too. Which is sad.
- [57:40]
A
It's going to be really challenging because you've got Paul Thomas Anderson, Chloe Zhao, Guillermo del Toro, Jafar Panahi. You've got Joachim Trier in there. You've got Archie Wook in there. You've got all of a sudden Oliver Lasch from Seurat in there. You know, you've got all these folks who are contending for these spots. There's others I'm forgetting, I'm sure. So directing is going to be tough. Score has to happen. I'm getting. But I love Johnny Greenwood's scores for Paul Thomas Anderson's films. I will always be interested in what they're doing together. That isn't my favorite of Greenwood scores for his films. Probably There Will Be Blood, maybe the Master as my two faves. But what Daniel Lo Patton does in the movie is unreal. Amazing. And the way that it is working with the film. And he has scored all the most recent Saffy Brothers movies and he's the creator of this Vaporwave subgenre. And as one of Tricks Point Never. He has a long recording history. But there is definitely an elevation of style for him where it's, you know, a lot of woodwinds and flutes and the choir that you mentioned and the musical touches that brighten the sequences in the movie are really powerful. And I will be stumping for him.
- [59:04]
B
Essential. And I mean, you know, the score voters are on notice after last year and after the omission of challengers.
- [59:14]
A
Not ideal.
- [59:15]
B
So we can't screw this up twice.
- [59:18]
A
I agree with you.
- [59:19]
B
Okay. I'm just letting everybody know.
- [59:22]
A
Original screenplay.
- [59:23]
B
I hope so.
- [59:24]
A
Is it original? It's an original. Right? Because it is based on some materials and you know, Marty Reisman's life and Marty supreme category.
- [59:34]
B
I would guess so. But it's not. I think it's probably debatable. And it's what they want to go in. Let's see what's in adapted this year.
- [59:53]
A
One battle.
- [59:53]
B
Right. So you probably don't want to go against that.
- [59:57]
A
Wouldn't be ideal. The other one that I wanted to mention is casting.
- [60:04]
B
I mean this seems like a great.
- [60:07]
A
Just to go through the list very quickly of folks who pop up who are not the stars of the movie. So you've got Isaac Mizrahi as Merle Gwyneth Paltrow's publicist. You've got NBA legend George Gervin as Lawrence, the guy who runs the ping pong hall. You've got Ted Williams, who is the viral. The man with the golden voice. Dude. As Ted, the guy who works at the pool hall or at the ping pong hall. Penn Jillette, we mentioned as Hoff, the owner of the White House. Larry Ratzo Sloman, legendary kind of writer, rock and roll gadfly figure is Marty's uncle Murray. You've got Pico Iyer, the author as Ram Sethi, who is the head of the Itta. David Mamet as the director of the play.
- [60:49]
B
It's really funny.
- [60:50]
A
Fred Hechinger is the star of the play. Troy perfectly named Levon Hawke. Ethan Hawke and Uma Thurman's son as one of the kids in the bowling alley. Philippe Petit, the man on wire.
- [61:03]
B
Yeah.
- [61:04]
A
As the Brussels mc. I mean, these are just a few of them. Tracy McGrady and Kemba Walker are there as Harlem Globetrotters.
- [61:11]
B
That's right.
- [61:12]
A
New Yorker writer Nomi Fry appears in the film as a woman helping to stage manage the play. She's great. I saw Nomi at the after party for the premiere of this film and I was like, what the fuck, dude? So you know, to me, like, this is the. This is the art of casting. The art of casting is not let's find the most famous person in the world and put them in the movie. It is. How do we populate our film with unforgettable mini performances and faces and characters.
- [61:39]
B
Right. Well, this movie does both because it does have Timothee Chalamet.
- [61:42]
A
Yes.
- [61:42]
B
And Gwyneth Paltrow animating the entire spirit of the movie. But.
- [61:46]
A
Yes, but Kevin o' Leary and Tyler, the creator and people like that and saying, like, what if this person was an actor? That's one of their superpowers. You know, it's What?
- [61:55]
B
You know, PTA's films are also very good at that. So you have to assume one battle will also be in that category.
- [62:01]
A
Sinners will be up there. There's a handful that'll be up there. Any closing thoughts about the film?
- [62:06]
B
Absolutely. Loved it.
- [62:08]
A
I did too. If you want to learn more about it, listen to my conversation right now with Josh Safdie. Josh Safi is back on the show. It's been six years. Six. Well, I did see you for a Criterion episode during lockdown over Zoom. Okay.
- [62:26]
D
It's not the same.
- [62:27]
A
That wasn't the same.
- [62:28]
D
Yeah.
- [62:28]
A
It's been six years.
- [62:29]
D
We can share saliva particles.
- [62:30]
A
Yes. Well, thank God for that. I'm so excited. Hopefully healthily though, you have been traveling the world, so who knows?
- [62:37]
D
I have a three Three and a half year old and a four, five month old, four month old. And my wife bought me like seven sprays. And she goes, you do this one in the middle of the day, you do this one at the end of.
- [62:47]
A
The day, you do this one at.
- [62:47]
D
The beginning of the day. And I'm like, so I have them and I.
- [62:51]
A
Are they working?
- [62:52]
D
I use them.
- [62:53]
A
Okay. It's a psychological thing. As long as you feel like you're getting something helping you. So six years we've talked a little bit, but I don't really know what you've been doing.
- [63:03]
D
I don't really.
- [63:04]
A
I mean, I know this movie, but it's a stretch. Like, can you maybe before we talk about Marty, talk about life after uncut Gems.
- [63:14]
D
How did it change? Well, it's relevant. You know, I, I was, you know, I have these notebooks, right, that I, that I keep that most people probably keep in journals. You can call them journals, except you wouldn't really know. You might think that they're biographies because there's a different person at the center of, you know, long stretches of pages. Like my books that I kept over the course of Gems was very bizarre. It'll be very bizarre to my children when I go and they start to look through them. I probably should burn them. But she, you know, I have, because I'm experiencing my life through the characters of the, you know, I'm using them as vessels and obfuscating things. So I, after the 10 year journey of Gems, which had a lot of detours, but they were all in service of one dream that was my purpose. To wake up every morning and try to see this thing through that no one believed in. Oh, I'll give you $300,000 with this actor. I don't want to work with that actor. Oh, I don't really know if you know how to do genre, blah, blah, blah. Make a good time to, to learn how to do that. It was my reason to wake up. And when I finished it, which kind of coincided with me discovering the world of Marty supreme and these like, outcasts and these misfits who had this dream that no one believed in. I finished the movie and like, Pandemic's about to hit and doing like, you know, a Q and A, the Last of the, you know, the Mohicans, and, and someone casually asked the most innocent question, what's next? Which is like, okay, you know, I would never ask that question because I know how disrespectful that is to all the work. It's like okay, great. Next. What do you got? And it's, it's, you know, but it destroyed me. I cried. I was like super embarrassed. I was like covering my face and I was like, let Benny answer that one. And I just couldn't, couldn't really understand where that feeling, that hollow feeling was coming from. Because here's this thing that I willed into the. The world doesn't want movies to exist. And I just, I didn't, didn't know what was next.
- [65:18]
A
You don't have like a lineup sheet of like, I got five movies I know I want to make. Because some filmmakers are like that, of.
- [65:26]
D
Course, but they're not real. You know what I mean? I mean, not, of course. That's actually not, you know, when I finish a project and Ronnie and I were talking about this the other day as writers, when we finish project, like there's no gas left in the tank. We put everything almost to the point where like, did we. Is there anything else to pull from life? And, And Covid was weird because your experience with life is. Becomes very, you know, limited and confined to your house, which obviously there's lots going on in the house, but you can't go out and just go into the real world and do research or live in a different way. But, you know, no, I mean, I didn't, I didn't really. I didn't have an idea of. It wasn't. It's not like I think of like the concept of like an idea.
- [66:11]
A
It's not.
- [66:12]
D
It's like there's. It's a little like kind of pejorative to the film itself because they're not. Ideas are very strange, mercurial things. Like, where do they come from? Well, they have some meaning. I start to learn about them later when you're watching a movie. And you know, that's what makes ideas in any art so great to mine and look at and kind of study, because they're more just an attraction to something and like a world and a character. But yeah, I didn't have an idea of what I wanted to do. I didn't have a feeling. I didn't have a world. There was this world that was interesting to me, this table tennis world, this post war kind of moment with these young people who are, you know, not. Did not fight in the war and these outsiders and misfits as I was discussing. But I, you know, this guy bought me a bottle of champagne and a cigar after I finished Uncut Gems and he's like, you know, it was a long journey here you Go like, let's drink this champagne and smoke the cigar. And I. And I didn't. I just put the champagne in the fridge and I put the cigar in my drawer that will be there till the day I die. Because it'll never be worth anything worth really celebrating because you get to the end of these journeys, these dream you and the only thing you think is like, wow, it was really lonely experience. Even though I dream with other people, it's just so that was kind of my life. And then I finished the movie and Pandemic hits and I'm turning around, looking around the people who like believed in me. And my. The closest one was my now became my. She became my wife months later, we went to city hall, got married, had my first daughter soon after that and had my second daughter recently. And life just all of a sudden time started to move in a very different way. Time is the enemy. But you still start to be like, wow, you're seeing the personification of time in this kid who's getting older and developing. And then her experience with her own emotions is actually starting to inform my feelings with the world and the work later.
- [68:21]
A
It's funny that you say that because literally the second thing I wrote down here was. So you're 34 when you're making uncut gems. Yeah. Marty has the same energy as a movie, but it's about a much younger character. But it's a much more mature movie. I. I found. Do. Do you think of it that way?
- [68:37]
D
I do.
- [68:38]
A
And it feels like a I had a kid movie. It feels like I have a different perspective on the world.
- [68:45]
D
Yeah. You know, I think the movie's about change and about happiness and the haunted that how haunted of a feeling happiness is and how it haunts us all the time and how the past and the past can haunt the future and the future can haunt the past. But I do that feeling of meeting my child. Everyone who has a kid can say this and is a very profound moment and you can't prepare yourself for it. There's no way to know what you'll feel or think. And it's a cosmic moment and you realize it's not about you at all. It's never really been about you. And everybody you've ever met was born and we've all been born. And you know, that was an incredibly powerful moment. Weirdly, the idea the ending was always kind of there without spoiling. That's really spoiling. The credit sequence tells you what's going on. We know where we're going exactly but that was something that was. I always kind of saw, but I saw it abstractly. And then when I experienced that, you know, firsthand, it was. Yeah, it's. It's ineffable, you know, and it's no way to really. You're looking at the future, but again, through the lens of your own past. Thinking about, you know, I think the movie is kind of a little bit about what. That when you. The feeling you have when you look at a picture of your folk before you were born, like, what was going on there? I thought I was the center of their universe, but where was I? I wasn't there. My dad always told me growing up that I came from the stars. And that was always, like, made me feel like I was present in his life before, you know, when you look up at the stars, you're dreaming. And, you know, I see this movie and I do have that sense of this ghostly quality. There's a ghostly quality to it.
- [70:43]
A
Well, okay, so I know that your wife handed you a book that is.
- [70:47]
D
Like, the origin of the end of Uncut Gems. Like, towards the end, she bunked jams. What was the book towards the. During production, she was at, like, a thrift store and she saw a dime store book that said Confessions of a Table Tennis Champion and Hustler. So she was the end hustler. She knew I loved table tennis. She knew my uncle played, you know, in the older days, which was always unique. Even people don't think about table tennis as having a past or a history. I remember when. When the players came onto the set, the Wembley set, one player was, like, emotional. I said, why so emotional? He goes dignifying the sport. Look at this arena full of people. And the. The barriers are made of wood. Wood's expensive. The floor is wood. And people don't. History is dignifying. That's why we have to all need to know history and understand it. It's. It teaches us where we are now.
- [71:40]
A
Did your uncle play in that kind of environment?
- [71:42]
D
My uncle played at Lawrence's.
- [71:44]
A
Wow.
- [71:44]
D
He knew all these guys. He knew. The author of that book was a guy named Martin Reisman, Marty Reisman. And what that book did is it opened me, Opened my eyes to this group of people in New York, these guys from the Lower east side who had no place to sleep on Wednesday, but you'd find them in a palatial hotel in Budapest on. On Saturday. And they were like this X class. And they had a very specific vision for themselves. And yet they were total jokers. But they Were all super intellects, autodidacts and complete. Like you have the beats 40 blocks south. They had their dreams. There was glory. There were museums for their dreams or publishers. There's no, there's no, well, pun intended. There's no real arena for the destination of the dreams of these guys. And, and that element of the book and also the historical, the footnote of. A footnote of history element from that book was interesting to me. When I talked to my uncle Johnny, I was like, you played with Tiki Miles, didn't. He's like, tiki Miles, who was the best. He used to come over for Shabbat dinner and then they would clear the table and they'd put books and they would play ping pong on the table afterwards. He's like, I went to Lawrence's. George Gervin plays Lawrence. Lawrence's was the first black owned business in the Times Square district. That's historical. That's historical. The, the, you know, he told me that when you would show up there, it felt like an orphanage. It was like, who are all these people? What's going on here? Everyone's betting money. They're all super serious, but also incredible jokers who will bet about who could throw a peach higher on the street and like they'll go down and they'll find a mark and everyone will come and steal all the person's money. But they're like guys who could, you know, describe relativity to you.
- [73:28]
A
Yeah.
- [73:29]
D
And there would be gangsters. Like there was these holes above table number six and they were the bullet holes from an attempt on Legs Diamond's life. But there was like six balls and they all missed. And so it became Lucky table number six. And it was a speakeasy for legs. So there's this interesting history there. And when I started to hear him talk to me about the footnote quality of at least Lawrence's. And then I see, you know, in Tim there's. And I obviously used to get into this world. And then there's a 10 volume set by Tim Boggan, who wrote the history of table tennis. And there's a lot of great stories in there as well that are inspiring. You start to discover, you know, the story of Aloshi Ehrlich who survived the Holocaust. And that honeybee story is true story. I mean it's, it's gonna ask it a little bit.
- [74:19]
A
How much are you pulling from like, I guess an established but not canonized history of a sport that like we don't really have a, a meaningful relationship to in 2020. 5.
- [74:28]
D
I mean, they didn't really then either. I mean, you have these fanzines. Basically, the Japanese were interesting because they did come out of isolation, and it was a very interesting moment in time in Japan. 52 is when the war really ended, is when America started to leave, which is when the movie takes place, which is when their travel ban lifted and they started to go out. And the first thing they did was table tennis and they invented a paddle. And I tried to squeeze this into the film. I even shot a fake interview with the inventor of the paddle. The paddle was called the Atomic Paddle. I mean, you can't write this stuff. You can't. And. And it was. It was. It changed the game, changes the 1/2 wood, 1/2 the sponge. Yeah. Like that changed the sport. It made it. You could argue it. A lot of people argued it destroyed the sport because it made it less entertaining because the move too quick and the points went from being potentially hour long to being three, four seconds. That's. We're getting into the minutiae of the sport, which obviously you do get in when you, when you do the research. But. But the. That moment in Japan, like when you start to do the research and you start to think about that being the background of the story, and you just think about telling a story about individuals inside of it, and it's. It becomes. The foreground is a. Isn't. Is a personal, emotional experience. It becomes. It became exciting to me because again, because when you read about what was going on in Japan, we wrote the Constitution there, and they introduced the American dream, more or less individual, rugged individualism. The emperor is just a real guy. Anyone can be a hero now. You have this folk hero. A million people waited for the real guy. And we wrote into that fake newsreel that we did that. A million people were waiting. People laughed when they read that because no one could believe it. So we had to lower it because it was. Just didn't want people to laugh at that because it was very serious. And all of a sudden you have this explosion of folk heroes, this explosion of literacy.
- [76:18]
A
And.
- [76:19]
D
And you have. And then I. You know, one of the things that I loved in the research was the. The American. Obviously the Globetrotters went through there too. The Globetrotters was also fascinating to read about as another footnote of history. There's a theory that they were American propaganda. They were being sent around the world, being bankrolled by the US Government to show, you know, to combat. You know, this is the social. The war became, you know, the Cold War, you know, communism, socialism versus capitalism. And the propaganda war was, you know, look at how race. Look at how black people are being treated in America now. Okay, well, we have these, you know, America's thing. Well, we have these incredible athletes. You know, let's show the world how. How they're treated royally. Something kind of strange about that. And Marty is hip to that. To that. And. And you know, that, you know, seeing where there was a great. Interesting diary written about by the manager, not Saperstein, but another guy. And obviously it's like an insider thing, so it's not gonna get into the nitty gritty, but it is fascinating. They had. Table tennis was a halftime show for, you know, because in Europe days were there were a lot of great players and it was fun. It was a novelty.
- [77:32]
A
Yeah.
- [77:33]
D
But if you're. You're devote your life to something and trying to convince everybody that's the most serious thing and respectable. You don't. These guys, you feel bad for them. They're here doing parlor tricks.
- [77:44]
A
It's funny I said this to your brother when I last saw him, but I think that Lenny Cook is really like the originating agent of so much of these films because this idea of the chosen one and the person who believes in himself above all, who is competitive, maybe not an athlete, but competitive. And I see this recurring. And it's crazy in Marty the idea of someone who is. Insists. Is so sure that there is no other path.
- [78:11]
D
Interesting thing about Lenny Cook, which was very. Which makes it kind of like a bottomless well, is he didn't see himself.
- [78:23]
A
As the chosen one, but that was imposed upon him.
- [78:25]
D
Imposed upon him. And that was ultimately, I think the Achilles heel for him is that there was. He had this thing, but didn't care about it. Marty has this thing, but nobody cares about it. And he is the chosen one. But. But it doesn't.
- [78:43]
A
That.
- [78:43]
D
And 250.
- [78:44]
A
You.
- [78:45]
D
You know, gets you on the subway. You know, like, that's not so it's. It is. I mean, look, the. The allegorical quality of Lenny Cook is. Is, you know, obviously very inspiring and like feel like you're doing a profile of a. A Greek God. There is that quality, the fable like quality and mythic quality to athletes.
- [79:05]
A
Yeah. I think I was thinking specifically of this, like, intellectual dynamic of making it or not making it.
- [79:09]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [79:09]
A
And that. That is like the defining confrontation of like, frankly, a lot of men. You know, it's like, did I. Did I do what I set out to do or did I not do what I set out to do. Your movies are very, very much.
- [79:20]
D
Impermanence.
- [79:21]
A
Yes.
- [79:22]
D
Impermanence. Like having a place on planet Earth.
- [79:25]
A
Yes. You care about it.
- [79:27]
D
Yeah. I mean, the George Stevens film Place in the sun is so powerful for me. It was one of the films here that was spiritually inspiring, you know, and Cliff Montgomery's, you know, place in between these two women and wanting one thing and then but emotionally feeling pulled towards another and ultimately just wanting a little place to call home. Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz. The book more than the movie. But the movie's great too, you know, and, and. And fate too, like Lenny Cook's fate was not to be an athlete. I love the guy, but he. His fate was not that this is. And what is fate? And I think that the movie Marty is very much interested in. In fate. You know, I think mar. I think, you know, you see the film, hopefully people see this after they've seen the film. But, you know, he's fathering a dream. And that dream that he's fathering the egg is the ball. And he doesn't realize that that dream, it was all the fate. His attempt. His dream, which is basically a heist on fate. His dream is an attempt to control fate. It's what they are. And it ends up becoming. He ends up exactly where he was railing against. But he does it in a much more earned way. And it was the journey that kind of helped him realize that and earn it.
- [80:48]
A
It. One of the great things that happens in movies is sometimes the external realities of the people who are making the movies dovetails perfectly with the theme of the movie. So Timothee Chalamet is literally on the record as saying he's in pursuit of greatness.
- [81:01]
D
Yeah, he did that like about. He's funny. He FaceTimed me at the SAG Awards. And then they were like, next up, Best Actor. And I was like, dude, you gotta go. He turned it off. And then I just watched him give this speech and I, you know, he was like, I think we filmed. Our last day of shooting was 23 hour shoot day, 46 days of shooting. And he kept pushing his flight. He's pushing his flight. And he left. We shot him falling through. Falling in the bathtub.
- [81:27]
A
No one amazing.
- [81:28]
D
Don't want to spoil that. But he's in the bathtub. We shot that one piece of that. And within seven hours of him doing that, he was entering the college in Minnesota to. I forgot what Dylan song they were playing. So he was. Was still Marty when I. When he finally came and he left Dylan. He was still Dylan for the very beginning of our conversations. I heard it in his voice, so, and which was not totally wrong for Marty, obviously. I wanted him to become the character, but he, he was. I, you know, one of the things we discussed early on was ambition and dreams and what does it mean to you have this supreme vision of yourself. And when I met him, I met him before. Call me by your name. I met him about three and a half months before I saw it. And he was introduced to me through, you know, I was at the Good Time premiere and an agent came up to me said, oh, I want to introduce you to the next superstar. It's the worst when you hear that.
- [82:27]
A
Yeah.
- [82:28]
D
You know, it's like you can just, you can just see the, you know, the, the dreaming big of the agent, you know, and, and because I, I, I, I can find a superstar, I can stumble across a superstar anywhere.
- [82:42]
A
That's your superpower, though. That's a whole other.
- [82:45]
D
I, I'm just inspired by people and people who are entirely themselves iconic. Iconic is what makes someone a star. And that has nothing to do with, you know, being in public or whatnot. But I meet this kid and he's on the edge of the room and he's somebody. His eyes were wide and couldn't stand still. And I had the sense that he was there, but he wasn't where he wanted to be. And he had this really intense vision of himself and he was saying it without even opening up his mouth, which is what you want in a casting decision. You want someone to be the person without speaking. And, you know, we exchanged numbers. Then I went to go see him. Call me our names. Incredible performance, you know, because comes through. You can see it through the screen and out of the screen. It's just like there's a three dimensionality there that feels larger than life. I think Timmy's a great. His acting style is larger than life. Realism and that's. And he. Iconic. He has iconic expressions. And you know, I think Tom Cruise is really was. And when he was younger in particular was very good at that as well.
- [83:50]
A
You're not wondering what they're thinking. They can tell you what they're thinking.
- [83:53]
D
By looking at them in micro. In like a. They're large, but it's large, but it's also incredibly nuanced. So it's very unique. It's incredibly unique.
- [84:02]
A
But I remember, so I remember him. He fell.
- [84:04]
D
I don't do. Were you at that New York Film Festival screening?
- [84:07]
A
Yes, I was.
- [84:08]
D
Remember, he was Couldn't stop moving, and he fell back in his chair. And every single person in that room, the way he treated it was like you were his guest. So, like, you were kind of embarrassed for him, but he was kind of, like, winking at you about it, and it was so charming. So this seriousness was also totally usurped by his jokey quality. And I loved that about him. It was totally the character.
- [84:31]
A
It's funny, though. My recollection of this was that he was almost like, publicly courting you because there was definitely an issue in nbr.
- [84:38]
D
Were you at the National Board of Reunion?
- [84:39]
A
I wasn't there, but I know that there was one conversation where he was just like, when's my Safdie brothers movie happening? Basically, So I don't know what the. You know, is this just a long exchange where you're like, we're gonna do this eventually?
- [84:51]
D
I wanted to, you know, I said, you know, I was super fascinated by him and his drive, his ambition, and I. You know, the New York of him, I could relate to him. And I, you know, we just stayed in touch. And when I stumbled into this world, you know, you flip through these books and you see these pictures of these, like, wiry guys who are, you know, intense. They're intense people because they're the. There's a thread of humiliation at every moment that their dream does not come true. Because it's such a silly dream, like being the world's greatest ping pong. The word ping pong is offensive. It's unfortunate. You know, even when I got into it, I was like, well, what was the first you do? Research. You're like, well, it was created in India. It was invented in India by these. By British people who were, you know, bored. They took a cork, a champagne. Champagne bottle, cork. Carved it into a ball, put the books, and they used books to hit it back and forth. And I think it was called, like, plik Plok or something like that. And then it became table tennis. And then ping pong just kind of caught, I think, for commercial reasons. You know, it became a silly name for a thing that they could get people to buy. And I think actually maybe, like, spall. I don't. I think it is. It was a commercial, like Q tips. You know what I mean? Like, Q tips are cotton swabs, but we call them Q tips, right? So it's unfortunate because it's an expression that you often assume associate more with chaos. Oh, I went to this event. I was ping ponging this and the other. Most people don't Play ping pong. They never thought about it as a real thing. It's a basement sport. Most.
- [86:28]
A
If you say table tennis to someone, they say, you mean ping pong? Like, they won't even acknowledge it. Tennis.
- [86:32]
D
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And it's people who play, they say ping pong because they know that's what you. How you'll relate to it. But they also know it's like Anthony Edwards, you know, at the Olympics, and he's like, ping pong. I'm like, you know, I can beat you. And people spend their entire lives mastering this sport. No different than the way he was with basketball. These guys, they can't get one point off of these. Off of these athletes. And. But they're going back. He's going back to his, you know, incredible career. It's paying him hundreds of millions of dollars, and they're going back to a day job.
- [87:04]
A
Yeah.
- [87:04]
D
You know, and it's. It's very different there, but they're both in pursuit of. Of greatness. So I think Timmy, you know, and Timmy was. Is an athlete, and he's, you know, and he sees himself as. He wants to be the best version of himself, and the best version himself should be the best version of any self. And he has that in him, and that passion and that seriousness is perfect. Was perfect for the character. And, you know, I saw it in the way he prepared for the table tennis scenes. I saw it in the way they prepared for every scene. This is a lot of dialogue in this movie, and I wanted him to say it as fast as he possibly could. Yvonne Lucas, my color, color, colorist, who's one of the great colorists who just retired. He started his career with Darius on Delicatessen.
- [87:50]
A
Wow.
- [87:50]
D
And then he finished his career with Darius and Delicatessen. I think he. I think he got Tarantino to do a di. I think he was the first person to convince him to do a digital intermediate. Anyway, he's a legendary guy, and he watches the movie, and English is great. He's been working in Hollywood for all these years. It's like, josh, I love the movie, but I have to be honest with you, I'm. I couldn't follow what Timmy was saying because he was speaking so quickly, and he's like, so I'm gonna watch it again. And that was great for me to hear because I would, you know, jack Timmy up on coffee, and he would, you know, some of the scenes, he's saying them so quickly.
- [88:22]
A
Yes.
- [88:22]
D
I love it. It's precision. That's very. It's you know, Marty's a very precise person.
- [88:27]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think that's something that is. I wanted to ask you about, which is that the movie is simultaneously really propulsive, but also picaresque.
- [88:35]
D
Interesting. Yeah.
- [88:35]
A
And that's an unusual blend. Usually a picaresque, very episodic. You're bouncing around. You're moving into new environments all the time. We're always with this rogue at the center, but it takes its time.
- [88:48]
D
Yeah, I'm happy to hear you say that, because it is. It's like Ronnie and I, when we're cutting. We are. We're not. It's not fastly cut. It's cut. It has. There's patience to it. You know, certain scenes, obviously, they're very hectic, and the speed picks up, it slows down, but it ebbs and flows. I, you know, said earlier, you know, the dreams are heists on fate. That's a heist film. It's just, you know, it's an abstract heist film. And I think that that's what's, you know, that's kind of speaking to what your feeling is watching the film.
- [89:18]
A
So I saw it a second time last night, and I was thinking. I was like, focusing on the editing style, like what you were doing. And I don't. I'm not trained in this at all. But just from a total layman's perspective, it feels like you make these very specific strategic moves that it's like we're going to cut into a hard music cue or we're not going to cut. When we're going to cut when the camera is still moving. Like, we're going to make choice. Like, are these things that you and Ronnie are like, these are our strategies. How do you decide how to create the energy?
- [89:46]
D
I love that you noticed it because there's, you know, I was talking about big feelings earlier there. I get a big feeling sometimes from a cut that you can't describe. Just was like, you know, the feeling of this guy's life constantly being in motion and never being able to really settle sometimes, you know. That was kind of an early ethos with the film and the editing. Something I discussed with Ronnie very early on is. Is the feeling of. Of not Of. Of kind of falling into something and falling out of it. And scenes do like. I mean, there's one in particular I'm thinking of, and now tell me if you remember. It is when he's coming back from New York and he's there, and you have this moment that breathes a little bit, and you're seeing through the. Through the. The glass when the period. I go nuts with the period stuff.
- [90:32]
A
So you see across his mom's apartment.
- [90:34]
D
Yes, exactly. His apartment, too. And. But when he comes in, just when you think you're gonna actually get to see a moment with him, it drops out, and it's. Now you're falling into the next scene. And, you know, I think that, you know, in the music cues, you know, the music is a second screenplay in the movie, the needle drops or the score itself. So that's just present coming in and out of his life. Marty's one of these guys who comes in and out of your life, but it's like, when he's there, he's present right away.
- [91:02]
A
Well, tell me about the. Working with Daniel Lopatin. So you guys have made three movies together. I think this is the best thing maybe he's ever done in his whole career. The music is unbelievable, but is he reading the script? Is he on set? Is he.
- [91:17]
D
He was on set for half, like, two hours.
- [91:19]
A
What's he looking at to know what to do? Because it feels so tailored to not just a long stretch of the film, but literally individual moments feel like they have. Like, he's made choices, and you made choices to make it work.
- [91:33]
D
Yeah. Dan, you know, the beauty of. Of collaborating with your closest friends is that there's a dial, there's a dialogue there that's much deeper than. Than the movie. That's just for me. And I think it creates a shorthand that allows, you know, Dan and all of my collaborators to. To, you know, work a little bit more immediately or be a little bit more inspired. Hopefully. Dan read the script. His reaction was very. Dan. Dan's a very deep thinker, very patient with his thought. He likes. He's Jungian in everything he looks at. And he's. You know, he invented vaporwave, the movement. So he's kind of like one of the kings of hauntology. And, you know, something that we discussed early on, when I said I wanted to do a period piece of. The very idea of doing a period piece is postmodern. So then the beginning of postmodernity is the 80s. And my instinct originally, when I first watched this footage from 1940s and I decided to set it, I was like, I'm gonna listen to the energy of these players. I'm gonna put. I have the Touch by Peter Gabriel. And when I put it on, it just kind of worked. There was a feeling of that these people were ahead of their time in a weird way, that there Was a. There was a modernity to seeing them against a different time period. And then I start to. To ask myself, why. Why did. I was attracted to the 80s? And you start to read up on it and you realize, like, wow, this is the first time culture was eating its own tail. 80s were doing the 50s. Back to the Future is literally doing it. It's during the 80s and they go back to the 50s. You're seeing it in fashion, you're seeing it in music. Rock and roll is coming to being in the 50s. And you're taking blues music, sad expressions of dark. Of sad had souls putting a beat to it. So all of a sudden it's propulsive. In the 80s you're doing this new wave movement. That's melancholic music, but it's dance music almost. So there's. There was a lot of interesting parallels between the two, you know, and Reagan resurrecting the American dream. 50s were coming out of victory. The 80s are coming out of defeat. You're trying to chase the opulence again. And, you know, you start to, you know, Dan and I start to talk about the music and we talk about Marty. And very early version of the script, it, you know, at the very end of the credits, you saw Marty in the 80s. He's watching a Tears for Fear concert. It was a very, very.
- [93:51]
A
I've heard about this.
- [93:52]
D
And he's there and he's.
- [93:55]
A
I won't spoil what I've heard about it.
- [93:56]
D
And he's listening. Oh, yes.
- [93:58]
A
Yeah.
- [93:58]
D
There was one little line that even the studio is like, hold on. What is this a mistake? This one little sentence at the very, very end. But it wasn't a mistake. And actually it was one of those ideas that's so bad that it could be good.
- [94:10]
A
But we. You will talk about it, I'm sure at some point. I believe in it. That's what I'll tell you.
- [94:15]
D
Oh, I 100. I mean, without, you know, I think corporate colonialists and that beginning of like passive colonialism too. There's a lot of people like that. There are a lot of. Without spoiling it. There were a lot of ghoulish people.
- [94:28]
A
Yes. We're feeling it to this very day. This literal very day in America, completely.
- [94:32]
D
I think, you know, I think we're feeling the 80s, 80s again. Very much so.
- [94:35]
B
This.
- [94:35]
D
Even the idea of Dream Big Arcade.
- [94:37]
A
Campaign, that was something I did want to ask you about. So obviously it's set in the 50s and it feels like the 80s and. Or at least it sounds like the 80s. And do you see that the spirit of the movie is meant to be contemporary? You know, not just the energy, but that, like, it is a. Also a 2025 movie?
- [94:53]
D
Yes. I mean, I was. Something that I discussed with the actors is, you know, do not feel tethered to quote unquote, period. Don't study how people. Tyler did it. And then Tyler, I gave him an index of slang. It's like this incredible 200 page book of. Of just in New York, in Harlem. And he was like, you want me to know this stuff? And even I said, no, no, no. I want you to see the way language is being used. You're a Wordsworth. Your genius come up with your own. He came in first day, Sun Dodger as a slur to a white person was the greatest thing in the world. I was like, where'd you get that? He's like, well, I was reading all this stuff and it just popped into my head. He had a couple of them. Not all of them made it in.
- [95:31]
A
But there's something incredibly modern about him, regardless.
- [95:33]
D
Like, it doesn't feel like he's on something entirely timeless. Incredibly timeless. Like, I was one of the first things that Tyler was one of the. Was the second person I wanted to put in the movie after Timmy, because, you know, I. I got. I had them together and I saw them together and they just felt like friends from, you know, another era.
- [95:49]
A
Yeah, there's something very easy about them together.
- [95:51]
D
Exactly. And they're electric together. And I. And Tyler's, you know, he's just total vertical artist. There's no difference between him designing a hat and releasing a Grammy winning album or doing this performance. Everything has the same approach from the ground up. He thinks about these things from the ground up. And that's the beauty of working with. He's also a director. He's made great music videos. I met him. I discovered him through the Yonkers video, and then he directed it. He was directing it under an alias.
- [96:23]
A
I was writing about him back then.
- [96:24]
D
Man, that was a moment.
- [96:26]
A
Yeah, it was great.
- [96:26]
D
That was a moment.
- [96:28]
A
It didn't turn out the way I thought it would. It's been great for him. Oh, yeah, it's been great for him.
- [96:32]
D
Odd future. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Frank too.
- [96:35]
A
But yeah, no, they've done well. Yeah, Earl is fine.
- [96:37]
D
Yeah, they're all doing well. Incredible artists. But. But I just. So. So I. I told. I told all the actors, don't worry about that. If you're ever becoming too anachronistic, I'll tell you and we'll work it out. Or if I. If takes amazing, I can edit it out. I didn't want them to feel inhibited by being nostalgic. It wasn't. Nostalgia exists only in hindsight, so I wanted them to be present. And I love the feeling of the movie because I have the beauty of having Jack Fisk, the greatest production designer, who's literally a time traveler. And he said to me he was producing a documentary for me. I have Miyako Belizzi, who's also been obsessed with this period. And she wanted to earnestly enter the period not through fashion, and understand character. I had Darius Khondji, who was trying to light using the color temperatures of the time. K. Giorgio, my hair, makeup, Kira and Mike. But K, I gave her carte blanche. I cast with her and Todd and Jen, every single extra in the movie. There's like 3,500, 3,700 extras. Because every face had to be perfect and not anachronistic. I've watched some period films where someone, a random face will pop up and say, I'm not in the world anymore. I'm taken out. Garbage does that for me. And all these, my collaborators all knew that. And I wanted everything to be perfect so that I could give the actors the freedom to feel, you know, like they were there and be, you know, slightly modern about it. Because I, you know, when you. When I was meeting and talking to people who were either in that world or. Or you start to go into other worlds and just start to talk to people about life in general in the 50s and late 40s, they're talking to you and you're hearing the stories. And when you're hearing the stories, a good orator, you're present, you're just listening to them. Emotions are timeless. Life has obviously changed and we have a whole new feeling. There's new nuances to anxiety now because of social media and the connectivity between everybody. But back then, there was such an earnest connectivity amongst everyone in the world because of the war. Not everyone in the world, but the modern world war.
- [98:47]
A
We all went through something together. Exactly.
- [98:49]
D
Now I remember I had a teacher once said, like, who here thinks the Internet's going to unite everybody? Everyone raised their hand. He just started laughing at us. Looking back on in the moment, I said this guy was, you know, he's talking about the Internet. You're so idealistic and democratic and you think. And then you look now like, whoa. So. So different.
- [99:06]
A
Yeah, it's a rabbit hole machine.
- [99:08]
D
Oh, yeah. But going and but going. Going back to. To Dan in terms of the. The hauntological quality of the film. And I had originally written that Marty is at a concert, a Tears Rivera concert at the end. And he's with his son and his granddaughter, the son who you obviously meet. And he is looking at the band and thinking about the lyrics of the song, which is weirdly, the song is actually about the Cold War. But I don't like to think of it that way. It's about anxiety and control. Everybody wants to rule the world. To be specific about it.
- [99:47]
A
It is one of the. The way it's used in the film as now is one of the most like thunderclap emotional needle drops that I've heard in so long.
- [99:56]
D
The first lyric is powerful, unreal.
- [99:58]
A
And then it makes. It truly makes the movie.
- [100:01]
D
The first word of the movie is change. Divorced, Recut. And that was cool, is that you get to. These artists allowed us to recut their. Their music. So you just hear that, the mallets right from change. And then you just hear change and then you're in the movie and you drop out. So it's just like, Marty, Marty, Marty, Marty, you're in the world.
- [100:18]
A
It also gives it that almost hip hop style, like modern quality of like there's just something recombinant going on in this movie that is a period piece that shouldn't have a moment like that, but does that anyway.
- [100:29]
D
All of that stuff Ben was saying yesterday. So what I was. So the idea there is that the movie is a kind of reflection of the past from a present which happens to have been the 80s. So that the whole time you feel like there is a mythic quality to what you're seeing, that there is this. This guy is literally from the future and he's back there and he's revisiting his past. And you're supposed to take lesson from that. It feels like there's a legend happening. And Dan and I discussed early on, do we sidle up alongside these needle drops which were written into the script, or do we also. Or do we do a period score? And then we started to look at post war music which, you know, Steve Reich and, and things like. And artists like that. And you know, he, you know, and you start to go in that direction for a little bit. This is before production begins. Then during production, I start, I say to Dan, I was like, what if we Echo Jam was one of his first kind of seminal pieces of music which kind of spawned Vaporwave. I was like, what if we Echo Jam the whole score we take these 80s needle drops and you mess with that. That sounds cool. Most times, like conceptual things. It's hard to really land the plane there. So it didn't work. And then we landed in this place. Which I think you're responding to with his work in this, is that there's a lot of. There's 30 string orchestra in Czechoslovakia. There's 60 voices in Vienna. There's flautus that we had. There's a lot of flutes, a lot of mallets in this movie. And Mallets, he said, is like ping pong ball, stick. And then the beginning, all those 80s needle drops are all synthetic mallets and those big drums, you know. And so that was interesting to start to try to think about organic instruments, real people and the synthetic versions of them. And combining the two.
- [102:15]
A
Yeah, it's all like. Feels like literal time signatures too, where ping pong is a series of ticking and talking and ticking. And so you are moving in time with the movie. Anyway, it's a really brilliant choice. You did mention your interest in the iconography of people. And the casting is so fascinating. Again, I think actually a one upping of uncut gems. Not just because you have major stars and folks like Gwyneth in the movie, but she's amazing in the film, so great. Odessa, also incredible. And having a very bleeding heart right.
- [102:45]
D
Now, as she deserves.
- [102:46]
A
Yeah. But all the other people, I think.
- [102:52]
D
It was 135 speaking parts.
- [102:54]
A
Okay, talk to me about Kevin O' Leary and Abel Ferrara and the duality of your heavies and why you chose them.
- [103:02]
D
So Abel was. The part was written for him. When you cast somebody, you are bringing their entire history with them. And that's true of movie stars. When you cast, you know, Brad Pitt, who's an amazing actor, when you cast him, you're bringing all of Brad Pitt's movies to the movies on a subconscious level. People, when they see his name on the poster, they think of every movie that they love him in. And, you know, the, you know, I believe movies are portraits of the souls of the people that you're in. And you want to work with those actors to use the characters as vessels to kind of express themselves inside of it. And, you know, which is kind of the basis of like the. This acting exercise, Meisner effect, where you're just like saying the same thing, but you're bringing your soul to it. Kind of don't hate me if you're an actor and say that you have no idea what you're talking about because I'm a End of the day, I'm. I'm. Whatever. So. So Abel was somebody, you know, who I knew and I put in one of my earlier films. But he was not sober when I worked with him the first time. It was a crazy experience.
- [104:07]
A
I was curious about how it worked out working with him.
- [104:10]
D
Well, now he's sober and he's a totally different person. He came in a video store I worked at briefly and he, you know, took money from the register. He. He doesn't care about talking.
- [104:20]
A
This.
- [104:21]
D
His book is amazing, by the way.
- [104:22]
A
That's it.
- [104:23]
D
Scene is amazing. So if you read that, you know, I'm not. I'm not violating him.
- [104:29]
A
And he's a complicated dude who's been very troubled over the years. He's made like 15 incredible movies. Really.
- [104:34]
D
I mean, the Funeral is an incredible period of time.
- [104:38]
A
Why is it not available to a great DVD of it?
- [104:40]
D
I know it's a great. And Chris Pen is so good in that movie. That scene when he's dancing and singing is one of these things that I chase in my movie is that's chasing happiness. It's a pure moment. It's a big feeling moment. He's so good. What is tragedy to have lost him so early? He's so good in the film anyway. Abel is a street poet. And all of the films that he's made. Now some people see the movie, they don't even know who Abel Ferrar is, you know, like. Which is crazy to me, but that's have to. That's a harsh reality. And. But it's in his soul. It's in his DNA. You don't make those films if it's not. And when you see him immediately on screen, and he's hilarious too, and he's. You know, you immediately feel this guy might not be up to some so much. He might not be up to good. You know, like, we had early, early drafts of the movie. The able character, Ezra Mishkin. And there was a character who we were casting, we was going to try to cast Don King in. And he was about. Was a Feud of the Lottery fe New York. This is like so early. This is like 2020. Okay. And it's good because then this becomes backstory. And it's like where that bag of money is from. And this allows Abel to know. And I sent Abel his backstory. He was like, okay, He. He really. That meant a lot to him. Everyone gets a backstory. And the dog. He hates dogs in real life. He's petrified of them. So that was hard for him. But so when, when he shows up on, on screen, you know, you feel, I think you feel all of his movies and you feel his, you know, you feel his past, you feel the Bronx, you know, you feel the guy who's living near Union Square trying to raise money and working in pornography, trying to just make. Get his dream to make a real film, working with gangsters and, and you know, you just. So when he steps on screen, it's the way he looks, it's the way he talks, it's the way he moves. Abel has a signature way he moves. There's a great, great cinema of our times piece on him, video doc on him. And he's amazing. You can just. I can watch him forever. But when I worked with him on Daddy Long Legs, it was crazy. Every between takes he had two beers on inside of both jackets. In between takes he'd want to go and he'd pound the beer and then he would go over here and then he'd disappear and then he'd come back. When we got him, he, he wanted the money up front. This is a no budget movie. Giving him money, you know, $150 and you know, he's, you know, and. But he was, he loved movies and he, he appreciated that I wanted to do this thing. He watched my first film and. But he was, it was, he was completely blind to himself. I think that was part of the addiction was wanting to disappear from himself. And oftentimes that makes for great acting because someone is not self conscious. Here he was sober and he was. So. He was a totally different guy. In the beginning. It was like, wow, I have a work with a whole new person. But I had. What's. I. We WhatsApp with each other all the time. So I. And he's a Buddhist and, and he's very peaceful and he's a father and you know, so. But working with him, he. And I've heard from actors who worked with me, he's the greatest director's actor, actors director.
- [107:46]
A
I mean, you can see that in many people getting their best performances in his movies.
- [107:50]
D
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know what his best film is. His most existential film, King of New.
- [107:58]
A
York is probably his best. Yeah, I mean, I miss 45.
- [108:01]
D
Yeah, miss 45 is amazing. I mean, they're all great. I really think they all have something to do. I even bought him. And I bond over Body Snatchers because it's really good.
- [108:10]
A
So hard.
- [108:11]
D
But just the, the journey of making that movie is so hard is a. I Think it was the last official. Now there's more. Was the Last official, quote, CinemaScope Hollywood film for a long time.
- [108:21]
A
Interesting.
- [108:21]
D
I remember seeing him, and he's the best at Q and A. And he did a Q and A with. He asked me to do a Q and A with me and Benny. Do Q and A with him once at moma. And I knew. I've seen him throw these moderators under the bus. It's like, I'm gonna just be a mark. I don't want to do that. He's like, no, no, no, don't worry. I'm not gonna do that. Because he was traveling in from. And it was for King of New York. This guy threw me under the bus so quickly, totally ridiculing me on stage. At one point, I think Julian Schnabel stood up. He goes, let the man fucking talk. Not about me, about Abel. And I wasn't even talking anyway. So Abel. Abel, you know, you write for him and you just know he's a director. So he's gonna bring. He's gonna. He's gonna always be patient with you. And he's gonna be somebody you can always confide in. You know, like, this is where I want to go with the scene. And he loved the words. He loved the page. He loved the script. And he was so committed. He was as committed as Timmy and, you know, sometimes more. So I would be like, wow, this guy's in the corner for a long time. He's running through these things.
- [109:18]
A
Things.
- [109:19]
D
The dog he became. Had a slight relationship with the dog. This guy was petrified of dogs. Tyler, too. Tyler's allergic. So I have. I cast these people who can't be around dogs. So you have these scenes where they have to be able, in particular, has to love the dog. So he was. He was great to have again because he's bringing an entire history to the part. The Milton character was tricky because he was, you know, obviously he's the antagonist in the movie, you know, but he had, up until a certain point, he doesn't do. He's the bad guy, but he doesn't do anything bad.
- [109:52]
A
Yeah.
- [109:52]
D
Which is a hard thing to do because he's bad in the eyes of your main character. Even though he doesn't do. He's not a bad guy by any other definition. And he.
- [110:01]
A
And if played differently, you might not even read him that way all the way up until the end. But the actor that you chose reads instantly bad immediately.
- [110:09]
D
Exactly. So I interviewed some politicians, I interviewed other. You know, I interviewed some Actors I met with entertainers in general. And then, you know, I read with a couple, and I realized there was just something missing. There was that. That DNA was missing. So I was like, we need a corporate colonialist hardcore businessman who just ident is the American dream. So you start to think about entertaining. You should first start thinking about businessmen. So you, like, look at the Forbes list and you're like, okay, maybe the face this interview is. You watch interviews. Interesting. I don't know. And then you're like, well, can we look at entertainment? So then I started to think. You know, I once wrote Mark Cuban a really long email to get him to pay for Lenny Cook. We'll see if he would put money. And his response was, no, thank you. It was. The producer was like. The producer of that movie wrote this log thing. His response was no, thanks, which was amazing.
- [111:01]
A
He responded.
- [111:03]
D
So I was thinking of Shark Tank, and I said to Ronnie, you know, because we write with people in mind, I was like, what about Shark tank? He goes, Mr. Wonderful. Immediately he said, Mr.
- [111:11]
A
Wonderful.
- [111:11]
D
Ronnie loves Shark Tank. He's always calm. He's like, watch this episode. We'll watch them together.
- [111:15]
A
And Mr.
- [111:15]
D
Wonderful is the star of that show. You know, Cuban's no longer on it. Cuban was always kind of the most famous person on the show, but Wonderful is the star. He sits center for a reason, because he is an asshole, and he is an iconic asshole. And he's. He has timing. He knows how to be an entertaining asshole, but it's also entirely sincere. He's also. When I got to know him, he's an artist. He started out as an artist. He edits his own material. He has his own studio where he shoots. When we shot in Japan, I saw him, I went up to the rooftop bar, and he's at the bar, sitting there with glass of wine, and he has his laptop out and he has his Leica camera, and he's editing photos that he took on the street that day.
- [111:59]
A
Day.
- [112:00]
B
Mr.
- [112:00]
D
Wonderful just sitting at the bar, just like, zoomed in on an image and, like, photo touching it. And it was so revealing. At the end of the day, he's just this. This man was. He's passionate. He's very passionate.
- [112:11]
A
And probably meticulous as a performer then, too.
- [112:14]
D
Oh, my God, very much so. I mean, I. It was a lot of takes we. He. He gave him. He was very generous with me in that, you know, first and foremost, he didn't have to do this movie at all. And when I met with him, I. I had to pitch Him. And I straight up thought I was unshar. It felt like Shark Tank. I'm here, I'm pitching him. This guy, my dream. This. Which is actually a business. It's a business.
- [112:34]
A
Movies are a business.
- [112:35]
D
And he's looking at me. His. He's going in with a no. But he's a curious person, so he's going to hear me out. And I didn't want my thought he was going to for those reasons. I'm out. But he didn't always hear, I'm going to make you. I'm going to make you an offer. So. So. So when he was into it, he loved uncut gems, which was very helpful because he saw the vision. Then I, you know, you go and you. You meet with him and you start to tailor the. The. The movie to him. And again, he is the character before he opens his mouth. And you want that with every single casting decision. And some of those people are public people, and some of those people aren't, obviously, the people who aren't. It's a different experience as a viewer because you're seeing the person you're judging, as everybody does. You're like, what kind of person is this? Who are they talking to me? What are they wearing? How do they. They talk? And, you know, he's. He happens to be, you know, public. So you have that. You. You kind of inherit that. But with people, with first timers, it's almost. It's a luxury because the audience gets to discover who they are in real time and they have a very intimate relationship with them because of that. Because there's no. There's no. They're on the same level, you know, with someone who's public figure. They're. They're above. You're looking up at them in many ways.
- [113:47]
A
It's funny. I mean, and I'm sure you knew this going in. But the reactions to him in particular are fascinating because what you hear the most from people who've seen it is I regret to inform you that Kevin o' Leary is amazing and supreme, but.
- [113:58]
D
That is because he's an iconic asshole.
- [114:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, he's an iconic. But you got that out of him, too, that you got him to go to the place where you were like, this is an undeniably critical character and one of the best performances in the movie. And he's not an actor.
- [114:12]
D
No, he's a performer, though.
- [114:13]
A
He's a performer. He's a performer. But you do this over and over again, though. Like, you find, yeah, don't do this.
- [114:18]
D
What what to me. I was texting with him the other day, and I was proofing the teching the 70 millimeter print. And I'm in the final scene, and there's his final shot. You know, if you go back and. Or maybe you can remember it, it's. It's very complicated. The performance he's doing is very complicated. And that was. Shooting in Japan was incredibly hectic. I had very small amount of days. I had. Lots of Japanese extras were on location. It was much colder than it was supposed to be. And Kevin was very generous again, with his time to come to Japan. And he knows the. We shot it at the end. We knew we were going to edit a bunch. We didn't really get to edit much, but then we were going to go to Japan. So he had the whole movie cached in his brain and something that we talked a lot about. His backstory is fascinating and very fun to read. How he became the pen magnet. Stole it from someone in Argentina. He stole the patent of the ballpoint pen. Made $4 million worth of sales at Gimbels in New York in the first week.
- [115:14]
A
Week.
- [115:14]
D
And then he gets super upset that the pen wars begin. And BIC is created in France and Japan. They're bootlegging him left and right because a soldier brought it there. And then Pilot comes about, and then Japan. Now Japan owns the Japan, and France own the pen game. So he was fascinated in the economics of his business. So here he is in Japan as a carpetbagger, as a colonial, corporate colonialist. And it's very misguided because he's. He's avenging his son kind of. He thinks he is, but Marty's kind of showing that to him and rubbing his face in it a little bit. And he's also. The movie's about control. Very much so about control. And in that moment, he has no control. And the way he internalized all those feelings and thoughts, I was in awe of it. And I was texting him. I said, kevin, I don't even know how you did this, because it's. You give. I give a lot of space. Sometimes with takes, you know, for actors, and particularly with the Japan section at the end, I would do these long set takes where you let. And Timmy and Koto plays Endo. They were so good. And my Diego scoff, who's my choreographer for table tennis. He was a. Did Forrest Gump. He's like, they're never gonna be able to learn multiple points in a row. Get that out of your head, Josh. I was like, oh, man, how am I gonna get the nuances of the motions between the points? And Timmy and Koto just started. They wouldn't even. They would just go into it.
- [116:36]
A
You're shooting in wide for long stretches.
- [116:38]
D
And they would just go into the next point. So what I would do is. And I would have. I would have another camera on Kevin throughout the plane so I could see him in real time. And when you let points play and you let the emotions pile up, I don't have to be like, all right, you're feeling this in this shot. You know what I mean? So you allow him to kind of get there on his own. And I'm amazed by it. He's incredible. But every single person in this movie was the star of the film for me, me. And I'm. And I'm touched by them all. Like the guy who plays Lloyd in the. In the. In the safe scene at the beginning. It's heartbreaking. It's hard being like, I work so hard. And he's given. He's given that business card. I talked to Lloyd about it. I talked to. Ralph is the actor's name. We talk about the things that wouldn't get him. You know, as you do as a director, you talk about. And then. Then you get. As a. As a director, you get so vulnerable, what people do. Then you. You roll the camera and you see how he's expressing the thing that he just told you about. It's devastating. You cry. You know what I mean? It's very emotional. And that's. When you're doing something like this is a great actor. They're willing to be. Bear themselves. Gwyneth was like that. Gwyneth was.
- [117:46]
A
My favorite scene in the movie is having seen it a second time. Is the conversation after their second encounter.
- [117:53]
D
In the hotel room.
- [117:54]
A
Yes.
- [117:55]
D
So funny. That was like a scene that was. That was a scene that was one. It turned out great. But it was one of those scenes where Ronnie and I, we rewrite it and rewrite it and rewrite it because there's a lot of.
- [118:05]
A
They're back and forth really fast and.
- [118:06]
D
There'S a lot of meaning in that scene. And oftentimes when you're. You're life, you. In conversations in real life, you don't talk about meaning sometimes, unless you're sitting down with a close friend and you're pontificating. Dan is somebody. And Ronnie too. Some of you talk about life with. But these people don't. Aren't going to do. So you have to find the right tenor for that. And there's such an interesting. You know, he's a kid in that scene.
- [118:30]
A
It's a mom and a son talking to each other.
- [118:32]
D
And she lost her son. And he's got a really complicated relationship with his mother who's constantly trying to trap him. He tells her, you sound like my mom. And. And, you know, I. And she says in that thing, I got pregnant. That's what stopped her dream. You know, what's going on in the movie.
- [118:46]
A
So.
- [118:47]
D
So there's. But there it's. So there's the practical.
- [118:51]
A
The.
- [118:51]
D
The real time part of the conversation is just him saying that I heard your. I saw your husband is paying for the play, which is also essential narrative piece. So it's. It's very hard. I'm happy you like that scene because every time someone tells us they enjoy that scene, Ryan, like, you know what I mean?
- [119:06]
A
Well, it's. It is like simultaneously philosophical and information delivering. And it never feels like it's there to, like, get something done for the movie. It is literally just what they would be talking about at that time and feels natural, which is an accomplishment. I could probably ask you a million more things. Okay, very quick one. Is that a knowing reference to look who's talking?
- [119:29]
D
I love look who's talking.
- [119:30]
A
Okay.
- [119:31]
D
I originally was gonna go in a different direction.
- [119:35]
A
Okay.
- [119:36]
D
I started. That took seven months that sequence to do from. It was started actually during production. Towards the end of production. I. And I wanted to do. It's more inspired by Niels Larsson, who is this Swedish photographer who did the book. This. This did this seven sixties seminal book where he photographed the fertilization process. But it was done with Mike. Mike Microphotography, electronic micron photography, which is black and white. Obviously, there's no light in these. In these process, in these scenes. And then this. There was this very interesting commercial photographer who colored them in a very interesting way. So my initial instinct was I want it to be as realistic as possible. I'm gonna make it look like we're looking at it in a science class in 1952. That was my initial, you know, exploration for it. So I was like, oh, we'll start art you. It's hard to direct CG artists because especially when you're doing something that you don't quite have references for. But I had these. This book, Child is Born. And I was showing it to him, showing. Showing it to the team company Artery in New York. And they went. And I was like, okay, first we'll do the black and white. We'll do the Electronic and then we'll color it afterwards. But no one really understood the color it afterwards part. So I'm looking at this really realistic recreation of sperms and. And, you know, the, the tubes and the, you know, the ovaries and the egg. And it was too realistic. It was not romantic. It was actually kind of abrasive looking. So then you start to go backwards. And I was like, well, let's. Then in the 80s, I. They did a. He did a film called oh, God Eternal. It's the film version basically, with a little bit more advancements, photographic advancements of his book in the 60s. And that was very inspiring. And then you think about look who's talking. I'm doing it. I'm like, oh, wow, there's. That's. Make me think of another movie. And you're like, oh, look who's talking. I love look who's talking. I remember as a kid seeing that and it being educational, it's impactful, it's memorable.
- [121:38]
A
Yeah.
- [121:39]
D
Incredible.
- [121:39]
A
And I think maybe just people our age will be like, is that a Nod to that 80 heavy movie?
- [121:45]
D
You know what I mean? And that sequence was definitely inspired by Neil's photography. There's no doubt about it. I mean that was the only that it was such a seminar. I mean, it's that I should have, you know, every prize in the world for. For showing that. For showing that part of the human creation. I mean, it's, it's the only. It's our visual now. It's getting. You can actually. We got super deep into making it as realistic as possible because you can really get in there now. And it's. It again, it's just. But it's, it's abrasive looking. So I wanted the romantic quality. I didn't want to lose that.
- [122:21]
A
It's. It's. It works. Yeah.
- [122:24]
D
And then the, the choir that comes in. The kids choir.
- [122:27]
A
Yeah. That's part. I think that's partly why is that. It is like, it's. It's the smart thing that you do where you're setting us up for an inevitability, but we completely forget about the inevitability when we're watching the movie.
- [122:37]
D
That's awesome.
- [122:38]
A
You know what I mean? Like you, you're not hiding anything.
- [122:40]
D
There's a lot going on in this guy's life.
- [122:42]
A
Yes, there is.
- [122:43]
D
And it's easy to forget. Yeah. And there's a handful of things. If you go back and watch the movie, it's like, oh, he did say about the bathtub, but you Forget about it. Because this guy's goal, he's making the best possible decision in every interaction he has. So you actually, as an audience are not hearing things or remembering things. And that was, you know, that was Ronnie and I. That was something that we. That spent. That's what took so much time, is to figure out a way to be present so that you couldn't kind of forget about things that you saw in the recent past in your real life an hour ago or something.
- [123:17]
A
Yeah. Do you feel like it's a chapter closing but movie in a way for you, or do you think that.
- [123:24]
D
In what regards?
- [123:25]
A
Well, I wonder if the next movie has this exact same propulsion.
- [123:33]
D
Yeah, I mean, I feel very comfortable in this speed. I understand. I can understand more about the ideas and the meaning of my own expression in a way not to sound self involved, but I do feel just comfortable in that. But as you're saying, there's lots of ebbs and flows in this film that are different from the other ones.
- [123:57]
A
That's why I'm asking, because there's some moments where you never know.
- [124:00]
D
It depends on the story. You know what I mean? If I. Yeah, I was going to say a movie about a painter, but, you know, then you think of like Life Lessons, the Scorsese film, which is incredible.
- [124:13]
A
Yeah.
- [124:13]
D
You know, there's a real propulsion there. I mean, I just.
- [124:16]
A
But that's in the emotional dynamics, not in the speed of the film. Right.
- [124:19]
D
Like, not in the cutting in that movie, at least. The cutting in that movie is. Yeah, but, but, yes, but that, but that, that is kind of the case here, minus a couple of sequences. There are some pretty intense, propulsive sequences here. But I just, I, you know, I find that, you know, life moves really quickly and, you know, the days move fast and then you have, you know, you have a kid, literally. The days move fast. The years are long. Sorry. The days are long. The years are fast.
- [124:51]
A
Yes.
- [124:51]
D
And that freaks me out. And time in general freaks me out. So I'm trying to. I'm wish fulfillment with. With movies. I go to the movies to see characters do things that. That I wouldn't do. That's. There's a heroic quality to that. There's a wish fulfillment. And I go to the movies to. To. It's a maximalist art form. I don't care if it's the most minimalist film, it's still maximalist. There's people talking, there's music. There's. Even if there isn't music, sound in the score. There's music in the world that they're in and there's. That's overwhelming in its own, you know, microbeat. So I go for the maximalist effect. So I'm again, I can't tell. It's all about the subject matter.
- [125:33]
A
I don't know if you feel this way with your kids right now, but this year. So I have a four year old. This year is the first year of her life that I thought went too fast. The first three years I was like, this is going slowly.
- [125:41]
D
Oh, really?
- [125:41]
A
This is hard. And this year I was like, oh no. I can feel it slipping through my fingers already. And I wonder what effect that might have on how you make movies given the speed that you like to work with.
- [125:51]
D
Yeah, I mean, I got to figure out how to make movies quicker. You can't spend.
- [125:56]
A
Are you worried about that?
- [125:58]
D
You know, sometimes because you want to.
- [126:02]
A
Walk away having done 20 films.
- [126:04]
D
I have no idea. Yeah, you want to. I definitely want to work until the day I die. That's for sure.
- [126:09]
A
That's nice to hear.
- [126:10]
D
Yeah. I don't. Work sets you free. It's. It's amen. I don't understand retirement. I just don't understand it. I don't even. And I love everyone who takes pride in what they do do. I love when you meet a prideful person. It's incredible. It's life affirming. And I hope I'll take pride. I hope I'll take pride in what I do. If I don't, I mean, I want to. I don't know, I mean, I might want to become an architect. That's my dream. I want to build a public facing building. I want to build a building that people can experience. And I want to think about the narrative of a building, what it's like to enter it, what it's like to go upstairs and leave. That would be an incredible dream stream to do that.
- [126:48]
A
A real life brutalist.
- [126:49]
D
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
- [126:54]
A
Okay, so I'm not gonna ask you what are you doing next? Because you think that would be disrespectful. Yeah. Nix. How you feeling?
- [127:02]
D
I like them. I'm so accustomed to like a six man rotation and the grind that come. I'm. I watch. Watch sports for the chemistry. There's nothing less exciting to me than a team that has no chemistry. It's sad. It's like what am I even looking. You watch for the narratives. You want the narratives inside your team. And I don't quite fully know the, the, the movie that the Knicks are right now. We have a Lot of great players.
- [127:33]
A
Got to open your heart to Tyler Kolek, you know.
- [127:35]
D
I love Kolek the man. Yeah, I love, I see the thing is, I, I, I'm a big Deuce Deuce guy as well.
- [127:42]
A
Yeah. An incredible season so far.
- [127:43]
D
Yeah, he's, but he's been, he was great since the moment he got onto the team.
- [127:48]
A
I agree.
- [127:49]
D
I, there are certain lineups that work better than others. The 11 man rotation is fascinating because you're just like, how do you like? I, I, when I saw it with the Pacers last year, I was not, I was strange.
- [128:04]
A
It was, it was frustrating, psychedelic.
- [128:06]
D
Almost like, what's going on now? Is this person, when did they check in?
- [128:09]
A
Yes.
- [128:09]
D
And no one gets tired. But, but the drawback from that is you don't have these, like, long term relationships inside the game. You know what I mean? You don't get to see Brunson and Bridges develop over the game because Bridges is playing with Deuce for long stretches of the game and Cat and Brunson and they're not playing as much as they should be together. And Mitch is a totally, the team is totally different when Mitch is on the floor.
- [128:38]
A
It's true.
- [128:39]
D
And Brown, I don't, I don't, I don't like again, Tibs was so simple. He was so simple. Frustratingly simple at times, but I, it was predictable. I loved him. I was happy he was fired. I wanted him fired.
- [128:51]
A
I'm in the exact same position, but I miss him. But he brought something, he brought a stability and, and success that we were on time for. Yes.
- [128:59]
D
You knew what you were getting. And he, you know, look, I had heard that there was a couple of, you know, out, you know, player, you know, going into the summer meetings that went really long. I know some of the players, some inside information that was 20 seconds. Some of them were like 90 minutes.
- [129:19]
A
Yeah.
- [129:20]
D
So some players, like, what are you doing with me? Why am I on this team?
- [129:24]
A
You can see that in the way that some of them have performed this season too.
- [129:28]
D
Oh, yeah. You know who is, who had the long outro.
- [129:33]
A
Outgoing. He feels more free now.
- [129:35]
D
Oh, yeah, for sure. We're talking about the five, the five boroughs.
- [129:38]
A
Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah.
- [129:39]
D
The Cal Bridges. He does. And he's, and it's great to see because he's an amazing defender. I mean, our defense is kind of better than we were last year too, which was, it wasn't. Tibbs just lost his identity last year. I have theories, we all do about personnel and like, it's one of those.
- [129:55]
A
Be careful what you wish for with working till you die. Because like he grinds hard and there is a consequence, but his life is.
- [130:02]
D
His purpose, is waking up. I mean, he has consequences.
- [130:05]
A
Consequences.
- [130:06]
D
You're married to the game, though. I know he's married to the game. He has children with the game.
- [130:10]
A
I know.
- [130:11]
D
You know what I mean?
- [130:11]
A
And, and I hope another team.
- [130:13]
D
He'll never win a championship.
- [130:14]
A
I know it just won't happen.
- [130:15]
D
And it's sad. But he's going to be. He's going to be one of those coaches. That was great. You know, and. But like, do we still have Derrick Rose if he's not the coach? I mean, that was amazing. Derek Rose was incredible.
- [130:29]
A
Yeah.
- [130:29]
D
Do we have him if he's not?
- [130:31]
A
Not probably. It's impossible to know.
- [130:34]
D
You never know. But like, you know, I don't know. KG always told me that, that the problem with, you know, the reoccurring injuries nowadays is the. Is this is the way that they're. They're not working out the right way. Because there were less injuries back then.
- [130:49]
A
Yeah.
- [130:49]
D
And you could say the game is more high octane and it's more, you know, you have bigs that are having to run out to the three point line and it's, it's faster. But Chuck Daly was fast as fuck. You know, and that was back then. And you know, you didn't see 500 injuries a year.
- [131:05]
A
It's true.
- [131:06]
D
So it's hard to. Hard to say. I mean, I do the one thing that I'm, you know, by the way, they asked me to direct a game for the telecast. Yeah. In the truck. It's like the coolest.
- [131:15]
A
You gotta do that.
- [131:16]
D
I'm gonna do it for sure. I mean they saw.
- [131:20]
A
How are they prepared for the amount of parts you're willing to do?
- [131:23]
D
The New York. I don't read reviews. Right. But some reviews I end up reading because so many people send them to me. The New York Post one was sent to me by a lot of people. And so I read that review and.
- [131:35]
A
Of Marty. You mean of Marty. Yeah.
- [131:37]
D
And that one was sent to me by someone who works at MSG Networks. And that was that. I love the review for that reason now that it, it linked me to. And then they said, wow, the way you captured table tennis, it'd be great to see you capture basketball. And I'm already thinking like, okay, I'm gonna get this camera over here. I'm gonna do that. I'm this. I want to get into the psychology of the game. It's gonna be hard and it's gonna.
- [132:00]
A
I don't.
- [132:00]
D
I hope I'll have time to prep for it.
- [132:02]
A
If you haven't spoken to John DeMarsico, who cuts the Mets games, who directs the Mets games, you gotta talk to him because he's a huge cinephile.
- [132:09]
D
Well, the way they've covered some of those. The split diopter stuff is incredible.
- [132:13]
A
He's doing amazing stuff. And just as like. As an. As a movie nerd, being such a big fan of the two.
- [132:18]
D
Well, also, you get to have Keith. His cinephilic taste.
- [132:21]
A
All three of them. They love movies. They'll fucking talk about TCM for an hour during a blowout game.
- [132:27]
D
It's amazing, you know that the. That Somerville, in one battle after another, Paul Grimstad, who's the leader, he's like.
- [132:35]
A
One second in your movie. Yeah, I clocked him yesterday.
- [132:37]
D
You can hear him a bunch. He's amazing. He's a friend of ours. He's the lead of Ronnie's film.
- [132:41]
A
Yes, of course. That's right.
- [132:42]
D
He. He's the craziest Mets fan.
- [132:44]
A
Really? Oh, my God, we gotta get him on this show.
- [132:47]
D
The craziest Mets fan. Amazing guy.
- [132:49]
A
He also utters the words towards the big picture multiple times in one battle. So, you know, he's. We're good for life. Do a mashup of that. Okay. We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen?
- [133:00]
D
Last great thing.
- [133:01]
A
Great.
- [133:02]
D
Can I just say the last thing I saw?
- [133:03]
A
If you want to.
- [133:04]
D
Okay.
- [133:05]
A
I hope you. I hope.
- [133:07]
D
I thought it was great. No, I thought it was great last night. You know, I just. You know, you. You. You get into this part of the process of the film, which you kind of forget about when you're. You may.
- [133:17]
A
You have to forget about in six years.
- [133:18]
D
Yeah. And of course it's important to. To promote the film, but talking about yourself is a lot, and I like to unwind, so I decided to. Ronnie and I were talking about wild things yesterday.
- [133:31]
A
Oh, hell yeah.
- [133:32]
D
And. And then we realized it was directed by the McDonough. Excuse me. Excuse me. McNaughton, who did Henry Portrait of Serial Killer?
- [133:40]
A
He sure did.
- [133:40]
D
And then I saw this movie he did called the Borrower. Have you ever seen the Borrower? It's fascinating movie.
- [133:46]
A
What's the Borrower?
- [133:47]
D
The Borrower is about these two. This. This alien who did something really bad on his planet. And he's being. His punishment is he has to be human and they're Gonna drop him off on Earth and he has to just be. Live on Earth. So the alien who's like, the cop who's bringing him to Earth and be like, all right, go. Is like. And they're arguing about it. They like, they speak English, which is whatever you gotta get. And they, they. They arrive on planet Earth and there are these two guys, a father and son, and they're just getting drunk in a car in the middle of a field. And they see this insane alien looking thing and this human. But inside the human is the alien in human form. And they have start having a huge fight. The alien and this human being and they see, they imagine they're like, we have to help the human. That thing is a beast. So they kill the alien and they go to help the human. But the human's an alien and he's very violent. He's very violent. So he. He rips the head off of.
- [134:46]
A
He rips the head off of.
- [134:48]
D
Oh, wait, his head is trying to remember. I just watched it. His. The human's head is ripped off.
- [134:54]
A
Huh?
- [134:55]
D
No, I'm sorry, his.
- [134:56]
A
The.
- [134:57]
D
The alien can't take the human form for too long.
- [134:59]
A
Okay.
- [135:00]
D
So while they're talking, they're asking this human if he's okay. And. And Kevin. Kevin Jaeger did all the effects.
- [135:06]
A
So. Looks good.
- [135:07]
D
It looks really cool. Who by the way, I met very briefly when I produced. If I had legs, I'd kick you. We wanted to bring Kevin into thing, but we couldn't get. Get to him but for the film. But he. But sorry. So Kevin Yeager did this. So. So there's this moment where Kevin Yeager's effects come in. And it's important to mention Jaeger because the movie is kind of like the thing which was eight years or something like that earlier. And also the hidden, it's very similar to the hidden as well.
- [135:37]
A
Yeah.
- [135:38]
D
So this guy's. The alien can't take being in this body anymore. Or its expiration date is upon itself and it's. The head explodes and it's. This creature comes through the hands and it needs a new head. So it rips the head off of the guy that killed the alien and it puts it on top of him and it just. You can see, looks like Frankenstein's monster. So he's. But now he's this new person who has the brain of the guy he just killed. But they're still kind of functioning as the alien. So each person it inhabits is. It has a different personality. So it. It goes. It ends up hitchhiking or.
- [136:14]
A
No.
- [136:15]
D
Gets hit by a car. Gets hit. It gets hit by. By a car. By this woman. And then the movie becomes very interesting because the woman who hits him. It could just turn into kind of like a bad B movie. But there are these moments of. Of like real people. In particular, the way he shoots.
- [136:32]
A
I think it's la.
- [136:32]
D
You can't. Doesn't really ever say documentary of this. Like, they're just walking around like what looks like skid Row. And he's literally. This is like a huge cut where the head that. The neck sits on top of the. The head sits on top of the neck. And then he's just moving around and humanity is ugly in the movie. It's like worst. And it's. It's like an allegory about how basically we are the aliens. You know what I mean? Like, we're an ugly group. We don't really. We're just a parasite on this planet.
- [137:00]
A
Planet.
- [137:01]
D
And there's this Eve. There's a parallel story about a really bad dude who's more violent than the alien, but he just hosts through host through host. And weirdly that he ends up taking the. He ends up taking a dog's head at one point, which is so weird because the hidden does that.
- [137:13]
A
Yeah.
- [137:14]
D
And the thing does that.
- [137:15]
A
Yeah.
- [137:15]
D
It's like the same idea the all three directors can't get away from. But it's a. It's a weird movie. It's.
- [137:21]
A
This is also very. It sounds like it's lifted completely in Men in Black. That's a whole thing in Men in Black, too. With the d' Onofrio character.
- [137:27]
D
It actually. He looks. The first guy looks like d' Onofrio in Men in Black.
- [137:31]
A
So weird.
- [137:32]
D
Yeah, it's the borrower.
- [137:33]
A
I've never heard of it.
- [137:34]
D
Yeah, check it out. I was.
- [137:36]
A
Good one.
- [137:36]
D
I was pretty. It was very helpful last night because.
- [137:39]
A
I was just like.
- [137:39]
D
Did like three Q&As and like this. And I was like, I just want to Ryan. And we're talking about wild things. Then like, oh, my God. Same director as Henry Portugal. And we see this movie. The thing that made me want to watch it is as an alien arrives on planet Earth and he's very violent. And there was just something so blunt about that.
- [137:54]
A
I was like, I got to see this incredible recommendation. Hey, congrats on Marty Supreme. Thank you so much. Congrats on if I Had Legs, I Kick you too. Which is also one of my favorite movies of the year.
- [138:03]
D
Such a special film.
- [138:04]
A
It really is. And good luck with everything. I hope this movie makes $800 billion. Me, too. Okay. Thanks to Josh Safdie. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Hey, it's Christmas Eve when this is running.
- [138:22]
B
Oh, it is.
- [138:22]
A
Yeah. So have a happy holidays. Merry Christmas, all the listeners out there. We're not done in 2025. We have have, frankly, several more episodes to both record and for you to listen to for the rest of the year. Later this week, I indicated another film coming on our 25 for 25 list. Number two will be coming.
- [138:42]
B
A great double feature.
- [138:43]
A
Great double feature. We'll see you then, Sam.