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The Big Picture
‘Materialists’ and the Top Five Movie Love Triangles. Plus: ‘The Life of Chuck,’ With Mike Flanagan.
01:43:48
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- [00:00]
Sean Fennessy
Friendly reminder that tickets for the Chicago screening and conversation around number 14 on our 25 for 25 list go on sale today, Friday, June 13th at 10:00am Central Time. We're headed to the Music Box Theater in Chicago on Sunday, July 20th and ticket information is at theringer.com events. We'll see you at the movies. This episode is brought to you by the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit Card. This is an ad for the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mom or grabbing a coffee with your dog, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me, the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Max the HBO Original comedy special Jerrod Don't Be Gay is now streaming on max. Emmy winning comedian Jerrod Carmichael returns to the stage in his boldest special yet, bringing his sharp wit, unfiltered honesty, and the kind of vulnerability that's made his voice truly one of a kind. Fresh off his groundbreaking docuseries, Carmichael dives even deeper, sharing his singular take on life, masculinity and what it means to be himself. Don't miss Gerard Carmichael. Don't Be Gay now streaming on max. I'm Sean Fennessy.
- [01:39]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is the.
- [01:40]
Sean Fennessy
Big Picture, a conversation show about material things and spiritual journeys. Later in this episode, I'll be joined for the first time by Mike Flanagan. He's the writer director of the new film the Life of Chuck. The Stephen King adaptation won the Audience Award at TIFF last year and is now in theaters around the country. Flanagan, best known as a horror filmmaker behind movies like Doctor Sleep, Gerald's Game and Oculus, as well as a string of successful Netflix TV shows including the Haunting of Hill House, Midnight Mass and the Fall the House of Usher. I've been a big fan of Mike's for a long time, so very happy to chat with him about this departure for him as a movie. We'll talk about that movie here on this podcast. Stick around for our conversation, but first, we've got this pair of very interesting movies to dig into today. Amanda, how are you?
- [02:21]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm well.
- [02:22]
Sean Fennessy
It's nice to see you.
- [02:23]
Amanda Dobbins
Nice to see you.
- [02:24]
Sean Fennessy
I love when we get a couple of movies that we can argue about that. Well, just Just that are, are full of stuff that we're interested in.
- [02:32]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes. And to talk about. And I, I sat through both of them fighting the impulse to text you multiple times.
- [02:37]
Sean Fennessy
It's the same. I was, I was excited about both of them.
- [02:39]
Amanda Dobbins
I say things to you and was like adding things to the document at like 7:30 this morning being like add another thing. So yeah, it's fun.
- [02:47]
Sean Fennessy
I think both of these movies are imperfect but also very rich to examine. So let's start with Materialist, which is I think safe to say one of the more anticipated movies of the year for both you and I comes to us from Celine Song. She's the writer director. She was the writer director of past lives. Which was. That was in your top five of 2023, was it not?
- [03:06]
Amanda Dobbins
I thought and still think it's a pretty magical movie.
- [03:09]
Sean Fennessy
Very special film. This film is a follow up. This is a, I would say a more Hollywood follow up. Particularly because of the clearly like an increase in bud star power that accompanies this movie. The movie stars Dakota Johnson, Chris Evans, Pedro Pascal, Zoe Winters, Marin Ireland, Dasha Nekrasova. It's about a New York City matchmaker who finds her life getting complicated when she becomes torn between an ex who she still has feelings for and a new bachelor who enters her life and kind of sweeps her off her feet. Chris Evans is the ex. Pedro Pascal is the bachelor. What did you think of Materialists?
- [03:47]
Amanda Dobbins
As I said to you, I really liked it and also didn't think it totally worked. I don't think that all of the fascinating stuff that is in it totally comes together in one movie. And so there are a lot of things that I really responded to, a lot of things that I thought were funny. I think that this is a movie that is in the conversation with a tradition of movies that I really love and not just romantic comedies. And we'll talk a lot about the trailer, how it's being marketed. And it's not a romantic comedy. It's not really even that funny. Parts of there, there's some, it has its moments. There's some very amusing observant moments. But it is not, there's nothing slapstick, it's not a 40s Rom com. How about that? Um, and I think it's very smart. I love the way that Celine Song writes. Um, and it is, it is very written. Both of these films today are very written. And we'll talk about the pluses and minuses of that. So I, I'm really excited to talk to you about it. I Still. And I. And I find myself, like, arguing with myself, being like, okay, but wait, does. Do I actually really like it? Because I have so much to say about it and I do really like it. There are just some things that, like, straight up don't work for me in it.
- [05:09]
Sean Fennessy
The same is true for me. I feel similarly as you, but I feel like you are, like, a little bit pained by your lack of all in ness. And I think I was pretty nervous about this movie because of the trailer. And I think it revealed itself to be clearly just an urban romantic drama. It does have some comic moments, but it is a very straight movie. And you know, just this morning, well, last night somebody added me and said on so on X and said, are you doing any syllabuses soon? I haven't done a syllabus in a while. And I was like, I kind of want to, but if I had seen Materialist sooner, I would have done one about Materialist because it's kind of rich with a little bit of movie history in it and. And a 24. The movie studio that is releasing Materialists just tweeted out all of the film references that working on it for weeks.
- [05:53]
Amanda Dobbins
They just tweeted it out.
- [05:54]
Sean Fennessy
They just tweeted it out. But in March, she clearly wrote someone an email with all the film references. And if you look at the movies that Celine is referencing for the film, it's a lot of costume dramas, it's.
- [06:05]
Amanda Dobbins
A lot of Jane Austen, and it's a lot of Edith Wharton, which is definitely what jumped out to me.
- [06:11]
Sean Fennessy
Absolutely. And this idea of sort of class and finance and wealth informing romance is a huge key. It's kind of the keystone of the movie itself. And then the other critical voice whose name pops up on this list is James L. Brooks and James L. Brooks, who wrote funny scenes but deep emotional films. And I think at times Materialist is that so the movie that it reminded me of while watching it, because we get so few movies like this these days, is Marriage Story. Because Marriage Story was a movie that I really, really loved. I loved it more than this movie, but that I think I had more fun thinking about and potting with you about than I did actually sitting and watching it.
- [06:49]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [06:49]
Sean Fennessy
I don't find myself returning to Marriage Story over and over again the way I would other bombach movies.
- [06:55]
Amanda Dobbins
That's true.
- [06:55]
Sean Fennessy
But it was so loaded with things that, like, lit my brain on fire.
- [06:58]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. But some of the lack of rewatchability is just that it's like very tough subject matter and very, you know, Emotional to us. Subject matter that is handled beautifully. I did rewatch it maybe a year or two ago for some podcast that we were doing and just, like, found myself in tears again. So that's why I am not like, hey, it's Friday night. Let's, you know, like, fire up marriage story. Even the way I would for, say, kicking and screaming or Frances Ha. Or I guess Greenberg. I've made. Can we. It's 15 years of Greenberg.
- [07:30]
Sean Fennessy
You want to do a Greenberg pod?
- [07:32]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, sure. Really, really underrated.
- [07:34]
Sean Fennessy
I'm turning into Greenberg. I think everyone knows that I'm turning into Greenberg, so I'm trying to get around that as much as I can. I think the thing that that movie did, that you've identified that this movie doesn't do is it doesn't get me. It didn't get me emotionally involved. And there are a couple of reasons why Materialist doesn't get us as emotionally involved as we'd like to be. For me, I'm gonna be very careful about how I frame this.
- [07:58]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [07:59]
Sean Fennessy
I don't get Dakota Johnson, comma the actress.
- [08:03]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay. Yeah.
- [08:05]
Sean Fennessy
I think she seems like a super cool person. She was on Amy Poehler's podcast this week. Good hang. Great interview.
- [08:11]
Amanda Dobbins
The asparagus bit, the dot. I mean, like, it's really good.
- [08:15]
Sean Fennessy
It's a great episode of the show.
- [08:16]
Amanda Dobbins
It's outpressed to her. And it would also. And I'll. I'll do this work for you. She's astonishingly beautiful. Like, she's so beautiful and she's so pretty in the movie. And I did find myself just in the movie just being like, wow, your hair is so shiny. And I have, like, had conversations with friends being like, dakota Johnson has always been beautiful, but whatever she has, has put together for this press, she's at.
- [08:41]
Sean Fennessy
The right age, I think.
- [08:42]
Amanda Dobbins
And this film, it is like, it's. It's powerful.
- [08:45]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, she's luminous. And that, I think, in some ways, works against her in this movie in a specific way. But to me, it's not about whether or not she holds the screen. I think she is a good movie star. I just don't think. I can't get connected to movies where she has to drive the emotional action. If she is in a bigger splash and her kind of reservedness is playing, or Suspiria, where this sort of, like, restraint and fear is driving it, I can get interested in it. But a movie where she has to be the person that we are feeling for all the time, I just can't. It's Just, it's black licorice for me. I can't get into it. I don't buy her as this person.
- [09:22]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [09:22]
Sean Fennessy
And the whole movie is kind of hinging on that. And so as much as I can admire and we can unpack thematically, visually, what is so cool and accomplished about this movie, I just kept banging my head against like, did she just read this dialogue for the first time in this scene?
- [09:37]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, okay, yes. You know, I would like to mount like a limited defense, which is to some point, I think her reservedness and the disconnect from the world and an emotion that she brings is a cool theme of the movie. And there are aspects of it that work and kind of highlight. I think what Celine Song is trying to do. I do not think that Dakota Johnson is built for long stage monologues. She's just not. And to your point about did she just get this for the first time? You know what? She's not the only actor in this movie who can't do it. So there are some really, really tough moments of two people saying what I think are like, very interesting, well written, well digested, if like a bit long speeches about love and society and money and, you know, the ideal marriage. And it just goes on and on and on. So I am with you at some point that the people who are cast to do this work can't sell what they need to sell.
- [10:55]
Sean Fennessy
It's a complete paradox because a movie like this doesn't get made without Pedro Pascal, Dakota Johnson, very Chris Evans, very well known people who you want to get emotionally invested in their characters stories. But it's hard. Broadcast news will come up probably multiple times in this conversation. It's notable to me that it's the very first movie on Celine's list. And the dynamic between Holly Hunter and Albert Brooks and William Hurt is sparks all the time. It's a very hot movie. This is a little chilly at times. It is a little bit removed. And I think it's interesting to see Celine Song elevate herself as a filmmaker. I think some of that coldness is because she has entered like a world of wealth and class that we don't see in past lives.
- [11:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [11:43]
Sean Fennessy
You know, the Pedro Pascal character is a private equity guy and he's got this like classic American Psycho bachelor pad that is beautiful. He only dines in elegant, subterranean, beautifully lit restaurants. A lot of the way that she shoots all of these things is. It's not. It's not a watch commercial. But it's not Fellini either. You know, it's kind of like in this middle ground between. There's, like, a real point of view, but it's very polished.
- [12:15]
Amanda Dobbins
I thought a lot of Sofia. Definitely, definitely. And the observation, not just there's that great. The apartment reveal scene is done. Um, it's also like the first time they have sex. And. And I think Dakota Johnson is great in that moment. Cause she's hot for the apartment, not for him.
- [12:32]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. There's a great shot of her, like, kind of peering around the corner to check everything out.
- [12:35]
Amanda Dobbins
And the camera is working with her, too. So I think that's really well done. And then there is a lot of. You know, there are things at the edges, like both weddings impeccably designed and really, like, say something about these characters and, you know, what kind of chess pieces they are in this game. And they are also just, like, incredibly well observed. Like that barn wedding. I was like, is this where I got married? In a way that was really upsetting.
- [13:03]
Sean Fennessy
It's very familiar.
- [13:04]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. It was not. And it was a beautiful wedding. So. Good job, Zack. And. Good job. This movie, the bridesmaids and, like, at the first wedding and the comedy of that. So there is. There is stuff that she's doing with the camera, with scene setting, with world building that is very, very well observed, very sharp, and really works.
- [13:30]
Sean Fennessy
I think the first 15 minutes in particular was very Woody Allen, Nancy Myers, to me, where it was much more comic. It's much more introducing. Many characters who have. Their foibles are right on the surface. They're constantly talking about the things that they want, which reveals their own weaknesses. And there is an energy. And then as soon as we start determining what the emotional conflict of the movie is going to be.
- [13:52]
Amanda Dobbins
There's no emotional conflict. There's no emotional conflict.
- [13:54]
Sean Fennessy
It's just a little flat.
- [13:55]
Amanda Dobbins
There is. There is plot, suspense, sort of. And I did find myself wondering, well, I wonder how she's going to end this, because, like, I know what's going to happen according to the, like, the emotional or the. Not even.
- [14:08]
Sean Fennessy
Not even the rules, but, like, the rules of expectation.
- [14:11]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, sure, But I was like, okay, are you gonna follow the rules or are you gonna subvert the rules? You know, and you could pick either. But in terms of what's happening between these characters and. Or at least what's being performed, I know exactly where the emotions lie. There's no doubt. And, you know, respectfully, there's just zero chemistry between Dakota and Pedro Pascal. Like, absolutely nothing. And their press tour has been amazing to watch because they do Have a different really electric kind of chemistry. Like, please check out the Vogue. It is so funny.
- [14:46]
Sean Fennessy
I haven't seen that. I think we will kind of start to nudge into spoiler territory. So if people have not had a chance to see Materialist, I would say for me, it is a soft recommend and I think some people are going to love it.
- [14:57]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [14:57]
Sean Fennessy
And I think some people are going to be like, what is this? I ultimately did like it. I might even like it more seeing it again. I have only seen it one time, but I think that what you just described about their kind of anti chemistry between these two people is the feature and not the bug. Because that is the theme of the story is when you're seeking a partner in your life.
- [15:21]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [15:21]
Sean Fennessy
Is it better to seek the person that will give you the things that are on your checklist or is it better to seek the person that will animate that spark inside of you? And that's. That's really what Song is interested in. Right? Like, that's what she wants to explore.
- [15:34]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. But like, no, thank you. Like, I'm a veteran of this. Like, should you pay? Like, is it Mr. Big? Is it Aiden? Is it something like, thank you very much. Like, and I know when I see like the push pull and the oh, I would choose this thing or I would choose that thing. And there's just like.
- [15:50]
Sean Fennessy
But is nothing between them? Seriously? Like, let's explore that though. Is there ever a time in the movie when you're meant to believe that Dakota Johnson's character is actually interested in Pedro Pascal as a person? Because I'm not sure that the intention is for that to exist. Unlike, say, Carrie Bradshaw, where you really can tell that she's like, I don't know. I like both guys. You know, like, this movie is different because even though Chris Evans is on the periphery of the story.
- [16:17]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [16:18]
Sean Fennessy
He's not fighting for her. He's thinking about her. They're in contact, but it's not a competition in the. In the way that we usually see in the Philadelphia Story sense where you're like, these two guys are right next to each other and they're kind of fighting for the same dame. This isn't really that kind of a movie.
- [16:34]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, it is like a what is she going to choose? But that character is also given so much, like, even if it's incorrect self knowledge. But she spends the whole time being like, no, this is how it works. And I know everything and I know this game and I know this and I, like, I understand that. I would only be picking this person for this. And then there is that, like, there's that long and beautifully shot and for my money, interminable scene at the restaurant, the subterranean restaurant.
- [17:07]
Sean Fennessy
Where Gordon Willis is dining, the most shadowy restaurant in New York.
- [17:11]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, it's beautiful. And it seems like he's turning her a little. Maybe not emotionally, but in the sense of where do her emotions go? You know, like.
- [17:30]
Sean Fennessy
But to me, that scene is really good because he just pulls a move that men pull.
- [17:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [17:38]
Sean Fennessy
Which is like, direct eye contact, compliment, which, like, humans cannot resist. You can't resist when someone just looks at you and is like. That's what I'm saying.
- [17:52]
Amanda Dobbins
I know that you do it, but.
- [17:54]
Sean Fennessy
It is something that, like, most guys I know do it. And it is like. It almost feels like Celine's song has, like, located the particular moves. And maybe it's because she has this backstory where for six months she worked as a matchmaker. So she did actually spend time looking people in the eyes, asking them what they want, getting communication from them. And, you know, I don't know if I believe that either of those people are real. I believe that Chris Evans character is real.
- [18:18]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [18:19]
Sean Fennessy
That is a per. And she works with a lot of stage actors as a playwright. And, like, she seems to be putting a lot of failed stage actor into that part. These two people feel like more constructs, but she's using them as a platform to explore her own interest in this idea. And, like, a lot of these ideas are basically like wealth and security or passion, which is very Jane Austen, you know, very Edith Wharton.
- [18:43]
Amanda Dobbins
And you finally watched Sense and Sensibility, and you were like. I mean, what's the big deal? Like, what's really. What's going on with that?
- [18:51]
Sean Fennessy
I liked it.
- [18:52]
Amanda Dobbins
No, I know, but, like, you did, you know, we've. We've made a lot of progress. So you understand the stakes dramatically here.
- [18:58]
Sean Fennessy
I read House of Mirth in college, and I was miserable reading that book, too. So I think. I don't. That's just. It's not.
- [19:05]
Amanda Dobbins
It's really.
- [19:06]
Sean Fennessy
I was much more interested in a contemporary setting. I think I clicked to it more. But. So I think this movie is ultimately gonna be a challenge for us. Cause you're not very into Pedro Pascal, and I'm not very into Dakota Johnson. And so they are the first two thirds of the movie in so many ways, with Evans on the periphery. Anytime they're getting into those speeches, I kind of dug it. It felt very Sorkin and Mamet to me. Where it was like, you make exceptions for writers who are being writerly out loud, if you like the things that they're interested in. You know what I mean?
- [19:36]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't mind that they're being writerly out loud. I just don't think that the performance of the writing always gets there. And there is both, like, a. There's a tone and a pacing thing in this movie that kept sticking out to me. I mean, it has, like, five endings. Like, literally, I thought five different times that I was watching the last scene.
- [19:58]
Sean Fennessy
And I think she kept trying to pull the rug out from you, where you're like, you're at a wedding and they're together and you think you're gonna.
- [20:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Have a moment, and there's like. And as you noted, there's like a great front stoop moment, and you're like, oh, that's so nice. Call back past lives. We're doing it again. But I do also think, because there is a disconnect between the three characters, or I know that there is an intentional disconnect between them, but I think there also is a real tonal disconnect. And the way Dakota Johnson is playing it is in a slightly different movie than the way Pedro Pascal is playing it, which is in a way different movie than Chris Evans, which is sort of the point. But so sometimes it just. The moments where it's as if they were on the stage together speaking to each other, like they're not on the same stage.
- [20:47]
Sean Fennessy
I agree. There is something just a little off in the chemistry. Let's talk about matchmaking. And that as the other angle of the movie, because the other focus of it is that Lucy, the Dakota Johnson character, is, I guess, in her early 30s.
- [21:02]
Amanda Dobbins
She's 39.
- [21:03]
Sean Fennessy
She's 39 in the film.
- [21:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Lucy, the other matchmaker.
- [21:07]
Sean Fennessy
Oh, no.
- [21:07]
Amanda Dobbins
Lucy. Oh. Oh. I thought you were talking about Zoe Winters.
- [21:09]
Sean Fennessy
Not Zoe Winters. The Lucy character, I guess, is like, 32. 32.
- [21:13]
Amanda Dobbins
Three, maybe. She's 32.
- [21:14]
Sean Fennessy
She was trying to be an actress. That's how she met John, the Chris Evans character. But she's given up on acting, and she says she makes $80,000 a year as a matchmaker, which is not. Not a lot.
- [21:23]
Amanda Dobbins
No. And does not support the apartment that we see at the beginning.
- [21:26]
Sean Fennessy
And maybe was that like a winking nod at the. I mean, I think, unreality of a lot of these films. Okay, I thought that was notable. I mean, it obviously underscores the fact that money matters to her, that, like, she is thinking about money and you need Money to survive, especially in New York City. But this profession is very strange in that it has a kind of like thousands year arc. The film in fact starts with this like the origination of marriage, you know, like the earliest people on this planet. And then the idea of families coming together to create strong bonds and to share wealth and to grow and to build societies is this deep idea that's kind of embedded in it. But most of the people that I know that have gotten together and gotten married in the last 10 years met online and most people just meet online now. And that rambunctious and weird bar culture that you and I were in in New York is like seemingly a little bit more toned down these days. At least based on the people that I know in my life. And I don't know anybody that's worked with a matchmaker.
- [22:28]
Amanda Dobbins
I do.
- [22:29]
Sean Fennessy
I'd love to hear about their experiences anonymously because I find this to be such a odd thing to pursue, to be interested in, to attempt. And the movie does ultimately, I think come out on the side of like this is maybe a bit evil, like a bit toxic and quite dangerous. When you hear about some of the. A particular instance that happens to one of her clients.
- [22:49]
Amanda Dobbins
Sure. I mean the Dakota Johnson character, Lucy is always talking in terms of spreadsheets. You know, she's a woman after your own heart.
- [22:58]
Sean Fennessy
Indeed. Maybe that's why I'm a little non negotiables and.
- [23:03]
Amanda Dobbins
And that it's. It's math. That's something that I think she says over and over again.
- [23:06]
Sean Fennessy
She does.
- [23:08]
Amanda Dobbins
And so I think the movie definitely comes down on the side of it's. It's not, it's not math or that love is not math. And I, you know, I think the difference between love and this movie's idea of marriage and what you should. How the two should or shouldn't be interviewing. You know, intermingled is interesting, but is.
- [23:33]
Sean Fennessy
Marriage a business proposition or is it an emotional experience?
- [23:36]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, exactly. And I think the movie definitely thinks that the matchmaking and the mathematic approach to long term partnership is evil.
- [23:47]
Sean Fennessy
Is there any truth in it? Like, did you do calculus in your head when you were getting married?
- [23:54]
Amanda Dobbins
No, not at all. But I do also think that Zach and I like a lot of the qualifications that she keeps repeating of, you know, like similar backgrounds, similar education. Like it just, it happened that way. That, that's. Zach and I do actually meet up to the spreadsheet, even if we weren't checking on the list. Same with you and your wife.
- [24:13]
Sean Fennessy
We went to high school together. So. Yeah. I mean, we have tremendously similar backgrounds.
- [24:16]
Amanda Dobbins
Exactly.
- [24:17]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah.
- [24:18]
Amanda Dobbins
So. But no, I didn't, I didn't do the checklist. And I think I was pretty pissed off the first year when I realized that I had to file taxes with Zach. I remember this. I do, yeah. Cause I was like, no, no, no, no. It's. I, I didn't think about it as forming a business and I didn't want to form a business.
- [24:36]
Sean Fennessy
You wanted individuated Amanda Industries.
- [24:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, I do. I wanted my own business. Like we still have separate bank accounts, you know, like this, all of this stuff. But you know, you go through and you learn that it actually you did form a corporation.
- [24:49]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. I would love to see her sequel to this. It kind of explores that. I think they would be really interesting. I. I think some of, some of the exploration of this idea was a little overwrought. Like at a certain point we're kind of 90 minutes into the movie and she's still doing. Yeah, the kind of like, well, by my calculations approach to this, which just. I understand why it's like schematic way to kind of follow the story all the way through. But the, the idea itself of could you hire someone to help you find this thing that you're looking for, but then more specifically, what's really inside people who can't find what they're looking for is something that is an aspect of the movie. It's a smaller aspect than Lucy's quest to figure out whether or not she wants to be with either of these guys. But Zoe Winters, who people probably best know as Logan, Roy's assistant, come lover in succession, please, pun intended, plays a one of one of Lucy's clients. A I would say somewhat desperate 39 year old woman who is sort of ordinary in every way, per Lucy's description that she is like not great at anything, but not bad at anything. All of her attributes and characteristics are nice. They're good. And that lack of specialness that Dasha Nekrasova from Red Scare talks about her so funny to me that Dash is.
- [26:12]
Amanda Dobbins
Just in movies now. Podcasters can be anything. You know, the smartest guys have a mobile network.
- [26:17]
Sean Fennessy
You know, like congratulations to them. They really made it. I'm super happy.
- [26:20]
Amanda Dobbins
Should we start a mobile network?
- [26:22]
Sean Fennessy
I don't really know what that is.
- [26:23]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't really either. Is it just like poor Jack has to go and like connect people's calls, like operator style?
- [26:29]
Sean Fennessy
I don't wish that on Jack.
- [26:31]
Amanda Dobbins
Maybe it could just be a service that's like, don't make this phone call. Which would be my advice.
- [26:35]
Sean Fennessy
Would you. Would you consider an advice service where you took one call per week from a listener and you just gave them.
- [26:42]
Amanda Dobbins
You dear.
- [26:42]
Sean Fennessy
Abbed them a thousand percent? You would do that?
- [26:44]
Amanda Dobbins
Oh, my God.
- [26:45]
Sean Fennessy
And there's next week's episode.
- [26:47]
Amanda Dobbins
That is so good at it.
- [26:49]
Sean Fennessy
Okay, so we don't have an episode for next week because we were gonna do this movie and Life of Chuck.
- [26:54]
Amanda Dobbins
Together, and now we're combining.
- [26:56]
Sean Fennessy
And I saw both movies and I was like, I feel like these movies fit together.
- [26:58]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes, they do.
- [26:59]
Sean Fennessy
So I wanted to go live on Monday just for like an hour and 90 minutes and just like, be in the chat. But if we did, like the advice episode. Yeah, I think that would be funny. Bobby. I mean, Bobby. Jesus Christ, Jack. Do you think we could do that?
- [27:11]
C
I think we could make it work.
- [27:13]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm. I mean, I feel. I feel really connected to our listeners right now. The nice ones, anyway. And. And like. And really ready.
- [27:23]
Sean Fennessy
You can Dear Abby it.
- [27:24]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [27:25]
Sean Fennessy
Jack, do you think you need to navigate what we answer or are we looking at the chat while we're live? I think I should probably.
- [27:32]
Amanda Dobbins
I think, throw you some bones.
- [27:33]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that probably makes sense. Okay, well, that could. There's going to be a lot of guys in the comments being like, sean, sign my Blu Ray. So, yeah, we got a shout out to those guys. We love you.
- [27:43]
Amanda Dobbins
I just want to see skin care questions. Jack, are allowed. Okay.
- [27:49]
Sean Fennessy
I don't know about that. Absolutely.
- [27:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Anyhow, did you see that Chris shared his.
- [27:52]
Sean Fennessy
I haven't listened yet, but I will.
- [27:54]
Amanda Dobbins
It was amazing. He went and got every single product check out jam session.
- [27:57]
Sean Fennessy
How many products does he have?
- [27:59]
Amanda Dobbins
He had at least four to show. And then I had to follow up about sunscreen. Are you wearing sunscreen?
- [28:06]
Sean Fennessy
There's SPF in my moisturizer, but that's the only thing I put on every day.
- [28:10]
Amanda Dobbins
That's good.
- [28:10]
Sean Fennessy
Little dime of moisturizer. That's it. Spf.
- [28:13]
Amanda Dobbins
There you go.
- [28:15]
Sean Fennessy
I got a lot of sunburn at Disneyland and Legoland last week, I gotta tell you. Let's go back to Zoe Winters. Okay, that scene's really funny, where they're talking about how she's kind of unspectacularly fine, but that character becomes tragic because as the story goes on, she's in her attempts to kind of find someone, anyone, who will click with this woman. He sets her up with this guy Mark P. And it turns out that.
- [28:40]
Amanda Dobbins
Mark P. Is number One voiced never seen and voiced only voiced by John.
- [28:47]
Sean Fennessy
Magaro, instantaneously recognized him.
- [28:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. And I got to see this movie with Rob Mahoney and Jimin, which was really fun. And the moment you heard his voice, Joanne was like, oh, it's John McGarr. You know, it was just a very exciting. And then the movie went on. Would you like to share what happens from there?
- [29:06]
Sean Fennessy
Unfortunately, this is not the John Magara of past lives. This is the Mark P. Of materialists. And he assaults Zoe Winters character on their date when she goes to the bathroom. And Lucy, while she's kind of entrenched in this relationship with Pedro Pascal's character and she's trying to figure out, like, who she is, she eagerly, like, seeks out Lucy's approval on Mark, doesn't hear back from him or doesn't hear back from her. She calls Mark. We hear Don Magaro's voice. He's like, yeah, it was like. It was a good. I think I would see her again.
- [29:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. I don't know if it'll be serious.
- [29:39]
Sean Fennessy
And immediately we're like, okay, something's wrong here.
- [29:41]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:42]
Sean Fennessy
And we learn that he has assaulted her from her boss, played by Marin Ireland. How wonderful to see Marin Ireland not in a terrible horror movie. I'm used to seeing her having her eyes gouged out by a demon. And in this case, she's just a boss. Yes. So, you know, Zoe Winters character decides to sue the matchmaking service that Lucy works for. And then this sends Lucy into a kind of a tailspin of, like, is what I'm doing wrong? Is everything about my life wrong? What is love? Is this pointless? Is this hopeless? And that, I would say, even more so than the will she pick him or will she pick him? Feels like the narrative thrust of the movie. I'm not sure that I ultimately got to the conclusion of that feeling, though. Like, is by choosing the person that she chooses. And we can get into Chris Evans momentarily. Does that answer the crisis that she's having in the second act of this movie?
- [30:34]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, I think the film thinks it does. I don't think this is handled particularly well, and I think it's valid to open up all the questions and, like, what am I doing? And is everything wrong? But the resolution. And again, spoilers, is that after not being in touch, the Zoe Winters character calls Dakota Johnson because the, you know, faceless Mark P. Mark P. Is outside her apartment, and she's terrified and, like, doesn't know know who else to call or to help her. So Lucy Answers the call, goes with Chris, Evan, like, helps, you know, helps her get a restraining order. But, you know, which is. Which is all good. But then in the movie, it's like that event is what leads her to really, you know, reconcile, like, Aaron Best and Chris Evans. And there's a little bit of, like, implied cause and effect of like, oh, this person had to be assaulted in order for you to, like, choose love. That was maybe not even intended, but to me, doesn't. Didn't sit right.
- [31:54]
Sean Fennessy
I. I think that that is definitely a little bit messy. The. When I was watching it, what I struggled with was just a very simple straining of credulity around. Why would this woman call Lucy? She literally says on the phone, I don't have any friends in the city.
- [32:10]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [32:10]
Sean Fennessy
I'm like, why do you live in the city? What do you even. What, you don't know anybody except this woman whose company you're suing? This is the only person who can come and help you in this moment of need? Yeah, that just seemed pretty crazy.
- [32:21]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, just like a.
- [32:22]
Sean Fennessy
Just a gaping plot hole where I was like, huh? You just took me out of the movie by saying that out loud. You know what I mean?
- [32:27]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, I mean, that's all valid. I mean, then that, you know, they race back from the.
- [32:33]
Sean Fennessy
At the site of your wedding?
- [32:34]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, at the site of my wedding.
- [32:36]
Sean Fennessy
And then what town was that in?
- [32:39]
Amanda Dobbins
So I don't remember. I remember.
- [32:41]
Sean Fennessy
What?
- [32:41]
Amanda Dobbins
The event. The.
- [32:42]
Sean Fennessy
No, no, your wedding.
- [32:43]
Amanda Dobbins
No, I know.
- [32:43]
Sean Fennessy
You don't know the name of the town that you were married in.
- [32:45]
Amanda Dobbins
No, because it wasn't even a town. It was called Handsome Hollow is the event space. So shout out. Kate, who runs Handsome Hollow, did an amazing job.
- [32:52]
Sean Fennessy
No free ads.
- [32:53]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, no free ads. But I don't know, it was like Western Catskills sort of. Remember? I mean, you were there.
- [33:01]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah.
- [33:01]
Amanda Dobbins
But you stayed in the Airbnb next door, so you didn't have to do anything.
- [33:05]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, that was awesome.
- [33:06]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, it was nice. It was a fun wedding.
- [33:07]
Sean Fennessy
Very fun wedding.
- [33:10]
Amanda Dobbins
But that. That she would, like, immediately be led into. You know, I had, like, security concerns. I'm like, why are you buzzing this random person into your home if there's someone else outside? You know what I mean? And then you're just, like, going to hang outside on the stoop and make mooney eyes at Chris Evans. I don't know.
- [33:28]
Sean Fennessy
I thought the movie was, if not tight. I found it to be very controlled all the way up until they went up to the wedding upstate. And then the Movie kind of gets a little bit loose in how it kind of wraps itself up. And it's hard because this is a framework that if it's not Jane Austen, it's Hollywood convention is our expectation. And it wants to subvert it, but it knows that it can't because we've already set up this Chris Evans character in the way that we have. So let's just talk about Chris Evans quickly.
- [33:54]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [33:54]
Sean Fennessy
He's been taking an absolute beating on this podcast for about two years.
- [33:57]
Amanda Dobbins
From you?
- [33:57]
Sean Fennessy
From me. It's because I believe in him and I really want better for him and I really like him. And I see him. I've seen him in a couple of interviews with Dakota Johnson for this press tour, and I'm like, he's clearly like a cool, smart guy, kind of a simple guy.
- [34:12]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [34:13]
Sean Fennessy
Which is okay.
- [34:13]
Amanda Dobbins
Did you see the clip of their non negotiables for dating irl? So his is and literally must love dogs. I don't know if he knows that. That's a 2000.
- [34:21]
Sean Fennessy
He's just a bro.
- [34:22]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. Must love dogs. And then Dakota Johnson says, like, don't be an asshole, which was live on the Today show. So amazing. She gets in a little trouble. Ok. Yeah.
- [34:31]
Sean Fennessy
Good rule, though.
- [34:32]
Amanda Dobbins
All right.
- [34:32]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. I think his character in this movie is fine. I think his performance is very good. I think it, like, it really utilizes his charms very well, which is that he's this incredibly handsome guy, but has like a little, like a little low hum of loser energy that he can access. And part of why I have not enjoyed him in movies in the last few years is because he keeps taking parts where he's like, I'm the hero, and it's really boring. And he was a good Captain America because he's like the wimp at the beginning of the movie. And then he utilizes his Evans ness to become a superhero.
- [35:08]
Amanda Dobbins
I agree. I think that he. And I like Dakota Johnson. I like Pedro Pascal. I'm sorry, but in contrast to the other two, he is, like, very emotionally forward.
- [35:19]
Sean Fennessy
Yes.
- [35:20]
Amanda Dobbins
And there are a lot of shots of him not saying anything and just giving him the longing puppy dogs and stare. And it works every time.
- [35:29]
Sean Fennessy
Totally agree.
- [35:30]
Amanda Dobbins
He's so good at it. And I, like, can't I respond and just kind of swoon to it? And so. And in some ways that's in the text. Right. Because he is the emotional choice versus Harry, the Pedro Pascal character, who is the financial choice. But, you know, movies are an emotional medium, and so you do find yourself responding. He's wonderful.
- [35:50]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. I think the movie is very intentionally not letting you really get too close to Harry Potter, but it kind of hurts the movie because you never feel like it's ever going to be Harry at any time when you're watching it. So that desire that you want when you're having when you're watching a movie like this to kind of figure out where our. Our hero, our star, our lead is leaning never really exists. Because when she's shooting Chris Evans sitting on the ground outside of a bodega on the phone, you're like, God, I hope he gets what he wants. Gosh, he's a really. He's a portal of empathy.
- [36:19]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. She shoots his apartment really well also. It's so gross and so familiar.
- [36:24]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, we've been there.
- [36:25]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean.
- [36:26]
Sean Fennessy
Oh, I. I'm so happy to be not living in New York City.
- [36:29]
Amanda Dobbins
Uh, I'm so glad to no longer be dating men with roommates.
- [36:34]
Sean Fennessy
Did you ever date a guy who lived in Sunset Park? Apparently, that's where he lived.
- [36:37]
Amanda Dobbins
Um, no, though, I think. I mean, Zach was like, south. South Park Slope.
- [36:45]
Sean Fennessy
He was. He was in Greenpoint when he and I became friends.
- [36:47]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. But like. But by the time I met him, no roommates, so that was good.
- [36:51]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. Yeah. He had a nice apartment. I liked his apartment. I think that Evans is good in this. He obviously has less to do and is less of the focus of the movie. I certainly feel like I've also seen that absolutely terrible Off Broadway play he was performing in a couple times in a warehouse somewhere on the outskirts of Brooklyn. That just feels like a world that she really knows and a person that she really knows. And that was part of what I was responding to, that it was just like a little bit more lived in, a little bit more naturalized, as opposed to this sort of. I can feel her moving the chess pieces a little bit with Dakota Johnson and Harry and the private Equity world. And let's talk briefly about the Harry character. There's a big reveal about this character, which I think is. Actually. I thought it was pretty good.
- [37:32]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. And it was funny. It was funny in. I was in a packed screening because there's real anticipation for this movie. And it was funny to clock everyone realizing in real time. And as soon as I saw, I was like, oh, of course. Because it's, you know, Chekhov's height surgery is too weird.
- [37:54]
Sean Fennessy
Earlier in the film, there's a discussion about the fact between Dasha's character and Lucy about how men can have a surgery to lengthen their legs and become taller. And this movie is very interested in the idea of what height means to a man.
- [38:10]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. And which I think it. And. And in many ways, height as like their financial. It literally their capital.
- [38:17]
Sean Fennessy
It's a status builder, for sure.
- [38:19]
Amanda Dobbins
Which I think is pretty true. So I. You know.
- [38:22]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, I guess so.
- [38:23]
Amanda Dobbins
It is. It's. It's just like. I'm. I'm sorry to say. And anyway, so it is revealed that Harry, the Pedro Pascal character, has in fact had this height surgery. Six. Six inches, he says. And there is one fantastic shot at the end of that scene where he crouches down and it kind of pulls back and wide and you see how much shorter than. And it's like, very effective.
- [38:49]
Sean Fennessy
And this conversation in the kitchen, when it becomes clear that they're not gonna be together, that Lucy has made the choice that she can't be with him because she doesn't love him. And she knows that he doesn't love her. But that they have come to this conclusion that they should be together was the most James L. Brooks to me in the movie. Yeah, this was the closest I thought. Cause it felt very true. And it felt like where she's driving the whole time, where she's like, I know. I'm getting to this scene where they need to have this conversation. And she had landed on this idea of lengthening your legs as that being like a checkable box. And this being his fatal flaw, his Achilles heel. His. Like, his ancient wound is he's a short guy, and he's got short guy energy and he can't get around it. And that being a psychological blocker. Me, I couldn't relate. You know, just not something I understand.
- [39:36]
Amanda Dobbins
You have tall guy privilege and you walk around with it every day and you really.
- [39:40]
Sean Fennessy
I do. What must that be like? I don't know.
- [39:42]
Amanda Dobbins
Congratulations.
- [39:43]
Sean Fennessy
But I thought it was really clever. I like this part of the reveal. I like that this is how they kind of work.
- [39:48]
Amanda Dobbins
And it was fun. Like, people gasped in the screening, which is pretty funny. And as soon as I saw, I was like, all right, this is clever.
- [39:53]
Sean Fennessy
It was good.
- [39:54]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, no, it's good.
- [39:57]
Sean Fennessy
One other thing I want to note is I love the music in this movie.
- [39:59]
Amanda Dobbins
So good.
- [40:01]
Sean Fennessy
Incredible needle drops. Like, really tasteful. Like in my brain, needle drops. Cat power. Harry Nilsson. There's a Daniel Pemberton score that is very elegant and subtle and doesn't overdo it. The music, I think, is the thing that immediately clued me into what kind of a movie it is. Like, as soon as you get that kind of Wide shot in New York of people, the crowds moving down the city streets, and you hear the cap power Manhattan needle drop. I was like, oh, this is like a Mike Nichols movie.
- [40:28]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [40:29]
Sean Fennessy
This isn't a Nora Ephron movie. You know what I mean? Like, it's just. There's just something different energy wise. And I'm ultimately grateful for that. I wish the story was told a little bit differently. And I. Who is a different. Who's an actress who would be better in this part?
- [40:44]
Amanda Dobbins
Who's an actor who would be better against Dakota Johnson?
- [40:46]
Sean Fennessy
I don't. It's like a rude thing to do, but I couldn't. Watching it, I couldn't help but try to get my head around who would be more engaging as a dramatic performer. Because there's a great moment in the movie where we've just seen John's performance of his play. They go to a dingy Brooklyn bar afterwards. Harry in his, like, rich guy sort of dressed down outfit. Lucy being supportive of John. Lucy and John are having a conversation at the bar and they're talking about acting. And she says, I always love to watch you act. And then Lucy's character says, I was never any good at it. I don't know how to talk. I don't know how to stand. And I was, in my deepest mind, was like, is Celine's song. Is she making fun of Dakota Johnson? Is she making fun of me? Thinking this about Dakota Johnson? Is Dakota Johnson being self aware about some of the feelings about her kind of like affectless distance as a performer?
- [41:40]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [41:41]
Sean Fennessy
I don't know. But it was unmistakable. That scene is in the movie where she's. Her character's like, I can't act.
- [41:47]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [41:48]
Sean Fennessy
Which is something. I've been thinking about her for five years.
- [41:49]
Amanda Dobbins
She does have incredible presence, though.
- [41:52]
Sean Fennessy
I agree.
- [41:53]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm trying to think of what actor could really. I mean, the answer to your question is Jennifer Lawrence. You know, which is the. Which is the answer for every single under, you know, 30 to 35.
- [42:03]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. That would be interesting.
- [42:05]
Amanda Dobbins
And she.
- [42:06]
Sean Fennessy
I used to think she couldn't do this kind of thing, but now I think she can.
- [42:09]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, she can. She's all emotion, you know.
- [42:13]
Sean Fennessy
Do you think they went to her?
- [42:15]
Amanda Dobbins
Maybe.
- [42:16]
Sean Fennessy
Seems possible.
- [42:19]
Amanda Dobbins
Who is. Is the man? Is the. Is the question for me.
- [42:25]
Sean Fennessy
What if it was Brad Cooper?
- [42:28]
Amanda Dobbins
Oh, wow. I could see it a little older. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:33]
Sean Fennessy
You know?
- [42:34]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [42:34]
Sean Fennessy
Needs to make a move.
- [42:35]
Amanda Dobbins
That's a good one. Okay.
- [42:37]
Sean Fennessy
Just.
- [42:37]
Amanda Dobbins
It's good there.
- [42:40]
Sean Fennessy
What could have been. I like Chris Evans, where he is. I think there are some people who are listening right now who are like, Pedro Pascal's my favorite actor. And they're very upset with you.
- [42:47]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, that's what, you know, what's new?
- [42:50]
Sean Fennessy
We've talked about how. We talked about in the 35 over 35 episode, how this is a big summer for him.
- [42:55]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes.
- [42:56]
Sean Fennessy
You know that he's got this movie and soon Eddington, and then Fantastic Four first steps. So you think he's over one thus far in his quest to become a big star?
- [43:06]
Amanda Dobbins
I think he's miscast, the same way that you think Dakota Johnson is miscast. He has presence, and I've liked him in other things, and I am going to see both of those films.
- [43:13]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, I definitely like him more than you.
- [43:15]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [43:15]
Sean Fennessy
I don't know if he's perfect for this movie, but I like being with him in movies and tv.
- [43:22]
Amanda Dobbins
I think I do, too. I just think that he's wrong in this part.
- [43:27]
Sean Fennessy
You know, I was going to ask this about the next movie that we're going to do, but does this movie have any, like, awards chance? I don't really think so, but I like an original screenplay nomination out there, possibly, like, what could be a hit.
- [43:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. And I'm. I know I was out last night and like, two separate people who have babysitters lined up to go on date night to see this movie opening weekend. So I think there is, like, a core group of people who are excited about it and maybe people will respond differently than. So far, at least the critical response is, I would say, positive.
- [43:59]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah.
- [43:59]
Amanda Dobbins
But like, with heavy notes.
- [44:02]
Sean Fennessy
Which is what we just did.
- [44:03]
Amanda Dobbins
Which is what we just did.
- [44:04]
Sean Fennessy
Jack, is this, like, high on your radar? Very high. I reached out to Amanda to try to see it early. Unfortunately, timing didn't allow it because I was in Colorado, but. Yeah, I mean, Past Lives was a huge movie for my girlfriend and I. Okay. Yeah, I guess.
- [44:16]
Amanda Dobbins
How'd you guys meet? Are you willing to share that on the podcast?
- [44:19]
Sean Fennessy
Sure, I'm willing to share that. In high school, my girl best friend went to a camp called Girl State. They actually made a documentary, Age 24, Boys State. They met there because my girlfriend now was roommates with a girl who went to high school with my best friend. And they met and clicked because they thought the whole thing was incredibly ridiculous.
- [44:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay, great.
- [44:39]
Sean Fennessy
And then this was during the senior.
- [44:40]
C
Year of high school.
- [44:40]
Sean Fennessy
So over the summer, lots of grad parties, and we just met at grad parties.
- [44:45]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay. So through people.
- [44:46]
Sean Fennessy
Yes.
- [44:46]
Amanda Dobbins
All right. And also, you're dating a girl, stayed alone.
- [44:50]
Sean Fennessy
That is true.
- [44:50]
Amanda Dobbins
That's pretty rad.
- [44:51]
Sean Fennessy
That's fascinating.
- [44:52]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [44:52]
Sean Fennessy
Maybe we'll get into that in the future, Jack. So no Oscar stuff, but we think this is gonna be like kind of a mid level hit.
- [45:01]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, I think in this screenplay mix maybe I'm excited about.
- [45:06]
Sean Fennessy
You know, this is now the third movie in a row that Justin Karitzkis and the Celine Song union has created.
- [45:14]
Amanda Dobbins
About a guy from the house versus a more practical, modern choice. Yeah.
- [45:22]
Sean Fennessy
What's going on there?
- [45:23]
Amanda Dobbins
I also noted it as when we left.
- [45:24]
Sean Fennessy
What's happening?
- [45:25]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't know. Write what you know.
- [45:28]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. How many times can you write it? How many times can you explore this?
- [45:32]
Amanda Dobbins
Maybe we'll find out. Honestly. Here's the thing though. Are we gonna do our top five? Cause we'll watch it every single time. So I think it's great.
- [45:39]
Sean Fennessy
I think if you're as good a writer as those two, then absolutely.
- [45:42]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, the thing that's interesting to me about Celine's Song is that. So she was also a matchmaker in addition to having this long lost. Because Past Lives was also pretty autobiographical, as I understood. So I mean, she just seems like she's living a cooler life than me.
- [45:57]
Sean Fennessy
Well, her other thing is when she was on the show a couple years ago, by the way, great guest. If you didn't listen to that, if you've seen Past Lives since then, I encourage you to go back. She was such a. Such a cool person to talk to, but she was like, what I really want to do is write a movie about poker. I'm really into poker. And I was like, you are the coolest person I've ever met. So yeah, she's a real.
- [46:15]
Amanda Dobbins
What are we doing?
- [46:16]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. Okay. Movie love triangles. Now just quickly, do you see this as a love triangle, this movie? Like in the classical sense?
- [46:22]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, it's a. Who should she choose?
- [46:24]
Sean Fennessy
Okay.
- [46:24]
Amanda Dobbins
Which is sort of the setup. Um. And yeah. So yes.
- [46:30]
Sean Fennessy
Okay, let's do our list that we, we. We share a number one.
- [46:34]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [46:34]
Sean Fennessy
And it's come up already. But let's, let's, let's number five. Go ahead.
- [46:37]
Amanda Dobbins
Past Lives.
- [46:38]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah.
- [46:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Really, really great. Don't forget that. And I also just really did want to point out that this is. There's a continuous theme here in Celine Song's movies and also her husband's work. Her husband I is a very nice guy also, by the way. And a good interview on this show.
- [46:52]
Sean Fennessy
Also a guest of this show. Did she choose correctly in that film?
- [46:58]
Amanda Dobbins
In Past lives?
- [46:59]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah.
- [47:00]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, I think so.
- [47:01]
Sean Fennessy
Okay. It's a tough one. My number five is Fight Club.
- [47:06]
Amanda Dobbins
I think this is really funny.
- [47:08]
Sean Fennessy
I don't think I really understood until somewhat recently that that's what this movie is really about. It's like, should I decide to be in a committed relations relationship or not? And if I don't, should I be an agent of anarchy? Which is just a really. When you're 17, you don't get. All you can get is the angst. All you can get is the why is the consumerist nightmare world this way? But this is. Should I just decide to put a ring on that girl's finger? That girl who loves to go to meetings about colon cancer? I think it's very funny to view it through that lens. Okay, what's your number four?
- [47:49]
Amanda Dobbins
Another recent topic on this show, Something's Gotta Give, which I did kind of approach this exercise under the thought umbrella of what are my most like, oh, maybe she should have chosen the other guy movies of all time. Because that is like the success of a love triangle in some ways that both are like real candidates.
- [48:09]
Sean Fennessy
Yes.
- [48:09]
Amanda Dobbins
So obviously Keanu Reeves, the faceless Hamptons doctor who you insulted on this podcast and who I just Not a real person. Well, yeah, but it is like a real can we can. It's. It's powerful.
- [48:22]
Sean Fennessy
We'd all like to have sex with that guy. There's no question about it. But also beyond that, what is going on with that guy?
- [48:27]
Amanda Dobbins
Do you think he would have a nice life with him? He's a doctor in the Hamptons and he likes plays and Paris.
- [48:34]
Sean Fennessy
He just is not real. I don't know what to say. He's just a complete fantasy written by a brilliant middle aged woman. And, you know, no disrespect to her.
- [48:45]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [48:46]
Sean Fennessy
We all. I'd love to encounter what is my version of Keanu Reeves wandering into my life out of nowhere? You know, like, we all have that thing. Sure. And I respect that she created that thing. It's a great pick. My number four is burning, which is a 2018 Lee Chong Dong movie, South Korean film about a guy who gets entrenched in a very complicated world driven by kind of like trickster devil figure played by Steven Yun. And it's like, it's a little bit unclear, like, how much of it is actually a love triangle. But the movie is very good at focusing in, on, like, when you're competing against another guy and the other guy just has moves that you don't have.
- [49:30]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [49:30]
Sean Fennessy
And you can see the Woman responding to the other guy. And you're spending time together, the three of you. Not all of these movies are about, like, we're all together at the same time. In fact, they're never together at time the same. At the same time. But there's this. There's that. There's a famous scene in this movie where they get high and they're sort of standing outside and they're like, looking up at the sky, and you can see that, you know, Yoo Ah in and Jeong Jeong. So. And Steven Yun, like, have this very fraught chemistry together. And the movie popped into my mind immediately when I was thinking of this idea. So that's burning.
- [50:03]
Amanda Dobbins
That's a good one.
- [50:04]
Sean Fennessy
Okay, number three for you.
- [50:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Reality Bites. An absolute classic and also a real marker of your own age and your own view of the world. Because in your 20s, obviously, Ethan Hawke is the choice. And then you get to your 30s, you get to your Lucy materialist phase, and you're just like, well, Ben Stiller has a job and a car, and he shows up when he says he does. And the editing wasn't that bad. Sometimes you do kind of need an editor. And then now that I'm in my 40s, I'm back to it's. You got to do Ethan Hawke again.
- [50:40]
Sean Fennessy
Interesting.
- [50:40]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. Which is like a new.
- [50:42]
Sean Fennessy
So you had a time where you were into Ben Stiller? Not just that, just what he represents.
- [50:47]
Amanda Dobbins
I was just kind of like. That is like the obvious choice.
- [50:50]
Sean Fennessy
I see.
- [50:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Or that's the practical choice. You know, if you have your Lucy materialist.
- [50:54]
Sean Fennessy
It's interesting, though, because you are not interested in someone that I would say is artless. There is an artlessness to Stiller's character. He, of course, directed the movie, which is very funny that he cast himself in that part. Okay, that's cool. It's good to know. So you're back on your Hawk bullshit.
- [51:12]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, of course.
- [51:13]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. Stay tuned for this podcast.
- [51:14]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Sean Fennessy
In case you want to hear more about that, my number three is Being John Malkovich. Not a lot of movies. Two women and one man.
- [51:23]
Amanda Dobbins
That's true.
- [51:24]
Sean Fennessy
And increasingly fewer movies about two women who want to be together instead of with the man.
- [51:29]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [51:29]
Sean Fennessy
A different kind of construct. But in this case, one of the women needs to go inside the body of a man. Is this a quadrangle? Or is John Cusack just fully cucked out and doesn't have any participation? So it's only between John Malkovich's body, Charlize Theron's. Excuse me, Cameron Diaz's Soul.
- [51:52]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [51:53]
Sean Fennessy
And Kathryn Keener's Verve Desire.
- [51:58]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [51:59]
Sean Fennessy
I don't know.
- [52:00]
Amanda Dobbins
I think John Cusack is on the outside looking in.
- [52:03]
Sean Fennessy
So it is. It is a proper triangle.
- [52:04]
Amanda Dobbins
I think it counts.
- [52:05]
Sean Fennessy
Okay. Being John Malkovich is three. What's your number two?
- [52:08]
Amanda Dobbins
Philadelphia Story. The original, the blueprint for every single one of these. OG Featuring Katharine Hepburn, Cary Grant and Jimmy Stewart and then just, like, fighting each other while she laughs.
- [52:21]
Sean Fennessy
An iconic film. Also iconic. Casablanca.
- [52:24]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm glad you did this one. I was like, I can't do Casablanca because I always.
- [52:27]
Sean Fennessy
I was surprised it would be. It would be an incomplete list without Casablanca. Another interesting question of did she pick. Right.
- [52:33]
Amanda Dobbins
Famously discussed When Harry Met Sally, another movie that is referenced in Materialist, like, pretty explicitly.
- [52:40]
Sean Fennessy
It is. And you know, in our doc, you noted that, like, it uses that tool of into camera confession stuff, which is a really good point. I think the thing that I found to be so different from When Harry Met Sally versus this movie is anytime Billy Crystal talks in that movie, it's funny.
- [52:58]
Amanda Dobbins
Sure.
- [52:58]
Sean Fennessy
He basically always has a line throughout the entire film.
- [53:02]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [53:02]
Sean Fennessy
And Materialist doesn't work that way. It's like, none of these actors are really like, Chris Evans is kind of funny, but he doesn't have a funny part.
- [53:09]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [53:09]
Sean Fennessy
So even though it's using the tools.
- [53:12]
Amanda Dobbins
It'S not a comedy thing. But in the same way that just like When Harry Met Sally is a foundational text of people falling in love on screen and the different ways that you can do it, it is definitely intentionally referenced.
- [53:23]
Sean Fennessy
Okay, I agree with you. What's our number one? We share our number one Broadcast News, obviously.
- [53:28]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. And, you know, I guess it's telling that our number one is the one where she picks herself.
- [53:34]
Sean Fennessy
No, one. That's the whole point. That is why that movie is such a magical. Is there. Are they.
- [53:40]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, Kelly Taylor later on on 902.
- [53:43]
Sean Fennessy
I know.
- [53:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [53:44]
Sean Fennessy
Wow, that's quite a poll.
- [53:46]
Amanda Dobbins
And yeah, there are definitely between. Between Brandon and Jason Priestley and Perry.
- [53:50]
Sean Fennessy
Okay. Wow. Okay.
- [53:51]
Amanda Dobbins
Ultimately, she. I mean, she did you mistake me.
- [53:53]
Sean Fennessy
For Bill simmons with the 90210 drop and.
- [53:55]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, I mean, but Kelly Taylor choosing herself. I think I learned about Kelly Taylor choosing herself before I learned about.
- [54:04]
Sean Fennessy
Sister Carrie. Yeah, no, the works of Theodore Dreiser and Edith Wharton.
- [54:08]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, sure, all of those things, but before I learned about Broadcast News, so.
- [54:12]
Sean Fennessy
Sure. Yeah, me too. What's Jenny Garth up to?
- [54:15]
Amanda Dobbins
You know, I'm so glad you asked. Have you noticed that she's sponsoring this stretch of the 134 right by our house. I swear to God. Like the Adopt a Highway thing, it just says Jenny Garth. And every time I drive by, I'm like, I want to get a picture. It's just Jenny Garth.
- [54:29]
Sean Fennessy
Just Jenny Garth. Not like family or.
- [54:30]
Amanda Dobbins
No, like, no contact. It's just Jenny Garth.
- [54:32]
Sean Fennessy
Should the big picture sponsor a stretch of highway?
- [54:35]
Amanda Dobbins
I guess we could. I just like, I'm driving always so on the highway, so I can't.
- [54:39]
Sean Fennessy
What stretch of highway would you want to sponsor? What's your favorite place to be stuck in traffic in Los Angeles?
- [54:46]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, it would obviously be a stretch of the two for us.
- [54:48]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, you know, that's our. That's. That is by far my favorite highway. The only good highway in Los Angeles, in my opinion. The only one that isn't fucking destroyed at all times. Okay, this was a great exercise. We have another movie to talk about.
- [55:00]
Amanda Dobbins
We sure do.
- [55:05]
Sean Fennessy
This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. When you release a movie, the first thing you want to do is make sure people know about it. And even more importantly, you want to make sure that people who like the genre know it's out. Because horror fans are more likely to go see new horror movies. Disney fans will go see new Disney movies. Rom com fans will go see new ROM com movies. Targeting the right audience is key when it comes to marketing. If you're selling expensive new kitchen appliances, you probably want to sell to to people who actually like to cook, not people who rely on food delivery services for every meal. And that's the tricky part. Making sure your message gets to the right people. You have to use the right tools. If you're in B2B marketing, that means using LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has a network of over 130 million decision makers and the targeting tools to make sure you're connecting with the right ones. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority skills, or company revenue. So you can stop wasting your time and budget on the wrong people. LinkedIn will even give you a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign. So you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com thebigpicture that's LinkedIn.com thebigpicture Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Just like choosing a movie to stream, State Farm has options to choose from to help you find coverage that best fits your needs. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card One of the most useful things of my life lately has been my Apple Card. It's great for game nights, vacations, just life in general. And applying was so easy and quick. You can apply, see your credit limit offer, and then start using your card in minutes. Do it while you're watching a basketball game and you can start making purchases before halftime even rolls around. I also love how I can get up to 3% daily cash back on every single purchase. That's more money for game tickets. I feel like I scored big time when I started using Apple Card. Applying the wallet app on your iPhone and start using it right away with Apple pay subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more@applecard.com I'm just gonna put this out there. I know that you're not gonna like this movie. I'm okay with that and I'm ready to discuss it with you.
- [57:28]
Amanda Dobbins
You did text me and you said, I am putting this movie that you'll probably hate on the schedule. So I didn't hate it.
- [57:36]
Sean Fennessy
The movie is the Life of Chuck.
- [57:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes. I'm not sure that I would call it a movie.
- [57:42]
Sean Fennessy
Let's explore that.
- [57:43]
Amanda Dobbins
But I would just like to say that parts of whatever it was that I saw were charming to me.
- [57:48]
Sean Fennessy
Okay, I'm happy to hear you say that.
- [57:50]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, most of it was I disagree with, but you know, I was charmed by it.
- [57:53]
Sean Fennessy
Oh, interesting.
- [57:54]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [57:54]
Sean Fennessy
Okay. So the Life of Chuck is, as I said, written and directed by Mike Flanagan. It's based on a Stephen King novella, I guess. Short story, basically from his 2020 compilation if it Bleeds. It stars Tom Hiddleston, Chiwetel Ejifour, Karen Gillan, Mia Sarah, Carl Lumley, Benjamin Pajak, Jacob Tremblay, and Mark Hamill, who still cannot act. We can talk about that. It is ostensibly the story about a man named Chuck Krantz having an experience of life that's kind of your very vague logline. It is a classical Castle Rock production Stephen King story in the mold of. Well, I saw it a second time at the Vista and they did the old trailers ahead of the movie and the trailers that they showed were Stand By Me, the Shawshank Redemption, and the Green Mile. I don't think that this movie has quite the Kind of like canonical importance, especially of those first two. But tonally, there is a certain kind of Stephen King story or book that is different. Parts of Atlantis is a version of this that is different from. From it. Carrie, Salem's Lot, you know, the. The historic horrors that he has written over time. This one is pretty lofty and pretty unusual. And so even you even just saying, is this even a movie? I find really interesting. I actually asked Mike about that because this movie doesn't really have a protagonist. It has a nonlinear structure. It's unclear. And if you don't. If you want to see this movie and don't want to have anything spoiled for you, stop listening right now. For the record, I liked it. It's unclear if it's a death dream, if it's a memory, if it's an anecdote that is being retold, if it is just merely like a kind of a deathbed engagement psychologically. But it opens and I don't even know if you could describe it as reverse order because it's not a linear story.
- [59:56]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, it does say Act 3. So it is trying to signal to you that we're starting at the end here instead of the beginning.
- [60:02]
Sean Fennessy
It does. And Act 3 is. Takes place in a world that is falling apart. It is the literal apocalypse. And we were with Chutel Ejifor's character, and he is a teacher in a local school. And natural disasters are occurring around the world. And it's very clear that things are. We're wrapping things up here on earth. The Internet is going down. Social services is falling apart. Doctors are walking out of hospitals and abandoning patients.
- [60:29]
Amanda Dobbins
Sinkholes are opening up.
- [60:31]
Sean Fennessy
Yes, Just natural. Life is unable to be explored. This is a lot.
- [60:34]
Amanda Dobbins
Pornhub is down.
- [60:35]
Sean Fennessy
Pornhub is down. My favorite part of the movie. David S. Malchin. Really great. The first act of this movie is my favorite part of the movie. Because as I was watching the movie and I never feel this way anymore because of the thousands of films I've seen, I was like, what the hell is going on? Where's Tom Hiddleston? What is this movie? Who is Chuck? What is going Chuck is, you know, communicated in this first act as just a person on a billboard that says. I think it's like, thanks for.
- [61:01]
Amanda Dobbins
Thanks Chuck for 39 great years. 39 years, yes.
- [61:05]
Sean Fennessy
And the characters in the. In this section seem to think he was like a bank employee of some kind who's having some sort of send off. And then that image of him signing off starts appearing on television broadcasts. You Know, on radio broadcasts, he becomes. It's clear that he is kind of the Big brother of this world. And we learned pretty quickly that he's the big brother because this is all happening in his head. That this is like. This is all collections of memories, experiences, people he's met, things he thought he saw jammed together while he's ostensibly on his deathbed.
- [61:37]
Amanda Dobbins
Right. How quickly do we learn that?
- [61:40]
Sean Fennessy
I think by the end of the first act.
- [61:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes. Yeah, yeah. But not like in the first 10 minutes. It's more like 45 minutes in.
- [61:47]
Sean Fennessy
I wanted to ask you how long it took you to kind of figure out what was going on here.
- [61:51]
Amanda Dobbins
I think once they flashed back to Tom Hiddleston on a deathbed, I was like, oh. But before that I did not really know at all. And I just knew that it was like one of the fanciful Stephen King things. So I was like, well, I guess anything could happen. I thought part one was pretty effective. Well, most of it. It was the most emotional. I was stressed out. I thought the evocation of the way the world was falling apart and how they were learning about it and how Chiwetel Ejiofor in particular was thinking about it was upsetting and effective.
- [62:29]
Sean Fennessy
I agree. He's such a good actor. And his. I mean, he's just like me for real, you know, watching TCM at night, drinking whiskey, trying to make sure. Trying to like, pretend everything's fine was very relatable. Karen Gillan, another actress I like who plays his ex, and they're sort of like seeking each other out. And then we come to see that maybe she represents another person that Chuck encountered in his life at a certain point, but maybe it's like a distortion.
- [62:55]
Amanda Dobbins
Right, right.
- [62:56]
Sean Fennessy
You know, like. And so seeing the film a second time, you can see that all of these figures that we meet in this first part represent these little scraps of experience of Chuck's life. And one of the reasons why I think it's so effective is. I completely agree. For a low budget independent movie to render the world falling apart in very subtle and small ways. There's no CGI in this movie. There's no.
- [63:17]
Amanda Dobbins
There's a. There's a little bit at the very end of part one, and it doesn't.
- [63:19]
Sean Fennessy
Look that good, but that's okay for the most part. It's not relying on your kind of like epic Dean Devlin style disaster movie. So I like a lot of that stuff. The film does have narration.
- [63:35]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [63:36]
Sean Fennessy
So I'm not typically a fan of narration in films. I'm Willing to make exceptions. Nick Offerman reads the narration. Much of it is pulled directly from the story.
- [63:46]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes.
- [63:49]
Sean Fennessy
I wanted to ask you if you think this movie is better if you simply remove the narration.
- [63:53]
Amanda Dobbins
1,000%. A disastrous choice, in my opinion. And it's not just like here and there voiceover. He is reading long Chucks. It is verging on audiobook. I was so angry. And I also started dissociating at some point. I mean, it's not how I. I'm not an audiobook person. I am a. I'm a visual learner. So at some point I was like, please stop talking. I'm not even hearing you anymore. You know, And I thought, I understand that it's based on a Stephen King text, but it was doing a lot of telling of the feelings that the movie was. And the actors were doing a much better job showing.
- [64:33]
Sean Fennessy
So I kind of agree. There are a lot of times where you hear his voice and I'm like, you don't have to tell me this.
- [64:37]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. And it just goes on and on and on.
- [64:41]
Sean Fennessy
I think I would have been. I would have been more on board with it if he merely was setting up each chapter for 30 seconds.
- [64:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Sure.
- [64:49]
Sean Fennessy
Of course. The way that you get into a new chapter of a book and you can almost feel the narrator guiding you into this new section.
- [64:55]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [64:55]
Sean Fennessy
You know when you're like, if you're shifting perspectives in a Franzen novel. Right. You're like, oh, now we're over here three years ago with these other people in this family. That would have made sense to me. I think there is just, like, a real overemphasis on it, especially in the final act. We can get to that. The other thing that is just kind of gnawing at me a little bit was that there's this great movie, It's Such a Beautiful Day, that Don Herzfeld, the animator, made some years ago. It was like a collection of three shorter films that he had made, and he put them together. And Herzfeld, the animator who does everything, draws everything, also narrates the movie. And his voice is really close to Nick Offerman's voice. So I was like, does. Has Mike Flanagan seen this? Is this like an homage? Is it an accidental closeness? Because that also is a film about, like, someone's life coming apart. Immortality. Anyway.
- [65:43]
Amanda Dobbins
The narration just, I would add on, really just, like, heightened, like, the TV ness of the filmmaking a little bit for me. Both, you know, more reliant on words and story, but, you know, it's clearly shot on, like, Some, like, weird mall in Vancouver.
- [66:02]
Sean Fennessy
And it has an artificial quality to some of the sets.
- [66:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Right. And it just. And it feels a little Netflix y, which I. You know. And so. And I just.
- [66:13]
Sean Fennessy
Can I tell you something? Seeing it on a struck print at the Vista looked a lot better than seeing it on digital in a screening.
- [66:19]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm sure that that's true, but I think. I do think that the fact that there was just the narration went on and on and on. And so also, you're having to, like, pair images to it. That felt a little bit filler because you're trying to serve the words instead of the image that it just. It stuck out to me.
- [66:37]
Sean Fennessy
I hear what you're saying. The second act is basically like a reverie about Chuck having one magical moment where he encounters a busker on the street in what looks like a fake version of the Santa Monica Pier, I guess. The 8th Street.
- [66:50]
Amanda Dobbins
No, that's like the Vancouver mall that I was talking about. It's like a. It's like an open mall.
- [66:55]
Sean Fennessy
But do they say where it's supposed to be? That's what I was kind of getting at.
- [66:58]
Amanda Dobbins
No.
- [66:58]
Sean Fennessy
Okay. And he encounters this busker, a woman playing drums. And he breaks out into dance. And it's kind of an extended Gene Kelly homage. He eventually has a dance partner, a redheaded woman, much like Karen Gillan is redheaded. And that's it. They dance. They create movie magic for five minutes.
- [67:22]
Amanda Dobbins
It's like the majority of Tom Hiddleston's screen time.
- [67:26]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. He doesn't have a lot of dialogue. They reflect on why they dance with the busker afterwards. And they split the money between them that they earn because they've drawn this incredible crowd because of this amazing dance that they perform. But that's really it. There is a very interesting moment at the end when Hiddleston and the redhead kind of part ways. And Hiddleston sort of has a. He's had a couple of moments of, like, gentle physical distress where he's kind of, like, clutching his head. And you can see he's, like, having a bit of a spell or an episode. And I think this is kind of indicating to us like, he has cancer. Something's wrong. He doesn't know what he does.
- [67:59]
Amanda Dobbins
The narration has let us know.
- [68:00]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. Yeah, that.
- [68:01]
Amanda Dobbins
That's happening a thing.
- [68:03]
Sean Fennessy
I wish they hadn't communicated. And then in the background, I don't know if you clock. Well, you see that certainly the girl on roller skates who appears in the first sequence. And then I noticed that the other Nurse that Karen Gillan worked with. Was sitting.
- [68:15]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes. Was sitting at a table. Sure.
- [68:16]
Sean Fennessy
And there are all these people that you can see. Okay. All of this is, like little. These little strands of his life that are being pulled into his experience. Did you think that that sequence was meant to be something that actually happened or a memory that was distorted of a day that could have been? I couldn't quite determine how we're meant to understand that.
- [68:34]
Amanda Dobbins
I didn't think that hard about it, to be honest. I. Honestly, it didn't. So I guess it didn't engage me in that level. I will say I was incredibly charred by it.
- [68:44]
Sean Fennessy
It's really good.
- [68:45]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. Listen, get some dancing on screen. I was like, oh, this is why it won the audience award at Toronto. Yes, it's great.
- [68:52]
Sean Fennessy
It's a happy making moment in the movie. And a movie that is otherwise, like, full of Walt Whitman and, you know, exploration of sadness.
- [68:58]
Amanda Dobbins
And the world ending.
- [68:59]
Sean Fennessy
Yes.
- [69:00]
Amanda Dobbins
In plausible ways.
- [69:01]
Sean Fennessy
I like this part too. Act one. It loses me a little bit because I think because it is protracted and it is defined by a lot of that narration. And then you've got these long stretches of time transpiring where the Chuck character is going from, like, 7 to 11. And he's spending a lot of time with his grandparents because we learned that his parents have died in a car crash. His mother was pregnant with a little girl when they died. And a lot of time is spent with Mia Sara and Mark Hamill, who play his grandparents. Mia Sarah, film icon, truly a magical force in movies that I think has only appeared in four films. It was really nice to see her as beautiful as ever. People, you know, listeners may know her from Ferris Bueller's Day off or from. Oh, my God, what's the other one that I'm forgetting? We were just talking about this on the Tom Cruise Legend and I thought she was very good in this movie. Mark Hamill, I can't. Mark Hamill, you know, is an obsession amongst multiple generations of people. There are certainly the Bill Simmons, Amanda Dobbins school people that think Mark Hamill can't act. Right. There are other people who think that Mark Hamill has kind of settled into Grouch par excellence. That's kind of what he does. He has a very craggy voice. He's a very famous voice actor now. For years, he voiced the Joker on the Batman animated series. That's one of his most famous performances now in his career. He plays a drunken account grandpa in this movie. And when Mia Sarah's drunken Account Grandpa. Yeah. And you know, to our point about math and the balance between love and the stars and the cold hard facts of decision making in Materialists, this is where these two movies kind of come and meet. And the same ways they kind of like, don't quite finish. To me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This movie is. I wrote down that it's very wet. Some movies are dry.
- [71:04]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [71:04]
Sean Fennessy
You know.
- [71:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [71:05]
Sean Fennessy
You know what I mean.
- [71:06]
Amanda Dobbins
I know what you mean.
- [71:06]
Sean Fennessy
Steve Jobs, the movie. Steve Jobs. That movie is dry.
- [71:09]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes.
- [71:10]
Sean Fennessy
It's quick, it's got pace. It barely catches its breath. It's smooth. Everything flies. This movie sits in its feelings and it's really soggy.
- [71:23]
Amanda Dobbins
Has so many of them. Yeah, yeah.
- [71:25]
Sean Fennessy
It wants you to cry. And you might cry.
- [71:27]
Amanda Dobbins
I didn't. But it did elicit emotional reaction for me. And not just like anger that Nick Offerman wouldn't stop talking. But it does. It has that pull. It gets you in certain places. Both the cataclysmic stuff at the beginning and the dancing. There is another dance sequence. And you know, despite myself.
- [71:49]
Sean Fennessy
You enjoyed it.
- [71:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Of course I did.
- [71:51]
Sean Fennessy
Well, we learn in this final sequence that Mia Sara's character introduces Chuck to classic movie musicals. Which is why we see at the beginning of the movie Chiwetel ezefour watching the 1941 movie Cover Girl. Great. Gene Kelly, Rita Hayworth movie. Rita Hayworth, a redhead. And that movie kind of like pops up at the beginning of the movie. We see that that is. It is the least known of the all time classics in the blockbuster stack in this movie, which I think includes west side Story, Singing in the Rain, Singing in the Rain, all that jazz and cabaret.
- [72:25]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes.
- [72:26]
Sean Fennessy
And then the fifth film that they watch is CoverGirl. Is CoverGirl. And we see that Mia Sarah's character teaches Chuck how to dance. He's pretty good at dancing and that is kind of his superpower when he goes to middle school and how he gets the attention of girls and how he can kind of be his best.
- [72:41]
Amanda Dobbins
That and also that maybe he can see the future or he at least knows the dances ahead of time.
- [72:47]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. Which then plays a part in the end of the movie. Is it that he invents it or that he's just copying what he's seen? That was my impression. Well, but you think he invents it.
- [72:57]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, they have never seen it before. So I think that he has some sort of future dance site.
- [73:05]
Sean Fennessy
I hadn't considered this.
- [73:06]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, I mean, the Mark Hamill character has some sort of future site and he.
- [73:10]
Sean Fennessy
Yes, he does.
- [73:11]
Amanda Dobbins
I Think. And it is like, when they're doing.
- [73:13]
Sean Fennessy
I didn't know it applied to dance. I thought it just applied to death.
- [73:17]
Amanda Dobbins
Like, the first dance scene that the dance class. He knows every single dance, like, instinctively. That's how they present it.
- [73:25]
Sean Fennessy
It's true.
- [73:26]
Amanda Dobbins
And it does seem like this is the 80s. It seems like it is pre Moonwalk. And they're all like, what are you doing?
- [73:34]
Sean Fennessy
So you think this movie is Minority Report for dancing? I mean, it's a good take.
- [73:40]
Amanda Dobbins
There are worse interpretations.
- [73:41]
Sean Fennessy
It's a really good take. I think I just agreed to let this movie have me.
- [73:47]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [73:48]
Sean Fennessy
You know, and I think you. You have to do that to enjoy it. And I think it will have a pretty. It'll be really divisive. And I think people are gonna be like, this is treacle crap. And other people are gonna say, no movie touched me more than this one this year. I think, you know, it's like, a lot of things with us. We constantly are talking on the show about, like, films about children, that you just have a different relationship to it now because of the stage of your life that you're in.
- [74:13]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [74:13]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. If you've been through anything that this movie is trying to get at, you're just probably gonna be a little bit more sentimentally open to the earnestness that it is attempting.
- [74:23]
Amanda Dobbins
Right. Or also, if you're. I mean, you're a Stephen King nerd, and so you're like. You are very open to this style of storytelling.
- [74:33]
Sean Fennessy
I am.
- [74:34]
Amanda Dobbins
And this strain of sentimentality and this sort of, like, unexplained supernatural, but it all works out.
- [74:42]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. This is the metaphysical or it doesn't work out.
- [74:44]
Amanda Dobbins
But, you know, we all feel our feelings together, so I think it's totally valid.
- [74:50]
Sean Fennessy
I think it's also very. You know, Flanagan is really interesting. It's very much a part of his mission. This is really, like, in some ways, maybe a movie that explains his mission. Now, he makes. He's made some really gnarly horror movies, but most of those movies, I find, are about the distance between people, like our inability to connect. Gerald's Game is a movie that he made that is also a Stephen King adaptation about a woman who becomes, like. Who's having a sexual sort of BDSM moment with her husband. In the movie, it's Bruce Greenwood and Carla Gugino, and he handcuffs her to the bed, and then he has a heart attack and dies. And she's handcuffed to the bed and she can't move. She can't get out and then it's sort of like everything that goes on in her mind as she thinks back on their relationship, her life, she has this kind of like cosmic LSD style trip through these feelings. And it is a movie that is about like connectivity and its loss. This is the same thing. So as a fan of his and as somebody, I don't really watch a lot of Netflix TV shows. I've watched all of his Netflix TV shows. I like his whole mission, his whole project. So I found myself more open minded. Like when there's a long sequence where horror icon Matthew Lillard shows up as I guess like a local. Is he a construction worker or.
- [76:11]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't know, he's his neighbor.
- [76:12]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. Chew to Elijah 4's neighbor. And he becomes this vessel for just like reciting facts about the end of the world. And when you're watching the movie, you're like, how does he know all this shit? And why doesn't Chiwetel Ejiofor know any of this stuff? How did this happen?
- [76:25]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [76:25]
Sean Fennessy
But then you realize that this is like in your own mind. You've got different spaces where different pockets of information exist. And these people represent these different pockets of yourself. That's just like watching the Haunting of Hill House. We're in a family. Like each person represents a different version, a different memory, a different experience of that family. So I think I'm very, I'm very open to this movie in a way that some people won't be, which I understand.
- [76:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Why don't we have more dancing in movies?
- [76:53]
Sean Fennessy
Well, I don't know. You don't want singing?
- [76:55]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, they didn't really sing in. This is great.
- [76:58]
Sean Fennessy
It occurred to me while watching it, I was like, I think a man is going to like this because no one broke out into song.
- [77:03]
Amanda Dobbins
If they sang like good or inoffensive songs, it would be okay. I mean, as we have discussed most new musicals.
- [77:11]
Sean Fennessy
What's a good inoffensive song you want sung in a movie?
- [77:15]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, I don't mind singing in the rain, you know.
- [77:17]
Sean Fennessy
Okay.
- [77:18]
Amanda Dobbins
Make Em Laugh is okay.
- [77:19]
Sean Fennessy
But only songs from older musicals. You don't want like Espresso to be sung.
- [77:24]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, I think if the arrangement were okay, that that would be funny, but I don't really think. I guess Mamma Mia, when they're singing those songs, that's part of the joke. You still have not seen Mamma Mia, right?
- [77:35]
Sean Fennessy
I haven't seen Mamma Mia. No. I have to tell you something about that. You just reminded me of something. But I can't talk about it on the show. Okay. What about if they just started singing Addison Rae songs?
- [77:47]
Amanda Dobbins
I haven't listened yet. Have you?
- [77:49]
Sean Fennessy
I have, yeah.
- [77:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Oh, how are they?
- [77:51]
Sean Fennessy
It's fine. I think there's, like, a real crazy grade curve thing going on here where people are like, oh, this isn't bad.
- [77:56]
Amanda Dobbins
Right? Right.
- [77:57]
Sean Fennessy
Influencer made a pop album. That's okay. Perhaps we should give it a 9 out of 10 and just like, same old bullshit.
- [78:02]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, I'm not that interested. I'm still. I'm still with last year's pop girlies, you know?
- [78:07]
Sean Fennessy
Okay, who are they?
- [78:08]
Amanda Dobbins
Sabrina Carpenter, Sabrina Chapel, Dua Lipa, Chapel.
- [78:11]
Sean Fennessy
Roan, and my beloved Charlie, Charlie X. Yes.
- [78:14]
Amanda Dobbins
Dua Lipa did it. Last summer's album didn't really pan out, but she's engaged. Did you see to Callum Turner?
- [78:20]
Sean Fennessy
I did, I did.
- [78:21]
Amanda Dobbins
Congratulations to those two really hot people.
- [78:23]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah.
- [78:24]
Amanda Dobbins
Just a slab of meat who just seem incredibly hot.
- [78:26]
Sean Fennessy
Two wonderful slabs of me.
- [78:27]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She has a brain. She's got a great book club.
- [78:30]
Sean Fennessy
So I've heard.
- [78:31]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. Can I. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.
- [78:33]
Sean Fennessy
This is important. This is actually important. This is really. This is pure Amanda material.
- [78:37]
Amanda Dobbins
This is why we podcast.
- [78:38]
Sean Fennessy
Is reading just reading?
- [78:40]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [78:41]
Sean Fennessy
Just being into reading.
- [78:42]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [78:43]
Sean Fennessy
Does that make you smart? Because there's a new. You see, the new paradigm. The like, oh, Kaia Gerber loves books.
- [78:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Listen, Dua Lipa loves books.
- [78:52]
Sean Fennessy
I'm not saying they're not smart. You're an avid reader. I know you're smart.
- [78:55]
Amanda Dobbins
That's true. But I do not. They read far more challenging material than I do at this point.
- [79:00]
Sean Fennessy
Does that mean that's not true? Does that matter?
- [79:02]
Amanda Dobbins
But, yeah, I. There's an ambition to me that's actually.
- [79:08]
Sean Fennessy
Weirdly kind of sexist that people are like, oh, she reads books. She must be brilliant.
- [79:12]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, it is sexist. I mean, you're totally right, but it's more that I am continually like, wow, that seems pretty heavy. And I don't know if I feel like reading that about their book choices. There is a seriousness and a level of challenge to both the Kaia Gerber and the Dua Lipa, but that's because.
- [79:33]
Sean Fennessy
Their work is frivolous.
- [79:34]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't think their work is frivolous. Okay. I think what Kaia Gerber does in Bottoms is very funny.
- [79:40]
Sean Fennessy
And would you say it is deep in searching? Would you say it is about the human spirit?
- [79:46]
Amanda Dobbins
It is.
- [79:47]
Sean Fennessy
That's what this show is about.
- [79:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Hot girls have feelings too, okay? And they deserve to be Explored on screen.
- [79:54]
Sean Fennessy
Lord knows I respect them.
- [79:56]
Amanda Dobbins
I think that their reading indicates a curiosity that I admire.
- [80:00]
Sean Fennessy
Okay.
- [80:00]
Amanda Dobbins
And I'll check that. I'm like, not. I was just like all the books. I'm like, well, it seems really hard. I'm going to read another detective novel. Sorry.
- [80:08]
Sean Fennessy
Has Dua Lipa read the Life of Chuck?
- [80:12]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't think so, but I haven't either. So I'm not one to cast judgment.
- [80:17]
Sean Fennessy
One thing that was tough was charli XCX on TikTok obviating the entire need for this podcast by.
- [80:24]
Amanda Dobbins
By doing the Final Destination ring. Yeah. I send you the content and you did not really. She's wearing a bikini and I know she's wearing a bikini. And so you were like a little distracted, but that's the point. You're supposed to engage with the whole picture.
- [80:36]
Sean Fennessy
She's wearing a bikini, drinking a cocktail, talking about Final Destination. And it was like. It was like an FBI task force.
- [80:42]
Amanda Dobbins
Entrapment circumstance for me. I know. It was really, really good stuff.
- [80:46]
Sean Fennessy
I was like, this is dangerous for me.
- [80:47]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. So yeah, she's a Leo like us.
- [80:50]
Sean Fennessy
No shit. She. We should just cancel the pod.
- [80:55]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [80:56]
Sean Fennessy
Because I think. Should she host it, Charlie? Yeah. She's making a film now as well.
- [81:01]
Amanda Dobbins
I would love for her to come meet my co host. Why don't you go on like a six month vacation and it'll be me and Charlie.
- [81:06]
Sean Fennessy
Oh my God. I would love nothing more.
- [81:09]
Amanda Dobbins
Live from Tenants of the Trees. I didn't get to have my brat summer last year. We'll do it this year.
- [81:14]
Sean Fennessy
That sounds fantastic. I'm very happy for you. Quickly on Life of Chuck before we go to Flanagan. It did win the audience award.
- [81:22]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, but last year, you know.
- [81:25]
Sean Fennessy
So then I think the audience award winner, I think, is it like 11 out of the last 13 have been nominated for best picture. Maybe more.
- [81:33]
Amanda Dobbins
Right. But they all are either previously owned or get like and have a release plan in place or they get rushed out in the same calendar year.
- [81:42]
Sean Fennessy
If Anora didn't exist, would this film have been nominated for best picture last year? Because one of the reasons why is cause Neon was like, we got our contender. We don't need to put this movie out right now.
- [81:52]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't think so. With respect, do you feel it's being.
- [81:55]
Sean Fennessy
Buried in the awards race? If this was a November film, would it have done a little better?
- [82:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Maybe, but I. I don't know. I think we're just chatting a summer feel good. I think Nian knows what it's Doing like a summer feel good movie. And then, you know, it won the Toronto. So everyone needs to go check it out. But I don't think it's actually seriously gonna be in an Oscar race, so you don't have to put up the money for that.
- [82:24]
Sean Fennessy
Do you think people are going to check it out?
- [82:27]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't know. There were like 10 other people in the theater with me so on at, you know, 11:00am on a Wednesday.
- [82:34]
Sean Fennessy
So you saw a. I saw a regular screen public screening, yeah. Okay.
- [82:38]
Amanda Dobbins
It's pretty limited release, so.
- [82:39]
Sean Fennessy
Was everyone sobbing?
- [82:41]
Amanda Dobbins
No, I don't think anyone was crying.
- [82:43]
Sean Fennessy
Okay. That's too bad.
- [82:44]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [82:45]
Sean Fennessy
Any other thoughts? How's everything else going in your life? You're down for the advice episode on Monday.
- [82:51]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm really, really excited.
- [82:52]
Sean Fennessy
You know. Why? I don't want to. I told you, it's Father's Day.
- [82:56]
Amanda Dobbins
No, I appreciate it.
- [82:57]
Sean Fennessy
I really don't want to turn my Sunday.
- [82:58]
Amanda Dobbins
I do want it on record that, like, I still had an episode to prep for after Mother's Day.
- [83:02]
Sean Fennessy
Is that true?
- [83:03]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, I think so.
- [83:04]
Sean Fennessy
What was it?
- [83:05]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, I. I guess. No, I think it was melancholia that we did the next day. Well, okay, that doesn't count. It was like a present. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe it was Tuesday. Maybe I didn't have to do any prep. Now that I. You think that you thought about it?
- [83:18]
Sean Fennessy
I think that not only do I think I thought about it, I think I also thought about it in a sel. Selfish way because then I had a very busy Mother's Day.
- [83:25]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [83:26]
Sean Fennessy
So I was really not able to do any preparation.
- [83:28]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm scrolling back now. No, we did the mailbag the 10:00am After. Yeah. Did we? We did. I'm looking at the calendar. It's okay. A mailbag is, like, as low as, like, an advice.
- [83:38]
Sean Fennessy
Maybe that's why we did that.
- [83:40]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, that's awful. Thank you so much.
- [83:42]
Sean Fennessy
I don't even know if I did that on purpose.
- [83:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Happy Father's Day. You never said Happy Mother's Day to me on the podcast.
- [83:46]
Sean Fennessy
I'm so sorry.
- [83:47]
Amanda Dobbins
It's okay.
- [83:48]
Sean Fennessy
You're a great mother.
- [83:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Thanks. You're a great dad.
- [83:50]
Sean Fennessy
Thanks. I feel bad that I didn't say it.
- [83:52]
Amanda Dobbins
And your girl dad view of the world is really changing all of us, so I thank you.
- [83:58]
Sean Fennessy
You're mocking me, but it has changed me.
- [84:00]
Amanda Dobbins
I know it has. It's beautiful.
- [84:02]
Sean Fennessy
Completely.
- [84:02]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [84:03]
Sean Fennessy
I'm having an excellent time being a father recently.
- [84:06]
Amanda Dobbins
She rules. She's so great.
- [84:07]
Sean Fennessy
She's doing great. She is extremely selfish and is going to destroy everyone around her. But it's okay.
- [84:13]
Amanda Dobbins
So are both of my children the life of children?
- [84:16]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. Okay. Should we go to my conversation with Mike Flanagan? Yes. Okay. Let's go to my conversation with Mike Flanagan for the first time on the show. Mike Flanagan. Very excited to speak with him today. Mike, I revisited Hush last night and I clocked the bookshelf of Stephen King novels which I don't think I picked up on last time I saw it. And this is obviously not your first go around with adapting Stephen's work, but did this one feel specifically different in any way?
- [84:44]
C
Oh, yeah. This one was very different for me from the start. I mean, when I first read the story, I thought it was different from anything I'd seen from Stephen King in a very long time. The structure was so unique. But the thing that struck me about it was this was a story, obviously not a horror story, but a story that didn't have an ounce of cynicism to it at all. And that's just. I mean, I can count on one hand how many stories I've come across in my life that exist in that rarefied place of total earnestness. And so it was clear to me that my approach to it would have to be radically different from any of the other work I've done. But, yeah, its differences made it, I think, kind of irresistible to me.
- [85:33]
Sean Fennessy
Do you talk to Steven about these adaptations at all? Do you, like, you know, ask permission to make changes? What is the process like?
- [85:42]
C
Oh, yeah, you know, he. Steve has. Has an amazing perspective on this, that he's grown over the years being adapted so much. Where he says, the book is the book, the movie is the movie, the book is mine, the movie is yours, I will stay out of your way. And he believes, and I think he's right, that he can't lose in that equation. Because if the movie's terrible, people say the book is better. And if the movie's great, they say, of course it's great. It's based on a great book. And so he keeps a very respectful distance. That said, he has an enormous amount of approvals when it comes to cast and scripts. I've gotten to talk to him a few times leading up to an adaptation. The biggest one being the conversations around doctor Sleep and around incorporating the Kubrick kind of cinematic language into that. Knowing his feelings about that adaptation with this one, I remember the first conversation we had about it. I said to him that I really believed if. If he trusted me with the material, it might be the best movie I'll ever make. And I had just gotten the rights to the Dark Tower at the time. And he said, I hear you. I think that sounds great. That story isn't an obvious adaptation to me, so I'm curious to hear how you'd approach it. But I think we should just focus on Dark Tower. He doesn't like you to have more than one thing because it means one thing isn't moving forward. And so with this one, I remember I sent him the script and he came back with no notes and was just like, go on, go make it. I can't wait to see how this works out.
- [87:23]
Sean Fennessy
You made, like, a pretty dramatic choice, though, in the way that the story is structured. And I know that people have been doing this with King's work for a long time and making strong artistic choices against the framework of his stories. But are you nervous to share with him, like, hey, I think it should be more like this instead of the way that you conceived of this story?
- [87:43]
C
Oh, I thought I was with this one. I thought I was pretty. Pretty in the ballpark of what he did. I made some additions to it, but I kept his structure intact. And I changed this the least compared to doctor Sleep. And Gerald's game, I guess, would be how I would frame it.
- [88:03]
Sean Fennessy
Do you see a delineation in the kinds of stories that he writes? This one feels very. What I would describe as Castle Rock Entertainment in the mold of the films from that production company that had some relationship to his movies. Do you see a bifurcation in any way?
- [88:19]
C
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely kind of the Steve who wrote Stand By Me, Shawshank, both Castle Rock that you're talking about, the Green Mile, where he's really kind of letting the genre elements take a backseat to the human story he's telling. And then there's. Yeah, Steve contains multitudes, as do we all, so I definitely see the difference. I think, though, there's an incredible commonality to it in that Stephen King, regardless of whether he's doing Pet Sematary, which is one of the scariest and darkest stories I've ever read in my life, or Hearts in Atlantis, which is one of the most gentle. Both of them are about the decisions we make based out of love. And no matter how dark the story is, that is always kind of the engine. So I think one of the things that's amazing to me is to see how many different expressions of this idea, this humanism Stephen King is capable of creating. It makes it really Exciting as a constant reader and as a fan of his, to kind of of never really know what we're in for, but to only know that there's an emotional honesty to it that's going to kind of connect it to everything else. So, yeah, I feel the distinctions that you're referring to, for sure, but I think as I've gotten older, I zero in much more on the common threads kind of underneath them.
- [89:58]
Sean Fennessy
So for you as a filmmaker, why was this the right time in your life to adapt a story like this and to, you know, I guess it's a pivot in some ways from the work that you've done previously in genre?
- [90:10]
C
Very much. It is, I think, the answer to that. You know, there's always the crazy circumstances that have to come together for you to make any project. So there's a certain amount of that that's never in my control. But while. What makes me very glad about the fact that I was able to do this movie when I was is that I've got three kids. They're 14, 8, and 6. When I first read this, it was 2020, April 2020, and the COVID lockdown was brand new, and my kids were looking to me for some kind of answers and reassurance while I tried to pretend I wasn't utterly terrified of what was happening around me and looking at them, wondering what kind of world they were going to inherit, that really touched on an incredible parental anxiety that I'd never felt before. But the story that Stephen King wrote also gave me an enormous amount of hope and gratitude. And so I think this movie came around at the right time in my life, because my entire motive in trying to get it to the screen was that I wanted it to exist in the world for my kids when they hit that inevitable feeling that I had in 2020 that I have again now that the world is coming off its wheels, and that finding joy, connection and love and optimism is more important than ever. So this just happened to coincide with a time when I don't know that it was ever more important to me to feel those things and to grab onto them myself for my kids as a viewer.
- [92:00]
Sean Fennessy
There's another commonality with that period in time for me, which is there's this. I had not read the story before I saw the film. And so there's just this tremendous disorientation that you feel through at least the first two acts of the movie. And, you know, just the way that you've chosen to make it. And being faithful to King's story, it's hard to tell whether it's a series of memories or dreams or visions or reveries or what are we actually experiencing. And the way that you've kind of like set us off balance for our movie watching expectation. Can you kind of talk about how you. The intentional choices that you made to keep us in. I assume that's the space you wanted us to be in, but how you actually were able to execute on that?
- [92:43]
C
Oh, absolutely. I had a similar feeling when I read the short story, you know, and we approach it a little differently in the movie, but I had felt reading it like I had been thrown face first into this reality that all the other characters had already caught up with and gone through the various stages of grief and acceptance. There's no context to that. And the thing is that more than anything mirrors my experience of the world right now. The context that we. That we are reaching for is coming from, you know, from media we can't trust. It's coming from social media that contradicts itself. The idea of truth and of all these grounding forces that would help us orient ourselves in reality have all been ripped away or distorted. So I feel that way today. I feel that disorientation way too frequently. The idea for this was to plant the audience in that space of that chaos and gradually lead them to peace, to optimism, to hope, through joy, and through mourning and sadness too, where appropriate. You know, I think King balances those really well. And we tried to replicate that, but the way we would approach it was, you know, actively avoiding getting into expository dialogue that would orient us, only offering a little bit. Every scene had a new piece of information about this world, but nobody had the whole picture. And by the time we kind of realize what might be happening, the world that we've been presented with is already ending. That feeling that time's too short, that you never really get your feet under you, resonates with me a lot.
- [94:40]
Sean Fennessy
The other thing that really sticks out to me when I think back on the movie is it doesn't really have a protagonist. It has a title character, and it certainly has a through line in Chuck. But it's so unusual, even beyond your traditional ensemble, like the series that you've made for Netflix. They're big ensemble pieces and they have multiple characters. At times, you're kind of clinging to just the idea of existence and experience throughout the movie rather than a person, which I found to be such a. Just a cool choice. And I was wondering how you thought about that and just kind of maintaining a narrative film without having that thing to lean on that you often do.
- [95:19]
C
It was really fascinating to watch incredible actors come in and make an incredible impact in short bursts of time. Because you're right, there is no clear protagonist in this. You know, Chiwetel kind of is that protagonist in the beginning, but that gives way. And I think that's interesting because it speaks to the theme of the multitudes that we all contain. You know, there's no one particular version of me that is the main one, you know, that is the protagonist of my life. And I think we're all this kaleidoscope of different people, and we're informed by this kaleidoscope of different people. What I love about it is it gives the audience a chance to put themselves in the story more than trying to hang their identity on a particular character. Chuck's kept at a distance. You're right. He's the title character, but certainly not the protagonist. You know, even though I think by the time Benjamin Pajak is on screen, it feels the closest to feeling like, oh, that's our protagonist. But he's not there for an hour. You know, this is a very interesting and very strange way to tell a story. Chuck is specific, but Chuck is also meant to be all of us. And we're meant not to be hanging on the events of his life so much as thinking about the events of ours. And withholding a clear protagonist allows us to do that. It allows us to immerse ourselves in these different vignette moments and start to experience it as the kaleidoscope it is. I think that's closest to how we experience life, certainly not how we're taught to make movies. So it was completely uncharted territory for me and for the cast. But it was really incredibly rewarding for that.
- [97:09]
Sean Fennessy
I found it uniquely engaging, and I really liked how you executed on it. I wanted to ask you about the thin line between corniness and sincerity.
- [97:18]
C
Sure.
- [97:18]
Sean Fennessy
And how do you tightrope walk it with material like this?
- [97:22]
C
Yeah. And that was something we knew going in was always going to be the tightrope that we would be walking and that ultimately we would never get a consensus on the other side of it, because all of us are in a different place when it comes to that. The rule of thumb that I tried to embrace was to never be cynical, to never be dishonest, and to never try to make anyone feel anything. I had certain feelings reading the story. I was having emotional reactions contemplating the story. It was important to me that the movie never tried to manipulate. And I Think that's the big difference with the Newton Brothers, with the score we talked about avoiding manipulative scores. I don't think there's a minor key in it because we didn't want to say, this is sad, this is hopeful. We wanted a emotional optimism that carried us throughout. But whether it was death we're watching or whether it was, you know, a moment of pure innocence and joy, it was kind of operating on the same baseline. I think we live in a very cynical world, and I can very easily understand how stories that are this earnest may not resonate with everyone. In a lot of ways, we have our guards up. We have to. There's a level of cynicism that's required to survive in this world. But it's so rare for me, to. Some of my favorite films I've seen through my life, these rare movies that don't have that cynicism, to be able to make something like that. I just felt like if I ever felt like I was pushing it or lying or trying to force someone to feel something, then we were doing it wrong. It was really just about putting it out there as authentically and honestly as we could. Hiddleston approached it. I remember the word that leapt to my mind when I saw him come to set was that Tom approached it with incredible humility. And that, I think, was our North Star for this. I hope it resonates with people historically. Films that do engage in that level of earnestness can certainly go both ways.
- [99:38]
Sean Fennessy
It's a brave act. Yeah. To be heartful in a movie in 2025.
- [99:43]
C
It is, and I was grateful to see that. That courage was brought to set every day by my cast because they're the ones. They're the ones who sell it, you know? It was, I think, an incredibly brave story for Stephen King to include in this volume full of horrors, you know, with if It Bleeds, which is a wonderful collection, but this is very different. And so, yeah, it is a fine line. I hope we landed on the right side of it. That'll be up to the individual viewer.
- [100:17]
Sean Fennessy
Mike, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen? You're a cinephile. You're on letterboxd. I know you are.
- [100:25]
C
The last great thing I saw was Ryan Coogler's Sinners.
- [100:28]
Sean Fennessy
Tell me what you liked about it so, so much.
- [100:31]
C
I saw it three times, twice in imax. And there are moments of pure genius in that movie. There's an incredible musical number that dropped my jaw in theater and reminded me why I saw it in a sold out theater in large format and it reminded me. I love these reminders that come along every so often about what makes that experience so profound and unique and different than the one you get at home or the one you get on streaming or the one you get even in a theater that isn't populated. But yeah, that's the last great thing I saw. It really knocked me out.
- [101:09]
Sean Fennessy
Great recommendation, Mike. I'm a big fan of your work. Thanks for doing the show.
- [101:12]
C
Thank you so much. Thank you for your time.
- [101:14]
Sean Fennessy
Foreign thanks to Mike Flanagan. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. On Monday, we are officially doing it.
- [101:26]
Amanda Dobbins
Confirmed.
- [101:27]
Sean Fennessy
9:30Am PDT, 12:30pm EST. We are going live on YouTube.
- [101:34]
Amanda Dobbins
Why'd you say PDT and then EST?
- [101:37]
Sean Fennessy
That's how you're supposed to do it.
- [101:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Really?
- [101:38]
Sean Fennessy
Yes.
- [101:39]
Amanda Dobbins
Standard Pacific Daily?
- [101:41]
Sean Fennessy
Yes.
- [101:41]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay, well, who decided that?
- [101:44]
Sean Fennessy
I don't know the answer to that question, but you are messing with our plug right now. We are going live on YouTube on the Ringer Movies channel to do Amanda's Advice Corner.
- [101:57]
Amanda Dobbins
And you just saw some of the incisive questions that will be asked as we solve your problems together.
- [102:04]
Sean Fennessy
So if you want to chat with us and more specifically get Amanda's deepest, darkest thoughts about how we delineate time in this country, hop onto YouTube at 9:30. You can ask us some movie questions if you want.
- [102:16]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [102:16]
Sean Fennessy
But I would say if there are things in your life that you need clarified, this is the gal for you. We'll see you then. Sa.