‘Mickey 17’ and the Bong Joon-ho Movie Rankings

Summary

Podcast Title: The Big Picture
Host/Author: The Ringer
Episode: ‘Mickey 17’ and the Bong Joon-ho Movie Rankings
Release Date: March 10, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Big Picture, hosts Sean Fenasey and Amanda Dobbins delve into the newly released film Mickey 17, Bong Joon-ho's highly anticipated follow-up to his Oscar-winning hit Parasite. The conversation seamlessly transitions into a comprehensive ranking of Bong Joon-ho's filmography, exploring the evolution of his directorial style, thematic preoccupations, and the reception of his various works.

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Discussion on Mickey 17

[05:24] Sean introduces Mickey 17, highlighting it as Bong Joon-ho’s eighth feature film. He describes the film as a "sci-fi comedy cloning tale" set in 2051, where the protagonist, Mickey, volunteers to be repeatedly cloned and 3D-printed to serve as a test subject for an expedition to colonize the ice world Niflheim.

Amanda’s Initial Reaction
[06:46] Amanda expresses mixed feelings, appreciating the film’s ambition but feeling disconnected:
"I really liked it and didn't get it and don't care. Does that make any sense?"

Sean’s Analysis
[07:09] Sean commends Robert Pattinson’s performance, likening it to a blend of Buster Keaton and Jim Carrey, emphasizing the film's unique tone that oscillates between slapstick humor and serious political commentary:
"Robert Pattinson is doing a kind of like Buster Keaton slash Jim Carrey-esque physical performance."

Amanda’s Perspective
[07:56] Amanda praises Pattinson’s versatility and the film’s world-building but critiques the tonal inconsistencies, especially the integration of political themes with personal narratives:
"He is the reason to see the movie. I loved it. ... But my hesitance is like, it feels like it is an on level playing field. Because his bar is higher."

Themes and Tone
[09:18] The hosts discuss the movie’s exploration of self-identity through multiple versions of Mickey, juxtaposed with a broad political metaphor criticizing megachurches and corporate exploitation. Sean compares the film’s tonal clashes to works by Terry Gilliam and Paul Verhoeven:
"This movie is not really very serious. It's very daffy."

Performance Highlights
[12:44] Sean highlights standout performances, particularly Pattinson’s physical comedy and Damien Bong’s creature design, while expressing reservations about Mark Ruffalo’s over-the-top antagonist portrayal:
"Toni Collette is very clearly, like even the kind of speech pattern, you know, it's not quite as good as Sebastian Stan's remake."

Conclusion on Mickey 17
[17:15] The conversation wraps up with a critical yet appreciative take on the film’s ambition and execution, acknowledging its flaws while celebrating its innovative aspects:
"It’s a very funny one. ... But it gets bogged down in, like, the other noisier stuff around it at times."

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Analyzing Bong Joon-ho’s Directorial Style

Comparative Analysis
[55:37] Sean and Amanda juxtapose Bong Joon-ho’s work with other auteurs like Peter Jackson and David Fincher, noting Bong’s ability to blend genre conventions with deep thematic content:
"He does not get bogged down in the tropes. He doesn't feel like he has to fulfill the formulaic expectation."

Genre and Metaphor
[55:35] Amanda emphasizes Bong’s mastery in using genre as a metaphorical tool, allowing him to infuse social and political commentary seamlessly into his narratives:
"He understands that genre can contain ideas. ... but like, he is not willing, he's there for the big ideas and not just for like the gross out."

Political Undertones
[53:37] The hosts discuss how Bong infuses his films with political and ethical considerations without being overtly preachy, maintaining a balance between storytelling and commentary:
"I think it’s very easy to say, too, that Marshall and the...evil leadership figures in all of his films are not just their Western analogues."

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Ranking Bong Joon-ho’s Films

Sean and Amanda embark on ranking Bong Joon-ho’s films, debating the merits and placing them within a hierarchy based on personal preference, thematic depth, and execution.

1. Parasite
   [72:21] Recognized unanimously for its groundbreaking narrative and social commentary, Parasite stands at the top of the list as a pinnacle of modern cinema.

2. Memories of Murder
   [61:59] Cited for its influential storytelling and intricate character development, this film solidifies its place as a masterpiece in the thriller genre.

3. The Host
   [63:26] Praised for its creature design and integration of socio-political themes, The Host earns a high ranking despite some tonal inconsistencies.

4. Mother
   [66:51] Appreciated for its emotional depth and complex character relationships, Mother is lauded for its strong narrative and impactful conclusion.

5. Snowpiercer
   [62:53] Noted for its propulsive storytelling and genre-blending action sequences, Snowpiercer receives a solid ranking for its ambitious scope.

6. Okja
   [62:48] While admired for its creature design and thematic exploration, Okja is placed slightly lower due to perceived lack of nuance compared to other Bong films.

7. Mickey 17
   [05:24] Positioned as the seventh entry, Mickey 17 is acknowledged for its ambition and Pattinson’s performance but critiqued for its tonal mishmashes and overextended political metaphors.

8. Barking Dogs Never Bite
   [59:14] Bong’s early work is recognized for its comedic elements and foundational role in shaping his directorial voice, albeit ranked lower in the spectrum of his mature films.

Notable Quote during Ranking:
Sean: "Neither of these movies are bad. That's not what I'm saying."
Amanda: "No one is saying that. We did a whole thing at the top about this is one of our great working filmmakers."

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Closing Thoughts and Upcoming Topics

As the episode draws to a close, Sean and Amanda reflect on the intricacies of Bong Joon-ho’s filmography and the challenges of balancing personal taste with critical acclaim. They hint at future discussions, including a potential deep dive into Cate Blanchett’s illustrious career and the continued exploration of international cinema.

Upcoming Discussions:

• Cate Blanchett’s Hall of Fame: An in-depth exploration of Blanchett’s diverse roles and her impact on the film industry.
• Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit Rankings: Revisiting these epic sagas to contextualize Bong Joon-ho’s work within broader fantasy landscapes.

Final Notable Quotes:
Sean: "He loves and respects genre... but he takes them and bends them and molds them to his own design."
Amanda: "I think that he thinks that... we are in hell, but kids, animals, and pure souls still exist among us, and we need to cherish all of them."

The hosts sign off with enthusiasm for future episodes, promising continued insightful conversations about pivotal films and industry trends.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Big Picture offers a thorough examination of Mickey 17 and Bong Joon-ho’s body of work, blending critical analysis with personal perspectives. Sean Fenasey and Amanda Dobbins provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of Bong’s directorial prowess, the thematic layers within his films, and the ongoing dialogue surrounding his contributions to modern cinema.

Transcript

[Bill Simmons]

Hey, it's Bill Simmons letting you know that we are covering the White Lotus on the Prestige TV Podcast and the Ringer TV YouTube channel every Sunday night this season with Mali Rubin and Joanna Robinson.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.

[Bill Simmons]

Subscribe to the prestigious podcast feed, subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel. And don't forget, you can also watch.

[Amanda Dobbins]

These podcasts on on Spotify.

[Bill Simmons]

White Lotus.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let's go.

[Bill Simmons]

This episode is presented by Audi. The all new fully electric Audi Q6E Tron is a huge leap forward featuring effortless power, serious acceleration and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever. Experience technology that puts you center stage with a panoramic digital stage plus an optional screen for front seat passengers so they can kick back with a movie. The Q6E Tron is not just a new EV. It's a new way to experience driving. Learn [e-mail] always pay careful attention to the road and do not drive while distracted. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's easy to [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail].

[Bill Simmons]

I'm Sean Fenasey.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

[Bill Simmons]

And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about Mickey 17 Bong Joon Hoes, long awaited follow up to Parasite hit theaters last week. We are diving deep into it. What works, what doesn't. More than we're going to rank all eight Bond directed features. But first, Amanda, I just asked you to watch a trailer sitting right next to me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

As we often do at this time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know it's one of your favorite Monday morning activities.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you watch that trailer? I didn't. I'm going to watch it right now next to you. The trailer I asked you to watch is the A24 inflected trailer for Thunderbolts.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Asterisk A new MCU movie that you think looked bad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

In the super bowl trailer.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And now you've seen this new version and you think what?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think this is your fault. And like, and I wonder how do you feel watching it? Like, do you feel indicted? Like, do you see all, like the, the marketing and financial forces, like, swirling around to make this thing that like, you kind of did?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I would say my influence is vast.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And no, I mean, this is, I thought, a very funny move by Marvel, A self aware move by Marvel to realize that they have lost those of us who are sitting on the fence between the A24 Bros. And the MCU stands. You know, there were a few of us who were on board with both ideas living concurrently. A lot of those of us have jumped away from the Marvel side of the fence in the last four or five years. And so this is a kind of nod to that loss, I think in some ways also just the fact that the MCU is not cool right now. There's kind of nothing cool about it. And so it's an attempt to identify some cool, at least in this Thunderbolts property worked for me. Geffelstein. Huge look for Geffelstein, the German dance music artist who I was exposed to first by Kanye West. And I won't say anything else about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Great. Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought the trailer was funny. I've always thought this movie looked not bad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I thought that it was funny. I wouldn't say that any of, like the content, the clips of the movie changed, like, my anticipation of the movie in any way. I mean, I like all of those people.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Good actors.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's Lewis Pullman, right?

[Bill Simmons]

It is, yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Bob, do you know that he's dating Kaia Gerber?

[Bill Simmons]

I do know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did you know that Bill Pullman was outside of. He went to see Kai Gerber's play this weekend.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, what is she performing in?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't remember the name of it. It's somewhere in Los Angeles.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. Did she write it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, but she's in it. I believe this was the last weekend.

[Bill Simmons]

But is it like A Streetcar Named Desire?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I think it was like it was some new theater. Kyeger was taking risks. Okay, okay. In the literary and theatrical space. Absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

She has so much to lose. So.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I just think. But honestly, like, the parents of the boyfriend went to the theater this week and I just thought that was notable.

[Bill Simmons]

I enjoy Lewis Pullman's work. I would say that's an impressive pull for him. Kaia Gerber. And maybe Thunderbolts will be equally impressive. Maybe not. I. I think it's pretty funny. No one knows what to do anymore.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, I like it. Like it's, it's. It's funny. They're like in on the joke. And then a24 retweeted it with like a euphoria meme that I had to Google, but I laughed at that too. No feedback on the cake, but that's okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, they haven't hit you up on the materialistic?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I haven't heard from anyone at A24 about the materialistic.

[Bill Simmons]

What do you think that's about?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I really don't know. Maybe they're baking it, you know, a lot of layers.

[Bill Simmons]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So that does take time.

[Bill Simmons]

That classic 96 hour bake. We know about those. That's all the news I have for you. I'm sure something between when this episode is finished recording and we publish, something meaningful will happen, but otherwise, let's just dive right back into Mickey 17.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Bong Joon Ho was on the show last week talking about crazy, all the things he did to make this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know why I'm allowed on the same episode as Bong Joon Ho. I really don't.

[Bill Simmons]

It was great. It was great. Bong was great. Sharon Choi, his longtime translator on these American stints, was great. This is Bong's eighth feature film. It is written by him and solely by him, I should note. It's an adaptation of the 2021 novel Mickey 7 by Edward Ashton. Stars Robert Pattinson. Perhaps you've heard of him. Naomi Ackey, Steven Yeun, Toni Collette, Mark Ruffalo, Holiday Granger, Anna Marie Vartola, May, Patsy Farren. Big international cast. He's gotten really good at assembling these huge international casts. Especially as I've gone back and looked back at his movies recently. This is kind of something that he really likes to do with these American productions. The movie's story is very simple and yet very complex. A classic sci fi comedy cloning tale about a human expedition to colonize the ice world called Niflheim. After one iteration of Mickey dies, a new body is generated with most of his memories intact. And his body is fully 3D printed so that he may be exposed to the terrors of Niflheim to test vaccines on him, to explore the world and make him the crash test dummy for this expedition. What'd you think of Mickey 17?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was practicing this setup to this on the way in. I really. I liked it and didn't get it and don't care. Does that make any sense?

[Bill Simmons]

Sure. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And we're such an interesting time in terms of, I mean movies, but also big budget filmmaking and things with money where it's like, I would like to see this, a movie like this and like every week compared to what we are offered. And it feels like it is in such a different category and so cool. And once again, as we often say with Steven Soderbergh, like, I just like it when people try things. Some of this totally works and was really exciting for me. Some of it I didn't quite follow. As I said, I think that given the baggage of this movie in particular and its release and then we'll talk about some of the politics of it and just, you know, the big idea of Oscar winning directors like next movie from Warner Brothers and concern trolling about how he should or should not do whatever. I'm hesitant to even say, like, well, I didn't get all of it, but that's okay. Like, you know, it would be nice to live in a world where we could just talk about how like how cool and interesting movies from great filmmakers do and don't work all of the time without all of the context. But I. We can't because of everything that is surrounding this movie.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think it would be an interesting blind taste test or if you showed this movie to audiences who were fond of Bong but didn't know he made it, whether they would be able to locate that. I think that they would.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, absolutely.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it has a lot of his signatures and hallmarks as a filmmaker and you know how they feel about it versus your general moviegoer who maybe isn't like a cinephile, doesn't know as much about a director like him. I think people are always gonna be willing to afford more grace to a director taking chances like this when they have this body of work that supports it. And it also feels very thematically coherent, I think with a lot of the stuff that he's done. I liked it. I liked it. I didn't love it. I think it's kind of in a quartile of bong movies that we'll talk about as we get into the rankings where it's like, he doesn't have any bad films. All of his films, I think are engaging and smart and beautifully made. I think this is kind of that second tier where he's reaching for something that he maybe doesn't totally have his arms around or he's like reaching for something and grabbing it and holding it a little too tight. Um, yeah, but I think as. As post Oscar blank checks go, this Is a very funny one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, that's the. I mean, everything about it is cool. And what he does in terms of world building, genre, directing, actors, honestly, like creatures and sci fi stuff is all so like next level and accomplished. And I think a thing that we'll take for granted in this conversation, but like, we shouldn't because you and I see so much drek where none of that is nailed down at all. And we have to talk about like, oh, well, like, why did they forget the water bottle in that shot or whatever. And we're not doing that. So we're able to talk about like things like themes and pacing and the idea of satire and you know, and that's awesome. But my hesitance is like, it feels like it is an on level playing field. Because his bar is higher. Yeah, his bar is higher. But I feel prot of it also because I, you know, I don't want us. These conversations kind of like go out into the world and then suddenly it's like, oh, you know, we're dissecting it at the same level that we're dissecting Captain America, whatever the fuck.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, okay, I want to talk about the details of the movie, but this prompt popped into my head as you were talking, which is that, you know, the movie didn't have a great box office over the weekend. Not terribly surprising when you consider the circumstances in full. Um, but if the movie had made $80 million over the weekend instead of $18 million, would you feel differently about how you're characterizing your sort of semi support of the movie? Because then you'd feel like, well, it's a, it's a hit, so it doesn't need me to be like, this is okay. Like, please, studios keep trying to make movies like this. This stuff really matters to us.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess so though, would 80 million be enough? You know, like, is there like, we live, we live in hell, right? So there, there is no enough. And you know, the con, the conversation already this Monday morning was about, like, why do you care about corporate box office, like, bottom lines and all this stuff, which like, I, I fucking don't. You know, I have to agree with Todd Phillips on that one, which is the only time I'll ever say that sentence. But it. Things are so dire in terms of filmmakers and like artists actually having means to do something big. And so to even criticize it a little, like, it just kind of seems like we're missing the not miss. Like people are going to interpret it differently. Do you know what I mean? And it will Like. And that's a bummer.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I think it is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But what are you going to do?

[Bill Simmons]

We'll be honest, you know, like, this is a really cool movie that is also very flawed and we can talk about that. The interesting balance of tone, I think, is really challenging. It reminded me a lot of Terry Gilliam movies and Paul Verhoeven movies and a little bit of John Carpenter. He's talked a lot about the Thing in the run up to this movie, at least in terms of the setting. This feels very close to the Thing. But the thing is, despite the kind of gore and extravagance of the gore of that movie, a dead serious movie. This movie is not really very serious. It's very daffy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Almost slapsticky at times.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. So is this movie a comedy?

[Bill Simmons]

I kept writing satire and you kept writing notes like, is this a satire? And asking whether it's a farce. And I think it's somewhere in between.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And I think our inability to answer that question is sort of, you know, what we're circling around and in terms of it's trying to do a lot of different tones and trying to nail down a lot of different types of comedies and every kind of, not every character, but there are sort of two to three movies within it that are operating on slightly different wavelengths.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I think, like, this film is not nearly as good as the movie I'm going to cite, but Ernst Lubitsch's To Be or Not To Be, which is about a small group of people inside of a big international story that is like, very silly on the small part, but very serious on the big part. It feels like a little bit of a model for this. And I think you would call To Be or Not To Be a satire. It is farcical in terms of the way that the story is told, but the, you know, the big ideas of this movie, which is essentially about a church slash corporation that is funding this expedition to seemingly terraform an alien planet and make it a new destination for humanity in the somewhat near future. 2051, I want to say, is the year that this movie is set. And this expedition requires manpower and bodies to. To. To make it happen. And so Kenneth Marshall, who is a former elected figure in the US government, who has now lost two consecutive elections, has shifted his allegiances to this company and he is the leader of this new expedition and has, you know, fancied himself a kind of godhead figure. And so he's assembling all of these people that do this work. But the movie is very tightly focused on Mickey. And Mickey volunteers to be one of these expendables is what they're called, somebody who will be killed over and over and over again and reprinted over and over and over again to help the expedition in some ways. But also he has love in his heart and he has sex with a companion and he makes friends and he goes on journeys. And he's also running from something, which is one of the reasons why he volunteers himself. And. And so Robert Pattinson is doing a kind of like Buster Keaton slash Jim Carrey esque physical performance inside of a movie that has like a lot of gray dark shadow and serious political implications. And so there's a purposeful clash of tone, but that doesn't always work as well as you want it to in the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And I. Not only is he doing something different from most of the other people in the movie, he is spoiler alert playing several different versions of Mickey himself. And so he's doing different tones within his own character, which is very cool and impressive. And to me, I mean, he is the reason to see the movie. I loved it. I love Robert Pattins as an actor. You're watching something weird and magical anytime he's on the screen in this movie. And anytime he's even like doing the voiceover, which, you know, the, the, the first part of the movie and the end of the movie rely pretty heavily on, as you noted, a little bit because it's an adaptation of a book and a little bit because it's like doing Goodfellas for. You know, it's really, I thought a lot of like a Goodfellas joke as he. And with. With love and affection and. And that made me like it as well. So he's. He has a lot going on on his own. And then there's like the political stuff that is a lot doesn't totally feel nailed down and doesn't really ever feel in conversation with him. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

That's interesting. The first act of the movie I thought was very effective but very literary because of that voiceover that is necessary, I think most. I haven't read Mickey 7, so I. Yeah. And is it all. Is it first person? Is it taking place in his mind?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, it's all. It's all in his mind. And I would say more focused on like, not the science, though. There is sort of a lot of like entry level made up science. It's kind of been compared a lot to the Martian and I would say that's like the right level of, of engagement and made up science seriousness with.

[Bill Simmons]

It to take it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah. And, and, and the ethics of cloning and the idea of souls and stuff more than on Marshall or the corporation or that's elucidated a little bit. But it's all about Mickey and multiple beings.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So I think that that's maybe part of the challenge of this movie is that it's a movie that is taking place within one person, but it's a very big world. And so I can kind of feel him trying to bend the framework around the kinds of things he likes to do, which are usually very multi perspective stories with a number of different characters. Often families are featured in his stories and they're kind of always shifting from who is in the lead. Occasionally you have a movie like this, like Mother is maybe the one that is closest to this where you've got like more or less one person that we're following the whole time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I mean, Okja, that's what.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but Okja has like a lot of characters and a lot of perspectives.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But it's like you are. It's the same thing where it's someone who society under values, either a child or Mickey navigating both like creature relationships and large corporations with also like a buffoonish male figure and like a steely, ice cold like woman at the side trying to negotiate what's going on. So there's a lot of Okja in this.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. After I saw it, you asked me like, what Bong should I revisit to prepare? And I said that there's just. There's a lot of Okja in this movie. And maybe that's part of what is holding me back from really loving is that it feels like slightly schematic or thematically redundant to some of the kind of corporate political, kill the billionaires stuff that is in the movie. It's a part of what he's interested in as a filmmaker and in most of his films.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it comes up in all of.

[Bill Simmons]

So it's not that. I think it's maybe just the very specific way that it's told. Mark Ruffalo plays this Kenneth Marshall figure and Toni Collette plays Ilpha, who is his wife. There is a Trumpian quality to Kenneth Marshall, for sure. Bong has said that this is not based on Trump, but I think if you watch the movie and you see his hair and his vocal affectations and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

His teeth and Ruffalo's doing it very clearly, like even the kind of speech pattern, you know, it's not quite as good as Sebastian Stan's remake. But like, they're living in the same family.

[Bill Simmons]

They are, they are. It's a very pronounced. I mean, he's an over the top figure in real life. And so it requires a kind of over the top performance. I would say somewhat distractingly over the top for me. I thought he got some good laugh lines in this movie, but I didn't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Think it was dead silent in my theater.

[Bill Simmons]

Really. Yeah, the laughs were kind of. Were really interspersed in the theater. I saw it a second time with a packed house on Sunday and people were. They seemed to like Pattinson was my takeaway. And especially when Mickey 17 meets a multiple. That stuff seemed to work really, really well. The Kenneth Marshall stuff. Yeah, I guess didn't work as well as I was watching it the second time. I was like, is this movie better if there is no Kenneth Marshall? And Toni Collette just plays this lead figure who's a little evil, but maybe not as eccentrically over the top.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. I do think so. I mean, I. Part of the reason I went back and read Mickey 7 was because I wanted to understand how much of the Marshall and the. It's sort of a cult. It's sort of a mega church. It's sort of a like corporation. And I couldn't really figure out what was going on with his motivation or, you know, what. What he was trying to represent besides sort of like a Trumpian guy with too much teeth who is a buffoon on TV a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And there's. It is sort of a cult in the, like. I mean, I guess they say literally there's one sentence where it's like, this is a cult. And they only believe that there is like one soul. Which I was kind of like, well, is that wrong? But anyway, there's a little bit of.

[Bill Simmons]

Like evangelical Christianity in here. There's megachurch stuff for sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think all of that, like, as best I could tell. And again, I didn't read word for word, but that is added in. That's like.

[Bill Simmons]

That's Bond. Okay, interesting.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And definitely all of the kind of Trump political illusion stuff is added in. But then I feel there's so much going on that it's not quite nailed down. And so I agree with you. If you had had Toni Collette or just like a simpler. This is a. You know, Mickey's just wants to be a guy in the world and they're taking advantage of him. And he, you know, if you could streamline his conflict, I do think that that would be easier and would also play into what Worked for your audience and for me, which is Robert Pattinson.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I think the movie, because it's a sci fi spectacle, needs an adversary, and that's why this character is pumped up in the way that it is. It's not always as effective as I would want it to be. I think I like the idea of a kind of Trump slash Musk esque person leading a space expedition and being kind of buoyed by the conservative Christian right, because that's like, effectively what happened in this country. You know, like, that idea works. It's just the execution that is a little dodgy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's all a little muddied. Right. And. But also, there's so much else going on that it's not able to be, like, communicated in that way. Like, he's sort of Trump, but it's a pretty. It's a like, very broad caricature of Trump that doesn't really, like. I don't know what I'm supposed to take away from what he's trying to say about that other than, well, like, Trump's a buffoon. Yes. But, like, yeah, it's also.

[Bill Simmons]

This is kind of my issue with Okja, for the record, too, where I'm like, there's really no, like, ambiguity here. It's just like a very dead forward, you know, ecological destruction is bad, protect animals kind of conceit. That is. Is something that I agree with broadly, but, like, none of the shade of all of his Korean films, which are usually, like, very morally ambiguous and complex and require, like, a moment to be like, what it. What did the ending of that movie actually mean? And we should discuss it. And I find that this movie and Okja together both result in a kind of, like. I agree, you know, that sort of like, neoliberal. Like, sure, we all should be nice.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I agree with you. You know, Okja's just like, mean Spielberg, you know, and so it. And cynical Spielberg. And so it is very, like, broad and manipulative. And I rewatched it, and that last shot with the pigs and the baby, like, just wrecks me every time. But, like, that is also.

[Bill Simmons]

That's ET but with a pig.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, right. But it's like, you're right that it's not nuanced. It's like, yeah, I agree. Like, probably we don't want to hurt the baby pig or any of the other things.

[Bill Simmons]

It's ineffective. And maybe that movie's more well made or has more pies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I just. I kind of. What, like, what do I agree with in this, it's like, I. Well, we shouldn't let, like, megachurches be in charge of space.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's talk about that. We shouldn't let megachurches be in charge of space. That is a good note or anything. I agree with that. I think that, well, they can be in charge of their churches. That's fine. That's their jobs.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

You can run your church. Yeah. You can't run space.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, you heard it here first. Megachurches. You can't run space.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Can't believe in space.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. I know. I don't know. Well, we have a megachurch here. Come on in. Megachurch. I think the thing that the movie is trying to do is twofold. One, it's a very cool movie. And the stuff that works the best because of Pattinson and the way that the film is written is about the self and the multiples of Mickey and being confronted with one version of yourself and another version of yourself simultaneously. And a person who's angrier and more aggressive and more out for revenge on those who have done you wrong versus somebody who is a little softer, a little bit more emotional, a little bit more sentimental. And the idea of these selves coexisting, that's a cool idea to render in a sci fi movie. It's been done before, but maybe not quite in this way. The other thing is that we haven't talked about the Creepers yet, which are the creatures of this movie. Bong, one of the great creature forward filmmakers, and he's invented a new kind of creature that looks like a armadillo. Water bug. Elephant.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. They are really, really cute and also so gross.

[Bill Simmons]

They're very gross and cute. And that's kind of his thing, right? That's kind of what Bong does. This movie is very much like if, as I told him, the host creature and Okja had a baby.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, like the little. The hump. But also the way the mouth opens and all of the things.

[Bill Simmons]

Exactly. So I think that the Creepers are a very on the nose metaphor for the other, for any immigrant or person who does not look like you. And, you know, the Kenneth Marshall character characterizing them as like disgusting alien bugs and wanting to exterminate them is a very, very, very broad one to one metaphor for the way that we talk about the way that some people in this country talk about the other. So I think that's what the movie's about really, is about understanding yourself. And then once you understand yourself and accept yourself, accepting others in the world you know, that's the kind of like, we are the world, hands together interpretation of the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

But it gets bogged down in, like, the other noisier stuff around it at times.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. There is also sort of a contradiction in the ultimate conclusion, which is, like, it's about honoring yourself, but then only one Mickey can exist at the end. So which of yourselves do you choose? I guess. And that's a good question.

[Bill Simmons]

Which of yourselves would you choose if you had to make a choice?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, he.

[Bill Simmons]

Would it be YouTube? Amanda.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, there is, like, the. I mean, he's essentially choosing between kind, empathetic, slightly dopey himself, and aggro, you know, sexually adventurous version of himself, which is very funny. There's a lot of sex in this movie, too, which is great. I like that's. It's. It's funny. And, you know, ultimately, I guess they both contain both. And so then the sweet, dominant one can, you know, the sweet, non dominant one can win. But I. It's, you know, and I guess, like, that is. It is sort of complicated. And Bonga's being like, okay, well, when you choose yourself, there are also consequences or complications.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But that nuance, like, also gets sort of bogged down in a very long ending. And it's just nothing. Everything is a little messy. Right. And I think that's unexpected in a filmmaker who is so precise. And everything is always, as we know, you know, storyboarded and. And designed, and chosen, like, by the frame.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then I. I was just kind of like, okay, well, what's going here?

[Bill Simmons]

Is Mickey 7, humorous in tone?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. He's. It's sort of dopey. Okay, again, like, I wasn't. I wasn't reading for tone or, like, reading for a sense of enjoyment.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't have your book report ready for us?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, it was. I guess it's supposed to be, like, amusing, you know?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I ask because this movie is a reunion for Bong with Darius Kanji, the dp. They work together on Okja. Darius Kanji, for those who are not familiar with him, is one of the great living cinematographers. Iranian film filmmaker who has worked with. I guess he's probably best known for Seven with David Fincher, but, you know, shot the last couple of James Gray movies. He shot Uncut Gems.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's got two movies coming soon. The trailer would be the cinematographer from Uncut Gems.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. As Marvel taught me, he's got two other movies coming this year, Marty Supreme, Josh Safdie's new movie, and Eddington he's shooting the new Ari Aster movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, so. And so it would be this from all three of them. Yeah. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Mickey 17 is not being sold on any of those facts. But, you know, Darius Kanji favors darkness over light. He favors a kind of noirish style, a black and white style of film. And the movie is the, like, production design is kind of dingy cargo loader. It's a little bit more alien than Star Trek the Next Generation. You know, it's not a glimmering cool space movie. It is a movie about, like, industrialization funded by a mega church in which, like, the proletariat needs to survive.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Snowpiercer.

[Bill Simmons]

Very snowpiercer, I would argue. And that was what I was going to say is like, the movie to me is actually at its best and most coherent or at least flattering my own tastes when it is a little bit ominous and dark. And for example, there's a sequence early in the film when Mickey has signed up to become an expendable and he is sort of escorted by the actress Holiday Granger to go essentially have a physical and learn about the 3D printing technology, the big machine that makes the new Mickeys. And it's a little scarier. It's a little like out of the past. It's a little. It's a noir drama where a femme fatale is luring him into a space where he doesn't know where he's headed. And there's a sequence very late in the film, a dream sequence that I won't spoil in detail, but that also feels kind of unnerving and a little upsetting and a little out of place. And I feel like if the movie held that tone a little more consistently, you wouldn't have this great, fun, daffy Robert Pattinson performance. But you might have a movie that kind of hangs together a little bit more and you wouldn't have all this kind of tone spray that is happening.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that's definitely true. It would be picking a tone. I think the two sequences that you identify, they are still a little weird. They both still have Robert Pattinson and there are still moments of maybe not of humor, but of. Well, they do have humor, but humor is like the finishing touch.

[Bill Simmons]

They're just strange.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They're strange and in a way that is kind of funny.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And that is, I think, when Bong is most effective and also funniest. Like, I don't know if his broad comedy makes me laugh and it didn't make a ton of people in my screening like Laugh out loud. With one great exception. But I think all of his other movies are, like, very wryly, like, observed and. And deal with big problems and big ideas in sort of like a. A cynical, funny way, whether it's like, the government or the corporation. He is. He is often commenting by being like, this is weird and fucked up. And the only way I know how to process that is a little funny. So I agree that if he had leaned into that a bit more. For me, for me, it's when it's. When it's slapstick is. Is when you kind of lose it or. Lost me.

[Bill Simmons]

It's funny, though, because there's a. My favorite scene in the movie, I think, is when Marshall invites Mickey to have a dinner.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, that is like, you know, every. When you get it right, you get it right.

[Bill Simmons]

That, to me, is like, if you were going to make a slapstick movie, if you're going to make a Three Stooges movie on a spaceship, right. Pattinson can do it. Like, he has, like, a pratfall in this movie where I was like, holy shit, that's not a stuntman. Yeah. You know, like, you can see that. It's him flipping over furniture and falling and smashing glass and convulsing on the ground. Like, he's. He's game.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, to me, the. The best part of that is there is. There's some very uncomfortable singing. And then the way that Pattinson is, like, sort of reacting to it. I burst out. I was. I mean, it was perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

His stomach is turning while it's happening. Yeah, that's a. That moment is just really, really funny and almost. Is almost like a tease for what could have been.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. But that's a different movie than the movie that you're describing. It is totally, totally. It's. There is this sort of. And like, no one should ever have to pick Elaine. You know, that's like the. That's the magic of life.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's really cool that he got $120 million from an American studio to make a movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's. It's more that there are moments where you get this. He gets the slapstick right. And there are moments of that noir stuff, and then there are. There's some other stuff where it just kind of feels like they didn't get quite where they wanted to get in terms of tone.

[Bill Simmons]

It might have just been a sense that, like, it's a little character stuff to the movie at times. Like, I thought Steven Yeun is, like, a little bit wasted in this movie. He plays Teemo, Mickey's sort of, like, partner in crime at the beginning of the film. And then they both sign up for the expedition. Timo gets a more elevated role as a pilot, and he's an underhanded type, but he kind of, like, flits in and out of the movie and we never get invested. And the way his story was resolved I thought was really strange and felt very tacked on. I thought Naomi Ackee was really good, and I've been a little iffy on her. She's been in some really big movies. She's in a Star wars movie. She was Whitney Houston in I Want to Dance With Somebody. She was in Blink Twice. I think she's good in Blink Twice, but I didn't think that movie really hung together very well. So she's had a lot of bites at the apple. This, I thought, was the best. I thought she was very sexy and very strong in a part that was cool. We don't really get to know her that well because there are so many Mickeys around. But I liked, you know, she's playing a part that, like, a lot of men often play, and they've kind of inverted that role very cleverly. And so I liked her. I. I'm. I'm really torn on Toni Collette because I feel like if she's not going for it, why is Toni Collette in your movie? Like, you don't hire her for, like, a very subtle, quiet role. You know, that's not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, this isn't subtle.

[Bill Simmons]

But that's my point. That's my point. Like, she's. If you're gonna hire her, like, she's gotta play a big character. And she's playing, like, the some, like, Melania Hillary combination who's really obsessed with sauces and feeding her goofball husband sauces on camera. I enjoyed her. I don't know. It's kind of a mixed bag on the cast. I. I, going forward, have my eye on Anna Maria Vartolome, who we saw in Happening a few years ago. This is a very different performance than Audrey Dewan's Happening.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. But she's great.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. Very alluring actress.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. And also kind of. She is tasked with being kind of the normie, I think she's a human, and she's interested in. In Mickey in that way, if you will, and is sort of being like, manipulated by the marshals. But is there to just be kind of like, what's wrong with all of you?

[Bill Simmons]

Great news that in 2051, during space expeditions, we still listen to Elliot Smith in our little cabins. That was an interesting needle drop. I didn't see that coming, but shout out to Kai actress's name. Yeah, she's got great taste. She had that wonderful tea glass that Mickey was drinking from.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, just a lot of style in that one's really gross.

[Bill Simmons]

Disgusting.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, in a great way.

[Bill Simmons]

Snowpiercer. You know the protein bars from Snowpiercer? I thought of that too. Gross food and gross eating circumstances is kind of a bong signature. He follows it through on this one. So the Korean films versus the American films. Yeah, this seems like a clear pattern to me. Now this is what I wrote down. The Korean movies have a more acidic, bleak kind of like doom euphoria at their ending. There's like a carrot of redemption or freedom that is being waved in front of the characters faces at the end. But they're not happy endings. Like in Memories of Murder at the end, park is no longer a police officer. He returns to a murder site and he sees a little girl there and she tells him a story about a man she saw doing something there once. And then he just like looks into the camera and it's this like, oh my God, the killer's still out there. Yeah, we're all hopeless feeling.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right, Right, right.

[Bill Simmons]

At the end of Mother, all is revealed, if you haven't seen the movie. And then the mother goes on this kind of like reverie with all these other women. But she is also have to. Has to kind of like cope and push down her feelings about what has transpired with her son. Nanny of Parasite is even more complicated, but even more interesting because it sort of like starts where it ends where the father is trapped in the basement and the son needs to make enough money essentially to buy the house to free him from the basement. Which is like literalizing the metaphor of the movie, the American movies, like you mentioned, that Okja at the end does have this kind of painful image of the other pigs. Yeah, but you know, Mija and Okja.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Are reunited and they push the baby out of the pen and so. And then she's united, they're reunited, and then they have like another baby pig that like those super pig parents saved right from like death in this holding pen. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So that's sort of like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, that's not happy.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not sweet.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it's definitely sentimental and like, you know, a little and upsetting. But it's not like there is a very dark, upsetting image of like, of all of the pens and all the super pigs and the Pens and this, like, one tiny baby being pushed out. It's not happy. I think it stays with me. I don't know what your deal is with Okja, and I just like. I really. I like it. I agree that it's broader and, like I said, it's means Spielberg, but I think it's just.

[Bill Simmons]

It's very similar to Mickey 17, which I think the pacing is not good. I think there are, like, long stretches that don't work. It's the only crazy Jake Gyllenhaal performance I don't really get interesting. I'm not really a fan of it. I think Tilda Swinton is, like. Even though she and Bong are great friends, I think she has, like, misapprehended what the tone of his movies should be. Like, even I revisited Snowpiercer this weekend, thought it was even better than the first couple times I'd seen it. And she's the only one who. I'm like, why are you. Why is this the tone you went for with these characters like John Hurt and Ed Harris and Chris Evans and Sung Kang Ho? Like, they're all doing, like, a very kind of, like, gritty, contemplative thing, and she's doing, like, Margaret Thatcher on Molly. It's a really weird.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right, But. So that's three movies. That's the three American movies where we're sitting here saying, okay, like, the American actors who we normally like are just off.

[Bill Simmons]

No, no, no, no. That's not exactly how I feel like. I think that some of the American actors in some of the American movies are very good. Like, Pattinson is obviously great. I feel like what.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's not American.

[Bill Simmons]

Very fair point. I feel like what Paul Dano's doing in Okja is very good. I really like that. I also will say, and Snowpiercer, Chris Evans, that's, like, his best performance. He gets, like, an actual monologue in that movie that he nails, and it's ridiculous and in the wrong hands, could go terribly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Chris Evans Redemption Tour 2025. It's starting. We'll continue with the materialists.

[Bill Simmons]

I never doubted his talent.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess I'm singling out the villains.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so that this is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, there we go.

[Bill Simmons]

I wanted to go to this place. Which is that. Is it just that? Because even at the end of Snowpiercer, the polar bear moment is, like, kind of a hopeful moment. It's, like, a little scary, but it's a little hopeful, too. Is it just like, this is what Bong thinks of the Western world leadership.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Americans, like, I do, like, a little bit think that that's what.

[Bill Simmons]

We're ridiculous clowns.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. And we're seeing it from, like, from the inside. And, like, maybe it's a little bit that it doesn't reveal anything to us as Americans. Or maybe we just, like, don't like the tone. Like, you know, like, maybe, you know, I don't really want to. I not don't really. I really don't want to watch Trump in anything, so I also don't want to watch, like, Mark Ruffalo, like, lightly sending up Trump.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I generally do like that tone. I mean, I do like Terry Gilliam movies. I think they are. I don't love all of them, but Brazil is probably the closest comp that you could make to Mickey 17. I think that's like a five star movie. I think that's like a great film, a totally original movie. Kind of invented a tone in some ways. So to me, it's not that I reject that kind of story. I do like a darker story from him. And my favorite movies of his by far are the kind of like grounded, genre based ones about families and real people. That's definitely my preference on his stuff. Even the Host, which is fantastical, is very much like a family movie, but I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So is Okja.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, it is. It is. You're fighting for your fave.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's great. It works on me. You know, I won't try to disabuse you of that. It's the magic of, you know, the little kid thing works. Obviously, he's really, really good with creatures. Yeah. I mean, I agree that I never know what Jake Gyllenhaal is doing, but.

[Bill Simmons]

I usually dig it. It's a rare case where I don't dig it as much. Anything else on Mickey 17?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Pattinson's so good. I know we said that already, but it's kind of unreal to me. He is one of our great actors.

[Bill Simmons]

So this is like a stupid prompt, so I hope this isn't taken in bad faith, but a thing that occurred to me while watching it is that he is literally one of the great movie actors that we have right now. But I'm not sure that he's a very good movie star. And that seems like a pedantic thing to say, but it's a little hard to hang your movie on an actor without a movie star Persona. Now, Timothee Chalamet, I would argue, is also trying to do this. He's trying to be a great actor and a leading man for his generation simultaneously. This is hard to do. You know, Gene Hackman just passed. He had a real Persona.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You knew what you were doing about Hackman.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, like, Denzel Washington has a real Persona. Cruz has a real Persona. It doesn't mean they can't skew moved to different shades of it from time to time. But Pattinson is constantly reinventing himself. The way that he looks, the way that his voice sounds, his posture, his physical execution. He is Batman, but he's also the guy from the lighthouse.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

So, you know, you're gonna get a cool movie. More than likely, when you see a Robert Pattinson movie, I mean, you know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You'Re gonna get a hot weirdo, you know, and that's fine. That can be a personality too. Right. And you know that it will be transfixing. I agree with you that in terms of. It's a marketing challenge, if you will. And at. So Timmy is getting to a point where he's Timmy, right? You know, it's one word recogn. You know, name recognition. They cut to him 45 times at the Oscars. He, like. And he's also. He's doing the work. He's going on game day. He's, like, doing all his content.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's hosting snl. And Pattinson's shtick is, like, being very confused when Suki Waterhouse, like, calls him on the phone. Did you. Did you ever see that clip? Oh, this is so good. She was doing some sort of video interview and, like, does a prank where she calls him on video and is like, hey, they asked me to host Love is Blind. What do you think? And then it's like, actually, they want us to host it together. And it's just like, a minute of a half of it's really. And he's just on the other phone. On the other end of phone.

[Bill Simmons]

Is he in on that idea?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No. Eventually he. And eventually, I think he's like, darling, are you. Have you gone mental? Like, have you, like, is this a prank? And then when she says, yes, you're gonna be on the Internet, he's like, I don't want to. So it's really good. But he's like, okay. He is receding. Right. And. And. And being, like, weird and spacey and making pasta in the microwave and doing so that you can't plaster that on the billboards in the same way. You can't sell it in the same way. But you know what it is?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, it's great for us.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's strange. It's great.

[Bill Simmons]

It's Great for us. His next three movies are the Odyssey. Perhaps you've heard of it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Who is he in the Odyssey? Do we know?

[Bill Simmons]

TBA is what he's listed as. I don't think we know of any of the lead characters beyond Daemon and Holland. Die, My Love.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Charlize is in it, right?

[Bill Simmons]

Charlize is in it, yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's gotta be like Cersei, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. I don't know. What if she's not playing a classically female character? Have you considered that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know what, Sean? That's a great point.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you for acknowledging International Women's Month.

[Bill Simmons]

Vision of the world, whatever it is. Yes. Happy International Women's Weekend. What was it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thanks so much.

[Bill Simmons]

Was it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was International Women's Fortnite.

[Bill Simmons]

Happy International Women's Fortnight to you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it is the whole month?

[Bill Simmons]

It's the whole month.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. There's a lot of programming.

[Bill Simmons]

Is there also a National Women's Month?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Uh, no, we haven't gotten there.

[Bill Simmons]

You guys just get one month around the world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The majority of the population on this Earth only gets the one month to be invited to bullshit corporate events. Do those not get put on your calendar? Do they only get put on my calendar?

[Bill Simmons]

Rest assured, I get my fair share of bullshit corporate.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but, like, there's all this, like, programming about, like, women that they only do this month that just, like, shows up and they aren't inviting you. You don't have to participate.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm an ally.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I'm obviously not participating, but I'm more just asking that you don't get invited.

[Bill Simmons]

Are the other 11 months out of the year international Men's months?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, they are. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty cool.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty cool. How that worked out. Other movies Pattinson has coming in, the Die My Love, new Lynne Ramsey movie with Jennifer Lawrence.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Can't wait.

[Bill Simmons]

And the Drama, new Christopher Borgley movie opposite Zendaya. So.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

If you look at his.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, his cv, it's phenomenal.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There are no problems here. Stop making a problem.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not making a. I'm merely discussing a man's work.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think that I'm allowed to do that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, he can have it all.

[Bill Simmons]

Katsuki Waterhouse is really the question. This month she can.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, that's right.

[Bill Simmons]

Brady Courbet, James Gray, the Safdies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Robert Eggers, Christopher Nolan, Matt Reeves. Lest we forget, he was the Gray Heron in the Boy and the Heron dubbed version.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

So, Miyazaki Bong Joon Ho Nolan again. This is it. This is the guy I was waiting for. I've been waiting for a guy who's like, I'm a huge fucking film dork, but I'm also 6:2 and very, very handsome.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And so.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And now you have both Harris Dickinson and Robert Patton.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's my enemy. He's coming for myself.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So you've come around on that. You know, it's like, net bad.

[Bill Simmons]

No, because honest, if I invited him onto the show and we talked for an hour, I would be like, will you be my second wife?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that's good. Listen, we're all. We're all learning during Women's History Month.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, we are really learning. Okay. Bong movies. Any other. Any closing thoughts?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did really like it.

[Bill Simmons]

We just picked it apart for a while.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's why I started the conversation.

[Bill Simmons]

Second best movie of the year so far pretty easily.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And like, that's why I started the conversation being like, I don't really want to do this. It's such a weird feeling also to sit in a. To sit in the movies. And like, 15 minutes into this movie, I was both like, this is really excellent. And we just don't get movies this well made anymore. And also, I don't know if I'm totally keeping up. And I felt.

[Bill Simmons]

I felt like I could keep up with the story pretty well. I just felt the tonal mishmash.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I mean, I think that that's what I meant. Like, I, like, I'm like I'm on the ride wherever it's going. But do I, like, totally understand, you.

[Bill Simmons]

Know, a couple of other, like, things that were jumping out to me where there were specific structural choices? Starting the movie in the middle of the movie and then cutting back to the beginning of the movie is something that happens basically on every pilot of every TV show now. And I fucking hate it. I hate that move. I didn't like it in this movie. Just start us in the story. You don't have to tease us with something that's coming when it comes in the movie, because it didn't. That didn't reveal anything meaningful that we didn't know from the marketing of the movie. Right. Do you agree with me on this?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I mean, my solution would be to stop watching television as I have.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I do think I'm enjoying the White Lotus.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's not gonna happen for me. I started season two and that hotel looks very nice. And I got stressed out.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, you're missing out. This show's getting good. In the third season.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Everyone really likes it. Yeah, I think that that is great for other people.

[Bill Simmons]

Severance's a little bit of a downturn right now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Obviously, I wasn't even gonna try on Severance. Listen, I'm watching film. I believe in this.

[Bill Simmons]

What about the TV show Survivor?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, but has that turned around for you? They voted John Levittoff.

[Bill Simmons]

That was last season. He was the first person eliminated, which was very funny, if I'm being honest. I thought he handled it well, to be honest with you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, great.

[Bill Simmons]

This season has been good. These are the only three shows I'm watching at the moment. Although I intend to watch shrinking.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, you know, Harrison Ford. Hope you're well after your shingles diagnosis. I don't think I'm watching any television right now.

[Bill Simmons]

The last of us. Did you watch the first season of that, Sean?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Who are you like, you know, who are you sitting across from?

[Bill Simmons]

Very good show.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm watching film. I'm watching the films of Bong Joon Ho.

[Bill Simmons]

So Bong Joon Ho. Let's talk about his films. I'm gonna make you rank them with me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Bill Simmons]

I'm ready for my life to change. ABC Sundays. American Idol is all new. Give it your all. Good luck. Come out with golden ticket. Let's hear it. This is immense world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I've never seen anything like it.

[Bill Simmons]

And a new chapter begins. You're going to Hollywood. Carrie Underwood joins Lionel Richie, Luke Bryant and Ryan Seacrest on American Idol. New Sundays, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu. For a limited time, you can get.

[Amanda Dobbins]

KFC chicken with the sweet heat of hot honey.

[Bill Simmons]

And after one bite, you'll wonder, how do bees make hot honey so hot?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Are they special bees?

[Bill Simmons]

Does KFC have dragon bees? Fire breathing dragon bees that create spicy honey?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, silly.

[Bill Simmons]

There's no such thing. KFC just partnered with Mike's Hot Honey to drizzle all over their crispy chicken. But dragon bees would be so cool. Try it now for only $7 or share a box with friends for 25. Prices and participation vary. While Supplies last, taxes, tips and fees extra. This is a hard exercise, actually, because personal taste is very prominent here. So we're gonna have to do some negotiating. You know, I just wrote down some things that I think make him special, which is that he is a very visual filmmaker, but I think he's not the sort of filmmaker that irks you in that he's not purposefully athletic.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you.

[Bill Simmons]

He can see the movie very clearly in his mind, but he's not, like, virtuosically hammering you with his style. He, like, really leans character theme. Those are the things that matter to him most.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Fair to say the camera is in service of the story and ideas rather than ideas in service of a camera.

[Bill Simmons]

He has that perfect blend, too. I think of almost like Spielberg and Michael Haneke, where it's like, black heart but pure soul. You know, like, very cynical about the way that the world works but loves people. And that makes for a really unique blend. There's not a lot of directors, like. I wouldn't describe John Carpenter that way. I love John Carpenter, but John Carpenter. And John Carpenter loves his heroes, but he's like, we're in hell. We are in hell. And I think Bong is a little bit more optimistic about the human spirit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that he thinks that. I think he thinks, like, the world, like, we are in hell, but, like, kids, animals, and pure souls still exist among us, and we need to cherish all of them.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes. Would you. So I think he's. He's obviously a very political.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Ethical filmmaker. I don't think he's very preachy, except when he is. You know what I mean?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, preachy seems unfair. Unless you're, like, literally putting, like, a megachurch preacher as the villain of her film.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a pretty broad stroke.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But, like, maybe that's also the megachurch thing. Really just. I was like, what are this. It flummoxed me. I know evangelicals trump blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, like, this didn't seem like that fine, pointed of a critique. It was just, I guess that that's.

[Bill Simmons]

What we were talking about. It's like, it is a. An outsider's perspective on Western. No, I think it's very easy to say, too, that Marshall and the. The evil leadership figures in all of his films are not just their Western analogues. But. But when you have American or English actors portraying them, it's inevitable that you'll make that comparison. The number one thing for me with him is that he loves and respects genre in ways that feel very similar. To the way that I love and respect genre. But he does not get bogged down in the tropes. He doesn't feel like he has to fulfill the formulaic expectation of what happens in a monster movie, of what happens in a serial killer movie, of what happens in a Spielberg esque creature forward romp. Like he takes them and bends them and molds them to his own design, which I think is the single thing that distinguishes him from all of his peers and makes him really in that really upper, upper echelon of 21st century directors.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, he understands that genre can contain ideas. I mean he understands that genre is metaphor. Right. And like the possibilities of what like a monster or a. I mean really like a lot of monsters can express and have expressed in movies and in cinema for many years. But like is not willing. He's there for the big ideas and not just for like the gross out or for like Godzilla and Kong punching each other or whatever.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes, yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which was cool. But you know, I would watch his.

[Bill Simmons]

Godzilla and Kong punching each other movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, of course. Because he does it really well. He is like, he's actually, he is good with the creatures and their design and like the, and the way they look and the way they operate in the world. Which is not something that you can say for most people making creatures or sci fi movies right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. He reminds me, it's so hard to say this now because of what his. What he represents to movie culture at large, but he reminds me a lot of Peter Jackson. Peter Jackson's gotten really bogged down in being like he made three Lord of the Rings movies and then three Hobbit movies before that. He made really grounded genre movies, a couple of really gross movies that were idea forward. He came to Hollywood, made the Frighteners. He made a murder mystery movie that didn't really work that well. What was the name of that movie with Saoirse Ronan and Mark Wahlberg?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Lovely.

[Bill Simmons]

The Lovely Bones. Lovely Bones, yeah. Was it Saoirse Ronan? Was she the star? I can't remember.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sounds right.

[Bill Simmons]

Which kind of bombed. But he was going. Same thing. Kind of going for something like trying to use the same tones but in a different register. And if he hadn't made those three Hobbit movies, I'd love to know what the next three Peter Jackson movies would have been.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. But then you wouldn't have all of your lovely Hobbit memories with Chris.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, we had so many great Christmas.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Together so that he wouldn't have needed to let off steam just with Beatles stuff.

[Bill Simmons]

That's been great. I have no complaints about that. I think it's like this combination of. Of feeling that you find in the movies and the ability to execute on that feeling while understanding the history of movies. Like, these are two guys who've also, like, watched and absorbed everything, who are also obsessed with American movie culture, but are not from America. So they bring something new when they try to apply some of the tropes that were created here. His next movie is an animated underwater fantasia about deep sea creatures and humans. Now, for me, this is very exciting. This is a movie he's been thinking about, I guess, for like 10 years. He got started on, I guess, immediately after Parasite, but it's gonna take a long time to do. It's a Korean film, I think it's backed by CJ Entertainment, which backs all of his Korean movies. How do you feel about that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

He is good with creatures. Do we think it's scary or do we think it's something I can watch with Nox?

[Bill Simmons]

That's a really good question. I don't know. I should have asked him that. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure. Is it more Ponyo or is it more. I don't know. What's like a devilish grown up undersea monster movie? I mean, I guess Bullying the Heron. That's not really a movie for kids, right? That's a movie about trauma and fire and pain.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Porco Rosso. We've now watched it 5,000 times. Is it a movie for children?

[Bill Simmons]

You know what? The comp, I think is a movie that many people have been comparing Mickey 17 to, which is Nausicaa, which is another Miyazaki movie that is very sci fi and very odd. So if I had to guess, I would say more Nausicaa. Okay, that'd be my guess. All right. Ranking these movies. Yeah, we're not doing any of the shorts. I haven't seen all the shorts. I've only seen a couple of his shorts. I. This is the challenge here is that you really like Okja and I don't. I don't hate it, but to me, it is like the. The least of the big movies. It's not less than Barking Dogs Never Bite, which is kind of like a trial run. His first movie, more of a pure comedy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Great points are made about, you gotta take care of your dogs. Yes. You have to. Folks, we can't do this anymore. We can't. It's not the dog's fault. It's you. But for the love of God, I'M just trying to sleep for five hours straight at night. Just fucking manage. Your dogs.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think they should be muscled? What do you think should happen? I think, should they be tranquilized every night?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Your child scream all night outside?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you don't. I don't let that happen. But it may happen from time to time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's not outside.

[Bill Simmons]

We were watching the Aristocats yesterday, my daughter and I, and she was like, I really like cats, and I don't like dogs. And that was a real blow.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a blow in our household.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, maybe it's because dogs are often scary when they're not tended to by their owners.

[Bill Simmons]

It's funny that this movie, which is sort of about an investigation, is like a trial run for memories of murder in some ways. And you can tell kind of what animates is interesting, this kind of story. But I think barking dogs and everybody is like, to me, the one. I. I think I've only seen it once. It's not something I return to. Not a movie I love. It's good. You can see the makings of a really cool filmmaker that would be at the bottom.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm fine with that. I'm just. I'm already mad that you're trying to put Okja next. That's so insane. You have no heart. Does Okja change for you at all now that you are the father of a daughter in this, our month of women?

[Bill Simmons]

Um, I think. I think to me, it's a. This next stage is a battle between Mickey 17 and Okja. I think those are. I think those are the seven and six spots.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. I would agree. I would put Mickey 17 at seven and Okja at. At six. I just. Okja is more wholly formed. To me.

[Bill Simmons]

Neither of these movies are bad. That's not what I'm saying.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No one. No one is saying that. We. We did a whole thing at the top about this is. This is one of our great working filmmakers. We love him. You're the one who said we had to rank them. So I'm putting Mickey 17 at 7.

[Bill Simmons]

Mickey 17 is at 7. Okja is at 6. I find that a little hard to bear, but I'll accept it because we're working in partnership.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I would not accept it any lower. And I think that your heart is closed off, and I don't know what's wrong with you.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, so the remaining films are Memories of Murder, the Host Mother.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Come on. Would you just send to the office? That's so great. Wow.

[Bill Simmons]

The chase scene in Okja is Phenomenal. It's like some of the best shit you'll see in a movie in the 2010s. Yeah, the movie on the whole, it's okay. Well, it's cool.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We're taking back your father and daughters card.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, number five. Five movies left.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

We almost should, like, cut to the chase and be like, parasite one. What goes 5432, am I right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Some people would say Memories of Murder is his best movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. It's really good.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's extremely influential. I think it's a great. The kind of unsolvability of life is a great idea for a serial killer movie. Sung Kang Ho is like, amazing in this movie. If Sung Kang Ho is in your movie, it's probably a good bong movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You're doing well.

[Bill Simmons]

I feel like it's two Memories of Murder. I do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I'm good with that. I like it.

[Bill Simmons]

So then the order of the next few is a little trickier. So.

[Amanda Dobbins]

5, 4, 3.

[Bill Simmons]

5, 4, 3. And we have parasite one and memories of murder two. Memories of murder, for those of you who haven't seen it, hugely influenced by David Fincher and then went on to influence David Fincher, they have this great kind of back and forth thing going. The use of Darius Kanji is another interesting thing going on there in the future for Bong. It's a confusing and funny and dark and sad movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

7.

[Bill Simmons]

Bong. Bong, bong, bong, bong. Okay. 5, 4, 3. The Host, Snowpiercer and mother. And mother. Now, mother has the best ending in my opinion.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Snowpiercer is the most propulsive.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

The host has probably the highest highs.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I like the host the best.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I do. But I. I like Bong in mean Spielberg mode, as we said, which, you know, that is down to like the shots of everyone being like, looking at wonder, you know, on the other side of the camera. And then it's this. This animal also, you know, another, you know, little girl protagonist.

[Bill Simmons]

True.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And. But like I real heavy dose of cynicism about the government.

[Bill Simmons]

That great 1950s style sci fi movie opening, pouring the formaldehyde down the drain.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Prescient in a lot of ways in terms of pandemics and response to illness. So I'm team the host. And because it does also, you know, it does that thing of this is like a straight up creature movie, but is really about a lot of other things, both, you know, political and familial.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not opposed to putting the host at three okay. This was my entry point for Bong for sure. This is the first time I heard about him or saw any of his movies. And I didn't see Mother when it was released. It is the movie, though, that feels the most connected to Parasite, and not just because it's kind of a lower stakes. Not lower stakes, more grounded story, I should say, about a family and about violent crime and delusion and expectation of what life can be or should be class. All these things that he's always interested in. Snowpiercer's tricky. I was surprised rewatching it and then reading some contemporaneous reviews and then even just like letterboxd reviews of people being like, this is pretty cool. I'm like, what? Like, I, I, I'm. I think it's, like, really, really great. Now, the first the, those top three movies, Parasite, Memories of Murder and the Host, are, are great, Great, great. Yeah, you know, they're, they're like, they'll be in the conversation for our 25 or 25. Right? They're like, those are the movies you put near the top of the conversation. Snowpiercer has stuff in it that is like Michael Bay, James Cameron, like, right. But incredible science, sci fi, action staging.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally. But it's, you know, it's a taste thing and he can do it all, and that's why he's one of our great. But you're just like, you know, you're like, Michael Baylight just went on, you know, and I did, you know, he.

[Bill Simmons]

Debuted a parkour documentary at south by Southwest this weekend.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What?

[Bill Simmons]

Yo, Michael Bay, keep doing your thing, man. Don't let the haters get you down.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Also, listen, did you read the Big Jim quote about how Avatar 3 is gonna be the largest Avatar yet? Because the previous two didn't have any room for character?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, he's got Kate Winslet. Now he's letting Kate Winslet cook in Avatar 3. Fire and ash.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So those guys continue to be those.

[Bill Simmons]

Guys in Snowpiercer when they, when they start pushing forward to break through with the, like the, the rolling tube that pushes open all the doors. That shit is cinema. That is crack to me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's awesome. It's. Listen, no one's denying that. It's just kind of like Alison Pill.

[Bill Simmons]

Holding a machine gun.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Very important stuff. Okay, so we can put it at 4. I'm fine with that. I think it would be sort of lame also in our rankings to just have, like, the three American films at the bottom.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, interesting. You know, well, Barking Dogs, everybody.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. But you know what I mean?

[Bill Simmons]

I think they're tied. I think Mother and Snow Piercer are tied because I think. I think Mother is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, if I were doing this alone, I would put Mother at four.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, Mother at four. That's fine. I can do. No, I can do that. It's International Women's Month. We must acknowledge our mothers.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is about an international woman.

[Bill Simmons]

She certainly is. She does extraordinary things for her son in this film. I think it's more like tag them.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What do we care?

[Bill Simmons]

Falling in people's estimation or something. It was a big. It was a cause celeb movie because of Harvey Weinstein. When it came out, he wanted to cut it down. There was a big fight about that. The international hoi pulhoi was like, protect Bong. He's falling prey to the same thing that so many American and English filmmakers fell prey to with Harvey. Harvey obviously has been completely ejected from society, is rotting in prison. That's all great. The movie itself though still kicks ass. I'm not taking anything away from the top four. They're like either 10 out of 10 or 9 out of 10 movies here. Snowpierce is more like an 8 out of 10 for me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you want to make it like a. Okay, listen. You know, my hands are like. It's the spirit of generosity here.

[Bill Simmons]

I appreciate it. During International Women's Month, women are once again being generous.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think like the weird TNT show. Didn't they do like a Snowpiercer show?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yes. I never watched one second of it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Nor have I. But do you think people have like a. Were you accidentally reading Snowpiercer TV reviews on Letterfox?

[Bill Simmons]

I wasn't. They don't yet offer those TV reviews. Just miniseries, I think. Snowpiercer TV show. Let's look at some of the. Oh yeah, Jennifer Connelly was on the show. I remember Daveed Diggs. He was the actor who jumped out. To me, this is a fairly star studded show. I. I never thought to myself while watching Snowpiercer what else happened. You know, it's a pretty straightforward story about to train a lot of really good ideas.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, that's sort of TV and Marvel disease, which is another really great thing about the films of Bong. And he works in these genres that can be like, you know, cinematic universalized. And they're tight ships, literally in most cases.

[Bill Simmons]

It's interesting that you say that too because we're being a little critical of some of this broad political commentary that's in his movies, especially American Inflected political commentary. There was going to be a parasite TV series which was gonna be created or Produced by Adam McKay. Now, Adam McKay does a very similar thing, sometimes successfully, sometimes not so much where he takes these big, obvious tropes. You know, here is Dick Cheney. Here is climate change. Let's make fun of how we are not acknowledging the absolute nightmare of these circumstances. The Parasite show never really came to fruition, though I have heard Bong say recently that it is not a dead property. It's supposed to be an HBO show.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Again, another movie where I was like, that is a diamond. I don't know if we need any more. You know, it's okay to just leave something where it is and let it exist so beautifully. We were talking about whether or not Parasite has the Best Picture belt on the last mailbag and got some pushback. You may be surprised to hear the listeners of the show, they had feedback. Can you believe that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

They have opinions.

[Bill Simmons]

Can you believe that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

And we're listening to them.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I'm acknowledging that they exist. I think that the way that Bill sees that enterprise is that the eras change, and you have to acknowledge the changing of the eras so that, like, is Parasyte a better movie than Lawrence of Arabia? It is not. But in its time, does it represent the greatest possible best Picture winner? And does it represent the kind of the world that we live in, the modes of filmmaking? You don't understand what I'm saying.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I do, but, like, why are you explaining it to me as if I didn't just immediately say, parasite has the belt?

[Bill Simmons]

I'm so. Well, I'm not sure if you had thought through it in that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Why don't you just go ahead and apologize, you know, and say, I was wrong and Amanda was right.

[Bill Simmons]

I will not say that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like, I didn't have to think too hard about it.

[Bill Simmons]

Is that how you understood it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Does it matter?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, I'm asking you sincerely.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, probably. I mean, I don't. I honestly, like, didn't think that hard about it.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, that's what I'm getting my finger under right there. I didn't think too hard about it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it's a fucking podcast, right? You know, but if we were going to have a conversation of, like, what is. Yes, what is the best Best picture winner of all time? I would answer it differently. I wouldn't answer it as, like, impulsively, as I did just say to.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what's interesting about that one, though? I'm gonna unpack it here as we get towards the end of this conversation.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Great.

[Bill Simmons]

We haven't revisited that movie yet. I suspect we'll have an opportunity to talk about it in the future. I think that maybe not. Maybe not. We haven't determined that yet. I wonder if it will be the best picture winner that we cover on this show. The best best picture winner. Oh, over its time and let's just even being generous, let's say this show runs five, seven, ten more years. Who the hell knows? Like will it even represent. I'm not saying it will. For the record, I got like eight more weeks in May, but I think it's possible that and then the cat.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't think they let 50 year olds on YouTube.

[Bill Simmons]

I beg to differ. And when we will break that mold and you know who will break it first? Chris Ryan. I think the challenging thing about it is that there were many other movies that were worthy of winning that year.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, you know it's 2017 and 2019 were like incredibly stacked years. And then the rest of the years we were just like you know, shuffling around looking for a race.

[Bill Simmons]

2019 best picture. I mean obviously we loved Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. We both talked about it a lot that season. 1917 was the biggest challenger to it. I wouldn't have picked that as my best picture of the year but it was a movie that I liked. I think it got a little bit dinged in comparison to all the parasite love and ultimately Parasite emerged victorious.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Also all the its reply guys were much.

[Bill Simmons]

And you love Joker as I recall that was nominated for best picture that year, the Irishman which I think is damn good and definitely did not deserve to go over 10 in a normal year. I would be stumping for it as potential winner.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I like probably top five for Scorsese for me.

[Bill Simmons]

Is it really?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't. I mean I guess not when we, when we go through because there are so many but like really, really, really underrated.

[Bill Simmons]

I was a huge fan. Little Women and and Marriage Story. I'm very curious to see how the J. Kelly thing plays out because we may look back. I hope it's great and I hope Bombach gets everything that I feel he deserves. One of our favorites. But you know, Marriage Story, that's like one of the best episodes I think we ever did of this show.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And that was a. That's a really deep, fun, cool, smart movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The Oscars we love L A montage finished with that. That Halloween shot and then I like almost started.

[Bill Simmons]

That was very good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Little. There were a couple of Movies that appeared too many times in that montage. Like three la la land.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, that montage was definitely like 2015 and later, you know, and that's like.

[Bill Simmons]

It did feel that way.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They filmed most movies here. Just like, historically speaking.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah, that was a good year. And so Parasite won in that year, which is kind of amazing. You know, you could really make the case, like, oh, another acknowledgment of Scorsese's greatness, or Tarantino finally getting over the hump and getting a Best Picture winner, or, you know, Joker was never going to win. But, like, even a movie like that, which is like a billion dollar phenomenon with the best actor, that's the sort of thing you normally see go forward and win. So its legacy is. Has the power to be very powerful.

[Amanda Dobbins]

My favorite movie of that year.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

A stuff. And I love all those movies.

[Bill Simmons]

So later this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Why is the Narnia thing happening? When can greta move on?

[Bill Simmons]

November 2026.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Jesus Christ. And that's fine, but, you know, just Little Women was so good.

[Bill Simmons]

Greta Gerwig's two most recent movies will be the Chronicles of Narnia and Barbie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Barbie. I mean. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So who among us is what, I ask you? I liked Barbie, but who among us.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, also has two sons? I believe it's cool. It's expensive.

[Bill Simmons]

Definitely costs money. Absolutely. Consider thunderbolts asterisk, you know, wither thunderbolts.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What if I love it?

[Bill Simmons]

It's not out of the realm of possibility. It basically stars Florence Pugh as a badass assassin.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. Yeah. And then, like, a lot of cute jokes, you know? Yeah, I don't. Cute jokes aren't really working for me anymore.

[Bill Simmons]

Cute jokes. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let's bring back real humor. I need to laugh again.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Real humor, absolutely. Like the Devil Wears Prada, the funniest movie ever made. What is real humor? What represents real humor to you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, what is the funniest movie ever made to me?

[Bill Simmons]

We're kind of burying this convo at the end of this episode.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, well, I'm just. I guess I'm trying to think. I'm trying to think of, like, what made me, like, laugh the most. And it definitely would have been something that I saw from the ages of, like, 10 and 21. Like, Zoolander made me laugh a lot.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. This is like a slight age difference between us, but there's like a. There's a run of Happy Gilmore. Tommy boy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I was gonna say, like, Tommy. Like those movies, Tommy Boys in theaters.

[Bill Simmons]

When you were 11. Yeah, it was insane.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

As an older person, I have a couple of very, you know, like three that jumped to mind immediately. Team America, World Police, Borat and Jackass. The movie. All three of those where it felt like everybody in the movie theater was like, holy shit, dude, this is amazing. You know, like we don't. You know, the hangover was honestly like that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Superbad.

[Bill Simmons]

Superbad was like that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Super bad. Honestly. Oh, God. Anchorman. Very funny. But I feel like the most I remember laughing was like at weird David Letterman skits, like at the age of like 11, you know, again, because it finds you at the right time. Well, I know, but bring back humor.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I. Why are we talking about funny movies?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thunderbolts and whether it'll be funny.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. You don't want any more cute humor in your Marvel films. You want the pure comedy experience of a David letterman sketch from 1996.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I would love to. Yeah, There we go.

[Bill Simmons]

I would argue that that's actually specifically what they are iterating on, but it's just not going that well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly.

[Bill Simmons]

Incredible way to make a Mickey 17 sandwich with thunderbolts bread today. How'd you feel about that at the top and the bottom?

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, every day I come to work and I just. And I do my best to do my job as international woman in my month.

[Bill Simmons]

So next or later this week on the show, we're talking about one of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The great international women, I would argue.

[Bill Simmons]

The greatest movie of the year so far. Me too. And a great international woman, Cate Blanchett. We're building her hall of fame, which will be interesting. Have you started your research?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No. So I, I was literally a lot of films. I was just typing Cate Blanchett filmography, because I did.

[Bill Simmons]

She did a lot of films.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I have seen a lot of them.

[Bill Simmons]

Probably most of them. I would argue you've seen like 80 to 90% of them already. This is not a Nicole Kidman situation where you're like, what is this Australian movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Because she.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What is this? What is Truth?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, truth. Is the movie about CBS News.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, no.

[Bill Simmons]

I have a lot of strong thoughts about that movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm obviously gonna have to watch this. Even though it's not gonna be good.

[Bill Simmons]

It is like legit a zero star movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Robert Redford as Dan Rather.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This is gonna be incredible. Hate watching for me.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not a fan of that movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

She's fine in it. Blanchett. Quite a cv. It's gonna be a long and in depth conversation.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I can't wait for you to explain the plot of all of the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbits movies to me.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, she doesn't play a huge role in those films. She has a key role. Galadriel.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Is she Queen of the Elves? I think that's right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You tell me, buddy.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't really remember. Okay, I got to revisit those movies. Me and CR we are going to do the Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit pot at some point. I don't know when that's going to be. Maybe when you have a third baby, literally. Will you give birth in International Women's Month? That would be fun. Thanks to Sasha Aschel for filling in for Bobby Wagner producing the show today. Thanks to Gahao also for filling in for Jack Sanders today. We will return with more discussion of women and their month and internationalism. Thank you for listening. We'll see you soon.