‘One Battle After Another’: A Second Opinion With Van Lathan

Summary

The Big Picture — ‘One Battle After Another’: A Second Opinion With Van Lathan

Date: October 5, 2025
Host: Sean Fennessey (B), with Amanda Dobbins (C) and Van Lathan (A)
Episode Overview:
In this special episode, Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins are joined by Van Lathan for a candid, challenging, and spirited discussion centered on the new film One Battle After Another—a movie with significant Oscar buzz, a massive budget, and complicated questions about representation and the state of the film industry. What begins as a standard review rapidly evolves into a nuanced exploration of race, artistic freedom, the economics of filmmaking, and how different standards are applied to filmmakers of different backgrounds.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Dissecting One Battle After Another: The group analyzes the film’s artistic merit, its portrayal of Black women, and discusses the critical discourse around its release and box office performance.
• Industry Double Standards: The discussion examines who gets to make big, ambitious films in Hollywood, with a particular focus on race, gender, and access to resources.
• Representation and Responsibility: The hosts wrestle with what "responsible" representation means both in storytelling and industry decision-making.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hollywood Economics, Privilege, and Access

• Van Lathan’s Perspective:

  • Lathan expresses frustration over how financial responsibility is demanded from less-established, often minority filmmakers, while “genius” white male directors can access massive budgets without the same commercial scrutiny.
  • Quote:

    “The responsibility, both creatively and financially for a piece of art has to exist with the haves and the have nots alike.” —Van (08:39)

• Amanda’s Counterpoint:

  • She emphasizes that creative freedom should be celebrated, wishing more filmmakers—especially those from underrepresented backgrounds—had equal access to resources. However, she acknowledges this is “fantasy land.”
  • Quote:

    “I want to celebrate the fact that someone is getting to use the money to do what they want and say, we should, like, more people should get to do that. But that’s a fantasy land.” —Amanda (09:30)

• Double Standards on Budgets:

  • The group contrasts the treatment of directors like Paul Thomas Anderson versus Black filmmakers like Ryan Coogler or Spike Lee, noting the latter must outperform at the box office to access opportunities for larger projects.
  • Quote:

    “The guy who made Mo’ Better Blues has never gotten a $170 million budget…that guy just put a movie out a couple weeks ago that opened in two cities, was made for like 15 or 20 million.” —Van (11:49)
    “Even after [Coogler’s] movie opened, they still counted his money.” —Van (13:39)

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2. The Movie’s Characters & Representation of Black Women

• Van’s Critique:

  • Lathan argues the film’s most high-profile Black female character, Perfidia Beverly Hills, is portrayed in a way that perpetuates damaging tropes of selfishness and irresponsibility—a particular sting given the tradition of Black female revolutionaries prioritizing community over self.
  • Quote:

    “It’s just an interesting standpoint to watch a white male writer-director put a Black female character in…what you really kind of got was someone that was so grotesquely selfish and unaware that everyone that she met was worse off because of it.” —Van (35:17)

  • He compares this to other, more empathetic portrayals (like Jacqui Brown), and notes that the nuances of such roles deeply matter, especially against the backdrop of historical Hollywood misrepresentations.
  • Quote:

    “When Quentin Tarantino decided he was going to orient his movie around a Black woman, he treated her with so much care…she almost floats around on clouds and watches the chaos around her…it's a very empowering performance.” —Van (46:19)

• Amanda’s Nuanced Response:

  • She notes the performance's complexity, and suggests that while the film does attempt some exploration of these issues (e.g., postpartum, agency), it might not land for all audiences.
  • Quote:

    “If the exploration, maybe…and maybe it doesn't. But if it did, would that mitigate it? Or is it…” —Amanda (41:12)

• Sean’s Analysis:

  • He argues that art can and should provoke discomfort, rather than always providing moral exemplars, and worries about the line between representation critique and accidental censorship.
  • Quote:

    “Once you start saying, this was the worst part of the movie because I didn't like what it showed…that's in the territory of, like, borderline censorship that I'm ultimately not comfortable with.” —Sean (49:08)

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3. Nuance, Friction, and the Value of Conversation

• Acknowledgement of “Unsolved Problems”:

  • The hosts agree the episode’s conversation demonstrates why it’s vital for critics, creators, and audiences to keep interrogating representation—especially as the industry evolves.
  • Quote:

    “That’s what art does. We have the conversation, and so that's what art does.” —Van (64:23)

• Importance of Artistic Freedom AND History:

  • Van clarifies he’s not advocating for “policing” creative choices, but believes there must be a reckoning with why certain depictions are celebrated and rewarded.
  • Quote:

    “After generations, we do just start to ask why…if we’re going to have these conversations intra-communally…we certainly gotta have them [for Oscar contender films].” —Van (51:33)

• Representation Fatigue:

  • Van reflects, with some weariness, on the recurring challenge of voicing these critiques (“the drag at the party”), highlighting how persistent these structural discussions are within Black art criticism and fandom.
  • Quote:

    “It's like this guy. I've been this guy for so long.” —Van (60:12)

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4. The Film’s Artistic Merits—and Limitations

• Critical Acclaim and Hype (“the gas”):

  • Van admits the movie is excellent, funny, and boasts strong performances, but doesn't personally connect to the near-unanimous aclaim it’s been receiving.
    • Quote:

      “I legitimately don’t understand the gas. Like, honestly, honestly don’t understand the gas.” —Van (28:32)

  • Amanda and Sean admit their bias as super-fans, and joke about their “irrational” love for PTA’s work.
    • Quote:

      “This is your Marvel.” —Van (32:53)

• Cultural and Thematic Ambitions:

  • They praise the film’s ability to spark reflection and challenge audiences, noting its balancing act between weighty ideas and genuine entertainment.
  • Quote:

    “There's something to be said about a movie that deals in such weighty stuff that you can still have a good time with.” —Van (62:43)

• On the Legacy of the Film:

  • Sean closes by affirming that movies like this provoke needed dialogue, even if (or especially when) they are not universally comfortable.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The better people think you are, the more they allow you to fail.” —Van (33:50)
• “When black women roll their eyes, my innate response is, what's wrong?... And there's some eye-rolling that's going on right now, and I understand why the eye-rolling is going on.” —Van (54:52)
• “This movie is some fuck shit. It's a good movie. Not the best movie ever made. It doesn't hold a candle to Parasite… But it's also some fuck shit.” —Van (68:55)
• “We haven’t completely reformed and reshaped America… But we certainly… have overcome a wilderness that wanted to kill us. We have. So we can overcome, and we will.” —Van (65:33)

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Discussion Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 02:03 — The hype and business pressures behind One Battle After Another
• 03:30–08:44 — Van Lathan's perspective on industry disparities
• 10:36–13:39 — Budget double standards for Black vs. white male filmmakers
• 19:35–21:54 — Case study: Nia DaCosta’s career trajectory and structural change
• 28:32–35:25 — Van critiques the film’s portrayal of Black women, specifically Perfidia Beverly Hills
• 38:49–53:44 — The line between critique and censorship; representations and their afterlives
• 62:31–64:23 — Final thoughts on the movie’s merits; reiteration that critical conversations are vital

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Overall Tone & Takeaway

Rich with personal anecdotes, passionately honest, frequently witty but deeply serious, this episode pushes listeners to reflect on the films they love and the systems that produce them. Van Lathan’s contributions, at once empathetic and challenging, demand an honest reckoning with the realities of contemporary filmmaking for Black creators and characters. The hosts agree: the power of great cinema is in its ability to provoke conversations like this—on the mics and beyond.

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For more on this episode:

• Follow Van Lathan on Twitter [@VanLathan] for continued debate (69:37)
• Listen for more Oscars coverage, deep-dive movie reviews, and unmissable industry insight on The Big Picture.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

I'm Sean Fennese and this is the big picture. You are getting a very special conversation episode. We were making an episode earlier this week about the Smashing Machine. Van Lathan was here, Amanda was here, and we were excited to talk about that movie. But we were also excited to talk because Van and I have been having private conversations over the last two weeks or so about one battle after another. What does one battle after another mean? What does it mean to the box office? What does it mean to culture at large? What does it mean about representation? And we got off, as we often do when Van is on the show, on a long tangent and a deep, I thought, very thoughtful exploration of a lot of the ideas that are packed inside the movie and externally in the film going culture right now. So we've decided to just make this its own episode. Van is always a very special guest, but this was a uniquely fun and deep conversation that the three of us were able to have. So I hope you will enjoy it. I hope you will receive it in good faith. I hope you will understand that we're trying to explore something that is sometimes very complicated and dicey. Representation wise, intellectually, emotionally, and especially for me, for a movie that I care about so, so, so deeply. So I hope you enjoy this deep excursion into the internal and external worlds of one battle after another with Van Lathan. This episode is presented by LinkedIn ads.

[C]

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[B]

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[B]

A movie that has been hotly tabbed for the Academy Awards is one battle after another.

[A]

Oh, here we do it. Oh yeah.

[B]

It's been a long road. Long road to this conversation.

[A]

A long, long road.

[B]

Doing like that up and down. Um, we have both alluded to on our podcast the conversation that we had, the conversations you've been having.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Um, I wanted you to be able to express what you were, what you were saying in the realm to the release of the movie. And also I want to hear what you think about the movie and, and. And how you feel about what you were expressing in the aftermath.

[A]

All right, film bros. I come in peace. I come in peace. Um, this is what I was expressing. And I do understand both sides of this argument and is particularly being in a place where you're trying to create films and get films out there first. Let me go back to just me, period. Because those are just opinions from me. I am all about the have not creator. All about the person that doesn't have what they need. And how does the person that doesn't have what they need, how do they get a chance to talk? How do they get a chance to. I am at this point in my career not really that person. Like, I know a lot of different people. I can get my opinions out. I can do what I need to do to make the stuff that I need to make. But there are a lot of people who can't. And these stories that these people are trying to tell are just so important to them. I mean, if you ever sit down with someone who has a script or has an idea and they sit in front of you with this full understanding of the weight of what their life has been and what their artistic expression is, and then you have to explain to them, okay, well, this is what we have to do. Then you take them to a meeting where they go, you need to put a rapper in your movie, or you need to funnel it through this person's. And you just watch slowly as the life gets sucked out of this person and as their thing that they had becomes something else. But they want to see it. It's tough being on that side of it, right? And it's. People go, we give you three. And just for movies like this, we need to know that you can make five or six. And you're million. You mean million dollars. Right? And that's not across the board. There are plenty of films getting made by plenty of amazing director who. And they are there, and people are making them for the art. It's still happening. Then there's this other side. And I think this is something that's both a reaction to some of the filmmaking that's happened in the last 10 or 15 years, and also an appreciation of some of the filmmakers to where gigantic budgets are being given to people that we know are amazing filmmakers. And these films don't have any of those same constraints. There are people on the other end of this that are going, man, they earned that. You're right. They earned it. How you gonna sit down and talk to the director of. Talk about the director of the master and then talk about how much money he should be given to make a movie? It's a silly thing to do, but somebody has to do it. And the reason why I'm saying this, I'm not talking about the budget itself. I'm talking about the idea that the film doesn't have to be profitable or the idea that the movie. There's one part of the equation that it just doesn't have to meet. To me, the health of the industry for the smaller filmmaker denotes that someone should say, hey, everyone should have to at least care to a degree about the fiscal responsibility of the movies that they're making because they're asking the smaller filmmakers to, to do that. And they're pinching pennies when they give them money. Even sinners. Sinners comes out, sinners fuck before the movie. He gets $90 million to make it. Forget about before the movie. The movie actually opens. It opens big. And the immediate conversation was, okay, this is a big opening, but look how much further this film has to go to attain profitability. Now there's a whole audience of people that honestly did not care whether or not sinners made money at all because it was a cultural celebration of. And it seemed as if the town was directly saying, yeah, but this is going to significantly alter and change filmmaking if this movie doesn't make money. And so everybody went, fuck it, we going to see it right? Over and over and over and over again because we need to see more filmmakers.

[B]

That was one reason why there were people just like it.

[A]

They liked it. And the word of mouth was crazy, right? I saw that bitch four times. And that was because. It was also because of that he sold me on the Kodak shit, the 10 minute Kodak thing. I had to see the movie.

[B]

It's related to what we're discussing here, right?

[D]

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[A]

This film comes out 170. The tracking says 22. And all I said was Nahi needs to make money. And the reason why I'm saying it is just me trying to keep the same energy even amongst the geniuses. I've had so many conversations with so many people that I respect about this. There were some filmmakers or people that I know that reached out, prominent ones, and said, what you said is true. And then there were others that said, let me explain to you why what you're talking about is actually not the way to look at it. I respect both schools of thought. The only thing that I'm saying is that there still has to be someone who is saying that. And I guess this is what I'm saying, that the responsibility, both creatively and financially for a piece of art has to exist with the haves and the have nots alike. That's all that I was trying to say.

[B]

I think it's a reasonable thing to be asking for. That is unrealistic to expect.

[C]

Okay, well, I think that I. I agree with. I agree with you. But also it leads me to a different conclusion, which is really our experience in life. Okay, which is just like that the commodification of art produces inequality and bummer outcomes that disproportionately affect, you know, people without resources, people starting out, people who don't make art, who haven't made a ton of art, and then who, thus, because they have to get fed in a system to make their art, don't get to make it the way that they want. That sucks. That's bad. I think. And I wish that that were not the case. I think that this is an example of someone using money and the commodification of art to their own goals. And to like. Because PTA escaped the system for whatever reason, like, I don't think he should be punished. I think we should just. We should celebrate that and be like, he got a ton of money from a corporation that we don't like very much to do whatever he wants and more people should get to do that. You know, And I. And I, to Sean's point, like, you're right that it's more like more people are not going to get to do that and it's unfair. But I don't want to punish him. I don't, like, I don't want to celebrate the corporation. You know, I don't want to celebrate the. I Want to celebrate the fact that someone is getting to use the money to do what they want and say, we should, like, more people should get to do that. But that's not. That's like. That's a fantasy land. No, no, no, no.

[A]

I agree with you. And this is where I have to be the bummer.

[C]

I mean, it is.

[A]

And so let's go ahead and inject race.

[C]

Of course. Yeah. It's a white filmmaker. I get it.

[A]

And so not just white filmmaker, but, like, also, man. Right, sure. So the bummer of it is that in the movies that PTA has made, right, like all of these films, these are highly artistic, very ambitious movies, and they are accepted and lauded because a lot of times they don't need to be culturally translated. So if you have a certain filmmaking understanding, you get punch drunk love. You get the master, you get inherent vice, you get these movies, Right? A lot of our filmmakers and a lot of our films, black people and women and queer filmmakers, their magnum opuses aren't received the same way. So the question is, how are they going to become pta?

[B]

What do you mean by that?

[A]

Meaning that.

[B]

I don't know if I agree with that.

[A]

Meaning that the guy who just made. The guy who made Mo Better Blues has never gotten a $170 million budget. The guy who made Malcolm X and do the Right Thing and Bamboozled and that guy never got a $170 million budget. I mean, that guy just put a movie out a couple of weeks ago that opened in two cities, was made for like 15 or 20 million dol.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

What was it? No, no, no. Was it made for. No.

[B]

Highest to lowest is made for a lot more money than that.

[A]

Okay, what was it made for?

[B]

I'm. There's. It's. If it's under 50, I'll be stunned.

[A]

Okay, 50.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I'll be stunned.

[A]

Action.

[B]

Set pieces. Denzel, paycheck.

[A]

Well, I can be honest with you. That piece look like a lot of.

[C]

People turning off highest to lowest after. After 40 minutes, which I understand why, but they're missing, you know, once again.

[A]

So all I'll say, I think the.

[B]

170 is what's got. And if it is 171.

[A]

51, 30, whatever it is.

[B]

That feels new and big. That's a really big number for a filmmaker who's never made it, had made a movie that has made more than $75 million. What I was trying to say when I was talking about earlier this week is, and this is just a major Anomaly, real quick.

[A]

You. And you were right about that.

[B]

This is, this does not happen every week with white filmmakers.

[A]

Like, it doesn't.

[B]

Unless it's ip.

[A]

Right. It doesn't, it doesn't happen every, every week with, with white filmmakers. And you, you explained to me the reasons why it happened. And I, and I, I accept those. But what I'm trying to say is that the ability for, for Coogler to even get to the point to where he could say, I want $90 million to make this specific cultural film that I want to make that's set to.

[C]

And I want the, and, and the rights.

[A]

Yeah. He had to make billions of dollars at the box office.

[C]

You're right.

[A]

Billions of dollars.

[B]

We are completely lining up.

[A]

And then even after his movie opened, they still counted as money. And so when I say, all right, well, maybe that should also exist for the guy who made, who is my favorite filmmaker who made the Master. Like, maybe that's it, people. Ah, shut up. I'm like, I'm really just saying, does anybody see what's happening? Like, does anyone see what's going on?

[C]

You know, the, the whole center's box office, like, discourse, like, was a nightmare and.

[A]

But the whole town shot it down, if I'm being honest. Like, there were a bunch of people came out that were whites like your sisters, that were like, why are we talking about it? Right.

[C]

Thank you so much.

[B]

It was one of the most bad faith planted arguments to the trades. It was coming in almost entirely from the trades. And it was either competing executives who were trying to avoid what Coogler was able to get, or executives at Warner Brothers who were like, let's make sure that this guy doesn't get too comfortable with what we gave him in this scenario.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

We can speculate in either direction. That was, that conversation sucked and was stupid. And also we've seen every Ryan Coogler movie. He makes crowd pleasing movies that people want to go see. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But it's also that I think those same bad faith people are also the bad faith people being like, well, this didn't make enough money and this is a fail. You know, they're the bean counters. And I just, you know, I don't want you to be a bean counter.

[A]

I'm not a bean counter. The movies that I loved coming up, I was able to make a movie with Boazhakin Fresh, Mi Vita Loca. Like the films that really in the 90s that, I mean, there were some, obviously there were some big ones too.

[B]

I.

[A]

These films weren't what was the one with. You guys will remember it. I love this movie. I can't remember the name of. Was it the Dreamers with Michael Pitt?

[B]

Oh, yeah, the Bernardo Bertolucci movie.

[A]

Those are the joints that I used to sit and see in Lane Theater.

[B]

David Green. Hello.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Talk about prosthetics.

[C]

No, those are real. We can talk about the differences.

[A]

Those are the movies that would. That deepened my love for film. Punch drunk love.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Like, those are the films that. So I'm So box office is not concerned with how I view a movie outside of the Marvel films, which are amusement park rides. And there's so much money spent on them that they need to make.

[B]

Let me ask you a question.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This idea that you're presenting and that you're the watcher on the wall for this, you know, it's like, keep the same energy for both movies for when it's one situation versus another. Are you talking to. Do you feel that you are talking to movie studio executives? Do you feel that you are talking to fans on social media? Do you feel you are talking to white critics and film bros? Like, who do you. Who are you communicating this to? Cause that's the thing that I always.

[A]

Want to talk about.

[C]

Speaking to Sean and Amanda. That's valuable.

[B]

You could just call me.

[C]

You're right here.

[A]

I know that's a really good question. And the answer is kind of everyone.

[C]

Okay, okay.

[A]

I'm speaking to everyone for different reasons. I'm trying to call attention to the fact that there is a couple of different standards. And your movie that you think is the greatest movie objectively, like, I show the master to people, and I've told them that this is one of the best films, maybe the best film of the decade. And they've gotten an hour into it, and it'd be like, yo, this dude is drinking Lysol. What the fuck are you talking about? What is this? And your movie that you think is the greatest movie, there is someone who doesn't get it. And other films.

[C]

I know.

[A]

So the criteria of who should be rewarded and then not expected to be financially viable, even that is totally subjective, right? So your genius is somebody else's. Hey, I don't get it. And somebody else's. Hey, I don't get it. Is a genius to someone. So there is no but, Van. It's pta. I agree with you, but I'm trying to tell you that if we're talking in the sense of just dollars, then that's not really a criteria, right? There. I would love to see him get as much money. But also, I am just having a conversation and letting people know that, like, there are people who I think are really, really deserving of being able to tell their stories in grand, amazing ways. And no one fucking cares about them.

[C]

Yeah, because there's not a proven path to them making money. Because you have to come with the marketing deck. You have to come with sales numbers.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? No one fucking cares about them. And part of me ruffling feathers is just to have that conversation.

[C]

You're right.

[A]

Now talk to Sean. Talk to Jack Sanders. Jack was a warrior. Jack went to war. Talk to everyone. I get it. I get it.

[C]

You never come to me.

[A]

Well, we talk about different things, though.

[C]

Oh, that's true.

[A]

Yeah, we talk about different things. I get it.

[B]

But also, Amanda finishes recording and she books out of the office. She's like, I am not staying here. I stay in the office.

[A]

She's the Rachel Lindsay of the big picture. She's gone. But I totally accepted everybody's pushback in good faith and in bad faith. I get it. And I will say this. In the grand scheme of things, is it amazing, amazing for someone to get that much money to tell their movie and then not have to be worried about it being four quadrant or any of those things? Yes, it is. You guys are right. My question to you is, who's next?

[C]

Agree.

[A]

And that's it. Because I care about the next person that gets a chance to do that, and I care that there are other stories that are like that, and I care that that next person is me. Just don't know.

[B]

Yeah. You know who I've been thinking about a lot is, and I have not seen her next two movies is Nia Dacosta. So Nia Dacosta made a small independent feature with Tessa Thompson, and then she leapt from that movie to a reboot of Candyman, and then she made the Marvels. And Candyman and the Marvels both underperformed. The Marvels in particular had a really, really bad box office performance. She got a raw deal, and there was a lot of discussion about who was responsible for that. Was it Marvel's mismanagement of the project? Did that movie get chopped up or taken away from her? Already working inside the Marvel system, Kevin Feige, very much the author of a lot of those stories, if not all of them also.

[C]

I mean, that movie is about three young women, and the audience has, like, a certain bias, and it wasn't as.

[A]

Bad as what they said it Was.

[B]

It was not compared to what everything else that was happening at that time out of Marvel. It was like. It was kind of on par with what a lot of those movies are. Anyhow, her next two movies now are. She has a reimagining of Hedda. Hedda Gobbler with Tessa Thompson that Amazon is putting out next month, or this month, actually, it's October. And then she has the sequel to 28 Years later, which is coming out in January, the Bone Temple.

[A]

Bone Temple.

[B]

And I'm really interested to see what happens with her career because there really has not been a black female filmmaker who has been consistently working both in independent cinema, making, you know, character studies and franchise films. She's. This will be her third franchise film. And to me, what she is allowed to do in the future, I think is kind of meaningful to what you're describing here, because she made the Marvels and then got a shot at 28 years later. Like, she obviously pitched that pit, pitched her vision of that movie as a follow up to a Danny Boyle movie written by Alex Garland. And she got that job. She earned that job. That would not have happened probably 20 years ago. And I'm not saying the things are good, but they're certainly different. They're evolving. Yeah, they're evolving.

[A]

Yeah. No, no, I'm not gonna look, you guys, I get it. I look around right now and one of the reasons why it's such a great time to tell stories is because there is so much talent out there. There are so many different mediums, so many different ways, so many different avenues. If you decided that you didn't give a fuck about anything, you could take all the money from the crypto bros or whatever, and you go out there, they all wanna be producers. They all, like. So there's all kind. But I guess my thing is the power of story. You know, What I think people are really talking about is what they feel is inspired. When you watch There Will Be Blood, there is a point in the movie, even for me, I think it was like 27 or 28 when it came out that I was looking at the film and going, like, why am I looking at this? Like, what? Okay, let me pull back a little bit. For filmmakers for, like, myself, people that watch movies like myself, an important story is because the message is important. Because, like, not necessarily because the theme is important. The message means looking at how these people are living or look what happens to these people or look at this. And that's what makes an important story. So you sit down and you get A good movie with great performances and you get just hit over the head with this is how the world should change. You don't get that from some of these other films. You get deep exploration of the human condition. Right. But you don't come away thinking, right now I have to boycott this or stop doing this or read this or do this.

[B]

But I would much rather the latter than the former.

[A]

But what I'm telling you is that it for me, what I'm saying is there are all types of filmmakers whose stories are important for all types of reasons. Sure. Like there are people that are like struggling and just like dying for you to know just about how this 13 year old kid in Pakistan lives. And it's the most important thing to them, either one of those. I think sometimes one part of that from black people, particularly our stories have to be societally important. Like they have to be about the condition of race or whatever. And if you tell good movies like that, race or oppression, if you tell good movies like that, then people sometimes reward you with rewards and stuff like that. But the deep exploration of a Thursday in Los Angeles, that went bad. A lot of times we don't get rewarded for telling those stories. And because people don't glom onto those parts of our lives.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I'm saying a lot to say this. I just want equality. Ingenious.

[C]

I think I agree.

[A]

And this has nothing to do with pta. This has nothing to do with Scorsese. This has nothing to do with.

[B]

You want them to give the money back.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

You want them?

[A]

I don't want them.

[B]

In fact, these movies should be deleted. You said.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't. I like.

[B]

And you think they're frauds.

[A]

I like the fact that they don't have to worry. If anybody. Yo. If you ever been on an independent film set, if you've ever been on a film set where people don't have a lot of money, man, it could be fraught. It could be. You could see a DP sweating bullets like, guys, please.

[B]

You do know that both of those filmmakers though, that their words are in that. Yes, they are from that experience.

[A]

They are from that. And over the course of their career, they have been rewarded for their excellence and genius, but also for the fact that people understand the movies that they make. And that is also a part of the reason why we're seeing them being rewarded with the budgets. I'm just saying there's a whole part of filmmaking, maybe I can say it Best this way that people don't understand as well, because there aren't people that appreciate those types of films or those types of filmmakers that are bean counters and decision makers and everywhere else. So the only saving grace that they have is that their movies turn a profit, that they make some sort of money, or that they're about enough pain that people feel like they have to tell their friends to watch them. And so for me, I don't always want to tell the story of some abused person, and I don't always want to tell the story of sometimes I just want the quirkiness of other people to result in $170 million budget.

[C]

There's a really good Kelly Reichert quote in the a 24 piece in the New Yorker. Kelly Reichert, one of the great American filmmakers and someone who makes small movies and makes quirky stuff.

[B]

And I love that Nobody's giving her 170 anytime soon.

[C]

And she made several movies with a 24. And then she says, quite honestly, that a 24, as they have expanded their ambitions, the movies that she wants to make are no longer right. And what she says is like, I feel lucky that I got two or three films with a 24. She was like, I'm happy that they were in the mix for a while and now they're not anymore. But it was like pretty crushing little anecdote in, you know, what is a celebratory piece about a 24.

[B]

We're making an episode about the Smashing Machine, which is part of the elevation of a 24. This is a 60, $70 million movie about a MMA fighter.

[C]

So, you know, that to me is just kind of like biz. You know, the industry, like, business sucks. Business crushes and like all genius and art and. And allied people and boo corporations.

[B]

I can't boo the corporations because you need the corporations to pay for the art. You need the corporations to be the.

[C]

The.

[B]

The medicis for the filmmakers. But that is true since the beginning of the art form.

[C]

It just. That anecdote also illustrates. It's like they are the dimicis. It is. I mean, it is both business, but it is like who is going to decide to be a patron for this amount of time? And. And Van's point is correct of like, when who decides to be a patron and what they decide that they want to patronize is. I mean, sponsor, you know, is like, tends to be certain kind of guys. Of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People who you're more comfortable spending time with socially or that you understand better or that you idolize. Or that you see yourself standing and.

[C]

Certain types of stories.

[A]

And that's not to say.

[B]

But that's not what one battle after another is.

[C]

Well, all right, go. Let's do it.

[A]

Okay. So I'm going to be totally honest. I saw one battle after another, and I. You can't not like it. It's really good. Yeah. Two things. One, I don't. I legitimately. And I. You guys, it's okay. But the criticism. I legitimately don't understand the gas. Like, honestly, Honestly don't understand the gas.

[C]

Okay, but you mean that, like. You don't mean, like, literally the Sean Penn gas?

[A]

Nah. You mean, like.

[C]

Yeah, Okay. I was like, am I going to need to explain?

[A]

Like, that's different.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Like, the. Sean Penn's character is written to rule the movie, and he does rule the movie.

[C]

It's so funny. Jomi was in here and was talking about that, and I. I was saying, like, I basically don't think of that character when I think about the movie. And what. Like. I mean, like, it's obviously integral to what's going on in the movie, and the performance is, like, alarming. And. But when. When I am thinking what sticks with me, it's like, Sean Penn is not in the frame.

[A]

Sean. Sean Penn. And this is why this movie is such a fantastic piece of art.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sean Penn's character in the movie, to me, is the only character that actually has a want. Every. Like, everybody else is responding to his want, to his thing, and that. And his want is. So it becomes.

[B]

I mean, that's not true. Chase Infinity's character has a want.

[C]

Doesn't know what her want is, but, like, that's part of the thing that she's trying to figure out.

[A]

So Chase Infinity's character really doesn't have a want. She's placed in peril, and she's reactionary to everything that she's placed into.

[B]

I mean, when we meet her, we meet a young girl who's trying to find her own way, who's trying to find independence from her father, this weird, sheltered life that's been explored for her. She's trying to build a life of her own. And the reason that we care that she's in peril is because we've seen that.

[A]

For me, I'll just talk about something. The reason why I care that she was imperiled is because she was imperiled. Really. The reason why I care that she was imperiled is because she was an innocent. And I think characters like that are always interesting because they didn't sign up for. It's the classic kid thing. I didn't ask to be here, so how can you have these rules for me? You're inflicting your rules based upon your life on me, and I didn't ask for none of this.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

And so with the things that are happening, the things that are happening to her are happening to her because of mistakes and situations that other people have made and put her in. And so watching her climb out of those mistakes and situations is very satisfactory, is very satisfying, should I say. But the person that is saying, I have to get her. I have to do this. Even that, like, starts our narrative with the want of perfidia. The person that spins all of this into a story is Lockjaw. That's why, to me, Lockjaw is the meatiest character in the thing, because. And that's why his death, the first death, particularly the second death, is not needed. But the first.

[C]

Oh, he didn't like the T2 homage.

[A]

Nah. The first death. The reason why is. It was so. It was so perfect, was because it was so unceremonious. It was just, hey, guess what? It's the way things work in life. You fucked with the wrong people. No one even. Boom. Head blown off. I was like, wow, to take him out like that. You wanted all these baked. You wanted to be a part of the Christmas Motherfuckers and you wanted to do all of this stuff. Boom. You did the wrong thing. Head blown off.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So, I mean, not necessarily. I'm looking at the film and I'm thinking the film is. It's was hysterical. It was so much funnier. I thought it was going to be. The performances are all fantastic, all of that, but, like. Like, best movie that we've seen in a long. I just didn't. I didn't see that or feel that in any sort of way.

[C]

That's.

[A]

And do you.

[B]

Do you feel that perhaps you are not emotionally and intellectually incentivized to withhold a little bit based on your presentation about your ideas before you saw the movie?

[A]

Perhaps. Which is why I'm going to see it again.

[C]

Oh, that's exciting.

[A]

Perhaps. Which is why I'm going to see it again.

[B]

Which is not to say I don't trust you, but in the same way that I am not trusted when it comes to a PTA movie because I'm so far in the bag, I have become the bag.

[A]

Well, this is your Marvel. And so, by the way, can I tell you guys something?

[C]

Uh.

[A]

Oh. About here we Go.

[B]

Marvel's back.

[A]

Let's just have a. Let's have a conversation about this. There is nothing wrong with being irrationally connected to something that you really care about.

[B]

Of course, I agree with that.

[A]

Everybody that's kicking my ass, I like this. That's what y' all don't understand about me. Everybody that's going like, everybody that's doing this, I like this because this shows me an intense connection to moving cinema and media. And this is what has to happen for movies to get made and people to get their shot. You have to fucking care. So I enjoy it. But I also understand that a lot of films are looked at in two different ways. And this happens in rap a lot too. You know this. If your reputation precedes you to the point where he used to write, him and his.

[C]

I grew up in Atlanta. What is this?

[A]

That's what I'm talking about.

[C]

Gucci.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There we go.

[A]

It's like the better people think you are, the more they allow you to fail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And not that this movie is in any way a failure, except for one way.

[B]

Kingdom Come happened. And we were like, we'll move on. We'll get to 444.

[A]

Yeah, it's Jay. You know, he can do it. So even if it. There's one way that this movie fails, ok. And we talked about it on Midnight Boys. This movie fails black women. Mm.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I knew. I. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

[A]

And man, there's a. Because. And this is the nut kick. There are black women in this movie and they are some of the most talented, amazing performers that we have. Teyana Taylor, Regina hall, you do not want to. They will not endeavor into anything that they didn't think is nourishing. So I'm really interested to see how they are going to respond to some of the criticism of the movie. I'm not gonna say anything that's original. Brooke Obi, the great Brooke Obie has talked about this. A lot of other people have written about this. This movie basically came out at the same time that Assaj Kaur died. An actual real life black female revolutionary. The portrayal of Perfidia Beverly Hills in this movie, despite being really well portrayed, almost otherworldly by Teyana Taylor. It's an abomination. It's like.

[B]

It is. Yeah, it is because of the actions that the character takes.

[A]

Because of typically. And you know, I was verbose on this about the. On the Midnight Boys about it. But intention is what matters when you're talking about the care of black women. The situation that black women exist, and particularly black women with a certain political thrust that have put their lives on the line for revolution. The way that they've been undermined, exiled and treated in America is intentional. So when there is a portrayal of a black woman, particularly a black woman that exists in the space that Perfidia Beverly Hills exists in, you want to see that same intention in them, that same care in them. And what you really kind of got was someone that was so grotesquely selfish and unaware that everyone that she met was worse off because of it. And it's just an interesting standpoint to watch a white male writer director put a black female character in. Like, it's just an interest. It's an interesting thing. I've seen really compelling arguments on both sides of this, like, hey, true freedom is the ability to be flawed and be redeemed. All of that. I've seen that, and I hold space for that.

[B]

But, like, it's dramatics. It's not documentary.

[A]

I understand. But I also understand that there are tropes that exist. I mean, there might be a dramatic place for blackface to exist in a film like this or some other place. Doesn't mean I want to see it, and that doesn't mean I wanna see it done irresponsibly.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And so I think one way that we can all kind of show that we are in lockstep as filmmaking fans is to accept some of this criticism and understand where it's coming from. And when you see someone like, let's fuck while the bomb goes off, goes in there. She's trying to liberate people. Get your dick up. She has sex with both of the white protagonists, gets pregnant by one, abandons her child because she's Then snitches on the whole thing and leaves and then writes on the wall, this pussy don't pop for you no more. That seems like somebody's fetish fantasy. It just. It seems like somebody's fetish fantasy. I know this is adapted from something and that character is not a black lady in this, but I think that actually makes it worse.

[B]

Do you think it's mitigated at all by the fact that her daughter is the hero of the story?

[A]

No, I don't.

[C]

Do you think it's mitigated at all by.

[B]

To me, I think that the presentation of those ideas, which I went on Wesley Morris's pod, which I think goes up later this week, and we talked about this a little bit on his show, too.

[A]

Oh, Wesley.

[B]

I anticipated. Yeah. And it's very. Understandable I mean, this is a very raw portrayal. If people get into your mentions about like, this is like woke revolutionary propaganda or whatever. I'm like, if you look at how perfidia is characterized, this is not a celebration of someone who's pursuing that lifestyle at all. In fact, it's like a. It's a very harsh portrayal. And you can say insensitive or wrong.

[A]

Well, insensitive. Not only that, but like, also it. It. She. Leonardo DiCaprio is holding her child and she spits to him a bunch of bullshit about the revolution when really she.

[B]

Doesn'T see it that way.

[C]

Okay, this is what I wanted to ask you. I mean, his question, is it mitigated by her daughter, a young black woman, being the hero? But is it mitigated by. It's an incredibly selfish character. And also a character that does everything or a movie that has the character do everything that, that you just said, which is, you know, a stereotype, like a stereotype fetishization. It's. It's very hard on this little summary all in one. I do think that both the filmmaking and the performance at least explores or tries to signal it, like why that's happening and, and why. Or ask the question of why is this person so selfish and why is this person doing these things? And does the exploration, maybe, and maybe that doesn't. But that scene that you were talking about in particular, he's holding her baby and she has just gone through a montage I like, keep thinking about, which is. Some people have called it postpartum depression, but, like, I don't. I. We don't even need to add that name to it. It's just the really disorienting feeling of having given birth to another human. And what does that mean to you? And what does that mean for the other person? And what does that make you? How. What is your concept of yourself, like, as a mother? What is the concept of like, being a mother? Is that different from being a person? And then, you know, I. This scene when she's with Lockjaw and it. His, like his boner starts first and then she's like, I see that I have some sort of power, but, like, what is. To me, Tiana Taylor's performance explores, like, the feelings and the experiences of those stereotypes in a way. And maybe it doesn't for you, and maybe it doesn't communicate. And if it. But if it did, would that mitigate it? Or is it.

[A]

So her irresponsibility starts before she gives birth? Like, they're sitting down and she's drinking and stuff. And he goes, it's like she doesn't even know that she's pregnant. Yeah, everybody talks about how hapless Bob is, but he wasn't hapless. When he knew that he was going to become a father, it changed everything for him.

[C]

Also, can I just like, as you know, that's also an example of a white man policing like, you know, what someone wants to do. And my experience of pregnancy was like a bunch of people telling me what I can't do and can or can't do with my body in ways that by the way, is still happening like all the time. And you know, so I'm sorry for.

[B]

All those comments I made to you.

[C]

Sure, thank you.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[C]

But like, you know, so even that, I guess like he's being responsible, but also it's like she can do whatever she wants.

[B]

This is me from a very privileged perch communicating this. But when I was watching the movie, and I've seen the movie four times now, to me that character is an expression of the necessary self preservation and coercion that happens when you are a black woman pursuing these ideas in the world. And that there is a, a way that you are fetishized, that you are made into an icon of a certain type and that there are a lot of men and a lot of lockjaws in the world that put you in positions of, I don't know about helplessness, but surrender because of their power. And also that the entire movie is about one generation's version of revolution and another generation's version of revolution and commentary on that and the impossibility because of the ruthlessness of our system. I think in some ways to pursue violent revolution, which is what perfidia represents. She represents a no holds barred pursuit, A, an explosive, aggressive criminal pursuit, not a nonviolent pursuit. And the tension there, I don't, I, I don't know that. I don't think it's judging her. If you want to say she does terrible things.

[A]

Oh, it doesn't judge her at all. It doesn't. The movie doesn't judge her at all. The movie, as a matter of fact, doesn't actually investigate almost anything about her. I guess my thing is like I know those black lady revolutionaries. Not the ones that are. And they, they mamas.

[C]

And they, they're not selfish, they're not crumbly.

[A]

Well, they are. Hold on. They are the opposite of selfish, their politic. And I'm not saying that this means that perfidious has to be their politic. For the entire world and society comes from the way that they feel like their children should be accepted and reared in it. So.

[B]

But Perfidia exists in that lineage. We see her grandmother talking to Bob, saying, my daughter, my granddaughter comes from a long line of revolutionaries. I think the thing that I'm trying to point out here is Perfidia is one character.

[A]

But those women. The movie isn't about those women. The movie is about her.

[B]

No, it's not about her. She is in the prologue.

[A]

I know, but when I say it's about her, I mean they're in it in the background, the character, like every other. So Regina Hall's character, every black woman that shows care in the movie is punished for it. I don't know if that's accidental, but it happened.

[B]

I think it's on purpose.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So the most vulnerable class in our society. That's the whole point of the movie.

[A]

Yeah, but at the same time, Perfidia is one of the people in the movie that punished other black women. All of this stuff is happening to them because of her.

[B]

So, oh, no, she took actions, and.

[A]

She exists inside of a system that, worse, she snitched. She snitched, got Jungle pussy killed. She destroyed her own revolution, sent everybody running for the hills. She abandoned her daughter. And then when Regina hall comes back into the movie to save her daughter and brings her to the nuns, she brings Lockjaw's rage with her and destroys all of those lives.

[C]

And every single one of the nuns is handcuffed. There is that shot of them looking at.

[A]

Every single one of them is gone. I'm not saying that this was all done in intentional messaging from the writer, director, from pta, but what I'm saying is that oftentimes that character might mean more to me than it does to other people. The portrayal of that character might mean more to me. I might feel a little bit more inclined to be like, what are we trying to say here? Right? And somebody else might be sitting at their desk going, I'm gonna write a cool, sexy, badass black chick. I'm gonna write. I'm gonna do all of this stuff. It does strike to me that, like, when it strikes me, should I say that when Quentin Tarantino decided that he was going to, like, orient his movie around a black woman, he treat somebody who has a fraught relationship with race. He treated her with so much care. Like. And that might have been his respect for Pam Grier. That might have been what that was about. But it seemed like at least there was an understanding That a middle aged black female needs for someone to be able to zoom out and look at the entirety of what that means and what. And the decisions she would have to make and the movie. Almost like in that film, she almost floats around on clouds and watches the chaos around her and has the wherewithal and the gumption to be able to navigate it. It's a very empowering performance.

[B]

I mean, you're describing a movie. You're describing the hero of a movie. Perfidia is not the hero of this movie.

[A]

She's the villain. And so she's not.

[B]

She's not.

[A]

Well, she's one of the villains of the film. How could she not be?

[B]

She does terrible things. But that doesn't make you a villain in a movie. Lockjaw is the villain. Lockjaw is the agent of the system that puts Perfidia in this situation in the first place.

[A]

He is the agent of the system and.

[C]

But he is also literally the person who impregnates her, which is, you know.

[B]

There'S a like a load bearing metaphor there. Quite literally a load.

[A]

What I'm saying is all of these things are choices that she's made where she centers herself and no one else.

[C]

You're right.

[A]

And that is the opposite of what black female activists and revolutionaries, you're all students. Yes. They prioritize their communities and their families. They take on family, they take everybody becomes their family to a point that they live lives in imperiled lives for decades for their entire life because of their decisions to put other people before them.

[B]

This is a really complex philosophical dynamic that you're describing. What you're talking about is the value of representation. Is it better for the film and better for society that the film depict, if it's going to depict a black female revolutionary, that it do so in what you would describe as true terms and that also feel like moral terms, that for the movie's sake it is better if Perfidia Beverly Hills does not Rat goes into a kind of seclusion or is killed and made a martyr figure and then the story can go from there. Or is this the creation of an artist? Granted, a white male artist, but the creation of an artist and that the story and what the movie is ultimately driving towards, which is ultimately about this tension between two generations trying to make change, is that ultimately more important? And do you want to empower the artist? Because you premised a lot of this conversation on people being able to express themselves and say the things that they want to say that are valuable to them and Whether it be a $2 million or $170 million. So you get into an area where you are effectively policing characterization by saying, this is not okay that this person in this film does these things, because this is not what the movement is about. I would always quibble with that. That is in the territory of, like, borderline censorship that I'm ultimately not comfortable with. But I am also a white guy hosting a movie podcast in my 40s. I'm aware of what it means to say that and that it's easier for me to say he should be able to do whatever he wants. But it is very, very complicated once you start saying, this was the worst part of the movie because I didn't like what it showed about something that I feel is not true in society.

[A]

Only for black people does truth equate to censorship. And the reason why I say that is because what we've begged is for an accurate representation of us for a long time. And sometimes what comes back is, these are the stories. If you want to be in them, we should be able to tell them the way we see them. And we're saying, okay, that's not us. And not only is that not us, but this is. It's so not us that it plays into tropes that have been used to minimize us. Can we talk about it? Like, can we discuss the fact. And we are discussing it, just to be real with you.

[B]

I'm very happy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we are discussing it. And I'll. You know, company man. I don't have this. People say what the fuck they want about this place. But we've been discussing it, like, on podcast in the fucking room.

[C]

You're right.

[A]

We've been talking about it, and nobody has gotten. Maybe Jack got pissed off a little bit. No, like, nobody has gotten mad. Nobody has stormed out. Nobody has not had the conversation.

[B]

Super important.

[A]

Nobody has not had the conversation. We've been doing that. But what I'm saying is that no one wants to see PTA or anybody else have to write to what they feel the best intentions of a character are, because that makes for boring movies.

[B]

That's ultimately what I'm getting at.

[A]

True. But after generations, we do just start to ask why. And by the way, these are not just conversations that we have about Paul Thomas Anderson's movies. We have them about Tyler Perry's movies. And God damn it, if we go have them about Tyler Perry's movies or about hip hop or about any of this stuff. If we're going to have these conversations intra communally Then we certainly don't have them. When we see movies that are about to win 10 Oscars and all of that stuff and about the portrayal of black women in them, we have to have them, and they're uncomfortable to have. When Wood Harris is in. Do you know how fucking excited I get to see.

[B]

We all would have liked more Wood Harris. Yes, we all would have liked more Wood Harris.

[A]

I get to see Wood Harris in the movie. Wood Harris should be not just in this movie. Wood Harris should be in every movie. Guess what? He's earned it. He's earned it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Teyana Taylor has earned it.

[B]

My wife was like, what happened to Avon when you're like 40 minutes into the movie?

[A]

Yeah, like, he's earned it. These performers have earned it. And it's so fucking awesome to see them up there with these other people that are minted in the town.

[B]

Part of the reason why I think I'm pushing back on this a little bit, setting aside my fanboys status.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This movie goes to great lengths to portray Deandra. This movie goes to. This movie shows us. Mother Superior at the Sisters of the Brave Beaver. You know, this movie does make chase infinity. Ultimately, the person who fires the gun and saves the day. Like, it's not. To me, it is not an insensitive portrayal, but it is a portrayal with a lot of nuance and friction. And like, the perfidia character, just like the character in the film is a confrontation to the audience, it is a question of if this person existed, what would happen in the world. And that is something that art, in my opinion, should and can do. So you might. What you're saying is 100% valid. That after generations of portrayals like this, just saying, like, why is it like this? This doesn't feel right. I respect it, but I'm very uncomfortable with specifically saying we can't do this.

[A]

Well, it's. I don't think anybody is saying that you can't. Obviously you can. I think we're exploring the why more than anything.

[C]

And also that it doesn't land, you know, and like, we talked about that. Even walking out, the decision to make perfidia, the rat, you know, which is like. Is from the book, but is just like a very fraught. And you walk out, and even you and I, like, we're questioning the decision. And what does that mean? And what are you representing with that? And it's. And did you need to do it? I don't know. Like that to me, you know, I guess I have, like, editor brain. I'm Just like, well, what if we just tweaked this? And maybe everyone would be like a laugh and not a lot happier. That sounds reductive, but maybe it would all add up. I think it's conscious, and I think it is meaning to provoke us 100%, in my opinion.

[B]

I don't think.

[C]

But I also completely understand if it doesn't land.

[B]

But part of why it's good, I think, is because it generated this conversation.

[A]

Yeah, of course. I mean, look, two things. One, when black women roll their eyes, I'm a be. I'm just. I'm just being honest with you. Like, cultural differences. When black women roll their eyes, my innate response is, what's wrong? Yeah, it doesn't matter where we at. We in a restaurant, eye roll. What's wrong? Like we in a movie, in a show, eye roll. When black women roll their eyes. What's wrong? What's up? Tell me what's up. Because we gotta have this conversation, and there's some eye rolling that's going on right now. And I understand why the eye rolling is going on. There's a last thing that gets said there a lot of times could be 150 performances that are sometimes pandering with the heroism of certain characters. Sometimes you write them as if they are Mother Superior or whatever. Like that. Sometimes. But when it's something like this that people love so much, we always ask, why do you love that depiction? Like, when it's something like this, and everyone goes, this is the greatest thing ever, the most amazing thing ever. It's. Why is it that depiction that you love after Denzel Washington has won, has been nominated for Malcolm X? He. This is not a criticism of Denzel. He has won his Oscar for playing a slave and then a dirty cop.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

We always go, well, why is it that after Halle Berry has been in the town for so long making great movies, she got. Let me be respectful. But you guys have seen Monster's Ball. We always go, that's what y' all like. Like, okay, all right. Now, if. If. If we make the movie, then obviously the characters are more nuanced. Right? But not all time. But. But we always go, that's what you like, huh? That's what you will reward. That's like, that's what is the greatest thing. And the question just, why like it?

[B]

And I'm not saying any of these things are solved because they're not solved. Things have been. I would describe Hollywood in. In this particular aspect as very different. In the last 10 years, there's a There's, to me, there's a demarcation point between 12 Years a Slave to now where that felt to me like kind of the last time when that framework of storytelling. Well, that. But that's.

[C]

That's a reaction.

[B]

Yeah, that's a. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And well, by the way, but the.

[B]

Character, but the character in Green Book is not the kind of character that you're describing. Mahershala's win there, that's. That's an elegant artist that is portrayed on screen.

[A]

And listen to me, man. Like you can't. Because some of this stuff gets into. Then we're policing what kind of roles we should be taking and what kind of stuff. And that is.

[B]

He also did win from for moonlight.

[A]

As well, which is coming from Barry's mind, which, when you look at the movies that he has made or that Ava has made, or that I could go down and down and down, up and up and up and up and up and all of that stuff, you see these three dimensional characters who exist. If you were to take Mahershala Ali's character in Moonlight, I'mma be real with you. Those were the drug dealers that I knew. Just Juan, like, those were the guys that I knew. I didn't know the guys that were like, hey man, fuck everybody. Kill them all doing this. I'm sure those guys were around. The guys that I knew would feel a little bit of shame when looked at their grandmother the wrong way. They were uncomfortable in church. They were awed when people were talking about right and wrong. They knew they were doing wrong. And they also sometimes went overboard to protect you and to put you in a feeling of safety and to do things for you so you would look the other way while they were doing shit that they knew they had no business doing, but that the choice matrix that they were presented with made them do. And so I just never. You just got to a point where, where when you saw that character, you were just like, Jesus Christ. Like, thank you, Barry. Like, that's my uncle Mark. Like, that's him. I cannot read his rap sheet and then tell you that he was a good guy. Cause you're not gonna believe me. Like, once I do it, I can't do that. But that's the fucking guy. That's him. And then he dies just in that movie. And they don't even show it. They just come back, Juan Ben did. That's how it happens. And nobody cares except for the four fucking people that relied on him. And then you get into another film and it's like, oh, and it's. Everything that everyone is saying is correct. And, boy, it feels like being a drag at the fucking party. But I'm just saying. Let's just talk it out.

[C]

You're not the drag at the party.

[A]

No, no, no. The only reason why I'm saying that is because it's like, this guy. I've been this guy for so long. It's like, I remember when the Kanye thing happened. Like, people from Best Buy, they were emailing me and they were like, remember that conversation we had in the parking lot outside work when you were going crazy over the Iraq war? I was like, yeah. It's like, glad to see you.

[B]

You made that your career.

[A]

Yeah, my whole fucking career. And so I'm not trying to record Scratch y' all movie. I swear to God I'm not.

[B]

No, it's extreme. It's obviously something that people have been asking us about since we've been raving about it. Most people are raving about this, but this is one of the more unanimous raves. And now, 10 days since release is the time when everybody's gonna be like, are we sure this is good? Let's explore the ways in which maybe it isn't working.

[A]

Okay, two things. The movie is good, but there is just. Overall, the overall quality of the film. There is like. I feel like there is a gas to it that I don't understand. But that's besides the point, because we could talk. I ranked my PTA movies, and I put the Master above There Will Be Blood. And people were like, are you fucking with me?

[C]

Same.

[A]

So. So.

[C]

But so I did that on the last episode. So I'm right there. And then I put this and Phantom Threat above those. So.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

You put.

[A]

You put this movie above Boogie Nights. Yeah. You're wilding.

[C]

Well, he. I mean, he did, too.

[A]

You're crazy.

[C]

But.

[A]

But honestly, Crazy People's podcast, We're changing the name. Change the lower thirds. The name of this podcast is no longer the big picture. It's the crazy people's podcast.

[C]

But also all of my.

[B]

I'm so glad you're here. This wasn't even planned yesterday. I was, like, convinced.

[C]

Come on.

[A]

I know. But seriously, though. And look, once again, I mean, Joe told me how much she loved Inherent Vice. I told that to somebody in the office.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I'm not gonna say who it was. And they threw their shit on the ground.

[B]

She hates it.

[C]

I literally said, get out of here when talking about it. Cause I fucking. That's the lowest on my list. But I'm not a stoner. Like, I'm not doing any part of that. And the three PTA movies that I. Well, my top two have women characters in them, you know, so it's like. It's. It's. It's not rocket science. Kind of like what you're responding to. And even when we were talking about Perfidia, I'm talking about the half of the experience that, like, I can relate to with her, you know, so it's. It's not. It's not hard.

[A]

Yeah. So, you know. Oh. And that. And that is what it is. I really enjoyed the movie. The theater had a great time. I think it's something. There's something to be said about a movie that deals in such weighty stuff that you can still have a good time with. And that's kind of like what.

[B]

It's a fun thinker.

[A]

It's a fun thinker. There are other things in the movie that, like, for the record, that was.

[B]

My takeaway from sinners as well, which is. I was like, this movie is loaded with ideas, but it's just a fun time. It's just the in theater experience was very exciting.

[A]

You're having fun. As far as a lot of the pushback that you're seeing, I'll just say it again. A lot of pushbacks that you're seeing from people about some of the characterizations of black women and some of the fates of black women in the movie. I think that there's something. And I just want to say this very cleanly, we want to see black ladies taken care of. And when we see them not being taken care of, we're going to have a conversation. Now, does that always mean that that conversation won't be met with whatever. Whatever? No, but we will have the conversation. And in this film, it seemed like, particularly that character, the overall characterization of revolutionaries, period, Something that's very important to the African American tradition, the black tradition in this country were treated in sort of a haphazard way that some would say doesn't. Not some would say that. I say doesn't do it any justice. I mean, that's the point of the movie. But with something that's gonna be this important culturally, it's just. It's a conversation that has to happen. And that's what art does. That's what art does. We have the conversation, and so that's what art does.

[B]

So the takeaway is that this film is about how the only people who are good at revolution are white men.

[A]

Actually, no one in this movie is good at anything.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

Like, I mean. I mean, just. Just to be honest with you. Oh, you know. You know who's good at stuff?

[B]

I mean, Sensei Sergio is very good. I mean, he saves Bob twice.

[A]

Even him. Even he drinks. He's drinking beer in front of the cops and kind of just. But he is.

[B]

But that's by design.

[A]

But you know who's good at stuff in this movie?

[B]

Who's.

[A]

The Christmas niggas? They like, they're the big winners.

[B]

They did not lose any control.

[A]

They did not lose anything. And once again, it just. Even that.

[B]

Again, that's part of the point with the perfidia character is like, there's nothing she can do to overcome this. Nothing.

[A]

But there is. We have overcome.

[B]

We've overcome the way that power is organized in the United States of America.

[C]

This is not cnn.

[A]

We have overcome.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, I mean, we haven't. I'll just say this in the weekend.

[C]

Move.

[A]

Yeah, we haven't overcome totally, but we start off in this country as beasts, as cattle. We start off in this country as people who were cut off from God, from humanity. Everything that we invented was stolen. Everything that we were was bought and sold. And we've overcome that. We haven't completely reformed and reshaped America into the vision of itself that it said it was. We haven't. But we certainly, through the power of our ancestors and the kinetic energy of our fight and our unity culturally, have overcome a wilderness that wanted to kill us. We have. And so we can overcome, and we will, and we kind of always do. But while we watching these movies on the way to it, and we've overcome because of us, it was us. But we've overcome with help from other people who realized the shit was wrong. And so I'm never cynical. Just so people know me. I'm never cynical about what has been achieved. I'm not gonna act like the fight is over when there's.

[B]

We have a very different point of view about this, the arc of black Americans. What you're describing, of course, is true. What the movie is suggesting about the way that power works in the country. While it is very funny because it's written in a very humorous way, I think it is eerily true.

[A]

You're right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But that doesn't mean. Oh, hold on. Like, winning and overcoming, two different things. Now we ain't one, but we've actually.

[B]

I don't even know what winning would look like.

[A]

Ah. Yeah. It's kind of like I'm not even.

[B]

Sure I think about the world that.

[A]

Way because we're not. Because we're not in winning. Winning for me would be very simple. It would be the power of economic, political and society existing with the people of America and not existing with corporate. But we don't have to get into all that. So, I mean, that's a win that maybe that can't even happen. But as far as overcome, I just.

[B]

Want to sit on my couch, smoke weed and watch the Battle of Algiers.

[A]

That's what the fuck I'm talking about.

[B]

You know, like, that's what I want.

[A]

To be the fuck I'm talking about. But far as all of that overcoming, we might not win, but we've overcome some really things. Some really incredible things. Look, this movie asks a lot of, like, incredible questions, but it is essentially, and that's the last thing I'll say. It's essentially a movie about a father and a daughter. So it's essentially what the movie is about, a father and a daughter. And I think the most interesting thing about the movie is it's not about an actual father and a daughter. It's about the love that you have for someone and how that love exists, no matter what the reality of the situation is.

[B]

That's right. It's me. It's your dad.

[A]

It's me. Best part, it's your dad. And all of the things that you're supposed to be able to draw on to save the people that you love that sometimes you can't because sometimes you don't remember the password. So I praise and revere the movie and at the same time, the movie is some fuck shit. It's a good movie. Not the best movie that's ever been made. It doesn't hold a candle to Parasite or other movies like that. It's not even in the same fucking class. But it's also some fuck shit.

[B]

Okay. I think millions of people will hear this episode and feel seen by your comments. So thank you.

[A]

Millions of people. Listen to the big picture.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Last episode.

[A]

Y' all got it like that. Yeah.

[B]

Last episode had 36 million listeners.

[A]

You lying. I was about to say we gotta. Speaking of overcoming, y' all gotta overcome. Y' all doing good. But I didn't know it was happening.

[B]

No, no. Thank you. You are the man.

[A]

Appreciate you guys.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

All complaints at Van Lathan on Twitter.

[B]

I wanna catch him on cnn. Thanks so much to Van. Thanks to Amanda. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thanks to you for receiving this episode in good faith. We'll see you very soon on the.

[A]

Sam.