Paramount Wins Warner Bros. Now What? Plus: ‘Scream 7,’ Heat 2,’ and ‘Nirvanna the Band the Show the Movie’ With Matt Johnson!

Summary

The Big Picture | The Ringer

Episode: Paramount Wins Warner Bros. Now What? Plus: ‘Scream 7,’ ‘Heat 2,’ and ‘Nirvanna the Band the Show the Movie’ With Matt Johnson!

Date: February 27, 2026
Host: Sean Fennessey
Guests: Chris Ryan, Amanda Dobbins, Adam Naiman, Matt Johnson

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Big Picture unpacks seismic changes in the film business with the completed Paramount-Warner Bros. merger, discusses the state of beloved film franchises ('Scream 7' and 'Heat 2'), and dives into the new comedy ‘Nirvanna the Band the Show the Movie’ with its creator, Matt Johnson. Sean Fennessey is joined by Chris Ryan for industry analysis and franchise talk, Amanda Dobbins and Adam Naiman for a Canadian cinema deep dive, and finally Matt Johnson for an extended creator interview.

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Paramount-Warner Bros. Merger: Fallout and Implications

[Timestamp 02:59 – 07:44]

• Netflix Withdraws: Netflix backs out of its $83 billion bid for Warner Bros., paving the way for a merger with Paramount, led by David Ellison and Skydance.
• Industry Reaction:
  • Sean: “There was no good outcome in this sale.” [04:16]
  • Mergers typically shrink creative opportunities, favor synergies over artistry, and enrich only a few.
  • Sean references the Fox-Disney deal as a cautionary tale: “[The Fox-Disney deal] could be significantly worse.” [05:14]
  • Paramount’s success owes partly to political connections making regulatory approval easier.
• Concerns:
  • Greater debt risk; potential creative stagnation.
  • Uncertainty over how Paramount will run Warner Bros., CNN, HBO, and major news outlets (noting CBS's controversial pivot).
  • “We will likely get less with this merger…” [06:09]
• Netflix's Position:
  • Clearly played “the most successful game of chicken in the history of modern media” [06:42]—losing the WB battle, but possibly winning the overall streaming war.
• Call for Listeners: Support movies you care about, stay tuned to recommended industry podcasts for deeper analysis, and expect more coverage as the merger unfolds.

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Franchise Updates: ‘Heat 2’ and ‘Scream 7’

With Chris Ryan
[07:44 – 50:00]

‘Heat 2’ News & Speculation

[07:44 – 17:13]

• Christian Bale & Leonardo DiCaprio Cast:
  • Sean: “Christian Bale and Leonardo DiCaprio are going to be in Heat 2.” [07:45]
• Excitement for Star Power:
  • “The presence of two top five actors… should alleviate some of your worries.” [08:48] – Chris
  • Discussion on recasting iconic roles, comparing it to ‘Mad Max: Fury Road’ and Star Wars prequels: “Mad Max: Fury Road is goated. Phantom Menace has a complicated legacy.” [11:40] – Sean
• Speculation:
  • Likely casting: Bale as Vincent Hanna (Al Pacino’s original role), Leo as Neil McCauley (De Niro).
  • Chris argues the Chris (Val Kilmer) storyline could be center stage, speculates on casting dilemmas due to aging/transformation.
  • “It’ll be deeply fascinating to see who they land on for Chris.” [12:34]
• Notes on Bale’s Recent Films: A game of naming his last five, with mixed reviews for his recent projects.
• Level of Anticipation:
  • Sean wonders about “engagement”—avoiding set photos, spoilers.
  • Chris: “I don't know how you make Austin Butler look like Val Kilmer after he has been shot… and gone to another country.” [10:40]

‘Scream 7’ Extended Review

[17:13 – 50:00]

The State of the Franchise & Cast Shake-ups

[17:20 – 21:46]

• Both Melissa Barrera and Jenna Ortega absent:
  • “Specifically, Melissa Barrera expressed support for Palestine… and reportedly the production company… she was fired.” [17:36] – Sean
  • Ortega left due to “scheduling conflict with Wednesday” and after the creative team’s departure. [17:50] – Chris
• “From a movie perspective, it’s really unfortunate to lose both of those actors…” [18:24] – Sean

Scream 7 Critique

[21:46 – 50:00]

• Plot Structure:
  • Sidney Prescott (Neve Campbell) in Indiana, running a coffee shop. The past haunts her with a new Ghostface stalking her daughter. Meta references to earlier franchise sequels (Halloween analogies, returning/revived characters).
• Tone & Filmmaking Critique:
  • “Incredibly flat, incredibly self-serious, borderline looked like a TV show.” [24:53] – Chris
  • Sean echoes: “It has no life. And then that translates into a lot of the performances, especially from Neve Campbell, who was giving a very, very stoic, emotionless…turn as Sidney.” [25:53]
• Kills & Set Pieces:
  • Praises to a couple of kill scenes, including a bar tap moment (“As a Ghostface originalist, I like knife work.” [27:11] – Chris), but laments the lack of creative scares and franchise energy.
• Franchise Fatigue:
  • “It’s a reset inside of a reset…functions as Scream 1.” [21:46] – Sean
  • Discussion of diminished stakes, repetition, overreliance on older characters, and uninspired finale twists.
• True Crime & Tech Themes:
  • “The idea of true crime obsession, and what AI and Deepfakes can do to horror movie storytelling.” [34:40] – Sean
  • Both find the exploration undercooked.

Notable Quotes:

• “They're all like, we're meat puppets, man. We're about to get stabbed to death.” [29:09] – Chris
• “This movie will do really well because they're just slapping Neve Campbell right in the center of the poster.” [30:40] – Sean

Conclusion:

• The hosts are long-time Scream fans, but are let down by ‘Scream 7’—noting the loss of surprise, emotional engagement, and creativity.

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Movie Review & Industry Deep-Dive: 'Nirvanna the Band the Show the Movie’

With Amanda Dobbins & Adam Naiman
[50:00 – 1:07:00]

Setting the Stage

• Canadian film directed by Matt Johnson based on the cult web/TV series.
• Amanda’s Reaction: “I had the experience that I haven't had in a long time in theaters where I was laughing… and then random strangers were also laughing.” [52:43]
• Adam explains the context: Toronto’s DIY filmmaking culture, the Rivoli as a comic symbol. “Playing [the Rivoli] means nothing… you would almost have to be trying to not [play there].” [57:06]
• Adam on Canadian film: “The whole idea of local iconography is important to a lot of Toronto filmmakers. Nirvana… doesn’t hide it…” [57:06]

Movie Analysis

• Bromance & Time Travel: Recalls the “deeply personal” and “soulful” aspect beneath the stoner-comedy façade.
• Pop-Culture Layering: 2008 cultural references (notably ‘The Hangover’ gag, Back to the Future time travel logic), true meta-fictional and thematic time-travel.
• On-Your-Feet Comedy: Real locations, street casting, the blend of prewritten and improvisational energy.
• Challenges & Canadian Identity:
  • Adam: “We're recreating Toronto in the image of 2008 and trying to fit into their old clothes… Nirvana is about not making progress and having to escape that progress and disguise it by replicating the camera types and shooting style.” [57:06]

Key Quotes:

• “The stupidity is, like, expertly done. The highest compliment I can pay to this movie is if someone watches and said those guys seem really stupid. I would be like, absolutely.” [59:32] – Adam

• “There’s also something really clever about the time travel quality of the story…2008 is actually not that far away…and that being the inciting incident…I can't remember the last time I laughed so hard in a movie.” [65:50] – Sean

• Scott Pilgrim and ‘Nirvanna’ compared as deep Toronto touchstones.

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Extended Interview: Matt Johnson on ‘Nirvanna the Band the Show the Movie’

[1:08:00 – End]

Why Make the Movie?

• Johnson reflects on "gate closing panic"—the fear that creative freedom is fleeting as bigger opportunities arrive post-BlackBerry: “Maybe this is my last chance to make a movie where I make it only with my friends, only in Toronto, and we do whatever we want.” [83:01]

Accessibility & Archetypes

• Claims movie works best on new audiences: “The movie is twice as effective on people who have no idea what's happened before…You know exactly what this is.” [85:24]
• Matt and Jay as adult-children blinking into adulthood, referencing Pinky & the Brain, Calvin & Hobbes as spiritual models.

Comedy, Culture, and Edgelordiness

• Movie as a response to American “movie as religion”: “We are going to speak in the stories of our culture, and that's never going to change.” [91:23]
• Addresses edgelord past and 'taboo-pushing' in youth: “I'm not judgmental of it whatsoever… there's something really magical about taboos.” [106:00]

Filmmaking Process & Legal Fair Use

• All fair use queries handled pre-shoot with in-depth rationales; never been legally challenged: “It's kind of like going back to high school where you need to create a coherent argument as to why you, as a storyteller, need this and only this.” [110:02]

Working in Canada vs. the U.S.

• “Making a movie on another planet…” [118:48] — Matt on shooting Anthony Bourdain film for A24 in the U.S., without his Canadian team.
• Argues success in studio systems hinges on “forming strong relationships with the cast…they are the movie.” [121:01]

What’s Next?

• Interest in Magic the Gathering movie: “That game taught me to read…now I'm making the magic card movie…that's like my Star Wars.” [128:00]

Last Great Thing Seen:

• Documentary Streetwise (about Seattle street kids): "That's probably the last thing I saw where I was like, oh my gosh, this is unbelievable…we were trying to completely steal the aesthetic from it." [129:57]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “If Michael Mann's got one more bullet in the chamber, it's the Heat one. Right?” [11:54] – Chris Ryan
• “It brings me no joy to say that [Scream 7 is my least favorite] because obviously it's a franchise that I've drawn a lot of enjoyment from.” [24:50] – Chris Ryan
• “I will never be able to do anything like this ever again.” [104:36] – Matt Johnson, on using archival footage for the movie’s time-travel plot.
• “Movie is twice as effective on people who have no idea what's happened before.” [85:24] – Matt Johnson

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Segment Timestamps

01:16 – 02:59: Show intro & episode rundown
02:59 – 07:44: Paramount-Warner Bros. merger analysis
07:44 – 17:13: ‘Heat 2’ update & casting speculation
17:13 – 50:00: ‘Scream 7’ review and franchise analysis
50:00 – 1:07:00: ‘Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie’ analysis (Amanda, Adam, Sean)
1:08:00 – End: Matt Johnson interview — creative philosophy, process, industry experience, what’s next

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a time capsule of both industry upheaval and the enduring comfort of film fandom. The hosts balance sharp industry critique, nostalgia for formative movies, skepticism about mergers, and enthusiasm for bold independent cinema. Matt Johnson’s segment adds a personal, philosophical capstone on the nature of storytelling, nostalgia, risk, and cultural change—making this episode essential listening for anyone invested in the future (and past) of movies.

Transcript

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[Sean Fennessy]

I'm Sean Fennessy and this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about Ghostfaces and Nirvana boys. Today on the show we are joined by multiple guests. Joining me first will be Chris Ryan to break down screen scream 7. Ciara and I have been talking about the Scream movies as friends for more than 20 years, so we had to get together to see how Ghostface is doing in 2026. After that, Amanda and Toronto's very own mean pod guy Adam Naiman will join me to discuss my favorite movie of 2026 so far. It's called Nirvana the Band the show the Movie. It's a madcap, uber Canadian buddy comedy from Matt Johnson and Jay McCarroll who have elevated their web series turned TV show to epic CN Tower level proportions. Later in the show I have a conversation with Matt Johnson himself. Matt is one of the most requested guests in show history in our chat in 2023 about his movie. BlackBerry is one of my favorite interviews I've done on this show. He is an incredible thinker and communicator about movies and his work. We basically picked up where we left off talking about Nirvana, how he and Jay and their team pulled the movie off, how they think about comedy and the future of movies. Go see Matt's movie. Listen to our conversation. But first I will share my reactions to the news that Netflix has backed out of the bidding for Warner Brothers, clearing the path for a merger with Paramount. And then Chris and I will talk about some much more exciting news regarding Michael Mann's Heat 2 right after this.

[State Farm Announcer]

This episode of the Big Picture is presented by State Farm.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know those friends who show up for whatever you're into, the ones who'll debate which superhero universe is better or binge true crime documentaries with you at three in the morning. Those friends are gold.

[State Farm Announcer]

State Farm is like that, helping you figure out the coverage that actually fits. Car, home life, whatever you need, they've got your back. And if you want a hand, a local agent is just a tap away on their award winning app.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there well, it happened. The prospective merger that we have been tracking for years and more specifically in these recent months since it was announced that Warner Brothers accepted an $83 billion bid made by Netflix in December just hit its turning point. Since that moment in December, Paramount has repeatedly claimed they had made the superior offer and would not give up. The pursuit of Warner Brothers, inarguably one of the most legendary movie studios in history and the home of many beloved movies and characters. Paramount's dogged approach to the sale, its clear connections to the Trump administration, which could help clear regulatory hurdles for a merger, and David Ellison's long rumored desire to build a mega studio have brought us to this moment. The might of his father's wealth has prevailed and and the thing that everyone I know who knows things said would transpire just did. It appears all but certain that Paramount Skydance's bid of $31 per share will be consummated by Warner Bros. After Netflix Co CEOs Greg Peters and Ted Sarandos announced that it would back out of the negotiations because it was, quote, no longer financially attractive and that it was, quote, always a nice to have at the right price, not a must have at any price. Netflix's stock price has been falling steadily since the announcement in December. Sarandos was recently grilled by Congress. Public outcry from film fans and regulatory watchdogs has gotten noisier. This isn't shocking, but we'll never know if Sarandos would have been true to his word about maintaining windows and supporting the theatrical experience. I will eagerly wait to see if the company's posture toward distributing their own films theatrically changes, given all the valuable knowledge he learned about movie going during the process of pursuing Warner Bros. Now that it's settled, there are several ways to look at this and it won't be the last time we address it on the show, but I want to get this off my chest right now. There was no good outcome in this sale. The history of Hollywood studio mergers and acquisitions is littered with creative roadkill. These Deals often shrink the number of people who get to work in the movie business. They tend to favor corporate synergies over creative risk taking, and they usually take place to enrich a very small number of people. Look at the Fox Disney deal from seven years ago and ask yourself if that helps movies in any way. This one could be significantly worse. Warner Bros. Doesn't need to be sold. It's a great business with enough viable properties to sustain another century of film, TV and any other forms of media we might come up with as a society over that period of time. But the people who bought the company in 2022 bought it to sell it. And now it's being sold to an emerging media titan who will combine it with a studio with almost as much legacy as Warner's. We don't know what Ellison's Paramount will be as a movie studio, as a news operation. CBS in particular has come under dramatic public scrutiny for its pivot rightward and in the direction of President Trump. He'll now have CNN and HBO under that same watchful eye. And don't forget about TikTok on April 6, 2006, almost 20 years ago, David Ellison started Skydance Productions, the company behind big picture favorites like Top Gun, Maverick and True Grit, and also lots of forgettable big budget streaming action duds like Heart of Stone and the Atom Project. That's the movie business. Sometimes you're a genius. Sometimes your taste leads you to the bottom of the barrel. Skydance's track record as a tastemaker is iffy at best, but they do specialize in theatrical spectacle no matter how power mount Warner Brothers actual movies turn out. One thing is for certain, American movies will be different by completing this transaction at this price. It's not hard to see a world in which Paramount is overleveraged by debt or enthralled to other corporate interests participating in the deal that could have any number of unfortunate and ugly outcomes. People will lose their jobs in an already shrinking marketplace for American studio movies. We will likely get less with this merger and the sensational run that Warner Bros. Films has been under, with Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdy running the show will likely be halted by this changing of ownership. Or maybe not. We just don't know what Paramount will do when it takes over. It's reasonable to be skeptical, though. I personally don't know anyone here in LA who is excited about this news, though it has loomed over every conversation I've had with people who work in and around the movie world since it became clear the WBD would be sold. So where to go from here? As always, keep supporting the movies you love and hope that's enough. Netflix may have just played the most successful game of chicken in the history of modern media. It lost the battle for Warner Bros. But almost certainly won the long term fight for primacy in streaming and entertainment amongst studios. Was it all a clever game or just a win win outcome for Netflix? It doesn't really matter. They're fine. Paramount has a lot of work to do though, and there's a lot more to learn about this deal. So I recommend you listen to Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald on the Watch to hear about the impact on TV and especially hbo. Listen to Matt Bellany on the town to hear a deeper reading on the machinations of the deal and its ramifications in the business community. Listen to Brian Curtis on the press box to hear how it will rattle an already fragile journalism industry on the big picture. We will keep fighting for good movies. Okay, let's bring in Chris to talk about some lighter and brighter Heat two news. Okay, CR We've more or less had it confirmed for us that Christian Bale is officially joining the cast of.

[Chris Ryan]

Christian Bale confirmed it for us.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Yeah, so Christian Bale and Leonardo DiCaprio are going to be in Heat too.

[Chris Ryan]

This is now replaced Odyssey R. It's. It's replaced the Odyssey updates as Heat 2. Watch. What's a cool name for this?

[Sean Fennessy]

Um, how about Skillet Time?

[Chris Ryan]

Because of the Heat? Yeah, yeah, I like that. You know, like it's, it translates really well. People immediately know what we're talking about.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, do I have to work CR into the name?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, it would be nice, you know, I mean, I know, I know I'm just the fucking third chair over here, but it would be cool if you just.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wait, wait. That's not decided that your third chair. Settle down.

[Chris Ryan]

I like the idea. I think we should have like a kind of couchy like predictions market for like. Is it Tracy? Is it cr? Is it Matt Johnson? Where's Neiman? You know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

No women name there. Is there a reason for that?

[Chris Ryan]

That's your show. You tell me.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a really good point. What do you think's going on there? I don't know. Heat to Christian Bale. Yeah, I texted you when this news broke and I said, is this the highest possible ceiling we ever could have gotten for the cast for this movie?

[Chris Ryan]

If you were worried about the floor of the film, I think that that should, this should alleviate some of your worries. I Think the presence of the two, like two top five actors of their

[Sean Fennessy]

generation, like that tight fusion of great actor and great movie star.

[Chris Ryan]

It recaptures the like. Wouldn't it be cool to see these guys finally on screen together? I guess I hadn't been thinking about it the way people probably thought about De Niro, Pacino leading up to Heat, but. And they'd obviously shared a film in the Godfather too. But I now realize that I've always wanted to see Christian Bale and Leonardo DiCaprio, which suggests that they will be playing Neil and Vincent.

[Sean Fennessy]

So explain it. Like, what do you think the formulation is going to be? So.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, this is really complicated, man. I mean, like this book, Heat 2 has elements of Vincent's story after Heat, Chris's story after Heat, and then a prequel set in Chicago and Mexicali and also Central America that encompasses. No, the Central America stuff.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sequel.

[Chris Ryan]

So there's Chris sequel stuff and then there's prequel stuff with Chris Michael Churrito, Neil McCauley and Vincent Hannah rolling around the country in various places, solving crimes and doing crimes.

[Sean Fennessy]

So in this formulation, then Leo would be Neil McCauley, young Neil and. And Christian Bale would be Vincent Hanna.

[Chris Ryan]

This is my guess is. Is my guess is that Bale is going to do the Pacino part and. And that DiCaprio will fulfill his lifelong kind of admiration and obsession with De Niro and play. And play Neil.

[Sean Fennessy]

So that's.

[Chris Ryan]

That's how it's shaping up. But I will say if the. Depending on how straight book translation they want to do, Chris is the star of the mo. Of the movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

And who is is that? Not Austin Butler or someone like him. It has to be someone younger than these leads.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. I don't know how they're going to do aging or aging. And I don't know how you make Austin Butler look like Val Kilmer after he has been shot, had surgery, lost his family and gone to another country.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't either. So I was texting with our friend Alex Ross Perry about this and he. I thought he framed this interestingly. He said the only comp I could really think of similar to this is Mad Fury Road, where you're taking a property that is beloved, that has a ton of iconography. You're moving decades into the future and telling a very similar story with a brand new cast. It's in the same world, same characters, some new characters introduced, but different cast. Now Mad Max Fury Road pulled it off. You could make the case that the Phantom Menace and the Star wars prequels are the same thing, Right. The same filmmaker, the same world, a lot of the same people, but different actors playing them in a different time in their lives. There's not a lot of examples of this. Mad Max Fury Road is goated. Phantom Menace has a complicated legacy.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. And both are directors that. I think Lucas had been on the bench for a long time. I don't think Miller had made anything that was regarded in the same level as the Mad Max films were when they came back and did the film.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, he made Babe Pig in the City, so watch that.

[Chris Ryan]

That wasn't like full of action set pieces and mind blowing post apocalyptic visions. If Michael Mann's got one more bullet in the chamber, it's. It's the Heat one. Right. Like, if you were gonna. If you were gonna trust him to make one more great film, I think it would be this one. I personally am so much more interested in the Chris story than the Neil and Vincent story, which I'm excited to see play out and I'm excited to see what he does with it. But there are elements of it that are a little bit more retreads of Heat. Now I say that knowing full well that the Chris story is essentially retreads of Miami Vice and Black Hat. So it's all one movie with him. But it'll be deeply fascinating to see who they land on for Chris. And if it is someone older, like Bradley Cooper, someone younger, like Austin Butler. Is Adam Driver still in this movie? If he is like, is Adam Driver playing Michael Chirito but 2ft taller? Like, I don't know.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think we probably have to accept that there's going to be mental blockage and we just got to move on. The same way Tom Hardy is not Mel Gibson. Just like, just accept it. It's a different person. And in some ways it will be a slightly different character because of what the actors bring, for sure. Let's play a little game. Can you name the last five Christian Bale movies?

[Chris Ryan]

Pale Blue Eye. Is that in there?

[Sean Fennessy]

That's in there.

[Chris Ryan]

Amsterdam. Amsterdam is Ford vs Ferrari, one of his five previous films. It is Thor, the one where he's in black and white.

[Sean Fennessy]

Love and Thunder. What's the one before that?

[Matt Johnson]

I don't know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Vice from 2018.

[Chris Ryan]

Not working that much.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not working that much. And that's not the greatest slate, obviously for Vice and Ford versus Ferrari. He was acclaimed. Those movies have pretty good legacies. Vice a little bit less so than Ford versus Ferrari. But the Thor movie was a huge bomb. Even though I think he was sick as Gore. The God Butcher. Remember the God Butcher. That should be. That should be your rapper name, by the way.

[Chris Ryan]

God Butcher Stove, God Cooks and God Butcher.

[Sean Fennessy]

Amsterdam's terrible pale blue eye is completely forgettable. He did do the voice of Shoichi in the Boy in the Heron in the English dub.

[Chris Ryan]

Fantastic.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did you see that?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I haven't seen that.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, too bad. And he will appear very shortly as Frankenstein's monster in the Bride.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you excited about that?

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm seeing it on Monday and I'm looking forward to it. I've heard it's not good, but I want it to be good. It's Jesse Buckley and Christian Bale, directed by Maggie Gyllenhaal. I love Maggie Gyllenhaal's last movie, Lost Daughter. I hope it's good. Yeah, heard it's not good.

[Chris Ryan]

Saw Maggie Gyllenhaal and Ryan Coogler talking. It was delightful chat.

[Matt Johnson]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

What were they talking about?

[Chris Ryan]

Aspect ratios.

[Sean Fennessy]

Everybody's all about that these days.

[Chris Ryan]

We've gotten really technical. It's like the way all football talk is, like, what, Too high shells?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Now everybody's like a lens guy.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was listening to Nate Tyson Mina Kimes on Mina show talking about draft prospects, which teams have the most to lose, and it actually reminded me a lot of being in film class where the professor would be saying words and I would be like, I've heard those words before. I don't know what those words mean, but I'm gonna pretend like I do so that I can get through this

[Chris Ryan]

class and also then go out to a bar and repeat those words.

[Sean Fennessy]

Repeat those words. Yes. And of course, we've also premised our entire business on that. He too, man. Gosh. On the one hand, it gets me even more excited for this movie. On the other hand, it raises the stakes in a way that is.

[Chris Ryan]

That's what I was saying initially was that the floor of this movie with DiCaprio and Bale is now at, like, it cannot be worse than 65% in the CR. The CR. Tomato meter.

[Sean Fennessy]

I give or take, like, J. Edgar, Leo hasn't made any bad movies, Right? You know, like, even, like, Body of Lies, which would be lower on his list. I know you love it, but, like, that's still a really entertaining movie. So his. His taste is historically borderline flawless.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And I think that while he is obviously got a lot of affection for historically Titanic figures, no pun intended, but, like, he likes to work with extremely significant directors, and he's not afraid to work with directors who are in their 80s or in their late 70s.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's doing it right now. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So he shoots the Scorsese movie. I imagine he would shoot sometime this year, maybe late this year. And it's not going to be a secret, because I'm sure with the budget that they have, they're going to shoot in Chicago and they're going to shoot in. In the desert, and we'll know about it. I'm trying to decide my level of engagement.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you mean?

[Chris Ryan]

Like, set photo watching and stuff like that, you know? Do you. How much do you want to protect the. The end point of this movie versus like, kind of like we went through with the Odyssey? It's like, do you want to see Matt Damon wearing Uggs and armor as he waits to get into a boat to do something?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I mean, I usually don't, but I'll accept it for something I really care about. Like, I didn't look at very much for one battle after another in the run up to it. I tried to not look at any of those set photos. It's a. It's a. That's a really good question. You know, Warner Brothers between this movie and finally greenlighting that Nancy Myers movie that had been long discussed for two or three years now, they're doubling down on older filmmakers who are kind of, you know, one last job at it, it feels like.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's not their money.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, for now it is, but it may not be very shortly. I don't. We don't need to talk about that.

[Chris Ryan]

No, I mean, I just. I saw that Ellen McKay, Emma Mackie dropped out of the Nancy Myers movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. And she was playing Ella McKay in that film. Yes. It's going to be tough to replace her. It's going to be pretty tricky, too. Very similar.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what I mean?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I look forward to both of those films from those older filmmakers, and I hope they're wonderful. Let's pivot to Scream vii.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

So you've been on the show talking about Scream vi and Scream 5. This series has recently been rebooted, and it was rebooted with two young stars, Melissa Barrera and Jenna Ortega. Neither of those actors are in this movie, reportedly, allegedly, the reasons that they're not in the movie is because specifically Melissa Pereira expressed support for Palestine on her social media, and reportedly the production company behind the Scream movies did not appreciate those comments and she was fired. Jenna Ortega, though she has not confirmed this, sounds as though sort of did.

[Chris Ryan]

It was like in A scheduling conflict with Wednesday had come up and that she would be dropping out of the film. She later went on to talk about how between Melissa dropping out and the original filmmakers, Radio Silence leaving the project, it was no longer really the project that she had signed up for. I thought it was interesting that there was not, despite Jenna Ortega's pretty significant fame, there was not a lot of, we're suing you to keep you into your contract. I don't know the vagaries of that. But they basically did a soft reboot of this franchise midway through what was supposed to be a new trilogy of films.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. And I'll just say, purely from a movie perspective, it's really unfortunate to lose both of those actors, especially for me, Melissa Pereira, because I think what the writers of those movies and the Radio Silence guys brought to that character and those movies to me are mixed. And I just revisited them and they're not as good as I had remembered. And I was very positive about both of them on our episodes. But Melissa Barrera's character, who is the daughter of Billy Loomis, the killer, one of the two killers from the first film, has an interesting psychological dynamic where she is haunted by the fact that she is a serial killer. And she's got serial killer bones and bl. She is extremely violent. And when the movie lets her, she's

[Chris Ryan]

also got a body count. By the end of the two movies, she really.

[Sean Fennessy]

She kind of takes care of business in an exciting way. And they don't have that energy in this movie anymore.

[Chris Ryan]

No. It's really the only place for this franchise to go. And we'll get into Seven. Is the idea of the final girl also being the killer and that the Scream ghostface gene is somehow passed down and they have chosen to do different things in the movie. I Revisited 6 to get ready for 7 was much more fond of it than I was when I first saw it. I think when I first saw it, I came out and was just extremely mad that it was not authentically shot in Times Square. Remember, I was.

[Sean Fennessy]

We were more flipped.

[Chris Ryan]

I really liked it because I think I went into it being like, this is actually a great idea to put Scream in New York. And then they shot it in Toronto. And I was like, this is just. I can feel how not New York this is.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Rewatching it and I think you actually mentioned this in a letterbox note that you put up is like, it is so stabby and it's so giallo in places. And it is very self consciously referencing those films. And Going into it without the expectation that I'm going to have, like, this authentic Midnight Cowboy experience. I had a lot more time for it. And especially in comparison to seven, it's like we didn't know how good we had it.

[Sean Fennessy]

That is, I do feel a bit that way. I revisited five and six before seeing seven, and I was a little let down by six in particular. But I think both of those films, like all Scream movies, they're whodunits, right? And if the mystery isn't strong and isn't fun to revisit and see the clues being revealed, then they don't stand up that well. The first film is still really fun because of the way that the mystery unfolds for us. And obviously it's the original, so it's got a different kind of weight to it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, when you're getting into seven now, I'm likely an eighth film because of the box office.

[Sean Fennessy]

This movie's gonna do really well.

[Chris Ryan]

That this movie will do. You start getting into now, you're repeating. It's almost like Force Awakens in the sequels, where you're like, now we can just remake the originals with a new cast and essentially play all the same notes. So what should have been happening here was a metatextual conversation about the characters, but also the characters, fictional representations, because that would have been modeled after Scream 3, which is the one set in Hollywood where, you know, Lance Henriksen is this sort of old, lascivious producer. We find out more about Sidney's mother, that this guy played by Scott Foley, is the filmmaker. I actually like Scream 3. They're off track now, though. So Scream 7, it's a reset inside of a reset kind of functions as Scream 1. There are scenes that are essentially recreations of Scream 1 with Sidney Prescott's daughter. In this movie, we can get into the sort of vagaries of this scene.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, let's talk about the details of it. You're right that the movie essentially moves from Woodsboro to Pine Grove, a very similarly leafy small town America setting for a slasher movie. In this movie, Sidney Prescott has built a new life for herself in this town, which is in Indiana, until a new Ghostface killer begins to target her daughter, Tatum, named, of course, after Rose McGowan's character from the first film, forcing her to face her past, to end the killings once and for all. That's the sort of logline that does recall the Halloween films and Jamie Lee Curtis role in the Halloween films. And there is a literal reference to that from the Jasmine Savoy Brown character who returns from this film, as does the character who plays her brother, Mason Gooding. They appeared in 5 and 6. In addition to that, we have a number of other figures from the original trilogy of films, including Courteney Cox, who I thought had died in six and then had not died.

[Chris Ryan]

She was six and five. But especially Six breaks a certain, even extreme rule of plausible belief in. In that how many people get stabbed dozens of times only to live for the purposes of franchise continuation.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, and that idea does resurface in this film as well. Something that is a little bit frustrating if you don't want to have anything else about this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

It's very difficult to talk about Scream movies without getting into them. So you can save this till after you've seen it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. There are mysteries, and there are also appearances by actors who appear in the previous films who will give a bit away about where this movie is going and what it's actually about. So check the film out or fast forward to my conversation with Amanda and Adam about Nirvana and then later with Matt Johnson. Okay, so this is a spoiler conversation. In addition to Neve Campbell and Courteney Cox, Matthew Lillard is back for this film. David Arquette makes a brief appearance in this film, despite the fact that those characters are believed to be dead. Isabel May joins as Neve Campbell's daughter, and there's a whole host of New Zealand actors.

[Chris Ryan]

So there's like a Paramount Rep Theater thing going where Michelle Randolph, who's on, is in the Cold Open. And Isabel May, who is on 1883, is the. Essentially the hero of the film, which

[Sean Fennessy]

I think is actually quite clever on the studio's part to just plug in the Taylor Sheridan young blonde players into this world. You know, they have, like a feeder system now for teenage actresses also. You've got Anna Camp, a familiar face. You've got Ethan Embry, a familiar face coming into the film. Hitmaker Tim Symonds, our boy, I'll just say right up front, not enough to hitmaker in this movie for my taste, could have used literally three to four more scenes.

[Chris Ryan]

Release the hitmaker. Cut.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, the big headline on this is that Kevin Williamson was brought back to the franchise essentially to save this project, which had been so troubled, as we mentioned. And Williamson was the writer of the first film, you know, a hallowed figure in the 90s turnaround of horror writing. He obviously also wrote I Know what yout Did Last Summer, which rebooted last year in, I think, in a somewhat similarly messy way.

[Matt Johnson]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

Attempting to be Contemporary and kind of failing to be contemporary. So just tell me off the bat, like, did you like this movie? Did you hate it? Are you somewhere in the middle on it?

[Chris Ryan]

It's my least favorite Scream movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Interesting. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

It brings me no joy to say that because obviously it's a franchise that I've drawn a lot of enjoyment from. I think one of the major things that I had a problem with was the filmmaking. I felt like this was an incredibly flat, incredibly self serious, borderline, looked like a TV show. And that's usually your insult to lob, but, like, it just felt like I was watching something on Paramount. Plus, yeah, it has no life. And then that translates into a lot of the performances, especially from Nev Campbell, who was giving a very, very stoic, emotionless, despite all of the emotional things that are happening, turn as Sidney look. And to the extent, same way that Halloween belongs as much to Jamie Lee Curtis as it does to Michael Myers, I'm. You can make an argument that screaming belongs as much to Neve Campbell as it does to Ghostface or Wes Craven.

[Sean Fennessy]

This movie certainly announces that it is insinuating that this film played way more

[Chris Ryan]

like a vigilante justice movie than it did like a slasher or a fun horror movie. And I don't think it found the right tone or it kind of settled on the, like, easiest common denominator tone. To watch her go through what, like, her character goes through in this movie, you would never know it given, like, her reactions, except for, like, a few brief moments. Like her daughter is essentially being stalked by a series of Ghostface killers who may or may not be ghosts from her own past. Her husband is brought into harm's way. Pretty much everyone around her is either killed or almost killed. And she kind of just like rolls through it like it's another day running her coffee shop. So there was something really off about this one, and it really didn't have the things that I go to Scream movies for.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. So you made an interesting point there, which is that it does play more like a vigilante justice movie than it does like a horror movie. The movie is not scary. Doesn't really have any scares. It has a couple of jump kill moments, but we come to expect those in Scream movies. So there's nothing exciting. I did find that there were two, maybe three clever kill set pieces.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's one in a bar that I thought was very good, that features a tap.

[Chris Ryan]

But as a Ghostface originalist, I like. I like knife work.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And they get away from that a Little different.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is very. It is more. It is more 80s slasher kind of presentational horror where it's like, let's stop the movie so the killer can do something extravagant that will get a chuckle out of the audience, which is not really what these movies do. And I guess I'm not totally sure why they went in this direction. Now there are parts of the movie that I think are classic. Kevin Williamson, who is also the creator of Dawson's Creek and has worked in a lot of kind of prefab YA over the years. And the relationships between some of the young actors I think is totally fine and serviceable. It's kind of like placeholder Y. But you get this tension between Isabel May's daughter character and Neve Campbell and like something that I expect to see in my life, like a mother and a daughter kind of disagreeing about what they are and are not allowed to do. And I think some of that stuff could have worked well if there was a little bit more time spent on it. But there's all of this worry in Scream movies about building out the rep company because you have to introduce all these potential suspects. So there's not enough time to forge real relationships in these movies. So then when you get to the point where, like, someone might die. Joel McHale, perhaps the husband character, I was like, oh, he died. Okay. Like, I didn't care. It was not that big of a deal. But he lives. But he lives, which is even worse.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, he gets stabbed dozens of times and loses a lot of blood and is wrapped up in a piece of plastic in his. The addition that they're building on the.

[Sean Fennessy]

Also a huge jall. Oh, move there. The sort of like wrapped around. And you can see through the cellophane. There's literally a perspective shot through the. Here's a.

[Chris Ryan]

Here's a way of looking at this entire thing. I don't think they wanted to make a Scream movie. I don't. I think Neve Campbell came back for like, almost. I. I'm not supposing why she did this, but like, one of the reasons why she apparently didn't go to Scream six. Or she says the reason why she Wasn't in Scream 6 is because she felt like she wasn't being paid adequately or what, compared to the value she brings to the franchise.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

Um, you know, there are actors in this film like, like hitmaker, like Joe McHale who are quite funny, who are not given a lot of funny material to work with or even given space to ad lib or riff or Create any kind of, like, light to the dark. And all the teens are acting like they know they're about to die in the second act anyway. So that you don't really ever get invested in Tatum, Tatum's boyfriend, Tatum's friends, anybody. Whereas, like, if you go back to those Scream movies, man, like, you're like, I care about what happens to Sarah Michelle Geller. I care about what happens to Rose McGowan. I care about what happens to Parker Posey. And even through four, like, it's a pretty good ensemble of people having, like, a ton of fun and acting like teenagers. And that's just really not. They're all like, we're meat puppets, man. We're about to get stabbed to death.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's no way to get around that, though, because the whole premise of the movie is around this idea of Sidney being a person for whom trouble is always found, you know, like, she can't get away from the fact she's defined, even though she's working in this coffee shop in Indiana, as a target. And so everyone, any drifter who comes in, any true crime obsessed teenage boy who comes in, knows she's a knife magnet. And that's just a. It makes the story hard to tell because the only thing you can really talk about is, oh, my God, you're Sidney Prescott. And so it's just. There's like, a flaw in the design of the series. And I hope Neve Campbell got paid. That's cool. And I think the movie's gonna do really well because they're just slapping Neve Campbell right in the center of the poster. And they're like, scream is back. And you're 30 years older. And so am I. And so are you. And don't we all love that feeling we had when we saw Neve Campbell get terrorized in 1996?

[Chris Ryan]

But there are some things that I want to grow old with, and there are some keep me young. And Scream is just something that I think should belong to younger people. And the pivot that this movie, this franchise made, and especially the last two, where it's like, way more about

[Sean Fennessy]

this

[Chris Ryan]

kind of, like, I don't really. Kind of a non existent bond that would have been between these characters over the course of these movies, where now there's a lot of the time spent in Scream 7 or people sat in static positions talking about the trauma that they've experienced, but also how close they are. Whereas it's obvious that, like, these characters are not interacting were it not in a Scream movie. And I, like David Arquette too. But like, we're acting like Dewey is the last American evil was assassinated.

[Matt Johnson]

And it's.

[Chris Ryan]

It's just this really weird sentimentality that comes out of that kind of Fast and Furious, like one more time, brother. And like looking at all the ghosts on the beach, it's like, this isn't what I come to these movies for.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's also not really what legacy horror is about. And it's different in that way. Fast and Furious is a much better comparison where it's like you're back with your old friends and they'll always love each other. You know, Friday the 13th 7 is not about that.

[Chris Ryan]

The whole premise is like the. The person you are having sex with is actually a killer. Like, there isn't supposed to be trust and relationship.

[Sean Fennessy]

But not in this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. And you know, I think one of the things that it's been really interesting over the last three films is the steadfast presence of the twins is Chad and Mindy.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is Chad and Mindy, two super horror fans who are obsessed with the history of also the Woodsboro murders. And yes.

[Chris Ryan]

And they are present in the town that Five is set in. Their friends, they're kind of like, you know, they're Randy's.

[Sean Fennessy]

Randy is their uncle. That's right, Randy. Jamie Kennedy's character from the first film.

[Chris Ryan]

And then they follow Tara off to college in New York and now have hooked up interning for Gail Weathers as Gail tries to rebuild her journalism career by going back to her crime reporting roots. And these two have been stabbed dozens of times now, like upwards of 100.

[Sean Fennessy]

Mason Gooding's character has been.

[Chris Ryan]

I can't believe he's walking where he is, like, stretched out as two ghost face stab him right all through the

[Sean Fennessy]

stomach for some reason, never in the heart.

[Adam Naiman]

And

[Chris Ryan]

I. I always laugh when we do this, when we're just like, that's against the rules. But it's the combination of the extreme trauma that they've experienced. How maudlin most people in this movie are. And they yet still are trying to do the glib winking.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, Randy. They're Randy Sergeant.

[Chris Ryan]

Kind of like chit chat.

[Sean Fennessy]

Here's how this world works. Here's what a requel.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that really like, it just shatters. It shatters. It.

[Sean Fennessy]

It does the thing.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm like, if you guys want, just make them the stars of the movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was. That's what I was gonna say is like, I like them and I think they're fun and I think they're the only time the movie has fun is when they're, like, nattering at each other. And for a movie that, as you say, is not very funny, I don't know that I needed more of them. They felt very tacked on. The idea of, like, them teaming up with Gail is just, like, very overworked. But I think they're both charming. I think they're both fun to watch on screen.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, they're. They're the only two people having fun in this movie. But if that's the case, just make that the movie, because you can't also have them. They would just be physically deformed at this point. And also, like, I'm never going near a knife ever again in my life. Right. Like, yes. It's sort of like a silliness to it that I think kind of takes me out of the movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

I totally agree with you. One of the components of the movie that is somewhat similar to, as I said, I know what you did last Summer reboot last year is the idea of true crime obsession, and in this movie's case, what AI and Deepfakes can do to horror movie storytelling. Sure. And I thought the first stroke of Matthew Lillard's reveal on a phone call was pretty effective in the movie. Now, I knew it was coming because I knew Matthew Lillard was in this movie, and he's been doing press and been getting quoted around. I wish they hadn't done that. I wish it would have been a surprise. If it had been a surprise, I think it would have been even more effective. But this idea of a character who we definitely thought was dead could be back would be hard to accept, but was exciting in a way.

[State Farm Announcer]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

And then the movie attempting to use the impossibility of that to show you maybe the nefariousness of Deepfakes or AI, but it kind of shows it to us. And it has some characters be like, fuck that shit, man. But it doesn't really follow through on anything kind of thematically or intellectually. Well, it's just a dangling threat.

[Chris Ryan]

A straight up question I, did I miss something is like, Tatum's boyfriend Ben has been creating these AI videos of Stu Macher, Matthew Lillard's character, facetiming Sidney and harassing her. And Tatum figures this out. She sees Ben's laptop open, and he's been making these videos. Is he just trying to see if he could do it?

[Sean Fennessy]

No. My impression was that he was not responsible for sending those videos, that the two killers are the ones who sent the videos, but that when he heard that Stu Macher was alive. He was like. And he heard the possibility of could it be deepfakes. He. Because he's interested in computer science and is going to be, you know, where is he going? Stanford. To study. They talked about this, right? He was like experimenting himself to see if it could be done.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

But he is, as far as I could tell, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but as far as I can tell, he wasn't responsible for sending those videos. He was just kind of hanging out and also left his laptop open in his truck for some reason.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, because the movie is kind of like tonally flat, it doesn't feel the way lots of recut or rewritten movies would usually feel like that will usually suggest a massive tonal shift. This is pretty consistent in its tone, I'll give it that. But it does feel like there are plot lines that they were like, ugh, no, we can't. We gotta stop doing this. You know, like. And whether or not this guy Ben was supposed to be Billy Loomis reincarnated for Tatum, who was the stand in for her mother, and they reenact like Billy coming to her window and everything like that happens in the first, first film, I, I was like, oh, I wonder if they just like pulled the plug on this.

[Sean Fennessy]

My, my read on it was that it was always an intentional red herring. And in that, in fact, the two people who were revealed as killers, who we can talk about now in an utterly bizarre choice are Ethan Embry's character, who plays a. An aide at a local mental facility

[Chris Ryan]

who's also used to work for Google,

[Sean Fennessy]

who used to be a security officer for Google, apparently, and it has an interest in AI. And Anna Camp, who plays Sidney Prescott's neighbor and it turns out is a person who is obsessed with. By her and read her memoir and used it as a launchpad for her own killing spree.

[Matt Johnson]

Really.

[Chris Ryan]

But first to kill her abusive husband.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Chris Ryan]

But then, because Sidney wasn't in New York in Scream 6, essentially took that as like a betrayal of what Sidney's ethos is and went on to start killing people in Pine Grove in order to reactivate Sidney as a character in her life.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. As the real final girl.

[Chris Ryan]

This also just for. As a note marks like I think three or four shots that this movie takes at Scream 6, which made me like enormously defensive of Scream 6, I thought was like kind of dirty work and weird to do that. It's like for a movie, for a franchise that is so at pains to be like, thank you to all the people who have made this what it is to, like, piss all over something because Melissa Barrera spoke her mind.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think that's. I totally agree. I think that's exactly what it was, too. It was a very pointed, like, see, this is the real star of these movies. And I didn't enjoy that. Now, I do think that this movie commits an extremely similar sin to Number six, which is when Anna Camp shows up in the movie. I'm like, anna Camp is way too famous to not be the killer. Way too famous. Just like with Dermot Mulroney. I'm like, why is Dermot Mulroney playing a cop with nothing to do? Yes. Like, they can't keep doing that. It's somewhat similar for Ethan Embry, but we're. We're 90s kids who are familiar with Ethan Embry being a borderline movie star.

[Chris Ryan]

I was like, oh, that's cool. They're just. Ethan Embry happens to be in this film. I thought it was weird that he was on the poster and I was like, I guess. I doubt it's Mark Consuelos. And it doesn't seem like it's Tim. So I suppose, like, just by deduction, now that you've killed all these people, although they've started messing around with, like, you thought I was dead, but I was actually faking my own death so that I could then join my father in the killing spree.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Here's the problem with screen trilogies. There's really only two films worth of story. The first film, there is somebody close to Sidney or whoever is the killer. So in Scream 5, it's Jack Quaid's character. In Scream 1, it's Skeet Ulrich and. And Matthew Lillard. Then Scream 2 is the revenge of that character's friends, family, whoever.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. So that's this person away from me.

[Chris Ryan]

In Scream 6, that's what sort of happens with. Well, I mean, I guess in Scream 2, it's Olant is obsessed with it, and then Lori Metoff is Billy Loomis's mom.

[Sean Fennessy]

Correct.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. I love, like, trying to make sense of these.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Scream 3. The reason Scream 3 works for me is because Scream 3 is not about Ghostface. It's about, how would you tell this story? It's about the Stab movies. It's about all this stuff. This should be. Scream 6 did this where it was like, Dermot Mulroney and his daughter were

[Sean Fennessy]

Jack Quaid's father and sister and also the other brother.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. And so what's Scream 7 about? Like, I like, they. They almost need to make these sets of two.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's why. It's why, maybe even more so than the previous films, this movie is a giallo. Because you'll get to the end of a giallo sometimes and be like, it's actually that guy who is down the hall in minute 38. And you're like, who the fuck is that guy?

[Matt Johnson]

Right?

[Sean Fennessy]

And I like that in giallos. Cause they're so grizzly, like, for me,

[Chris Ryan]

that for some reason, like, then you need a more contained space. Like, it needs to be a little bit more Agatha Christie, where it's like, even in Hunt for October, you're like, oh, it's that guy.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, in this.

[Chris Ryan]

You're like, why is she doing this?

[Sean Fennessy]

She has to explain so much in that final scene, so much of her motivation, that it is, like, on the tip of camp. Like, there's. Pardon the pun there. It's, like, really ridiculous. And she's playing it kind of funny. I really like Anna Camp. I think she's a really good actress. I think she's a really funny actress. And she's. She's definitely going for, like, crazy Pilates Mom.

[Chris Ryan]

Everything she does in that last scene is like, everything the rest of the film is missing, it doesn't have.

[Sean Fennessy]

Because that's exactly right.

[Chris Ryan]

It's kind of like what I like about four, which I know you don't like.

[Matt Johnson]

Four?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, it's four Roberts one. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Is Mikey Madison and the Culkin Brother kind of. And that vibe of that, like, weird, unhinged energy that that movie has. And you know, that film is trying to do a lot with, like, catching up with smartphones, which was always gonna be a difficult element.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is the issue is a lot of these movies. Part of what's so great about 1, to a lesser extent, 2 and 3, but also in 2 and 3, is those are movies about movies. The Randy character is this kind of surrogate explainer. Yeah, it's a video store.

[Chris Ryan]

Quentin Tarantino in the video store, telling you what the rules are.

[Sean Fennessy]

They're watching Halloween while they're. While the movie is happening in two. It's film class. And it's all these references to sequels and learning about them. In three, it's. We're actually making a movie and we're in Hollywood, and here's how it works. I think they're as effective in that order. Personally, I think it's Scream. Scream two, Scream three. Some people think three is better than two. Whatever. We can disagree after that. It's all kind of like people who are not as obsessed with movies as they are being in true crime stories.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And Reddit.

[Sean Fennessy]

And it becomes the Internet, it becomes smartphones, it becomes true crime documentary, it becomes podcasts. So there's that stuff's just not as interesting to me.

[Chris Ryan]

Kind of interesting. I think one thing that would have been. And you know this gets referenced a bunch in five at the Jenna Ortega Cold Open, which also sort of introduces the idea of someone getting stabbed a lot in Living is Jenna Ortega's talking about elevated horror. And there's like this conversation with Ghostface about like whether or not elevated horror

[Sean Fennessy]

is the Babadook movies. Like that.

[Chris Ryan]

That is probably where. And maybe that's sort of what five and six. Maybe that's what Radio Silence were. Sort of thinking is like what we now have to lampoon or talk about is the need for horror movie characters to be self aware about how traumatic what they're experiencing is.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. No, I think that, I think that's overt and I think the, the idea of the Mindy character is very much like explaining how things changed. And here, how, here's how horror movies work now. They still love movies, but the movie is still stuck on cell phone technology. Like the Dylan Minette character. Like everything being just a near miss with like your mom gets killed and you could have avoided it, but because the technology didn't work as well and it just doesn't. It doesn't hit as hard in this movie in particular, the, the AI stuff is like, it's not insidious, but it's not interesting. And so it's just kind of nothing.

[Chris Ryan]

But I think also like in, in concert with, if you go back and watch Scream 1, it looks like the conformist compared to this.

[Sean Fennessy]

So just like, well, Kevin Williams is

[Chris Ryan]

just not a great widescreen beautiful like Kevin, like Wes Craven shooting these scenes with such incredible awareness of space. And Kevin Williamson I think was like, yeah, we're going to put the camera there. They're going to have this conversation. It's shot like a, like a episode of television in a lot of ways.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. There's a book that came out last year by Clark Collis called Screaming and Conjuring the Resurrection and Unstoppable Rise of Modern Horror. And it's basically a compendium, a pocket history really of horror movies from the 90s through today. And there's a big chunk of time in the beginning of the book spent on the Scream franchise and the original Scream movie and a lot of the choices that Craven made and the ways in which even the cast were like, I don't know about this, but he's like, I've been making horror movies for 25 years, trust me. And how he had to navigate the Weinsteins and he had to navigate the script and the sensitivities of the actors who were involved in the movie. And then I believe in that movie, they talk about basically everyone going to a friends and family cast screening of the movie, and they're like, holy fucking shit. Like, Wes did it. And he was right. And I thought of that moment in the book when I was watching this movie. And there is a as has become standard montage of the town shutting down and going into a kind of quarantine set to Nick Cave's Red Right Hand, which to me is like one of the more iconic recent horror movie sequences in the Wes Craven film, where it's like, end of the first act, there's a killer. That killer has just not just killed teenager, but it's town before sundown.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I remember being in the movie theater at 13 years old and having chills at that moment. I'd never heard that song before. I'd never seen horror movie making that felt that elegant.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

And we overrate these things because we saw them when we were younger.

[Chris Ryan]

We also overrate them because not even overrate them, but I think the level of. I mean, if we saw another average slasher that was shot like a TV show that was just coming out on a Friday, we probably wouldn't be talking about it 30 minutes into it.

[Sean Fennessy]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

But screams Great magic trick was. Was this idea that in the sequels, there is also a series of films called Stab that people are going nuts for. And that Sidney has become this iconic figure whose life has been documented by these actresses. And she's played by Tori Spelling and all this stuff. And even when you watch the Cold Open for two, which is the Jada Pinkett Smith, Omar Epps ones, and everybody's going so crazy at the movie theater. Even when I was rewatching 2 the other day, I also was getting hyped up where I was like, that's right, motherfucker, it's Scream. And I was like, I'm 48. Why am I doing this? But I've been watching these movies for such a long time that its own. Its echo chamber of enthusiasm has worked for decades.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's true. We didn't talk about the cold open of this movie too much. Where Jimmy Tatro. And who's the actress?

[Chris Ryan]

Michelle Randolph. Michelle Randolph from Layingman?

[Sean Fennessy]

Not familiar with that show. But you are.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, she does great work. She's a TCU cheerleader and daughter of Billy Bob Thornton and Ally Larder.

[Sean Fennessy]

Interesting. Great genes. That sequence where those two characters are visiting a. I couldn't tell. Is it actually Stu Macher's house that has been refashioned?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's Stu Macher's house has become an experiential Airbnb where you go in and it's like an animatronic ghost face is like, I'm gonna get you. And there's still body tape on the ground.

[Sean Fennessy]

The problem with that sequence is very similar to a lot of the most recent Scream movies is just like, these people are gonna die. And the another ingenious act of Scream is you would have no idea that Drew Barrymore would ever die in the opening scene of the original film. It was a surprise. And we're no longer in surprise territory. There's nothing that a movie that is seven films into its franchise can do about that. But we're hard on the things that we love.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I still think four is my favorite Cold open, which is the Russian nesting doll of girls watching Stab movies and then getting killed.

[Sean Fennessy]

The gold open of Scream 4 is very fun. You haven't seen Nirvana, the band, the

[Chris Ryan]

show, the movie, to my great chagrin.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you have any relationship to those guys? You know about those movies?

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, no, I don't know about this series that they're doing. I can't wait. I've really been enjoying Matt's interviews. I've been seeing online, huge BlackBerry fan, so I'm excited to check it out.

[Sean Fennessy]

This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day to day. But our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think, they weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW and the other drivers out there. Grab the wheel, do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn [e-mail] anything else you're watching out there that you want to recommend?

[Chris Ryan]

I would just heartily recommend industry to any big picture watcher just because I think Mickey down and Konrad K, who are the creators and oftentimes directors of the show, are doing some real cinematic shit this season. And this concludes on Sunday. So it's really cool.

[Sean Fennessy]

This new season is turning into andor season two for me, where I'm like. I'm like bobbing and Weaving to avoid any information about it. Yeah. And I'll see it next year, I'm sure, hopefully. No, I will see it. I'll see it when I go on spring break.

[Chris Ryan]

Are you going on spring break?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, with my family.

[Chris Ryan]

It's a, it's a fun show to watch with the fam, for sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

You think my 5 year old's going to be into it? Probably not.

[Chris Ryan]

If your daughter became like a big Harper, Stan, I think you'd have a lot of problems.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, we'll see. She's very independent minded, as you know.

[Chris Ryan]

I know, man. She was directing me when I was reading the Star wars book tour. She was just like, read that and read that and then don't read this, but read that.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Welcome to my life. All right, Sierra, thank you very much. Let's go now to my conversation with Amanda Dobbins and Adam Naiman. Okay. Joined by one special guest and one co host. Amanda's here and Adam Naiman is here making his Netflix debut. Hello.

[Adam Naiman]

Well, this is going to be on Netflix. That's, that's great. I love that,

[Sean Fennessy]

you know, you're, you're part of the Borg now, my friend. I'm very sorry, but this is how it works.

[Adam Naiman]

No, I, I, I, I, I, I love it. Hi. Hi. Netflix. We have, we have Netflix in Canada. You know, in both, in both, in both languages. Yeah.

[State Farm Announcer]

And I, and I do think that this is on the Netflix in Canada.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, yeah.

[State Farm Announcer]

But not, not all of them. So congratulations, Canada.

[Adam Naiman]

This is great. I'm gonna tell all my friends to watch their Netflix. Can't wait. Yeah, I'm good.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're here because we are going to be talking about a Canadian product.

[State Farm Announcer]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

That is called Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie, which is a very normal name for a movie. For a very normal movie. We've all seen this movie. I've been talking about this movie for six months. Adam. I think you've been talking to me about this movie for over a year.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah, I think I like to check in or make sure you check in on what's happening in Toronto. And often you're like, what's happening in Toronto? And I say not much. And then sometimes things happen like this film, which carries a lot of local pride and the long history of our relationships, our national cinema's relationship to the United States, which is pretty one sided. So it's interesting to see if and when and how and to what degree things cross over. And I'm sure you, you know, I know you talked to Matt, who's Just so shy, and he has no thoughts to share about anything. He needs to really work on his interview technique. You know, if only the guy could do. If only the guy could do some interviews and talk about what he does, there'd be a real chance of. Of him and him and his. His collaborators breaking through.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, I've never seen a person will a film to success by sheer force of their quality of podcast interview, but Matt is. Matt is trying to do that. So, you know, all three of us have had a chance to see the movie, as I mentioned. And Adam, I think you'll be very helpful in setting some of the context around the movie. But I thought it was just an absolute marvel of a movie comedy. And Amanda, I was so excited when you told me last week that you just. You went out to go see it of your own volition. You were just like, I checked out Nirvana.

[State Farm Announcer]

Yeah, I was influenced by, by you and by Adam and by the will of Matt Johnson and the way it makes its way across the Internets and the different Internets that we're all on. But yeah, I just went to the Lamley on a Friday afternoon and just started laughing. And I had the experience that I haven't had a long time in the theaters where I was laughing at things and then random strangers were also laughing. And then the laughing. Laughing kind of compounded is genuinely very, very funny. I have a lot of questions for you about what Matt Johnson said to you during the interview.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[State Farm Announcer]

Because I, I wasn't there, and I. And there is a real, like, how did they do this element to the movie? But, you know, Adam, you highlighted that this is a Canadian export and a major. A film of significance to your community.

[Adam Naiman]

There are 30 million of us, you know. Amanda.

[State Farm Announcer]

Well, I just wanted to say that I. Watching this, this film, having quite literally never been to Canada, which I don't know how that's happened, did feel like I was also part of the community and, And I didn't get all of the Canada references, probably. And if you. If you want to, you know, do a TED Talk on that, I'm excited to listen. But there was something about watching this. This movie, and I think some of it is. It's. It's a great, like, buddy comedy, and I think the sense of humor and it is very founded in, like, pop culture references both of 2008 and now. So the, the language was familiar to me, but there was a real just like, one of us, one of us vibe to watching these guys make this happen on a. On a Big screen and, and feeling like knowing what we would want to see. And also, I, I, I just, I felt included. I was like, oh, these are, these are my buds. This is part of a, I like, I'm a part of this movement, even though I'm fairly new to it. And once again, I'm not Canadian, so. So can I ask.

[Adam Naiman]

Amanda, can I ask. It's a Canadian to an honorary Canadian. Very important question. How much longer was the line in the men's washroom at the Nirvana screening? Was the ratio. Ratio was like 95.

[State Farm Announcer]

I was the only woman in the, in the screening. That's okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

There were. You know, it's funny that you saw it at the Lamley, because I saw it a second time at the Lambley in Glendale as well. And there were, there were quite a few women in there. And it was the exact same thing that you described. Everyone was laughing. And we used to do this as a community. There have been a couple. You know, the Naked Gun, I think was a recent example where like, people went to the movies and they laughed. And that was a unique experience for us. But this movie does tap into a very specific experiential quality of movie going that has as much in common, I think, with maybe when everyone saw the hangover together in 2008, which is referenced in this film as seeing a Jackass movie in theaters. And that's sort of how did they do this quality and this sense of the real and the meta fictional and the fictional all meeting. I'll just very quickly set up the movie, Adam, before you give us both your insights into it and kind of the broader context that it exists inside of. But as I said, directed by Matt Johnson, screenplay by Matt and Jay McCarroll, his co star and co conspirator in this project. They've worked with a very small team for a number of years on what was first a web series and then was a television series and is now a feature film. Matt has directed a handful of other features, including 2023's BlackBerry. He was on the show for that. Easily one of my five favorite conversations in the history of the show. And he is a great showman and a great character. He's created a great character in the world. And he and Jay together are great characters operating off of each other. And even though people may not have seen the web series or the television series, or maybe they didn't see the Dirtys or BlackBerry or Operation Avalanche or any of the other things that he has done over the years, it took me 30 seconds to know exactly what the movie was doing and to find a way to love it. And that is an amazing magic trick and something that I just kind of want to get off my chest before anybody who is listening to this and thinking, like, should I see this? Can I see this? Am I going to understand it with all this lore? Adam, as somebody who's known Matt for a while and is much more versed in the history of this project, you know, how do you. How would you set it up and what did you think of it?

[Adam Naiman]

Well, there's a big, big picture, which is that the long history of filmmaking in Toronto is always people running around without permission. And because I can feel Netflix subscribers canceling as I say this, I won't do a long history of filmmaking in Toronto. But the short version is that you have movies like Nobody Wave Goodbye or Going down the Road, which are shot kind of illegally and on the cheap and about what an alienating city Toronto is. Like, most of Canada hates Toronto. That's the job. So they like watching movies about what a crappy place it is to be. That's the plot of Going down the Road. And Matt is not unaware of this. I think he's very aware of this. He talks a very good game, seeming unaware of everything. And he makes it seem, based on his references, that he's completely enthralled to Hollywood. But if you watch his movies from the beginning, like the Dirties, it's an ambivalent relationship to American film and a really funny idea about Canadian success. So, I mean, the Rivoli, which is the nightclub in the film, is a real nightclub in Toronto, and playing it means nothing. I mean, the great joke of the show is that in 20 years, they haven't played the Rivoli. You would almost have to, like, be trying to not. You know, the Rivoli is a symbol of success that's really disproportionately big to them and recognizably small to anyone who lives here. And also, if you live in Toronto, you're very used to seeing the city play other places. Like, if the cn. If the CN Tower shows up, it's an editing mistake, or, like, it's set here, you know, so this whole idea of local iconography is important to a lot of Toronto filmmakers. And Nirvana, like, it doesn't. I don't think it exoticizes Toronto, but it doesn't hide it. It turns the cnt, the CN Tower, into a prop and, like, the closest Canada is going to ever get to a Mission Impossible scene. But it's like also a jackass scene. Like they fused Mission Impossible and. And Jackass in a way that I've always thought made sense. You know, the, the idea of. The idea of stunt takes on like a triple meaning in, in the work. But this is like the third iteration of the Matt and Jay thing. And the way I read the film, I've written about it a little bit is I find it a very interesting movie about getting older because they are literally chasing their 20 year old selves and I think chasing the freedom and to some extent the irresponsibility of not doing this professionally. And they put an awful lot of talent and resource to try and erase any progress they've made. Like Nirvana is about not making progress and having to escape that progress and disguise it by replicating the camera types and shooting style and then recreating Toronto in the image of 2008 and trying to fit into their old clothes and matches. Wears the same hat. There's a meaning there. It's just like a lot of things that are kind of meaningful and about something superficially, it's very stupid. And the stupidity is like expertly done. The highest compliment I can pay to this movie is if someone watches and said those guys seem really stupid. I would be like, absolutely does seem that way.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's part of the design of it for sure. I think there's also something in like the technical approach that they take to it where you've got a lot of things that feel very 2008 culturally, like into camera 4th wall breaking or the whiteboard idea generation format of the series and the movie where they're constantly flipping down a whiteboard to write down one of Matt's schemes or the black and white flashbacks with the slowed down audio that are all these callbacks to early YouTube culture and early handmade stuff that is in the lineage of what you're talking about with the Canadian stuff. Plus the movie I think is kind of. I'll speak for myself appropriately as you're like in your early 40s and you're looking back at your longtime friendships and the ways in which they change and the ways in which they don't change and the ways in which you become annoyed with your friends. But you're like, I will never leave this person. And it's a pretty soulful movie. I thought about that. Even though it is very silly and very kind of stupid at times, it felt very genuine and very sincere while also being like an episode of Scooby Doo. And I think that that's great. It felt Very unshackled by, like, expectations or irony or, you know, a lot of stuff that I think kind of gets in the way of a lot of American comedies, a lot of American movies about friendship. It was just these guys kind of getting up to trouble at scale. And I don't know, it was very invigorating for me as a. As a movie watcher. I really was moved by it.

[State Farm Announcer]

Yeah, I. I was surprised by the scale as well, because it does because of the format and using like, the older footage. And there is like a. Two guys in a, like, shitty apartment with some orbits, you know, quality to this and like, what mischief can we get up to? And that is the major appeal. And then they are suddenly on top of the CN Tower, which. Adam, I do know what that is, even though I've, you know, never been. And it's not prominently featured in most media Made in Toronto. So it.

[Adam Naiman]

Can you name another. Can you name another building in Toronto?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, of course. The Rivoli.

[Adam Naiman]

The Rivoli.

[State Farm Announcer]

And then Drake's House, right? Yeah, yeah, that's three. But I've seen a lot of Architectural Digest features on that one.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sue, you've also seen it in this film. I know.

[State Farm Announcer]

Well, yeah, but. But sue, it has this, like these dueling. You know, it feels very small and intimate. And then it is also just suddenly when they're the scene of the security entrance to the cnn. The CN Tower.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[State Farm Announcer]

I just a mix of I can't believe this is happening. And also he needs to cut a hole in his pants. Like the X explanation and is so weird and funny. And also, as you know, the jackass of it all is like very apparent, a magical chemistry. I really, I really enjoyed it. But it is like the big and the little simultaneously that make it so exciting.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I totally agree.

[Adam Naiman]

When they made Operation Avalanche, famously, they like, kind of broke into NASA. And like, not just the characters, but the filmmakers, there's always a kind of one to one ratio between, like, what the characters get away with and their crew gets away with and with the actual actors and crew get away with because there's really no distance between them. I think the difference now is in the past, they would have to lie and prevaricate and cheat to get into these places. And now they can do that and then CGI themselves doing something impossible. Like that's. That's putting the money on screen while still hiding it a little bit. But I mean, in Operation Avalanche, the thing I think of as a Canadian viewer, you know, I've written about the this before, when that movie came out, he doesn't just break into NASA. I mean, he films himself mad at one point as Matt Johnson shaking hands with Stanley Kubrick. Which is not just a good joke about John, about Kubrick faking the moon landing. That's really forward thing for Canadian filmmaker to do. We have this kind of cinematic inferiority complex here where it's like we either sneak into the American pipeline or we assume that Americans don't care. A couple of years ago, you know, they did a list of the best Canadian films of all time and because they were worried people wouldn't read it, they put like Titanic on it because technically James Cameron is from here. You know, I mean, I mean, Denis Villeneuve's not a Canadian filmmaker anymore either. So you have, you know, there's a lot of cultural baggage that we're talking about here. But within Toronto, the stuff you're talking about, they were doing this stuff forever. But the CN Tower represents the leveling up of where they're trying to break into these days. You know, it's a wonderful metaphor for the vertical integration of their project. It's like, well, at this point it's not enough to just like, you know, sneak into some alt weekly office, you know, they got to breach the CN Tower.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's funny. Yeah. I think the whole thing is an escalation in so many ways. I think there's also something really, really clever about the time travel quality of the story. These two guys who are trying to play a show are always hatching schemes to attempt to get booked at the Rivoli. And by some magical orbits infused circumstance, they both travel back in time to 2008. And that allows them to, to explore how our social mores have changed over that time and what we would accept and not accept. There's a lot of great, really obvious, but very clever visual sight gags that feature figures who are no longer welcome in acceptable society these days. The Hangover gag in particular is kind of amazing because it's a reminder that 2008 is actually not that far away. And that joke and that being the inciting incident for Matt's character to have the dawning realization is just like, I can't remember the last time I laughed so hard in a movie.

[Adam Naiman]

I'm torn because, and I've talked to Matt about this, I'm not going to say who it was, but there's a well known Canadian media personality who was at a screening of the Hangover in 2008 for real, which I was at because I reviewed that from one of those alt weeklies where you see the boxes turned over in the movies, they identify 2008 by the fact that there's an overturned now magazine box. And I used to. I used to. I used to write for the other Toronto alt weekly. Anyway, there was an early screening of the Hangover where that joke that you're referring to was laughed at for about five straight minutes by a. In real time, you know, by a character, by a media figure who's like a paragon of progressive virtue in Canada. And at the time, I was like, give me a break. And seeing that joke in the movie, I had to ask myself, I was like, were they at that screening was Matt Johnson or what the producer, you know, at that same screening? Because it's so specific the way they use 2008 joke, 2008, to tell jokes about that period and this one, and I'm going to levy a little criticism here, analysis without actually saying the joke themselves. It's very slippery. They kind of let the period tell the joke. They still want to tell the joke. They're just letting the period tell it. But it's very funny, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

So when I talked to Matt, I didn't ask him as many questions. And I know you spoke to him, too, and I thought you guys had a great interview and I used some of the things that you spoke about in it. But when I spoke to him, I didn't ask him, like, how'd you get up in the CN Tower? It wasn't really about. I wasn't. I was more interested in what I think Adam is describing, which is the kind of edgelord quality that is infused in the Nirvana project, where they're sort of like, kind of, if you look at the show too, in the past, always kind of nosing up to the edge of what is going to be socially comfortable. And Matt, I thought, was very insightful about that and why he explores it and why he's interested in it and why. It's almost like this act of reexamining what they made 20 years ago by making a movie about going back 20 years ago. But they can use the other cultural artifacts that are exposed in the movie to show, like, maybe this is why what I did back then was kind of like that, because this is kind of what comedy was. Or this is what, to some people, this was a good idea. Again, a very kind of labyrinthine psychological concept inside of a dopey movie about time travel that I think is really, really successful. The other thing that is sort of metatextual in that way that I love, is that Jay McCarroll, who. This is really his movie. He's really the star of this movie in many ways. He is a musician in real life. He's a composer. He's written film scores. He's worked with Matt for years on film scores. And he's a pop musician, too. And he has managed to, like, retrofit music that he wrote in the past to show how he could be a pop star in this alternate reality that is portrayed in the movie. And they use one of the songs that he wrote in 2014. And now I just looked at that song on Spotify, and it has like 10 million streams. And I'm like, I wonder how that happened. Like, the whole thing is such a clever Jenga tower of reconstruction of their lives.

[Adam Naiman]

His fake weekend song. I love that Jay writes a song that would have, like, you know, he, like, beat the Weeknd to the punch by, like, three years for that kind of production. I mean, Jay, Matt thinks that the movie is not. He agrees with you. Not just that, Jay, but I mean, that Jay's the main character and that Jay's dilemma is being yoked to this person who cannot shut off. Right. You know, and I think, what must

[Sean Fennessy]

that be like for you? Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

Which one of you is the Matt and which one of you is the.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, come on.

[Adam Naiman]

Is the J? But. But I should say for the people who are, you know, learning about these small Canadian movies through, you know, Netflix, the Dirty's. I don't know if you guys have watched it or watched it recently.

[Sean Fennessy]

I've seen it. Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

It's a very troubling movie because it's really close to some of the stuff that Sean's talking about. I mean, it's close to it in a way where it's not mediated by cuteness or by nostalgia or by jokes. I mean, it's really about an aggressive strain in male cinephilia that's not attractive, and that can manifest in incredibly ugly ways. And I say that's a compliment to the movie. The highest compliment I can pay to it is even after 10 years of Matt's stuff, you know, here in Toronto, I watched the Dirties last fall at U of T. He came into the screening of it, and I was watching it going, it's quite a frightening movie. I mean, it's good and it's funny, but it's not nice, you know, and it's very interesting to consider with each iteration of Nirvana, the band, the show, as they're getting more self Reflexive. Is it also kind of gentrifying themselves, too? Because they're recreating their early 20s and this cheap Jack way of doing it with more and more resource. And that'll probably drive them crazy to have people say that, because I think by a lot of standards, this is still a small movie. And when you're opening in the US against, you know, project Hail Mary or something, this movie is like something you hold up on a toothpick. But it's not the same thing as when they were truly broke making this show. But, man, for people in Toronto, that show was legitimately a big deal, and now it's not available on any streaming service.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know it sounds like that's going to change based on that.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah, I'm sure it will. But, people. But my social media feed in the last three weeks, it's all clips from the show. I know, and I promise you I'm not looking for them. I've seen this already. I don't need to see it again. But it's.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, there's even like a wonderful thing in the movie where if you haven't seen the show, it doesn't really matter, but there's a sequence when they go back into the past, then they go to encounter their younger selves, or they don't purposefully encounter them, but they go back to that apartment to get something that they need.

[State Farm Announcer]

It's a box of orbits.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, a box of Orbits, which is super powerful. And they're hiding in their own closet at the time. And through the closet, you can hear them doing bits from episodes of the show. You know, like the video game song that Jay sings, which is, like, iconic on the show. But just to give you 20 seconds of that in the movie is fan service. But it's also a reflection of this whole arc of creativity that they had together. I think all that stuff is really wonderful. What you're saying is really interesting, too, which is like, Matt now. I heard a rumor about a gig that Matt interviewed for 18 months ago, and I was like, wow, that would be quite an elevation. He didn't actually get that job. And I don't even know if it was really true. I didn't ask him, but he's. He just made a movie about Anthony Bourdain for a 24. And now the next movie he's making is an adaptation of Magic the Gathering, the card game that is. That is. He's now really on the kind of step ladder of Hollywood ascension. Those are two big steps, and they're very different. They're going to be very different, I presume, from what he has done previously. So we did talk a bit about that, but I'm so interested in where he goes.

[State Farm Announcer]

Do you feel betrayed by that, Adam?

[Adam Naiman]

No, but I mean, it's business as usual, right? I mean, the Canadian Film center was founded by Norman Jewison, and Norman Jewison won an Academy Award for Best Picture for In the Heat of the Night, which has nothing to do with Canada. It's about American race relations. The filmmakers who've stayed close to home have done so either out of excessive pride or practicality or some combination thereof. I'm contractually mandated to mention David Cronenberg, you know, who's a filmmaker who made it work, even with international money making movies here. But all these Canadian filmmakers get tempted towards Hollywood. Some of them like it, you know, some of them don't. And I think Johnson is someone who, with BlackBerry, that's the movie where this all seemed possible. I have a standard for certain kinds of movies where I'm like, what does a normal person think of them? And our definitions for normal people might change. But, you know, I know a lot of abnormal people, and I also know a lot of normal people. I have a pretty normal life outside of my movie writing. And I would ask normal people, like friends, parents, you know, or other moms or dads in the playground, be like, you guys watch BlackBerry? Like, oh, yeah, I saw that. And that's because the Matt Johnson ness of that movie is compartmentalized into Matt's own performance.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Adam Naiman]

Which has less than nothing to do with the story of BlackBerry, but because there's a cipher in that company. No, the whole story of the way they make movies and the BlackBerry is a startup. Those two things are allegories for each other. But like, Jay Baruchel was playing a kind of real person, and Glenn Howerton, who is dead friggin brilliant in that movie, is playing a version of Jim Balsilli. Matt's just there because that's what he does. And it's funny, he can't do that with Anthony Bourdain, you know, he can't do that with a prestige drama or something. So that's what I'm wondering is how will we let go? Or how will he let go? Like, is there going to be a Matt Johnson Magic the Gathering character? I know, but another project he's working on, which I won't talk about, which also has this possibility for sort of, you know, bridging these things. This is what I wonder, because I can't think of too many other Canadian filmmakers who are as visible as he is in the work. I can't think of too many filmmakers, period.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Adam Naiman]

God forbid. Like, who are we talking about? Are we talking about Jerry Lewis? You know, I mean, it's like quite. It's really essential to the work. And I wonder at a certain point if that's going to bump up against some practical thing of like, you can't do this anymore.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

Or you do it in perpetuity.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, it's like Woody Allen or like Melvin Van Peebles. Like, there's like a very short list of people who are like, the way that they look and communicate, organizes and informs what the movie is. And a lot tours don't have that. I'm so interested in Tony. I'm fascinated. And you know, it sounds like that was a complicated movie in some ways. And he did talk about it a little bit, but just for him to not be in the movie representing his point of view and his energy is different. But, you know, I'm just so happy that people are seeing this movie and that they like it and that it is, you know, you've given us this wonderful gift. Once again, Canada has blessed American movie audiences. We salute Canada. We will annex you soon, but otherwise we salute you.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah, we've. We've been feeling really great about the relationship lately. The Olympics were really the chair. The Olympics were really the. They were, they were. They were the. You, You've. You've not lived until you've been waiting like on a pool deck while your kid is doing or doing swimming lessons and 18 moms and dads are watching the hockey game on their phone. And just collectively you just hear, fuck, it was great.

[Sean Fennessy]

Just everybody in my household, I gotta

[State Farm Announcer]

tell you, 7:53 in the morning, we needed that.

[Adam Naiman]

But yeah, I think I'm always interested in how these things that wear their Torontonian ness on their sleeve get received. And this seems to be a successful incursion. This is like a backdoor entry into taking over some version of the Hollywood film cultural establishment.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. And I mean, designed to be an instant cult classic. Right. It's not going to make $100 million or anything. No.

[State Farm Announcer]

But even as I was just looking around today of where it's showing, and it is, you know, at a. At my favorite theaters here in Los Angeles, but also like the Music Box in Chicago and the Coolidge in Boston and all of these, like the other, like, great local community, like, vibes theaters across the US where we've done events and where you Know, it's like, well, what real ones know to go see what's at that. So it. It is definitely. It's very, very highly rated on letterboxd.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, yeah.

[State Farm Announcer]

It's found its people.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

Hypothetical Toronto walking tour with you guys. If you ever deign to visit here, you know, I'll show you all the spots. I'll be like. And that's the place where they also didn't get in somewhere. That's also the most Torontonian moment in the whole movie, of course, is when he runs across the raccoon and freaks out.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, I wrote that down in the notes. Watching that the second time is so fucking funny.

[Adam Naiman]

Well. Cause there's a great. There's a movie by someone who's collaborated with mat a lot. KZYK Ravinsky in his first film, Tower. It's the only movie in history that builds to a confrontation with a raccoon. And it's like, you know, Nirvana only has the raccoon as a kind of throwaway moment. But, you know, they filmed the Resident Evil movies here. You know, Paul W.S. anderson, Milla Jovovich were often seen in Toronto because Resident Evil was set in Raccoon City and Toronto, you know, but also the movie that hasn't come up on this pod that I just want to mention maybe in closing or in passing. I mean, it is so funny how close this movie is to Scott Pilgrim, to the point where they are actually traveling back to roughly when Scott Pilgrim was happening.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

Because indie rock and that. Indie rock, insular culture, and particularly the critique of the. The whiteness of it and the edge lordiness of it. If you're going to give the movie the benefit of the doubt where it's not just symptomatic, but it's like a critique. That's the way Scott Pilgrim looks 15 years later, too. And I think that there's a great piece to be written or a great series of thoughts to be had about the dialogue that those movies are having. I don't mean that Scott Pilgrim's an influence, but I can't think of the two things separately. Maybe because Scott Pilgrim was the last time that a global audience had Toronto shoved down their throat. Totally.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's what it is.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is such a deeply Canadian movie, and we don't get a lot of those through the Hollywood system. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com TheBigPicture Terms and Conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Walt Disney World Resort, the most magical place on Earth. Imagine a world of culinary capers in Remy's Ratatouille Adventure. Or a world of mystical rivers and flying banshees in Pandora. The world of Avatar. Or a world of dazzling lights under the stars in an all new nighttime parade. Disney starlight dream the night away. Well, you don't have to imagine it. You can live it. Because infinite worlds await at Walt Disney world Resort. Visit disneyworld.com to learn more and discover a world of magic this summer across all four theme parks. Adam, what a delight to see you. When will you be back on the show?

[Adam Naiman]

I don't know. When will I be back on the show? I wait by the phone for you.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you want to talk about? What is it you want to say to the people?

[Adam Naiman]

What is it I want to say to the people? I'm so grumpy. I want to talk about whether the Raptors are going to get home court in the playoffs. I would love to talk further about Toronto. Who knows if that will happen. Happen. I look, I look. I'm around.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm around. We'll see. Maybe we will at some point in the future. Fingers crossed, Adam. Thank you so much. You can read adam on the ringer.com and in many other places and you can hear him on this pod. I don't know. We're going to find some really good topics soon.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah. And you know, you guys take, take care of yourselves. Nice to see you guys.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Congrats on all the Netflix, Adam.

[Adam Naiman]

Bye. Bye.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, let's go now to my conversation with Matt Johnson. Back by popular demand, Matt Johnson. So it's three, not quite three years ago when I saw you. Yeah. And as I just said to you, one of the most requested return guests in the history of the show. I think people were touched, moved, thrilled, amused by your last chat about BlackBerry. And you're here for a movie that started as an inside joke. And I've heard so many people ask you, how did you make the movie? But I don't know if I've heard too many people ask you why you made the movie.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah. Which is. It's funny. The secret of everything is behind that, because right after you and I had spoke, it was like. It was really my first time being in Los Angeles where people were talking about that film, which also was a small Canadian. The fire alarm went off.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was warned of this.

[Chris Ryan]

Zara Larson is shooting a music video

[Sean Fennessy]

and they're using a fog machine.

[Chris Ryan]

There's not an actual fire.

[Sean Fennessy]

We should leave this in the episode. Seriously, Zara Marson. Damn you, Zara.

[Matt Johnson]

You couldn't have picked a better name. But that.

[Sean Fennessy]

That.

[Matt Johnson]

The success that came from that. I think I was, for the first time faced with, like, the opportunity to make movies in Hollywood. And I was so maybe not worried, but I kind of felt, you know this German term. Torchlush, panic. No, it's an amazing. An amazing. The Germans had this great, great ability to combine a bunch of different words to create a new kind of idea. And what it means, it translates to gate closing panic. And it's the type of fear that you only feel when an opportunity is about to be gone forever. It's like the feeling of rushing towards a door before it closes. And I was feeling that about being able to do something completely on my own where. Where I was in charge of it all and could do essentially anything. And so I was like, okay, maybe this is my last chance to make a movie where I make it only with my friends, only in Toronto, and we do whatever we want. And so I took the opportunity to make Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie, as opposed to doing something else.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's funny because I feel like the instinct of most people would be, I have to race toward the gate closing on my big Hollywood movie and not, I'm gonna stay local, stay personal, make that choice that you like. What do you think informs that?

[Matt Johnson]

I think the fact that I had been making movies in Canada for so long that there wasn't. There was no novelty behind the opportunity of doing a bigger movie. And I don't mean to say that I was inured to it because I'd been offered so many opportunities. I'd been offered zero. But I was like, well, I've been making movies for no money, by myself, with my few friends for whatever, 15 years. It's not like another year of people waiting to make a movie with me is going to change do you know what I mean? I think a lot of filmmakers that I know specifically are so in their own heads that even the opportunities they do get given take 2, 3, 4 years to manifest anyway. So also, I mean, the truth is, I thought it was going to take me, like, two and a half months to make this movie, and it took two years. So that is another big thing with.

[Sean Fennessy]

It was a factor. I know that BlackBerry had some American financing in it and this movie didn't. Right. This movie was entirely Canadian. So was that a factor too, of like kind of going back to just that stock?

[Matt Johnson]

No, I just knew that it would be impossible to pitch this movie to anybody.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Matt Johnson]

I mean, you've seen it, and I think there's a kind of survivor bias with it where you watch it and you're like, oh, yeah, this is marketable in a way. Like, I can see giving this, like, a few hundred thousand dollars to make, but before it's done, it really is like trying to, like, buy a jar of chaos. Like, how am I supposed to pitch this movie to you?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, okay, so I want to pitch something to you then. So I just. I wrote this down last night as I was thinking about what you guys have been doing together. And so, like, it's kind of an aesthetic semiotic question around this project. So there seems to be some concern, and I've gotten this even just from people who have heard me talking the movie up, that the uninitiated seeing the movie might be confused about what it is. Right. That, like, the context of the web series or the TV show, if you haven't seen it, you're gonna be confused. But the movie works, I think. Cause you and Jay are not just charming and the movie's not just really entertaining and well made, but it's like you're using archetype comedy characters that are so instantaneously legible in the first scene that it's like, I know exactly what this is, and it doesn't matter if you don't have that context. Do you agree with that?

[Matt Johnson]

I'll take this a big step further. I think the movie is twice as effective on people who have no idea what's happened before. My experience is that fans who see the movie love it, but they always have a kind of. But you guys really went crazier in the TV show, which of course we did, because I'm on a tiny network in Canada and it's television, so the same rules don't apply. I think that the ideal situation for this movie is watching it from A place of complete ignorance, being like, how did this ever happen? There's more layers that you have to crash through. Whereas if you've seen the show or you know anything, even if you've seen BlackBerry, I think it gives you a bit of a nod to the. Not the surreality of it, but to the way these characters speak. I think Jay and I specifically. But in all my films, 90% of the comedy is the intonation of the English language. Like, I find that funnier than almost anything. And so if you've just never been exposed to that in this type of work, then I think you're really being like, whoa, what is this? But I'll address your point directly. Yes. Jay and I are basically playing versions of adults in the way that children think of adults, right? Like, whenever I'm thinking of dravon and the band, I always. That image of brain from Pinky in the Brain when he gets inside the robot of the president's suit, like, that's really what this is. If Calvin and Hobbes could put on adult clothes and go out and have an adventure, that's what it is. And so that archetype that you're talking about is so fun to play in because this is the way prepubescent boys see adulthood. Our band's gonna get a show. Well, how do we do it? Well, we've gotta trick them. Well, we've gotta climb up the big tower in the city. Well, we've gotta lie to everybody, because, of course, we're kids. They're never gonna let us go do it for real. Like, we're six years old. And so I think that without ever stating that, it makes it so that the audience gets it without even needing to. I heard somebody say something so great. Nirvana, the band, the show is. It's the kind of movie that you cannot explain, but if you watch two minutes of it, you could write your own episode, right? And that sums it up beautifully.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you and Jay intellectualize it in this way when you're coming up with ideas?

[Matt Johnson]

No, not at all.

[Sean Fennessy]

You are uniquely articulate about the process, and you're willing to engage with. With complex intellectual questions about what you've made, this very silly, fun movie that you've made. But it does feel like sometimes you've really labored over something, and other times it feels like you just thought it would be fun and you just did it.

[Matt Johnson]

I don't know that there's any difference between those two things because. Well, one, it's not like we are. I heard this great Quote, I forget who said it, but work that's trying to be clever first often sabotages itself. You wind up getting hamstrung by the fact that you tried to lead with clever. And so it's not like my friends and I are sitting in a room being like, okay, so what would be, like, a smart way to do this? Really, the process, as silly as it seems, is like we're all trying to remember the same dream we had. Like, that's how all the writing happens. We're like, oh, it'll be a time travel movie where we go back to 2008, and then we change something and then the future is different. And that's like the beginning idea. And then somebody would be like, oh, and in the future, Jay's famous. And then everybody in the room just goes, yes, that is what happened. Not that's what should happen. It's as though we're remembering a dream we had the night before. And that's every single detail of it. So it's not like we're saying, oh, that's so smart. It just. It just all feels right. Which is, again, getting into this archetype

[Sean Fennessy]

thing you brought up, it's really interesting. You called movies and American religion recently in an interview, which I'm obsessed with. And it's certainly how I view them and how kind of how I've organized my life in many ways. And I was wondering how you filtered that through the movie. There's the obvious, like, back to the future aspect of it. But what about the other ways you thought about that concept inside the movie?

[Matt Johnson]

Well, one, in the same way that religious language was, it's. It's funny to think of it this way, but was pop culture throughout most of human history, where when you would talk with people, when you read old books, oftentimes they are quoting or relating things to scripture casually in conversation with one another. Because it was the kind of common culture. Everybody knew it. Everybody knew like you. Have you seen that Star Trek episode, Dharmak and Jalad at Tanagra? Have you heard this?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know.

[Matt Johnson]

You'd love it. I'll teach it to you in a second. So Captain Picard is sent to a planet, and you know how they have the universal translator where everybody can speak the same language? It doesn't matter. Well, he's on a planet with this alien creature, and they are both speaking English, but the guy that he's with only speaks idiomatically, so the things that he's saying are intelligible, but it's all idioms from his own culture, so no translator can get through them. It doesn't matter what Picard says. They don't understand each other because this guy's talking an idiom. And the episode is about Picard learning the idiomatic history of his culture so that they can talk to one another. And anyway, that's what the Bible was to us. And so the idea that now instead we have all of these movies that we quote has totally replaced that. And so these characters in Nirvana, the band, again, this isn't the kind of thing that my friends and I talk about. In a million years, we wouldn't. It would be like. But it's not interesting, really, to us. But that's what these guys are doing. They're kind of speaking in the new religious language. That's why the movie is about Back to the Future. And they're talking about Back to the Future as though it is in the way that a kid thinks that the Force is real. Back to the Future time travel is real to these guys so long as they can get their toys to move in the right way.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think that that is just a micro generational experience or something that has legs?

[Matt Johnson]

It's funny. As you walk around in Los Angeles, you'll notice that a lot of the old movie theaters are being converted into churches. And so, who knows? Maybe it's going back, but the references may change. But again, it's exactly like that Star Trek episode. We have no choice. We are going to speak in the stories of our culture, and that's never going to change. In fact, I think it's a tragedy that in some ways that we all don't have to sit and watch the same TV channels like we used to when I was a kid, because even if those shows were bad or even if, like, it didn't matter, it was so great having this, like, common muck that we could all make inside jokes about to one another.

[Sean Fennessy]

Mm. I feel like the show and the film and a lot of what you've made is kind of, like, bound by nostalgia, not defined by nostalgia. And a lot of what you're describing here is how much of it is the affection we have for things that we experienced at a young age and maybe can't even really see clearly because of the time that we saw them. Is there any part of you that was, like, worried about that? Because the film is kind of about that, right? About going back to a time when things seemed more innocent or more fun or more possible, more open?

[Matt Johnson]

Well, you're just Describing childhood for everybody.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Matt Johnson]

Like if we were here with somebody who was born in 1950, they would feel as though they had more options in terms of what they could do when they were a kid than when they were in their 30s too. I think that that's a universal feeling that I don't know if it's going to go anywhere again. It's sad that we don't have the same universal references, but it's strange. I've done so many Q&As for this film now and it's like people who are 19 and 20 years old are watching this movie being like, oh my God, it was so great. I love all the references. And so, I mean, how do you explain that? Like there's a, there's a big 911 reference that. I mean, I suppose it's such a major cultural moment, but like, we thought that would only be funny to people who had lived through it.

[Sean Fennessy]

So.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah, I don't know, but that's a hard question to answer because I'm not an anthropologist. Like, I have no idea how these things work.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know, but I feel like you're kind of doing that work, even if it's not academically, by making these projects like they do seem like these kind of socio historical explorations of yourself.

[Matt Johnson]

Well, I am very interested in the things that I went through when I was a kid and I'll keep making movies about it until I. I don't even mean to like BlackBerry. My favorite part of that film is in the 90s when I'm in that engineering room with those other guys. Like, I look at that and I'm like, that is what my childhood was like. I wish I could live in that world. And. And obviously black. I mean, Nirvana, the band, the show is exactly that. It's me recreating the sleepover culture that I had when I was a little boy. But I don't have an intention behind it other than to say that I'm attracted to those things.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right, yeah. As I've talked to so many filmmakers over the years, last time Greta Gerg was on the show, I was like, okay, so you made Lady Bird a movie about your adolescence, then your favorite

[Matt Johnson]

toy, then your favorite book, and then

[Sean Fennessy]

your favorite toy and then your favorite book and Little Women and your other favorite book, Little Women. So it's like all of these explorations of coming of age girlhood, that's what a lot of your stories are about. And she was like, I hadn't thought about that. You know, common interviewer question, though. Of just, like, trying to find centrality thematically around what you do. And you're kind of describing something similar but not intentional. Just like, this is how I feel.

[Matt Johnson]

But what's intent? Like, why do you love somebody? Like, why do two people look at a painting and one person says, I love. The other says, I hate it. Would you call that intent? I mean, that's just. That's the. That's the. That's the soul you were given, in a way. Right. I don't pick my eyes.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think I'm looking for the middle ground between neuroses and artistic intention, you know, or sort of like the things you keep getting drawn to. Back to why? Like, looking into why that happens.

[Matt Johnson]

Well, I mean, I think the best feeling I get, either when we're writing something, my friends and I together, or when I'm watching a movie. It's not where I'm, like, laughing hysterically or when I, like, love something. It's when a little light in my head goes on and says, that's true. Oh, that's true. Like, I watch a movie. Like, I like. I mean, pick anything. Like, I'm watching the movie Whiplash, and I'm seeing all this terrible stuff, and I go, yeah, that's true. That's real. And when I say that's real, I mean it's. It doesn't matter that it didn't happen. Yep, it's real.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yep. And not just authentic, although it does feel authentic. But you're like, it's happening right now before me. I know exactly what you mean when you say that. Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

And I think that that is, again, strangely, the connection with it and religion.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's this.

[Matt Johnson]

I mean, this Carl Jung idea where I forget what the word for it is. It might be synchronicity, even though that word now is talking about, like, computers taking over reality, where the fiction world and the real world touch. It's like these magic moments where you see something and it is fake, but it's also real. Right. I think the example he uses is like, the story of Jesus, where it's like, a fictional story. Everybody acts like it's real. So how do you explain that? And those types of moments I see all the times in movies. Werner Herzog's a master of this, and they animate me in a way that I can't explain. And so for me to think of the intent behind my own movies is impossible because I have no idea why I'm drawn to certain things. I remember I saw the Orson Welles film F for fake. And I'm sitting there watching it on a tiny computer. I forget who'd shown it to me. And I was like, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life. How have I never heard of it? I feel like it was made just for me. Like it was meant for me and it was meant for me to steal from it. It was like literally instructions for me. And when you find something like that, everybody has these experiences, but, yeah, I guess I just. I run after them.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a coherent touchstone because I feel like a lot of people have been desperately trying to explain or make comparisons for what the this new movie is. And you hear a lot of Jackass. Right. Because there's sort of real world experiential stunt quality to so much of what you're doing. Yeah, And Borat. And Borat. Yes. Well, and I think part of that is like the convulsive, like, I had no idea this was coming, feeling that the movie gives you. Right. Which was a great experience when we saw those movies in movie theaters.

[Adam Naiman]

Right.

[Matt Johnson]

A kind of chaos, out of controlness that only, in my opinion, like, America, like, look, it's no coincidence that Sacha Baron Cohen had to come to America to make that movie.

[Adam Naiman]

Right.

[Matt Johnson]

And Jackass, although they were hardcore ripping off a Canadian and Tom Green, it's still. It's like that collision with American anything goesism that really lets it take off. In fact, all three of these examples, like Jackass really is like Tom Green via America, and then Borat is literally the BBC via America. And even our movie is Canadians creating an American movie. We're remaking Back to the Future. So there's something about that that the, I want to say, like a commonwealth sensibility combined with this American freedom that gives you this feeling of, oh, this could go anywhere. Yeah. And also it's a lot of, like, culture worship. I think all three of those are basically American advertisements.

[Sean Fennessy]

They are, but they're simultaneously undermining and almost lampooning an American idea of, like, civility or comfort, you know, like by sending figures into the world who can kind of like, show you how silly and distorted some of those experiences are.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah, of course. But that's. Everything has to have an up and a down. Like, otherwise everyone would reject it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm curious about you and Jay.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So you've known each other. When did you first meet?

[Matt Johnson]

In high school, when we were just, I think in grade nine or ninth grade, as you guys would say.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, so you. It's over three decades that you've been or about three decades that you've been friends. You're directing him now in a mainstream film that is about a project that you've been doing for almost 20 years.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And you both have had individual success, and you've worked together a lot over the years as well. But Jay is really centered in the

[Matt Johnson]

movie in a way that he's antagonist.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's not in the show.

[Matt Johnson]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. And I'm curious what it's like to direct him because you get a really good performance out of him.

[Matt Johnson]

He's unbelievable.

[Sean Fennessy]

And so can you kind of talk about making sure that that happens? Doing it in the way that is, like, where you guys can trust each other. It felt different from the show.

[Matt Johnson]

Look, the word trust is the big one. I gotta give Jay all the credit here. I mean, I would direct him in as much as I would give him lines in his voice when we'd be acting together. Sometimes even on camera, you can see me giving him lines that we've. That my mouth will be moving, but no words are coming out. But I am not. I'm not directing him in the way that, let's say I was directing a movie like BlackBerry. Like, both of us are just waiting for the other one to say something interesting and then following it up. So, like, I mean, I can take very little credit for that. That's 99% Jay McCarroll, who's just become an extremely gifted thespian. And I think because he's so. Like, he really wanted to do a good job. Like, he thought about what his character was going through, and because he was on set for BlackBerry. And both of us really, really watched Glenn and Jay Baruchell. Like, we really watched them because we'd never seen real actors do anything. And the amount that they were able to do with just their faces without talking, like, they were just so disciplined. And I know that left a big impact on him. And so he was really trying to do something great. And we both knew early on that he was the protagonist of the story because he was the one who needed to change. He was the person who at the beginning was like, this life isn't working for me. And then in the last second, not to spoil anything, well, this will spoil the whole movie. But you know what I mean? And so he realized that he was going to do most of the lifting. And specifically relating to your question about mostly first audiences seeing this movie, he was going to be the person who anchored them. He is the audience. Like, when he looks at the camera and is like, this is crazy. Or when he gets convinced, it's really the audience is being convinced. And so, again, I don't want to take any credit for that. He just has a really brilliant aptitude for understanding what the real world would feel in these moments.

[Sean Fennessy]

When you say it took two years to make the movie, what do you mean by that? And how did you know when you were done?

[Matt Johnson]

We just added a new ending to the movie that's only going to be released on DVD two days ago. And I'm telling you, it changes everything. There's a scene after the credits where you get to see this will spoil it, but you get to see a scene from another angle that changes the entire movie. And I mean literally.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Matt Johnson]

It's like the creation of a supervillain.

[Sean Fennessy]

I feel comfortable talking about some details of the movie, please. Because I think, oh, yeah, most people will be serious listeners of the show will be all over this movie. They already are. The doubling.

[Matt Johnson]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

The time travel and the doubling seems very complex.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And especially for a movie at this scale. How did you do that?

[Matt Johnson]

So we were really, really lucky in. In that the movie jumps back and forth between 2025 and in 2008. And we had been shooting web series versions of this show when we were kids, basically, and we had just shot so much of it that when the idea of making a time travel movie came up, the first thing the editors, Kurt and Bobby did was just watch every single one of those DV tapes, waiting for, like, split second moments of useful story beats. And the first one they found where we were like, oh, my gosh, we can build an entire movie around this was that clip that opens the film of me next to Jay going, you know what, Jay? I think things are going to work out for us. And then. And in that same shot, you see us walk down Queen street and we turn and Jay goes, hey, does that guy look like me? And then I go, that guy? He looks like me. And we were talking about an advertisement outside of a FCUK store, but the camera pans over and then back, and then we keep walking. And when we saw that clip, it's like maybe one minute we were like, okay, we can build the entire movie around this because it answered so many questions. It's like, okay, so we saw ourselves as kids, so then what were we as adults doing there? And why were we trying to get something? And that's where we got the idea that we need to steal fuel for the time machine that would have got us there. And so we just built the whole story. Backwards out of it and everything else. Although it seems like it's like special effects is all just clever editing, it's alarmingly effective. It's one of my favorite things I've ever been a part of in my life. When you're seeing young me talk to young Jay about the meaning of life, when we're literally talking to one another through 17 years of time, and that conversation is thematically resolving the movie that these guys are trapped inside of. Yeah, it's one of those things that, as you see it, it's depressing because you're like, I will never be able to do anything like this ever again.

[Sean Fennessy]

So there's an incredible hangover joke in this movie that people love and that.

[Matt Johnson]

Which we did, which, by the way, for us was just a minor plot point. We never thought that that was going to be that big of a laugh.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think maybe American audiences and their relationships in that movie and, you know, over the years, podcasting about movies so much, we are, especially on that show, the rewatchables that we do, we go back and, like, look at the core essence of what was comedy in 2008, what was. What was acceptable or what was understood to be really funny. And that's something that's really great about what you're doing in the movie, but also kind of sort of turning it on yourself. And, like, the web series and the TV show definitely. Are these, like, kind of like Cliff's Edge of bad taste or, like, confronting what is acceptable.

[Matt Johnson]

Open edgelordism. I mean, that's really the ethos that was driving that show.

[Sean Fennessy]

Can you, like, talk about that and maybe how you feel about that now you're at this stage of your life, and even making a movie that seems to be, like, looking back at your own edgelordism, it's, you know, it's strange.

[Matt Johnson]

Again, like I said, it was sort of a means to an end. I'm talking about this hangover joke in the movie that we all just thought was a great way for the characters to realize they're in 2008. And I didn't realize that it was going to become such a. As you so deftly put it, like a true talking point around me looking at my own childhood, because so much of it I filmed, my first movie is about me as an edgelord school shooter, literally.

[Chris Ryan]

And.

[Matt Johnson]

And it's funny. It is a kind of like, millennialism that I grew up in. But I have to be honest, I'm not judgmental of it whatsoever. I actually think that for a kid, I talk from my own experience, there's something really magical about taboos. And whenever our society creates a taboo around anything, it doesn't matter what it is. Like, kids, especially naughty little boys, are going to be like, well, what happens if I do touch it? And that is somehow addictive. And it animated me in a way that I would not have made my early films if I didn't have that feeling of wanting to deal with something that was taboo. Because it's like when you're given a rule as a little kid that your parents just tell you because they're trying to make you quieter, have you stay in your room where you're like, wait a minute, is this a real rule? And what is a rule?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, I think it's sometimes correlated to ultimate bad behavior. But just because you're an edgelord doesn't mean you are doing bad behavior. But you're so close to the line of someone else who's crossing the line. And so, you know, when we talk about it on that show, at least in terms of comedy, it's literally framed by this category. What's aged the worst?

[Matt Johnson]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And the idea of paging Dr. From the Hangover, it's like, that hasn't aged well. That's not a joke you would do

[Matt Johnson]

right now in a million years. And what's so crazy is that it's not even. I mean, here I am judging comedy. I don't think judgment.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's sort of a. Like, I don't even. I'm not sure what the right way to phrase it is, because there's no clear way to communicate what's right and what's wrong. It's just like, that doesn't feel right anymore.

[Matt Johnson]

No, it doesn't. But my point was that even at its time, I don't even know that that was that great of a joke. I suppose the idea is the expectation of this guy who's a doctor, and his wife has got these high expectations for him and his friends. And then Bradley Cooper says the worst possible thing in terms of him trying to be like, no, my friends are trustworthy people. We're going away. Everything will be fine.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's kind of good character building for the Cooper character. He's the boorish asshole now, you know, he's the one who said that. At the time, we knew that. But now there are, like, I think a lot of the boundaries, and you kind of going back to your own boundaries. And even just me looking back at the web series, I'm like, wow, Matt was pushing it you know, like, this is unusual to go back and see this this way, but isn't it so crazy?

[Matt Johnson]

Because to me, I'm making that show with Jay and Jared, our cinematographer. We're making it for, like, seven people.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

Who live, like, within a mile of us.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that good, though? Do you want people to be finding it now? Is. Are you excited about that?

[Matt Johnson]

Excited, no. But I'm certainly not against it. But it's so strange because what you're watching is like a childhood project that was made in total anonymity by people who were in Canada, never thinking that anybody would ever in a million years watch this stuff. And so it's why I'm so cautious around saying, like, oh, yeah, that was so stupid, or I would never do that again because I would be lying. I think that the things that were animating me and the things that I found funny, I have to honor those things because that was me, and that child still exists inside me. So, yeah, I'm sorry, I have no choice.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know that you and your lawyer have become very good friends and samurais in the face of Fair Use.

[Matt Johnson]

Yes. He literally wrote. Somebody came to a screening last night with the textbook that he's learning in law school with my lawyer's name on it called something, and Fair Use literally wrote the book on it.

[Sean Fennessy]

So I have a little bit of experience in this realm, but it does seem like you guys have figured out some dark arts in order to pull off what you pull off. And I think part of the thrill of the movie is how are they getting away with this as a feeling that you have while watching the movie? That is so exciting. So what is the process? When do you know you've gone too far because it's a creative act and you're making something? So how does he help you figure out what you can and can't do?

[Matt Johnson]

It's, I think, the opposite of what people think. I think people imagine that BlackBerry is a good example, that we would go film it and then show it to our lawyer and be like, is this okay? It's the exact opposite. In this, it would be like, okay, so we're making a Back to the Future parody. Here's all the reasons that I think that this is important to the story that I would write. And then Chris Perez would then look at my reasoning behind justifying these parodies and be like, okay, yes, I believe this. I believe that your artistic license to tell a story about this is going to justify its use. And then we just do that for every single piece of copywritten material in the movie where it's kind of like going back to high school where you need to create a coherent argument as to why you, as a storyteller, need this and only this. And we do it way before we shoot anything.

[Sean Fennessy]

Have you heard anything from the Zemeckis camp?

[Matt Johnson]

I mean, I wish, but no. Not only nothing from the Zemeckis camp. In all of my time making all of these movies, from the 30s to the TV show to BlackBerry, which has got more fair use in it, arguably, than this movie, we've never heard anything from anyone.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that a good or a bad thing? That's great.

[Matt Johnson]

That's what you want.

[Sean Fennessy]

But you don't wanna get the letter. That's like, I saw your movie and I loved it. That's also a thing you sometimes hear.

[Matt Johnson]

You know what? Those letters don't go to me. I don't get those letter.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're getting one right now. Sure. You've been asked a lot of questions about some of the how stuff. As I mentioned, how you pulled off so many sequences. Is there one that you have not been asked about or are really proud of that you want to talk about?

[Matt Johnson]

That's a great question. It's funny. I'm trying to think of something that's in the film that for us, the hardest thing to shoot. And although it doesn't seem that impressive when you see it is there's a scene in the movie at the very, very beginning, in the first 10 minutes, when I go up to a girl outside the Sky Dome, and I. Oh, yeah, outside of the Sky Dome, the CN Tower. And I say, hey, is this the line to get into the Edgewalk? And she goes, yeah, I think so. And I go, okay, great, because I need to jump off of it. And then she gives this look like, oh, my gosh, really? And then I say, thank you very much. Goodbye. And then we leave. And it's a totally innocuous moment. And then in the third act of the film because time loops perfectly, you see, Jay and I walk. Now I'm covered in climbing ropes and he's pushing a wheelbarrow full of extension cords. And we see the same girl in the same spot wearing the same clothes. And I say, oh, my gosh, I remember you. You're the girl from Brazil. And she goes, what? Like, she looks at me and she's like. With this look of, you're insane. And I go, oh, my gosh, that's right. I've never met you before in my life. And she goes, no. And I go, okay, goodbye. And then I climb up the CN Tower. And that was easily one of the hardest things to shoot. It was next to impossible. We shot it 20 times with 20 different people. Could never get it to work. And in the movie it goes by in a split second. I don't think anybody even really knows.

[Sean Fennessy]

So memorable. I saw the movie in November and I can see her in my mind's eye.

[Matt Johnson]

She's incredible.

[Sean Fennessy]

But okay, so how do you land on people like that? I think that's something about the kind of like in the real world experiential aspect of the film.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

The right person. Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

The Safdie style street cast thing where you're like, okay, yeah, this person's got the magic.

[Sean Fennessy]

Ah.

[Matt Johnson]

I mean, Toronto is full of travelers, which makes it great. And we approach interesting looking people and interesting people approach us. So how do we decide? I don't know. That much decision gets made in that case. She was in the right place at the right time and we had shot that thing so many times with so many different people over and over and over again and had to do that switch so quickly because in real life, me asking her the first question into the second question needed to take place within a span of 30 seconds.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it is like, did you guys have wonder shows in Canada?

[Matt Johnson]

Have you ever seen one huge influencer?

[Sean Fennessy]

You mentioned Tom Green. There's wonder shows and there's a couple things where I'm just like, only a rare breed of comic mind knows how to do this. Knows how to find the right. I mean, obviously this is something Sacha Baron Cohen is expert at too, but it's a very memorable aspect of the movie itself. Can we talk a little bit about getting the Hollywood water bottle tour that you went on and your experiences in your career kind of adjacent to this? Because a lot of filmmakers who make films that are critically acclaimed and have small but passionate audiences usually get funneled right into the system. You start taking the agency tours and you start going to the studios and they want you to do something and

[Matt Johnson]

then they just find anything that fits and that's what you do pretty much.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right. And so I know, I know you're making an A24 movie. I know you're making more after that as well. Like, can you just give me from your perspective what that experience was and is like?

[Matt Johnson]

I think everybody's different. It's hard to totalize that. I don't know how in a sentence to describe.

[Sean Fennessy]

Were you excited to be doing those conversations? Were you scared?

[Matt Johnson]

No, I Wasn't scared. Here's what I think. All filmmaking comes down to is do you have true enthusiasm for something?

[Sean Fennessy]

Right?

[Matt Johnson]

And I mean, you, the creator, do you have enthusiasm for something? And is that enthusiasm transferable to somebody else in a way where you can tell they're getting it? And so in some ways, Jay told me this quote about bike riding. He says you, the more you learn how to ride a bike, it doesn't get any easier. You just go faster. And that I think is really deeply true about filmmaking, which is that it feels like exactly the same as trying to pitch my friends or trying to pitch just Jay on an episode of our web series. It's identical. And so the process, it doesn't feel any different other than I'm talking with strangers and oftentimes we don't see things the same way. But it's so great because if you don't, you can't lose. It's like, okay, I want to make this movie. And they're like, I don't really see it that way. It's a great

[Sean Fennessy]

buy. Yeah. You're such an articulate and smart interviewee. So I wonder if you are. Are you like a dynamo in the room? Is every like, this is awesome, or did you find like doors getting slammed in your face? What was it like?

[Matt Johnson]

No, that's. You'd have to ask somebody else who is in one of those rooms. I can't talk about, like, how would I know?

[Chris Ryan]

Know?

[Matt Johnson]

I know that I've never been at a pitch meeting for something and that I wanted to do and it didn't get made literally, literally ever. But I think that has something to do with the fact that it's not like I've got a thousand different movie ideas. And I'm like, let's do this. Like, if I'm going to talk about something, it's because I am like, oh, it feels true. It feels like it should get made. And here's what's amazing. I think there's some cynicism around Hollywood around like executives or studios that they have some kind of design or like, basically that they have an agenda beyond they love movies and they're waiting to meet somebody else who loves movies so they can make a movie together. That's been exclusively my experience that people are excited by something that is new or that seems uncynical and they want to do anything they can to make it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think that's self selecting? Because you make a very particular kind of thing. It's quite possible if they located you, then maybe that indicates something about what they're interested in.

[Matt Johnson]

I'm sure that's 100% true. And so it's why I can't give a universal opinion on this, but it's just been my experience.

[Sean Fennessy]

What was your experience like making a movie that was not in the very specific orbit of your personal experience? It was extreme.

[Matt Johnson]

Oh, well, I've never done that.

[Sean Fennessy]

When you mean.

[Matt Johnson]

You mean you're talking about the Anthony Bourdain movie. I mean, that movie is. I decided to make that movie because of the actor Dominic Sessa. He and I met and we realized that we saw that period of life, like 19, 20 years old, leaving home, trying to find an identity for somebody who was young and lied a lot. We had a very similar experience. So that's an extremely personal movie. So it's not like. But do you mean what's it like making a movie outside of the system that I have in Toronto with all strangers?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Matt Johnson]

That was extremely cool. Complicated.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

That was a very. That was a very difficult time in my life.

[Sean Fennessy]

I wondered because you make things so specifically and so personally and you have, like, hacked the system in a way to do things in your own way.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah. By making them with a small group of people in Canada. Yeah. So that was a real splash of cold water. It turned out amazing. And I met incredible friends. Michael Bauman was my cinematographer, who is a dear friend. I mean, I can't say enough about this guy. He's a genius. But that took a lot of getting used to because I didn't have a single Canadian with me. Not one of my friends got to come.

[Sean Fennessy]

What was the difference between not having any Canadians then?

[Matt Johnson]

It was crazy, man. It was like I was making a movie on another planet.

[Sean Fennessy]

What's the defining character, though? Like, what explains the difference between the two?

[Matt Johnson]

If I can answer that, I could write a book about it. I have no idea. But it's like, it's. Well, you know where it starts. Americans don't take off their shoes when they go in the house. And somehow from.

[Sean Fennessy]

We do. In my house. You do? We do.

[Matt Johnson]

Oh, that's beautiful. And I'm not judging them because of course, like, why not? This is your country. Do what you want. And I mean that deeply.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is there some sort of politeste that is. That is lacking? Is that what you're saying?

[Matt Johnson]

I don't know what it is. There's a kind of like.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

I think that somebody once said about Toronto. Toronto feels like every single person in the city is like just trying to keep to Themselves. Because the city they know that they're visiting doesn't matter who you are. You feel like you're a visitor there, and you're like, okay, yeah, I gotta be polite. Cause I'm just visiting here in New York. Everybody owns New York. This is my city. Get out of my way. This is mine. Like, you know what I mean? This is my kingdom. And so I think that that describes the difference. Well, also, it was like a studio movie. Like, we were on a completely different schedule. I was working with a huge team of professionals. Every single person at every single crew level knew more about making movies than me. Everybody. And so I'm like the person from Canada who's never made a real movie, who really has a totally unique process. That, to me is just like, well, that's just how I make movies. But to everybody else is like, what the hell are you doing? And so it's not like it was a negative experience in that way. People were incredibly supportive, but there was a lot of getting used to one another. Definitely. I would say, not with the actors at all. Like, those actors are some of my best friends. And now. And, I mean, that's the part of filmmaking I adore, where you're basically just working with five or six people to play and tell a story. But working with, like, a crew of that size was, like, crazy.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you take away from that then going forward to do the next couple of things? Well,

[Matt Johnson]

I think that I was very lucky to have formed strong relationships with the cast that could be the central fulcrum of the entire creative process, because I had. Because me and Dominic were trying to do things in the scenes that really. And I'm using the word forced, but I don't. I don't mean that coercively. That forced the production to move at a certain pace and operate in a certain way. And I think that if you're a filmmaker all of a sudden, working in a studio system for the first time, that will help you a lot, because, again, this never happened. But I can picture it being very easy for a crew to turn on a director, but they're never gonna turn on the cast in a million years. And so if you are in an alliance with the cast and they really believe in what you're doing, and then it creates an environment where everybody's like, okay, we're doing things a bit differently, and it's great. Whereas if the director is trying to do things differently and the cast is like, I don't feel comfortable with this. You are so dead. You have no idea. You'll basically never make a movie again.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's very interesting. I've not heard it put that way, but that does make sense. Why do you say they won't turn on the cast? Just because it's a different kind of relationship that they have.

[Matt Johnson]

You've done a movie set before.

[Sean Fennessy]

I have, but not in the way that you have. Because they are the blessed. The blessed people.

[Matt Johnson]

They're. They are like the holy few.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

They're magic.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

Look, actors are magic people. And we've all decided that's true.

[Sean Fennessy]

So it is the premise of this show. Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

They're magic people. And so, you know, like, they can't have bad days. Like, they're every. Like they're just. And I don't mean this cynically, like you're there for them.

[Adam Naiman]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

They have something that no one else has. And you have to kind of made a way make a way to make that special.

[Matt Johnson]

They are the movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

And I think one of the. I mean, I love movies, but whenever I see a movie and I'm like. And I'm not connecting with it, it's because I'm feeling at a deep level. The director doesn't understand that. They're showing me all their tricks. They're showing me how they can move a camera. They're showing me their awesome plot. They're showing me all these things instead of just an actor thinking.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was thinking about this last night, about you, too. Do you see yourself as, forgive the phrase, but an auteur? Is that something that. That resonates with you? No.

[Matt Johnson]

I mean, my movies are all specifically me, but I don't think that there's any kind of individual thing that ties them all together, apart from the fact that I had to use these busted Canadian production techniques because we had no money.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know. Your films have a look and style that is consistent. You know, even when you're changing time period, changing, you know, black and white or color, like there is a vibe, a visual connectivity to all the things. Don't you agree?

[Matt Johnson]

Well, put your actors in close ups.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, sure. The cutting style, though, the action shots, the sense of when the camera wanders away for a second. You have moves.

[Matt Johnson]

Sure. Yeah, a lot of those. I have to credit both to Jared Rabb, my cinematographer, and to Kurt Lobb, the person who's been editing my movies since the Dirties. And now Bobby Upchurch, who edits with him. I would say that we all have the same worldview. We all think the same things are funny. Like, literally and we all love the same things. And so it's funny, though, because it's hard to explain. Yeah, I know what you mean. Where, you know, you cut at a certain time or you show a certain expression. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Again, we sometimes talk about here, like, if you put your hand over someone's byline and you read their piece, you can tell who wrote it. That's like, the sign of a great writer. Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

Of course.

[Sean Fennessy]

Even if your face wasn't in the movie, the energy of the film, I'm like, I could probably tell that was a Matt Johnson movie.

[Matt Johnson]

Well, let's see what you think about Tony when I'm back talking about the Bourdain movie. He'll be like, so everything I said, I was really wrong about you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Maybe I will. We'll see. So Nirvana the band, the TV show. The show, season three.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah. That's why we made the movie. I made BlackBerry to make the movie so that I could make the third season of the show.

[Sean Fennessy]

What's going on with that? Where is it? What's the stats?

[Matt Johnson]

If the movie keeps doing as well as it's doing now in theaters, then it will be released for sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

In what capacity?

[Matt Johnson]

Well, it's funny. At first I thought we'd have to release it physically because I was like, no network is ever, ever, ever gonna put this on. But now it seems like whatever network winds up taking a chance on season one and two of the TV show will probably also release the third season.

[Sean Fennessy]

So you think that's what, someone will license the shows and then put them out? Oh, boy.

[Matt Johnson]

That's what I think is gonna happen. And then what's great is that you're gonna get to see the first attempt at us shooting this movie, which I'm not sure if you know about this.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't.

[Matt Johnson]

So that movie that you saw is actually the second draft. And I mean, second time we shot the Nirvana the Band movie because when we first shot it, we thought we should make it as a Confederacy of dunces. Talented Mr. Ripley homage.

[Sean Fennessy]

I read about this. Yes. Okay.

[Matt Johnson]

Which we actually shot all through the United States in New Orleans for a month and a half, two months.

[Sean Fennessy]

How long ago was this?

[Matt Johnson]

It would have been right after. Shortly after the BERLIN Premiere of BlackBerry. So around the time that I was speaking with you is when we were planning to leave for the season.

[Sean Fennessy]

So what happened to all that material?

[Matt Johnson]

We're turning it into a double episode of season three. Because when we got back and watched it, we were like, oh, this is great. But it does feel like Television. And that's when all of a sudden, we just decided to make this time travel movie. But. But, hey, that's why I said it was a real change all of a sudden, working in the American system.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sounds like it. A confederacy of dunces. Though you may be one of the precious few who could crack that.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah, it's cursed. Every single production, including mine. We tried to make it into a movie, and now at best, it'll be two episodes of television. But speaking of edgelords, Ignatius is the OG True. Original edgelord.

[Sean Fennessy]

Truly. What an inspiration. Another Nirvana movie.

[Matt Johnson]

I mean, this movie's just in theaters right now. I don't know. These things are so hard to make that. Yes, I'd love to do it, but the thing is, it would need to be so. We'd need to have such a good idea to top what we did. I mean, the only clue I'll give, and this is something Jay and I have been talking about, is that we should do it in real time. It should be kind of like a bit of a time code Figgis homage where we do it in real time so that at least it has something where you're like. Where it truly is. Unbelievable.

[Sean Fennessy]

Was that the four box film?

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah. We wouldn't be doing it. We wouldn't be doing it like that. It would be hard because there's two of us.

[Sean Fennessy]

You and Jay and 2008. You and 2008.

[Matt Johnson]

That's what I mean we can't go back to.

[Sean Fennessy]

You have so much raw footage. Come on.

[Matt Johnson]

Yes, we do.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. We probably would recreate that footage in a way.

[Matt Johnson]

Well, I'll tell you what. You can pitch the editors that they've got to do this again. How about that?

[Sean Fennessy]

They'll just rewatch all the stuff you shot 20 years ago. It'll be fine.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

What are you really excited about doing right now? That's what I'm most curious.

[Matt Johnson]

The honest answer is the. The Gathering movie. Like, it's the. It is the.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're such a millennial. It's fucking like an elder millennial. I do feel a real kinship with you in that way.

[Matt Johnson]

That game taught me to read. And when I was a kid, my dream was to be a professional magic card player. And I mean that literally. I made Day 2 in Detroit. 2006, Pro Tour Champions of Kawagama, and I drafted like garbage. I sat next to Richard Hoen, who just beat the shit out of me, and I made that decision right then. I need to take filmmaking seriously because I'm never going to be A pro magic player. And I just quit. Broke my heart. And for years, I've said I would trade my entire career to be a professional magic card player. And now I'm making the magic card movie. And so it's almost like, yeah, someone was listening. It was like making a wish on a monkey paw where you're like, please, please let me stop being a filmmaker and let me play magic cards instead.

[Sean Fennessy]

But what happens when it curls?

[Matt Johnson]

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Who knows what's going to happen to me? But to me, that's like my Star wars, like, getting to revisit a world that I know so well, that I love so much, that meant so much to me. It's surreal, to be honest, to be able to do a project like that. But, I mean, it's still early days. Who knows?

[Sean Fennessy]

Matt, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen? Can I just preface that question quickly? Do you feel as into cinephilia as you were as a kid?

[Matt Johnson]

No. I think it's a big curse that any filmmaker will tell you is that as soon as you start making movies, it's really, really hard to have the same kind of. Maybe the word is even curiosity about what is happening. I'm assuming you're talking about new movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

It can be anything if you want.

[Matt Johnson]

Oh, really?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Matt Johnson]

It can be literally anything.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah,

[Matt Johnson]

yeah. I mean that. When we were prepping this movie over and over and over, I watched the documentary Streetwise. Now, have you seen this film?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Matt Johnson]

So this. I mean, this, to me, is like, one of the greatest films ever made about Seattle. And if your listeners haven't seen this movie, I promise it'll feel brand new when they watch it. They'll be like, I can't believe I never heard of this before. And. Yeah. Although, I mean, in some ways, that's a real film. Like, everybody in film school seen that film. But that's probably the last thing I saw where I was like, oh, my gosh, this is unbelievable.

[Sean Fennessy]

Why did you watch it over and over and over?

[Matt Johnson]

Because we were trying to completely steal the aesthetic from it. When we would be shooting in public, Jay and I would always say to our. To the camera operators, Jared, and at that time, Nikolai, we'd be like, streetwise, Streetwise. We're doing this. Streetwise. We're doing this one. Streetwise. Which is basically just saying, the camera's so far away, shooting in a wide while action is happening over a wireless microphone. And basically it just meant, like, whatever happens, happens. Like, just. Just. Just let it be the way it is. But if you are a film student and you're thinking of shooting things or making movies in this style, watch that film. It's like a How to. I. I don't even know how they did it. Do you know how they did it?

[Sean Fennessy]

Of course not.

[Matt Johnson]

It's like, you watch it, you're like, what? This seems impossible. Is this all recreation? Like, there's no way you're watching crimes get committed. Yeah, it's. I mean, yeah, it's a masterpiece.

[Sean Fennessy]

Matt, it was nice seeing you.

[Matt Johnson]

I love speaking with you. I can't. I can't wait to. To be back to talk about Tony. And I'm sure the tone's gonna be quite different.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, hopefully not too different. I hope you're. I hope you're ecstatic and thrilled. I will be. And always questing for the truth. Congrats on Nirvana. It's. It's genuinely. It. Extraordinary accomplishment.

[Matt Johnson]

It's a huge compliment that you liked it and I mean that. I am. I'm totally grateful. Thank you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thanks, Matt. Thank you to Matt Johnson. Thank you to Adam Naman. Thanks to cr. Thanks, Amanda. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for additional production support. Next week, Wesley Morris returns. It's time for the sixth annual Alternative Oscars. Are you ready?

[State Farm Announcer]

I'm excited.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm excited as well. We'll see you then.