‘Project Hail Mary’ Will Amaze! Amaze! Amaze! With Phil Lord and Chris Miller

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture – ‘Project Hail Mary’ Will Amaze! Amaze! Amaze! With Phil Lord and Chris Miller

Podcast: The Big Picture (The Ringer)
Episode Air Date: March 20, 2026
Hosts: Sean Fennessey, Amanda Dobbins
Guests: Phil Lord & Chris Miller
Episode Focus: Review and deep-dive into “Project Hail Mary,” plus interviews with directors Phil Lord & Chris Miller

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Episode Overview

This episode spotlights the anticipated sci-fi adaptation Project Hail Mary, directed by Phil Lord and Chris Miller and starring Ryan Gosling. Sean and Amanda review the film, discuss industry news, and later host a thoughtful conversation with Lord and Miller, who detail their hands-on, craft-driven approach to the movie in an era of CG overload. The hosts also touch on recent movie news, industry shifts, and streaming trends before dedicating the bulk of the episode to the film’s merits and behind-the-scenes stories.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Movie and Industry News (02:27–33:05)

Oscar Ratings Decline (02:30–08:19)

• The hosts lament a 9% drop in Oscar viewership year over year, exploring causes:
  • Post-Covid audience attrition and show timing in March (Amanda: "Award season was way too long. …people have moved on to their spring and summer pursuits." [03:39])
  • Competition from major sporting events (World Baseball Classic).
  • Fundamental shifts away from linear TV.
  • The future of the Oscars, especially as the show migrates off ABC and toward a possible YouTube era.
  • Amanda discusses the "bite-sized" YouTube potential: “The show is like pre-itemized in a way that is actually very helpful for YouTube once the show has happened.” [06:47]
  • Sean is concerned about the Academy adapting to “slop-pen” YouTube culture.

Spider-Man: Brand New Day Trailer (08:21–16:58)

• Amanda shares she saw the new Spider-Man trailer at a nail salon, finds the visuals hard to judge in that setting.
• Sean and Amanda debate the longevity of casting Tom Holland as a teenage Spider-Man as he approaches 30.
  • Amanda likens it to "90210 saved by the bell goes to college." [11:24]
• They discuss the expanded universe: Punisher (Jon Bernthal), Scorpion (Michael Mando), Hulk (Mark Ruffalo), and speculate on Sadie Sink’s character (possible Jean Grey).
• Both feel the production looks “small” and unremarkable compared to No Way Home (“This doesn’t look that special. All right, I could be wrong. I hope it’s good.” – Sean [16:34])

Kirsten Dunst in Minecraft 2, Franchise Work, and AI Friend Discourse (17:10–21:04)

• Amanda champions Dunst’s choice to star in Minecraft 2, framing it as career joy and pragmatism.
• The hosts debate actors taking franchise/cash jobs and muse about AI chatbots entering daily life and relationships—a comedic and philosophical digression.

Industry Streaming News: Netflix’s Theatrical Future (21:04–28:01)

• Discussion of Netflix’s rumored theatrical ambitions, spurred by the Cliff Booth (Quentin Tarantino) project and Greta Gerwig’s upcoming Narnia adaptation.
  • “It kind of feels like Netflix is, like, six months away from announcing that they do theatrical.” – Sean [23:50]
  • They ponder the shifting priorities—serving shareholders, filmmakers, or audiences.
• Brief Scorsese update: Leo DiCaprio and Jennifer Lawrence’s new film “What Happens at Night” teased; likely for 2027.

Podcast Inside Baseball (29:24–33:05)

• Banter about losing the iHeart Podcast Award ("The one time I've ever won anything" – Sean, recounting his third-grade food pyramid victory [30:12])
• Amanda: “Kiki’s getting paid and reminding us all that sometimes you just gotta go chase that bag.” [34:44]

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2. “Project Hail Mary” Deep Dive (33:05–65:20)

Overall Impressions (33:05–41:14)

• Both hosts thoroughly enjoyed the film, particularly its first hour and a half and the “human-made” quality of the craft and practical effects.
  • Amanda: "What it accomplishes… feeling made by humans, even if it is not always portraying humans... is palpable and exciting." [34:14]
• The depiction of Rocky the alien was crucial; they praise both design and characterization.
  • "If they don't get that creature… then the story sucks. And they absolutely nailed it." – Amanda [34:43]

Craft, Tone, & Performances (41:14–52:54)

• Dense with handcrafted visual effects and puppetry; Sean compares it to the best Spielberg and ET moments.
  • “It’s beautiful in a way that very few mainstream Hollywood productions are.” – Sean [36:45]
• Ryan Gosling’s performance compared to “Matt Damon, Paul Newman,” carrying the film with nuance and charm. Both compare his role here to earlier Gosling works and Damon’s in The Martian.
  • “This is in that Matt Damon, Paul Newman realm of like, camera’s on you, you gotta carry…if you’re not bought in on that as well as Rocky, then the movie won’t work.” – Sean [38:14]
• They note the film's structure is unique, involving flashbacks but feeling somewhat traditional in execution.

Length, Pacing, and Flaws (41:14–46:20)

• Both agree the movie is long, especially “baggy” in the last act.
  • Amanda: “The last 15 minutes are really, really baggy and kind of over the top…You walk away with an impression of greater sentimentality than is maybe in the rest of the movie.” [41:14]
• They recall similar issues with The Martian.

Approach to Science (42:02–44:44)

• Credited for being accessible (middle-school science level) rather than overwhelming.
  • Amanda: “What I think is very clever… everything is like, ‘this is a cell’ as one of the big reveals… It’s understandable.” [43:28]

Visual/Practical Effects & Character Dynamics (46:20–51:25)

• The “real” feel of sets, practical effects, and especially the Rocky puppet elevate immersion and emotion:
  • “This is how it should be…I know it’s expensive…and hard, but…when it feels like Ryan Gosling is in a room with an alien…” – Sean [47:37]
• Key emotional connection scene: When Rocky and Grace “hug” through a glass partition.
• Rocky’s physical design, humor (the down-only thumbs gag), and the creature work by Neal Scanlan and James Ortiz are singled out as memorable.

Score and Cinematic Influences (55:45–58:09)

• Daniel Pemberton’s score is praised for capturing both the film’s grand and comedic tones ("rhythmic and jazz-like in the first half, and more epic and choral in the second half." – Sean [55:45]).
• The movie channels classics like Close Encounters, ET, 2001, and Interstellar, but with its own accessible science.

Oscar & Box Office Prospects (59:05–66:01)

• Anticipates Best Picture viability, especially given The Martian’s previous awards run.
  • Amanda: “I think this might be better than The Martian.” [59:25]
• Considers how the blend of comedy and drama could impact its Oscar hopes.

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3. Interview with Phil Lord & Chris Miller (70:53–104:28)

Book to Film: Why "Project Hail Mary"? (70:53–72:47)

• The directors received the book from Ryan Gosling and Amy Pascal before publication.
• Drawn by themes of unlikely friendship, optimism, creativity under duress.
  • Lord: “Our movies are…51% optimistic. … We try to make movies that help people imagine goodness.” [71:37]
• They felt uniquely equipped to handle things like a co-star "alien with no face, no eyes, no mouth, speaks in whale song." [72:04]

Technical and Artistic Challenges (74:02–77:26)

• Explains the huge labor behind practical sets, puppetry (five puppeteers for Rocky), microgravity, and multiple ship orientations.
• Massive collaboration: “...the most complex film we’ve ever worked on…and we made two Dunes.” [76:33]

Science & Storytelling (77:39–80:29)

• Sought scientific accuracy and digestibility; extensive test screenings to refine clarity and pacing.
• Treats science as both grounding and “ingenuity porn” (watching someone solve a problem).

Inhabiting and Innovating the Space Movie Genre (80:53–83:22)

• Acknowledges pressure to live up to genre giants but insists on their own tactile, imperfect vision ("not a Mac, it's a PC...It's messy, he's messy..." – Lord [81:31])

Collaboration (88:21–92:20)

• Their directorial process is side-by-side, non-verbal, and adaptive, seeking to merge both of their ideas for the broadest creative range.

Tone, Humor, and Heart (92:20–94:13)

• Sought to honor the balance of humor and emotion from Andy Weir’s material.
  • “The best dramas make you laugh and the best comedies make you cry.” – Miller [93:07]

On Set Stories & Technical Innovations (94:25–99:27)

• Describes the complex process devised for filming the infrared astrophage scene: chicken wire, IR lights, water-splashed glass, built for real on set.

Score and Atmosphere (97:11–99:53)

• Pemberton’s music involved live children’s choirs, classroom percussion, and even a sampled leaky faucet. The intent: give the sense all of humanity is cheering for the protagonist.
  • “We want him to feel like the entire earth is rooting him on. And so that's why it's full of choirs and lots and lots of players.” – Lord [97:27]

Stakes and the Value of Practical Cinema (100:00–101:56)

• Acknowledge the pressure on making big, original movies with practical effects in the current studio climate.
  • “Every movie has to clear is undeniable greatness. ... If you’re doing something original, it has to be great...” – Lord/Miller [101:11]

Last Great Thing Seen (102:15–104:28)

• Chris Miller lauds the Oscar-nominated animated short “Papillon.”
• Phil Lord praises "Crime 101" for turning LA’s 101 freeway into poetic cinema: “...turned that into poetry and like spun the camera and took the whole theater for this crazy ride.” [103:16]

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Award season was way too long…I do honestly think some of it is just habit. Like people have moved on to their spring and summer pursuits”
  — Amanda Dobbins [03:39]
• “If they don’t get [Rocky] exactly right…then the story sucks. And they absolutely nailed it.”
  — Amanda Dobbins [34:43]
• “It is beautiful in a way that very few mainstream Hollywood productions are."
  — Sean Fennessy [36:45]
• "This is in that Matt Damon, Paul Newman realm of like, camera’s on you, you gotta carry..."
  — Sean Fennessy [38:14]
• “The last 15 minutes are really, really, really baggy and kind of over the top. …You walk away with an impression of greater sentimentality...”
  — Amanda Dobbins [41:14]
• "This is how it should be…I genuinely feel like this is—if you...when it feels like Ryan Gosling is in a room with an alien…”
  — Sean Fennessy [47:37]
• “The best dramas make you laugh and the best comedies make you cry.”
  — Chris Miller [93:07]
• “Every movie has to clear is undeniable greatness ... If you’re doing something new, it has to be great...”
  — Phil Lord/Chris Miller [101:11]
• “He brought in a bunch of school children to stomp and clap for the percussion…his kids from his classroom were still part of his consciousness, because it just didn’t…it just…we kept wanting the movie to be affirming and warm and feel like you were…we were all in this together.”
  — Phil Lord [97:27]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

| Segment Description | Timestamp Range | |-------------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Oscar Ratings and Shifts | 02:27–08:19 | | Spider-Man & Franchise News | 08:19–16:58 | | Streaming & Netflix Theatrical Debate | 21:04–28:01 | | “Project Hail Mary” Review (with spoilers) | 33:05–65:20 | | Lord & Miller Interview | 70:53–104:28 |

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Episode Takeaways & Final Thoughts

• "Project Hail Mary" is a rare, big-budget, craft-first studio sci-fi film: It’s warmly received for blending accessible science, humor, and heart, powered by a practical visual approach in an increasingly digital world.
• Gosling’s central performance & the artistry of Rocky are key: Both the human and alien protagonists resonate, and their emotional arc is anchored by superb production design and puppetry.
• Industry commentary threads through the episode: From the Oscars’ evolving future to Netflix’s theatrical possibilities and the challenges of franchise fatigue, Sean and Amanda give an engaging, opinionated look at movie culture today.
• Lord & Miller’s vision emphasizes craftsmanship and emotional sincerity: They offer valuable insights on working with limitations, making practical decisions, and balancing spectacle with intimacy.

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For listeners: This episode is essential for anyone curious about the filmmaking craft behind a tentpole movie in a digital age, especially those interested in how human touch and ingenuity can still make “summer blockbuster” movies feel new, warm, and moving.

Transcript

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Sean Fennessy]

I'm Sean Fennessy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Davins and this is the

[Sean Fennessy]

Big Picture, A conversation show about a Hail Mary in the first quarter on today's show, we will dive into the highly anticipated Ryan Gosling Scott space Saga project Hail Mary. Then I will be joined for a conversation with directors Phil Lord and Chris Miller, who are back with their first directorial effort in more than 10 years. We talked about how they made this movie by hand, the practical effects, the physical effects, the science, the puppeteering. It is a truly amazing act of craftsmanship in a time of a lot of digital glop that Amanda and I complain about a lot on the show. So stick around for that conversation. But first, we have some movie news to get into right after this. This episode of the Big Picture is presented by State Farm. Sure, being an expert at movie trivia is impressive. You know what's even more impressive? Being smart about saving money. And a great way to do that is by saving. When you choose to bundle home and auto with the State Farm Personal Price Plan Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price Plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Okay, Dobbins, I was whinging about the Oscar ratings.

[Amanda Dobbins]

How did I get a Dobbins?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, this is serious matter. This is really important.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's really. We put on our. We put on our big kid hat,

[Sean Fennessy]

I should say, Ms. Dobbins. That's how we're gonna open this. Cause Mr. Fennesee's here and we're gonna talk about the Oscar ratings. They came in, they came in very late, suspiciously late. And I believe the reason they came in so late is cuz they're not good. Yeah, they are down 9% year over year. 17.86 million. I was very wrong. I thought they would be up this year and they were not. They were not. And of course I know that linear television ratings are going down across the board for everything other than football, but I was surprised. And why do you think that happened?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was also. I was wrong. I should say not as wrong as you who both thought that they were going to go up and also like invested your week's happiness in it. I thought there was going to hold. And they're significantly down. This is the lowest broadcast since 2022. So whatever, like post Covid uptick is back down. We're still in the, in like a 5 million person range here. Which is just to say the, you know, the 90s and the 2000s heyday is, is gone.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's over.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We're talking about a different, like just a completely different segment of the audience. I think this award season was way too long. I think it was way, way, way, way. And I do think that in the same way we have sort of trained audiences to expect blockbusters in the summer and fancy prestige movies around Thanksgiving and Christmas and now a surprisingly good movie in, you know, March or April that you aren't. We have trained people to expect awards shows around the awards show season, which is January and February and it was March 15th. So I, I do honestly think some of it is just habit. Like people have moved on to their spring and summer pursuits and have been hearing for a long time. And there's a real wait. The Oscars haven't happened yet, especially when Sinners, which was one of the two main competitors, had been out for almost a year.

[Sean Fennessy]

There were some other components too, I think. One, obviously the show is not on an upward trajectory long term. I'm very well aware of that. I think the world baseball semifinal which featured the United States against the Dominican was not something that the show anticipated could happen. But this is the risk you run when you start getting really close to baseball season. You start getting in the way of potential sporting events cutting into your audience. And that WBC game I think did 7.86 million, which for a baseball game is huge, let alone an basically an exhibition tournament before the season even starts. So that's a factor.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. Though counterpoint. I, who enjoy baseball literally Found out that the World Baseball Classic was happening on this podcast when you told me. So I don't know if the audience is overlapping to the same. Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

People turning on 10% is a lot

[Amanda Dobbins]

like people turn 10% is the amount that it was down from last year. But sure, like the people who are, you know, throwing a dart at the, at the, or you know, the TV lineup before they turn it on for the night. Sure. Everybody else, they either tune in for one or the other.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Hardcore movie fans obviously weren't missing the Oscars. I shouldn't say that hardcore award show fans are missing the Oscars. Some movie fans don't care about the Oscars. I think this is really interesting because obviously there's two more telecasts coming on ABC and they're losing the show. I don't really know how much they're going to care about the ratings in those final two years. It's not really their problem, so to speak, going forward. YouTube and the way that YouTube pursues audience and what the Academy will do to be more like a YouTube show is of some interest to me and I think will become maybe like a little pet topic of discussion on this show over the next couple of years and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Or possibly a pain point.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I mean truthfully, you know, driving engagement on YouTube is done very differently. It is like a lot of gamifying, a lot of direct address, a lot of like tricks and tools that are used to keep people locked into their screens as opposed to kind of idly watching television. And it's just a very different ball game. And I'm just fascinated to see how the Academy kind of adapts or doesn't adapt to that future.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. In some ways this show is like pre itemized in a way that is actually very helpful for YouTube once the show has happened.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then they have 24 bite sized acceptance speeches that we already all like look up. And I think that many people consume the next day on YouTube or TikTok or Instagram rather than watching the broadcast itself. So it's kind of finding its home. But you have to assume that they want live views of the entire broadcast, which is not how most people consume YouTube.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's going to be interesting because the Academy historically is a very prestigious group that sees itself as shepherding the past and future of movie culture, at least in America and increasingly abroad. And you know, I say this as somebody who loves YouTube. YouTube is kind of a slop pen. It's just kind of like there's a lot of stuff out there, some of it's good, some of it's not. It's a wild, wild west. And I have joked for years that they should do the countdown from 10 to 1 in terms of revealing who the winner of the show is. That sort of thing feels way more in play in a YouTube future. ABC, I think, is just sort of happy to have a big Sunday night event in the spring for the next couple of years. And then we're more or less dispensing with linear television across the board. I mean, every kind of show is down in that environment right now. So that's just us getting older. That's what that is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Welcome.

[Sean Fennessy]

Other news, there's a new trailer for a film called Spider Man.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Brand new day coming out on July 31st. I learned it's my birthday movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's your birthday movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

What'd you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Watched it while I was getting a manicure at the nail salon. Intended. Maybe not the intended environment, but were

[Sean Fennessy]

they running it on the television there? Yes, they were running the trailer.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was as an ad in between music videos. So this is, this is how I keep up on music videos from 2008 to 2015.

[Sean Fennessy]

I see.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And also see trailers. And I wouldn't say that, you know, the settings on the TV at my beloved El Nail Spa was like primo for this. So it looked quite dark and some

[Sean Fennessy]

motion smoothing going on.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But that's, you know, that's okay. I got the gist, which is that Peter Parker is still a teenager and yearning to be feel a larger connection to the world and also dealing with bad guys. And Zendaya doesn't remember who he is but is still in the movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Most of the people don't remember who he is. There was a bit of a mind wipe for Peter Parker as Spider Man.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Related. Zendaya and Tom Holland. Married or not married. Go.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't care. I sure. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Have you paid any attention to this? Has this made it to your Internet?

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm aware of it being a thing. I saw that there was an AI image of them at their wedding that was spread around. That tricked a lot of people.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It did.

[Sean Fennessy]

I did see that. I mean, I genuinely don't care.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like, I hope they're happy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Me too.

[Sean Fennessy]

Whether or not they, like, are legally bound to one another forevermore, not really in my interest set.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, from a purely financial perspective, I think it would be unwise at this point. I don't know why they need to.

[Sean Fennessy]

Legally. They both accumulated some assets.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, sure, but why at this point? Point why do you need to tie them together? You know what I mean? Maybe it's an immigration thing. Maybe it's going to make it easier to go back and forth from the UK and the US but when you're that you need a sip of water,

[Sean Fennessy]

I feel like just let them do what they want to do. They want to put their assets together.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's true. But like I don't know, it's.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you have regrets?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I don't because I'm in the tax bracket where it made sense to put assets together.

[Sean Fennessy]

I see.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Even though I didn't understand that totally at the time. Makes sense is one word. Or where I am forced to in order to, you know, great by in the American economy. But no, it's good. I'm glad I got married. If they want to get married, that's great. If they don't, I, you know, I hope they're not. Whatever they want.

[Sean Fennessy]

Let's circle back to the film Spider Man.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They're playing teenagers in the film.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

How much longer are they going to get to be.

[Sean Fennessy]

They're exiting that time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think maybe we're going into young adulthood with these.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, but how long. What's the oldest that we've ever seen Spider Man?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, we saw Peter B. Parker in the Spider Verse films who was like a 30 something dad but he's not the protagonist. He was the second lead. Jake Johnson's character.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, sure. And he was very good. But you know what I mean where like you want old Peter. No. The essence of Spider man as a teenager.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree with you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it's a little bit of like 90210 saved by the bell goes to college situation here.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a fair point. Tom Holland's getting older. I don't know what you want me to say. I mean they can't de age this guy. How old is Tom Holland? Let's look that up. He's 29 years old. He's gonna be 30 on June 1st.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. So he will be. We'll have a 30 year old spider man when this movie comes out.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think there have been great runs in Spider man history when Peter is a young adult and so it's not out of the realm of possibility. This trailer I'm not so sure did not look good. So one, they're making a shift away from Jon Watts the filmmaker and Destin Daniel Cretton is coming in to direct. No Way Home was a very silly movie. A little bit incoherent, but so fun. Such a fun time at the movie theater and because of the kind of universe collapsing and bringing in the three spider men and all the villains from those different Spider man movies and getting to see Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield and Holland all together. You know, we were very enthusiastic about that movie when it came out. And it felt like also it was along with a couple of other movies that kind of like, let's break through Covid here and like, get back to the movie going. And it was a huge event. It was almost a $2 billion movie. And this trailer just seems a little small compared to that movie. There are a number of villains. Would you like to hear about the villains, please? Well, you know who Jon Bernthal plays, right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I mean, I saw him and they put the. And then Tom Holland put his web on the gun to stop the gun. So I saw that.

[Sean Fennessy]

So Jon Bernthal plays a man named Frank Castle who is also known as the Punisher, A very famous Marvel comics character, a kind of vigilante. A gun toting hero seeking vengeance after his family is murdered. There was a Marvel TV series starring Bernthal playing this character some years ago on Netflix. He was brought back, I think, for Daredevil, the most recent Daredevil TV show. Spider man and the Punisher, they have a thing over the years. They have an interesting dynamic. This movie seems to be getting into that he's kind of an antihero, not really a villain. Then there was Michael Mando, who was in Better Call Saul, and he's playing Scorpion. Do you know about Scorpion?

[Amanda Dobbins]

If you're following along at home like this, right now in real time is the exact moment that I realized that because the Oscars are over now, it's just you telling me about comic books again. For at least 20 minutes of podcast, there's only. You're just talking.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's only two.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then you guys are gonna do a clip out and you're gonna try to include me with a face of just being like, oh, yes, Sean, tell me more about the comic book. And I was like, huh, monologuing.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know you at the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Then here we go. All right.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is something I know about.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. That's awesome.

[Sean Fennessy]

Scorpion.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's cool to know he's a velvet things.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's a Spider man villain.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's one of the last big Spider man villains who has not been the focus of one of these movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

All right.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's not a great villain. I didn't really like his character design in the trailer. Way too Mecha Scorpion. In the comic books, he's like. He's got like a green latex suit on with a huge stinger. He, like, swings his tail stinger around and stings you. Yeah. In this, it's like he's like some sort of robot man. I wasn't into it. Mark Ruffalo is in the trailer returning as Bruce Banner, AKA the Hulk.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The Hulk.

[Sean Fennessy]

We don't see him in Hulk form. Jacob Bottle on his back as Ned. Love Ned.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I like Ned. But Ned also doesn't remember who Peter Parker is.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

As Spider man or as Peter.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that true?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I don't know. Was Peter erased from his. I don't remember anyone in the booth.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm not entirely sure. I might need to circle back to no Way Home. Also saw Trammell Tillman in this. Wonderful. Nice to see him getting some work. We didn't see Sadie Sink. Now, you know Sadie Sink is in this movie. Do you know who that is?

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's one of the stranger things.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Do you know who she's going to be in this world?

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's one of the stranger things. Well, which one does Zendaya play?

[Sean Fennessy]

She plays mj.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So is Sadie Sink. Gwen?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't think so.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, then I'm out of ideas.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think she's going to be playing Jean Grey, the ex woman.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

So it'd be a suitcase and that's. Yes. But they're hiding the ball in Sadie Sink, so we didn't get that. I just thought this production just didn't look that great. It just did not look that inventive or different or really meaningfully special. And when. So I just rewatched Solo with my daughter because we were going through all

[Amanda Dobbins]

the Star wars movies. How'd it go?

[Sean Fennessy]

She liked it a lot. I didn't get it at all. She was really into Kira, who was Emilia Clarke's character. Remember Emilia Clarke from Game of Thrones?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I do.

[Sean Fennessy]

She was in Solo.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I remember that. That was her big run. Her mid Game of Thrones run. It didn't work out. Remember when you left last Christmas? In the middle.

[Sean Fennessy]

Terrible movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you know what happens at the end of last Christmas?

[Sean Fennessy]

No idea. Don't tell me. Don't spoil it. I'll get back to it one day.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's a fairly big twist.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm good. I don't want to know. Don't spoil it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I may rewatch it someday with my family. Why am I talking about this right now?

[Amanda Dobbins]

You watched Solo.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, yeah. And Solo. I remember watching Solo and being like oh, this is the first not special Star wars movie. Like every Star wars movie, good or bad, it felt like it was a big deal. It felt special. And Solo is not special. This doesn't look that special. All right, I could be wrong. I hope it's good. It's also my birthday movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Obviously you're not claiming Odyssey as your birthday.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's the 17th.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, they moved it up. I thought it was the 20 something.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, I think there is a movie on the 24th. Let's look at what that movie is. It's Evil Dead Burn, which I do claim and I am looking forward to. But the odyssey is the 17th.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. That's brand new day. More blockbuster news. Kirsten Dunst has joined the cast of Minecraft 2.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She sure has. So I provided the context for you and Jack because you received this as. As a defeat, a sign of, like, another one of our greats giving in. And I say to you, no, this is dreams coming true, which is literally what Kirsten Dunst posted. She screenshot a deadline on Instagram and she said, my dream came true because she publicly campaigned for this. And she said, my kids like this movie and I would like to make. I believe the exact quote was a pile of cash. Maybe I could be in a movie that doesn't lose money for once. And lo and behold, she's in Minecraft 2.

[Sean Fennessy]

So will you watch Minecraft 1? No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

As I said to you, Kiki can just catch me up on the lore,

[Sean Fennessy]

you know, like, individually. Sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Or she can, like, make a YouTube video. This is actually great marketing. If they just want to do just like Kirsten Dunst recaps Minecraft 1 just for people who care about her.

[Sean Fennessy]

For all the millennial moms who are obsessed with her. Yeah, okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Why not?

[Sean Fennessy]

Sounds good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then helps us relate to our children. So if I have anything to do with it, my children will never know about Minecraft.

[Sean Fennessy]

Good luck on that one. I think this is interesting. Okay, no double standard here for you. In terms of stars wasting their time with certain franchises.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Am I really the one that yells at people for going to make money?

[Sean Fennessy]

Who can really keep track with what you're yelling at people about these days?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't really think that's ever been my thing.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is something that Chris Ryan historically does not like. He does not like the like. Well, Chris Evans is inside the MCU for 13 years during the prime of his career, so we'll never know whether he's good or not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. James Cameron is making avatar movies for 45 years.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's also consistent with that point of view.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I guess every once in a while you're like, was the check really this worthwhile? Say, Rebecca Ferguson in Mercy, being an AI person, you know, that wasn't good. That wasn't good. You know, and we did spend some time wondering about, like, what that funded in her life, you know? But in general, I don't know. People gotta make money.

[Sean Fennessy]

Would you ever be friends with an AI?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I wouldn't. Well, this. Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Would you ever make love with an AI?

[Amanda Dobbins]

So has the. Has the whole comedian dating an AI chatbot thing made its way to you? The rumor that Zach Braff then denied. Zach Braff denied it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But so. But so there's someone allegedly, who is dating an AI, a noted comedian who's dating an AI chap, and, quote, bringing her places. And this is what I really want to understand is they're bringing her places. Like, what does that mean?

[Sean Fennessy]

There's a whole film about this.

[Chris Miller]

It's called Her.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's true. But he just talks to Scarlett Johansson at home, and then.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, when he's out, he talks to her, too. He's got, like, the earpiece.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But Amy Adams and Scarlett Johansson don't really interact with.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, they don't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So Wednesday, bringing her places. I mean, the way it's presented implies that the person in question is, like, introducing her. And then I. So I want to know how this person thinks. They're integrating the AI chatbot into the social circle.

[Sean Fennessy]

In the Shrouds, Vincent Cassel definitely interacts meaningfully with an AI chatbot who is actually secretly Guy Pearce's character. And he's manipulating him, as I recall. I don't remember if he introduces her to anybody. Maybe he does. Maybe he does introduce her.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but so it's like. So you have a friend, an AI friend, and you bring them here.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't have an AI friend.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it's like, do we get a little selfie stand? And you just put the phone here? Third chair, and then there we go.

[Sean Fennessy]

Third chair.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Great. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

What would your AI friend's name be?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Money. Because that's the only reason I would do it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, take note. Sam Altman. Amanda is listening. Okay. Kirsten Dunst is doing that. There was a report in Deadline this week about Netflix and what Netflix is doing with their movies. I guess Dan Lin and Bella Bajaria presented some of their wares and some of the new things that are coming out later this year. There was a lot of discussion about the rumor that Netflix encourages or forces their filmmakers to restate the plot during. Because of the expectation that a lot of people are folding their laundry and not looking at the screen while watching.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We didn't mention the Casablanca Conan bit that he did at the Oscars with Sterling K. Brown.

[Sean Fennessy]

That was very funny.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was very, very funny.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Similarly intentioned idea about over enunciating what your character is doing in a movie. But a couple of things came out of this, and there was a lot of pushing around the idea of theatrical with Netflix because they said that were they to acquire Warner Brothers, they would have kept that theatrical business in place. And they did a lot of research around that part of the business, which is something they've never really pursued. And I would say Dan Lin was circumspect, but dropping clues about what the future could hold. Dan Lin, for many years was a theatrical film producer. He in fact, produced the Lego Movie, which is made by Lord Miller and had a lot of success doing that over the years. And in the original Deadline Report, there was a note that said the Adventures of Cliff Booth was coming out in August. That has since been scrubbed. So we don't know. Even though I have felt like it feels like a summer movie. And Once Upon a Time in Hollywood was also a summer movie. And then there was also some insinuation about what the theatrical plan would be for Narnia the Magician's Nephew.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Correct.

[Sean Fennessy]

The forthcoming Greta Gerwig adaptation of that novel. And it kind of feels like Netflix is like six months away from announcing that they do theatrical. Maybe that's just wishcasting, but this was kind of a weird story. And you don't drop those little morsels and hints the way that Lyn does if you're not thinking about making some changes. Did you follow this at all?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I read some of it, and I did see the Cliff Booth stuff and that it was then deleted. I interpreted it as the fruits of a lot of prep over the last six to nine to 12 months to try to buy a theatrical release studio in Warner Brothers. And, you know, they said that they had different intentions. Were they to buy Warner Brothers, because that's a business that works for Warner Brothers and it's different from their business. But you do kind of wonder as they're looking at what owning a theatrical distribution and studio would mean, that it maybe gave them a couple ideas as well.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Of how to make money, you know, and it is also just all hypothetical, like corporate presentation speak. So some of it is floating it testing to see what the reaction will be, because they are a publicly traded company. So much of it is like, what do the shareholders think about this? You know, some of it is also just you say things to fill up like a deck, and then what actually does or does not happen six months from now can be totally, totally different. That's how corporations work.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. You know, I'm about to bring up the forthcoming Martin Scorsese movie to you. And obviously when Apple was putting out Killers of the Flower Moon or when they were putting out Napoleon or when they put out F1 last summer, they worked in conjunction with a legacy studio to do the distribution for those movies. And it does seem like there's a real like, meets, like, partnership in play with Sony and Netflix because they already license a lot of content in that output deal from Sony. They have this standing relationship with Sony Pictures Animation, which just got us K Pop Demon Hunters. And Quentin Tarantino's last movie in the Cliff Booth universe was distributed by Sony. And so if we heard in a month or three months, and I have no information, I'm not reporting it, but if we heard that Sony was gonna put the Adventures of Cliff Booth in movie theaters in conjunction with Netflix for two weeks, four weeks, I wouldn't be shocked. I think they should. I think obviously think they should. I mean, we've been saying it makes no sense to not put like, Frankenstein or Knives out movies in movie theaters. Like, that's just bizarre to me that they don't really do that at scale.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. So then that puts the August release date into a little bit of question, which is perhaps why it was scrubbed. But if. If it's going to be on Netflix in August and they do want to do a theatrical release before then, that's June or July and that's going. That schedule is very full at this point. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Then you're running up against the Odyssey, which is not really where you want to be. I mean, and Disclosure Day. Yeah. And Spider Man. Yeah. And Toy Story 5 and Minions. Yeah. It's a very crowded June, July this year with big, big, big movies. I think it's a question of, like, what does Netflix want out of that side of the business? Do they really want to make money now or is it continuing to placate the feelings of the high level filmmakers? That was the other thing. It felt like there was a little bit of sensitivity to will people still be willing to work with you guys if you're not gonna start to do this? Because we saw Emerald Fennel, for example, with Wuthering Heights, cast up Netflix to make her film with Warner Brothers. And that turned out pretty good for her. Obviously, Ryan Coogler made Sinners at Warner Brothers because he was able to get that not just control of the print after 25 years, but a strong theatrical commitment. This has been discussed and debated for seven or eight years at this point. And we've talked about it a lot on the show. I do think Greta Gerwig making her first streamer movie and Tarantino being the writer and producer of a big movie like this, and he really prizes theatrical, feels like an interesting rubber meeting the road moment for the studio. We will continue to cover it. I mentioned, speaking of streamers, Martin Scorsese's new film, what Happens at Night. We saw a first look at the movie today. A still photograph of Leonardo DiCaprio and Jennifer Lawrence, the stars walking down a driveway in a snowy background. That's probably the image of the movie we'll be looking at for the next 18 months.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. Cause it's currently filming in Prague. Do we normally get first looks for Martin Scorsese movies? 18 months?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, famously we did for Killers of the Flower Moon. There was that image of Leo and Lily Gladstone at the table. And that was the only thing that we saw from the movie for almost two years. And then the movie came out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know when this movie's supposed to come out. I presume in 2027. I'm very excited for it. Obviously. Mustache in full effect for Leo.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Big fan.

[Sean Fennessy]

Looks good. I haven't read who is helping distribute this one. What studio? I think Paramount did Killers of the Flower Moon and Warner's at F1. So who's helping out here? We shall see. Is it you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I have exciting new business to announce. Me and my AI producing partner will be making lots of money.

[Sean Fennessy]

Her name is Money?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, her name is Money.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm looking forward to this movie. We're probably going to be talking about it for the next two years, though, so I don't want to get too overwhelmed.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I'm incredibly psyched. You were Talking about the 100th Oscars and what would be in competition. And if it releases in 2027, it would be in the mix. That's exciting.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is exciting. We're trying to get Marty that second Oscar. Great. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Are we going to make it to the Oscars? To 2028?

[Sean Fennessy]

Should we go to the 100th Oscars?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, then we got to work. Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know Jack is. Jack was trying to encourage us to go to the Oscars when we were down in Austin and I Was like, I don't know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Listen, we have to figure out mobile recording. You know, that's the thing.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, that's not it. I'm booking the Uber, timing it exactly correctly. This picture goes to what happens at night. We are in the car, we get here, we're the first people out of the building. We fire up the microphone.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That is very sweet. And I like. I like that you, like Marty supreme, are dreaming big.

[Sean Fennessy]

I also like the energy you're bringing to this. Thank you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But listen, an Uber won't be able to get within, like, half a mile.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's true. That's true.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm getting a helicopter on that particular night. They do have the helicopter pad on the lows, as we saw in crime 101. That's right. Filmed on location in Los Angeles.

[Sean Fennessy]

Lime scooters.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Should we take lime scooters?

[Phil Lord]

I also forgot to mention, we lost the iheart Award, unfortunately.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, who won?

[Sean Fennessy]

Watch what crappens.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Hmm. That's. That seems about right. I'll go to the. Sure. I'll go to the Oscars.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was thinking about when I shared that comment with you, that I've never won anything, and that's not true. When I was in third grade, I won a national contest. That contest was about health and the food pyramid. And I created a meal, okay, that was like the ideal meal to get all the food groups in. And I drew images of what it was, and it was just a meal that my mom made. I can't totally remember what the meal was at this point, but it was, like, entered into the contest. I won at my school, then I won in New York State, and then I won nationally. And it was just like a meal that my mom made in my house.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So were you awarded based on the meal planning, on the drawing itself, on

[Sean Fennessy]

kind of the totality of my essence, I think, is really what it was. I think they identified me as a comer in the industry.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did you submit the. Did you submit yourself, or was it your teachers who decided that you had the best work and we would be submitted?

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, I was in third grade. Okay, well, so I'm not totally sure, but as you might imagine, I was a confident young man. You know, I had some strong feelings about where I was going in the world. And at that time, it was 1989. I want to say third grade, maybe 1990. And we were right in the middle of George H.W. bush's America. Okay, Right. And there was Operation Desert Storm.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

A lot of tumult in the world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Storm and Norman.

[Sean Fennessy]

Storm and Norman Schwarzkopf. Of course, I didn't interact with any of these people, but the national body was Bush's governmental body that recognized my work. Yeah. So that's the one time I've ever won anything.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

And we didn't win the iHeart Award, which.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's too bad.

[Sean Fennessy]

That happens.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Maybe next year.

[Sean Fennessy]

What were the kind of qualifications. What were they looking at to determine?

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I guess a good question is who submitted us for the I Heart Award? Because we did not.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm not sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I assume that it costs money to be submit.

[Sean Fennessy]

Presumably.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but that's not one of those. Where we didn't fill out an application.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is watchwood crappens an iHeart show? It is not.

[Phil Lord]

It's a. It's like a Bravo reality recap show.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, I know that, but who distributes it? Like, what is the.

[Phil Lord]

I don't think it is, but maybe I'm mistaken.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Cool watch.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm not accusing anyone of dirty pool. I'm just asking questions. The Rewatchables was also nominated for what it's worth.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, but.

[Sean Fennessy]

But they were. It was submitted before CR Month. If they had known CR Month was coming, would have been a whole different kettle of fish.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This is hosted by Ronnie Caram and Ben Mendelkerson. Congratulations to them. I'm learning about them in real time. I do know about Bravo. You watch any Bravo shows?

[Sean Fennessy]

Nope. I watched many an episode of the Real Housewives franchise over the years, but Eileen has kicked that franchise in the last five years, so we never have it on anymore.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I've seen the meme where they scream take a Xanax, which I want to scream at you fairly often, but doing really well.

[Sean Fennessy]

Listen, I feel very calm.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's good.

[Sean Fennessy]

Feel very measured right now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, okay. So, Spider man, my youth is dead. Yeah, but Marty's coming back with a movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's right.

[Sean Fennessy]

My youth is alive.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Kiki's getting paid. Kiki's getting paid and reminding us all that sometimes you just gotta go chase that bag, you know?

[Sean Fennessy]

We lost an award, but we've gained what? An AI friend named Money. Okay, let's talk now about Project Hail Mary. This is, safe to say, the most anticipated movie of the year so far. Would you agree?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I would.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a new film from Amazon. Mgm. It's, as I said, directed by Lord Miller. It is. The screenplay is written by Drew Goddard, Based on the 2021 novel by Andy Weir, which is the same formulation we had from 2015's the Martian yes, a beloved movie on this show and a hugely successful movie. Award winning movie. Goddard adapted Weir's novel back then and this movie does have a lot in common with that movie. This new movie stars Ryan Gosling who also produced this film. Sandra Houler, Lionel Boyce, Ken Lung, Milana Vayntrub. The cinematography is by the great Greig Fraser, who you may have seen shooting the Dune movies recently. Charles Wood does the production design. Neil Scanlon, we will talk about him quite a bit because he did the creature effects on the film and the score is by Daniel Pemberton. Plot synopsis is as follows. Ryland Grace, the sole survivor on a desperate last chance mission to save humanity from an extinction level solar event caused by space algae known as Astrophageal, wakes up with amnesia on a spaceship and remembers his mission with the help of an unexpected alliance with an alien named Rocky. What'd you think of Project Hail Mary?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I really liked it. I think that the first half hour and a half is truly magical and then it keeps going. But that is true of many great movies and what it accomplishes, I think, both scale and production wise. And as you said in the intro, feeling made by humans, even if it is not always portraying humans as opposed to being inside a computer, is palpable and exciting.

[Sean Fennessy]

And

[Amanda Dobbins]

there is one element that they just have to get exactly right, which is Rocky the alien. And you know, I guess that's a little bit of a spoiler, but it's not because so I Met an Alien is in the trailer. And if they don't get that creature and that not just the actual recreation of the alien, but the characterization, the mood, if they can't use it in the story, then the story sucks. And they absolutely nailed it. I thought it really worked on me and I was charmed and emotionally invested in this alien in a way that I haven't really been invested in an alien since E.T. so, I mean, you don't spend that much time with aliens, you know, but they're clearly, they really owe a debt to many films, including E.T. and I think they get that and so the rest of the movie's flaws or missteps kind of float away for me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I think it's good to go into the movie expecting a little bit of pastiche that the movie very purposefully wants to remind you of the best versions of these movies. In fact, there's a moment when Ryland Gosling's character is attempting to communicate with Rocky and he literally sounds out the Close Encounters theme to him while Banging on the glass that divides the two of them. And the movie has a self consciousness about that in the way that I think a lot of Lord and Miller films have a very kind of. We're pulling together a lot of the vibes of things that we love. You know, they are similarly like recombinant filmmakers. You know, 21 Jump street is a movie that is like trying to have its cake and eat it too, and often does so successfully. The Lego Movie is another example of this. Their work is very much influenced and addled by pop culture. This movie, though, for them is a really interesting shift tonally because it does have some. Some of their trademark silliness. And Gosling is doing a lot of at times like Chaplin esque solo silent comedy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So is Rocky for that one?

[Sean Fennessy]

Rocky is as well. But there is also like a real sentimentality in this story and a real sincerity in this story about a lost person, a person with really no connections. And then what happens when you're millions and millions of miles away from home and you make a friend? And that stuff also really worked for me. I think the movie is beautiful in a way that very few mainstream Hollywood productions are. I think that craft that you're talking about, the way that the ships are designed, the way that they move through space, the way that the characters interact with each other physically is just unusually specific and considered and artful. And it's also pretty funny all the way through. It's pretty funny. There's a lot of laugh lines. Gosling is. I was just listening to Bill and Craig and Chris talking on the rewatchables about how Gosling is in that a tier of SNL hosts. He's kind of using that same muscle in this performance where he's, you know, doing some mugging and doing a lot of like talking into camera.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

But he's very adept at it and he sells it in the same way that Rocky has sold really well too.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But it's also different than like the full character actor Ken, or even Nice Guys or one of the other. The other comedic performances that he does where he's. He's being Gosling being a dope.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right, right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This is a leading manhunt. Yes, exactly. And he's just using. It's his innate charm and timing.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. This is in that Matt Damon, Paul Newman realm of like, camera's on you, you gotta carry your face has to carry this movie all the way through. And if you're not bought in on that as well as Rocky, then the movie won't work. We've both seen it twice now. Both times the same thing was true for me, and I think it was true for you, which is. It is a very epic tale with a lot of, like, we're going here and then we're going here. We're going here through space. It also has a very. An interesting shape, like an interesting structure, because in the novel, as I understand it, and this was explained to me by our pals Mal and Johanna, the flashbacks, as they are in the film, are really more like Ryland remembering moments in real time as he's going through the journey on the spaceship and remembering how he got to this point. The movie doesn't quite communicate it in that way. It doesn't quite feel like he's remembering something that has happened. It more just feels like a traditional flashback structure. But that structure, in addition to the extended nature of the mission, makes this movie feel long. Yeah, it is too long. And I'm usually a little reluctant to say that about movies because I like long movies. But there's something a little redundant in Act 3.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

That is like, my one kind of strike against it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They have to. It's not that they have to solve the same problem several times, but you can feel the moment where they're like, we need one more big set piece. You know, we need one more emotional resolution moment here. We need to do one more alien thing here. You can. You can feel them checking off the demands or what they think their various, like, plot building blocks are. And you're like, no, no, no. You don't actually. Like, we've gotten there. We understand all of this emotionally. We also are a little bit tired of the actual adventure stakes. So, you know, I think some of that they're just, like, trying to do a lot because they have three different things going on. They've got the flashback structure, they've got the actual save the Earth structure, and then they've got Grace, the Gosling character's, you know, emotional relationship and, like, buddy structure. Then there's also a thing where the movie ends about five different times, like, just literally. And I can. I have two different propositions of what shot the movie should have just ended on, just, like, stop and without even having to reshoot anything. And that would sort of help because it's not just that it is overstuffed, but it really doesn't know when to end. And so the last 15 minutes are really, really, really baggy and kind of over the top. And I think a little. You walk away with an impression of greater sentimentality. Than is maybe in the rest of the movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That it gets kind of a little lopsided at the end. I will say I rewatched the Martian. I went on House of R to talk about the Martian with them. And that movie is 2 hours and 20min, 25 minutes and same thing. Exact same thing. And bless Ridley Scott, who directed it. But it is also, by the time they're going on that last mission, which is another spacewalk, in order to do a very vital thing or else everyone dies. It's both stressful and you're just watching people spinning around and you're like, let's wrap this up. Let's go, let's go. So some of it may also be the nature of the source material.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Andy Weir likes an epic tale.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly. And likes a lot of science. And some of it is just, I guess, how movies are now.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I really liked the science component of this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did, too.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought it was simultaneously very specific but not intellectually overwhelming. Like, I thought it was pretty legible. I was by no means a good science student, and I don't host Science Corner on this show. But, like, there are jokes about xenon, you know, like, it is that kind of a movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is detailed. I think I'm really impressed with both. I've never read an Andy Weir book. Mal and Johanna have read both and were telling me a lot about them. And that's an interesting conversation to listen to, if you're curious. But I think I have now seen two novel adaptations, both adapted by Drew Goddard. So I think the combo of Andy Weir and Drew Goddard handle the science very smartly. It is always middle school science, even if they have to, you know, say a lot of words at first. It is whether it's growing a plant or recreating water or elements or, you know, every. Everything is like this. It's a cell is one of the big reveals. And it's like, you know, I can't tell you what mitosis is, but I know what a cell is. So it's something that is at least recognizable. And then the actual problems themselves are. Are so basic. Right. You either have to get off Mars, you got to get home, or you got to save the planet. Even the basic setup of this, which, you know, I'm sorry, the sun is dying, so it's getting colder. You know, that's not.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's fairly simple.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There are a lot of. They complicated a bit, and I think they do that in smart and interesting ways. But even like the science experiment that Gosling's character, Grace, runs in order. It's his big breakthrough, is like, built out of plywood and is very much like a diorama that you go to

[Sean Fennessy]

Home Depot and get licensed that your

[Amanda Dobbins]

parents had to help you make. When, by the way, I'm just absolutely dreading that when that day comes when we have to do the dioramas. No,

[Sean Fennessy]

you're an artist and a content creator.

[Phil Lord]

You're great.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know if I'm great with my hands. I'm certainly no Rocky. And even that was just. They use puppet shows to explain things to each other. Right. So there is so much both in the science that they choose, I think is very clever and accessible. And then the way that they have to communicate it. Yeah, that. That lends itself. It's just. It's understandable. And the other thing is that you. The. The flashback structure is very helpful in that you don't really ever have to wonder what time it is. It doesn't. It elides it. Cause, you know, there's like, past and present, so you don't have to worry about light years or where are they or what's happening or blah, blah, blah. It's. I thought it was very, very well done.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought so, too. On the one hand, I actually enjoyed the movie more the second time. I knew what I was getting in that respect, so I didn't feel like I was having to keep up with the plot in any meaningful way. On the other hand, I did start to have a few more questions about how much people had aged. How, for example, the coma process works when they send the astronauts into space. Well, it doesn't. Well, obviously they lose two astronauts in the flight. We are spoiling this movie at this point, if you're still listening. But does Gosling's character not age over that period of time in which he takes that journey?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't really know how all that works.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, absolutely. They just skipped up.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's a yada yada of those things.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, the most yada yada thing is there's a beautiful sequence where Grace and Rocky, you know, are starting to try to communicate and they do puppets. And then they say, like, this is the word for Rocky and this is the word for Grace. And he's using a machine and he's using Money, our favorite AI bot, to. To start a language machine. And then two seconds later, they're communicating as if they've been living together for years. And I was like, I think that would have taken A little longer.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it did. And they just cut that out. You know, I think the movie kind of acknowledges that. They're like, we gotta move this up a little bit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's, I think, 1,000% the right decision. And I was absolutely willing to go with the first time, and the second time, I didn't really care. You know, they've. There are other things that they've solved, but sure, they cut corners.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I think it's helpful. It's kind of what makes the Last kind of 25 minutes more frustrating because I think the movie mostly does a really nice job of not getting weighed down within. Well, then what would happen? Well, then what would happen? They don't have to kind of over explain all of those things. I do want to go back to both that weight of influence and also how it manifests in the movie. I mean, you can hear Phil and Chris talk about it, the very specific steps that they made to accomplish this. But I am obsessed with these movies and have been obsessed with them since I just talked to Steven Spielberg. I mean, his movies in this world definitely changed my relationship to science fiction, made me fall in love with these kinds of stories. This is a really, really high level version of it in terms of how it looks and feels. And, you know, there is, of course, a lot of CGI in the movie, but it almost always feels like you're in a thing that was built by a person.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

And that quality, whether we're on Grace's ship, whether we're on Rocky's ship, whether we're at the base with Sandra Hooler or in a bar on a boat, it always feels like a real place and a real thing. All of the things that Rocky sculptures that he makes out of his kind of solid xenon, clearly an artisan made those for the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And

[Sean Fennessy]

this is how it should be. I genuinely feel like this is if you. I know it's expensive and I know it's hard, but for me at least it really helps a movie like this feel like it's earning its believability. It's earning its setting and story structure. When it feels like Ryan Gosling is in a room with an alien.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Which to some extent he also was. Which to not. I mean, he was not. Listen, Wolverines and wolves are different things.

[Sean Fennessy]

What a week for you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the aliens are Rocky. The alien is not real. That I am Anna Dobbins know of. But again, I'm not Steven Spielberg. But they chose a puppet. You know, they didn't choose, like A green screen or a person with all of the motion capture stuff, it's a good choice. It's an is. And if it's anything else, then he's acting with some form of computer. And I think. And you don't get the physicality, which is such an essential part of, like, both of their comedies.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then. And then the comedy is what creates the chemistry that kind of is the foundation of the relationship, which is wonderful and, like, very moving. And I, like, teared up every single time. Like, it. It got me at 1000% work. And then the rest of the production design and the physical nature of the world takes its cues from that decision. Cause if, like, Rocky is real, a puppet, and then it's all just like, in the void, then what's, you know, I mean, what's the point?

[Sean Fennessy]

There are a couple of moments when the two characters hug, and they can only hug through this kind of apparatus. But when they hug, Rocky's in the. He's in the glass. You know, what are we doing?

[Amanda Dobbins]

How do you know when it's.

[Sean Fennessy]

But, like, you feel like you're watching these characters hug, which sounds like a. But, you know, Neal Scanlan, who, you know, designed all these creature effects. And what is the puppeteer's name who worked through it? Is it Ortiz?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, James Ortiz.

[Sean Fennessy]

James Ortiz. It's just a. It's a miraculous and odd little thing that they've made, you know, and it's kind of a rock alien, hence the Rocky name. Doesn't really have a face. His poseable thumbs only go down, which becomes a running gag in the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But, yeah, they use the design, or maybe that's in the book. And then the design, you know, meets exactly the inspiration. But it really is very funny. He uses a little rollerball to run around the ship and keep his environment. And that's just extremely funny.

[Sean Fennessy]

The other thing that's really fascinating about the movie is that Ryland Grace is not much of a character. Yeah, we don't really know much about him. The movie purposefully, I think, withholds a lot of information about what has come before. You get a little bit when he is first approached by Sandra Huyler's character to come experiment so that they can get a little bit more clarity on what's happening with this astrophage and why it is dimming the sun. And he kind of, you know, at one point he tells Rocky that he had a mate, and then he lost her because his head was in the clouds. And we know that now he's with Mark. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I hate Mark.

[Sean Fennessy]

That was really funny. I like that part a lot. There's a lot of really good laugh lines in the movie. But, you know, we learn a bit. Like, he's a middle school science teacher, even though he has a PhD and has some pretty dramatic ideas.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. And even that is used expositionally, like both, obviously, but, like, effectively, where we learn about Astrovage and why the Earth is in danger because he is explaining it to his group of middle school students who won't stop asking about it. And even there, he also. He has like, a real diorama in. In the classroom that he uses, like a physical explanation as opposed to screens.

[Sean Fennessy]

No iPads in those classrooms, you know?

[Phil Lord]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's how you know that it's a fantasy.

[Sean Fennessy]

But anyway, yeah, I like those choices and I think it is. It's kind of like more McQueen, Cary Grant style stardom from Gossing, where he's like, you don't need to know too much about this guy. His name is Roger Thornhill. He's been thrown into this world of north by Northwest. Go like. And Gosling, we bring a lot to a movie with him, and he brings a lot to a movie starring him. And he's just fun to be with for two and a half hours. You know, he really is in that rare class of actor. It's a relief to see him in something like this. Honestly, I was a little worried that it was gonna be the Gray man and the Fall Guy and variations on these things. And he's very well suited to this kind of a thing, that blend of serio comic drama, epic drama. There's a moment in the very first images of the movie in which we see the lights changing, the lights shifting in the ship, and we see this bold red and this bold blue that are very purposefully invoking 2001 the Space Odyssey. And that is no doubt on the minds of the filmmakers you mentioned, E.T. which is no doubt, as is Close Encounters. Interstellar is very much on the lines. But I liked what you said before about the simplicity of the science because it is almost the inverse of Interstellar, which is like kind of begging you to keep up with the wormholes and the fractals and this kind of mega science that is at the heart of that movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Very Nolan esque. Jonathan and Christopher.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. And this movie is more, like you said, a little bit more middle school style, I think. Also, like, we've seen Ryan Gosling in a space movie before. You know, this isn't the first time he's been an astronaut. And in first man, he's kind of like. That's sort of like the sad boy version of Ryland Grace. You know, Neil Armstrong, he's much more internal and has this kind of unresolved angst.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's flipped. He's, like, incredibly professionally and outwardly successful and, you know, like, internal crisis.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And cannot. And literally, you know, a man will do anything not to go to therapy. A man will literally go to the moon to not go to therapy, which is what happens in First Man. And then at the end, they just. They're staring at each other through the quarantine glass.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. The thing that really jumps out to me is watching. There's a moment in the film where it becomes clear that these two ships are gonna encounter one another. Right. That Rylan has realize that there's a foreign spaceship that is sending out a blip, which is basically like a message. And the way that the ships move in space.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I've never really seen that in a space movie before. In that specific way.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They were, like, gliding. It was almost like you were turning them on like an abacus or one of my children's rail toys where they just like, kind of dancing.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. And there's a rhythm to the way that they move. And it didn't feel like the way that the ships move in Star Wars. It didn't feel like the way that the ships move in Apollo 13. It didn't feel. It felt different. It looked different.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And it's hard to make something look New After 70 years, 80 years of space movies. Actually, this year is really funny. I have been trying to figure out a way to do something about the origins of science fiction at the movies. And 51 is the day that the Earth Stood Still. And there's one other classic. I can't remember which one, but that's really the set. That's the 75th anniversary of the dawning point of science fiction at the movies. There were other previous films like Metropolis and things like that, but how we know them. There's aliens, there's humans, there's us Mission control, and we're putting rockets in space. And all of our anxieties about the Cold War and. And all of these stories being introduced to us, and the idea of being able to still make something look and feel new in these worlds is really exciting for me and rewarding. I was reading a couple of reviews and I saw some tisking at Daniel Pemberton's score, which I thought was magnificent and is rhythmic and jazz, like in the first half, and then more kind of epic and choral in the second half. And I found both of those strokes to be really, really impressive. What did you think of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it understands that the movie is both a procedural and, you know, an emotional epic. And a lot of this film, even though it's set in deep space and was filmed on IMAX and is meant to see on the biggest screen possible, like, is a guy and a small alien in a room, you know, or they're looking at a cell, or they're doing very, very small things in rooms. And so I think that the bigger score especially communicates some of the grandness that is meant in this movie. They are still in space, even though you're just watching them float around in tubes for a while. So I liked it, but I particularly liked the percussive stuff.

[Sean Fennessy]

The first half.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And also it plays up the comedy, which this is. This is a very funny movie. And I find that comedies don't always have scoring or soundtracks that meet the level of the material.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's very true.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. It can often just take away or distract or not take it as seriously.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Pemberton, my favorite thing he's ever done is the Spider Verse scores. Obviously, he's worked with Lord Miller before because they produced those movies, and he is an incredibly variable composer. If you go and listen to his work on Spotify across the many films he's made, it's a lot of different styles, and he has clearly a lot of different influences. But I was really impressed by this. And, you know, speaking of Lord Miller, the other thing, too, is like. Like I said, it's been a long time since. Since they've directed a movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I mentioned Solo earlier in this episode, and they were directing Solo. They did direct chunks of Solo, and then they were fired by Lucasfilm and Ron Howard was hired to replace them. And one of the reasons why that movie is ultimately a nothing burger is that it's like two completely different filmmakers with completely different sensibilities smashing together a story and a script. Some of the suggestion in that story is that Lawrence Kasdan didn't really like the tone that Lord Miller were pursuing because he is kind of the author of Han Solo. He writes all the great Han Solo dialogue. And they were trying to do something different and presumably just much more in their tone. I've always wanted to see their version of Solo, just because it would have been a different kind of Star wars movie, but this movie does kind of feel like revenge for that experience, you

[Amanda Dobbins]

know, And I Mean and better for sure. Now that I've seen Star Wars.

[Sean Fennessy]

Definitely better than Solo.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day to day. But our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think, they weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW and the other drivers out there. Grab the wheel, do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn [e-mail] do you think people are going to like this movie? Or I should say, do you think people are going to love this movie? Cause it is a very big and expensive swing from Amazon. They have had a checkered past with their movie distribution. They're attempting now to be a real. We release 12 films theatrically per year studio. There's a gap. We could use the studio who's willing to do that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

You kind of can't get a bigger, more big tent. Original story. Obviously it is based on a novel, but this feels more like 2009 than it does 2026.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And it certainly feels like 2015. And people loved the Martian. The Martian made a tremendous amount of money.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it was like $500 million.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And I will say now that I have rewatched the Martian recently, I think this might be better than the Martian. The Martian.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's pretty close for me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which we love and really enjoyed and also had that feeling in 2015 of being like, wow, they just made a classic big budget adapted from a book studio movie. And it's Matt Damon and he's being a movie star. And then all these people gotta save this problem, you know, save this guy and solve this problem. But it's. It's baggy. Matt Damon isn't as funny as I remembered, though. It's not his fault. I just do think some of the Andy Weir character humor, like, we gotta science the shit out of this.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, which is.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think in its time it was very funny. And now, like, how is it aging that comic sensibility?

[Amanda Dobbins]

But it is just kind of funny to locate that. There is like a noticeable strain of humor to both of these that is like stands out. And anyway, people really like the Martian. I really liked the Martian. So theoretically they would also like this, which is the Martian and maybe slightly more complex, but also with a cute alien.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I don't know. The Martian, as I recall, was an October film, right? Yeah. It was released October 2nd and Project Hail Mary does kind of feel like an October movie. This is an interesting release date before this movie. We were in Vegas last April where they showed us the extended first look at this movie. And we were both like, whoa, holy fuck, this looks really cool. And I didn't even know this was coming. And that has me thinking about how there's usually one movie at the beginning of every year now that it becomes a movie that we talk about for 12 months at the Academy Awards. And last year it was Sinners. Couple years before that it was Top Gun. Couple years before that it was everything everywhere, all at once. I don't really know if this is a best picture contender. I think it is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think it is too. We went and saw it for a second time the night after the Oscars. And again, that first hour and a half, I was still very much in Oscar's mindset and shattered, you know, intellectually and emotionally. And I was like, oh, this is definitely. This is definitely an Oscars movie. There's so much to like about it. It's such a big scale. And we do have this precedent of, you know, big scale movies being released earlier in the year and making it all the way.

[Sean Fennessy]

Gravity being nominated for best picture. Like, there's some precedent for the kind of movie that it is too. Martian, obviously. Arrival. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I think it could be. I do.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is it too much of a comedy?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know. There are a lot. Ryan Gosling cries, like a lot in this. A lot. And he holds the camera just so. For a lot of it. I was absolutely dying laughing at both times at the close ups of him watching Sandra Hooler sing an emotional karaoke song. We don't have to spoil anymore. Even though it's been widely reported.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a great scene. Her performance is amazing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, she's amazing. But I mean, he's just sitting at the bar in a sweater that you turned to me halfway through and said, I need to buy this sweater. And he's got these rimless glasses and it is framed just so. And he's leaning just so for, you know, his. His movie star shot.

[Sean Fennessy]

The camera is looking at him looking at her.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But he knows it. And he's like, okay, here it is. Here's time for me to be Ryan Gosling and for everyone who showed up to see Ryan Gosling to get some Ryan Gosling. So he is doing all of that along with all of the puppet stuff. But I don't know, I guess it's. How much can you Market the. The Rocky of it all before. And because I was thinking about it, like, our children would love Rocky. They would be bored by the rest of it. But that's okay. Even the way he speaks is so funny. And they would, like, definitely laugh. There is a physical comedy element to it. And I think that you have. That is a real crowd pleaser, but you can't.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's the word for the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is a real crowd pleaser, but you can't. It feels like there's already too much in the trailer, you know of.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. You know, I will say, when the trailer first hit, I think you and I were both a little disappointed that we even learned of the existence of Rocky. But then you learn pretty quickly. It's about 45 minutes before Rocky shows up in the movie. But then he is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's there.

[Sean Fennessy]

He is as much the center of the movie as Grace is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They do. I think almost. It's 45 minutes before you get to Rocky. And then I think they do almost. It's 35, 45 minutes of just Grace and Rocky before you go back to Earth, which is another. I mean, again, this is just part of. There's so much to fit into this movie that, you know, they can't actually start the plot for an hour and a half. Cause they had to do all the setup and then they had to give you your Rocky time.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But you can't do without the Rocky time. Cause it's so charming.

[Sean Fennessy]

The second time around, there was a little bit of some plaintive moments of them staring at each other that are a little drawn out, but for the most part, I agree.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, they were doing the ET but then they were pointing.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, there's a lot of time spent in that tunnel that is built from ship to ship.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They gotta dance for more physical comedy.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think below the line, this movie's gonna do very well. There's definitely production design. Visual effects, maybe score. I don't know how you recognize the puppeteering world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Creature design.

[Sean Fennessy]

That is something that presumably it goes into production design.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think it goes into. I mean, Neil Scanlan has been nominated for visual effects.

[Sean Fennessy]

For visual effects.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I guess visual effects would be the place where that, like, where that work goes. But it does have that feeling of like a Mad Max Fury Road esque. Like there's a lot of places where they could recognize this movie in the awards. I'm very, very curious to see how well it does. The Martian made $630 million worldwide. Yeah, that's very good. If this movie makes $630 million, that's a huge success. In terms of the Oscar race, though, Dune Part 3 is coming out and it's unusual for two huge science fiction movies to be nominated for best Picture. In fact, I can't really think of a time when it's happened though.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let's see, it's in the 10 year run, so since 2009. What was in 2009? What was the year that like district whatever.

[Sean Fennessy]

District 13.

[Amanda Dobbins]

District 13. There weren't two that year.

[Sean Fennessy]

Maybe there were. I believe that was the. Was that ultimately the 2010 Oscars?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And then I'm looking at.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, District 9, not District 13. Oh, you're right. Avatar.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

District 9.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think Katniss Everdeen is from District 13.

[Phil Lord]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. Did you volunteer, guys? Hunger Games in the booth.

[Sean Fennessy]

District 12. Oh, would you volunteer as tribute for me and fight in the Hunger Games before you actually got to the screening of Project Hail Mary a little bit late and they showed the new Hunger Games trailer beforehand. And I was sitting there with Chris and I was like, I'm just in on this. I just think this movie looks good and I want to see it. I didn't really care for the last Hunger Games movie. I don't even love those previous films. But I'm interested.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The Martian was also nominated up against Mad Fury Road. Just which are different, but, you know,

[Sean Fennessy]

one's more like epic war movie in the desert. But you're right, they're not that far afield. Post apocalyptic for sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Would I volunteer for you?

[Sean Fennessy]

Would you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I think I have a way better chance than you do of

[Sean Fennessy]

surviving in the Hunger Games.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Training more. Pain tolerance higher.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm pretty shrewd.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm fairly ruthless though. And just. And there is a physicality to it. Respectfully. Like, you haven't been at the gym recently.

[Sean Fennessy]

I. Look, I feel like I'm doing very

[Amanda Dobbins]

well and I've been meeting people in Pilates class who listen to this. What's up, Chase? If you're listening, what's Chase's story? I saw Chase at Motivate. He was very friendly and he lives in the neighborhood. It's great. I was very excited.

[Sean Fennessy]

Nice.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There's usually one man in a Pilates class and I'm always a fan. I think it's very brave to be the one man in the Pilates class. And that was Chase.

[Sean Fennessy]

How do you feel when someone approaches you and says, hey, are you Amanda Dobbins? What do you do?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I usually introduce myself and ask their name. I'm happy about it. Can I tell you about what happened last night where I was out to dinner at Queens with friends and a nice man named David came over with a Negroni in hand and put it down for me because he's like, I would. I needed to bring you a Negroni. That's my best friend for life, David. So I feel amazing. Also, by the way, it was my third Negroni and look at me here. And thriving.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wow, that's impressive.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you.

[Sean Fennessy]

I had zero Negroes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Once again, I've been training, right? I've been in the gym, I've been at the bar. I'm ready so I could win Hunger Games.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't think there's a bar component in the Hunger Games, but you don't know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What do they have to drink?

[Sean Fennessy]

There's no Negroni challenges.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What do they have to drink though?

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, we gotta ask cats.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You have access to fresh water.

[Sean Fennessy]

We gotta holler at your girl. Jen Lawrence this episode is brought to you by Walt Disney World Resort, the most magical place on earth. Imagine a world of culinary capers in Remy's Ratatouille Adventure. Or a world of mystical rivers and flying banshees in Pandora. The world of Avatar. Or a world of dazzling lights under the stars in an all new nighttime parade. Disney Starlight. Dream the night away. Well, you don't have to imagine it. You can live it. Because infinite worlds await at Walt Disney world Resort. Visit disneyworld.com to learn more and discover a world of magic this summer across all four theme parks. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great. Impressions reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bullspend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn Ads generates the highest roas of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. You can target by company, industry, job title and more. So cut the bull. Spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com thebigpicture that's LinkedIn.com thebigpicture Terms and conditions apply. Prose Dynamite really, really good. A lot of fun. Yeah. What a great way to kick off. What's it tracking the post Oscars. 60 million, I think in that would be good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Even though I know that tracking is broken.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think that's just domestic as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, it's gonna take a while to get up to 250 or whatever this movie cost, but let's go to my conversation with Phil Lord and Chris Miller because they'll tell you all the ways in which this movie was built and shaped and looks the way that it does. For the first time. Phil Lord and Chris Miller, thank you both for being here. It's been a minute since you guys have made a movie. Curious. When did the book hit your desk? And then how do you decide you want to direct something?

[Phil Lord]

Let's see. So Ryan sent us the book with

[Chris Miller]

Amy as a manuscript before it was published. Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Ryan Gosling and Amy Pascoe.

[Phil Lord]

That's right. Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

To you, they're Ryan and Amy. To us.

[Phil Lord]

Yes, exactly.

[Chris Miller]

And we had a pre existing relationship with Andy Weir, our producing partner. Adithya Sud discovered the Martian when it was an E book and put together

[Phil Lord]

that movie and brought Drew on. So when we got the manuscript, Adithya said, guys, this is your next movie. And then we read it in one night and we're like, you're right.

[Sean Fennessy]

What is it that he saw that made him say that to you?

[Phil Lord]

I think it's. First of all, we've made a lot of movies about friendship and people whose friendship is the reason they can do something really hard. Our movies are, we like to say, 51% optimistic. And this novel is so affirming. And we try to make movies that help people imagine goodness. And that's what the book did.

[Chris Miller]

When I read it also, it seemed really hard and that's kind of exciting for us. You're like, oh, the co star of this movie is an alien with no face and no eyes, no mouth and speaks in whale song. Fantastic. And you have to fall in love with it. Great. And the spectacle, the scale, the massiveness of it, you could just feel it on the page. But really it was like the emotional heart of it. And it was crazy that by the end, with all the twists and turns and surprises that the last third of that book has, like how I found myself, like, oh my God, I would die for this rock. And you're like, I don't know how he did it, but we have to make you feel that way.

[Phil Lord]

I got confident reading about that. He had no face. Yeah, I was like, oh, we know

[Chris Miller]

how to do it. We know how to do this. And I feel like somebody else might not do it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right. What do you mean when you say that?

[Phil Lord]

So Ragi, the co star, alien, co star of the movie in the novel, has five limbs and no face and no mouth and no eyes. And he speaks in whale language. And so we, you know, most people would be. Most people who finance movies would be really scared by that. They would say, oh, he has no eyes. But the eyes are the window to the soul. How could you possibly relate to a character? And I was like, well, I don't know. Like every Pixar movie opens with like a lamp, you know, being a parent, right? I was like, we human beings are so good at projecting personality onto inanimate objects. That's why every car has like a smiling grill on the back and little light eyes or windscreen eyes. And so I was like, oh, we know how to help the audience project a personality onto a rock.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, I'm curious. The hard part that you mentioned, what does that mean to you practically? Is it the scale of the movie? Is it space? Is it just the translation of the rock?

[Chris Miller]

Well, it's like a lot of things. There's. This has a lot of zero microgravity, which means a lot of wires and a lot of technically complicated choreography. We wanted to have Rocky really be there and have it be a creature that was puppeted so that Ryan would have a scene partner and so that we could capture Rocky, really, and not have him have to act with a tennis ball on a stick. So we knew that that meant, okay, now we have to. This thing's gonna have to be operated by a team of five puppeteers that we call the Rocketeers, led by James Ortiz. But now we're gonna have to find a way for us to find a place for them to even exist to operate the puppet, right?

[Phil Lord]

It means we have to build the sets five feet off the ground, right?

[Chris Miller]

So that they don't block the light.

[Phil Lord]

And by the way, the two main characters are always separated by glass, right? And so that means that, like, oh, it's gonna reflect all the cameras. It's going to make really gnarly bright lights blocking your view. It's gonna require tons of touch up. Meanwhile, we're gonna have to erase puppeteers, but behind glass. So it just made the whole movie. It's a book about overcoming odds, right? Impossible odds and solving problems. And so it meant that the making of the to be a way to experience the story ourselves and that we had to solve a lot of problems by gathering a bunch of smart people and working together.

[Chris Miller]

We also create our own obstacles. We make things even more complicated. In the book, the ship has centrifugal gravity, but all the rooms are sort of stacked like a rocket ship or a lighthouse. And we thought it might be interesting if it had one orientation of gravity when it was traveling like a lighthouse, but then when it was, it separated and started spinning, that it would turn on its side so that it wouldn't be vertical, it would be horizontal, and the wall would become the floor, so we'd have a secondary version of gravity. So that meant that the ship, which we built in its entirety, had to be oriented vertically and then disassembled and reassembled horizontally each room of the ship, which was an insane thing to do.

[Phil Lord]

But two of the hods are Greig Fraser, incredible visual cinematographer, and Paul Lambert, who's, like, won four Oscars for visual effects. And they looked at us one day and said, this is the most complex film we've ever worked on. And we made two dunes. And so there's something about those obstacles that make that get us excited. I don't know if I ever told you this. I have a close family friend who had Parkinson's, and when he was struggling to move around, one of the things he would say to us is like, will you put your foot and place it in front of my feet? And then he was able to step over it, but it was only by placing an obstacle in front of him that would get him over when he got stuck. And I always thought that was a really interesting thing.

[Chris Miller]

Sometimes limitations or hard problems to solve make you do something that you haven't seen before. And that's really what we're always trying to do with everything, is make something that feels new and original.

[Sean Fennessy]

You started to talk about gravity and the construction of the ships and the way that they operate. And the movie is. I've been told that it is less scientific than the book, which is tremendously scientific. But as a movie watcher, I was like, this is deeply rooted in science. And there are extended passages where there is a lot of conversation that is scientifically based.

[Phil Lord]

Yes. And like, long passages with no dialogue where they just, like, put things in pipettes and centrifuges.

[Sean Fennessy]

Totally. It is its own little science experiment in that way. But I'm curious how you guys thought about how an audience might feel about that. What's the line between keeping it true versus keeping it coherent and how you work through that with Ryan too?

[Chris Miller]

Well, we wanted all the science to be real, and we wanted. Wanted other than the invented stuff from the book, like an alien species and an alien.

[Phil Lord]

Even those things, we were like, the novel is true, right? Everything that Andy established, that's real. Let's pretend everything is real.

[Chris Miller]

But we also didn't want. This isn't a lecture. This is an piece of entertainment, right? This is supposed to be fun and exciting and entertaining for everybody. So how. We didn't have the advantage of the book where you can hear Ryan Lynn Grace's thoughts, so we had to show the audience what was happening in a way that was easily digestible, entertaining and fun. And so that was the real challenge of the movie. But thankfully, we, you know, we test our movies with friends and family and strangers more than probably anybody. We very like thoroughly.

[Phil Lord]

We probably screened this movie 11 times before we locked the cut, right?

[Chris Miller]

And every time, it was sort of like, is anyone confused? Is anyone bored? Is anyone. Where's the parts that people are. Are feeling like either they're losing engagement or they're not following what's happening? And so how can we simplify this? How can we make it interesting and cinematic and tell you without having a lecture? And so that's how we ultimately find the right balance. We shoot too much, and then we hone it into something that's entertaining.

[Phil Lord]

But we imagine that the audience would go with it because it's kind of like watching Refifi or Thief or something where you're watching someone crack a safe or dig a hole for 20 minutes in the floor, and you're just kind of interested in the process, in watching people do a job well, like one of our favorite genres of cinema. And so we thought, well, if the. It's actually something learned from watching Denis first Dune movie. If the emotional story is palpable, then you will pick up the lore. And in our case, the lore is the science. You'll pick it up as you go, and you'll look for it and try to understand it because you're so invested in the character.

[Chris Miller]

And if you don't follow the ins and outs of the science of the story, it doesn't matter. You're following the plot and the characters, and that's what you care about. Is he gonna get the thing that he needs? I don't know exactly why he needs the thing, but I really want him to get it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

I mean, he seems to think he needs it.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's true. There are, like, xenon gags, though, so you are still touching the very specific languages I always call what you're describing ingenuity porn. Like, there is something about exciting about watching someone solve something, and this movie is full of that. Yeah, the legacy of space movies is very intense. There's like hundreds and hundreds of movies about space, but then there's also like, four or five movies that stand way above those other movies.

[Chris Miller]

It's true.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I do feel like your movie is really grasping to be like, I'm one of those four or five movies. You know?

[Phil Lord]

It is. It's kind of like a kid who shows up early at the party.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, time will tell, you never know, right? But I though even just the way that objects moved in space, I was like, this feels. Feels different. This feels like the energy is different. The way that the objects are operating feels different in a way that it is like communing with the history of space movies, but not imitating. I don't know if that was intentional. I'm just like, we're definitely.

[Chris Miller]

We wanted to do our own thing, right? We didn't want to. We don't want to do an homage to anything. We wanted it to be its own movie and have its own space.

[Phil Lord]

And I think we often said, this movie is not a Mac. It's a PC. It's not slick, it's not shiny. The guts of the ship are on the outside. You can like. It's messy. He's messy. You know, it was like, really important to us and to Ryan to represent what, like, a regular person would be like in this scenario. And so we were like, oh, yeah, there's no one else on this ship. He would just throw all his, like, crap on the ground, and then it would be a huge problem when zero G hit. And suddenly it was, like, floating around everywhere. And this was a great thing about working with Greg. Fraser is like, he is an amazing dp, but he's not a perfectionist. He's an imperfectionist. And so he's always like, I want to find something kind of messy or sloppy or imperfect about the image. And so it all kind of coalesced around making space a little bit more tactile and weirdly relatable.

[Chris Miller]

Right? Like, it feels like. Like immediate and intimate and you're. And it was like, it felt sort of found in a way and less formalist. Like, that was sort of. We. At every scene, we would do what we called, like, Greg Vibes Pass, which was after we felt like we got the scene, we were like, okay, we're going to do one more. We're just going to run the scene. And then Greg's going to come with a camera on his shoulder and just sort of find the moments. And that was what was cool, was that, you know, because we had the sets really built and there was no green screen in the movie whatsoever.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Chris Miller]

And because we had a real rocky what it didn't matter the scene. He could go anywhere and find a shot and line up something that felt like it was discovered and it didn't feel. It felt like, you know, it had a sort of little magic to it. And a lot of that stuff made it into the movie because it just feels different from other space stuff.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I was gonna ask you, what percentage of the vibes shots do you think actually made it into the final cut?

[Phil Lord]

A lot. Because that's the hard thing to do when you're making a movie that requires so much planning, is for it to be driven by intuition. So we're trying to create the conditions that allow Greg to shoot 360. Basically, Greg lit most of the scenes in such a way that he could point the camera anywhere and create the conditions for Ryan to improvise to respond directly to his scene partner and have things feel more captured and spontaneous. Which is like so hard to do when you're like strung up on wires. But we wanted space to be. We wanted the movie to be playful.

[Chris Miller]

And it requires a lot of planning to be able to have that freedom.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Chris Miller]

And so you have to like, we like pre shot all the space stuff virtually first is make sure that we cast had the walls of the set can move out that we needed and we had the right size and shape of everything and that we were going to be able to be using the right equipment. And, you know, and when we did, but that allowed us to be free when we were shooting. And then similarly, like when we did wire stuff, like, there was like. There's a very tropey version of space where everyone's on like a wire and going slow motion, like they're in a ballet or a bad high school production of Peter Pan or something.

[Phil Lord]

When we talked to astronauts, they said it's not like that. Like you're suspended in the air, but, like, you move at regular speed and it's clumsy. You can get stuck in the middle if you're too far from the walls. So, like, you're constantly pushing yourself off one wall and bonking into another.

[Chris Miller]

And the first few days that you are experiencing microgravity, you are a total klutz and you're smashing into everything. And so we, you know, and so we set up this rig, which was on where Ryan was in a spin ring. And we had, like, flexibility with the way that the wires could move so that he could spin his body in any direction, flip around, basically do air parkour. And we'd be like, okay, you gotta get from here to there and just, like, do however you would, and give him the freedom to sort of, like, mess his way to the spot. And that kind of, like, planning and preparation to allow for freedom is, like. It's so much harder than you might imagine.

[Sean Fennessy]

Can you tell me a little bit about directing Ryan to make this work? And, like, how much did he like acting opposite a puppet? Was it difficult to do that? Like, you hear a lot of, obviously, a lot of stories about actors acting opposite tennis balls, like you mentioned. And this is different, but it is also. It's a different performance style.

[Phil Lord]

It is. You know, and for Ryan, I think he was such a big believer in the book. He was excited and scared, which is where you want to be. Sidney Pollack would ask his hods when he started a movie, he would say, do you want to get scared? And the whole point of it is, again, those obstacles. So I think Ryan is like us in that. He likes having those provocations from the challenge. And then he's such an important part of Rocky's performance. His belief that Rocky is a person and that Rocky has status in the scenes is so critical. One of my favorite things about Ryan is how he, as a handsome movie star who's really smart and a great filmmaker, he always confers status to the characters around him, even when he's on snl, the way his clown is to be the low man in the scene. And so when he's around Rocky, he's going to, hey, I'm sorry I'm talking so much. I just really want to be here. He's trying to get on. He's playing get on the team. And so that's what we talked about as a. The four of us. Us, Ryan and James Ortiz, who plays Rocky, is like, you're older than him, Rocky. You think you're smarter than him. You're certainly not as clumsy as he is, and you pity him.

[Chris Miller]

And I think the big difference is that you had this actual performance that's coming with James and the Rocketeers, what we call this team of puppeteers. And there was this back and forth. They could improvise and would improvise scenes for long, long stretches. And you could get these real reactions from Ryan that are like, he was surprised by the thing that James did and was tickled by it or surprised by it or thrown back by it. And then Rocky was reacting to whatever it is that, that, that Ryan did. And, and like, and James, the voice that he was doing on set was the voice that we used in the movie. And so their banter is natural because he has a real scene partner. It's not him imagining himself having sex.

[Phil Lord]

Right. So you're responding to each other and suddenly like you stop acting or having

[Chris Miller]

you start reacting guys, you start just behaving. Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm always interested to talk to directing duos. Yes. Because it's a unique relationship and division of labor is always interesting to me around this. You guys have known each other for a very long time. You guys were working together for a very long time. But I'll sometimes ask writing duos, are you back to back in a room is one person standing and the other person talking? But when you're on set, who's responsible for what are you changing every day, what you do?

[Phil Lord]

We're side by side at a monitor. Often the communication is non verbal and whomever is most preoccupied with something in that moment is the one who's taking charge and running onto the scene.

[Chris Miller]

We try not to have two people run up to an actor and give thoughts because then it can be like the contradictory. And so usually when we've gotten onto set, we have worked and reworked that scene and we know exactly what we want to get out of it.

[Phil Lord]

And we've ridden together. That's one rule we have is we ride together. Together on the way to the stage

[Chris Miller]

so that we can talk about the day's work.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

And then, and then we like, are watching and then we can look at each other and go like, needs to be a little faster. Right? Okay, I'll go, I'll go talk to him. Talk to him. And then, you know, then. Or it'll be like one of us would be like, I feel like, like it should be. They should be yelling. And I'm like, oh. But I feel like they're too mean. And like, let's do the, the angry take now. And then we'll do a safety. That's like a sweetie pie take. And then we'll figure it out in the editing room. But we sort of like allow that each version to have its own moment. So we go like, okay, let's go and let's, let's just like really let them have it and then come back around after that. Okay, that was great. Now just to try a different Version. Let's try one where you're like trying to be kind to each other and

[Phil Lord]

then give them whiplash by like alternating exactly ideas. You try to like, start with one and then guide towards the other. And I think for, for us, like, this relationship is not on like the one that Ryan has with Rocky or with Ava Stratt, played by Sandra Houler, is. You have to accommodate one another's quirks. And what you're hoping to do is to magnify one another's differences. Not like a Lord Miller movie. Cannot be the Venn diagram subset of the things that we both agree on. It has to be the full, like both circles and the part in the middle so that you get a broader set of ideas and you don't worry about editing them. You just go. You just have to trust and embrace what the other guy is interested in.

[Sean Fennessy]

Would you know how to define what are the things in your own individual parts of the circles?

[Chris Miller]

Hmm, hard to say.

[Phil Lord]

I mean, it's depends on the moment, right? And then we sometimes switch, right? Because like, if I'm, like always, if Chris gets super upset, I immediately become a peacemaker. Like a married couple. Basically. Some of your functions atrophy because the

[Chris Miller]

other person gets stronger. Yang someone's yin sometimes, but we're usually coming at it from the same place. And it's only about 5% of the time that we're seeing it slightly differently. And so we just try to get as much as we can and then figure it out in the editing room.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah, I'm sorry if that's an unsatisfying answer. Do you have a good answer?

[Chris Miller]

We don't really. We don't really.

[Phil Lord]

We don't divide labor.

[Chris Miller]

We do sometimes in writing. What we'll do is we'll talk, talk, talk, talk about the scenes and whoever's got a clearer idea of the scene, they'll write that scene and someone else will write the other thing. And then we'll swap pages and they'll get back together and we'll talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And then like figure out something and then similarly, like, take turns on stage.

[Phil Lord]

When we ran a TV show room, like, we thought that there was a great value in group writing and also a great value in individual writing and concentration and just the things that pop into your head and that you accept without being challenged. And I think we tried to balance that and have a little bit of both.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm curious also about the tone. I've had this nice experience of showing my five year old some of your movies, she's not 22 jumps. She's not there yet. But who would not be the first

[Phil Lord]

five year old to see that film?

[Sean Fennessy]

Probably true. But you know, even 22 Jump street and the Lego Movie and Cloudy, like, they all. They have a vibe, they have a tone, they have a sensibility to them.

[Phil Lord]

They're friendly.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, they are. And they're antic and they're excitable in a good way.

[Phil Lord]

Yes, that's true.

[Sean Fennessy]

And this movie has some of that, but not all of that. Like it is different. And I was kind of curious like what it was like to confront material and try to make sure that you're putting your, your stamp on it, but maybe not get in its way as well because you have your own sensibilities. But this pre existing material is here. How did it feel doing that?

[Chris Miller]

I mean, you really want to honor this book. We were so blown away by the story and the tone and the vibe of the book. Luckily, the book is doing a lot of things that we like to do, which is like, it's funny, it's exciting, it's really emotional. It's about a friendship and all this stuff. So it's in our wheelhouse of things that we like. And so we didn't really think too much about like adjusting the or anything. Yeah, just like this is what the scene is, this is how the scene goes. And you know, like what's cool about human beings is that we can laugh and cry right on top of each other. And the best dramas make you laugh and the best comedies make you cry. And so, so if you make a movie that makes you feel all of the feelings, you've laughed, you've cried, you've been excited, you were scared, you were on the edge of your seat, you were curious, you had all. Everything. And then you come out of that movie going like, wow. I just felt. I went on a ride and I had a whole experience of feelings. And then you feel like it was worth going to the theater for.

[Sean Fennessy]

What was the single hardest thing to capture in the movie?

[Phil Lord]

Like hard, fun hard, or like hard hard?

[Chris Miller]

Like, like I would say, I'm curious so many things that were hard in this movie, but. But one thing that was, it took a while to R and D, but when we got it, it was, it was crazy. Magical was. So there's a scene when they're collecting astrophage, which is the sort of space algae that's eating the suns and you can only see them in infrared light. And so Ryan's character's out on the hull of the ship collecting a bunch of this astrophage, and he's surrounded by this invisible thing. And we sort of get a moment to visualize what an IR camera would be seeing and what's actually all around him. And the way that we did that was you take a filter out of the camera that's blocking the IR light so that it is an IR camera. And it made this beautiful pinkish reddish color thing. And what we did was we put Ryan on stage surrounded by a bunch of chicken wire filled with infrared lights that were sparkling. And then we had Greg built an

[Phil Lord]

aquarium, sort of like a double glass window with a hose dripping water through

[Chris Miller]

it in front of a handheld camera. And then he would sort of stand around Ryan, who was, like, going like this in this chicken cage. But he couldn't see anything because he couldn't see the lights because they're invisible to the naked eye.

[Phil Lord]

It looks ridiculous to the naked eye. And then when you look on the

[Chris Miller]

monitor, it's this beautiful thing with all these, like, bokeh lights flickering everywhere, all around, like, surrounded by it. And you're, like, watching the monitor and then watching reality.

[Phil Lord]

If you look on the. You walk onto the stage, like, Amy Pascal walked onto the stage. There's, like, a huge spaceship over there taking up most of the stage. And in the corner, a bunch of dorks, like, crowding around this, like, cage

[Sean Fennessy]

that we crowd around, right?

[Phil Lord]

And we're all going like, oh, my God, it's incredible. I'm seeing heaven. And she's like, what? What are you losers doing? And then we showed her the monitor, and she lost her mind.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's. That's really good problem solving. Did you have to do, like, 10 other things to figure out?

[Phil Lord]

We wound up shooting that, like, really late in the schedule because on the day we planned to do it, we didn't have a good enough answer methodology to get. We were just, like, trying. We like, well, let's try. We were kind of winging it, and we're like, let's cut bait and do it for real.

[Chris Miller]

Like, the lights need to, like, interact with his body and light him up as they're lighting, or else it'll look fake. And so we were like. We tried a bunch of different versions, and it wasn't quite getting there. So then it built the cage.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

One thing that the movie has that a lot of great space movies have is an incredible score.

[Chris Miller]

Pemberton.

[Sean Fennessy]

Daniel Pemberton score is very memorable, and it feels essential. And I'm just, like, wondering when did he come in? At what point do you have music? Is it before, after shooting? Is he looking at a cut and then adding.

[Phil Lord]

So during shooting, we asked Daniel, we were shooting in London, and we just said, come by the set and just see what we're up to and just write a few sketches. Because sometimes Ryan likes to perform with music. And so we had all these sequences that were silent or without much dialogue. So we were like, let's just whip something up. And one of those pieces is in the movie. And so it gave us a feel. And the other thing we discussed with Daniel was I don't want Ryan to feel alone. We want him to feel like the entire earth is rooting him on. And so that's why it's full of choirs and lots and lots of players. He brought in a bunch of school children to stomp and clap for the percussion. His kids from his classroom were still part of his consciousness, because it just didn't. Again, we kept wanting the movie to be affirming and warm and feel like you were. We were all in this together. And so one of the early things that happened is he found a leaky faucet in his friend's apartment flat. Pardon me, because he's English. And it became one of the signature themes of the movie, is what opens the movie.

[Chris Miller]

It's like, when you turn it a certain way, it would go. And he was like, I gotta record this. And he recorded it, different pitches of it, and then turned it into music.

[Phil Lord]

And so the melody that winds up. So that's kind of a spooky sound. And what we talked about was, like, it can't sing a spooky song. Like, Ryan is waking up in great distress. He has no idea where he is. He's in a weird amniotic sack outfit that we made for him. And he's upset. I don't need the music to tell me I'm upset. I need the music to tell me that this guy is gonna go somewhere, that we're rooting for him and he's worthy of great things. He's going to do great things, like a call to action and. And figuring that stuff out was a real back and forth, trial and error process.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think his music in the Spider Verse films is also amazing. So it's like a really nice little union that you guys have going with him.

[Phil Lord]

The scores are always really playful. I think for this one, it's like we all knew what was possible and that it could be one of Daniel's great scores. And he knew it too. And I think we put a lot of effort into trying to make it work.

[Chris Miller]

And he worked really hard on it and totally nailed it, in my opinion. My unbiased opinion.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sean Fennessy]

You guys are both movie fans. Movies like this are not that common anymore. And I love how you just described for 30 minutes how you made this movie. Basically, practically, you built everything. It looks just more real because it is more real. And I think people really relate to that. But that's hard, and that's more expensive than ever. Feel pressure about the movie being a success.

[Phil Lord]

Of course. Why wouldn't we?

[Chris Miller]

You want to make sure that they can still make movies like this in the future. Right?

[Phil Lord]

But the bet you have to make is a. You're going to make someone's favorite movie, and you have to be able to live with that if it doesn't hit. And the other thing is, you go well on average. I know that we can make something that appeals, and that's smart. It makes you feel walking out of the theater, you know, the bar we have to clear. Every movie has to clear is undeniable greatness. It is the truth of, like, where the audience are. Somebody told us that really early in our career is like the bar anything. It was television executive.

[Chris Miller]

If you're doing something new, if you're doing something original, it has to be great, or it's not gonna, like, make it past, like, the everything else, all the big franchises.

[Phil Lord]

People need to walk out of the theater and call their friend and be like, oh, my God, you have to see it. I' all the movies that we grew up with that we loved. ET Little Shop of Horrors, Star Wars. Those are movies I remember my dad seeing. He's done that for two movies. Little Shop of Horrors. He's like, we're taking your mother to this tomorrow night.

[Chris Miller]

Right?

[Phil Lord]

And then the other movie was South Park.

[Sean Fennessy]

Bigger, Longer, Hunger. Hell, yeah.

[Chris Miller]

I don't know why the two classics.

[Phil Lord]

We're bringing your mother tomorrow, you maniac. But there is. That's where you have to get to. So I think every hod Every. You know, every day on set, we are trying to discover moments that make you want to bring your friend.

[Chris Miller]

And it was like everybody on the crew felt like they were. Felt like they were doing something special. And so they put a lot of heart and soul and ideas into it, and everybody really cared. And I think you can tell we

[Sean Fennessy]

end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen? Have you guys seen anything good lately?

[Chris Miller]

Oh, I've Seen a bunch of good stuff. Trying to think.

[Sean Fennessy]

Last one.

[Phil Lord]

I'm trying to give you an answer that's not obvious. Not super obvious. We are at the tail end of award season.

[Chris Miller]

I've been catching up on something.

[Sean Fennessy]

Could be old or new.

[Chris Miller]

I tell you what I just saw. I just watched all the Oscar animated shorts because voting has begun. Yes, they were great.

[Sean Fennessy]

I just finished them too. Yes. You don't have to say your favorite, but maybe can you talk about a couple of them? Yeah, because they're fresh in my mind as well.

[Chris Miller]

There was Papillon, which was like beautiful painting and repainting story about a swimmer. And I thought it was. I watched them with my kids and my daughter especially was really interested in the process of how that was done. It was beautifully done and like a beautiful story. I mean, they were all really good, so. But that one was just from a technique standpoint I thought was really, really beautiful.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I just watched that last night. Great timing on that. What about you?

[Phil Lord]

The last great thing I saw, I went to the CityWalk IMAX and saw Crime 101. And particularly they have these unbelievable shots of the 101 freeway. Not considered the most beautiful, beautiful subject to phone.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not our favorite place in the world either.

[Phil Lord]

And normally a place you're stuck in traffic. And you know, Bart is a filmmaker we got to know in London while we were shooting. And just to see the way he turned that into poetry and like spun the camera and took the whole theater for this crazy ride. I just thought he's. Thought he was masterful.

[Sean Fennessy]

I like that. Yeah, that movie looks incredible.

[Phil Lord]

It looks incredible. And it's like we love a heist movie. It's a good old fashioned, like crime picture where the characters and their relationships are in the foreground. You know, it's like the thing you. It's a one Last job movie. Another one of my favorite sub. Sub genres. Yeah. And it makes. And it's LA for la. Makes LA look great. You know, it's. It's such a pleasure to watch that picture.

[Sean Fennessy]

Bill, Chris, congrats. Thanks, guys.

[Chris Miller]

Thank you so much.

[Phil Lord]

Thank you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thanks to Phil and Chris. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for production support. We'll be back on Monday with a special conversation. See you then. Monster Energy.

[Phil Lord]

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[Phil Lord]

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