‘Springsteen: Deliver Me From Nowhere’ and the ‘Music Biopic’ Mount Rushmore

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture

Episode: ‘Springsteen: Deliver Me From Nowhere’ and the ‘Music Biopic’ Mount Rushmore
Date: October 24, 2025
Hosts: Sean Fennessey, Amanda Dobbins
Guests: Chris Ryan (CR), Yossi Salik
Special Interview: Mary Bronstein
Main Topics: Review of "Deliver Me From Nowhere" (Springsteen biopic), music biopic discourse, Mount Rushmore of music biopics, parenthood/motherhood in cinema, interview with Mary Bronstein ("If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You")

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Scott Cooper’s “Deliver Me From Nowhere,” the Bruce Springsteen-Nebraska biopic starring Jeremy Allen White, exploring why it fails to transcend music biopic clichés and what could have made it more resonant. The conversation detours into the persistent hurdles of music biopics and the panel builds their Mount Rushmore of the genre, discussing best and worst approaches. The episode also includes an in-depth interview with Mary Bronstein about her new A24 film "If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You," examining the challenges of depicting motherhood on screen.

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Deliver Me From Nowhere: Review & Dissection

Movie Basics & Setup

• Scott Cooper directs, based on Warren Zanes’ nonfiction about Springsteen’s Nebraska era.
• Cast includes Jeremy Allen White (Bruce), Jeremy Strong, Paul Walter Hauser, Odessa Young (composite love interest).
• The panel: Sean, Amanda, CR, Yossi—all with varying levels of Boss fandom and music biopic expertise.

Overall Impressions (02:53)

• Yossi opens by forcing herself to give a compliment:
  “It’s cool. It’s not a cradle-to-the-grave. They tried something artsy with the black and white. Was it effective? No. But did they try? Yes.” (03:09)
• Amanda’s take:
  “This is straight up not a movie...we were giggling throughout at the absolute silliness and cliché nature.” (05:16)
• Chris Ryan:
  “There just wasn’t a movie in this, and maybe it was just, like, a cool idea at a cool time.” (07:34)

Specific Critiques and Missed Opportunities

Character & Story Issues

• Lack of compelling female characters: “There’s simply one all-female character in this composite.” (Yossi, 04:47)
• Obvious narrative clichés, overreliance on flashbacks:
  “It is attempting to be the opposite of Walk Hard and it inadvertently commits every sin. Like, the flashback stuff is so bad.” (Sean, 17:16)
• Uninspired depiction of artistic creation:
  “I just think this thing that I love about Bruce Springsteen is how he makes very specific, detailed storytelling into universal themes. And this movie felt like the inverse of that.” (CR, 14:09)
• Missed dramatic and emotional beats from Zanes’ book (compared scenes, richer real-life background omitted).

Springsteen Lore & Artistic Stakes

• Book’s real drama (Bruce’s radical left-turn, “reverse going electric”) missing from the movie.
• Too much “musician gear talk” with little context for the uninitiated.

CR: “Warren’s thesis is that this is the biggest left turn in pop music history...it’s like a reverse going electric for Dylan. And that’s not what this movie’s about at all.” (08:49)

Moments that Work

• Jeremy Allen White’s on-stage Springsteen moments (“leaves Earth” playing Born to Run, 11:29).
• Some music performances capture the essence but the film “punishes” the audience by holding back.

On Performances

• Jeremy Allen White: Brooding, physically convincing, but overall shallow character depth. “It feels like Carmy landed in Bruce Springsteen’s life” (28:54)
• Jeremy Strong: Performance described as oddly self-conscious and lacking flair (32:20).
• Odessa Young: Doing her best with an underwritten, composite role (31:35).

Dramatic and Emotional Thrust

• Persistent sense of “nothing is on the line”: “...there’s just not really a true dramatic thrust to this movie that makes it feel like anything is really on the line.” (Sean, 23:44)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Amanda on therapy culture in art:
  “I am a disciple of therapy...It is bad for art. It is great for the artist and really, really boring for art...it is bad for the tension. It is bad for the dialogue...” (25:07)
• Yossi on music biopics’ potential:
  “Music biopics can always be good. That’s why I’m so let down when they’re bad, because I think this is...one of the most compelling and rich things in the world.” (07:34)
• Springsteen as subject:
  “I tried to end this on a positive note, but you brought it back down...Ed says he’s not the boss. I’m the boss.” (61:04)
• On the music biopic genre’s irrelevance:
  “We’re fucked, because they’re just going to keep making movies about artists that are more and more important to us because we’re getting old.” (44:09, CR)

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Key Timestamps: Deliver Me From Nowhere Review

• [03:09] Yossi’s opening critique/compliment
• [05:16] Amanda describes the movie as “not a movie”
• [07:34] CR’s disappointment, lack of a movie
• [11:29] Best concert scene moment
• [14:09] CR on movie’s generic storytelling
• [25:07] Amanda on therapy’s impact on art
• [31:35] Odessa Young’s character called a “manic pixie New Jersey girl”
• [39:22] Oscar prospects for Jeremy Allen White discussed
• [44:33] Mount Rushmore of Music Biopics—panel shifts to broader genre talk

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Music Biopics: Mount Rushmore Discussion

Best of Genre

• Yossi: "24 Hour Party People" (“kind of about a label and a scene, but it counts”) (44:33)
• Sean & Amanda: "Coal Miner’s Daughter"
  “It’s kind of the template setter and maybe ruined them a little bit.” (45:28)
• CR: "I'm Not There" (“complete unknown,” fun modern take)
• Sean: "Love & Mercy" (“gives you both—making of Pet Sounds and Wilson later in life”) (48:06)

Why Most Biopics Fail

• Overly conventional—falling into "walk-hard" parody
• Fear of showing real flaws or darkness of artists
• Overly literal “one-tone” narratives (Yossi: “one tone, and that is the tone of the film, and we will not stray from that tone.” 29:51)
• Biopics often serve only “Oscar bait” purposes

Ones They Dread

• Clash: “I don’t want to ever see a movie about the Clash.” (50:35, CR)
• Beastie Boys: “They should not do that...nightmare to me.” (52:42, Sean)
• Taylor Swift: “We collectively as a society can’t live through a Taylor Swift biopic.” (53:31, Amanda)
• Kurt Cobain/Nirvana: “Leave Kurt Cobain alone.” (54:32, Amanda & Yossi)
• Oasis: Cautious but acknowledges rich comedic potential (58:38)

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The State of the Music Biopic (and Oscar Talk)

• Box Office Realities:
  Music biopics are one of the few adult genres that can still break through, typically on the strength of music nostalgia. “You kind of shouldn’t make this movie unless it’s gonna make money” (36:39, Sean).

• Oscar Prospects:
  Post-Telluride buzz faded, especially with a crowded Best Actor field.
  "That is a best actor nomination. Locked and loaded right there for you. And now with some distance, you have a very crowded best actor race this year..." (39:22)

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Parent/Child Films & “If I Had Legs, I’d Kick You” (Interview)

Quick Impressions (62:50–69:28)

• Mary Bronstein’s film focuses on motherhood’s terror, endurance, and emotional wildness, shot almost entirely in claustrophobic close-up.
• Amanda: “I felt like I was gonna throw up throughout this movie, which is said as a compliment” (64:05)
• Themes: Isolation, sacrifice, loss of self in parenting, rarely captured in cinema.
• Rose Byrne’s performance lauded as “astonishingly good” and a likely Oscar contender.

Mary Bronstein Interview Highlights

• Genesis of the Film:
  Wrote the script “on the bathroom floor of a really shitty hotel room” while caring for her sick daughter (70:06).

  “I literally felt myself disappearing. My being, my self. And I started writing the script in that bathroom...” (70:06–72:44)

• Script and Vision:
  Took years to refine. Most people who read the script “said, ‘best script I’ve ever read...but we can’t make it.’” (75:43)
• Industry Pressure:
  Urged to “lean into a missing woman, make it a crime thing.” She refused, waiting for the right partner—A24.
• Visual and Narrative Choices:
  The script spelled out visual language (e.g., extreme close-ups and the decision to never show the daughter’s face—an “empathy test” for viewers).

  “Once you introduce the face of a child...your sympathy is going to go with the child automatically...I need that not to be a complication.” (102:32)

• Motherhood in Art:
  Mary wanted to subvert the “unlikable mother” trope and force the audience into full empathy with her protagonist.
• Autobiography & Risk
  Movie is emotionally true but not a literal autobiography.

  “It is emotionally true. Everything in it is emotionally true.” (87:40)

• Reception & Impact:
  The movie has powerfully affected parent viewers (especially mothers) and prompts introspection about the loss of self, unspoken difficulties, and emotional taboos in parenting.

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Final Takeaways & Tone

• The episode combines serious criticism, casual snark, and industry-savvy insight.
• Panelists are long-time critics, music obsessives, and deeply skeptical about music biopic “Oscar bait,” though they still love the form when it’s done honestly or inventively.
• The Mary Bronstein segment is more intimate, deeply empathetic, and matches the close-up, psychological tone of her film.

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Most Memorable Quotes (with Attribution)

• Yossi (compliments biopics' promise):
  "Music biopics can always be good. And that's why I'm so let down when they're bad..." (07:34)
• Amanda (on therapy in movies):
  "I am a disciple of therapy...It's good for the artist and really, really boring for art." (25:07)
• CR (on the film's flaws):
  "This movie felt like the inverse [of Springsteen's music]. It was a very generic story and very generic scenes." (14:09)
• Amanda (on motherhood movies):
  "You motherfuckers don't realize that being a mom is insane. That's kind of what..." (65:56)
• Mary Bronstein:
  "I literally, in a very literal sense, felt myself disappearing...and I started writing the script in that bathroom." (70:06)
• Mary Bronstein:
  "It's emotionally true—everything in it is emotionally true, which is what I was trying to get at." (87:40)

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Useful Timestamps

• 03:09–17:41 Panel’s review of “Deliver Me from Nowhere,” including gripes and giggles.
• 23:44–26:01 Art, therapy, and why modern “wellness” can deaden cinema.
• 44:33–49:03 Music Biopic Mount Rushmore: best examples, panel’s picks.
• 53:31–54:32 Why we cannot handle a Taylor Swift biopic.
• 62:50–69:28 “If I Had Legs, I’d Kick You” quick review, parenthood film themes.
• 70:06–108:49 Mary Bronstein interview: creation, vision, motherhood, and emotional honesty in art.

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Concluding Thoughts

• “Deliver Me From Nowhere” left the hosts unsatisfied and highlighted the enduring clumsiness of most music biopics, with a few rare, inspired exceptions.
• The panel’s candid, conversational tone makes for an insightful critique—simultaneously critical, geeky, and self-aware.
• Mary Bronstein’s interview emerges as a refreshing celebration of uncompromising art, self-examination, and what it means to create (and parent) authentically.
• Both segments reveal film as a minefield of cliché and commerce, but also a battleground for truth, empathy, and breaking taboos.

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For listeners and movie lovers considering these films or the biopic genre, this episode offers smart criticism, memorable moments, and a few hard-won recommendations.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign I'm Sean Fennessy.

[B]

I'm Amanda Dyer and this is the.

[A]

Big Picture, a conversation show about the Boss. Today on the show, Chris Ryan and Yossi Salik join Amanda and me to talk about Springsteen. Deliver Me From Nowhere, the latest in a long line of musician biopics. This one's about Bruce Springsteen and the making of the album Nebraska, which you can see adorned on Chris Ryan's long sleeve T shirt.

[C]

Right now I'm gatekeeping where I got this.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[D]

Was it the Internet?

[A]

Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Mary Bronstein. She is the writer director of if I Had Legs, I'd Kick youk, which is an extraordinary showcase for the absolute terror of being a mother in this world and features an incredible performance from Rose Byrne. Amanda and I will talk about the movie a little bit after our conversation about Springsteen as well. Stick around for that. But now let's go to state trooper town. Deliver Me From Nowhere this episode is presented by LinkedIn ads.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Deliver Me From Nowhere this is a new feature film from writer director Scott Cooper, who CR has been holding his Cooper stock for I still am roughly 15 years. The film is based on Deliver Me from Nowhere, which is a 2023 nonfiction book written by Warren Zanes about the making of Nebraska in this particular period, roughly 1981 in Bruce Springsteen's life in the aftermath of the river album. And Jeremy Allen White stars in it as Bruce. Jeremy Strong appears in the film. Paul Walter Hauser, Odessa Young as a composite character of several women in Bruce Springsteen's life. Yassi, why don't I start with you? You're the host of Bruce. The last time you were here we talked about a music biopic, right?

[D]

We did. What is it called? Stunt casting. You're stunt casting.

[A]

Better. No, you were not stunt cast.

[C]

It was betterment.

[B]

But that was also it Was betterment and Paddington.

[A]

That's right. Right.

[B]

No, that was separate. The last time she was here was Paddington and Bridget Jones diary. So do not type Cassias.

[A]

It's sort of an artist's biopic in a different way.

[B]

It means multitude.

[D]

Sure.

[A]

You're not sun casting. You're a category expert and that's why you're here.

[D]

Thank you so much.

[A]

What did you think of Deliver me from.

[B]

Okay, I'm sorry. No. Before you even talk, I can see your notes and I can just see all of the bullet points. This is single spaced.

[D]

Okay. I'm challenging myself to begin with a compliment.

[C]

Yeah. Okay, good.

[D]

As you know, lead with love. Yes, Lead with love. I loved Better man and I do love and admire when people try to do something different than the typical thing.

[A]

Why are you speaking so slowly?

[B]

That is not what the first sentence. Give me the notes and let me read the first bullet point.

[D]

Let me read it. I felt like I was like, okay, it's cool. It's not a cradle to the grave. I genuinely thought that perhaps they were trying to do something artsy with the way it was shot with the black and white fl. I don't. Was it effective? No. But did they try? Yes. So that is my initial compliment.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Whether you're debating watching that award winning TV drama or rewatching your comfort cult classic for the 10th time, choices are important when it comes to choosing coverage. A State Farm agent can help you find options that are right for you. Go [e-mail] or use the app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor State Farm is there. Are you trying to not get aggregated right now?

[D]

No, I was like, I told you, I'm challenging myself to begin.

[A]

That isn't the goal of this show.

[D]

Well, unfortunately, this film has pushed me into becoming a well, actually guy because I have two pages of. Well, actually, I'm sorry, I just saw.

[B]

That one section of the notes is women in all caps. And then there's one bullet point and then an empty second bullet point. Right.

[D]

Because I really, I was like, wow, this podcast has two lead females in it and there's simply one and one at all female character in this composite.

[C]

There's Gabby Hoffman, the mom.

[B]

Oh, sure, yeah.

[A]

There's also the lady that says John Landow's wife.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[C]

She puts on moisturizing cream at one point.

[A]

We've all been there chatting with our spouse. Amanda, what did you think of delivery from now on?

[B]

You Absolutely undersold this dol. Like, you saw this at Telluride before all of us, and you were like, well, it didn't work for me. And there's. As I said to you, it didn't work for me. And there's. This is not a movie, which. This is straight up, not a movie. The three of us saw it together, which was really pleasant. And I don't want. I'm sorry, to make light of a film that is, if it's about anything, is, I guess, about depression. But we were giggling throughout at the, like, the absolute silliness we were disrupting and the cliche nature of this movie. Like, in some ways, I'm almost grateful for it. If we're gonna. If we're gonna do a compliment, if we're gonna lead with love or, you know, silver lining. This takes a lot of the pressure and hatred away from Walk the Line, which is a movie I actually like because this film was made after Walk Hard and is remaking the Walk Hard cliches, like, almost to a scene while they've already been pointed out cinematically. So now I feel like I can just, like, walk the Line and be like, well, it is what it is, but this. This is silly. I thought this was silly.

[C]

It's tough having seen the movie with them because I can't act like I didn't snort laugh when Flannery oconnors Collected Stories showed. I'll put it this way. This is one of my favorite albums. This movie is about the making. Nebraska. Nebraska is one of my favorite albums. I really, really like Bruce Springsteen a lot. I think there are people who know more about him and like him more. I, over the last couple of days, have been reading the book, as has Yassi. So I've reversed myself in what was going on at this time. The early 80s, specifically, is one of my favorite periods of pop music to read about and to hear about and to see depicted. And I think it's just one of the hardest things they would have had to have done is pull off Jeremy Allen White having a convincing Bruce Springsteen impersonation and the singing voice and all the playing and stuff like that. And I thought that was going to be the biggest bar, but it turns out the biggest bar was maybe there just wasn't a movie in this, and maybe it was just, like a cool idea at a cool time.

[D]

Can I just disagree? Yeah, of course not. Sorry to be Ernest Goes to Camp, but I really believe that music biopics can always be good. And I just. That's why I'm so let down when they're bad, because I think this is like, one of the most compelling and rich things in the world is the mythology of a musician that people have connected with so much. And again, I do this for a living. Like, I find a story everywhere. Like, it's wonderful stuff. And that's why I'm always so. I think there was a movie there. You read the book, right? Yeah, the book again, in my notes. I was just like, thing after thing where I was like, you just left this on the table, man. Like, there's direct.

[A]

Can you give me an example of that? Because I haven't read the book.

[C]

Well, so Warren's. The thesis of the book. I'm sorry, is and is this is the biggest left turn in pop music culture, pop music history, is that this guy is on the precipice of stardom. He's got these songs bubbling up that will become Born in the usa. But what he decides to do is so radical and, you know, even for given who he was and given the platform that he had, pretty revolutionary to choose to do this. It's like a reverse going electric.

[A]

Right.

[C]

For Dylan. And that's not what this movie's about at all. It's about your dad and depression and trying to, like, deal with, like.

[B]

And can we get the technological specs? Exactly.

[D]

I mean, it's like. You guys heard of a portrait studio? It was a real, like, hey, fellow Guitar center guys, let me list out every piece of equipment. I just. Okay, let me ask you guys a question. When you go into a music biopic, what do you want from it?

[A]

If I wasn't doing this for a living, I wouldn't be going to music biopics. I mean, that's a long standing point of view for me.

[D]

Only one, because they're bad. But if you. If you. If you were going. And you were going to get what you wanted from it, what would it do?

[A]

I think a deeper understanding of what the artist is trying to accomplish and understanding what the dramatic stakes are for the artist at that moment in time. I think that this movie is really sincerely trying to present what the filmmakers believe are dramatic stakes, which is that it's this huge left turn and that you can see all of the other characters are worried about the future of Bruce Springsteen's stardom. Maybe some of that is his artistic merit and popularity, but mostly it's money. Right. That this is like an art versus.

[C]

This guy's going to the moon narrative.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think the movie really Communicates a lot of that stuff. Well, but this is a. It is literally a movie about an artist at work. I think actually the artist at work stuff, it just. It's a testimony to why this is so hard to do. Because, you know, even if you haven't read the Zanes book, that Bruce Springsteen was inspired by Flannery o'. Connor. He was inspired by Badlands. He was inspired by Night of the Hunter. He was inspired by this kind of desperate, stark gothic period of American popular culture. And that's cool, but it is not, to your point, terribly cinematic. And it obviously commits the crazy sin of, like, let's put two of the most important movies of the 20th century on screen so we can tell you. We can show you clearly how this movie is not as good as that movie. I don't have the same relationship to Bruce. And I think one of the reasons why, when I came out of my screening at Telluride and we did the pod about the movie, I was. I would say there were very few dissenters coming out of that screening. It was like a hot premiere at that festival. Literally. Oprah Winfrey was standing behind me in line to get into the movie. Bruce was there. It was a very warm crowd, an older crowd at that festival. And everybody came out being like, jeremy Allen. White killed it. And, God, I love some of those songs. And I think that was just enough for people. And I do think that that may be enough for people with this movie. But the one thing that it does is what you were describing, which is that Jeremy Donald White does actually nail Bruce Springsteen, being Bruce Springsteen on stage.

[C]

The two times that this movie leaves Earth are when they play Born to Run in front.

[B]

What they do in the first five.

[C]

Minutes literally looks like they sold out a stadium and have all these extras. And the band is the E Street Band. You're just like, I can't. That guy looks like Max Weinberg. And drumming like that.

[D]

Some of them were from Greta Van Fleet, I believe.

[C]

Really? And then the other moment is when he's playing Born in the USA in the studio.

[A]

That is the one scene where I was like, why would you show it to me if I cannot have it? It's a fascinating choice to do that, but it almost feels like an act of cruelty to the audience. And I think Cooper is trying to say something. He's trying to make you feel the way that everyone else in Springsteen's cohort felt in that sequence, right? That's like, we all know that you are about to be Bruce Springsteen. Why can't you just go there. But you shouldn't, like, punish the audience to make your point. And it does feel like they're kind of punishing you in this movie by not letting you have the fun of a great Bruce Springsteen moment.

[B]

Right. Well. And the movie does also doesn't deliver on what it is that makes Bruce Springsteen that the movie's interested in want to do that. And it doesn't. Like, it doesn't develop the character and the motivations. So you aren't paid off for being punished by being like, okay, but, like, at the end, we got this amazing thing instead. It literally goes to some, you know, record printing store and is like, I'm going to do the grooves differently or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that, honestly, I would have taken, like, 40 more minutes of the grooves over some of the flashbacks. And so, like, I think that kind of gets into an interesting part about this where, you know, complete Unknown was really interesting because obviously, like, they do that almost as a jukebox musical where, like, you get all these Dylan performances and all these iconic moments in his career. This one almost seemed to be resisting Springsteen's music. And it felt a little bit more like two guys coming towards the end of their lives who kind of are dictating how they want to be remembered and what they wish they would have said, you know, over probably how it actually worked and how it was actually happening. And that speaks to the relationship with the composite character. That's Faye Romano, who's, like, Bruce Springsteen's girlfriend at the time and woman.

[B]

Even, like, the depiction stands in for. He's emotionally unavailable. You know, I want to see art.

[D]

Do you think it's worth it to be a terrible partner in service of making a great piece of art? Are you pro that? I feel like you've been on record.

[C]

I feel like I've definitely enjoyed a lot of art that happened by terrible partners. Who's made by terrible partners.

[A]

I mean, think of Neil McCauley. Not the best partner in the world, but awesome thief.

[C]

That's right. But, yeah, like, I. I just think this thing that I love about Bruce Springsteen is how he makes very specific, detailed storytelling into, like, universal themes and universal emotions. And this movie felt like the inverse of that. It was a very generic story and a very generic scenes. Like, you get to the end of scenes and you'd be like, what was. What was that scene about? That scene was about him looking out at a lake. Or that scene was about him driving back and forth somewhere.

[D]

It didn't ring true because it wasn't Right. Like, again, I was so mad after I read the book. Cause I was like, well, okay, if it's not gonna be the platonic ideal of a music biopic, which is the Bob Dylan one, which was like, this is fine. Right? This is the best possible version of this, then you have to like, show me what the inner workings of this man was when he was making. Bruce Springsteen lived with his grandparents. He says point blank in this book, Nebraska is about my grandparents, not my parents. Did we see one grandma, one grandpa in there? His aunt died right before he was born. It was like a specter of a ghost upon his life that created talks about where was the. You know, like, if you're. If you're in Nebraska, where was the ant's ghost? Yeah, where was the ant's ghost? I would have rather the ant's ghost.

[C]

Paranormal Activity, Springsteen out in the Pine Barrens.

[D]

Now we're talking about Bruce Springsteen. Knew each other? Yeah, they had met before Nebraska was made. They had a friendship. What did we get? A scene where he's laying on the floor blasting suicide. Pan to the album cover. Suicide. Rhodey walks in. What you listening to, Boss? It's called suicide.

[A]

Well, the problem with that is, Chris, we were talking about this a little bit yesterday. A movie like this, which is actually quite interested in the specific details that people like us like to cite when we talk about artists and what they do is when you show that to people who care and already know, it feels like obvious bad storytelling. And when you show it to a general audience, it's just baffling if you don't have context for suicide or Night of the Hunter. What does that even really mean in the movie?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I would say that, like the basic storytelling in this movie, besides, that's Bruce Springsteen. And you know, you know, Born in the USA is. Is boring and coherent to the point that I turned to you 90 minutes into the movie and was like, who is that guy about one of the main characters? And you were like, I have no idea. And I'll be honest, right now, I forgot to Google it. Who was that guy?

[C]

I'm trying to remember because I feel like it was more than one thing.

[B]

It was like a friend.

[D]

His friend.

[C]

The guy who's driving him?

[B]

Yeah, the guy's driving him.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Who's driving him?

[D]

You want to hear about an amazing filmic detail that they could have put in the thing? The entire drive, that friend had gone through a breakup, was in a terrible state and was holding a huge teddy bear. Wouldn't I Have liked to see that. I'm just like, Sean said that I couldn't have directed and written a better version of this.

[E]

He did so.

[D]

And I do feel like I could have underestimated that.

[A]

I mean, you just have no background whatsoever in filmmaking. I didn't. It wasn't. Because I think that you're not good at the things that you do. This is not a successful movie. Like, it really doesn't work. And what enervated me about it when I saw it was that it is attempting to be the opposite of Walk Hard and it inadvertently commits every sin. Like, the flashback stuff is so bad.

[B]

Happen in the first five minutes also. And you and I turned to each other and we were just like, oh.

[C]

Well, I remember we had a conversation about the trailer. And I think I said, oh, but that'll probably only be like, the first 10 minutes of the movie is like a flashback to Bruce Springsteen's childhood. It kind of sets up what, like, complicated feelings he has about this older generation of people. And I did not expect it to be at least half the film. And Stephen Graham's on a heater right now. I understand it. Honestly, it's just a. Kind of a total waste to Stephen Graham and Gabby Hoffman. If you're gonna make a movie and put them in it, you might as well. And it's like, weirdly, like, Gabby Hoffman's on the phone a lot calling him, but is not appearing. So I almost wonder whether that's stitched together. Like, we need to make this work so we'll do connective to adr. Gabbie Hoffman's calling Jeremy Allen white stuff.

[D]

It's like, also, like, did you need to shoehorn in a love story? You had a love story. It was him and his manager. You know, like, what's the most beautiful, one of the most. There's so many threads you could have pulled that would have made a better movie. But, like, the beauty of Don Landau having been a critic and, like, rescuing Bruce by becoming a second manager and always believing in him and like, that. I think they, like, glanced at that a couple times.

[A]

Yeah, they don't really over explain that. And maybe, like, that might have been helpful context for audiences that they actually have a very unique dynamic. That being said, that would make it a movie about an artist and a manager. I mean, that also is not a movie. There's something very beautiful about the relationship that those guys still have. Like, I really think that's quite cool that somebody who's basically responsible for making sure that the business works Understands his artist's creativity and greatness and that he's always been a great advocate because he has a background in understanding artists. But that's also not a movie. That's a commerce story. That's about being the middleman that protecting you from the influence of a record label. And it's not even really that severe. The David Krumholtz character, that critical scene when they play Nebraska for him, and he's like.

[E]

He's like.

[C]

It's all like this.

[A]

This is not great. But, like, what are you gonna do? Like, he doesn't have enough power to tell Bruce Springsteen to go back in the studio. They just kind of accept it. And then the great triumph of the movie is like, this movie or this album didn't have a single on it, but it still went to number three on the charts and has gone on to be iconic. And it's like, I know. We know.

[D]

Great tidbit in the book. We came to the movie where John Lando's like. And Bruce called me after, and he never asks about the charts. And he asked about the charts because he actually did care. And I was like, that could have been a good thing to put in for me to understand.

[C]

You know, like, there it was, his first music video.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Music video that would have been interesting. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that would have been interesting if they had done basically a docudrama version of this. I think another huge challenge to this. And I was trying to, like, build, like, a similar to Yossi. Like, we would love, like, try and make a defense or case for this movie. I was like, okay, so here's my case is not unlike Bruce Springsteen watching Badlands on TV one night, and he gets inspired by the Starkweather story. Scott Cooper is watching Badlands and decides to make a malicky, impressionistic, kind of wandering version of the Bruce Springsteen story that deals with memory and trauma and the natural world around Bruce Springsteen. And there's a lot of, like, great scenery, but the narrative itself is kind of in the background. But that's a huge challenge. If that would have taken so much more of a leap to be like, this isn't really about Bruce Springsteen. This is about art and inspiration.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And if you do it that way, then please leave the, like you're an idiot exposition at home. That was like, you either do that and leave it pretty, like, challenging and interesting and open to interpretation, but they were just hammering you in the head with this exposition. As we talked about John Landau talking to his wife. A departure.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

It is, yeah.

[E]

I think that's funny.

[A]

The intentions of the movie.

[B]

I just kept waiting, like, is she gonna get to speak on the last cut to her?

[C]

She's in the Marc Maron cut, by the way.

[D]

Best part of the movie, in my opinion. Like, all of a sudden the movie came alive.

[A]

I was like, he has three lines of dialogue, but they were the best three lines.

[B]

For a while I thought it was a little bit of a bit that he was just there and he wasn't talking. And I liked that. You know, there was a little bit of restraint.

[A]

I get the impression a lot was cut out from his performance.

[C]

I was kind of like, there's two images from this movie that I really want to take over as memes. One is the gummer. Was it Mamie Gummer?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Doing her creams at night. And I want to have it be.

[B]

Like, no, I think it's. It's Gracie.

[D]

Oh, the Grace.

[B]

I think it's Grace. I don't think it's Mamie.

[C]

I'm so sorry.

[D]

Apologies.

[C]

Yeah, Mrs. Mark, her doing her creams at night. It's like me explaining to my wife the Chauncey Billups scandal.

[A]

And then the other is just like.

[C]

Jeremy, Jeremy Strong listening to the headphones. And it's just like the Watch.

[A]

Start.

[B]

Explain.

[A]

I'm glad you were generating memes.

[B]

Those are really good memes.

[D]

Can I ask you guys a question, a real question?

[A]

What questions have you been asking before this?

[D]

Absolutely false ones. Where do you land on VO in general in films? I'm very into VO and all. I kept thinking like, voiceover. Yes. Voiceover was like, oh, you could have done a lot.

[A]

I think it depends on the quality of the writing. And this script suggests that the quality of the writing would not have been strong. That this is a deeply overwritten movie.

[B]

You can tell when it's wholesale from his book, when it's part of the text of the movie and the script and is being used as a device. You can also tell. Great. And then there's a lot of times where it's like, wow, we didn't have anything. So now we're trying to paper over extra with some voiceover.

[D]

I just feel like people avoid it because they feel it's hack or something when it can really.

[A]

Well, there are a lot of examples where you can see movies have been Frankensteined back together with the aid of voiceover. This is such a perspective driven film about a person alone. And it could have helped.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

To me, I think you're right. Ultimately, that there's just not really a true dramatic thrust to this movie that makes it feel like anything is really on the line.

[C]

Well, I think to your point about the crowd at Telluride, and you said it was an older crowd. I was talking about this with Craig Horlbeck as we were coming into the studio. Cause he had seen it last night, and he was like, man, I just think that generation just are never going to get over their dads. Yeah. And the idea that, like, I was actually pretty surprised I had. I don't think I read a lot about what this movie was about. So when it. We get like two thirds in and I'm like, is this movie about him being diagnosed with depression? Like, I was kind of surprised, but also like, I'm like, that is not what I thought we were getting at all. And they don't even see the word depression until the title card right after the film, where they're like, he's struggled with depression his whole life, but with help and hope. Like, he's figured it out. But it is there still, like, that generation of people who are around Springsteen's age who are like, I did not. Therapy was not popular. Like, I did not.

[A]

I was just saying this to them right before you got here. That there, there, there is like a therapy 1.0 quality to the Bruce Springsteen experience. I. I really respect that about him and that he has spent the last 20 years kind of like, reexamining his success and the things that he's done in his life that he's not happy with. He's made, like, several documentaries now about the makings of his albums. He's written books.

[B]

Like, he is really going, listen, listen. Like, that is wonderful for him. I am a disciple of therapy. I believe in it, and I believe in SSRIs. And it is bad for art. Like, it is great for the artist and really, really boring for art. And we have seen it again and again. It is bad for the tension. It is bad for the dialogue, like, for literally the things that are said. Scott Cooper gives one of those welcome to, you know, deliver me from nowhere speeches, which went on for so long that I don't think voiceover would have been good. Yesy. And, you know, he says. He says trauma, like, twice in that introduction. And again, it's like, the point of therapy is to be able to name and deal with your trauma. It's amazing for a human being, but it obviates the art. So this is bad therapy culture movie.

[C]

I used to think that probably one of the more difficult things you would do if you were making a movie about music or making a movie about a writer would be to depict them convincingly making that thing. So whether it would be fictional, like the wonders in that thing you do, it's like that song has to be good enough that you want to listen to it 10 times in the movie, or if it's Dylan and just Chalamet has to convince you that he's Dylan. But I think the thing that I really struggle with is in this movie was watching someone get inspired, because that's something I think you can do effectively. There's a really beautiful episode of the Bear, I think, think from season two, but it might have been three, where Sidney goes all over Chicago and tries all these different foods and starts, like, writing down in her notebook. Like, the different ideas and architecture and how that's influencing what she wants to do with some of her cooking. And so it's possible to hit it. But this was kind of like he opens Flannery Oconnors book, reads two paragraphs, and then starts writing down.

[D]

Like it was like one to one.

[C]

It was like everything was a one to one.

[B]

Are we allowed to talk about the Notebook now?

[A]

Yes. You're a person of free will.

[B]

Well, I mean, so much of this structural making of this movie rests on Bruce Springsteen writing in a notebook and then you seeing what double albums. Why? Question mark. And then my personal favorite, which is when he's writing the lyrics to Nebraska and they're in third person, and then he crosses out the he and writes I and crosses out the he.

[E]

Thank you for doing that.

[A]

It reminded me a lot of the whiteboard in a choir, which has been memed to death, where it's sort of like they can't hear. But why? But we're like two years into the apocalypse. Yeah, it's just not good writing. I don't know that there is a way to do that if you're not gonna make a purposefully impressionistic film. The Bear can get away with that because that's a show that one is episodic and has a lot of time to tell its story, and two is pretty audacious in the way that it changes the kind of storytelling it's doing episode to episode. Sometimes it doesn't work as well as others.

[B]

I was gonna say also, it's run out there a little bit in terms. And, you know, I personally have run out of patience watching Jeremy Allen White have demons but not say a word about them on screen.

[A]

I wanted to go to the performances next. So that's a good segue to, you know, Carmi making the transition here to movie stardom.

[B]

I think it's his fault, but it's like another thing where the character is not written besides looking. Anguish.

[A]

Brooding.

[B]

Yeah. Brooding.

[A]

Yeah. That is a vein of movie stardom. Right, that you, like. You have a thing that you are the best at. And that, like, silent, distant stare, that pained stare, like, that is something that other actors in history have become stars with those kinds of tools, you know, like, Montgomery Clift was an actor who had that kind of a quality. But it feels, like, very weird. It does feel like Carmi, like, landed in Bruce Springsteen's life while watching the movie.

[D]

West Borland contacts and called it a day.

[C]

That's a tough comp. I can't unsee that now. West Borland.

[D]

It was giving West Borland for me the whole time.

[A]

Do you watch the Bear?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you think Jeremy Allen White was. It was good in the film?

[D]

Yeah, I did. I thought he did a good job. Like, I think. I think he's a good actor. I mean, there's. There's some parts where I'm always like, he didn't have to go, like, so hard in the Bruce Springsteen, like, mouth movement when you're singing or whatever. But I. I think it's fine. That's what you do or whatever. I thought he was my whole thing. I thought Jeremy Strong was good, too, but I was just kind of like, you know, a lot of work to work with.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Agree.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

I thought Jeremy Allen White was good as this version of Bruce Springsteen, you know, like, is there, like, I can't even think of a comp. Like, would. Would Josh o' Connor or Miles Teller have done something different with the part?

[A]

Miles Teller, you say?

[C]

Well, I'm trying to think of guys who could feasibly look like Bruce, have brown hair.

[D]

Yeah. I just feel like, again, one of my biggest with music biopics is that they always choose one tone, and that is the tone of the film, and we will not stray from that tone. And it's never. When you're. When you're. It doesn't feel real because people are not one note. Bruce Springsteen didn't sit for, like, four years and be like, oh, you know who I am? Wish I knew.

[B]

You know, I'm sure he cracked a.

[D]

Joke now and again. Like, I'm just like. And I think the most effective ones for me show a few different sides of a person. And this one was just Mr. Depressed wrote a notebook. Can't commit to composite woman.

[C]

Can we talk a little bit about the Odessa Young character? Just because this is an amalgamation or a composite of a couple of women.

[A]

That he was, I think multiple women that he was dating in this period in his life, one of whom it.

[D]

Seems had a child, must have invented that.

[C]

I thought that that was like a really strange choice to. To make that like basically the centerpiece of the film outside of the father. Not because I was like, I can't believe you're leaving her or anything like that. Like, I. I thought that was fine, but that was the place where I.

[A]

Felt like, you think men should leave women with children?

[B]

No, I just felt like I could.

[C]

Feel the fingerprints of Bruce Springsteen on, like, this is what I'm comfortable sharing. But then I can't get too specific about like the details of these relationships because I'm not there. I don't know if you've read other Bruce Springsteen, like his biography doesn't get specific about it.

[D]

I didn't read the whole thing, but I went through those. And he talks about leaving one woman to go to la. And I think all that he says is that she's like 21, no name or anything.

[A]

I think Odessa Young's trying her best to give life to an underwritten character who is basically defined as like, I really like Chuck Berry and have a kid.

[D]

I'm cool. I mean, same manic pixie, New Jersey girl.

[B]

Are you big Chuck Berry fan? Yeah, of course.

[A]

Great bedrock of rock and roll.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Movie's not successful. Jeremy Strong, you know, one of my guys. I'll support him to the death. Didn't think this was his best work. I thought it was like very self conscious in a way, that it was a little distracting. And I know that that's kind of his bag, but it needs to have some flair to it. It needs to be Roy Cohn. It needs to be a character with some absurdity. John Landau is by all accounts a very warm, good guy. And that's not.

[B]

There's no dramatic thing, there's no charisma. There's. Except for Mark Marin sitting there. Yeah. And even he is not allowed to speak. But I think, you know, to Yassi's point, it's. That's flat. But also is not in line keeping with like the Bruce Springsteen we know who. Even if he, you know, he was in a rough patch in his life. But like, that is an international, you know.

[A]

Yes. A charisma machine.

[B]

Exactly. Like you could give us something.

[A]

Yeah. I think I just chalk it up to Scott Cooper, like, this is like five movies in a row that are just deathly self serious and dull and overwritten. And this is just kind of the mode he's in. There's been a couple things I've enjoyed that he's done, but it's been a very long time. And Chris is bursting at the seams right now. He wants to defend out of the Furnace.

[C]

He wants to defend first, last.

[A]

No, he wants to defend. Defend Antlers. He wants to defend hostels. You know, Antlers has kind of some cool scenes.

[C]

You don't think so?

[A]

No, I don't think it's successful, no. And it's fascinating that, like, Bruce Springsteen trusted him to tell this story. Like, did Bruce Springsteen watch Antlers? What happened here?

[C]

No, I think he watched out of the Furnace, though, which is essentially a Bruce Springsteen song.

[D]

I heard an interview with him where he was talking about how it got made, and he said, warren Zanes, by the way, we didn't even mention Warren Zanes. Also a musician that was in the Del Fuegos. He's very cool. But him and Scott Cooper came to ask about it, and Bruce Springsteen was like, I'm 76, I don't care what happens. Like, that was basically what he said. And I was like, okay, well, then that makes more sense.

[C]

Well, I guess I'm wrong about, like, Springsteen's influence over, like, the way.

[B]

Yeah, he is promoting it.

[D]

Yeah, he's like, on the concept almost all the time.

[A]

He is promoting it for sure. Yeah, I think he was. I think he's trying to thread that needle of, like, I want him as an artist to be able to do what he wants to do because that's what the movie is about. So it would be contradictory to try to control that. But Bruce Springsteen is a business at this point.

[C]

He's got a really. Springsteen had a really cool quote around the time of the making of Nebraska, or maybe it was in retrospectively looking back on the making of Nebraska. But he was just like, I felt like I was losing touch with the kind of people that I used to write about and that my songs were about, you know, and that it was like a moment where obviously he's about to become unable to go to diners and unable to go to the library.

[B]

And look at a lot of microfiche. And not even just about.

[C]

That's just research.

[A]

That's honestly something I love to do. And I miss that in my life deeply.

[D]

Not even just about him feeling like, oh, I. I'm too famous now. It was literally like I am. I have left the atmosphere that I lived in, you know, and that was.

[C]

There are suggestions of it in the. Some of the diners. You can see him like looking at guys like eating their. Their breakfast or whatever and you can kind of feel him.

[A]

His alienation.

[C]

His alienation of being like, I'm not. Like I'm not going to be that guy.

[E]

Probably I can't eat breakfast anymore.

[C]

I can't.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

So the movie is tracking to make between 10 and $12 million.

[D]

There's also.

[E]

Is that a lot?

[C]

I wanted to know if you flocked this in a diner.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There's one point where Jeremy Strong and Jeremy Allen White are in the diner and they seem to be either have had separately or splitting a tuna melt and eggs over easy and onion rings. And I just want to say I don't approve of that diet order.

[A]

That's a great order. What do you mean? What's wrong? Tuna melon, onion rings and one somebody else's.

[C]

And eggs over easy.

[A]

You're in a diner. You gotta get eggs.

[D]

Splitting the eggs.

[B]

Oh no, you don't have to get eggs. You can if you want.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

You and Andy need to go to Jupiter and have your diner orders.

[A]

We need to go to the east coast of the United States of America where diner culture thrives.

[B]

You're ordering a tuna melt and eggs.

[D]

I want some.

[A]

But in a splitting scenario.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you do eat tuna melt. Even though. Yeah, same. Even though you're like against all of the ingredients. Individually together their powers combine.

[A]

Anti mayonnaise guy and I eat bread.

[B]

Right. But everything that goes into the tuna salad, whatever and cheese. A real up and down relationship with.

[A]

I love it. It doesn't love me, but I'm doing my best to survive it. I like that order and I support those two men.

[C]

Andy ended up getting mozzarella sticks and black coffee. I'm just never gonna get it.

[A]

That also sounds great.

[D]

I think that's a great order.

[A]

That sounds awesome.

[B]

I'm with you on that.

[D]

You guys are real d. Seriously. Seriously. The whole point of a diner is like the world is your oyster. Get whatever you want.

[A]

Precisely.

[D]

Mix it up.

[B]

It just doesn't go together, you know.

[A]

Box office for this movie. You kind of shouldn't make this movie unless it's gonna make money. And it seems like they've made a movie that isn't gonna make a lot of money, which then makes this like a very weird curio. This is one of the few sub genres of movies that we've talked about. In the last 10 years that can kind of break through to adult audiences and reach them. Because they want to go and hear Queen songs really loud or Ray Charles songs or Aretha Franklin songs or Bob Dylan songs, as we saw last year. And it seems like this is not gonna do very well. It seems like Chainsaw man is gonna take a chainsaw to this movie at the box office this weekend. Anybody seen Chainsaw Man?

[D]

No, not yet.

[A]

You know, I tell you what I'm seeing.

[B]

We gotta wrap up.

[A]

I'm seeing it in theaters. I'm telling you right now.

[D]

I'm seeing Chainsaw man has tickets after this. So we have a hard out.

[A]

Don't you?

[B]

A mastermind. Chainsaw man double header.

[A]

Those are two different energies, but they could go great together. Just like eggs in a tuna melt. You never know. It raises the question of, like, why? Why was this movie made?

[D]

Why is it gonna do well? Is it because it has bad reviews?

[C]

I don't think the word of mouth will be great on this movie.

[A]

The word of mouth is not gonna be good. The review scores have come way down since the festival premiere. But I think it's also, like, it's about Nebraska. It's not about Born in the usa, you know, it's not this exaltation of artistic achievement, which is the opposite, obviously, of a complete unknown, which is about this transformative moment full of songs that people who are Bob Dylan fans know and can sing along to. I think always of that weird scene in that movie when it seems like there's gonna be nuclear disaster. And Elle Fanning, like, races downstairs around the corner to see him playing Masters of War in a coffee shop at, like, 10pm at night. And I'm like, this is the most bullshitty scene I've ever seen in a movie in my life. But it was awesome. It was fucking awesome. Cause I was like, you know, Masters of War, that's a jam. Like, it's a really good song. And this movie has none of that.

[D]

But even for Nebraska Head cr. Tell me if I'm wrong, I'm a Nebraska head.

[A]

There wasn't enough Nebraska songs.

[C]

And I was like, they even. They cucked out when they're pressing the record and they're like, we're gonna play I'm on Fire.

[D]

I'm just like, listen, I love I'm On.

[C]

That's one of the greatest songs ever written. But that's not to do.

[B]

You're making.

[C]

You're literally pressing Nebraska. Just.

[D]

They wanted to remind you that watching this film was, like, taking a Nice knife, baby. Adrian doll. Six inch Valley through the middle of my skull.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

I mean, the why of you like free spacing? Of course I do.

[D]

I'm an American.

[A]

You know.

[B]

The why of, like, why. It's all tied up in the same thing. Why did you make this movie like this? Like the fact that this movie is as befuddling to us in a sitting down, watching at an audience set and that then also pertain, you know, applies to its box office. It's just. I. I don't. Why?

[A]

Well, one reason to make this movie is Academy Awards. Right. So when I came out of that screening at Telluride, everybody was like, well, that is a best actor nomination. Locked and loaded right there for you. And now with some distance, like, you have a very crowded best actor race this year. Right. We have two obvious ones. We have Bob Dylan himself, Timothee Chalamet, Marty supreme, and we have Leonardo DiCaprio in one battle after another.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

We've also got Michael B. Jordan and Sinners.

[A]

Michael B. Jordan and Sinners. I agree. We've got Dwayne Johnson potentially in the Smashing Machine, though that movie has not done as well.

[C]

Austin Abrams in Weapons.

[A]

I don't think he'll be campaigning. There are a few other significant contenders.

[D]

Jesse Plemons.

[B]

Jesse Plemons.

[A]

Jesse Plemons from Begonia is on that list.

[E]

Look at that.

[B]

Venice jumping out.

[D]

That's right.

[A]

I saw that all done. I hope Wagner Mora for the Secret Agent is nominated. He's amazing in that movie. Hopefully we'll talk about that soon on the show. I don't know if I see it happening.

[D]

I don't either at this point.

[C]

I think if this movie kind of comes and goes and doesn't have any traction at the box office, it'll be really hard for them to make the argument.

[A]

It does remind me a little bit of the way that so many Best Actress nominations tend to happen, where that is the only thing that is recognized in a movie. Because this is not probably gonna get nominations in other categories.

[C]

In some ways it's kind of impressive because obviously he went through a lot of training, I would imagine, to get as good as he did at guitar and as good as he did at sounding just like Bruce Springsteen. And if I were him, I'd be like, Scott Cooper. Let me play a couple more songs, man.

[A]

Yeah. Where is the companion album of Jeremy Allen White singing all the Bruce Springsteen songs like a complete unknown did that actually worked? I listened to that.

[C]

There actually is tonight they're releasing the expanded Nebraska with the multiple versions.

[A]

The electric versions, right?

[C]

Yeah, the electric versions that he was not satisfied with.

[A]

With. Yeah. So how do you guys feel about that? That's deep Bruce lore. I'm.

[C]

I'm so pumped.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

You're pumped for the expanded Nebraska?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

Sierra has an alarm sound.

[C]

This is like a legendary. When will they give it to us?

[A]

Never appeared on bootlegs. Yes. That's cool. You don't care.

[D]

I'll. It's fine. I'll listen to it. Okay. I'm not as excited as cr.

[A]

Sorry.

[D]

I'm sorry.

[B]

You're not. Sorry if I care.

[A]

I know you didn't care.

[B]

I also think that you're not a.

[A]

Real bonus features kind of person.

[B]

No, I think that you should work, really finish your product fully and release it. And don't make me sit through the extras or the redos, you know, finish it before you ask me for my attention.

[A]

Somebody should let Ridley Scott know that that's where Amanda stands on his.

[B]

I mean, I know and I. You know, the four. Have you and Tracy watched Kingdom of Heaven director's cut together yet?

[C]

Not together, no.

[B]

Yeah. You could set up a little zoom.

[D]

Yeah. You could do more to see that.

[B]

Sell tickets to that.

[C]

I would come. I should find out if Hitmaker watched it yet, because he was like, damn.

[A]

He told me he did.

[C]

Didn't seem like that shit sucked.

[A]

Yeah. He said, CR is a cuck. I was like, well, it's your opinion, man. Let's talk briefly about music biopics. Yassi opened by proclaiming that they could be good. They aren't good very often.

[D]

Well, people should take that as a charm.

[B]

I still sometimes enjoy them.

[A]

I know you do, because you love to hear music loud and make it fun, right?

[B]

Yeah, and I do. It is always the moment that is in some ways the cringiest moment until you have seen Delivery From Nowhere and you understand that it's actually someone writing in a notebook.

[D]

But double album, question mark.

[B]

Double why? Question mark. But when they're sitting there in the studio or somewhere and they're like, noodling on a guitar and you're like, oh, my God, they're right in respect.

[A]

They're right in whatever.

[C]

That's Highway 61.

[B]

I just, you know, oh, my God. He just. Like someone just sat down at the organ, you know, and every single time that works. And even in this movie, it's the real highlight where you're just like, oh, my God, he's playing Bourne in the usa.

[C]

When they have the Max Weinberg start the Drum beat. I was like, yeah, yo.

[A]

I don't really hold the same opinion on that.

[D]

No.

[A]

Because that's not usually how it works.

[D]

I didn't feel that way.

[C]

What? What isn't how it works? That they just start playing it in the studio that way.

[B]

So you don't think that Bob Dylan wrote Blowing in the Wind?

[D]

Yeah, he did. At the vanity table on the hotel.

[A]

After blowing out Joan Baez's back. Ye. Is that what you're gonna say?

[B]

Mine's gonna be a little more delicate.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

It's just sitting right on the table.

[C]

And I guess Captain Tudor, Mel just came out.

[B]

According to that scene. He had already written it and she found the lyrics on the. On the coffee table.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It was originally called Blown out or Back. And he was like, I got a metaphor.

[D]

Men are very creative post coital. Able to do a lot of things right off of beautiful music or do.

[B]

Any of that, you know, and then. And then they play and you're like, it's this song. I love this song.

[D]

I don't know.

[C]

One thing I'll say is, is we're fucked because they're just going to keep making movies about artists that are more and more important to us because we're getting old.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, let's. Let's do the good first and then we can talk about the bad. So the good. If you had to choose one. Yassi. If we were. If the four of us were going to build the Mount Rushmore, we're going to choose the most essential music biopic or the best expression of a music biopic ever.

[D]

Well, you already know what I'm gonna say. We'll just say 24 hour party people. Which I know it's cheating a little because it's like kind of not exactly a music biopic because it's about a label, a head and a scene. But I think it counts.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Obviously you can't pick a doc, right?

[A]

No, obviously. No.

[B]

And are we so biopic, it's about real people as opposed to fake people?

[C]

She's thinking the thing I'm thinking it.

[A]

Has to be about real people.

[B]

Yes.

[E]

Okay.

[D]

You're thinking Spinal Tap.

[C]

No.

[B]

Well, I don't. This isn't my pick, but since you just said some rude things about Joan Baez in A Complete Unknown, I do have to say that Monica Barbaro was amazing. I did not think it was actually her singing as Joan Baez. And then she was. She was good. I mean, Sissy Spacek, right?

[A]

Yeah, that was gonna be my pick. Actually. We should have talked about that. Coal Miner's Daughter is definitely the best.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's kind of the template setter and maybe ruined them a little bit.

[B]

But I rewatched most of it last night and it's still weird and unexpected. Directed by Michael Apted. And crucially, there is conflict in her life story and it just shows it in real time. Not a lot of bells and whistles. The last 30 minutes is just. Now she's famous and performing and that's complicated too.

[A]

But.

[B]

But she's amazing in it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, part of that is, I think. Cause Michael Apted is a documentarian and so he's well suited to trying to portray something real. Right. And like that's kind of the trick of these movies is like Deliver Me From Nowhere just feels really artificial.

[D]

It would have been an incredible documentary actually, like instead of a movie.

[A]

Well, sure, there are documentaries, I think about the three previous Bruce Springsteen movies. That's the thing. It's like. It almost felt like his team was like, we got to do a different version if we're going to do another album.

[C]

Although I probably now in retrospect, would just do like a long form Nebraska doc.

[D]

I think it would be great.

[C]

I would probably say.

[E]

I would.

[C]

Honestly, I would say complete unknown. I like. I think that's the one I had the most fun watching. Love that music. I thought he did a great job. I thought it depicted the fantasy version of that era in a pretty like, enlivening way. I did want to ask you, gut check, vibe check, time. After seeing Deliver Me From Nowhere, how are we feeling about four Beatles movies? Incoming.

[E]

God.

[D]

Oh boy.

[C]

Because that could go, I mean, real good.

[B]

So they cast Saoirse ronan as Linda McCartney.

[D]

We love her.

[C]

And then the word is James Norton is going to play Brian Epstein, right?

[B]

Yeah. And then have casting.

[A]

And then Paul Mescal is Paul.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Harris Dickinson is John.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Joseph Quinn is Joseph.

[A]

Joseph Quinn is George. And Barry Keoghan is Ringo.

[E]

Yes.

[B]

You know, beautiful casting.

[A]

Pretty good casting.

[D]

Beautiful casting. We love all our boyfriends.

[A]

Four separate films about four separate phases of Beatles life.

[C]

All four directed by Sam Mandis, A traditionally undocumented group.

[D]

We know nothing about them really, actually.

[B]

And by a director whose last films have really spoken to me on an emotional light.

[A]

Has your empire of light 4k with the commentary been released yet?

[B]

No, but I did with the bonus features. I did once again find that screener DVD that you lent me, like in the player.

[A]

Hard to believe I forgot about that.

[B]

Do you want it back?

[A]

No, thanks, Chell.

[D]

What's yours?

[A]

My pick would probably be, I had been thinking Coal Miner's Order, because I think it's the one that's sort of like sets it. And it's a little hard to surpass it because Sissy Sebastic's so good. Probably Love and Mercy, the Brian Wilson film, which is a really good movie and I think does a good job of kind of giving you both. It gives you the making of Pet Sounds in a way that feels like very satisfying to what you're describing, where they're in the room figuring out Good Vibrations. But then also it shows you Wilson at a different stage of his life. Two different performances, two actors I really like in Cusack and Paul Dano. It's just like, it's a movie, you could never predict where it's going. Whereas I feel like a lot of these movies, you know exactly what the arc is going to be. And so it's really hard to get to the bar of thrilling you with the way that it's done. But, you know, I think if Joe and Jill Popcorn were making this list, like, it would be very different. You know, it would be like Straight out of Compton. It would be Ray. It would be Walk the line. Yeah.

[C]

Black Opal 9.

[A]

Right.

[D]

How do you feel about those kinds?

[A]

I really don't like them.

[D]

You don't like it when they're like, it's this person, but it's not this person.

[C]

Like Velvet Goldman.

[D]

Velvet Gold Mine.

[A]

Oh, those. Yeah, that's what I. I mean, it probably. It probably depends on the movie. Honestly, I don't have anything against it.

[D]

I feel like Velvet Goldman was really, really good.

[A]

It is. It's so hard to imagine because, you know, the intention of the movie when Hanes started it was just to make Bowie and Iggy and just do, you know, you know, T. Rex, like, just to represent all of those people. There's something interesting in him having to change it. And it makes for a fun, like, oh, is kind of guessing game quality.

[C]

A lot more creative freedom.

[D]

I mean, I think that it's less hitting you over the head, which is, I think, one of the worst feelings. When I watch these movies. The thing I feel is like, oh, you think I'm so stupid. You think I'm an idiot.

[A]

Yeah, I think we're at a. A disadvantage when watching them because we know a lot about these worlds. You know, we've spent a lot of time. You know, you haven't spent as much time in the music criticism gold mines.

[B]

Among you and around You?

[E]

Yes.

[D]

I didn't learn much about Nebraska. I learned it all after the fact. That's why when I was watching it, I was like, who is this for? Is this for some. Is this for someone who knows everything about it or nothing about it? Because you got to pick one. I feel like I was down the middle.

[C]

I was like, in the 70th percentile of knowing about Nebraska, and I think it misses for everything.

[B]

And you still didn't know who that guy was?

[E]

I didn't.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

I didn't know who his driver was.

[A]

Okay, so what's like, your next Nebraska? What's the one music biopic that you're like, this shall not pass.

[C]

I don't want to ever see a movie about the Clash.

[D]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

I don't want to see, like, I. Cause that also, like, West Way to the World. And a lot of the docs about the Clash are incredible. I think the Clash have these, like, really amazing, distinctive eras with a lot of drama to them. They would probably work as movies, but I don't have a ton of confidence that it wouldn't be like, this is about when they played Shea Stadium and played Should I stay or should I Go?

[D]

You know, let me ask you a related question. When I get the funding to make my Slits biopic, am I allowed to have the question? Yes.

[E]

That's the way to do it.

[C]

You should do more things like that.

[D]

Thank you.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

You guys bang my line. I'm ready to make this film. Yeah.

[A]

Who do you think was listening or.

[C]

Watching that Jerry Bruckey I'm part of.

[B]

I was like, who is this Dazzler.

[C]

Fun in a Dinosaur junior Shirt?

[D]

Beautiful podcast as a launching pad for my illustrious career. I know you don't support female director.

[A]

I just watched a film that I worked on that was made by a female filmmaker.

[D]

I know that 20 hours ago, you. You support all female directors except me.

[A]

There's a female director on this episode.

[D]

Today, and I don't know what your problem is, but it's going to be really good. My Slits book.

[C]

You got the Replacements movie maybe coming.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that inspired this exercise, which I am genuinely concerned about. I think, you know, it is based on Trouble Boys, the great, great, great vampire book.

[D]

Fantastic, fantastic book.

[A]

That's an amazing book. The replacement is one of my favorite bands. One of our favorite bands. One of your favorite bands. But Finn Wolfhard is adapting that film with his dad, right? And that's.

[B]

Which one is that?

[D]

The Stranger Things.

[A]

Stranger Things.

[D]

He is a musician. I'm trying to Be hopeful and positive.

[A]

Finn Wolfhard is not giving the mats at all, like at all.

[D]

I know. That's the other problem.

[A]

That's one that's like. That kind of sent a chill down my spine when I saw that happen.

[D]

That's my favorite band. I'm feeling. I think they should cast me in it, number one.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

And then hire me as a consultant. I know probably more about the Replacements than almost anyone on Earth.

[A]

Well, Finn Wolfhard will put you to the test. So that is happening. That's already egregious to me. It's Beastie Boys. I feel like Beastie Boys, they should not do that. There will be a lot of temptation to do that. Those are three great star parts. Three really charismatic guys. You know, our like American version of the Beatles nightmare to me is like three Beastie Boys.

[D]

Three Beastie Boy.

[B]

That would be so awful.

[A]

You know, 3:20 and then Money Mark.

[D]

Is the fourth one.

[A]

That's just.

[C]

What if Spike Jonze was directing it?

[A]

Well now, if. If you told me that there was like a form breaking version of the movie or more of a 24 hour party people, I would certainly entertain that. If it was like Def Jam in 1987, that would be exciting.

[D]

Right?

[A]

But anything that's like cure the trials and travails of these three guys.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I worship them. It's not about them. It's about what it would do to my feelings about them. So that would be my choice.

[C]

Do you have one?

[B]

Yeah. But it's not out of personal protectiveness. It's out of like, I don't think that I or we collectively as a society can live through a Taylor Swift biopic. Yeah, like we straight up, we just like we cannot.

[C]

Which she cast herself as Taylor Swift.

[B]

I was gonna say.

[D]

I feel like we are living through Taylor Swift.

[B]

I like the new album because I don't really listen to the words and I've been there through a lot with her. We just can't like, can you imagine?

[A]

We cannot do it in this case. Would it be her as herself?

[B]

I mean, that could be tough. Or imagine her casting someone you know as her and then directing what it was.

[A]

Sabrina Carpenter is Taylor Swift.

[B]

I mean, there we go.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

None of them would be good.

[A]

What's yours?

[C]

That's a really good pick though.

[B]

Thank you.

[D]

Earnest is going back to camp. I believe that you can make a beautiful and good and interesting version of any music biopic. I don't know that they will.

[A]

There's not a single artist, Kurt Cobain.

[E]

Leave it Alone.

[C]

Don't make.

[B]

Leave Kurt Cobain alone.

[D]

I think they probably will make that film. And they already did make kind of. Gus Van Sant made that pretty difficult film, Last Days. That's right. I saw it.

[C]

That was the kid from Boardwalk Empire.

[D]

Yeah, Michael Pitt.

[C]

Michael Pitt, right.

[A]

Can we just have a sidebar quickly? This came up in the office yesterday. Oh, nirvana in 2025.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, now I see a lot of teenagers wearing in utero T shirts.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say I see a lot of five year olds wearing. You know, so that's happened.

[A]

Right? And that happened every generation. That happens too. Right. Like, I got a little kid. I'm not gonna force Nirvana on her. But if she liked Nirvana, I'd be pretty excited.

[D]

She has a PJ Harvey shirt.

[A]

She does. She definitely has not heard dry yet, but she will one day.

[D]

She'll know all about it.

[A]

What do you think Nirvana means to America right now? Why do you sound like Charlie Rhodes?

[D]

Oh, great. Are you running for office? Um, it's really hard. This is funny that you asked me this because, like, a couple months ago I went on a British podcast with Miranda Sawyer the great about the 90s, and I talked about Nirvana and I like. The clip they chose is about me saying, I guess mistakenly, like, okay, Boomer, six seven, vibes. Sorry to bring up six, seven, Jack.

[A]

Oh, my God, that's a whole other podcast.

[D]

But I. But I was like, oh, I feel like Nirvana is sort of frozen in the amber of coolness. I feel like, because that was one of the last prominent subcultures, it's still being referred. Like, grunge is still a reference to things that are cool today. But I was. The comments came for me. They were like, okay, ma, people think about the beat. I mean, I was like, oh, my Lord, am I old and out of touch? I mean, it's.

[A]

People were saying that it wasn't. That it's not cool.

[D]

I'm kind of saying, like, you would think that because that was your cool music. And maybe that's totally true because I have no way of living outside of myself, you know, so maybe they're not. I don't know.

[A]

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[B]

Because they, they aren't still around, you know, like it's just, it's just handed down. They are not.

[D]

They didn't evolve into like Pearl Jam.

[B]

Or doing jam band, you know, or they're not like at the, at the Rose bowl with all of the old people.

[D]

Is Oasis uncool by the way?

[B]

They should not. We have the documentary.

[D]

They should not do the Ocean with my rocks.

[B]

Even though it seems like those guys would take some checks.

[A]

The rich text though, you know that relationship.

[D]

Yeah, that would be a comedy. A buddy comedy.

[B]

You like Nirvana?

[C]

I do. I mean I think I also like plenty of contemporary bands who are heavily influenced by Nirvana. So I think whether or not Yassi is washed or not is immaterial. Like there are a lot of bands that do like and you're not washed.

[A]

I have always wanted to do a pod at the ringer called Am I Washed? Where just like every, each episode is a different staffer and then they're being like drilled by a 22 year old staffer with all the references in the world. Should we get that show going? What do you think?

[C]

I think so. But I think the 22 year olds would just be like, no. And looking at their phone, shots fired.

[D]

Do you think the Nirvana biopic though, would be more of an event culturally than the stage? Bruce Springsteen 1, for example.

[C]

I think that would be a real.

[A]

It'd be a very hot button.

[C]

It would be like, what are you gonna do about the image there?

[A]

You know, I just think if you were like, we're making this an epic tragedy. You could, you know, about a person just unable to control the spiral of his life.

[D]

How interesting would it be if they made it only about a different part of his life? This is what I'm asking. Like, please, just like, try to think a little.

[C]

If you want to make a 25 million dollar version of that and make it turn out to make you sort of did that.

[B]

And it was called what about a Different Person? And it was called Back to Black, starring Marissa Bella as Amy Winehouse.

[D]

Hard.

[A]

Hard.

[B]

Refused to see that it was genuinely offensive.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And the way they ended it, which was like with upbeat tears Dry on her own. And then, you know, some. Some block tax. Was it like a end title about. Yeah. And then she died, essentially.

[D]

That's literally how they did it.

[B]

It was horrifying.

[A]

It was very unsuccessful.

[D]

It's all just like late capitalism where it's like, like it's just a cash grab. And so they're not doing the art properly because they have to make the most money possible. And that's just. Then it suffers. Yeah, but this, it's not going to be a classic.

[B]

Nowhere. They did not make choices based on money.

[A]

They didn't. I agree. Which is interesting.

[D]

They made choices based on throwing a dart at a wall.

[A]

No, it was very intentional. It just was the wrong intention or a misbegotten intention. Anyway, it's not a very pleasant place to end this conversation, but this wasn't the most pleasant viewing experience as a movie.

[C]

I still like Bruce Springsteen, though.

[D]

We love Bruce Springsteen in this house.

[C]

He's the best.

[D]

And I still believe that music biopics can be good.

[C]

He is like the best. You know, like, he's like, that's the Boss. Yeah, he is the Boss. Maybe he's not the best.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

I recently told this on another podcast that has not come out yet, but I'm just going to share it right here. So my dad does not like Bruce Springsteen.

[D]

Surprising.

[A]

I'm from New York, not New Jersey. And my dad, one of the primary reasons that he doesn't like him is because he's the Boss. And my dad would literally say When I was a kid, he's not the boss. I'm the boss. Which is one of the most dad things that can possibly be uttered. And, you know, his kids would, like, laugh in his face when he would say this, but I definitely grew up not hating Bruce Springsteen, but just not being in, like, the church. You know, I think for some people, when you grow up, you're in. You have the halo of, like. This is one of the signature emotional songwriters of the era, and I didn't have that, so I didn't even have that portal to this.

[C]

I tried to end this on a positive note, but you brought it back.

[A]

Down to sorry Ed says he's not.

[B]

When are the Beatles movies coming out? 2027 or 2028? Are the Beatles movies You were like.

[C]

I have to keep podcasting through this. Yeah.

[D]

Can I give a quick shout out to my cousin Layla's best friend Coleman, who loves this podcast and recently asked if she was related to me because you say my first and last name on here all the time. And I just want to say to him, hi, Coleman.

[E]

That's right. Yeah.

[D]

Can you guys say hi?

[A]

What's up, Coleman?

[B]

Hi, Coleman.

[A]

Great stuff, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That's a high note, babe. That's how we end, on a high note. Fan service.

[A]

Thank you, Yossi. Thank you, cr. Thank you, boss. You did it, sir. Thank you, dad. It's just us now.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

We can say what we really think about Delivering Me From Nowhere, which is the best movie of the year. God. Let's talk briefly about if I Had Legs, I'd Kick you, which is the new A24 movie that is expanding over the next couple of weeks. Mary Bronstein's on the show. She wrote and directed this movie. She hasn't made a movie in 17 years. She made a movie called Yeast in the kind of high times of the mumblecore New York era. And. And she's been working on this movie for some time based on very specific personal experience of raising her daughter who was struggling with a physical ailment, and she had to travel across the country and take care of her by herself because her partner was not available to her. And it's extremely intimate, harrowingly intimate, quite literally.

[B]

Much of it is filmed in, like, tight, close up around Rose Byrne, who plays the mother who's the star of this film's face. It's just following her.

[A]

So, you know, this is a podcast that supports mothers.

[B]

Sure, yeah.

[A]

Who believes in motherhood.

[B]

Yeah. Thanks so much. We thank you every day for it.

[A]

I responded very intensely to this movie. But I was very curious what you thought about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

No.

[B]

So as I wrote in the doc, I felt like I was gonna throw up throughout this movie, which is said as a compliment. Like, complimentary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But no, I thought this was, like, astonishingly good and an incredible act of writing and filmmaking in a very personally observed way that does speak to a larger experience in the world, AKA being a mother. I did feel like I was gonna throw up, though. It wasn't the most fun I've had at the movies all year, but an amazing performance, amazing writing. I did think that the close up and the claustrophobic decision making in the cinematography was smart and added to. And there's also one decision they make in how they portray the kid that I thought was absolutely wonderful. So, yeah, amazing movie. We are gonna have like a mom and dad summit at the end of the year.

[A]

Yeah. I. I said to you that I think the two themes of movies of some of the best movies of the year, some of which we haven't even had a chance to talk about yet, is that fathers are trying very hard to care for their daughters and they're struggling deeply with that.

[B]

Sure. But also they've realized that it's a beautiful thing. Fatherhood is beautiful and emotionally rewarding.

[A]

It can be. It can also reveal the male flaw. Kind of primal male flaw.

[B]

But it's worth it.

[A]

But it's worth it. I agree.

[B]

You guys are going through it.

[A]

I saw one battle after another for the fifth time last night with some colleagues, and it was probably my most emotional screening yet.

[B]

It's a beautiful movie. I really, really like it.

[A]

You know, sentimental value is about that. There's a handful of Hamnet is related to parenthood.

[B]

It's about both.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

There are a couple more.

[A]

And motherhood as well. The other theme this year is sort of like, you motherfuckers don't realize that being a mom is insane. That's kind of what. And you know, Die My Love is coming out in a couple of weeks. We'll talk about that film soon. The new Jennifer Lawrence, Lynne Ramsey movie.

[B]

And I think also about that. It's obviously like a lesser theme in one battle after Another, but I think it's, like, very beautifully done there.

[A]

The powerful alienation of giving birth and then how to be a person after that, which I think if I had legs, I'd kick you is a really interesting exploration of that. Because it's not about a mom with a newborn.

[B]

Yeah. It's not about postpartum. It's just about like being a mother in the world and all the different types of people or systems that where the ways our world is organized that just like don't support it at all or don't like. It's not even that they don't acknowledge it, but it's just so much is assumed and taken for granted.

[A]

And there's one little detail in the movie that I really like, which, you know, I'm obviously not a mom, but I do relate to, which is very early in the film, Rose Byrne's character is trying to get her family home, get her daughter home and inside and she's got a pizza and they're going into the house and her daughter off camera is sort of like screaming because something is going wrong. And the anxiety and intensity is already building and the pizza has already fallen over and is kind of a mess. And she just kind of shoves a giant piece of cheese into her mouth.

[B]

Really funny.

[A]

And just like the act of eating while parenting is a really difficult survival strategy. And I'd never seen it expressed quite so specifically and perfectly funny as her shoving that pizza cheese into her mouth.

[B]

I mean, I've got a dissertation on the. I guess it's the family support group or the mom support group when we get there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, which is like some of the best writing I've seen this year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's really an amazing Rose Barn performance and I hope that she continues in the Oscars conversation.

[A]

I hope so too. Obviously a great actress who's had a really varied career and has been in big Hollywood box office films, comedies, a great dramatic actress, has been a big.

[B]

TV star now, like I did think about her in Neighbors, you know, in this.

[A]

And it's funny like her motherhood in that movie. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

It's a different. It's, you know, an evolution of it.

[A]

She's very fearless. Is always a dumb thing to say, but she's always very willing to kind of like de. Glamorize herself in aid of telling the story. Well, what'd you think of Conan o'? Brien?

[B]

Really funny.

[A]

Yeah, it was pretty effective. Right.

[B]

And like a good use of. And so he plays a therapist. So, you know, we were just talking about therapy culture in. And I'm usually against that in the text of a movie. But it is, I think, used very smartly.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And is examined, which ironically is not often the case in movies about analysis.

[A]

Yes, A movie, I mean. And also Rose Byrne's character is also a therapist. And so, you know, and it takes place inside of the Business of that world in a way that I think is pretty revealing. This movie is a very cool accomplishment. And you can also feel Mary is married to Ronald Bronstein, who is an editor and filmmaker himself who works with the Safdies. This movie is produced by Elara. It is definitely kind of tonally in the realm of Uncut Gems and Marty supreme. And the way that there is a. Of forced intimacy with difficult moments in life that is maybe its own new subgenre of movie that I like. I don't know if I could do three to six of these a year.

[B]

No. Like I said, it was really, really intense. And I was really moved and also ran out of there when it was over and went home and hugged my kids.

[A]

Okay, don't run anywhere. Stick around now for my conversation with Mary Bronstein. Mary Bronstein is here. First time on the show. Hi, Mary. How are you?

[E]

I'm great. How are you doing?

[A]

I'm really good. I have a lot of questions for you about your film.

[E]

You bet.

[A]

Which I found to be fascinating and invasive in good ways. Do you remember the exact day that you began writing it?

[E]

I do. I do. I started writing this film on the bathroom floor of a really shitty hotel room because it was the only place I could escape to while sharing a hotel room with my daughter. She was little. Lights out at 8. We were roommates in this tiny room with two twin beds. And the only place I could go to be that I could, like, be, I thought, like, do my own thing was this bathroom, turn on the light, Awful fluorescent lighting. I'd be in there every night, drinking, like, cheap wine, scarfing junk food. A lot of Jack in the Box involved in this in San Diego. And one night I was sitting there and I just realized I had this, like, dread, this feeling of dread. And we were there in San Diego because my daughter was getting treatment for illness that she had. She was seven years old and she's 15 now, and she's. And she's great. She's fine. But I had this sense of existential dread that I couldn't put my finger on. And at first I thought it was because of the situation I was in. Like, will she get better? What will happen? Blah, blah. Then I realized it wasn't that at all. It was a feeling that I felt like I was disappearing into because everything, every part of my being was being put into taking care of her and. And making sure that she was going to get better so that we could get back to New York and get back to normal. But then I Realized, oh, wait, she is going to get better. And we are going to go back to New York, to our home, and it is going to go back to, quote, unquote, normal. But, like, what. What then? What then? Because I've been in this state now for so long. We were there for eight months, and she was ill before that, before we even got there. I've been in this caretaking role for so long, it's been my whole life. What then? What's going to happen? And I literally, in. In a very literal sense, felt myself disappearing. My being, my. My. My self. And I started writing the script in that bathroom in that state and in that physical place and in that emotional place right there. And I just started writing it. And I first started writing it to kind of, like, give myself a way to express all of these things I was feeling, but also a way to, like, set. Have a hope for the future. Well, if I'm writing this thing, it's not. I am not writing it to put it in a drawer later. I'm not Emily gonna. Emily Dickinson. This. This is gonna. I want to make this. I want to make this movie. And it saved me in a little bit of way. It gave me an answer for what could be the future.

[A]

Were you explicit about the fact that you wanted to make it as a film, or just that even the idea of being creative at that time gave you hope for the future of yourself?

[E]

Yeah, that's a really good question. That I wanted to make it into a film because part of. I had this existential crisis, like I said, and part of it was coming back around to. I had made my first film, you know, in 2008, and then I made some shorts, and then I disappeared from that world. And. And. And part of the existential examination crisis that I was going through, I came around to the fact that, hey, wait a minute. I've been running away from this thing. Like in. In the movie, the character is running away from herself. I've been running away from myself. I'm. I'm a filmmaker. I'm a screenwriter. That's what I am. I'm gonna. That's what I am, and that's what I want to do. And I was so outside of the. Of any sort of way to imagine that the movie would get made. And so outside of any system and certainly like the standard industry at that point, at any point with my work, that it was really felt like a fantasy that it would get made. But I knew that I had to. I had to. I had to because I had something to say and it was something urgent. And so many movies get made where the person has nothing to say and there's no. That person is not in that movie. Their fingerprints are not in that movie. And when they talk about the movie, they can't talk about it because they had no reason to make the movie other than to make a movie. I had a reason to make a movie. I had something to say. And so it was that, with that energy and that sort of tenacity that I barreled forward.

[A]

It doesn't scream blockbuster. So how do you get people to agree to make the movie? How do you raise money? How do you actually go from where you were when your daughter was seven to now where she's 15? What happens in that? Eight years?

[E]

Yeah, I mean, really, it was the script. I honed the script over a two year period and then started sharing it. And you know, I had the experience where everybody that read the script said, oh my God, this is the best script I've ever read. But we can't make this movie. Which. Which doesn't make any sense.

[B]

Right.

[E]

But the reason why I was getting those responses was because it's not like you said, it's not a blockbuster. Although I do. I did bust a block in Australia. There was.

[A]

Did you?

[E]

At a movie theater. There were people lined up around the block and I was like, that's a blockbuster. That counts.

[A]

I take it back.

[E]

I'm sorry, but I busted a block once.

[A]

But how long was the block? Do you have like yardage or.

[E]

They were around. I feel like if it goes around a quarter, that counts.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

So we'll see.

[E]

We'll see if it happens again. I don't know.

[A]

You've made a blockbuster.

[E]

Yeah, but no, it's not. It's a movie where the central struggle of the movie is not a commercial one. It's a creative one. And those are movies that when they can slip through the system and get made, I think for viewers are the most exciting because it doesn't happen all the time. And for me, really, it was my script that got this done. Everybody responded to the script so strongly. But some people, you know, they didn't want to take the risk. Other people wanted me to change ideas in the script, which I was not willing to do, so I would walk away. Other people had like really bizarre ideas about how I should change the script to make it more commercial.

[A]

Can you give me an example of one?

[E]

That it should be a. That it should focus on a story of a. Of a missing woman. And really lean into, you know, that there's the police looking for her, and. And it's a crime thing.

[A]

Gone Girl, your story of lost identity. Yeah, yeah.

[E]

It's like, well, no, no, no, that's not right. So I walk away. You have to have confidence. You have to have a lot of confidence in your ideas to say no to those people and those situations. When I finally got around to a 24, I was so confident in my script and so full of a sort of rage that I had been pushing this boulder up a hill for so long that I approached it with a very sort of radical, like, this is the script. This is the movie. No notes on the script. Do you want to make it or not? And they said. And they said, yeah, we want to make it. And I had to go through all that time. I had to go through that rejection to get to that point. And then once I got there, I had partners who trusted me, trusted my ideas, and really let me do my thing. That doesn't mean that it was a cakewalk making the film and making sure that my ideas were. Not that I wasn't making creative concessions, but I was in the right place to be able to have those fights and win them.

[A]

So I'm really curious about whether or not the visual language of the movie was in the screenplay, because you've made such a series of very specific choices. And how would you communicate that out in the writing? Because I feel like that also informs, like, whether or not somebody really gets what you're trying to accomplish.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, totally. I'm a very. So I wrote the script knowing that if it was going to be made, I was going to direct it. So I wrote it really as a director's script. So I'm also a very visual writer. So I think a screenplay. There's different ways to look at a screenplay. Some people look at a screenplay as a blueprint for something that will be created in the form of a film or a TV show. I think the screenplay is a piece of work on its own, is a piece of literature on its own. But the job of it is that while you're reading the screenplay, the reader should be seeing the movie in their mind. That's a good screenplay. That's a screenplay that you read in one sitting, you know, and. And. And that's. That's how I wrote it. Where the visual choices that you see in the film, those are. Those are in the script because those are central conceptual ideas that inform everything about the movie. I can't imagine writing a script for this movie that didn't have any of that. And then coming up with those ideas later, it's how the story is told. It is the story, all of those elements. And so there's a lot of parts that were difficult to put on paper because they're quite abstract and, and those were the difficult parts of, of, of writing. But you know, but yeah, that's how it was. So the conceptual elements that you're talking about, like not seeing the daughter, the abstractions of what I call the void, the hamster, um, stuff, all of that, the breathwork stuff, the imagery that gets abstracted there. Even the sounds, even the sounds are in the screenplay.

[A]

This is an obvious one. But even the idea of just how close the camera would be to an actor.

[E]

That's in there. That's in there, yes. So while I'm writing the script, I'm also visually, visually giving the, the reader what the movie is going to be. And for me, as someone that was writing it, wanting to be the person to direct it, I'm also giving myself that gift and all of who's going to be the people that's going to help me execute my vision, that gift. Because then I have a document that they can read, that they can understand what I mean. Instead of me trying to translate it just from my brain. It can start from there and then the conversation can start from there.

[A]

It also feels like it's maybe potentially a warning to a certain kind of actor who isn't ready to take a leap with something like this. That like. Sure. So I feel like Rose signing on to do it. You know, that's a, this is a very. I don't know if risky is the right word, but you know, it's, it's a very intense part. I imagine it's very intense.

[E]

Making is, it's, it's, it's. You know, when I was, when I was writing the script, I kept thinking of it as like a gift that I was going to give an actress because the character is a middle aged woman who is in the. And it's, it's radically in only her point of view or in her reality. I'm writing it, I'm directing it. That doesn't exist. That doesn't exist. There are not parts for middle aged women that are like this where you, if you're a performer, where something that you can really secure your, sink your teeth into and really like go there emotionally, which is what every actor wants to do. That's why they are actors. And I knew that I was also Writing a really big check that somebody the actress would have to cash and it can bounce or else the whole thing doesn't work right. And so Rose was always on the top of my list for, like. For a few reasons. One, she's. I mean, she's. She's an incredible talent. I think she's. I'm biased now, but. But. But at the time, even when before I knew her, I thought she's one of the best that we have working today. She's somebody that has this, like, rare combination where she has a innate understanding of comedy and comedic timing that you can't teach and also has the ability. Is an exceptional, proper, technical actor. This woman, you know, has played Madea on stage and she also can be in Bridesmaids, and she also can be in Platonic, but she can also do something like the show physical, which. When I saw the first episode of that show, I felt like that was the audition tape for this movie. I saw it and I was like, she can do this. She can do this. And she's also beloved. If you mention. Whenever I would mention, oh, who's in your movie? Rose Byrne. I love Rose Byrne. Universally. Universally. That's the thing. So then I can also. I'm harnessing that as a tool as well, because when her face comes on the screen, it's a face that the viewer is used to. They have goodwill towards her. They're used to seeing her in things that make them feel good, that bring them joy, that make them laugh. And so having. I used that as a tool too, because I'm taking the audience into some really. Of really dark places. And if I have somebody at the helm of it who, even if it's just subconscious you feel good about, I'm going to be able to go even further. And Rose is, you know, the script is very. Is very difficult to perform. Sometimes you're getting a laugh on the heels of a very serious scene or. And the opposite, and sometimes it's happening inside of a scene. You're getting a laugh inside of a very tense scene. And she can do that. There's a very small list of people who can do that. And for me, she's at the top of it. And this performance is beyond my wildest dreams. She availed herself to me creatively so fully. She turned herself inside out and upside down for this thing. It's a physical performance as well, and it was very intense.

[A]

I wanted to ask you about what it's like to put your experience on screen in front of so many people. I know it's not a documentary. And I know that certain aspects of the story are changed, but even just hearing you describe the genesis of the idea, like it seems like there are legitimate one to one points of comparison.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

The way that I think about it is it's certainly not an. I would never say it's an autobiographical film in the traditional sense, but it's emotionally true. Everything in it is emotionally true, which is what I was trying to get at. So it started. The impetus for it is a true thing. And then I'm trying to take. What I was trying to do is take that, those, that, those feelings that I was having, that, the, that. That existential terror that I was experiencing and abstracting it out into a story that is pretend, you know, and it's, It's. So all of it is based in.

[B]

Truth.

[E]

But most of it is a fantasy. It's pretend. It's a movie.

[A]

There's a tract related to that that I want to ask you about. So because any character that's a mother in a movie, if they do something that is not an expectation of motherhood, if they break a rule, that immediately gets identified as an unlikable character. Right.

[E]

Sure. Yes.

[A]

And you're trying to create like a nuanced portrayal of a sensation that you have. But then do you know when you're writing and making the film that that's immediately gonna be like something you're gonna have to tangle with the idea of being like you have ceded your responsibilities or whatever the castigation ends up becoming.

[E]

Absolutely. And that's part of what I was. That's part of. Also what I was trying to do is subvert that. And not only subvert it by putting the subversion is putting the audience in her. In her reality totally. So that there's no, there's no. There's nowhere else to go but her experience and her reality and what her. What she's feeling and what she's experiencing. Some of the things she's experiencing, we. We don't know if they could be happening or they could not be happening. It's. That's for the viewer to decide. And some of the things that she's doing are objectively wrong. And some of the things she's doing ride the line. Maybe. I don't know. And then some of the things she's doing. I know, I know even when I'm writing the script, I'm going to lose some people here. It doesn't scare me. It doesn't scare me because one thing that I train to do, and I want to do in all my work and I have done in my previous work is put women characters on screen that we do not see on screen but that we know they are real people that we have encountered in life. Whether. Whether. However it is, they are people that exist. When you go through life, there are some people who you don't like. When you go through life, there's some people who you like, but then make some choices that you don't like. And you have to make a decision on how you're going to handle that as a person. Film is an art form that is a reflection of life. It is a moving, breathing, alive thing. That's what makes it different than a painting or even a book or something like that. And so I think the whole idea of it being this taboo thing to have the audience have to grapple with those things while watching a film is just. Doesn't make sense to me. Because you grapple with it every single moment of your day. Even going to get your coffee, even, you know, doing anything, much less with your actual, like, intimate circle of people. Your spouse or your children or your. Your parents or whatever. You're grappling constantly with human beings who. Who you don't. Who are. Who. Who you don't like all the time. But that you have a. But that you. It's an empathy test. It's an empathy test. Can you. And that's what film is to me. Can you sit in the dark for two hours and get into somebody else's experience that has nothing to do with yours and find yourself in it? And when you find yourself in it, that's empathy. And that's gonna erase the concept of, do I like this person or do I not like this person? It becomes beyond that. And my. Also, I have this idea too, that if you watch a film and a character offends you, you need to look at yourself. You need to look at yourself. Because what about it is bothering you so much?

[B]

Much?

[E]

And I'm interested in that. I'm interested. I'm interested in. In that. In reactions to my film. But beyond that, just in. As a. As a person, I'm fascinated by human behavior. I'm fascinated by the things that people do that don't make sense to me and how. How to make sense of it, because we're. Because I am a person too. So why am I a person that didn't do that? And that person is. And that's all in the movie. That's all in the movie. Me, myself, I went and I Went to the bathroom and turned the light on and would spend the night in there, you know, with wine and junk food. Linda leaves the hotel entirely. There's a difference there. There's a big difference there. And. And what I'm fascinated in is where. Where. Where does that division come. Come and how do we feel about it? And like, at the end of the day, like, art to me is communication, whether any form, whether it's a song or. Or painting or a book or poem or film or whatever, it's a form of communication. And there's also. There's films that you consume that are. That are to be. And that are to. To be sat there and be entertained. And then there are films that are to be experienced and those are the ones that are communicating to you. And so if you turn your back on it, but it's because you don't want to be in that conversation, that's how I feel.

[A]

So I have been thinking about how to share this movie with my wife. We have a young daughter and I suspect that the loss of self, that is a big part of the story. I think it's. It's fair to guess she'll click with it. But I also think it will make her feel something that maybe she doesn't wanna feel. Like she'll identify, but it will hurt. I'm speculating. I don't wanna speak for her, obviously, but it's very hard to not think about that, watching the film from my perspective.

[E]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I guess I'm curious about how you feel about that, about. Is it better to see something and click with it even though it hurts? Or maybe how you think about even what people have told you about experiencing the movie because it is so intimate and specific. And there are not a lot of movies about this.

[E]

No, there's not. I think that one of the things about the movie that's been most powerful for people, that people have directly expressed to me is that. Is that thing that you're saying is that these are things that, like, women are trained. The whole movie is about something that. That women are trained not to talk about. Because these feelings feel like a betrayal to your child. You can love your child and also say or feel that sometimes you need a break. Sometimes it's too much. Sometimes you've reached your point. Sometimes you're. You just want to take a nap and you. And. And it's. You can't believe that. You can't. Because you're responsible for this other human being. Sometimes you want to just run away and you can't because, again, you're responsible for a human life. And in our culture, we do this really weird thing to women where it's like, like, mothers are, like, revered and, oh, a mother is the best thing. Oh, mother. But it's also completely disrespected and dismissed and ignored as far as what it actually is to be a mother. And let's broaden it out to a caretaker of any sort. The responsibility of that can sometimes feel crushing. Crushing. And, and the 24 hours of it, the 24 hour, they're like, like it doesn't stop. And you are. You are constantly being needed for something and you're constantly fulfilling needs. And then at a certain point, it's sort of like, well, I have needs. I'm a human being. I was a full, fully formed human being, individual person before I had a child. Why, why does that change once I have a child? Why is that expected to change once I have a child? Now, it doesn't mean that you. I'm condoning the things that Linda does, but the things that Linda does are.

[C]

Are.

[E]

Come out of that feeling. They come out of that feeling. And so I can. I can, I can have them in a film because it's not as scary as actually, like, thinking of doing it yourself. And the idea that women don't even talk about this with each other, by the way, it is verboten. It is taboo to say. My kid really annoyed me last night in this one millisecond of a moment. I didn't like my kid. But you're a human being and your kid's a human being, and that's normal. It doesn't mean that you're bad. And then there's this whole other thing that we do to mothers, which is that the only way we can talk about it is by making it a joke. Like, bad moms, like, oh, like it's wine o' clock mommy juice. Like all that stuff and you. And making a joke out of it, right? And it's like, no, moms. When kids go to bed, moms drink. And why? Because it's a way to escape without actually doing what Linda does, which is putting her child actually in danger by leaving the premises. And so it's like if somebody, a woman sees themselves in, in the film in a way that scares them. That's the thing that they, that they should be thinking about, about themselves and, and, and, and why it scares them. And, and how maybe to recalibrate things so that it's not something that. That is a part of their Life, because it doesn't have to be.

[A]

So I have a related question. If it's too personal, you tell me. Has your daughter seen this movie?

[E]

No, she's not seen the movie. She says to me that she doesn't ever want to see the movie, and that's fine.

[A]

What does she know about it?

[E]

What she knows about it is that it's. Is that it is inspired by. By an experience that. That we had together. But that what. The way I've explained it to her is that it is not a story about the daughter. Because I always said. I said to her from the beginning, if you want to tell your story, you can do that one day if you want to. I'm not telling your story. What I'm doing is telling a story about a mother in this situation. And the mother is. Is me. But it's. It's my feelings. It's not. It's not my. It's not about me either. And she understands it in that way, and it's. Accepts it in that way. She's very proud of the fact that at the end, there's a card that dedicates it to her. Very proud of that. And she's very proud of me. But she said to me, is it okay if I never watch the movie? And I said, it's absolutely okay. It's okay with me. Because we also had a shared. We. We had a shared trauma in the movie. Linda is running away from a very specific trauma that has to do with this situation. And she's running away, and she's running away. And she's running away by. By drinking, by doing drugs, by literally running away by, you know, all of these things, by doing. Trying to do breath work, going. You know, and it's like this idea where trauma, it's inside of you whether you deal with it or not. And it's gonna get you. It's gonna get you. And in this movie, it gets her. It slaps her in the face, and she. She still can't deal with it. She still can't deal with it. And so it's talking up. So I. I explain it to her in that way. Is that I. Is that your story? Is your story? I have my own trauma about it. And that's what this movie is about. It's why I also make some conceptual choices, like not showing the daughter because.

[A]

Does she know how it ends?

[E]

No. Okay. No. No, she doesn't. She knows very little about it. In fact, one time. Yeah. The reason that I don't show the daughter is. Is For a couple reasons. One is, like I said, it's not the daughter story. I wanted to. Very radically, you know, the bad version. The bad version of this whole thing is like a slick sort of like Lifetime movie, you know, Mother on the Verge. You know, we, we know those movies. We, we know those. You know, they exist. This. I want to do something different, which is. No, no, no. But it's not about her and the daughter. It's about her. And the daughter is one of the things in her life that she feels oppressed by. And we, we hear her voice, but we don't see her. There's two. There's two reasons for that. One is that Linda cannot see her daughter in a figurative sense, as anything other than something that's another thing that's oppressing her and put upon her and an obligation and needing her and wanting from her. She can't see her as a. As a. As a little human person. She can't derive joy from her child. She's bitter about the fact that she can't be a regular mom, that she has to contend with this. This is not why she. This is not what she signed up for. Right. And she's. And she's fighting against it. And then the other reason is that once you introduce the face of a child, just as human beings, the way we're programmed, your sympathy is going to go with the child automatically. We can't help it. That's how we're programmed. Unless you have no soul. So I'm having, I'm having this character do things where I need that not to be a complication in the way that the audience is looking at this woman. It's a. Again, an empathy test. And if I was to have the daughter in there for the whole time, it wouldn't work. It wouldn't work. And then hopefully, you know, there's a payoff for the audience that, that, that I have, that, that I know works because people have expressed to me that is a payoff that sticks the landing. And it. And it's kind of speaks to everything that I just said. Everything that I just said becomes true. And I don't want to give it away, but, you know, it's a. It's a. Also, I want to say, like in the script level, I made that choice already. That was one of the first choices I made that we're not going to see the daughter. That was a real trust me moment for, for everybody. Trust me, Trust me, Trust me. I didn't know if it was going to work or not. But I, I had to. I had to have everybody trust me that it was going to work. And then I think it does work. And I feel like it's one of the things that I'm like, oh, man, I pulled that off.

[A]

I think it works. And it. And I agree that it sticks the land.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you, Mary. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen. Have you seen anything that you've liked recently?

[E]

Well, while I, I haven't seen anything new.

[A]

That's okay. Could be anything.

[E]

Because I, I, I. When I'm creating, I can't take in new other people. I don't want to take in other people's ideas. And this has been such a long process. But the last great thing I saw. That is a really good question. I rewatched who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf recently. I hadn't seen it since I was maybe in college. And it always was in my mind. It was in my mind as this thing that was like the greatest of a example of a chamber piece. Four people in a room, all performance. The movie is performance. And then I was like, does this hold up? That it holds up. It holds up. Elizabeth Taylor is kicking ass and taking names. And it is, I think, if any, probably most of your listeners have seen it, but if they have not, they should see it right away because it is an example of a movie that doesn't need anything but a great performance.

[A]

So interesting, too, because it's kind of similar to your movie, which is like. It's a confrontation of discomfort that there is those conversations those characters are having. Rough, especially for that time in a movie.

[E]

It's rough. And it's. You know what I love about. About reference, like, a pure reference, is that, like, we watch all these movies. We. We digest them. They become part of our DNA. They become part of our, our, our. They. They sometimes change the way our brain works. They're inside our bodies. And if it comes out and work in a way that I don't even know, that's a pure reference. It's like Orson Welles says, like, the worst thing to happen to filmmaking is the homage. I agree. That's making movies about movies. And so when I rewatched it, I was like, this is my work. This is so in my work, but in a way that I didn't even think about when I was making the movie.

[A]

It's a great one. Mary, congrats on the film. Thanks for doing the show.

[E]

Thank you so much. And thank you for having me this was so fun.

[A]

Thank you to Mary Bronstein. Thank you to Yossi. Thank you to cr. Thank you to Amanda. Thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. What's happening next week? What are we doing?

[B]

It's the other side of the festival. Postmortem.

[A]

That's right. So we split this episode in half, actually. We were originally gonna also talk about A House of Dynamite, which was the big premiere that you saw at Venice.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that film is hitting Netflix today. Yes, and we'll talk about it on Monday. We'll see you then.

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