The 10 Best Movies at Sundance, and the Astonishing ‘Nickel Boys’

Summary

The Big Picture – Episode: The 10 Best Movies at Sundance, and the Astonishing ‘Nickel Boys’ Release Date: February 4, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Big Picture, hosts Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins delve deep into the highlights of Sundance 2025, with a special focus on the critically acclaimed film ‘Nickel Boys’. The episode also features an insightful interview with Tim Felbaum, co-writer and director of the Oscar-nominated docudrama ‘September 5’. Throughout the discussion, Sean and Amanda explore various facets of the independent film landscape, dissect notable screenings, and provide nuanced analyses of standout movies from the festival.

---

1. Sundance 2025 Overview

a. Atmosphere and Festival Changes

Sean begins by painting a picture of Sundance 2025 as a festival grappling with significant changes.

Sean [03:00]: “This year seemed a bit challenging with slimmer attendance and concerns about the festival's future location.”

Amanda echoes these sentiments, highlighting the mood as somewhat subdued compared to previous years.

Amanda [14:20]: “The timing post-strikes really affected what could get made and finished, leading to slim pickings this year.”

b. Discussed Films

The hosts navigate through a plethora of films showcased at Sundance, providing their personal takes and critical evaluations.

• ‘Opus’ by Mark Anthony Green:

  Amanda describes ‘Opus’ as a delightful A24 production featuring stellar performances from John Malkovich and Iowa Debery.

  Amanda [18:00]: “It was really fun, and it has these memorable moments that only Mark Anthony could envision.”

• ‘Train Dreams’:

  Sean praises Joel Edgerton’s performance, noting a standout portrayal of a logger in the 1880s.

  Sean [27:36]: “Joel Edgerton delivers a taciturn performance that perfectly accesses his skill. It’s one of the first movies where his anti-charisma shines.”

• Documentaries:

  Both hosts commend several documentaries from the festival, including ‘Perfect Neighbor’, ‘Predators’, and ‘Zodiac Killer Project’, highlighting their depth and the ethical questions they raise.

---

2. Deep Dive: ‘Nickel Boys’

a. Synopsis and Themes

Sean introduces ‘Nickel Boys’ as an adaptation of Colson Whitehead’s novel, directed by Romel Ross, which explores the harrowing experiences of two African American boys in a brutal Florida reform school during the 1960s.

Sean [45:09]: “‘Nickel Boys’ is about two African American boys, Elwood and Turner, sent to an abusive reform school. It’s inspired by the true story of the Dozier School of Boys.”

b. Artistic Choices and Impact

Amanda lauds the film for its innovative storytelling and emotional depth, despite its challenging formal choices.

Amanda [47:42]: “There’s something truly astonishing about how the movie communicates emotion and history so clearly. It’s deeply heartbreaking but electrifying.”

Sean concurs, emphasizing the film's ability to blend form with narrative seamlessly.

Sean [49:22]: “The necessity of the movie is in how it tells the story—its authentic portrayal of the emotional and historical context.”

c. Audience Reactions

The episode highlights varied audience reactions, with some viewers finding the film’s formal experimentation initially distancing, only to be moved profoundly upon deeper engagement.

Sean [55:04]: “At first, the movie felt distancing due to its unconventional perspective, but it gradually drew me in emotionally.”

Amanda [57:20]: “I was both exhilarated by its inventiveness and deeply moved by its story. It stays with you, which is what movies should do.”

---

3. In-Depth Interview: Tim Felbaum on ‘September 5’

a. Inspiration and Research

Sean introduces Tim Felbaum, discussing his motivation to create ‘September 5’, a docudrama centered on the Munich Olympics hostage crisis.

Sean [77:42]: “Tim, where did the story for ‘September 5’ originate, and were you alive during the events portrayed?”

Tim Felbaum [77:44]: “No, I was born 10 years after. I first learned about the events from a documentary and later studied film in Munich, keeping the story very present in my mind.”

b. Storytelling and Structure

Tim elaborates on the film’s structure, emphasizing its 22-hour real-time depiction and the influence of live television operations during a crisis.

Tim Felbaum [81:13]: “We wanted the movie to feel like a constant adrenaline rush, mirroring the control room’s experience during the crisis.”

c. Casting and Authenticity

Discussing casting choices, Tim underscores the importance of authenticity, blending well-known actors like John Magaro with archival footage to maintain historical integrity.

Tim Felbaum [93:15]: “John Magaro was essential for authenticity. Combining his performance with archival footage was crucial to respecting the real events.”

d. Contemporary Relevance

The conversation highlights the film’s resonance with today’s media landscape, drawing parallels between historical reporting and current real-time coverage dynamics.

Tim Felbaum [83:32]: “The film addresses timeless questions about media responsibility and the impact of live coverage, which are incredibly relevant today.”

---

4. Industry Insights and Challenges

a. Impact of Streaming Services

Sean and Amanda discuss the shifting dynamics of independent cinema, pointing out how companies like Netflix and Amazon have disrupted traditional festival models.

Sean [15:32]: “Streaming giants are redefining the purpose of festivals like Sundance, often sidelining smaller distributors.”

b. Independent Film Struggles

The hosts express concern over the dwindling support for independent films amidst corporate consolidation and the evolving market.

Amanda [16:37]: “Netflix’s pattern of disrupting markets and then moving on leaves smaller indie distributors in a precarious position.”

c. Future of Film Festivals

They speculate on the future locations and viability of Sundance, mentioning potential moves to places like Cincinnati or Salt Lake.

Sean [19:11]: “Sundance’s future location is uncertain, with finalists including Salt Lake and Cincinnati.”

---

5. Upcoming Segments and Farewell

As the episode wraps up, Sean and Amanda tease upcoming segments focused on ‘Garbage Rom Com’ and ‘Garbage Love’, promising to dissect popular but critically panned genres.

Amanda [101:33]: “Garbage Rom Com is different from Garbage Love. We’ll explore various examples in upcoming episodes.”

They conclude with humorous exchanges and final thoughts on the discussed films, maintaining the show’s signature blend of insightful critique and personable banter.

---

Notable Quotes

1. Amanda Dobbins [47:42]:

   “There’s something truly astonishing about how the movie communicates emotion and history so clearly. It’s deeply heartbreaking but electrifying.”

2. Sean Fennessey [55:04]:

   “At first, the movie felt distancing due to its unconventional perspective, but it gradually drew me in emotionally.”

3. Tim Felbaum [77:44]:

   “Studying film in Munich kept the story of the Munich Olympics hostage crisis very present in my mind.”

4. Tim Felbaum [93:15]:

   “Combining John Magaro’s performance with archival footage was crucial to respecting the real events.”

5. Amanda Dobbins [16:37]:

   “Netflix’s pattern of disrupting markets and then moving on leaves smaller indie distributors in a precarious position.”

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Big Picture offers a comprehensive exploration of Sundance 2025, spotlighting ‘Nickel Boys’ and providing an in-depth look at ‘September 5’ through Tim Felbaum’s lens. Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins adeptly navigate the evolving challenges of independent cinema, the influence of streaming giants, and the enduring power of compelling storytelling in film. Listeners are treated to a balanced mix of critical analysis, industry insights, and engaging conversations, making it a must-listen for movie enthusiasts seeking a deeper understanding of the current cinematic landscape.

Transcript

[Rob Harvilla]

Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 Songs that Explain the 90s. Except we did 120 songs and now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts. 2000 to 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, JLo, Kanye. Sure. And now the show is called 60 Songs that Explain the 90s. Colon, the 2000s. Wow, that's too long a title for me to say. Anything else right now, Just trust me. That's 60 songs that explain the 90s. Cole in the 2000s preference, preferably on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by the White Lotus Season 3. It's enlightened, it's twisted, and this time we're finding the dark side of an exclusive wellness resort in beautiful Thailand. Expect some picture perfect travelers that are anything but and some cheerful staff that have got a secret or two. Same luxury, new reservations. We can't wait to see what happens. Watch a new season of the Emmy Award winning HBO original series the White Lotus. Premiering February 16th at 9pm on MAX. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. From your morning podcast to your afternoon playlist, State Farm knows you personalize your entire day. And that's why State Farm helps you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Personalize your insurance with the State Farm Personal Price Plan.

[Rob Harvilla]

It offers coverage options that help protect what you care about most at an affordable price.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Just for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Rob Harvilla]

Prices vary by state, options selected by.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Customer availability and eligibility may vary.

[Rob Harvilla]

I'm Sean Fennesee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is the.

[Rob Harvilla]

Big picture 8 conversation Joe about Sundance and many other movies. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Tim Felbaum, the co writer and director of The Oscar nominated September 5, a docudrama about the hostage crisis at the Munich Olympics. Felbaum's film is a taught and well crafted procedural about the ABC Sports producers thrust into covering the event on live television. Felbaum shared how and why he made this movie, which is now available on VOD for those of you who missed it at home. So check out the movie. Listen to the interview. But first, Amanda, we have a lot to talk about today. We have Sundance, your trip to and my viewings of the films At Sundance, we have Nickel Boys. We'll spend some time breaking down one of the best picture nominees and one of the best movies of the year 2024, that is. We'll talk about Goodrich, which comes to us from Hallie Myers, Shire daughter of daughter of Nancy Myers and Charles Shire, the late, great Charles Shire. And what else are we going to do? You want to talk about September 5th at all? Anything to say about it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, sure. Yeah, I liked it.

[Rob Harvilla]

We can dig into it for a few minutes. Couple things to get off our chest. First, programming reminder. For those of you not on social media, we share the schedule for the upcoming episodes this month. One of the things we'll be doing this month is a mailbag. We've done many mailbags over the years. They're often fun. We often source questions for the mailbags from x.com formerly known as twitter.com we're not doing that anymore. No more Twitter questions.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's a no.

[Rob Harvilla]

What we're going to do is primarily use an email address. Bob, what is the email address that people should use? The email address is big pick, mailbag gmail.com bigpick mailbag mail.com. i'm going to say it one more time because people complain about us saying titles too fast.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Say it slow. You want to spell it out?

[Rob Harvilla]

Start again. P I c.mailbag mail.com. okay, so my hope here is that this will elicit even better questions than we've had in the past. We do get great questions, but on Twitter there's a kind of flip quality. I want the sickos, the psychos to come out. Don't share your deep thoughts. Bob doesn't want to read your deep thoughts, but I do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So, a couple, couple notes. I asked for the password and it has not been shared with me to bigpigmailbagmail.com I'll give you the password.

[Rob Harvilla]

That's fine.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, great. So you never know when I'll be logging on and reading and maybe even chaotically responding. Maybe that's, you know, one of the things we can offer here. Can I. Can we just please send us your questions. You're also, we're going to solicit comments on Instagram and TikTok. I won't be looking at the comments on TikTok because I don't have TikTok.

[Rob Harvilla]

Same.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But. And again, because we're 40 years old or so that. But that's okay. It's. We're doing our best. So you can leave your comments there. You can email us. Can you let the people know why the programming changed? Can we pull, you know, the curtain back a little? I'd be happy to because I want some accountability. And also maybe we can help you in real time.

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, last month, in January, we were going to do the Paul Newman hall of Fame. And then our schedule changed in part because of the fires, and we had to move some episodes around and so we moved that episode out of January. I had intended to do it in February, but then I was confronted with 25 new Sundance films to watch this past weekend. And I just have not had time to do what I feel is the appropriate amount of research for the Paul Newman hall of Fame for me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let me read the text message that I received at 9:22 to communicate this.

[Rob Harvilla]

We're going Front street with text messages now.

[Tim Felbaum]

Damn.

[Rob Harvilla]

I didn't know this was fair to you. I'm gonna clock this for all future text messages from you, just so you know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's great. Everything that I put out into the world is insta. Is, you know, made for archiving. I'm proud of my content. Okay. Friday, 9:22pm I made the mistake of acquiring all the pre Hustler. That's the Paul Newman film movies he made. And there's a lot of them and I don't know when I'll watch them. This is definitively a me problem. So what we have here is just the Blu Ray volume is overtaking you.

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, it wouldn't have mattered. I would have tried to watch all these movies with her. Had them on Blu Ray. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I'm gonna try to a lot of them too.

[Rob Harvilla]

But there's. I mean, he. Newman, who's. Who's the greatest.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Made like 15 movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I know.

[Rob Harvilla]

Before he really broke out as a megastar in Hollywood or at least like figured out what his Persona was.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Rob Harvilla]

And so I thought it would be helpful because a lot of them I haven't seen to figure out like how he misstepped or what kind of an actor he tried to be.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally.

[Rob Harvilla]

Or maybe I don't have to watch all of them, but I would love to get into like at least five or six.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, and how much of that was his decision making and how much of that was him in? The 50 studio system is also.

[Rob Harvilla]

I think the latter is a huge, huge part of it. Talk about it at length on the episode. But, you know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no, no, I get it.

[Rob Harvilla]

I in good faith cover those movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So do I. I just, you know, I was just imagining you like, drowning in your. In your stacks of DVDs on Friday night.

[Rob Harvilla]

My Newman stack is large. It's probably going to end up being the largest stack that I've ever done.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

So. And not everything is even available. Anyway, we'll talk about it then.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Rob Harvilla]

So we're not doing Newman this month. Hopefully we'll do it in April. I think March is a little tricky for a variety of reasons. The Oscars, I'm traveling, Bong Joon Ho. There's a couple things going on that are getting in the way.

[Amanda Dobbins]

25 for 25.

[Rob Harvilla]

25 for 25. We're starting in March, so there's a lot of stuff going on then. But hopefully in April, we'll get into Newman. We are still going to do Robert Altman at 100 this year. I think we'll do it in the fall to give a little bit of distance. Those will be the two big projects, in theory. This year we'll do some book clubs. There's plenty of stuff coming. But I just don't have time to do Paul Newman in part because I was doing the Sundance thing. But before we get to Sundance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the Carla Sofia Gascon social media drama had, like, just started when we recorded last Thursday with Joanna. And we knew that it wasn't good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Rob Harvilla]

And we knew that there was some really hateful and weird stuff in her previous tweets.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. But we did not read through all of it.

[Rob Harvilla]

I don't think all of them had been fully unearthed by the time we even recorded.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right, right, right, right. Yes. I mean, that's true, though, again, I do to some extent. I mean, like, everything that has then been circulated is just, like, vile and thoughtless and baffling and. No, thank you.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. Real moron mode for her frequently on social media.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I just. Once again, we were saying unearthed as if someone was, like, hacking for hours on end. These were just publicly available, you know? And this is a movie that was acquired by Netflix in May after Cannes. And Netflix has been running this campaign now for. Let's just count, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December, January. We're in February now. We made it nine months. I had a baby in that time. And no one could just, like, go think to hit it. No one checked. I have some questions.

[Rob Harvilla]

I don't know what to tell you. It's obviously a massive fumble. When we recorded on Thursday, we thought it would affect the race. We weren't sure how much it would affect the race because it was happening in real time over the weekend. One Gascon, I think, made it significantly worse.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Rob Harvilla]

She went on 60 Minutes and gave an interview in which she seemed defensive. She's posting again on social media about this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

A lot of a very long. And here, here's another thing is that I am not a Spanish speaker, you know, and so all of this is, like, being translated. And so we aren't the authorities on what's being said, but none of it is good. Most of it is very bad. And she is seemingly not helping herself.

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, it feels like an interesting controversy as a follow up to the brutalist AI Controversy, where we're sort of like, this is a bad movie for this sort of thing to be happening to. This is obviously a bad controversy for a movie like Emilia Perez, which I think had been vaunted as this progressive ideal of acceptance and multi generational, multicultural, like, thinking about a world beyond our own world and the way that other people experience this world. You know, those themes were kind of, like, baked into the campaign as well as the movie. And so now it feels like they have been really upended, maybe completely rejected. And. Okay, I'll just ask you directly, do you feel like this movie's entire campaign. Best picture, best Supporting Actress for Zoe Saldana. All of these things are imperiled by the comments and the controversy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So Zoe Saldana did win an award this weekend. London Critics Circle is that.

[Rob Harvilla]

Which I think was predetermined.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which was predetermined. But in her acceptance speech, she did say, I wasn't expecting this, especially right now.

[Rob Harvilla]

That's me. Every time you read one of my texts on. On Mike.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I just want to say. And. And also, I think she gave a quote that was like. It just. It makes me so sad because I don't support it, which is just like a perfectly ambiguous. I think she'll be okay. I think that she is.

[Rob Harvilla]

I haven't. I have been plotting.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She is a star and in, like, in her own amazing bubble and is both, like, really aware and also just kind of cutting her own ties. And people like her so much that I think it's okay. I think it's sort of predetermined. I think so.

[Rob Harvilla]

But I think it could be.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, who else is. Who else is in the running?

[Rob Harvilla]

I. I don't know if there is a strong enough competitor.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's tricky because on the one hand, Zoe Saldana is very Hollywood and has worked with everyone and has been hugely successful. And one of the reasons why she's being celebrated is, you know, she took a chance on this movie. She works mostly on studio movies. This was an independent movie. It wasn't a Netflix movie when she signed on, you know, not in English. All the things that she did obviously learn, you know, singing, dancing, all the things that she accomplishes in the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no, no. She didn't learn to sing and dance. Trust me, she has known for many times. Yeah. For many years. Please.

[Rob Harvilla]

She learned the choreography in the songs and all those other things. But she's. She's really great in the movie. I keep saying that over and over again. People are like, what do you think of Emilia Press? I'm like, well, I still really liked what Zoe Saldana did. I think the movie is really undercooked and overthought in a lot of ways. But I do think sometimes when something like this happens, people really back away from the project in general.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think after, if we did the power rankings today, instead of, you know, after, like the first roundup on Thursday.

[Rob Harvilla]

We would push it lower.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No. Or we would spend way less time deliberating. It would be brutalist at 1 and May, and maybe it would be below Anora. Because if someone is voting for this as a repudiation of, like, the world at large or as, like, a statement of their values, then a scandal like this probably also affects their understanding of what this movie represents.

[Rob Harvilla]

Agreed.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Um, we'll see. There's still roughly two weeks of voting. I think February 18th is the cutoff. So we've still got plenty of time here to talk about these issues. Who. Who else will get entrenched in a campaign destroying scandal? We shall see. You know, can anyone come for a complete unknown at this point? It's possible. I wouldn't rule it out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I hope that we don't get, like, the leaks of the. The early vocal recordings. But you see at this point that you like, anything can happen.

[Rob Harvilla]

Okay. I hope we don't learn that AI modified.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I hope we don't either.

[Rob Harvilla]

But, you know, Sundance 2025.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Rob Harvilla]

Some broad strokes before we talk about our experiences from afar. I wasn't there. You were there for a brief period of time. Seemed like it was a challenging year at the festival. A lot of the energy coming out of the festival was a little miserableist, to put a. Put an adjective on it. You know, modestly received. Slate sounded like slightly slimmer attendance. The future of the festival's location is in doubt because it's in theory, next year will be the last year in Park City unless they decide to stay in Park City because there's been some concerns about the real estate opportunities. Genuine anxiety about the future of independent cinema, both in America and abroad, which is interesting because of how many independent films are nominated at the Academy Awards this year and how vital they seem. At least to that race, obviously, coming off of strikes that have.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was gonna say, I know that we keep saying that and about like everything. Anytime it's a disappointing weekend at the box office or anytime we're like, well, not the str as Oscar year or yada yada, we're like, well, it was because of the strikes. But I do think that this moment in time right now, especially for Sundance, is where just timing wise, the effects of the strikes and what could get made and what could get finished is really going to be felt. So I like, I do think it's really slim pickings.

[Rob Harvilla]

I think, I think you're right and it is a factor. The one thing that seems to be impacting this and as of now, as far as I can tell, there have only been three sales through Monday morning. And those movies are together, which is the Dave Franco and Alison Brie thriller that was in the midnight section that sold to Neon. There's Train Dreams, which I'll talk about shortly, which sold to Netflix. And there's Sorry Baby, which sold to a 24 in 20. When did I write this piece? In April of 2017, I wrote a long feature at the site. You might have edited this feature, I don't remember, called the End of Independent Film as We Know It. And the focus of that story was Netflix and Amazon getting very aggressive at Sundance and upending the market and redefining the kind of the purpose of the market at Sundance and all, all festivals. And obviously the way that Netflix has kind of barreled through awards season is a part of this story. But one of the things that I couldn't get out of my head was when I was writing that story and reporting it, I talked to like a dozen filmmakers executives, was what happens when Netflix and Amazon and Hulu and all these other companies decide they don't need these movies anymore.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Rob Harvilla]

Whether they get their own production up and going, whether they decide that the taste of the culture has shifted or that, you know, the kinds of stories that are told and often showcased at these film festivals is no longer on their programming strategy sheet. They have different goals and they have different goals now. Yeah, you know, like underrepresented here, studio wise. No Amazon, no Hulu, no Paramount. I don't think any of those studios even screened any movies. Maybe there was one Republic Paramount movie that I saw, but like, they didn't bring their stuff to the festival and they didn't buy anything. Now maybe they still will. But a lot of these companies kind of like left Sundance in the dust and they've killed a lot of the smaller distributors in the meantime. Think of all of the smaller indie distributors that have died over the last 20 years. So now you've got this genuinely perilous moment in indie movies. And I do think I'm not taking away from the point you're making. A lot of it is like a lot of movies couldn't get made because people couldn't work. But during the strikes, if you were an independent project, you were more likely to work than if you worked on a Sony movie. So I don't know. I don't know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's not good. And I think the broader point that Netflix comes into every single market, blows up the price structure and then moves on to, you know, wrestling or whatever. No offense, I know you love it.

[Rob Harvilla]

But I'm not offended.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's like, that is what happened. We have seen this pattern again and again and again. And so they break the model, reinvent it to their needs, and then move on. And it is a bummer for sure.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, it's kind of a double whammy this year in particular because of the one movie that they did buy. But I'll talk about that in a second. So you went. You were there for a short period of time, but did you sense any of the energy that I'm describing? I'm just basing this on what I've read over the last few days.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I went to see, like a very good Friends movie. I went to see Opus, written and directed by Mark Anthony Green. A24 production. Like A24 brought it. So I was there as a friend and with a sense of personal joy. And that is a film that stars Iowa Debery and John Malkovich. So also like starry, exciting mag, as you know, because he's also a friend, is like, brings people together. So I, I was at like a fun, high energy party. Meanwhile, they have blocked vehicle traffic off of Main Street. Now at Sundance, which I think is, you know, good for the environment and for pedestrians, but just meant that, like, it was literally empty, you know. And so Sundance, Park City, the place felt like, actually empty. And the thing that always happens at any festival but felt heightened here was like, you're walking along and it's just door after door of place is closed to you unless you're there for like, you know, a car brand's, like, activation, you know, party, whatever. And so there's just kind of a weird corporate vacuum in the place itself. So that's what I felt. Again, I was there for about 12 hours. And I also hate the cold, so I was working with that personally.

[Rob Harvilla]

Was it snowing?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, but it had snowed, you know, and it was cold and it was dark and. And it was mountains. Okay. And everything is gray. And, you know, they took Santa Fe off the list of proposed next locations for Sundance. Yeah. It's not one of the three finalists. I think one of them is still Park City or Salt Lake.

[Rob Harvilla]

Salt Lake is a second one, and there's a third one. I can't recall.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is somewhere in Ohio.

[Rob Harvilla]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which. That's cool. If the people of Ohio want to host. But again, Ohio also gets snow, so Santa Fe gets snow, too. But I don't know. The landscape is more inviting to me anyway, so it was like a real quick.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's Cincinnati.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Cincinnati. Okay. Thank you. They have the chili on the pasta, correct? Yes.

[Rob Harvilla]

I don't want to offend any of the fine folks of Cincinnati.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Never been. Maybe I'll go.

[Rob Harvilla]

I haven't been either.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Rob Harvilla]

So, you know, if Sundance moves to Cincinnati, I will go.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You really?

[Rob Harvilla]

I will attend. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's cool. I don't know if I will. Because it snows in Cincinnati in January. Right.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's certainly very cold. I don't know if it snows. I assume it does. I mean, sure. I don't know. Weather reporter, the Farmer's Almanac.

[Amanda Dobbins]

In any. Any season, you're just out on the snowy side. I'm oceans, not mountains. That's just where I am. I'm the seaside, not the mountainside. If the mountains are near the seaside, that's cool. I'll look at them from the beach.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's honestly alarmingly warm in Cincinnati right now. 68 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Again, that's not my fault.

[Rob Harvilla]

68 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They should take that up with their senator turns.

[Rob Harvilla]

That seems uncommon. That's upsetting. If it's 68 degrees, I'm definitely going to Sundance. That sounds.

[Tim Felbaum]

Tomorrow.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's 45 with a low of 25. I mean, I'm similar averse to the cold, as you know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I got to go to Opus. This was. This was a delight. This was the first time that I had seen the movie because Mark Anthony was keeping it from me.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yes. He kept it for me as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But you. You got to see it.

[Rob Harvilla]

I saw the week before. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I just really liked it, and it was really fun, and it is what a lot of things that I want to see in a movie. It's a very, like, pop in A good way. And also really strange. They're like seven or eight different moments where I was like, this is just very memorable. And I guess could only come from Marc Anthony's brain. But also I was like, this is funny that it came from Marc Anthony's brain.

[Rob Harvilla]

I had the same exact reaction.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

I was like, this is so Mag. But also not. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which is. Which was exciting and surprising. And then also, like, I don't. I. I don't want to spoil it because this movie is coming out March 14th.

[Rob Harvilla]

We'll talk about it in depth when it comes out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I encourage everyone to, like, seek it out, but, you know, I had it watching in real time. I was like, okay, so this is a thing, you know, and I could list the moments for you bit by bit, and I'm sure that you have many of them and maybe also some different ones. The music is incredible. I mean, it's done by now Rogers and the Dream, so that's not a surprise. Afterwards, I kept being like. And the music. And Zack was like, yeah, okay, it's now Rogers in the Dream. Like, what did you expect?

[Rob Harvilla]

I did tell Mag, though, that anytime there's original music written for a pop star figure in a movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it's always bad.

[Rob Harvilla]

The success rate is like 14%. It's really.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I know.

[Rob Harvilla]

So that's one of the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was trying to start a best original song campaign on the ground in Sundance. Why not, like, submit it? Because it's the worst category at the Oscars. But this is one of the. There's one song in particular that is, like, it qualifies. It is part of the text of the film and it just. It. It bumps and I can't wait to.

[Rob Harvilla]

We can't wait. We need Malkovich performing live at the Oscars. That's what we need. That would be amazing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We really, really do. So that was fun and that was really wonderful. The other thing I wanted to say about Sundance is that I did meet a lot of Big Picture listeners. Oh, nice. Including. I promised Ben and Dan. I hope I got their names right.

[Rob Harvilla]

Ben and Dan.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, they're twins. And we talked a lot about the Eagles because, you know, I had. There's some anxiety producing things coming up in my household in the next few days. So shout out to them.

[Rob Harvilla]

Ben and Dan are Eagles fans.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, that wasn't clear to me, to be honest. I didn't know Eagles fans or whether they just, like, knew that they had a. Like a moment, you know, and they knew that that was like a way to Speak with me and to. To speak about my emotions. There was another gentleman who. Who was there for Opus. And as he was leaving, he just said to Zach, go Birds. And then he said, and tell Chris Ryan, go Birds.

[Rob Harvilla]

Was it Malkovich who said that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, he wasn't. I don't know who that man was. I don't know whether Zach knew him or whether it was just like the. Like the Go Birds have. Has extended to. To people in the audience. But I met a lot of young people who were just at Sundance to see movies, like, not in the industry, which was really, really cool. Um, and they all seemed very excited, and they seemed like they were having a great time and seeing a lot of movies that they liked. So I know everybody else came out of the festival really cranky. Um, they. It was. It was really exciting.

[Rob Harvilla]

I think that perfectly mirrors a lot of the binary conversations that we have on the show, which is that we remain incredibly excited about movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

The industry remains very dour about its future because boom time is over. Right. Like, the riding high on the hog of, like, even 2010. Forget about 1987. Like, it's over. Like, it's a smaller business than it was, but movies are still good. Actually, you know, Tarantino made some headlines because early in the festival, I think he did a talk with Elvis Mitchell and he pronounced the movie business dead. And movies are dead.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. And so now he's writing plays or something.

[Rob Harvilla]

And so, yes, he's. He's writing a play, which, you know, and, you know, he located 2019 as the year the movies died. Sure. Fittingly, the last time he released a movie. And, you know, I don't agree. Like, I just don't agree. I definitely agree that the business is way smaller. And some of the things that he pointed out that, like, movies get a two week theatrical release and then they go on vod. I agree. It sucks. I think it's terrible. I think they fucked up the theatrical model. I think in some cases, it benefits movies where people can't get out of their house and so they can watch on VOD after a couple weeks. And there is some benefit to that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Certainly benefits a show like ours where people get to watch movies more quickly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was gonna say we are, in fact, now scheduling, like, a lot of our segments based on when movies are available on VOD or on streaming for a wider audience to be able to see them.

[Rob Harvilla]

But the theatrical movie model, it's just changed a lot, and it is smaller. I'll use that as an opportunity to pivot to what I saw at Sundance.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Not in a theater.

[Rob Harvilla]

Not in a theater. Although there is an app so you can watch it on your television. And so watching a movie on my TV is not quite being in a movie theater, but I got a better experience than many people did who watched it virtually. I haven't been to Sundance in person since 2020. One thing to caveat this conversation with is there were seemingly a few fuckheads who were pirating movies off of the app and putting scenes on social media over the weekend, particularly the movie Twinless and the Selena documentary. And so both of those movies, halfway through the fest, the virtual festival, were pulled down from the app because people were pirating them to those people. Fuck off. That's not cool. And I hope that doesn't imperil virtual cinematics.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, you're ruining it for the rest of us.

[Rob Harvilla]

I think that would actually only wound Sundance and the festival apparatus even more. So anybody who does that, whether they were stans or not, should not do that under any circumstance. I did feel lucky to see some movies. There were a bunch this year, maybe even more than normal, that were not made available on the platform. I saw Opus at a screening. Opus was not available. I believe all the A24 films were not made available. There was a focus film starring Carey Mulligan, the Ballad of Wallace island that wasn't available. A bunch of stuff that were theoretically bigger ticket titles. But the titles that'll be out in the next few months, what I did see, I think that there were three big standouts, maybe four, and then some stuff I liked. That's a small number for Sundance. I'm usually able to pull a lot. I didn't see everything, but I did get through about 25 movies. The best thing I saw was Train Dreams. I think this was true for many people who saw it. Train Dreams is an adaptation of a Dennis Johnson novel. An author that I love, but I've not read this book. This is a really short Dennis Johnson book that is sitting on my shelf at home, and I've never read it before, so I didn't know the story. And it's directed by Clint Bentley and written by Bentley and Greg Kuidar. These are the two guys who made Sing Sing. So Clint and Greg, as Greg talked about on the show, when he talked about Sing Sing on the pod, they basically like, trade where Clint makes a movie and Greg helps. And then Greg makes a movie and Clint helps.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's a nice way to do it.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, it is cool. And they obviously have this great partnership Clint had a movie at Sundance a few years ago. Maybe it was Tiff. It might have been Tiff called Jockey. This new one stars Joel Edgerton, your favorite actress. Felicity Jones, Kerry Condon, and William H. Macy. It's primarily Joel Edgerton. It's about a guy named Robert Grainor who is a logger born in the 1880s, and it just kind of charts periods of his life.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Rob Harvilla]

I have been, I would say, unkind to Joel Edgerton as a movie star in the past.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Rob Harvilla]

I have often said you could replace him with most other actors at his level and get a better movie. This is one of the first movies I've ever seen with Edgerton that perfectly accesses his skill, which is. He is like. He has, like a taciturn anti charisma. His, like, internal quiet is used very, very well in this movie. Now I'm very interested to see if you like this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, you're just like, it's about a logger.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's very, very.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Who has, like, dealings with Felicity Jones. At some point I was like, well, I'm out.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I think that's mean.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's not the most Amanda movie I've ever seen, but it is, like a very heartful movie. It is very Malick, which I know you can go either way on it. Does a couple of things.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's good. It's good. And if it's not good, it's not good. That's the definition of which way I go.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. I'm curious to see if these guys get their Oscar revenge with the Sing Sing situation. With their.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. Unfortunately, they were acquired by Netflix. We have some questions. We've got some notes about the Oscar strategy.

[Rob Harvilla]

That is The Tricky Part 1. This movie is beautiful. The opening shot of the movie is something I've never seen before in a movie, but immediately transports you into this world. It's like a camera is affixed to a tree that is being cut down and you move with the tree.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, now you've spoiled it.

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, it's the first thing we see. Okay, well, all right. I won't say anything more about the movie. Yeah. I only saw it on my tv, and while I was watching it, I was like, God, I wish I was in a movie theater for this. Cause it's so beautiful. And then I read that it was acquired by Netflix and I was like, what? Why? Why? Like, of all the. Of all the streamers and corporations, like. And why do they even want this movie? I don't. This movie has says nothing about how Netflix programs their movies. I don't. Is it just an awards play? I found this very disappointing that they bought it. I hope they put in movie theaters. I know they probably won't. It's not a perfect film, but it's very good. I was glad I watched it. People should check it out whenever it's made available to the world. A movie I liked. Yeah, it's called the Things yous Kill. It's a psychological thriller by an Iranian filmmaker named Alireza Khatami. I'm not going to share too much about this movie because it's a bit of a head fuck and to give away any of its plot details I think would ruin it. But if you like the kind of Iranian social realism, like if you like Asgar Farhadi movies or the Panahi movies or Abbas Kiarostami and the sort of like ethereal quality that he brings to his movies, it's kind of like a big stew of those movies. It's set in Turkey, it's not set in Iran, but you know, you can see the major influence on Katami. And then there's like a very David Lynchian quality to it. So it's. It was just sort of well timed since we've been thinking about lynch after he died and thinking about what the way that those influences kind of collide together for a movie that basically you're just waiting to see like what's going to happen. You know, like a kind of traditionally well told story. So I liked that. The. The best movies that I saw this year were three documentaries. They're paired together. Obviously. Documentary is what Sundance is doing really well these days. The names of the movies are the Perfect Neighbor, Predators and Zodiac Killer Project. I'll tell you about them very quickly. I think you'll probably be hearing about the first two throughout the year and we'll probably be talking about them at this time next year. The Perfect Neighbor is directed by Geeta Gandhier. It is about a terrible crime in Florida in a small neighborhood. And it's told entirely through police body cameras. But it's not a movie about police brutality. That they're basically just the vessel to tell the story of a dispute between neighbors. And it's sort of like it's a portrait of community problems and the problem of stand your ground laws, which if you're not familiar with them, you know, they're about the right to a certain experience in a home that Florida, I think, passed, I want to say, 15 years ago. There's just an alarming incident rate in the aftermath of the passing of this law. I don't want to spoil anything for you. The movie is cut together like a kind of beat by beat whodunit. And why. It's like very slow rolling, but it's done. I think it's right on the edge of exploitative, in my opinion. It doesn't really cross the line, but it shows just like a tremendously painful thing that actually happened and confronts you with it. And then really had me thinking a classic Sundance virtual experience of like, I watched this at 11:30pm and I was like fucking. And then I couldn't go to bed and I couldn't fall asleep and I was thinking about it all day long. So that is the perfect neighbor. The next one is Predators. Did you ever watch the show To Catch a Predator?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know whether I watched it or whether it became like a meme in so much or not even a meme, but like a reference bit in so much other pop culture, you know, where like people would make jokes about it or like I saw your headline on to. I saw your face on To Catch a Predator or whatever. Like it became a reference point.

[Rob Harvilla]

It did, it did. This was a show that ran from 2003-22, 2007. It was a spin off from Dateline. It was a show that was sort. It was like, it was like a prank show to entrap child predators. You know, like it was it really.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, then I never watched it.

[Rob Harvilla]

It wasn't. It's not a. It's not a. It's not a prank show. It's just set up the same way where there's sort of like hidden cameras everywhere. And an actor would portray an underage girl or boy and get into online conversations with men who were like looking for a meeting and, and something much worse than that. And every episode was that every episode was hidden cameras in a home. There was a rented house, a 25 year old actor dressed to look like a 13 year old or a 15 year old. And then the host of the show, Chris Hansen, who was a journalist for dateline, would come out and confront the criminal, I guess about what it was he thought he was doing in that space. And it was tremendously awkward but sort of like weirdly gratifying because you were like, take this guy down. And it had like a big moment in.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, it's why I never actually watched this.

[Rob Harvilla]

The movie. The show in retrospect is like such an ethical quagmire. And the documentary goes into extraordinary depth into figuring out how and why. And it's just an incredibly well done documentary. Like, I don't want to say anything else about it, but really, really probing and kind of forcing you to think about why you like the things that you like and what is really the line between an online experience versus a real world experience and mental health and basically, like, what TV can do to victimize everyone involved. I loved that movie. Directed by David Osit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Rob Harvilla]

And then the third one is kind of cool that I think you'll at least appreciate it. It's called Zodiac Killer Project. It's directed by Charlie Shackleton. Really more of an essay film. So Shackleton was trying to make a regular true crime documentary about a book about the Zodiac Killer. At the last minute, the rights to the book fell through. The author decided he didn't want the book adapted. And so instead what he did is he took all of the tropes that you would find in one of these documentaries and he starts unpacking them and analyzing them. So a lot of B roll of locations, and then he just talks over it and says, and here's the part in the documentary where why would you do this? You remember in Making a Murderer, this scene happened, and it would be just like that scene. And he kind of like showcases all of these different strategies that documentarians use to get you invested in the worst thing in the world. Yeah, it's a clever movie. It's not on the par of the first two movies that I. The first two docs that I talked about, but this, like, analysis of true crime and the way that true crime is rendered on camera or on screen is a fascinating trilogy. Like, Accidental Trilogy. Maybe there were a lot of incidental or accidental pairings across the whole festival, but that one was good as well and worth watching. I'll mention a couple more.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Sorry, baby. Was there any talk of Sorry, baby when you were on the ground?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, but again, I mean, I, like, I drove to Park City, went to the movie, went to a party, went home.

[Rob Harvilla]

I thought maybe at the party there would be. Because this movie was enormous.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I was mostly talking to my friends. That's the other thing. Or your friends. I met some of your friends as well, and they were very, very nice and said nice things about you.

[Rob Harvilla]

How nice to hear.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And mostly they. I. We talked about other film festivals, so.

[Rob Harvilla]

Okay. And how they're superior or.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, there was a lot of. Not a lot of. But there was like, you know, come to Telluride. Come to Telluride because, like, as soon as I go to A film festival, like the siren song of Venice, like, reaches out to me, you know, But I, I, I don't know. It's. The logistics are hard.

[Rob Harvilla]

Everyone wants to be in Telluride except for you. It's very strange. Very strange thing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's really.

[Rob Harvilla]

I'm trying to get Griffin Newman to go this year. That's my.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think Griffin should go. I think for people who like mountains like you, go for it. Me, I like the sea and a Negroni.

[Rob Harvilla]

I'm certain that they have Negronis in Colorado. Nevertheless, we digress.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I actually asked for one in Utah and they don't there for a variety of reasons. But anyway.

[Rob Harvilla]

Ah, yeah, Utah a little more challenging.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, the very nice bartender was like, we can make, it's an open bar. We can make almost anything for you. And I was like, can you make a Negron? And they were like, ah, no.

[Rob Harvilla]

Interesting.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then everyone made fun of me.

[Rob Harvilla]

But I'm very sorry to hear that. I thought it might come up at the A24 parties because A24 did acquire this movie. Probably the least surprising thing I heard about Sundance this year was that A24 acquired this movie. Eva Victor is the writer director of this movie. It's about a woman in a small college town reflecting on a traumatic event in her life. To share anything more would be saying too much. It is, on the surface, very Sundance. It's more clever than that, than your tropey kind of a movie. Eva Victor, a comedian, I think pretty famous on TikTok, though as you mentioned, we're not on TikTok. Lucas Hedges is in this movie. He hasn't been in a movie in some time. He's back. He's also the boy prince of a 24. Naomi Acke is in this movie as her friend. Eva is the star of the movie as well as the writer and the director. I think she nailed something really impressive with the tone. I think many of the people that I was reading out of the festival liked this movie more than I did, but it's still very good and worth recommending. Okay, two quick ones. Andre is an idiot. Really good documentary about a guy who gets colon cancer and then just decides to let people follow him as he goes through the entire process of colon cancer. Sounds very upsetting. It is very upsetting at times. This guy is extremely irreverent. He's like an ad agency man too. So he, like, knows the power of visual communication.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So he's like, he's in on the bit.

[Rob Harvilla]

In on the bit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And it's Part of. Part of the thing that he's doing.

[Rob Harvilla]

This is actually also an A24 documentary, which I did not realize it won the audience award for US documentary. I think people will enjoy this. 2000 meters to Andrivka is Manoslav Chernov's follow up to 20 Days in Mariupol. This is also a film about the war between Ukraine and Russia. And it's very scary and sad. It's sort of like the, I don't know, kind of like the Black Hawk down to the children of men in 20 days in Mariupol. You know, like, it's just like. It's the war movie. It is. He's on the front lines as the Ukrainian army is attempting to liberate this like, one mile forest from Russian forces, which is considered a very strategic stronghold in this war. And so he's just with grunts in the trenches for two hours. It's a tough watch, you know, just like 20 days of Mariupol was tough, but worth watching. And then the saddest thing I saw was Omaha.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, great. We saved us to the end.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. Cole Webley is the director. Robert Machoian is the writer. He's the directed a couple of incredibly sad movies about men whose, like, lives are falling apart and the way that it affects the people around them. I would say not an Amanda movie. Although, like, it is in some ways as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I just does one need more sadness at this moment is where I am and you and I and people feel differently about that.

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, I usually love to feel beat up by a movie. You know, it's been a really hard year.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it's. It's overwhelming.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. And so it's. I think it was a lot going through the pain cave of Sundance.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

This movie, it's about a father who flees his Nevada home with his two young children early one morning to go to Nebraska. Why he goes wants to go to Nebraska is revealed throughout the movie. I think some people will be very mad at this movie because of how it makes you feel.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Rob Harvilla]

That's certainly the point. The reason I bring it up is because John Magaro, who has been my favorite actor for the last few years, is at the center of this movie. He is the most sad person in movies, as we all know, fans of past lives. He's The Star of September 5, which is a point of discussion on this episode.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Have you watched the Agency?

[Rob Harvilla]

I haven't, no.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's on the Agency and he's actually getting to be at least a little stupid. You know, it's not all deep sadness. There is even a little bit of he's making some blunders. I'm not caught up.

[Rob Harvilla]

I would welcome that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So if he dies at the end and I am lying, I'm really sorry. I haven't seen it yet.

[Rob Harvilla]

Okay. I hope he survives. Just a terrific actor and he's great in this movie, which will mix some people. Quick roundup on a couple things I did like. The Jeff Buckley documentary that Amy Berg made is awesome. I'm a huge Jeff Buckley fan. I've probably talked about him on the show before. There hasn't been a film about him. He died many, many years ago. This is as close as we're gonna get to the definitive story. I did see the Selene documentary, which I thought was pretty good. I thought it was pretty standard, but pretty good. Prime Minister, which is about the prime minister of New Zealand during the the COVID lockdown and how she took a very different tact during complicated times in our history than many of the world leaders. That's pretty good. I watched the Marlee Matlin documentary, which also is pretty good, and kind of tracked the arc of her career and her very tumultuous and ugly relationship with William Hurt. Her many performances over the years, being forced to be the only advocate for deaf actors for 30 years in Hollywood before Coda. Sly Lives, which, full disclosure, made by my friend Joseph Patel and directed by Questlove, is really good Sly Stone documentary that also attempts to kind of like, interrogate the challenges of, as the subtitle tells us, the burden of black Genius, which is also, like a big focus of Questlove's thought in the last 20 years. And that's pretty much it. Most everything else that I saw was kind of mixed on Dylan O'Brien's really good in Twinless. I didn't love Twinless, which was one of the movies that got pulled down.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh. But it also won a lot of awards.

[Rob Harvilla]

He won an acting award for it and he's great. He plays twins. Two very different twins.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. So you're on the Chris Ryan island of.

[Rob Harvilla]

He's against that. Yeah. I usually enjoy it as an adaptation. Stan, I think Guy plays twins is a funny idea for a movie. We'll see it again soon. In Sinners, we've seen Tom Hardy do it. We've seen many actors do it over the years. Pretty mixed bag at Sundance. Pretty mixed bag.

[Amanda Dobbins]

All right.

[Rob Harvilla]

Train Dreams. Will you open your heart?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which one is that again? You just listed like 45 stars. Honestly, I don't remember Anymore.

[Rob Harvilla]

That's the Joel Edgerton movie. The Netflix movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, yeah. The lager and Felicity Jones. Sure. I'm trying to have an open heart.

[Rob Harvilla]

Where are you at on Kerry Condon?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Very pro. So that's good.

[Rob Harvilla]

What about William H. Macy?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Pro. But I'm still mad about the time that my dad made me see the Cooler on a holiday and I was like, in a story. Damn it again. You know, we just, like, really had an incredible run.

[Rob Harvilla]

Sick Alec Baldwin performance in that movie, though.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Of my dad just picking depressing movies.

[Rob Harvilla]

After my own heart. Really.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

He should have been at Sundays.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess that's another part of my issue. I'm just like, well, it's Christmas and we're watching the Savages, so true story.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's not ideal. Should we pivot to nickel boys?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Not a lot of people have seen this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. So we should.

[Rob Harvilla]

This is a complicated discussion.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. We should be measured.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yes, let's be measured. Thank you. It's directed by Romel Ross. It's written by Ross and Jocelyn Barnes. It's an adaptation of the Colson Whitehead novel. It is a divergence from the Colson Whitehead novel, which I have read some of and went to after I saw the movie. It stars Ethan Hareese, Brandon Wilson, Hamish Linklater, Fred Hechinger, Daveed Diggs, Jimmy Fales, and ingenue Ellis Taylor. It's about two African American boys, Elwood and Turner, who are sent to an abusive reform School in 1960s Florida. The film is inspired by the true story of the Dozier School of Boys, which was a Florida reform school that was notorious for its abusive treatment. That's not really giving anything away because that's not really. That's the story, but not the essence of the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Rob Harvilla]

I think I came back from Telluride and was like, this is the best thing I saw at the time. When I saw it, the people who also saw it there, I could tell, were very split and divided because the movie makes some formal choices that are challenging and for some distancing, the split has basically been like, this didn't really work for me. I didn't get it. I couldn't get into it, or I thought it was boring or I've never seen a movie like this before. It was amazing. Took my breath away.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

I have not really seen much in the middle. I've not seen somebody be like, it was pretty good, you know, like, that's not really the reaction that the movie tends to elicit. So what reaction did you have?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I Don't know how I pair. Like, the exhilaration of the inventiveness. And to talk so much about form can be a little off putting, I think, until you've seen it because, you know, you start to. Or at least I'm in it. I've been start to worry about like, you know, technical supremacy and kind of like movie nerdiness. But there is something truly astonishing and revelatory about the way this movie is made and what it can. What it reveals about the way you watch a movie, the way that you tell a story, the way that you see the world and learn things. That, like, I thought was electrifying and also translates into just like a. I mean, deeply heartbreaking story. Like, this is. We were talking about sad stuff before, but I mean, you. Because this movie is so good and communicates like emotion, history, perspectives so clearly that like, that's a wallop, you know. So I was both like, oh my God, Nickel Boys. And like I rewatched it last night and was just like, well, and now I. I'm. I'm feeling it again. So a huge. I mean, it's wonderful. Like, it is definitely one of the best movies I've seen in the last year. I, you know, but I also, it. It stays with you. And that's what I mean, that's what movies should. Right. Like, it is, it's. But, you know, it's tough. It's funny. You told me, and I think you came back from Telluride and you were like, it's a tough situation. And I thought that you meant that is because of. In many ways it's using like a new or a new Ish film language. And so you like, have to focus, you know, that's part of what I mean. But, you know, the other half is that it is just. It's harrowing. It really is.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. Yeah, it's a very. It's a very upsetting story and I think it's a little bit wrote to say a necessary story. But I think the necessity of the movie is the way that it's being told. So, like, it's easy for me to get caught up in some of the wonky filmmaking choices. I asked Rommel about most of the choices that he made when he was on the show that was on the episode that ran, I think, December 20th. If you liked Nickel Boys and want to hear him talk about it, I recommend it. He's really. He's a professor and you can tell and he's really good at communicating his ideas. I obviously like Love directors who are good at communicating their ideas. But he is particularly adept. I've talked to him a few times now about the movie, and each time it adds to my appreciation of what he was trying to achieve, which is that even though I felt like the movie was distancing a little bit at first, when I first saw it, because of the kind of. The difficulty of the way that you're trained to watch movies and the way that this breaks the form of what your expectations are, the truth is that he was obviously going for the opposite, which is that a photograph is by nature distancing. But perspective, being inside of your own head, through your own eyes, is not distancing. You feel close to something. The way I feel right now, between us, I can almost touch you. When you're watching something on a screen, you can't do that. Or when you're looking at a still photograph, you can't do that. And so he's trying to break the barrier, I suppose, of experience by showing us as close as he can get and the filmmakers can get to what it was like to inhabit this world, if not these people and the movie. Does it like it does it. It takes a minute to turn the switch on. When I sat down to watch it, by the way, I didn't know anything. Like, I didn't know that they were doing it this way. Like, there was no.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right, right, right, right. And so there is that moment.

[Rob Harvilla]

What is going on here?

[Amanda Dobbins]

And even if. Even if you do know, okay, it's like a different, you know, it's first person point of view, or, you know, our brains especially are just wired to watch movies a certain way to look at images a certain way to learn information, like, in a certain way. We're trained to, like, expect not just like plot development, but, like, the accretion of detail in a certain way. And so your brain, like, that first 20 minutes, your brain is like, definitely reworking. And it is sort of intellectual at first, right? Like, you're sitting there and you're thinking, oh, okay, you're doing this instead. And you at, like, this is how you're showing me this. And I'm supposed to know this. I thought that it was done so, so deftly and also still with such, like, artistic choice that to me, it was like, really revelatory in thinking about. I didn't mind that. I was thinking about, like, camera decision, not camera decisions or, you know, framing or all those sorts of things. Like, that was really adamant.

[Rob Harvilla]

Why are you showing me this in this way?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And I Also, you know, as an adaptation, because this is an adaptation of a novel that was also really exciting because as someone who loves to read novels, a lot of movies don't really. You lose a lot in perspective shift. You lose a lot in suggestion and just the way you make a movie versus the way that you write a novel. So it was interesting and exciting to be thinking about, like, oh, so this is what you are communicating in this way. And this is kind of like. Like, if you're writing an. So I thought all of that was cool, but you're definitely, like, focusing on that for a little while until you get into the rhythm of the film. And the film is also structured in a way where it is really like, okay, for 20 to 30 minutes, we are going to really ground you in this visual decision that we're making. And you're going to learn the language. And you are like, maybe so focused on learning the language that you don't realize the emotions are seeping in. And then it makes. I mean, I don't really want to spoil it because so many people haven't seen it, but there is a decision. There's a moment in the movie that's unlike anything that you've seen in some times.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, I think we can talk about a couple of them if we want to put a little bit of casing around it before we get to that. This was sort of related to some of the things we talked about with the Brutalist, which is that, to me, it's very, very important to celebrate a movie like this that wants to break convention to do something a little bit different. This movie is a lot different. Yeah. And I'm kind of astonished that it got nominated for Best Picture because of how different it is now. You could make the case, you know, it's produced by Plan B. Plan B is like the reigning champion of production companies that get nominated for Best Picture. And they often make movies that protect artists who have strong visions. Like, that's a thing that they're very, very well known for. And especially dede Garner and Jeremy Kleiner, the executives who run that company, like, they have a very very. They build like a force field around creative people still. This movie does a lot of things in addition to the first person perspective. It uses archival imagery and what appear to be kind of like found documents that are created documents and musical. And especially in the sound design choices that are unconventional is too soft a word to describe how it's. You know, it's a lot closer to kind of like outsider art than it is or what you might find in a museum.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I wrote fine art down. Yeah. Yes. But I think it knows when you do need a little bit of emotionality. It knows when you need a little bit of performance. Of performance in the sense of you need human characters. Like you need a little movie.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yes. There's like, you get Anjanu, Ellis Taylor, the emotion machine of the movie. Right. Whenever she's on screen, you feel deeply. When Hamish Linklater's on the screen, you're furious, you're mad. There are definitely choices that are typical of movie stuff, but many, many more that are not that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Rob Harvilla]

And then there are like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But it's just so finely calibrated that it does know when to give you that hit of. Okay, so there's a thing where I know I'm supposed to feel right now, so I can reorient myself around that and take the rest of the information in.

[Rob Harvilla]

There's one other thing that it does where maybe we can start. We'll just do like five minutes of spoilers. So if you do not want to hear anything, spoiler warning. This isn't your typical plot spoiler. It's actually formal spoiler in terms of the way that the movie was made. But it contributes significantly to the telling of the story, which is that about 35 minutes through once the Elwood character has arrived at the school, we see his experience through, you know, the first day or so, and he's having a conversation with a classmate in the cafeteria. And then we get pulled out of that experience and the camera essentially flips perspectives and we go inside of his friend Turner's eyes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Rob Harvilla]

And then the movie toggles back and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Forth between Elwood and so the first thing is that you see this character who's head you've been living in for 35 minutes for the first time. And at there is just something like. Jubilant isn't the right word. But you're just like, oh, like, there he is. It's this person that you have been like, thinking about. And so, I mean, you know, it's almost like meeting your kid for the first time, sort of. You're just kind of like, oh, this is. I didn't have a visual on this. It's a really, really memorable, remarkable feeling. And then. And then because you're toggling between the two of them, you know, it formally creates something almost akin to like third person traditional filmmaking. So they, like, you do get a conversation or two between them. You get that little thread of what I think of, like what we're looking for in terms of just how to watch a movie. Um, but you also then get Turner's perspective, which, like, you know, is emotionally and slightly different than Elwood's. And he sees the world in a different way. He sees Angenelles as Taylor in a different way. And so it's like a compare and contrast as well, that it's just cool. Like, it's just. I mean, I can't believe they pulled it off.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. It's pretty stunning. And then I think I won't explain how. But that choice that is made wends amazingly with the telling of the story in the second half and becomes such a coherent choice. Like when the movie flipped.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

And the first time I was watching it, and then we start going back and forth between Elwood and Turner.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Rob Harvilla]

I thought this is a. A surprising and interesting choice. I'm not sure justification is a strong word, but sort of like what the purpose was other than to kind of like before sunset it. You know, or it's like he thinks this way and he thinks this way and they can go back and forth. And then there is a. There's a fusion of that choice that is. That really pays off.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. Not that I would never presume to give this a note, but I will just say from my experience the first time, it pays off in one way. There's. And we've put the spoiler things on it, but there is sort of like a. We're jumping times here. And so there's a framing device. I don't know that I, like, got all the information I needed to the first time with the framing device or I wasn't paying close enough attention. Well, do you know what I mean?

[Rob Harvilla]

I mean, I think it's meant to be more of a reveal near to the end. Did you get the reveal or. Not quite.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Not quite. That's what I'm saying. Like, I understood basically what happened, but then I was a little confused about then what I was seeing. And then I had to go and look it up online. And so then I watched it a second time and I was like, oh, okay. So this was quick, you know, like. Yes, in some ways. It also.

[Rob Harvilla]

There's some giveaways in the sort of like, sure Daveed Diggs being cast, for example.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Rob Harvilla]

Is kind of a giveaway in terms of what they're doing. Yes. Which I think some people complained about when I was at Telluride. They were like, this kind of ruined where this was going for me because I know that voice. Whereas when you're in the film, the two young actors, we really don't. They haven't been in a lot. We don't have a big relationship with them. And so it gives you this, like, you know, I should say Rommel was a documentarian. He was nominated for an Oscar for Hale county. This morning, this evening, the movie. The first half of the movie, kind of. Until, like Hamish Linklater and Fred Heckinger show up. I was like, this is. This is just documentary filmmaking with like, Angenue Ellis Taylor in a. In a kitchen. And the same way that that. The same way that Hale county felt like a guy who was hooked on Malik, decided to make a doc. And this is such. I mean, this is. The Tree of Life is such an important movie to this movie. It's incredible. Like, if you haven't seen the Tree of Life recently, rewatch. Especially my favorite parts of that movie, which are the scenes in Texas when he's a young boy and the way that Malik shoots perspective and the way that Ross shoots perspective. They are. I know I always use this phrase, but they are talking to each other. It is a communication bridge. The things that more or less the Daveed Diggs stuff is what I struggled with, which was sort of the revelation of the history of the experience that was had. I didn't think worked as well. However, I thought the single best scene in the movie was the bar scene, which just features like an incredible performance from Craig Tate as one of the kids.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[Rob Harvilla]

Who he stumbles into. And they have a long conversation in which they talk around their experience and kind of like it just shows you it's just a very brief period of time, but evidence of what happened to these kids who made it through this school. So I didn't love some of the modern day stuff.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Same.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. But I do think that there's a necessity to that part of the story that I thought had value. Again, it's one of the reasons why I'm like, you know, I know you're ragging on me for being like, it's four and a half out of five or whatever, but I'm like, these are. There are things in the plotting where I felt what I could feel with him was like, this is an unseasoned narrative filmmaker making a lot of bold moves and not all of them are going to work. But aside from that, everything that happens in Florida is tremendously effective. The decision not to portray certain things when the camera looks away, when it looks at something the way that a person would. Yeah, that stuff is so sophisticated and so interesting. I really, really like this movie a lot.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's wonderful. I mean, I hope more people get a chance to see it. I hope that you aren't listening. I mean, maybe people have skipped at this point. You know, I hope we didn't spoil it for people who haven't yet had the chance to see it.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But, you know, this is a movie podcast. You know, we gotta talk about our movies. Just got nominated for Best Picture. Get out there, folks.

[Rob Harvilla]

I know that's this curious thing about this time in movie history is a movie like this is. I don't think it's coming to streaming for, like, another month or something, which is just odd. I don't know. It was originally gonna come out in October, and then they pushed it to December, and then it came out in five cities, and then they pulled it, and now you can't really watch it. We're lucky that we got to watch it the way that we did. People should check it out and listen to not just my conversation with Rommel, but I would go hunt down some of his interviews because he's a great talker for the movie. Okay. I don't know if we could pivot any harder, but it's like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's for, like, an emotionally sort of downer episode.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So we started high.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yep.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Opus. Then just.

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, we started with you acquiring the password to the email account.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, sure. That's right.

[Rob Harvilla]

That's right. That was the highest one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Not provided it yet.

[Rob Harvilla]

We're still waiting here, Bonnie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm just watching.

[Rob Harvilla]

Is it useful if I text it to you right now? Just say it on the pod.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, another of my friends texted me about the guy from the Idea of youf, and so I. And I had time to respond to that. So I can. I can do a lot. We can have it all on this podcast.

[Rob Harvilla]

Nicholas Galitzon.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I think she enjoyed the performance, not me. So password? Opus. Positive, then Bummer town. Sundance.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yep.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Artistically tremendous but emotionally grueling film in nickel boys. And now we're going back up.

[Rob Harvilla]

We're going back up to Goodrich, which I did tell you I watched over the holidays with low expectations.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Rob Harvilla]

I can't say I'm a fan of Home Again.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I had a great time at the premiere, but, yeah, wonderful house.

[Rob Harvilla]

Sure. That will come up again. I'm certain. And you know what? Maybe this is my bias showing, but the perspective of the movie obviously flatters some of my personal interests and experiences in life. But this movie, which is about an Art dealer in his 60s. Sure. Whose wife leaves him all of a sudden to check herself into rehab and leaves him with two nine year old twins. And he has no idea what to do. He's obviously an older dad who is not the primary caretaker of his children. He also has an adult daughter who's going through some things of her own. She's also pregnant. And it's just a. It's your classic James L. Brooks family kind of coming apart, but they need each other dramedy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And they say emotional things to each other in, you know, recognizable slice of life set pieces.

[Rob Harvilla]

Correct.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the things that we don't normally get to say to each other are said. What is it that you need to say right now?

[Rob Harvilla]

Articulate the things you need to say.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Pretty explicitly, you know?

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. So your boy Michael Keaton is the star of this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I think he's everybody's boy. This is unbelievable.

[Rob Harvilla]

I did. If you're gonna read text messages, you should also read the text message I sent you about Studio Ghibli over the weekend.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, right. That you. Okay, hold on. Oh, Bobby did just send me the password. Okay, thank you, Bob. Noted. Okay, here we go. Alice has been on a studio Ghibli kick this week. We know that because you got angry texts from Eileen being like, where are the Studio Ghibli Blu Rays?

[Rob Harvilla]

I can't say that on the pod.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know. But that was freaking funny as an all time.

[Rob Harvilla]

That was like five minutes before we started recording. She was like, I need to know where Princess Mononoke is asap.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Rob Harvilla]

That's an intense one for Alice to be. We didn't. She didn't watch it. It's way too grown up for her.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I realized if Knox needed needs an introduction, it's this one. And then you accidentally send me the link to Greta Gerwig's Uber Eats ad. And then you sent me a link to Porco Rosso and you described it as Michael keaton as a 1930s pig pilot. Which, honestly, if Knox does need an introduction, that is what we would start with. Instead, I showed him Mamma Mia last night.

[Rob Harvilla]

He's like an Errol Flynn, Humphrey Bogart style character.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

He's like a devil may care hero.

[Amanda Dobbins]

At some point. At some point, we will. Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Okay. I'm just putting it out there. Knox I know would be like, this is crack. Like, I need this. Anyhow, Amanda, I actually think you would like Porgo Rosso. I think that'd be a good one for You. It's good, right? It is. It's very good. It's, like, not really striving to be high art, either. It knows that it's being silly the whole time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

All right, I'll check it out.

[Rob Harvilla]

Michael Keaton is terrific in this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's unreal. And it was. It made me think a lot about our Michael Keaton hall of the fame. And he gets handed a lot of these regular. And he's not a regular guy. Here's. He's, like a really rich, successful art dealer, but he turns it into someone you just want to be around. I think if there's a problem in this movie, it's that he makes the character too likable.

[Rob Harvilla]

I agree.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm just like, everything he's doing seems fine.

[Rob Harvilla]

He's supposed to be more flawed than he feels like, but he's Michael Keaton.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And he's just like, he's doing good. You know, It's.

[Rob Harvilla]

The trick of the movie is, is that it wouldn't work without Michael Keaton, but Michael Keaton is kind of upsetting the narrative structure because of his natural charm. Right. Mila Kunis plays his daughter in the movie. Stacked cast in this movie, Carmen Nzogo plays the daughter of an artist whose estate Keaton's character is pursuing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Don't spoil who the wife is.

[Rob Harvilla]

I won't. I enjoyed that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Because. Great. I don't want to spoil the movie, but great.

[Rob Harvilla]

A late reveal.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Great. Cold open to this movie. Very funny.

[Rob Harvilla]

And then I couldn't clock it when I was.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Nor could I. And then she shows up and I almost. I gasped.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. Well, there are multiple wives revealed in this movie that we don't know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, that's true. Also. Don't spoil that one.

[Rob Harvilla]

A couple of good ones. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't. It has a lot of the trappings of great Nancy Myers films. Of course. Like, the production design in this movie is excellent. For me, it's even more satisfying because I'm like, if I was a rich art dealer, this is the kind of house I would have. And I lived in California, you know, Los Angeles, and incredible house.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Architectural Digest will not let me sign into my subscription in order to let you know where the house actually is.

[Rob Harvilla]

I'd like to know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I would as well. And there was a piece on it, but incredible production design and costume design throughout. Like, everything just looks so good and cool.

[Rob Harvilla]

Could you imagine having twins in your 60s?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Rob Harvilla]

That's a bit of a horror movie in that respect.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, they're nine now. And he's supposed to 64. I mean, well, I think Keaton is in his 70s IRL. So shout out to him. But. So you're supposed to have twins and listen, I can't imagine having twins, you know, so.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. How old was my dad when he had my sister? He was in his early 50s, maybe 50. That's fucking. That's hard.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

I'm 42 and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. Everything's breaking down. No, it's true, but. And, you know, another argument of the movie that Michael Keaton doesn't really uphold is that he's not been a present dad up until this point.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So maybe it wasn't his problem.

[Rob Harvilla]

What did you think about the big emotional conversation near the end with Mila.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Kunis, the one outside the hospital?

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, did it work for you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I have to say, in general, I think that Mila Kunis is one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen. And her pregnancy styling was a.

[Rob Harvilla]

You know, I needed a little bit of a better actress.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly. Yeah. Even. Even.

[Rob Harvilla]

Cause it's good writing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is. It is good writing, and it did. Halle Meyer Shire is the daughter of two very successful directors. Charles Schreier passed away at the end of last year, which is, you know, very sad in any context, but absolutely in the context of this movie. And when the. The mom character shows up and was, you know, I was like, oh, and this is the Nancy part of it, too. So this is fascinating.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yes. Love that part of it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it is good writing. And again, it is like, that would never happen in real life. You know, those people would never air those grievances. But the grievances are aired in a night way, in a nice way. I did have a couple notes on the performance. I would extend that to what I think is the best scene in the movie, which is the scene. So Mila Kunis character, it will surprise. Literally, no one to learn, does go into labor. And, you know, her dad, Michael Keaton, has to be there for her. And then the husband shows up and gives a great speech. It's a really, really, really good speech.

[Rob Harvilla]

And that character is framed as this sort of like the antithesis of Keaton's character, where he's, like, a little bit more beta. He's more of a sensitive caretaker type. And, you know, he's really there for her and, you know, career second and family first. And all these things that Keaton's character views as a little modern and silly and, I don't know, soft, I guess. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But so. And so the. The baby's heart rate is going down, I think. And so Mila Kunis is like. I mean, this is one thing. She does have an epidural. I. You know, we're just. We're gonna get into some nitty gritty here. Okay, sure. I. I think she. They say yes to the epidural, so she could, like, be lying there fairly placidly. I got an epidural, and then I did take a nap because I needed it because I hadn't slept in 24 hours. But he gives this whole, amazing, like, really well written speech. And they're cutting to Keaton, who is just, like, having all the feelings and losing it. And then Mila Kunis is just, like, lying there on the pillow, just, like, placid, like, absolutely no reaction, just, like, smiling beatifically. And I was like, a, you're in labor, even with an epidural, and B, like, some emotional stuff is happening. Maybe we could react, like, a little bit. And that doesn't really happen, but I don't care. It was good.

[Rob Harvilla]

This movie is available on Max right now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

And one thing that it had me thinking about after I saw it was I felt like I said, north of 10 times, this is a movie like they used to make in 2024. And I don't know if that. I kept saying that, which I think is a generally good thing, which is, I think, actually part of the reason why last year was not a great movie year, but was good in my mind, because there were just a lot of, like, sixes and sevens. There were not a lot of, like, twos and threes, in my opinion, last year. And I think that part of it was because the studios were, like, quieted for a period of time. So there was, like, less IP crap. There was less, like, less reaching for a billion dollars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

And so a lot more stuff, like, seeped through the cracks. This movie was released by Ketchup Entertainment. Sure. And so I just really, you know, I don't love these movies as much as you do, but I do really like movies like this family.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Dramedies that are good with a stacked cast, even if we have some notes and, like, good writing, even if it's a little obvious at times. Like, obvious? Obvious is good. Like, you and I were raised on obvious studio movies of the 90s.

[Rob Harvilla]

You know, there is a very strong place for them.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly.

[Rob Harvilla]

Also, just put Anne Hathaway in the Mila Kunispark. Tell me how much better this movie is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's definitely better, but, like, I think she would probably, like, Go a little too hard with the labor scene and the crying, you know, And I just.

[Rob Harvilla]

Go for it anyway.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's like somewhere in the middle also, by the way, a C section in that situation is okay. It happened to me. We don't need to talk someone out of a C section.

[Rob Harvilla]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Two healthy kids.

[Rob Harvilla]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I just. I don't want people to feel bad. You know, it was set up as, like, some sort of disaster, and it's okay. I think Anne Hathaway would be a lot. I don't know if she also meets Michael Keaton's energy where I think there would be fireworks.

[Rob Harvilla]

I think there would be electrifying.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That would be fine with me.

[Rob Harvilla]

Michael Keaton. So he had Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice last year. Did he hit something else, too?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Didn't his movie Knox Goes Away come out?

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, Knox Goes Away. The legendary Knox Goes Away. That wasn't ideal, but he's back. He was great in Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice, too.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. He's a wonderful actor. I'm a big fan.

[Rob Harvilla]

I'm happy for you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Great sweaters. Great everything in this. Up in. In this nice gallery space.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. Early 60s style.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. I got to get into that. I got to start thinking about that now that I'm, like, out of having a baby. I'm like, maybe I should start buying clothes again.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Because you just don't need to buy any clothes when you just have a baby who's just like, here's avocado all over your shirt.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I mean, the amount of stuff that that was on my shirt yesterday at the end of the day at 7pm that was tough.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. You're in the thick of it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Anything you want to say about September 5th? Really quick.

[Amanda Dobbins]

A great procedural.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. I think this movie slipped into a little bit of discourse wars, and there's obviously a reason for that because of the events that are portrayed in the movie. I saw the movie very clearly as people obsessed with people doing things. There's like, a Sorkinian quality to this. There's like a David Fincher quality to this. When I talked to Steven Soderbergh on the show, he was like, this is. I love this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I had no notes, which is great conversation. Thank you to Steven for saying my first name.

[Rob Harvilla]

Also, did you cut that out and, like, put it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I didn't. I had a nice moment. But, like, this is definitely like a. Like a Soderbergh movie too. Right. I'm just like, we gotta get. We gotta do it. Like, it's all about action. Yes. And then considering the effects of the action later.

[Rob Harvilla]

So yes, and there are some damaging effects. I thought that the movie did a pretty good job of showing that cavalier action. This is not a movie about perfection and execution. It's a movie about people who are ill equipped, trying their best, and at times failing to do the right thing. So I thought pretty nifty movie. I did compare it on letterboxd to an HBO original movie which people think is meant to be a dig and is not a dig. There was a time in the 90s when every Saturday night there would be a new or maybe it was Friday nights. I can't remember when the original movie aired. I think maybe it was Friday nights where like, it would be like ving Rhames is Don King? Just two hours of Ving Rhames doing Don King and it was tremendously entertaining. It didn't quite feel like going to the movies, but it was good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

And this movie is the same. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with Tim Felbaum, the director of September 5th. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. During tax season, your personal info travels to a lot of places. Between payroll, your tax consultant and the IRS. If your W2 gets exposed, that's just.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The ticket for identity thieves.

[Rob Harvilla]

That's why Lifelock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Don't let identity thieves take you for a ride. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Um, I think I just won my taxes. Yeah, I just switched to H and R Block in about one minute. All I had to do was drag.

[Rob Harvilla]

And drop last year's return into H.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And R Block and bam. My information is automatically there so I don't have to go digging around for.

[Rob Harvilla]

All my old papers to switch. Nope.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game.

[Rob Harvilla]

Switching to H and R Block is easy. Just drag and drop your last return.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's better with Block.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's time to rewrite the vacation rules with Royal Caribbean.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Your family can look forward to just about anything.

[Rob Harvilla]

Break the thrill barrier, roaring down the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Tallest water slide in North America.

[Rob Harvilla]

Jump into breathtaking jungles and jaw dropping coves.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Vibe off the charts on our private island.

[Rob Harvilla]

Perfect day at Coco Cay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And end the day knowing things are just getting started. Because this isn't just any vacation. This is all the vacations. Come seek the Royal Caribbean Ships Registry Bahamas.

[Rob Harvilla]

Very excited to have Tim Felbaum here. We're here to talk about September 5th. Tim, I'm curious where this movie came from for you. Were you even alive when the events that took place in the movie happened?

[Tim Felbaum]

Sean, look at me.

[Rob Harvilla]

You look like a beautiful young man.

[Tim Felbaum]

No, I'm kidding. No, I wasn't alive. Yeah, I was born 10 years after. So no, jokes aside. Yes, I first learned about what happened on that day in Munich from a documentary that I saw as a teenager in the theaters. I don't know, maybe you've seen it. It's called One Day in September by Kevin McD. And this on many levels had a huge impact on me. And in addition to that, I studied in Munich. I went to film school in Munich. I was born and raised in Switzerland. But after that, I went to film school in Munich. And in Munich, even after all these years, the story still feels quite present. It's like the buildings where it happened are today student housings. And we would always. It's a very special architect that the Olympic Village has. And there were many student films that we would shoot there. And you would always know, like, this is the apartment where this tragedy happened. This is the balcony where that image has been taken, that image that everybody knows of the masked person stepping out on a balcony. And I was always interested in that story and especially in that image. So after my two previous movies, we started to do research on that day. And what we then, in that process learned more and more is what an important role the media played. And as we got deeper into that field or into that direction of the research, we were lucky enough to find an eyewitness. That is Jeffrey Mason. That is the character played in the movie by John Magaro. And he was there in this control room during this 22 hour marathon of broadcasting when this group of sports journalists. Right, that's a special thing. They were a few hours before they were reporting on. On the Olympics, on actually US Swim star Mark Spitz swimming to his seventh gold medal. And a few days hours later, they had to make the switch to. To reporting on a crisis. And yeah, that was the initial spark for us to tell the story, that conversation, to tell the story entirely from that perspective.

[Rob Harvilla]

How did you stumble upon Jeff Mason, you know, and make your way to him? And did that actually. Did he become the POV character because of your access to him?

[Tim Felbaum]

I would say yes. I mean, I have to add, though, that he's also a combination of certain roles that in reality. And he also, for him, it's really important that we mentioned that because he wants to be respectful of his colleagues, that in real life these were several people doing that job. Of course, we took there an artistic license to combine certain characters. But, I mean, he was essential in the project in many ways. Basically, the script is based a lot on his memories of what they experienced in a control room and that they. He helped us to be authentic with the dialogue. And he was also crucial when we then finally could approach or get the copyrights for the archival footage, which was not easy, but was for us was essential that we could actually use some real footage.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, I do want to ask you about the blending and where you chose to recreate versus where you chose to use archival. But maybe before that you can talk a little bit about how you thought about shooting and pacing the film. You know, there's, you know, it's a very short period of time that you're capturing, but it's not all in real time the entire film. So how did you think about structuring it then?

[Tim Felbaum]

The movie would be 22 hours long. I like a good 90 minutes movie, but yeah, it's a good question. It's like I would say again, I would go back to that conversation that we had with Jeffrey Mason. And when we asked him how this day felt for him, he said it was just a constant adrenaline rush and they were cons. All the decisions they made were against the ticking clock. And I don't know if you ever visited these live television studios. I. I've been in. In when doing research, I went to a lot of sports broadcast rooms, control rooms, and everything is clocked to the minute. So you can only imagine what it means when they do suddenly reported a tragedy like this. So to me, that or to us, that was clear. Okay. This is also how the movie should feel. And you are in that rush and the reflection only comes afterwards. And then. So that is already, in a way, the basic structure of the script is already there. But then also when you shoot it, we had the same approach. We wanted to. Basically we had this idea of just covering Marcus further, the DP and I of just covering it as if we ourselves would be a broadcast crew in that room observing these people, observing that situation on the monitors we just shot. And very much in documentary style also. And that this is a nice thing because then you have these moments that feel authentic or real. But on the other hand, you create a lot of lot of footage. And this is where editing comes into play or is like a really important part then on shaping the movie. I think the editor, Hansjerk Weisbrich has an enormous. It had an enormous influence on the whole rhythm and everything. But ironically, it was more about. It was tougher to find the quiet moments where for a moment the emotions kick in or so than to find the tense moment because the tension was there all the time.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, I love the balance between the conversations that can be had in the control room and the conversations that need to be had in the hallway too. And that this was not a space that was designed to cover this kind of coverage of an event. Right, yeah, absolutely.

[Tim Felbaum]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Can you talk about why you felt the story resonated now and why you thought it was important to do it some 50 plus years later?

[Tim Felbaum]

Oh, yeah. Again, to me, I mean, there's so many aspects of that day that are relevant, especially also for today. One, of course, is the ongoing crisis that is tragically not solved yet between Israel and Palestine. But our movie is about the media perspective. And this also seems to be a very, especially from today's point of view, a very relevant question. I mean, today everybody here has a camera and a TV in their pocket and we are surrounded by a rapidly, fast, like a rapidly evolving media landscape. I myself know that sometimes I'm overwhelmed, like where to get my information from. And we thought that especially for today's audience, it would be interesting to take a step back and see on how a little bit more than 50 years ago an event of this nature was covered for the first time in live television. And it is in a way about this moment that the media changed. I want to add one thing, maybe that even before this tragedy happened, it might be interesting to know this. Olympics 72 in Munich have been an absolute turning point in media history because it was the first Olympics on German soil since 36, which was misused for fascist propaganda. And now Germany wanted to send out a new image out to the world. The image of the liberal Germany. That's also why they didn't want to have any armed police in the village, which we now know was a mistake. And for sending out that image they have set up an never before seen technical apparatus. It was also the first Olympics that could be broadcast live globally via satellite. And they had everything was set up for optimal TV coverage, the venues. They had this Olympic camera on the Olympic tower that they could have access to. And then suddenly that whole apparatus switched from reporting on the, as the Germans called it, the Serene Games. They wanted to almost have a Woodstock hippie esque vibe to it. And then this whole media apparatus had to, or made the switch to report on this crisis.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's fascinating. I'm curious about your decision to make a movie like this too because it feels very different from the previous films that you've made and a docudrama like this and I wasn't familiar with your work before I saw the movie and so I'm curious how you came to something like this.

[Tim Felbaum]

Yeah, yeah. So very much see where that question is coming from. My two previous movies were in a way in a sci fi area or post apocalyptic films. I want to add though that I had a similar approach already. I mean, maybe you haven't seen them. September 5th is what I would say is the best one so far.

[Rob Harvilla]

I can say no, I took a look at Tides because I had. But I had hadn't seen it before until after.

[Tim Felbaum]

Yeah, but you should maybe check out the first one. The first one is about like now 13 years ago and is. Is about climate change a long time before it was an everyday topic in newspaper. And in both of these films had. Even though they have all these futuristic scenarios, they also had the same approach to how to shoot them in this documentary style. I said I want to have an almost European art house feeling to a genre movie. So there are many similarities. But of course when approaching a story of this historic relevance, I mean when you do science fiction, you also do research a lot, right. But when you do something that is so important and people really lost their lives and you do much more research before you even start to write a single bit. And that's what I also. I mean, enjoyed might be the wrong word in that sad context, but the whole research process, that was really something that I found very interesting. And especially then as we got deeper and deeper into that perspective, that was to me, that's something that I learned from making this film in a way that the more specific you are with your perspective, the more you can also. I don't know, I also hope that in a way the audience also when watching the movie that you learn something about making television back in that analog world and that hopefully you find that fascinating.

[Rob Harvilla]

I absolutely did. One thing that was interesting to me too as a viewer was Peter Jennings is a staple of my childhood. He is the newscaster who was on in my home. How old are you? I'm in my 40s, but he was just on hosting World News Tonight every day in my house for many, many years. And so he's just a very familiar figure. But so you have this, this interesting choice you've made where you've got some well known real World people who you are casting as actors. And then you have the, you know, McKay style figures who you're only using archivals. Maybe you can talk about that balancing that as well.

[Tim Felbaum]

Of course, I would love to talk about this. First of all, Peter Jennings. Yeah, it's like Peter Jennings also did live coverage of, as you know, I see you nodding of 9, 11 for I think 48 hours or so he was in the studio. And there's an interview that I saw with him once when he was asked how he could go through this and he just said, well, very simple answer. I've been in Munich 72. That has been in a way, his training day. And in a way it's a good question. Your question about like, because Peter Jennings in our movie is being recreated with an actor. Right. While Jim McKay isn't. And there's a reason for that because in a way our movie is about the movie, a movie about the people behind the camera. But Peter Jennings has a very special role in that team because Peter Jennings was the only moderator coming from ABC News. He was invited by Roon Eilish. He said, come to Munich. He was the Middle east expert for ABC News. And he was invited by Runawlich, hey, come to Munich. Take a vacation from your Middle east job and do some pieces for us. So he did these pieces, for example, on Dachau, the concentration camp, as we show it in our movie. And then suddenly, as he says it also in the movie, ironically, he ends up being more close to the conflict than ever before in his career in his function as the Middle east expert. And then also since the special thing about the movie is that it is a sports crew that has to make this switch, you know, they weren't experienced or trained in reporting and situation like this. So the one person that is coming from news and is warning them maybe about, for example, the use of certain words or something as we show it in the film should be a character in the movie. While Jim McKay is of course the face of that whole broadcast. And to us, while we recreated, and we actually did recreate a lot of the archival footage, I hope it's seamless and you don't see it. But we, for example, didn't want to show any, out of respect, want to show anyone who really lost their life on that day. And we shot a lot of these scenes. But what I really figured, what we could never recreate is the human element of Tim McKay's performance. There's just a very unique way of how we talked into the camera and so I said like this, we absolutely have to get the right and have to be able to use.

[Rob Harvilla]

It works really effectively. And I'm curious to hear you talk about John Magaro. Like I've said, John, I've said that John Magaro is my favorite working actor like a couple times in the show in the past. He's somebody that like he kind of improves every movie.

[Tim Felbaum]

So I'll tell him that I see him.

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, I was delighted to see him at the center of your movie. You know, he really is the engine of it, especially in the second half. But you know, you haven't made a lot of. You haven't made any American productions or you know, American stories or, you know, how did you go about casting this and how did you end up with this, especially the quartet of actors who are at the center of the movie?

[Tim Felbaum]

Yes, that's a very good question because I mean, for European productions sometimes it's maybe not easy to get a U.S. cast. But for me, of course it was crucial that it is in a way, even though this story takes place in Germany, it is also an American story. It is told from an American point of view. And yeah, I would say like in Germany, I'm established enough name so that I can call an actress of the level of Leonie Benesch. And she's interested in having a conversation so internationally, maybe not so much. And we had also a hard time to approach the cast. And then we were lucky enough that what made the change here is that Sean Penn, John Wildermuth and John Palmer came on board with their company Projected pictureworks as partners. They were actually really early on in the process involved and were essential collaborators on everything on already on the script stage. And but what they in addition to that also helped with casting like you can imagine. Maybe as when you can write an email with a film produced by Sean Penn, it helps to get you an answer faster because he's very well respected name, especially in the actor.

[Rob Harvilla]

Were there any other POV characters that you thought about? Including, you know, you mentioned that you compressed some into the Jeff character. How did you think about having too many voices in those conversations to effectively tell it?

[Tim Felbaum]

That's an interesting question. Yeah, we had some. I can give you an example. So Sean McManus, who is the son of Tim McKay, who I was lucky enough to meet at one of these control rooms and who also was kind enough to share his memories of these Olympics because he was there as a teenager while his father was hosting the cameras. And at a certain point we also made him as a character. Him, the teenager whose father is more in the studio. And just as much as I would have loved the movie to also be Sean McMahon is a part of. Felt too private in a way. You know, this is a movie about their people in their working environment. And so it didn't feel appropriate to the biggest subject in a way. So that's why we then, as you say, so that we stay focused on the major subject and on not too many characters. We decided to not go further with this character. But he saw the movie recently for the first time in New York, and he was really proud. He saw it with Wiss son and that was really touching because after screening, he turned to his son and said, wow, your grandfather like Jim McKay. And that was quite a moment.

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, that's fascinating too, because he has had. He had such an esteemed career at CBS and working in news and in sports and, you know, his.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Absolutely.

[Rob Harvilla]

They have a lineage there.

[Tim Felbaum]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm impressed by how much, you know, but it's like he actually is the only person like Rue Knowledge was the first person to be that the head of a news and a sports organization. News organization. And Runawich writes in his biography, he would have never gotten that other job if his training day was also Munich, where he proved for ABC that he could handle news.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, the company where I work, we cover film and television, but we also cover sports. And so somebody like Rune is like a legendary figure and somebody that we know a lot about. And you know, that the closeness of sports and news and the fact that even though the teams weren't prepared to do that work and actually, you know, I like how you show how they make mistakes, like meaningful reporting mistakes during the telling of the story. But that, you know, that that is something that happens in the process of reporting sometimes.

[Tim Felbaum]

Oh, all the time. And again, I'm getting back to also, they. This was an unprecedented situation. They didn't expect that. But in addition to that, I want to say that a lot of people that work in today's news business, live television, have seen the movie now, and they came up to me after the screening and said to me that was so astonishing for them to see that while obviously technology is completely different, everything is faster. There's even more that you have to deal with in a way. But the bigger questions are exactly the same today. What they're discussing, like, what can we show?

[Rob Harvilla]

What.

[Tim Felbaum]

What can't we show? How many confirmed sources do we need to have before we send something Out. Yeah. Do we show violence? Like all these questions. That's still the same discussions today.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's really powerful. One thing I'm sure you feel very comfortable with, but I'm curious to hear you talk about, is creating a sense of authenticity of Germany at this time and maybe what Germany was like and the intersection between these American visitors who are making TV and the people of the country and even just the atmosphere of the country at that time.

[Tim Felbaum]

No, that's a very important aspect of the movie. I mean, one we just talked about that Germany wanted to have this image change of being the new liberal Germany. So it was really an important event, these Olympics. It was Germany's makeover, so to. To say. And of course, for us, it was essential that we have this in a movie because, yeah, it's just so such an important part of the premise when this story takes place. Also that it's so close to World War II. But then we knew, okay, our film only takes place inside that studio. How do we get that part of the story into our setting, so to say? And that is the character of Leonie Benish, Marianne Gebhardt. So she represents this new generation that tries to free themselves for the past, from the past. And she's. Yeah, she's the. Her character represents that whole aspect of the story.

[Rob Harvilla]

Congratulations on your Golden Globe nomination. Is this very strange for you? You're now thrust into an awards race. You have a big American film. It's getting release in lots of theaters. Tell me about how you're feeling.

[Tim Felbaum]

Oh, it's overwhelming. Yeah. In a very positive way, I gotta say. Like, I mean, I told you a little bit on how we started this movie. We would have never thought that this journey that we would make one time. And yesterday morning, that was really special. We were here with my dear producer, Thomas Wapganf. Tom Parma and the other producers were in the Zoom. And, yeah, we couldn't believe it when we heard it. And it was really special.

[Rob Harvilla]

What do you think this means for your career? Like, what do you. Do you know what you're gonna do next?

[Tim Felbaum]

No, I don't know. I think. I mean, I have certain ideas. Well, I think it certainly. It certainly helps. That's the right story. Of course, it doesn't help to find the right story. That's still your. But it would probably make it. Yeah, it would probably help for me to get my next project and get. I want to go behind the camera as fast as possible again. So. Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Have you considered, like, an American production, a German production, European Is it a desire to make Hollywood films?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Tim Felbaum]

I mean, I would lie if that was not a dream as when I was a kid. I mean, I'm a movie geek. I love movies more than anything. And it's like, of course, that was a kid's dream always to make once a home film here in Hollywood. But now I see, like, it's. It's all about the story, right?

[Rob Harvilla]

It's.

[Tim Felbaum]

The story has to come from. It has to. That has to. That's the most important criteria on what movie to make next. And this can be for a story that's coming from here or. I also as to say I did. This was the third movie I did in a similar constellation with producer. Dp production designer. Like we were. Or line producer. We are like what I would say my film family. And I also like that. Enjoyed very much working that constellation and could just as well see to do another movie. And that's this wonderful constellation.

[Rob Harvilla]

Very cool, Tim. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen? Have you seen anything great recently?

[Tim Felbaum]

Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. Well, and then I would go with the movie of my dear colleague Edward Berger, Conclave.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yes. So you must know Edward has.

[Tim Felbaum]

Yes, yes, yes. Was really kind. He called me after he got also nominated, and so. Yes, that's the one.

[Rob Harvilla]

What did you like about Conclave?

[Tim Felbaum]

Oh, I have to really say Edward Berger's work, the direction, it was so wonderfully made in a way. Also, there's similarity because it's also in that Microsoft microcosmos and how he portrays that world of the Vatican itself. And so also that specific, specific viewpoint and how much. How. Yeah. How we portrayed that world and the whole visual approach and music also really good.

[Rob Harvilla]

So, yes, it's a great recommendation, Tim. Congratulations. I really enjoyed September 5th. Nice talking to you.

[Tim Felbaum]

I'm glad. I'm glad you enjoyed it. And it was great talking to you. Thank you.

[Rob Harvilla]

Thanks to Tim Felbaum. Thanks to Jack Sanders. Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Later this week. It is sort of an Amanda special.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sort of.

[Rob Harvilla]

So there's.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, so here's the thing. Garbage Rom com and Garbage Love are different.

[Rob Harvilla]

I totally, totally agree with this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So garbage Rom com is. Is. Is where. Where I eat, you know.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And Garbage Love is just a thing that we experience every year around. Around this time as people try to program for. For Valentine's Day.

[Rob Harvilla]

Garbage Love is using a love story with a genre package.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Rob Harvilla]

Basically, it can be any kind of genre, really, but it needs to be a romance inside of a movie that is otherwise appealing to audiences that like action movies, comedies, like broad comedies, sci fi, horror, any of those things. So this week we'll talk about companion. We'll talk about. You're cordially invited. Which is on Amazon right now. We'll talk about love Me maybe. We'll talk about love Hurts if I see it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

Anything else? What else is coming out? There's another movie. Oh, Heart Eyes. I saw that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Rob Harvilla]

And then we'll make a list. We'll make A list of 10 great or essential examples of garbage.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Love.

[Rob Harvilla]

Garbage love. You ready?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I really am.

[Rob Harvilla]

Okay. I'm looking forward to it. I might let you drive.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, okay. That's exciting.

[Rob Harvilla]

Great. We'll see you then.