The 10 Best Movies of the Year ... So Far

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture – Episode “The 10 Best Movies of the Year ... So Far”

Release Date: July 1, 2025

Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins

In this engaging episode of The Big Picture, hosts Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins delve into the mid-year landscape of 2025’s film industry. Joined by a diverse group of Ringer colleagues, including Rob Mahoney, Van Lathan, Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, Adam Namid, Grace Fennessy, and Mallory Rubin, the panel discusses box office trends, standout performances, and their top movie picks for the year so far.

---

I. Overview of the Movie Year So Far

Amanda Dobbins kicks off the conversation by highlighting the significance of reaching the halfway mark of the movie year. She expresses enthusiasm about the current selections from their guests and sets the stage for a comprehensive analysis of what the film industry has offered up to July 2025.

Sean Fennessey adds, “It’s been like, hey, pretty great. Movie year and at the box office, it's been like, fine to good” ([07:06]).

---

II. Box Office Successes and Trends

The hosts and guests examine the box office performance of key films, particularly focusing on the success of Brad Pitt’s latest ventures with Warner Brothers. Sean Fennessey notes, “This is the third June in every 10-year cycle that Brad Pitt has a big movie” ([02:09]).

Amanda Dobbins discusses the international appeal, mentioning that the movie grossed $100 million overseas, reinforcing Warner Brothers' effective marketing strategies over the fifth consecutive movie.

---

III. Spotlight on “Project Hail Mary”

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the upcoming summer and the highly anticipated release of “Project Hail Mary”. Written by Drew Goddard and directed by Phil Lord and Chris Miller, the film is based on Andy Weir’s novel and promises a gripping narrative of survival and human spirit.

Sean Fennessey shares initial impressions: “It’s about a man going into outer space by himself and trying to survive. Trying to solve a problem and to reconnect with the humanity in all of us” ([05:36]).

Amanda Dobbins adds excitement, saying, “I absolutely can't wait” ([05:50]).

The panel anticipates its release next spring, considering its potential impact during the Academy Awards season.

---

IV. The Prediction Game: Box Office and Metacritic Scores

Sean and Amanda engage in a prediction game, forecasting both box office earnings and Metacritic scores for various films. They aim for the smallest margins in their predictions to maximize their points.

Sean Fennessey leads with 840 points to Amanda’s 1,061, but both acknowledge discrepancies in their forecasts. For instance, their predictions for “Thunderbolts” were close to the actual figures, with minor variances in box office and Metacritic scores ([08:05]).

However, some predictions missed the mark, such as their estimates for “Final Destination: Bloodlines”, where the actual box office surpassed their forecasts, showcasing the unpredictability of the film industry ([09:31]).

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V. Movie Picks: Top 10 Best Movies of 2025 So Far

The heart of the episode features each guest’s top movie pick, accompanied by insightful commentary and notable quotes.

1. Rob Mahoney – Sinners

Rob Mahoney champions “Sinners” as his top choice, praising its transformative impact and engrossing narrative.

“What else are we doing here if not talking about sinners?” ([14:07])

He lauds the performances, particularly highlighting Michael Caine's and Hailee Steinfeld’s contributions, and foresees continued discussions around the film well into next year.

2. Van Lathan – Companion

Van Lathan selects “Companion” as his favorite, appreciating its unexpected twists and strong character development.

“It's cool and it's funny and it's a little sexy and it's a little rebellious” ([24:08])

He commends the director Drew Hancock for crafting a smart, well-executed debut film that resonates deeply with him.

3. Chris Ryan – Sinners

Echoing Rob, Chris Ryan also names “Sinners” as his top pick, emphasizing its high-quality filmmaking and captivating storytelling.

“Sinners… is just kind of like the best of us” ([16:35])

He anticipates ongoing acclaim and discussions surrounding the film’s themes and performances.

4. Joanna Robinson – 28 Years Later

Joanna Robinson praises “28 Years Later”, highlighting its visual stunningness, emotional depth, and compelling performances, especially by Spike and Ralph.

“I really thought that this was exceptional, genuinely exceptional” ([68:29])

She draws parallels between the film and other dystopian narratives, appreciating its exploration of community and humanity.

5. Adam Namid – Caught by the Tides

Adam Namid recommends “Caught by the Tides”, an art-house film by Chinese director Xia Zhanke, lauding its narrative innovation and visual craftsmanship.

“It's kind of a hard movie maybe to watch cold, but it’s compelling” ([84:34])

He encourages listeners to seek out this thoughtfully constructed piece despite its niche appeal.

6. Grace Fennessy – Thunderbolts and 7. Mallory Rubin – 28 Years Later

Grace Fennessy chooses “Thunderbolts” for its return to form within the Marvel universe, praising its dynamic character interactions and ensemble cast.

“The dynamic… really did it for me” ([98:07])

Mallory Rubin, echoing Joanna, also selects “28 Years Later”, reinforcing its status as a standout film of the year.

8. Jack Sanders – F1

Producer Jack Sanders picks “F1”, despite acknowledging its formulaic and predictable elements, because of its exceptional action sequences and overall enjoyment factor.

“This movie has a secret sauce which is just sick, racing, and that kind of is all that matters” ([109:44])

Jack underscores the film’s ability to captivate audiences with its thrilling set pieces.

9. Mel (Joanna Robinson) – 28 Years Later

Mel, identified as Joanna Robinson, reiterates her admiration for “28 Years Later”, emphasizing its visual appeal, thought-provoking themes, and outstanding performances.

“It is a deeply explicit and violent story…but it is like a coming of age story” ([69:28])

10. Adam Namid – Caught by the Tides

Reiterating his stance, Adam Namid emphasizes the film’s historical context and emotional resonance, forecasting its place as a top film by year-end.

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VI. Reflections on the Movie Year and Industry Trends

The panel reflects on the diversity and quality of films released in 2025, noting a balance between blockbuster spectacles and original, thought-provoking narratives. They discuss the resurgence of interest in cinema, with audiences eager to return to theaters, as evidenced by increasing lineups and enthusiastic receptions to new releases.

Amanda Dobbins highlights the importance of original mid-budget films succeeding alongside IP-driven blockbusters, fostering a healthier and more varied cinematic landscape.

“It's not just IP stuff to talk about this year, if that makes sense at the box office” ([38:54])

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VII. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, the hosts congratulate their guests on their insightful picks and engage in light-hearted banter about future movie screenings and podcast episodes. They express optimism for the latter half of the year, anticipating continued strong performances from both high-profile blockbusters and unique, original films.

Sean Fennessey concludes with excitement about upcoming releases and the dynamic nature of the movie industry:

“Movies are back. Yeah, they're really back. And it's just wonderful” ([66:20])

The episode successfully captures the enthusiasm and critical analysis that The Big Picture is known for, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the best films of 2025 thus far, enriched with expert opinions and engaging dialogue.

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Notable Quotes:

• Amanda Dobbins ([07:06]): “It’s been like, hey, pretty great. Movie year and at the box office, it's been like, fine to good.”

• Sean Fennessey ([05:36]): “It’s about a man going into outer space by himself and trying to survive. Trying to solve a problem and to reconnect with the humanity in all of us.”

• Rob Mahoney ([14:07]): “What else are we doing here if not talking about sinners?”

• Rob Mahoney ([15:00]): “This would have been my number one. It currently sits atop my rankings for the year.”

• Van Lathan ([24:08]): “It's cool and it's funny and it's a little sexy and it's a little rebellious.”

• Joanna Robinson ([68:29]): “I really thought that this was exceptional, genuinely exceptional.”

• Jack Sanders ([109:44]): “This movie has a secret sauce which is just sick, racing, and that kind of is all that matters.”

---

Recommendations:

• Top Picks: Sinners, Companion, 28 Years Later, Thunderbolts, Caught by the Tides
• Honorable Mentions: Project Hail Mary, Woman in the Yard, F1

Listeners are encouraged to watch these selections to experience the diverse range of storytelling and cinematic excellence highlighted in this episode.

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe Show. That's right, I'm back to have the same in depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games, the X's and O's, the drama. The playoffs are coming up and now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel.

[Unknown]

Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love.

[Zach Lowe]

So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen. Listen to your podcast. Let's go. This episode is brought to you by the Home Depot. Planning a few summer projects. Upgrade your toolbox with 4th of July savings.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wow.

[Zach Lowe]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

Knows everything about money?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Zach Lowe]

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[Sean Fennessy]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

And basically feel like a financial genius.

[Zach Lowe]

And gu, it's totally free.

[Sean Fennessy]

So go on, download the Experian app. Trust me, having a BFF like this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is a total game changer.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm Sean Fennessy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

[Zach Lowe]

And this is the Big Picture. A conversation show about the best 2025 has had to offer so far. It's the end of June, the halfway mark of the movie year. Have the movies been good so far? We'll ask the ringer all stars what they think. 10 different answers to our question, including our own. Are you excited about this?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I am.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, first, let's talk about what's going on in the world of movies. Yeah, F1.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They liked it.

[Zach Lowe]

Box office success. $55 million here in America.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Just saw on Deadline. It has been revised. 57.

[Zach Lowe]

$57 million. Was that you in the final 2 million?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Showing up Sunday night, late night, booking out, IMAX theater.

[Zach Lowe]

That's great news for the producers of that movie. You know, I'm not terribly surprised we talked a little bit about it. The movie obviously has huge international Appeal as well. $100 million internationally. But this is the third June in every 10 year cycle that Brad Pitt has a big movie. In 2005, Mr. And Mrs. Smith, big hit. In 2015, World War Z, big hit. And now this movie. And Warner Brothers is kind of killing it this year. I gotta tell you, this is like the fifth consecutive movie that they have marketed the hell out that they've gotten people excited about and that people have showed up for. And I feel like we started this year being like, oh, Pam and Mike.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know. Really turned.

[Zach Lowe]

What are they doing? Minecraft, Sinners, Final Destination, Bloodlines. Superman is around the corner, right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, yeah, we can see. I know.

[Zach Lowe]

I think it's going to do really well. Superman. And all of a sudden it's all leading up to one battle after another.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, that's true.

[Zach Lowe]

And then that movie's going to make 900 million.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Bring it to Venice, you cowards.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, you're really stumping for that hard hu.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I would like to see Leonardo DiCaprio on the red carpet.

[Zach Lowe]

What if.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But then, yeah, but then I really just have to go begging at Warner Brothers for a ticket, so.

[Zach Lowe]

That's a good point. What if PTA zags and goes straight to Telluride?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you think that would make sense for their.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I think he'll get raves at a Telluride, Sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Except for all of the old people who watch Uncut Gems.

[Zach Lowe]

They don't write reviews. They don't write reviews. Uncut Gems was incredibly well reviewed out of Telluride.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Zach Lowe]

So I don't know. I'm curious. I'm curious to see what happens.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I'm gonna have a great time.

[Zach Lowe]

Anyway, in addition to movies that are coming in the future in 2025, we have a 2026 movie trailer. The movie is called Project Hail Mary.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

If you listen to our conversation with Matt Bellamy after Cinemacon, I think this was the most enthusiastic all of us were about any single thing that they showed us. Now, it was a trailer for a movie that was like 14 months away, which I don't. I didn't appreciate that, and I don't appreciate it now that they're teasing us this long with this movie. Nevertheless, what we saw, I think was closer to six or seven minutes of the movie. This trailer is three minutes we did. I believe so. I believe we saw something longer than what they just put up.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

You don't think so?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I thought we saw the trailer and Then I thought that Ryan Gosling appeared on stage before us.

[Zach Lowe]

He did do that. Yeah. I thought it was longer. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it wasn't. Anyway, this is the new movie from Phil Lord and Chris Miller, who are very renowned producers at this point, but haven't directed a movie. It surprised me to learn in 11 years, not since 22 Jump street have they directed a movie, which is shocking. But then you think back to Solo, the Star wars movie they were supposed to make and then were fired off of and replaced by Ron Howard. So they've been working on the Spider Verse movies and a number of other projects, but as a duo, they haven't made a movie since then. It's written by Drew Goddard, who is adapting an Andy Weir book for the second time. The last time he did this, it was a little movie called the Martian, which Project Hail Mary does have some things in common with the Martian. It's about a man going into outer space by himself and trying to survive. Trying to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And figuring things out.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes. Using science and the human spirit to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Solve a problem and to reconnect with the humanity in all of us.

[Zach Lowe]

That's right. Let me tell you, this is a formula for movies that works.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I absolutely can't wait.

[Zach Lowe]

I think this movie looks incredible. This is a great trailer.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It felt that way in Vegas. We were just like, oh, my God, what is this in Vegas? And then it hit this morning, and the. You know, the group chats are very.

[Zach Lowe]

Our movie group chat was firing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Everybody's pumped about this movie. We'll see. It's coming out next spring.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm ready.

[Zach Lowe]

I think it is in that neat timing of, like, there'll be a lot of lead up to it during the Academy Awards run.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

And.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then it's like a week or two after.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. And I think it ensures that we'll see Ryan Gosling at the Academy Awards as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm thrilled.

[Zach Lowe]

Any other thoughts? Anything else you want to share about Project Hail Mary?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Just. I'm pro.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. So we're talking about the year in movies on this episode. We also previewed the summer with a game this year, and we're halfway through the summer, or at least not. Maybe not in the calendar sense, but in the movie calendar sense. So we've had May and we've had June. Good summer so far.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I think this episode is about finding the good, and everyone has been enthusiastic. I like everyone's picks. And so we finished this episode and we're like, hey, pretty great. Movie year and at the box office, it's been like, fine to good.

[Zach Lowe]

Solid. Yeah, Improving.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Not a disaster.

[Zach Lowe]

Definitely not a disaster.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No one's freaking out about, you know, whatever goes on on your side of the table.

[Zach Lowe]

No, we don't have any, like, $2 billion movies aside from the Chinese Nisha film. Huge. But some solid performers and some really good movies. The game that we played was about both the quality and the financial aspect. So we were predicting box office and Metacritic score domestically only now the tally is in. Yeah, we're trying to get lowest score possible because what we want to have is the smallest margin in terms of our predictions.

[Unknown]

And.

[Zach Lowe]

And at the moment, I am currently leading you. 840 points to 1,061 points.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's simply not what you want.

[Zach Lowe]

It's not what you want. It is obviously what I want. Now, we have gotten a couple things very wrong. Yeah, very wrong. I think the minute after we recorded this, I felt bad about a couple of things.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I felt bad about a lot of things. And I guess I was just in a quote unquote, abundance mindset in general. I haven't. I haven't read that book. I don't know what that's about, the Derek Thompson book, but yeah, it's about.

[Zach Lowe]

The rise of Marxism in our American politics. No, that's not what it's about at all.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I think I was feeling. I'm feeling generous for everyone. You know, I was in a, like. It's like a go, go, economy frame of mind.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, in some. I think in some cases we overestimated and in some cases we significantly underestimated. You know, for example, the first movie that we talked about on that rundown was Thunderbolts. We did pretty good. We did pretty good. I predicted $199 million in the box office was only 9 off. It sits at 190 right now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm just remembering that I revised up during the podcast and I think I was like pretty close to 190 originally. Maybe I was even at 180, so I was closer.

[Zach Lowe]

You went up to 215.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Maybe because you loved the movie so much.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did, yeah. Definitely. My favorite.

[Zach Lowe]

You were 7 off on the Metacritic score. You won 61, I won 64, and it landed at 68. So, like, that's a good example of us being in the relative ballpark. So because of those gaps, I picked up 13 points on that movie. You picked up 32. We won't go through every movie here. I just want to point out a couple of upside picks and a couple of downside picks. Downside pick. Here's one. Final destination. Bloodlines.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What was I doing?

[Zach Lowe]

This is a tricky one. So I landed on 119 coming out of this movie, and you landed on 105. Our box office predictions. I picked 46. You picked 42. Our Metacritic scores, we went 44 and 62. This movie has grossed $136 million in America and had a 73 Metacritic score. I did not expect this movie to be as good as it is or as successful as it is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I, like. Is this correct that I only guessed 42? Because I thought. I remember thinking that I was, like, optimistic about this. Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

It's possible that it's wrong. We'll have to check in with our research department to confirm whether or not it's wrong. Maybe they'll.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That seems low, but I. You know, I don't know.

[Zach Lowe]

We. I think we were leaning on the box office history of this. I do recall the Metacritic score being something that you were higher on. You thought it would do better, so.

[Unknown]

And you are.

[Zach Lowe]

You had a 62 here, but that doesn't matter.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's not where I'm picking up points.

[Zach Lowe]

It's very true. We may have to revise the scoring system next year.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, well, I was just like. It's like $1 is not equivalent to 1. You know, Metacritic score, even 1 million.

[Zach Lowe]

It's not. It's just a game. Yeah, it's just a game. Another failure in our game. Lilo and Stitch.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I just straight up got that wrong because I'm not afraid to. Yes, so did the movie, in my opinion. But that's okay.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, that may be true. A lot of people in our mentions, a lot of young millennials rattling the cage about how important this movie was to them and how this is really the inside out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Two of these things. People don't want the older sister to get an education, so.

[Zach Lowe]

Right. You're referring to the backlash around the storytelling. The lack of ohana in Nani pursuing her career as an oceanographer. No, a marine biologist. Marine biologist. Thank you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you. But she has a portal, so come home. And also, ohana is about. I'm worried about the lack of ohana in the neighbor, you know, who just takes the ATV down and is like, good luck, and then rides the ATV back up the hill. Okay, stop trying the ohana from the social worker.

[Zach Lowe]

You're trying to pivot away from your very poor prediction of box office for this film. You predicted $180 million right now. The movie is still in theaters and it has grossed 395 million.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Listen, I fucked up.

[Zach Lowe]

You fucked up. I fucked up, too. I predicted 218 million. We were pretty close, though. On our Metacritic scores, it came in at a 53 and we both predicted 56. So anyway, we've got two more months of movies. It's probably appropriate to check back in on this roughly mid September again, maybe second week of September, and say, box office has settled. Metacritic has settled. Anything that you're really nervous about in the second half that you've made predictions on Superman? Yeah, we were a little low on Superman.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I think I was higher.

[Zach Lowe]

Were you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I. Now I'm like. So the thing was, is that overall we were lower. And you were like, particularly just lower from a box office perspective.

[Zach Lowe]

On the biggies. Yeah, on the big ones.

[Amanda Dobbins]

On the biggies. And so, like, in total, I think your box office did not, like, even meet the box office of last year.

[Zach Lowe]

That is true.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And it does seem like we're on track overall for the box office to meet or pass last year. So I'm hopeful that, like. Like, I played some averages, you know, and they're going to be like one or two where you get really hosed. And I make up some space, you know, But I don't know whether that's going to be Superman. Like, I'm a little nervous. Again, the press tour, you know, is not indicative of how things with the superhero and the title usually go. But I'm nervous.

[Zach Lowe]

The tracking is really high for this movie right now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's called Superman.

[Zach Lowe]

In the past, that hasn't always meant that it would be a huge success.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's just like, it's the simplicity of it, you know, it's not like it's.

[Zach Lowe]

Not called Manuscript, the World of John.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wick, Ballerina, or whatever. It is literally just like, hey, have you heard of Superman?

[Zach Lowe]

This is the first time a movie has been called Superman since Christopher Reeve.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I think that I, like, bet all my money just on that very simple decision. But we'll see.

[Zach Lowe]

Let's find out. Let's also find out what our colleagues think are the best movies of the year. You ready to jump into that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

What a segue.

[Zach Lowe]

Let's go to our first ringer all star. Okay. Rob Mahoney, podcaster extraordinaire, is here. There's a true star here at the ringer. How are you feeling? Feeling good. Overwhelmed.

[Rob Mahoney]

Now, that's a lot of pressure to live up to.

[Zach Lowe]

In addition to all of your fine work in the World of the NBA and in prestige television. You're a frequent guest of this podcast, an avid movie watcher, and you have the great fortune to of being the first guest in the best movies of the year so far episode, as you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do in every draft episode. You just went right for it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Look, I'm not going to dance around it. You know, usually I end up with what I think is the first choice in these selections. And then you swoop in and you're like, actually, I want to talk about that movie. I want to talk about sinners.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

What else are we doing here if not talking about sinners?

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's a really good point. It was. It's the obvious first round pick, but it is the first round pick.

[Rob Mahoney]

Again, I'm not trying to get cute with it. To demonstrate the power of sinners, I had the pleasure of seeing Materialists with you, Amanda.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

After the movie, Amanda's glued to her seat. Just to make sure there is not a 50 years flash ahead post credits.

[Zach Lowe]

Stand up scene with Dakota Johnson.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was really shook. Okay. I didn't even know until we were podcasting. Still haven't seen it, by the way.

[Zach Lowe]

No, that sequence.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, you'll just have to buy it on 4K Blu Ray.

[Rob Mahoney]

Look, it'll pop. It's tremendous. But yeah, like, that's ultimately, this is the kind of movie that changes what you want to look for in other movies. Like, that's the kind of experience I'm looking for.

[Zach Lowe]

This would have been my number one. It currently sits atop my rankings for the year. It is a remarkable movie. I think that its success is now bound up in its greatness to quality. And the film has been such a phenomenon, at least here in the United States where it's made a ton of money and maybe will be a movie that we talk about all the way through next March. I'm not quite sure. What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

One can only hope, I think, I mean, I think it's going to be in contention for a lot of things potentially including a lot of different performances could be recognized for this. Like Michael Caine. Oh, my God. Like, forget debut. Just in terms of a powerhouse revelation performance. I absolutely. I find it hard to ask for more than that.

[Zach Lowe]

It's kind of. He's kind of an extraordinary find. I was listening to some of his music that he made before this movie and it's in that kind of like, I would say the Travis Scott zone. Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, interesting.

[Zach Lowe]

Like maybe a little bit of T pain thrown in there as well.

[Rob Mahoney]

So you're saying There was some real scouting done here. You know, you really had to get to the depths of.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't even know if he played guitar before he took got this part.

[Rob Mahoney]

It sounds like not.

[Zach Lowe]

He literally transforms into a Mississippi Delta blues musician before our eyes in the movie and is amazing. I think obviously Michael B. Jordan will. There will be conversation about him through the end of the year.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Hailee Steinfeld.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Congratulations on your recent marriage to Josh Allen.

[Zach Lowe]

I think there will be a lot of conversation about her in the NFL locker room. Certainly. And we're happy for her. I didn't know she had that in her bag.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I didn't either. But I've. I. It has stayed with me.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think there's a lot of that in this movie. You know, Jack o' Connell didn't know he had that in his bag.

[Zach Lowe]

Totally.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wumi Masaku isn't doing this stuff in Marvel Fair. You know, like, I think getting to turn back layers of all these really interesting performers and it's such a great synergy of style and music and performance and ultimately, like messaging like this is a movie that has a lot to say. It is in many senses. What if From Dusk Till dawn had more to say than Salma Hayek is hot and that's a powerful temple.

[Zach Lowe]

There's nothing wrong with that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's valuable. But, you know, there needs this movie.

[Zach Lowe]

Need more scenes where a stripper pours tequila down her ankle and a man drinks it off of her toes. Do you think that would have made Sinners better?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think it would have fit in. Honestly.

[Zach Lowe]

It would have fit in of a piece.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Listen, everyone goes for it in their own way in this film.

[Zach Lowe]

It's very exciting. Obviously, when the movie came out, we celebrated it quite a bit on the show and I think Coogler kind of represents the best of us. This is really what I'm like kind of banging the table for every week. I think it's a great pick for this. I'm very curious to see what he does next. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is there a blanker check than this blank check?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

This is as blank as they get these days. Which is funny because he already had multiple billion dollar movies and he, you know, he is apparently making Black Panther 3.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

Denzel Washington is going to be in Black Panther 3. Okay. I don't. Is Letitia Wright Black Panther. That's not. Doesn't seem ideal.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, it was not ideal in the second one.

[Zach Lowe]

It was not. I hope he's got something else coming up right behind that that is in the Sinner's. If not the same genre, the same vibe, that same sense of mastery that he brings to the table.

[Rob Mahoney]

That would be nice. But I'm not mad at Black Panther 3 either. And at this point, I just am not going to doubt anything that he wants to do. Like, I think between Creed and the first Black Panther in this, those are three cooler movies that I don't know that anyone could have done it in the way that he did it.

[Zach Lowe]

Totally agree.

[Rob Mahoney]

So, like, a really singular vision for these movies that you would think Creed would have, like a pretty paint by numbers kind of enterprise. And all of a sudden it becomes this new and exciting thing. And you would think this could be a pretty straight down the middle genre movie. And it turns into something that's like so specific and captures something that's really hard to keep in the bottle. And it manages to do it for the entire runtime. I'm just like, I can't get enough of this movie, honestly.

[Zach Lowe]

Great job.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, it's yours. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Well done, Rob. You son of a bitch. We'll see you next time. Okay. We're here with Van lathan. Higher learning 1/2 1/4 of the midnight Boys.

[Van Lathan]

Quarter of the Midnight Boys.

[Zach Lowe]

What other shows you on? Rewatchables.

[Van Lathan]

Rewatchables do a lot of stuff. Also, Ryan Rosillo let you guys know Face of the Ringer. We. We've come up with that and we've done that. Sean.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You were a finalist.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Dobbins. First four out. Just like I was.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, great.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, first four out. You were a finalist.

[Zach Lowe]

Mandy.

[Van Lathan]

You mean Mandy Dobbins? We did your player comp.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, great. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Jason Tatum. You're the Jason Tatum.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I've heard of him, but he is. He's in recovery right now.

[Zach Lowe]

Recovery from an injury, not from abuse of any substance.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he. Then they. He had the surgery the next morning. Bill thinks he's gonna be ready sooner than everyone else.

[Zach Lowe]

And Jayson Tatum has all the tools.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Zach Lowe]

Has won a title, but has no swag.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, that's not.

[Zach Lowe]

That is absolutely true.

[Van Lathan]

We did it because of family stuff. Cause he really is deuce. He's his son and he's deuces with him everywhere. That's why.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, there are two sons.

[Van Lathan]

No, just one son is Deuce.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, so you are her. That's why.

[Zach Lowe]

Got it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Just trying to see how you do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's rude.

[Van Lathan]

I get it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What's his computer?

[Van Lathan]

His comp was. I can't remember. Me and. Me and Chris Ryan came up with this stuff. But no, we only did comps for the people that were the first four out. Because you're a finalist, you didn't need a comp.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, Sorry, Jordan. Obviously, the best movies of the year, you know, we just had somebody in here, Rob Mahoney, and he chose the film Sinners.

[Van Lathan]

Fantastic.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, that's great. So what do you think about that?

[Van Lathan]

Appreciate that, Jack. That was awesome that they go just the way things go. Here they go, van, we're doing the best movies of the year. Can you come in and tell us your favorite film? And I go, oh, no brainer. And they go, oh, you can't choose Sinners. So. Which means that here on the big pic, they don't want me to be invited to the Soul Train Awards, the BET Awards, the NAACP Awards. They don't want me walking around with any type of cachet in the culture. So I appreciate that. Jack Sanders, my new enemy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well. But no, here's the thing. Can you tell the listeners why you are not allowed to choose it?

[Van Lathan]

Because Mahoney chose it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. It's not us. Once again, Rob Mahoney, like the dark angel of the big picture, comes and takes things. Takes things away.

[Zach Lowe]

I would say that's not allyship.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's not allyship at all. And by the way, people talk about. A lot of people have talked about, have spoken about, should I say, the move that I made like a year and a half ago to where I wanted to be on more ringer stuff. And I was a lot place. No one is fucking taking over this place like Mahoney. Like, you walk into the refrigerator and you try to get something, and it's like Mahoney's put his name on it. No one has taken over this place.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's incredibly true. What was his computer?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, what did we. What is it we say Mahoney's comp was? We got into it.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know. I cannot remember. I've never heard any of your podcasts. I don't know.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not appreciate that. This was a CR thing. CR had the Mahoney comp. I can't remember exactly what it was, though.

[Zach Lowe]

But whatever it was, I mean, he's giving Jokic. Really.

[Van Lathan]

He's giving Jokic.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, he's giving Jokic kind of can't be stopped, right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's rather just like, go be with his family. And also horses and he's free time. Jokic likes horses, right?

[Zach Lowe]

He does, yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Thank you so much, man. You know what.

[Zach Lowe]

Maybe next year, Face of the Ringer could be. Could crack the top four.

[Van Lathan]

It's Mallory Rubin.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

So.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

You know what I mean?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sometimes people who don't really pay attention think that because we have the same color hair and our women, we're the same person.

[Van Lathan]

That is so funny.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Because if you listen to higher learning.

[Unknown]

You'Re going to hear that literally.

[Zach Lowe]

Rachel said that. It's very funny. It was amazing that she actually enunciated a comment you might see on YouTube from time to time. That's true. Well, let's talk about movies.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

You didn't get Sinners.

[Van Lathan]

Did not get Sinners.

[Zach Lowe]

He. Jack o' Connelled you. He did. And he will never be invited to the barbecue now. Right.

[Van Lathan]

Appreciate that. Yeah. Stay away. Eat all the food.

[Zach Lowe]

So what'd you choose?

[Van Lathan]

I chose Companion.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This is a great pick.

[Van Lathan]

And so I was going to choose Thunderbolts, but that was only a reflexive pick. After Sinners wasn't there. If I think about the movie that I was most pleasantly surprised with and the most satisfied with thus far, its Companion. Like, I, you know, I don't really know how to articulate the feeling of, oh, my God, this is a film that I would have loved when. I don't know what I'm really trying to say. I struggle with it. But there used to just be movies that you would cut them on and you would be like, what's going on? Like, what's happening? Starts off with a really. It seems like a scene that, you know, is some kind of dream sequence. It doesn't seem real, but you're wondering why it's there. And then the movie takes you on some twists and turns. Turns, shall I say, that you really, honestly didn't see coming. And then it has something to say. It's not unlike Ex Machina. I mean, it's like a kind of like the fun version of that movie. Because it is not fun.

[Zach Lowe]

No.

[Van Lathan]

It's fun to watch, but it's.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. It doesn't end well.

[Zach Lowe]

It's serious.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. And it's existential dread and all of that stuff. But this one is. It's cool and it's funny and it's a little sexy and it's a little rebellious. And it has a villain turn from Jack Quaid, who you can't even see as a villain. Very unexpected, and I really, really enjoyed it.

[Zach Lowe]

Pretty good pick. It's a really good movie. It's like kind of the perfect first half of the year down the middle. Modest genre movie. It just works and it did okay at the box office, but I feel like it's now actually a little underseen. It doesn't quite do better.

[Van Lathan]

I saw it in a hotel in New York when I was waiting to do something on cnn, which Bill really loves when I do that. So it's one of his favorite things. So, like, what's the. Do we not market films like this? When I say just cool movies, it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is a little bit of it. Like, it has a twist. And so to be able to. I think it wisely did not put the twist in the marketing, but. Or maybe it did and I just didn't watch it. But it was the first part of the twist, but not the second part of the twist. But it's hard to sell people. And that was also a little bit like pre Jack Quaid moment, because that was the first of the two Jack Quaid movies of the year. See also Novocaine. So people, I guess, were just kind of asleep at the wheel. But I agree with you. I've really liked smart, funny script executed just perfectly for what it is. Good performances. And like, the thing you're saying of where you're trying to figure out, like, what's going on and you're like, oh, I do want to know what happens while it also being, like, very recognizable. Like, here are the genre beats that I need. But, like, the Tesla scene is just, like, extremely funny.

[Van Lathan]

Funny.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And you're like, oh, I know. I mean, it's a Tesla, right?

[Zach Lowe]

It's not actually a Tesla, but it's meant to be a Tesla scene.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's supposed to be, yeah. And you're like, oh, of course, if I'd thought through this, like, this is exactly what you would write. But I'm very amused and entertained by it.

[Van Lathan]

And then, like, you know, the film gets a little light where it should be dark. Gets a little dark where it should be light. There's a little. There's some ominousness in some of the things earlier. I don't want to spoil it for anyone that hasn't seen it, but I wonder for a movie like that, if I'm not in any way trying to recast the film or saying that the leads of the movie didn't do a great job, but if Florence Pugh is your lead and then Paul Mescal is in the Jack Quaid part is that movie.

[Zach Lowe]

It's bigger, but I don't know if.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I don't know if it would.

[Zach Lowe]

Be as surprising in a way, there's something surprising. Sophie Thatcher in that Part holding. We're holding our stock for Sophie Thatcher. We are not selling really, really good in Heretic. No, just that this movie didn't like Pop Pop. Oh, yeah, Yeah. Y. But it did okay. I think it's a great pick. Drew Hancock was on the show. Writer, director. This is his first movie. He'd written a lot of screenplays, but he never directed a movie before. I like it, man.

[Van Lathan]

And I'll say this before I get out of here about that. There's intention. Okay? So in this being the first thing that a guy like that would direct. Because if I was looking to get into the director's chair, I wouldn't think, what is my best script. I would think, what is my most directable script? Like, what can I apply? Because these guys make these movies, and then, like, later on, the stuff that they're making by their fourth or fifth film, a lot of times doesn't look like the first thing that they made.

[Zach Lowe]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

They've perfected their visual craft. They've perfected the way that they work with actors. But a lot of times, young directors bite off too much when they want to sit down. Cause they want to show people how badass they are. This is a movie that's well directed, but it's a very lean film. So it's a perfect film if. With a great script, if you're going to take your first shot at it. It's very smart of him, very savvy of him.

[Zach Lowe]

Great pick. Companion.

[Van Lathan]

Boom. Go see it. Also see Sinners, and We love Sinners. And Rob Mahoney. To hell with you.

[Zach Lowe]

Coming to us live from Bulgaria, it's CR Chris Ryan. CR where are you, man?

[Chris Ryan]

I'm on the front lines. We're trying to bring Wheel of Time back just for Amanda's husband. I'm gonna be filming it myself on my iPhone. Never let them tell you something's impossible, guys.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, we miss you here in Los Angeles. Hopefully, we'll be reunited soon. In the meantime, we're talking about the best movies of the year so far. You've talked with us on some episodes about some very good movies 28 years later. For example, recently. Has this been a good movie year for you?

[Chris Ryan]

It's been a really, really fun movie year. I think that I was just talking with Andy about how we're kind of missing a show of the summer and that the two big ones that we were kind of thinking about, if you had asked us six months ago, we were like, well, Squid Game last season, Squid Game and the Bear would be the Big shows this summer and they both binge dropped and have had mixed responses.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Haven't gotten to the bear yet.

[Chris Ryan]

I just said I had a mixed responses and no spoilers. But they are over in a day. And I feel like there's been more conversation. You hear people talking about more movies, you get more text messages about movies. You, you see lines outside of movie theaters, people dying to get in. I got to see F1.

[Zach Lowe]

Vroom, vroom.

[Chris Ryan]

So, yeah, it's been, it's been a good year of movies. And I've. Ever since Sinners, I've just been feeling really fired up. I think early part of the year, I was like, black Bag's good, but I don't know what else. And now ever since Sinners, I feel like we've been on, like, a real hot streak.

[Zach Lowe]

Does feel that way. That's been a recurring theme through some of these conversations today. So for you, you know, Sinners was off the board. Black Bag is off the board. 20 years later is off the board.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know if this. Those movies would have been your number ones. I know you like them, but like, so what is your number one favorite movie of the year so far?

[Chris Ryan]

Materialists.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I've been. I. I love you. I'm so.

[Chris Ryan]

I wanted to talk about something that I usually wouldn't get a chance to talk about on this show. I mean, I've talked about warfare. I've talked about 28 years later. I, I love Sinners. Like, yeah, I guess numerically it wouldn't be my number one movie of the year. But this is just an example of like a pretty. I would say the best part about this year is it's been interesting and it hasn't been boring. I've had lots of years where I've been, like, I admire the craftsmanship, but Jesus Christ, tears are coming out of my eyes. And that's one thing you can't say about Materialists is while I'm sure some people may have felt like they were watching old people eat with this movie, like, I found myself at least deeply, deeply, deeply engaged. And I think a lot of that has to do with the choices that Celine song made, filmmaking wise. But. And also maybe some of our. Our performers made and their styles of performance, which I'm sure was directed to do so. But I found myself, like, talking and thinking about this movie and then reading about it, having a great time reading about people being extremely mad about this film afterwards. So it's, it's, it's definitely, I think, something I hope People go check out and continue to talk about.

[Zach Lowe]

So we're. We're three weeks out from. From the great Materialist Freak out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The feedback is not done. I was personally confronted on Saturday night by two close friends with their opinions.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Not just a materialist, but of our podcasts about materialists.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Because people are engaged. They were excited to see this movie. They thought it was going to be one thing. They got another. They were outraged. And so I just. It. Chris is right. Everyone wants to share their opinion about this. Very loudly.

[Chris Ryan]

I had a fun journey to this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I'll tell you about it because I hear a lot about. I wasn't expecting this. And this was not the movie that was sold to me. Reverse for me. I read everything and listened to you guys before I saw the movie. And I think it actually helped in the case of materials because you don't get the rope a dope. You don't get the classic Celine song Okie Doke, which we. We've come to expect. I went in there.

[Zach Lowe]

I think that's more on the movie studio, for the record.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, sure, of course. But if you go into this movie and expect it to be a little bit more like Hal Hartley or Whit Stillman than Nancy Myers, I think it plays a lot better. It makes a lot more sense if you understand that there's like, an affectation going on to the acting and that it's very like, literary and it's writing or dense. Maybe not literary, but very dense writing style with the dialogue. And then about 20 minutes into the movie, I noticed something because it's set in New York City and in a very social part of New York City. Weddings, dates, restaurants, street corners. You can't hear a thing. She makes this really interesting choice to zero out background noise so that all you hear are these whispered conversations between these actors. And then I found myself deeply focused on what they were talking about, even though I didn't really think it was, like, reflective of a character or like, that these were real people, quote, unquote. But it just got my brain going in this interesting direction that rarely happens with a big summer movie.

[Zach Lowe]

This was my positive spin on the movie. It's a really good idea movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I agree with you.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a really fun movie to think about and take apart. Even though those things that we're taught, like, we are very now all comfortable being, like, the acting in this movie is bad. Just outwardly saying that, which is not something we usually say on pods. I think it's because we hold Celine song in some esteem. And we hold a smart urban drama in a certain level of esteem.

[Chris Ryan]

But, and anybody who's lost a mother while they were in the Amazon researching spiders, like, I think we owe them respect and deference.

[Zach Lowe]

I couldn't agree more. And she's obviously still experiencing that trauma, and that explains why she is the way that she is in the film. But I agree with you. I think the writing is actually quite interesting, and I think it's okay that it is at times inhuman.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, that there is a kind of philosophy, textbook quality.

[Chris Ryan]

I think the subtext film is the text of the film. Right. Like, it's like all the ideas of the movie are actually the characters in the, and the movie itself.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And the people are merely like the vessels for that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But, and then they also look pretty for the most part, so that's good. And then there, and there is good music. Yeah, I, I, they are chess pieces in her, in her, you know, playwriting turns, you know, serialized exploration of love triangles in cinema. But, but that's okay. And, you know, I found myself at this dinner and I, my friend Aaron, like, sent me a text to apologize the next day. And Aaron, it's okay. You were like, you made some great points. But I found myself defending, like, not only that it was an idea movie, but like, the ideas itself. I was like, I don't know, it's, you know, it is Jane Austen. It's Edith Wharton. It's this like, long tradition of.

[Sean Fennessy]

The.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The romantic world as like a financial and status stand in for women. And like, I guess we're supposed to be past that, but are we? And like, how do people think about that? And I, to me, I like, because I have watched literally every single other movie and read almost all the other books in that tradition. I find it interesting other people didn't care so much, but that's okay. That's okay.

[Zach Lowe]

Let me ask you this, Chris. I know you're not the world's greatest romantic comedy expert, but the exasperation that the romantic comedy faithful have around the movie, does that indicate that we should also just be green lighting significantly more rom coms for movie theaters? That seems to be an obvious takeaway, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, I think just maybe like a broader genre, like, policy in general would be good. But yeah, I definitely think if you took away like three tongue in cheek John Wick ripoffs and made like a more expensive version of whatever Netflix, Amazon or Apple rom com we get twice a year. I don't know. I mean, I also really Just appreciated the fact that Lover Hater, like, one movie dislike another movie. Celine Song's obviously really talented and really interesting. I mean, I think Past Lives was something that, like, affected people a little bit more deeply and personally and had a more emotional curve to it. But this was, like, provocative to me. I mean, now people might be like, yeah, provocative in the sense that I want to throw it in a dumpster, but I think that's cool. Like, I think it's cool. Honestly, it made me kind of think of warfare a little bit too, where it's just like, yeah, it's kind of neat to have movies that people are like, I want to light this on fire. I hated it. Yeah, it's way better to have that feeling than be like, I guess ballerina had some cool scenes.

[Zach Lowe]

I, I, I couldn't agree more with that. That position and the idea of there being some division and point of view on whether a movie works or not.

[Chris Ryan]

And even the writing that's been critical of the film, which I think a lot of it is very entertaining. It's like that writing is entertaining because people are being engaged in a different way.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, yes, another CGI slop fest where a car drives through a building and then lands on the moon. It's like, no, it's like, this is I. You're reacting because maybe you don't want the world to be like this, or you do want the world to be more like something. And I think that that's fascinating. It's what I want movies to do more of.

[Zach Lowe]

I couldn't agree more. I have also noticed, as I'm sure you have, that Celine song has kind of, with the movie, been able to elevate herself out of the typical kind of movie discourse into appearing on the Modern Love podcast for the New York Times and, like, becoming the subject of a kind of discourse that is more national, not just kind of entrenched in Hollywood. A24. All that stuff that past lives was.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Kind of dominated by and even within, like, film culture. I, you know, I did note that my friends who are, who don't listen to this podcast, bless them, were also like, I would like to go see Materialist. I have an opinion about this. Like, I, I have heard from everyone in my life about this movie, which is fun. Movies are back and materialistic. Chris's point being, like, so divisive, I guess, or at least inspiring. Such reaction is another way of saying, like, yeah, everyone is paying attention to movies, so that's good.

[Zach Lowe]

CR. Thanks, buddy.

[Chris Ryan]

You're welcome, guys.

[Zach Lowe]

We'll see you soon.

[Chris Ryan]

Come home only when Wheel of Time is back.

[Zach Lowe]

Joanna Robinson is here. Pod Princess of the Ringer Podcast Network. Oh, Princess House of our president. Siege TV podcast. What other pods are you on?

[Sean Fennessy]

You know this one as much as I can be. You know, just trying to infiltrate where I can. Hello.

[Zach Lowe]

Speaking of infiltration. Yeah, a useful word for your selection. But before we get to your selection, good movie year. Have you been enjoying yourself? Mixed meh.

[Sean Fennessy]

Bad mixed. But with a message that is exciting. Like the things that are hitting are really interesting to me. That makes sense.

[Zach Lowe]

What do you mean by that?

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, we're about to talk about an original mid budget film and whether or not those can succeed. And in some cases they have succeeded this year. And that's really exciting for what we might look at going forward. It's not just IP stuff to talk about this year, if that makes sense at the box office.

[Zach Lowe]

So. No, you're relieved. You're very relieved about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I am. So I'm with Jo. It's like mixed positive so far. And she stole what I would have picked had I. Yeah, interesting. I think probably my on paper number one for sentimental and personal reasons. So that's okay.

[Zach Lowe]

I think you've just, that's exciting. You've just given it away. What is it? What's your pick, Joanna?

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, it's Black Bag. It's Steven Soderbergh, it's Cate Blanchett, it's Michael Fassbender, It's Spies, it's Marriage, it's wigs, it's turtlenecks, it's everything you could possibly want.

[Zach Lowe]

Wait, who's wearing a wig in the movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Cate Blanchett.

[Sean Fennessy]

Cate Blanchett.

[Zach Lowe]

Sorry.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, come on.

[Zach Lowe]

I think I knew that. I think I knew that.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a really good one though. Like, it's like got supporting billing in this movie. It's incredible.

[Zach Lowe]

So, you know, we did an episode about this movie and this was a film that was a real problem for this show because I knew that like a billion people weren't gonna go see it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Zach Lowe]

And it's all in the telling. Right. It's all in the plott and the, the, the elegance of the story unloading and like you don't want to spoil a movie like that for people on a podcast. It's been like four months since it came out. Do we feel that the world has watched Black Bag? Can we talk about it freely at this point?

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, I feel like a. We could talk about it freely. Freely. But I, I also don't think people are watching Black Bag or have watched it. And that's part of why we're here, I think, to promote something that people haven't, like, decided to check out yet. But they can. They can press pause in this podcast right now and go watch it. And only 90 minutes later they will be done.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So 90, beautifully orchestrated, wonderfully shot, slick, 90% well performed. I have one casting note, but that's okay. I know everyone's. Everyone's doing great. Yeah. And it's available to watch at home. And then you can say, yay, movies.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm. Let's just talk about the. Well, I don't want to get too deep into your problems with the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't have any problems.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought this was like an amazingly well cast movie. And it does feel like all Steven Spielberg or Steven Spielberg, Steven Soderbergh movies now feel like they are like I'm almost watching him make them in real time because of what we know about the way that he produces the movies where he produces, shoots, edits and directs the movies and cuts them in real time. And that idea being in my head makes it feel like the movie is happening in real time to me. You know what I mean? I've kind of metatextualized my experience of watching it. And this movie is clearly an homage to a certain kind of 60s, there goes the ember 60s and 70s spy thriller. But it also feels like a very modern relationship drama. What was it about it that clicked for you, Joanna?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I love a spy movie. I love marriage inside of a different genre movie. I'm a huge Mr. And Mrs. Smith fan. Personally. I love the Thin man movies. All of this is paying homage to that. But I think what's been so interesting to hear Steven Soderbergh talk about David Kebb, the screenwriter, talk about is how who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf Was their main influence for this movie. And it's got these banger dinner scenes and you can just see that dynamic inside of just something that feels very slick, very oceans, very, you know, high gloss. The thing that, you know, Steven Soderbergh gave interviews after this movie came out, didn't do very well about how the audiences didn't show up for this movie the way that he hoped they would or that he needed them to, or the way, you know, we could deliver a message to wider Hollywood of these are the kinds of movies people will show up for and they didn't for this movie. And, you know, his theory was something about, you know, original movies or Something like that. But I worry that Steven Soderbergh, in doing so many direct to video, you know, he had his Netflix deal and then his HBO Max deal. Like, I feel like Steven Soderbergh did a disservice to the idea of a Steven Soderbergh film. It doesn't feel as big as it. I think it should. He made a bunch of small movies, and there's nothing wrong with a small movie. But then when you try to make something like this with a. A $50 million budget, it's not massive, but it's, you know, they have to make their money back. It's not $2 million, which has been, you know, some of his other budgets recently. And then it just doesn't feel like an event the way that it really deserves to. I think.

[Zach Lowe]

I think there's definitely something to that. I. I respect the fact that he wanted to just continue working through Covid. And so one of the reasons why he signed that, that HBO Max deal, I think was just to kind of continue to put films out. I think those films are now going to end up a little memory hold for some people because they're only on that service and they don't have physical media representation. And so movies like this maybe don't feel like as much of an event. But I think it also goes back even to like, Logan Lucky and kind of his return post retirement and thinking that he had kind of cracked a new paradigm of how to release movies like that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Zach Lowe]

And that didn't really work out all that well. And I just think there's something to the fact that he likes a certain kind of adult drama.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's making movies for grownups. And the grownups who watch Steven Soderbergh movies are watching them at home and. And maybe they'll do pvod. Like, maybe they'll pay for it, but, like, probably not. They'll just. They'll just rent it and they'll check it out and be like, that was really great.

[Zach Lowe]

I agree. And I think, like, the things that are encouraging this year, the sinners and the 28 years later, they're all kind of like attached to a little bit more spectacle. And this is not a spectacle, right? It is like sharp and cool and really smart, but it's not. There's not a lot of whiz bang in black bag.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's not vampires and it's not zombies, but it is spies and it is movie stars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I think that we might just not be in that era anymore. And it's not That I disagree with, with what you said about his own approach, is just thinking about, like, how stubborn, you know, Christopher Nolan was or something like that. Like, the people who are so stubborn about my movie needs to feel like an event. Their movies still feel like events.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And for Soderbergh, who chose to do something different, it's interesting. But when. When you really need it to come through and feel like an event, it didn't for people. And that's too bad, because this movie, I thought, was just really phenomenal. I had such a good time.

[Zach Lowe]

I did, too. I think it's interesting to think about in the arc of his career, too, because he wasn't. He's certainly the oceans guy and the traffic guy, but he's also the bubble guy and the full frontal guy. And, you know, he always is kind of on these, like, digressions and discursions through whatever kind of distribution style he's making within the kind of movie that he's making. And maybe he's, I don't know, lost some standing in the mind of the moviegoer. I'm not. I'm not really sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He just. He wanted to keep working through Covid, as you said. But, like, this is a man who likes to work. This is the second Stephen Faulkner Soderbergh film of the year that was, you know, there was also presence, also quite good.

[Zach Lowe]

He.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And. And there is something to the. The way that he makes movies and the way that he likes to make movies, which is not that it is. There's just a lot of them. He wants to keep trying stuff. He wants to be in the moment. And so that is. But I think just, like, the volume and the experimental, like, oh, let's do this. Let's try this. What if we did this? Does sort of run counter to what is. We've been waiting 45 years. And I had to, you know, carry the film canisters on its, like, ship by myself to every theater.

[Zach Lowe]

What's wrong with that? What is wrong with that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Listen, that's great, but it's like part of the Steven Soderbergh experience is like, oh, look like. And another great movie.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. I couldn't believe there was an announcement that he's got another film premiering at tiff. The Christophers. I was like, where the fuck. When is he doing all that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

And he's reading every single great work of literature.

[Zach Lowe]

It is really amazing, the movie itself. We've had a bit of a Michael Fassbender comeback here. He's kind of playing the same character in everything he's been doing recently. I didn't spend a ton of time with the Agency, the American remake.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I finally loved Hero.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Did you watch it, Joanna?

[Sean Fennessy]

I did, yeah. We covered it on prestige, and I thought it was fine, but the. The Agency felt like just completely fine. And this feels actually quite special to me, you know, and this, the Agency, is what I was worried this was going to be. And then this wound up being a bit more special than that, so.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. I think this and the Killer, I think, are two of, like, his best performances. They are playing a very similar tune.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, massive restraint process. The expression of intellect.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

Kind of suavity.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. Fincher and Soderbergh are also simpatico. And the. Let's just, like, let's a respect for getting this done exactly right.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then. And maybe not showing all our emotional cards all at once, though I do find this. I find Black Bag to be incredibly romantic, which says a lot about me, I guess.

[Sean Fennessy]

But, no, it's like, in a deeply demented, fun way, it's very romantic. Like him talking to her about what he would do for, you know, the premise of the film being. And this is just premise, not twist, but premise of the film being that there is a leak at the Agency. He has to investigate fellow spies. And one of the people on the shortlist is his wife, Catherine, played by Cate Blanchett. And so he is both investigating but also has a vested interest. And they're, like, obsessed with each other. And that comes through. It's not cold and chilly, actually. It's like. It is reserved and elegant and precise, but there is this sort of underneath obsession with each other and then the messiness of the other spies around them, the frailties of the other spies around them, I think just makes it really, really potent for me.

[Zach Lowe]

Potent for me is Marissa Abella.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know that.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm very pleased to see her bounce back after Back to Black and would like to see her in more films. Her toe to toe with Fassbender, I thought. Very amusing as someone who kind of can't hold it together in the face of his. His chill, his cold. Tom Burke, this movie. I was gonna say this movie has incredible supporting cast across the board. Tom Burke is excellent in this. Very, very funny. It's a very funny movie as well. Very knowingly written in a lot of ways. And Pierce Brosnan also, and Naomi Harris. Like, the terrific cast. Is Roger Jean Page your issue?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Zach Lowe]

What's the issue?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't totally want to spoil it for everyone. But when he has to play his role, you know, it's okay. He's not at the level of everybody else around the table, literally.

[Sean Fennessy]

He needs to feel like a credible threat to Fassbender's character, just in terms of all the various machinations. And he doesn't really like, a Tom Burke would feel like more of a credible threat to me than a reggae Jean Page.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I think that that's one of the key wrong footing moments of the movie is you think that this is going to be Tom Burke and Fassbender toe to toe. And in fact, it is not that movie at all. Joanna, great pick. This is a really, really good movie. This is without a doubt one of the, I think, probably Our Collective Top 5 Movies of the year.

[Sean Fennessy]

Can I just say, I love doing this podcast with you every year. This is the third year in a row that Rob Mahoney has sniped my actual number one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Listen, it's. Listen, take the complaints to Rob. You see him more than we do. No, no, no, no.

[Sean Fennessy]

I am not complaining to you. He has already been every single person.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That'S come on this episode. And, you know, it is a. It's a big picture tradition in a way that Rob screws everyone over.

[Sean Fennessy]

I had lunch with Rob yesterday. Here's what he told me. He was like, I'm just fast on a slack response. And I was like, that's true. He's just the quickest on the slack response. When someone sends out a message saying, what's your best movie of the year so far?

[Zach Lowe]

I would say that this was also Van's. His was also Van's number one. And Van added a note of socio cultural acknowledgement to Rob sniping, you know, Jack o' Connelling down the rocky road to Dublin.

[Sean Fennessy]

Here's a true story. I texted Rob after Jack told me what had already been taken. And I was like, wow, Rob, this is the first year you didn't take my number one pick. And he's like, what do you mean? I was like, yeah, Van took it. He was like, I took sinners. I was like, oh, I assumed Van got sinners. I was like, you got sinners? He was like, yeah. I was like, okay, I'll go look in the mirror about that. But, yeah, exactly. But he said this would have been his number two. So we're all sort of on the same page about Black Bag.

[Zach Lowe]

Joanna. Thank you. This was a great pick.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thanks for having me.

[Zach Lowe]

Charles Holmes is here. One quarter of the Midnight Boys. Okay, Best Movie. Has it been a good movie here for you? How are you feeling?

[Unknown]

Yes, Because I just saw F1. Just saw Jurassic World's Rebirth.

[Zach Lowe]

Did you like Rebirth? Don't tell us any details, but did you like it? Because we haven't seen it yet.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Just like a Do a Gladiator, like put it out and then. Yeah, that's a thumbs up for the listeners at home.

[Unknown]

I will just say it is in the same. Not even quality, but just like F1. Both of those movies. I'm just like, okay, we can make blockbusters. Like, you can get from point A to point B to point C. And I'm just like, you didn't waste my time.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, great.

[Unknown]

I'm not saying that the movie has necessarily put Rebirth life into the Jurassic.

[Zach Lowe]

Park series, but I'm just like, hey.

[Unknown]

It'S better than the other fucking ones we were getting.

[Zach Lowe]

That's good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you think that I need to rewatch any of the previous. I remember the events of Jurassic World 1993, but anything after that. Do I need to rewatch to know where I am?

[Unknown]

No, literally, the thing Vance said walking out where he's just like, yeah, they just kind of force awakens it. And I'm like, that is, you just need to watch the originals. And then you're like, all right, I get it.

[Zach Lowe]

You're a legendary hater too. So this is like a mixed positive. Is a. A pretty big positive for most.

[Unknown]

I'm just at the point where I'm like, when I go to the movies, I'm just like, oh, I'm glad. This is the only place I want it to be. And a lot of the movies recently have just been like, guys, you have forgotten it in F1 and Jurassic World. Not perfect movies, but movie stars doing shit. Hell yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, all right, I'm happy to hear that. So. But you did not pick either of those movies. What movie did you select?

[Unknown]

I picked the most cursed comedy of the year. Friendship.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes, please, let's talk about it.

[Unknown]

I picked this one because I feel like it kind of located something. I'm a huge fan of comedy that I've been noticing that's been in the work of Nathan Fielder on the rehearsal, Seth Rogen with the studio and Friendship, which is like either they all have a similar line or a similar moment where these 40 plus year old men are like, what are the rules? And just kind of that all of these are about different things. But I'm like, oh, they're locating something that I'm seeing in my older friends and my Younger friends and just everybody in general, which is just like, wait, how do I not get canceled? But also, how do I get my friend group? And also how do I, like, not offend anybody? And it's just all of these comedies, and especially Friendship just located in such a funny, interesting, disturbing. It was almost a hard movie for me to watch.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Cause I've had to have talks with my friends who have been in relationships a long time, and their friends have moved away, and they're like, how do I make friends? And I'm just like, oh, we got the version of this movie in 2009 with Paul Rudd and Jason Siegel, and now we get the darker version with Tim Robinson.

[Zach Lowe]

So were you a Tim Robinson fan before this movie? Did you watch. I think you should leave.

[Unknown]

Yes. Huge Tim Robinson fan.

[Zach Lowe]

Detroiters. Did you watch Detroiters?

[Unknown]

Didn't watch Detroiters. Watched the Netflix show. And the funniest thing is locating where Tim Robinson is in the comedy firmament is when I was in lax, the last time I saw Tim Robinson with his family. And he's the type of celebrity where, like, a person who lives in Highland park, like me, he's just like, Tim Robinson. But, like, nobody noticed him. All I saw, it was like, a sketch. There was just a little old lady who didn't know how to use the airport kiosk to check out all of her stuff. And it's just like, Tim Robinson being like, no, you gotta do it. Like, do it like this. And his teenagers are just like. And no one's pointing at him. No one is like, you're Tim Robinson. It's just like, an old lady be like, fuck this guy. This is your view and that. It's interesting where I'm like, he is what, a top five comedian in the United States in terms of, like, fame and getting stuff made. But he could still walk through lax, who this guy is.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. His ordinariness is, like, kind of a feature. That's sort of the point of a lot of what he's doing. But you said that a lot of your friends are maybe experiencing some of this angst than men have in 2025.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, before we started recording, we were having a conversation about Charles's Charles weekend and the various, you know, social conundrums that you found yourself in and people not knowing how to act and people not picking the right places.

[Unknown]

I mean, I also. I went. What was. I had a friendship weekend where I had a male friend who was turning 40 who. Who doesn't drink as much. So he was Having like a house party where we were like singing karaoke. And then it was like by 10, 11, it was like all my 30 and 40 year old friends who are single and I'm just like, this is depressing. We're just fucking out of town, like getting fucked up. And that's how friendship felt. Because the moment when they're like, oh, we're gonna go see a marvel that is literally my life just in general, when I just meet like, let's say I have like a girlfriend, she brings her boyfriend. Oh, what are we talking about? Hey, you see Deadpool and Wolverine? I'm like, yeah, pretty good, pretty good. And I'm like, that's, that's what kind of being 30 forties is like starting to feel like.

[Zach Lowe]

So you do relate to this movie.

[Unknown]

I feel like I've been the Tim Robinson character, especially. Cause you knew when you hired me I was in New York, moved here.

[Zach Lowe]

This is what I'm gonna ask. You're a transplant, you have to make new friends.

[Unknown]

Making. No, like they tell you we have all these movies, but like making friends in your 30s is the wildest experience ever.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, walk us through what your experience is, because we did talk about this when we talked about the movie on the show. It's a fascinating thing. Men and women have to deal with this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. And I do think, I mean, I thought this was like a very funny movie, but I read it as a sociological text. So I'm with Charles. And it is very specifically about the challenges of men right now making friends. We actually do have a lot of how hard and miserable it is to have female friends movies. But you guys get your moment and it seems fraught. I feel for you, it's fraught, but.

[Unknown]

It'S also the intensity of two 30 plus year old men, or three or four. Finding someone this late in life that they connect with is such a, it's a relationship in itself. Because it's just like, like all of us have the same story. It was like, oh, well, my best friend is back in New York or in Chicago or they're having kids. And it's just like locating someone where it's like, oh, I can ask you to go to the movies with me, I can ask you to get a beer with me. And then when you have that first fight, it's like, it's the funniest thing. Cause all your friends are like, are you guys, do you need marriage counseling? Are you okay? And that's what this movie felt like where I was just like, oh, all fights of men at this age are that dumb, where it makes no sense. It's just like I broke some taboo. We tried to meld our friend groups together and you're just like, oh, we're not in college anymore. We can't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We can't do that. But also, we don't actually like talk about it with words. You know, we only talk about it through unspoken, like social rituals of ostracization.

[Zach Lowe]

And one of the funny things in this movie is that there is one conversation that Paul Rudd has with Tim Robinson when he's basically like officially breaking up with him, right? He comes to the door and he confronts him and he's like, we had some fun, but it's over. And that was a very resonant moment for me. Not because I've been broken up with as a friend, but very quick to slip that you're the one breaking.

[Unknown]

Are you the one breaking up?

[Zach Lowe]

Are you the Paul Rudd? I probably will more just like quietly ghost away over time. That's really more my move. But making new friends in my 40s at least is the closest I will ever get to dating. Like, I haven't really been dating in 20 plus years. So I don't the rituals of do I text you or do you text me or do I put myself out there and say, let's make a plan that like the anxiety that comes from that this movie is like that, you know, to a tee, like at 10 the whole time. And Tim Robinson also, you know, I mean, look at the man's face right there. Like, no one believes in that confidence. You know what I mean? It's like an absence of confidence that is rippling through, which I think is pretty representative of how a lot of guys feel right now.

[Unknown]

And it's just. It's this awkward feeling of. I was thinking about the movie that Paul Rudd was in, I Love youe man, which was like. That was at a time in like the Judd Apatow type where it's just like. And even Jackass. And I remember watching that movie as a kid and having two thoughts. I'm like, fucking 40 year olds don't have friends. They have to make new friends. I'm never gonna be there. But also that feeling of like, we are no longer in that era of comedy where it's like, Will Ferrell, we're gonna be boys forever. Like, our buddy comedies aren't even like that. Our stepbrothers, our superbads that like, hey guys, we're teenage forever and we're never growing up. Friendship to me Feels like a kind of wrinkle in that. Which is just like, we're not teenagers anymore, but we're also not adults. There's no actual. Everything is broken down. The Internet has broken anything down.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it's. It feels of the moment. And we've all forgotten how to speak to each other or how to be people.

[Unknown]

Like, even his friends, like, when he's at work and they're just like, what are. I've had that feeling before where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go hang out with my friends. And I'm like, I don't end up in a garage, but I do end up. We all just end up at this third space where we're like, all right, can we go? Are we just gonna watch you play the drums? And that is like. That, to me, isn't just a male friendship thing, to your point. That is like, oh, we don't know how to, like, hang out. We don't know how to, like, go to a bar and talk to each other and have interests. It's like the only interest we have is like, Marvel fucking movies.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a great pick. And any lingering feelings or concerns about men that you have in the aftermath of this movie.

[Unknown]

I've never been after watching Friendship.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, you know, I do now watch it in the context of raising the next generation. So that's pretty troubling. And, you know, everybody. Everything I do is to try to avoid a situation where my sons are in a garage screaming, this is a Marvel spoiler. Like Marvel spoiler free zone. No Marvel spoilers.

[Zach Lowe]

Sorry. It's coming. It's coming.

[Amanda Dobbins]

On the other hand, were they all to sing my boo a cappella with.

[Zach Lowe]

Their closest friends, you would enjoy that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I would feel a sense of accomplishment. I would feel a connection.

[Unknown]

So I sang thinking about you at a 40 year old party and it went terrible.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Do you have that falsetto?

[Unknown]

I mean, I think I have the falsetto. The women at the party were just like, turn this shit off. Oh, my gosh. But, yeah, Friendship.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[Zach Lowe]

Great pick. Thank you, Charles.

[Unknown]

Hell, yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

So honored to be joined by the face of the ringer, Mallory Rubin, as recently decreed by Van Lathan, Rachel, Lindsay, and frankly, all of America.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right?

[Zach Lowe]

Wouldn't you agree?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

Mel, how do you feel?

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel that we all know the truth, which is that every single person alive thought it should be Chris, except for Rachel. So I'd like to say thank you to Rachel.

[Zach Lowe]

True story. I ran into Rachel on the way in today. She's returned to the United States of America. And she was unashamed of her decision making. And I think she feels good about making a point to Chris that he's not all he's always cracked up to be.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wow.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, there's some flaws in the design, and you filled those flaws. Mel.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Was this. Was this the same conversation where we were briefly confused as the same person because of the hair length?

[Zach Lowe]

Because you were white women, I think is why.

[Van Lathan]

Sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Listen, I've. I've been saying it since little tiny headshots were first introduced on the ringer a decade ago and since our voices started making it out into the world. Being confused for Amanda Dobbins is the honor of a lifetime.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I feel similarly, except for when people have no complaints, come in and yell at me about sports takes that I don't really understand, you know, or being like, you got this wrong. The shield that someone uses in something, and I'm like, bam. You know, I don't. I don't know. Take it up with male.

[Joanna Robinson]

Every now and then I get some very confusing messages about a celebrity culture thing that I. I'm like, did I have a stroke? And I have no recollection of having said this in a public forum, which is entirely possible. I was just complaining to you both before we started about my back pain. So I guess I'm at that age. And then I realized, oh, no, this must be something Amanda said on jam session.

[Zach Lowe]

You will always be two beautiful individual snowflakes to me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you so much.

[Zach Lowe]

Specific and dissolving in my hand at all times.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, that's how we both feel about it.

[Grace Fennessy]

So.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. But I would like to thank. I would like to. To thank Van and Rachel, the thought warriors and every. Everyone else who's just waiting a year for. For Chris to receive the trophy that we all know he deserves. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Hablas to Deutsch.

[Sean Fennessy]

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[Zach Lowe]

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[Sean Fennessy]

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[Zach Lowe]

Start speaking with Babbel today.

[Sean Fennessy]

Get up to 55% off your Babel subscription right now at babbel.com Spotify spelled B A B-B E L.com Spotify rules.

[Zach Lowe]

And restrictions may apply. Okay, Mel. Best movies of the year. Good movie year. Are you enjoying it? Bad movie year. You're hating it. You're having a blast.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm having a great time. Yeah. I have been to the movie theater a lot recently, which I know, you know, you guys both know me very well. I'm a real, like. Unless absolutely forced to do the contrary, I'll stay at home in pajamas for as long as humanly possible. But it's been really fun to go to the theater and, you know, explore some different confections at the concession stand and test out some different screens. I've been on a real Dolby kick. That's been fun. I'm having a blast with Dolby. Listen, I managed at the last second to snag. And after texting you guys bitching about the fact that I could not find such a ticket, I managed to snag. In response to the urgent request from Megan Schuster to join her on the Ringer F1 show to talk about F1, the movie. I managed to snag an IMAX ticket. It's just fun to go to the movies and see movies on a big screen. That's how I feel about it.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, movies are back. Yeah, they're really back. And it's just wonderful.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And one way, you know, that they're back is that we are now regularly getting screenshots of seating charts.

[Joanna Robinson]

I've been sending a lot of those.

[Amanda Dobbins]

At various theaters around Los Angeles. And I'm like, oh, okay. So if that's where this Mallory is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here'S what I'm prepared to say right now. I am willing to stop sending you screenshots of various open or taken seats. And in exchange from now through next March, we'll only text you about Project Hail Mary.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Listen, open. We, like, I can't even tell you. So we saw that at Cinemacon. Okay, let me set the scene for you by saying that it was an evening presentation in Las Vegas. And so I had had exactly two negronis, and then I sat down in my seat, and then it was a cold open. No one came out, no introduced. No one introduced anything. They just. They knew they had it so hard that they just project, you know, they gave us the trailer for Project Hail Mary. And then Ryan Gosling was there in front of us upon the stage.

[Joanna Robinson]

Incredible.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I, like, I felt my soul leave my body.

[Zach Lowe]

Back in April. We were not back at the movies when we went there. And then when they showed that, I was like, I think this is the moment when we turn the corner, and lo and behold, we have turned the corner and we have good movies now, which is very exciting. So what movie did you choose Mal.

[Joanna Robinson]

I chose a very. Just, gentle, calm, subtle.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. A quiet family drama for all family.

[Joanna Robinson]

Film called 28 Years later, the latest from Danny Boyle and Alex Garland back together again, reunited in the 28 verse. I thought this movie was absolutely sensational. I loved it and I loved the pod that the two of you and Chris did about it. I had a blast talking to Joe about it. I. I really love 28 days later, as many do. I have fun every so often watching the second film in the franchise that I think has largely been rendered moot.

[Sean Fennessy]

By this third installment.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I don't know how often I'll be revisiting it in the future, but I really just like. I love Alex Garland movies because every now and then, one of them I consider just, like an absolute genuine masterpiece. Ex machina, et cetera. And even the Garland's stories, whether it's something that he's directing, showrunning, writing that don't work for me, that I don't find myself enjoying and that maybe even I am, like, actively in some way repelled by, they just take root in me and lead me to, like, such a contemplative state that I really. I admire basically everything that he does as a result of that. And I just thought that this was, like, a visually stunning return to this world. Great cast. Alfie Williams is Spike, like, holy. I had had absolutely no idea that young Spike was going to be basically the main character in the movie, and I thought that he was sensational. Ralph finds one of the great loves of my life. Like, what an absolute joy to be in the bone temple with him always, in more ways than one. And I just thought that this movie was exceptional, genuinely exceptional.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know what? Listen, you don't miss him. You don't miss a step.

[Zach Lowe]

Mal goes to the bone temple. Love it. Thanks. How did I not see that coming? Yeah, we love this movie, too. And I would. I'm kind of surprised a little bit by the overwhelming positive reaction to it. I know that there's a lot of players involved that we have a lot of warm feelings towards, but it is quite an audacious movie. I mean, it's a real tonal clash. It's really violent. It's really crazy. The. The. Even the zombie stuff is quite intense and, you know, explicit, I would say. There's Zombie Dick, there's Zombie Birth, there's all kinds of things that we're kind of like we're entering the final stage of zombie storytelling, I feel, in some ways, I also think, Mal, you covered the Last of Us really closely. And I wonder if this movie operates in kind of like an opposite emotional tenor to that TV series, which I think people were kind of like a little bit more mixed on the second season. And so the, like the, the thrilling thrash of 28 years later might have been a little bit of a bomb in the aftermath of that season. What do you think?

[Joanna Robinson]

Great point and question. I mean, I think that like, in general, in any sort of. I know that the, the filmmakers would not want us to use the term zombie, but in any sort of dystopian detail featuring the infected, you know, the. You're going to hit at some point, inevitably, I think, think a moment where you are confronting the fact that the real monsters are other people. Right? Like, that's. That is a core aspect of this type of genre storytelling. And so, you know, as is always the case with any type of story, the degree of success is going to be determined by the execution and how compelled we are by the relationships inside of the story. Now in 28 days later, when we watch, like Killian Murphy's character, Jim, Wake up, that is very. That's another type of story I really love. Like. Like, that is more about found family, right? Rooting yourself in an unexpected relationship so that you can make it forward another day. I would say that that is like more akin ultimately to how we enter last of us 28 years later. Everything that happens on Holy island, the causeway, obviously, again, this is just like visually astonishing as a place to set this film. But that question about then, like, what community have you built and what are you trying to protect and why and what do the inhabitants of that. Inhabitants of that world even like, understand about it? I thought that was. There are plenty of comps there, I think, between Last of Us, whether it's the stretch in Jackson, Wyoming or elsewhere where, like, the question of what your role in sustaining a community is and then how your perspective shifts when you walk outside the walls, I thought that was also amazing. Like, as you noted, this is a. This is a deeply explicit and violent story. But on some level it is like a coming of age story. And it is a story about revelations and awakenings. Whether that is Spike having to confront, you know, his father being a liar, or confront who or what might be waiting just a few strides further across a given cresting hill. When your perspective is that locked into one place and that place equates to these ability to sustain human life. Like, that's just a really fascinating setting and dynamic for a film. And then I thought, like, the other thing about the thing that I think is not similar between this at all and Last of Us is, like, in Last of Us, not much of a spoiler. This is the premise of the story. Like, the cordyceps infection just takes over the world. And that's what it's like. That's it to open this movie. And again, this is like some of the. Where the retconning to the second film takes place because that ends with, like, wait, you're Paris. And it's like, fuck.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, no.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Whoops.

[Sean Fennessy]

And the idea.

[Joanna Robinson]

The idea here that the rest of the world has just quarantined the United Kingdom and left everybody there to, like, either figure it out or not, I found so unbelievably harrowing and in some ways much more disturbing than seeing, like, a spinal column ripped out of a head, a body. It was just like what that says about people in humanity was. That's, like real Garland stuff to me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the current geopolitical state of the world. It has both. Right? It has Spinal Columns and it has ideas. And, you know, I do think some people still just go to the movies for the spinal columns and for a zombie dick. And if you go for that shout.

[Joanna Robinson]

Out, Samson, great zombie dick, you are.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Getting your money's worth. And then maybe you leave with. With, you know, some expanded ideas about, you know, how we live in a society.

[Zach Lowe]

But we do live in a society.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We live in a society.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, we do. Alex Farley movies do be saying that. They do be saying we live in a society, you know, and they have incredible foresight, but we don't know how.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And we don't always understand.

[Zach Lowe]

They don't always give us the conclusions to those societies. But, yeah, I mean, this is right near the top for me in terms of the first six months of the year. This is probably my second favorite movie of the year right now. And it's a great pick. And I'm just, you know, as somebody whose origin story of Los Angeles is very neatly tied up in the movie Sunshine, it's very excited. I'm like, I'm very excited that they're still working together and that this is still something that, you know, they can make possible at the movies. And I'm quite curious to see if we get. We're definitely getting the second one in January. The third one is a little tbd based on the performance of the movie, I guess.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the second one is also with respect to Nita Costa, not Danny Boyle and Alex Garland working together. Correct. And it's not, you know, two people bringing out the best in each other.

[Zach Lowe]

So let's enjoy this while we have it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly.

[Zach Lowe]

Mal, great pick. Great to see you. Listen to Mal on House of R, the F1 podcast here at the Ringer. What else are you on these days?

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, who knows? Who knows? Just waiting to be invited to chat with my friends on Big Pick in the Watch, basically.

[Zach Lowe]

Have you been on the Watch? When was the last time you were on the Watch?

[Joanna Robinson]

Great question. Something for Chris to reflect on.

[Zach Lowe]

Sounds like an Andy problem. I think Andy's blocking you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You want to come on Jam Session before the summer's out? You want to bring all your. The celebrity DMs to the table? We can talk it out.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sure, Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would be thrilled. I don't know if I'm a queen to come on Jam Session, but I would be delighted. I would be delighted to try. And it's always a pleasure and a thrill to be with you both. Thanks for having me. I look forward to being back at the movies with you both and with Jack o' Connell at the start of next year.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, no spoilers. Thanks, Mel.

[Joanna Robinson]

Bye, guys.

[Zach Lowe]

Mean Pod Guy returns. Adam Namid, our pal, critic par excellence, is here to talk about the best movie of the year so far. So do you want to share any of your, like, runners up before you give us your pick?

[Unknown]

I think I saw one of them the other day, wrote about it for the site, which is 28 years later. What a. What a. What an impressive piece of filmmaking.

[Zach Lowe]

Pretty darn good.

[Unknown]

I. I know you guys have talked over it, and there'll be more to say about it as the year goes on, but it's very moving and, you know, goofy and fun, and I did not. I guess I knew Danny Boyle had it in him because these exact people did make this exact movie, or a version of it 20 years ago, but I didn't know they still had it in him.

[Zach Lowe]

It's really good little redemption for your guy, Alex Garland, who you've been just beaten up on over the years.

[Unknown]

You know what? I think it's just about the best script he's written. And I will say, not to Alex Garland, but about the script. That is a smart, emotional, resonant piece of screenwriting, and it deals with aspects of history and culture in ways that are very smart. And I just have to. Gotta give it up.

[Zach Lowe]

Very happy to hear you say that. Okay, well, what did you choose and how did you decide on the film that you chose?

[Unknown]

Well, I had some taken away from me by other guests talking. What's covered and then the only reason I'm not gonna talk about the Shrouds by David Cronenberg is we talked about it already and I don't want the bit to be. He only talks about the Toronto filmmaker. For the record, if I'm making a. I think I'm doing a half year list for this site, you know, I mean, that's the movie of the year and probably will be for the end of the year for me. But we've, we've done that. So, you know, whether it's 20 years later or the Shrouds or Friendship, you know, I. These are movies that I've kind of talked about on the site already. So I wanted to talk about one and to cheat, you know, a second movie, which I think I'm even more interested to argue with you about.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Unknown]

That even if I wrote about them elsewhere, I didn't write about for Ringer. So my real pick, which I think will also be on my year end 10 and just by absolutely amazing filmmakers. Caught by the Tides by the Chinese director Xia Zhanke, one of the great contemporary filmmakers who's repurposed and reused and remixed 20 years of some of this, I guess behind the scenes footage or alternate takes or unused scenes. It's really interesting to read about what the material is, but he's taken it and made an entirely new film out of it, which shows in some ways how similar his movies are narratively. He's interested in movies about, you know, couples that break up or become separated and one kind of pursues the other across the country. He uses the same actors, but it's also a film that, because it's essentially shot in real time, has been compared to people. And it's, it's a different kind of project, but it's like Boyhood, the Linklater movie, where you just simply see time at work over a 20 year period. And so it's not production design, it's not a period piece. It's just all the actual gradations of fashion and music and technology. And it narrates this incredible history of a country kind of changing, where even if in the foreground you have this very minimal plot of a woman sort of trying to find her boyfriend who has left her in this small town and kind of abandoned her, and she's sort of chasing after him, you know, the plot is very simple. It's almost in a way, a silent film. There's very little dialogue in it. A lot of the story is told through text, but the background is sort of the Protagonist. And even just the way the third part of the film shows you 21st century technology and the way that the formats, that the movie itself is being shot on the different levels of film and digital video, like every second of it is just completely compelling on that level. So yeah, I mean, a very well reviewed film, played at festivals last year, played at Cannes. It's definitely a kind of art house pick. But you know, I think Jah's career is sort of magnificent and seeing him revisit that career in the space of this one kind of shape shifting time traveling movie is gonna make my year end list. You saw it and liked it?

[Zach Lowe]

I haven't seen it yet. It has somehow eluded me through all the festival season. And I want to say that one of the very first movies that we talked about on this show was Ash's Purest White. And this is his first movie since that movie. That was 2018, right around when you started coming on. And I love that film and I've seen most of his movies in the 21st century, but I definitely have not seen the early films and not even the early work when he started shooting this movie. So the thing I wanted to ask you about, for people who are listening at home and thinking about this, it would be very easy to start with A Touch of Sin or Mountains Made Depart. He's made a number of acclaimed movies in the last 15 years. Can you watch this new film and feel like you're getting it? Feel like you're getting its depth and a deeper understanding of it? If you haven't seen the last five.

[Unknown]

Genre movies, It's a good question. Because honestly, kind of not kind of yes, kind of no. Because the way he shoots and the way he frames, let's say landscapes, is inherently compelling. And Zhao Tao, his consistent star, his creative collaborator, his life partner, one of the most beautiful and accomplished and expressive actresses I've ever seen. I mean, just watching her is amazing. So I don't know if someone would watch Caught the Tides if they were to watch Caught by the Tides fresh. I don't think they'd be bored. I think that it has that narrative hook, it has this underlying emotionalism. It, it is compelling. Even if you haven't seen his other movies, if you understand that it's shot over a 20 year period, you'll be alert to all that stuff. But the nostalgia and the sense of just seeing an entire career in an artistic lifetime kind of distilled into two hours, I think that would be missing. So what I would say to your question is it's kind of a hard movie maybe to watch cold. But that means everyone should just go watch a couple of other genre movies and then you can watch this one. And in that case you can never run out of good ones. I mean, they're all. Most of them are amazing. Pickpocket the World Unknown Pleasures. There's a great movie he made in 2006 called Still Life, which is about the Three Gorges Dam project and a big chunk of Caught by the Tides. I think the biggest chunk of the movie is footage from that period in 2006 where you essentially just see this entire community on the shores of the Yangtze river just basically wash away. And it's not a natural disaster, it's a man made construction project. And if you've ever just wondered, well, what does displacement look like? This is documentary footage of what that kind of wide scale displacement looks like. And it has an eerie feeling of a kind of future prophecy as well. Three Gorges Climate Dam isn't climate change exactly, but it gives a little snapshot of what some things might look like going forward. And you know, he just, he's so attuned to the way that history works. The title of the movie is about history. It's about that idea of being caught up in this kind of larger, almost kind of oceanic pattern. And you know, parts of the movie are very funny. It actually has my favorite use of like robots and AI in any movie that I've seen this year. There's a whole passage toward the end that's kind of like a live action version of Wall E, a live action kind of documentary version of Wall E. And the whole last part was shot during COVID as well. So again, reality never kind of totally disappears in his. In his work. And I think this got the widest distribution of any of his movies because it came out via sideshow. So like they were pushing it. You know, he traveled with the film, he did Q&As in the US it had a good trailer. So while it's never going to be as big a movie on this kind of year end or half year end list is talking about, you know, F1. It is possible that people could see it. It's not asking too much of people to seek it out and find it when it's on streaming.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a great recommendation. I would imagine it's going to come to the Criterion Channel at some point. Probably in the fall, I would guess. Yeah. And it may be still kicking around in some art houses out there.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I mean I think Criterion's a good guess. And again, I think one of the nice things about this show is you talk about movies of all kinds. You're always very, you know, conscientious about telling people to see, you know, that which is not all that immediately or instantly available. So I hope that people who are listening are motivated and curious to check it out. The other movie I want to talk to you about is one that you gave two and a half stars on letterboxd and I like far more than you.

[Zach Lowe]

Let's fight. What is it?

[Unknown]

No, let's discuss. Which is Joan Colet Serra's Woman in the Yard.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

Which I like a lot. And I know that it's a. I try not to say that it's a bit. Because tourism isn't a bit. Like if a tourism is. Is. Is. Is a problem, then, you know, we have a big problem. But I love this filmmaker and I like this way more than his Netflix baggage claim movie, which I thought was kind of fun and impersonal. This one I thought was really emotional, expressive, kind of formally gorgeous horror. And you, my friend, were not on board. We're not really. You weren't fully on board the, The Joan, the J, the JCS Express on this one.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, broadly speaking, I'm a big fan of jcs. He was on this show some years ago. I liked talking to him. He's obviously an incredibly dynamic, formal filmmaker. He's got great aesthetics. He tries things in studio movies that. That very few filmmakers would consider trying. And he's like a. He's an assignment director. You know, he. He's someone you call when you've got a nifty script that is very fungible for somebody with some big ideas. I just thought the Woman in the Yard was yet another studio horror programmer shot in one location that was like a little bit more bereft of ideas than I wanted it to be and a little bit too stuck on the kind of. Of post trauma narrative train that just way too much horror is attached to right now. And so it just didn't feel like I liked the moves he was making in the movie and I felt like a lot of the strategy was immersive, but I didn't think the script was very good. And I'm usually a very big Daniel Deadweiler fan, but I just thought that character was like deeply one dimensional. And so I was just a little bit down on it. As you know, I don't really talk too much about movies that I'm really down on, even especially from filmmakers Who I actually broadly like their work. But jcs, I don't know. It's been kind of a. Kind of a weird five or six years for me. He got linked up with the Rock. I didn't really like what came out of that. I also was not huge on Carry On. I thought it was fine.

[Unknown]

Also an assignment movie.

[Zach Lowe]

Very much. Very much.

[Unknown]

And it wore that assignment movie thing, I think. Maybe not intentionally, but it was kind of a movie about someone who was trying to buy into the program.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Unknown]

It's like, I really want to be a cop. And it's like, okay. I mean, I don't know that that's what I want to see a movie about at the moment, but I thought what I liked about Women in the yard. And it's interesting. It's not to disagree, but just to develop the idea of Deadweiler, there was an interview, I think Robert Sweeney did, a great critic, with the writer of the film. And I did not know how invested Deadweiler was in the project. Like, very much a driving kind of creative force within it. And I believe that it's her artwork in the film with the character. I mean, it's not really a movie about vocation. It's about a woman in the yard that haunts a family. But, I mean, her character is a painter. And there's a lot of this kind of the art direction of the film or the mise en scene of the movie is dominated by these paintings. And something about that. When I heard about Tied to what I felt was something pretty inhabited about Deadweiler's performance. And I loved the way that she interacted with the other actress within the cast. The kind of physical interaction they have towards the end of the movie. This idea of a manifestation of gr. Grief or kind of impulses. I don't want to spoil the movie, but I just loved watching the way he choreographed the bodies and the physicality of these actresses in the home stretch. I thought, more than scary, it was kind of in a horror register that I respond to, which it was kind of like a melancholy horror movie. It's a very sad movie.

[Zach Lowe]

It is a very sad movie. It is notably shot by Pavel Pogoreski, who shot the last three Ari Astro movies. And you can feel it. There's a sequence in the Attic where I'm like. Like that's part of what I was holding against it. I'm like, this is kind of just hereditary for Blumhouse, you know, Like, I don't know that it was as developed as I wanted it to be.

[Unknown]

Adam I think. No, I think that. I mean, it's fair. I wouldn't have brought it up if I didn't think, you know, I read your very smart letterboxd piece. That's why I brought it up. But when we're talking about form, I mean, I think for me, the form in this one carries, you know, and. And I think it is true that, you know, in some ways he's kind of an impersonal director and assignment based director, but to me, he connected to something in that character and that performance and that idea maybe of using a very expressive visual form to make a movie about a character who is sort of trying to channel something through their own kind of artwork. I mean, I don't want to make ridiculous claims for it, but with the exception of the Boyle film, of all the studio horror I've watched this year, I think I liked it the most. Although I had a very good time Last Night at M3GAN 2.0. Haven't seen it yet, which is basically Terminator 2 for the M3GAN movies, and a lot of fun. The audience I saw with was going bonkers. They thought it was hilarious.

[Zach Lowe]

That's great to hear. I'm gonna see it this weekend, so I'm happy about that.

[Unknown]

That's my report from the trenches.

[Zach Lowe]

Thank you very much. I'll have you know JCS is next making a remake of Cliffhanger starring Lily James.

[Unknown]

So one and. And in between there too, though, there's something called Play Dead. I saw. Oh, Juliet Gariepi from our favorite film Red Rooms.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Posted that she just made a movie with jcs. So I'm like, that's encouraging as well. That is the other thing I like about the guy. He just keeps working.

[Zach Lowe]

He does, he does. He's working tirelessly to get back to the extraordinary highs of Orphan. And he may never get there, but may he try forever.

[Unknown]

I love Orphan very much. When I saw orphan Back in 2009, the statute of limitations on spoilers for Orphan, I think is over, Right. We can say what happens at the end. So, like, when Vera Farmiga, like, kicks her kid into the ice and kills her or whatever, someone in the audience yelled, and I will never forget it. This woman yelled. That's fucking right in the middle of the movie theater. And I was just like, yeah, that's cinema, Adam. That's cinema. That's what I want to yell anytime at a movie.

[Zach Lowe]

Thank you, my friend. Appreciate you chipping in on this one.

[Unknown]

Absolutely, my pleasure. Good to see you.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, we're Joined by a very special guest. It's my little sister, Grace Fennesee. Grace, what's up?

[Grace Fennessy]

Nothing much. I'm excited to be here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This isn't your first time on the podcast, but it might be your first YouTube.

[Grace Fennessy]

Oh, yeah, it's my first time on camera.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Welcome to hell.

[Zach Lowe]

How do you feel about it?

[Grace Fennessy]

I liked being in a room with no camera, but it's new and exciting.

[Zach Lowe]

You are a full 20 some odd years younger than us, so you're in slightly better standing visually. Audio. We'll see. Do you have takes? Do you have strong feelings about the year in movies in 2025? Okay.

[Grace Fennessy]

I looked at my letterbox and I've seen like 12 of the new movies from 2025.

[Zach Lowe]

So how do you determine what you want to go see at this stage of your life? You just graduated from college. Congratulations.

[Grace Fennessy]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Zach Lowe]

You are a very avid movie watcher.

[Grace Fennessy]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

Which your followers on letterboxd will know. But going to the movie theater, how do you choose?

[Grace Fennessy]

It's kind of just who will see what with me? Because I will see kind of anything in theaters. So I have an AMC membership, so that's my, like, I got it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Love it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No free ads, but yeah, yeah.

[Grace Fennessy]

So it's.

[Zach Lowe]

I do too.

[Grace Fennessy]

I have to convince people to go, but I will see anything. I love sitting and watching trailers and getting excited for every movie that's coming up.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you find that your friends are mostly not interested in going to the movies at this point? Like, does your boyfriend want to go to the movies? Like, how does it work?

[Grace Fennessy]

My boyfriend goes to, like, any movie I want to see because he's. He's good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But yeah, those are the rules.

[Grace Fennessy]

Yeah. Kind of have to. But certain friends I have to, like, really pull to go see movies.

[Zach Lowe]

What do they watch?

[Grace Fennessy]

Well, I got one of my best friends to go see Materialist with me because I was like, she would like a romance movie, but when I took her to see Mickey 17, she was not about that.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, interesting.

[Grace Fennessy]

So it kind of just depends on the genre of each person.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you have to sell them on the story is genre enough?

[Grace Fennessy]

I think I have to sell on Story two or, like, who's in it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Who's a draw?

[Grace Fennessy]

I think Pedro is a big draw for some people.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. That's Pedro Pascal for those of you watching at home. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

She's on a first name basis with Pedro.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Pedro.

[Zach Lowe]

Pedro has a big summer coming up.

[Grace Fennessy]

Best thing that could have happened.

[Zach Lowe]

Amanda blasphemed his good name. Materialist.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was Very clear, both on the podcast and to Grace last night at dinner that I respect Pedro Pascal as a person. I just did not think he worked in Materialists.

[Zach Lowe]

He is also gonna be in Eddington and Fantastic Four First Steps. And he just concluded his run on the Last of Us, season two. And next year he'll be in the Mandalorian and Grogu. And he has something else. What am I forgetting? He's freaking everywhere and he's your fave and he's like a 50 year old man. What's going on with that?

[Grace Fennessy]

Well, I'm eating it up. That he's everywhere. That is the best thing that could have happened. I watched him first in the Last of Us and I was like, wow, this guy's amazing.

[Zach Lowe]

That's how you connected with him in the first place. Okay.

[Grace Fennessy]

And then after that, I was like, I need to watch everything he's in. So I didn't it get.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But yeah, I was gonna say, does the Mandalorian count when you can't see him?

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Grace Fennessy]

I did watch that show because I was like, I need to see more of him. But no, it actually wasn't him, but presence essence.

[Zach Lowe]

So a Pedro movie is not at the top of your list. Some movies were taken before you could choose your favorite from this year. So, like, you couldn't take Sinners, for example. Someone took Sinners. Sinners was taken from Everyone by Rob Mahoney.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, we've been getting a lot of feedback on that.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I figured that one. He's a thief. I think most people on this episode would have taken Sinners.

[Grace Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

You mentioned Mickey 17.

[Grace Fennessy]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

That was on your long list. You liked it? I liked it Maybe even more than we did.

[Grace Fennessy]

Yeah. I wouldn't say it was my favorite, but I did enjoy it. I had a good time. I left and I was like, all right, good movie.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, what else was on your list?

[Grace Fennessy]

Materialists. I feel like that's not a popular take, but.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, there's been a lot of discussion about it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think we're coming back around. You can lead us there. You want to speak to the people.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Grace Fennessy]

So one of my problems with seeing people's reaction to it was everyone was saying it was marketed as a rom com. I didn't think that. So that wasn't a problem for me when I left. And they were like, it wasn't a rom com.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Grace Fennessy]

It was a romance movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Grace Fennessy]

So I think that was one of my main problems. Also Broke man propaganda is people who are very angry about that, where they're like, why'd she end up with the broke guy? Cause she didn't love Pedro Pascal, Right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Because they had zero chemistry. But that's okay. Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Is that a feature or a bug in the film?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think it can be both. In this case, where I think maybe he could have communicated. They could have communicated some other things along with the lack of chemistry.

[Zach Lowe]

But I had never heard the phrase poverty propaganda before this film came out. And then when you came over the other day and it was one of the first things you said to me during the trip, that you were just like, this broke man propaganda thing, I don't get it. I felt relieved because when I saw poverty propaganda, it's like, is that an active line of discourse in online culture right now? I know I'm 100 years old, but are there people who are like, it's very important for you to love a poor person? I get it. It's like justification for being in a relationship. I understand the line of thought, but is that an active discussion point among people when they're choosing their partners?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Listen, I just don't think you should go on TikTok, you know, and I didn't.

[Zach Lowe]

I didn't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's like, what the. You know, the girlies are out here making names for them, coining terms. You know, the discourse has gone all sorts of ways. So, sure, there are people, like, posting about anything that under the sun at this point.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you. Do you. Do you think about the wealth of your partner?

[Grace Fennessy]

I mean, I feel like the problem with everyone's reaction with it is I wouldn't want to date Chris Evans in that movie where he. He really has nothing. Like, has no. Zero money. So I understand that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, nobody wants to go to that apartment.

[Grace Fennessy]

Yeah, that's. That's my nightmare personally.

[Zach Lowe]

But. But what about it? As a proud, independent woman, you could also help evolve his circumstances.

[Grace Fennessy]

Yeah, I think that's, like.

[Zach Lowe]

That seems reasonable.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. But she's only making $80,000 a year.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, we know that doesn't make sense. That was one of my primary issues with the film, is that she's got a lovely apartment in New York and she makes $80,000 a year as a matchmaker. I'm not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the fashion does not also align with that.

[Zach Lowe]

She's very well dressed. Yeah. Okay. So materialist is not your pick.

[Grace Fennessy]

It's not my pick.

[Zach Lowe]

No. Though you liked it.

[Grace Fennessy]

I did like it, but I wouldn't say, like, top of 20, 25.

[Zach Lowe]

When you first started coming on the show, you were deep, deep, deep in the mcu. Yes. That was your favorite thing, I think, in the world. That was peak time, and I felt like it has slipped away from you a little bit as it has slipped in culture. However, what movie did you pick?

[Grace Fennessy]

I chose Thunderbolts because I think Thunderbolts is a return to form for Marvel.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, so what does that mean?

[Grace Fennessy]

So I've been kind of out on Marvel since, like, no Way Home.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, but Amanda's favorite is that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's the three of them.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And you didn't like that?

[Grace Fennessy]

No, I did love that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, but after that.

[Grace Fennessy]

After that is kind of when it started. Every once in a while, you get, like, one movie where I was like, hey, that's pretty good. This, I think, is hopeful because I think it picked up on mistakes that they made in the past of introducing characters and then never seeing them again. But these characters, they were like, okay, let's bring back the ones people like, the ones people didn't like, and put them together. And I think it made a good team, if that makes sense.

[Zach Lowe]

What was your favorite part?

[Grace Fennessy]

Favorite part, I think, was the dynamic. If you follow me on letterboxd, you know, I'm a big fan of Found Family, and that was, like, the whole trope of the movie.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Grace Fennessy]

So that really did it for me, but interesting.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, so when you say if you follow me on letterboxd, you mean you have lists of my favorite found family movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You don't follow her on letterboxd.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I do, but I've never seen you publish a list. I've only seen you log movies.

[Grace Fennessy]

No, but if a movie is a found Family, that's probably in my reviews. Like, it's a found family movie.

[Unknown]

Got it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You're not doing the work, Sean.

[Grace Fennessy]

You're not reading my reviews.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm doing the work by having you here right now to communicate about your love for found family movies. I had a very similar reaction to Thunderbolts. And you were more positive on it than I think even you expected to be.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that Marvel maybe never had me, so then they lost me a very long time ago. But I thought it was far and away. Just. Just technically, it was competent and enjoyable in a way that most of the recent movies have just kind of been.

[Zach Lowe]

Impenetrable to me as a movie fan. Do you follow the fact that the movie was considered somewhat of a disappointment at the box office and then the kind of, like, ramifications of things like that? Or do you just not care about those things?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Grace Fennessy]

See, that actually did make me disappointed. Cause I was like, it should have done better, but people are already out on it.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Grace Fennessy]

They're like, ah, Marvel movie, don't care. But I'm like, no, this was a good one. Like, it deserved better.

[Zach Lowe]

Did you see that with friends?

[Grace Fennessy]

I saw it with my boyfriend.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Grace Fennessy]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

What did he think?

[Grace Fennessy]

He loved it. We walked out and we're like, that was so great. We just talked about the entire car at home.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Would he go on his own or.

[Grace Fennessy]

Yes, for sure.

[Zach Lowe]

He would have seen it on his own.

[Grace Fennessy]

I had to tell him to wait for me.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh.

[Grace Fennessy]

Cause I was still at school and I was coming back. I was like, wait. Wait until I come home.

[Joanna Robinson]

You have to.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. So on the drive here to the office today, we were going through the checklist of young, hot male actors and like, who are you in on? Who are you out on?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Great. Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

So we were talking about, you know, out on a. Lordy, right?

[Grace Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Interesting. Why?

[Grace Fennessy]

My introduction to him was the Kissing Booth movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. Okay. I get this with a lot of people slightly older than you and Austin Butler, where they're like, yeah, yeah, we saw Disney, so we don't need it.

[Grace Fennessy]

So now I'm not like, you're heartthrob.

[Zach Lowe]

And you feel the same way about Austin Butler. Not one of your guys. You love Timmy.

[Grace Fennessy]

Love Timmy, sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Who does that?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I love Timmy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Who else did I mention? Mentioned Joseph Quinn. You were kind of Anne on Joseph Quinn.

[Grace Fennessy]

I feel like he just keeps appearing and I'm not like, oh, I hate that guy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But he has found, like, a stickiness. Yeah, I agree.

[Zach Lowe]

So the person I want to ask about then relates to Thunderbolts is Sentry himself, Lewis Pullman.

[Grace Fennessy]

See, I actually. I don't think I knew him before that movie.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Grace Fennessy]

Hearing the name, I thought I did, but whatever. But I thought he was a great introduction. I'm going back to the team itself where it was so many different characters. Where you have Bucky Barnes. Well loved people were going to see that movie just for him. Then you have other characters, like Yelena, newer character, but has developed a fan base.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And Florence Pio also.

[Grace Fennessy]

Oh, of course, of course. But then you're introducing new characters and, like, characters that maybe you didn't like. And I think that worked really well. So even the Bob character, who's just a sweet little guy compared to all these assholes. Like, I think that was a great addition.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Bob is his human character. He's also Bob in Top Maverick, so that's confusing for me.

[Zach Lowe]

He Is. And I do think that that was semi purposeful, even though that character was originally supposed to be played by Steven Yeun. And then he came out of the movie and Lewis Pullman went in. And then Lewis Pullman also started dating.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Kaia Gerber, which I think what we're doing.

[Zach Lowe]

That's me learning from Amanda.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But do you know that Kaia Gerber also dated Jacob Elordi and Austin Butler? So what we're learning is that Grace and Kaia Gerber do not have the same. Same taste in men. And that's okay.

[Zach Lowe]

Wow.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know Kaia Gerber putting up numbers.

[Zach Lowe]

Damn.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, she's like Wilt Chamberlain.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's Kaia Gerber.

[Zach Lowe]

That's great. Good for her.

[Amanda Dobbins]

If that can't work out, then things are screwed for all of us.

[Zach Lowe]

So you're excited about Fantastic Four first episodes? I was just talking to somebody about this the other day. I didn't realize this, but after that movie comes out in about three weeks, there's not another Marvel movie for 18 months.

[Grace Fennessy]

Doomsday.

[Zach Lowe]

Right, Doomsday. The next Avengers movie, which is the big event filming right now in Romania, in Europe somewhere. And Robert Downey Jr. Is coming back as Dr. Doom. We'll see. I have been peddling the like it's kind of over. And we're getting all the signs that it's over. Obviously a lot is riding on an Avengers movie. All the Avengers movies make a billion dollars. Robert Downey Jr. Has been at the center of the MCU for 15, almost 20 years. Are you still excited? I can't wait to see what they do with these stories.

[Grace Fennessy]

I am very excited. I wouldn't compare it to that high school excitement of Endgame and Infinity War, but I think it's a hopeful excited where the other was. This will be amazing. And I can't wait. I really hope this works out because I want it to. And Thunderbolts gave me that hope. And Fantastic Four, I will be there. Day of can't wait. But if that's not good, that'll be a little tough.

[Zach Lowe]

And where's your head at with Doomsday?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Just trying to remember who's who and looking for my empty director's chair with my name on it.

[Zach Lowe]

I wanted to ask you one last question before we go. So Amanda and I have been doing this 25 for 25 gimmick all year. 25 movies across the century.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Zach Lowe]

One film per director.

[Grace Fennessy]

Oh. Oh, I didn't realize. Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

So that's been a restriction that we have. So, you know Amanda wanted to put 14 Nancy Myers movies. I was like, how about just one? We got one on there. Your number one movie of the century. If you had to choose one, I.

[Grace Fennessy]

Would choose Knives Out.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Grace Fennessy]

That would be my choice.

[Zach Lowe]

So why that movie?

[Grace Fennessy]

Okay, one. Chris Evans, isn't it? I'm gonna leave that there. I'm gonna put that right there. Lay it on the table.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This podcast has been really disrespectful to him, and I think, you know, you're making amends for your brother's misdeeds.

[Zach Lowe]

He's very good in that movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Great sweater.

[Zach Lowe]

Yep.

[Grace Fennessy]

Great sweater.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Grace Fennessy]

Anyways, no, I love that movie because, I don't know, I really enjoy, like, a murder mystery type. Type beat. But, like, the lighting, it feels lighter, which. I don't know how to make that make sense, but I don't know, the characters are just so eccentric, where you're like, I kind of hate you, but you're also very entertaining. I think that's also a great cast. What else do I love about that movie? I don't know. I just think it's fun. Like, it's fun. The string instruments, like, the music in the background is very. I love it. I just. I. I don't know.

[Zach Lowe]

Did you like two Glass Onion? So you're excited for three can't wait. Wake Up Dead man, which is coming out this winter.

[Grace Fennessy]

I wish I could think of movies that are similar to it, but there's a certain vibe in my head of those movies that not much else matches.

[Zach Lowe]

So when Rian Johnson was on this podcast talking about Knives out, which was 2017, he recommended a movie called the Last of Sheila, which is a movie I'll recommend to you right now to check out, which is clearly a big inspiration point. And it has that same feeling of everyone on this boat sucks. Everyone who worked on this movie likes Agatha Christie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Zach Lowe]

There's a murder mystery, and it's kind of funny and light, even though people get killed.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

So check that out.

[Grace Fennessy]

Good jokes.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Murder mystery, beautiful people.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Grace Fennessy]

Fantastic.

[Zach Lowe]

Nice sweaters.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And it's on location as well, so nice places. Maybe even nicer than the house.

[Zach Lowe]

Knives out, we haven't talked about it too much recently.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I think that we didn't. We weren't as enthusiastic about Glass Onion as you were. And so that sort of. And it has, like, a pre Pandemic feeling to all of it. And also the original does. And also a pre, like, $300 million Netflix deal.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So we're living in a knives out 2world now. And we haven't, you know, but she's right. It's a Chris Evans, like, very early Ana de Arma. I mean, who else is in there?

[Zach Lowe]

Daniel Lee Curtis, Daniel Craig Stanfield.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. No, it's like, incredible cast and it's.

[Zach Lowe]

Very Michael Shannon, Toni Collette. It's a crazy cast.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And it's fun. It's like it knows what it wants to do and is having a lot of fun doing it, which, you know, it's like a machine, you know, just like an Agath Christie mystery, which I enjoy.

[Unknown]

Also.

[Grace Fennessy]

I'm not giving credit to Daniel Craig here. He is like the central point of those movies where he's that traditional. I feel like 1950s movie detective, but modernized. And I'm like, he's just. He's just an old man. He's so cute. Like, I love. Great.

[Zach Lowe]

He's in his old man phase. How do you feel about that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Listen, you know, we have different seasons for different people. That's okay.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that he's very handsome. So. But that's fine. I also am a fan of Jacob Elordi and Austin Butler.

[Zach Lowe]

So, you know, know, women can't really have it all, from 25 year olds to 55 year olds. Grace, where can we find you? Promote yourself.

[Grace Fennessy]

Oh, goodness.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You want the letterbox public? If you don't, you don't have to.

[Grace Fennessy]

My letterbox is very public. Grace. Fantasy. I think it's just. I think that's just it.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Grace Fennessy]

And then this is really it.

[Zach Lowe]

Thank you, Grace.

[Grace Fennessy]

Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is so fun.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, we're here with producer par excellence, Jack Sanders.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You look nervous. Undo your arms.

[Zach Lowe]

Are you nervous? I wasn't nervous at all. I'm going to cut this, by the way, but that's okay. It's all body language. It's all body language. If you were in a race car, you wouldn't have your arms crossed. That's true. You'd have your hands on the steering wheel, ready to drive through your take. So your favorite movie of the year so far? F1. Okay. Why? I want to engage in something that.

[Chris Ryan]

Might seem a little bit counterintuitive, but I think it will make sense.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Does this movie have one of the least impressive Brad pit performances of his career?

[Zach Lowe]

I would say yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

I would as well.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this a $350 million F1 commercial?

[Zach Lowe]

I would say yes if.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, the only question there is if that number is accurate or low.

[Zach Lowe]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

And then I would say, is this a Formulaic, predictable story filled with cliche. I would also say yes, pretty much. And yet I'm here on this podcast.

[Zach Lowe]

To tell you it's one of the.

[Chris Ryan]

Best movies of the year. Because the good in this movie is so damn good. I don't give a fuck about the.

[Zach Lowe]

Rest of the flaws. I generally agree.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. I also agree we spent some time this morning before recording, watching a meme of the. So it's one of the. It's the fight between Javier Bardem's character.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. Stilgar. And Chani.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And Zendaya's character in Dune 2. But in the subtitles are replaced with the F1 discourse. And it's very, well, whoever did that meme, congratulations to you. You've got a bright future. And it does seem like a lot of people are nitpicking, but then there are also a lot of people who are like, well, this is really loud and fun. And when they get it right, as Jack said, they get it. Really.

[Zach Lowe]

I think it's because there is a sacred understanding in the art of the summer blockbuster that summer blockbusters do not need to be. It would be nice if they were, but they do not need to be innovative in terms of story. They do not need to wow you with performance. What they need to do is thrill and satisfy you in the experience of blockbustering. The big set piece, the thrilling chase, the desire to watch two characters have chemistry together. That's really all that we need. This movie has a secret sauce which is just sick, racing, and that kind of is all that matters.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And then one emotional beat that they do. I do think they know nail, which is the. So Brad Pitt, like in the balcony scene, you know, after he has sex with his co worker, which, you know, there's a, you know, a note on that, but that's fine. When he is like, I'm just trying to find that moment. Like, he nails that speech. I think you don't agree.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's okay.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't think it's egregious by any stretch, but I wasn't right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's not as bad as some of the other stuff.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But then they pay that off.

[Chris Ryan]

I agree. I would just say, to your point, I think I told you this earlier. The word I would use to describe it is. It's hypnotic. When Kaczynski is building the action set pieces in this film, it's legitimately mesmerizing. And you're not remembering that you need to do laundry when you get home or you need to order takeout. It's just you and the screen. And Kaczynski is entering, like a really rarefied air, I would say up there with like, Peel, Villeneuve, Nolan, like, he's on a short list of names when it comes to building mesmerizing action set. Set pieces that are really genuinely impressive.

[Zach Lowe]

It's exciting. It's nice to have another person that we're like, okay, when we see a date on the calendar for one of their movies, you know, you're at least going to get one. Certain aspect is going to be really satisfying. I'm very curious to see how well this movie does, like, across the summer, Whether or not it hit the hardcore fans and it will trickle off or if it has staying power because the word of mouth has been good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Zach Lowe]

It's a. It's a rare, like, here's what's not good about this movie and I don't care kind of a movie. Whereas I think for the most part in our movie culture, especially with serious fans who go to see everything, they can kind of like nitpick something to death at the outset and it kind of deflates the balloon for a movie. This seems to be somewhat immune to that so far, which has been a fascinating thing to watch.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did you have anything else on your list? Like, if you had first pick, would it still be F1 or.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, no, it'd be sinners.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

It would be sinners.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So Rob Mahoney comes for us all.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it was Sinners. Black Bag and Friendship were ahead of.

[Zach Lowe]

The this for me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Oh, that's a nice list. Good job. You saw seen. You felt seen as a 20 something in friendship.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God, absolutely.

[Zach Lowe]

So that also applies to the 20 somethings, not just the 30s and 40s.

[Chris Ryan]

100%.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, like, I was 19 years old when co struck and I feel like that just did a lot of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, social damage to not just my own psyche, but I would say my peers. In terms of interesting.

[Zach Lowe]

I've never heard that before. I'm just. Yeah. I thought Friendship was amazing, but F1 is amazing too. It is. Great pick, Jack. Thank you. Okay, man. It's just you and me now. The way that the show is always designed to be the last two survivors on Movie Island.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Zach Lowe]

What's your pick?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Venetian scheme, which I. I feel good about. I. I think I said already on this episode that left to my own devices, I would have picked Black Bag, but I think I would have been doing myself and movie culture a disservice. Just as I think the movie world and people at large do every Wes Anderson movie a disservice. We just are not appreciating enough what's going on with Wes Anderson. This is one of our favorite working filmmakers, I think one of the great working filmmakers who is just really, really in his zone. And he is in his own zone and has created like an entire world and a visual and an emotional language that he is just doing variations on makes it sound reductive. And I think some of the quote unquote complaints about this which I don't really recognize, or that it's just like another Wes Anderson diorama movie that is rude to the art of cinematography, production design and Wes Anderson's brain.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, the writing, the music, the performance.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The act style, the humor, the ideas. I still regret how we treated Asteroid City, which I think is like his. I don't think it's late career, but it's his. His mid career masterpiece, latest career masterpiece or masterwork. And this is doing something a little different and maybe a little less adventurous or a little less interested in playing with form and chronology, but still rich with ideas, still rich with illusions. Still very rewarding to people who have been with him on the ride, which we have. And that's another thing where there are as many filmmakers where you and I like kind of came of age as like film watchers at the same time. And I definitely did with Wes Anderson. So I'm like thinking like a Rushmore and a Royal Tenenbaums fan when I'm watching Asteroid City and Phoenician Scheme. But yeah, it's like beautiful both visually and emotionally. Smart, funny. Benicio Del Toro, sort of like the undersung performance of the year in my opinion. He's wonderful and as is the rest of the supporting cast.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm a little surprised that this movie has not had a little bit more of a rallying cry about it as just a good movie for a moment. And I think that it's a little bit hard for people to separate the aesthetics of the Wes Anderson movie style with what the films are about. But obviously there's been a pretty persistent anti fascist theme of his movies since Grand Budapest Hotel. That's a big part of that story. It's a big part of this story. The relationship between power and wealth. And that being a primary concern of this movie. Given what has been transpiring at least in the United States of America in the last month or so. I think a lot of it is just down to people seeing a trailer and saying, like, I'm sick of this and not giving it a chance or not being willing to engage. I don't think this is quite on the level of Asteroid City, but I do think it's on the level of French Dispatch.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally.

[Zach Lowe]

I wonder if more people will now start discovering it once it gets into the VOD cycle. Just like all. I mean, the last three or four movies are all. It's been the same arc where it's like it comes out, the Die Hards really yell out about it, some casuals get interested, and then it needs a second wave when it comes home. And I don't. Whether that's good or bad, I guess, is debatable. But this one in particular, the response was more muted than usual. So I'm glad that you chose it. Yeah, there's nothing muted about my pick. My pick is Warfare, which, especially in the cold light of 28 years later, I find to be a fascinating appetizer for that movie because it is a movie that I think is actually quite free of a lot of Alex Garland's obsessions. 28 years later is kind of the absolute pinnacle of the erosion of humanity colliding with the nation state and technology, tearing us apart. All these ideas, Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Warfare, which is the military industrial complex.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes. But done in this unique way where he's collaborating with Raymond Doza, his co director on the movie, who is a veteran, someone who served in the Middle east, and who is bringing all of his very specific memories to this movie and the making of it. To me, it's an amazing showcase for what a great filmmaker Garland has become as an image maker. His use of sound, his use of the way the performance style he gets out of people, the staging he has. And my favorite thing about it, and my favorite thing about talking to both Mendoza and Garland about the movie was even though they're clearly friends and they like working together, they see the world differently and they decided to do something together that just doesn't happen. It's very rare to find two people who are simpatico creatively, but not necessarily. I don't know about politically or the way that they see the military or the way that they see. And I'm not trying to ascribe specifically specific political thought to either of those guys because they were both a little circumspect when we talked about it. But I asked them both about whether or not this is an anti war movie and they had a different point of view. And I find that, and I could feel it in the movie, you can really feel in the movie that there are some profound misgivings about the nature of conflict and the nature of violent conflict. And then there is also this begrudging sense of necessity when you find yourself in certain circumstances and just a really amazing friction in the story. And on top of the fact that it is just like a punishing movie, a movie that just hurts to watch and accomplishes what it wants to accomplish. And I'm quite curious to see where Garland goes as a director from here because he's been more focused on the like, let me violate your senses while watching a movie more than anything else.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Both Garland examples this year are made in collaboration with someone else. You know, and I think that I would apply that to most people that that. And we have been talking about this in great deal.

[Zach Lowe]

Take this very podcast.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, well, it's. But that if you can find someone who you can at least work with creatively, that has historically yielded like a lot of great work. And sometimes I do feel like recently we've been getting, with the exception of the Wes Andersons of the world, some like, like very like closed off auteurous examples where you can feel that it's like only one person. And there hasn't been anyone pushing back for anyone saying, what about this? Or what if we tried it this way? Or imagine what we could do. So I, you know, it's great that people like working together and that it makes the work better sometimes.

[Zach Lowe]

I wanted to shout out a couple of other movies before we wrap up. Adam Neyman mentioned the Shrouds. He didn't want to pick it because he didn't want to be accused of Canadian bias. But David Cronenberg's Real Late Style, I don't know if it's a masterpiece, but it is also kind of violating in a way and its ideas about death and what we want to see all the time. So I love that movie. One movie I haven't had a chance to talk about on the show. I don't think you've had a chance to see. It just came out. It's called Familiar Touch.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I haven't.

[Zach Lowe]

It is directed by a woman named Sarah Friedland. It's her first feature. It stars Kathleen Schalfant as a woman, I believe, in her 80s who's struggling with dementia. And her son puts her into a facility where she can live out the rest of her days. The movie is amazing for two reasons. One, Chalfont is like gives an incredible performance as this woman who is very elegant and educated. And to watch her Lose some of that. And we've seen this in movies before. Sarah Polley made a movie about this some years ago. But then the flip side of it is the movie has this very, like, outside, abstract portrait of the caregivers and the people who work in the facility and how they interact with people who are struggling with these things. And the fact that these people are not just servants to the final days of someone's life, they're people with feelings. And they also can be disturbed and frustrated and also inspire people and make them feel better. So very quiet, simple. You know, I've had grandparents who have gone into these facilities. It's super difficult to watch someone that you knew and cared about kind of slowly fall away from day to day life. So I thought that was a very special movie. Final Destination Bloodlines is the exact opposite end of the spectrum. It's loud, gross, stupid, and really fun. No one picked it here. I'm kind of surprised no one picked it. It's been a sensation.

[Amanda Dobbins]

If we hadn't had two of the best movies of the year also be loud and virtuosically violent in different ways, maybe it would be on the table.

[Zach Lowe]

But I think it's a good point. It's currently in my top 10 and I feel good about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Great.

[Zach Lowe]

I wanted to give some love to one of them days.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This is a great pick. Yeah, I'm like, oh, should I have picked this one instead?

[Zach Lowe]

This is really good. I revisited it on Netflix the other day and I was like, this is just a good hang. Like, this is like a good dorm room movie. You know, you can just kind of put it on at any hour of the day and it's just really fun. Thought SZA was really, really funny in this. Even watching it the second time, she was really great. And then I did want to quickly shout out a movie called A Desert, which I also really liked, which is starts out as a movie about a photographer who is like a successfully commercial photographer who's trying to kind of rediscover his mojo by going out to the desert and shoot whatever he stumbles upon. And he's particularly interested in abandoned drive in movie theater.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

And then. And so it seems like it's kind of a Neo noir, kind of a thriller. And then it takes a hard pivot into something much more sinister and violent and scary. I thought it was really good. It's a debut from Joshua Erkman as the director, and I think it's going to be on Shutter soon. It was quite striking and quite good. So so that's some bonus. Who are you most mad at for taking a movie from you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't really. I don't feel anger at anyone on this one. I think that the anger is sort of directed between our guests. And I like to foster healthy discussion while also not having to wanna kill Rob Mahoney for once in my life. But that was a theme that emerges, was Rob Mahoney once again comes and takes away something from everybody.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you think we should have an episode where everybody gets to pick on Rob for two hours?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's hard, you know? Like, where would the.

[Zach Lowe]

I know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Like, I don't know where the weaknesses are.

[Zach Lowe]

Strong intellect.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I would like to understand how to defeat him in a draft, but I don't yet have my arms around that strategy.

[Zach Lowe]

Can I pitch a theory as to. To his rise?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Zach Lowe]

He's secretly just like the right amount younger than us that he is actually in his prime and we're not. No offense. You know what I mean?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no, no, I get it.

[Zach Lowe]

He's like in his early mid-30s and the rest of us are all desiccated corpses.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Was it, I think in 1999 draft, he took Notting Hill from me. I would say.

[Zach Lowe]

What about from me?

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then I. I don't want to. I don't want to slander him, you know, because I know what happens when you piss Rahoney off. But I. And I. So I'm not 100% sure, but, like, I got the feeling that he had only recently seen Notting Hill before that draft.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, wow.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And that upset me.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Amanda Dobbins]

On many levels.

[Zach Lowe]

That's a strong accusation.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, you know, he was only born like four years after Nodding Hill, so you have to play catch up sometime.

[Zach Lowe]

Crazy Rob Mahoney just turned 19. So, so impressive.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Happy birthday.

[Zach Lowe]

He's so smart. Okay, that'll do it for this episode. Thanks producer Jack Sanders for his contributions, both on mic and off in this episode. Later this week, we are going to an 8am screening of Jurassic World Rebirth. Me and Amanda and C.R. we are going to watch the movie, but before that, we're going to watch the Odyssey teaser.

[Amanda Dobbins]

If it is available, if it is.

[Zach Lowe]

Attached to the film.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I am showing up, like, for all of the teasers at 8am we need to talk. We got to talk about a coffee and pastry strategy beforehand.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, we're going to the Americana. There should be something open, right? Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't. I actually don't know.

[Zach Lowe]

Egg slut. What do you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

At 8am is it not open?

[Zach Lowe]

Is it not open.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't. I don't know what's going on there.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, well, we'll. We'll get into it, then. We'll see you on Wednesday.