The 2025 Dumpuary Extravaganza. Plus: Steven Soderbergh Returns!

Summary

The Big Picture Podcast Summary
Episode: The 2025 Dumpuary Extravaganza. Plus: Steven Soderbergh Returns!
Release Date: January 27, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of The Big Picture, hosted by Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins from The Ringer, the conversation delves deep into the latest cinematic releases deemed fit for their Dumpuary Extravaganza—a term they use to categorize movies released in January, traditionally a slower month for box office hits. This episode not only reviews movies that may have been overlooked but also features a special segment with acclaimed director Steven Soderbergh, discussing his latest project, Presence.

---

Main Discussion

1. "Better Man" Biopic Review

Timestamp: 02:43 – 22:58

The episode kicks off with an in-depth analysis of "Better Man," a daring biopic about British musical star Robbie Williams. Unique to this portrayal is Williams being depicted by a CGI chimpanzee, sparking a lively debate among the hosts and guest Yassi Salak.

• Character Portrayal: Yassi Salak points out the precision in Robbie Williams' chimpanzee representation, noting, “...it is a chimpanzee. Monkeys have tails. This is a chimpanzee. It does not have a tail.” (03:31)

• Emotional Connection: Sean Fennessey remarks, “I don't think I understood that delineation,” highlighting the challenge of connecting emotionally without a direct human portrayal. Yassi counters, “I was honestly shocked how much I loved Better Man because I did not know most of the songs,” emphasizing that the film's strength lies beyond just the music (11:00).

• Directorial Vision: The film is directed by Michael Gracey, known for The Greatest Showman. Fennessey appreciates Gracey's dynamic visual style, stating, “...the dance sequences, the choreography, the way that CGI is deployed” (12:34).

2. Music Biopics: Strengths and Weaknesses

Timestamp: 22:58 – 35:09

The hosts transition into a broader discussion on music biopics, evaluating their effectiveness and common pitfalls.

• Formulaic Narratives: Yassi expresses frustration with typical biopics: “I hate music biopics across the board, they're almost all bad.” (18:34) She praises Better Man for avoiding the usual self-serious tone that often plagues the genre.

• Emotional Authenticity: Sean shares his personal aversion to the clichéd narratives, saying, “...they don’t have the right classification here,” critiquing how traditional scripts fail to capture genuine emotional arcs (15:24).

• Comparative Analysis: The conversation references successful biopics like Walk the Line and Rocketman, contrasting them with less effective ones such as Back in Black and Last Days. Chris Ryan highlights, “I enjoyed Walk the Line. I've never wavered on that,” underscoring the importance of authentic storytelling (32:35).

3. Other Movies in Dumpuary Review

Timestamp: 35:09 – 55:04

The discussion broadens to include reviews of other January releases, categorized under the Dumpuary Extravaganza.

• "Days" by Lawrence Lamont: A modern take with laughs, likened to Friday and Bridesmaids. The hosts appreciate its humorous set pieces and cameos, though Yassi notes, “It's like the plot of Friday basically with like two tweaks or whatever” (39:37).

• "Back in Action" on Netflix: Starring Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx, the movie receives criticism for its lackluster plot and execution. Sean summarizes, “It's very bad” (54:07), while Chris humorously shares his disinterest despite the star power.

• "Presence" Directed by Steven Soderbergh: A contemplative ghost story seen through the camera's eyes. Amanda praises its narrative depth and visual language, stating, “It's a very contained, constrained, intimate horror movie” (91:02).

• "Wolfman" Directed by Leigh Whannell: A modern werewolf film featuring Christopher Abbott and Julia Garner. The hosts discuss its effective makeup and thematic depth but critique its lack of traditional scares. Sean mentions, “I think it's not scary” (72:00), while Amanda elaborates on the character dynamics and visual storytelling (75:34).

• "Flight Risk" Directed by Mel Gibson: A consensus of disapproval marks this film as a significant misstep. Yassi emphatically states, “This movie eats absolute shit. Crime against cinema” (78:27), with Sean agreeing on its poor execution despite the star presence.

4. Technical Aspects of Filmmaking with Brian Curtis

Timestamp: 55:04 – 88:21

Brian Curtis joins the hosts to discuss his experience directing "Presence".

• Filmmaking Techniques: Curtis details his use of the Sony A7 camera with a Ronin stabilization device, emphasizing the technical challenges of shooting from a ghost's perspective. He notes, “...the camera is flying all over the place” (12:34), reflecting on the dynamic visual style required.

• Editing Style: The film employs an abrupt cutting technique, deliberately avoiding traditional transitions to signify time passage. Curtis explains, “It seemed like the easiest and simplest way to indicate the passage of time” (121:13).

• Narrative Structure: Sean praises the screenplay, highlighting the movie’s ability to convey complex family dynamics without explicit exposition. Amanda adds, “It's a pretty staggering portrait of a family” (94:23).

• Learning Outcomes: While Curtis acknowledges the unique demands of Presence, he reflects on the project's one-off nature, stating, “...it was so specific in its demands and its requirements and they don't really fit in most things” (110:33).

5. Interview with Steven Soderbergh

Timestamp: 88:21 – 133:00

In a special segment, the hosts interview Steven Soderbergh about his latest film "Presence" and his filmmaking philosophy.

• Filmography and Milestones: Sean notes, “Presence is your 35th feature. Not a lot of people get to 35. It's a huge accomplishment” (102:00), commending Soderbergh on his prolific career.

• Collaboration with David Koepp: Soderbergh discusses his long-standing friendship with screenwriter David Koepp and their collaborative process on Presence. He remarks, “...it was a real movie idea. This doesn't work in any other format, even television” (105:00).

• Narrative and Visual Innovation: The film’s unique perspective through a ghost’s viewpoint is explored. Soderbergh emphasizes the importance of pushing narrative boundaries while maintaining audience engagement: “I think it's absolutely mandatory that we keep pushing at that line because I don't think there isn't” (114:10).

• Theatrical vs. Streaming Releases: A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the impact of distribution methods. Curtis asserts, “I feel very strongly about this. You got to put the movies in movie theaters to make them real movies” (124:01), advocating for theatrical releases to ensure cultural imprint and audience connection.

• Final Recommendations: Soderbergh shares his appreciation for the film "September 5th," praising its flawless execution and intelligent storytelling: “...it knew exactly what it was doing. And I have no notes” (131:07).

---

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with teasers for upcoming discussions on Brutalist Best Picture Nominees and further exploration into Steven Soderbergh's contributions to cinema. Hosts Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins express gratitude to guests Brian Curtis, Chris Ryan, Yassi Salak, and Steven Soderbergh for their valuable insights.

Notably, the episode underscores the evolving landscape of film distribution, the enduring challenges of making impactful music biopics, and the innovative approaches of directors like Soderbergh who continue to push the boundaries of cinematic storytelling.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Yassi Salak on CGI Portrayal: “I'm sorry, just not to be like split hairs, but it is a chimpanzee. Monkeys have tails. This is a chimpanzee.” (03:31)

• Sean Fennessy on Emotional Connection: “I didn't feel emotionally connected to whatever Robbie Williams plight was...” (12:57)

• Chris Ryan on Music Biopics: “I enjoyed Walk the Line. I've never wavered on that.” (32:35)

• Brian Curtis on Filmmaking Techniques: “It's a Sony A7, which is, which looks, which has the sort of form factor of a still camera.” (110:33)

• Steven Soderbergh on Pushing Narratives: “I think it's absolutely mandatory that we keep pushing at that line because I don't think there isn't...” (114:10)

• Brian Curtis on Theatrical Releases: “You got to put the movies in movie theaters to make them real movies.” (124:01)

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and notable moments from The Big Picture podcast episode, providing a clear and engaging overview for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

[Brian Curtis]

Hey, it's Brian Curtis from the Ringer and I want to tell you about the Press Box podcast. The Press Box is a podcast for.

[Sean Fennessy]

Anybody who likes news, whether it's about.

[Brian Curtis]

Sports or politics or pop culture and.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wants to understand how that news really gets made. We have new shows every Monday and Thursday. We have long interviews with everyone from Jon Krakauer to Joe Buck. Your social media feeds are bursting with information every day. Let us help you sort it out.

[Brian Curtis]

Join us on the Press box.

[Sean Fennessy]

With new McValue. At McDonald's, you always get more than you expect every day. So even if gas prices go up, you can buy a double cheeseburger and.

[Brian Curtis]

Add a McChicken for $1.

[Sean Fennessy]

Or before game time, you can get $5 meal deals for the group. And if breakfast is about to end, get deals in the app to save before the bell.

[Brian Curtis]

The choice is yours.

[Sean Fennessy]

And the choice with McValue is always more.

[Brian Curtis]

Prices and participation may vary.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Valid for item of equal or lesser value. Must opt into rewards for app deals.

[Yassi Salak]

You know what's smart? Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home that you didn't have to cook meat. Factor your loophole in the laws of mealtime. Chef crafted meals delivered with a tap, ready in just two minutes. You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating your goals. Factor is dietitian approved, chef prepared, and you plated. Pretty smart, huh? Refresh your routine and eat smart with factor. Learn more@Factor Meals.com.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm Sean Fennessy.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

[Sean Fennessy]

And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about dump uary. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Steven Soderbergh. His new film presence is in theaters now and we'll talk about it later in this episode, it's a POV driven story, a ghost story. The camera is literally the ghost in this movie. Had a good time talking with Steven, who, of course, Amanda is in love with.

[Chris Ryan]

What Spoiler?

[Sean Fennessy]

Why is that a spoiler?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know. I just.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's in the marketing material.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, but like, if you sit down, well, that. I mean, that is on record. And he see, look, I just get tongue tied when I talk about Steven Sodrag. Sean asked him one of my questions and I'm really excited to hear what he said. But yeah, I don't know. I would. If you are gonna watch presents, just watch it, okay?

[Sean Fennessy]

Just watch it. Also, listen to my conversation with Steven. Please stick around after we talk. Today, we're talking about a bunch of new movies. We have multiple guests. Later in the episode, Chris Ryan will show up to talk about some doodly films that are hitting theaters. But we're joined by a special guest in studio, Yassi Salak. Hi, Yassi.

[Yassi Salak]

Hi, Sean.

[Sean Fennessy]

How are you doing?

[Chris Ryan]

Hi, Yassi.

[Yassi Salak]

I'm great.

[Sean Fennessy]

Hanging in there.

[Yassi Salak]

Best year of my life.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, great. Wonderful. You're here for a very specific reason. Because one of the movies that was released this January, this dump uary, is called Better Man. I think Better man came up when we did it. Come up when we talked about Moana 2.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And you were like, I'm interested in this. What is this?

[Yassi Salak]

I really. Since I saw the on Twitter x.com A while back, I was like, what's this? I'm intrigued.

[Sean Fennessy]

And Amanda, what is Betterman?

[Chris Ryan]

Sweet. It is a biopic about the British musical star Robbie Williams, wherein Robbie Williams is played by a CGI monkey.

[Yassi Salak]

I'm sorry, just not to be like split hairs, but it is a chimpanzee.

[Chris Ryan]

I actually, as I was saying monkey. I was like, I don't actually think that I have the right classification here.

[Yassi Salak]

Calling it monkey, monkey. But then I did a bit of research and it is a chimpanzee. Monkeys have tails. This is a chimpanzee. It does not have a tail.

[Sean Fennessy]

Interesting. Okay, so I don't. I don't think I understood that delineation.

[Chris Ryan]

I didn't either.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is there a meaningful difference in the execution of the movie? If this were a monkey, would it be closer to a Planet of the Apes style tale?

[Yassi Salak]

I mean, honestly, when I thought about that, it was more just like a tail is so unnerving. So I think that they made the right choice.

[Sean Fennessy]

I can assure you this is no less unnerving.

[Yassi Salak]

Then you have to adjust too much with the tail.

[Chris Ryan]

Then you have to adjust the wardrobe for the. Yeah, exactly. You know, and the chimpanzee. I almost said monkey. I'm sorry. Is dressed like a. All the other humans around him.

[Yassi Salak]

Sexily.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, he's. He's hot.

[Sean Fennessy]

Hot. Chimpanzees.

[Yassi Salak]

No, I'm just saying they're dressed sexily. That's the whole along for the take. That portion of it.

[Brian Curtis]

Oh, sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Okay. Okay. I mean, let's talk about Robbie Williams before we get into the actual movie itself, because Robbie Williams is a name that I think many people between the ages of 30 and 60 have probably heard. He is quite famous in the UK, significantly less famous in the United States. He did make an attempt to break through in the US which didn't really take. But he has been kind of in the firmament of celebrity in the United Kingdom for a long time.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, in the United Kingdom, Very much so, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

This movie is a pretty significant risk in the United States. We'll talk about that risk that was taken. But I think you and I have had mostly the same experience with Robbie Williams, which is that I'm sure we were aware of and had heard Take that songs. And then when he went solo, he came through with Millennium, which is of course a kind of morphed adaptation of a James Bond song delivered in the style of like a Frank Sinatra dance ballad.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure, yeah. Everything that you just said was like a really, really normal kind of accurate, though. Yes, it is.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, that's all in hit.

[Chris Ryan]

Despite Millennium and despite us all.

[Yassi Salak]

What about Angels, you guys? Angels?

[Chris Ryan]

I don't know what that is.

[Yassi Salak]

How have you never heard?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, what charted higher in the US you got to consider where we were. We basically grew up in a suburban existence watching MTV all day.

[Brian Curtis]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

Y.

[Chris Ryan]

And so I got Millennium and that's it.

[Sean Fennessy]

And also, are you whisper singing Angels?

[Yassi Salak]

I don't want to unleash my full singing voice.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're holding your voice back.

[Yassi Salak]

I don't think the big picture is prepared for that. Okay, but you don't know what charted higher.

[Sean Fennessy]

You had a very different experience than we did with Robbie Williams.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, I don't very like. It's not my favorite artist that I had as posters on my wall take. That did not exist to me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, same.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, because that was. I went to high school partially in Singapore because I am the most interesting woman in the world. And I moved there in like 97, which is when Robbie Williams went solo. So take that. Nothing to do with me. But he was very big on MTV Asia, so I knew Angels. I knew Millennium and you liked them. I just knew them. No, I don't. It wasn't. I wasn't. You know, I was listening to. That was some real shit. Some real guitar based shit.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah, same.

[Yassi Salak]

But I knew it like it was in the ether. Like I know those songs when I hear them. They're very familiar to me.

[Sean Fennessy]

He. You know, there were a number of other. Obviously this is sort of at the. I guess, sort of the tail end of the Britpop explosion when he came along.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, because I think Be Here now came out in 96.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, 98. Okay. So after.

[Yassi Salak]

Am I wrong?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't even remember.

[Yassi Salak]

I think it's 98.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Yassi Salak]

Bobby can fact check for us.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sorry, I was just in the Middle of back checking angels charted higher 50 was.

[Yassi Salak]

Angels is like a huge.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, got past me.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, absolutely. I have no idea what that is.

[Sean Fennessy]

Be here now, 18 weeks on the chart. Millennium only only peaked at 72 and was only in the chart for four weeks.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

It's also not unrelated, honestly, because Brit pop died in 1997 as a result of multiple factors, including Be Here now, including. Including Noel Gallagher going to 10 Downing and his fuck ass blazer and his dumb haircut and being like, okay, cool.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. By the way, old episode of the podcast where just absolute Liam Gallagher slander. I think it was the Brutalist. Yeah. And you and Adam Naiman were just like, team Noel. He's the artist. And I just, I think there are a lot of different definitions of art.

[Sean Fennessy]

I do disagree.

[Yassi Salak]

I did enjoy that episode. Cause you know, I love. I'm a brutalist bitch. Like I said.

[Sean Fennessy]

I know.

[Yassi Salak]

And then also then you guys had like a mini band's playing in the middle and I was like, well, it was a good episode, but I just.

[Chris Ryan]

You know, once again, Liam rules.

[Sean Fennessy]

You will have plenty of time after you see Oasis live to really delineate who is the true artist in Oasis. There's no counterpoint, no brother figure in the Robbie Williams story.

[Yassi Salak]

No. But, oh, I was gonna say is like Robbie Williams going solo is not part of Brit pop dying.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's tangentially connected for sure.

[Yassi Salak]

It's. It's the. We ushers in this sort of like new pop thing that happens.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think like Jamiroquai is a part of that. There are a few UK artists who like infiltrated America and there was this expectation that like, there would be a long stream the same way that there was in the 60s.

[Yassi Salak]

Old Spice Girls also come out, I think in 1997.

[Sean Fennessy]

Very related, very connected. And now all of that stuff was happening. I regarded it with some curiosity and not a ton of interest. There wasn't exactly. British pop is not my favorite kind of music. Um, but this is. I mean this was. We're talking about stuff that was happening 28, 29, 30 years ago. So this is a very odd subject for a wide release film in the United States. And yet amongst some people in our lives, this is among the most beloved movies that's come out, despite its huge crit, uh, commercial failure in the U.S.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay, but don't you feel. And not to regurgitate X.com takes, but is not the commercial failure a great deal? Because no one knows you. Robbie Williams is here. Like, I'm Sure. The monkey chimpanzee aspect has something to.

[Chris Ryan]

Do with it, but yes, of course. And I think even watching it, as a person who knew Millennium and, you know, I actually loves a music biopic. I was like, okay, but who is this person? And who are any of these people? And, like, what is. Take that. I literally just googled take that and learned that Gary Barlow is one of this. Okay, but Gary Barlow is someone I've seen on, like, Graham norton for, like, 20 years and have literally never known who he was. That's my little.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, he's a part of this film in the story.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I wasn't paying that close attention to that. I have to be honest.

[Yassi Salak]

I like him. Antagonist. Besides the dad.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, that's. He's his band Gary, and he goes to the house and he's like, Gary.

[Sean Fennessy]

I guess he's the same Gary.

[Chris Ryan]

But I, you know, like, oh, wait.

[Sean Fennessy]

That'S a good point.

[Chris Ryan]

Say Gary Barlow 45 times in the movie. So I wasn't like, oh, that guy from, you know, the talk shows that I watched watch. So, yeah, no one knows who he is. And. And I. And even watching it, you're kind of like, okay, a lot of this is cool, but also, like, why And. And who are these people and what are these songs? And, you know, and. And I think that's the thing. The music isn't as well known here.

[Yassi Salak]

So that, to me, I think, is the, like, hardest because to bring up a complete unknown. You enjoy it so much because you know the song.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Yassi Salak]

And that's why I was, like, honestly shocked how much I loved Betterman because I did not know most of the songs, and I still loved it. And I was like, wow. And I didn't know that much of the story, and I still loved it. And I was like, that means it's so good. Because music biopics really just, like, kind of cheaply play on your, like, fondness for the music.

[Sean Fennessy]

They often do most of the enjoyment. They often do. There's one specific aspect of this that is different, aside from the chimpanzee aspect, which is that Michael Grace is the director of this movie. Michael Grace's last movie was the Greatest Showman, which had a kind of a similar arc of, like, immediate failure. And then it became a huge box office success over an extended period of time at this same time of year, came out in December, didn't do well, and then, for whatever reason, held on at the box office and then was kind of claimed as kind of like a goofball postmodern musical masterpiece, Betterman is sort of trending in that same direction. It's never going to make the amount of money that the Greatest Showman did. But Michael Gracie is actually a very interesting figure. He kind of has a similar background to someone like James Cameron where he was a VFX artist working behind the scenes on movies for a long time. Always had a very dynamic, creative visual sensibility. The reason why he took this movie on we can talk about in a little bit. But he's a director who has like an incredible energy in his movies. I don't really love the script of this movie, but I had a lot of fun watching it because man, it's like so thrilling at times the way that it's made. Like the camera is flying all over the place. The dance sequences, the choreography, the way that CGI is deployed.

[Chris Ryan]

The rock, the dj, the rock, the dj. Come on.

[Sean Fennessy]

Incredible. One of the great movie scenes of the year. Super fun and exciting and creative and you know, this movie was nominated for best visual effects Oscar. And so the issues that I have with it, aside from not really knowing those songs and not having that pleasure hit that you're talking about when you hear a song you love.

[Yassi Salak]

Chimpanzees.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, I like chimpanzees and I like movies with monkeys and chimps in them as well. I don't really get. I didn't feel emotionally connected to whatever Robbie Williams plight was, which was like guess child neglect and then the quest for fame like it did. The stakes seemed weirdly really low on this movie.

[Yassi Salak]

You know how art is like a mirror?

[Sean Fennessy]

Uh huh.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah. I feel like I'm learning a lot about you right now.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, how so?

[Yassi Salak]

No, just that we're like such different kinds of entertainers.

[Sean Fennessy]

You think I'm an entertainer?

[Yassi Salak]

I think I'm an entertainer.

[Sean Fennessy]

I wouldn't, I wouldn't dispute that. Nor would I dispute it about you either. Well, what do you mean? Because you do reflect on the child neglect and feel seen by that story.

[Yassi Salak]

Well, we'll get into that. Just on the tail end of my house burning down. But we've had a lot of.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a topic of discussion.

[Yassi Salak]

We can. We, we sure can. I. I think it was like I said this in my letterboxd review. That's right, you guys, I have a letterbox Just.

[Sean Fennessy]

Just scoping for dudes. That's right.

[Yassi Salak]

Get on here, babe.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, that would be good though I'm less comfortable with the letterbox community. Well, like as a. As a Meet cute.

[Yassi Salak]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Destination than like the Rep theater. I'd like you to start there. Y.

[Yassi Salak]

Just trying to. I'm just trying to get more followers.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. All right.

[Yassi Salak]

I thought it was like, literally Jungian the way. Can I just have a little spiel on the monkey? The chimpanzee. First of all, number one, Robbie Williams looks like a monkey. So already it's working. Okay, resemble. He has a facial resemblance.

[Sean Fennessy]

He does, but we all do. Technically.

[Yassi Salak]

No, but like, more than most people.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

You need to pull up a photo. Like, look at it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Yassi Salak]

Number two, his whole thing was being dehumanized by being a clown and an entertainer. So, okay, we're dehumanizing with a monkey. And he hated himself. And yes, part of that, I think, was child neglect, if you want. Or just sort of like the value system foisted upon him by his father, who thought being famous and a star was the most important thing in the world and abandoned him to seek his fortune.

[Chris Ryan]

But also, that's.

[Yassi Salak]

Sometimes that's just how you're built, you know? And I just thought it worked so well on all those levels. And that was his plight. His plight was just that he. He hated himself. And he thought that if he could get enough other people to love him, he would stop hating himself. Which is a very common, I think, trope.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know very many people who don't feel that way. Right.

[Yassi Salak]

But like in. In fame. But you didn't connect with it. Are you not a person that felt ever comfortable?

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's always hard when someone who's just tremendously successful and rich. I tried really hard to be famous and then I got famous. Like, that's not really. It's one of the reasons why I don't really like music biopics is that they're often rooted in these sort of, you know, self mythology around one's own success.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So it's a kind of a bland story. It doesn't mean that the way he was feeling isn't valid. And it doesn't mean that child neglect and the desire to kind of like authorize your parents expectations of you isn't a real thing in people's lives. It is as the structure of a movie. It's just kind of boring. Like I knew where this was going the whole time.

[Chris Ryan]

So I'm with Yassi in that. I think that the chimpanzee. I'm really trying hard here.

[Yassi Salak]

I think we can just shorthand monkey.

[Chris Ryan]

The monkey construct is very clever, both in terms of the story and also what you expect with a music Biopic. And I like a music biopic, but they are formulaic, and so. And they do often hinge on this. Like, I really tried to be a star or be an artist, and then all these things often, including my mean dad, like, held me back. And then I made it. But there were consequences of it. I mean, you know, that is the story of a lot of famous people. I find that interesting. I think, like, the monkey thing is a clever way to do it. I also think they, like, do pull off the monkey thing in the context of the movie. My problem is, like, the inherent contradiction that, like, Robbie Williams is not that famous to me, you know? And so, like, I'm watching all of this, and I'm like, okay, well, like, you had a decent amount of success wherever you are. And I remember Millennium, but I'm like, I. You know, that's.

[Yassi Salak]

That's the. That's the disconnect.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

He really was like Justin Timberlake, like that. Like, for a comp. Like, he was so famous in the uk.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Yassi Salak]

So this story does make sense in the context of his life and the uk. It just, like, maybe doesn't translate to us.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay. My other thing was, like, I don't mind when a plot is wrote in the music biopic, especially because, like, would you have wanted it to be like, it's a chimpanzee and we have this crazy different plot? Like, I feel like, almost like, too much. Well, it's subversion of the. Of the form.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think part of it is because unlike Bob Dylan or Elton John or other people who have gotten this treatment before, I'm not as familiar with the details of Robbie Williams's life. So to learn that this movie about a significantly less famous person was greenlit with $110 million budget and this big conceit, I would have hoped. And the movie is really audacious in almost every other way.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So it being so audacious in every other way is a credit to it and a reason why I like it. Like it. Generally, I recommend this movie. It's a cool movie. It's much more different than Rocket Man. But the script itself.

[Chris Ryan]

Why does this podcast have to turn and get Sultan? John, you know I love you.

[Yassi Salak]

I love it, but we just don't have to take she deserved a better. I. I agree.

[Chris Ryan]

That's the thing.

[Yassi Salak]

I hate music. Biopics across the board, they're almost all bad.

[Chris Ryan]

That's why this movie. I'm holding this movie to the same standard.

[Yassi Salak]

I think it's Better than all of them be cut here. I'll tell you why I think the, the, the failing that most music biopics have, in my humble music expert opinion, is they are too self serious and it's embarrassing.

[Sean Fennessy]

This movie is not that.

[Yassi Salak]

And. And because of that, it's kind of able to like Trojan Horse in to me anyways. More poignancy and more feeling because it's not beating you over the head with. I. Every time I watch a music biopic with the. I don't know, I made a list. I was like, what are the good ones? They're just so like. You're like, okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

They are tremendously serious. You don't think this movie is that fun, though?

[Chris Ryan]

No, no, it's really, really fun. And then at some point he goes solo and he's just like on a boat singing his like, subpar solo stuff to some woman that I've never heard of, who I think was also, which.

[Yassi Salak]

Was like Appleton from all I have.

[Chris Ryan]

Heard of Davey with Liam Gallagher.

[Sean Fennessy]

You need to look at the cast list here so you could just see who the real people were because you're probably. I felt the same way. I'm familiar with most of these people.

[Chris Ryan]

Familiar with them in a. Like, my diseased, immoral brain still reads the Daily Mail, you know, and so it's like so many ways you're an.

[Yassi Salak]

Anglophile, yet you did not know about Robbie Williams. Graham Norton, the Daily Mail, like a.

[Chris Ryan]

Little bit about him. But it's like, you know, you read the headlines and you're like, okay, well that's. That's some local politics, you know, like, that doesn't apply to me.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's a great way of describing it. I just saw this morning a photo of. Of Liam and. And Hugh Grant at the same table circa 1998, when he was still dating Elizabeth Hurley.

[Yassi Salak]

I could just go back and I.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, you more more so than me, but I felt like I understood that access of celebrity in the UK and Robbie Williams was just on the outside. You know, he was the Karen Bass to the Gavin Newsome conversation that we're having.

[Yassi Salak]

I think you're confusing it. I think you understand that axis of fame in America, in. In the uk, they were just as famous.

[Chris Ryan]

I just wasn't there.

[Yassi Salak]

Robbie Williams set, like records.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm not disputing his level of success. I think it's all in the context of an American movie podcast, basically. And this movie being distributed by Paramount, like, this isn't an independent film with a small budget.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I kept thinking About Mamma Mia. In this, which you know was. Have you still not seen Mamma Mia. I'm sorry, really? At the. I can spoil it for you, but, like, Meryl Streep just, like, screams the winner takes it all at Pierce Brosnan, like in Greece.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, it's. It's worth seeing.

[Yassi Salak]

A secret thing about me is I hate musicals.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I mean, I kind of do sometimes do.

[Yassi Salak]

But that's.

[Chris Ryan]

But this is. This is more.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's more your exception on the modern musicals. You like classic musicals.

[Chris Ryan]

That's true. Yeah. But like, I do like classic musicals. Do you like abba?

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, just as much as the next Red Blooded.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. Right.

[Yassi Salak]

So, I mean, it's just that enjoyable.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And why is. But why did it remind you of Mamma Mia?

[Chris Ryan]

Because Mamma Mia. Like, I mean, it did well here, but for a long time it was like the most successful movie in the UK, like, ever. It made $465 million internationally to, like 100 here. And like, I think all of that was Brits being like, yo, let's go see Mamma Mia. Again.

[Sean Fennessy]

In theory, Sweden as well.

[Yassi Salak]

And European. Just all Europe.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

But.

[Chris Ryan]

But it was like. It was like a huge, huge UK outside success in the uk. So I was like, oh, maybe they think that this is, you know, that they can Mamma Mia. This. But I don't know why you would, as an American movie studio, why you would invest so much in its American release.

[Yassi Salak]

The business of it. I don't understand. That's a real.

[Sean Fennessy]

We can talk about that briefly. I mean, Matt Bellamy had this in his newsletter a couple of weeks ago, which I thought was interesting, which was that Michael Gracey agreed to the deal with Paramount to distribute this movie at a certain number, which I think was 25 million, because Paramount wanted him to make another movie that is reportedly more commercial, according to Matt.

[Yassi Salak]

So he was wheeling. He was wheeling and dealing.

[Sean Fennessy]

Maybe he loves Robbie Williams and I'm sure he does. Michael Reese's Australian, but clear, you know, he's clearly very tapped into the material here.

[Yassi Salak]

It's the Queensland, is it not The.

[Sean Fennessy]

But that movie Nevermore feels like it is going to be the end result of the Better man thing happening. Or maybe the movie doesn't happen because of the Better man performance. For the record, Better man has not been a big hit in the United. In the United Kingdom either.

[Chris Ryan]

No, it's not.

[Sean Fennessy]

It has not performed that well in Robbie Williams.

[Yassi Salak]

Do you think it's a chimpanzee?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know. I mean, I think it's a hard sell. I think. I wonder if this. I don't know what level of celebrity Robbie Williams has right now, but I wonder if it was 10 years ago if it actually would have done better when he was a little bit closer to the apex of his success.

[Yassi Salak]

Right. But you couldn't do that then, that technology. No, you just couldn't. You can't reflect on your life.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, he would have been too young, I think, later.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, maybe.

[Yassi Salak]

Did you see, you know, he made it also a docu series.

[Sean Fennessy]

I did not see that.

[Yassi Salak]

That came out last year.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did you watch that?

[Yassi Salak]

I watched half of it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Yassi Salak]

It's also quite.

[Chris Ryan]

It's.

[Yassi Salak]

It's doesn't. It leaves out some of this. Again, I only watch half of it. That's really more family stuff in this. But it's also like, he's so likable. Like, he's so. He's so self aware. That's the other thing. It's like the other music biopics. I'm like, you're so not self aware.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's a fine line between self aware, postmodern entertainer and smug guy.

[Yassi Salak]

I think he's both.

[Sean Fennessy]

As someone who literally is operating in that space at times.

[Yassi Salak]

You are an entertainer.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, maybe I am. I actually. I feel connected to Robbie Williams in some ways in that respect. But I don't think the kind of music that he makes, which is explained to us very well in the movie, which is like, his dad is obsessed with Sinatra and Tony Bennett and these kind of classical American crooners. When you listen to Robbie Williams, basically putting like a syncopated drum machine behind an attempt to sound like Frank Sinatra with a British accent.

[Yassi Salak]

Do you know who played drums on Angels?

[Sean Fennessy]

Who played drums on Angels?

[Yassi Salak]

Chris Sharrock from the Laws.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, okay.

[Yassi Salak]

Sorry. There you go.

[Sean Fennessy]

Good note. Real bandsplain moment there. Real drummer. It's just an odd kind of music. There's not. He doesn't have a lot of contemporaries, you know, like, there's Michael Buble and then, I guess Harry Connick Jr. And a handful of people in the tradition of crooning. But, like, that's not really a pop style that works in America, and certainly not one when you're like, also it's produced by, you know, it's influenced by Massive Attack or whatever. So I think that's part of the issue here is that whatever Robbie Williams makes, it never really fit in our collective heads in America. And so that is just a gap that I also Would have a harder time getting over watching a two hour movie about a guy who makes music like this. Honestly. Does that make sense?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, of course.

[Yassi Salak]

Can I say one thing about Liam Gallagher?

[Chris Ryan]

Of course.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a safe space for Liam fans, as you know.

[Yassi Salak]

I don't know if I said this to you, but one thing I was blown away by, we both recently watched what's the terrible creation movie we watched. It's called Creation Stories.

[Sean Fennessy]

Creation Stories, sure. Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

Spoiler. We will be podcasting about eventually. There's also a actor playing Liam Gallagher in that movie. And this is, I think. Okay. Do you guys not agree that almost always when an actor plays a real person, the actor is always hotter?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's pretty typically 99.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a good rule of.

[Chris Ryan]

They round out. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

They have not been able to get an actor hotter. Like, every time I'm like, liam Gallagher is 10 times hotter than this person. Why couldn't you? He's so gorgeous that they actually can't do that for him. I find that I also.

[Chris Ryan]

The. The Oasis casting in this film took me out of the movie. I would. I would agree.

[Yassi Salak]

Bad.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, and it was also. It was a commentary on Noel that I was like, okay, I. You know, I see what you think of Noah Gallagher, Robbie Williams.

[Yassi Salak]

They were so mean to him.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

In the press. And like, I like it.

[Sean Fennessy]

You.

[Yassi Salak]

I didn't. There was some stuff you had to kind of know for it to hit. And there's a lot of it. I didn't. But, like, I don't know if you guys remember the part where he's like, eating chips a bunch on after he, like, breaks up with Nicole Appleton, goes back home, and he's like, working down chips because he got really fat.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh.

[Yassi Salak]

When he was hanging out with Oasis, he got really fat. And I think they were like, trying to nod at that, but they didn't want to. Like, it was hard to make the monkey fat, I guess, but I was like, that is. You didn't get fat. And the fat suit, they did that. But that part was really good.

[Chris Ryan]

Can I ask something? I don't remember. When you're saying chips, are you saying crisps?

[Yassi Salak]

Crisps. Okay, well, you know, in the parlance.

[Sean Fennessy]

Potato chips, not French fries.

[Yassi Salak]

The salt and vinegar. The lick. I cried.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, right. The lick. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So want you back. That never made its way to you. Either of you guys. The take that song.

[Chris Ryan]

I don't want you back for good.

[Sean Fennessy]

Want you back, want you back. No, I want you back for good.

[Yassi Salak]

You know they made it to you how?

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm just. We're the same age. I'm surprised it didn't. Maybe it just wasn't playing in on mtv. Asia. I mean, that was pretty sure I heard that as well.

[Yassi Salak]

That was prior to pre trl. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Right. So that's the thing. And that's where like the, like even the several years may not put that on mtv.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm. Where else would I have heard that song? Maybe Z100. Maybe.

[Yassi Salak]

I think it might have been the radio.

[Sean Fennessy]

Maybe the radio. I honestly think it was on mtv. I could be wrong about that.

[Yassi Salak]

I. I did.

[Sean Fennessy]

It was not on 120 minutes.

[Yassi Salak]

I did see this film with a Scottish person and she was. Obviously loved it. But she also was like, this was Harry Styles. Like, I can't express to you. Yeah. She was trying to explain to her daughter, who's 14, who she was just like, I don't understand what. Like a 15 year old girl watching that was so amazing. But she actually liked it. But I. To her credit, but I was like, wow. Watching her with no context. Who is Oasis? Like the whole.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

She enjoyed it.

[Sean Fennessy]

But. And the same in terms of the construction of the band too. And I thought some of that was interesting with Damien Herriman as the, you know, the Svengali who brings the group together. That's like a very familiar American troupe with the Luke Perlmans of the world who do that too. The other thing that's weird. You've seen Anora.

[Yassi Salak]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, Anora opens with this Take that song during the strip club sequence.

[Yassi Salak]

Oh, that's great.

[Sean Fennessy]

This will be the greatest day. You know, like that song that recurs through is also a take that song. So. But take that at the movies is crazy.

[Yassi Salak]

But I did it back in the Renaissance.

[Chris Ryan]

I wasn't like, oh, this is a take that song. But you, Nora star, I mean, I.

[Sean Fennessy]

Knew it was, but I wasn't like, I'm gonna take that. Super fan. I'm not. I couldn't name three Take that songs. But it's unusual that take that would have such a strong presence here in our culture. You know, this movie made a million dollars domestically.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's not what you want.

[Sean Fennessy]

A million dollars on 1200 screens. It costs 110 million dollars. I think it made like 12 or 13 in the UK. So I was just looking.

[Yassi Salak]

We're not done yet.

[Sean Fennessy]

You think it's gonna bounce back after the pot?

[Yassi Salak]

Me and Bobby Wagner are on and Jack Sanders, we're on a campaign babe. And we're gonna get. We're gonna turn the folks around. We're film influencers.

[Sean Fennessy]

So Bobby and Jack, both huge fans of Better Man.

[Yassi Salak]

That's right. My guys.

[Sean Fennessy]

Bob, you didn't love it as much as Jack did, I don't think. It was not like the best movie I saw of 2024, but I'd say it's better than your average movie that makes it into this episode of this podcast. That is for Stan. That's something that is actually an interesting point about this episode, which is that there are weirdly, a lot of good but not great but good movies.

[Yassi Salak]

Dump you area.

[Sean Fennessy]

Which we call dump you area. But as I said, it's not about. We're not dumping on these movies. They were dumped into the landfill of.

[Chris Ryan]

January release, where people traditionally do not go to the theater, hence the $1 million box office.

[Yassi Salak]

You said it was December.

[Sean Fennessy]

It was released in limited engagement in.

[Chris Ryan]

December to qualify for awards. Yeah. So you. Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

It opened wide two weeks ago.

[Yassi Salak]

If only I was on the Academy voting, we'd have a different outcome.

[Sean Fennessy]

One other important Michael Gracie note for my household, which is that it has been reported that he's going to direct the live action Tangled next. So Tangled is the Rapunzel animated feature that Disney put out 15, 20 years ago that I remember taking my little sister Grace to, who's been a guest of this podcast.

[Chris Ryan]

Hi, Grace.

[Sean Fennessy]

When she was like 8 or 9 and is now my daughter's favorite movie. And my daughter.

[Chris Ryan]

That's intense.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, well, younger sister, it's complicated. But Rapunzel is an obsession in my household. Tangled is a very fun and pretty creative movie for recent vintage Disney. And frankly, I'd like to see what Michael Gracie could do with it.

[Chris Ryan]

What's the Tangled setup? So it's. Is it just Rapunzel or what's the.

[Sean Fennessy]

She's locked in the tower.

[Yassi Salak]

She's a girl boss. It's. If Rapunzel was a girl, she's got.

[Sean Fennessy]

More girl bossy qualities. But she's not full girl boss because she's locked in a tower.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, but how does she get out? By the patriarchy.

[Yassi Salak]

She walked in the tower of the.

[Sean Fennessy]

Patriarchy by Mother Gothel. Oh, a mother figure. Oh, it's girl on girl siphoning power from Rapunzel's hair.

[Brian Curtis]

Does.

[Chris Ryan]

How does she. Does she liberate herself with the help.

[Sean Fennessy]

Of a, a man named Flynn Rider.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay, what's Flynn Rider's deal?

[Sean Fennessy]

Flynn Rider is, is a, a bandit.

[Yassi Salak]

He's a, he's, he's a Male ally or he is.

[Sean Fennessy]

He has ally qualities. I in my home often my daughter will say, I'll be Rapunzel and dad, you be Flynn. And then we'll play as Rapunzel and Flynn. Flynn, I think. Is he voiced by Zachary Levi? I think he is. Which is not ideal. So we don't want that casting in real life. I think Mandy Moore is Rapunzel, my old neighbor.

[Chris Ryan]

She is.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. A couple bangers in the soundtrack too. Anyway, Tangled, for whatever reason, it's in that middle tier of like the Princess and the Frog and there's a bunch of movies made in the last two.

[Chris Ryan]

Years and Donna Murphy is Mother Gothel, AKA the instructor from center stage. Where are you on center stage? The.

[Yassi Salak]

I haven't.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's okay. Oh my gosh.

[Chris Ryan]

It's all right.

[Sean Fennessy]

Donna Murphy has an absolute showstopper on the soundtrack to Rapunzel as well. Or Tangled as well. Anyway, I would like to see it. Michael Gracie direct Tangled live action. I need one good Disney live action movie before I die, so maybe that could be the one.

[Yassi Salak]

Can I ask a Sean Fennesee style question?

[Sean Fennessy]

Cool. Sure, go for it.

[Yassi Salak]

What are your guys favorite music biopic and most disappointing music biopic?

[Sean Fennessy]

We definitely did an episode about this, but I can't even remember what it was. Hooked to.

[Yassi Salak]

Listen, you love Rocketman because Elton John is your guy.

[Chris Ryan]

I. I do love Elton John and I just. Sean was took some swipes at him. I was listening and I think that that is a disrespectful.

[Sean Fennessy]

Elton John swipes at the Better man or Never Too late documentary which I thought was banal.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think Elton John is an amazing artist.

[Yassi Salak]

He is a king.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you. So I enjoyed Walk the Line. I've never wavered on that.

[Yassi Salak]

Great movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. So that's where I am. And I. And as a result I also enjoyed a complete unknown same Walk the Line.

[Yassi Salak]

I loved it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, we're going to pod about one of the best ones.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay. So you're going to.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know if you want to spoil that or not.

[Yassi Salak]

Me and you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We can spoil it. I think it'll be pretty soon connected.

[Sean Fennessy]

To your ongoing Brit pop series on Bandsplay.

[Yassi Salak]

No Robbie Williams episode.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sorry, guys. We're going to do a conversation about 24 hour party people, which is more of a music biopic about a label and an era in England.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, like a scene almost.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that one's really good. I mean, you know, there's a couple that are good. I like control I hate control.

[Yassi Salak]

You know that. You know where we.

[Sean Fennessy]

You did mention that.

[Yassi Salak]

Speaking of self serious.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it is self serious.

[Yassi Salak]

Make a photo book, Corbin.

[Sean Fennessy]

We'll talk about that when we talk about 24 hour party people. I don't, you know, like these movies are self serious, but like Coal Miner's Daughter, what's Love Got to Do With It? The sort of earlier editions of this before. Before they became so rote, I think. But it's usually all of those movies just like this movie, except in this case, it's a CGI chimpanzee are built on that central performance. And if the person embodies and captures the thing that you like, the way that Joaquin does in Walk the Line or the way that Timothee Chalamet does.

[Yassi Salak]

Or the complete unknown Val Kilmer in the Doors movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, my God.

[Sean Fennessy]

That movie's not very good. But Val Kilmer is incredible.

[Yassi Salak]

But it does that thing where it's like so not good that it transcends into this piece of art that is so singular and wonderful because it's crazy.

[Sean Fennessy]

What about 8 mile?

[Yassi Salak]

Does 8 mile count if the person plays themselves?

[Sean Fennessy]

Good question.

[Yassi Salak]

It's a good one, though.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it counts.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's not an Eminem story. You know, he's not. He doesn't become Eminem.

[Yassi Salak]

Right. It's kind of fictionalized.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a fictional. It's loosely adapted from his life, I still think. Very good movie.

[Yassi Salak]

I loved it.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

Important Mom's Spaghetti Babe hits hard still. I like Amadeus.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not different version of music biopic, but it is. That's a good one. Yeah. There's down for Glory musician music. Like that's like good one.

[Yassi Salak]

The Gary Busey Buddy Holly Story.

[Sean Fennessy]

Pretty good. Gary Busey's very good in it. Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

I like Love and Mercy.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that's good. The Brian Wilson.

[Yassi Salak]

Oh, I haven't seen that.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, it's nice. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that's a good one, that one. And on that one also kind of breaks the mold in terms of the way the story is told. La Bamba. That's a good one.

[Yassi Salak]

La Bamba's great.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's been some. I think, most of the best ones. Yeah. We're naming a lot of movies from the 80s and 90s, you know, like, it's hard to find recent stuff. What about behind the Candelabra?

[Yassi Salak]

I didn't see it. Liberace.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, Liberace. That's a great movie. No, on the Soderbergh episode, you're. You're dissing.

[Chris Ryan]

I like it. But It's.

[Yassi Salak]

You love Elton John, but you don't love Liberace.

[Chris Ryan]

No, no, no, no. I just thought, you know, that it was good.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

I think it's over. Indexed on the Soderbergh worst one.

[Yassi Salak]

Last Days. I'll say it. For me personally, most disappointing for me. I almost walked out of the theater. I love Mr. Vincent, but what are we.

[Sean Fennessy]

Isn't that one the kind of quasi Kurt Cobain?

[Yassi Salak]

Kurt Cobain one?

[Chris Ryan]

No.

[Sean Fennessy]

Kind of similar to the 8 mile thing, except not portrayed by Cobain, obviously. I don't love it. Last Days there was like a.

[Yassi Salak]

What felt like a 12 minute scene of him, like on heroin making Mac and cheese. And I was like, he does look.

[Sean Fennessy]

He does look like Kurt.

[Yassi Salak]

He does. Great. Great casting.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

It's not the best movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Tell you what I don't like is Elvis.

[Yassi Salak]

Didn't see it. Not interested.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I would agree though, Austin Butler is very good in it, so. I mean, Back to Black is the most recent. Like, I. I was so offended.

[Sean Fennessy]

That one's a bummer.

[Chris Ryan]

And the way that it. I still can't believe.

[Sean Fennessy]

Bunch of BAFTA homs for that movie. Did you see.

[Chris Ryan]

Listen, you can't.

[Yassi Salak]

Those were for Amy Winehouse, not for that movie. I didn't see it.

[Sean Fennessy]

But Marissa Abella will be back in Black Bag.

[Yassi Salak]

Very excited about the hot girl from industry.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

Among many hot girls. But.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, well, one of the hot girls. But like, she is.

[Sean Fennessy]

She's the leading hot girl from industry.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

Love her.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's just not a great. It often produces exciting performances and also often produces bad movies. It's just like Better Man's not a.

[Yassi Salak]

Bad movie, but they want it because they make money at the box office. Not just Sean Fantasy.

[Chris Ryan]

It's fun to watch all the people recreate moments that, you know, you weren't there for. Like, listen, the Aretha Franklin biopic was really bad. When they start writing Respect or arranging respect in the studio, I was like, it's respect. Yeah, you do, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know what's an interesting example of this that is now 10 years old, which is crazy to think about, is Get on up, the James Brown movie.

[Yassi Salak]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Which I think is kind of a mess of a movie, but has this wild Chadwick Boseman performance in it and is worth it just for that. Yeah. It's not ideal. Should we pivot away from Betterman? Anything else you want to say about it?

[Yassi Salak]

No, I loved it. Go see it in the theaters. Let's respect Robert Williams.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Jack Sanders said before we started Recording better than a complete unknown.

[Yassi Salak]

I apologize.

[Sean Fennessy]

You agree?

[Yassi Salak]

I loved a complete unknown. I know that's not a popularly held. I also argued with my Scottish friend who's like the biggest Bob Dylan shout out Chloe. I was like, I think you're mistaking what this is like. You think you need to understand that this is a fun time at the movies and not a piece of art, like. And if you go into it that way, it's so fun.

[Chris Ryan]

I complete that note. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah, of course.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't have a lot bad to say about.

[Yassi Salak]

Did Timothy Chalamet learn guitar and how to sing? And everyone's impressed by that. Yeah. So did all my ex boyfriends. Cool. They're not amazing. And deserving of their own biopics. Many people learn how to play guitar and sing.

[Sean Fennessy]

How many of them have won the best actor Oscar?

[Yassi Salak]

That's what I'm saying.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not very many.

[Yassi Salak]

Step up.

[Sean Fennessy]

All right, let's pivot another movie. Another example, I think, of a good movie that is sort of dumped, but it's also maybe just smart programming from a studio's perspective. That's one of them Days. Which came out Last Friday the 17th, which is directed by Lawrence Lamont, written by Syrita Singleton, who was the showrunner on the last season of Rap Shit on Max, produced by Issa Ray, notably, who created Rap Shit, and starring Keke Palmer, Sza, Maude Apatow and Katt Williams, among many others. This is a movie that feels like it was Teleported in from 1998.

[Yassi Salak]

100%.

[Chris Ryan]

In the best way.

[Sean Fennessy]

In the best way possible. Extremely fun. I've seen a couple of comparisons to movies like Friday. I've seen Greg Iraqi's Smiley Face as a comparison point. I think a lot of Bill Murray buddy comedies from the 80s, you can see. You can see a lot of the Romeo Michelle sprung to mind while watching this. Obviously, girls trip is an influence on the movie Bridesmaids. Bridesmaids, it's about two friends who are roommates who are late on their rent and need to make money all across one day. That's basically the whole plot of the story. Kiki and Sza are the friends.

[Yassi Salak]

It's like the plot of Friday basically with like two tweaks or whatever.

[Sean Fennessy]

We gotta get money, otherwise we're gonna get kicked out of our place or killed by a gangster.

[Yassi Salak]

Large gangster.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. And I don't know how deep a conversation this needs to be. This movie's got super funny set pieces, great cameos. The jokes are good. We have mentioned when will Kiki Palmer be, like, elevated into a place where that she deserves to be in. This is like a perfect use of her talents.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay. Can I say one little thing about that?

[Sean Fennessy]

Sure.

[Yassi Salak]

I love Kiki Palmer. I did love this movie, but I was a little bit like, oh, man, I feel like we almost lose something when she's the straight man.

[Sean Fennessy]

Interesting.

[Yassi Salak]

Because she's so.

[Sean Fennessy]

She can be so funny.

[Yassi Salak]

She's so funny when she's, like, bigger and more wacky and not saying she doesn't deserve. She's. She can totally play the main person. But I was a little bit like, oh, this did handicap a little bit of what she's capable of on the other side.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's an interesting point. Cause she gets moments where that jumps out in the movie, especially when Sza is not on screen and is more trained on Kiki. But that's actually like a. It's an art. It's an art. Like Bill Murray and Chevy Chase and all those guys.

[Yassi Salak]

Totally. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Even Will Ferrell, to some extent. Like, those leading men who get to be at the center of madcap comedies often have to be able to do both. They have to be the relatable everyman, and they also have to have the slapsticky, big performance style. It's a test of a true kind of movie stardom. And she. I think she did it in this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

She also has great chemistry with Sza.

[Yassi Salak]

And I mean, surprisingly great.

[Chris Ryan]

Sza was hilarious. But it is also, you know, she is playing off of Keke Palmer. So, like, Keke Palmer has the ability to, like, ground it and make it make them work. Just like, really funny.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did you know SZA was gonna be an actor? I don't think. Is this her debut?

[Chris Ryan]

Yes, it is.

[Sean Fennessy]

She did a kind of. Kind of amazing.

[Yassi Salak]

For her first one.

[Chris Ryan]

Really, really, really, really funny. Her hot ones or their hot ones, they did like a three person with Issa Rae. Oh, my God. It is genuinely really, really funny.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a good idea.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. No, she was very good. Like, all the bits are good. You know, like the. The biscuits stealing and the. And the payday loans lady who I just want to shout out. Her name is Kila Monterosa Major, and she is incredible.

[Yassi Salak]

She was funny. She stole the show.

[Chris Ryan]

She really, really did.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, she was extremely funny in the last two seasons of Curb youb Enthusiasm. If you didn't see those. She's. She has a great part in the second to last season of Curb youb Enthusiasm.

[Chris Ryan]

But like, everybody, every character and bit that shows up. And every time, like, you know, another obstacle gets thrown at them because that's the structure of the movie. Like, they all work. They're all very. Which is. Which is rare. So I. I was quite amused by that.

[Yassi Salak]

The heed was not taken. Took me out. I love Katt Williams.

[Sean Fennessy]

I do too. His. His part in particular, you know, he's obviously like. Has been. Has had a amazing comedy career tinged with a certain kind of straight talk, social commentary. It's funny when he gets to do basically his act inside of a movie. This happens from time to time. It happened like in. On Atlanta when he had that. That guest spot in Atlanta. But, you know, he's kind of just doing a Cat Williams routine about why you should never do a payday loan. And it's really great, really funny.

[Yassi Salak]

And he's like. I feel like, isn't there like some, like, archetypal story trope of, like, the shepherd or, you know, the goddess? Isn't it the Goddess? And my brother's obsessed with those ways you structure stories and how a person.

[Sean Fennessy]

Comes in the North.

[Yassi Salak]

He calls it the Goddess.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Attempting to get to Valhalla, Williams was the goblin, in a way. In a way, he popped up at.

[Yassi Salak]

Every corner to, like, guide them.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And like, if you. This is a very grand statement, but there is a kind of odyssey, like, approach to this. Like, little. Little Rel Howry is like the. One of the tricksters. You know, it is a hero's journey, truly.

[Yassi Salak]

Also a beautiful LA thing. I mean, I think you're from here. Like, for me, I was like, this is so. All of it is so. From that norms I've been to so many times.

[Sean Fennessy]

La Cienega. That's the best. I love that Norms. Um, it is a very LA movie and it is just a very nostalgic kind of comedy that you could reliably get two or three or four of these in movie, in theaters every year. I think I read that this is the first all black female comedy made by a studio since Girls Trip, which sounds insane because Girls Trip was such a breakout. But this movie did what basically every movie, like, it does every time, which is sort of over. Performs the projections at the box office because there's obviously black audiences that want to go out, show out for these movies. I saw it at the Regal LA Live on Wednesday night. Sold out at 8pm on a Wednesday.

[Chris Ryan]

That's fun.

[Sean Fennessy]

And, like, people want movies like this. They're good.

[Yassi Salak]

They're fun. Okay, can I just say something that your soul is going to leave your body. You neglected to warn me that it ends with their house burning down.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't think I knew when I asked you to do it.

[Yassi Salak]

Just a little too soon, John.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I'm sorry. I apologize about that.

[Yassi Salak]

I was like, not this.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're going to have a lot of traumatic experiences at the cinema because of this.

[Yassi Salak]

I just made me laugh. I was like, oh, really? Interesting.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

Can I say one other thing? That was the one part I couldn't suspend my disbelief for sure. That art is bad.

[Sean Fennessy]

Babe says characters are. Yeah, yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

They're like, this is okay by $600.

[Sean Fennessy]

Would that be the first time that bad art became popular?

[Yassi Salak]

Sure. Yes. Fair.

[Sean Fennessy]

We just talked about Robbie Williams.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, right.

[Yassi Salak]

Oh, my God. The Disrespect Angels is a sensations. Okay, all right.

[Sean Fennessy]

On our Robbie Williams, you're going to be doing great. You're going to be lauded for your.

[Yassi Salak]

Respect, making a lot of appearances on various subreddits. Just so you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

You have been.

[Yassi Salak]

Yes. I should say the one from the big picture where someone was like, yossi Salik's house burned down. Unhappy face.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, that's.

[Yassi Salak]

First heard of her on the big pic episode about Hot Frosty. She was hilarious and I was like, thank you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Gotta be careful receiving feedback from Reddit.

[Yassi Salak]

And valorize that to me.

[Chris Ryan]

Speaking of the Hot Frosty episode, my neighbors also came. They were like, hey, Yassi was very funny on the Hot Frosty. Yeah, yeah. Gnrs. They're listening. They're fans.

[Yassi Salak]

Hi, guys. Thank you so much.

[Chris Ryan]

So it's not just Reddit, you know.

[Yassi Salak]

Thank you for my opportunity.

[Chris Ryan]

Support for Yassi and Hot Frosty is everywhere.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is what happens when you turn your life over to cinema, though. You know, you find new voices and new people.

[Yassi Salak]

I was there, you know, you saw my New Year's resolution. I was hot on letterbox. I was averaging a film a day. And then we had some personal tragedy. But we're back now.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, so you're back to the cinema.

[Yassi Salak]

Tonight, maybe not tonight.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, so the other movies that we're talking about in this episode, I want to know which of the movies you will go see.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay. Okay, great. I love this.

[Sean Fennessy]

So after you depart, Amanda and I will talk about Back in Action, which is on Netflix, which is what stars Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's the number one movie on Netflix as we were recording.

[Yassi Salak]

I love her wine.

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, so you're an Abilene person.

[Yassi Salak]

Yes, because it is very healthy.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, is it healthy or is that just the Marketing, I think. Yeah. No, no, I mean, it's true. I. We talked a lot about this.

[Yassi Salak]

I'm a health influencer, as you guys know. Also. Bobby knows. No, I just anecdotally, you know, R of 1, as they say. I feel better when I drink that.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Yassi Salak]

That's a hubris.

[Chris Ryan]

It's organic. My initial understanding of it was that it's sugar free, which as Sean pointed out, is not possible for alcohol.

[Yassi Salak]

I don't think it's sugar free. I do think it has, like, less tannins. Don't quote me on this. We're. Avalon wine is great. There's three flavors. It's like red, white, and rose.

[Sean Fennessy]

So.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, I'll see it. I actually really like.

[Chris Ryan]

I think we did it as a part of our taste test.

[Sean Fennessy]

I believe we did.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't really like it.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's called.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is it a rose or white? It was a.

[Chris Ryan]

They have both.

[Sean Fennessy]

They have both. We did it. Arguably way too late in the process to really assess it.

[Chris Ryan]

No, no.

[Sean Fennessy]

But we had assaulted our tongues, by.

[Chris Ryan]

The way, so we had like a nice time and then it was so bad. It's co. Owned by Catherine Power, who founded Merit, the makeup brand. And that's how my love affair. Well, now I already liked Merit, but then Vanessa and Merit was listening and sent me stuff. So send some stuff to Yassi.

[Yassi Salak]

Merit. I definitely saw my makeup. Any. Any makeup brands are listening. Skin care. I'm open to packages. I have a P.O. box. Yeah, I'll see that one. What? I can't be a burnt down house.

[Sean Fennessy]

I hope many people send you things.

[Yassi Salak]

As expensive as I told you. Sean, on one hand, did I lose all of my personal belongings that I loved and treasured for 30 years? Yes. On the other hand, I love attention. Conflicting.

[Sean Fennessy]

Real devil's bargain here for you. I think you'd rather have your belongings.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, but you gotta look at. You gotta look at the bright side.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, let's try to get. Let's try to send Yasi as much shit as possible.

[Chris Ryan]

You want some wine too?

[Yassi Salak]

Yes. Cammy, are you listening?

[Sean Fennessy]

Which flavor?

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, Red, white, or rose?

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that how it's described?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, that's.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's what you say when you show up to Napa.

[Yassi Salak]

Me and Amanda are sommeliers. I don't know if you know that about us.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're certainly drinkers.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow.

[Yassi Salak]

The shade.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm a drinker. Like, jumped out, just IDing, spotting my. My own in the. In the wild. Okay, Any closing thoughts?

[Yassi Salak]

What did you want to Ask me more movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Presence, the ghost story that Steven Soderbergh is directing.

[Yassi Salak]

You know that I unfortunately don't. It's not that I don't like them. I'm a weak, weak person who cannot handle horror movies especially.

[Chris Ryan]

It's really horror.

[Yassi Salak]

It's like, it's like.

[Chris Ryan]

Because I'm the same.

[Yassi Salak]

Oh, you saw it?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

It seems like it's riddled with jump scares, which is the one thing I know it's not.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's kind of the opposite.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay then I'll definitely. Because you know my.

[Sean Fennessy]

More of a meditation.

[Yassi Salak]

My girl Julia Fox is in it and we. Stan Julia Fox.

[Sean Fennessy]

Amusing casting.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, she's very funny.

[Yassi Salak]

I'll see that.

[Sean Fennessy]

What about and I Love Lucy Wolfman?

[Yassi Salak]

Speaking of your horror concern, that's going to be a no from me, dog.

[Chris Ryan]

I also skipped that one. Flight Risk, directed by Mel Gibson starring Mark Wahlberg.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's like takes place entirely on a three seater plane.

[Yassi Salak]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

It's like, you know how Mark Wahlberg was like if I'd been on the 911 plane, I would have thought about this. Saved it. Yeah, I would have saved it. Which is like a real Mark Wahlberg quote. It's. They turned that into a three seater plane movie.

[Yassi Salak]

It's like a maga.

[Sean Fennessy]

He said not only would he have saved it, he said it wouldn't have gone down like that. That is the quote. Great. Incredible that you had that. Your fingertips. Bob. Love it. I think about it, no joke. Every day of my fucking sad life.

[Yassi Salak]

God grant me 10% of the self confidence of Marshall's done wonders for his life.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Now he just wakes up at 2am to work out. Do you know about that as well? You know about his schedule too?

[Yassi Salak]

Sure.

[Chris Ryan]

Is that part of your health plan?

[Yassi Salak]

No.

[Chris Ryan]

You know what?

[Yassi Salak]

I came. I had a. We don't have to get into it, but I had a dalliance with him procuring some black market peptides from a sinister gay man in West Hollywood prior to the house burning down. That really set me back on the right path of like you need to find Jesus and stop being so insane.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

With like the peptides, you're, you're, you're still insane. Telling that story here is truly crazy.

[Yassi Salak]

No, I think it's not illegal. But then I was like, maybe just be normal a little bit. I mean it can never be totally normal, but yeah, I'm not counting my protein grams anymore. If that's, that's, you know, if that says Anything that's.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm. I'm not either. I was trying.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Yassi Salak]

We need to be free from the shackles of cottage cheese, you know? I can't take it anymore. I'm tired. We only have so much life left.

[Chris Ryan]

And now it's fiber, so it's just like.

[Yassi Salak]

I'm so tired. Fine. I'm gonna breathe in the toxic air, and I'm gonna have microplastics, and that's fine. I used to do bags of drugs that I found in trailers backstage at Coachella. I'm doing great.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is a. This has been a revelatory appearance by you.

[Yassi Salak]

My dad doesn't listen to this show. Okay? I'm not gonna see that movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. That's the whole list. Yossi, thank you so much.

[Yassi Salak]

Thank you so much for having me. Listen to Band finally pawed with another. I know it's right.

[Chris Ryan]

But you'll be back soon, right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Won't be the one this time.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. Bridget Jones.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Bridget Jones.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. You're on the spreadsheet. Do you know that? Do you have access to the spreadsheet?

[Yassi Salak]

No, and I don't.

[Chris Ryan]

You're on it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I will not be granting you access to the spreadsheet. Are you a Paddington person?

[Yassi Salak]

Oh, my God, babe. Am I okay?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, that episode is. That's a Paddington and Bridget Jones episode.

[Chris Ryan]

Wow.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah, I love Paddington. Do you know how much Paddington shit I bought when I went to the uk? It was like my suitcase was full of Paddington shit.

[Chris Ryan]

Did you know that there was a recent Gap Paddington collaboration? If you're looking. I don't know whether they made adult sizes. It's mostly for kids.

[Yassi Salak]

I can fit into a kid small.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it's very big in my house with the children. So. But it's. It's a good stuff. They made the. A duffel coat. A Paddington duffel coat. It's. It's honestly a good coat. You should check out the.

[Yassi Salak]

I want a Paddington Gap.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sounds like you're headed to the Gap immediately after this recording.

[Yassi Salak]

Is it currently in stores?

[Chris Ryan]

It was for December, so maybe now it's on sale. Also, if anyone at Gap is listening, Yassi would love some Paddington for Gap materials.

[Yassi Salak]

The bear is listening. I would love a hug.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thanks, Yossi.

[Yassi Salak]

Thank you so much, guys.

[Sean Fennessy]

Foreign. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You might say all kinds of stuff.

[Sean Fennessy]

When things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor.

[Brian Curtis]

State Farm is there.

[Sean Fennessy]

They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs. Meaning you can talk to your agent.

[Brian Curtis]

To choose the coverage you need.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Have coverage options to protect the things you value most.

[Brian Curtis]

File a claim right on the State.

[Sean Fennessy]

Farm mobile app and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone.

[Brian Curtis]

Like a good neighbor.

[Sean Fennessy]

State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season Meditations.

[Brian Curtis]

Whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of.

[Sean Fennessy]

Classes built to push you and has something there to adapt with you. Whether you need a challenge or rest, Peloton has everything you need whenever you need it.

[Brian Curtis]

Find your push, find your power. Peloton.

[Sean Fennessy]

Visit1peloton.com okay, we're back. It's just me and you. How you feeling?

[Chris Ryan]

Great.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you feel like you're back in action? You know, you've got two children in your home. You know, you're. You're a lady. A lady in the world.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm pleased to announce that Back in Action is actually an autobiographical film of what happened when I tried to institute Monday night movies with my three year old son.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not going well?

[Chris Ryan]

No, no.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's too bad. I did. I thought of you while watching this new film, which is.

[Chris Ryan]

That's an insult. I thought this sucked.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's very bad.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So this movie is directed by Seth Gordon, who's made some kind of funny movies in the past. Horrible bosses. It's about two CIA spies who retire, played by Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx. They also happen to be married and then they get sucked back into the world of espionage and thrills and MacGuffins. And also it's a funny comedy with lots of hand to hand combat.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought of you because it's also about raising a teenage daughter.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't have a teenage daughter.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, soon you will.

[Sean Fennessy]

One day I shall.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. And the little boy is just like, hey, look at my cool wearable technology. You know, he's not a problem. But Cameron Diaz is working through a lot with her mother, who is played by British Glenn Close.

[Sean Fennessy]

Glenn Close affecting a British actor, not a British woman who is Glenn Close.

[Chris Ryan]

That's correct. And then Cameron Diaz is also trying to work through her relationship with her teen daughter.

[Sean Fennessy]

Here's what. Here are some notes I've made about this film. I'd like to share them with you.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is a Mr. And Mrs. Smith meets family switch action comedy, aka Red Notice for moms.

[Chris Ryan]

I object to this slander against moms here. Okay. Like I am. I, I too am A mom. Not all moms.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not all moms. Unless you're Cameron Diaz in this film.

[Chris Ryan]

Not all moms.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is a sub genre that I am calling Walbergalia.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay? Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's not a flower. It's not a city in Luxembourg. It's a breezy, semi competent, weightless form of wallpaper movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay?

[Sean Fennessy]

There's nothing wrong with it, but the better the talent associated with a movie like this, the more enervating this movie can be. Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx are way too good for this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Unfortunately, they're not good in it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, they're not anything in it. They're not really asked to do anything other than just like, be charming the way they would be charming in a commercial for vodka. That's really what it kind of feels.

[Chris Ryan]

Like they're doing even broader than vodka. Because it's family. Like, it's family and it's supposed to be about.

[Sean Fennessy]

Commercial for potato chips, you know?

[Chris Ryan]

Sure. Yes, exactly.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is a mass consumption product.

[Chris Ryan]

They have like a little bit of that thing that they're reading lines as if they just need to get to the end of them as fast as possible. Which is what I associate with, like, it's how I would.

[Sean Fennessy]

Are you sure you weren't watching it at 1.5x on Netflix?

[Chris Ryan]

No, I wasn't. Can I tell you something? I watched this while taking a bath.

[Sean Fennessy]

And it's the chilling visual.

[Chris Ryan]

You don't. No one asks you to visualize it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Sorry. My mind is so strong.

[Chris Ryan]

And so I would say, like the 30 minutes where I was just like in the bath, really engaged not to.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm really reluctant to explore this more deeply, but, like, laptop perched on the.

[Chris Ryan]

Bath, iPad in the shelving, the shelves that we had built, like, directly on one side of the bath, there's, you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Know, that very famous image. I don't know if you've ever seen it from A Nightmare on Elm street where Heather Langenkamp is taking a bath. She sees Freddy Krueger's hand emerge from the bathtub.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

I picture that. But the iPad appearing from the water screening back in action for you?

[Chris Ryan]

No, it was just. It was set on the lowest little shelf and I watched about 30 minutes when they Go to London. While I had started it earlier and then got in the bath. And that part, I was really locked in. And then it was time to get out of the bath and, you know, kind of do my nighttime routine. So I just kept it going on the shelf. So I wouldn't say that I was like Deeply engaged. But I do think I was watching it the way that most people watch a Netflix film, which is like while doing other stuff.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is one of the best, most recent examples of like the wheat and the chaff of real movie and Netflix movie, because there's a lot of people here who've worked on Hollywood movies, big productions. Cameron Diaz and Jamie Foxx are huge stars. I mean, they are really incredibly famous.

[Chris Ryan]

Cameron Diaz hasn't been making movies for almost 15 years.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's where I'm going.

[Chris Ryan]

So this is so her back in action. You know, this is about her very much.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's framed around her going back into action, not just the character. It's been 11 years since she was in a movie role. She took a long break, I guess, to get married, start her wine business. She has a family.

[Chris Ryan]

She has a family, so she's been spending time with them.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, this movie comes one year after Argyll, and when we talked about Argylle, we talked about Wink Action. There's something going on with this subgenre where this, this is, it's like mutating in real time. This movie is now part of this ongoing thing that is happening where big movie stars in the aftermath of John Wick, and maybe we should have called it Wick, Wink Action, are now participating in these movies. And this movie has a ton of it where you've got either act like famous movie stars or their stunt doubles in lots of hand to hand combat.

[Chris Ryan]

And it's really their stunt doubles because the cuts and the wigs are like very obvious, very obvious in this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

But then now, later this year, we've got Love Hurts, the kiwi Kwan Ariana DeBose movie that feels very similar, though Kiwi Kwan doesn't use stunt double as often as many of these other actors. Nobody 2 is coming out with Bob Odenkirk and then this Jack Quaid movie, Novocain. And you know, there's a long lineage of this stuff, Atomic Blonde and the Wick movies and the Leech and Stahelski movies. But now they've kind of found it into this like, very silly, serious style of action movie. And this is a really low form of it. And it being the movie where Cameron Diaz comes back is just kind of strange because she had a very up and down movie career, but she was a part of a lot of great movies.

[Chris Ryan]

Yes. And very funny, a great comedian.

[Sean Fennessy]

And that's something I want to ask you about is like her career and kind of where she fits in because she's been like Multiple Golden Globe nominee. She's been in some very well, okay, J.

[Chris Ryan]

Lo.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, she was hard to forget. Like she was nominated for Vanilla Sky. You know, I think she was nominated for Being John Malkovich. Like, she was in good movies. Yes, she was. And her career took, like, a more broad comedy direction over the last 10 years when she started doing, like, Bad Teacher and Sex Tape and she was in the Annie musical. And then that's when she stepped away. But through the first 15 years of her career, she was a staple figure. And I started writing down, like, generationally what she was like, lineage wise, what she was a part of. And I was like, is it Carol Lombard or Claudette Colbert? Is it Jane Fonda or is it Diane Keaton? Is it Kathleen Turner or is it Meg Ryan? Like, she was always kind of straddling the line between sex, pot daffy woman. Like, independent minded. You know, I don't need a man type figure.

[Chris Ryan]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

And you know, to her credit, like, she really kind of bounced around between all those kinds of identities. And then now she's just in, like, this flop.

[Chris Ryan]

She's like a mom. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, just like, she looks. She looks great. She looks beautiful. Jamie Foxx, too. He's like 57 years old. He looks like he's 30.

[Chris Ryan]

They look great. And I will say, like, the one time I laughed was during one of those action sequences which are just like, really bad. And so obviously, like, cut and cut around the two actors. And also, like, weirdly violent.

[Sean Fennessy]

Very violent.

[Chris Ryan]

And I'm just like, what did you think? That I was tuning in to watch. But anyway.

[Sean Fennessy]

But can I pitch a theory about that? Yeah, yeah. That these sequences are in these movies because they want you to look up from your phone.

[Chris Ryan]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

That you're, like, not paying attention to the dialogue and then something crazy happens.

[Chris Ryan]

That's when I stopped watching. For the most part. I was just, like, checking in for the plot points, which are bad. Except points. Well, the one surprised me because I was only paying, like, 20% attention.

[Sean Fennessy]

The Kyle Chandler one.

[Chris Ryan]

Listen, stop spoiling.

[Sean Fennessy]

Telegraphed from a mile away.

[Chris Ryan]

I thought it was going to be Andrew Scott.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Because the most, like, if you've seen one spy movie ever, you know what's happening in this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Once again, I watched him get shot in the bath. And then I got out.

[Sean Fennessy]

She wasn't shot in a bath. You were in the bath.

[Chris Ryan]

I was in the bath and you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Were shot in the film.

[Chris Ryan]

And then I got out and I had to do my, like, red light mask, so. And it's really hard to do. You know about this?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. You're. You're conjuring the substance right now, so.

[Chris Ryan]

I'm not injecting anything. It's just me both weeks of, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Did I tell you that Eileen tried to watch the substance last night?

[Chris Ryan]

Oh, no.

[Sean Fennessy]

Didn't go well?

[Chris Ryan]

No. She didn't like it.

[Sean Fennessy]

No. She. After 30 minutes, she said, there's too much injecting going on in this movie.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

And then I said, it gets a lot worse than that.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, no, it does.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think she bailed.

[Chris Ryan]

The injections were fine, but, you know, I lived through a lot of that. Anyway, I. I was doing my mask, my red light and blue light mask at once, so it's kind of, like, hard to see the screen, you know?

[Sean Fennessy]

So you were doing them while the movie was on?

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. It's very respectful.

[Chris Ryan]

I mean, I was, like, washing my face. I was brushing my teeth. You know, I was doing all of.

[Sean Fennessy]

The things AirPods are. No. Oh, no, no. AirPods.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah. The good reminder nerd. Yeah, those had some ash in them, so they're gone. Okay. It's fine. I had washed them already, you know, so they weren't performing at the highest level. So I missed the. I was surprised by the twist, but I tended to be like. I was like, okay, you're doing another junkie action sequence. I can look away. The only one I did watch was the one where the teen daughter is watching it, and I guess the son is too. And at one point, Cameron Diaz. And I do actually think it is Cameron Diaz who headbutts someone because they club. No, I would have said this was, like, at the rest stop.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Chris Ryan]

And I do think that she's headbutting. And then the teenage daughter is like, mom. And Cameron Diaz, like, while moving, is like, honey, she's fine. You know, it wasn't that hard or something. And I thought that was funny, and I laughed. And it was just. That was like, the one glimmer of, like, real Cameron Diaz. And then it went away, and she had to, like, feel anguished because her mom was Glenn Close, who was an MI6 officer, and. And then sent Cameron Diaz to boarding school. So then she was CIA. Why couldn't this just be American?

[Sean Fennessy]

I think Glenn Close wanted to have some fun. That's the impression I get. Well, also, you've got Andrew Scott as the MI6 officer. And so the way they came and.

[Chris Ryan]

I guess, like, London tax credits, perhaps.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, perhaps it did get us Jamie Demetriu in the movie. I don't know if you are familiar with him. British comic actor. His sister Natasia is in what we do, in the Shadows and is absolutely hilarious on that TV show. Both of them are great. He's innocent in this movie. This movie is very bad. Glenn Close, you didn't see, I assume because you were on leave, Lee Daniels, the Deliverance, did you?

[Chris Ryan]

I did not.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is a horror movie that Lee Daniels made that was released on Netflix in September.

[Chris Ryan]

It was good. You liked it?

[Sean Fennessy]

No, it's terrible. But you know what? I shouldn't say that. It's not terrible. It's just wild and ridiculous. There has not quite been a horror movie like it before, but it's almost entirely all black cast, except for Glenn Close, who is a woman in the Deep south living within a black community and affecting a black community attitude. And it's funny and weird and stupid and it's just a lot. And she's. She's. She's having fun right now. She's doing whatever she wants to do, knowing that she will never win an Academy Award.

[Chris Ryan]

You think it's never now?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, if you keep taking on parts like Back in Action and the Deliverance, you will not win and Hillbilly Elegy.

[Chris Ryan]

Which I haven't forgotten.

[Sean Fennessy]

Very strange.

[Chris Ryan]

This is, like, really, really bad. And I thought a little bit of Spy Kids Bobby while watching it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Damn. Shots fired.

[Chris Ryan]

Well, I mean, it's the. The parents were spies and the kids, like, at the end, sort of save the day. The kids aren't involved. But that's the problem. It's like, it doesn't quite get to Spy Kids, but it's trying to have, like, the family tone. But then it's also trying to do weird, fake, super violent stuff like. What are we doing?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Spy Kids has way more charm than this. Yeah, of course.

[Chris Ryan]

Yeah, it sucks really bad.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is the true dump. You are a candidate of this discussion today.

[Chris Ryan]

Two thumbs down.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, well, great seeing you.

[Chris Ryan]

Thanks so much.

[Sean Fennessy]

Gonna bring in CR now, I think. How do you feel about that? You want to say anything about Presence? You've seen Presence, right?

[Chris Ryan]

I. I have. It was great. And. And thank you to the kind people to Neon. Right. Who sent it to me, like, three weeks after Cy was born. And I did watch it, but, you know, my brain at that point, I have like an elevated. There's a reason I'm not gonna sit in on the conversation with you guys. But I liked it. I mean, you know what I like? Soderbergh tries things, and it's a very just My guy trying things again very much is.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'll talk about it with Chris now, along with Wolfman and Flight Risk. Thanks, Amanda. Let's go to cr. Chris Ryan is here, headed to the Super Bowl. Congratulations.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thanks, man. You're always so benevolent about your praise of Philadelphia and Philadelphia sports.

[Sean Fennessy]

Tricky, tricky super bowl for a lot of fans.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I understand.

[Sean Fennessy]

Unless you're from Philadelphia or Kansas City, we say congratulations to you guys.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that these are two of the four best teams in the world.

[Sean Fennessy]

Agreed? Agreed. Well earned, no question, but not the most exciting. But I'm happy for you. I'm happy to have you here in dump you area. It would not be dump you area if you were not here on the pod with me. And we've got three titles to discuss in a short period of time. You got to get out of here. You got another pod to do. What are you talking about?

[Amanda Dobbins]

On the watch today, we're talking about severance and we're talking about the agency, and we'll probably just talk about Vic Fangio and whether or not he can legally become our fathers.

[Sean Fennessy]

I see. In the meantime, speaking of fathers, let's start with Wolfman.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You take your time, man. Okay, Andy can wait.

[Sean Fennessy]

All right. Thank you. I appreciate that. I know that's not how you really feel, but I appreciate you saying that. Wolfman is a story about fathers in many ways. This is the new film directed by Leigh Whannell. This is his, I guess his third.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Consecutive movie for Blumhouse upgrade, Invisible man, and now this.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, his fourth directorial feature. He got his start as a writer working with James Wan many years ago. You may remember him from the film Saw, where he was one of the victims in that movie. Wolfman is an adaptation of Wolfman. It's one of the most legendary universal monster movies that we have. What Whannell did with the Invisible Man I thought was fairly ingenious. One of the last films released wide before COVID hit that movie did pretty good business and I think very smartly centered the lead monster into the villain role of the movie. This movie sort of attempts to do the same thing. It stars Christopher Abbott, Julia Garner, and it's a very contained, constrained, intimate horror movie. It's not done well at the box office and has not gotten good reviews. And yet you saw the film, you texted me, and what did you say?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I said I liked it. And what I think, I mean is that I think I can make the case for it. Okay, is this the substance for guys who care about macros?

[Sean Fennessy]

I have a totally different Read on this film, but please fire away.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think I can make a couple of different, like what this movie is about in theory arguments more than I can make an argument about why it might be an enjoyable film to watch.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

A bunch of the movies we're going to talk about today feel like leftover Covid movies that like, are two handers, three handers, limited sets or very isolated sets. So this is shot in New Zealand. A couple of the other films we're going to talk about just feel very like we got a room for you guys to go into after you test and we'll shoot it and we'll fix it later. This is like, I think it was very much. At least the story itself feels rooted in that experience, whereas the other ones feel like they maybe suffered from. Or the especially one of them feels like it's suffered because of that. But yeah, like, I just feel like this movie could be about a monster movie about killing your dad, a movie about the impossibility of connection with anyone other than blood, or a movie about blue collar cosplay gone wrong.

[Sean Fennessy]

The last one is a good bit. I'm not sure it's in the text. My reaction to the movie, which I don't think is very successful for a variety of reasons, is that it's a decent drama about not fucking up your kids. One of the core ideas of the movie that opens with Abbott's character as a young as like a 10 year old boy traversing the forests of the Pacific Northwest with his father who is mindful of the dangers of life.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You could say that, yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's a sort of a paranoid about what could happen. And I guess the implication is, is that his wife has died somehow. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Apparently there was a cut scene from the movie where she has ms, I think, or als.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. Yeah. And so that has created a sense of isolation and paranoia in this father figure who then hands it down to the Christopher Abbott character. You know, through a series of phantasmagoric events, we learn that there is a lycanthropo disease going around in this part of the Pacific Northwest. Chris Robert's character has to go back with his wife Julia Garner and their young child.

[Amanda Dobbins]

To save their marriage.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, to save their marriage.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Because she loves working too much.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. She's a journalist.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's like the San Francisco Chronicle or something. Um, and she keeps getting scooped by the Times. It's an amazing scene where she just walks into the apartment. She's not using AirPods or headphones. She's like on the phone and she's like, are we just gonna get scooped with it by the Times again?

[Sean Fennessy]

Would you say that that's how you feel listening to competing TV pods?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Um, no, I don't. I want everybody to succeed. And I also just think that if you just do your thing, the people will come.

[Sean Fennessy]

You actually do believe that, and I appreciate you saying it out loud.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you feel that way about film pods?

[Sean Fennessy]

I used to be so competitive, and now I'm like, we got what we do. And I feel good about it, actually.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There's only one Amanda, you know, honestly.

[Sean Fennessy]

True. That is how I feel. There's no one could possibly replicate whatever's usually happening in that chair. And God bless her for it. The problem with the movie for me, ultimately is that it's not scary.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

We can debate whether or not it's effective as a wolfman movie, which is often, like such a heavy metaphor for the sort of feral nature of masculinity and our inability to communicate. And so we turn into animals and all these things that, you know, you can find all going all the way Back to the 41 Lon Chaney version of the movie, which is an excellent 70 minute classic monster movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's been really hard to make a good werewolf movie and especially a good wolfman movie. There was one, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago that Joe Johnson directed starring Benicio Del Toro. Yes. Which has some cool monster effects, but is more of like a chamber piece and more of a historical story. And I don't think works quite as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There's the Mike Nichols, Jack Nicholson one.

[Sean Fennessy]

Wolf. Of course. I think An American Werewolf in London is probably the best loved of the more recent vintage, but that's going back almost 40 years.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm a big fan of Dog Soldiers. I mean, we're getting into just werewolf movies, not wolf man movies, but wolf.

[Sean Fennessy]

Just like normal guy turns into a wolf man thing is hard to do. Now, this movie, the actual makeup effects are good, but I didn't like the transition. Yeah, it's a kind of a slow transition into the wolf man and it becomes much more about. You know, I heard my friend Elric Kane said this on his podcast, that this reminded him a lot of the Fly, where Brundle fly and the fly, like very slowly starts to become a fly and Christopher Abbott very slowly becomes a wolfman in this movie. And I just wanted to see him just be full wolfie, you know, I wanted to see him be teen wolf.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

And he never does that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There was like a moment in the beginning of the movie where, so the Julia Garner character, the Christopher Abbott character and their daughter Ginger, or, you know, they're on their way to his late father's farm, which he hasn't been to in decades, they get lost. And a mountain man who is also living there, who I take it to be like, the kid who was like, the son of their family friend. And, like, the radio chatter gets in the truck and all of a sudden introduces this element of, like, mystery because it. You can't quite tell if this guy's friend or foe. He's sort of on one hand, seems to be mocking their urbane snowflake kind of tenderness, but is also like, you should be happy about that because that means you've had a good life and, like, you're not, like, made hard to the world. And that guy leaves the film quickly. And I thought that the rest of the movie kind of. There was nothing wrong with the performances. I think Abbott and Garner are two of the kind of, like, finer actors of their generation in a lot of ways.

[Sean Fennessy]

They're a big reason why I was super excited.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And Abbott brings a ton to, like, the early scenes. And even you can tell it just goes for it in the transformation. He's like. I watched hours and hours and hours of animal videos to try and get, like, the. The gate down. But there was something kind of like, they needed another thing in this movie. They needed something that, like, demanded that the two adult characters interact with or something. Like, there was something missing from that element. And like you said, there was something missing from the scares. There was, like, two good set pieces, but they're kind of devoid of suspense.

[Sean Fennessy]

Fence the car and then headed onto the top.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The car in the greenhouse.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that was very effective. I thought the two best sequences of the movie were the opening sequence with the sort of the hunting spy tower and the fear of kind of what was below. And then that sequence that you just described where they come across this guy who he has.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I've seen other people ask this, but. So we can just talk about these openly, right?

[Sean Fennessy]

I guess so. I mean, this movie's gonna be on streaming in, like, a week.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Other people have mentioned this, but why, if the guy is like, I'm so. You have to understand, like, everything could be taken from you. To Blake's dad in the first scene is like, everything can be taken away from you. Why does he have him in this incredibly dangerous, remote part of Oregon?

[Sean Fennessy]

I think he's just trying to teach him to be a survivalist. That was my impression Was that you gotta see up close what you're up against.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I wouldn't say that that's my parenting style.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

But try to avoid wolf contact wherever possible. Nevertheless, I think, you know, the other, the other challenge is just, just Julia Garner's just too young for this part. You know, she's like. Yeah, she was 28, I think when they made this movie and she's the daughter of an 8 year old kid and she's a high powered journalist. Like, I just don't think I really bought their relationship. I didn't really buy her. She's a really, really talented actor, but she's in an interesting pivot point of her career where she's played kind of like the trickster younger woman.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And now she's going into full blown.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like, I'm in my 30s.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I can't have it all.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, well, I mean, she doesn't ultimately in this movie for a variety of reasons, but you know, I would have liked for this to been better, especially because you and I were both, we were both really enthusiastic about upgrade, which did we see together at south by.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't think we saw it together, but we saw it at the same south by Southwest.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I heard the next Megan is supposed to be upgrady vibes.

[Sean Fennessy]

Interesting. Yeah. Terminator style.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that sounds exciting. And Invisible Man I thought was ingenious. And so this is a bit of a step down and that's really unfortunate.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did you notice that in this movie, Abbott's character is like all Carhartted out in the beginning, like, but like fashionable Carhartt?

[Sean Fennessy]

I did.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then by the end of it, he's wearing a US Marines fatigue shirt and has become wolf. Like he's gone from the, like, you don't get this. He's gone from the like, you can buy this.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're kind of throwing fits territory here. You know, Shout out to throwing fits. Like it's like a man. What a man's wear can tell us about the man. You're, you're, you're, you're giving us some, some Derek Guy dye workwear.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I think it's interesting that this guy is like an unemployed writer who's wearing all of the like accoutrement of like a working class, like I get after it guy.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, I see.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

This was class commentary about my culture is not your costume.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But then by becoming the wolf, he actually earns his. His wardrobe.

[Sean Fennessy]

Can I pitch something at you? I feel like if you could, you Would take the wolf like you. If you could become a wolf man, you would do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It would have been an amazing version of. This is like guys who opt in to being the wolfman.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's kind of like getting black pilled.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But for feral activity. Yeah. Wolf pilled. Okay. You want to. You want to move on?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

Speaking of Wild wolf's flight risk.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

We saw this film together.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This movie eats absolute shit. Like, this movie might actually be a crime against cinema.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's very bad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There's open and naked use of AI in, like, the first.

[Sean Fennessy]

You think that moose was AI.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It looked like the moose or like an animal from, like a really bad Coke Christmas commercial where they're like, we used AI to make this.

[Sean Fennessy]

This was something I was saying when I was talking about the brutalist AI controversy, where I'm just like, this is happening in movies all the time and we just don' because the filmmakers are not telling us. And now we're getting to a point where things are appearing and you're like, huh.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess it's like, that's not a moose. So is it like cg? Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, was it the same artists who built Thanos, you know, drafting this moose?

[Amanda Dobbins]

These craftsmen are listening to the big picture.

[Sean Fennessy]

Why am I catching strays on this shitty Mel Gibson movie? Mel Gibson directed this. This movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And let me just say so eats absolute shit. Crime against cinema. Like, etc.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Down the list.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Didn't. Didn't move an inch during the entire process.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was riveted. Yeah. I was riveted knowing it was bad.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But I. You and I are both prone to getting up to go to the bathroom during a movie. Neither of us.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, you were like. I was like, you want a candy before we start? You bought tickets. I'll buy. I'll buy the food. And you're like, you know what? I plan on getting up. I heard this isn't very good.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I didn't read or.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, you didn't.

[Sean Fennessy]

I didn't have a single Sour Patch Kid that night. This movie stars Mark Wahlberg, Michelle Dockery, and Topher Grace. This. That was the aspect of it that had me going in, hoping it was going to be good. When I saw the trailer at Cinemacon, I told you and Amanda this is a cool idea for a movie. It's a pretty good contained. And we were still in sort of the post Covid environment. I was like, I get what this is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is a movie that was made probably in 2022, maybe even 2021. And it was because there were a lot of protocols and restrictions. So the studios were looking for scripts that could be made cheaply and in contained environments, like you said at the beginning. And this one takes place largely on a four seater airplane. Yeah, it's about a U.S. marshal who needs to transport a witness in a Mafia case.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Essentially, you can tell it's a Mafia case because they're testifying against a guy named Moretti.

[Sean Fennessy]

Moretti, yeah. So Moretti has done bad. Topher Grace is his accountant. He's given Charles Grodin in Midnight Run, but not really.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you think the mob still has accountants like that? Or it's like some, like, square pencil pushers, Like, I move money around for the Mafia.

[Sean Fennessy]

You think they've deployed AI to do their accounting?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think they've just figured out, like, you know, this. This took down Capone. Let's be a little careful.

[Sean Fennessy]

Fair point. In the process of this transport from, I guess the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think it's called wilderness of Alaska, Alaskan tundra. And now I don't know where the.

[Sean Fennessy]

Anchorage to eventually get to Seattle to testify against Moretti in the case that. That the U.S. government has been building against him. As they are about to take off, the pilot gets on the plane. That pilot, of course, is portrayed by Mark Wahlberg. Is he a pilot? He is. Is he the pilot? He's not. He is, in fact, not just a hitman sent to kill this testifying witness, but he is an absolute sociopath who is there to plunder, pillage, and destroy both of these people that are on the plane with him. This is the most committed Mark Wahlberg performance in several years. I wouldn't say it's a good Mark Wahlberg performance, but every time he talked, I was like, what is going on here? Yeah, this person is a crazy. They're some of the most vile and aggressive threats made in this movie, which.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I didn't see in the original script. This has been discussed a little bit online. But this was a blacklist script. Jared Rosenberg, I think, wrote it. And pretty, pretty, like, solidly built. Yeah. And what it lacks is the constant threats of sexual violence that Mark Wahlberg's character spouts, which is just definitely, like an interesting wrinkle to throw on it. Wahlberg wears at one point a toupee under a hat, which I guess is supposed to be either this hitman's act.

[Sean Fennessy]

Of vanity or is he's in a disguise.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's in a disguise, but when he's bald, it's quite obviously a bald cap.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Like, no, it's not. He shaved his head.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Mark Wahlberg shaved the front and back of his head.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. I read this. Mark Wahlberg's shaved his head and it looks like a bald cap because he has an enormous head.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

But that's just his head and that's one of the reasons why he's a movie star.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And did he say why he did it or what was about the character?

[Sean Fennessy]

The part.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, what part?

[Sean Fennessy]

I guess just that this guy's an absolute crazy person and there's some sort of false equivalency to bald people.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't really know. A really strange movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

A movie that I desperately wanted to know what was going to happen, even though I knew I would be disappointed by its conclusion. But the entire time was thinking over and over and over again about all of the silly decisions that the Michelle Dockery character is making and her like, unwillingness to either tase Mark Wahlberg's character to death or into submission for the entirety of the like. The idea of being on a four seater plane with an absolute sociopath who's talking.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Who's taunting you and letting him just hang there and figure out a way to escape is ridiculous. Michelle Dockery. Interesting times for her. One of my faves, Lady Mary from Downton Abbey.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Fantastic. In the film the Gentleman.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. And you know, I think she's in the. She's also in a kind of a pivot point of her career.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's done a fair amount of TV.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, she's done a lot of TV. She's done network TV in the U.S. she was just. I was just reading last night that she was in a Steven Knight miniseries in the uk. I guess they don't even call it miniseries. It's a series, a six episode series about music in the 80s. Last year this town, which I never.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Saw it has not come out over here.

[Sean Fennessy]

I've tried my best to see it or to talk about it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

To see it. Yeah. Jason Manzoukas and I were just talking about.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, really?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It looks really cool. When is this town coming? I'm like, damn, dude. I don't like. It's about the two tone ska movement and Birmingham.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. Which sounded really exciting. So she's obviously still doing cool stuff. She's a little saddled with some tough script situation here. You know, her American accent, not always the greatest in the world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There is a. I said to you, I think after we walked out like that had Shyamalan vibes. Like the way people talked and the sort of Oddness of the characters. Yeah, yeah. She. I mean, for people who want to see Daiquiri and good stuff. She's in the Gentleman. She's in Godless, which is really incredible. Scott Frank, series Western. Yeah. Topher. I mean, Topher Grace. Well, let's. Let's actually. Let's do this. When the film ended, not. There was some light applause in the theater we were in. Yeah. As the. Directed by Mel Gibson card flashed. I don't know if it was in direct relation to Gibson as a filmmaker or just the satisfactory ending of the film for the theater that we were in.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I think.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it's like, I guess maybe.

[Sean Fennessy]

They were just celebrating his ambassadorship to Hollywood, which President Trump recently granted him unknowingly, apparently, to Mel Gibson. Did you know that? That he didn't know that was coming?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I didn't know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did you hear what his response was?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I saw that he was like, daddy's home or Daddy's back. And he's taking the belt to, like, here's the thing.

[Sean Fennessy]

Mel Gibson's personal history is downright disgusting.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

He always had a good sense of humor. And his response to the news that he had been granted an ambassadorship was very funny, which was, does it come with a residence? Because his house had just burned down in Malibu. That was his public statement about this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You have to laugh. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Mel Gibson, probably the single weirdest directorial filmography in movie history. I'm going to read to you now the films that he directed. Let's do this in order here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

He breaks out in 1993 with the man Without a Face, which I saw in movie theaters.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I completely forgot about the existence of this film. This is a huge Premiere magazine movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Massive movie at the time. Young Nick Stahl as a young boy who comes across a badly burned man who he learns to. To love and teach him how to have empathy or whatever. Totally middling drama follows that up directly with Braveheart, one of the biggest movies of the 1990s, a Best Picture winner, a film that very quickly got etched into the history of American movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

He waits a solid nine years to follow that film. Up with the Passion of the Christ, the most successful independent movie ever made. Extraordinarily violent portrayal of the death of Christ. He then a few years later makes Apocalypto, arguably his most accomplished movie. Controversial movie, in some ways, still a success. And then his career goes down a really dark, terrible path. After he gets pulled over in Malibu, he makes a bit of a comeback as a director with Hacksaw Ridge, which is widely acknowledged by the Academy, I think was nominated for best Picture. Andrew Garfield was nominated for best actor in that movie, a war film, in 2016. And then nine years go by. Nothing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And now flight risk.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, 2016-2025 is an interesting time in American history.

[Sean Fennessy]

It certainly is. You could make the case that this is a well timed return for him.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

You could say it's odd that he wasn't given a chance in 2017. Apparently the resurrection of the Christ is coming. His sequel to the Passion of the Christ.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Are you serious?

[Sean Fennessy]

Film he's been working on. Apparently it's coming this year.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you think he did Flight Risk to prove that? Like you can ensure me. Like I will.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's a good theory. I think it's a good theory. I believe the Resurrection of the Christ he is funding.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So because it's worth mentioning that while he has been in, let's just say director jail, whether that's true or not, he has been making four to five straight to P to vod B movies a year.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Bandit, Hot Seat, Confidential Informant, Desperation Road Boneyard. Now he has made one very good film which is Dragged Across Concrete. I will say he and Vince Vaughn are amazing in that. That was 2018, but for the most part has been in the wilderness for the last decade.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't. I think with the exception of Father Stu, which is when he first collaborated with Mark Walsh Wahlberg a few years ago, I don't think he's made a studio movie because Drive Across Concrete is not a studio movie. Not since the Expendables 3. Oh, no, I'm, I'm, I'm wrong. It's actually Daddy's Home 2, when he and Mark Wahlberg connected, which I know is your favorite film of 2017, where he, where he played his dad. Have you seen this?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I have not seen either. Daddy's Home.

[Sean Fennessy]

Daddy's Home too stars Will Ferrell and John Lithgow as father and son and Mark Wahlberg and Mel Gibson as father and son.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it's just meet the parents.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know. I haven't seen it. Okay. Is Flight Risk the worst movie ever directed by an Academy Award winner? It's gotta be up there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's a really great question. How in deep do you want to get into this question? I'll just call up best directors.

[Sean Fennessy]

Should we revisit the early works of John Ford and just see how those 1920s silence stack up to Flight Risk? It's gotta be way up there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it's impossible to tell just based on, like looking at the names because I don't have their filmographies in front of me. Haggis has made some shit, right? Has Paul Haggis never made.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think Crash is his worst movie. Like in the Valley of Ella is not a bad movie. Anyway, maybe some fodder for the listeners at home to think about Flight Risk. I wouldn't recommend it. And yet tremendously watchable. This is the power of dumpy worry. This movie's doing fairly well at the box office.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And that's the thing, is that this is exact. It's a real best of times, worst of times part of the year where all of the big films from the previous year are being endlessly circulated and celebrated. But deep down, secretly, that little demon inside of you just wants to watch Wolfman and Flight Risk.

[Sean Fennessy]

What about Presence? How do you think that figures into the equation? Because it is a genre movie. It is from a legitimately talented best director winner. Two movies from best director winners this month, and Steven Soderbergh, who's the guest on this episode of the show along with you and Yossi. It's written by David Koepp. This is the second of three collaborations between Steven Soderbergh and David Kep, who is, I think you could say very much in the conversation for most successful screenwriter of the last 35 years, et cetera. Written many, many, many hit films over the years. Lucy Liu, Chris Sullivan, Kalyani Lang are the stars of the movie. It's a movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Joanna Fox is also in it as a real estate agent.

[Sean Fennessy]

How'd you feel about her performance?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I thought she was born to do it.

[Sean Fennessy]

She was very funny. A family becomes convinced they are not alone after moving into their new home in the suburbs of movies. Quickly learn that this is a perspectival movie seen through the eyes of a ghost. And since Steven Soderbergh is a camera operator on all of his movies, he is literally the ghost moving through this house. The movie is set almost entirely inside of this house, just like all these other films we're talking about here today, which are very intimate. What'd you think of Presence?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Awesome movie. Incredible movie. Really. Actually quite, quite moving at the end. Not unlike like no Sudden Move, which is one of my favorite movies of the decade that Soderbergh directed during the great Max straight to streaming run in 2020. I feel like this really lingers after it's gone and you start thinking about the distancing techniques that he uses formally. So the idea that there's not a lot of traditional coverage of. Of what would have been family dinners, family arguments, family moments of intimacy. Like you don't get like, close up, medium, nothing over the shoulder. It's all like this wandering eye, which you know is a ghost because of like the sort of setup to the film, like, because of like the promotional materials and the ideas. But it really started making me about like self surveillance and about the idea of like, how much intimacy we have with each other without really knowing each other because you know where people are and know what they're doing. And like the. The son who turns out to be something of a bully is sharing with his mom the photos he's taken of this victim, victimized girl and laughing about it. And it's just such a thought provoking piece over the course of what, 82 minutes or something like that. And on top of it all, it's like a rock solid screenplay that has like, really intriguing elements of like, what's Lucy Liu's character's deal? And Chris Sullivan's. A fan, does a fantastic job as a dad of the year. And I don't know, I just love this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's really, really good. And I think the screenplay is pretty smart. So Soderbergh told me that it was his idea and he brought it to Cap, and Cap fleshed out the story of the family.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Was he like, I want to do a ghost story from the perspective of ghost.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. And it was like all in one house. This house is. You know, he seemed to have like the really the bones of the story clearly. But I think they make a good choice by signaling a lot of things about why families are the way that they are without coming out and saying them. For example, in the story, Lucy Liu's character has clearly. Whether she's committed a crime or there's some sort of like financial fraudulence in play, we never really get the details of it. Like, that's actually not the point. The point is that there is all of this subterranean activity even within families, even within the deepest relationships. And the only people who would know about them are the people who are in the house. And even then, what you keep from your kids, what you keep from your spouse, we saw there's that one sequence where Chris Sullivan's character goes outside to have a phone conversation on the balcony, which is like riveting. Even though you have no idea what he's talking about.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, he's calling like a lawyer friend to be like, hypothetically, if X, Y or Z was happening there's so many scenes that essentially build this statement that if this is a horror movie, the horror movie is being a family.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The horror is you're in this house trapped with these people and how much can you actually ever really know another person?

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So the son who's supposed to be a star athlete, seems to be something of a sadist. The daughter, who while is. Is like in recovery from a friend of hers losing her life to a drug overdose also is still using. The mom, who is like this alpha driven lawyer, has borderline inappropriate affection for her son. And then the father is just bouncing around trying to make sense of it all and basically living a life of utter loneliness. And it's like a pretty staggering portrait of a family made all the more so because of the brevity of the film and also the. The visual language that it's speaking in. Because you're not getting the traditional, oh, this is this guy's standalone monologue scene that's on his face and this is his award reel. It just makes you think so much about film language and it makes you feel. Think a lot about family and death.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's very sophisticated and very simple at the same time. Which has become really Soderbergh's trademark over the last ten years in particular. And I asked him about this and I couldn't tell when I asked him about it whether or not he had seen these movies. But it made me think a lot about Nickel Boys and Here, which are also movies very much about perspective that are shot in confined circumstances for the most part. And Nickel Boys specifically is also a first person movie. These are not the first two first person movies ever made, but they're both really audacious and upend our expectations of a traditional narrative movie. It's not your, you know, usual like, whodunit, the way that like the lady in the Lake is. And this, this is like, to me, this is kind of charting a path for what movies for adults can be, which is that like this movie was made very modestly, you know, like he shoots and edits these films as he goes. Yeah, he did it clearly in a matter in less than a month. They need a good script and a solid cast and you need to be. Just be able to execute. He talked about like the shoes he had to wear to walk through the house while wearing the movie. You know, like there were very, very specific choices that were made that you wouldn't. You'd really have to think hard about. But it's a movie that I think does reward thinking Hard about it. The actual, like, mystery of the movie, I think is fine. It serves its purpose. If you're going in expecting jump scares and a deathly presence with a ghost story, it's not quite that kind of story. So you should adjust your expectations.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, but it does have a pretty cool twist.

[Sean Fennessy]

It does. It does anyhow. Really good.

[Yassi Salak]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was going to ask you. I mean, I'm sure you discussed this with him to some extent, but where your head is at on this period of Soderbergh this. I think that he'd had his straight to streaming era of like, the Laundromat and High. High Flying Bird. High Flying bird or High Flying Bird? High Flying Bird.

[Sean Fennessy]

The Laundromat. No. Sudden move. Yeah. The Meryl Streep film which is escaping me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

People will talk.

[Sean Fennessy]

People. People will talk.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let them all.

[Sean Fennessy]

Let them all talk.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let them all talk.

[Sean Fennessy]

And then Kimmy and Kimmy was his first movie with David Kapp. And I think the question. I think the new conversation starts with Black Bag. Black Bag is coming out in less than two months. It's a spy thriller starring two huge movie stars in Michael Fassbender and Cate Blanchett, also written by Kep. And Focus is putting it out. This is his first theatrical release in since. Is it Logan Lucky? I mean, is that possible?

[Amanda Dobbins]

You might be right.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's a long time. You know, that's almost 10 years that he hasn't been in movie theaters. So I'm curious to see if that begins a new stretch.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Well, also, I haven't seen it. I can't wait to see if he, knowing it's going into theaters and knowing it's getting a wide theatrical release, comes back to the middle formally a little bit.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, we could use him in terms of those kinds of movies right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Now, but I don't know if that interests him. And maybe he's just like, actually, I. I'm out here and I'm like, creating a new kind of visual language to make narrative films here. Not a new one, but a one that I'm teaching people to, like these odd lens choices and, you know, like these kind of like doing away with certain aspects of coverage and the crutches you think you need to get through a scene. I don't have them.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm not sure. I mean, the thing. The thing that we can say is that since he came out of his retirement, I guess Unsane was his last theatrical release, by the way, which is in 2018. So since he came back with Logan Lucky in 2017. He's made 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 features in seven and a half years. He's also made Mosaic and Full Circle and Command Z. So three TV series and these films.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So I guess Magic Mike's Last Dance was a theatrical release, so I'm misspeaking here, but it was commissioned to be a streaming only movie that they decided to put into movie theaters. I don't know, it's a fascinating stretch, but it never felt like he was really in the zeitgeist with any of these movies. And I think that's maybe the thing he doesn't care about as much.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. It's also been of cool to think about how we're gonna look back on this era of movies in general, because I feel like I bang the drum for a few of these films pretty hard. But none of them have the cult classic vibe that Haywire does.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's true.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I don't know why that is. I don't know why it is that like a film that was released straight to max or a movie that's, let's just say, buried somewhere in the Netflix library that was really provocative like the Laundromat or beautiful like.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, you know why? It's because most people don't know these movies exist because they went straight to streaming, but wouldn't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Conversely, like, they're just at people's fingertips. Like, if you have. If you have the service that shows White Lotus and the service that has Stranger Things, like, I know.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, I feel very strongly about this. You got to put the movies in movie theaters to make them real movies. I did ask Soderbergh about that. I think if a movie like Kimmy had gotten a month in movie theaters and gotten commercials during the NFL playoffs, there would just be a different idea of it in people's heads and it would be more likely to achieve that cult status that you're talking about now. It doesn't mean that all of them do. Magic Mike's Last Dance did get in. I think people were kind of like, this doesn't feel totally fleshed out. It's okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. It seems like you guys wanted to do these three dance sequences and then built a movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Exactly. But Kimmy, no sudden move. Let them all talk high flying bird, Laundromat. These are all good movies. They're all interesting, they're all dynamic, they're all different. They're not the same. And yet they don't have this big weight. It doesn't feel like presence is necessarily gonna have this big weight either, but it's very much worth people's time. You know, Soderbergh, he's in his 60s. He's still as interesting as a filmmaker as he's ever been.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Any other thoughts?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No. Let's get to your conversation with him.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thanks, Chris.

[Amanda Dobbins]

To be continued, Sean.

[Sean Fennessy]

Let's go to my conversation now with Steven Soderberry. Steven Soderbergh is here, back on the show after a few years. Steven, Presence is your 35th feature. I'm not sure if this has been announced to you or if you're even aware of that. Yeah, 35. How do you feel about that?

[Brian Curtis]

I'd have to go back and see how that's being calculated. Is Che one movie or two?

[Sean Fennessy]

I think I counted it as two.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay, that's good. Did you put behind the candelabra on there?

[Sean Fennessy]

I did.

[Brian Curtis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Can I tell you some famous filmmakers? 35th films, please. There's not a lot of examples here. Bergman's, I believe, was Cries and Whispers. Hitchcock's was Notorious. John Huston's was Escape to Victory. Jean Luc Godard's was King Lear. What do you make of 35? Not a lot of people get to 35. It's a huge accomplishment.

[Brian Curtis]

Well, you know, I'm in the volume business, so it works for me. But I think one of the reasons that I've been able to work at that rate is the. The internal philosophical debate that a lot of young filmmakers have to engage in about whether they are writer directors or whether they are directors. And I decided that I was not a writer director that I had written, but that I was not a writer. And when I realized that and accepted that, everything got better, the work got better, my life got better. And so if that wasn't the case, Bergman being the exception, but he's a freak. You know, nobody's well is that deep. Like you can't come up with something good every nine months. So I just decided I want to work with writers. And, you know, that's why I can move quickly from one thing to the next.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's an elegant segue to my next question, which is that this new film presence is the second of three David Koepp scripts that you're adapting into a feature. You've both worked in Hollywood for decades, but you had not worked together right up until Kimmy.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, we knew each other. We've known each other since 1989. David's movie Apartment Zero was at Sundance the same year as Sex Lies. So we'd known each other a long time, and I knew who he was before that. He already had a very strong reputation as a talented young writer, and I'd read scripts of his before Sundance, so we became friendly after that. Almost worked together in the mid-90s on a ghost movie, strangely, that we abandoned because we couldn't figure out the third act. And stayed. Friends stayed. And then a few years ago, he was living in London, and I was visiting London, and we had a drink, and he said, hey, I've got this idea about a woman who's a voice analyst for one of these companies, and here's something that she thinks is suspicious. And I said, please write that. And that kind of got us. That kind of got us going, you know, and it's a risk when you work with someone that you've been friends with for a long time. I've seen relationships not survive a movie, but we managed to sail through the first one. And so I pitched him a second one, Presence. And when that was finishing up, he said, I just finished this other script. What do you think? And I said, I want to do that, too. I'm. I'm very anxious about the fact that I'm going to have two movies in the marketplace within six weeks of each other, both written by David. And even though they're radically different films, I just. I'm concerned that for the. For the, you know, niche audience members that are aware of my presence as a filmmaker, one a year they can handle, but, like, two and six weeks is just really pushing it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I haven't seen Black Bag. I'm really looking forward to it. I do suspect that there's a kind of a theme of surveillance in all three of these movies. Is that fair?

[Brian Curtis]

Well, in the case of Presence, there is certainly eavesdropping, and you are certainly a voyeur. The difference, I think, is that is the intention behind that point of view. And in the case of Presence, it's clear very early on it's not threatening, and it has no intention to harm anybody. And so you sort of take it on. Your concern about your complicity is altered a little bit, because it's clear this thing is vulnerable, and this thing is kind of afraid also. And so I hoped it would not make you feel as uncomfortable as you might if you felt like this, had bad intentions.

[Sean Fennessy]

When you say you pitched it to David, did you pitch him this concept of this kind of perspectival ghost, or was that his construction? Where did that come from?

[Brian Curtis]

I gave him a handful of pages to read that basically just set up the idea and described how the point of view would work. And that was it. I mean, I said, this thing is in the house. We are the thing. And it starts out vacant. A family moves in and the family is really fucked up. And that was it, literally. And he built out all of it. I didn't know who it was. When I got to the end of the first draft that David wrote, I was surprised.

[Sean Fennessy]

So when you're thinking of a concept like that, are you mapping in your mind already specifically how you're going to technically execute on that concept when you come up with it, or are you waiting until you get to the script to say, okay, here are the challenges and here's how I'm going to physically realize this script.

[Brian Curtis]

It's rare for me to know exactly how I want to shoot it in its, in its, you know, larval stage, but in this case there was only one way to shoot it. So that was kind of hardwired into the idea itself. And I liked that it was, it's a real movie idea. This doesn't work in any other format, even television. Like, it can't be a play, it doesn't work as a book. Like, it's a real movie idea. And those are, those are rare. But normally if I've responded to a piece of material and I decided I want to do this, there's then a process of how do I approach, what director do I need to be to execute this in an optimal way? What are the rules? What's the toolkit? I'll start watching things that are in the same space to look for ideas about what I want to do or what I don't want to do. But this was rare. Like it was. It can only be this.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'd love to hear more about the actual physical making of it. Are you, what kind of camera are you using? Is it. Is this the iPhone with lenses? Are you holding the camera and moving through the space as you're making it?

[Brian Curtis]

It's a Sony A7, which is, which looks, which has the sort of form factor of a still camera. It just looks like a still camera, but it's got a, it's got a big sensor and it's the same sensor that they use in their, their high end movie cameras. It is attached to a Ronin stabilization device which looks like a U basically with the camera sitting in the middle of it. And I'm walking around with this in my little ninja slippers that have a rubber grip on the bottom, which was weird.

[Sean Fennessy]

I had a question about what shoes you wore while you were making it. I was genuinely curious because you can't make noise.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah. I had to be as quiet as I can and I really did need grip because I'm going up and down these stairs a lot. And so it turned out to be, you know, the perfect tool for the job. It looks, it looks stunning. I just, I just came back from checking a print at the Dolby Theater here in New York and it's just, I. I just can't believe how good the image looks generated by this, this camera. And so, you know, for me, this, this emergent developing technology is. I mean, I just don't know how I would execute the film without this specific gear. Like, I don't anything any bigger than that. I can't get back into the closet or I'm going to fall down the stairs. And I wanted it to have a certain visual quality. I did not want it to look like something that was shot inexpensively. I wanted it to have a very velvety kind of feeling. So it's just, it's, it's. I feel so lucky. I've seen this gamut, you know, of going from only film to this. Like, it's incredible.

[Sean Fennessy]

It made me think a lot more about the physical act of filmmaking knowing that someone was holding something to execute making it. But also it made me think a lot about how you. The sort of like blocking and choreography inside of one space like this that you have to do. Was it meaningfully different from how you would do it on another feature because of the way you need to see the frame?

[Brian Curtis]

Oh yeah. I mean, I'm usually operating the camera so I'm used to having a somewhat intimate relationship with, with the cast, but this was next level. And you know, my. All of the, all of the busted takes, all of the takes that are not that are NG as they're written on the script notes were because of me, because I made a mistake. And so that was a new. That was new is feeling that sort of level of performance anxiety. But it was also really pleasurable, you know, because it was, it was, it was a real dance. It was choreography. And that's kind of fun to figure out. I wish. Normally I come out the other end of making something and feel like I picked up a couple of new things that I can bring to solves that I can bring to the next project. I mean, you're trying to learn. You're always trying to learn. As of right now, I'm not sure what, what I can take from presence to use going forward. Because it was so specific in its demands and its requirements and they don't really fit most things. And so I don't know, maybe two years from now I'll be trying to solve a problem and I'll go, oh, I can steal from what I learned on Presence, but right now I feel like it's kind of a one off.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought of two other 2024 movies while watching Presence. I don't know if you've seen either of these movies, but. But there's Romel Ross, Nickel Boys, and there's Robert Zemeckis here. And they're both. They're different executions from your film, but they have some things in common as well. And like, other than lady in the Lake, I couldn't think of another movie that used a similar strategy that was a studio movie basically, in the last hundred years. I'm sure there were some that you looked at. But it's interesting to me that it does feel like form, even in mainstream movies, is kind of changing pretty dramatically right now. And the way that the camera moves and what the audience sees and how they see it, like there's still somewhere else to go here. And your movie really revealed that to me. Like, what do you think accounts for that and some of these changes in the last couple of years?

[Brian Curtis]

I'm not sure. And I'm also not sure that there isn't a sort of a line or a tipping point in terms of film grammar beyond which you start to lose people. You know what I mean? Like, you take. Let's just talk pure staging. Like there's nobody on the planet who has the pure staging ability of Steven Spielberg. If you made it any more complex, it would become incoherent. He is right up against, you know, how far you can go in terms of visual complexity and still have people understand where they are and what they're looking at. So I do think there's a sort of narrative equivalent of that. I'm just. That's a purely visual, you know, context. But I'm wondering in terms of story form and all that, if. If there isn't. And it's sort of like language. It's like written language. There have been people who've experimented with it, but basically you've got to, for the most part, put sentences together that people can understand. You know what I mean? And I do think it's sort of similar with film. Now, that being said, I think it's absolutely mandatory that we keep pushing at that line because I don't think. I do think there's always a little bit of wiggle room and a little bit of a workaround. And so I hope everybody will. I hope filmmakers will still continue to push, like, well, what's possible. You know, the line is whether the audience taps out or whether they lean in. That's really what it comes down to. And the good news is, you know, we have. We have a few markers to judge, you know, where people are tapping out and when they're leaning in. Part of it is economic, is box office, and part of it is cultural. You know, how people write about films and what the people who write about films think, you know, So I. I like. I like thinking about that and trying to place myself somewhere within it, you know, the limey. I'll never make anything, I think, as purely abstract as the limey. And while I'm happy that people seem. The people that have seen it seem to like that film. Nobody saw that film like it was. It's not a commercial movie. It's just not.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, though, because you are able to maintain, like, genre elements often, or at least like narrative frameworks within all these experiments that you do over the years. And I think maybe. Maybe people who are film fans are more willing to go on journeys with someone like you or someone whose name they know and say, well, at least I'll be willing to see something different. Like, do you feel like you are, like, actively leveraging that at this stage of your career?

[Brian Curtis]

Oh, no. Well, I mean, not consciously. That's not something I would think about, but I'm. I'm very. It may shock some people when they look at the list of things that I've made to hear me say, I'm very, very conscious of the audience and I think about them a lot. And you talk to anybody that I work with. If we're trying to make sure that we're doing the best version of something, I will often invoke the audience and say, I don't think the audience is going to understand X unless we make that more clear. Or I think we're going to lose the audience when that character does. Yes. And we need to. Or how do we feel about that? You know, at the same time, I can't be completely driven by what will give them pleasure. Meaning. If I see the thing a certain way, and I think it has to be that way, but it may mean sacrificing a certain section of the audience, I will sacrifice that section of the audience to make it the way I think it should be. You just have to be smart about the scale of the thing. You know, when I think about the laris, which I don't feel for me creatively is entirely successful. One of the things that frustrates me about it is we should have made it for really cheap. It wasn't hugely expensive, it was like mid range budget. But I look back on it and go, I should have made. You know, it shouldn't have cost 40, it should have cost nine. You know, it would have been better for the movie and people would have, I think, been more able to sort of take it on, you know, because it looked and felt like a big studio movie. But what it was doing in a plot, character, atmosphere, sense was not at all. And so they were kind of confused. And I. So, you know, I try to be smart about that because if you miss too many times in a row, you know, it starts to get difficult.

[Sean Fennessy]

I want to ask you about that, but then one other thing kind of more formally in the movie that I thought was very interesting that I want to hear you talk about is the editing style, which is not typical. You don't have your typical dissolves or match cuts or things that you see filmmakers deploy to kind of get the narrative momentum of the story going. It has this kind of abrupt style, cutting from sequence to sequence. Why did you make that choice?

[Brian Curtis]

It seemed like the easiest and simplest way to indicate the passage of time. And if you were to go back and analyze the. The length of the black gaps between scenes, they're calculated very specifically to give you a sense of how long it's been since the last scene. Some of them are very, very fast, which means we're talking a couple of hours. And some of them are long, which means weeks. And so it was sort of problem solve where I felt, yeah, what are the transitions between scenes? Like, I gotta figure that out. And then once I decided, okay, I'm gonna cut to black, I thought, oh, great. That's an opportunity to actually help the audience understand the grammar of the filmmaking and the storytelling here. They will, at a certain point, whether they can articulate it or not, they will begin to understand that the length of the black has meaning and it will help orient them. So, you know, those kind of things are fun to think about.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it was really interesting. Presence is getting a theatrical release and you've just come out of this six year period where you're primarily making work for streaming services. Magic Mike's Last Dance did play in theaters, but I believe was not originally intended to correct. What did you learn about how those films and series were received in the wider world by going to streaming the way that they did.

[Brian Curtis]

Oh, well, I didn't. But I don't read anything anyway. So my only way. My only. My only method for judging how things are going is the degree to which people say yes or no to me. That's the only way I can tell how it's going. And so I just don't read stuff. I think it's probably not good for you. The year of Traffic and Aaron Brockovich was so off the chart that I decided this would be a really good time to just stop reading anything that has your name in it, because it's only going to get worse. And that's. I've stuck to that, and it's working for me.

[Sean Fennessy]

That is interesting. Well, let me ask you this. Even though you haven't read this, there's an accepted wisdom that films that get theatrical release have a stronger chance to kind of imprint in the culture because there's maybe a marketing budget. There's the feeling amongst audiences that the movie is more real, that it is not a streaming movie that can then disappear in some way. Does that make sense to you? Do you buy into that?

[Brian Curtis]

That makes sense to me. I think what I did because it's sort of related to something that I'd learned through experimentation. In this case, the release of Logan Lucky, in which we spent all of our money on everything except buying TV ads. Turns out if people don't see an ad for your movie on tv, as opposed to, like, on a social media platform, they don't think it's a real movie. And I think this is sort of that thing there. There's a kind of legacy, you know, street cred that comes with putting a movie out in theaters. I mean, we know empirically for a fact that a movie that has had a theatrical life, when it shows up on a platform, draws more eyeballs. So what that says, possibly, is that we value that. We place a value on that experience that we may not be consciously aware of. I happen to think it's really good for us to be in a theater together, just watching one thing at a time. That I think it's just good for you. I think it's a good brain reset to look at what? Stare. To stare at one thing for a couple of hours with 300 other people. I think it's good for you. But there must be some value, whether it can be quantified or not, or this wouldn't be true, that people don't perceive movies as being Somewhat having some weight that's different than things that don't go out theatrically and the fact that they draw these eyeballs. So, you know, the good news is lately, in the last year or two in the, in the indie space, but also to some extent across the board, young people are going to the movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

That is very exciting here in Los Angeles. It's kind of amazing what's happening with young people, but that's a whole other topic. Thinking of the movies you've made in recent years, I love the little callback to the Meryl Streep character's novel that's in Presence. That is a great little bit that I didn't realize until I watched it a second time. But it did have me thinking about let them all talk and high flying bird Laundromat, Kimmy, no sudden move. All these movies you've made that. I'm the kind of guy who likes to have all the filmmakers movies on a shelf somewhere so that I can feel like I've got the complete filmography. And even last time we talked, I think we were talking about how the recut Kafka and a new version of Schizopolis and all the potential for all of these things to be out in the world. And I look at the Soderbergh shelf and it's incomplete right now. And I'm like wondering, do you think about that? Do you care about that?

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah, I mean, it's, well, I think about it in the sense that I have a shelf too, and I have, I hope it won't make me seem too self oriented to, to admit that I have one copy of, of the films that I've made on a shelf with the other films. And it is, we, you know, we're filling the gap with the box set which is coming, but there's, there's these series of films for which there are no physical copies. And it is weird. Like, it's, it is weird. I, I, I can't really justify, you know, calling Warner and saying, I personally would feel so much better if you guys would put these out on Blu Ray. But you know, it's, that's, I, I will argue, I can argue the other side, which is conversely, most of the disks on those shelves are things that either are still impossible to find on streaming or don't exist in that world in the optimal format that I've acknowledged now that almost everything is available and in pretty high quality. And that I died when I, you know, I went through and did a Swedish death clean of my discs. Because I'm like, if I want to see that movie, I'm going to order it up.

[Sean Fennessy]

Interesting. Okay. My colleague Amanda is a huge fan of your culture diaries. We've talked about them before, but she had a very specific question which was, you have a real knack or affinity for female authors and seemingly based on those diaries and especially sort of, you know, literary fiction written by women. And she's just wondering, like, where do you get your recommendations? How do you decide what fiction to read?

[Brian Curtis]

It's very serendipitous. Talk to friends, read reviews. You know, sometimes a good artwork can. Can do the trick. Reputation, you know, so it's. There's. There's no real logic to it, but I find. I find novels in particular to be really, really immersive in a. In a way that's unique. I don't know, they feed. They. I get something from them that I don't get from any other, you know, form. Creative form. So I don't know why. I hadn't really thought about the. I hadn't genderized my list.

[Sean Fennessy]

She did. Not me.

[Brian Curtis]

Yeah. The way Amanda just did. But I'm. I'm really just going there. There. I'm just sort of floating in a direction, but without any real intention, you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Know, I'm sure you've been asked about this today, so I apologize. But, you know, David Lynch's passing crosses my mind, I think. Did you know him at any point in your life?

[Brian Curtis]

I met him, yeah. I spent an afternoon with him, like 20 plus years ago. He was really fun. It's a real loss. But what a great body of work he left behind for us to continue to enjoy. You know, it's impossible to duplicate, and he was impossible to imitate. And so, yeah, he's one of those people.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's why these shelves matter. This is what I'm saying, Steven. You know, I've got the shelf at home, and now I can go home and revisit the work tonight.

[Brian Curtis]

There you go.

[Sean Fennessy]

We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. You watch things all the time. Have you seen anything great lately?

[Brian Curtis]

Wow. I tell you, I really liked September 5th.

[Sean Fennessy]

Please tell me what you liked about it.

[Brian Curtis]

I had no notes. I just thought it knew exactly what it was and it knew exactly what it was doing. And so when I say I have no notes, I mean, wow. He didn't make a single mistake from my point of view. And I found it fascinating. And I thought it was just really smartly executed. And I feel like that hasn't gotten as much sort of chatter as some other movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a great recommendation. Steven Soderbergh, thanks as always.

[Brian Curtis]

A pleasure. And to be continued, I hope, hopefully.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thank you, sir. See you soon. Thanks to Steven Soderbergh, thanks to cr thank you to Amanda and thank you to Yossi. Thanks to Jack Sanders and our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on Titty's Episode. Later this week, Amanda and I are going to dig into the Brutalist and we're going to rank some best picture nominees with Joanna Robinson. Brutalist. Yay. Nay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you feel like has there been a massive change in best picture ranking since the last time you did?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't want to give away my hand. I mean, scandals anew, bursting every day. So probably by the time we record on Thursday.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Who knows? Research had for us by then.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. How will Emilia Perez be felled once know? We'll see. Will you have seen the film by.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Next Thursday, the second half of the film?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, maybe. Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Am I on the pod? Do I have to? Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

And frankly, I don't care. See you next time.