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- [00:11]
A
I'm Sean Fennessy.
- [00:12]
B
I'm Amanda Davis.
- [00:13]
A
And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Marie Antoinette. And that's such nonsense. I would never say that. We are talking today about the Sofia Coppola choice.
- [00:23]
B
Yeah.
- [00:24]
A
This is the big picture, so of course there would be a Sofia Coppola movie. You have been bursting at the seams.
- [00:30]
B
Yes.
- [00:30]
A
To talk about this movie, to talk about Sophia. As part of this project, we've chosen Marie Antoinette. I think.
- [00:37]
B
Yes.
- [00:38]
A
Most listeners of the show were thinking Lost in Translation. Yes.
- [00:42]
B
Including my husband, who when I told him of this decision, said, I don't agree with that. So everyone at home, if you don't agree, you, you know, are being heard in my household. But you are not in charge because it's now your podcast.
- [00:55]
A
I think that it's very important for you to be the most dominant voice on this episode. The one thing that I will say is I like Lost in Translation more as a film, but I think this is a superior film and an excellent choice.
- [01:07]
B
Yeah. Thank you. Same.
- [01:10]
A
Take it away. Why did you go here?
- [01:12]
B
You encouraged me to. And people will hear on the episode that I think even I reflexively, I knew that, you know, Lost in Translation was Sofia Coppola's crowning achievement. Sort of. She had made Virgin Suicides, but it was her big entrance into Hollywood. It is general, generally the most accepted. She won the Oscar for screenplay, was nominated for director and for best picture. So like. And it's wonderful. I love that movie.
- [01:39]
A
This episode is presented by LinkedIn ads.
- [01:41]
B
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- [01:48]
A
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- [02:05]
B
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- [02:19]
A
You did a great episode of the Rewatchables on it with Bill.
- [02:22]
B
Thank you so much. You know, and Bill actually on that episode identified one thing about why I love Marie Antoinette that we'll talk more about. But I have been thinking a lot about the Quentin Tarantino quote that you mentioned a couple Weeks ago when we were talking about one battle after another and deciding what's the best. And there is the best movie, my favorite movie, and the movie that only I could make. And this is the movie that only Sofia Coppola can make. And it is. It's like the complete Sofia Coppola cinematic universe package. And also just. It's so unexpected. She uses all of the money and clout from Lost in Translation and is one of the great blank checks to make an epic costume drama filmed at the palace of Versailles. Like, unprecedented access with seven wardrobe trucks worth of costumes and an awesome rock and roll, like, post punk new romantic soundtrack about the most reviled figure in French history and makes it a sympathetic portrait and like, all about teen girl shit, and then debuts it at Cannes. That. That is legendary stuff. And that. And. And she does it also in like, a sort of, like, unassuming. It's not quiet, but there aren't a lot of words in this. It's all baked into the filmmaking. So it's so, so deeply Sofia Coppola in a way that thrills me. And it also stars Kirsten Dunst. And that was what Bill observed, which was that you, like, my favorite Sofia Coppel movie does have to be a movie starring Kirsten Dunst. They have, like, have worked together, but that is also, like, my energy. And I love this performance. I like. It's so beautiful to look at and so I love watching it. I love the soundtrack. It just. It rules and it's. And no one else could do it.
- [04:32]
A
So funny to see you in the spot that I often find myself in of kind of like finding all the things that I love and talking about why I love them. I think this is an amazing achievement of conception. Right? She had, like, just a brilliant idea. And we've been talking a lot about budgets recently because of the one battle after another stuff. And like, PCAs never made a movie this big. And this is Sofia Coppola's biggest movie by far. It's not $150 million, but it's $40 million. I think her next biggest movie is probably in the area of $20 million. You know, like the. I think the Beguiled and Priscilla and those films are all somewhere between 10 and 20. But this is an example of when we say, like, what can you do with more, like, why you should empower an artist sometimes. Lost in Translation. I don't know what its ultimate box office take was, but it did very well at the box office, which is one of the reasons why she got to make this movie and to her infinite credit, puts it all on screen because it's such an oral and visual overload. It's just such an incredibly realized execution of her idea that, like, I really. I really doff my cap to this movie, even though it's. It's never going to be, like, emotionally.
- [05:44]
B
True to me, which is also a little bit of what makes it exciting to me is that it is really, of all her movies is like the most girl world, like the most sort of silo.
- [05:56]
A
Talk about.
- [05:57]
B
We need to talk about male influence. Like, you know, Virgin Suicides is narrated by the neighborhood boys. Loss in Translation is Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansson. It's the two characters and, and. And what they can, like, teach each other. Beguiled and Priscilla are about what happens when, like, a weird man comes into, like, girl world or. Or you get a girl gets slurped into a very weird man's world. On the Rocks is about like a dad, daughter relationship somewhere. Dad, daughter relationship. So there are, you know, looming Francis Ford Coppola, like, figures in most of her movies. And there are obviously men in this in the form of Rip Torn as Louis the 15th and Jason Schwartzman as Louis XVI. But, like, they're incidental. They are, like, technically in power. But, you know, Louis xvi, Jason Schwarzman's character is like. I don't know if he's impotent or just, you know, blocked for a long time, it seems like blocked.
- [07:02]
A
I think he's a little picky, a little specific.
- [07:04]
B
Sure. Psychological, you know, and they don't really matter. And so everything that Marie Antoinette, as played by Kirsten Dunst, is experiencing is like, dictated by women. You know, the power figures are her mother and then one of the countesses. I can't remember Judy Davis's character. Judy Davis character. Yeah. They all have, like, very long titles and are pronounced with like, varying degrees of a French accent. So we'll just use the actors names.
- [07:38]
A
Yeah. And played by actresses who have these kind of like, severe and intense qualities.
- [07:43]
B
But. And then. So the rules are laid down by women. She gets approval and companionship, like, from women with, you know, the acceptance. Like, this is famously like one of Jamie Dornan's, if not his, like his first part, first movie part. And he's there as like the hunky guy, but he shows up like 90 minutes in for like 15 minutes.
- [08:03]
A
Huge W for the Irish in this movie.
- [08:05]
B
Yeah, listen. And like, he looks. He looks great.
- [08:07]
A
Very handsome chap.
- [08:09]
B
It is like the rules, the social structure, the Stakes everything. And, and. And really, all of the people around her are all women. And then it's. The concerns are. Are girl stuff, you know, and girl stuff in terms of like, shoes and like, macarons and. And pastries and fashion. But also, like, who's being mean to me and like, who is going to sleep with me or why won't this person sleep with me? Or how does this all kind of work out? It just feels very young woman, like, enclosed in a way that is awesome to me because it, like, it doesn't have any of your shit. And that's. And like, I like your shit. You know, I'm raising the next generation of Bobs, you know, so I. My shit, you know, most boy stuff, I appreciate it. And when I am like submerged in it in a male filmmaker's film, like, you know, I appreciate it, but it, like, there is something special about. I'm just like, look at all these flowers. I really do like flowers that much. I want to see this many flowers.
- [09:17]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think she. I think Sophia is the great artist of her generation in this kind of million.
- [09:24]
B
Exactly.
- [09:24]
A
Like, for, you know, not all female filmmakers are interested in macarons and pink and, you know, Chucks or Converse set. And it has like, 17th century France.
- [09:34]
B
It's really related to, like, to the world of fashion and fashion spreads. I was rereading her archive book last night, and in one of the captions, the captions are just like, hilariously perfunctory. I love this woman so much.
- [09:51]
A
What is an example of that where.
- [09:53]
B
She'S just like, it was nice to have Jamie Dornan in his first film. It's like literally a caption. She just lists people on them. But it's okay. That's fine. She, you know, she has used other languages.
- [10:08]
A
Can I like, dig in a little deeper on that?
- [10:10]
B
Wait, but let me just finish your thought. It says that she. The idea for the color palette of this movie came from a Marc Jacobs show that was inspired by the lottery macarons. And then so it goes from fashion show to this movie to then like every mall in America.
- [10:29]
A
Basically. Very influential.
- [10:31]
B
Yeah, but the, you know, but the fashion and the. And like the art world music of it all. She references, like, photographers a lot and did study photography. So that is her language not speaking.
- [10:46]
A
Yeah. And now full circle with making a Marc Jacobs documentary, you know, 20 years later.
- [10:50]
B
They have been like, friends and collaborators for many, many years.
- [10:54]
A
So I think this movie has quite a lot to say about what women are and are not allowed to do and what they represent and maybe why they are demonized in ways that men are not demonized. And, you know, like I said, an ingenious conceit behind this idea. Even though she very comfortably, like, fudges with the history, you know, like, this is not meant to be a dramatic recreation of the facts.
- [11:19]
B
It is inspired by an Antonia Fraser or Frasier biography that is historical, but it's like a reinterpretation of the Sophia of Marie Antoinette who, you know, who did not say, let them eat cake, reportedly.
- [11:37]
A
So those captions. This is not my belief, but this is something that you hear about Sofia Coppola.
- [11:44]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:44]
A
That the inarticulation is representative of. No, there, there. You know, that, like.
- [11:54]
B
But that's like. I mean, that's both being sexist and, like, not having eyes. Because another thing that Sofia Coppola does in her filmmaking that makes me vibrate with excitement is she is one of the most observant and judgiest people in all the great land. And the judging is communicated through a camera angle. The judging is communicated through what is included and what is seen and what is not seen. And why is this person wearing makeup like that? And why is this shoe here? And why are we looking at something this way? And what is the perspective? So she sees all. And this is like, a pretty vicious movie about everyone involved. And, you know, is definitely sympathetic to Marie Antoinette, but also, like, she really just does, like, disappear in the countryside to, like, read Rousseau in a. Is it Rousseau that she's reading in, like, a pretty stupid way? Like. Yeah, I don't think that particular scene is filmed. Like, they're, you know.
- [13:03]
A
Oh, it's a movie about a princess who's lived in absolute. But, you know, it does not feature her being beheaded. You know, for example, like, there are elisions of truth.
- [13:13]
B
It's not punishing her. Well, it's not elisions. I mean, it's just.
- [13:17]
A
I think you would go to a Marie Antoinette movie expecting to see a beheading. I think that's reasonable to assume that is the thing that people know most about her beyond, like, a me can.
- [13:24]
B
Yeah. I mean, you see the crowd showing up and you see, like, the final.
- [13:27]
A
Wrecked room, and I love that. That's another example of. To me, I'm not criticizing it. I think that is an artistic gesture. It is, like, very considerate and smart. And not showing the beheading is obviously very intentional. It is very purposeful that what we don't need to do is to show a Woman being butchered in the face of this revolution. Now, reasonable people can disagree about that, but I really like that there are a lot of choices being made here. Lost in Translation is an interesting movie because it feels very worked out in real time. It's very naturalistic, it's funny, and it's a lot of fun to watch. But you can feel Bill Murray kind of like making parts of the movie up with Sophia and Scarlett Johansson in real time. It has his antic energy.
- [14:12]
B
Yes.
- [14:13]
A
This is a very framed and imagined and executed film. Like, it is very specific to your point about what we're seeing and what we're not seeing. It feels, it is deeply a tourist, you know, in a way that like, not even. Not a lot of costume dramas are like. Costume dramas feel like they're trying to like.
- [14:32]
B
Yeah.
- [14:32]
A
Adapt a book or hit history. And this being such a. Such a dramatic or reimagining of the world, I feel like is one of the big achievements of it.
- [14:41]
B
Yes. And another thing of it's. You expect certain music cues, you expect certain like, even like character development in a, in a costume drama. And this is a coming of age story in a way.
- [14:56]
A
But.
- [14:57]
B
But she does also then not really pay attention and then is beheaded. Like, you know, even if you don't see it like the, the last, the last shot of, of Marie Antoinette is her saying like, I'm saying goodbye to the palace of Versailles. So, you know it, but it, it subverts everything that someone like me, who grew up on Merchant Ivory movies, like, expects to see in this. In this type of film.
- [15:22]
A
Yeah. We've been preparing for a Daniel Day Lewis episode and I watched A Room of the View recently, which is a very good movie.
- [15:31]
B
It was your first time, right?
- [15:32]
A
Yeah. And I was surprised by how those films don't have energy. And I don't mean that as a criticism.
- [15:44]
B
I think that's unfair to Room with a View in particular, because the field.
- [15:48]
A
Scene, I mean, there's beauty in the film. Swooning, there is a lack of electricity. It is. They're like a very analog film, you know, and this is not an analog film, even though it is a time without a lot. Without electricity. You know what I mean? That's sort of. That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to denigrate a Room of the View, which I thought was good, but this movie feels like it's plugged into something and that's hard to accomplish in costumes. You know, you don't really see that very Often with this kind of thing, I think the soundtrack does a lot of heavy lifting.
- [16:18]
B
Of course.
- [16:18]
A
I think it, like, lights up a lot of moments. It's also very helpful that her taste is so funny because half of it is, here's what I liked when I was 12, right. You know, like Bow wow wow. And, you know, I discovered Gang of Four and all that stuff.
- [16:32]
B
Exactly.
- [16:33]
A
And then half of it is, here's what I thought was cool when I was 26.
- [16:35]
B
And it's the Strokes, which is like.
- [16:37]
A
Which is honestly, for us is great.
- [16:39]
B
I honestly, I had forgotten the Strokes needle drop until my rewatch and I was just like, oh, wow. Like, this really is sort of my, you know, my Rosetta Stone.
- [16:50]
A
Yeah, totally. I mean, that's one of their best songs and perfectly used in this. And there is like, it's. To me, this. The music in this movie always felt like this fine grained combination of here's why I'm cool and here's why I'm sincere, which I think is a good. That's kind of the Sofia Coppola project, Right? Like, she's. She is really plumbing the depths of her experiences and she's trying to, through her characters, show how she feels as a person. That's what all great filmmakers do, Right. Especially writer directors. But, you know, she's like, I'm fucking cool. Like, I'm in the cool stuff. My shit looks cool. You know, my hair is nice. Like. And that is a big part of what she's interested in. That is a big part of what you're interested in.
- [17:28]
B
Yeah.
- [17:29]
A
And this movie communicates that, I think, more than most of the other movies. That's not. It's not there. There is a coolness to somewhere, but that's not what the movie's interested in. Like, that's the two characters. Like, it's a young girl and it's a guy who's kind of like a little. Starting to get a little washed out in his life.
- [17:43]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [17:44]
A
Bling Ring is about, like, trying for that.
- [17:46]
B
Right. It's like the mirror image of this in a lot of ways. Yeah. And then. And you could also tell in Bling Ring that, like, she's not comfortable in those aesthetics. Like, you know, tmz, like the Paris Hilton of it all is not what Sofia Coppola thinks is cool or how she would dress.
- [18:04]
A
Yes.
- [18:04]
B
And so, like, there is a discomfort in the filmmaking that is because it just doesn't look the way she thinks things should look.
- [18:12]
A
I think that's super insightful because she has sympathy for those girls, but doesn't really get it.
- [18:17]
B
No.
- [18:17]
A
Like, she's not. Because she's not of that world. And, yeah, the more recent films are her entering, I think, different levels of abstraction through her ideas. You know, the Beguiled, even On the Rocks, and especially Priscilla, to me, are kind of like late style, you know, where you're like, I know what you're interested in.
- [18:41]
B
Yeah.
- [18:42]
A
No one is better at this kind of production design. Like, you make these movies beautiful. There's a real cleverness to the writing and the framing of especially the female characters. I think Priscilla's very good.
- [18:53]
B
Priscilla, like, is this movie in a lot of ways, on a smaller scale and budget, obviously, and in a later period of life. Right. Like, it is. It's 20 years after Marie Antoinette. So Sofia Coppola is, you know, 20 years on this journey of being, you know, the young woman in a gilded cage with, like, perfect taste. So I find it interesting in a way to watch her, like, revisit, like, the same idea, but now with Teen daughters of her own.
- [19:24]
A
Yep.
- [19:25]
B
But, yeah, I mean, she's got a house style.
- [19:26]
A
It's important to me. Her analog is not in this conversation. For me, my perspective is not her father or Scorsese or even her Gen X contemporaries like Tarantino or PTA or whatever. It's Paul Schrader, where it's like, every Paul Schrader movie's kind of the same movie. It's in a different world, it's in a different time. The person has a different job, but the hallmarks are so consistent that if you only see two, you might say to yourself, like, why are you repeating this idea? But if you see 10, then you're like, well, I'm so happy to be back inside this person's head. And this movie is a very, very elevated example of being inside of Sophia's head.
- [20:03]
B
Last night, when I was, like, getting really wild with the outline, I was like, in some ways, this is like my taxi driver.
- [20:08]
A
You know, it totally is.
- [20:10]
B
Now that you bring up Paul Schrader, it totally is. But it's like, you know, they have. They have some things in common, and then Sofia Coppola would not be caught dead on Facebook, so.
- [20:22]
A
Well, not yet. You know what? When she's on TikTok in five years.
- [20:26]
B
She is on Instagram.
- [20:27]
A
Okay, well. But not. Not like.
- [20:31]
B
No.
- [20:31]
A
Has she reviewed One Battle on.
- [20:33]
B
No.
- [20:33]
A
Did you see Schrader posted on One Battle?
- [20:35]
B
No. Did he?
- [20:36]
A
He did. He said the filmmaking was a plus level. However, I kept waiting For Leo and Sean Penn to die through the entire film.
- [20:44]
B
Okay, well, that sounds like a very Paul Schrader take. It certainly does on filmmaking.
- [20:51]
A
First of all, I think we should say some of the names of the people who worked on the movie, because you're right to point them out. Why don't you do it since you put this together?
- [20:59]
B
Okay. So this was shot by Lance Accord, which is the last Lance Accord movie. Unless Sophia Lance Accord collaboration.
- [21:08]
A
He made a movie called God's Pocket with John Slattery, the actor from Mad Men. That's the last movie he shot. That's over 10 years ago.
- [21:15]
B
He shot, you know, Lost in Translation and also many of Spike Jonze's movies when they were. Because this is after the Spike Jones. Yeah. Spike Jonze is in the featurette for the making of Lost in Translation. He's there at the beginning and then he's not there at the end and he's not there at the Oscars.
- [21:36]
A
Yeah. They are starting to split.
- [21:38]
B
Yeah. Well, yeah, because we've seen Lost in Translation.
- [21:40]
A
Yeah. But Lance Accord shot Where the Wild Things Are after this movie. So he managed to bridge the gap.
- [21:45]
B
Yes. Costume design by Melena Cananero, a four time Oscar winner, including for this film.
- [21:53]
A
Yes. And also for Barry Lyndon, right?
- [21:56]
B
I believe so, yeah.
- [21:57]
A
And A Clockwork Orange.
- [21:59]
B
Yeah, Yeah.
- [22:00]
A
I think she made like four movies. The Kubrick.
- [22:02]
B
Yes. She's also. She's the costume director for Megalopolis. So if you've seen Megadoc, you can see her mask just being like, no, I need to vet like every single person's drape just to give you an idea of the energy. But like, the wardrobe undertaking is phenomenal in this movie.
- [22:18]
A
I think she has also been Wes Anderson's costume designer since like Grand Budapest maybe.
- [22:24]
B
Definitely Grand Budapest, because she comes back for that. And then through Phoenician scheme, she's a genius. Yeah.
- [22:30]
A
A legit genius.
- [22:31]
B
60 people on the wardrobe crew, 7 transport drivers, 10 rental houses near Versailles for all of the storage and everything like that is action filmmaking. But for costumes. No, seriously.
- [22:44]
A
Yeah. This is your Michael Bay movie.
- [22:45]
B
And it's absolutely. I mean, they're beautiful. They're incredible. I wouldn't want to wear any of of them, but, you know, that's the point. And then hair by Odile Gibert, including the very large, who did like a lot of hair for Galliano, which was some of the inspiration.
- [23:01]
A
Okay.
- [23:02]
B
And then flowers by Thierry Boutimi. And I know this because one of another of the captions in the archive was just the flowers were by Thierry Boutimi. It was always a lift when they arrived. I love her so much. You know, her publishing imprint is called Important Flowers.
- [23:19]
A
That's great.
- [23:20]
B
No one's gotten me any of those books. She's got a Chanel book. She's got a Virgin Suicides book. I'm waiting anyway.
- [23:27]
A
Well, one day you'll turn 40 and you'll get them. I think that someone should do a coffee table book about this show with those kinds of captions. I think we should have Chris write captions like that about various episodes we've recorded together. Hell of a cast.
- [23:43]
B
Yeah.
- [23:44]
A
And a very. They're not quite discoveries, but a lot of people at very early stages of their career. You know, you mentioned Jamie Dornan. This is the first time I'd ever seen him, for sure. Gotta be one of the first times I ever saw Tom Hardy.
- [23:55]
B
Oh, Hardy. Yeah.
- [23:57]
A
Black Hawk down is the first time I saw him, for sure. But then after that, this might be the next thing I saw him in some years later. And then Rose Byrne is a huge part of this movie.
- [24:04]
B
Right. Incredible entrance.
- [24:05]
A
She's wonderful throughout the film. She's so beautiful, but she's great in this movie. She's very funny.
- [24:12]
B
Coming all the way from Sweden.
- [24:15]
A
Yeah. I was reading about her character, and literally in the Wikipedia page of her character, she's described as a favorite of Marie Antoinette. And I was like, okay, well, that explains it. And, you know, if you like the movie, the favorite, there's certainly some aspects of that story in here. And then you mentioned the great Rift horn. Mary unfaithful playing her mother. Judy Davis as sort of the countess. Danny Houston as her brother. Phenomenal. In one scene of this movie, two scenes, I guess, basically, you win an.
- [24:40]
B
Oscar and then you use it to have Danny Houston petting an elephant at Versailles. Okay. Like, that is art.
- [24:47]
A
It's a good choice. It's a very, very good choice. Shirley Henderson, Steve Coogan, to British actors, we tend to see in a lot.
- [24:52]
B
Of films like this, Steve Coogan as the ambassador and, like, trying to play it straight and serious. But the fact that you've cast Steve Coogan in this role, like, underlines the absurdity of it all.
- [25:03]
A
But it's a good choice because there is something, especially in the second half of the movie I love, tonally, where it's like, things are really bad in France right now. And her being kept in this little Easter egg, this Faberge egg that has been built around her. And he is one of the only people who is Giving her information that could encourage her to realize what is happening. But he's doing it in such a careful, restrained, don't fire me kind of way that he's well cast.
- [25:34]
B
Yeah. Who else? What other names haven't we said? We've said Kirsten Nuns once, but this is.
- [25:41]
A
Tell me about her performance. What do you like about it?
- [25:44]
B
Well, I mean, it's amazing how young she is in it now, you know, which just because she's kept working and I'm glad to have her, she is.
- [25:53]
A
She's actually supposed to be even younger. Right. Wasn't Marie Antoinette like 15?
- [25:57]
B
Yeah. And when. I mean, they age her down, but it's like a pretty wide age range. A vulnerable, mean girl. Just a mix of all of the emotions that I do think that you feel if you're 15, 16, 17. But, like, you know, you want other people to like you. You also want to edge some people out. There is an obliviousness, but also like a sweetness to everything that she's doing. And just, you know, her face can communicate so much. And this is a film that it's like maybe the ultimate reaction shot film because it just cuts to people either in the crowd or Kirsten Dunst just being like. Or really. Or, you know, they're very, very funny. And then she gets some of, to me, like, true, truly laugh out loud moments. The one when she's forced to say hello to the Contest du Barry because of. Because of how Versailles works. And he's like, there are a lot of people at Versailles today. Like, in her best valley accent, so funny. And then later on, she wants oak trees. The whole oak tree scene is up there for me with her just like driving the golf cart away in melancholia, which is like, I need big trees. How long will that take? And then they're like, hey, you've run out of money. And she's like, I'll take the small trees. And then runs off it. Really. I'll take the small choice.
- [27:25]
A
She's very, very. The choice also to obviously not have her perform a British accent or French accent or everything. Also very wise. And do you think that that made this movie more successful or less successful? Because critically, it's very split, you know, just the whole conceit. Like, Roger Ebert just got it. He gave this movie four stars. He was like, this is a brilliant act of realization. But other critics were like, this is a silly, like, soft defense of Marie Antoinette.
- [27:57]
B
Right. And they were judging both Marie Antoinette as well as, you know, they had the old interpretation. And aren't really willing to get on board. And there obviously is a huge amount of. I mean, not a huge amount, but you can see the parallels between Sofia Coppola, daughter of one of the great American filmmakers, had a rough start in this, in the cinema industry as an actress, and then is now making like her own, you know, concerned with a lot of the things, like, I just likes fashion, which I guess is, you know, completely superficial to some people.
- [28:35]
A
I think it is considered frivolous by some. But in the world of filmmaking, it's hugely important.
- [28:39]
B
Right. So, um, people, I think, are receiving. Some people received Marie Antoinette, the movie from Sofia Coppola, as they received Marie Antoinette, you know, at the time.
- [28:52]
A
Yeah. There's one other thing that you have here that I find really interesting. Oh, the cited influences.
- [29:00]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [29:01]
A
So I had a couple of observations, a couple of questions for you about this. So she cites Kubrick. Barry Lyndon is an obvious perfect match double feature. And especially the characterization of Ryan o' Neill in Barry Lyndon, opposite. You can see huge inspiration points there. This is kind of like the flip, you know, spoiled, you know, person who gets their comeuppance in a lot of ways. Terrence Malick, which is interesting.
- [29:30]
B
I mean, all the Petit Trianon, which is the palace that she moves to at the end when she's, like, running around with the fields. And that little French child is like, petite abbe, I love you, Petite abbe. You know.
- [29:41]
A
Yes. The natural world. Our relationship to the natural world. Milos Forman, which I guess his. His series of costume dramas that he's worked on over the years. And then Ken Russell's Listomania.
- [29:53]
B
Yeah.
- [29:53]
A
Which is his gonzo biopic of Franz Liszt, composer, like, megastar composer. Now, Listimania is also the name of Phoenix's biggest hit, right?
- [30:05]
B
Yes. Which. Well, one of their biggest hits.
- [30:07]
A
Yeah.
- [30:08]
B
And I think that's no. Wolfgang. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Is that album.
- [30:12]
A
The album. Yes. I'm just curious.
- [30:15]
B
Or Wolfgang Amadeus Phoenix, Whatever.
- [30:17]
A
Did Thomas. Did she put Thomas Mars onto Listomania? Did.
- [30:24]
B
I mean, I don't.
- [30:24]
A
Was he a big list guy? How do these things go? I like the idea of them just, like, hanging out after work and talking about this.
- [30:31]
B
This is when they're getting together together. They, like Phoenix. The band are like, in the famous 2003 Lynn Hirschberg profile, like, tied to Lost in Translation, you know, so they're on their way in. Like Phoenix, the band are literally in this film. They are. When, like, the. The little foursome, like the quartet playing music for Marie Antoinette or Phoenix and sue and I believe that they're also from Versailles.
- [31:01]
A
Okay.
- [31:01]
B
Like that. The French kids, they're like kid childhood friends from Versailles.
- [31:07]
A
He is from Versailles.
- [31:08]
B
I don't know whether they are. It seems like a cross cultural exchange of ideas, you know, and they're getting together. That song comes out in like 2008, 2009. I don't want to say she put him onto it. Maybe just a shared interest. Yeah.
- [31:23]
A
I just think that's fun.
- [31:23]
B
Yeah. It's good.
- [31:24]
A
It's good stuff. And I like the idea of Ken Russell being an influence on her. It's not, maybe not something I had thought about before, but does make a lot of sense. And he has also made a lot of costume dramas that break the rules. You know that that's something that is really cool about this movie, is this sense that she keeps doing things that you're not supposed to do. Yeah. What else. What else do you want to say about this movie? It won one Academy Award.
- [31:46]
B
Yeah.
- [31:46]
A
For costume design, which is the most, like, ironic, you know, self realized thing imaginable. That's like, we can only give this girly movie.
- [31:55]
B
Well, let's talk about the like. So this did premiere at Cannes, which, again, is awesome. From everyone involved.
- [32:01]
A
French didn't love it.
- [32:03]
B
They didn't love it. And so the. The legend is, is that it was like, booed aggressively. And like, before we were doing standing ovation meters or whatever at film festivals, it was like, did something get booed or not? Was the. Was the headline takeaway? I think that everyone's tried to walk that back and say that it did get an ovation, but the booze weren't. There were just a smattering of booze, which Europeans do.
- [32:28]
A
Eber wrote about this. He wrote that, like, this is just something that happens at Cannes. It's not that big of a deal.
- [32:32]
B
Yeah. But it still. It did make headlines. And so it kind of got attached to the movie. Everyone was, like, pretty mixed to it. I think a lot of people did go to it expecting, you know, that Bill Murray zaniness. You know, Bill Murray is like the entrance ramp into Lost in Translation for a lot of people. And to Sophia World. And that's, you know, one of the. What makes it a great movie. And she obviously responds to him. He's been in two more things that she's done, including A Very Merry Christmas, which I think should have been eligible for this list. But we can only pick one Sophia movie.
- [33:07]
A
I do not.
- [33:08]
B
It's really delightful.
- [33:10]
A
Support you.
- [33:11]
B
Okay.
- [33:12]
A
And you got your Pick.
- [33:13]
B
No, I know.
- [33:14]
A
Who are you arguing with?
- [33:15]
B
But. So then I saw this movie at the Cobble Hill Cinemas with my friend Maya. I've quoted this before, but the movie ended. Maya just went. So she doesn't like a lot of words in her movies.
- [33:27]
A
This is. That was why I asked. That's why I pitched the inarticulation question. You hear this over and somewhere. Even more so. There's. Are there a hundred lines of dialogue in that movie? Probably not, but, you know, they do.
- [33:38]
B
The teacup thing underwater while the Best Strokes B side ever plays.
- [33:43]
A
She's a huge fan of Summer. It's not a judgment, but it is slow cinema for aspirant young women. That is really. This is the Bella Tar Des as well. Yeah. And I agree with that. Um, okay. Anything in conclusion, how are you feeling.
- [33:59]
B
About this over Loss in translation? You'll stand with me. I mean, you are standing with me. You encouraged me to do it.
- [34:05]
A
I think it's the exact kind of thing I want us to be doing with this list, you know, And I. I think this is the movie that. That kind of like gets to the absolute core of you.
- [34:15]
B
Yeah.
- [34:15]
A
And it matters to you.
- [34:16]
B
It does.
- [34:16]
A
And it says something about how you feel about art, where the women are represented, et cetera, et cetera. And it's made by your. Your favorite filmmaker. So I think it's great. I have no undermining interest whatsoever. I do think that she has other great films.
- [34:30]
B
Yeah.
- [34:30]
A
I think Virgin Suicides, Lost in Translation are in a very similar tier for me with Marie Antoinette.
- [34:37]
B
Totally.
- [34:37]
A
And then I think Somewhere in Priscilla are in like the next year for me.
- [34:41]
B
I would agree with that.
- [34:41]
A
As far as films, I think are really, really good. The other stuff is a little bit more of a mixed bag.
- [34:45]
B
Same.
- [34:46]
A
But yeah, I feel really good about this. Any other recommended, if you likes, for this.
- [34:52]
B
So Barry Lyndon and Clueless were the first two that jumped out, which is really two great comedies, you know, the summation of my cinematic interests.
- [35:00]
A
That's right.
- [35:01]
B
But also the favorite, as you mentioned, Portrait of a Lady on Fire and Bring it on, which is, you know, about another Kirsten Dunst stuck in another world of girls with some very strict rules and she has to learn some hard truths.
- [35:13]
A
You got two Kirsten Dunst movies on this list.
- [35:15]
B
I fucking know I did.
- [35:18]
A
And of course, Civil War will be number one. So you'll get three Kirsten Dunst movies on this list, which is exciting. What other acting credits? I don't mind saying that the Power of the Dog will Not be making it.
- [35:28]
B
Yeah.
- [35:30]
A
What else? Spider man will not be making it.
- [35:32]
B
No, sorry.
- [35:33]
A
Elizabethtown will not be making it. If Elizabethtown starred. Let me think. Who could this have been if it starred Joseph Gordon Levitt.
- [35:48]
B
Yeah.
- [35:49]
A
Instead of.
- [35:50]
B
I mean, hard. No. For me.
- [35:51]
A
Okay. You prefer what we got in that film?
- [35:54]
B
I think that it's. It's misconceived. You know, sometimes I'm a defender.
- [36:00]
A
That's fine. I'm actually a hardcore defender.
- [36:02]
B
Okay. But it's this and Garden State that together are manic. Pixie, dream girl. It's really mostly Garden State. Right?
- [36:08]
A
Yeah, I think there's definitely some, like, why are you interested in this guy? Energy from Kirsten Dunst in Elizabethtown. But I don't think it's annoying. You know what would have been a really bold choice is Bachelorette. That would have been a really. That would have been a ballsy pick.
- [36:23]
B
It's honorable mentions for sure. That movie absolutely rules.
- [36:27]
A
And then we'll be making space for a roofman shortly.
- [36:30]
B
Yeah, I gotta see that.
- [36:31]
A
Apparently she plays a woman named Lee Waynescott.
- [36:34]
B
Okay, what's wainscoting?
- [36:36]
A
What is that? Isn't that something in a home?
- [36:37]
B
Yeah, it's like. It's like indoor sighting almost for the. I think.
- [36:43]
A
Cool. A very Sofia Coppola conceit.
- [36:45]
B
Is it? I don't know whether it's that or whether it's the trim at the ceiling, you know, at the edge.
- [36:53]
A
I'll let you figure that out on your.
- [36:55]
B
I don't know. That's the best phase of my life.
- [36:58]
A
Yeah, I know, I know. I see you. I see you.
- [37:02]
B
I have so many plans. Also, like, you know the shot right before the I want Katie montage, it's when her sister in law is just had a baby. She runs in and she's like wearing one floral dress and is like back on another floral wallpaper situation. And I was like, I like this pattern mixing. Maybe this is what I'm going for. This level of textile interplay.
- [37:25]
A
I'm very happy to have allowed you to have worked these feelings out in public on a movie pod so that you can get to your home influencer pod shortly. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. We have number nine coming. Not next week, the week after. I think not even the. Yes, the week after the week after.
- [37:47]
B
You've got us on a pretty robust schedule in October.
- [37:49]
A
Four 25 for 25s coming in October. Yeah, because we really got to get to the end of this list. Okay, 98 and 7 are really good.
- [38:03]
B
Everything's really good at this point.
- [38:05]
A
Yeah, I agree with that.
- [38:07]
B
It's just, you know, do you have any.
- [38:09]
A
You feel like this is the right placement for this one?
- [38:11]
B
Well, I was thinking about it. I was feeling a little bit of anxiety, you know, like, when my heart is now on the line, you know, this is like my big movie. And I appreciate you supporting me. When I was thinking about it being at number 10, and this is like, we are doing 25 for 25, so hopefully people will share the 25 movies. But if anyone did a top 10, this is good list. Making that Marie Antoinette is number 10.
- [38:37]
A
The top 10 is good, in my.
- [38:38]
B
Opinion, but it's also.
- [38:39]
A
I was most focused on that in.
- [38:41]
B
The same way that we had Michael Clayton at 25. Because when you make a list, just some free journalism school for everyone at home, you need something to grab people at the top, something that they want to read, you know, want to hear about. And they're also going to be like, wait, why is that so low? Or, why is that there? I have some opinions about the placement, so I think this is good for us.
- [39:01]
A
We're just having fun. This is just a fun exercise for us.
- [39:04]
B
I love this movie.
- [39:05]
A
I'm very happy for you. We will be back later this week with an episode about the Smashing Machine. And we will also Best picture, Power Rank, because it's been a month since we were in Venice on Telluride, so we will see you on Friday.