The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 16 - ‘Oppenheimer’

Summary

The Big Picture: Episode Summary – The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 16 – ‘Oppenheimer’

Release Date: July 4, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode and Oppenheimer as #16

In this special edition of The Big Picture, hosted by Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins from The Ringer, the duo delves into their curated list of the "25 Best Movies of the Century." The episode spotlights Oppenheimer as the sixteenth entry, marking it as a significant contender in modern cinema.

Christopher Nolan's Significance in 21st Century Cinema

Sean Fennessey opens the discussion by lauding Christopher Nolan as arguably the most successful and influential filmmaker of the 21st century. He states, “I'm not sure if I would say, maybe I would say is the 21st century filmmaker, the most successful and significant maker of movies in this century” (01:02). Amanda Dobbins concurs, highlighting Nolan's role in revitalizing and advancing movie culture: “he’s played a big part in bringing it back, in advancing it and I guess, preserving it” (01:22).

Selection of Oppenheimer Over The Dark Knight

The conversation shifts to the challenging decision of including Nolan's The Dark Knight in the list. Initially favored by both hosts, they ultimately opted for Oppenheimer instead. Sean explains, “I think that both movies have incredibly high highs... I think Oppenheimer is the culmination of everything that he's been working towards” (02:57). Amanda adds, “I do think 2/3 of this movie are like truly sublime” (05:26), emphasizing Oppenheimer's profound impact over The Dark Knight's superhero narrative.

Discussion of Nolan's Filmography

Sean and Amanda briefly review Nolan's extensive filmography, acknowledging the strengths and occasional shortcomings of his works. Sean remarks on Memento as a "very sophisticated, mature thriller" (07:00), while critiquing Insomnia as a "fairly rote cat and mouse serial killer thriller" (07:39). They discuss other notable films like Batman Begins, The Prestige, Inception, Interstellar, Dunkirk, and Tenet, each highlighting different facets of Nolan's directorial prowess and narrative ambitions.

In-Depth Analysis of Oppenheimer

Strengths

Oppenheimer stands out for its artistic and thematic depth. Sean praises it as “a masterpiece” and “extraordinary” (03:28), while Amanda lauds its "incredible editing" and "absolutely incredible score" that won an Oscar for Ludwig Göransson (28:10). They both highlight Cillian Murphy's compelling performance, with Sean noting, “Cillian Murphy's performance with no words. But my complaints are mostly with the third hour” (28:10).

Amanda emphasizes the film's visual storytelling, describing a pivotal scene: “the shot itself is so beautiful with the mountains in the background and like, they're, you know, away it goes. It is like a painting” (26:04). Sean adds, “It's an amazing act of thematic storytelling and conveys a ton” (26:18), underscoring the film's ability to balance historical gravity with personal drama.

Weaknesses

Despite its accolades, the hosts offer constructive criticism. Sean expresses reservations about the film's conclusion and certain character developments: “once Heath Ledger is no longer at the center of the story, the air goes out of the balloon in a lot of ways” (10:25). Amanda points out issues with the film's third act and the portrayal of Robert Downey Jr.'s character, suggesting that some plotlines felt unfulfilled (28:10).

Performances and Technical Aspects

The discussion acknowledges the film's technical excellence, particularly its use of IMAX cameras and 65mm film to deliver an immersive experience. Sean mentions, “the editing in this movie is incredible” and credits Jennifer Lame for her Oscar-winning work (28:10). Amanda praises the film's score and suspense-building techniques, noting how the final explosion is handled with precision: “they just put out silence, which is also amazing” (28:41).

Awards and Legacy

Oppenheimer has made a significant mark at the awards circuit, securing seven Oscars and thirteen nominations, making it the second-most nominated film of all time. Sean highlights its historical importance and universal acclaim: “immediately enshrined in film history as a best picture winner” (34:13). The hosts debate the film's enduring legacy, comparing it to classics like Lawrence of Arabia and pondering whether Oppenheimer will achieve similar timeless status.

Comparison with Other Historical Films

Sean and Amanda draw parallels between Oppenheimer and other monumental films. Sean compares it to Lawrence of Arabia in terms of historical drama but also to Citizen Kane regarding thematic depth: “The Zone of Interest does have the... structural and just like the filmmaking innovation that Citizen Kane...” (37:36). Amanda leans towards positioning Oppenheimer alongside Citizen Kane as a film that transcends its era through its intricate narrative and emotional resonance.

Future of Nolan's Career

The hosts speculate on Christopher Nolan's future projects, questioning whether Oppenheimer represents the pinnacle of his career or a prelude to even greater achievements. Sean muses, “Is he actually going to do something even greater or even better?” (38:56), while Amanda reflects on Nolan's strategic casting and potential upcoming endeavors, indicating that Nolan continues to evolve and challenge cinematic norms.

Conclusion and Recommendations

Concluding the episode, Sean and Amanda reaffirm their admiration for Oppenheimer, despite minor reservations. Sean recommends the film with enthusiasm: “If you like any Christopher Nolan movies, then you will like the film Oppenheimer. If you haven't seen it” (43:46). Amanda echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the film's collaborative excellence and its place on their esteemed list.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sean Fennessey (01:02): “I'm not sure if I would say, maybe I would say is the 21st century filmmaker, the most successful and significant maker of movies in this century.”

• Amanda Dobbins (01:22): “He’s played a big part in bringing it back, in advancing it and I guess, preserving it.”

• Sean Fennessey (02:57): “I think Oppenheimer is the culmination of everything that he's been working towards.”

• Amanda Dobbins (05:26): “I do think 2/3 of this movie are like truly sublime.”

• Sean Fennessey (26:18): “It's an amazing act of thematic storytelling and conveys a ton.”

• Amanda Dobbins (28:10): “The shot itself is so beautiful with the mountains in the background and like, they're, you know, away it goes. It is like a painting.”

• Sean Fennessey (34:13): “Immediately enshrined in film history as a best picture winner.”

• Amanda Dobbins (37:36): “They are thematically linked in some ways.”

• Sean Fennessey (43:46): “If you like any Christopher Nolan movies, then you will like the film Oppenheimer. If you haven't seen it.”

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This summary encapsulates the in-depth discussion between Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins, highlighting their critical analysis and appreciation of Oppenheimer, while situating it within the broader context of Christopher Nolan's illustrious career.

Transcript

[Sean Fennessy]

This episode of the Big Picture is presented by Starbucks.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Sean Fennessy]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Sean Fennessy]

We are on the brink of a major heat wave here in Los Angeles, and nothing would be more refreshing and than a Starbucks Summer Berry Lemonade refresher, available for a limited time only. Your Summer Berry refresher is ready at Starbucks. I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins, and this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Oppenheimer. And now I am become death, destroyer of worlds. Okay, Amanda, here we are. Oppenheimer.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is the 12th feature film from Christopher Nolan. Now, Christopher Nolan, some would say. I'm not sure if I would say, maybe I would say is the 21st century filmmaker, the most successful and significant maker of movies in this century. Do you agree with that suggestion?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Certainly, of movie culture as we know it now and as we have been marveling that it, you know, it has died many deaths this century and then seems. Seems to be back. And he's played a big part in bringing it back, in advancing it and I guess, preserving it, if you, you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Know, defending its honor.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. At least you know, for him, for can, for canisters everywhere. So I think he's abs. He's representative if he is not like the. So maybe signature is the right word.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's interesting, you know, this show, our intention with this show, not just this series, but the show, is to kind of represent modern movies and modern movie culture. We talk about every new movie that comes out. And yet you and I over the years have had complicated relationships to various Christopher Nolan movies. I did not think we could do this list without finding a way to acknowledge Christopher Nolan.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. Well, actually, at first you did, because as listeners.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, I didn't. I didn't. So here's, here's. Well, did. Did I. Did I not put the Dark Knight on the original list?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I put it on, yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

But I. But I went with it. And then, and then when we recorded this big debate, I took it off.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You did.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I was going to replace it with a film. I won't reveal that film, but one film came off of our list that was on as recently as a month ago, and we have replaced it because I ultimately just didn't feel like we could do this activity without acknowledging Nolan. Now, I thought that Dark Knight was right, and I thought the Dark Knight won.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So did I. I suggested the Dark Knight. So why aren't we doing the Dark Knight right now?

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't think it's as good as this movie that we're talking about. That's really what it comes down to. I think that both movies have incredibly high highs. You can argue which movie has lower lows. The Dark Knight made sense to me as a representative of superhero culture.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I can say now there are no superhero movies on our list.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Don't. Once again, don't look at me. It's.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, you wanted Iron Man 2, and I said no. I said I would not. Maybe the dark one is the Mickey Rourke one. That's the Mickey Rourke one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. I've seen it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think Nolan's contributions and his individual films are incredibly meaningful, influential, powerful. Oppenheimer, to me, is the culmination of everything that he's been working towards. It feels right to me now. This movie is also, for me, your favorite, Nolan. A masterpiece. Yeah. I think it is extraordinary, like a breathtaking movie. It's maybe a little bit less fun to talk about this one because we just talked about it two years ago. It came out almost exactly two years.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Ago for, like, seven months because it was the best picture frontrunner and for.

[Sean Fennessy]

The entirety of its run and then just cleaned up. It is one of the great bulldozers in modern awards history. And it was also a massive success at the box office and that. So when I say culmination, I think. Think creatively it's fully realized, but also it did everything in a way that I'm not sure if I could think of a single comp for how big. And I guess Titanic is really the only comparison in the history of movies, really. You could say, oh, the Ten Commandments or something. There's occasional examples of these massively scaled movies, but, you know, we have, like, affection and appreciation for a lot of movies in the 2000s from Nolan. He's made 11 movies this century. Do you want to talk about those 11 movies before we dig into Oppenheimer?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Do you want to, like, go through and should we talk about why it's not these movies and why it is Oppenheimer? I think that was sort of the. I agreed with you. Ultimately, like, we closed that list. There was no Nolan on it for me. That was kind of A fun month talking to people about it and like talking to a lot of people. You were like, oh, I, you know, I wonder which Nolan you'll have. And I wonder which. Whatever. And I chuckled to myself like, haha, the answer is no, Nolan. But you're right.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like, I didn't want to troll people though. It felt like a troll.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, to me it felt fun. But I.

[Sean Fennessy]

Because you are a troll at heart.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I'm not. But I, I, you know, and I, I liked the pure. That's not fair. Because the original version of this list had the Dark Knight on it.

[Sean Fennessy]

It did.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So. And, and I, and I still am kind of like, I don't know why it's not that one, but we spent a lot of time trying to figure out which Nolan it should be and we basically like couldn't agree. And we have finally agreed on this one because I do think that 2/3 of this movie are like truly sublime. And I guess I sort of feel that way about the Dark Knight. Like the first two thirds of that movie are like the most incredible thing you've ever seen. And then the movie kind of keeps going. So if I can make space for Dark Knight, like I can agree on Oppenheimer where when it gets it right and it gets it right a lot of time it is breathtaking and exciting and even rewatching it just like the, the pace of it and the editing and, and the score, the, the actual like craft decisions, plus Clayne Murphy's performance, like, it's really, it is, it's, it's very, very good. I do think there are a few other Nolan movies on this list that I could have made a pitch for.

[Sean Fennessy]

I could have too.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know, but they aren't the same ones.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree. That's part of what makes it fun. I agree. That's part of what makes it fun. I think let's just start with 2000 memento comes out in 2000 memento. As I've said many times on the show, a great dawning moment for me. A movie I love. I don't know if I think it's a five star, flawless film, but given the expectation of not knowing anything about this filmmaker I had not seen following when it came out, and the intricacy of the design and the execution around the plotting and the way that it looks and feels, it's just a very sophisticated, mature thriller.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right?

[Sean Fennessy]

Very smart movie. Great Guy Pierce performance at the center of it. There could have been a case for this. It would have been. That would have felt a Little trolley to say like no, no, no, not Interstellar, not Inception.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But no, it's like kind of cute.

[Sean Fennessy]

A little cute? Yeah, a little cute.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which I rewatched it for because I thought it was eligible for our 2000 draft. So I rewatched it. Great movie. And that real like just what am I watching? Sort of in a way that is engrossing rather than off putting. There is like a little bit too much like Jonathan Nolan puzzle box aspect to it for my personal tastes. But it's arresting for sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, sure, that's the Star wars method.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that's true, that's true.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But you know, without the originality of building the entire world.

[Sean Fennessy]

Spider man does a similar thing in the 2000s.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Including this would have been sort of like the. We're not building a hall of fame. Right. You know. And you, Sean, always want to include like the one that starts it. But in this case we're not doing the one that starts it.

[Sean Fennessy]

No. 2006 the prestige among my favorites.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm always at home being like, what about the Prestige? Good. What about girls?

[Sean Fennessy]

What about the girls?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't mean to exclude them.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Who love the characterization of Scarlett Johansson's character in this movie. You know, is it not sophisticated? Is not a strong woman. The Prestige I think is very good. Yeah, very good. A more than above average movie. The Dark Knight.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, it's quite something. It like excellent film when it's going. It is rocking.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is I think I have a hard time not nitpicking Nolan movies from this era to death.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

And that's just a fact about me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

This movie. And then Inception.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And then the Dark Knight Rises. And then I'm not gonna go. I'm not gonna blow past it, yada yada. I won't. I promise I won't. I promise I won't. Okay. I'll just say the form from 2008 to 2014. I have a hard time not nitpicking those movies. I don't know why. Flaw of mine, fact about me, whatever you wanna say. Like, it just is something that when I watch these movies, I don't feel this way all the time. And I'm usually quite forgiving of this. But when I feel someone getting close to greatness and from my perception missing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

I can't help but claw at what's missing to me. And even though the Dark Knight had me vibrating in the theater at times, it's a few decisions I don't love. And as I thought about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Are you afraid to speak on them right now for fear that people will start yelling at you again?

[Sean Fennessy]

No, I think it just. I think this movie kind of concludes awkwardly. And I think once Heath Ledger is no longer at the center of the story, the air goes out of the balloon in a lot of ways, you know, And I think that characterization is extraordinary. I think the rendering of two face and Aaron Eckhart is at first intriguing and then kind of goofy. And I don't totally buy his transformation, you know, him being kind of like red pilled and being a chaos agent.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So there's just a couple things I don't love about it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's so funny. You could say all of those things about Oppenheimer like, like, like copy paste them, but you could. Well, one. One could, but one is not apparently being given the opportunity to do that on this podcast anyway. The Inception one.

[Sean Fennessy]

This would be your number one pick.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I think maybe. I think if we. The Dark Knight. If we're not gonna do Dark Knight, then Inception is, I think, the signature. It was like the real. He does Dark Knight and then he's like, but wait, I got Leo and a top spinning and people like shooting each other in some snow for a long period of time. And it was that first real like Nolan Reddit. Can you believe this, man? What happened in this movie? We were all in it together way and, and it really did work for me. I just, I bought into to the absurdity of it and I Don't know why Michael Caine couldn't just bring the kids to France. But, like, also, I didn't care, you know?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, just a really good example to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The US From France.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Just. But, like, a movie that just did not stand up to, like, any examination from. From me personally. And I know that giving yourself over to movies is a big part of enjoying movies for. Again, for whatever reason, I really like this movie. People think I hate it. I don't hate it. I like it. And there are moments, the hallway fight in particular, where I'm like, I've not seen anything like this before. And I think that because of the way that he was kind of narrativized as Spielberg meets Kubrick, you know, that is who this guy is. It's like, imagine if Kubrick directed an Indiana Jones movie. I just don't see it that way. And I think I've actually come to understand better, like, who he is and what he represents in movie culture, because he's not like either of those guys. And it's useful to be removed from that period in time and look back at the movies. In fairness to these movies that we're talking about right now, I have revisited all of them at least once and usually twice since kind of like, arriving at my annoying guy attitude about them. And they. I kind of still. I still feel the same way about the Dark Knight Rises, which we didn't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Watch along on The Dark Rises was not good. It was not on any of our lists.

[Sean Fennessy]

Very silly movie. A lot of fun. I think it's actually easier to enjoy that for me because I'm like, nobody is trying to tell me this is the greatest movie ever made. It's definitely like, this rocks kind of movie, but it's very silly. And it kind of reveals, I think, a lot of the silliness in a lot of Christopher Nolan's movies, like his kind of. His conception of good versus evil and what man is battling. It's certainly. They're deep themes, but they're rendered strangely at times, I would say, you know, like, his relationship to female characters is pretty complicated and maybe not the most.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Acutely understood.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. He's a. He's a man on an island who is, you know, literal or figurative, who's just trying to. He sees the way, but he can't get there. But, you know, he really is probably the only person who could get there, if anyone could. But then no one can, because life is terrible. So now we just have to use a lot of guns.

[Sean Fennessy]

The generation directly beneath us believes that Interstellar is the one. And if this were a podcast hosted by 32 year olds.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. You know, I think there are many of those out there and go check out that show and there's a Pickup podcast or 12 that you can find outside many of the Interstellar ref screenings. So listen, find your people if that is what you want. I think Timmy Chalamet is very good in this.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's your first note on Interstellar.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know what's going on in this movie. I mean, I do, but I think it might be a McConaughey thing for me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, wow. This only really falls apart for me at the end. Yeah, I think that it kind of is an indulgence of explanation. And one thing that I have appreciated about the way that his filmmaking style has changed since this movie in Dunkirk, Tenet and Oppenheimer, which is the era I have enjoyed the most.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that he has gotten less self conscious about making us feel comfortable in his heady ideas that he is comfortable letting us sort through it. Which is the thing I was always banging my gavel about with him, which is like, stop telling me how every single thing works. I find it obnoxious. And in this movie, the collision of that, the sort of like, I have read all the science plus love is actually the answer, which to me is the most saccharine, lame conclusion to an otherwise like, quite fascinating and sophisticated examination of like the distance between us, the distance across the world, the inability for people to connect, really. Like, I think that's what ultimately Interstellar is about. That what we put between us and why we can't stay together and say what we really need to say to each other. That's a great and deep idea. And the way that he concludes those things never really made sense to me. So I was never really going to seriously put Interstellar on it, even though I do think it's a great achievement. And Interstellar, Inception, being original movies at a grand scale from one of our best directors, should be applauded. Just not in this countdown. Okay, Dunkirk. Should we have more strongly considered this?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. You want to do it? You know, throw an elbow. We did. I threw the ball at you.

[Sean Fennessy]

What did I say? You said no, that was all I said. I had no other responses.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you Basically it was on text message and we were just basically like, Matt, I think that's like literally what happened.

[Sean Fennessy]

I like Dunkirk. I like Dunkirk. I think it's quite good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's really, really good.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it's quite good. And I think Maybe it doesn't get me emotionally the same way it does you or Chris or Quentin Tarantino. Clearly, it has an effect on people. The Holy Trinity. My trinity. Yeah. My team. I think Dunkirk is very, very good. I thought it was very good when it was released. I think it's very good now. It's not my favorite. I think it's clever. And I do feel like he had. Like I said, I think he unlocked something in his willingness to take chances with that triple time structure that he's doing to unfold that story that is tremendously complicated if you try to unpack it, but doesn't feel that way when you're watching it. I didn't feel confused watching that movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, not at all. And I think he also does figure something out emotionally in all three stories without having to really. Without hammering home that this is about, you know, your feelings over time and space. And like, love is the answer. They are more character based, grounded in the moments. But, you know, the Barry Keegan character, the Tom Hardy character, like, it's all really heartrending, even, like, Kenneth Branagh just, like, standing on a dock, like, using Kenneth Branagh voice, like, he hits the tonal frequency. I do also think that, you know, this is a movie about, like, a really important and serious stuff, and it is like a war movie, but it is. And. And on like a. A grand scale, or even on three grand scales because of the three timelines. But it is not saying this is about the most important thing that has ever happened in the history of the world. So the gravity of the situation and the gravity of the emotions is communicated through the film itself, as opposed to the dialogue, which I think is something that speaks in its favor.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree. I don't have very many bad things to say about the movie. It just doesn't hit me the same way that, honestly, the next two do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I made a push for Tenet, too.

[Sean Fennessy]

Tenet would have been interesting and also would have felt like a troll.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. This is what you said.

[Sean Fennessy]

We love Tenet on this show. Think 10.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't understand it. And every time we talk about it, I understand it less. But I love it.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a lot of fun.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know if it's really very thematically deep at all. Like, at all.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What is it about?

[Sean Fennessy]

The immutability of friendship buds.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Bros. Hanging. But it's not. That's not something that occurs to you until you get to the very end of the movie. You know, like, it's not clear.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is Elizabeth Debicky's son, Robert Pattinson.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, I believe that was debunked.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, that's sad. But so then why they're bros? Because John David Washington just knows that he's going to find Robert Pattinson again in some timeline.

[Sean Fennessy]

Correct.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then are they going to have to save the world again?

[Sean Fennessy]

Probably.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And, like, they're just going to do the Opera House forever?

[Sean Fennessy]

I think so.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But it's cool because, you know, you got a pal.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is like me and your husband. You know, it's like, we don't have to talk. We could go two months not talking about. And we'll just pick right up. We're good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Am I Elizabeth Debicki in that situation?

[Sean Fennessy]

Insofar as we're gonna have Kenneth Branagh murder you? Yes, sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, listen, as long as I can dive off the yacht, you know, that was very elegant.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a lot to live up to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Tenet is a ton of fun and I was so.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Freeports.

[Sean Fennessy]

Freeports. I forgot about that. I was very happy to have that movie in that time in history.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I really, really like that movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's not. To me, it's just not as good as Oppenheimer. And that brings us to this moment. Now, your notes on Oppenheimer have been acknowledged in time. There is an entire episode of this podcast in which you shared those notes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There are multiple.

[Sean Fennessy]

Let's talk about what's good about it. Yeah. And why it's here. I mean, here's. I made a couple of notes. I feel like these are important things to state around Nolan. One is, this is like an operatic humanist. This is a person who really believes in the theory of the great man. And it's a synthesis of a lot of those ideas and a little bit of a self recrimination. Like, the movie is very metatextual because it's about kind of like what happens when someone with good ideas gets to follow through on those ideas. I've always enjoyed the reading of Christopher Nolan watching the Marvel industrial complex rise in the aftermath of his Batman movies and him thinking like, oh my God, what have I done to the thing I love? That may be a little too.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's actually like a little offensive when then you if like, it's probably not fair to Christopher Nolan to be like, he looked at Marvel and then was like, well, I must tell my story with J. Robert Oppenheimer, but it's not.

[Sean Fennessy]

My responsibility to be fair to him. It's my responsibility to read movies and movie culture. And it is undeniable that obviously, this world historic, significant event that has that, like, speaks to the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives over time and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Also just to, like, a complete realignment of how we live and, like, the fear and anxiety and, like, mortal danger that the entire world is now in.

[Sean Fennessy]

But. But this is something that I think it's fair to say, like, artists do, you know, like, they take the world's events, they take our experiences, and they think about how they're filtered through themselves. Like, that is. I think that's ultimately okay. It doesn't have to be as glib as superhero movie bad. But the thing that I think makes him kind of the heir to Spielberg, the heir to James Cameron, the heir to these handful of filmmakers that get you the. No matter what they're doing, to just be like, I gotta see it. I gotta see what he's gonna do with this. A movie about J. Robert Oppenheimer could have been really boring. And, in fact, if you've ever seen. What's the Paul Newman movie?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Fat man and Little Boy.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. If you've ever seen Fat man and Little Boy, the 1989 dramatization of the creation of the atomic bomb, which starred Paul Newman as Groves, the Matt Damon character in Oppenheimer, and Dwight Schultz as J. Robert Oppenheimer. You know, like, it takes something special to make this truly exciting and to make it truly like an event film. And I think he does that. And I was trying to think of, in my head, who are the true auteurs that can do spectacle. Like, you know, it's really. It's Francis Ford Coppola, who is, like, writer first, then filmmaker. The same way that Nolan is, where Nolan writes almost everything he does, sometimes he bases it on material. Just like Coppola based the Godfather on a bestselling novel. But creating this world kind of by yourself as the author and doing it at that scale, there's not a huge tradition of it in Hollywood. Cameron writes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But he is. He writes in a different way and with different visual goals as well as thematic undertakings.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I think the level of prestige. It's only. It's only Titanic, where he has attempted something that has that kind of import. He's mostly an entertainer and he's sure about the world. He is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Cameron knows what he thinks is less random. Yeah. And he thinks. And he knows where he believes he stands in it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Our timing is really interesting because he's just lodged some complaints for sure against Oppenheimer because he is intending to make a nuclear film, you know, an atomic Movie about the power of the bomb, and he was frustrated by what was not in Oppenheimer, which is a complaint that we heard that I never understood. And I don't agree with where Cameron comes from on this either.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I think that Nolan's response was always that this was like a quote unquote, subjective movie. But I think the complaint was this is a. In many ways a movie about.

[Sean Fennessy]

This.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Per the decision that was made and how it changed our world and the people who were affected by it are not represented in any way in the movie. And, you know, like, I get it. I think it would have been disastrous if Nolan had tried to bring like that death and destruction into it. Wouldn't fit with the rest of this movie, and it would feel gratuitous. And I think it was smart for him not to do it. But I understand that, you know, this is one side of the story, very much so.

[Sean Fennessy]

And it's not attempting to be representative of anything other than the perspective specifically of Oppenheimer. But I think mostly of the people who are kind of sympathetic to his experience as the leading scientist in America at a certain time in history. But subject matter is really perfect for what he's interested in. He is interested in formulas and theories and this idea of what if. What would happen if something like this happened. But this is a real historical event that he can used to kind of analyze that context, conspiracy and paranoia and the idea of loyalty all being kind of frictive points. Like, it's a big part of Inception. It's a big part of the Dark Knight films. Like this idea that you are bound to these oaths that you've taken, but those taking those oaths then makes you every day think that, like, something is wrong and amiss. There's a great moment in this movie that is basically where the movie turns and might be where you kind of lose a little bit of your tether to it, but the moment itself is so special, which is immediately after the Trinity test. There's a moment when Oppenheimer, the following day, it seems, or after the order has been made, walks outside at Los Alamos, watches the bomb leave in trucks.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, no, that's a great. That's a great.

[Sean Fennessy]

And that moment when he realizes, like, this is essentially no longer under. Not only not under my control, but it was never under my control.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

I am just the tool toward this. And Cillian Murphy's performance with no words.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. And also, I mean, like, the shot itself is so beautiful with the mountains in the background and like, they're, you know, away it goes. It is like a painting.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's just. It's an amazing act of thematic storytelling and conveys a ton. And it is absent, I think, a lot of the political machinations that kind of dominate the final third of the movie. It is. Doesn't have anything to do with this idea that Oppenheimer was a controversial figure in any way. It's like. It's pure human drama. It's a person who thought he was one thing and then realized he was something else. And I saw that as like, a really, incredibly mature moment for Nolan, who's been kind of like, working towards something, and it really, really stuck out to me. And then there's all the other stuff too, that he likes, like conquering the metaphysical world, having an idea of what you could do, and then using science to make it real, which is like what Interstellar wants to do but can't do. Like, it can't ultimately get you to the explanation point.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The point. Yeah, you know?

[Sean Fennessy]

I know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So you don't have to understand. You just have to feel.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think love conquers all? This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. No matter where you're going this summer, odds are you'll need to pay for a few things, like a ride, share a souvenir, or dinner at that spot on your bucket list. Instead of digging for your wallet every time, just use Apple Pay. It's accepted anywhere you see the contactless symbol and all it takes is a tap with iPhone or Apple Watch. The best part is you'll still earn the card rewards points and cash back you love. Easy setup now, easier travels later with Apple Pay terms apply. And then it's also kind of a detective story, which is something I like about it. I know you're a little bit more mixed on that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, listen, so I rewatched it again and everything. The Trinity test is like one of the most extraordinary things that I've ever seen put on screen. And. And what's so amazing about it is that, well, obviously, like, they don't set off an atomic bomb, but.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sure feels like they do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It does. It feels like they do. But actually what is being filmed is just like dudes looking in wonder somewhere and dudes looking stressed out. There's very little movement in it. You know, there is. I guess there's a lot of cutting. Again, the editing in this movie is incredible. Jennifer Lame won an Oscar for it. Well deserved. But it's just like, images and suspense and an absolutely incredible score, which also won an Oscar Ludicron.

[Sean Fennessy]

Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So what he can do, it's intuitive, counterintuitive, what he does with it. Even with the final explosion, that's just cutting to silence, which is also amazing. So it looks great. I think also the Cillian Murphy performance, you just can't look away from it. But my complaints are mostly with the third hour and more generally with the Robert Downey Jr. Plotline with Strauss. Even though I don't love how all that's handled, the moment when it comes together from a pure structural perspective and you see how all of these different timelines and things that you've been working on, it clicks together and you're like, aha. And there is that moment of we have the solution and it's like this person. So I agree with you, at least formally. It's really, really impressive.

[Sean Fennessy]

Faber and Faber publishes a lot of great screenplays. They publish the Nolan screenplays, they publish the Wes Anderson screenplays. They sent me the last couple of Nolan screenplay books. And so I was going through the Oppenheimer screenplay as I was revisiting it last night, and it is all there. He has conceived of not just the dynamic kind of meeting points of the plotting, but of all of the cuts of all of the visions that Oppenheimer is having of this filmmaking style and the fact that he has aligned Jennifer Lame, Ludwig Goransson, Hoyte Van Hoytema. Like all of the craft teams in this movie, if none of them is their first time working with Nolan, they've all kind of figured out what his energies are and what he needs and what he wants. When you think about the act of making the movie with using these IMAX cameras, shooting in 65. And then that's another thing about the movie is that maybe much to your chagrin, but it did kind of kickstart in a real way. Yeah, I think a.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like the IMAX club, a mass cult.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, yeah, like canister on film. 70 millimeter eventizing of a certain kind of a movie. And this is an r rated adult 3 hour drama that made a billion dollars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, that. That part is insane. Like it. It's basic achievement just in terms of getting people to like turn out and be psyched about a three hour, like almost entirely talking, like, and. And beautifully talking. And I love it when people talk. But the set pieces in this though, they are incredibly difficult to pull off. Like they're not people punching each other. You know, they're not shooting. It's just. It's a lot of like technical orchestration of people and timelines. And you know, and trying to make something that never happened look like it happened.

[Sean Fennessy]

So as I was watching it last night and thinking about the relationships the characters have in the movie, I think that the film is very, I think especially for Nolan, very well written. I think the dialogue is like very sharp.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

And it reminded me a lot of Aaron Sorkin for sure. Maybe a little bit less saccharine than Sorkin gets at the end of his stories, but because there's a kind of like embittered quality to where we landed in Oppenheimer's arc in American History. But the character of Robbie that David Krumholtz plays and his relationship and his kind of protective quality over an Oppenheimer, the way that there is a kind of interrogative approach to many of the characters who are constantly confronting each other with their own ideas and then another person comes back with their ideas. So many great scenes where all the scientists are in Los Alamos and they're pinging back and forth about why something will work or won't work. It does have the frictive quality which we were just talking about with Sorkin where we're like, when he was good, he was so good at this stuff where you had. You could kind of support both positions as you hear people passionately go through their ideas. This doesn't happen at the movies a lot. You know, it's very rare.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And there was something rewatching it even when, you know, it takes on that quality of like, this movie has existed forever and I've seen it a thousand times and so I want to start. I'm like, oh, it's this part. I know. It's so funny that they did that. Which is a relationship you can only build with a movie when it's like it's fully like realized and designed and intentional and that you can nitpick it, that you can start or even dissect it in the way that you can, it's just because it is like it. It's so fully achieved. It is. It's like remark. It is a remarkable movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

I, you know, you must turn yourself over to it. I actually, I really loved revisiting it last night. I had a lot of fun with is a three hour movie. It was my fifth time seeing it. Yeah, I saw it on the big screen three times. I would happily watch it on a big screen again. I do think it's going to be a movie to your point about it. Like it had been around forever. It is. I think it's going to have that feeling For a long time. But one of the things I want to talk to you about is the Legacy. So those are all the reasons why this movie made the list. And they are myriad flaws be damned. There's a ton of incredible things about the movie. The Legacy is interesting. Cause this is, I can say now, the most recent movie on our list. Right? There's nothing from 2024 on our list.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I tried.

[Sean Fennessy]

You tried?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did.

[Sean Fennessy]

I said no. I said, we will not put Deadpool and Wolverine on this list.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, no, I didn't try. My pick was from 2022 that I wanted to replace this with.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes, we can reveal that at a later date. Yeah, it's not over yet. So seven Oscars, 13 nominations, second most nominations of all time. Immediately enshrined in film history as a best picture winner. Very rare. Best Actor, screenplay, supporting actor, director, film. Or did it get screenplay? Maybe it did not win screenplay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, because it would have been adapted. Right. And I think Cord Jefferson won.

[Sean Fennessy]

You're right. For American fiction. So it did not get the screenplay. So here's my question for you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I have two possible roads for this movie historically. One is, this is Lawrence of Arabia, right? This is an all time classic historical drama that should consistently be seen in the format it was intended. You can watch it on TV at home, but it's never gonna work as well as if you get a chance to see it on the big screen. And people will always say that about it. And people will always say, when I saw it, it was so majestic, it took my breath away. Because that's how people, 60 years later, they still talk about Lawrence of Arabia this way. That's one way to view it. The alternative way, and this is possible is, is this How Green Was My Valley? Which in 1941 won Best Picture, Right. And it was a master in his prime, coming off of beloved classics. So John Ford had directed many films in the 1910s and 20s and 30s. But then he goes on this run of stagecoach, young Mr. Lincoln drums along the Mohawk and Grapes of Wrath. And he's sort of getting recognized after all of those movies, which are all canonical greats for a sprawling epic in this, like, he's arrived moment. But he beat Citizen Kane. And Citizen Kane is the more aesthetically and intellectually daring movie. And Citizen Kane is the movie that is remembered. And How Green Was My Valley is not. And the comp I will make is the zone of interest, the Citizen Kane in this scenario. And Oppenheimer will be understood as a great movie that people liked, but The Zone of Interest is the movie that matters more to now and forever.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I think, you know, that I lean towards it, towards option B, but that doesn't. And another argument of being like, are we sure that Oppenheimer is what we want to pick is like, in general, are you sure the Best Picture winner is the one that you want? More often than not, the Academy gets it wrong with respect to our tastes and to history, and we don't have that many Best Picture winners on this list. So I think I'm just more historically inclined to say that it's always B.

[Sean Fennessy]

But Lawrence of Arabia was a Best Picture winner. That's my every. Like, every generation gets its. Like, Titanic did win Best Picture.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. But, like, it's not like, How Green Was My Valley is, like, looked down upon.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, that's my point. Yeah, that's my point.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I do. I mean, ultimately, that really comes that that's a conversation about Zone of Interest and not Oppenheimer.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, they are thematically linked in some ways.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They are. And I. But. And I think Zone of Interest does have the, like, you know, the structural and just like the filmmaking innovation that Citizen Kane, you know, makes sense as a comp. And it's also. I mean, they're all pretty dark looks at the world, but, you know, Zone of Interest.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, it will be harder to revisit Zone of Interest from a pure film watching enjoyment perspective. It has a little bit less of the thrill that sits right in the mid, like the end of the second act of this movie where you get to the Trinity test and all of the powers of the movie are colliding, literally and figuratively. Zone of Interest. I've seen it a couple of times now. You know, it's a challenging movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a deep movie. It's a powerful movie. It is, like, amazingly rendered and designed, and it is more relevant now than it was when it came out. But I think. I think about, like, something lasting in the culture. You know, it's all subjective, but it's an interesting thing to think about in the context of this. Then the other thing is, what about Nolan's future? Will this actually not be the culmination of his career? Is he actually going to do something even greater or even better? Or will he have a precipitous fall and will this seem like a blip?

[Amanda Dobbins]

So you're just out on the Odyssey?

[Sean Fennessy]

No, I'm merely crafting questions for you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Shakespeare and now Homer.

[Sean Fennessy]

I have never left Shakespeare and I never will. Thank you, Billy. Um, Homer, I like the Odyssey as a story. It's a good story. Yeah, you know, definitely works.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's a guy and he's just looking.

[Sean Fennessy]

For stuff that's not a journey. Yeah, let's go on a journey.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What is home and what is home?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I've asked myself that before. Is it possible that he is still going up?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure, anything's possible.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, you know, it's. He did kickstart like a pretty interesting moment both in like IMAX Mania and we knew Nolan Mania was there. But like the Odyssey is being covered regularly on Deux Moi. Like I don't know what else to say to you about that. You know, like it has this Christopher Nolan phase has gone past Reddit and movie lovers and I think he's been quite canny about that. Right. Like he is just collecting all the movie stars and putting them all in his ensemble.

[Sean Fennessy]

So.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. Maybe as many people will go see it. That is like hard for me to imagine, you know, like I just can't. But we couldn't believe that people would sign up for a three hour epic about J. Robert Oppenheimer.

[Sean Fennessy]

$975 million Oppenheimer made. I know the Odyssey has battles in it and monsters.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's true though. The Odyssey, like they did try to make people read it or at least read an abridged version of it in school once upon a time. You know. So I think people some like homework distaste.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, interesting. Yeah. As opposed to all the fun of the. The atomic bomb.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I don't really like, you know, history classes don't ever get to that point. Right. Like all history classes, they just run out of time. It's like May 31st and you've like made it to World War II.

[Sean Fennessy]

We did get to World War II in my AP American history.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But like I have to tell you, like do you yada yada did like they like they ddayed and then everything else they yada yada. They're like we don't really have time to get in the complexities of this.

[Sean Fennessy]

Sounds like your teachers didn't know how to together syllabus. They should call me. I haven't mentioned that this movie is based on a book, a very good book called American Prometheus the triumph and tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer written by Kai Bird and the late Martin Sherwin and he did have that to work from. But that's also part of why the movie is so good to me is because that's a dense 600 page book. About the man's entire life and he's had to synthesize that way down, so a huge achievement. Any final thoughts you want to share about Oppenheimer before we do recommend it? If you like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I like this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. You have some misgivings.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no, no. I don't. I don't.

[Sean Fennessy]

So this is a collaborative act.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This is a collaborative act.

[Sean Fennessy]

This list has been an interesting process.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And this is where we met and I think everything that we talked about that is amazing about this movie is amazing about this movie. The Dark Knight thing. Not having a superhero movie on this list is interesting. And like, I, I say that to you, I don't.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't think that there are any five star masterpiece superhero movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I just don't. I, I like a lot of them a lot.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I, I definitely don't. But the Dark Knight is pretty good and it's. It could serve double as the Nolan entrant and the superhero entrant. To me, what a.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, it could have if you were, you know, if I had this in my convictions. You have a weekly podcast about Batman which is one of the best shows here at the Ringer podcast network. It's called the Dark Knight Tests and it's a woman's perspective on Bruce Wayne. And I'm a huge fan of the show. I'm an executive producer on that podcast. Thanks so much and I've been happy to help you along the way. And for your 25 for 25 Batman related media list that you're doing, you could put Dark Knight at number one if you want.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. But unfortunately I have to do Ben Affleck's cameo as Batman in the Flash at number one because I really thought he brought some emotional resonance.

[Sean Fennessy]

What about George Clooney's cameo as Batman in the Flash?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Honestly, I didn't. I saw the Flash and I don't remember that. Like, was I in the bathroom?

[Sean Fennessy]

We have gone far afield here on this podcast. Recommended if you like Citizen Kane. Yeah, Seems appropriate. Great man. Maybe not everything he was cracked up to be. Some second thoughts on his life. Amadeus. Yeah, I thought Amadeus was pretty good. This was like kind of the best one I came up with where I was like. The same energy, the same sense of grand drama, scope and bigness. Warring factions. Yes. Lincoln.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, sure.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not a fan of Lincoln.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I don't know whether Lincoln is really taking like a Are we sure? Approach to Lincoln. You know what I mean? With all respect, are we sure?

[Sean Fennessy]

Interstellar. Are we sure it's Good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. If you like any Christopher Nolan movies, then you will like the film Oppenheimer. If you haven't seen it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Steve Jobs.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, this is a good one. I mean, like this.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's a real. Are we sure?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is it good?

[Sean Fennessy]

No, like a suspicious. Like, this is a great person with great ideas. But is he a great person?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, but, you know, he makes the ipod for his daughter, so he does.

[Sean Fennessy]

Thank God for that. Hopefully one day I can make an ipod for my daughter. And then I put the Brutalist on here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, of course.

[Sean Fennessy]

See the Brutalist.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Good movie. Very good movie. Very good film. Any other thoughts?

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's really fun to make a. Make a show with you and to also to learn about what your definition of compromise is.

[Sean Fennessy]

What do you. That's not fair. I've been very generous in this process.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What if I just started doing the whole kitty correcting the tense of the interrogator speech right now just to close this out.

[Sean Fennessy]

I wish you luck. But in the meantime, I would have you taken the sheets. That's what I would like you to do. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Not a coincidence. Happy fourth of July weekend.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's good. I'll tell you something. You figured out the schedule just so.

[Sean Fennessy]

Today is our Independence day.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There you go. Good job, Sean, Ben, we'll be back.

[Sean Fennessy]

Next week with part two of our 2025 movie auction. We'll see you then.