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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe Show. That's right, I'm back to have the same in depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games, the X's and O's, the drama. The playoffs are coming up and now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love. So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen. Listen to your podcast. Let's go.
- [00:38]
Sean Fennessey
This episode is brought to you by the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit Card. This is an ad for the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mom or grabbing a coffee with your dog, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply. This episode is supported by FX's the Bear. The Emmy award winning series returns following Carmi, Sydney and Richie as they push forward, determined not only to survive, but also to take the Bear to the next level. This season, the pursuit of excellence isn't just about getting better. It's about deciding what's worth holding on to. FX is the Bear. All episodes streaming June 25th on Hulu. I'm Sean Fenasey.
- [01:45]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm Amanda Davins.
- [01:46]
Sean Fennessey
And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Before Sunset. And baby, you are going to miss that plane. Today we are talking about one of the most romantic movies ever made. It is directed by Richard Linklater. It is written by Richard Linklater, Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke. And it stars Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke. Now, Amanda, I must tell you.
- [02:06]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes.
- [02:06]
Sean Fennessey
I very recently did a Rewatchables episode about this movie.
- [02:10]
Amanda Dobbins
You guys did Before Sunset?
- [02:11]
Sean Fennessey
We did. We did Before Sunrise.
- [02:13]
Amanda Dobbins
I listened to Sunrise and Before Sunset. I missed Sunset. I never. I didn't listen to it.
- [02:16]
Sean Fennessey
That's great. So, unfortunately.
- [02:18]
Amanda Dobbins
But I did listen to the first one. I'm a fan of the Rewatchables.
- [02:21]
Sean Fennessey
That's wonderful. I am as well. I have talked about this movie at great length recently. So I don't want to bore you. I want you to be in charge.
- [02:31]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay. Well, what did you Guys, learn from your rewatchables Before Sunset episode.
- [02:38]
Sean Fennessey
I kind of just poured my heart out a little bit, and I greatly identify with both of the characters in these films, and I'm a longtime disciple of the Linklater project, and this might just be my very favorite movie he's ever made.
- [02:59]
Amanda Dobbins
I think it's mine, too, and I think that it's notable that it's mine over Before Sunrise, so tell me why so. And I rewatched both Sunrise and Sunset for this project just because I hadn't seen Sunrise in a while and because it is a deep pleasure just to be in this world, at least the first two. Notably, I did not revisit Before Midnight.
- [03:24]
Sean Fennessey
And I have not revisited Before Midnight for the Rewatchables or for this.
- [03:29]
Amanda Dobbins
Maybe it's the best one and we're just too scared.
- [03:31]
Sean Fennessey
We are currently in the Before Midnight era of our lives.
- [03:34]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. But I was thinking to myself, if Before Sunrise were eligible for this project, would we pick Sunrise or Sunset? And I know that I personally would pick Sunset because I think it's both, like, just a richer text and also more of a cinematic and performance feat. Because the first one, which is, if you haven't seen Before Sunrise, I really don't know what you're doing listening to this podcast or, you know, living out in the world, but that's okay. It's about two young people, early 20s, who meet on a train on the way to Vienna. And one is an American, Jesse, played by Ethan Hawke. The other is a French woman, Celine, played by Julie Delpy. And they're thrown together on a train, or they, you know, meet each other on the train and they decide to spend the night together in Vienna, walking around Vienna before Jesse has to catch his plane back to the US And I mean, it's like a landmark film. Right. And it changes. And it is one of the key.
- [04:56]
Sean Fennessey
Independent films of the 1990s in America. Yes.
- [04:59]
Amanda Dobbins
And it really is just two young people talking in a very specific 90s way, Linklater way, and taking all of the ideas and emotions and philosophical nonsense that is in their heads. And it's certainly in your head if you are like a hyper educated 20 something in the 90s and putting it into words and putting it on screen and making it very natural and, you know, memorializing. Not just like the connection that two people can have for, like one magical moment in time, which is the setup of that movie and what's magical about it, but also kind of just like what two people talking at each other can really, really accomplish. You know, it's like, it is a.
- [05:47]
Sean Fennessey
How it can be cinematic to just watch people talk.
- [05:49]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. And also that it can be, like a real emotional connection. Like, it is an achievement. It's one for the talkers. You know, it's not a coincidence that we love these movies.
- [05:58]
Sean Fennessey
So it is professional yappers.
- [06:00]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, exactly. And people were like, more words are better. Right. So, you know, it. It invents this franchise. It invents language. There is something like. So they're so young, and it is like, you know, first love, magical moments. The way the movie ends very famously is that they don't exchange information and they agree to meet in six months on the same train platform. And, you know, if they show up, they show up, and if they don't, they don't. And you don't know. Right. So there is something, like, wonderfully romantic, dramatic, just like. Like a perfect movie, which makes the fact that the sequel is so amazing and maybe even better. Like, even better somehow, to me.
- [06:48]
Sean Fennessey
Here's the thing. The first film.
- [06:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [06:50]
Sean Fennessey
Has no conflict.
- [06:52]
Amanda Dobbins
Sure.
- [06:53]
Sean Fennessey
They. Maybe they don't always get along or see exactly eye to eye about things.
- [06:58]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [06:58]
Sean Fennessey
But it is a wander. It is a long discussion of two people who. Learning who the other person is and.
- [07:06]
Amanda Dobbins
Learning who they are as well. They're like two very unsure young people in the world.
- [07:11]
Sean Fennessey
Yes. Figuring out who they are and being guided by the laws of attraction. That's really what drives that movie. It's an amazing movie. I think it is.
- [07:19]
Amanda Dobbins
It's sublime.
- [07:20]
Sean Fennessey
It's very important to me and as I know it is to you. And, uh, I think it's critical in the Ethan Hawke story, you know, even though he had been in big movies before this as a child actor, like, it totally reshapes, I think, his kind of heartthrob Persona. Um, all men fell in love with Julie Dale. I don't know any straight men that don't want to have a family with Julie Delvey. Like, she is just such an intoxicating person. The second film, though, is simply one of the great movies ever made about relationships and love. It is astounding how deep it is.
- [07:54]
Amanda Dobbins
And it's an incredible, like, incredible setup, which is that nine years later, Jesse has written a book about this night and is giving a reading in Paris at the end of the. At the end of the book tour. And Celine shows up at Shakespeare and Company and once again, like, they wander before he has to take his plane back to. But it's two people who had one magical night. And then it didn't work out, or it didn't. And it didn't come back together. And so suddenly it's people later in life, lost love, lost connections, the road not traveled, dissatisfaction with their current life. Just, like, this, incredibly deep. So much to work with. Stuff that is, like, miraculously, like, built in because they have the first movie. Like, it's. It's. It's magical.
- [08:52]
Sean Fennessey
It's an ingenious way of telling a story. There have been other movies that have attempted to do this kind of thing. The most famous example is probably the documentary series 7 Up, which found people every seven years caught up with them and talked, like, sort of showed what their lives were. And they talked about their experiences of the world and the way that time passing can change a person and change how they see the world or how they are walking through it. But to have a narrative structure that doesn't really have to think too much about plot. And then the other thing that I think elevates this movie over the first film is even though Hawke and Delpy clearly contributed to their characters in Before Sunrise, they are credited screenwriters on this movie, and they are both putting big parts of their real lives into these characters and the words that they are saying. And I'm not saying that that necessarily makes the movie better per se, but it makes it more meaningful to me. Because a lot of times when you're watching a movie, you're like, actors. This is a construct. This came from some guy sitting alone in a room. He had an idea, he banged it out on a typewriter, they handed it to actors on the set. They learn their lines, and then they say the lines, and then they go home. This is a way more personal form of mainstream moviemaking. And that level of emotionality, you know, Hawk famously going through a divorce during the making of this movie. So many of the things that Jesse is saying about these ideas of, like, obligation and the version of myself that I think I should be versus the version of myself that I want. It's like for him to be so close to the bone on stuff like that in a movie that would open in thousands of movie theaters is such a fascinating, like, hot experience of. And the same, I think, goes for Julie Delpie and her deep feelings of, like, the inability to love and not believing in love anymore and not really finding the person that makes her feel the way that she wants to feel and she feels other people may have felt about her. And there's this kind of, like, desperation in these two people that is. Has always Been from the moment I saw it. My wife and I saw it. We were not married when it came out in 2004. I think we saw it at the Angelica.
- [11:00]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [11:01]
Sean Fennessey
We'd been living in New York at that time for a few months. And I remember vividly the trains, you know, the trains shaking at the Angelica. You can always feel the subway. And when the movie ended. This movie's 80 minutes long. I mean, more than one person screamed out like, no. Like, I don't want this to be over. Like, I can't. This can't be finished. I need to know what happens next.
- [11:24]
Amanda Dobbins
I need to follow these people.
- [11:26]
Sean Fennessey
It's such a visceral movie going memory for me because everyone who was there, and obviously it was an Angelica audience when we'd all seen Before Sunrise, but we were so invested.
- [11:36]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [11:37]
Sean Fennessey
You know, it's rare to be that invested in a movie.
- [11:40]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, I get it. You don't want it to be over. Though I do find I like, this is the greatest movie ending of our lifetimes. Maybe. I rewatched it with my husband again the other night and it was just like silent wrapped. You know, when you're watching at home with someone else, you know, someone's got to go, like, do something or checking the, you know.
- [11:57]
Sean Fennessey
You want a cocktail? Yeah. What's on my phone?
- [11:59]
Amanda Dobbins
Or whatever. And I was just like the two of us sitting in darkness, holding our breath through the entire last scene. And it's so simple and electric and the power of Julie Delpy is palpable. But it's not ambiguous to me at least. I don't know, maybe you feel differently. You don't want it to end because it's so magical. But also, unlike Before Sunrise, I don't feel like I have any questions about where things are headed.
- [12:32]
Sean Fennessey
Well, did you feel that way before. Before. Before Midnight? Because the big. The great reveal of Before Midnight. And if you haven't seen it, I'm sorry, but it's like they not only got together, but they got together and stayed together.
- [12:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:43]
Sean Fennessey
And they got married and they had a family.
- [12:45]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [12:46]
Sean Fennessey
And I guess, I mean, I. You wanted that to be true after. Before Sunset. You wanted them to consummate.
- [12:52]
Amanda Dobbins
I'll be honest. Like, I'm not really thinking about whether they have a family at the end of Before Sunset in like a happy.
- [12:58]
Sean Fennessey
Allow each other to be together. Because you think so. Okay, well, continue.
- [13:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, I mean, it's just. It's all right there. The baby. You're gonna miss that plane. And then his smile and it's like in. In that moment, it's like, you know that they're gonna, like, try to be together. And I'm. I'm from rom com training, you know, Like, I don't actually need to think about the happily ever after. You know, we're good.
- [13:25]
Sean Fennessey
Yep.
- [13:27]
Amanda Dobbins
But, you know, that. And as Before Midnight Te like, you don't really want to all of the time, but there is, like, an assurance in that ending that they're in the moment, they're together.
- [13:39]
Sean Fennessey
There is, for the most part. And I think that people scream no and in the Angelica, not because they needed to know what happened next specifically, but because they just didn't want this feeling to end.
- [13:46]
Amanda Dobbins
Right, right, right, right.
- [13:47]
Sean Fennessey
They didn't want to no longer. Certainly the final roughly eight minutes of the movie, once we get into Selene's apartment, are they just teleport you to another place. And I totally relate to the. Like, I would say roughly the minute they get into the van to head back to Celine's apartment, that stretch of the movie, the final, whatever, 20 or so minutes is just insanely brilliantly written, staged, performed. It is. I'm never more locked into a movie than those sequences. I think you can say, like, this movie is 18 on our list. Why is it not number one? Based on how rapturously we're talking about? The movie is a small film, is a modest movie. Its aims are very discreet. I would say it nails all of them, I think, just in terms of its ambition and its intimacy. It does everything that it wants to do. I weirdly, am a little lower on it now that Before Midnight has come around, because what it has made me do is see the ways in which their love was flawed in this movie, so. Because they have a tumultuous marriage.
- [14:56]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [14:56]
Sean Fennessey
And we know that. A lot of the things that I can see in revisiting the film, and this is, you know, this doesn't take away from the quality of the movie, but it's my relationship to it.
- [15:04]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, yeah, also, this is like your materialist, like, spreadsheet hat coming on a little bit. A little bit, yeah. Perhaps.
- [15:11]
Sean Fennessey
But in this movie, Jesse is desperate to sleep with Selene, and he is so horny and, like, so forward throughout the film. And he is like that in the first film too. But he is really hot for her in this movie, in part because he says he hasn't been laid in a really long time. And you can see that that's actually not ultimately a good motivator for making big changes in your Life. And she is a person who has lost the ability to feel like she can love anymore. And so this occurrence that she allows to happen by going to Shakespeare and Company is her kind of desperate attempt. It's kind of like her last ditch effort in a way to be like, can I find the sort of romantic love that I truly seek and it's ill fated in a way.
- [15:53]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, sort of. I mean, I think so. I mean, he did also like write a book about her, you know, so totally it's her. And she's like. She says she read the book twice and I was like, it really screwed me up. And also you idealized it. So I need to come like confront.
- [16:08]
Sean Fennessey
Do you believe that? See, I. Cause I feel like she's just playing a game, the first 60 minutes of this movie with him. Cause she doesn't want to reveal herself. She's embarrassed, she's annoyed by what he did.
- [16:18]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't think the game is ungenerous. I think that she is protective to your. To your point of. She has just cut herself off from the world and is like an also intensely neurotic French person. And indeed so is not letting any emotions come out. And I mean like. And also like is a character like she is just, you know. Yeah, she's kooky, batty and kooky. And in the most mesmerizing, enchanting way. But so it's not until the car ride that she really. That either of them actually let their like guard down.
- [16:54]
Sean Fennessey
What does he call her? A manic depressive communist. Yeah. Game is probably ungenerous, but particularly her for failing to remember that they had sex that night.
- [17:08]
Amanda Dobbins
Right. Well, yeah. And then revealing, purposeful.
- [17:10]
Sean Fennessey
And she was like, this is something women do.
- [17:11]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [17:13]
Sean Fennessey
She's seeking to kind of control the temperature. The engagement for sure. And she's trying to do that so that she can protect herself.
- [17:22]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [17:22]
Sean Fennessey
But deep down we know that she wants something because she says she can no longer access something. And so I think what I'm saying is this is an obvious point and I'm sorry to belabor it, but the sourness of the third film, which is a really good movie.
- [17:35]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [17:37]
Sean Fennessey
Has taken something away from my first experience of this movie. And that was the intention of Before Midnight. Sure, it worked. They did the thing that they meant to do. But I was so starry eyed at the end of this movie the first time I saw it.
- [17:49]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [17:50]
Sean Fennessey
And so swept away by that feeling. And despite whatever like spreadsheet king stuff you want to say or Whatever. Like, cynical stuff. Like, I am ultimately very romantic.
- [18:00]
Amanda Dobbins
I was also going to say, but that's your high school sweetheart, like, absolutely coming in as well. There is. There, you know, you contain multitudes.
- [18:06]
Sean Fennessey
But so I think that it, like, it has made me just a little embittered about how is the takeaway. Like, none of that is real. That, like, actually. And of course it is. Like, that's the most mature, sophisticated way of thinking about it, is there are no great, you know, subjects of sonnets and there is no true, you know, soulmate, ish experience in the universe. We're all. We're doing the best with what we have.
- [18:30]
Amanda Dobbins
A thing that really stuck out to me on this rewatch when I've seen this movie a bunch of times.
- [18:37]
Sean Fennessey
Was.
- [18:37]
Amanda Dobbins
The Julie Delphi of it all in this movie. And I mean, he is obviously great and wonderful, but this movie is centered around Selene is like the one that got away, quote, unquote, which is like a time honored, you know, film, music, literature, trope, to the point that he has literally written a book about the one that got away. And this movie, in a lot of ways, is in her character and her kookiness and her closed offness. And everything that Julie Delby is doing is like, maybe not like, undermining it, but forcing the Jesse character to enact, you know, interact with the real version of the one that got away, which is sort of, like, interesting. There's movies and then there's real life and there's like, how you imagine in your head and then, like, how it is. So for me, it's not that it turns sour or something. It's that I think that the movie and the construct has some idea of what happens in real life versus what happened in the movies. But then the neat trick of it is that it also then does give you, like, a truly romantic, like, just in the movies ending, which is like, what we all want, you know, like, that is, like, why we go to the movies. So I guess I don't feel like it's taken away from me just because things, you know, real life happens in Before Midnight because real life, like, is sort of happening in this movie too. I mean, they're both kind of losers, you know.
- [20:18]
Sean Fennessey
It's an interesting way to think about it. Like, I think that this movie does a really good job of showing that one person can be many things. In the case of Jesse, he is a successful novelist. He wrote a book, it got published. He's on a book tour in Europe.
- [20:36]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [20:36]
Sean Fennessey
That's pretty good.
- [20:37]
Amanda Dobbins
In 2004, though.
- [20:38]
Sean Fennessey
Sure.
- [20:39]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, you know, different scene, but.
- [20:41]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah. I mean, you know, no judgment on the publishing industry in 2025, but he did what he set out to do, which is to be a writer. And he published a novel.
- [20:51]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [20:52]
Sean Fennessey
He's also seemingly a bad husband.
- [20:56]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [20:57]
Sean Fennessey
And has, like, real classic, like, Texas horn dog instincts, at least around this woman.
- [21:08]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [21:09]
Sean Fennessey
He's also clearly like, a very sincere father.
- [21:13]
Amanda Dobbins
Mm.
- [21:15]
Sean Fennessey
He might be a bad writer.
- [21:17]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [21:18]
Sean Fennessey
That's in play.
- [21:19]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes.
- [21:20]
Sean Fennessey
But I think he's also a pretty sophisticated thinker about the experience of life.
- [21:24]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, yeah.
- [21:25]
Sean Fennessey
And both of those things can be true. And so he's just. He's a full person. He's not. And the exact same thing is true of Selene. Selene is incredibly nervy. She is a little bit emotionally distant at this stage of her life. She's also wildly empathetic and thinks of the world and people beyond herself.
- [21:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [21:49]
Sean Fennessey
She's artistic and creative, principled, and she's ethical.
- [21:54]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [21:56]
Sean Fennessey
And she's also, like, kind of a pain in the ass and a little bit nuts.
- [22:00]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:00]
Sean Fennessey
And he's morose and depressive, and she's batty.
- [22:04]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [22:06]
Sean Fennessey
And yet when I look at them, I'm like, these are the ideal partners. Like, these are. This is like. This is the masculine and feminine ideal. And it does. It results in, like you said. I thought you put that perfectly. It's just like, it still gives you the perfect movie magic ending.
- [22:18]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [22:18]
Sean Fennessey
Even though when you're watching the movie, I'm like, this bitch is crazy. Like, you know, and I'm like, Jesse is like. He's got to get out of his own head. This is pathetic. Yeah. And I think that that makes them relatable and also perfect and the kind of, like, pedestaling that we like to do with movie stars and with great characters like this, like, it all applies. And it's also done really, really in a really sophisticated way, filmmaking wise, where lots of long takes, long walk and talks. There are walk and talks in the first film, but there's much more cutting.
- [22:47]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [22:48]
Sean Fennessey
It doesn't feel like this. It feels much more documentary style in this movie to me. And I don't know, it feels. It honestly feels like they're having the conversation. That's the thing that I take away from this is it does not feel performed. It feels like they are just saying what's on their mind. And that idea that what's in their lives was pumped into the dialogue of the films.
- [23:07]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [23:08]
Sean Fennessey
Makes me feel like I'm watching their podcast.
- [23:11]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [23:12]
Sean Fennessey
And I love it.
- [23:12]
Amanda Dobbins
Sure, sure. But in Paris, I mean, because that's the other thing.
- [23:16]
Sean Fennessey
It is literally just, should we do that? Should we relocate the POD to the streets of Paris?
- [23:21]
Amanda Dobbins
I would love to. It would be great. But I mean, yes. It's just international landmarks pop up in the. In the background of literally, like half the scenes. It's a miracle. It's really very special.
- [23:35]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah. He's like, oh, Notre Dame. Yeah.
- [23:37]
Amanda Dobbins
They get on a bateau mouche. Yeah. And she's like, oh, I've never done this before.
- [23:41]
Sean Fennessey
It's been a long time since I've been in Paris.
- [23:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [23:43]
Sean Fennessey
You're going soon.
- [23:44]
Amanda Dobbins
I am, yeah.
- [23:45]
Sean Fennessey
When are you going?
- [23:46]
Amanda Dobbins
End of August, right before I go to the Venice Film Festival.
- [23:48]
Sean Fennessey
It's very exciting.
- [23:49]
Amanda Dobbins
I know. I'm really, really quite excited.
- [23:52]
Sean Fennessey
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Life is all about choices. For example, what happens when you show up at the movies and you're not totally sure what you want to see? Maybe Final Destination, Bloodlines, Maybe Lilo and Stitch. You've got to make a choice. At State Farm. Their goal is to help you make decisions that you feel good about. That's why with the State Farm personal price plan, you can choose the right amount of coverage to help create a competitive price. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Just like choosing a movie to stream, State Farm has options to choose from to help you find coverage that better best fits your needs. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Max. The HBO original comedy special Jerrod Carmichael, Don't Be Gay is now streaming on Max. Emmy winning comedian Jarrod Carmichael returns to the stage in his boldest special yet, bringing his sharp wit, unfiltered honesty, and the kind of vulnerability that's made his voice truly one of a kind. Fresh off his groundbreaking docu series, Carmichael dives even deeper, sharing his singular take on life, masculinity and what it Means to be himself. Don't miss Gerard Carmichael. Don't be gay now. Streaming on Max, do you have Road Not Taken thoughts?
- [25:30]
Amanda Dobbins
Do you mean romantically or. Mm, I don't think so. Not really.
- [25:37]
Sean Fennessey
It's real dotmov energy. Everything I've done is correct.
- [25:40]
Amanda Dobbins
I was just trying to think about, like, I guess there's like. Like one other person, like I could have married, but, like, then I would be like, I don't. I don't know, that would be a bad scene and I might live somewhere that I don't want to offend anyone listening. But like, I don't know, like, it's.
- [25:57]
Sean Fennessey
Wow, your ex is listening to this show. That's pretty wild.
- [26:00]
Amanda Dobbins
No, I met like the people. Wherever other people live, I think I would be living and I would be like a little more trad wife, you know?
- [26:07]
Sean Fennessey
Cobb County, Georgia.
- [26:08]
Amanda Dobbins
No, no, no, no. Absolutely never.
- [26:11]
Sean Fennessey
You know I'm going to Georgia next week.
- [26:12]
Amanda Dobbins
I know.
- [26:13]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah.
- [26:13]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. And you will be staying in Cobb county because you love it and you love the people there.
- [26:18]
Sean Fennessey
Not the case. I'll be staying near Truest park watching the New York Mets combat the Atlanta Braves.
- [26:23]
Amanda Dobbins
Do you have any road nut tickets?
- [26:25]
Sean Fennessey
No. I dated a couple people in a very short term time before my wife and I got back together. But no, I was never really invested in anything else besides that. I mean, professionally, I probably have like a thousand.
- [26:40]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, well, sure.
- [26:41]
Sean Fennessey
Like, it's really. This is a real one in a million where I landed in my life. So in that respect, with my personal life. No, I mean have kids, not have kids. That's like another example, that's an element of this movie is that Hawk having a child. His character Jesse having a child makes him feel confined to this life that he's chosen. Which is a crazy thing to say out loud because he, of course, has two children with a woman who he's no longer married to.
- [27:12]
Amanda Dobbins
Me also argue that just in the context of the character, like, don't say it out loud, even if you feel that way.
- [27:19]
Sean Fennessey
That's what it is.
- [27:19]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [27:20]
Sean Fennessey
Is that both characters keep saying things out loud you're not supposed to say.
- [27:24]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [27:24]
Sean Fennessey
Which is.
- [27:25]
Amanda Dobbins
Which is how a movie works.
- [27:27]
Sean Fennessey
It is. But somehow this is better.
- [27:29]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [27:30]
Sean Fennessey
Do you know what I mean? I don't know why it's better. Is it better writing? Is it better performance?
- [27:35]
Amanda Dobbins
I think it's both.
- [27:36]
Sean Fennessey
Is it. These movies came to us at the right time in our lives.
- [27:39]
Amanda Dobbins
I guess. So we're like 10 years behind them.
- [27:42]
Sean Fennessey
Every single time, which I think is Helpful.
- [27:43]
Amanda Dobbins
I remember that. I know. I told my dad that Before Sunset was the next one. He audibly groaned. Because it's not Barry Levinson's Ten Men. Sorry, dad. Ten Men.
- [27:54]
Sean Fennessey
We talked about this with Bill on the. On the before pods. And, you know, Bill is roughly the same age as Hawk, and I think Linklater is a little older than him, but he was watching these movies as these things were happening to him.
- [28:07]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [28:08]
Sean Fennessey
And I. I think he, like, related to Jesse.
- [28:14]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [28:15]
Sean Fennessey
But sometimes it can be, like, too close. Whereas, like, it was easier for me to be, like, idealize who that person was. You know, it's like when you meet, like, an older kid in school and you're like, how does that kid know how to do all that stuff?
- [28:25]
Amanda Dobbins
Right, right, right. And do I want to do it that way, or can this happen?
- [28:30]
Sean Fennessey
But when you get older than these people, these characters, and they stay this age forever.
- [28:33]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [28:34]
Sean Fennessey
You're like, why is this guy such a loser? I didn't think he was a loser in 2004. I don't think I. Loserish.
- [28:40]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, I don't think I really did either.
- [28:43]
Sean Fennessey
And.
- [28:44]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, I think I probably thought of him more in the. In the story, Ethan Hawke tradition of Troy and, you know, just, like, hot losers, you know, and where, like, being a loser is, like, part of the. Especially, like, in the 90s, you know, not, like, totally having your act together as part of the charm.
- [29:04]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah. I never could.
- [29:07]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. No, it's not my thing. And ultimately it's not my thing. But he worked that appeal, and so you can see it. But now he's just a loser. I saw Before Midnight right when Zach and I first got together, so that's a real, like. Well, that won't happen. You know, that's like. They made some bad choices.
- [29:28]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah.
- [29:29]
Amanda Dobbins
But I have not seen it since, so I don't know. I guess it does happen.
- [29:33]
Sean Fennessey
I gotta go back to Before Midnight.
- [29:35]
Amanda Dobbins
What if we watch it and we're like, oh, it should have been before Midnight.
- [29:39]
Sean Fennessey
Well, let's talk about the Linklater movies that we didn't pick, because it's pretty safe to say there was always going to be a Linklater movie on this list. Probably his most iconic films to this show are this trilogy and Dazing Confused. So Dazed and Confused. Obviously not eligible.
- [29:57]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [29:58]
Sean Fennessey
But then you look in the 2000s, and this is an interesting time to be talking about him because he got two movies coming out this year. Let's just go through his movies. Why not? Waking Life, Tate, School of Rock, Before Sunset, Bad News, Bears, Scanner Darkly, Fast Food Nation, Me and Orson Welles, Bernie, Before Midnight, Boyhood. Everybody wants some last flag flying. Where'd you go, Bernadette? Apollo, Ten and a Half, and Hitman. Now, he's been incredibly active in this time. He's made almost 20 movies in this century. And some of them are just clear, like, Mrs. You know, like, didn't totally turn out the way that they. Fast Food Nation, Me, Orson Welles, Those movies have things to recommend about them, but they're not in the upper echelon. School of Rock is his biggest hit.
- [30:39]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [30:40]
Sean Fennessey
And I think it's probably the movie that he is best known for in the generation below us.
- [30:46]
Amanda Dobbins
It was recently recommended to me that I show Knox School of Rock and that that movie really does hit with.
- [30:52]
Sean Fennessey
The children, which makes a ton of sense, given your son's musical gifts.
- [30:57]
Amanda Dobbins
Well. Oh, thank you. That's very kind. But just also that it is for people younger than us, small children. It matters.
- [31:05]
Sean Fennessey
It very much matters. And I like it perfectly fine. Boyhood's the most acclaimed movie that is made this century. I wasn't really going to make a bid for Boyhood, though. I know. I like it a lot more than you do.
- [31:18]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [31:20]
Sean Fennessey
I haven't revisited in a while, but I have a similar feeling when I watch that movie as what I feel when I watch Before Sunset, which is that this feels very real to me.
- [31:31]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, sure. And it's. I mean, it's a similar undertaking and that it is an experiment with how to demonstrate time and someone's life and maturing, like, over time on film. And, you know, the project with Boyhood was that they just. They filmed it every year and released it all at once, versus before the before trilogy, which they're doing it every nine years, but same idea. I just think that the before trilogy turned out better.
- [32:02]
Sean Fennessey
You know, Is there any other movie in that run?
- [32:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Everybody wants them. I think that that's the one that you like, annotated on the list because you had a phase where we had a list and then you were just playing devil's advocate.
- [32:14]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah.
- [32:14]
Amanda Dobbins
And your devil's advocate was everybody wants some.
- [32:17]
Sean Fennessey
I would never say I like everybody wants some more than Before Sunset, but it's powerful. It is very powerful.
- [32:22]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [32:24]
Sean Fennessey
To me, it is the origins of Glenn.
- [32:28]
Amanda Dobbins
That's where we met him, right?
- [32:30]
Sean Fennessey
Yes, I met him on. What was that Fox show, Scream Queens. That was the first time I ever saw him. Yeah. Which he was very funny on that show.
- [32:40]
Amanda Dobbins
Not Spy Kids 3. Jack. Use Spy Kids 3.
- [32:45]
Sean Fennessey
Not Spy Kids 3 specifically. But I am a fan of the Spy Kids franchise.
- [32:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay, good.
- [32:49]
Sean Fennessey
Good to know. This is pretty comfortably.
- [32:56]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, we didn't the right choice.
- [32:57]
Sean Fennessey
It was not a big fight.
- [32:59]
Amanda Dobbins
Not a lot of.
- [33:00]
Sean Fennessey
So what really is its legacy then? Because it's obvious why I made the list. Right. It's these, these performers at their best. It's this great screenwriting. It's this very simple but gorgeously executed direction.
- [33:13]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [33:13]
Sean Fennessey
It's a movie that speaks to a lot of people in a very deep way. But like, is it a big movie forever? I don't know.
- [33:23]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, this is the movie that turns the before trilogy from just like a romantic 90s movie to an actual like to a project, a proper trilogy. But it also brings in the larger ideas of what if you follow these people over time and what if you watch it at different phases of your life? And so. And like, he does this before Boyhood, even though I guess they'd been filming Boyhood for a while anyway, that it introduces this type of Barry Linklater style experiment of filmmaking and this interest of his, both in his filmmaking and, you know, people haven't ripped this off exactly. But there's a lot of movies where people are talking together and falling in love.
- [34:14]
Sean Fennessey
What do you mean? We're about to see Robert Downey Jr. In another Marvel film. It's been a 15 year odyssey of following Tony Stark turned Victor Von Doom.
- [34:22]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [34:23]
Sean Fennessey
But you know, same thing.
- [34:24]
Amanda Dobbins
But this, like, has become a reference for other people making movies.
- [34:29]
Sean Fennessey
Yeah, I agree. I think he kind of found the perfect vessel for his ideas of time and time's passage before midnight was 2013. So it had been nine years between sunrise and sunset, and nine years between sunset and midnight. And now it has been 12 years. And there's no sign that another movie is coming. In fact, Linklater, 1, has another movie with Hawk, his first since boyhood, Blue Moon, coming out later this year. And two, he's in the middle of another durational movie project.
- [35:00]
Amanda Dobbins
Right, right, right. Merrily We Roll along.
- [35:02]
Sean Fennessey
Yes. Which is taking place over 20 years. And I don't know what's up. What's up with Selene and Jesse? What is their relationship?
- [35:10]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm at peace not knowing. I'm opposite of the Angelica people. Yeah.
- [35:16]
Sean Fennessey
Because don't you want to know how to live in your 50s?
- [35:20]
Amanda Dobbins
No, man. I feel like. I feel like I just got to get through it and then I'm on lock, you know, if. If I make it to 55 or I don't know how old I'll be. When Cy goes to college, God bless him.
- [35:31]
Sean Fennessey
Will they not 55?
- [35:32]
Amanda Dobbins
Will they have colleges then? You don't know.
- [35:35]
Sean Fennessey
You won't be able to afford them. That's.
- [35:37]
Amanda Dobbins
Honestly. Maybe Cy will be a prodigy.
- [35:39]
Sean Fennessey
Okay, that's a good point. If he's Doogie Howser, that's a great. That's great news.
- [35:43]
Amanda Dobbins
That's great news for everyone. No, I feel like it'll be cool. And if it's like. And if it's not cool, you think.
- [35:53]
Sean Fennessey
Being in your 50s will be cool?
- [35:55]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. To your point about before sunrise having no conflict, what will the conflict be once the kids are gone and the logistics are out?
- [36:04]
Sean Fennessey
That's when it all really starts. He talks about this in the movie. I guess he says, I don't want to be one of those guys who gets divorced at 52 and spends all my time thinking about, what was it all for? What did I do with my life?
- [36:15]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, well, I mean, I agree with him. If you're gonna get divorced, get divorced earlier.
- [36:19]
Sean Fennessey
Why is that important?
- [36:20]
Amanda Dobbins
Because then you haven't wasted all the time. But, like, you know, at 50, at 58, or however I'll be, if Zach and I want to, like, be doing different things, then I think we should just, like, go do different things and have dinner at the end of the day, and that'll be nice. You know, I'm not too stressed about it.
- [36:34]
Sean Fennessey
Interesting. Okay, so you guys will not be, like, parasailing together.
- [36:38]
Amanda Dobbins
I will never learn to golf. Let me say that right now. I will literally never learn.
- [36:44]
Sean Fennessey
Let me ask you a question.
- [36:45]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [36:45]
Sean Fennessey
Why?
- [36:46]
Amanda Dobbins
It seems boring, and I don't like being bad at things.
- [36:51]
Sean Fennessey
Let's put it in the right order, please.
- [36:53]
Amanda Dobbins
Do you think that that's a revelation that we're making, That I don't like being bad at things? No.
- [36:58]
Sean Fennessey
I just like hearing you say it out loud.
- [37:00]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, I don't. So that seems. And that's the point of golf, as I understand it. It's like, be outside with your friends and then just, like, to be eternally frustrated by it. That seems like it's not the worst plan ever.
- [37:13]
Sean Fennessey
But how nice is it to be outside with your friends?
- [37:16]
Amanda Dobbins
That is nice, but I will just have a cocktail.
- [37:18]
Sean Fennessey
Would you ride along in the cart with him?
- [37:20]
Amanda Dobbins
No.
- [37:21]
Sean Fennessey
Why? What's wrong with that?
- [37:23]
Amanda Dobbins
No, listen, I wish that you would be together. No, that's what I'm saying. He can go do his thing, and then I'll go do my thing, and then we'll have a nice dinner and Talk about our day.
- [37:31]
Sean Fennessey
Okay.
- [37:32]
Amanda Dobbins
That seems good. That's.
- [37:33]
Sean Fennessey
That's great. I feel that you need before dawn, which is the final installment of this film, so you can know how to live in your 50s.
- [37:39]
Amanda Dobbins
I think I'm doing okay.
- [37:41]
Sean Fennessey
Okay. What else? Like Legacy?
- [37:44]
Amanda Dobbins
You made such a beautiful list. Oh, I thought you were doing the movies. If you like.
- [37:48]
Sean Fennessey
Oh, well, we'll get there momentarily. Any other, like, Legacy notes for this film? You know, Delpy has not really been terribly present. She's very present at the Hollywood Farmers Market, where I see her on a fair occasion. But, you know, she's made. She's directed a few films in the last 10 years.
- [38:06]
Amanda Dobbins
I like her. Two days in Paris. Is that what it's called?
- [38:10]
Sean Fennessey
She did Two Days in Paris and Two Days in New York.
- [38:11]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. Two Days in New York. In Paris was very funny.
- [38:13]
Sean Fennessey
Yes. Two Days in New York was the Chris Rock movie.
- [38:16]
Amanda Dobbins
That sounds right.
- [38:17]
Sean Fennessey
She's directed a couple films that I don't think were released in the United States, but she has not really been as much of a linchpin in Hollywood productions. Hawk's interesting. He's had quite an arc. We talked about him a little bit during our Paul Newman hall of Fame episode because he directed that six part documentary about Newman and Woodward's life still obviously a huge part of movies and television right now. He's in that very short list of greatest podcast guests in the universe.
- [38:47]
Amanda Dobbins
I was honestly about to say one of the greatest watch guests.
- [38:51]
Sean Fennessey
He's just an awesome talker.
- [38:52]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. And I mean, the documentary in a lot of ways is like video podcasts with a lot of archival and research.
- [39:01]
Sean Fennessey
Him riffing with Billy Crudup and.
- [39:02]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:03]
Sean Fennessey
And his other acting buddies. Is he underrated as an actor? Overrated. I don't even know how to think about him because he didn't do the thing where he was like, I need to be at the center of every movie. He didn't pursue that traditional mainstream stardom thing. He was always willing to take chances. He was always willing to play number two to some big stars. Training Day being the most famous example, got himself an Oscar nomination. He's gonna be this year in The Black Phone 2.
- [39:35]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [39:36]
Sean Fennessey
And he has had this tradition of making.
- [39:38]
Amanda Dobbins
What was the setup of that again?
- [39:40]
Sean Fennessey
He plays a child murderer who locks kids in his basement.
- [39:43]
Amanda Dobbins
And what is the black phone?
- [39:44]
Sean Fennessey
Where the black phone sends a call out into the.
- [39:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Into the.
- [39:49]
Sean Fennessey
Into the world. Into the. And in the second film, I think it's like, into the. The world of the undead. Oh, he Met a grizzly end in the black phone.
- [39:57]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [39:57]
Sean Fennessey
And so I think he's being connected to whatever from hell.
- [40:01]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay. So black phone calls him.
- [40:04]
Sean Fennessey
We'll see. We'll have to check out the film. But he's been using these horror movies to kind of like.
- [40:08]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [40:09]
Sean Fennessey
Fund his directorial projects or his TV stuff.
- [40:12]
Amanda Dobbins
And I mean he like Linklater came of age in the 90s, like indies scene and even, you know, in Reality Bites, which was a more mainstream. But he plays like the Houston, like angry, like deadbeat, really hot loser and has like sort of stayed. Stayed in that lane. I mean, even as. As he is in big budget movies or whatever. He's not a superhero. He's never been like a now I will like have my Cary Grant moment. He's still sort of, you know, 90s slacker, but not like slacker in. He's very ambitious and works a lot, but is staying on the edge of things.
- [40:55]
Sean Fennessey
I think you're forgetting his role in the TV series Moon Knight.
- [40:58]
Amanda Dobbins
I never saw that, so it doesn't exist to me.
- [41:00]
Sean Fennessey
Okay. He played Arthur Harrow.
- [41:03]
Amanda Dobbins
Is that the one? That's not a superhero. That's a cult, right?
- [41:07]
Sean Fennessey
No, no, no, it's Marvel. He was a cult leader and an avatar of Ammit.
- [41:12]
Amanda Dobbins
Was he a superhero though, or a villain?
- [41:15]
Sean Fennessey
He was a villain, I think. But they blurred the line in Moon Knight. Kind of an anti hero situation.
- [41:20]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, there we go. You know, only the most complex work.
- [41:23]
Sean Fennessey
You know who played Moon Knight?
- [41:24]
Amanda Dobbins
Oscar Isaac.
- [41:25]
Sean Fennessey
That's right.
- [41:25]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. No, I mean that was part of it.
- [41:27]
Sean Fennessey
You should go home today and watch every episode of Moon Knight. See how it goes. Let me know if you enjoy it. I'll meet you at the potluck afterwards.
- [41:32]
Amanda Dobbins
I think playing a villain is different than playing the superhero, you know.
- [41:36]
Sean Fennessey
Fair enough. Recommend it if you like.
- [41:39]
Amanda Dobbins
You made such a wonderful little list of all my favorite movies, so why don't you just read them?
- [41:43]
Sean Fennessey
I will do that. Brief Encounter, David Lean's masterpiece. Very important movie for my wife and I. No surprise. This is a big one for Before Sunset. Heads. Jules and Jim, of course I wrote the Notebook. If you're just a basic boy and you know about the Notebook, but you don't know about Before Sunset, Give this movie a whirl.
- [42:03]
Amanda Dobbins
You're open to your emotions. If you know about the Notebook.
- [42:06]
Sean Fennessey
If you only read People magazine and this is your first ever podcast. Welcome to podcasts. Welcome to the big picture. Congrats on having seen the Notebook. Give Before Sunset a try. Past lives. Yeah, we've just spoken about materialists on this podcast, and that's a good fit.
- [42:24]
Amanda Dobbins
Pride and Prejudice, the Joe Wright 2005.
- [42:27]
Sean Fennessey
That was the one I was thinking of.
- [42:29]
Amanda Dobbins
You saw they're remaking it as a film. I think they're doing a TV series again on Netflix after the BBC series with Colin Furst and Jennifer Ely. I know. I agree.
- [42:42]
Sean Fennessey
Sleepless in Seattle.
- [42:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Great, great.
- [42:44]
Sean Fennessey
Call Frances Ha.
- [42:47]
Amanda Dobbins
Love it.
- [42:48]
Sean Fennessey
Anything else you want to add to that? It's a pretty robust classic.
- [42:51]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, no, because I was like, well, that's every movie I love, basically.
- [42:55]
Sean Fennessey
Who are these people who are like, I'm really into Frances Ha. But I've never heard of Before Sunset that I've imagined. Do they exist?
- [43:01]
Amanda Dobbins
Maybe. And then what a wonderful day for them, you know?
- [43:05]
Sean Fennessey
So there's a scene in this movie, and I did talk about this on the Rewatchables episode, but just kills me every time, which is they're in the van, in the back of the van, and she's just had a really, like, very frustrated moment where she's mad at him and she wants to get out of the car. He convinces her to stay, and she has her moment. And then it shifts to him, and he's in a real sadness, and he starts talking about his dreams, and he has two recurring dreams with her.
- [43:29]
Amanda Dobbins
Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [43:30]
Sean Fennessey
And he's like, you're at the train station. You're on the platform, and you go by. You go by, and you go by. And he starts telling the story of the other dream, which is that she's naked in bed, pregnant.
- [43:41]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [43:41]
Sean Fennessey
And he touches her ankle.
- [43:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [43:43]
Sean Fennessey
And he turns, he looks out the window, and she reaches for the. For him. To touch him.
- [43:47]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [43:47]
Sean Fennessey
And just as she's about to make contact with him, he turns back and she pulls her arm away. And when I saw it the first time and when I saw it last night, I was like, this is the most emotionally powerful thing I've ever seen in a movie. I am devastated by this tiny little action. And to me, that is the ultimate legacy of the movie, is that in these small moments, it communicates something so strong that hits you. Like, I was crying watching the movie last night.
- [44:13]
Amanda Dobbins
I was thinking of Julie Delpo, Julie Delpy's face in that moment. And she. That also, like, tears up and looks like a little, like, shocked, but it's, like, hit by the emotional blunt force of the. It's really amazing.
- [44:26]
Sean Fennessey
This is a great film.
- [44:27]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [44:27]
Sean Fennessey
Is it too high on the list or too low? Whatever.
- [44:31]
Amanda Dobbins
What's done is done.
- [44:34]
Sean Fennessey
Very well. Thank you to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Later this week, we will watch the zombies of 28 years later. We'll see you then, Sam.