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- [00:00]
Sean Fennessy
This episode is presented by Audi. The all new fully electric Audi Q6E. Tron is a huge leap forward featuring effortless power, serious acceleration and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever experience. Technology that puts you center stage with a panoramic digital stage plus an optional screen for front seat passengers so they can kick back with a movie. Q6E. Tron is not just a new EV. It's a new way to experience driving. Learn more@audiusa.com always pay careful attention to the road and do not drive while distracted. This episode is presented by Audi, the all new fully electric Audi Q6E. Tron is a huge leap forward featuring effortless power, serious acceleration and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever experience. Technology that puts you center stage with a panoramic digital stage plus an optional screen for front seat passengers so they can kick back with a movie. The Q6E Tron is not just a new evidence, it's a new way to experience driving. Learn more@audi USA.com always pay careful attention to the road and do not drive while distracted. I'm Sean Fennesey. I'm Amanda dobbins and this is 25425, a big picture special conversation show about the Handmaiden.
- [01:25]
Amanda Dobbins
You should have let me do a little.
- [01:29]
Sean Fennessy
Is that what you want to do going forward?
- [01:30]
Amanda Dobbins
The Handmaiden? I mean, I guess it's in the title of the episode. So people already know.
- [01:33]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. They're not surprised.
- [01:34]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. How do you think everyone's feeling right.
- [01:36]
Sean Fennessy
Now about this choice? Yeah, I hope. Excited.
- [01:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Me too.
- [01:39]
Sean Fennessy
You know, I think there's been some speculation that this would be a wildly predictable list and it would be only movies that we've talked about in the past. And I don't think we've really talked about the Handmaiden very much. So I'm excited to talk with you about it today.
- [01:48]
Amanda Dobbins
It came out in like a special time just before the show.
- [01:53]
Sean Fennessy
Yes.
- [01:53]
Amanda Dobbins
And. Or maybe it was like at the earliest, like the chrysalis phases of the show, if that's the correct scientific term.
- [02:01]
Sean Fennessy
Absolutely. And now we are a full blown butterfly.
- [02:05]
Amanda Dobbins
That's so out of the chrysalis. It was a beautiful butterfly. That's the last page of the Very Hungry Caterpillar for those of you not in this phase of life. Yeah. So this is a fun one to get to talk about.
- [02:16]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. So this is a 2016 masterpiece by the South Korean filmmaker Park Chan Wook. It came out September 27, 2016. It's available to stream now on Amazon Prime Video, where It has been available to stream throughout its entirety.
- [02:29]
Amanda Dobbins
Tell you what, I did not remember that this was paid for and released by Netflix, Amazon. I mean, Amazon.
- [02:35]
Sean Fennessy
Yes, in part. In part. In part paid for by Amazon. But that is an important part of this conversation. It's also written by park and co written by Jang so Kyung was a co writer on a number of Parks films. It's based on a, I would say acclaimed and Maybe even beloved 2002 novel by the wealth by the Welsh novelist Sarah Waters.
- [02:58]
Amanda Dobbins
Shout Out. Sarah Waters.
- [02:59]
Sean Fennessy
Sarah Waters novel is set in 19th century England. This film, of course, is set in Korea under Japanese colonial control in the 30s. In the 1930s. So just pre war. And the title is Victorian slang for pickpocket.
- [03:16]
Amanda Dobbins
Fingersmith is.
- [03:17]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. Which is a punning reference to the dexterity of, quote, the lesbian hand, as the writer Laura Miller put it. And the Handmaiden is also sort of a punning reference to the lesbian hand. We'll get more into that discussion shortly. It stars essentially four actors, King Min Hee, Kim Tae Ri, Ha Jong Woo, and Cho Jin Woong. And this is a fascinating period piece. It is. Well, I'll give you the brief description of the plot for the listeners at home who are not familiar with this movie. We will be spoiling this movie throughout this conversation.
- [03:51]
Amanda Dobbins
If you haven't seen it, please, please turn this off and go watch it. Because especially if you also have not read the Sarah Waters novel, it is propulsive and there are twists and you don't want to see the twist coming.
- [04:10]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. So in this story, with the help from an orphaned pickpocket, a Korean con man devises an elaborate plot to seduce and bilk a Japanese woman out of her inheritance. That is some of the story, in a way.
- [04:24]
Amanda Dobbins
That's the first 20 minutes.
- [04:25]
Sean Fennessy
It is the first 20 minutes. Okay. So the question that we always open this conversation with is why did the Handmaiden make this list? I've accumulated a significant number of reasons for this.
- [04:38]
Amanda Dobbins
Right, because you're kind of talking yourself into it a little bit. I don't want to spoil our selection committee conversation, but we can spoil this part of it that we went back and forth between the Handmaiden and Oldboy, which is of course, Park Jin Wook's breakthrough in America, at least, revenge, you know, psychotic thriller, you know, depressive, whatever is going on there.
- [05:05]
Sean Fennessy
Existentialist action masterpiece. Yeah.
- [05:07]
Amanda Dobbins
And. And what he was first known at least in the US for, and I think what a lot of people might assume would be on this list and we went back and forth and I, I do think I said to you, if you would like to put old boy, you. You can do it. I'm. I'm open to it. I understand its historical significance. The fight in the hall. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, this is a no brainer. So I didn't have to talk myself into this. I just prefer the Handmaiden.
- [05:36]
Sean Fennessy
When I was making my list in my head, I went to the Handmaiden first. I think Oldboy is more important, whatever that means to the canon, to the introduction of, you know, the South Korean New wave cinema and all these things that happened. And we'll be talking about it as we go through this episode and frankly through this list. But this movie, I think is the culmination of a lot of what he was driving towards, but just done in a slightly different register, which is to say it is quite violent, like Oldboy, in a slightly different way. It is quite sexual, it is quite extreme, it is quite intense. It is a pure thriller. He is one of the great living thriller filmmakers. It also, I think, is elevated, I guess, by the historical setting, the milieu, the production design. It being a period piece, I think is actually a very comfortable place for Park. Even though he doesn't make a lot of period pieces, he tends to make more contemporary set thrillers. So this is a little bit outside of what he's most familiar with. But also, I think really speaks to one of his strengths, which is sort of like complicating what seem to be simple stories with this like depth of design that goes into the stories. So this movie in particular, because of Waters kind of source material, is really naughty and really kind of obsessed with class and power and gender dynamics and sexuality and the way that power is conferred, sexuality. And so this is like really rich text for him. He tends to work on original material most of the time. And this, this being an adaptation makes it a really fascinating one. So it actually was not a hard choice. Oh, good.
- [07:07]
Amanda Dobbins
I'm glad. For me, I think, when I think.
- [07:09]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, well, the thing is, like, there's the list that represents everything that matters to cinema history, or at least the 21st century. And then there's what you really like the best. Yes, I think this is probably my favorite of his movies. So that's the end.
- [07:25]
Amanda Dobbins
This movie's wild. Everything that you just said in terms of it being a marriage of even of his themes and interests and also his tremendous craft skills, production design, but also just things being very weird and funny and unexpected. And he's Adapting a novel. So there's a lot of story. Like, it moves, it is propulsive. And just when you think you know what's going on, it shifts in a way that is disorienting just on a basic story level. But it's certainly in his wheelhouse. So it is. It's a great showcase for him and as you said, kind of an elevation for him. But I just. It's. This movie is so fun to watch.
- [08:11]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, it feels like a page turner.
- [08:12]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. I mean, it is an erotic thriller. And that's another thing. Like, we don't really have another erotic thriller on the list that I can think of off the top of my head, at least not yet.
- [08:23]
Sean Fennessy
This is one of the reasons why I felt like it was an important addition to the list, which is a sort of lurid but classy drama, aka erotic thriller. It's something that in the 21st century, the United States basically punted on. It kind of went out of fashion. We no longer made them in the same way that we did in the 80s and 90s. And across Europe and Asia, they have persisted. You know, we've had Stranger by the Lake, Blue is the warmest Color. We've had Black Book, we've had the Skin. I live in the works of Luca Guadagnino.
- [08:52]
Amanda Dobbins
Like, every single one. Bless you.
- [08:54]
Sean Fennessy
There have been a lot of examples of these kinds of movies that have proliferated. I think this is probably the best of the best. And so it's also an interesting space to show us, like, really transgressive images. You know, in this movie, you see lashed asses, you see scissoring women. You know, you see the, like, tongues interconnected, interwoven in emotional and sensual poses. Like it is.
- [09:17]
Amanda Dobbins
There's real innovation in camera angles used during sex scenes. And like you, there has been, as there is with all movies featuring any type of sex, some conversation about whether this is exploitative or quote, unquote, liberating. Especially because the majority of the sex scenes, like the actual sex, as opposed to just a tremendous amount of weird porn.
- [09:46]
Sean Fennessy
Yes, well, literature, painting.
- [09:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Literature, yeah, sure.
- [09:50]
Sean Fennessy
But I mean, it is a sort of prehistoric porn.
- [09:52]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, it's old school pornography. You know, the way we did it back in the day, kids before the.
- [09:56]
Sean Fennessy
Internet draw two stick figures banging each other.
- [09:59]
Amanda Dobbins
But the actual, like, the sex acts that you see, which, by the way you do, are all between two women and they are photographed with gusto. And many people rightly feel with that, with cliche bordering on exploitation. I just think that it's Kind of exciting. And there is that inventiveness, even the camera angle, which is, you know, going in a certain way.
- [10:31]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, the headshot.
- [10:33]
Amanda Dobbins
But what you're seeing is someone's face and someone's enthusiasm at being there, as opposed to the actual, you know, canal, for lack of a better word.
- [10:42]
Sean Fennessy
So canal, eh?
- [10:45]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, you know, entry point. Like, all of the various, like, euphemisms that are read in the reading scenes are, like, floating through my head right now. This sex is the text of the movie in a lot of ways. And it is the. Their sex scenes are the only, like, pleasure, only like freedom, only like actual expression of feeling in the entire movie. So for me, it works. But, you know, if you just. If you would like to read the scissoring debate, like, that's available for you.
- [11:21]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, and I.
- [11:22]
Amanda Dobbins
And I acknowledge that.
- [11:23]
Sean Fennessy
I have respect for that criticism. But we can talk about it, I think, in the context of character and plot. Because in this story, this young woman who Kim Min Hee portrays is the niece of a very powerful man, a Korean man who has moved to Japan, who is attempting to essentially become a naturalized Japanese citizen and to adopt this sort of Japanese lifestyle. This man is a forager, and he's a collector of rare things. And in the event that he can't collect the rare thing, he makes a fake version of it. And. And he draws the nobleman from Japan into his kind of lair, his reading room, his study, where once his wife read these erotic stories, now he has enlisted his young niece to do the same thing.
- [12:06]
Amanda Dobbins
And he's building sort of the library of Alexandria, but of.
- [12:12]
Sean Fennessy
Horny octopuses. Yes. And in this movie, this character, Hideko, who Kim Min Hee portrays, effectively learns about sexuality by having this forced exposure at a very young age, I think as early as five years old, to this literature, to these paintings. And so when you fast forward further into her life, when she becomes kind of ensnared, or does the ensnaring and the con that is attempted, and she falls in love with the character who Kim Tae Ri plays, the sex that they're having is sex that she learned about in these books and in these paintings.
- [12:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [12:48]
Sean Fennessy
So when Kim Tae Ri's character is sort of like, wow, this is your first time? It's like, yes, it's her first time, but she's been studying for the test for 20 years. You know, like, she's really ready, and she's kind of overdoing it. You know, forgive this comparison, but I think this is very applicable to modern times. You know, you Sometimes hear women say when they're having, you know, relations with a man for the first time, that, like, the man is trying to act like he's in a porno.
- [13:13]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, exactly.
- [13:13]
Sean Fennessy
You know, because he's been watching porn his entire adolescence. And then he's like bringing the moves to the table that maybe are not actually what it's like, right. When you're intimate with someone. And so the movie is the same way that this movie is this kind of outsized, over the top thriller. The sex scenes are outsized and over the top for reasons that are informed by the character. So, like, I think any movie that is about two lesbians directed by a man is going to come under this criticism. And I understand that. I think in this case, it is more than earned. I think Blue is the Warmest Color is an interesting comparison point. A movie that received significant accusations of exploitation and unrealistic sexual portrayal in a movie that is otherwise more gritty and sort of more realistic. This is this Grand Guignol period piece with all this wild design and hands being cut off and, you know, bleeding from orifices and all this wild stuff. It's a. It's a part of it.
- [14:05]
Amanda Dobbins
And I do also think, and spoiler alert, like, it, the end and the sex and the whole engine of the film does move towards these two women being able to do whatever they want together outside the auspices of men, outside the auspices of all, like the weird expectations of porn. And they even kind of like use something from a prior scene and a prior reading is like repurposed to signify that they're like on their own, doing, having a great time, just themselves. Which is not often the case in like queer cinema. And you know, the women, women especially are often like punished for finding each other and having a great time.
- [14:53]
Sean Fennessy
No. Yeah, this is. This is an awakening. This is an act of rebellion and independence. Like, it is a very kind of up feeling version of the story, even though it is kind of depraved in how we eventually get to the conclusion.
- [15:05]
Amanda Dobbins
And like, they are very naked on screen.
- [15:07]
Sean Fennessy
So, you know, they are deeply deep, deeply naked. Both actresses are. They look great. Kim Tae Ri in particular. This is her feature debut as a performer. Kim Min Hee is an interesting actress. She is best known, I think, as the muse for Han Seong Soo, another Korean director who is a part of this wave of filmmakers, along with Bong Joon Ho and Kim Ki Duck and Kim Ji Woon and all of these filmmakers who kind of emerged in the late 90s, early 2000s they all aren't making the same kinds of movies. Like Martin Scorsese describes Hong Sang Soo as the Woody Allen of Korea, in part because he makes a movie every year. Those movies return to very similar themes. Kim Min Hee is in a lot of those movies. Those movies are nothing formally like the handmaiden Kim Tae Ri never acted before and is put in this incredibly vulnerable. Vulnerable, yes. Open, revealing situation. And this character is also really interesting because when we're introduced to her, we feel that she has the upper hand.
- [16:01]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [16:01]
Sean Fennessy
And by the time we get to the end of the first act and the movie is cut into three acts in a formal way, it indicates when we're moving to a new act, the tables turn on her dramatically.
- [16:09]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. It's so exhilarating.
- [16:10]
Sean Fennessy
It's an incredible moment in the movie. Yeah.
- [16:12]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [16:13]
Sean Fennessy
And it had that great feeling when you're watching a thriller, when you're watching a David Fincher movie, when you're watching a Bong Joon Ho movie where you're like, oh, oh, is this really. Oh, no. And you're confused for a second. And then you have this moment, this dawning realization of the story is not what it was presented as, which is also obviously a great literary trick. I haven't read the Sarah Waters novel. Did you look at it?
- [16:34]
Amanda Dobbins
I looked at it. I was not able to read all of it. But it is broken into three parts, and the basic plots, even down to the uncle as a collector of literary porn, are the same. But that first act reveal is, I think, pretty exact.
- [16:54]
Sean Fennessy
Okay.
- [16:55]
Amanda Dobbins
Or as close enough as an adaptation gets.
- [16:58]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, I mean, I think that in particular is really fascinating. And then I think the reading sequences where we see what this devious uncle is forcing his family to do are fascinating. The movie is like a story of shifting perspectives. The three parts have three different perspectives. We see the movie through the eyes of all of the main characters at various times. But then also during these reading sequences, we see the story that is being told through the eyes of the men who are observing the story being read and placing themselves in this kind of traditional Dom sub story of, like, being submissive to a powerful woman.
- [17:36]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [17:37]
Sean Fennessy
Who is, in fact, in the reading of the story, the opposite of powerful, but has been forced to read those stories by her domineering uncle. So, like, it's just a really layered psychological mind game of power.
- [17:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Right. And also in all of that, indicting the audience at the same time and bringing in, like, how you watch a movie, how you watch these things, how you consume porn. I guess, but really any sort of sexual content and really just how your mind processes these images and the audience's or the viewers like, relationship to them is pretty fascinating.
- [18:12]
Sean Fennessy
It's really, really smart. There are a handful of, I guess, famous works that are cited in the movie. You know, the Dream of the Fisherman's Wife. Whenever you hear someone say the word hentai in a joking fashion on this podcast or maybe elsewhere, the sort of like the octopus raping a woman. This is probably the painting that they're thinking of. Katsushika Hokusai is the artist, a Japanese artist of the Edo period. And that is. There's a direct reference to this painting in the. In the film.
- [18:40]
Amanda Dobbins
I was going to Google this and then who was the politician that was like searching hentai, but then typed it into the Twitter search bar and said, I was, like, so afraid that I didn't do it. I just kind of like, I'm going to trust Sean on this one.
- [18:54]
Sean Fennessy
I did link to it so you could take a look at it in the document. However, the site that I used to link was fine. ArtAmerica.com.
- [19:01]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay. All right.
- [19:01]
Sean Fennessy
So hopefully, in the event that someone goes browsing in my cookies, they see that this is. I'm just looking at a piece of fine art. This is actually a shower curtain from this image.
- [19:10]
Amanda Dobbins
Oh, okay. Normal.
- [19:11]
Sean Fennessy
Here you can see.
- [19:12]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay. Yeah. I mean, it is a very famous image. As soon as you see it, you would recognize it. But also imagine showing up at someone's house. And that's on the shower curtain.
- [19:19]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. The Plum and the Golden Vase, I think, is the story that Hideko's character is reading during the movie, which is a Chinese erotic classic. Not one I've previously read before, though. Maybe I'll look into it as they go forward. The other thing that I like that is sort of a reflection of that guys watching porn thing is near the end of the film, the uncle character is inquiring with someone in the story who has had sex with his niece. And he's asking very specific questions about how it was and what it was like. And it's real virgin energy. It's real. Like, never had sex before. Yeah.
- [19:51]
Amanda Dobbins
Never been outside of that basement or that reading room.
- [19:54]
Sean Fennessy
Yes. Even though this was a married person and, you know, the fate of his wife is a big part of this story. That feeling of like. Or even just the sick perversion of hearing details, especially for a person in your family. The whole movie is very, very twisted, but very entertaining in that way.
- [20:06]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, it's. I Mean, in some ways, it's just about, like, how do people get off? You know, and, like, what gets people off?
- [20:12]
Sean Fennessy
Totally.
- [20:13]
Amanda Dobbins
So. And. And. And in that context, the two women having sex together is, you know, is the purest version, right?
- [20:20]
Sean Fennessy
It is. And I think whether or not this is a love story or a sex story, I think is an interesting question.
- [20:25]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, for me, I think it's more of a sex story, but more of a sex story.
- [20:27]
Sean Fennessy
Okay.
- [20:28]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, there is again, there. And again, spoilers. There's also the end of the second act has a reveal as well, which is, like, equally exhilarating. And you know, that kind of famous slide, like, you know, my Tamako, my. My Suki. There is, like, some romance to that. The score in this movie is tremendous and, like, you know, like a bit melodramatic and sweeping in, you know, in keeping with the rest of the film. So once they, like, get over the fence together and are running through the field for the second time and the music is going, there is something, like, traditionally pretty romantic about it, I guess. But no, they were just kind of like. There's no them falling in love. There's just deep seduction. Like the scene in the bath with the tooth, which is, like, very hot, but.
- [21:23]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. Which is filing it down.
- [21:24]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, but, you know, that's. They aren't exchanging ideas, you know.
- [21:29]
Sean Fennessy
No, but they're all. All of those images, like in all of Park's movies are sometimes they're like these really leaden metaphors or they're just like, banging you over the head with things where it's just like, I can smooth down what's. Sharpen your life with, like, my gentle touch, you know, like, there's some very obvious stuff, but I think if you, like, if you looked at the poster of this film, even though it does have this kind of gesturing, physical touch where she's holding one character's hand and there's a hand on her shoulder, you would still think, oh, this is like a pre war stately, you know, Korean period piece.
- [21:56]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [21:56]
Sean Fennessy
You know, this is a piece about the occupation of a country. This is a piece about class. And it is those things, but it's also just this, like, horn dog extravaganza.
- [22:05]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [22:06]
Sean Fennessy
And the thing that I.
- [22:07]
Amanda Dobbins
It's about sex as power and sex and the way that. It's. The way that sex is floating under everything from a class structure to the way lives are organized. The thing is, the secret of, like, most costume dramas and period pieces is that, like, there's no sex and everyone is like, terrified. So terrified of sex that. But it is all essentially still about sex because it's about, like, who is allowed to have sex, who's not allowed to have sex, who is having sex. It is. It's like how all the worlds are organized and have been forever. So this is just kind of making it extremely literal.
- [22:41]
C
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- [23:07]
Sean Fennessy
By a special co anchor.
- [23:09]
Amanda Dobbins
What up, everybody? It's your boy, Big Snoop. Do Double G. Snoop.
- [23:12]
Sean Fennessy
Where can people go to find great deals?
- [23:14]
Amanda Dobbins
Head to T mobile.com and get four iPhone 16s with Apple Intelligence on us plus four lines for 25 bucks.
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Sean Fennessy
That's quite a deal, Snoop. And when you switch to T Mobile, you can save versus the other big guys. Comparable plans plus streaming.
- [23:27]
Amanda Dobbins
Respect. When we up out of here, see.
- [23:30]
Sean Fennessy
How you can save on wireless and streaming versus the other big guys. @t mobile.com/apple intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later.
- [23:36]
D
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- [24:06]
Sean Fennessy
Sometimes when you read about the evolution of movie history, you hear that some filmmakers are stymied by censorship laws and what they could or could not show. And if you look at someone like Park, I think one of the great things about looking at movies through the arc of 100 years is if you like a certain kind of movie, in this case a thriller, you can say, okay, they really start, let's just say for the sake of conversation, with, like, Fritz Lang's M. And then Alfred Hitchcock kind of takes the ball and runs with it and makes a very specific kind of movie that is very much in the lineage of this movie. A movie about sex and power, about wealth, class, and the exertion of those things onto from men to women. Sometimes Hitchcock's movies can be really cruel. There's very cruel elements in this movie too. But because of the times in which he was making them, they didn't really feature any sex. They hardly featured any nudity at all. Even leading all the way up to the 1970s, it feels like park is basically just continuing the mission with a movie like this, which is like, how can you be both a pervert and kind of like ethical in the storytelling, for lack of a better word.
- [25:12]
Amanda Dobbins
And also kind of interrogating, what does it mean to actually want to see that? You know, and as a. As a viewer, as a consumer, as a filmmaker, I guess it's like, okay, we can do it now, but what does that mean? And are you just one of those guys sitting on the benches imagining yourself in the story?
- [25:33]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. There's an interesting contrast too, though, because, you know, sex is a very messy endeavor. You know, it's not. But this movie, like Hitchcock movies, is very symmetrical. It's very designed. You know, there's sort of like the parting doors are a metaphor.
- [25:48]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [25:48]
Sean Fennessy
Like the gowns, you know, the way that everything is. The twinning quality of the characters. The two men, two women, a woman dressed as a man. At a certain point, this idea of like, deception and delusion matched with like, the logic of life and the logic of power and money. So this is like really, really heavy stuff for Park. It's kind of interesting in the arc of his career too, because I think up until this point, even though Oldboy is this kind of legendary movie, the Vengeance trilogy is beloved by fans of Asian cinema, I still think of him as basically like pre Last of the Mohicans, Michael Mann, until this moment, where Michael Mann, like in the 80s, made a very specific kind of like grimy grounded, with the exception of the keep like hard bitten crime story, you know, like, he was really great at that. If you look at Thief, if you look at Manhunter, he was amazing at Miami Vice. He's a master of that thing. But it's kind of one thing. It feels like one thing. And this movie, I think, kind of bumps him up into a new tier. There's a lot of interesting factoids around the release of this movie that I'd like to share with you.
- [26:54]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, great.
- [26:54]
Sean Fennessy
I feel like it's a big part of its legacy, so we can talk about what the legacy of this movie is specifically. So, as I said, It's 2016. It's basically like a conclusive it's not quite the conclusive moment of the Korean new wave, I think that comes with parasites. A few years later, we can talk about whether or not the Handmaiden was a necessary step in getting Parasyte into the American consciousness and Best Picture race in the way that it did. Not quite, but close. I think if you were a movie fan, this was probably because of its Amazon provenance. The most widely distributed Korean film, Snowpiercer, was a Weinstein production, but was primarily an American and English cast. So if you look at the history of movies like Oldboy wasn't like a box office hit. Became kind of a cult movie. In 2016, though it was not submitted as South Korea's entry in the Academy Awards, the Age of Shadows was submitted. And I think the speculation is because this movie is so sexually provocative and explicit. Explicit, yes. And historically, Korea doesn't really lean in that direction when they're submitting movies. The Age of Shadows was not nominated for best International Feature that year. But this movie is like all of those filmmakers that I mentioned, all of these fascinating upendings of expectation that all those filmmakers brought to the table. The fact that it is like such a classy affair, even though it's full of all of this. I mean, I guess devilish energy.
- [28:26]
Amanda Dobbins
Sure. Some of it is just like. It uses the trappings of what we understand as, you know, classy. Very. Like, it just has incredible costumes. The house is one of the great movie houses in terms of like making, you know, I guess form as function or of just using the house to represent visually what's going on in the movies. You know, it's like half English manner, half Japanese.
- [28:53]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, it feels like a completely new kind of design.
- [28:56]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, all the doors are as you said, like, there's one scene where the two women go through like three sets of sliding doors and then the camera like swoops over. You know, they're like. They're using the architecture to tell you something about what's going on in the story. But again, that involves just a lot of old fashioned paying attention to how things look. The colors are, you know, very like rich and beautiful. The has a traditional. I do feel like it's using all of the materials of our very classic costume drama y Oscar bait and then just completely messing with them, which is exhilarating to me.
- [29:37]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, it's the finery of Pride and Prejudice and Wuthering Heights and all of those stories, but with something much more illicit underneath. The movie is in this interesting tradition. In the 60s there was a brief period in Korea and South Korea where censorship bans were lifted. And so the movies that came out in the 60s are very different from the ones you would find in the 70s or 80s. So there's a movie that Scorsese, again, has talked about a lot, that Bong has talked about a lot that is clearly a huge inspiration on this movie. It's called the Housemaid. Not so far afield from the American title of this movie. It's a Kim Ki Young movie that's about a young woman who goes to work for a wealthy family and then kind of blows things up from the inside out. And it's interesting to think of this as like, almost like a capstone on that kind of a story. Especially because most of the Korean New Wave films are. Almost all of them are made by men, right? And most of them feature male leads, you know, Song Kang Ho and Lee Byung Hun. And a lot of actors being stymied is a theme you see pretty frequently. So to your point about the female women pursuing and achieving independence, not really at the heart of a lot of these stories too.
- [30:51]
Amanda Dobbins
No, not really at the heart of any cinema anywhere.
- [30:54]
Sean Fennessy
Very, very good story. Very, very good point. The Amazon thing's really interesting to me. Before we were doing the show together, I was writing about movies on a regular basis. And I've cited this story a couple times now because it feels really relevant the last 12 months. But Amazon and Netflix sort of invaded Sundance in 15, 16 and 17, and they kind of picked up the ball where a lot of movie studios were starting to drop it in terms of distributing independent movies and trying to make them into big hits and Oscar fodder and so forth. We understand this now, like having charted the progress of Cannes, for example, as like the breeding ground now for Best Picture, potential Best Picture winners. But Amazon, which was operating under Ted Hope's guidance, longtime independent film executive, this is what they did in 2016. They picked up Manchester by the Sea, Jim Jarmusch's Patterson, Todd Solonz's Wiener Dog, Whit Stillman's Love and Friendship. I know a favorite of yours, Nicholas Winning Refn's the Neon Demon and Woody Allen's Cafe Society, in addition to the Handmaiden, which was co financed by CJ Entertainment, which is this big Korean company that funds Bongs Movies and others. But at the time, I think I was very skeptical of this because of what ultimately happened, which was like, what happens when they lose interest in these kinds of movies? What happens to these kinds of movies? And we're finding out what happens. Nobody buys them, and then they don't get made anymore. But at the time, kind of amazing. I mean, you can find all of these movies on Amazon right now. And Ted Hope and his team, like, supported longtime filmmakers and got a bunch of movies made that never would have gotten made, which is so fascinating.
- [32:27]
Amanda Dobbins
You can find them. I mean, you have to really, really go searching, which is the other thing.
- [32:31]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. I mean, you have to tape.
- [32:33]
Amanda Dobbins
Type out every letter before you get past the Handmaid's Tale.
- [32:36]
Sean Fennessy
I would. Oh, yeah. Which is just. There's a lot of movies on Amazon now.
- [32:41]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [32:41]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. How are you feeling about Amazon Prime Video?
- [32:44]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, Michael Clayton was also available on Amazon Prime Video Streaming. Yeah.
- [32:49]
Sean Fennessy
I'd like to. Please remind me to make a note of where you can find the movie on every one of these episodes. This one won't expire, though, I don't think, because Amazon retains the rights.
- [32:56]
Amanda Dobbins
I appreciate that.
- [32:59]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah. This movie also played Cannes. Interesting Cannes lineup. Your girl Kiki Dunst was on the jury this year. She is my Girl, with George Miller, a number of other venerated filmmakers and actors. I. Daniel Blake won that year, which is relevant to me because this is the second time that a Ken Loach movie won the Palme d'or. And Asghar Farhadi's the Salesman won Best International Feature that year, which is the second time that he won after a separation in 2011. Both times, park blanked.
- [33:31]
Amanda Dobbins
That's on them.
- [33:31]
Sean Fennessy
You know, it is on them. Other movies at Cannes that year, the Salesman, as I mentioned, quite a lineup. American Honey, Elle, a movie that would be a perfect double feature with the Handmaiden, the Neon Demon, Personal Shopper, Tony Aerdman Patterson, I mentioned. And loving the Jeff Nichols movie. So good lineup.
- [33:51]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, they do well.
- [33:52]
Sean Fennessy
Cannes, the Cannes Film Festival.
- [33:53]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, I'd like to go someday.
- [33:55]
Sean Fennessy
I've decided to add a final section. This was fine.
- [33:59]
Amanda Dobbins
This was really good.
- [34:01]
Sean Fennessy
So this is a. Recommended, if you like.
- [34:02]
Amanda Dobbins
Yes.
- [34:03]
Sean Fennessy
So the Handmaiden may be a little bit more unknown to some listeners of the show. As you said, we highly encourage people to check this movie out immediately. I just came up with these off the top of my head.
- [34:12]
Amanda Dobbins
It's really good.
- [34:14]
Sean Fennessy
You can start with Gaslight, which is the origin of the phrase gaslighting. There's some gaslighting in this movie, the Charles Boyer classic about a woman being tricked into believing that something was happening in her marriage that isn't actually happening. And then I think the Hitchcock duo of Vertigo and Rebecca is probably the Closest to.
- [34:35]
Amanda Dobbins
There's an absolute Mrs. Danvers just floating around in this one. And a lot of illusions.
- [34:39]
Sean Fennessy
Very much so. And I think Vertigo was the number one influence, according to park, on this movie for him. And I think a movie that kind of changed his life. I mentioned the Housemaid, the South Korean film Clouseau's Diabolique, which was remade in the 90s when we were kids. And a very bad adaptation of that movie Bound. The Wachowskis lesbian crime drama. You can see the connections there. Wild Things.
- [35:04]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, this is good. This is a really, really good pull.
- [35:07]
Sean Fennessy
Kind of a. Kind of a perfect match.
- [35:09]
Amanda Dobbins
Right? Because if you're gonna pull from an erotic thriller of our youth, it's not. It's, like, too classy for any of the Adrian Lyon domestic dramas. Like, we're not dealing with the suburbs. But then it is also, you know, it goes there in the way that Wild Things goes.
- [35:29]
Sean Fennessy
Exactly. It's very exclusive.
- [35:30]
Amanda Dobbins
It's not afraid of what's happening in its movie.
- [35:31]
Sean Fennessy
It's not. Eyes Wide Shut. Of course.
- [35:33]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [35:35]
Sean Fennessy
Gone Girl.
- [35:36]
Amanda Dobbins
Love it.
- [35:37]
Sean Fennessy
There's not a third gal in the Gone Girl delineation. I guess Carrie Coon's sister character is the closest that we get.
- [35:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Right.
- [35:43]
Sean Fennessy
But not quite the same formulation. And then the favorite, which I feel like fits pretty neatly into this. And I think Yorgos Lanthimos, also another European figure who's still making movies like this at a time when America has sort of ceased to do so. You have a great note here.
- [35:58]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay. Yeah. Just as I was rewatching last night, I just noted that. So we've had two movies on the list, two movies in a row that hinge pretty significantly on involuntary commitment. So what does that say about us?
- [36:11]
Sean Fennessy
What do you think it says?
- [36:13]
Amanda Dobbins
Just living in fear that someone's going to turn. Or are we living in fear of each other?
- [36:19]
Sean Fennessy
That's true.
- [36:20]
Amanda Dobbins
What are the laws in California? We should probably educate.
- [36:22]
Sean Fennessy
I honestly don't know. Do you think I could get you committed if I wanted to? After seven years of podcast hosting?
- [36:28]
Amanda Dobbins
I don't think so. I mean, I'm just going to go with what Arthur teaches us. I have to assume that California is. Is operating on the level with New York.
- [36:37]
Sean Fennessy
What if I could convince your spouse that you needed to be committed? You know, he and I are close.
- [36:42]
Amanda Dobbins
That is true. This is just another reason to never get married.
- [36:45]
D
Don't.
- [36:45]
Amanda Dobbins
Don't give anyone that kind of legal power over you, you know?
- [36:49]
Sean Fennessy
Any closing thoughts on the Handmaiden?
- [36:51]
Amanda Dobbins
It's just. It in addition to everything we said about how cinematically important and enrich and interesting it is just really, really fun.
- [36:59]
Sean Fennessy
It is very fun. Really.
- [37:00]
Amanda Dobbins
It is. It is quite a ride.
- [37:02]
Sean Fennessy
Do you think this is the sexiest movie that will be on the list?
- [37:06]
Amanda Dobbins
It might be, because that is one thing that we negotiated was.
- [37:13]
Sean Fennessy
There's another. There's another tough pick on at number 23 that I can tease. It could be sexy, but could be not sexy.
- [37:19]
Amanda Dobbins
Oh, no. I thought 23 was something different.
- [37:22]
Sean Fennessy
Well, we. We made some choices. Well, I like. I like, hope maybe the audience can guess where we're going with this. But, you know, it was a sort of a this or that circumstance.
- [37:31]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay. Because then I think maybe we rearranged the order. I thought. I thought 23 was like, Amanda's. Amanda's pick coming through. It's not. Okay. That's later on, though. That, in its way, also does have sex. So, you know, the kind of sex you don't normally see on screen. Not to. Not to spoil it.
- [37:48]
Sean Fennessy
They're all Amanda's pick.
- [37:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, they are, sort of. Thank you so much. Are you trying to shift, you know, responsibility on me because you're feeling anxious? You were. You were shaking a little bit last week. You know, I don't know. I could just feel your anxiety. And I have to say.
- [38:03]
Sean Fennessy
Oh. About the revealing of the list.
- [38:04]
Amanda Dobbins
I feel great. Yeah.
- [38:06]
Sean Fennessy
I feel good now. I feel fine.
- [38:08]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay, good. I'm glad.
- [38:08]
Sean Fennessy
I feel like now that it's out. Yeah.
- [38:09]
Amanda Dobbins
We're on the journey together.
- [38:11]
Sean Fennessy
I think I just needed to get my head around the fact that just, like, everybody's gonna hate it no matter what. And that's just what it is.
- [38:15]
Amanda Dobbins
I have heard from people in my life that I care about who really like it.
- [38:18]
Sean Fennessy
You know, what's been interesting is I got feedback from a lot of people who are like, I've never seen Michael Clayton. So I'm like, okay, if that's the case, then this will do some good.
- [38:26]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah. I also just have been straw polling people in our lives who know us and listeners of the show, and I'm like, what do you think number one will be? And it's not totally. I don't think the list is as obvious as you and I felt that it was.
- [38:40]
Sean Fennessy
The psycho fans of the show will be able to predict it very closely. Anybody else will have no idea.
- [38:45]
Amanda Dobbins
Okay.
- [38:45]
Sean Fennessy
Which is fun.
- [38:46]
Amanda Dobbins
And the list in general, I feel will be interesting. It's great. I love it. I'm having a great time.
- [38:52]
Sean Fennessy
I am, too. What an interesting time. This is. I'm about to take a bit of leave from the show.
- [38:58]
Amanda Dobbins
Oh, yeah.
- [38:59]
Sean Fennessy
So congratulations to you. Thank you. So. Well, I'll still be working. Unfortunately, I'll be traveling. But thanks to Bobby Wagner and Jack Sanders for their work on today's show. Amanda will be hosting the next couple of episodes.
- [39:10]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [39:10]
Sean Fennessy
Do you want to tease? Do you want to wait?
- [39:13]
Amanda Dobbins
I mean, I think Friday might be my masterpiece, you know, and then Monday, Bobby, Jack and I were cooking up something very special. You know, I don't want to spoil out there, but I just want to say it's going to be a big look for both my guys. You know, some. Some people. I see you, Jack, through the little screen. Someone's gonna be on camera. There we go.
- [39:37]
Sean Fennessy
I look forward to. I'm going to Boston.
- [39:39]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah.
- [39:39]
Sean Fennessy
For you. Gonna go to the Rewatchables tour. Am I gonna go to the town?
- [39:43]
Amanda Dobbins
Well, yeah. Cause you're screening a bunch of.
- [39:45]
Sean Fennessy
The town of Boston.
- [39:47]
Amanda Dobbins
The screening of the film.
- [39:49]
Sean Fennessy
Oh, I go to the screening.
- [39:50]
Amanda Dobbins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:50]
Sean Fennessy
You know, I don't actually know which screenings we're going to yet, because at some of them, we're gonna talk either before or after. Like, not mini pods, but just, like, little me. Chris and Bill are going to do some chats. Maybe Rosillo as well. Okay. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I haven't been to Boston 15 years.
- [40:06]
Amanda Dobbins
The town is the one that I would buy tickets for, obviously.
- [40:10]
Sean Fennessy
What about the friends of Eddie Coyle?
- [40:13]
Amanda Dobbins
I hope you guys have a great time.
- [40:14]
Sean Fennessy
Yeah, I'll be on a plane for that one, unfortunately, so I'm going to have to miss that, too. But, yeah, it should be fun. And, you know, good luck. Have a great show.
- [40:20]
Amanda Dobbins
Thanks.
- [40:20]
Sean Fennessy
Okay. See you guys.