The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 6 - 'Mulholland Drive’

Summary

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The Big Picture — "The 25 Best Movies of the Century: No. 6 – Mulholland Drive"

Podcast Host: The Ringer
Episode Date: November 5, 2025
Hosts: Sean Fennessey (A), Amanda Dobbins (B)

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Episode Overview

Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins dive deep into David Lynch’s "Mulholland Drive," analyzing why the film is not only a career pinnacle for Lynch but also one of the definitive movies of the 21st century. Their conversation traverses Lynch’s legacy, the film’s surrealist storytelling, Naomi Watts's breakout performance, and Mulholland Drive's place in both Hollywood and cinematic history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. David Lynch’s Place in Cinema

• Only two Lynch films in the 21st century: Mulholland Drive and Inland Empire ([01:08]).
• Lynch’s unique blending of “Americana surrealism,” classic Hollywood, and outsider art ([03:32]).
• Mulholland Drive as a culmination of Lynchian motifs: “There’s something very unseemly under the surface of everything in human life and daily life in American life. And this movie’s really good at capturing all of those things.” — Sean ([03:41]).

2. Accessibility and Genre Anchors

• Amanda describes the film as Lynch’s “most accessible project” due to its grounding in Hollywood archetypes and noir ([02:11]).
• The familiarity of the Hollywood setting ensures the audience has a thread to follow even as the film becomes surreal.

3. Personal Reflections on the Hollywood Dream

• Discussion of how LA’s mythology permeates the film, particularly the trials and delusions of aspiring artists ([05:34], [06:19]).
• Sean: “This is one of the best movies ever made about the difficulties of trying to achieve those dreams…” ([05:34]).

4. Plot Breakdown & Narrative Structure

• Clear summary of the film’s uneasy, dreamlike narrative and its split identities for the two female leads ([07:19]–[08:26]).
• Amanda: “Pretty much everyone is thwarted... There’s not a single happy moment in the final 45 minutes of this film.” ([07:00], [07:19]).

5. Initial Reactions and Lynch’s Stylistic Evolution

• Both hosts recall their first experiences seeing the film — confusion, awe, and eventual appreciation ([08:44]–[10:42]).
• Amanda: “I was just kind of like, wow, serious people say that this is important.” ([10:34]).

6. Lynch’s Recurrent Motifs & Ambiguity

• Exploration of Lynch’s focus on women’s pain in a male-dominated world, sexual identity, and multiple interpretations of his films ([12:45]–[13:27]).
• Lynch seen as a conundrum: “One of the greatest movie makers of all time and he’s probably best known for making TV.” — Sean ([13:15]).

7. Why Mulholland Drive is a Consensus Classic

• The film sits atop critics and reader polls, seen as the apex of Lynch’s cinematic language ([14:05]–[15:40]).
• Amanda: “Maybe it's the most bizarre, but it is also the most recognizable...” ([15:40]).

8. Resisting Explanation: The Puzzle-Box Narrative

• Both hosts agree that excessive theorizing misses the point — Lynch’s work is meant to be felt, not solved ([17:20]–[18:44]).
• Amanda: “It does not add up to any logical puzzle-box conclusion… it’s about feelings and images.” ([17:43]).

9. Dreams & Emotional Resonance

• The film is discussed as an exploration of dreams, desires, and disappointments — both personal and artistic ([19:12]–[20:34]).
• Sean: “Maybe this is the film that best slots into that idea of dreams for him. Because it’s a movie about, ostensibly, a person who is dreaming.” ([19:12]).
• Both hosts share how the film’s mood even invaded their own dreams ([19:49]–[20:34]).

10. The Audition Scene & Naomi Watts’ Performance

• “Let’s talk about Naomi Watts in general…” ([25:15]).
• Sean and Amanda extol Watts’s dual role, with Amanda noting: “She’s playing literally two characters… probably just one person, but also, like, eight different people…” ([26:24]).
• The audition scene is praised as a “moment of hypnosis” — one of Lynch’s trademarks ([27:58]).
• Sean: “She has to be that good because everybody in the room is like, whoa, holy shit... And it rarely is and you never land it.” ([28:32], [28:37]).

11. The Legendary Diner Scene

• Sean: “This is the most scared I’ve ever been in a movie.” ([33:33]).
• The use of silence and sudden terror is analyzed for effectiveness beyond standard horror tropes.
• “I don't know why, but I was, like, disemboweled by this. I was like, near tears.” — Sean ([35:14]).

12. Club Silencio & Emotional Catharsis

• The motif of red-curtained musical performances in Lynch’s work is highlighted ([37:20]).
• Analysis of the club’s role as a liminal, almost cursed space: “It seems like bad juju in there… Whatever energy people are trying to correct has found its way there.” — Amanda ([38:25]).

13. Legacy, Critic Reception & Canonization

• The film's immediate critical embrace despite its origins as a failed TV pilot ([39:10]).
• Roger Ebert’s journey from Lynch skeptic to advocate: “This is a movie to surrender yourself to. If you require logic, see something else.” ([40:01]).
• Mulholland Drive’s rise in critical polls is documented, and its role as a gateway drug to surrealist cinema discussed ([42:09]–[43:25]).

14. Influence on Other Films and Genres

• Mulholland Drive seen as a touchstone for both Hollywood-as-subject films and anti-logic psychological nightmares ([44:46]–[46:03]).
• Amanda lists films like Adaptation, Babylon, La La Land, A Star Is Born, Donnie Darko, Synecdoche, New York, Beau is Afraid, Black Swan, and older works like Don’t Look Now as cousins.
• “If you dig these movies, you might dig this. The first one that came to mind was Showgirls.” — Sean ([46:26]), noting their shared themes of female ambition and soul-crushing desire.

15. Reflections on LA & Final Thoughts

• Los Angeles as both a symbol of promise and profound loneliness ([23:46]–[24:25]).
• Discussion on whether Betty’s optimism is even real or just a fantasy ([25:11]).
• The unique, unsolvable quality of Mulholland Drive remains its greatest strength: “It’s a movie that’s ultimately about a feeling or a series of feelings, at least, which is part of… in the Mood for Love in that way. In the Mood for Love is not a movie to be solved. It’s a movie to be felt.” — Sean ([41:15]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There’s not a single happy moment in the final 45 minutes of this film.” — Sean ([07:19])
• “What I like about this movie in particular is that even though you could spend all day being like… No, that’s not the point. It does not add up to any logical puzzle-box conclusion… it’s about feelings and images.” — Amanda ([17:43])
• “She has to be that good because everybody in the room is like, whoa, holy shit, that was so good.” — Sean on Naomi Watts ([28:32])
• “This is the most scared I’ve ever been in a movie.” — Sean about the Diner scene ([33:33])
• “If you require logic, see something else.” — Roger Ebert, quoted by Sean ([40:01])
• “This is like another series of recurring motifs where you’re seeing a lot of things that are very interesting and familiar to him.” — Sean on Lynch’s thematic returns ([12:45])
• “This movie is about what if I failed and what if I didn’t and what if I could have not failed?” — Sean ([36:28])
• “We love Betty. We love Betty’s spirit, but she’s a fantasy. You know, that’s not real. Very few people are like that here. Everybody here is like, I’m doing my best.” — Sean ([25:11])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lynch’s Career Context & Film Introduction: [01:02]–[05:34]
• What Mulholland Drive is About (Plot&Themes): [07:19]–[08:26]
• Early Reactions & Lynch’s Style: [08:44]–[11:10]
• Motifs, Ambiguity, Critique: [12:45]–[15:40]
• "Puzzle-Box" Nature & Theories: [17:20]–[18:44]
• Dreams & Psychological Core: [19:12]–[20:34]
• Naomi Watts’s Performance & Audition Scene: [25:15]–[29:30]
• The Diner Scene (Fear & Memory): [33:33]–[36:05]
• Club Silencio Scene: [37:20]–[38:25]
• The Film’s Legacy & Critical Reception: [39:10]–[43:25]
• Mulholland Drive's Influence & Recommended Films: [44:44]–[48:09]

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Summary Table: Contextual Reference Points

| Topic | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------|-------------| | Lynch’s Filmography Overview | 01:02–03:41 | | Hollywood & LA Mythology | 05:34–06:59 | | Plot Structure & Duality | 07:19–08:26 | | Audition Scene & Watts’s Breakout | 25:15–29:30 | | The Diner Scene (First Jump Scare) | 33:33–36:05 | | Club Silencio Breakdown | 37:20–38:25 | | Canonization, Polls, Legacy | 39:10–43:25 | | Related Films & Influence | 44:44–48:09 |

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Tone & Language

Conversational, playful, and thoughtful, both hosts move between humor and genuine awe for Lynch’s work. They bring personal anecdotes and critical acumen, maintaining a tone that is simultaneously accessible to newcomers and insightful for cinephiles.

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Conclusion

The episode establishes Mulholland Drive as an artistic landmark—challenging, mesmerizing, and enigmatic. The hosts’ deep analysis, memorable anecdotes, and discussion of Lynch’s impact make this a standout episode for anyone looking to understand why this film endures in the modern canon.

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Transcript

[A]

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is 25 for 25. A big picture special conversation show about Mulholland Drive. No Ibanda. And yet we hear a band. We are talking today.

[B]

It's completely normal cadence about that David Lynch. That's exactly how they say it in the film.

[A]

Well, there is a kind of weirdness, sure. You know, a kind of sense of une.

[B]

Do you identify as a David lynch character? Do you feel like you present that?

[A]

I think the viewers at home might think that my very particular cocktail of intensity and laconicness and remove and, you know. Yeah. You have like the stiff acting style, impenetrability and this vague sense of doom surrounding this show at all times. Right? Yeah.

[B]

That everything is normal, but also weird shit's happening right in front of us. Like you're wearing a crew neck, but you know, just that you're a dad in a crew neck. But also.

[A]

But what's underneath, you know, is it Ray Wise and Twin Peaks? Hopefully not. Hopefully I'm just a normal dad. I'm very excited to talk with you today. This is unfortunately the second time that we're talking about David lynch this year because we lost him. And he is of course, one of the great filmmakers. We were never going to do this project without doing a David lynch film. There are only two David lynch films made in the 21st century. This one and of course, Inland Empire. He wrote and directed this one. It stars Naomi Watts, Laura Haring, Justin Theroux, Ann Miller, Robert Forster, along with a handful of well known Hollywood figures from over the years. A kind of homage. It's shot as many of his films are, by Peter Deming, music by Angela Badalamente, who also makes a appearance in the film as one of the gangsters. Production design by Jack Fisk. And this movie premiered at the 2001 International. Excuse me, the 2001 Cannes Film Festival. Mulholland Drive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know. A film that is invoked, often explored at length in dark corners of the Internet. There's incredible amount of scholarship and investigation into this movie. Let's set that aside for one minute. What do you like about Mulholland Drive?

[B]

I find this the most accessible to me of the lynch projects because it combines a lot of my interests and kind of like not guardrails, but it gives me a way into the David lynch world so that I can then. I don't know whether understand is the right word, but like I'm along on the ride with him and I'm. And I am of Course wondering, like, what the hell is going on. But I'm not, because he's using enough references in architecture of, like, old Hollywood movies and noirs and things that I know and recognize that when things get, you know, loosey goosey, I have the intended feeling like I'm with him.

[A]

That makes complete sense. I think this is not my favorite David lynch movie, but it is. It's near the top.

[B]

Eraserhead.

[A]

No. Well, as I get older, I think Twin Peaks Fire Walk With Me is the most upsetting and powerful and a movie that, like, I didn't get at all when I first saw it as a kid. I think this stretch of, you know, Blue Velvet and Twin Peaks together is kind of hard to argue. You know, that's like. That's the most iconic thing that he ever did. But the Elephant man is beautiful. I think that's a movie that I like quite a bit. I like Lost highway quite a bit. I like all of his movies. I think they're all interesting in different ways. This one, though, is. It's probably considered the culmination of all the things that he is best known for. Right. He has this very unique combination of, I don't know, I guess you'd say, like Americana surrealism, really out of like a European tradition. The classic Hollywood styling that you're talking about bound in genre and then this really sinister outside art. You know, this idea that there's something like very unseemly under the surface of everything in human life and daily life in American life. And this movie's really good at capturing all of those things. It really is this incredible suffusing of all of those feelings. But like a lot of lynch things, its birth is quite strange. This is one of the. I wonder if this is the only film that is at least partially shot in the 20th century. It started out as a TV pilot series that was supposed to be sort of like. It wasn't quite a follow up to Twin Peaks. But Mark Frost, the co. Creator of Twin Peaks and Lynch had talked for years after Twin Peaks about doing a show called Mulholland Drive. They never talked about what it was gonna be about. They just liked the idea of Mulholland Drive. David lynch lived on Mulholland Drive. You have driven on Mulholland Drive. I have any reflections on those experiences.

[B]

I mean, it's well captured in this movie. You can't also. You can't drive Mulholland Drive without thinking of the opening of the film Mulholland Drive.

[A]

But a very gnarly car crash.

[B]

Yes, but Also, and the moments before where you're just kind of winding and the camera's following the limo, and it just seems like there is a very bad thing around every single corner. And there are many twists and turns on Mulholland Drive, but also a little bit of, like, Hollywood, you know, like, I'm here, jazz hands. And there is all of Los Angeles spread out beneath you. And that's still true.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I always think of the. The idea of someone like Jack Nicholson living right at the very top of Mulholland Drive and having a home there for decades and lording over the city in some ways, it being like, if you want to see Jack, you have to come up to his place, all the way at the top of the hill. But there is something. There is an underbelly, obviously, to this city. And this is a place where millions of people have come hoping to achieve their dreams. This is one of the best movies ever made about the difficulties of trying to achieve those dreams and the kind of fugue state that your mind can go into when you're banging your head against those dreams. You and I didn't really have that experience as Angelenos. Like, we came for jobs, like, very specific jobs, and we moved here, we took those jobs and we did them, and they're still going. Those jobs are still happening.

[B]

For now.

[A]

For now, as of this regard, everything is okay. And so I don't quite have the same personal, emotional connection that I think so many filmmakers, actors, aspiring artisans have. When they come here, where they're going to make it, they're going to put their, you know, I didn't work in a coffee shop while writing my screenplay. You know what I mean? Like, but that is just. Just the other day, a wonderful woman who cut my hair was telling me all about how she's a sound designer and also cuts hair. That's just a very common, you know, navigation of this experience. And this movie attempts to kind of collate that right into one maybe, maybe one, maybe two women's minds.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And we can talk about what. What we think is really happening and.

[B]

Brings in some other smaller experiences as well. Like all of the side characters or people who show up are trying in one way or another to get what they want out of this industry and also life. And pretty much everyone is thwarted.

[A]

Yeah. There's not a single happy moment in the final 45 minutes of this film. The story, if you haven't seen it, I guess the best way to explain it is the film opens with this woman in the back of A limousine. There is a car crash. She is injured in the car crash and is left with amnesia. And she wanders down the hill in Mulholland Drive and she stumbles into an apartment. And she's discovered by a young woman who has just moved to Los Angeles and is staying in an apartment that was arranged for her by her aunt. And she is an aspiring actress. And they build a curious friendship and then something more. And in the process, Betty, the blonde haired woman, attempts to become an actress in Hollywood. The dark haired woman works with Betty to try to solve the mystery of who she is and what's happened to her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And she can't figure out her identity. And then at a certain point after this Nancy Drew style mystery with these two young women kind of turns on its head, has a kind of psychological flip and we feel different identities in different bodies.

[B]

Yes. With different names.

[A]

Yes. So I saw this movie when I was in college and I was a Lynch fan, but not a completist at that time. I had not seen everything I didn't know everything about. I hadn't read books about him. And I like a lot of people.

[B]

Unlike now, I've read many books about him. I was pure anchorman, you know, sorry.

[A]

They'Re not leather bound, you know. But like he has a memoir, he has an interview book. Like once you've kind of gone through all those things. Documented for sure, very documented. There's a documentary about him. There's a wonderful Q and A about this movie in the Criterion edition of this movie. That's just him talking about the experience of making the film, but with no text and no context and being 18, this just cooked my noodle. I was like, what the fuck is going. I think that's a feeling that a lot of people were left with now. Some people immediately thought, masterpiece. This is a film. Roger Eber, for example, thought you must kind of like stand in awe of this film's surreal greatness. And that's a critic who for years was very skeptical of David lynch, very critical of him.

[B]

And even his Mulholland Drive review is like, I don't care about Lost Highway. I haven't gotten any of this. But finally he pulls it all together in Mulholland Drive.

[A]

Yeah, I was wondering if that echoes, you know, some of your, like, do you have like a negative feeling towards the other movies? Do they just not connect for you?

[B]

No, I think that. So we were in a Twin Peaks household or if my parents were, they weren't telling me about it, but they definitely told me about Law and Order. So I think that there is a.

[A]

Dark core to that series as well.

[B]

But I, I think this was probably my first Lynch, I would guess just because of how old I was. I was in high school and he was nominated for Best Director. It was a bit in the Oscar conversation. So if you were digging deeper, which I probably was at that point. And again, it was like, you know, glitzy and glamorous. I think LA Confidential was an Oscar nominee like five years before and that was, you know, like a noir best picture, whatever. So I think I walked in expecting LA Confidential.

[A]

Yes. And that was a good table setter for us at that stage of our life for those kinds of films. It being a throwback to a very traditional style for sure.

[B]

So, you know, I was also, what, 17? So I think I was just kind of like, wow, serious people say that this is important.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I don't totally know what I'm watching and. But you know, there are transcendent moments within it. And so I think I probably just did like my best, like stroking my chin like, you know, teenager face and then. And then sought out other lynch later in life. But it's really subject matter is the only reason. I mean, Blue Velvet is a classic. I still haven't seen all of Twin Pink's Peaks, just because that's a lot.

[A]

It's a lot of work on tv.

[B]

Yeah. And it's worth it.

[A]

It's one of the few things that I get. It's.

[B]

But it is hard. You know, we talk about this. I can't keep up with all the TV shows that currently exist.

[A]

It's so funny though, because that show, and I'm talking about this for a reason in this discussion, is an interesting example of a thing that happens to a lot of modern television, which is that the first season, especially the first six episodes, are so beguiling and so involving and feel so different from anything that had come before it. Now they feel ultimately like a link in a chain of all the lynch works. But it was a phenomenon for a reason. Right. The idea of this mystery, this being kind of like the origin point of the Dead Girl phenomenon which still courses through our culture today. And the show really loses steam in the second season. And a lot of the second season is not very strong at all. And I do think it has a wonderful conclusion and kind of a fascinating conclusion. But lynch puts that aside for a long period of time. And then the other thing that he makes in the 21st century is the Return, which is kind of the third season of the show, which is not eligible for our project, but is easily one of my favorite things that's come out. And parts of the Return, I think are among the best things he's ever done. Especially episode eight, which I've talked about before. That, to me is legitimately better than 80% of the things on this list. I just think it's such an amazing piece of work. And you can see that he just like kind of can't let go of certain images and ideas. And some people are accused of repeating themselves. And some people, they become recurring motifs in their work. This is like another series of recurring motifs where you're seeing a lot of things that are very interesting and familiar to him. You know, a woman who's been degraded and desecrated by like a powerful male world and discarded like, that is something that you see over and over in his work. Some people read that as misogynistic at times. Some people read that as empathetic and open minded. You know, this is a film about queer romance. Some people read that as exploitative. Other people said, this is one of the most sensitive portrayals of this kind of love that we've seen in a movie. Fix your hearts or die thing. He famously said in Twin Peaks and was quoted often after he passed away earlier this year. What I'm saying is he's kind of a conundrum, you know what I mean? He's like one of the greatest movie makers of all time and he's probably best known for making tv.

[B]

I was going to say. How does that make you feel?

[A]

Well, I think it's.

[B]

Is the TV here in the room with us?

[A]

I mean, love tv, but I love Twin Peaks and I think it shows that it's obviously like a medium that can support great art. It's just unusual for someone like that to be given the chance to do it at such scope.

[B]

Yeah. What do you make of Mulholland Drive as his most consensus of, like, work of art? We'll talk about the legacy, but this has been near the top of every single critics poll and like, reader poll of films of the 21st century. It's like pretty much unanimous.

[A]

Yeah. So I have a lot of thoughts about it, but I'm glad you asked because the thing that I always wonder with this is, does this movie make sense if you haven't seen Blue Velvet or Twin Peaks or, like, just tonally, if you show it to a young person and you're like, let's start with Mulholland Drive. To me, when I saw this I was like, okay, I've seen Twin Peaks, I've seen Blue Velvet. Like, I at least know what we're working towards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, the tone of Lynch's movies. Let me see if I can figure out what I wrote down. I wrote, it's this wonderful combination of what the fuck is happening? And I don't like how this is making me feel. This incredible sense of dread and unease and confusion around the plotting and the incidents in the movie. Like when Dennis Hopper shows up in Blue Velvet, it's just like, what the hell just happened to this movie? And that's obviously thrilling. And it comes completely out of Lynch's style of writing, which is all from the subconscious. You just kind of lets the ideas come and writes them through. Doesn't worry about logic, thinks of things through the dreamscape. Right. But Mulholland Drive is so celebrated in the way that you're describing, I think, because everyone was like, this is it. This is what he's been working towards. This is the culmination. He's one of our great film artists. It's time now. He has reached the point in his life where we can all feel comfortable celebrating him, you know, very randomly getting the Best director nomination, but no other nominations for this film. It's one of those things where everyone just felt comfortable declaring his greatness. Even though, you know, Lost highway was. Got mixed reviews. Fire Walk With Me was loathed. Like, it's not as though he had been on a hot streak as a filmmaker. He'd been kind of in a down period. This was a failed TV pilot.

[B]

That's true. I do also think it's just. Maybe it's the most bizarre, but it is also the most recognizable of. Of so many of them. Like, you can. I don't know what the blue box is. Like, I don't. I, like. I haven't read a good explanation.

[A]

I don't either.

[B]

But, like. But otherwise, you know, it's not Sunset Boulevard. But it is like, we. You can. You can see the spine and you can see there is a familiar, like, tradition and feeling that he is, like, playing with that people accept from movies. That I think grounds everyone a little bit more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you know, and also, like, Hollywood likes movies about Hollywood, especially movies that castigate Hollywood and the industry and the commercialization of art. I suppose.

[A]

No. And I think Women in Peril and Detective Stories are two of the most reliable frameworks for a movie. So you've got that. So when you already have that, you're able to kind of Rope audiences in and get them compelled by the story. You can have the man behind the dumpster in the alley. You can have the blue box. You can have the shrunk down older couple in the final stages of the film. You can have Silencio. You can have these flights of subconscious fancy that are very metaphorical to him and just open ended enough that we can fill that box with all of our ideas. Now I gotta say, I don't, I don't love his movies because they're so, you know, they fit so many kind of conspiracy theories and multiple readings. Like that actually isn't my relationship to his work.

[B]

Like, me either. And what I like about this movie in particular is that even though you could spend all day being like, no, no, no, no. So the blue boxes XYZ and the jitterbug couple, like were like the old couple were the judges of the jitterbug context.

[A]

Or it's like that's Betty's ancient souls and what she, the happy life she could have had if she didn't come to Hollywood. Like you could read a million things into it.

[B]

These are all things that are kind of floating around the Internet. Like none of them really make sense. Like this movie resists that like Reddit puzzle box urge to put everything in its particular place. Like, and it was funny rewatching it. I rewatched this movie a couple times just because it is so dense, but I felt some of those muscles kicking in on the second watch of like, okay, so now that I've refreshed it, it's time for me to put my like tinfoil hat on because we have been trained to do that. So, you know, in the last 25 years of movie and TV watching and it's like, no, that's like, that's not the point. It does not add up to any sort of logical like puzzle box conclusion. It is just, it's about feelings and images that are in his head. And I think it's awesome that it completely, completely frustrates any attempts to, to explain it. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's nothing better than having friends who support you and your passions.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

I totally agree with you. One thing I like about it is maybe this is the film that best slots into that idea of dreams for him. Because it's a movie about ostensibly a person who is dreaming.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, if you want to read the movie that way, that Diane imagines Betty as a better version of her life, a happier, more innocent version of her life. I'm not saying that that's definitively the reading, but if you read it that way, then it's this kind of like double stacked thing. Yeah. And then when you're having a dream like that, invariably I'm famously not much of a dreamer. I don't have. I don't really remember my dreams. I don't dream often, or if I do, I don't have like access to them.

[B]

I had some truly fucked up dreams last night, I think, after watching and they weren't like.

[A]

Well, tell us about.

[B]

No. So my dreams are never. The ones I remember aren't usually, you know, surrealist majesty. You know, it's just kind of like very little interpretations of my emotional fears, like laid out. Right.

[A]

Put it on the table. It's just me and you in here.

[B]

I definitely had one of those last night and I woke up early and was just like, now, now I feel bad.

[A]

Do you think that happened because you just have dreams like that frequently or because you watched Mulholland Drive twice?

[B]

Probably a little bit of both. I don't always have dreams like that, but they do come out kind of in moments of emotional agitation. And I think I was probably like a bit scared by being in the Mulholland drive headspace for 48 hours straight.

[A]

Yeah, the movie is. It's kind of floating for a while. It's a little bit hard to hold onto. And there are moments, of course, the legendary diner scene, that disrupt and upset you. But it does have this kind of gentle cadence, I would say, for the first hour before things really start to turn. And you can be kind of like subdued into curiosity about the movie before it starts to really kind of annihilate your feelings. And that's a very powerful trick he's pulled here. One thing that is a little unclear to me is sort of the timeline of when he is reshooting versus when he is just shooting the pilot stuff like, Robert Forster, who's in this film as a police detective, famously did not know he was in this movie. He was a part of the pilot. He's playing one of the cops in the pilot. And then two years later, a movie premiered at Cannes that he was in, and a friend told him he was in it, and he was like, I had no fucking idea. I thought that that show just didn't go. And that's fascinating, you know, that's fascinating that he kind of had to Frankenstein this movie into shape. And yet somehow it sort of hangs together, even though it is a series of vignettes and there are all of these side doors that your mind would go down while you're having a dream where it's like, all right, let's spend five minutes with a hitman. All right, let's spend five minutes talking to this guy in this diner. All right, let's go over here and go to this audition and meet all these new characters, and then they're going to introduce you to another character. And then let's watch this film being made, because there's a mob intrusion into this Hollywood production, and it's just like these very soft focus, brief interludes in the life of sad Los Angeles.

[B]

Yeah, sad and, like, messed up Los Angeles.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I guess I do respond to the sadness in it, and I did. I rewatched it again last night. Then I went back and watched Noy Banda, the Silencio scene, which is, like, incredibly sad. And then I had sad dreams. But I did notice, like, your contribution to the outline. You're like, this is one of, like, the most, like, despairing portraits of la, which. Which I think is true. I do instinct when I think about this movie. I think that this is one of the, like, portraits of just LA is evil and cracked and bad, as opposed to sad, and that it just kind of sucks the life out of everyone, which is sad in its own way. But I think I respond to just the malevolence more than the sadness.

[A]

It's interesting. I mean, I think you can look at this, especially the final 30 minutes or so with Diane, through both of those lenses, because Diane, it's revealed, is just a destroyed person, a person for whom things have not worked out at all. And she's in love with a woman who doesn't love her anymore. She has not been successful in her career in the way that she had hoped. You know, she is a person who. I mean, she's played by Naomi Watts, she's stunningly beautiful, and yet she feels she has nothing. And so you can feel her anguish. And then it leads to her doing truly evil things. I mean, she hires someone to kill this person that she's in love with, she really goes to these awful lengths. It's interesting. Like, I'm very happy in Los Angeles, and I've been here for a long time, and I'm very fond of saying, I'm not leaving.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. But I must confess, for both myself and for most people I know who moved here, it's tremendously lonely here.

[B]

It's.

[A]

And you have to make it really hard. It's unbelievable to be not lonely.

[B]

And they don't tell you, even though they did in all of these films.

[A]

But, yes, some of that is informed by maybe where you lived before this or how you grew up. But even with that, it's not just the car culture. It's not just the struggles to get connected with people. It's not just the kind of flip social anxiety of the modern condition where you're like, yeah, I'll be there in 20 minutes. And then people are two hours late.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There is something.

[B]

Or they just don't show up. And everyone in LA is like, the biggest flake on earth, Right?

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. But that's a factor. But it's not just that, like, it is this agglomeration of, like, sinking into your couch and wishing that you were doing a little bit better so that you can go out into the world. And that has. I think that's become increasingly true for many people in many cities. But this movie really hits on kind of how you combat that. Right. The Betty spirit in this movie where she's like, I'll go up for the job. I'll meet a new person. I'll have a conversation with a stranger.

[B]

Yeah. I won't kick her out of my entente.

[A]

Yes, I will be seduced by this amnesiac bombshell.

[B]

Three years saying, yes, it is.

[A]

It is. We love Betty. We love Betty's spirit, but she's a fantasy. You know, that's not real. Very few people are like that here. Everybody here is like, I'm doing my best.

[B]

She's also really good at her job. And then it goes really well. I mean, that audition scene.

[A]

Let's talk about that. Let's talk about Naomi Watts in general. A couple months ago, the Ringer did their list of the 25 greatest screen performances, film performances of the 21st century. I thought they very cleverly and smartly chose this performance very wise, for a variety of reasons. Naomi Watts, at this point, essentially an unknown. She had been working for some years, famously very close friends with Nicole Kidman. But David lynch saw a photograph of her and cast her off of the photograph. He said, that's the girl looking at it. Which is kind of like Hollywood Story.

[B]

It's literally. And then that happens in the film itself. She uses it. This is the girl.

[A]

Yes. And she is remarkable in this movie. The whole thing rests on her shoulders. With no disrespect to Laura Herring. Like, she is not one tenth the actress that Naomi wants is either. So she has to carry every single moment of the film. And she also has this dual role that emerges in the final quarter. And it's one of the most stunning arrivals of a true star and great actress, certainly this century. Yeah. I'm sure there are other examples that we can think of from the past. But I don't know. What do you make of Naomi Watts in the movie?

[B]

Well, she's playing literally two characters. But there are so many doubles and mirrors and confusing, you know, confusions in this movie that she's playing, like, probably just one person, but also, like, eight different people. She's got to populate different shades of where Betty is, where Diane is. Where, like Rita. Because Rita, at some point is just doing what Diane is. Right down to the wig. Yeah. And. And. And, you know, also maybe to the performances.

[A]

So.

[B]

And then she also has this amazing audition scene where then she has to, like. She has to be an actress playing an actress, auditioning. And she's unreal in the scene. It's so good. And this movie does have a few moments, like the Silencio Cafe being another one of them. Where the film closes in on faces. And you are just completely drawn in by the exact. And there's not a lot of even, like, surrealism or weird stuff going on. It's just someone acting or singing or doing something very real in front of you. And then every single time, it absolutely pulls the rug out from under the moment as well. Cause she's so good in a ridiculous soap opera that also turns out to be in her imagination. That we. As best we can tell.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's a fair reading of the sequence. It's an example of a thing that you see over and over again in lynch stuff. Which is these moments of hypnosis where for three minutes you just find yourself stuck inside the movie. And when she is doing that audition, which is really challenging because it's one of those things that is a huge test for an actor or filmmaker. When you're talking about an imaginary great film or an imaginary great performance. When you're writing a script and then you say to someone, make it real or a pop song. You know that thing you do, thing that we were talking about with Chris a couple of weeks ago where it's like, now that song's gotta be that good.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And she has to be that good because everybody in the room is like, whoa, holy shit, that was so good.

[B]

And it rarely is and you never land it.

[A]

And it's because I think in the scene, it's very hard to talk about acting as an untrained person and what is good or not good about acting. But in that scene, she's doing a thing. She's doing a thing that you hear actors talk about all the time, which is making choices, about the way that she's reading lines, about the timbre of her voice, about how loud or quiet she is, about how she physically connects with the other actor who's this really hammy, grabby old timey soap star. And you can feel him being transformed during her performance. And he is becoming a better actor without saying anything as she is exploring this monologue. It's transformational. It's like, it is the thing that, you know, it probably doesn't really happen that often in movies. We can say like, oh my God, that guy was so good in this movie. I loved his performance. What it meant is like we liked seeing him and being around him, you know, that his charisma was carried. This is more of a technical execution.

[B]

Of like the choices. I mean, in a lot of ways it's the Meryl Streep doing Clint Eastwood choice of just of being quiet. And she said that she based Devil Wears Prada on Clint Eastwood, never raising the voice.

[A]

So.

[B]

But there was choice of restraint and keeping things lower and drawing everyone into you is at least what the character in the movie is doing, which is, you know, there are layers to it as well. Just in terms of who we're talking about.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit. For the next one, just go to LinkedIn.com TheBigPicture Terms and Conditions apply. There's a very funny self dig in that sequence too. Because the most kind of checked out and phony person in that scene is the director. And the director is like, yes, a little. What does he say?

[B]

Don't make it real until it's real.

[A]

But what he says after the performance where he's like maybe a little bit. What is the word he uses? It's like effortful, but good, but very good. You know, it's like very bullshitty, kind of vague. Just trying to be like, encouraging, but also maintain authority, which is something that a lot of filmmakers will do, especially over actresses. You know, like, there's some self knowledge there, I think, that lynch is, you know, putting inside of this.

[B]

This scene also has some of the only, like pure, like comedy jokes in the movie, in everyone making fun of the director because he gives some ridiculous notes. And then you like see everybody roll their eyes and be like, what is he talking about?

[A]

Yes, yes. I mean, he seems like he's barely paying attention, which is wonderful. And, you know, I think lynch has a real affinity for actresses. If you see, if you've ever seen Laura Dern talk about David lynch, you know, they were like best friends and, you know, she was very much his muse and they worked together many times. And they just have this overwhelming affection for him, even though he makes these really transgressive, rough movies.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Inland Empire, which comes after. This is a very tough, hard movie, also about an actress who is doubling. And Lordran plays two different women and he kind of returns to these ideas over and over again. These kind of glamorous women that are imperiled. But you can sense that he has a real sensitivity with them. He just gets the best out of them. Right. And that's really important when you're a great filmmaker.

[B]

Isabella Rossellini, when talking about Blue Velvet and kind of the backlash and the readings of Blue Velvet as misogynistic or exploitative. I was a grown woman. I was 31 years old and I chose to play this. And David understands it. So I think, yeah, they do. The actresses like working with him and I feel understood and part of the process, even if it gets a little ugly. But, you know, women can be ugly too.

[A]

They certainly can not on this show. No, they're always beautiful and not really.

[B]

I guess they're ugly emotionally in this movie, but everyone's looking pretty great.

[A]

Yeah, There are no heroes.

[B]

A lot of the reveals talk about how when Naomi Watts turns into Diane, she's, like, unrecognizable. And I was like, let's calm down here. These are two very beautiful women. Her hair is a little straighter.

[A]

Well, I think what the film does really well, which is very simple, is, you know, the makeup is different, the coloring is different.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

She doesn't look radically different. She just looks like what would happen if things went bad, you know, and that is a clever choice. You know, her costuming is. Is. Is. Is more muted. She just seems a little dirtier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's like her face isn't different.

[B]

She is still Naomi Watts.

[A]

Yes. But it's her performance. I think that that's really. Is hopefully nodding to. I did also want to just shout out the diner scene, which I mentioned that I saw it when I was in college. And this is the most scared I've ever been in a movie. It's Patrick Fishler, incredible character actor, who is sitting across from the table and recounting this dream that he's had. And the movie just stops in the middle to go to this sequence. And this sequence is remarkable for a variety of reasons. The most important reason is the performances and the editing. But lynch chooses to cut out all sound in this scene. You cannot hear any of the other patrons inside the diner talking. And so you're focused entirely on what Fischler's character is trying to recount about this dream. And then the dream starts to happen in real time when the person he is sitting across from, who's quite rude and not thoughtful about the man's dream, gets up and stands and walks over to the cashier, just as he's just described that he's seen him at the very beginning of the stream. And then the friend is like, let's do it. Let's make the. Let's see what happens. Let's see what's behind the alleyway. And you're like, I'm in a David lynch film. Something terrible is about to happen. I know something terrible is about to happen. And you're waiting and you're waiting. And I say this as someone who loves horror movies, loves to be scared. Isn't really that scared of things. But I was like, what awfulness could possibly be awaiting these characters as this man is recounting the most shaken he's ever been from a dream in his entire life? And I'm so sold on what this character is saying and how this actor is saying it's. And what's revealed is, you Know, kind of silly.

[B]

Yeah. Just a.

[A]

Like a normal woman in makeup.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It looks like a regular jump scare. I don't know why, but I was, like, disemboweled by this. I was like, near tears. And I think it's because it does something effective, which is, like, I do find when I remember my dreams that they are very scary. I do not find that they are very fun. I wouldn't say I have fun dreams.

[B]

Does anyone have positive dreams, like, while sleeping? I don't know.

[A]

If you're out there, you know, just let us know.

[B]

I know. Like, you know, we're all here trying to live our dreams every day in our waking life. But, like, those are different from our sleeping.

[A]

But that's what's so wonderful about the word. Because when the word is invoked in day to day conversation, it's about aspirations.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It's about where you want to go and who you want to be, which is, of course, this movie is about. But when you and I sit down and we start talking about them, you won't even tell me what happened in your dream because you're afraid to reveal the darkest core of your sadness and fear.

[B]

But the thing is really that it's like, it's not particularly creative or artistic, you know, it is.

[A]

It's just a dream. You have no control over it. Why would. Who would judge you for that?

[B]

Well, I don't know. Wouldn't it be, like, it would be cool if I was like, you know, I was imagining, like, well, it looks like a Picasso painting and like, I had all these, like, rich symbolic things instead of being like, I don't know. Zach was mean to me. He was him. Yeah.

[A]

Eileen has very similar dreams, but I think that that's normal. I think that's okay. Like, I think that this movie is about. This movie is about what if I failed and what if I didn't and what if I could have not failed? You know? And that sequence, I think, really neatly summarizes the polarity of our feeling about the idea of dreams. That, you know, Betty is a manifestation of what could be. It's a hope.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the diner is the darkness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What really scares us, what really fucks with us. And of course, we get that character, that woman, who, of course, is the same actress who portrays the nun in the nun films, I'll have you know. Okay. You know, that character is identified as a man in the film, but is played by a woman. And she's become an icon of cinema just by having a scary face.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Quite A good living, if you can get it, I guess.

[B]

Exactly. You know, use what you.

[A]

Have you mentioned. No, I banda and silencio. Also an unforgettable scene where. So Betty is awoken in the middle of the night because she hears Rita utter the word silencio and no Ibnda and no Ibonda and is an indicator that they must go to this club. And they enter the club. And there are a lot of scenes in a lot of lynch films and TV shows that feature musicians performing in front of a red curtain. The red curtain in Twin Peaks. This idea of this desolate place where the stragglers of society gather to watch sad music. Yeah. So that's another motif that recurs in this film. But Rebecca Del Rio, who performs in this scene is like. Is mesmerizing. And we also see that thing where we watch other people be mesmerized by a piece of music. But they do announce that the film. That the music is recorded. This is recording.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so when she faints mid prose, what do you think? What do you. What do you think she fainted from?

[B]

I mean, I don't know. It seems like a cursed room, honestly. You know, like, at some. Before she starts singing, the Betty character is, like, having convulsions for no reason. It seems like bad juju in there. And I'm not really like an La Woo Woo type of person, but whatever energy people are trying to correct has found its way there.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, part of what's so great about that Twin Peaks episode that I was talking to, talking about from the Return is that that's an episode that attempts to actually explore the origins of evil. Like, that's actually a pretty bold choice to try to reach back 10, 20, 50, 100 years into choices that are made by human beings that kind of corrode our soul. And that scene is just another example of it. Great movie.

[B]

Really good.

[A]

What a fascinating film.

[B]

Good job, everyone.

[A]

Good job. Well done. David lynch, the film's legacy, you know, you mentioned pretty. I wouldn't. It's not unanimous. There were definitely detractors for this film, but there was a very immediate celebration of its greatness, which I find pretty fascinating. It competed for the Palm, but it did not win. It lost to a film called the Sun's Room, which I have not seen, but lynch did win for Best Director and it was nominated for just the one Oscar. You remember who he lost to in the Academy Awards that year?

[B]

Yes. You've written Ron Howard for A Beautiful Mind.

[A]

What do you think about that?

[B]

Which also Won Best Picture. I mean, so these oscars were what, February, March 2002. Weird time in America.

[A]

So. Yeah, well, it might have been appropriate to give Mulholland Drive the Academy Award.

[B]

But, you know, the Academy has not historically embraced, like, the most avant garde solution in times of strife.

[A]

I can't say I disagree with that. Roger Ebert, in his four star review wrote, this is a movie to surrender yourself to. If you require logic, see something else. I would quibble with that ever so slightly in that I think the movie is very readable if you choose to. It just resists the tidy solution that you're talking about. It's impenetrable in terms of solving it. But you can apply, and there is an incredible amount of extraordinary reading into what the film is representative of, and it stands up.

[B]

I read a later Ebert piece about a conference he attended in Colorado every year where they would. They'd pick one movie and they would. They'd go frame by frame. And so anyone in the audience could say, stop, I want. You know, and they would analyze, like, the composition and the symbols and kind of spend 12 hours on a movie with Roger Ebert. And so one year they picked Mulholland Drive. And I think it was Roger Ebert's pick. And he's like, I'm really gonna get to the bottom of this. And the piece is about there's many theories that were explored in this group. And at the end, he was like, nope. And I'm no closer to. You know, it's like this format does not, you know, does not have all of the answers.

[A]

Yeah, it's a movie that's ultimately about a feeling or a series of feelings, at least, which is part of. I mean, it's just like in the Mood for Love in that way. In the Mood for Love is not a movie to be solved. It's a movie to be felt. And that one is a little bit more romantic. This one is a little bit more evil. This film is number two on both the main poll and the reader's poll for the New York Times. Now, that, to me is surprising.

[B]

Right? So I began to wonder if this is just sort of like this is more about the methodology. I don't know how they're weighting and ranking stuff, but if enough people are putting it somewhere in the top 10, then. And I think most people, especially that list, was done this summer. So, you know, Lynch's passing was in the mind. And so a lot of people picked up Mulholland Drive.

[A]

It's a very good point.

[B]

So I wondered if it was like a little bit recency bias or just kind of the number of mentions.

[A]

Well, I think it's a convergence of that very specific recency bias along with the fact that it has been rising in the canon. So in 2012, on the sight and Sound poll, it was at number 22. In 2022, it was at number 8. So this is, you know, simultaneously. And some of this is about a great artist getting older. So even before he passed, kind of recognizing his great works. I think this movie, just like you were describing when you were 17, is a little bit of a keystone to outsider surrealist cinema. You know, you wouldn't start with Boonwell, you'd probably start with this movie because you're like, oh, Naomi Watts is in this. I'll check it out. And then that leads you down a rabbit hole of trying to understand all the things that influenced Lynch. And as you become a real cinephile and try to understand all these styles and genres, he's just a very helpful portal into this kind of film and filmmaking. I already asked you this. Does it make sense if you haven't seen Blue Velvet or Twin Peaks? I'd like to get. I'm curious for some younger movie fans, opinions about this. We have a lot of younger listeners who haven't seen the collected works of David Lynch. So if you sit down and you are 20 and you are in film school and you watch this movie with Roger Ebert and he breaks it down for you scene by scene, are you getting it? Are you really? Are you grasping the tonality?

[B]

I believe in the younger generation.

[A]

I do, too. I'm not trying to undermine that.

[B]

First of all, if they want to let us know politely, they can. But also, how would they do that?

[A]

Where can they find you?

[B]

That's part of the process, is problem solving. Okay. That's the education we're offering here at the Big Picture. But, yeah, I think in particular, the younger generation, if you're also. If you are a cinephile at this point and you're seeking out, you're like, okay, here is. David lynch is like a blind spot in my repertoire, then you at least know something, right?

[A]

Oh, of course.

[B]

You know enough to know, like, oh, I gotta seek out David Lynch. So then I think you're emotionally prepared for this.

[A]

Yeah. He's also, obviously someone who has engendered a tremendous amount of respect from his peers as filmmakers and actors. So if you hear them talk about.

[B]

It, a lot of ripoffs that are quite bad.

[A]

It's a very good point. We didn't even talk about that. This also just sets up a long trail of movies that are kind of like this but aren't very good. And that's the thing is he also, you know, this movie didn't make any money. He jokes about this in this criteria interview that I referenced where he's just sort of like, yeah, critics loved it but nobody saw it. He does still have that kind of down home corn pone direct conversation style where he's just like, we're making movies for people out here. He's making the strangest, most elusive, mysterious films. But he wants to be seen and he wants to be understood, but he doesn't want to have to explain.

[B]

Well, same.

[A]

Wow. Wow. Well, that's moving. So what movies is this movie standing in for? Yeah, I would say that there are two tracts here. Yeah. So what is the first track that you wrote down?

[B]

Movies about Hollywood.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think eligible movies about Hollywood Adaptation, Babylon, La La Land and A Star Is Born to Bradley Cooper.

[A]

What do you think Bradley Cooper thinks of David Lynch? Now we know he has portrayed the Elephant man on Broadway.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So of course I'm sure he's seen this film.

[B]

I'm sure he's like, David lynch was a great friend, you know, because that's what Bradley Cooper says about everyone.

[A]

I wonder if they were friends. So the other kind of genre that it's standing in for are what I'm describing as anti logic psychological nightmare movies which have also been very common in the last 25 years, especially in a post 911 world where this feeling of disorientation and disruption has been coming over the often male psyche, I will say sometimes the female psyche. But you know, Donnie Darko is an example of this. Synecdoche. New York Beau Is Afraid is a recent example of this very. In Dead, it's a Lynch Black Swan. There are others, I think if you want to go back into the past. The movie like Don't look now is an interesting example of this. The violation of the male psyche and male power, you know, and then what violence is wrought upon us anyhow?

[B]

Do you think a lot of Aronofsky fans at home crying because Black Swan's not on the list?

[A]

I never really considered it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I like that movie.

[B]

Sorry, I haven't seen it in many years. I don't think I disliked it.

[A]

Okay. I think it's very effectively doing what it's trying to do. It's cribbing from a lot of Polanski. It's a lot of Polanski. But that's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Recommended if you like. Now those were what these movies are standing in for. This is like. If you dig these movies, you might dig this. The first one that came to mind was Showgirls.

[B]

It's a really good, really good pull.

[A]

Showgirls. Also about the way that the world of entertainment, the male run world of entertainment, destroys women's souls.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And features a remarkable performance by Elizabeth Berkeley. Misunderstood at the time. Also features a longtime lynch stand in Kyle MacLachlan True in a role as a bad man.

[B]

Yeah. I mean Showgirls is now incredibly understood, you know, and more understood every day.

[A]

Thank you to Adam Naiman for writing an entire book about it. Other recommended if you'd like, I think blow up another movie about seeing women through a male lens. Sure. And death and murder. Gonego.

[B]

This one's funny. Yeah. Really good.

[A]

That'd be a good double feature.

[B]

I could see it. What a great movie.

[A]

I mean Sunset Boulevard, of course, which is the movie that lynch is probably asked about most in terms of its correlation.

[B]

Right. I mean we do actually see Sunset Boulevard. Right. After we see. We go from Mulholland Drive to Sunset Boulevard through the brush. Which you know is a tough journey. Irl.

[A]

It is. Have you done it? Have you climbed down yourself?

[B]

I tried a couple times like when I first moved to la. And when I like. I refuse to relinquish the walkability of New York City and that's like. No, no, no, we'll like walk down. But, but even, even for me, this would be quite a journey.

[A]

It's difficult. Two of the great films named after streets in Los Angeles. Any other great films.

[B]

I mean Blue Velvet or really any of the. Any of the lynch movies.

[A]

But yeah, I mean this was a no brainer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Too high. Too low. Feel good about its placement. Um.

[B]

Just right.

[A]

Just right.

[B]

Yeah. Just like Goldilocks.

[A]

So this is number six.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we have five more to go.

[B]

We do.

[A]

Do you want to do any trades?

[B]

Well, you have been mentioning one that you want to do.

[A]

Well, I don't really know how to pull it off.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I'm thinking on something.

[B]

All right.

[A]

And I'm not going to spoil it here on the pod right now.

[B]

That's the thing, is that we can't actually talk about.

[A]

I don't wanna. I just wanna. I wanna make content in life. I don't wanna make recorded content. Okay, that's good. I wanna have a content conversation that's beautiful with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Behind closed doors.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. Well, thanks to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. We are just days away from our live event. That's right, our screening, our secret screening which is actually going to be of the number four film on our list. So we're going to ask all of the people who attend to not seeing that.

[B]

I've got a whole plan, I got a whole. You just gotta stand there for.

[A]

We're going to have a heart to heart great news. Yeah, I'm very happy to hear that.

[B]

Then you might have to pose but okay.

[A]

Well I'm very good at that as we all know. I'm very good at taking photographs. And yeah, we will be back later this week with a conversation about Frankenstein and Die My Love. Yeah, two films candidly that have a lot to do with Mulholland Drive. We'll see you then. Sam.