Loading summary
Transcript256 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:11]
B
I'm Sean Fennessy.
- [00:12]
A
I'm Amanda Dobbins.
- [00:13]
B
And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about in the Mood for Love. It is a restless moment here on 25 for 25. We have reached number seven, which is Wong Kar Wai's certified masterpiece. A hard movie to talk about for a variety of reasons.
- [00:30]
A
Sure. Well, it's. It's not word based, it's not. It's not word based and it's not. There are actually a few important conversations within the film, but even those conversations are, are, are doing double work and are imagined conversations and are not in the here and now. So it's not, it's not a movie about two people sitting across a table and chatting.
- [00:56]
B
Yes, you know it is. Well, they are, but they're not saying.
- [00:59]
A
What they really are and they're. They're saying something else to other people. And what they want to say to each other is not said.
- [01:11]
B
This episode is presented by LinkedIn ads.
- [01:13]
A
Sometimes marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. Like if you see an ad for movie themed dog sweaters when you don't.
- [01:19]
B
Even have a pet, reach exactly who you need with LinkedIn ads. With a network of 130 million decision makers, they can help you target by job title, industry, company size, or even skills. It's one of the reasons LinkedIn ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them.
- [01:37]
A
Try it out. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com TheBigPicture Terms and Conditions apply.
- [01:50]
B
This film was released in the United States of America in 2001. In March of 2001, it premiered at the Cannes Film Festival. It was pretty quickly declared great, but not at the level that it exists at now in the culture. Wong Kar Wai, the great Hong Kong filmmaker, had been making films for, you know, more than a decade by this point. He'd already made a couple of certified classics, Chunking Express among them. This movie simultaneously feels like a perfect representation of what he does, but also quite different. A kind of elevation of style of a lot of the things that he had done. A lot of his movies feel much more sort of like kinetic and messy and faster moving. And this is a very purposeful, intentional, composed movie. One of the most beautifully composed films of the century.
- [02:41]
A
Everyone is quite literally framed by a hallway or a doorway or a window or some other transitional space.
- [02:49]
B
Yes, it is also produced by Wong. It stars Maggie Chung and Tony Leung. That's more or less it. A handful of other actors are in this film. It's shot in part by Christopher Doyle, the great cinematographer who's best known for his work with Wong and also Ping Bin Lee, when Christopher Doyle just left the movie in the middle of the production, as he is wont to do so. This movie was shot over 15 months despite a profound lack of dialogue, and it has had such an interesting life in the movies. And it's on this list for a variety of reasons, and we can talk about all of those reasons. But I actually want to start near the end, which is that I think that this is one of the most influential movies ever made. And I want to give you room to talk about Sofia Coppola talking about Juan. And, you know, Barry Jenkins has been very open about his admiration. And there is, I think, a generation of, for lack of a better phrase, art house filmmakers who bring a lot of Wong Kar Wai to their work. There is another way in which it is very, very influential, though, and that it makes it very different from the other Wong movies, which is that this movie is very influential on watch and perfume commercials. And there is a kind of tonality and a reaching for the beautiful image that you see in a lot of advertising. And that's not why it's on this list, per se, but. But it has made a huge imprint on our culture that I think is relatively unacknowledged because we think of it as film fans, as movie podcasters. It's incredible cinematic achievement. Yeah, but in the world that we live in, I feel this movie all the time.
- [04:25]
A
Absolutely. I mean, you may not distinguish between advertising and fashion, and the line goes back and forth, but this is hugely influential in the fashion world as well. But the composition, but really the color and the two things that stood out to me while rewatching this movie, as I did last night, was, you know, like, everyone knows that this. This is like the color study and the color theory in this movie is out of this world. And I said I saved my red shirt to wear for this, because I was like, oh, I should do it. You know, it looks great. Like, thank you so much.
- [04:58]
B
I did not wear red on purpose.
- [04:59]
A
What is like, you know, I don't totally understand what synesthesia is, but this movie gets the. The closest to it of creating. Using the color to actually create physical feeling. To me, it's like. I mean, there are some actual electric colors in it, but this is. We were talking about action film. Action as like, fine art filmmaking. With Mad Max Fury Road, I was about to say Mad Max Die Hard with a Vengeance because Chris Ryan lives rent free in my head. But this is like. This could hang next to a Matisse, you know, this could hang next to like. It's a different type of color from an Ellsworth Kelly. But the things that I respond to in art and often in fashion, like the color is what I respond to so much in this movie. So it's hugely influential, right. In, like, in what we buy, what we see, what people are telling us is aesthetically valuable, I guess. And then you mentioned Sofia Coppola, but I never had a moment's doubt about picking Marie Antoinette. But I was reminded, oh, yeah, we don't need to have Lost in Translation on this list because we have in the Mood for Love. And Sofia Coppola acknowledged that she thanked Wong Kar Wai in her Oscar acceptance speech for best screenplay for Lost in Translation. But we can have it all in this particular case because this movie is. And it's not just like the structure and the transitional. Two people who don't say what they mean and transitional spaces and like a secret at the end, but, you know, like the mood, the music. I think some people have often unfavorably compared Sofia Coppola films to perfume commercials. She's also directed a couple great perfume commercials, by the way, because art can be found anywhere.
- [06:54]
B
Yes.
- [06:56]
A
But this as, like, ecstatic tone piece is. It's really the peak.
- [07:04]
B
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Just like choosing a movie to stream, State Farm has options to choose from to help you find coverage that best fits your needs. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state. I think it really ripples through filmmaking culture in a very serious way. And, you know, this is perhaps the great romantic movie of the century as well. We've talked about a couple of them here in these conversations, but this is one that, because it's effectively unrequited, you know, that there's no. Or no consummation.
- [07:48]
A
I consummated.
- [07:48]
B
Yeah. That it creates a sense of longing that I think is very present in contemporary culture. I think that because people experience their life through screens more now, this feeling of I can't have what I want is very Resonant. And that's obviously. This is a film set in Hong Kong in 1962. Two married people come to move into the same apartment complex, and they essentially live next door to each other, and they both have traveling spouses. And the revelation of the film is that these two people who are at this kind of interesting, I guess they're in their late 30s, maybe in this movie, Maggie Chung and Tony Leung, I would say mid. Okay, mid-30s, maybe. Maggie Chung is eternal and we will get to her in a moment. But Wong was in his early 40s when he made this movie, and I think that's relevant. I think people reach a certain phase of their life, a certain age in their life, and they start reflecting on, do I have the things that I really want? Am I really happy? Where is my partner tonight? Why are they not home with me? And so the film, while it could seem, I think if you're not a foreign film fan or if you're not a cinephile, a movie like this could feel difficult to penetrate. Right. To get past, to get into it. Because it's a period piece in another language. It is from a filmmaker. You're like, oh, do I have to see all their work beforehand? The movie is, I think, very contained.
- [09:11]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:11]
B
And it's not hard to put your arms around if you just think about what's going on in these characters minds, you know, and why they're feeling the way that they're feeling now. That being said, one of the things that I do like about it and the way that the Wong who shows up in like, Days of Being Wild appears in this movie is there is a little bit of perversion in the movie. Because these two people who find each other and they see that they have a connection and they start spending time together and they kind of start dancing around their feelings for one another. And then Lung's character decides he wants to write a serial about what they discover in their conversations, which is that their partners are not just not present and maybe not just having an affair, but they're having an affair with each other. And then he wants to write the serial about them having their affair, which is. That's very Hitchcock.
- [10:00]
A
Yeah.
- [10:01]
B
You know, that's a little kinky and a little weird and a little bit of like, what a stifled man. To process his troubled feelings rather than just taking them out on a woman by ravishing her with his love. This character doesn't know how to do that. He knows how to sit quietly and write while a woman observes him. And they Talk about story structure. And that's really interesting. You know, that's not. This isn't like some stuffy period piece. It's a little strange.
- [10:29]
A
I mean, excuse me, don't be stuffy period piece. Because what I, you know, this does have. This understands all the emotions that are boiling beneath the surface and are restrained or repressed in all of those.
- [10:44]
B
Your beloved Victorian dramas.
- [10:45]
A
Yes. Well, they're not Victorian Tudor dramas. Like Edwardian.
- [10:49]
B
Edwardian. Okay, got it.
- [10:52]
A
And, you know, and Merchant Ivory would.
- [10:53]
B
Be a man down event. What would you call it? What is your era called? I guess a Mandanian.
- [11:01]
A
Yeah, no, that. Because that sounds too much like whatever Natalie Portman's character in the Queen Amidala. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Padme. Yes, sure. Yeah, we'll go with that. But when they're doing what is effectively role playing, you know, they have many rehearsed conversations where they're talking about how they would speak to their spouse or confront their spouse or they're. They're. I mean, it's role playing. There is actual kink in that as well.
- [11:29]
B
There is.
- [11:30]
A
So it's messed up. It also is quite sad. It really struck me on this rewatch, and maybe it's just the age in my life, like, these are. These people are coming to this relationship from not just like an inability to access their emotions for each other, but they're completely cut off from their spouses and from the world. There are so many shots of these people alone in, like, small rooms being quiet. And the. And the framing so often goes to emphasize just like, how small their lives are. And so they have these feelings for each other, but they can't express them. And the feelings are born out of such loneliness and sadness that I'm like, is this even. I mean, it is romantic, but it is also, what is the nature of romance?
- [12:24]
B
Something, Right?
- [12:24]
A
Yeah, it's tough. It's tough stuff.
- [12:29]
B
Yeah. It's obviously kept being counteracted by two of the most beautiful stars of all time.
- [12:34]
A
And even, like, I think, like early 30s, probably, I think we're really flattering ourselves.
- [12:39]
B
Like, I know, but those, I mean, both of those actors were making movies in the, in the 80s, definitely. You know, Tony Wong was in movies in like 1985.
- [12:47]
A
But, like, spoiler alert, I guess there's a young son at the end of the movie that would indicate that we're sort of like early to mid-30s.
- [12:57]
B
There are a lot of images in this movie of characters not talking.
- [13:01]
A
Yeah.
- [13:02]
B
Which is very the opposite of what you expect from a Hollywood Production, especially Hollywood television. The camera never looks at a person that doesn't talk. The camera never looks for a reaction. This is a movie of quiet, sometimes anguished, but mostly recessed contemplation. And that in and of itself doesn't sound like it would be tremendously cinematic, but when you combine all of these various filmmaking techniques. So you mentioned the color already. And that color manifests in the production design, in the spaces that they are in, especially in Maggie Cheung's Cheong Song's those dresses, which are just electrifying. Some of the most memorable and influential costumes in movie history. And then the music also is a major factor in making you feel a certain way.
- [13:53]
A
Right.
- [13:54]
B
You know, Yumeji's theme, which plays over and over again in this film. Another thing that I think is very influential on watch commercials. I think you've heard that score from another Japanese film that was made some 10 years earlier over and over again in various luxury goods commercials. But in this movie, it's used, I think, as this motif to create this sense of like, here we go again. I'm fucking lonely. Why can't I be loved in this sad and difficult world? And I like the origins that Wong talks about with this film. He's born in the late 50s and he moved from China to Hong Kong. And he arrived in Hong Kong at a time of kind of great transition in that space where you had a lot of immigrants coming over from the mainland. And there was this sense that there was like, people attempting to experience high society in, like, lower class environments and like constantly showing us the elegance of this world of suited men and women in elegant dresses, but also like five noisy neighbors playing mahjong next door. And like, everybody lives in a sardine can.
- [15:04]
A
Yeah.
- [15:04]
B
And that contrast of this human desire, I think, to live a bigger and more beautiful life that everybody has. Right. Like, everybody wants to be pulled from the mundanity that they're born into. To be a little bit more special, a little bit more beautiful, a little.
- [15:24]
A
Bit more to not be the person left at home.
- [15:26]
B
Yes.
- [15:28]
A
And they keep getting gifts that the husband brings home from, you know, like, oh, my husband is traveling abroad, but there's the rice cooker, there's the purse, there are the multiple purses, There are all sorts of. There is a sense that there is a bigger, brighter world out there that other people are living in.
- [15:52]
B
Yes. But also that you could be mollified by receiving these things and then just sitting with your objects without having, like, the feeling of being in that world, which is we do see this in a lot of mid century American fiction. And Mad Men was very much about this. I would be very surprised if Matthew Weiner was not a fan of in the Mood for Love because there's a lot of similar ideas, at least about the way that people live in this time in history. And it's very unusual because, like I said, this movie's largely improvised and they took a really long time to make it. And it sounds like it's very difficult to work with Wong, but Tony Leung has worked with him seven times. Maggie Chung has worked with him five times. So they understand his methodology. Yeah, I find watching a lot of his movies that there is like a kind of like chaos on the edges of the frame. And this is the only one really, for me, maybe other. I guess this is maybe the beginning of a new era where like 2046 and the Grandmaster are these much more like tightly managed movies. And the earlier films feel very realized in real time.
- [16:58]
A
Yeah.
- [16:58]
B
And so this movie being this kind of bridge between that painterly color theory that you're talking about, but also the idea of them, like, arriving on set and being like, what if we did it like this? Or what if we went to this location and did the same scene?
- [17:08]
A
And it does also, there are so many small moments in this movie or gestures or, you know, they're never words, but they are. Whether it's Maggie Chung kind of like grabbing her hand, you know, grabbing her arm to express whatever, that you can find them, like, running. You can imagine them running a bunch of times until they find, like, this moment. Or I can see that you're doing this small thing with the, you know, the way that you tilt your head. But in this frame it communicates what we want to say about xyz. But like, you would have to run it a lot of times, I think, to find the moments that feel as unstudied as they do, but also as revealing.
- [17:55]
B
I agree. I was thinking about this in the context of chatting with Paul Thomas Anderson on the POD about one battle after another. And he said something in that conversation that I've been thinking about ever since, which is that they would go out and shoot a scene and then they would look at it and then they would go out the next day and they would shoot the same scene in a different way, and then they would go back and then they would look at it again and then they would shoot a third time. And so he would take three days for individual scenes and reshoot them, which I'm sure plenty of people do. This. But that's very unusual for a Hollywood movie. It's all about getting the scene, getting what the plan is for the day. And it is more in the mode that we're talking about here with Wong Kar Wai, where you're able to kind of like, look very closely at what you're capturing, and then if it's not working, dispense with it and go somewhere else and try something else. Or just a different gesture, as you're saying, just touch your face in this way so I can get exactly what I want, not what I have, like, enough money to pay for on this day because of the crunch of the circumstances. But we are being exacting in the way that a fine artist can be because they're working by themselves. Films don't usually work that way because so many people work on them and they cost so much money.
- [19:07]
A
Right.
- [19:08]
B
And that's another thing that I think makes this movie stand out from other films is you can feel that level of intentionality that is also defined by looseness.
- [19:17]
A
Right.
- [19:18]
B
Which is just a really cool paradox of moviemaking. And one of the things that I love reading about this movie, there's a huge feature in the New Yorker written by Kyle Chayka in which he talks about both the filmmaking and what went into it and then the ways in which it has gone into the world.
- [19:34]
A
Yes.
- [19:36]
B
And it's very insightful, if you are interested in this movie. But it is one of those films that it's a bit like David Lynch's stuff. Right. When it comes out and people are like, huh, this is really interesting. And then 20 years later, you're still talking about it and you're still unpacking it and you're still figuring it out. I did want to shout out William Chang Suk Ping, who is, I think, the undersung hero of many of these Wong movies, in part because he is the film editor, the production designer and the costume designer on a bunch of his films.
- [20:10]
A
That's three big ones.
- [20:11]
B
Those are three important jobs in these movies, especially because of the way. And this movie is really cut.
- [20:17]
A
Right?
- [20:17]
B
Right. Like, there's a lot.
- [20:18]
A
I mean, and that, like, that is the mood, the actual mood of in the Mood for Love. The tone of the movie is encompassed in, you know, that plus music is what his job is.
- [20:30]
B
So another thing I wanted to point out is that this movie is only 98 minutes long, but it feels long.
- [20:37]
A
Sure.
- [20:37]
B
They take their time and it's on purpose. Right. A lot of times you say, like, oh, man, this movie felt like it was six hours long. As a pejorative about a movie, this is a case where I think it's like, please sit inside of these feelings.
- [20:50]
A
Yes.
- [20:51]
B
You're not allowed to look away from these people being unable to realize what they need.
- [20:57]
A
They're small events, but big feelings. And so it is supposed to be an epic, I think of emotion or of melodrama. You know, like, I think it wants you to really feel the sweeping nature of what's going on underneath if, even if it's not happening on the screen.
- [21:16]
B
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's nothing better than having friends who support you in your passions.
- [21:22]
A
It's so true. I'm so grateful to have Sean support me as I explore my interest in four case.
- [21:32]
B
Like those friends, State Farm is there to help you along the way. With so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have support in finding what fits for you.
- [21:39]
A
Go online@statefarm.com or use the award winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [21:48]
B
Is this the greatest smoking film of the 21st century?
- [21:51]
A
Yeah. There's that one shot where some of the smoke is blue and some of the smoke is. I mean, it's really.
- [21:57]
B
How'd they do that?
- [21:58]
A
Yeah, I don't know.
- [21:59]
B
Gels on the lights, perhaps?
- [22:01]
A
Good job. Them.
- [22:02]
B
Yeah, it's really quite beautiful.
- [22:03]
A
Really? Yeah.
- [22:06]
B
And yeah, I think the more times that I look at it, the more it feels like an outlier in this entire run of Hong Kong filmmakers. And it's interesting that it has become such a.
- [22:22]
A
Right, such a touchstone because it is. It's the exception. And this. Well, I think. I mean, it does borrow from a lot of conventions that are more familiar to Western audiences, even as it's also, you know, breaking a lot of them. And it has a very particular style, but it is, you know, it is a period drama romance. You know, it's just like a more recent period than we're used to seeing. And there are a lot of like, you know, they all have like office jobs. There is a sense of capitalism and all of these things underpinning all of it. So I, you know, you can see, or maybe it's just that other people have translated it so often for us now that when we watch it, I mean, you know, we. I guess I saw this fairly soon after its release, but it is interesting to watch it after 25 years of in the Mood for Love, like being in pop culture and being disseminated in the way that you were discussing. And, you know, what did we recognize the first time we saw it versus what are we seeing now that it's been reflected back to us, like, 15 times?
- [23:32]
B
Yeah, I think that's probably going to continue to. Cause it's a movie that, you know, Criterion issued all of Wong's movies in a box set maybe three years ago, which is when we had a conversation on this show. We did a whole episode about Wong's work with Justin Chang that people should go back and check out if they're interested in his movies. Then this movie is reissued in 4K. 4K. 4K is quite beautiful. If you're looking for an excuse to get a 4K player, in the Mood for Love would be a reasonable one. Let's talk quickly about Tony Leung and Maggie Chung. So Maggie Chung doesn't really work anymore. I don't think she's been in a movie in, like, 10 years. And she just kind of stepped away. There was a time when she was possibly considered the most beautiful person in movies. Yeah, for a pretty long stretch there. You know, that time between, like, when she's a hero in, like, Police Story and the Heroic Trio all the way through Irma Vet, probably. And then you get this movie as a kind of, like, real, like, her, like, true, perfect romantic role. But her and Tony Leung are also not really known for movies like this. Like, most of their movies are action movies, comedies, you know, Tony Leung last seen by most American audiences in Shang Chi. I think he's Shang Chi's dad. Yeah, he's pretty good in that. And we saw this moment, you know, with Michelle Yeoh, another actress in a Cut from a very similar cloth. She worked with both of these actors many times, having, like, her grand Hollywood moment with everything everywhere all at once and winning, and then booking, like, nine jobs in Hollywood movies after that, and everyone being like, yeah, it is time that we acknowledge Michelle Yeoh. And it did have me thinking about these two actors. There's a handful of other actors who were in Wong's movies who I came to know and, like, follow their work to other stuff, but they haven't quite had their. Like, among cinephiles. They're. They're renowned.
- [25:29]
A
Right, Right.
- [25:29]
B
But they're not. They're not in, like, the pantheon of regular folk talking about Hollywood movies. Not that they need to be, but this is obviously an American movie podcast, so I kind of wanted to put a circle around them. Like, I wonder if there would there be a time when a filmmaker could convince Maggie Chung Could Steven Soderbergh can convince Maggie Chung to come out of retirement and make a movie?
- [25:47]
A
I mean, it would be amazing. It would have to be that, right? And I think some of it is just that Michelle Yeoh actually did make everything everywhere, all at once with the Daniels. And that was a unexpected moment all its own. Super deserving. But we were all like, wow, okay, this is just getting every Oscar, so it would be great.
- [26:07]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:08]
A
Maybe she doesn't wanna work, though. Maybe she's. Maybe she's just hanging out.
- [26:11]
B
I think she does. And God bless her, you know, I hope she's happy wherever she is right now.
- [26:16]
A
Fifteen months of this was enough, you know?
- [26:18]
B
Yeah. I think it's also because, like, those actors never had their, like, significant American crossover.
- [26:22]
A
Right.
- [26:22]
B
Like, Michelle Yeoh had Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Chow Yun Fat became like, a US movie star. That never happened for these actors, but they're incredible in this film. Restraint is so important. And in action movies and in comedies, it's the opposite. Like, it's like a very expressive acting style. You know, you need to be, like, over the top. And this movie is about stillness. Yes, exactly. And what can you read in the performer's stillness?
- [26:50]
A
Right.
- [26:51]
B
That is really challenging. So I think they're amazing in this film. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com TheBigPicture Terms and Conditions apply.
- [27:39]
A
So good, so good, so good.
- [27:42]
B
New markdowns are on at your Nordstrom Rack store. Save even more up to 70% on dresses, tops, boots and handbags to give and get.
- [27:51]
A
Cause I always find something amazing. Just so many good brands. I get an extra 5% off with my Nordstrom credit card. Total queen treatment.
- [27:59]
B
Join the Nordy Club at Nordstrom Rack to unlock our best deals.
- [28:03]
A
Big gifts, big perks.
- [28:05]
B
That's why you rack other musical choices. The I'VE listened many times, probably because of this movie, to the Nat King Cole Spanish language album. I know that's probably a weird image, me sitting alone in a room listening to Ki sauce.
- [28:23]
A
In what context are you putting it on?
- [28:26]
B
Just stark naked, four o' clock in the morning, just sitting quietly, sipping tea.
- [28:31]
A
Got it.
- [28:32]
B
Cool, Normal. And then all the score in the film, all the music. Music is a huge part of Wong style in general, but it's usually something a lot more energetic. And this is again, much more restrained.
- [28:46]
A
Yes. In slow mo. Literally.
- [28:48]
B
Literally. What do you think of the slow motion in this movie?
- [28:53]
A
I expect all of it. Like, some of it is so. So much of it is like traditional and controlled and composed. And then at one point last night I was like, wait, do I have this on like fast forward for some reason? Because some of the cuts and the subtitles and everything, as you said, he's playing with pace and temp and so. Sure, why not? Like, I expect that in this movie. And I guess in a Wong Kar Wai movie in general.
- [29:23]
B
Yeah. Like in Chunking Express, he does the same thing where he's like slowing down and you get that kind of like almost like flashing lights quality to some of the sequences. And yeah, he feels comfortable experimenting even in what could be like a pretty traditional staid film format. No shots to your Edwardian. They're dramedies. You like the dramedies, right? I like them all the comedies of manners.
- [29:47]
A
Yes. But I like a good swooning star crossed situation.
- [29:51]
B
How much do you think the forthcoming Wuthering Heights will be influenced by in the Mood for Love? Emerald Fennels. Fennels.
- [29:59]
A
You're not gonna bait me into that. Like, I'm just not. Bait you into what I will see that I will see. Emerald Fennels. Wuthering Heights.
- [30:07]
B
Wuthering Heights.
- [30:08]
A
Wuthering. Wuthering. I don't know how we're saying it.
- [30:11]
B
Have you had a Werther's before? Were there's original.
- [30:14]
A
Yeah, but that's. I don't really care for it. It's an old lady candy. And what are you really into those?
- [30:20]
B
Well, just. Just to be pointed about it, my grandfather.
- [30:24]
A
Yeah.
- [30:25]
B
Edward Fennessy.
- [30:26]
A
Oh.
- [30:29]
B
Who's a fascinating guy, lived a fascinating life. He always had Werther's on him.
- [30:35]
A
Yeah.
- [30:35]
B
And he would be.
- [30:36]
A
Yeah, this is what I'm saying. But it's like not. It's that. And then this little candy is the strawberry candies.
- [30:41]
B
I like those too. Yeah. With a little jelly center.
- [30:44]
A
Yeah. I mean, they're good.
- [30:45]
B
What's wrong with old person candy?
- [30:47]
A
Anyway, I'll see the Emerald Fennel movie and I support Charli XCX and everything she does, but I don't know if it's gonna be on this level.
- [30:58]
B
I don't think so either. The movie also ends magnificently with the Angkor Wat sequence after our two characters have been separated. And then a lot of time passes and they move to different stages of their career. There's these. Or their life, I should say. They have a series of near misses, you know, where they think they're gonna meet or they're gonna reunite in some way, and it doesn't quite happen. And the film ends with Tony Leung whispering the secret into the tree. And that's an amazing and really fascinatingly bold choice because it's just a complete contrast to everything that we've seen before. Most of in the Mood for Love is in these kind of darkened nighttime sequences. It's often very rainy. We're seeing characters behind the rain or behind gates or behind these kind of beaded curtains. There's always this sense of like through a doorway. Yes. You can't. You're at a distance. There's something between us that we can't break through.
- [31:52]
A
Going up or downstairs.
- [31:54]
B
Yes. All these, like, visual cues that show us what's going on between these two characters. And then when we see him here, when he visits this ancient monument, it's wide open, it's daytime. The angle that he shoots him from, from above is completely different from anything that we've seen previous to this movie. And he whispers the secret into the tree. Now the secret is like, I was in love with this woman. Or is it something deeper than that?
- [32:25]
A
Well, I guess we don't know. We don't know which. You know, Once again, see, Lawson translation, I'm. I'm sure that we all have our theories and it goes back to, is it about her? Is it about his, like, own failure in life? You know, is it. Has he found. Has he moved on? Is there any contentment in it? I don't know. I. I guess I think. I don't know if I think it's exactly about her. Maybe it's just a memory of. There was this nicer. There was this moment that we had and now it's gone. How much self knowledge he has versus how much knowledge we're supposed to have about what's going on?
- [33:07]
B
I'm not sure it's a good point. The movie doesn't really psychologize them in that way. We don't get that internal monologue of these characters who are communicating their longing. For the most part, his character talks a little bit about what's going on and what he wants to do is this. Has this been memed? This ending, you know, where it's like, I secretly think the Blue Jays are much better than the Dodgers, but the baseball media doesn't want you to know that.
- [33:34]
A
Okay. All right, that's. We're recording this one day after the epic 18 inning World Series game. Yeah, I don't. I haven't seen it. If it's been memed, do you feel that would be respectful or that would be you?
- [33:48]
B
Do you think that's the highest compliment you can pay a film is to keep it in the culture?
- [33:52]
A
Right. But it's sort of like, do you want this on TikTok? Like, you know, because then everyone. Well, I know it is, but. And. And in insulting ways. So.
- [34:01]
B
Okay. And then. And then, you know, Chanel no. 5 commercials and in Bulova watch commercials and, you know, it's like, what could be more degrading than that? Like me making a good meme about baseball with Tony Leung in it. That's. That fucking rocks.
- [34:17]
A
There you go. Fire it up right now.
- [34:19]
B
Let's do it.
- [34:19]
A
Okay.
- [34:20]
B
What's this movie like?
- [34:21]
A
Are you good at making memes?
- [34:22]
B
I think that I could be if I devoted myself.
- [34:27]
A
You're like Judi Jench in Pride and Prejudice.
- [34:29]
B
That's right. That's exactly how I am. The film's legacy. Is there anything else about why we chose this film that you wanted to cite?
- [34:39]
A
This was a no brainer.
- [34:40]
B
Yeah. We didn't really just debate this film.
- [34:42]
A
Really on the list, like, immediately. And I don't even think that I thought about replacing Lost in Translation with it. When we were doing it, we were sort of secure in our picks independently, but now it makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
- [34:55]
B
I'm thinking about his films in general. I mean, my favorite of his movies. This is not my favorite of his movies. My favorite of his movies is probably Chunking Express and maybe Happy Together in second place. Those are the two. And Happy Together, I think is maybe even more influential. On Barry Jenkins, I'd be curious to hear Sofia Coppola talk about Happy Together, which is another movie about displacement and longing. Queer love story about two people in South America who are not from South America. There's amazing musical cues.
- [35:24]
A
I think one of the musical cues is Perfidia in Happy Together, right? It is.
- [35:29]
B
And I think that those two movies are just like, ravishing and so strange and, like, a little harder to unpack. But this movie is also. It's like 99 out of 100 versus 100 out of 100.
- [35:40]
A
I. Chung King Express is defensible as a favorite. Well, I go within the mood for Love over Happy Together, even though I.
- [35:48]
B
You know, and many people love Days of Being Wild, which is sort of like his big announcement. Fallen Angels, if you're in gangster movies, is pretty cool. I'm less high on the other 2000s films. Like, there was no debate about what's the right movie for this century for Wong. Interesting timing, though, in very soon, I believe his television series, which is called Blossoms Shanghai, which he made, which was a massive sensation in Asia, is coming to the Criterion Channel. And I think it's like a pretty long, episodic, like, 20 plus episode series that I have heard is maybe a little bit more standard television, but just made by Wong Kar Wai with lots of plot and incidents and characters kind of, you know, making a lot of choices as opposed to what you find in most of his other films. But it's interesting timing because he.
- [36:42]
A
Do characters make choices as like, a rubric for is this a movie or not? Is a great litmus test that you.
- [36:49]
B
I mean, they do ultimately make the choice to not fuck in this movie. You know, that is a choice, in a way.
- [36:54]
A
I guess they do. But do they even make the choice? Or does the choice just, like, float by? I think this is a movie, so, you know, I don't know why I'm arguing.
- [37:02]
B
It's definitely a movie. Yeah. No, they make choices, but those choices are not. We should blow up this bank. You know, that doesn't come up in discussion between these two lovely people who you say are in their early 30s.
- [37:12]
A
I think so.
- [37:13]
B
Okay. I'm gonna say 36.
- [37:15]
A
I think that that is generous to everyone.
- [37:19]
B
Okay. My Blueberry Nights. Have you seen that?
- [37:23]
A
Yes, I watched it for the episode that we did with Justin Chang.
- [37:27]
B
Yeah. That movie's kind of lost to time.
- [37:30]
A
Yeah. Norah Jones, not in consideration for. Didn't come up for this list.
- [37:36]
B
The legacy of the movie. Now, we've obviously talked about its influence, which is clear. Tony Long did win Best Actor at Cannes when it premiered. It was submitted as Hong Kong's best international feature, then best Foreign language film Oscar contender, but was not chosen by the Academy.
- [37:54]
A
Yeah, that's. You know, once again, that's on the Academy.
- [37:57]
B
It's pretty cool.
- [37:58]
A
Not on us.
- [37:59]
B
This film is number four on the New York Times top 100.
- [38:02]
A
Okay. That's the like the special people list and not the audience.
- [38:05]
B
The special people. Were you asked to be a part of the special people list?
- [38:07]
A
I was. Not us.
- [38:08]
B
Okay, interesting. Me neither. 87 on Metacritic. I don't know what that tells us, really. Okay, when did Metacritic start?
- [38:15]
A
I don't know. I did read Roger Ebert's review last night.
- [38:18]
B
Three out of four stars.
- [38:20]
A
So there you go.
- [38:21]
B
What do you make of that?
- [38:23]
A
Well, as Bill likes to say, Raj is big on plot. Roger really likes story.
- [38:27]
B
He does like story. He does. This is an area. Roger Ebert, a huge champion of Asian cinema. But this is the kind of movie that he was always a little bit outside of.
- [38:38]
A
Right.
- [38:40]
B
And it's very interesting that our culture has come around to it so deeply. What movies is it standing in for? So I think there's two tracts here. Yeah, there is a huge history of Chinese and Hong Kong cinema starting in like roughly the mid-80s that is starting to have a real light cast upon it. In recent years, two things are happening. There are these series of, you know, mostly John Woo, but a lot of other directors who made these hugely influential Titanic action movies in the 80s. And John Woo eventually came to Hollywood and started making movies with people like Nicolas Cage. But those movies were hard to find for a while, like the Killer and Hard Boiled and all these movies. And just in the last year, the Criterion Channel has all these movies on their channel and they're all being issued in 4K and you can buy them like you couldn't. You literally couldn't buy these movies in a non Japanese edition forever. And people are starting to discover them. You know, Wong has been much more preserved, I think, because he's, you know, recognized in cinephile circles and his films, you know, play in rep houses. Like there is a. There's a culture around fandom for him. I'm very curious to see, like, how people get reactivated by some of this other stuff. But, you know, Johnny to and John Woo and Jang Yu Mo and you know, more recent filmmakers like Xia Zhankah, like a lot of these filmmakers who, like, we could have talked about for the list. You know, John Woo hasn't really made a movie I've loved in a while. But Wong, making his last masterpiece in the year 2000 is kind of fascinating for the purposes of this. I like 2046.
- [40:18]
A
It's okay.
- [40:19]
B
It's my wife's favorite. Okay, so that's. My wife is a little weird. She has an unusual taste at times, but I think she likes to sit in that movie that movie's a little harder to parse than this movie is. And then so that's like, that's one track. And then there's like Taiwanese masters too, like Hou Shaoshen and you know, Edward Yang's Yiyi is like the number one movie that people will be like, how could you not have this movie on the list? It's a movie I really like, I think is great. I know some people think it is the greatest film of all time. You know, we've never really talked about it on the show. It's not really a part of this show. I recognize its power and its influence. It's another movie that has gotten a huge boost in the last 15 or 20 years, but that's also not on our list. And then there's the romance movies that. There are quite a few that I think we could have made a case for sure in the place of this movie or in the place of some other movies. I don't know how much you agree with all of these ones that I listed here.
- [41:16]
A
I think they're good. I think most of them were non starters and some of that is for personal preference. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is, I think, one that would be on a lot of people's lists and if it were just you, it might be.
- [41:30]
B
It would have been on my list. Yeah, it would have been on my 25.
- [41:33]
A
I respect that movie, but it's just never been my bag, so. And even. And Kirsten Dunst is in it, we could have gone three for three. Wow.
- [41:42]
B
Yeah, wow. But spoiler alert, what else? Spider Man 2 is not on this list.
- [41:48]
A
Nor is. What? Bachelorette.
- [41:51]
B
No, not in contention. Good movie.
- [41:53]
A
It's good. It's pretty good. It's not in the mood for Bachelorette.
- [41:59]
B
Over Eternal Sunshine would be a choice.
- [42:01]
A
Well, it's one I would make anyway. Brokeback Mountain is sort of the obvious one, but we like the Academy.
- [42:07]
B
Another Asian filmmaker, Ang Lee, you're purposefully overlooking this film as a shout out to the Academy. What number is Crash on our list? I forget.
- [42:18]
A
I was gonna say we like the Academy, have once again disrespected Brokeback Mountain.
- [42:22]
B
Ye. I. I don't know how I feel about this. I haven't re. Watched Broke Background in a while. Yeah, I, I thought it was brilliant. I, I loved it when it came out. I was very moved by it. I haven't seen it in a long time, so I guess I never really strongly considered it.
- [42:40]
A
Yeah. Also a movie about restraint and, and.
- [42:43]
B
They do in that Movie, though.
- [42:44]
A
Well, that is true. Past lives. Yeah.
- [42:49]
B
A movie that obviously hugely influenced by this movie.
- [42:51]
A
Yes. Call me by your name. Not so much restraint in that one.
- [42:56]
B
Well, not if you're a peach.
- [43:00]
A
Portrait of a Lady on Fire. It's a movie I like very much.
- [43:06]
B
Me too. Not quite there. Real classic. Like four and a half versus five star situation for me. I know that sounds stupid, but it is how I feel.
- [43:13]
A
How about five stars versus like five plus?
- [43:16]
B
No, that doesn't exist.
- [43:17]
A
Okay. It can in my book. Moonlight and Far from Heaven and Carol. The Todd Haynes. Julianne Moore. No. Julianne Moore and then Cate Blanchett.
- [43:28]
B
Yes. I don't know. There's no Todd Haynes movie on this list. Todd Haynes. Really? One of my faves. One of my favorite directors ever. And I think you like him. You like his movies.
- [43:39]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [43:42]
B
I'm turning that over in my mind that he doesn't have a movie on this list.
- [43:44]
A
There are a lot of people who don't have movies on this list.
- [43:46]
B
I know.
- [43:46]
A
As we get closer to the movie.
- [43:47]
B
A lot of our favorites, you know, it's like. Okay, so no Barry Jenkins movie.
- [43:50]
A
Yeah.
- [43:50]
B
I'm sorry to say. No Damien Chazelle movie, you know.
- [43:53]
A
Wow, you're spoiling that now.
- [43:54]
B
No.
- [43:54]
A
Okay.
- [43:55]
B
Yeah. We're at 7. I mean, I think people are starting to do the math here.
- [43:58]
A
That's true. There are some that are. Some people are still holding onto that I think is funny.
- [44:03]
B
Like what? Like Barbie.
- [44:04]
A
Yeah. How'd you know? Lost in Translation. It's obviously standing in for.
- [44:08]
B
But it is. But she's good. Sophia's taken care of.
- [44:11]
A
Yeah, she's fine.
- [44:13]
B
Recommended if you like.
- [44:14]
A
Yeah.
- [44:15]
B
Chungking Express, of course, you saying that that is the most logical favorite. Wong, if it's not this movie. And Chunking Express, you may recall. Maybe you don't recall. I was put onto that movie by Quentino.
- [44:28]
A
Quentin Tarantino.
- [44:29]
B
Yeah. And that's a big reason why I have such a big long fandom and awareness as a 13 year old in America, which is very unusual. David Lean's Brief Encounter I think is a classic, kind of a hallmark for this movie. I would imagine it's a movie that Wong is referencing at times. A beautiful 1940s movie about discontinued love, secret love. The Bridges of Madison County. Yeah. Which is a darn good romance.
- [44:56]
A
It is not one we talk about very much.
- [44:58]
B
We don't. That would be kind of an interesting 90s romances, would be an interesting episode for us because you have a lot of knowledge of those films.
- [45:07]
A
I do. I grew up on that. Them.
- [45:08]
B
I'm a little allergic to the romance movie. It has to be really good for me to be into it.
- [45:12]
A
Yeah.
- [45:12]
B
So I would want to talk about that.
- [45:14]
A
I mean, same. And I think we're getting a lot of not very good ones right now, but yeah, I added English patient, which. Another 90s romance. Absolutely. Yeah. And. And a little bit also, like a thwarted romance set in larger historical context and conflict.
- [45:33]
B
A time of great change.
- [45:34]
A
Yes. That one is more literal about it, but speaks to the same thing.
- [45:42]
B
Okay, six more left.
- [45:43]
A
Yeah.
- [45:44]
B
You feel good?
- [45:46]
A
I do. Okay. I like. I like all of the movies that are left. Well, we have. Well, there's one we have to decide.
- [45:52]
B
I think there's some potential deal making to be done right now. I've been giving it some thought about. I will share it privately next week with you.
- [45:59]
A
Oh, you're not sharing it this week?
- [46:01]
B
Nope. Why? I want you to think about what it might be and then come with a counter offer. And you're gonna say. I thought you were gonna say. And it'll be a great moment. We'll record it and then we won't Release it until 2046. Thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Later this week, we're talking about Begonia.
- [46:19]
A
That's right.
- [46:20]
B
New film from Yorgos Lanthimos. And we're gonna do the best picture power rankings for November. And I don't fucking know what's going on.
- [46:29]
A
Nor do I.
- [46:30]
B
5 through 10. I have no idea. It could go in many directions right now. Agree. It seems very unsettled in a way that hopefully will be interesting to discuss and for people to listen to at home.
- [46:41]
A
Well, we'll be chaotic about it, regardless.
- [46:43]
B
We always are. Thanks, Amanda. Okay, we'll see you.