The 25 for ’25 Selection Show Special

Summary

The Big Picture – "The 25 for ’25 Selection Show Special" (January 2, 2026)

Host: Sean Fennessy
Co-host: Amanda Dobbins
Producer: Bobby Wagner

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Episode Overview

In this special, meta-episode of The Big Picture, Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins open up their process of finalizing "25 for 25"—their definitive list of the 25 most essential movies from the last 25 years (2000–2025). The episode is a candid, at times anxious, but always lively conversation that exposes the internal negotiations, values, anxieties, “grievances,” and deep understanding of list-making between the two hosts.

They break down their criteria, the evolution from long lists to painful cuts, and the practical and emotional challenges in capturing such a broad cultural project. The episode is a treasure for movie fans and list-heads, balancing both passionate debate and the self-aware performance of two friends and critics at work.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Psychology and Stakes of List-Making

• Finality anxiety: Sean expresses deep nerves about the list, feeling it’s a “journey into my mind” and fearing not living up to his own standards (01:04).

  "I don't want to fail in my own...by my own standard." – Sean [01:10]

• Amanda calls the process “a healing process, an airing of grievances as well as planning” (01:49), poking fun at Sean’s tension.
• The hosts discuss how lists are forever fixed in public, different from the pliability of their usual year-end lists:

  "This project is being recorded and we are dedicating 25 individual episodes and discussions to where we land on things...there’s this kind of final announcement that this is the truth of the matter." – Sean [03:04]

2. Ground Rules and Methodology

• Movies must be from Jan 1, 2000 to present (US release), only one film per director (to prevent “usual faves” from dominating), and all genres, countries, and styles are eligible (08:03).
• Each host started by drafting “long lists” (Amanda: 35 films, Sean approached free-association without consulting other lists).
• Both reflect on when and how they made their lists—Amanda starts hers after “two drinks in” on a date night at a steakhouse, Sean late at night “after bedtime” (08:45).
• Noted dilemma: balancing their personal aesthetic with broader cultural and critical expectations.

3. The Negotiations: Director-by-Director Picks & Hard Cuts

The episode is a relentless back-and-forth, often moving from consensus to deep negotiation. Some key examples:

Tarantino

• Inglourious Basterds is the consensus pick, though Sean anguishes over switching it for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood ([24:09], 107:51).

  “There are no bad Tarantino movies in the 21st century. ... In my mind, these people [Quentin, Fincher, PTA, Spike] are engaged in a death struggle for primacy in my heart.” – Sean [109:42]

Christopher Nolan

• Sean and Amanda agree that The Dark Knight is likely Nolan’s representative entry, beating Interstellar, Oppenheimer, Dunkirk.

  “For us, that’s not the movie...The Dark Knight...is also the populist choice that is representative of an entire wave of movies from this century.” – Sean [17:31]

• Near the end, they cut The Dark Knight for Malick’s The Tree of Life (113:42).

Greta Gerwig & Sofia Coppola

• Lady Bird (Gerwig) and Marie Antoinette (Coppola) are chosen as signature “girl” auteur picks.

  “Marie Antoinette is my passion.” – Amanda [25:44]

Fincher

• Debate between The Social Network and Zodiac.

  “The Social Network may be the best movie of the 2010s. Zodiac might be the best David Fincher movie, but it isn’t even the best movie of 2007.” – Sean [28:54]

• Amanda: “It is like our generation’s Citizen Kane.”

Scorsese

• The Wolf of Wall Street is picked over The Departed, Silence, or The Irishman (31:16), favored for its energy and DiCaprio’s performance.

International Cinema

• Parasite (Bong Joon Ho), In the Mood for Love (Wong Kar-Wai), Spirited Away (Miyazaki), The Handmaiden (Park Chan-wook) chosen; tension over whether these are the "cool" or "consensus" picks.
• Persistent regret at limited representation of European, South American, and African directors (86:25).

4. Genre Representation & Gaps

• Comedy: Anchorman over Superbad” for its populist/female character points (48:57)
• Action: Mission Impossible: Fallout, Mad Max: Fury Road; The Raid and John Wick considered but not included.
• Animation: Spirited Away is the sole animated/Miyazaki pick.
• Documentary: Discussion of The Act of Killing, OJ: Made in America, Stories We Tell; ultimately, no documentaries make the final list.

5. The Hardest Cuts and "Are We Too Predictable?"

Sean and Amanda recite a running list of major filmmakers, genres, and titles excluded from their 25—Spielberg, Soderbergh, Villeneuve, Baumbach, Pixar, Lord of the Rings, etc. ([80:51]–90:16), probing at their own biases and the impossibility of the project.

“There is only one horror movie...only one comic book movie...no Denzel, Emma Stone, Jennifer Lawrence, Bradley Cooper, Cate Blanchett…” – Sean [89:08]

• Self-aware meta-discussion: Are they making a “magazine list," "our list," or a “canon” list?

6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My confidence is a beacon, I must say.” – Amanda, on her taste (07:07)
• “Maybe I regret the conceit. I’m just being honest.” – Sean on the emotional weight of the project (03:28)
• “You can make your own list. You guys can go do it. I hope you will.” – Amanda, gently derisive about audience complaints (17:31)
• “We are, as you said, we are dedicating 25 individual episodes to these movies.” – Amanda (04:04), on the scale of the project
• “Sean and I are both recovering magazine journalists.” – Amanda, explaining their list compulsion (15:59)

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Timeline of Major Segments

• 00:15 — 05:00: The anxiety of definitive lists; difference between public and personal canons.
• 05:00 — 12:00: Process: How they made initial long lists, settings and emotional states; the “one film per filmmaker” rule.
• 12:00 — 35:00: Running through candidates for each director or category, their thinking, personal stories, and why certain films stick for them.
• 35:00 — 50:00: Detailed arguments over "cool" vs. "canonical" picks; The Handmaiden vs Oldboy, Anchorman vs Superbad, etc.
• 50:00 — 65:00: Comedy and action genres; tough calls on Whiplash, Mad Max, Nolans; Re-ordering and painful omissions.
• 65:00 — 80:00: The long “hard cuts” montages—cataloging missing auteurs and gnawing regrets.
• 80:00 — 100:00: Reading through the current list, discussing sequence and rationale. “This is the real work.”
• 100:00 — 120:00: Final deliberations; swapping The Dark Knight for The Tree of Life, last-minute shuffles, meta-commentary on taste, and the cathartic (if inconclusive) feeling at the end.

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Final "25 for 25" List (as of end of episode)

(Some final order and entries subject to last-minute reconsideration in December, but as it stood in this session:)

1. The Social Network (Fincher)
2. 25th Hour (Spike Lee)
3. There Will Be Blood (PTA)
4. Inglourious Basterds (Tarantino) (with asterisk re: Once Upon a Time in Hollywood)
5. Lady Bird (Gerwig)
6. Mulholland Drive (Lynch)
7. In the Mood for Love (Wong Kar-Wai)
8. Parasite (Bong Joon Ho)
9. Mad Max: Fury Road (George Miller)
10. Marie Antoinette (Sofia Coppola)
11. Wolf of Wall Street (Scorsese)
12. The Royal Tenenbaums (Wes Anderson)
13. Get Out (Jordan Peele)
14. Moneyball (Bennett Miller)
15. Inside Llewyn Davis (Coens)
16. The Tree of Life (Malick)
17. Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy (Adam McKay)
18. Before Sunset (Linklater)
19. Spirited Away (Miyazaki)
20. Melancholia (Von Trier)
21. Mission: Impossible — Fallout (Christopher McQuarrie)
22. Something's Gotta Give (Nancy Meyers)
23. Y Tu Mamá También (Cuarón)
24. The Handmaiden (Park Chan-wook)
25. Michael Clayton (Tony Gilroy)

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Additional Notes

• “Everything is eligible”: Anxiety remains about whether a late-breaking 2025 title could disrupt the list (05:16).
• The hosts acknowledge the list is skewed toward Hollywood, with better Asian than European representation, and lament missing voices from South America, Africa, and many prolific auteurs (86:25).
• Meta-moment: Their wrestling over criteria (“are we being too cute or not cute enough?” 68:31), and their mutual admissions about the performative aspect of the process versus their true, inner critical selves.
• “Michael Clayton” opening the list: A canny craft choice as much as a taste one (91:06).
• List may still change ahead of the series—both admit: “I’m going to wake up one morning, I’m going to shoot out of bed stock still...” (118:57)

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Takeaways for the Listener

• This is not just a list, but a record of taste, anxiety, argument, and affection—a time capsule of how these hosts (and their corner of movie culture) view cinema as the 21st century nears its midpoint.
• The discussion is full of practical wisdom for anyone attempting to canonize culture—about how public taste shifts, about the impossibility of consensus, and about the pleasures (and pains) of ranking things you love.
• If you haven’t heard the episode, you’ll find their choices both idiosyncratic and thoughtfully argued—a beautiful blend of personal favorites and critical touchstones, with enough friction and contradiction to keep it honest.

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Notable Episode Quotes

• “My confidence is a beacon, I must say.” – Amanda [07:07]
• “This project is being recorded and we are dedicating 25 individual episodes...that actually means at the exclusion, aside from this conversation, of a lot of other things.” – Sean [03:04]
• “You can make your own list. You guys can go do it. I hope you will.” – Amanda [17:31]
• “Maybe I regret the conceit. I’m just being honest.” – Sean [03:28]
• "It's not a competition. This is a collaboration." – Amanda [58:47]

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For Future Reference:

• See episode timestamps for deep-dives into Cuarón vs. Gerwig, Soderbergh omissions, the final order debate, and meta-conversations about the meaning of cultural canons.
• Skip the ads, but don’t miss the friendship, the bickering, and the whirring anxiety behind settling on movies to live on forever—or at least for now.

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[End of summary]

Transcript

[A]

I'm Sean Fennessy.

[B]

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

[A]

And this is sort of the big picture, a conversation show about 25 for 25. This is a very special edition of this show. It's really more of a meeting that we're turning into a podcast.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As listeners of this show just turned the camera.

[B]

No, it's an argument that we're turning into a podcast.

[A]

A. A thorough discussion of a project that is very important to this show, that by the time you end up hearing this or seeing this, we will have already presented to the public our definitive 25 movies for the past 25 years. List 25 for 25, which is a big undertaking, a big challenge for us. Um, I think it's gonna. It's really. I feel. This feels like a journey into my mind, like, what we're doing here. Like, I. I'm actually a little tense.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Because of what this is.

[B]

What is the nature of that? Like, what. What is the anxiety?

[A]

I don't want to fail in my own. By my own standard.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so I. This is a really, like, a confrontation of not just what the show is, what we think about things collectively, how I individually process those things, but also there's like, an end result that you'll be able to look at and you'll be able to say, like, this is what those guys are now. Whatever we do is going to get picked apart, criticized. I'm not actually worried about that. I think I'm only thinking about my own standard. So we've done so much work already, and I'm so unsatisfied with where we stand in this project.

[B]

It's not final.

[A]

It is.

[B]

This is. This is a healing process, an airing of grievances as well as planning, which, you know, one of those things you love. So if you just activate that plan John mode, you know, just toggle that shit on.

[A]

Well, I'm usually very quiet when that happens, and this is not a quiet medium.

[B]

I was going to ask how much of it is actually anxiety about either dealing with me or. Which I don't really think it is really not that. I know that you trust me.

[A]

I do.

[B]

And I. And I mostly believe that you don't care about what other people will think. So my question for you is, do you feel this level of dissatisfaction when making your own personal list every year? Because you do that. Like, as you and I were discussing. We make a lot of lists. We make a lot of lists on this show. We've made a lot of lists in our careers until now you just make lists. Like, that is just what you do on a Friday night.

[A]

One of my pastimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. There's no doubt about it. It's always been.

[B]

You get like 15 minutes on a Saturday afternoon and you're making a list and then you're sharing the list. And I am once again sitting there being like, I am. I am doing the other parts of my life and Sean is just making lists. So what is it about this that feels different?

[A]

Well, I reserve the right to change any of my other lists, you know, like my end of the year list. Like, I won't change it actually where it stands once it's finalized. But in my head I can go back and say, like, actually in 2014, I thought this was the best movie. Or actually my favorite Bob Dylan song is this thing. This project is being recorded and we are dedicating 25 individual episodes and discussions to where we land on things. So that actually means at the exclusion, aside from this conversation, of a lot of other things. And so that there being this kind of final announcement that this is the truth of the matter. I don't know. It's like, I think I regret the conceit. I'm just being honest.

[B]

So a few things there. Let's start with. So we're declaring right now. It's. It's March 12, 2025. Here we are. When we walk out of this room with the list. That's the list.

[A]

I. Well, I don't know. Yeah, see, let's make. Let's make an agreement.

[B]

I think.

[A]

You think we can change it.

[B]

Do whatever we want. First of all, we are, as you said, we are dedicating 25 individual episodes to these movies. And so they're going to be shorter and. And hopefully they will give us a chance to discuss other movies that don't make the list. So first of all, it's not the last time that we are going to talk about, you know, Brokeback Mountain or something, which I just don't like. A Brokeback Mountain is not going to make it on the list, I don't think.

[A]

Well, we got to talk about it.

[B]

We got to talk about it. But like, I'm. I feel pretty confident that one that's just. That's a loss, which is a real.

[A]

You wanted Crash and you said if we have to choose one movie from.

[B]

That year, sensibility, but that's 19.

[A]

That's a whole other issue.

[B]

Yeah. So we will get to talk about the movies that don't make it on the list.

[A]

I think a Lot of the conversation will be also in this conversation of, like, what's getting cut? That is really hard to cut.

[B]

Sure. But we're not filming. We're not doing the episodes all today. We're doing them over the course of the year. So what if we change our minds? What if. What if. What if something debuts at the Cannes Film Festival that absolutely blows our hair back?

[A]

It's crossed my mind. Yeah, this. This very thing is crossed.

[B]

We don't have a 2025 movie on air because it's only March.

[A]

I agree with you that through the process of this list, everything is eligible. And it would be really exciting if we could ram something in at number eight that we just saw, and that would be representative of this time.

[B]

Why can't we resend number 24? No, we can't do that.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

That is chaotic. I can't that. Actually. I just had, like, a little panic attack, and I honestly.

[B]

Oh, and I get the nostril flare. It's so good.

[A]

I think it's so funny. Like, in the process of making this show, because of the way that we talk to each other, because of what our friendship is and whatever this is, I always seem like I'm that kind of person. And I find that in the rest of my life, I don't have this energy. But whenever it comes to, like, this will be the representation of how you feel and it is captured, it just feels, I don't know, a little bit more anxiety inducing for me. And I think that this is, like, maybe the biggest test I've given, at least myself personally, yet. I'm not really worried about coming to a negotiation with you. We're gonna fight about stuff. Yeah. But no, I mean, we're gonna have to give each other some grace on some of these picks.

[B]

But there's a unified effort despite, like, the performance of disgust on a regular basis. We're. We're on the same page. I'm not worried about it at all. I don't feel any anxiety.

[A]

Okay. I'm not surprised.

[B]

That's not true. Like, I would say, outside of these fake walls and outside of the project of list making, I am the more.

[A]

Anxious person I think, in real life are. We're kind of flipped.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Personality wise. Totally. Yes.

[B]

But here I'm just sort of like. I feel like I know what I like. I know what you like. I know what we're doing. I know what my taste is. I know what this should be. You've got a whole list here of your confidence.

[A]

Is a Beacon, I must say.

[B]

Thank you so much. You've got a whole list here of. And you've titled it. These would make the list more well rounded and less predictable. Some. Absolutely. Some total masterpieces here. Some great movies. I think every one of these would make the list more predictable because it would be other people's picks, not ours.

[A]

Yeah. So let's. Let's talk about what we've done thus far. I think that will be helpful because by the time people hear this, they will already know what all 25 movies are. They'll know the order in which they come, but they'll be able to get a sense of how we went about doing this, which is. Has been interesting. So I asked you some months ago to start, so you put together your first shot at a long list. And the only. The only thing we said was it had to be from January 1, 2000. I think US release is roughly what we're working from all the way through present day. All films are eligible, but only one film per filmmaker to avoid our usual faves. Tarantino, Fincher, Soderbergh, Sofia Coppola, like, all the people who are like the big heroes of the show. Yeah. Greta, Gerwig, Bombach, all the people we really love. And so inevitably, what you started putting together was like a couple of dead solid, perfect. We know we're doing this. And then the further down the list you go, you get like, I'm not sure if I really want this. And then the further down the list you go, you find all the stuff that you forgot about, but that has to go on the list.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I did a similar thing underneath that.

[B]

Can I ask you what were the circumstances in which you made your kind of free association first draft list?

[A]

That's a really good question. Well, why don't you tell me what yours were?

[B]

As I try to remember, mine was on date night with my husband at Mr. Lyons in Paul Springs.

[A]

Oh, one of my favorite steakhouses in the world.

[B]

So I was definitely two drinks in. And I guess there are some Zach suggestions, but Zach provided unessential support that he has often provided to the big picture, which is saying things and then me saying, no, that's wrong. But also, like, being the backboard.

[A]

You know, there's many ways in which Zach and I can relate. That is one of them.

[B]

It helps me hone my craft. But so the process that you described of, okay, well, here are the obvious ones. And then, like, here's my second glass of wine, and I'm gonna, like, get a little frisky and then, oh, wow, I forgot this and this and this. And this was a bit the process. And I think I sent you 35 movies.

[A]

Okay. I didn't clock that. And then I just.

[B]

I only know that. Cause I went back and I put 35 movies.

[A]

I didn't have a date night that actually would have been nice. And maybe I should run this by Eileen before we actually start making the episodes. Because we haven't made any of the episodes. But I think I tried to do it without looking at anything. I think I tried to just almost like, you know, air gap my laptop and just do it off the top of my head. And I was able to use the list that you had and say, okay from there. And so, you know, we made this long list. I won't really spoil like what was on your initial round per se. But like, for example, like, I think the additions that I made. The first one I thought of, which is not going to make the list, almost certainly was Uncle Boon, Me, who can recall his past lives, which is a pitch Pong Vera Slythicals movie that was a huge phenomenon in the art house world. And whenever I think of 21st century movies, for whatever reason, that's a movie that sticks out. I haven't seen it in like 15 years. And we don't talk about it on the show. It's not really like a part of the show. It's just like a kind of a new cinema classic. And so I think what I was realizing was that I was processing a lot of other people's lists.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the point of this exercise is to represent our list.

[B]

Our list. Well, in your defense, one of the things that I sent to you, I remember I sent you this list at like 11 on a Saturday night. Very normal. And then I said, this is obviously missing. This is weak on international, Very weak on animation, obviously. Um, and also you can pick which Spielberg should go on the list. I. Like, I know what. Like, I know what I think you'll pick, but like, I didn't pick one. So those were the three things, right?

[A]

So maybe because of that note that you sent, I thought about Almodovar, I thought about Michael Hanukkah, I thought about Terrence Malick. I thought about Miyazaki, I thought about Edward Yang. Like, I thought about directors who I was like, I know a man is not thinking about these people, but when you're talking about the century in movies, these are important people in the discussion. Whether or not they're our favorites, come to find out. But so that was like my first stab at it. And I think I was just like at my laptop one evening, you know, after bedtime. And then I. We had this like mega list. And you added to the list after that as well. Or you had a couple of notes on top of the notes that I shared. I'm wondering if we should even share this with the public. It might actually be funny to.

[B]

To share that document. Oh, I don't have it open right now. Will you send me the. Yeah, please send me the link.

[A]

Meetings.

[B]

Meetings.

[A]

Yeah, this is really it.

[B]

This is how we do meetings.

[A]

This is how we do meetings. And it is a lot of people just looking at shared documents, which can be kind of dull. I just texted you.

[B]

Okay, that's good because I need. There was also a text message portion of this.

[A]

We did text back and forth a little bit.

[B]

And that. That was like our really classic Saturday afternoon. I guess you had negotiated. It was during Sundance. I remember this because you had negotiated Sundance watching Time and you were suddenly just like hitting me with long lists over texts.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I was like cooking and my in laws were in town and like negotiating with you about Almost Famous. And I thought like, I listen, in that moment, I had it all. You know, I really thought that I hung in. But I. The text message is an important document for that.

[A]

I don't know where maybe you can find that exchange that we were having back then. I think the other thing that I did after you sent along your list was I started adding underneath it the option other movie from the director. So like, let's just talk about, let's just go through it. Let's just. I'll. We'll talk about what you shared and then my, my rejoinder to that, my addition to that first name on the list is There Will Be Blood.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which makes all the sense in the world. Except for when I started doing our cut down list, which I'll get to very shortly. I completely forgot about There Will Be Blood.

[B]

That was part of that Saturday afternoon which was you sent me the list and then you. You followed up with. Just realized There Will Be Blood is not on this.

[A]

So this process is pretty silly. And you know, we are, we have our faults immediately under There Will Be Blood I put the master. I guess you could make the case for a few other PTA movies. I think Phantom Thread, I think Inherent Vice, all these movies, Punch Drunk Love, all these movies have big fandoms. For me personally, There Will Be Blood is super. Just a big movie in my life. So I think that that was. Right. You identified that. Now the next movie on the list is no country for Old Men came out the same year as There Will Be Blood. Did your mind go straight to that when you and Zach were talking?

[B]

I. Yeah, but just because the. Of 2007 and because look at the. The third movie on the list is Michael Clayton. So I just kind of.

[A]

Did you started there.

[B]

Yeah. I think we. Because it's such a heavyweight year and also it is such like a. A ringer and you, me and Chris year in terms of that was when like all the big guns were really.

[A]

We're in our 20s, we're going to the movies all the time. And it feels like kind of the last gasp of like all the versions of Hollywood that we liked. I think no country for Old Men would not be my pick. And I don't know if it's going to end up being our pick. We're going to talk about it momentarily. But I immediately wrote down A Serious man and Inside Llewyn Davis, which are two movies that I like more than no country for Old Men. No country for Old Men for me is a novel that I loved. Chris put me onto the novel. I think that's when I started reading McCarthy books. And I think. Cause I picked a side with PTA a little bit. It influences this. And it's also just not a very Cohen's Y movie.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the Cohen's tone is something I've always loved and still love. So because of that, it feels not representative.

[B]

It's not Cohen's going mainstream, but it is like more people got on the bandwagon for that one. And you have, you know, been Die Hard since I was like, you weren't.

[A]

With me on the man who Wasn't There. You know, like, if you're not there, then why aren't you here now?

[B]

Which I don't feel about no country for Old Men, but I really understand that feeling in a profound way.

[A]

You have your similar. Your people as well. Who. People jump on the bandwagon. Michael Clayton. No brainer. We'll get there. The Dark Knight. I like that you wrote this down. I was a little surprised. I think the only person who likes is a little iffyer on Oppenheimer and not on Oppenheimer on Interstellar and Inception than I am is you. So we're a little. Nolan is a tricky one for us.

[B]

The Dark Knight, though. And here's where we go. Magazine brainless brain. I don't know you guys. You guys hit play on this podcast.

[A]

So no this is important.

[B]

Buckle up.

[A]

Maybe give some context for what we did in our careers before we did this.

[B]

That's a great point. If you're just joining the big picture for some reason, listening to this two hour weird psychological exercise that also could have been an email and was before we literally content. Sean and I are both recovering magazine journalists. Sean worked at, I don't know, Vibe, gq. What else am I forgetting? Obviously, Grantlin.

[A]

Yeah. A number of other places. Yeah. Many places that publish many lists over the years.

[B]

I was in New York magazine for a very long time. So shout out, Vulture. I love you forever. So we are trained in making these packages with lists and supporting editorial pieces and investigations and charts and big essays and trying to provoke people into paying attention to what we think.

[A]

That is what it was.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think that there is, like a sincere part of list making and packaging and then there is a cynical part of it. And so I've always tried to make this show personally, that same combination that I pursued in my work as a magazine editor. And I think you're right that the Dark Knight is simultaneous. Both. For me, it is actually the Nolan movie that gets me the most excited. And it is also the populist choice that is representative of an entire wave of movies from this century. So even though I wrote Oppenheimer Prestige and Interstellar underneath it, and I think many people who are younger than us would choose Interstellar, that's cool. But for us, that's not the movie that's.

[B]

And you guys. And I know I normally say this in a disrespectful way, but, you know, this is like movie mom supporting you in your dreams. Make your own list. You know, you guys can go do it. I hope you will.

[A]

Maybe we can encourage that as part of this process.

[B]

As long as you do it with, you know, with kindness. Go for it. The thing about Dark Knight, in addition to it ticking, both the Nolan box and the superhero box, I think it's the best action movie of all of the movies that you just named. And it is serving action. It is taking the place. We have a couple action movies on this list, but it has all three of those. Also one of the great performances of the 21st century in Heath Ledger's Joker.

[A]

100%.

[B]

You've got four.

[A]

There's a number of reasons why it works so well. We'll talk about it when we do the episode. I think we're gonna end up with the Dark Knight as our Nolan movie. I would be surprised if we don't. I Have a lot of affection for it. I. I was on the rewatchables early on in the run about that movie and was doing a lot of nitpicking in that episode. And I've heard over the years like, you fuck, you guys fucked this one up. Because maybe the show had not totally evolved into, like, we love everything about this except for whatever bad politics are left over from this movie. But it's always been a movie that has, like, kind of made my hair stand up. So I would push for it regardless. So I was happy to see that you put it there. Then Lady Bird and Little Women, obviously.

[B]

Yeah. So Lady Bird is what I put on.

[A]

Yes, Ladybird is at the top. I would go Lady Bird too. I think I put Little Women on just to have the discussion. We can have the discussion very briefly now if you'd like.

[B]

Little Women is one of the most under celebrated movies of the last 10 years, including by me.

[A]

And, you know, once again, you're setting it down.

[B]

I said, I know, I feel bad. And I why am I doing that? I guess because Lady Bird is both. You know, it is the debut feature. It is original, written and directed by Greta Gerwig. Little Women is an adaptation. I think it's like a genius adaptation. And it is in conversation with like both that novel, all of the movies that have been made before it. Just the whole idea of, you know, women in society. So there's, there's, it's, it's doing a lot and doing it really artfully. But I think that I guess I'm just prizing the original, which is maybe lame, but that's where I am.

[A]

I would go lady bird 100 times out of 100. I think that every generation gets a great coming of age movie. I think this is that generation's great coming of age movie. I wouldn't argue for Little Women or Barbie. And I don't think I'll be arguing for the Chronicles of Narrative.

[B]

I didn't even try for Barbie. But let's stop doing that right now. Just say, let's just stop doing that thing where you've just written Greta Gerwig's entire career off.

[A]

I haven't. I'm not writing her.

[B]

I know, but like the way you were just sort of like, I don't.

[A]

Think it comes for us all. As you said, school is expensive. I did.

[B]

I know. I brought this up recently, which was in March. For those of you listening, and I listen Barbie into Chronicles of Narnia. And I loved Barbie. I thought, I thought that I Mean, she's a genius. I want to be her when I grow up and I never will be, but.

[A]

I would like more ladybirds. Yeah, it's not what you would have done. Yes, it's not what you would have done.

[B]

The market doesn't want more ladybirds, though, so. And again, school is expensive.

[A]

Look, Nolan made three Batman movies and then went on and did you know Dunkirk Tenet, Oppenheimer, the Odyssey. So you gotta.

[B]

Yeah. Should Dunkirk have been on that list? I mean, we're not gonna pick Dunkirk over the Dark Knight.

[A]

It's a movie that I have a great admiration for, but I don't have a deep emotional relationship to. I think if CR Were here, it probably would have been his Nolan pick.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But CR is probably going to end up doing his own version of this on his show for tv, so, you know, he can.

[B]

Oh, he is. Oh, that's good.

[A]

I would assume. I think we're all across the ringer doing a lot of this.

[B]

I think we should let Chris record an episode to also come out around now, which is just like his response.

[A]

I do not.

[B]

I think that would be funny.

[A]

I mean, he's welcome to record it where it will be released. I don't know. Okay.

[B]

Chris is. Chris Ryan is the only person in the universe who I would take feedback from.

[A]

But the thing is, is that it's not in his nature to be like, here's what you got wrong. That's why he's such a good friend. I know.

[B]

Well, that's. But.

[A]

And obviously a critical component of this show.

[B]

So one thing I like think we're missing, content wise, is just like Chris Ryan. Just like Chris Ryan's take on stuff that is like not Chris Ryan core. You know, he sees the world in a unique way. So whether it's Chris Ryan cooking something or Chris Ryan going through this list and being like, here is my opinion.

[A]

He hasn't seen Little Women because it's directed by a woman, so we can't. He's actually just not well suited to a lot of these questions. Moonlight was the next movie you had on the list, interestingly, is not on the cut down list right now. Now I know why you went to it. Best picture winner, huge transitional movie about the state of Hollywood. Barry Jenkins, A24, a movie we both love.

[B]

Yeah. Beautiful movie.

[A]

But when confronted with the actual 25, I couldn't find a place for it. So we. Again, we can talk through it.

[B]

We did it. I guess it was the best picture movie draft.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Where this came up again, where it's like, I do think because we talk about moonlight so much as, like, a historical significance that we tend to underappreciate it as a. As a film.

[A]

Very possible. I think it might just be a kind of a negative recency bias because Barry is coming off of Mufasa instead of a triumph. And so it doesn't feel necessarily like the right time to celebrate it or something like that. Nevertheless, Moonlight, I think that's a reasonable add to the long list. And then Inglourious Basterds, which is certainly the Quentin movie that you and I agree on the most. I think he's got a couple of like.

[B]

Do we disagree on any Quentin movie?

[A]

No, but I would imagine that, like, I probably have more affection for Kill Bill Volume one than you do.

[B]

I really like Kill Bill.

[A]

I'm not. I'm not taking anything away from you by saying that. I think. I think I'm just. I think Inglourious Basterds is an intersection of a lot of things that we both like. Whereas, like, Kill Bill, you know, you're not the world's biggest Hong Kong and Japanese samurai and kung fu fan.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

You know, so it doesn't mean that it's not very accessible. In Kill Bill, I want super accessible. But the thing is, I don't. Are we sure it's not Once Upon a Time in Hollywood?

[B]

We can talk about it.

[A]

Okay, we can talk about it. That was the first thing that came to mind, and I put it right underneath it. Let's keep going. Get Out.

[B]

Don't even try. I mean, you can try. You can say it. You've written it.

[A]

I don't think that it should be. Nope. I think get out is the most important film. I think there is a decent chance because Jordan Peele reveres John Carpenter so much that Jordan ends up having a kind of Carpenter esque career where get out is Halloween and. Nope. Is the thing. And a lot of time is going to go by and people are going to be like, ah, nope. We didn't really recognize or appreciate what that movie was in its time. I could be wrong about that. And what I'm trying to avoid is like, that level of thinking that I sometimes default to. To get in the. In the miasma of this stuff. Okay, so Get Out, I think, is the right choice.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Good. Lost in Translation is what you shared, which I thought was fascinating because I did what I think you wanted to do.

[B]

Yeah, you did.

[A]

Which I think is right.

[B]

Well, it is right, because I think. But especially on the first draft I was trying to write down what like quote, unquote, should be on our lists.

[A]

And you wrote down Lost in Translation.

[B]

And I wrote down Lost in Translation, which obviously got her nominated for all the Oscars. She won an Oscar for a big breakthrough. Even though Virgin Suicides is also eligible and is also excellent.

[A]

Did we figure that out?

[B]

It is. It's a 2000.

[A]

It debuted in 2000. Okay. It was 99. Like a can or something.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

When this airs, we will already have done the 2000 movie draft with the.

[A]

The crew, the big family.

[B]

And if Rob Mahoney takes word in Suicides for me, I just mark that down.

[A]

Bob, you just wanna.

[B]

Honestly, like, then Rob had a good podcasting run and it's over now. Cause I ended it. But no, I. Marie Antoinette is. Is my. Is my passion.

[A]

That's to me, that's the good magazine editor pick as well. That's what I like about it. Lost in Translation is a great movie. I love that movie. I probably. I almost certainly love it more than Marie Antoinette.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I see you and I acknowledge you and I recognize and you also.

[B]

You like, you get why I'm into Marie Antoinette. Right. Like, it is what she's doing at a maximalist, like, very cool.

[A]

Absolutely. It is. And it is like kind of as close as she ever got to a blank check movie. And going for a few things that you wouldn't be able to normally get away with, which I really admire. As you know, a few quick ones. Moneyball, which is a patron saint of this podcast. This list, no matter what happens, will have Moneyball on it. We are of course the ringer. Sports ideas about sports. Brad Pitt. These are a lot of things, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Aaron Sorkin cucking Brad Pitt. You know, like, these are things that we're interested in. Aaron Sorkin shaping up before he fel. Yes. So that's a no brainer to me, Francis. Ha.

[B]

That's a no brainer for you and me. But except for it's really tough though.

[A]

Because we already have Lady Bird and. And this is. It's not Solo Bombach, it is Greta and Noah Baumbach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, Francis. Ha. I agree again, this is very similar to Inglourious Basterds or sort of like they made a movie and they put like our DNA in it.

[B]

Yeah. And our.

[A]

And our hearts 100%. So I don't want to over like outthink myself on this, but you know, the Squid and the Whale is like a very important movie to me.

[B]

If we did. If we did a different Bombach, it would need to be a marriage story.

[A]

I was going to. Well, that would have been my next suggestion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think he just writes very well about a lot of feelings that we have as like over educated, white 40.

[B]

Somethings are Bomback disciples, you know, like we are, we were of an impressionable age when we saw kicking and screaming and just it, like it goes from.

[A]

There, you know, I am, I am very loyal to him. And so it's not to, it's not like doing Francis ha is disloyal to him, but it's almost like you get 1.5 Gerwig and half of a bomb back on your list then. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

I do. But there's something that, like that Francis Hawk unlocks in him that I think you then also can see in, in marriage story that is like very magical and emotional. So I, I, I don't, I don't think 1.5 Gerwig, 0.5 Bombach is totally fair.

[A]

Okay, so we'll do Greenberg then. Okay, good, it's settled. Okay, Francis, I'll roll with it. The Social Network, you know the scene.

[B]

In Greenberg when they're driving to the abortion or they're driving home, I can't. And she's like, can we go to In n out? And he's like, of course. It's your day.

[A]

That is good. That's pretty similar to your life.

[B]

It really is.

[A]

That is kind of how it is for you. We were just talking about marital negotiations and travel just yesterday. You know, it's all a negotiation. Okay, let's talk about David Fincher. Here's a conundrum. The Social Network may be the best movie of the 2010s. Zodiac might be the best David Fincher movie, but it isn't even the best movie of 2007. This is the pickle of trying to do this. I have said many times Zodiac's my favorite Fincher, but the Social Network is very representative of a lot about the show, of the world that we live in right now, of a sort of writing and directing style that we really like. It's a movie that in theory will be right near the absolute tippy top of the list. And many listeners will know and we don't care. I just want to say again, Zodiac, is this like the hardest cut on the whole list? Because of the rule that I created and imposing on myself for no good reason other than to avoid putting two Fincher movies or five Fincher movies on the list? You Say what?

[B]

Did you get that out of your system?

[A]

I did. I got it out. You got it out? Can you tell I've been grinding on it?

[B]

I was just like. We needed to put you back in the void for that. I'm glad we gave you your piece. The answer is the Social Network.

[A]

Okay. But you won't even acknowledge.

[B]

No, I love Zodiac. But listen, when we did the two part David Fincher rankings, I was outvoted because it was you and Chris over me. And somehow we put Zodiac at number one.

[A]

Sweet revenge.

[B]

Number two. Listen, it's like essential to our project is we just really, really, really love that movie. And it is like our generation Citizen Kane. And I do think it's one of those things where we think it's so obvious that we're then trying to get frisky and out, overthink it. And you're like, okay, but really, actually, it's Zodiac. And sure, you love Zodiac, but I think the answer is the Social Network.

[A]

Okay. I think the Social Network is increasingly a little bit lost on younger listeners of the show.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because it was. And whether or not. And that doesn't matter for our purposes.

[B]

Pull up a chair.

[A]

But whether or not some of these movies, you had to be their movies is kind of interesting to me as a result of this process. But we can keep going through it. Let's just say we'll hold space for Social Network. And then Martin Scorsese. And you wrote down the Wolf of Wall Street.

[B]

I did.

[A]

Which I believe is correct.

[B]

Yeah. I have immaculate taste.

[A]

No, but you have good taste. Very interesting taste. For sure, I think. And you know how to make a list with me, which I appreciate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Scorsese. How many people would really say this is his best movie of the century? Is that. Would you think that would be the most common response?

[B]

Bobby's nodding.

[A]

You think so, Bob?

[B]

I think among people who are paying attention, do I think it's his most widely seen. No, it's the Departed. Like, that's great.

[A]

Departed is the Departed would not be my pick.

[B]

Yeah, I know. You ride for Silence. And I will.

[A]

Silence will have its time on this show. That's how I feel about Silence. It will have its time on this show. Also, I learned something that I did not know, which is that Silence had been previously adapted by a Japanese filmmaker. I can't recall the filmmaker's name, but I was just reading about this the other day, and there's another version of that story. Now I have to go seek that out and go watch it. Sorry to Interrupt you.

[B]

It's okay. I admire silence and it is important for men to quite literally not say very much and grapple with their faith and ambition and all of that stuff every once in a while. So I give you that space every day. I give Martin Scorsese that space.

[A]

Adam Driver and Andrew Garfield together with tortured priests.

[B]

I was about to say, I do think that the experience of making Silence set forward a chain reaction that gave us the Andrew Garfield we have today. And again, it's March 2025, so I don't know what he's been up to the nine months. I believe in him and that he can continue just the absolutely unrivaled streak that he's on. But I also take no responsibility for any poor choices.

[A]

Same.

[B]

So I do thank Silence for that.

[A]

I've also written down the Irishman. The Irishman, Silence. The Departed, I think, are the ones that came to mind.

[B]

Killers of the Flower, Moondown.

[A]

I think it's ultimately a superior movie to the Departed, but a less important movie than the Departed in Scorsese's story. That aparted though, is just rip roaring entertaining. And so if you're looking for a fusion of the big idea, the craft and the entertainment, the Wolf of Wall street is the answer. It is the one that does all of those things. It's representative of this big idea of American greed and a thrilling Leonardo DiCaprio performance at the center of it. One of his best. Yes, and just a really, really, just a fun movie. So got no quibbles, just worth discussing because it's Scorsese. Next, was Parasite on your list? And we just had this conversation actually about Mickey 17. And we did land on Parasite as our number one Bong Joon Ho movie. So, you know, Memories of Murder pop to mind. That did come in at number two on our list.

[B]

Great film. We do like to, you know, it's tough.

[A]

The cool move would be Memories of Murder.

[B]

Well, it's tough when the good movie actually does win Best Picture, you know, and we never really.

[A]

It's a relatively new phenomenon and so.

[B]

We, we don't really know what to do with it. And so I think, like, our instinct is to overthink it because it was celebrated.

[A]

Yeah, I, I have been. I thought about this with the moonlight situation too. And I've just been struggling with this as a, as a person in middle age, which is that you just have this dawning realization that you are the mainstream target for consensus ideas and that you are the most.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

I mean, that's the Powerful consumer. And I mean, a Nora won Best Picture. That was your favorite movie of the year.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

How many times can you say that that was the case? You can also say it about Parasite. So you're in the Target as well. And we can pat ourselves on the back and be like, oh, well, the Academy is so international and just evolved so dramatically. They made so many changes. But it's like, also, you're at that age where you're not going against the grain as much anymore, and you don't want to go against the grain as much anymore. You want your taste to be, like, at the absolute pinnacle of their industries or whatever, because that communicates some kind of, like, generational power. Power shift. I'm really. I'm so obsessed with this idea. And so this exercise, I think, is kind of a sort of like a resonance of that idea. The Parasite thing, though, is just like. I rewatched some of it to prepare for that bong episode, and I was like, this is. This is it. You know, this is like, thriller, undeniable satire at its absolute best. So I won't. I won't argue any further on that one. Something's Got to Give. Is this the only choice? Of course, there would be a Nancy Myers movie on the list. Is this the only choice?

[B]

I. For a second, yes, it is the only choice.

[A]

Because I didn't write down the Intern or It's Complicated. I think it's complicated. It's very flawed. I think the Intern is very good.

[B]

I. I do like the inter. I like them both. I thought about It's Complicated but was immediately like, no, no, no. It is. It is flawed. It, like, has great charm and it has Meryl Streep. But the answer to me, between those two, which are woman of a certain age, wearing turtlenecks and rediscovering romance late in life.

[A]

They're twinned.

[B]

Yes. And Something's Got to Give is, like, clearly superior. And then the intern is kind of her answer to Baby Boom and pretty fascinating. And I do like Anne Hathaway, but it does also just have Rene Russo as the masseuse for a while, you know, falling in love with Robert De Niro.

[A]

Completely forgot about it.

[B]

Which is lovely, but, you know, like.

[A]

It'S a little baggier side story.

[B]

Exactly. And Something's Gotta Give is like, just the height of Nancy Meyer's powers. And also, I think, I mean, the most influential and kind of the culturally has kind of percolated, you know, through society the most.

[A]

So I'm totally fine with That I love. Some things I gotta give. I think that's probably my favorite Nancy Myers movie.

[B]

I mean it's the best one.

[A]

So the next pick you made is the Handmaiden, which I think I can't figure out if the Handmaiden is the cool person pick, right? Or not the cool person or the consensus obvious pick. I think this is the Park Chan Wook movie. My mind immediately went to Oldboy because Oldboy was this kind of like banging introduction for many American moviegoers into the Park Chan Wook experience. The Handmaiden was made at this very early stage of streamers funding movies. And so Amazon brought it to America. It's a beautiful, very sexy dark thriller. It's a movie that I love. So I'm not quibbling with it. I'm trying to figure out what would be the more interesting choice. Would it be this movie which is more recent or would it be Oldboy, which was extremely influential. And to your point about the Dark Knight in action movies, this is an action thriller, but it's got. You could make the case the most memorable fight scene in the movies in the 2000s in the hallway.

[B]

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I just want to. I just want to float that.

[B]

It was. I wrote down the Handmaiden because of all the sex obviously.

[A]

And there are not a lot of. Although the Wolf of Wall street has plenty of that stuff too.

[B]

But like in a lot of it different way. So I know.

[A]

Easily Park's sexiest movie.

[B]

Yeah, I know why I'm voting for the Handmaiden. But.

[A]

But it doesn't have to be the Twisted. You know, not like your traditional.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But you know, you know, Adrian Lyne romantic thriller. It's.

[B]

It's true. Romantic thriller is like. I don't really think there's a lot of romance erotic thriller in Lyon movies.

[A]

I know, you're right. Erotic thriller. Okay. I am generally good at the Handmaiden.

[B]

We are open to Oldboy.

[A]

I haven't seen the Handmaiden. I think since it came out that's something I gotta do is revisit that if we're gonna end up making that choice. And then maybe that's one where I like blink. See, that's something that could change as we go through the list. We could be going through the list. There could be a director who has a like a 1B and I blink at the last minute and I'm like, it's really got to be this. That's in play.

[B]

I'm well that it's going to Be a case by case basis. I'm. I'm okay with that being an option broadly. And then whether I accept the change will depend on the movie itself.

[A]

We are aligned on Before Sunset. Yeah, I just think that's our.

[B]

That's the one.

[A]

One of our movies.

[B]

You were saying to me that at some point that if you could have nudged me towards boyhood on this list, that that might be where you would go on your own.

[A]

I think Boyhood exists in the same realm as the way you were describing Moonlight. And I know that you're not a huge, like a huge boyhood fan, but I think it is now because it was like locked in an Oscar race and there was so much press around how it was made that what the movie actually is is like a little misunderstood or misremembered. And again, when I talk about this movie, I'm always like, God, this movie feels just like really close to my life. And same thing with the Squid and the whale, where any movie that kind of can scrape the interior of my mind. I tend to have a big emotional relationship too. But I do recognize that it does not work for everyone that actually the conceit itself or the actor who is Ellar Coltrane, some people just don't think he's that strong as a performer. And so that holds the movie back in some ways. I acknowledge all those criticisms. I think the. I think the Wolf of Wall street case is Everybody Wants Some because that's.

[B]

The most fun movie I do love Everybody Wants Some. And the older my sons grow, the more I'm just like, oh, wow. I have.

[A]

You're gonna be in one of those houses.

[B]

I had the supporting cast of Everybody Wants Some. Just growing up.

[A]

It's a very good point, which is.

[B]

Like, thrilling to me.

[A]

You need to hang with the boys.

[B]

Well, no, I just love it. I'm like, there is something like very, you know, good natured and goofy about that movie for all of their, you know, doltiness.

[A]

Yeah, it's poignant, but, and, but, but not saccharine and fun and funny, but not stupid.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It feels a bit more like a guy telling you an anecdote than it does a movie. Yeah, it's a little bit like, let me tell you about this thing, this great weekend I had 10 years ago. But the vibes are so good and the performances are so good. Obviously, that's when we got on the Glen Powell train, but before sunset, we just did a rewatchables about it like a month ago. It's just a tremendously important and one of the most romantic movies ever.

[B]

And also is a sequel.

[A]

It is a sequel. Is it the only sequel?

[B]

Let's see.

[A]

I guess the Dark Knight is technically a sequel.

[B]

No, we have some other.

[A]

We do, yeah.

[B]

I see some.

[A]

A few sequels, which is actually quite a few, which is interesting to talk through. Okay, let's keep moving. Cuaron. Now, you wrote Children of Men. Did you write that with me in mind?

[B]

No, I think it just. I was literally thinking through. Okay. I was thinking a little bit genre and a little bit like ticking off through directors. And I was like, cuaron. And that is what spoke to me. I think it's a movie that we've never, like, we've never done an episode about, but that is referenced all the time on this show.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that was another reason.

[A]

Yeah. I think there is a contingent of people who have said that it is the perfect movie of the century. You know, that it is like that collision of great script with a great idea, with the right actors and this relatively innovative style. Very Spielbergian in some ways. I don't think it would be my choice.

[B]

Say more.

[A]

I think Yi tu mama tambien probably says more about what's great about him as a filmmaker, which is that when he is like very connected to character, his movies work better for me. And the spectacle movies are very cool and I appreciate them. I like Gravity quite a bit.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But that's a very. Kind of a weak script. You know, it's a very stand in script. And Children of Men feels very schematic relative to a lot of post apocalyptic movies. It feels like it's like riffing, whereas ITU momentambien just feels like it is happening in front of you. And I think he has the ability to do that. I think he can. He's weirdly done a good job of that in like in a Harry Potter movie, which is also eligible Prisoner of Azkin.

[B]

But yeah, we didn't put that down.

[A]

We didn't. You wouldn't put Prisoner of Azkaban on the list. Many people would consider it.

[B]

And once again, I encourage them all to open letterboxd accounts or Google Docs accounts and make their own lists.

[A]

Would you put Roma on the list?

[B]

You know, I have not revisited Roma since 2018 and I. That was an unforgettable viewing experience for me and I did get to see it, unlike most people in like a beautiful Netflix theater, you know, with the sound and everything. And I was just completely shredded by it. I wonder how it would play now at home then does that matter?

[A]

I don't know. I own it on. On Blu Ray, if you'd like to borrow it.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

It's in the Criterion Collection.

[B]

Oh, it is good for. Good for them. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Netflix, to their credit, licenses their movies to the Criterion Collection. We've recently learned that Apple will not be doing that. And it does not seem as though Amazon has much interest in doing it anymore either. For example, killers of the Flower Moon will not be getting a 4k release anytime soon in America, which is just.

[B]

But it will internationally.

[A]

It's already been released in Italy.

[B]

Do you own that?

[A]

I don't. I was waiting because I assumed that Criterion was swoop in.

[B]

In Italy.

[A]

I do.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think it's already out of print, but I would take it. A lot of Americans were like, they'll never put this out. So they bought it right away, and I held out. You know who owns it? Tracy Lietz. Okay. I. My heart says ITU Mama Tambien. And that. That also raises the sex quotient.

[B]

Sure. And we do like that.

[A]

We do.

[B]

I'm open to that.

[A]

Okay. We'll come back to it. One car. Why you put in a romance. You put in the mood for love.

[B]

Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

[A]

I'm not gonna fight.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

The sequel.

[B]

All right.

[A]

2046.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Is eligible.

[B]

I've heard. I've read.

[A]

It's interesting. I read your tweets. I think in the Mood for Love is no brainer. I think that will probably be certainly in the top 10. You wrote the act of killing.

[B]

I think at this point, I got.

[A]

A bad taste in my mouth, having just seen Joshua Oppenheim's the End, which is not I didn't like very much.

[B]

Once again, let's set the scene. This is a list that I made on date night in Palm Springs, drunk, full of sweet, with a cocktail. Did I have a steak?

[A]

What do you get? I really did, Mr. Lyon, if you don't get a steak. No.

[B]

I was just trying to think of where I was in my life journey at this. And, yeah, I had a steak. I just thought to myself, documentary. And then I was like, that's the type of film. And then that's the first one I wrote down.

[A]

I think that's the one that you find on a lot of these lists.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, well, you've written some others. Some. Some of them I like, and some of them, respectfully, are television shows.

[A]

Right. So I wrote down OJ Made in America and the Last Days.

[B]

Yeah. Incredible. Incredible. And one of them did win an Oscar.

[A]

O.J. made in America won the best documentary.

[B]

So I guess that that means that it's eligible.

[A]

But maybe because I am thanked in the credits of OJ Made in America, we should not include it. I'd just like to send my love to Ezra Edelman, whose Prince movie is not allowed to be released, which sucks, which is terrible. I still haven't seen it, and I would like to.

[B]

It's March right now.

[A]

They're not gonna work it out. I think it's officially. I think Ezra's like doing interviews about how it's never gonna happen.

[B]

I mean, that's true, but that's terrible. You never know.

[A]

You never know. I love Sarah Polly's stories we tell. I love Amy Asif Kapadia's Amy Winehouse documentary. I put all the beauty in the bloodshed. Incredible movie, which was one of my, I think it was in my top five of the year came out. And I put Errol Morris is the Fog of War.

[B]

This is a good, this is a really good one.

[A]

Now, where we're at on the cut down list, which we're not even talking about yet. I didn't have room for a doc.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is testimony to this.

[B]

The Fog of war, though, you know, it's essential.

[A]

Yeah, that's a big one. Yeah, that's a big one. That's Robert McNamara being confronted by Errol Morris and kind of like illuminating the US Department of Defense's experiences and strategy over a 40 year period, particularly the Vietnam War. So pull red circle next to that one little red dot.

[B]

We can circle several of them, except for the Last Dance, which I loved so much, and it really got us through the pandemic. That's terrific.

[A]

It's a TV miniseries.

[B]

The iPad.

[A]

When he's about to, I mean, he innovated a whole new way of making so many documentaries use the iPad technique of just like, hey, look at this thing that happened to you 12 years ago. Comedy. You wrote Superbad.

[B]

I did.

[A]

I was fully on board with this. I wrote Anchorman, the Legend of Ron Burgundy underneath it as the goofy epitovian era of comedy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I, I've pivoted to Anchorman.

[B]

Yeah. I, that's fine with me.

[A]

Okay. So we don't even need to debate that.

[B]

I, I, I think that I put Superbad down because I have a very, I have a clear memory of seeing Superbad in theaters. Packed house.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Everyone screaming and crying and laughing. And also I was with my then boyfriend who was just very high, and I was Just like trying to navigate him through like a. A. A loud experience.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, you know, it was like my own super bad within a super bad. But Anchorman is extremely funny. I would also accept step.

[A]

Step brothers, but I would as well.

[B]

Yeah, but Stepbrothers feels like the cool pick, and Anchorman feels like the true pick.

[A]

I don't think. Honestly, the thing I like about Anchorman is that there is like a real female character in that movie. There's like, not a lot of good female characters in a lot of these movies. Very true. I guess Emma Stone, kind of sort of. But she's basically a sketch in Superbad. She's great.

[B]

She's wonderful.

[A]

Christine Applegate actually has a lot to do and is like essential to Anchorman. Okay. Whiplash. Now you wrote Whiplash?

[B]

Yeah, because I. This is a group project.

[A]

Okay. You like Whiplash?

[B]

Yeah, sure does. You know, I don't know. Listen, I know I do really like it, and it is also. I find it.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

It's an incredible movie. What it's about is a little annoying to me and just like a all you men need to calm down sort of way, you know? But no, it's a great film.

[A]

Got it. La La Land.

[B]

I, as you know, love La La Land.

[A]

It's. It's good. Babylon.

[B]

I weren't. I. I love you guys and it is really good.

[A]

But no, Bob, Babylon.

[C]

I don't think Babylon really falls into this list.

[B]

You want to do First Man.

[A]

I mean, first man would be the real cool guy, but that would be.

[B]

The, like, you know, and that's also about, like, you, like men need to get your shit together.

[A]

What do you mean? But what are you talking about? Sometimes you have to go to space.

[B]

You're just a bunch of boys. Is like at least a literal quote in that one.

[A]

You know, I think it's very self aware.

[B]

And that. No good. It's good. And that last scene of them, it's.

[A]

Just really how far apart we really are.

[C]

I don't think we really want the Damien Chazelle movie where he's like, I got it all figured out, guys. I'm really content. You know, I think we want the messiness.

[A]

Completely agree. That's why the Evil Knievel movie is a great idea. Another tortured soul. I don't think Whiplash is going to make the long. The shortlist, which is really hard for me. Well, if you'd like to know what Whiplash means to me, there is a rewatchable, probably my most vulnerable rewatchable.

[B]

Right. Because you did it with Bill.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it is like, speaking of psychological experiments. And speaking of. It's like the content is good, but I have some notes about the emotions between the two. It's fine. You've worked it out. I'm great.

[A]

Your life, your art and your art, your life.

[B]

Sometimes you're wonderful men.

[A]

Mad Max, Fury Road.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't really think there's much of a debate here.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm just sort of like, if. If Steven Soderbergh says it's the. The best action movie ever made, then we. On this podcast, we respect Steven Soderbergh, at least in that we honor his opinions about other movies.

[A]

Well, I want to come back to it in a minute. So TAR comes next.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're one day away from recording a Cate Blanchett hall of Fame episode. I haven't revisited TAR yet. I might watch it tonight, but it feels like it's going to be really high on our list.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Well, we're doing a Hall of Fame, right?

[A]

No, no. I mean on this list, like, on 25 for 25.

[B]

Well, we both want it to be really high on this list, but on the list that you have put together, it's not on it.

[A]

I know. So. I don't know. I'm.

[B]

So there are 16 movies from 2022 that are definitely the most exhilarating moviegoing experiences I've had in the last five years, and neither is currently on the shortlist. We don't have anything after 2019 on the list right now.

[A]

That's correct. So let's keep going.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Mission Impossible. Fallout. Another action movie.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Another sequel.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Are we being redundant with Mad Fury Road and the Dark Knight by including Impossible, Fallout, and perhaps even Top Gun Maverick, which you have on the list. Next. This is a lot of sameyness. They're not the same movies, but the energy and the experiences are kind of the same.

[B]

Well, I hear you, but then I think we have to jettison Mad Max. Very rogue.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

Well, we can't not have. Okay. I mean, we can pick between the Tom Cruise movies.

[A]

I think we will have to.

[B]

I know that we have to do that, but I think if you just. If you want to, like, get rid of action movies.

[A]

I don't want to get rid of action movies. I think it re. Raises the question of the Nolan choice.

[B]

Well, I'm not putting Oppenheimer on this.

[A]

Why? What's wrong with Oppenheimer?

[B]

The third hour is what's Wrong with Oppenhauer. Robert Downey Jr. Is what's Wrong with Oppenheimer.

[A]

Many people disagree.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Myself included.

[B]

Yeah. And the Academy. So how do you feel, how do.

[A]

You feel about a Norris win? You know, like sometimes the best movie wins. What can I say? I don't, you know, this is just what's happening. You're 40, deal with it. Top Gun Maverick, I don't think is gonna make the cut. I just, I'm not saying it's not important to you and your family and.

[B]

Also to this show and to cinema. It is in 2022. It's like, do you remember, like we were down bad. We were down so bad as a global community. And then Tom Cruise was like frankly stubborn. And I disagreed with him about how long he made us wait to see that film. And then we went to see it and I, I, it was my first movie back in theaters after having Knox. It was like the, you know, the world opened up to me and to everyone else and that shit is beautiful. And do I tell my son the story of Top Gun every single night before he goes to bed? At his request? Yes, I do. And when he says that, he means Top Gun Maverick. The first line is there once was a pilot named Maverick. Sometimes I substitute in other people and he's like, no, Maverick. So yes, it is of outsized importance to me, but it in, in terms of blockbusters, in terms of people going to the movies, like deeply, deeply important. And it works like, it just, it is like a blockbuster machine, but it works. And a three year old can understand what's going on and you know, his grandfather can sit with him and also be like, ooh, you know, when, when Tom Cruise tells the air boss who is John Hammoff. So it's, it's a beautiful movie.

[A]

Let me pitch a theory at you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the Force Awakens for people who are addicted to movie stars.

[B]

Okay. I mean, you don't need to say it like that.

[A]

Well, I'm just, just, just think about it. Just think about it. It's giving you a lot of what you, what feels comfortable, what feels good, what feels familiar, gussied up a little bit with some new technology.

[B]

They flew all of those planes.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

You know, I'm just putting that up there.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

Definitely. It's just a much better movie even if you don't come into it with the context than the Force Awakens. It's just much more entertaining and it's much more well crafted, especially how the script actually translates to the screen.

[A]

I'm not saying it is Equal to the Force Awakens in terms of the experience that it's giving you, though. There's no invention. It's a press the pleasure button. But do you remember when he throws.

[C]

The rulebook in the trash, though?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He throws the.

[B]

That is part of the story. Every night. That's part of the story. I say we. And then he throws the rulebook in the trash and everyone goes. But it's okay because he knows the rules. That is part of the story of Top Gun. It ends before they have to do any death defying.

[A]

Like, I'm a huge fan of Top Gun Maverick.

[B]

That's fine.

[A]

I'm not saying I'm not.

[B]

I understand that it's probably not going to go on, but I think that you are being a little snooty. I. I am at a time where I don't. I was just very kind about many of your films and I was like.

[A]

You were really rude about Silence.

[B]

You do.

[A]

This is what.

[B]

I was not.

[A]

You said, this is what men need to do.

[B]

I.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I made space for it. I held space. And then I said, thank you for everything Silence did for Andrew Garfield. I have given you a lot of your choices.

[A]

These were all your choices. We're going through your. We haven't even gotten to my picks.

[B]

Yet because sometimes I do the work in a group project. Okay. So this. It's a discussion.

[A]

Moving on. Maverick is teetering on the edge. Just for the record. Yeah. We all know the Royal Tenenbaums, which I think now has to go in because Hackman passed away.

[B]

Yeah, but I put it on the list before you did.

[A]

And it would have been my choice as well.

[B]

Right. Because Rushmore is not eligible.

[A]

Correct. Rushmore is pre 2000. Rushmore. My favorite. Wes Anderson. It would have been hard for me to convince you to do Rushmore anyway. We probably would have netted it to Tenenbaums regardless.

[B]

I believe on our Anderson rankings that I did win with Tenenbaums. It was a standoff.

[A]

This is not a competition. This is a collaboration.

[B]

I persuaded you to put Tenenbaums at number one.

[A]

So we're gonna go. Royal Tenenbaums. Asteroid City. Grand Budapest Hotel. My beloved Moonrise Kingdom. I love dogs. That's your favorite?

[B]

No, but fantastic dog, Mr. Fox is also really big in my house.

[A]

Another 2007 entrant. Lots of 2007 movies here.

[B]

No, I mean, Tenenbaums is. Is essential.

[A]

Okay. I'm not going to argue. I think it's pretty much the choice Melancholia this gets you, Kiki.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Again, right? Do we need two Kikis? Interesting question. Melancholy happens to be a big favorite of mine as well. I can't, I. There can't be very many Lars Von True movies you have time for. I'm not saying that judgmentally. Like it's really not your speed.

[B]

No, but this one is so my speed that it makes up for the rest. I mean, this is just like an incredible movie about depression, hating other people and the end of the world.

[A]

That is kind of what every Lars Von Trier movie is about.

[B]

Yeah, but this one is also stars Kirsten Dunst at like a Perfect wedding.

[A]

Now that that's.

[B]

And Alexander Skarsgrd.

[A]

Yeah, that's what drags it over the line for you, I believe. You know the other eligible Von Trier movies, just for the record, would be Dancer in the Dark, Dogville, Manderley, the crazy sequel to Dogville starring a different actress, Antichrist, which would be just straight up hilarious if we put Antichrist on the list. Nymphomaniac parts one and two.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the House that Jack Built, which is about a serial killer played by Matt Dillon. Lars Von Trier, extremely controversial figure, some might say problematic. Definitely a genius level film director. I think it's a good choice. I'm surprised by how few European filmmakers are going to end up on this list, which we will get to momentarily.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This would be at least a push in that direction, you know, given that.

[B]

I mean, we said when we asked the project, we will continue to remind everyone that we are two children raised on Hollywood. So.

[A]

Yeah, but I think we'll do a pretty good job ultimately with Asian cinema on this list and not so good with the European, which is kind of fascinating anyway. All right, you mentioned that there's no way that Brokeback Mountain is going to end up on the list. But you wrote down Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Speaking of Asian cinema, Asian American cinema. I don't think I could find a spot for Crouching Tiger when I did my cut down list. Yeah, but maybe we should. Is it weird to not have Ang Lee here? Two time best director winner.

[B]

I do think that my thought process was Ang Lee. What Ang Lee movies should go on. Sense and Sensibility is not eligible. And then I went straight to Crouching Tiger, which was hugely influential, a huge phenomenon.

[A]

Huge.

[B]

Really introduced like Asian cinema to like a huge, I would say to like.

[A]

Art house Oscar crowd. I would say like that kind of elegant wuxia when you ping style of filmmaking coming on the heels of the Matrix and it being Like a kind of the version of it they would play at the Angelica, you know, and Ang Lee synthesizing a lot of those 50s, 60s and 70s movies. And then also the action hero, Hong Kong stuff of the 90s. So I really like it as a pick and I really like this movie. This movie is definitely a big deal to me when I was just a college student getting interested in the Academy Awards.

[B]

There's also a timing aspect to it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I guess I didn't think too hard about this when I was doing the Cut down list. But let's just keep going because Crashing Tiger is a big deal for sure. Angli's got a lot of interesting movies in the last 25 years. One of the problems with him is that he always acts. He always does something different. He's like, I'm going to do the Hulk. Just kidding. I'm doing Taking Woodstock. Just kidding. I'm doing. What's the crazy movie with Jewel and Tobey Maguire? The western that he did. He's always doing something that you don't. Anyway, you wrote 25th hour.

[B]

I did.

[A]

This is one of my favorite movies of all time, so I'm obviously not going to argue with you about it. But I did write down Inside Man.

[B]

I also love to film Inside man, but we only get one Spike, and.

[A]

I would say that the bulk of the top 10 Spike movies are in the 80s and 90s.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

There's not a ton from the last 25 years that you would put up there with the very best. 25th hour is one. Inside man is probably the one right behind it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What comes after that? I mean, is it blackkklansman? I guess Bamboozled would be the other choice.

[B]

Right. It might be blackkklansman.

[A]

I would. I prefer Bamboozled to blackkklansman. But I think if you were looking at, like, consensus choices, that's one of the few that really broke through in a big way. Maybe. Maybe that'll change when Highest to Lowest comes along. We shall see.

[B]

Well, the other thing that Inside man gets you is Denzel.

[A]

That's a good point. And is he not represented here anywhere?

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah, no, it's tough.

[A]

Eek. Okay, we'll get to that. Mulholland Drive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gotta do it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I wrote Twin Peaks, the Return, which is the television program.

[B]

Yeah. First of all, that's a television program. Second of all, there's a podcast called the Watch where they talk about that all the time.

[A]

Yeah. What about Inland Empire? This is deeply unpleasant.

[B]

It's Mulholland. Drive.

[A]

Okay. Mulholland Drive. Continuing on the lost city of Z. Now, I liked this pick. I would really love to find a place for my buddy James Gray.

[B]

As would I. And this is my pick of the dame's Gray. But I do also. The Immigrant is obviously very good and celebrated. And two Lovers, as you know, means a lot to me.

[A]

That's one I like a lot as well for a variety of reasons. You get Joaquin Phoenix, I get Vanessa Shaw. We share Gwyneth.

[B]

Do you have a list right now? I don't think so. I mean, she did obviously stop acting at some point.

[A]

I'm perfectly content with leaving Gwyneth off the list. But that's a spoiler that there will be no Iron man movies on our list. The Devil Wears Prada.

[B]

Well, I mean, you know, I was just writing some moms, you know, Amanda stuff, some cocktails.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I think a hugely influential movie that people don't really.

[A]

I don't have a lot bad to say about it. I'm not really here to denigrate the devil. Worse product. I don't think it's among the 25 best films of this. No.

[B]

But in terms of like blockbuster or just big budget movies that make money starring women that are like well made, still quoted kind of in the consciousness, I think like explained fashion to like a lot of people, which whatever you think about it, it's like a multi trillion dollar business. And it's also, you know, it's not a rom com, but there are so few movies that get made starring major women actors that are not romantic comedies that it's notable on its own. Also just hugely important to me, but.

[A]

All very strong points and valid that I will not take away from you.

[B]

That's fine, but it doesn't have to go on. It's just good.

[A]

Margaret. Margaret, yeah. Not Manchester by the Sea, Not. You can count on me. If we're talking about the Kenneth Lonergan.

[B]

Oeuvre, you can write them both down.

[A]

Well, all three of them would be in my personal canon.

[B]

Yeah, but Margaret's also sort of my in my personal canon.

[A]

All three of them, like absolutely pulverized me and Margaret. You know, I lent some guy my Blu ray copy and I just never got it back and it still makes sense.

[B]

Do I know who this guy is?

[A]

You do. I won't say his name.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'm mad about it.

[B]

Does this guy not know where it is?

[A]

I don't know. We don't speak anymore.

[B]

Oh, interesting. Oh, wait, now I think I know who it is. Lol that was your choice.

[A]

I'm disappointed. And it's out of print. It's out of print and it costs like $80 on eBay now, I think.

[B]

Okay, well, I know what I can get you for Christmas.

[A]

I love Margaret. I don't know where it ended up on my list. The year that it came out. That was right around when I first started doing those yearly hundred lists, or at least publishing them. I think it's the right choice, but I struggled to find a place for it on the big list. A lot of movies that start with the letter M on these lists.

[B]

Okay, so we're not doing Alphabet Theory. At least that's true.

[A]

The Bourne Identity. I say no, that's fine. I think it's good. I think there's a little overrated.

[B]

If Chris were here, he would support me.

[A]

I went with a different Doug Liman movie as my potential, which would be Edge of Tomorrow.

[B]

It's also good.

[A]

But we already have Mission Impossible, Fallout, and then I think Top Gun Maverick in second place. So that's not going to make the cut either. Hereditary. I'd like to say thank you for that.

[B]

You're so welcome. Oh, that was another one I said when I sent you. I said that you should do more foreign, more animated, more horror and more documentary if you wanted. You did it. Well, did you?

[A]

Well, when we did the cut down list, you did something interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I want to go to it and we'll circle back, but you made a list called Are We Being Too Cute or Not Cute Enough by ignoring. And these were the films that you listed. Hereditary Margaret, Top Gun Maverick, Uncut Gems, which is, as of now, is not on the top 25. And the master. Now, this is like one big fat Amanda pick, right? Wedged in between four Sean picks.

[B]

Well, but.

[A]

And I know you like Margaret, but you know what I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah, I. But I think so what I mean by this. So I added this category because, as I previously mentioned, you have a category is much longer than mine titled these would make the list more well rounded and less predictable. All right, I'm just gonna read a few of them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Fish Tank, All Timer. Incredible Movie. Also on every list.

[A]

It is. It is on every list. A lot of these lists are like 100 movies long.

[B]

Yee Old Boy Drive My Car Burning A Touch of Sin. Talk to her.

[A]

I do have the Lost City of Z, though.

[B]

Lost City of Z, which I put on Holy Motors. Portrait of a Lady on Fire, which I love, but also is now like the sight and sound you know, like, these are all. These are all movies that are on other lists, and our movies are on other lists, too. But the movies I identified are like our movies that are also on other lists. So that's why I put those.

[A]

Yeah. I think the challenge of doing a show like this is trying to get out of the way of your Persona and try to front your person.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And my Persona is hereditary Uncut Gems Guy. And my person is like, talk to her and Wendy and Lucy.

[B]

Sure. But that's not even the Kelly Reichert that I would pick.

[A]

That's fine, but I'm just sharing from my perspective. I've talked myself into a bit that isn't maybe actually how I know.

[B]

And now Marvel is making commercials for you.

[A]

I know, I know, I know.

[B]

Well, they always were, so I know.

[A]

And I'm not trying to get too meta in this conversation, but it is striking me that films that hit me hard when I say Squid in the well is like a big deal movie to me. And that's not the cool choice of Lady Bird or Marriage Story. Squid in the Wheel's not really on a lot of Best Hundred Movies lists, and so I want to have more.

[B]

I mean, Marriage Story isn't really either.

[A]

I guess it's not. I feel like that movie is a little, like, got Netflixed a little bit. Anyway, I finished going through all of the films that you recommended, Uncut Gems, and I think Good Time is worth discussing, too. The previous Safdie Brothers movie, I made a whole list of additions. Speaking to those prompts that you noted off of your first shot, I mentioned Uncle Boonmi and then talked to her in Volvaire. For Almodovar, I wrote Midnight in Paris, Woody Allen's Lima Paris, which when it came out.

[B]

No, I know. I mean huge hit. I listen.

[A]

It's a very good Woody Allen movie.

[B]

It is incredibly charming. I saw it at BAM in Brooklyn and was just full of people just, like, chuckling along, being like, I get that Hemingway joke.

[A]

You know?

[B]

And it was like I was laughing, too, because I got the Hemingway joke. But then I felt bad about myself, so that's why it's not on my list.

[A]

It's very entertaining. It's also forever riddled with controversy, and doing an episode about it would be kind of a pain in the neck, to be honest. I wrote down three Michael Haneka movies. I think you could write down six. Piano Teacher, Cachet and Amour sprung to mind immediately. I think the white ribbon's on the table there. Funny games on the table there there's like a bunch of movies. Again, he's a me director and is like a very unsparing, withering, as you know. I mean, you do see that in the world.

[B]

Yeah, I see that in the world. I've seen.

[A]

You've seen Amor. We talked about Amora on the show.

[B]

Yeah, Amor. I like, famously saw very early Dating Zach and also at BAM and just sat there across the.

[A]

You saw White Ribbon, I think, right?

[B]

Saw White Ribbon. Funny Games. I mean, like, totally fucked up, but.

[A]

You know, in fact, that was like a very pop Hanukkah movie.

[B]

Yes, exactly. So. And I do tend to respond to the pop stuff more.

[A]

Yeah. The Tree of Life.

[B]

Yeah, it's weird. The Tree of Life is not on there.

[A]

So we'll come back to the other two lists that I added that are challenging, but the Tree of Life. It's gonna be hard for me to not put the Tree of Life on this.

[B]

I mean, I think that is correct.

[A]

Yeah. The New World has its defenders as well. I'm not as fond of the New World, but the Malacheads love that one. I wrote two Edgar Wright movies, Shaun of the Dead and Scott Pilgrim versus the World. I think these are very big picture movies and they represent something in the culture that is sort of like self awareness, but not at the expense of craft that I really like in modern movies that I think only a few directors know how to do well. Edgar Wright is one of them, obviously. Spirited Away will almost certainly be the representative for Miyazaki. Bobby, I would welcome any other additional recommendations you might have for Miyazaki. I also find that kind of the 90s and 80s stuff is the most resonant for me with him beyond Spirited Away. Which is not to say that the movies in the last 20 years are bad, but you find Totoro and Porco Rosso. Porco Rosso, sure. Howl's Moving Castle. You find that those movies kind of come up more in the all timers.

[C]

Well, Howl's Moving Castle is 2004, I believe, and that's one that's beloved. Kind of like in my generation. Ponyo is beloved too, but I don't think it is striving to be as quite.

[A]

Feels more slim compared to the others.

[C]

Yes, definitely. I mean, my personal favorite is Mononoke, but that is 1997, I believe, so it's not eligible here. I think that Spirited Away, where you landed, is probably the only one that would fall in consideration here.

[A]

Spirited Away is on the Sight and sound list. Right. Where did that land? Can you look that up, Bob? Sure. You mentioned Edward Yang's EE Pan's Labyrinth. Sure. Guillermo del Toro's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. This is probably his. I know the Shape of Water won Best Picture, but I feel like it's his most celebrated movie. Sully. There's no Clint Eastwood on this list.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would you pick Sully? What would you pick?

[B]

I do really like Sully. I'm. What else is post. Sorry.

[A]

The Mule. Would you go with the Mule? No, I was just Richard Jewel.

[B]

I. So I want to say in 2020, the New York Times critics did a Best movies of the 21st century. And I swear to God, A.O. scott put Million Dollar Baby at number three. And that. That's just like a real thing that happened.

[A]

Couldn't be me.

[B]

And then I was remembering when. I remember the draft that we did where Chris was like sitting on Million Dollar Baby and Blockbuster at the last minute or Oscar or something.

[A]

I do remember that. Yeah.

[B]

I would not pick Million Dollar Baby. I wouldn't either at number three or at any other.

[A]

I think it's Sully.

[B]

Yeah, like Sully a lot. I saw that at the Vista.

[A]

Oh, how nice. Okay.

[C]

Spirited Away, by the way, is 75 on the latest Sight and Sound poll.

[A]

It's a little lower than I would have guessed. I would have guessed top 50 probably next time around when there's more young Miyazaki heads or voting. Okay, quickly, through the rest of this list, Meeks cut off the other Kelly Reich, one of the other Kelly Rykar movies. Hell or High Water, which I think is still very widely appreciated. The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward, Robert Ford, directed by your fav. Andrew Dominic. Steve McQueen's hunger did not put 12 Years a Slave.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You could put it if you wanted to. You could put Widows.

[B]

I was going to say you could put Widows.

[A]

A rival. Now, you did not have Villeneuve on your first list.

[B]

I didn't. I was waiting for you to make your decision. I do think that I. This is when, looking around when I realized how many of the letterbox kids love ensondise and that is the number one on letterbox for all of them. And I was kind of like, all right, kiddos.

[A]

I wouldn't say that wouldn't be for me. My pick would be Sicario. But you can.

[B]

Well, you could write that down.

[A]

Okay, I'll just write it down.

[B]

Sicario's very good.

[A]

It certainly is. Sicario, the favorite. If you're going to pick a Yorgos Lanthimos movie, he is one of the premier Directors of this time, whether you like his movies or not.

[B]

I like the Lobster.

[A]

I do, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that would be a good pick for this list.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't have it on the cut down list, but nevertheless, I like where you're at. Lobster. Very funny and insightful movie. A Prophet, which we will not be putting because of Emilia Perez. Portrait of a Lady on Fire. You mentioned the Raid. We have a lot of action movies on here, but the Raid, much like Oldboy, incredibly influential and a thrilling movie. Just pointing out they're following up with John Wick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They killed his dog.

[B]

Yeah. And you would do John Wick over John Wick 4?

[A]

Probably.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Bad Boys 2. There's no Michael Bay movie on here. I'd also submit Ambulance for consideration. The L and the A are capitalized because it takes place in the city of Los Angeles. Yeah, that's a phenomenal film. Corridor Shoplifters.

[B]

Devastating.

[A]

Li Chandong's Burning. Christian Petzold's Phoenix.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Claire, Denis Beautrevai. Now, all of those movies I just named, you find on a lot of these lists, right? I like some more than others. Burning, that was like my number two movie of the year that year. That's a big one for me.

[B]

Yeah, you guys loved that.

[A]

I really liked that movie a lot. What about the Lord of the Rings? The Fellowship of the Ring? Are we. Are we really not gonna put that on? What the fuck's your problem, lady? Do you remember when that shit came out and we were like, we did it. We got it. Peter Jackson, you beautiful bastard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That was awesome.

[B]

I. I do remember.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

Yeah, they're good. They're good. I have absolutely no memory of what happens in any of them besides, like, the Ring.

[A]

Why, you fools.

[B]

And then. And like, you know, and I know my precious and my mother, for some reason, is not aware of the Lord of the Rings. Both my children, like, my precious, like, that is what her does. And I'm just like, this is up, ma'. Am. Like, someone needs Tolkien right?

[A]

From what he knew anyway.

[B]

I mean, sure, don't just throw your.

[A]

Hands up because we're in hour two here. Like, we're talking about the Fellowship of the fucking Raid.

[B]

Yeah, you're not gonna make the long list, but that is cool. I would put. What was the nine hour Peter Jackson Beatles movie.

[A]

Get back.

[B]

Get back.

[A]

That's a TV show. A Separation as Gar Farhadi's very, very upsetting movie Wall E. We haven't even talked about Pixar. Yet.

[B]

Yeah. There's no Pixar on this.

[A]

Ratatouille.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don Herzfeld did. Such a beautiful day. Big one for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, I wrote call me by your name and you responded with a bigger.

[B]

Splash, a bigger slash.

[A]

I don't know if either are going to make the cut. We'll get there. Hero. And Donnie Darko. That was. Now, this was just the first round. We're just done with the first round now. We're going to get. We're going to do 30 minutes of nitty gritty here.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. We're going to do some listing now. My next act was during Sundance weekend.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Two stone cold hours of chisel and rock. I took all this raw material and I went mining for the truth. Right now. Do you think I should say where the list stands right now at this juncture and then we can bang through some more of it?

[B]

Yeah. Because we might reorder a few things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is your proposal. So this is.

[A]

And you were not, like, offended by this?

[B]

This. No, I wasn't offended by it. I wanted. There are some. Some things I want to discuss with you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But. And maybe some alternate films for the filmmakers and maybe a couple things we need to squeeze in. I'm open to almost hate it. I just want to note that this is the edited list because the first list you sent me was quickly followed by, wait, I just realized that There Will Be Blood is not on this. To which I said, you can take Almost Famous off and put There Will Be Blood on. So that is the cut that I made.

[A]

I did do that, and I will.

[B]

And I'm sorry to all of you and to Cameron Crow.

[A]

I'm going to start this by reading the hard cuts. These movies don't appear on the list right now. For me, personally, these were really, really, really hard cuts. AI, there's no Steven Spielberg on the list right now.

[B]

I thought that you would pick Minority Report.

[A]

I thought about it, but it just. Too much cruise. Too much action. Too samey.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Even though Minority Report is great Whiplash.

[B]

Yeah, It's.

[A]

It's hard. It's hard.

[B]

Your choice. It's hard out here.

[A]

I did it Almost Famous.

[B]

Yeah, I took it.

[A]

You were a brat. I don't appreciate that.

[B]

It's not a brat. It's a good movie.

[A]

I love Cameron.

[B]

Is it my favorite Cameron and Crow movie? No, it's not.

[A]

I think it's very important film.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

[A]

Super bad. Hard cut. Yeah, we love Superbad moonlight hard cut. Yeah, we didn't talk in the first round about Certified Copy, but I would say that that is in. That, to me, is we don't talk about that movie that much on the show, but that is in a similar realm of this is really important and good. Yes, we would never do Certified Copy on the Rewatchables, but it would be a great movie to kind of like, take apart together on a show.

[B]

Agree.

[A]

TARP didn't make the cut. Arrival didn't make the cut.

[B]

Well, I know, but did Sicario make the cut?

[A]

Well, it's not on there right now.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

And Wally. So maybe if we want to, we can put Sicario right next to it.

[B]

So Wally is your Pixar pick.

[A]

Wally is my Pixar pick, but it's not making the cut.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There is no Pixar movie on the list right now. There's no Spielberg on the list. There's no Denis Villeneuve on the list. There's no Luca Guadagnino on the list. I know.

[B]

Which is very upsetting to me.

[A]

There's another movie that I thought of that is resonating in culture right now called Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Because what Severance is doing is so deeply riffing on Eternal Sunshine, almost to the point of frustration for me personally. But Brokeback Mountain is not there. Francis ha is not there.

[B]

Yeah. There's no Noah Baumbach.

[A]

There's no Noah Baumbach. Although obviously he. I feel like Lady Bird, you know, he gets some.

[B]

Stop it. No.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

They are independent people making their own art. And we can honor both of them.

[A]

Absolutely. I'm sure. I'm sure he never read the script before she went out and made the movie. Let's just read the list.

[B]

Well, you don't.

[A]

You want me to keep going?

[B]

I mean, there's no Steven Soderbergh on this list.

[A]

There's no Steven Soderbergh. Ocean's Eleven is eligible. I know that it's eligible.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And it's not here. The Tree of Life. There's no Terrence Malick.

[B]

Sorry, I was just thinking about Chris Ryan and UNESCO sites. The way you said that was the way that.

[A]

What did he say?

[B]

He was talking about Nolan making the Odyssey and he's just like. He's. They're honoring UNESCO sites. He is honoring them. And it's just really funny.

[A]

Did you see the photo of Tom Holland on a Viking ship with Nolan that came out today? Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Just go to, like, whatever. Christopher Nolan updates x.com Odyssey let's go.

[B]

First images on this edit. I found Chris's blog. And here it goes. Okay, so Chris Nolan. I guess they have to wear life jackets if they're not.

[A]

I think so when they're making the film. Yeah. They gotta be safe.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

They're not performing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The Love in Basketball is not on the list. Didn't come up on the first batch. That's kind of a tough one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Birth.

[B]

No Jonathan Glazer.

[A]

No Jonathan Glazer on the list right now. No Zone of Interest. No Sexy Beast.

[B]

Birth would be our pick. It would be my pick.

[A]

I would be comfortable negotiating to birth but not giving birth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, I'll never give birth, except to the birth of ideas on this show.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

A Star Is Born. It never came up.

[B]

I know my limits. I know I gotta pick my battles.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I love that movie. I recently. I don't remember what movie, what I was saying that I was searching for, but there was a. Mom will love this pack of movies. You know how sometimes, like, when you're on.

[A]

On digital.

[B]

Yeah, digital. And they like, we'll sell you a bundle. And it was like.

[A]

And it was funny.

[B]

Valentine's Day. No. And it was like four Gary Marshall films and A Star Is Born, the Bradley Cooper version. And I was like, this is rude.

[A]

I mean, you know, these are your people. So no Michael Honig on the list.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No Bridesmaids on the list.

[B]

I'm fine with it. I know it was, like, incredibly important.

[A]

No Kenneth Lonergan.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Women can make money.

[A]

The Lord of the Rings didn't make it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't feel good about it.

[B]

All right, well, we can discuss it.

[A]

No Werner Herzog.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Furthermore, no documentaries. Well, other missing Americans of note.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

Clint Eastwood. M. Night Shyamalan. Sam Raimi. Todd Haynes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No Damien Chazelle or Barry Jenkins. No. James Gray? No Safdies. No Ari Aster. No Robert Eggers. No Soderbergh, as you mentioned. No Sarah Polley. She's Canadian. No. Denis Villeneuve. He's Canadian. No. Michael Bay. No. Richard Kelly. No. Noah Baumbach? No Kathryn Bigelow. He didn't even talk about the hurt locker or zero dark 30. For a variety of reasons. Kelly Reichardt. Also not represented here. Only one European director, and it's Lars Hunter and it's Lars Ventricle.

[B]

That's really weird.

[A]

So that means El Madova are not represented. Yorgos Lanthimo is not represented. Paul Verhoeven. Celine Sciamma, Thomas Vinterberg, The Dardens. Ken Loach, Pavel Pavlikowski didn't mention Ida. Or Cold War. No Mike Lee? No Paolo Sorrentino? No Bella Tarr? No Mia Hansen Love. No Olivier Esayas? No Edgar Wright? No Luca Guadagnino? No Jonathan Glazer.

[B]

We are also using European in the pre Brexit sense.

[A]

Fair point. Not European Union. The continent of Europe, right?

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Okay. Four Asian directors represented on this list. I won't say who they are because we'll go through the list momentarily.

[B]

Well, everybody else knows.

[A]

I'm giving them the mind state of where we are now in the process. We're having the meeting.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

So based on what we just talked about, no Ang Lee, no Zhang Yamo. No Abbas Kirstami, no Li Chongdong, no Hou Shao Shen, no Satoshi Khan, no Asghar Farhadi, Jafar Panahi, Wang Bing, John Wu Rice Kahamaguchi, Edward Yang, Takeshi Kitano, Hong Sang Soo Giachanka. Like none of these.

[B]

Yeah, listen, 25 is not a lot.

[A]

OK? One Mexican director is represented. It's Alfonso Cuaron.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We'll get to that in a minute. Which one? We don't know. No Del Toro, no Inaritu. Lol.

[B]

Yeah, I mean one of those was foreseeable.

[A]

We did not mention Inaritu at all. Also two time best director winner like Ang Lee. Carlos Regattas, not represented. Alonso Ruiz Palacios, not represented. Robert Rodriguez, no South American or African directors. I blame you. Okay, so I think Lucretia Martel and Zama is the movie that you most see on the lists. I've just not never been a big Lucretia Martell fan. Adam Neyman is a tremendous fan of hers if you want to read. Great writing about her work. He has done a lot of it, but you know, no Fernando Maraes, no Pablo Lorraine. Many other South American filmmakers that we're not talking about on this list. One Australian. So it's just George Miller, no Peter Jackson and no Baz Luhrmann. You fought tooth and nail for Moulin Rouge and I said no, Peter Jackson.

[B]

Is from New Zealand. Just to be clear, we're talking Australia and the continent.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Did your child.

[A]

No shots of the Kiwis. I respect New Zealand. You're absolutely right about that. Now on this list there's only one best picture winner.

[B]

Okay. I think we feel right about that.

[A]

There's only one comic book movie. There's only. I wrote down one action movie. That's not right, that's wrong. There's three action Movies. There's only one horror movie.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know how I feel about that.

[B]

I. Let's. As I said, this is a negotiation.

[A]

Three sequels, okay? And these are the years that are not represented on the list. You mentioned that there were no films after 2019, which is true to this moment. Then no movies from 2005, 2012, 2014. Weak years, or just other years were that much stronger. Now, there's a whole host of major stars that we talk about on this show all the time that are not a part of this list. Among them, Ryan Gosling, Emma Stone, Jennifer Lawrence, Bradley Cooper, Cate Blanchett, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Reese Witherspoon, Nicole Kidman, Denzel Washington. We could go on. There are many, many other stars who are not a part of this list. So anybody who's out there saying, you guys are star fuckers, you only like Ben Affleck movies and JLO documentaries. I got news for you guys. The Greatest Story Never Told. Not on the list.

[B]

Have you seen that yet?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I will not.

[B]

There's a whole part where Ben Affleck is like, look at all these cameras. And explaining cameras to Jennifer.

[A]

I love Ben. I got mad respect for Ben Town.

[B]

Not on this list.

[A]

Mall Rats, Banger Chasing Amy.

[B]

Not on this list.

[A]

Phantoms. He was the bomb in Phantoms, yo. Like, he's just the man. Okay, let's do the list.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This is where it stands right now. I'm not saying this is where it's going to end. This is where we. What I hammered out and you basically more or less accepted. But now the final, final steps.

[B]

I said, put a pin in it and roll the cameras. Okay, so number. I'm going to start right now because I, like, we have to talk about it and we have to explain it. Okay, so number 25, you have my Michael Clayton.

[A]

I wanted a cool episode to start.

[B]

That's what I was going to explain. I know that. I understand. Like, Jesus Christ. Okay, we're having the meeting, but I know the rules. We're opening up the meeting to everyone else. Yeah. When you make a list, you got to grab people in with something up top that they a want to listen to and are, like, interested in.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And be like, also make them a little mad. So many people, myself included, might recoil at the idea that Michael Clayton is as low as it is is. But I think it's a great kickoff. And I, you know, the right scale and it's. And also George Clooney.

[A]

We don't have to explain Every pick. But I do think these key moments are right. The right ones to explain.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You want to keep going?

[B]

Sure. So 24. We have the Handmaiden, which it seems like maybe you want to change it to Old Boy. You only have a couple weeks.

[A]

I might want to change it.

[B]

And if you change it, does it change the ranking?

[A]

I really like the Handmaiden 2. No, it doesn't. I think this is, like, a good spot for Park Chan Wook. I think it's a good spot for either of these movies. So it's not that big of a deal. I don't know, man. I'm kind of eager to return to the Handmaiden because I haven't seen it in a while. Whereas old boy I have seen recently.

[B]

Have you watched the Park Chan Wook little Drama Girl yet?

[A]

No, I watched the first 23 minutes twice. The first time I tried to watch.

[B]

It, and you were just like, no.

[A]

I just, like, stop making TV shows. It's.

[B]

It's the only exception to just make movies. It's absolutely.

[A]

Just make movies. Let's. Let's leave the handmade in there for now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

After that is Mission Impossible. Fallout, which I feel pretty good about.

[B]

He jumps out of a plane.

[A]

He's thrown through a bathroom mirror.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Very violently.

[B]

I just watched this recently.

[A]

Henry Cavill.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pump, you know, powers up his arms.

[B]

The whole motorcycle thing.

[A]

Yeah. The helicopter fight.

[B]

Pretty good.

[A]

Michelle Monahan.

[B]

Yeah. Very beautiful.

[A]

She's doing stuff.

[B]

Vanessa Kirby.

[A]

Ving Rhames.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Simon Fagg. If we put this movie on the list and we keep it where it is, then that's an acknowledgment of Shaun of the Dead.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is not here.

[B]

That's fine. Do you feel like this is also. This is an acknowledgment of Tom Cruise of franchises in a lot of ways, with one other exception. And I think that is like, that is our shared favorite franchise going, yes.

[A]

Losers like the Fast and the Furious. Winners like Mission Impossible.

[B]

Right. We didn't even discuss Fast Five.

[A]

Nor should we.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. All right, all right.

[A]

I just, you know, just putting it out there. I've got. Something's got to give at 22. Now, is that movie better than Fallout?

[B]

I think we're sort of like. We're doing tears, right?

[A]

No, we're not doing them.

[B]

Okay. I would say it's writing is actually better than. Than Fallout.

[A]

And I made a great choice.

[B]

And Jack Nicholson has to be able to walk up those stairs before he can have sex. You know, and he does it. So it has dramatic action sequences. It does have a sex scene between Jack Nicholson and Diane Keaton.

[A]

I gotta say, sex in your 70s, that sounds challenging. Like, as my body is just totally breaking down in 43.

[B]

It's also got this scene where he's like, I really. I really am. I really. I hope it happens for you. And they have put a lot of medical research dollars behind making sure that that's possible.

[A]

I'm actually not worried.

[B]

Expense of my health generally, so just like me being able to even see a gynecologist, you know, and is. Is. Is under. Under debate. But there are all sorts of medicines to make sure you can have.

[A]

I'm not worried about Ed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm worried about not having functioning limbs. I mean, I might be worried about it then, but.

[B]

Right. Well, that. I mean, that's. He has to be able to make it up the stairs.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because that's when his heart is ready after his heart attack to have sex again. So. But listen, he's got Keanu Reeves, who's a doctor in the Hamptons who believes in him, so maybe we can achieve that for you, too.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

Also, this scene when he's running around in the hospital gown with his ass totally out. Every single time I've worn a hospital gown since then. It's like an enduring image. And then it's also, like, useful for small chat with. You know, like, small talk with.

[A]

This is your case for something's gotta give right now.

[B]

Just like it's influential, you know? Coastal Grandmas. One of Diane Keaton's best performances.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

They go to Paris. I've been to that restaurant in Paris. They have a big sign.

[A]

Just have a sip of water, please.

[B]

I'm out of water.

[A]

That explains your manic 20. 21. The Dark Knight.

[B]

Yeah. Do you want to change it? Keep going, keep going.

[A]

20. The Royal Tenenbaums. I feel good about this. 19. Spirited Away. I feel good about this. 18. E Tu Mama Tambien. I went with this over Children of Men film. Maiden is native Mexico, and thus far.

[B]

We have been pretty genre heavy, so.

[A]

Agreed. And I feel like I kind of jammed those up at the top not to get people interested in this. The opposite, really. More to just be like, this stuff matters. But let's not get too bogged down. It is. We go down the list. You can make the case that a couple of these should be flipped so that it's not so actiony near the top.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Anchorman at 17. Step brothers. Super bad. The other guys no, we're not going.

[B]

To do the other guys. Even though I do like it, I.

[A]

I think Christine, if. Her name is Christine, if. Get my wife's name right. So it's very good.

[B]

Even though my instinct was super bad, I. I do think that your Will Ferrell instinct, I think there's got to be a Will. I. I agree with you.

[A]

I think he is the comic star of this century. You agree?

[B]

Yes, I do. So Seth Brothers is really funny.

[A]

It is very good. Before sunset at 16.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I made a very strong, strong, strong move to put inside lewyn Davis at 15.

[B]

I'm open to it now.

[A]

I thought that this would be the best I could get in terms of meeting in the middle with you, that you wouldn't go a serious man with me, but you would go inside Llewyn Davis.

[B]

I think that's probably right, though. I think that's unfair to me and my generosity of spirit because, oh, for sure. I would, in this one case, let you do whatever Cohen, you wanted because that means something to you. And the way that you're giving me Marie Antoinette because you're just kind of like. You are. That's, like your thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you want to do a.

[A]

Serious man, they don't make movies anymore. It's very disappointing. I mean, I know they're doing them separately, but that's fine.

[B]

I mean, I. I agree.

[A]

You know, Honey don't will be out by the time we've recorded this, which is the new Ethan Cohen movie starring Margaret Qualley, your fave.

[B]

Yeah, I like her. And she's very good at dancing, as we Learned at the 97th annual Academy Awards.

[A]

Completely just instantly dated this conversation, I think. You think?

[B]

I think that listeners of this podcast won't remember the Bond tribute in December and how long that takes.

[A]

I pray I forget. Well, I think Inside Lun Davis is a good pick. Serious man is my favorite. No country for a Man is great. My absolute favorite cones are in the 90s and the 80s. Let's stick with Inside Davis. Wolf of Wall street at 14. Too low, too high.

[B]

I think that it could maybe go. You could flip 14 and 12. And I say that with.

[A]

Oh, fuck, yeah.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. And I say that. I say that with.

[A]

And.

[B]

And honestly, honestly, maybe you could do. Maybe you could put 14 at 11, 11 at 12. 13 stays the same. Do you see what I'm doing here?

[A]

I do 14 at 11, 11 at 12, and 12 at 14.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now. Now we're talking. Okay, now we should be doing screen capture for this this is the real work. Okay, so now coming in at number 14 is Moneyball.

[B]

Yes. Which is one of my favorite films of all time. Do you think that this is the year that we can host a screening of Moneyball? Do you think we did it? It's the end. It's December 2025.

[A]

We've had many very kind programmers over the years ask us to come and program a movie. We've programmed Gone Girl, Phantom Thread. What else? I'm forgetting other movies. We've done a few others. I did a bunch in at the Frida when you were on leaves.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

And every time we say guys would have a Moneyball, they're like, yeah, okay.

[B]

Don't.

[A]

Really. Don't think that's gonna sell. I'm Sean Fennesee.

[B]

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

[A]

And this is 25 for 25, a big picture special conversation show about Moneyball. And how can you not be romantic about bass ball? Moneyball 14. Bennett Miller. No. I thought you were going to ask. Do you think Bennett Miller will make another movie this year?

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Okay. I don't think so either. Number 13's get out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Feels like the right spot.

[B]

It. It feels good. That's why I. That it stayed where it was and we just moved things around it. Yeah.

[A]

Number 12, Melancalia. You've moved from number 11.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because.

[B]

Well, first of all, we had Kiki right. In a row.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Maybe I did that intentionally.

[B]

Well, I do think that the film the Wolf of Wall street is better than Melakalia.

[A]

Should we put a little distance between Melancholia and Marie Antoinette? Should we move Melancholia, like, to number 20 and move the Royal Tenenbaums to 12? Sure.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

I think that's probably accurate, right?

[B]

I like that. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, let's do that. I'm still getting over only having one European filmmaker on this list. And I'm drawing attention to it in part because it just seems a little crazy to me. But we'll figure it out. Figure it out here. Okay. So then number 12 is the Royal Tenenbaum's. Melancholia is a 20. I think that's better.

[B]

Yeah, I do as well.

[A]

Number 10 as you just gave away Marie Antoinette. Is this the right spot?

[B]

I would also be willing to bump Wolf of Wall street to 10 and do. No, no. You think Marie Antoinette stays at 10?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's so beautiful. Look. Look at you supporting women.

[A]

I stand with you every day of the year. I stand with you a hundred Times a year on this fucking podcast, it's.

[B]

More than 100, I'm sorry to say.

[A]

This year it'll be like 130. Number nine is Parasite. Now we're in, like, a really tough spot. I've come covering my face and my mouth.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I'm in a little bit of pain. Maranta 10 is good. That's a cool pick and a smart pick. These next few were very predictable, but they're all worthy. I think they're in the right order, but I could be wrong. Parasite at 9. Mad Max Fury Road at 8. In the Mood for Love at 7. Mulholland Drive at 6. These are all canonical works, a good blend of international and American. They are in genre, but abstract genre at the same time. Social thriller, action epic, yearning, romance, and I guess coming of age from Mulholland Drive.

[B]

I was just gonna say David lynch movie.

[A]

Yeah. Nightmare, which is only its own genre framed as. It's sort of like a gal comes to town, she's trying to make it in the scene.

[B]

Yeah, I. I mean, I'm sitting here trying to, like, be interesting and suggest a more interesting order.

[A]

But your entire job is to be interesting on the mic.

[B]

Thank you so much. But in this particular case, I think. I mean, you could flip Parasite and Mad Max, but I don't think that's good list making.

[A]

I would do it.

[B]

Do you want to?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's a good suggestion.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The tricky thing is, like, you know, a parasite conversation is a portal to a conversation about South Korean cinema in the 21st century.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In the Mood for Love Is a Story is a conversation about Hong Kong cinema. What Wong Kar Wai brings to the table, Mulholland Drive. We know what that conversation is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think this is supportable. I think Mad Max, Fury Road, I think with movies, what is your concern?

[B]

Like, what are you not saying right now?

[A]

There's no right order.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know, when you're doing this, you know, you're at a magazine and you're in the room and you're like, it's not being publicly projected. And you can stand behind the editorial voice of the publication.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

And so your cleverness is rewarded with provocation. And this act is a little different.

[B]

Because you think people are gonna be yelling at you about.

[A]

No, it's because I don't want to inspire provocation at the root.

[B]

Oh, I see.

[A]

I wanna be like, this is how we feel.

[B]

You don't. Okay.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, two things can be true this is how we feel. And I also don't feel that there is a huge difference in greatness between number seven and number eight on this list or number eight and number nine.

[A]

You're probably right. But maybe it's just that I'm slowing down and thinking about it.

[B]

Yeah. I feel that both are masterworks of cinema.

[A]

Let's do Marie Antoinette at 10, Mad Max, Fury Road at nine. Parasite at eight. In the Mood for Love at seven, Mulholland Drive at six. Okay, that leaves us with five.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The order that I've placed these five movies in is as Lady Bird at five, Inglourious Basterds at four with a big fucking asterisk next to it.

[B]

You have just written Once Upon a Time in Hollywood right next to it. It's not even like on a different line or in a comment. It's just like right there.

[A]

There Will be blood at three, 25th hour at two.

[B]

Yeah. Which is a beautiful act of filmmaking. I mean, of list making and also of filmmaking.

[A]

Thank you. That's what I was going for. Obviously. I.

[B]

And I, like. My eyebrows went up and then I was like, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. But not too cute. No.

[B]

Because we both love that movie. The greatest ending of a movie of my fave.

[A]

My fave. And then Social Network at one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is predictable. But I think sometimes that's okay.

[B]

I think sometimes you just. You need to speak the truth, you know?

[A]

Okay. Go back to Tarantino. For me. There are no bad Tarantino movies in the 21st century. There are no mid. No Tarantino movies in the 21st century. Everybody has their favorites. Some people like Django. Some people prefer the grindhouse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Experience. Some people dig Inglourious Basterds. Some people like Kill Bill Volume 2. I popped once upon a time in Hollywood into the old 4K player, like three or four weeks ago just to watch the first 10 minutes.

[B]

Yeah. And then you watched the whole thing.

[A]

I didn't get through the whole thing, but I was like, fuck. I got slipped right into it. And the truth is, I'm being really real with you right now. That doesn't happen to me anymore because I made this my job. It's a little bit like when you hear a beat reporter say, I grew up rooting for the New York Giants and I don't root for a team anymore because I know too much or I experience too much. I've made movies too much of my life. Doesn't mean I don't still love movies. It just means that thing I did all the time from 14 to 30, which is like, I just got to rewatch shit I fucking love. Yeah, I can't really get there with a lot of stuff. And this movie was so easy. Obviously, I love Quentin, Love him personally love him, his movies, all that stuff. That's all understood. And Inglourious Basterds is a diamond. Right. It's like a perfectly constructed masterwork. But I think maybe it would be Once Upon a Time in Hollywood for me.

[B]

Okay, so here's the thing is that I'm sympathetic to what you were saying about. It becomes the more that this becomes our job, the less we have the experience of just watching it to watch. And I think that in a lot of ways, the essential characteristic of all of these movies are they are movies that get us across the hump from annoying podcaster to person who just loves watching movies. And. And, like, they. They are all of that quality. For me, the thing is, is that both Inglourious Basterds and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood are that to me, I think they're both great. I. I don't know whether it's recency anti bias.

[A]

I'm trying to account for this as well.

[B]

I don't. I don't know. I mean, Glorious Basterds is just. It's my favorite Tarantino. I mean, it's just. It's my favorite Tarantino full stop. Like, I just. That is my pick.

[A]

That's always my pick over Pulp Fiction. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, well, listen, I wasn't allowed to see Pulp Fiction when it came out in 1994 because I was 10, so you come to it later.

[A]

That sucks. That's tough.

[B]

Listen, every day I'm persevering, you know, Every day.

[A]

You're so brave.

[B]

I'm doing the work, but so I just. Inglorious Basterds. I remember seeing it.

[A]

It's okay. You can. We'll keep Inglourious Bastards. I just want it to be on the record that I agonized over this.

[B]

Well, we have time, because that. At number three.

[A]

At number three on the list. Yeah.

[B]

It'll be a December recording, so if.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, you're right about that.

[B]

I'm not trying to.

[A]

It's number four, but yeah.

[B]

Oh, it is.

[A]

And this is an interesting thing.

[B]

So you can also do the master.

[A]

And in my mind, these people are engaged in a death struggle for primacy in my heart.

[B]

By these people, you mean Quentin Tarantino, Paul Thomas Anderson, Spike Lee, and David Fincher.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I would say. And so is the list too Schematic And, or, and answer me honestly, me leaning by doing that.

[B]

No, because.

[A]

And I'm not saying you don't like any of those filmmakers. I know you love them, but those are kind of the four that I have organized a lot of my movie admiration around and probably switched me on to a ton of stuff over the years.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, so at 5, we have Greta Gerwig. At 10, we have Sofia Coppola. Those are two of my three. We've got Nancy Meyers on the list. We, you know, I think there was there. And I'm not, I'm not trying to reduce myself to, like, well, I like the girls, you know, but.

[A]

No, but I like them too. And Greta and Sophia would have been on my list. I don't know if it would have been these movies specifically, but they both would have been on my list if I just made it by myself.

[B]

The thing is, is that Fincher, especially Fincher and Tarantino and, well, like Spike Lee, like, I love these movies, like, these specific movies, and that's why I'm arguing for Inglorious Bastards instead of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I like, I love all Tarantino movies. Not in the same way that you do, but where I meet you is at these specific movies. So it's okay with me.

[A]

I'll, I'll roll with you on Inglourious Bastards. There Will be blood at 3, 25th hour, 2 in the social network at 1.

[B]

Are you being a cuck by not choosing the Master?

[A]

No, I don't think so because I just don't think it's superior.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I, I, I don't either.

[B]

Perfect objects. No, I know.

[A]

Exist in different lights.

[B]

I'm asking you, you know.

[A]

No, I, I think the Master would be a really cool pick, and it would be an acknowledgment of Philip Seymour Hoffman and what he means to the century in movies. But There Will Be Blood. I've now done multiple podcasts about the movie and written long pieces and interviewed PTA multiple times. And every time it's come up, it's back in the news with the brutalist. So many of the things.

[B]

So is the Master True, true, true. That's fine. We, we got to talk about the things that I. That aren't on this list that I maybe can't live with.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There's no Soderbergh on this list. Now, you could argue that if out of Sight were eligible or the limey were eligible, then he would be on the list.

[A]

This is my thing.

[B]

But that seems really, really Stupid for one of the signature filmmakers of. I mean, there's also no Spielberg on this list. So, like, what are we doing? You know? If there's no Spielberg, then they operate.

[A]

In similar spaces to me where their best stuff just wasn't at this time.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It doesn't mean that their stuff that they made at this time wasn't great, because it was great. There's a case for the Fabelmans straight up. Sure, there is a case for it. We don't have a lot of old master reflecting back on what he hath wrought. There's not. That's not really a conceit of this list. And I'm fine with that.

[B]

No bound back.

[A]

I'm okay with that. As I said, I know Lady Bird. He's not credited in any way, but there's some vibe.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It's a hard miss for us, but I think it's a Ms. Francis. How was in my. Like, I can't believe we're not doing this right. It wasn't.

[B]

Yes. No. Tree of Life.

[A]

I don't know if I can rationalize that one to myself.

[B]

Okay, so what would you take away?

[A]

The Dark Knight.

[B]

Ooh, you are courting the anger of a lot of people. It's fine with me. I don't care.

[A]

I just think my sordid history with Nolan Stands makes this a little bit annoying. But, like, I don't know. The Tree of Life is better than the Dark Knight. What are we doing here?

[B]

Yeah, no, it is.

[A]

Bobby, any thoughts?

[C]

I mean, my feeling since I saw the Dark Knight on this list is that that Oppenheimer should be the entry for Nolan if there is gonna be.

[A]

One, because it's that over the line with our partner in crime here.

[C]

I know. I get that. So I don't feel as sensitive to the idea of removing the Dark Knight because I think it's like Nolan's third best movie this century.

[B]

Are you an interstellar bro?

[C]

No, I'm decidedly anti interstellar. And I have caught a lot of shit for it over the years, but have stuck to that opinion. I even went and saw it in the IMAX re release and I still feel the same.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't hate interstellar. I just am not as over the moon for it, pardon the pun, as so many other people.

[B]

Listen, that's fine with me.

[A]

I'm doing it.

[B]

Okay. Maybe I feel like Tree of Life Melancholio in a row is sort of intense.

[A]

So tough set.

[B]

Yeah. We want to.

[A]

Let's do some finessing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The Tree of Life can come after Anchorman.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And here's what I'm gonna. I'm gonna do some magic. Tree of Life. What year is that movie?

[B]

2000, 2010 or 11 or something.

[A]

Oh, 2010. I think you're right. Yeah. Tree of Life is 2011.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Same year as Melancholia. Similar themes in reverse. Tree of Life is going to go at 16 before sunset is going to go to 18. Yi Tu Mama Tambien is going to go to 23.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Mission Impossible Fallout is going to go to 21.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I think there's balance there. How do you feel about Melancholia, Spirited Away, in Before Sunset, in a row. That we need some variation.

[B]

Well, how do you feel about something that's got to give? Mission Impossible, Fallout, Melancholy, A Spirited Away, Before Sunset, all in a row.

[A]

Cool movies.

[B]

I mean, great movies.

[A]

Those are all cool movies. And they're all different. They all elicit a different kind of conversation. I think Melancholia and Spirited Away are a little bit vibes wise. The same.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The Spirited Away pod will be fascinating.

[B]

Do you want to flip? No, I think that's good. I mean, you could flip Before Sunset and Spirited Away, but is the Handmaiden.

[A]

And it's too sex forward at the bottom.

[B]

And then something's got to give.

[A]

That's right. Sex abounds.

[B]

Sex Month and then Mission Impossible, which has absolutely no sex whatsoever.

[A]

But Vanessa Kirby in that leg reveal, you know, in the garter.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That's great stuff. She got a knife in there.

[C]

If we're losing the Dark Knight when you were concerned about it being too action heavy, are you interested in swapping out Oldboy for the Handmaiden now?

[A]

Oh.

[C]

To break it. Not that I want to break up the sex run necessarily.

[A]

I would like to leave the Handmaiden. I think. I think that's a very good idea. And I might change my mind when I rewatch the Handmaiden to prepare for the episode.

[C]

I'm just here to support you guys, you know.

[B]

What about remind you I'm gonna. I'm gonna. Now that. Now that it's changed and now that we've gotten rid of the Dark Knight, Children of Men.

[A]

Aha.

[B]

Aha.

[A]

I. Let's do it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. Children of Men. Now we don't have to worry about the Children of Men being a less good movie than. Something's gotta Give in the immediate is very funny. It's just a good bit. What's children 2008? Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yep. This feels for now for now, for.

[B]

Now, you feel okay.

[A]

Right. There will be the. The Nolan kids.

[B]

It's on you.

[A]

What do you mean, it's on me?

[B]

I just. I'm. I'm happy. I'm.

[A]

You're one half of this selection process, which is coming to a conclusion right now.

[B]

Yeah. But it won't keep me up at night. The thing about the Dark Knight.

[A]

You won't let us put Oppenheimer on this. That's really the issue.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I think the best movie he's made this season.

[B]

The thing about the Dark Knight that I was about to say that also applies to Oppenheimer, is that it's one of the great movies that you've ever seen. And then it keeps going for 90 minutes.

[A]

So you did that bit. We know that bit well.

[B]

It's true of Dark Knight, too.

[A]

Dark Knight goes on for another 25 minutes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, my. I've said that many times before, but if they would have just cut when Heath has got his head hanging out the window, I would have been like, holy fuck, this is the best movie of all time. Okay. Let's just hold it there. But we're going to make some more changes. I know it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, in the process, I'm going to wake up one morning, I'm going to shoot out of bed stock still.

[B]

Do we get to do an addendum to this in December, like, right now? We what?

[C]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you.

[B]

Yeah. So we can just come in and change things. Okay. Here's what we did.

[A]

Michael Clayton's not changing. That's not changing. I want to do that.

[B]

I love Michael Clayton.

[A]

I want. I'm ready to watch it, like, tomorrow. I'm not changing that.

[B]

We got to talk about.

[A]

We're recording these, like, now.

[B]

Yeah. I think that this is a great first ten.

[A]

Okay. Let's just stop here. Bob, thanks for this inspiration to have this conversation in public. I think it was very civil.

[B]

Yeah, it was nice.

[A]

I think we did a lot of work ahead of time to get us to this place, but now maybe I feel even less confident than I did previously.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I like the changes that we made together.

[B]

I enjoyed this process, and I feel confident, and I'm not too worried about what anyone else thinks.

[A]

I'm extremely happy for you.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm excited to rewatch all these movies, so that's nice.

[A]

And this list will have already been torn to pieces by the time this airs, so I don't even care. It doesn't even matter what I say now you will know about it. I'll forward you all the emails. Thanks to Bobby Wagner for his help on this episode. He's our producer. Thanks to Gahao for filling in for Jack Sanders, who when he returns, will have to deal with recording 25 of these episodes with us. Thanks to the listeners at home for being so cool about this project. Just being very open minded and thoughtful and really engaging and making your own lists and sharing them in good faith and good honor. Thanks to you, Amanda. In theory, at this time, it's about to be 2026. You think that will be a great year?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hope so. We, like, we need, we need to turn things up.

[A]

It is a good year. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, see you next time.