‘The Electric State’ Is a Netflix Nightmare. Plus, 10 (Better) Movies We Missed.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture – Episode: ‘The Electric State’ Is a Netflix Nightmare. Plus, 10 (Better) Movies We Missed

Release Date: March 17, 2025
Host/Authors: Sean Fennessey & Amanda Dobbins
Guests: Chris Ryan, Van Lathan, Bill Simmons, Mark Anthony Green

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The Big Picture, hosts Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins delve into the underperformance and critical reception of Netflix's latest blockbuster, 'The Electric State', while also highlighting ten other noteworthy films that flew under the radar. The episode features insightful commentary from industry colleagues and includes a special interview with filmmaker Mark Anthony Green, director of his debut feature film, 'Opus'.

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2. The Electric State: A Netflix Nightmare

Sean Fennessey initiates the discussion with a scathing critique of 'The Electric State', a high-budget Netflix release helmed by the Russo brothers. The hosts express disappointment over the film's execution and its exclusive streaming release, arguing that it represents the decline of the traditional theatrical experience.

• Plot Overview: The movie follows a teenage girl, played by Millie Bobby Brown, navigating a post-robotic civil war society to find her missing brother, assisted by Chris Pratt's character and voiced by notable actors like Woody Harrelson and Anthony Mackie.

• Critical Reception:

  • Sean Fennessey (03:19): "It's one of the worst movies of the year. It's one of the worst movies of the decade."
  • Amanda Dobbins (04:38): "It is catastrophically bad. And a lot of ways, it's a concentration of everything that is wrong with current, like, big-budget studio filmmaking."

• Marketing and Distribution Concerns: The hosts discuss Netflix's strategy of releasing tentpole films exclusively on their platform, bypassing traditional theatrical releases. They argue that this undermines the communal experience of movie-watching and hampers box office success.

  • Sean Fennessey (12:10): "We do have a very busy show. But then you're into it. I don't know. It's got a lot going on."

3. Box Office Trends and Theatrical Window

The conversation transitions to broader box office trends, highlighting the diminishing returns of traditional releases and the rapid shift to Video on Demand (VOD).

• Low Box Office Numbers:

  • Sean Fennessey (10:15): "The number one film in America only made $8.7 million. That's very low for the number one film in America."

• Impact on Mid-Budget and Original Films: The hosts lament the struggles of original and mid-budget films to compete with high-budget tentpole releases and streaming exclusives.

  • Mark Anthony Green (13:35): "Even though they're, you could say some of them are like a little bit derivative, they're still original stories and no one showed up."

4. Highlights of Underrated Films

The hosts spotlight several films that didn't receive the attention they deserved:

a. Black Bag

Aimed at older audiences, this film struggles to find its audience until it hits streaming platforms, echoing the challenges faced by 'The Electric State'.

• Sean Fennessey (12:25): "Black Bag is an interesting example of this because this is a film, I think, that is meant for older audiences."

b. Novocaine

Discussed as a potential success on VOD despite lackluster theatrical performance.

• Sean Fennessey (34:57): "Novocaine made like $18 million, which is... well, you saw it."

c. Last Breath

A thriller with strong performances but criticized for its pacing and direction.

• Amanda Dobbins (57:07): "It's like Apollo 13 underwater without, you know, bigger ideas or Ron Howard's budget."

d. The Monkey

A horror-comedy revolving around a drumming toy monkey that causes chaos each time it performs.

• Mark Anthony Green (62:59): "Every time Knox drums, someone in the world is killed."

e. EEPhas

Described as a charming slice-of-life film focused on amateur baseball.

• Sean Fennessey (65:07): "If you love baseball or if you love a kind of dream descent into weirdness, I do think you will vibe with EEPhas."

f. Becoming Led Zeppelin

An IMAX documentary featuring performances by the surviving members of Led Zeppelin, praised for its musical authenticity.

• Amanda Dobbins (69:02): "It's a very pro forma doc, but it's a great music experience."

g. Chaos: The Manson Murders

An Errol Morris documentary critiqued for its flat execution despite the compelling source material.

• Sean Fennessey (71:56): "I saw Chaos: The Manson Murders and thought it was pretty flat."

h. The Actor

A film starring Andre Holland, noted for its dreamlike and disorienting narrative structure.

• Sean Fennessey (74:36): "It's a very exciting premise, but the dream-like execution made it hard to connect with."

i. Last Breath

A tense survival film set in the treacherous Gorge, praised for its intense performances.

• Sean Fennessey (57:07): "I loved it. It was a great setup but fell apart once inside the gorge."

j. The Great Gatsby

Not discussed in the provided transcript but likely included in the top movies they missed based on the episode's title.

5. Interview with Mark Anthony Green: Insights into 'Opus'

A significant portion of the episode features an in-depth conversation with Mark Anthony Green, the writer and director of 'Opus', discussing his journey from journalism to filmmaking.

• First Meeting with John Malkovich:

  • Mark Anthony Green (81:17): "I met John Malkovich in Riga, Latvia. He was wearing an eye patch due to emergency surgery, and despite the challenging circumstances, he became an invaluable creative partner on set."

• Filmmaking Philosophy:

  • Green emphasizes the importance of balancing humor and seriousness, inspired by Japanese horror films for their commitment to their visions.
  • Mark Anthony Green (85:25): "I set out to make a challenging film. Opus is about tribalism and the global pandemic of tribalism."

• Production Challenges:

  • Green discusses the difficulties of funding independent films, especially when involving high-profile actors like John Malkovich, and his commitment to maintaining creative control despite budget constraints.

  • Mark Anthony Green (99:00): "I believe in this movie. It's my favorite thing."

• Response to Criticism:

  • Green expresses resilience in the face of mixed reviews, focusing on the film's ability to challenge audiences and provoke thought rather than seeking universal acclaim.

  • Mark Anthony Green (117:57): "The film slaps. It's what we're here for. We love original films and when people take swings and make interesting things."

6. Filmmaking and Industry Reflections

The hosts and guest discuss the evolving landscape of filmmaking, especially the shift towards streaming services and the impact on independent and original films.

• Loss of Theatrical Experience:

  • Sean Fennessey (12:24): "90% of people in America are like, I really want to see this. I just don't have time this weekend. That should be an allowable thing to happen."

• Financial Viability of Independent Films:

  • Mark Anthony Green (128:16): Emphasizes the need for governmental support and grants for filmmakers to sustain their work without compromising creative integrity.

• The Role of Criticism:

  • The conversation touches on the delicate relationship between filmmakers and critics, with Green advocating for directors to remain steadfast in their vision despite negative reviews.

7. Concluding Remarks and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with the hosts encouraging listeners to support original and independent films, reflecting on the importance of diverse storytelling in cinema.

• Sean Fennessey (136:05): "This could be the first shot in the Oscar campaign against the Odyssey, which is no doubt coming later this week."

• Mark Anthony Green (135:47): "Opus is a film about processing death and the suddenness of death. It invites audiences to engage in the cinematic experience with a strong point of view."

The hosts extend their congratulations to Mark Anthony Green and tease upcoming segments, maintaining an engaging and conversational tone throughout the episode.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sean Fennessey

  • [03:19]: "It's one of the worst movies of the year. It's one of the worst movies of the decade."
  • [10:15]: "The number one film in America only made $8.7 million. That's very low for the number one film in America."
  • [12:10]: "We do have a very busy show. But then you're into it. I don't know. It's got a lot going on."

• Amanda Dobbins

  • [04:38]: "It is catastrophically bad. And in a lot of ways, as we were discussing at a child's birthday party yesterday, like, it is a concentration of everything that is wrong with current, like, big-budget studio filmmaking."
  • [57:07]: "It's like Apollo 13 underwater without, you know, bigger ideas or Ron Howard's budget."

• Mark Anthony Green

  • [85:25]: "I set out to make a challenging film. Opus is about tribalism and the global pandemic of tribalism."
  • [117:57]: "The film slaps. It's what we're here for. We love original films and when people take swings and make interesting things."

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Big Picture provides a critical examination of current trends in the film industry, particularly the dominance of streaming giants like Netflix and their impact on traditional cinema. Through vigorous discussions and an insightful interview with Mark Anthony Green, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the challenges facing original and independent filmmakers today. The hosts advocate for continued support of diverse storytelling and the preservation of the communal movie-watching experience amidst an evolving digital landscape.

Transcript

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

When you hear the word Seattle supersonics, what comes to mind? Maybe it's Shawn Kemp the Rain man.

[Sean Fennessey]

Or Gary Payton the glove.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Or maybe an image of a tall and skinny 19 year old rookie, Kevin Durant. For fans in Seattle, it's something else. It's tragedy. It's theft.

[Sean Fennessey]

An iconic team with an incredible fan.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Base that packed its bags and shipped.

[Sean Fennessey]

Off for Oklahoma City.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

From Spotify and the Ringer, I'm Jordan.

[Sean Fennessey]

Ritter Khan and in my podcast Sonic Boom, I talk to players, politicians, owners and fans about how Seattle lost the Sonics. You can listen to it on the.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Book of Basketball feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sean Fennessey]

This episode is presented by Audi. The all new fully electric Audi Q6E Tron is a huge leap forward featuring effortless power, serious acceleration and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever. Experience technology that puts you center stage with a panoramic digital stage plus an optional screen for front seat passengers so they can kick back with a movie. The Q6E Tron is not just a new EV, it's a new way to experience driving. Learn [e-mail] always pay careful attention to the road and do not drive while distracted.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

This episode is brought to you by Hookah. I've got to talk to you guys about the Bandai 9, the new daily trainer. From a hookah, the Bondi 9 delivers.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Peak plushness for everyday miles.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Overhauled from top to bottom, they've increased the stack height and added a new premium foam midsole to deliver that soft.

[Mark Anthony Green]

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[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And look, I walk a lot. I walk all around la. You need good shoes for that.

[Mark Anthony Green]

These are perfect. Everybody Bondi.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Visit hooka.com H O-K-A.com to learn more.

[Mark Anthony Green]

About the Bondi 9.

[Sean Fennessey]

Foreign I'm Sean Fennesee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Big Picture, a conversation show about the electric state and 10 movies that we missed. Later in this episode I'll be joined by Mark Anthony Green, the writer, director of the new film Opus and one of my oldest friends. We talked about his long road to making his directorial debut and the inspirations for his IO Edebiri John Malkovich horror film mag. Real smart, charismatic guy. I hope you will stick around for our conversation. Joining us now, Chris Ryan. Chris, I have something to share with you.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Hit me.

[Sean Fennessey]

Programming reminder for you, a listener of the Big Picture.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

This week we begin 25 for 25.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Do you think I only have it marked Down.

[Sean Fennessey]

You do?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, I'm already ready. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're holding space to listen to the first episode.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I've told my wife not to speak to me for at least 24 hours after the release of this podcast.

[Sean Fennessey]

How many times will you listen to that episode?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Four or five.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you very much.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Different speeds to hear different textures.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, thank you.

[Sean Fennessey]

We've already recorded the episode.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Bought an Audi already. You know, you're fucking influencing me.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a roughly bi monthly series we're doing on the show through the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

End of the year, every two weeks or every other month.

[Sean Fennessey]

It has two definitions. I'm glad you asked. It is going to be every two weeks.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, it makes sense.

[Sean Fennessey]

More or less. With nine months to go in the.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Year, you have to kind of let the movie world tell you what you are and are not allowed to do. Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm ready to spoil for you right now what number 25 is. It's the Electric State, the new film from the Russo brothers. Are you excited about that?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, I am, honestly.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just kidding. It's not. We'll get to the. The Russos and the Electric State momentarily.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Are you guys opening 25 for 25 to more people than the two of you? Like, it'll just be the two of you. It'll be.

[Amanda Dobbins]

In fact. So we recently recorded, like, a selection committee episode.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Nixon.

[Mark Anthony Green]

By the way.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We all know that we recorded a selection committee episode, that it's going to come out in December after the list has been revealed. But it was us, like, working through the list in real time.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like, with the dock open. I believe Bobby was, like, recording. Is that an earthquake?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's construction outside.

[Amanda Dobbins]

All right, well, it's a construction and not an earthquake. Okay. I just didn't know whether I needed to, like, what would we do in this room?

[Sean Fennessey]

Die?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Go over that way?

[Sean Fennessey]

The lights would fall on our heads.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Sock to diet.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Like, not ideal.

[Sean Fennessey]

Really not ideal.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Not an earthquake. So we made the list live, and at some point, I suggested that maybe, like, you could come in and give your commentary. And Sean was like, no, absolutely not. Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nothing offense, you know, nothing.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Lots of outlets for my opinions.

[Sean Fennessey]

Are you guys not doing a 25 thing for the watch?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I don't know if Andy's seen 25 television shows. No, I'm just kidding. I think TV is harder. I've thought about this a lot when it comes to doing historical retrospectives because you just have to put so many hours up. So, like, an individual rewatch would be really fun, but acting as if, like, we have all of lost at our fingertips at all times. Is very difficult for.

[Sean Fennessey]

I see. So lioness number one look.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I mean, that's what's freshest in my mind. And it's probably the most relevant show in the world right now because it's.

[Sean Fennessey]

How you feel about our foreign policy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, boy.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Do you want me to talk to you about the Odyssey?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Or do. Are we on a clock? Like, when should we do the Odyssey talk?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, honestly, whenever you want. I'm waiting for you to schedule a. Like, it's the Odyssey, our time, not, like, in the middle of another episode.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Is that I. I wanted this to be a thing, you know, I wanted Odyssey updates.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And now I'm being served. Odyssey updates all the time. And on Reddit, on Reddit, on Instagram, on Twitter, there's several Christopher Nolan, like, updates. Twitter accounts that are just like, here' a picture of, like, the weather.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So, like, are you following them?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, so you're not, like, really being served. It.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's like, sought it out in the first place.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You know, and then that. I was. I was a weak man, and I clicked follow. And so what do you need to weather in Greece?

[Sean Fennessey]

You got to. You need to reset your mentality on this.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

So the problem is, is I need.

[Sean Fennessey]

To be David Muir. You need to be Nicholas Kristoff. Like, you need to get on the ground, you need to get your gear, and you need to record after you witness the moment. You can't be like, oh, I got served on social media. No, this is the oddest thing.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

So you want me to go to Greece?

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not saying that I will come with you. I will happily stay here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Here we go.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think if you want to do the work, you come in whenever the news breaks.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

All right. You know, I missed the opportunity to talk about Matt Damon and John Bernthal arriving at the airport, which was, like, my favorite moment of the year so far. Bernthal's hair. Incredible.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did he shave his head?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He shaved his head, kept the beard.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And we learned who he's playing. Who is he playing?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He's playing Telemachus, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think that's right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Agamemnon's Safdie, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Agamemnon is Benny Safdie.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Learned this down before started rolling. Okay. Oh, okay. Exciting. Let's see. No, this is.

[Sean Fennessey]

I really was hoping for more from the cr. I really. I feel like we need. We got to get some more prep for you. We got to figure out what the layout is on this?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Well, I kind of anticipated you being like, no, we have a very busy show today. We do have a very busy show.

[Sean Fennessey]

But then you into it. I don't know. It's got a lot going on.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Cast of characters. Okay. Cast, characters, movie. This is harder to Google than I want it to be. Also, I just like this.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have what seems like an unreliable report from comicbookmovie.com.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Are you guys with me?

[Sean Fennessey]

Spread okay with me spreading that info?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, please.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sorry, I just clicked on the IMDb hold on. I just clicked on the IMDb page and the writers are Homer and Christopher Nolan. So that's pretty good.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's good shit right there. Thanks to her. Christopher Nolan's great work. Tom Holland will reportedly play Odysseus's son, Telemachus.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

That's right, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Zendaya will be Athena. Charlize Theron as Cersei.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Anne Hathaway as Penelope. Benny Safdie as Agamemnon. Lupita will be Clytemon. Clytemnestra. Clytemnestra.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Clytemnestra.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Clytemnestra.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, that's exciting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Never said that out loud, but that's all we got so far.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay, I. I will do more research.

[Sean Fennessey]

And again, this is not reliable.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

The reason why I brought this sound stuff was this movie is still 15 months away from being in our theaters. Is. Is it possible to overexpose a film before that? You know what I mean? Like, is it. Should I stay away from the updates because I'm so excited about the movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, that's something you've talked about in the past with not wanting to watch trailers and things like that. So this is going against, I think, some of your. I mean, for me, I love to hear an update about what's going on with the production.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, but you don't, because I don't think you've really enjoyed this one battle after another process. I don't think you've enjoyed the budget speculation. I don't think you want to see Vegas reactions, do you? Don't you want that fresh PTA trailer?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's not the life I chose for myself, and I have to be okay with that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, I'm just trying to figure out who Burnthal could be in the. So I'm just, you know, reading things.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you start reading the Odyssey from page one?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, but I did. I am on the Wikipedia page. I'm also kind of stuck on. I'm just hearing Anne Hathaway as Penelope right now.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's an inspired choice.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You think it's good?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know whether that's exactly.

[Sean Fennessey]

I could imagine a long journey returning home to her.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right. That's excellent casting, in my opinion.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. I'm. I'm going to sit on that for a bit.

[Sean Fennessey]

And here's what you need to do. You got to bring more to the table than Christopher Nolan. Arts and updates x.com youm need me.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

To do firsthand reporting.

[Sean Fennessey]

You need to do something. Well, not necessarily interpretive work.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Analysis of what we're learning.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay, I'll do. I'll do. Next time. I'll be better prepared.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Odyssey R is an important product on this show for the next 18 months. Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And you don't have to wait for studio time. You know, you can just, like, FaceTime right in, you know?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Voice notes. Voice notes. In the middle of the night, you've awoken to learn that some news has broken.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Will there still be movie theaters when this movie comes out?

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm glad you brought that up. Not the best weekend at the box office. No, I'm not going to do what you all think I'm going to do.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I don't think you will, which is just freak out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's early March.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not going to do that.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's fine.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's early March.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

St. John's was playing.

[Sean Fennessey]

St. John's is a two seed in March Madness. I'm not going to pretend like I've been closely watching St. John's for the last 20 years, let alone for the last three months. But as a kid who went to several games at Alumni hall as a teenager, this is a great time for St. John's fans, and I acknowledge that. Rick Pitino, complicated figure, great coach. Does that mean anything to you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, but. I mean, but it's like one of the guys in suits, you know, with the hairs that I had. Who's the other guy? Bang?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, Mike Breen or Jay Wright.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, Jay Wright, but also Mike. I know that Mike Breen is the other Bang guy. And then if you are really good, you get a double bang.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Jay Wright retired. His. His replacement was just let go from.

[Sean Fennessey]

Villanova, but all of his children play for my New York Knicks, which is wonderful. Okay, that's great. The box office, not good. $52 million across all releases. There were five new wide releases this weekend. Novocain came in at number one. We'll get to that momentarily. $8.7 million. That's very low for the number one film in America. Yeah, the box office. Here's the thing. The thing I want to talk to you guys about is something that we mentioned when Sean Baker gave his speech at the Academy Awards and also at the DGAs, which is about the theatrical window and the sense that, like Cats out of the Bag officially like words out to the common person, that if you don't go to the movies in the first weekend, your movie's probably coming. The movie's probably gonna be on VOD within two or three weeks.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Mickey 17 being the obvious.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mickey 17 is coming to VOD according to Warner Brothers. March 25th. That's 17 days after it was released. We talked about Black Bag on Friday on the show. Did you see it over the weekend?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I have not got a chance to see it yet.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, you'll be able to see it on VOD probably in 10 days.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I'm not going to do that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Also, you're the problem.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I. I had a lot of social obligations and TV work to do this weekend.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. All right.

[Sean Fennessey]

But you know, nevertheless, most movies that are not Odyssey sized events, people are just going to wait. And that's how this is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Now, this is the point is that 90% of people in America are like, I really want to see this. I just don't have time this weekend. That should be an allowable thing to happen. Absolutely.

[Sean Fennessey]

Part of the reason why I was.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I have like a month and a half to see this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

So Black Bag is an interesting example of this because this is a film, I think, that is meant for older audiences. You know, by older I mean somewhere between 35 and 100.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

And most of those people were not even aware of it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And they'll probably become aware of it when it hits a streaming service. And so people don't watch TV the way that they used to. Viral marketing doesn't really apply for adult movies. It's very cool that Steven Soderbergh got $50 million to make a movie like this, but I don't even know how you could expect a movie like this to make a ton of money now. Maybe it will be a huge hit on vod. Tom Quinn noted, I think on the Town podcast that Anora made eight figures in VOD profits, which is obviously best picture winner, much buzzed about movie. But that's still a lot of money. We don't have any transparency in any of that stuff, so it's hard to know what it's making up for. But I don't think as long as Hollywood is run by people who are more worried about the short term, that is saving their jobs than the long term, which is preserving a certain theatrical movie going experience that like, I don't think this can ever. Is ever gonna change.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, well, you'll have your good times and bad times.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Right?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Like, you're gonna have weeks like this where I think the disappointing part about it is Novocaine black bag and Mickey 17. And I say this is part of the problem because obviously I haven't gone to the movies in 10 days or whatever, but, like, I do watch a lot of stuff. Those are three original films, which is the thing that we're craving. Even though they're, you could say some of them are like a little bit derivative, they're still original stories and. And nobody showed up.

[Sean Fennessey]

Any thoughts?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it does almost feel at this point like there was a collective understanding between the studios of like, okay, we don't really have confidence in any of these movies, so we're just gonna put them all on on the same day and just like write it off as one big loss, you know, because now we understand our business cycle in either in terms of either it's the Odyssey, it's a huge event movie, or it's IP franchise, or it's something that's gonna put a lot of butts in theaters or like, this is loss leader weekend for our VOD and streaming business. And so we're doing like the marketing now. So you'll watch it in two weeks.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You're touching on something that I've been noting, which is like, you know, obviously, and we do it here, we do it at the ringer a lot. Is that kind of pocket watching about how much movies cost, whether movies are in the black, whether movies like, were disasters or like this administration at Warner's or this administration at Disney is in trouble for the way that they've shepherded their projects. I think that they just need to do a much better job. I think the PVOD thing could start to become the, like, it'll have a second life on video of our era if they did a better job communicating what you said about Anora, you know, and that this movie actually was profitable or was. It was great to have it in the theaters for such a long run. Obviously the Oscars gave it a bump, but for the most part, people were spending 20 bucks to watch it at home. And yeah, it would have been better if they had gone and seen it at a. At a theater and, and seen it collectively as Sean Baker intended and I'm sure Steven Soderbergh intended and I'm sure Bong intended, but if you can get to that point of like. Yeah, but it did really well once people were able to just click buy. I think that that would change the narrative a little bit. Or do you think that that's just.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like it benefits the winners and hurts the losers? You know, the movies that didn't succeed in theaters and also don't succeed on pvod, how do we characterize that? Once they introduce transparency, which I don't think they ever will in this format, but once they introduce it, then you'll be like, wow, not only did this movie only make $5 million at the box office, it only made $800,000 in PVOD purchases. So if I were the studios, I wouldn't want to release that information. This, like our demand for data benefits us as ostensibly journalists or at least observers of cultural information. For them, you know, it's just, it's bottom line oriented and a little bit more mystery here allows them to kind of shift the playing field as they want. Like 17 days might ultimately go back up to 50 days or 60 days, or it could also go down to seven days. You know, like this could. This is going to evolve over time. It feels like Warner Brothers and Universal in particular have kind of settled on this two and a half week model. And you know, by all accounts that we. That are shared with us, it worked really well for Universal on a number of movies over time. If everyone starts doing that, I wonder what effect that has. You know, like once Sony signs up for this once, you know, neon and a 24 sign up for this once Disney signs up for this. That would really be the final domino in this equation. Disney, even now, they make you wait for Disney.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And like moana2 just went on Disney that came out in November.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Brave New World will be pvod before it goes to Disney. Right? For sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, probably soon.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And that movie is like clawing its way to something.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's going to get barely to 400 million, which is not good in the, in the context of Marvel movies, that's very low. It's not an out and out disaster like the Marvel's was, but it's pretty bad. Yeah, but you know, a 24 produced thunderbolts, so we got that going for us. Yeah. It's not a mistake to me at all that this is the weekend that the Electric State was released. And in theory, a lot of the time that people would devote to watching movies or going to a movie theater could have been spent watching this movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I'm the problem it's me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You watched it. You watched it. And I watched it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I watched it because I have this job, but I guess there are people out there.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I watched it. Cause I was on this pod and I wanted to talk about it. And I'm, you know, the Russos are my. Are my arch nemesis.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But that two hours I would have spent at black back probably on Sunday.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is the latest in a long line of mega tentpole streaming only Netflix movies. It's the latest movie from the Russos, who of course made four Marvel films and are going to make the next two Avengers movies. It's not an original story. It's based on the illustrated novel the Electric State by Simon Stalinhag. That illustrated novel was crowdfunded, which I thought was fascinating, because there couldn't be anything less crowdfunded than the Electric State, the movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Did everybody who crowdfunded it get a piece of the 320? Is that why it cost so much?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think that's how that worked. The movie stars Millie Bobby Brown, Chris Pratt, Kiwi Kwan, Jason Alexander, the voice of Woody Harrelson, the voice of Anthony Mackie, the voice of Brian Cox, the voice of Jenny Slate, Giancarlo Esposito and Stanley Tucci.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Giancarlo Esposito playing the Butcher of Schenectady.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Your old title. The movie is about. What's it about? It's about a teenage girl.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I want you to do this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Because I was really paying very close attention when I watched it too. I definitely was not multitasking or watching some of it with my 3 year old who loved it. I mean, he was like, what's that yellow robot doing? Where are they going? What are they doing now? What are they doing now?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Then they've already won.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Okay, so Millie Bobby Brown is a teenager and named no idea Michelle. And it's 1994.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

1990 in the beginning of the film.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I. I'm starting. Let me do it my way.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I just didn't know if you were starting before or after the robot war.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was getting there. Would you just hill out? It is 1994 and we are living in a post civil war society. The war being between the humans and the robots. And Millie Bobby Brown is blonde now, but before the war, she had dark hair and she had a little brother.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Named Chris who she.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, his name is Chris. Yeah. Who she loved a lot.

[Mark Anthony Green]

And little guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Little guy Chris.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I don't. And I don't think their parents are around Anymore.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

They are. They died in a car accident and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right. Because the robots didn't. She didn't lose her family to the robots. She lost her family to a car accident, ironically.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And so she. Now it's 1994, and she's really blonde and wearing eyeliner, and she's pissed off, and then she. Okay, so somehow the yellow robot finds her.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's visited by a yellow robot.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The yellow robot finds her, and that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Robot is a representation of her brother's favorite TV character.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, okay. And also turns out to be piloted or inhabited. Or if you want to get into robot consciousness, that's your choice. By her brother, who, it turns out, is alive and somewhere and is, like.

[Sean Fennessey]

Powering the robot and trying to lead her back to him.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He was on here. We know he's in Seattle.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Just FYI.

[Sean Fennessey]

And so, great note.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But also, robots, because they lost the robot war, are, like, illegal.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But the survivors of the robot war live in Arizona.

[Sean Fennessey]

They've been sent to the exclusion zone.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which I. Which, like, I thought was, like, you know, is references to internment camps, and I just thought was wildly offensive.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is what it is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Just, I just, like, want to, like, you know, I was like, wow, this is extremely. Not okay. And then Sue. But so they have these robots, and she needs this yellow robot in order to help her find her brother, but, you know, now they're, like, kind of outlaws. And then somehow she joins up with Chris Pratt, who has bad hair, and another, like, robot who's much bigger, and he's, like a bounty hunter. Like, type. Not bounty hunter, but, like, he's.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think the question was, what is this movie about? Not what is every plot detail of the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, together they're going to find her brother. And then, meanwhile, Stanley Tucci is evil Steve Jobs and is trying to get everyone to wear his little neurocassum and live in the metaverse because he wants.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

To be with his mother, who made him stuffed peppers, but actually didn't. It's an idealized version of his mom.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Correct.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Who was an alcoholic and a mean woman when she was sober.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. And so Millie. So it's about Millie Bobby Brown trying to find her brother with the help of some illegal robots fighting against Stanley Tucci.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what it's about.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, exactly what it's about.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's one of the worst movies of the year. It's one of the worst movies of the decade. It is hard to judge the movie in A vacuum. There are a couple of things that you could say. This wasn't bad, but it being a $320 million movie that is served exclusively on the Netflix service, an intended tentpole, but only at home, made by filmmakers who have mistaken their caretakerdom for creativity. It is pretty much a fiasco. It's like derivative in many different directions. It's the Terminator meets Wally.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Ready Player One.

[Sean Fennessey]

The creator meets Ready Player One. Lots of stuff you've seen before, really just some of the worst star acting you're ever going to come across. I mean, both Millie Bobby Brown and Chris Pratt are terrible in this movie. They are so checked out. They. You don't. They clearly are. Green screening, like they have no mil. Has no idea how to act opposite these characters.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She checked in like, you know, it's, she's, she's a Netflix star that they're trying to like extend the universe and so. And they're trying to bridge some of her younger fans into like, quote unquote, more grown up material. But this is rated PG 13. There is, I guess, like robot violence, but you know, but it's. Anyway, could she ever do anything other than this? Like this. She is doing what she was cast to do?

[Sean Fennessey]

I would. I mean, if you watch Enola Holmes, which isn't good, but is. They've made two of those now. They're, they're, you know, Sherlock Holmes extended universe movies that Netflix makes, she's better in those movies.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wouldn't say she's like amazing, but she's like dead eyed in this movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think that she wasn't my problem. Like, of all the things that were going on in this movie, I think that this is what happens when.

[Mark Anthony Green]

The.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Chewbacca cheat goes wide. So the Chewbacca cheat is something that I ranted about years ago. I think it's in the last of the Star wars sequels, but maybe it's in Force Awakens. I can't actually remember. But the. There's this sequence in the. One of those movies where Chewbacca is flying away from a planet.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's in the Rise of Skywalker and.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He like his spaceship explodes and we as a collective audience and the characters in the film are all led to believe that Chewbacca is dead. It's very sad. Chewbacca is a beloved character.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Excuse me, I know who Chewbacca is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I know. I'm, I'm more like podcasting. And you are basically manipulated into thinking that Chewbacca is dead. But then you get the serotonin hit Because Chewbacca is still alive. And what you realize is that, like, oh, this is what they're gonna do. They're gonna actually play on the idea that something real has happened, something emotional, something devastating, something consequential has happened. But not really. Not really because we could not possibly impact. Like, what if we wanna do Wookiee World? What if we wanna have Chewbacca this. What if we can't kill a Wookiee and then not have him be at Star. Star Wars Galaxy Cruise?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

So this movie does that basically across the board. It's like no one is actually ever really dead. The civil war that you're talking about takes place between animatronic logos like Mr. Peanut and people who are wearing Apple Vision Pros and fighting with drone robot bodies. So there. I don't even know what kind of casualties there were in this war. They never actually engage in that. Not that I want this to be like an Alex Garland film, but, like, it is always basically creating an out for itself. And even like a moment towards the end of the film where Chris Pratt's buddy, voiced by Anthony Mackie, you think dies a robot is immediately reborn as just the littler robot inside of, like, the little robot inside of a big robot. And you're just like, oh. So we had 30 seconds of grief and thinking that this character might have lost his friend and now he's just got his buddy back. It's always cheating you. It is always bullshit. And it's always like, I. I don't even know if it really is offensive enough to get angry about. It just makes me bummed out.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's because the movie is very dark and very, like, attempting to be James Cameron, that we lose sight of the fact that if this were marketed more as a movie for kids, if this were more like the Goonies or more like ET which is really ultimately what it's in the vein of. You probably wouldn't hold what you just described against. No, no, but because it basically is like, this is a mega IP event movie. Then all of that stuff comes to the fore. And so the lack of stakes feels terrible. Like in the Goonies, we're not like, why do we kill one of the Goonies? You know?

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, that wasn't.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's not how you think about a movie that's made for 11 year olds. But this movie, because of the incredible success the Russos have had because of this long string of IP movies that we've seen from this service, Red Notice, Extraction six Underground, no offense to triple Frontier, but triple Frontier. There's a long chain of really mediocre, mostly movies that are like this, that are meant to be. You used to get Predator, and now you get this.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And so it hasn't supplanted the Goonies. It's supplanted mainstream action movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think I sort of. Sort of. I think maybe we're taking it a little bit personally, like, because we had to watch it. And I mean, it's, like, catastrophically bad. I hated it. And I did take offense to Millie Bobby Brown. And you just, like, fast forwarded through Mr. Peanut, voiced by Woody Harrelson, just, like, as a part of.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Sound like Jimmy Carter. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, which is just there. There's just a level of. And I guess that's supposed to be some sort of, like, corporate satire, but it's not. But it's just all.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, this is a bigger issue if you want to get into kind of like the politics subtext of the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Film is the text is like absolute total garbage.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's just. It doesn't. It doesn't represent anything like it. It is trying to be, I think, a kind of satire.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh. I thought it was supposed to be like, an allegory about how we should be. Like, everybody deserves, like, dignity in life, including our robots. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't really. I mean, that was what the creator was as well. But then I don't really know what that means.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I want robots to be free. But then she gives a whole speech about how, like, we exchange molecules as people. So there's definitely some human supremacy, like, built into some of.

[Sean Fennessey]

We just saw this in Mickey 17. In Mickey 17, the creepers are the other. And you're meant to have. But they are living creatures. They're not robots. And they're not Mr. Peanut or a Dr. Pepper can or Kurt Loder's disembodied AI enhanced voice to make him seem 30 years younger, though not showing us his face while he reads a report from MTV News about the Robot Wars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, the kind of feint towards 90s culture, which is this interesting moment where.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

There is no faint. It's like they played Danzig once. Like, that's.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, there's some needle drops this the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Score at the end. They do, like, the Westworld thing, but with Wonderwall into Yoshini. And that was like, when I was ready to flip my.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's other stuff. I mean, Jason Alexander is a feint towards that. There's a. There's like a number of shot, like.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

An Amblin movie in the 80s sort of, you know, it's supposed to be, like, look at, like, the wonder with which they view, like, the mall full of robots.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So, like, so what I was gonna say, like, it sucks. It, like, really sucks. And in a lot of ways, as we were discussing at a child's birthday party yesterday, like, it is a concentration of everything that is wrong with current, like, big budget studio, like, filmmaking. Like, everything that we hate, including the Russo brothers getting out there and talking, you know, talking their bullshit, like, all boiled down into one horrible movie. Is it, like, the reason that, like, we still have action? You know, is it. Is it the worst thing that's ever happened in the end of civilization? I don't know, but it's really bad.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I. I think I'm. I think because we know what the budget is and we know that that comes in theory, though, not in actuality at the expense of ten $32 million movies or 20, $16 million movies. You know, the whole core Jefferson calculation, obviously that isn't what Netflix would do. Netflix is doing this very purposefully. They've done it over and over and over again. I forgot to mention the Gray Man. The last time the Russos did this, and they made a really awesome version.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I had way more fun with the Gray Man.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I think they're both pretty dire.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. But the Gray man, like, at least had, like, like a very open cynicism and dark like it was.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would argue that's worse because they wasted high level talent, at least in this. It's like Chris Pratt is in the middle of one of the least interesting star decades in a long time, just.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Playing Han Solo over and over again.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think also these movies, as opposed to, like, a big budget failure at the box office, they hold, like, a negative space in our cultural memory. They're either awful or we don't think about them. They don't really have fans. They have not created any other business for Netflix. Which is one of the things I find most curious about this is there's.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No Adam Project 2.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. But there's no attempt to, like, build a theme park or to merchandise these things. They exist only in this closed loop of entertainment that Netflix and it is their business model. So I understand it. But I think the fact that it doesn't have any other relationship in the world other than just going to this place feels so anathema to what movies are, which is like a place for everybody to be together and have fun together. And sometimes it's in a movie theater, sometimes it's at Disneyland. I'm not saying Disneyland is like a sacred space or anything, but it is like, kind of an extension of culture that allows people to feel connected again. This is the opposite of that. This is a neurocaster. This is the people in this movie being locked in on this giant thing that is meant to distract you from the world. We're obviously having a moment together personally about it. I appreciate that. But it's only because it's like gun to our head, you know, it's like, this is the biggest movie of the weekend by far, and so we have to talk about it. And so, you know, it's been interesting watching the Russos do the press tour. They've said a number of things that are very silly. I thought it was very amusing that they pointed out the fact that Netflix shouldn't be doing this, that they shouldn't be.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. They say that they walk out the door to go back to Marvel to make what will probably be two of the biggest movies of the century.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, you particularly don't like what they represent, which is interesting because they come from something that you not only cover, but admire.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. And I think that what they had to me. Okay, so there's nothing personal against those guys, obviously. Who gives a shit? But, like, I think that what bothers me is that one thing that sort of defined them on the first 10 years of their career was a very, like, practical humility. Like, they were very good at, like, figuring out, like, how can we elevate whatever material we happen to be engaged with, whether it's an episode of Community or, you know, like a Captain America movie, what have you. And then after Endgame, I think they bought into this idea that they were Spielberg and that they were going to change movie making and that they could basically start dreamworks with Agbo, which is their company. And hearing them talk about, like, going back to Marvel with all the tools and the technological innovations that they've developed at their company. When I'm like, you guys routinely put out stuff that is the definition of slope now. Like, Citadel is the worst fucking thing I've ever seen. Like, by far.

[Sean Fennessey]

And they're serious on Amazon.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. And it's like all of these things. Like, there's almost this weird perverse, like, smirk about how much they cost. And you're never like, man, I can see it. I can see how you guys spent. I can see every dime on the screen. You know, it's like there's this weird blindfolded participation by all the creative community that Comes into these films where they're just like, I'll fucking do the voice for Mr. Peanut Man. Like, just tell me where to sign.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, I have a real, like, shame on you attitude about Woody and Stanley Tucci and, like, people who know way better than to do a movie like this. And, you know, mailing it in is mailing it in. Millie, Bobby Brown and Chris Pratt are different. They're, like, trying to be stars. This is a big star project. I kind of understand that. You know, Giancarlo Esposito. This is the second movie in a row this year where he showed up to be the bad guy. And, like, with a nothing part. Yes. And nothing, really.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Where he basically is, like, sitting at a table and having his face on a TV screen somewhere.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. And possibly filmed everything way after, you know, of, like, from a. Like, his closet.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Nobody else has never lost. This one didn't really feel like one of those, like, oh, they didn't even have a script for this. Like, this actually feels like a pretty complete story that has, like, a beginning and middle and end. It's so flat. It's so, like, there's no dynamic range between any of the set pieces. You're never like, oh, my God, can you believe it? Like, this is happening. It's just like, oh, yeah, you don't know shit. Like, there's a mall full of robots who are.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Now we. Now we go to the deserted mall and the, like, apocalypse.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

All of a sudden, they took a submarine to Seattle and they're. They're going to attack the. The evil corporations building. And I. You're right. Like, this is almost like, would it be better not to acknowledge it at all? But I suppose the way you tied it in, which is like, it's hard not to look at the box office weekend and then assume that most people who are like, I literally have two hours, I can do one of five things. And it's like, they probably watched this. And then I think a lot of adults are people who are looking for. I would imagine they watched Adolescence, which is the number one show on Netflix and is four hours long. So it is a really tough fight that theaters have on their hands. If you put it up against this.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you think the energy is going to be like in Vegas when we go to cinema?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, my energy is gonna be.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that will be different from the theater owners in the studios.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, it's not good. Because to Chris's point about. I think there were many, many people, I think a majority of America who said, I Don't have time to go to the theater to see a movie this weekend. And I think that they do see it, do that most weekends. And that's bad. I don't even know if I buy that. They were sitting there thinking, okay, well, I have two hours and I can't make it to the theater, but instead I'm gonna turn on the Electric State. I think the mentality of most people is like, I definitely don't have time to go to the theater. And I guess I'll just like click two buttons and not pay attention to something and like not remember this.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And this thing has that Netflix movie thing where they're constantly describing what is on the screen. So you kind of don't even have to watch because all of the dialogue is, I'm sad because my parents died. I'm also sad because I lost a mother. You know what I mean? Like, there's never any nuance to like any of the drama. Like it's self evident, like that everybody's like, I'm sad because of this.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's like, well, I think an overlooked part of this in particular, if we're going to make it a binary, and it's not necessarily a binary, but let's just say for the sake of this conversation that it is, is that in people's minds, the Electric State is free. That's a fixed cost that they pay every month and they look at Netflix maybe every day, maybe they only look at it eight, eight times a month. But that's more than they go to the movie theater. Yeah, going to the movie theater is $40, $60, $80, $100. Netflix firing it up at 8pm after you put your kids to bed in our case, or after you've had a long day at work, or you have a dead afternoon on a Saturday.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And if you go to the movie theater, there's a guy on his phone and if there's. And like the, the projection isn't great or something.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but, but even the financial point is essential. But I do also think they're not even. They think of Netflix as Netflix and not as like, I'm going to watch a movie on Netflix.

[Sean Fennessey]

Totally.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's almost a different activity, like a different, you know, art format, which is what they wanted. Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

They wanted it to be that fixed ecosystem experience, not a wider experience. And the fact that they are like licensing fewer movies now, but the stuff that they do license is all of the stuff that they could basically like pretend like it's a Netflix original, even though it came out from Lionsgate in 2012, and it stars Jason Statham. So, like, it is all part of a very, as always, a very sophisticated strategy that they deploy. But when it's in the service, especially at the highest end of the budget, in the service of something like this, I find it very, very depressing.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I agree with you. So here's the one thing I will say, and it's my hope. I think they've gone away from this largely in movies, and I know they had turnover in the executive department of that in terms of their film stuff.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

They still will do things with television that nobody else would ever get the spotlight on. These kinds of shows, whether it's Ripley from last year or adolescence from this year, I can't believe that that many people get an opportunity to check out something so formally inventive, so beautifully acted, so beautifully written, so important. I wish that they could do that with film. You know what I mean? Like, it's almost like, if we're gonna take the poison, please give us some medicine.

[Sean Fennessey]

The thing that is missing because they. I mean, look, Roma, Irishman, marriage, story. Like, they've put out a lot of great movies over the years, but there's.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Something wrong with the way those movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

Killer. You know, the knives out movies. Like, there's. They put out a ton of great movies. To me, it's more about shifting to being more like an old studio, which is what I want so many studios to do, which is, like, have a real development team that actually develops properties, not just with insanely powerful directors. Because for the most part, what they do is they. They. In the past, they have recruited your Martin Scorsese's, your David Finchers, your Jane Campion's, your Alfonso Cuarons. And saying, like, what's the one that nobody else will make? We'll make it for you. Which can create radical art, but. And maybe win awards, but usually not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

But then those movies also go into the negative zone that I'm talking about.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then they start to feel as though they don't exist. There's no physical representation of them. They don't play rep theaters. They only exist inside this closed system. And so they don't feel as much like a contribution to the wider art form. That's not good. If they change the model, which they're not going to do, but if they change the model, obviously, the movies could go into the movie theaters, they could be sold physically, whatever, all the things that I would want, but they would probably live on in a deeper and more true Way. In addition to that, a movie like Novocaine, I'll use this as a pivot point. To me, kind of feels like what they should be doing more of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And we saw with Rebel Ridge and Carry on last year that there's a huge audience. Matt Bellani, Lucas Shaw talked about this a few weeks ago when they were looking at, like, what are the most watched movies on their service. I don't think they're gonna make a lot more $300 million movies. I do think they're gonna make a lot more $60 million movies or $50 million movies. In the case of Novakin, I think it costs like 18 million, which is. Well, you saw it. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was one of two people in a 500 seat theater on Saturday afternoon. So I think 500. I, you know, did my best to roughly.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, you counted 500 seats. You counted 500 individual seats.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I had 20 in my aisle, and then I started doing some multiplication, and then I stopped.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

Math. This is the new movie from Dan Burke and Robert Olsen, who made a couple of movies that I've liked. Villains, Significant Other, which was on Paramount plus a couple years ago. It stars Jack Quaid, America's good boy, the nice boy of Hollywood. This is his second genre movie of the year that he's headlining after Companion, also stars Amber Midthunder, Ray Nicholson. I have some thoughts on Ray Nicholson.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Amber Midthunder from our beloved Predator.

[Sean Fennessey]

Absolutely. She also appears in Oprah rather than Prey. It's about an assistant bank manager who can't feel pain, who, after a bank robbery, his, like, physical pain. He can't feel physical pain. He can feel emotional pain.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

For sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

We see that throughout the film. And after a bank robbery, his budding love interest is kidnapped, and he decides that he's gonna chase after these bank robbers and try to track her down. And because he can't feel pain, he can survive in this journey in ways that others would not be able to. I remember when you first saw this trailer, you were like, I don't know. I feel like we got too much of this stuff, you know? Like, I feel like the. Like.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. Fake Wick.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Post John Wick.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Nobody.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I just watched Love Hurts.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

The Kiwi Kwan movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Kiwi Kwan movie, which I thought was very bad. Maybe having seen Love Hurts has made me like Novocaine more. But I kind of liked it, I think mostly because Jack Quaid is very winning and you basically need your star to be great for this movie to work. And I'm just. I'm on board with him. So I liked it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Me too. It is amazing because you spend a lot of time with just him on screen and then you can just like, see the Meg Ryan, like, take over his body in certain moments in that very, like, winning way, which is just kind of fun.

[Sean Fennessey]

See the Meg Ryan. Yeah. That's a good way of putting it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

In the interstitial moments. And it is part of that, his ability to ingratiate you to this point.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. You have empathy for him.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I liked the first 45 minutes of it, you know, and then at some point it's like, what's your definition of fun? And is your definition of fun watching his, like, thumb bend 45 different ways? And like, that part was tough. Yeah. I mean, it is gross. And I. That is what it's supposed to be. But so, like, I got over it a little bit. I liked the Nepo baby, like, square.

[Sean Fennessey]

Off at the end with Ray and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah. And that's another one where you can, like, see it jump out a little bit. So it was fine. I think that you're quite right. It would have played very well at home on a Saturday night if I were sitting down and like, guess I wanna watch a movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it will when it goes to voj. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Again, I don't think that anyone consuming Electric State is sitting down thinking, now I'm gonna watch like a, you know, tub of popcorn and like, Friday movie night. It's just kind of like, I'm gonna watch tv.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I hope we all get to that point where we're just like, staring at popcorn.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like, here we go. You know, I think that that, as Chris said, is slop. Is like widget content. And this feels like a fun mid budget movie that plenty of people could watch at home happily.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Who are these directors?

[Sean Fennessey]

They. They made the movie Significant other with Jacob. Jake Lacy. Oh, yeah, you remember the.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, of course. In the forest.

[Sean Fennessey]

In the forest.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. That was cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which was pretty cool.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, that was a real.

[Sean Fennessey]

They're talented. They definitely. I think the movie is very episodic in the final 45 minutes, as Amanda said, where it's just sort of like he keeps getting himself into incredibly violent showdowns with people and they can't hurt him, which becomes iterative at a certain point. Like you said the first 45 minutes. I thought they were pretty adept at the rom com stuff, you know, like this burgeoning romance between Amber Midthunder, who also I thought was very good in this. Good support. It worked. Yeah. Matt Walsh is super funny in this Movie. Betty Gabriel is super funny in this movie. It was better than I thought it was gonna be. Is ultimately where I landed on.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It also starts with a 90s kid. There's everybody hurts. Arya playing like Lally's route, which is very funny.

[Sean Fennessey]

A number of very good needle drops throughout this movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

They never address whether Kurt Cobain is still alive in the version of reality in Electric State.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, let's call the Russos. You have their number. Give them a call. One last thing about this Ray Nicholson I mentioned is Jack Nicholson's son. He's making a bid now. He's been in movies a little bit in the last five years, but I saw another movie that he was in that I think came out this past weekend called Borderline. You guys familiar with this movie?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No.

[Sean Fennessey]

Small indie starring Samara Weaving, also set in the 90s, also set in the mid-90s. She plays a pop star, I think, named Sophia. And he plays her stalker, her mentally unwell stalker. And the movie is very much told from. It's very king of comedy. It's not quite funny, it's not quite scary, but it exists in that zone between those two. And he's really, really good. And you obviously are looking at Jack Nicholson's son, and he's making Jack Nicholson faces. He can't not go crazy the way that Jack does. But in the same way with Jack Quaid, where I'm like, I don't know, man. Like, being a Nepo baby doesn't mean you're untalented. You have your parents DNA, the essential.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Presence when it jumps out, it's like, oh, that same quality that makes. The way that your eyebrows go up, and you'd be like, you know, I'm leaning in. I'm charmed by you. Jack Quaid. You know, it has. It's there.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. So I liked that other film with Rey, and I thought he was a really good villain in this movie. Very pro forma. Not surprising, but very good at what he was doing. Let's go back to streaming movies.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Let's talk about the Gorge.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which we've overlooked.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

We have. We left it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, We. We never got to it on this show. You never got to it at all.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

That's okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I chose to watch a different movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

So Chris and I are going to attempt to share with you in the same way you shared with us the story of the Electric State, what happens in the Gorge. See if we can do this as a duo. Cr. Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I mean, Miles Seller plays a soldier. I mean, you would I honestly could have my. My. All my loved ones dangling over a shark pit, and it's on me to remember the names of the characters in this movie, and they would just be chum. I would not be able to save them.

[Sean Fennessey]

Same. I can't. I don't know what their name is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Miles Teller plays a soldier with PTSD who's kind of kicking around, I think, like, the sort of Ventura Carpenteria area based on the skyline. And he gets hired by. He thinks the CIA. So just like a really overcast kind of.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

All right. I was just gonna say, what are the identifying characteristics of that?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

More just. It's just like a lot. Like, a lot of gray. Like, ooh. Like, you know, beach haze. You know, like. And he gets hired by Sigourney Weaver, who he believes is CIA. There's only one person in this conference room, and she's just like, I'm in the CIA. And he's like, totally believe.

[Sean Fennessey]

For the record, he's a sniper. Yeah. He's not just. Sorry.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He's the best. The best.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He's what?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, he has competition, but.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So is he out of the game?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He is out of the game. He's home. He's rotated back to the world. He's hanging out in Carpenteria, and he gets hired by Sigourney Weaver to do a job on a parallel track. Another plot. Anya Taylor. Joy plays a Eastern European Balkan woman who's also a sniper.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Who is she in Carpenteria?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No, she's in, like, Romania or, like, Croatia or something. I don't know. I can't remember. Um, but they are both brought to this space called the Gorge. The Gorge is colloquially described as the gate to hell, which I think would have been a better movie if it had been that, because instead, it is a giant pit that guarded by two towers on one side and the other. And you're not supposed to talk to your mirror. You know, sniper over on the other side. You're just supposed to keep what's in the gorge from coming out. It's just basically like, you're like the stopgap method from stopping whatever demonic presence is down there from getting out. And there are demonic presences.

[Sean Fennessey]

The reason for this I've been trying to think through because it's actually a great setup.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's awesome. Scott Derrickson has incredible first acts.

[Sean Fennessey]

He always. I was just gonna say that he always sets his movies up so well and sometimes pays them off for me. Not always, but this is the director of Sinister, doctor Strange, the Black Phone. The setup is that you've got these two snipers on opposite ends, essentially on opposite ends, even of the sort of, like, international relations. And they have made this tacit agreement, unspoken in the shadows, that they will protect the world from what is inside of the gorge. By every. I don't know how long the cycles are. Is it one year, is it three years? However long the cycles are cycling in one elite sniper to shoot down whatever would be climbing up from the gorge to attempt to get into the world at large. The problem is in this case, that these two insanely hot people have been enlisted as the snipers, and they fall in love from across the way.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

They do love actually boards.

[Sean Fennessey]

They literally love actually it. And they have, like, nights together where they, like, share wine across the way and they play music for each other.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is it like we're using, like, binoculars?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What are we doing?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Writing on a whiteboard to be like.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because, you know, they have their scopes and everything with their rifles and they, you know, he looks like Miles Teller and she looks like Anya Taylor Joy. They're like, I want to fuck this sniper across the way who's from Bulgaria or whatever, okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And that'd be like an awesome Joachim von Trier movie. I want to fuck this sniper.

[Sean Fennessey]

The movie. Part of the appeal of the movie is part of what works against it, which is that it's five different movies. It is an elite spy sniper movie. It is a story about young love. It is eventually a video game movie because, of course, they have to go into the gorge. Well, first they have to get together. They get together. They have a magical night together.

[Amanda Dobbins]

In whose tower?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

In Anya's. And it's the sin. It's the original sin. It's Adam and Eve biting the apple.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And it's like they take their eye off the ball, which is the gorgeous.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What would the international relations, like, parallel.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Well, it's good that you asked that, because we find out as it goes on that what's actually in the bottom of the gorge is not, in fact, the gate to hell, but rather a massive military industrial complex. Bioweapon experimentation zone.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's gone terribly labs and, like, they've just, like, all the people who've been down there since, like, World War II have basically become deformed demons. So you get down there, and it's spiders.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Why do they have to go down there?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

They. One of them falls, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And then the other goes down after.

[Sean Fennessey]

Them to save them. Yeah, right.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

When Miles Tellers fall, because they're just like. No, when Miles is going back from his date.

[Sean Fennessey]

He needs to return to his post.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

His cord gets cut. His, like, little.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, it's just he, like, zipline gets line over.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Cool. You guys into ziplining?

[Sean Fennessey]

The moment all the way up until I was. I. I think some of the dialogue's really shoddy in this movie, but the moment up until the chord snapped, I was like, I'm pretty much in on this. Like, I really want to know where this is going.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

As soon as they get into the gorge, I. I hated it. Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

There's like, demon soldiers with, like, personalities, and it's kind of like what sounds like what happens with Novocain. A really good hour and then an hour of like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Kind of monotonous action.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So is Sigourney Weaver ultimately not.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

We find out that she is, in fact, not CIA. He just didn't ask for ID and she was. She's employed or runs the. The bioweapon.

[Amanda Dobbins]

How would you appropriately ask for ID from the CIA?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I don't know if it works like, with a cop, like, where you, like, you get to ask, like, license and registration. I think the CIA operates under subterfuge anyway.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

So the idea of them being like, by the way, I'm CIA. You know, in any case, this is the When. When we write the history books about cinema, this will be the purest distillation of COVID era filmmaking. It's two people who are rarely in the same scene together. There's only, like, three other people in the movie. Most of it is VFX for the second hour.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cool.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I don't know why this movie took, like, five years to come out.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was clearly made for the big screen and they just shuttled it to streamline.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But it was always an Apple movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was always an Apple movie. But, you know, Apple released Napoleon. They released Killers of the Flower Moon. It was in this time. You know, they're releasing F1. Like, they're still releasing movies. Yeah, It's a big budget movie. This is a big movie. This movie has a Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross score. Like, this was meant to be a mainstream movie. And I could be wrong, but my gut is that they just looked at it and they're like, this isn't good enough. We can't do the typical marketing spend against this to put it in a movie theater.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So they make it to the. To the bottom of the bioweapons. They defeat Sigourney Weaver.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

They find an old. No, she's just still up there in her helicopter. But they find a jeep that they drive up the side of a mountain or of the gorge like you do, because they have a winch and they get to the top, and then they set off a bunch of charges so that Sigourney Weavers come in her helicopter, and the helicopter gets blown up and falls into the gorge.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then, like desserts. Except explodes.

[Sean Fennessey]

In theory. All of the testing.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And then they. You know. Because, like, they're separated sort of as they escape.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And Anya Taylor Joy gets to become a barmaid in like. Like, the Positano Coast. And one day, Miles Teller shows up and is like, I hate.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, so it's like Born at the End. Yeah. That's beautiful.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's like Michael Caine in the. In Italy at the end of Dark.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Knight, he didn't want to bury another Batman.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, that sounds. This movie's not good.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

A lot of talent attached to it. Sort of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Are you with me? It would have been cool if it was. Hell, it would have been cool if.

[Sean Fennessey]

You were like, why is not a John Carpenter movie? You know? Why is it, like a weird Resident Evil movie? Yeah, I don't. They basically turned into Resident Evil at the end, and it's not very good.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think we're casting too many hot people to do jobs that not hot people do. I think this is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

A movie that I think, to your point about John Carpenter, it should have been, like, a James woods kind of guy. Should have been doing this. You know, it should not be always, like, Miles Teller looking, like, pretty hot, but actually quite bored with the movie he's in, which I'm a little bit nervous about for him.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's off track. He's off track. He had more momentum than you could possibly imagine after Maverick, and he's way off track. So what are we going to do? I know the Eagles are not off track. I know that in theory. He's doing great.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He's doing great. He was on Saturday Night Live 50.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. He was on the. At the Oscars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They lost their house in the fire.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's terrible. I don't. I wish him no ill will.

[Amanda Dobbins]

People are sending him grateful.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Nobody gets his back more than me and him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I see so much in him.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I just want better for him. Let's talk about last breath quickly.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

You didn't see this yet.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I didn't.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. I do have to mend.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Kristen, you're sort of. You're so. It's basically like Apollo 13 underwater.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mm.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Mark Anthony Green]

But.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But but without.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Is this based on a true story?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. Have you seen the thing?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

The what?

[Amanda Dobbins]

The documentary. Cause it's based on, like, a documentary.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a 2019 documentary. It's based on a true story. Same director as the documentary, but didn't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Know how it, how it wound up. So I would say this was like, I mean, Apollo 13 underwater without, you know, bigger ideas or Ron Howard's budget or Tom Hanks. But I definitely was concerned. I didn't know what was gonna happen because I didn't know the rest of the documentary. And I was very concerned for the people involved. At some points, like, really thought I was watching a snuff film. I, you know, I was, like, really uncomfortable. Like, really, really uncomfortable because of this story and the way it was being filmed. But also it, you know, it's just fine.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I fully agree that I felt both. Enormous fear for the characters, but also walked out of the movie and was like, that was all right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a common trend now. The most recent example I can think of is the Jimmy Chin Chai Vasarelli movie, the Rescue, coming out in 2018, I wanna say. And then Thirteen Lives, the Ron Howard movie, four years later.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Pretty good.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Ron Howard movie is excellent. Unfortunately, I had seen the Rescue, so there was no drama. Like, I knew exactly.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But we also knew that what happened in Apollo 13. Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

But the problem is that the actual story of that Thai cave rescue, the details of it are remarkable. What they did to rescue those kids is amazing. But if you watch it completely shown in the way that. That's a great documentary too. In this case, I just hadn't seen Last Breath, the 2019 documentary that Alex Parkinson made. So, like you, I didn't know where the story was going. And what actually happens to one of the men who gets trapped defies explanation. It's just one of the craziest things that you could ever imagine happening.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, like you're. You're watching a movie, so it's. You're thinking to yourself, okay, well, like, I'm watching this movie. Like, I. I have to be watching it because of one outcome. But then the movie does sort of confound that for a while. And so you're like, okay, wait, actually, what am I watching? What is it? So there is like a level of suspense that it maintains.

[Sean Fennessey]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That is pretty gripping, I would say. It's like top to bottom, miscast. With the exception of the captain of the boat, which is Woody Nelson.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, he's no Cliff Curtis. He's awesome.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I Love him.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, he's great.

[Sean Fennessey]

But the Woody is kind of weird in it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's. I mean, like, he's fine, but it's like another Mr. Peanut situation like that. You know, he's mostly in one little submersible, that Simu.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Lou, real quick, did you. Were you getting Jimmy Carter from Mr. Peanut? Sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. You know, but, like, is that who.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mr. Peanut is based on?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No, but he sounded like Mr. Peanut and wasn't Jimmy Carter.

[Sean Fennessey]

He was a peanut farmer. Yeah.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Peanut farmer.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

So was he like, just juju?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it was an homage to the late president.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Kind of wonder.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I think that was probably recorded some years ago, before Carter passed.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Carter, his policies internationally, you agreed with them. Kind of a gorge situation.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

How would Jimmy Carter have handled the gorge?

[Sean Fennessey]

Last breath. Soft recommend.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Soft recommend. Yeah. Okay. You know, I think they cast people who are willing to dive rather than people who maybe had the emotional register, but that's okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Before we get to the next film, I just want to address something really quickly.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Is this about me and you?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Nope. Nobody really knows who Bernthal is playing, which is why I don't know. There's some speculation that it's Menelaus and there's some speculation that it's Master.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did wonder if it was Menelaus.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And so it's not my fault. I just. I walked myself into that corner. I couldn't get out. But I want to say, I need.

[Sean Fennessey]

You to get your shit together. Figure out what the Odyssey are is. Stop dive bombing these episodes with random updates. Come in with a plan. I'll support that plan.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's nothing I want more than for you to be a star. A big shining star. Let's talk about the monkey. This is the second Oz Perkins movie in eight months. There's actually another movie coming out later this year from Oz Perkins called Keeper. Also comes from Neons, based on a Stephen King story from the 80s, which I read not recently, but when I was a kid and I remember being very upsetting and scary and I did not think the monkey was very scary and is not really trying to be. It is much more of a horror comedy. Emphasis on extravagant, gory kills. Do you know anything about the story of this movie? Do you know what it is?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, but I did recently learn that Oz Perkins great grandmother is also Schiaparelli. So that was. I didn't know that. Yeah. So there you go. I learned that from his press tour for this film, I think from.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Did you have Oz on for the monkey or. No.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I did not. I was pretty mixed on the monkey.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I was pretty mixed on the monkey too. It has a bunch of things that I'm not a big fan of in horror movies, both or in any filmed medium, which is twins and also.

[Sean Fennessey]

Crazy times for you right now, though.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Dangerous toys. I don't like dangerous toys. Never been a Chucky guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, interesting. So there is a monkey, of course, a toy monkey. It's a toy monkey that plays the drums. And the monkey plays the drums, I think because Disney copyrighted. What is the other monkey? Is it the organ grinder?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

This guy? Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

The. I'm almost positive that's what happened. So in the story that's what it is. But in real life, in this story, they had to change it to the drums. But every time the monkey performs sort of drum solo Knox energy for the record.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Someone in the world is killed in.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

A spectacular fashion in extreme kills in this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Every time Knox drums.

[Sean Fennessey]

So the kills are fucking crazy. Some of them are fun.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Sure. I think it's a good testament to why kills need context. Because like just pure violence or bloodshed is. It doesn't do anything. I mean, I can admire it from an aesthetic level and there is definitely some good filmmaking in this, but if there was like some goofiness to Long Legs, it's that extracted and then blown up for an entire film. Yeah. And I am a guy who. One of my favorite movies ever made is Maximum Overdrive, which is a Stephen King directed film about what would happen if trucks and machines took over the.

[Sean Fennessey]

World for kind of the electric state. Yeah. By the way, Stephen King riddled with cocaine throughout the production.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But so I. I don't mind like that. I don't mind funny horror, but this was like kind of like just gory for gore sake. And I never really got that into like the story itself of these two twin brothers who were kind of beefing from childhood and then realized they have to rely on each other.

[Sean Fennessey]

And here's the thing, this movie just like Long Legs. The more I listened to Oz talk about it or read about the inspirations for it, the more I got it. That's not necessarily a good thing for the movie watching experience. But like Long Legs, this is very clearly a movie about processing your parents death and the suddenness of death and how that feels to a person. This movie has two very intense death sequences for parents. He also mentioned death becomes her as a big inspiration, which is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Now I'm listening.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would not say it has quite the feminist energy of Death becomes her. But the tone and that approach, that extreme physical comedy, made it make more sense to me. I really like. I really like Oz, personally. I love talking with him on the show. I liked Long Legs. I'm very curious to see about Keeper. This is the third of the three movies, and I've heard it's very good.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Is Keeper not. It's not also Stephen King?

[Sean Fennessey]

Not also Stephen King, no. Amanda, I would not recommend the Monkey to you.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you see Eephus?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, cool.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, great. Let's talk about EFIs quickly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Directed by Carson Lund, who was at the New York Film Festival last year. I think it was a Cannes in 2024, actually, at the Fortnite. It's about. I know Bob has seen it as well. It's about basically, one last baseball game at another 1990s story. A small Massachusetts town that has an amateur baseball crew before the stadium's going to be demolished to build a new school. It has the structure of a game, but no real story. Is extremely durational. Game takes a very long time to complete, including into the Darkness. Really much more of a character study. It is made by some of the same people who made Christmas Eve at Miller's Point. This is very similar in terms of tone, in terms of, like, the episodic nature of it. I thought it was very charming. What'd you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Same. I mean, it is guys sitting around playing baseball and talking in the dugout, and it's mostly actors that, you know, you haven't seen before of a certain age. It's not like a movie star movie. It's just a very charming slice of life of these people who do something together every once in a while and are having to say goodbye to it. It is a little melancholy.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But in the way that baseball is. I don't know. I like baseball. So I was torn by it, Bob.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, I loved it. I thought that it was. It's one of my favorite movies of the year so far. I did get a chance to see it last year at New York Film Festival. I thought that one of my favorite parts of it was that at times, in a good way, it felt like sort of a competition between the writers to see how many different baseball aphorisms they could just rip off in a row without the movie totally stalling out. And it doesn't. And then the other piece of it that I thought was amazing and captures the essence of baseball is it's so tactile. They have all these cool interstitials between the different episodic, I guess, episodes of the movie, the beginnings of the movie, where, yeah, they literally break it down into innings and they show scorecards. It feels kind of timeless. Although I think it's intended to be set in the 90s where they have these old Sports Authority water bottles. The jerseys are all varying, different ages. It just captures that kind of like liminal and endless quality that baseball can have. It's very, very dreamlike in its execution. So if you love baseball or if you love a kind of like dream descent into weirdness, I do think you will vibe with EEPhas.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

What's going on with this scene, this Scene of the EFIs. The Christmas at Miller's Point.

[Sean Fennessey]

Another generation of independent filmmakers. I love it. I think it's kind of like. I really liked Safdie's New York indie guys. Carson Lund, I think is just a part of that whole crew of people. Some of them are friends, some of them are not. But we kind of whinge about the perilous state of independent movies. But if you want to support independent movies, go check out EFIs. It's very good.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I will support it.

[Sean Fennessey]

A few more for you guys before we wrap up and get to mag. I saw Becoming Led Zeppelin in imax.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Mm, you saw it before we. It was the first part.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. You invited.

[Sean Fennessey]

I invited you guys and you blew me up.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You mostly invited Chris. I was like a last minute and I couldn't make it, but it's fine. Then we got to have barbecue and then we saw Captain America.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Brave New World.

[Amanda Dobbins]

A terrible Marvel film.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Becoming Led Zeppelin is kind of the emotional inverse of Brave New World. Interesting documentary. It only features interviews with the three surviving members of Led Zeppelin and significant archival from John Bonham. I think most of it never heard before, but is basically just a performance movie. It features like several long performances of Led Zeppelin. Good and only goes through the first two records.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Bad, but not terrible. I love Led Zeppelin's perfect art, so it doesn't matter to me. But I. I'm a physical graffiti guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

And four, I was wondering if this was an attempt to make a second film, a third film. Maybe even like, I could see them trying to stretch out. I would be all about that extended universe. Bernard McMahon directed it. This is a major sensory experience. There's a couple of performances. There's one in Sweden, there's one in England. Their first big English performance when they return home from America, where they're just playing Dazed and Confused at length, you know, like eight minute version. Incredibly Overwhelming and powerful in IMAX at home. I don't know if it'll have quite the same effect, but still very cool to see them. Your young son, for example.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm really excited. I mean, I did Google showtimes, and then I was like, I can't.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

When your kid discovers John Bottom, it's over.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I know. I'm like, I have showed him. What is the Zeppelin like, Weird film with the elves.

[Sean Fennessey]

The song Remains the Same.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, Zach showed him that, and I showed him the Lincoln center tribute where Hart plays.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then they. And then John Bonham's son is drumming, so he's, like, kind of aware. But I think this is the next step. I just think we have to do it at home.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, it was really fucking loud. Yeah.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And frankly, I was the youngest person in the theater by far. Like, so many gray hairs in there, rocking outside Zeppelin, but they were having a ball. It's a very pro forma doc, but it's a great music experience. And in a way, I would rather this sort of thing just replace the bohemian rhapsodies of the world. Don't pretend to tell me how the story was.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Just do Queen it, Live Aid and remaster it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Exactly. Just show us that performance. I did enjoy what Jimmy Page had to say, and I learned a lot, specifically about where he started as a session musician and working on Bond themes and how he kind of made his way while also joining the R Birds and becoming a great musician. Robert Plant was like, then you just throw it against the wall, mate, and then it's over here, and then you just grab it over there, and then you just put it like. He had nothing of substance to say the entire film, but I still enjoyed looking at him. He now looks like a JRR Tolkien character. Yeah, but solid movie. Couple of disappointing movies. It breaks my heart to say that the new Errol Morris documentary is not good.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I checked it out and I thought it was pretty. Pretty flat.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty flat, yeah. It's called Chaos. The Manson Murders. It's based on this remarkable Tom O'Neill book about the synchronicity between the Manson murders and several secretive government operations.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You a Manson guy?

[Amanda Dobbins]

In a couple different ways.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No, but in, like, in, like, of the sixties Conspiracies. Of the sixties. Sort of like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I'm like, not the. I mean, like, I have. I've listened to the. You must remember this season. Like, I like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood as much as the Next Person. You know, I. I know the basics, but no, I haven't got. I haven't gotten deep.

[Sean Fennessey]

This book, this O'Neal book is really fascinating. It's a little bit harebrained at times, trying to draw all these connections to things that may or may not ultimately be connected. He has a lot of source material and he's like Charlie Day at the Corkboard vibes very much. But it's written with such momentum that it's hard to not get caught up in it. And I usually feel like Errol Morse is the absolute best at being like, you've got a lot of crazy theories. Let me bring them all together. This just felt like over reliance on certain kind of, like, archival, like, zoom in, photograph style. Weirdly, not enough Tom O'Neill. I kind of wanted him to just be like the full blown narrator of the thing. And I maybe just know a little bit too much about this.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

There you go. Sometimes outlines with documentaries. That's how I kind of felt a little bit. If you've watched the Ken Burns Vietnam documentary. There was another Vietnam documentary on Apple, and I was kind of like, this is just like, I feel like I'm swimming with water wings on here.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, agreed. I mentioned love hurts. Terrible. Yeah, terrible. It made Novocaine feel a lot better. No offense to Kiwi.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Kiwi. And who's the other person in it?

[Sean Fennessey]

Ariana DeBose.

[Amanda Dobbins]

All the Oscar winners.

[Sean Fennessey]

Marshawn lynch is in it. Super world champion.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Also looks like it was shot on, like, the Good Place set, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Well, it's. In fairness to it, it's about real estate agents selling, like, prefab community houses.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

So that kind of, like, fakeness that comes with it, I guess, is justified. It feels like that's just like a screenwriting hack to get a movie made. Cheaper, though, you know, directed by a former stuntman. I usually love movies like that. This one didn't hit. It's a big no. It's also 83 minutes, which I thought was fascinating. Doesn't make it good that it exists. Another kind of disappointment, the Actor, which is a movie that just opened in theaters starring Andre Holland as an actor in New York who is struck in the head after sleeping with some man's wife and then wakes up and finds himself in a small town in Ohio and he can't figure out what happened. Great premise, thrilling setup, based on a Donald Westlake story called memory from 1960.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And was originally going to star Gosling.

[Sean Fennessey]

I believe Gosling and somebody else was. I don't know if Duke Johnson was always attached. Duke Johnson, who worked on Anomalisa with Charlie Kaufman and. Yeah, I think there's a filmmaking style choice that's meant to make it feel like you're in a dream the whole time that I found incredibly distancing and hard to connect with. So I had high hopes for this movie and maybe even thought about drafting it at an auction once upon a time because it's been tabbed for a long time and it kind of just came and went. That's pretty much it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

The great work continues. You know, we'll keep getting into the batter's box and Hollywell will keep pitching us.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's. That's so beautiful. Yeah. It's what, two weeks to baseball season?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, it's almost. It's almost here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So excited.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Not a great spring for the Phils.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not a great spring.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's more about the summer, but. And honestly, it's more about October.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you. Yeah, what happened last October?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Forgot how to hit.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what happens. Who are you rooting for this year?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think we got to do Phillies again.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I was worried, you know, say Dodgers. I was worried you were going to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I mean, I do want to. I want to go. I'm going to take Knox to Dodger Stadium.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I hope I can be a part of that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. I have. I've identified some possible times. We got to do the 4:30pm you know, the sweet SAT, the post NAP, pre bedtime.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

How close to the field you want to be? I don't know if money was no object.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I think he would probably be a little scared of the foul. And I still get scared of the foul ball. So, you know, and that's the net. He's there.

[Sean Fennessey]

If you get close, you have the net.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Did Bill say recently that he thinks the Nets are bad for baseball?

[Sean Fennessey]

He did say that. He sure did.

[Mark Anthony Green]

All right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he did.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Did that resonate in your community, Bob?

[Sean Fennessey]

It sure did. Yeah. I was like, that's a very specific thing to be the one thing that was the domino that crushed Major League Baseball. But maybe he has some data that I don't know about.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think there's a few other reasons. I'm very excited for the baseball season. Clay Holmes season, as I'm calling it. Future Cy Young winner Clay Holmes. Have you heard of him?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I assume he's a Met.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's a Met. He's a converted reliever that they're attempting to stretch out to become a starter.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

He had a promising spring. Griffin Canning.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He had a promising spring.

[Sean Fennessey]

He struck out nine batters. Today is that right, Bob? Seven, but. Yeah, seven. Shit. You know, Injury bug has struck the Mets, but I think we're going to.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Power through March Madness. St. John's what are you cheering for?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I only learned that it was starting this morning. So, like, what are our.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

What are the number one SEC teams? I think the Vols are probably.

[Sean Fennessey]

I believe there are 12 SEC teams.

[Amanda Dobbins]

See, I, like, on the one hand, 14.

[Sean Fennessey]

My goodness.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, when I was an active member of the SEC fan community, we didn't really do basketball.

[Sean Fennessey]

What did you do? Run message boards?

[Amanda Dobbins]

What did you do? So I had a little cheerleading suit that I wore.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you have a cheerleading phase?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no, I just had this little. I was like, four.

[Sean Fennessey]

But did you wear a suit? Like a cheerleading outfit?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it was like a Tennessee Balls. I don't know. Someone got it for me. Listen, what do you want? I was. I was four. Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

When the Electric State happens, we're going to get that online.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but basketball wasn't really a going concern. In the same way, the SEC hadn't really spread its tentacles, and now I know it's just, like, taken over collegiate sports. And I think there are probably some. Some things we should investigate there. Like what? You know, but.

[Sean Fennessey]

So that's like human rights violations.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but I don't really care about the SEC basketball.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who are you rooting for?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Typically, I root for Kentucky because I would always cheer for John Calipari's team. He now coaches at Arkansas. They're both in the tournament, so I think I might split it. Not. Not cheer for either and go for Oregon because I. I love their campus.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Mm, the Ducks.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Very cool. What seed is Oregon this year?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think they're like a five seed.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. It's very exciting. I will be rooting very hard for St. John's I fear tremendous heartbreak is imminent. But nevertheless, I'm very excited for them. I'm also very excited to now share my conversation with Mark Anthony Green. Let's go there right now. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. When you release a movie, the first thing you want to do is make sure people know about it. And even more importantly, you want to make sure that people who like the genre know it's out. Because horror fans are more likely to go see new horror movies. Disney fans will go see new Disney movies. Rom com fans will go see new Rom com movies. Targeting the right audience is key when it comes to marketing. If you're selling expensive new kitchen appliances, you probably want to sell to people who actually like to cook, not people who rely on food delivery services for every meal. And that's the tricky part, making sure your message gets to the right people. You have to use the right tools. If you're in B2B marketing, that means using LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has a network of over 130 million decision makers and the targeting tools to make sure you're connecting with the right ones. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills or company revenue. So you can stop wasting your time and budget on the wrong people. LinkedIn will even give you a hundred dollars credit on your next campaign. So you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com thebigpicture that's LinkedIn.com thebigpicture Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Co. Non alcoholic brews. The other day was golfing with some of the guys. They're like hey, you want anything? I was like, I'm an adult. I got stuff to do tonight. I'm not doing one of these like semi retired deals. 18 holes and see how it goes. Luckily, Athletic Brewing Company had reached out to me. They sent me a bunch of stuff including the Irish Red or the Run Wild IPA and my personal favorite, Upside Dawn. A nice little golden goes well with a few holes of golf this March. Don't miss the sports action with athletic.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Head to athleticbrewing.com ringer to find it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Near you or shop online. That's athleticbrewing.com R I N G E R to find award winning Athletic Na brews near you. Athletic Brewing Co. Fit for all times near beer.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

This episode is brought to you by Emirates. We all love the thought of a vacation to Europe, but have you ever thought about looking a little further? Like Dubai, a city everyone talks about, has absolutely everything you could want from a vacation destination. From world class hotels, record breaking skyscrapers and epic desert adventures to museums that showcase the future, not just the past. Choose from 96 flights per week between.

[Mark Anthony Green]

The United States and Dubai.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Book your flights on emirates.com today.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mark Anthony Green is here. The writer and director of his debut feature film Opus. He also happens to be one of my oldest friends, somebody I've known for 15 years. How did we. What was the first meeting? Do you remember what happened?

[Mark Anthony Green]

I don't remember the first meeting. I remember the day that I realized you were a G. Okay. Which is I pissed off Jay Z. And long story short, I was Sean ran GQ's website and I had written this story that this human being whose name I won't say, Jamil Spencer, who ran Rocaware for Jay Z. And long story short, he came to me, he was like, I want you to write this story about Jay Z buying BBC from Pharrell. And I was like, great. We did all the fact checking, went back and forth with him, published the story, and all hell broke loose. Jay Z turned. This is all according to people, but Jay Z turned his plane around mid flight, as you can do with a private jet. And Will Welch was getting calls from Jana Fleischman, who was Jay Z's publicist, I think still is. And I had only been at GQ for like a month, and I thought I lost my job. And Jay Z's fifth tweet, he had four tweets under his belt.

[Sean Fennessey]

Total.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Total, yeah. And they were all like, you know, I have an album on the way. And that was it for the whole rollout for Magna Carta, Holy Grail, like, whatever the albums were. And his fifth tweet was, I am partnering with Pharrell, not buying his company like GQ erroneously printed. And I saw my life and job flash before my eyes. But then, Sean, it was like, send me every email, saw all my work, saw that everything had been checked, and da, da, da. And then you went to war, and it was tight. So you've been my boy ever since.

[Sean Fennessey]

I appreciate that. I don't even really remember what I did, but I did know some people in Jay Z's orbit at that time. So if I had.

[Mark Anthony Green]

You did that.

[Sean Fennessey]

I did the best that I did.

[Mark Anthony Green]

You were like, hey, this is on somebody. It's not on this.

[Sean Fennessey]

My young reporter.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. This 22 year old who did his job.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, I've been thinking a lot about that time when we worked together, which was ultimately only less than 18 months, but we bonded pretty quickly. And we definitely talked about movies in that time. But I don't think we ever had the conversation like, yo, I want to be a filmmaker one day.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Really?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think so. I was trying to think back to it because I was obviously, you know, knowing me back then, I was even really movie crazy.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Even though that wasn't my beat at the time.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

So go to the beginning. Like, when did you know you wanted to do it? You know, what. What were the. The signal moments in your youth where you were watching movies and felt Transported Man?

[Mark Anthony Green]

I can remember two young experiences. One was watching Batman, where Michelle Pfeiffer straddles Batman in the theater. And I Had my first crush. I was like.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that was true of a lot of people back then.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. And I was born in 88, so I was very young, but it was like, man, movies. And then. And then when I watched the Fifth Element in a theater, which I stand by also, I'm a diehard listener. The year the Fifth Element came out, it went undrafted in a draft that 97. 97, sure. OK. Whatever it is, it was egregious and the fact that none of y'all drafted it. And so I've shown up. I might be the only director to show up at this show, but, you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Know, you're saying you want to get. You want to redraft 1997, you know?

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I just couldn't believe it. Went undrafted. What an incredible film.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Mark Anthony Green]

You have John Paul Gaultier, some of the best costume design ever. You have Chris tucker, like, throwing 2,000 miles an hour in a unitar, flirting with stewardesses that they cast it as all mixed women with freckles and bobs. I don't know what more you could want from a film.

[Sean Fennessey]

The very small gap in age that we have, though, I think explains a lot because I was 18 when this came out and you were 9.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. You had seen, like, Die Hard and all the movies that I understand, for me, that was the first time I ever seen Bruce Willis.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, interesting.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a weird way to get introduced to it.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I know. I know.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a cool movie. I have nothing against that movie, but that's.

[Mark Anthony Green]

That's kind of the amazing thing about depending on how old you are, your relationship with a thing, because everything like Die Hard coming after that and everybody being like, this movie. I've read some reviews from that time of that film because I'm like, this was a masterpiece.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, people were tough on it.

[Mark Anthony Green]

People were tough on it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mark Anthony Green]

But if I watched all the movies before it, I probably wouldn't. It wouldn't have blown my hair back. But that movie made me want to make movies. Like, I left the theater as a kid being like, I want to make movies. I didn't know you could do that.

[Sean Fennessey]

So you spent a lot of time in your career before making movies in the world of style like you meant. You already name dropped John Paul Gaultier on this show.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I didn't name drop him. I said his name. There's a difference. You used to name drop would be like, yo, I hang out with Sean Finesse. That's a name drop saying, I'm a fan of somebody's I've never met that man. That's not a name drop.

[Sean Fennessey]

I just.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I got a name.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm surprised that's a person you haven't met, though, just given.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I have met John Gaugier. I'm saying I don't know him. That's not my man. I can't call him like I can call you. But you don't. Yeah, yeah, I have met John Paulier.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is a wonderful thing about knowing you is that I'm not surprised to learn that you know Jean Paul Gaultier.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Anyway, I worked at a fashion magazine forever. You know, I went to. I've been a fashion week or two.

[Sean Fennessey]

When you were thinking about trying to become a creative person. Like, you ended up at a magazine and you spent a long time at gq. All that time, obviously, it appears that you were plotting, scheming, creating in your mind behind the scenes, trying to get things going. But did you see the world of journalism and magazines as a portal to that? Was it a. How did you.

[Mark Anthony Green]

No, you know what? It was. For me, there are, like, four phases before I got here. There's Morehouse. Morehouse. I graduated from Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia, and Morehouse taught me the type of man I wanted to be.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which was what?

[Mark Anthony Green]

The man you see today. Somebody that is honest, that has integrity, that does things with style, that's not afraid, that has ambition, that cares deeply about his friends and family. Overly sensitive, will raise his voice, will stand on a table. Way more bark than bite. But I don't really bark that much. You know what I mean?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Um. I always smell good.

[Sean Fennessey]

That I can attest to.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. Like, you know, just like. I think they teach that at Morehouse.

[Sean Fennessey]

They did not teach that at Ithaca College, I gotta tell you.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. It's a different experience, though, I will say, like, we were not. I was not in, like, a classroom learning. I was learning everything outside a classroom. And then I worked at this clothing store, Sid Mashburn. And that's the first time I ever saw somebody do something at 100%. And it rocked my world.

[Sean Fennessey]

Should just briefly explain to the listeners who Sid is and what that is.

[Mark Anthony Green]

He's a designer in Atlanta, and I worked for him for free so that he would introduce me to somebody at gq. So he, like, created an internship program, and. But he just. This was his dream. He worked at ralph Lauren and L.L. bean and all these places, and it was the first time I ever saw somebody have a dream and chase it with 100% like a madman. And that. Oh. Opened up something for me. And then GQ was, to me, it taught me about both storytelling and taste and what my taste really was and, like, the mix of things. Like, if you look at Opus as a film, there's so much humor in the movie. But I think that the balance. Like, to me, it feels very balanced. And I don't know that I'm capable or want to make something that doesn't have that type of humor in it or a seriousness or, like, take on something important. And there's, like, a mix. Like, I think GQ taught me the value of the mix in addition to a lot of other things. So I carry that with me. But I don't know. I just. Your question of, you know, did I always see that this is what I wanted to do? Yeah. Since I was a kid. But I don't think that, like, being a magazine writer editor into filmmaker, that didn't. That I didn't look at that as, like, a. A path.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's interesting because there is a pretty long tradition of that path.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Really?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. You know, you have critics like Peter Bogdanovich or Paul Schrader who are basically just working critics, writing scripts, getting in the good graces of filmmakers, getting opportunities. And then you also have, like, folks like Robert Benton, who wrote Bonnie and Clyde, who is, like, an editor at Esquire.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Oh, I didn't know that. And he wrote the original Bonnie and Clyde.

[Sean Fennessey]

The original. Yeah, the 60s version.

[Mark Anthony Green]

This is that Sean Finessy shit. This is what. This is what we're here for.

[Sean Fennessey]

I tend to think.

[Mark Anthony Green]

No, no, stop, Sean. This is, ladies and gentlemen of the big picture. This is why the fuck we show up. We show up for him to do this nerdy shit right here. This is it. It's happening. Just making connections, real time. It's beautiful.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm putting you in a continuum.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I had no idea. I didn't know that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Of writer, magazine writer, editor voices. And I totally relate to what you're describing. That the mix. The balance in building the book, as we call it.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is. Is an aspect. Has relationship to making a movie. You got department heads and magazines. You got department heads on your movie. You got tone in your movie. You got tone in your issue or tone in the story that you're working on. You got photography. You got all these different component parts. And I thought about this a lot when I was watching your movie, which I'm just so proud of you for accomplishing. But I'm especially touched by it because the movie is about a print magazine journalist.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it's a very wry and sly about that and what it's like to be one of those people, which is kind of a dying breed as a gig.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

So tell me how, like, it informed the actual story itself, the actual, like, writing of Opus, the character that IO plays.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I look at it like this. Well, first of all, now that Opus is in the world, it's not my place to tell people how to opus. So, like, if this film to you is about not. Not you saying this, but if it's about journalism, then that's not, you know, my read on it and my intention on it. Opus is no more about journalism than it is than, you know, White Man Can't Jump is about basketball, the basketball. And White Man Can't Jump as far as, like, street basketball in la. The deferred dream of it all. They knocked it out. The part is accurate. And I think the journalism, that power dynamic, what it's like, what it looks like, what it smells like, the texture of it is very accurate because I lived that life for 13 years. And so that, to me is like, outside of making that aspect of it accurate, the thing that it tackles, I don't have a front row seat to, I think the thing that tackle we all are experiencing, which is tribalism and what I consider to be a global pandemic of, you know, tribalism. This thing that has gone too far, in my opinion. So. Yeah. So I don't know, I just wanted it to feel accurate.

[Sean Fennessey]

I felt like when I was working at GQ and even in some respects at Grantland and the Ringer, there's a part of the work that is trying to identify what is going to be next and cool. And then there's a part of the work that is trying to figure out, like, what is you, what is us.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Once you've determined what is cool.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And so I feel like what I really like about IO's character in the movie is like, she has. Seems to have, like, a real skepticism.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

About the whole enterprise.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I tend to find that, like, really good magazine editors, really good magazine writers are, like, really enthusiastic, but also, like, this is kind of bullshit.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. Especially when you're the youngest in the room. And when you and I worked together, I was the youngest in the room. And then I stayed to where I was like, you know, ancient, but I was the youngest in the room. So there were things that just excited people in that room that meant nothing to me. You know, like a story I've told is I didn't know who Bruce Springsteen was when I first got to GQ and we were in an ideas meeting and it's like the first cover meeting and everyone's freaking out about Bruce Springsteen. I'd never heard the man's name. Now I'm 36, 37 year old. I just turned 37. 37 year old black kid from the Midwest who went to hbcu. I didn't grow up in a house where we were listening to Bruce Springsteen. I didn't date girls that listen to Bruce Springsteen. I just never. He just never came across my desk, you know, so, yeah, so like, you know, everybody being like, this is the COVID that's gonna change the world. And then there's one person in the room that's like, I've never heard of him. I didn't say that. I didn't have the.

[Sean Fennessey]

That would take balls.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't have a juice to let them know I knew nothing about nothing. But, yeah, I think that there's real power in being the youngest person in the room. I think there's real power in being the person that is not intoxicated by whoever. And especially as a journalist, I think that you are able to genuinely maintain a level of objectivity, you know, like, I listened to Bruce Springsteen that day and I was like, I get it.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, you didn't turn yourself over to him, though.

[Mark Anthony Green]

This isn't Andre 3000. You know what I'm saying? This isn't. I wouldn't even say this is like fabulous, but this is tough. I know, I know. But, Sean, I came here to pod, baby. I told you I'll give you my best. And I'm just saying, like, you know, I listen to him and.

[Sean Fennessey]

Are you auditioning now for the music podcast?

[Mark Anthony Green]

Trust me, no, I will be. I'll be back on set. But look, I get it. You know, it's a thing. I told this story to John and to the crew because I felt like that was the challenge with Moretti. I went from that ideas meeting to the next meeting, and I asked Will Welsh. I was like, who is, you know, who is Bruce Springsteen? And he looked at me and was like, jesus Christ, who's this human I hired? But he had like 30 seconds to contextualize this person for me. And I felt like that's what we had. We had a very short amount of time to show you how big this pop star was for you to believe that he exists amongst, you know, Prince and Alice Cooper and David Bowie. And he's in, you know, Elton John and he's in this zone, you just haven't heard of him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Mark Anthony Green]

You know, and. But I need you to get it. And I got it. He may not be fabulous to you, but I get it. And so that was it. Because, you know, you get very little time to. For the exposition part of it. So. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I am very curious to hear the story of John Malkovich being a part of this movie. I'll give you an honest take with no disrespect to Malkovich, who is a legend.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hit or miss in the last 20 years for me.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Oh.

[Sean Fennessey]

100% iconic actor.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Obviously, his resume speaks for itself.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

But you never know what you're going to get these days.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I think he's on his, like, A plus game in your movie.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Thank you.

[Sean Fennessey]

And so maybe you can tell me how you got him to buy into the same spiel that will helped you explain in 30 seconds on who Bruce Springsteen is.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I think that this is one of Jon's best performances in his career, and I'm honored by that. I'm a huge fan of his. But, yeah, I think. I think he would say that's fair. There was a funny moment when, you know, there was an interview that I'm sure you saw, it went viral, and it's Matt Damon, and he's talking about John Malkovich showing up to the set of Rounders, and we shot opus in 19 days. And so I'm now at the point of planning where all of your financial issues, they're put on your plate as a director, and they're like, cool, you need to go figure this out. So I'm looking at the schedule that it's looking like we're going to land on and the lack of money that we have. And this interview with Matt Damon goes viral where he talks about John just showing up and deciding that the character was Russian, and so they had to go back and change. But Teddy KGB was just like, Theodore from wherever.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Benson Hurst.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. Yeah. And he showed up and does the whole thing. And I'm like, he can't do that with 19 days. Like, I'll never. It'll just. We won't finish this movie. And I love to plan and I love to rehearse. And I think that it gives everyone, all artists involved in a film, the freedom to try something when everything else is where it's supposed to be. So I call his agent, I puff my chest out, and I'm like, yo, I need to see John right now. I'm gonna come see him this week. Tell me where he is, but I'm on my way to see him. If he's shooting, you know, he's gotta make time. We gotta go to dinner. But I gotta see him this week, right? Hang up. So his agent, who I love, shout out to Brent. He calls me back and he's like, so John's in Riga, Latvia. And he says, sure, you can come, but, you know, let me know if you want this to be an email. And so, chest already puffed, can't unpuff it. So I'm like, no, no, no. Tell him I'm on my way to Riga. Hang up. I Google Riga, Latvia. Had never heard of it. Not quite fabulous either. You know what I'm saying? And at this time, I don't know, you know, but the war with Russia and the Ukraine is like. It's like two months in, and it is extremely dangerous. A little geographical fact for the folks at home. Russia used to own the Ukraine. I mean, used to own Latvia. And Riga is kind of a sensitive spot between the two. So when I go, I go to London first. Cause there was an actor for a different role that I wanted to see in a play. And my flight from London to Riga, I was the only person on the plane. I had never experienced that before. Like, I got on, they closed the door behind me. It was like, jesus Christ.

[Sean Fennessey]

This was just a commercial flight.

[Mark Anthony Green]

This was just a commercial flight. Yeah, yeah. But no one's going to the war zone. And so I got off the plane. There was a building that looked like it was from the last war. And they hadn't cleaned up yet. Like, it just. It was, like, blown up, and they just left it. My hotel was $115 a night. It's the nicest hotel in Riga. And so cool, you know, let's do it. And everyone's staring at me. So I go and I go to meet John for dinner, and I see him in the restaurant, and he's wearing an eye patch. I don't know if y'all have seen John in my film, but he does not have an eye patch. Spoiler alert. And so I sit down with him, and he's like, hey. I'm like, hey, what's up with the eye patch? And he's like, oh, you know, I had emergency surgery on my left eye. And they say it's 50, 50 if I get my vision back. And my right eye only has 20% of the vision. Never been a good math student, but I'm like, okay, so you have 10% of your total vision right now. And he's in Latvia directing a play and doesn't speak Latvian. I swear, I'm not making any of this up. And in fact, I'll give y'all a photo to put up. And so then he looks at me and he says, why the fuck are you here? And, you know, he says it, and it's Malkavelian, you know what I'm saying? And he's whatever, however. You.

[Sean Fennessey]

Malkovichian.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, Malkovichian. And so I'm like, I need you to see how serious I am and to know you're not gonna fuck up my movie. And silent. And he starts dying, laughing. He orders a bottle of wine. He didn't know I didn't drink at the time. So, you know, he didn't share the bottle. And we stayed up that whole night. The restaurant was really kind and let us just sit there and, you know, we basically talked until the sun came up about everything. He's from the Midwest, loves basketball. I grew up playing ball. But also talked about the character, why this movie was important to me, what I expected from him, that I expected him to bring it every day. And then I went to rehearsal with him the next day to see him direct these people in a language he doesn't speak with 10% of his vision and, dare I say, he was making choices and demanding things. And I think the play was getting better. So, you know, John Malkovich. And we had dinner that night, and ever since that moment, he brought an intensity to set to rehearsal. He was the best creative partner that I could have had on this.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think Moretti could have been very silly, maybe even stupid if not executed correctly.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Maybe it's a really tough. And, like, one of the mantras that I had on set with everyone is that this film is not camp. Now, if you watch this film and you're like, this was campy to me, that's totally fine. I'm not. Again, I'm not going to tell you how to opus. But I think if you start out that way, you could never get to someplace believable if you set out that, like, we have no intention on this feeling real or possible. And again, I watch him in this film. He is so fucking good and fearless and weird and interesting. And he's falling on the floor. And the man's 70. He was 70 when we shot. He's 71 now.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very physical performance for me. Very physical.

[Mark Anthony Green]

And he, you know, he would stretch constant. Like he had to physically get it up for this, to get there. But after that day in Riga that Wonderful night in Riga. Shout out to Latvia. We open in Latvia today, by the way.

[Sean Fennessey]

Really?

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. Shout out to all the Latvians.

[Sean Fennessey]

Are there a lot of. Is there a strong theater going, movie theater going, culture there?

[Mark Anthony Green]

I have no idea.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do we have Latvian listeners out there? Yes.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. Shout out to all the big pick, the Latvian.

[Sean Fennessey]

They're probably all like, CR Guys, you know, just a lot of CR heads.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I think, especially on that block. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's where.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, man, it was working with him again, one of the biggest honors of my 37 years so far.

[Sean Fennessey]

So you and I went out a few years ago, might have been pre pandemic, I can't remember. And you were wearing an Ichi the Killer T shirt.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I was like, what the fuck?

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I knew you liked movies and you'd been listening to the show. You sent me nice notes about the show. We talked movies. I'm sure 15 years ago we were talking about. Talking about movies, but I was like, I didn't know you were about that.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I clocked that and put it in the back of my head. And then I saw the movie and.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I was like, oh, yeah. Takashi Miike is like, obviously, it's all timer for me.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a huge thing for you. And I think if you, like, bring that, maybe if you just carry that knowledge to going to see the movie, I actually think it opens the movie up in some ways.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yes. Especially tonally and the pacing.

[Sean Fennessey]

But there's kind of like a sick sense of humor and also something very upsetting at its core, which, you know, as you know, knowing me, is also a thing that I really like and appreciate. But I was thinking about kind of like, what were your. Did you have Hallmarks? Did you have movies that you looked at or tried not to look at so you didn't rip them off or things that.

[Mark Anthony Green]

The audition was a big one for me, and that's the only true homage in the film.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, there's a very clear one.

[Mark Anthony Green]

There's a clear one. Yeah. But I love him. But the pacing in general, if I can say I set out to make a challenging film. One of the reasons I'm so excited to be here, in addition to loving you and listening to the pod, every episode is like. I think that the pacing, the format. Spoiler alert. No one dies in the first five minutes of this movie. And I'm so deeply proud of that. I'm so deeply proud of the fact that we made a horror film that lets you live with your Main character. I'm so deeply proud of the fact that that main character is a black woman and that you see her at home, you see her at work, you see her on a date with young Mizzino in one of the cutest scenes of the year. Like, you get to live with her. And another thing that Japanese horror films do that I'm deeply inspired by, when they do the gory thing, they go all the way. And so. And that's just kind of. I think it's a sensibility that I share with people with them, like, if you're gonna do it, go all the way. And that felt like. To get this message across, like a really. Both challenging because it's not your traditional paced horror film, but like challenging in a rewarding way. And I was deeply inspired by that. So, you know, Train of Busan, there's just a lot. A lot of those films. I think I constantly reference watch with my dp. Tommy Maddox, Upshaw. And then there were films that, like, you know, I don't want to give too much away, but in the folk horror genre, you have the classics, the Wicker Mans. I put Midsommar up there as a classic, a modern classic. And there were things that they did that we just didn't do because they did it. I. You know, they go off into a remote place and they take their cell phones. And outside of that, you know, to me it's like, cool, you know, like those devices that are fun and you got to get rid of the phones. So, you know. Yeah, I don't want to give away too much in that regard, but I think knowing what not to do, we did that a lot with the character, you know, like if Prince was known for something or like, I took wigs off the table because of David Bowie. I didn't want people to think, oh, he's David Bowie.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was trying to write down. I wrote down Prince, Bowie, Sly Stone, because of the kind of reclusive nature.

[Mark Anthony Green]

But I. Alice Cooper was a big. And I liked his theatrics a lot.

[Sean Fennessey]

Makes a lot of sense.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. But also Nile Rogers worked with Bowie. He made Less Dance with Bowie and a bunch of other great records. And.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, so, I mean, Nile Rogers and the Dream write the original songs. I've said it on this show a couple times that original songs for a fake pop star in a movie is like a recipe for disaster.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, it is.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, almost never goes well. Yeah, Their songs are extremely credible.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Obviously, you've got great, great writers and producers doing It. But how did you get them to do that?

[Mark Anthony Green]

I asked them really nicely. Okay, now here's the thing. Everybody that made this movie's underpaid, but nobody's more underpaid compared to what they get paid to do the thing that they do than Niall and Dream. There was a point in time where they were working with Beyonce and working with me, and then back to Beyonce and then back to me. Right? True, true story. And they had just won Cuff. It had come out the last hit that they wrote for her. And so they were working on Cowboy Carter at the time. And I had. I don't think we paid Dream and Niall enough to cover their, like, travel, like the way that they normally travel. That's how little we had in the budget to pay them. So you knew.

[Sean Fennessey]

You knew them.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I had met Dream a few times, yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

I profiled him in vibe magazine in 2007.

[Mark Anthony Green]

That's that Sean Est Finesse. Let's go, baby.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love Dream.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, yeah. And no, but, like, that's the thing that I think is a misconception about a lot of. You don't get to be that successful and that good if you're not still an artist at heart. So they read the script, then they sat down with me and I'm like, this is the thing I really want to do. And I believe in this. And I think John can pull this off. And I think that y'all are the people to do it. And then to their credit, not only are you trying to do a very difficult thing, like you said, and you're doing it for a. You're basically working for free, but then you gotta let me be demanding and choosy because it has to hit a certain standard. And not only does it have to hit a standard, but it has to fit in this movement. It can't just be a one off. Like it can't be its own thing. It can't just be a good record. It has to be a good record that services this story.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Mark Anthony Green]

And so they allowed me to be that, to direct them, to work with them, to collaborate with them. And the songs are fucking incredible.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that you have to be. It's very self possessed to be a filmmaker. I've interviewed a lot of filmmakers over the years and I've known you since you were young.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

And so I don't really know how you learned how to like fly to Latvia and tell John Malkovich, like, I need you to fucking focus. Or told Nile Rogers, like, this song needs to work better for my movie. That is something that people struggle with artists, and when they do do it, sometimes it comes across as, like, insecure and overbearing. So, like, how do you figure out how to do this? This is your first movie. You made short. You've been working towards this for a very long period of time. But I think actually doing that thing that you're describing, sticking to your guns, being a guy in his mid-30s, talking to people in their 70s who are legends, and telling them, I need you this to be what I want it to be. How did you do that?

[Mark Anthony Green]

I don't know. I mean, I don't. Like. I don't know that I can look at. I can't step out and look at myself.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, this is what being interviewed is all about.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I know, but I could talk to you about them. I don't know that I. I don't know. I really don't know. I think I just believe in this movie. This is my favorite thing. It just is. I'm so deeply proud of this film. I think it's so fun, so weird. It says something. It's just so not about me. So I can't wait to get on that plane to talk to whoever about it.

[Sean Fennessey]

When you were on set for the first time, or for any time really during the set, what was the number one thing that you were like? Shit, I didn't know it was like this.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I didn't know it was like this.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is the sort of. I don't know who Bruce Springsteen is of film directing for you.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Of film directing. You know, I didn't know that it. I didn't know that it was so controllable. If you want your set to run like a Parisian atelier, like, sorry, this is some fashion shit, but, like, you go to, like, an atelier where they're making very expensive clothes. It's silent, like in Phantom Thread, right? It's like you can hear a pin drop. There's one voice at a time. And if you want your set to run like that, it can run like that. If you want people to be miserable, then it can also run like that. You want it to feel like there's always, like, a boot on everybody's neck and. And it's chaotic. Whatever. It can feel like that. And I was surprised by how the tone, the vibe was really a reflection of, you know, me, my dp, my production designer, Robert Paizoca, who's incredible, like, the department head. Like, if we showed up and we had a great attitude, then everybody had a good time. And I believe the Work was better. And that also came from the actors, you know, IO, John, Juliet Lewis, Murray Bartlett, Tony Hale. You know, none of these people brought an ego into this. And, you know, Stephanie Suganami, who. This is really her first film. But, like, you know Stephanie, she's got more followers, quote unquote, than anybody in this movie. She could have come with a certain type of ego with all the prosthetics she, you know, she couldn't see for two days and never complained. You know, I had to go and check, just. And I think that we all kind of agreed. One, we don't have time or money to have an ego. But it felt so good making this movie. And I think I thought I was going to feel tortured during that part of the process.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'd seen the film compared to this, like, wave of Eat the rich movies, for lack of a better word, like Blink Twice or the menu popped up a bit.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I see the movie a little differently than that, but I. And I don't want you to have to feel like you have to give it away. But when I saw it, I was like. I think I wrote. I was very impressed, and I felt a little indicted.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I think that's because the movie has a strong point of view on not just that tribalism that you're talking about, but on, for lack of a better word, the media apparatus that attaches itself to fame and power and kind of like very. As gently as it can, siphons energy off of it to create their own little version of success.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a very small but complex and powerful idea that I relate to and understand. And I try to have some critical distance from myself. Having worked in magazines interviewing filmmakers, I do think it's a little bit of, like, a pipe bomb to put in front of the people who do this for a living.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I'm curious how conscious you were of that choice. And even if I'm reading the movie correctly, or if that's an incidental turn.

[Mark Anthony Green]

You gotta opus how you opus. And I'm just grateful that there has been such a strong reaction. I set out to make a challenging film. One thing I did not set out to do, nor does Marc Anthony the human believe, is that journalists are bad, that critics are bad, that media is backwards, or anything like that. So that's not how I read it. That's damn sure not how it was written or the intention. And I feel like, you know, with you on here, I want to be honest about, like, it did. It bummed me out for, like, A week that it got mixed reviews.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mark Anthony Green]

And that some people, not every critic, but some, felt like they were being attacked or challenged. Challenged, yes. But like they felt like they were being attacked by me. And that bummed me out.

[Sean Fennessey]

But ironic, having been a journalist. Well.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Cause I think to me, what I think it points out is how incredibly difficult that job is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mark Anthony Green]

To me, what it points out is a lot of the backwards thoughts that I had when I was 22 and ambitious and thought that I had it all figured out. If you are a critic that watched Opus and you didn't like it, I have no hard feelings. Like, I've done some interviews and, you know, it's like, fuck the critics and da, da. And I'm like, I don't subscribe to that. Like, if you didn't like it, again, no hard feelings. I hope I get you on the next one. I hope you like the next one. Right. But I think that the thing, the indictment is something we're all a little guilty of.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Mark Anthony Green]

And I set out to make a film that challenged us all and myself at the top of that list. And so I feel so deeply proud and accomplished in that challenge. And I invite you to go to a theater, have an amazing time, see John Malkovich dance and flail around. See Iowa Debery, give a fucking incredible performance. Listen to some incredible songs, do the thing that we all are listening to this pod because we love to do, which is to watch movies. And if you feel challenged in that, my hope is that it makes you ask questions. And as an artist, I don't pretend or posture to have the answers. Yeah. And I can't think of a more rewarding cinematic experience than going to a theater and feeling challenged. That's my favorite thing. That's what makes me want to make movies. That makes me love movies. It's not when you say the thing that I agree with, it's when I feel challenged. And I think they the reason that tribalism, which has gone well past entertainment, as we all know, I feel like it has created this division to where there is no nuance and there is no conversation and there is no, you know, it's all, my guy's bigger than your guy. And if you rock with my guy, you can do no wrong. And if you don't, then it's fuck you, and you can't do anything right. Yeah. And I just don't see the world that way. And so this film is the most. There's so much honey with the medicine, but it's the most fun Interrogation of that. And so I invite y'all to see that. And again, I come in peace.

[Sean Fennessey]

At the very beginning of this show, the pod, James Gray was on probably within the first year. We'd never met before, gotten to know him a little bit. Since then, he's been on the show multiple times.

[Mark Anthony Green]

You know, I've listened to every episode of this podcast.

[Sean Fennessey]

You told me. I know, it's like a little daunting.

[Mark Anthony Green]

No, no, no, no. It's into the progression of, like, figuring the form out, format out, pre Amanda. You know what I mean?

[Sean Fennessey]

A lot has happened.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's gotten a lot worse. Right?

[Mark Anthony Green]

It's really sick. No, I mean, you're just in your peak.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's not.

[Mark Anthony Green]

This is the prime.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm personally not. But maybe the show is. But anyway, I bring that up because I was talking to James on the show. It was going really well. It's like he's from the same part of Queens and my family's from. Same thing as when we're talking now. I'm just like, I know this guy. You know when you're just like, you're talking to somebody and you're just like, I know this guy. I know you've had this a million times with interviewing people over the years. And I asked him near the end of the conversation, I was like, you know, you've made a lot of great movies, but you've kind of taken some hits from critics over the years too. And you're like, beloved in France, but not as much in the United States.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I was like, what is that like to read someone write so specifically and so lethally about something that you poured your heart into? And he was just like, it hurts so much.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And not a lot of people had said that to me before. And then after I asked him that question, I asked a lot of directors that. And for, like years I would ask that question.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because there's like a real vulnerability to it, especially a lot of people who write movies, you know, not if you're making like Jurassic World, Rebirth. Right. If you're like, I'm a writer director.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I think that there is a misconception, again, if you didn't like, whatever. But there is a misconception that Opus was made. I've heard that Opus was made in a different way. Like, that it wasn't a first time filmmaker that gave everything that he had or she had, or they had to make this thing happen that, you know, that we didn't shoot in in 19 days, that it. That you Know, there was one report that said our budget was four times what the budget actually was. And I say, like, yes, any negative review, letterbox, whatever, like, it hurts. But I also feel like in my rookie season, I'm being held to a standard, that I'm okay. That I'm like, don't lower it. I'm okay with that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Now it's a good attitude.

[Mark Anthony Green]

It's genuinely how I feel. I also think this movie absolutely slaps. And I think that when you watch this film, you will be like, wow, that was fun. And yes, John is incredible. IO is incredible. You know, whatever. I think that there's so much good and this. So proud of this film. So there isn't like a. I'm just excited that people are finally getting to see it. And I want to know what everyone thinks. I think that it's a little, you know, the thing that they teach you that people who love me have said before enduring this process is do not read the reviews. But the film. There's like an Emperor's New Clothes parable inside of Obis. And it feels somewhat hypocritical for me to section myself off and to not read reviews because some of them are mixed. I think James, like, you know, he's a great example of a director that I think takes big swings and makes interesting things. And this is what I think we're here for. We love original films and we love when people take swings and, you know, when things are a little messy and challenging. And I love this film. And so I'm not. I mean, like I said, I was bummed for about a week. Truly bummed. But I was like, cool, you know, And I think every director, you really make the movie for yourself. I made this film for that kid that watched the Fifth Element. That's like, I didn't know you could put a blue alien on stage singing opera hip hop and then have somebody pull stones out of her that saved the world. I didn't know you could do that. And to that little kid. He is having the time of his life.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you. I always ask directors, like, what are you gonna do next?

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

After their movie comes out. And there's like a lot of ways this can go. And you and I have not really talked about it. We had like a three minute conversation about it.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

At a birthday party. At a child's birthday party.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. Shout out to my man. Knock. Okay. He is in this world and I believe in him. He's the reason we go. We do it. Yeah. I promised myself this was Like, I don't know, maybe October, September, October of last year. I have never. When I made my short eight years ago, I knew that this is what I wanted to dedicate myself to. Nothing had kind of checked every box and scratched every itch for me, and I made this short. I went into debt making the short and never had more fun in my life and never felt more satisfied. So I'm like, okay, cool, you found the thing. Now you gotta just figure out how to do it and how to do it enough to get good at it, and then, you know, hopefully you'll be great at it one day. And so I promised myself that I would make something immediately after so that I was, like, working during this part of the process. So I'm making this film. It's about a man who's haunted by ducks, and it's a dark comedy, and I'm deeply, deeply excited and proud of it, and it's going to be really, really fun. So I've been working on that and assembling the team, and yeah, it's totally different than Opus and a very different. Tonally, it's. Yeah, it's just a different thing and says a different thing and a new challenge. But, yeah, let me ask you one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Last question about that.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Of course.

[Sean Fennessey]

So Opus, the trajectory of that movie is like, over six years.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yes, six years.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very long development. Where it was, where it ended up, all that stuff takes a long period of time. Through some of that time, you were working at gq.

[Mark Anthony Green]

At a certain point, I did most of it.

[Sean Fennessey]

At a certain point, you stopped to make the movie. But now you don't have the, like, life raft of your former career.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, I don't.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're like, in the new era of your professional life.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And, you know, Brady Courbet talked about this on this podcast that, like, directing movies is not necessarily, if you're doing what you want, want to do, the most profitable enterprise. A lot of directors, independent filmmakers. Well, Sean Baker has obviously been talking about this quite a bit recently. It's not easy if you're a stick to your guns kind of person with a strong vision and wanting to do things with some level of control. So, like, how do you make money? How do you pay your rent?

[Mark Anthony Green]

There's two things. One, again, this is my rookie year, so when I drive to the paint and I get fouled, I can't bitch about that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mark Anthony Green]

When Sean Baker, who's been making interesting, wonderful, like, films that really get under your skin for 20 years, he's allowed to stand on A stage. And to say I should make more money. And, by God, Shawn Baker should make more money. We should figure it out. There should be some type of governmental grant, some type of subsidy, whatever.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nations have this.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yes, they do. They do. It sounds crazy, but they literally do. And you're like, you add value to the world, and we are gonna have one less tank, and Shawn Baker's gonna get to make five more movies or live in a comfortable house, like, whatever you wanna do with it. And so I don't think it's, like. It's just not my place to be up here and to be like, I'm complaining about how much money I'm not making or whatever.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's not what I mean.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not trying to set you up for that.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I know how it. No, no, no, no. I know ain't nobody, brother. You would never.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wouldn't.

[Mark Anthony Green]

So I'm saying the next thing I'm saying. I don't want it to sound like a complaint because I genuinely do not have that. I think, what. As a director, you know, what did Hawthorne say? You know, families are always rising and falling. I feel like there was a point in time, you know, when, like, the American Zoetrope cats, like, they weren't making money at first. And before that, directors really didn't make money. And then it went crazy. And you're getting paid, you know, millions and millions of dollars. And the box office is a global, massive thing that we track and, you know, and now it feels like that's less of the thing. It's like, if you made jazz before the boom, jazz during the boom, and then jazz after. I say this. I'm a jazz musician. I am a filmmaker. If being a filmmaker means that I will make very little money and I'll have to figure out how to buy the clothes I want. I think before. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I knew that was the first thing you were gonna read. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But you know how to hustle.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah. I'm just saying, if I gotta figure it out, if I'm on ebay to get the sweater that I want two years later, because that's really the sweater that I want, and I don't have that. I'm not. It is not like, some financial thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Again, that is the person that I knew in 2010. That's the same in 2010. I was like, how is this broke kid so well dressed? This is insane to man.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Listen, you figure out your angles, and you don't accept the life. You don't Want and all that I'm saying. And it's just this is the greatest gift that I've. That, like, I found a thing that makes me feel this good. And so I don't know if you're a young filmmaker, I think I'm in no position to give you advice. The thing that I will say that I would just keep in mind is every day that I went to set, every day I went to the edit, every time I got a note from the studio, every time I read a review, be it good, be it bad, be it mixed, every time I got to sit down and talk to somebody like yourself, who I genuinely respect. Throughout every day of this process, there is a base level of happiness that I have because this is what the fuck I want to do. If that means that I don't make as much money as whoever who was making movies in the 90s, cool, man. You know, that's a bummer. I love money. That'd be sick.

[Sean Fennessey]

But like, Oz Perkins said a similar thing when he was here. He was like, I do do this to make some money.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, I need to. Yeah, you wanna. You also don't want other people to make money on the thing and you not make money.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a whole other.

[Mark Anthony Green]

That's a whole other. And that's not what I'm talking about.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is gonna happen too, but that's part of the game.

[Mark Anthony Green]

But I'm saying, like, rookie season, you know, keep in mind why you would want the monies to make you happy. And I sit here with this film out now, and I've never been happier. So, you know. Mm.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mark Anthony Green. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen?

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yes. I wanted to say an honest answer. I obviously was thinking about that on the way here, and then I was like, do I say something?

[Sean Fennessey]

You try to flex on me with.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Something you want to not flex. But I was like, oh, because the thing isn't, like out yet, but it is the answer and it should be out soon. A very talented director, homie of mine, her name is India Slim and she made this short, it's a coming of age short called Crust, and the BBC produced it. And it is so deeply beautiful and moving. I don't know when it's out, but I just saw. It's the last thing that I saw and it really, really moved me. And she's so talented and I love short films and I just.

[Sean Fennessey]

Have you spoken with Amanda about that, about short films and her relationship to Them.

[Mark Anthony Green]

She hates short films or something.

[Sean Fennessey]

She thinks they shouldn't be on the Oscars.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Well. Well, I'll say this as sergeant of Arms of the DOB Mob, like, I'm not gonna go against my og, so, you know, I can't do that, especially not here, you know? But, yeah, it's beautiful crust, and I'm excited for that, to find its place in the world and for y'all to see her first kind of like, narrative thing. So.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thanks for being here, man.

[Mark Anthony Green]

This was such an honor to me.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, we did have a conversation about what this would be like, like, seven years ago.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Would it be weird?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I wasn't worried about that. I was just like, I can't wait to see the movie. I think I said that to you probably 10 times.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Yeah, yeah, I was.

[Sean Fennessey]

And you held it for me for a long time.

[Mark Anthony Green]

I did. I needed it to be right and to just have it done. And also the thing that I'll say is, like, it takes. There was no part of this process that wasn't like, physically carrying a thing over a line. That was surprising to me that it never went into autopilot, but that you are at every step, every filmmaker, unless you are again, making some massive thing that has hundreds of millions of dollars to throw out a problem and all the things you were just like, cool. We have to physically carry this thing over the line. And I love that. But I couldn't have you see it until she was ready. And now all of y'all get to see it because she's ready.

[Sean Fennessey]

I can't wait to see it again. Congratulations.

[Mark Anthony Green]

Thank you, brother.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you to Mark Anthony Green. Thank you to CR and Amanda. Thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on this episode. Thanks to Jack Sanders for his work as well.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Thanks to Christopher Nolan.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thanks to. To the Odyssey are for yet another vigilant update.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It really is funny that on IMDb the writers are listed as Homer and Christopher Nolan. I hope that. That. I hope those are the credits story by Homer.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I just hope Homer's relatives are getting residual.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I hope there is, like, a guy, like, working at a. In a. Like a market in Athens who's like, I'm going to go to WGA arbitration because my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather wrote.

[Sean Fennessey]

This could be the first shot in the Oscar campaign against the Odyssey, which is no doubt coming later this week. As I mentioned, 25 for 25 begins.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I wish you guys the best on this project. I can't wait to listen.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thanks so much, Chris. We'll see you then.