The Final Best Picture Power Rankings and a ‘Sinners’ Second Look With Autumn Durald Arkapaw!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture

Episode: The Final Best Picture Power Rankings and a ‘Sinners’ Second Look with Autumn Durald Arkapaw!
Date: February 24, 2026
Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins
Guest: Autumn Durald Arkapaw (Oscar-nominated cinematographer, Sinners)

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Episode Overview

This episode is a jam-packed, insightful Oscars deep-dive, focusing on the final 2026 Best Picture Power Rankings, BAFTA results, and an in-depth revisit of Sinners—already the most Oscar-nominated film in history. The hosts analyze the current state of the 2026 Oscar race across major and minor categories, discuss new and under-the-radar film releases, and cap off the episode with a rich, technical conversation with cinematographer Autumn Durald Arkapaw about her path, process, and the visual language of Sinners.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. BAFTA Recap & Oscar Implications

[03:26–16:00]

• BAFTAs Results: One Battle After Another won Best Film, director, and cinematography, while Sinners won three—Original Score, Original Screenplay, and Supporting Actress (Wunmi Mosaku).
• Unpredictable Acting Races: The acting categories remain "wide open," with the BAFTAs showing little consensus. "Pretty much every acting category except for Actress is open" (Amanda, 04:18).
• Surprise Winners: Robert Aramayo's BAFTA win for I Swear was unexpected and hints at a volatile Best Actor race, possibly weakening Timothée Chalamet's position.
• Genre Trends: Increasing genre acceptance at the Oscars, with Sinners heavily drawing from horror and musical traditions.

2. The State of the Oscar Race: Best Picture Power Rankings

[68:42–87:20]

• Final Rankings:
  1. One Battle After Another
  2. Sinners
  3. Hamnet
  4. Sentimental Value
  5. Frankenstein
  6. Marty Supreme
  7. Secret Agent
  8. F1
  9. Train Dreams
  10. Begonia
• Metrics: Ranking is based on both awarded prizes so far and odds to win at the Oscars—sentimentality, momentum, and below-the-line/"craft" categories heavily weigh in.
• Unpredictability Noted: "Any of them could win. It could go anywhere." (Sean, 10:06)
• Fun Commentary: Hosts reflect on the futility yet addictive nature of awards forecasting: "All awards prognostication is pointless…That being said, I don’t hear you." (Sean, 71:32)

3. Sinners Revisited: Thematic and Structural Analysis

[26:42–66:04]

• First Woman of Color for Cinematography: Notable recognition of Autumn Durald Arkapaw’s nomination and historical context.
• Genre Layering and Subversion: Vampire horror, musical, and historic drama interweave—hosts emphasize the movie’s success in transcending its genre elements, e.g. "the vampires don’t matter at all…they do, and it's a very cool idea…but my attention was almost waning a little as they kept jumping on each other." (Amanda, 28:34)
• Metaphor & Meaning: Vampires as a metaphor for appropriation of Black art and culture, drawing intricate parallels to American and cinematic history.
• Formal Brilliance: Praised for production, costume design (Ruth Carter, Hannah Beechler), and Autumn’s lush, immersive cinematography—"so much world is built into what is a one night only movie" (Amanda, 37:26).
• Genre Comparisons: Fairly discussed alongside From Dusk Till Dawn, The Thing, and Assault on Precinct 13—the team pushes back on simplistic readings as mere homage.
• Sex, Music, and Spirituality: The film is lauded for nuanced sensuality and blending of spiritual, sexual, and artistic longing—"there are different ways to feel and live in this world…music, spirituality, sex" (Amanda, 45:20).
• Oscar Prognosis: Despite genre elements, anticipated to pick up at least screenplay and score, with strong shots at craft nominations.
• Open-Ended Resolution: Hosts praise the post-credits sequence and ambiguous, non-didactic ending.

Notable Quotes:

• "It is a very cool idea that the vampires represent…the ownership of art and Black art specifically." — Amanda, 28:34
• "I’m generally with you that the actual vampire mayhem…is the least successful stuff in the movie." — Sean, 36:54

4. Reviews: How to Make a Killing

[16:11–25:17]

• Quick Take: A “fun, easy to hang out with” genre caper featuring Glen Powell. Observed tonal clash yet positive on John Patton Ford’s direction and socio-economic satire.
• "I like watching Glen Powell... rooting for him despite the circumstances" (Amanda, 17:07).
• Margaret Qualley’s Performance: Divisive choice, but acknowledged as intentional.

5. Autumn Durald Arkapaw: Cinematographer Interview

[92:22–145:09]

Background & Path to Cinematography

• Cites The Last Emperor as a formative influence: "I want to feel like I’m making a movie…that movie felt like that. It was, like, beyond me." (Autumn, 93:10).
• Outlines unconventional career path, including art history, advertising, and film school at AFI, with persistence after rejection.

Craft & Collaboration

• Emphasis on trusting, collaborative environments (Panther, Sinners)—values aligned visions: "I'm there to support that person. That’s my job and their vision." (Autumn, 106:56)
• Partnership with directors (Ryan Coogler, Gia Coppola): Different workflows but always rooted in emotion, detailed technical work in preproduction, and clear communication.

Technical Mastery & Philosophy

• Anamorphic Lenses & Framing:
  • “Anamorphic…makes me feel differently. It’s…a feeling.” (115:34)
  • Center-framing as signature: “I always put the character in the center of frame… it's an elegant way of framing, but it’s also something that feels right to me.” (119:15)
• Multiple Formats & Exhibition:
  • Worked in Ultra Panavision 70, IMAX 65—explains how various aspect ratios and cinema projection impact composition and viewer experience.
  • “If you do center punch…when you go to do your extraction…the person is still centered in the frame.” (124:03)
• Lighting & Representation:
  • On lighting actors of different skin tones: "I like to light Black people in a certain way that makes them look beautiful. I don’t feel like…you have to shed a lot of light and over-light them because someone’s afraid they’re going to go into darkness…there’s reflective qualities of darker skin that are also beautiful." (135:10)
• Biggest Challenge:
  • The VFX-heavy river fight finale: “It takes a lot of time and can be very tedious…that was the hardest scene…” (129:07)
• On Set Energy:
  • “You just know” when you’ve captured a special take—requires deep mutual understanding, technical skills, and emotional intuition. (131:01)
• Inspiration:
  • Recent greats: Lawrence of Arabia (“does it every time to me…this is the frame that I have in my head all the time”—145:07).

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Key Timestamps of Memorable Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:26 | Discussion of BAFTA Best Film winner and acting race unpredictability | | 10:06 | “Any of them could win. It could go anywhere.” — Oscar Best Supporting Actor race | | 26:42 | Transition to deep Sinners analysis and personal reflections on its cultural status | | 40:00 | Coogler’s intertextuality — referencing From Dusk Till Dawn, The Thing, etc. | | 45:20 | “There are different ways to feel and live in this world…” — Amanda on film’s sensuality | | 115:34 | Autumn on the emotional value and feeling evoked by anamorphic lenses | | 120:26 | Autumn and Sean on center-framing and the effects on star iconography | | 135:10 | Lighting Black actors authentically — Autumn on representation in cinematography | | 143:25 | Autumn’s most recent visual inspiration: Lawrence of Arabia |

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Acting Categories:
  “Pretty much every acting category except for Actress is open.” — Amanda (04:18)
  “It would be pretty wild for Sean Penn to become one of the very few actors to win three Academy Awards.” — Sean (08:26)

• On Sinners:
  “It’s a very cool idea that the vampires represent…the ownership of art and Black art specifically.” — Amanda (28:34)
  “You just know…when you’re working with this caliber of actors and you know how Ryan works with them on set, you can feel it.” — Autumn (132:12)

• Technical Insight:
  “I always put the character in the center of frame…it’s how I like to frame, to be honest.” — Autumn (119:15)

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Tone and Style

The episode is analytical, accessible, and nerdy in the best possible way. Sean and Amanda’s dynamic is playful but deeply knowledgeable, balancing award season chess with cultural and aesthetic commentary. They maintain respect for both studio spectacle and innovative, daring filmmaking. Autumn Durald Arkapaw brings warmth and humility, providing technical explanations in a straightforward manner without losing the romantic, emotional core of her craft.

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For Further Listening

• Check out:

  • Earlier Sinners deep dives (April 2025)
  • Upcoming Nirvana the Band the Movie episode w/ filmmaker interview

• Best Picture Power Rankings:
  Be ready for more shuffling post-PGA and SAG next week!

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Transcript

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Explore what's possible.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Sean Fennesee]

I'm Sean Fennesee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is the

[Sean Fennesee]

Big Picture 8 conversation show about the home stretch. Today on the show we will revisit Sinners, the most nominated movie in the history of the Academy Awards. Nearly one year after its release. We will construct our very last best picture power rankings of the season and discuss the BAFTA results from over the weekend. Those crazy Brits, they did some stuff with their awards show. Later in the show I have a conversation with Autumn Derald Arkapaw, the Oscar nominated cinematographer of Sinners. It's her second collaboration with Ryan Coogler. Autumn has had a fascinating path to this moment and we discussed a whole lot of stuff including the technical aspects of her work on Sinners, her arc as a cinematographer. We talked about cameras, lenses, aspect ratios, all your favorite stuff.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I actually am very excited to listen to it because Sinners is a film that looks good. It's true, in a time when most don't. So I would like to hear what she has to say.

[Sean Fennesee]

Autumn, very smart and confident guest. One of the better conversations we've had here recently. I hope you will stick around. She's already made history. She's the first woman of color nominated for Best Cinematography at the Academy Awards, which is shameful, but she also has a chance to win and so we will talk about her chances there too. But first let's talk about the BAFTAs right after this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This episode of the Big Picture is presented by State Farm.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know those friends who show up for whatever you're into, the ones who'll debate which superhero universe is better or binge true crime documentaries with you at three in the morning. Those friends are gold.

[Amanda Dobbins]

State Farm is like that. Helping you figure out the coverage that actually fits. Car, home life, whatever you need, they've got your back. And if you want a hand, a local agent is just a tap away

[Sean Fennesee]

on their award winning app like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did I throw you off there?

[Sean Fennesee]

Nope. You were great.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, thank you so much.

[Sean Fennesee]

You're letting me stretch out and close me in as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I love hearing about lenses when Autumn Durrell de Archipas or Ben Affleck talk about them.

[Sean Fennesee]

So when a woman or a man you want to be near, when it's me, not so much.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I saw he was at the golf.

[Sean Fennesee]

He was at the golf. Oh, at Riv over the weekend. Yeah, the Riviera. I didn't see any of the golf this weekend, unfortunately. I did see the hockey. Did you see the hockey?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did see. I saw the hockey.

[Sean Fennesee]

And usa, huh? What do you know? We still got the juice.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Broken clock. Right? Right. Once a day while my children are watching.

[Sean Fennesee]

First time in 46 years the USA Hockey was right. And we're happy to see it. Okay, baftas. So let's just start with the. With the big award. One battle after another. One best film. We're looking very closely at this final corridor of guild and international awards because this is the first of the next big three, which is of course the actor awards next Sunday and the PGA's next Saturday. And then all the precursors for the

[Amanda Dobbins]

most part are done and voting begins.

[Sean Fennesee]

And voting will begin. And one battle won. And we're going to talk about Sinners. And one of the reasons why we wanted to revisit Sinners was you hadn't seen the film in full. One of the other reasons why was because it's just, it's now become this not on purpose.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I'd like to talk about some changes that they made that I thought were very smart.

[Sean Fennesee]

We can do that. But one battle winning here. What does. What does that tell you? Anything? Nothing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think we're focusing. I think we're stirring up intrigue in the wrong categories. And I would just wanted to propose that to you. I still don't feel 100% about one battle after another over Sinners and Best Picture. I do think that that could go either way. But what the baftas said to me were that pretty much every acting category except for actress is open. Yes, I think some are more open than others. I think that the baftas are not always the most predictive and can get a little silly or silly even in Best Picture.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think in Best Film, they've only matched two out of the last 14 years. So, like, it's not a historically predictive race, except maybe for below the line. I do think below the line shows us the way in a lot of these races. But you're right about the acting races. Like, everything is up in the air right now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So my response to this slate was not, oh, it's a lock for best for one battle. But more, I haven't spent enough time worrying about supporting actor and supporting actress and maybe even actor, which I have been flummoxed about and don't, like, feel totally certain. And again, there's There. There are no conclusive results at this point. Next weekend, I think with the PGAs and the actors will help. It will help in different categories, but weird things can still happen. You're right.

[Sean Fennesee]

There's all these variables that are going on in the acting races that have made this. I thought this was going to be one of the most boring Oscar seasons in years. And you, you heard me. In January and December being like, oh, another round. And now it's turning out to be, or at least seemingly very interesting. We might end up with Timothee Chalamet, Stellan Skarsgard, Teyana Taylor, and Jesse Buckley, and the acting wins. And then that'll be like, okay, well, that's more or less what I thought was gonna happen in November. But as we saw on Sunday, Wonmi Masaku won supporting actress for Sinners, which is fascinating. She's also nominated at sag, right? Yes. So that's also notable in supporting actor, Sean Penn won. Now, I've been nudging you on this a little bit over the last few months.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know. And I saw you were posting over the years.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, I posted about it. You know, I've been.

[Amanda Dobbins]

When did you post that? Because we had a lovely Saturday afternoon at. Sunday afternoon at your home.

[Sean Fennesee]

Oh, yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then I saw that you posted and I was like, were you?

[Sean Fennesee]

It was in transit from the Huntington Gardens where we celebrated the Lunar New Year.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Oh, cool. With my family and my sister Kara, who was in town, which is great. Between that and the barbecue at our house.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Just some stray thoughts I had.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I just. I didn't check till later that night because I really thought you were, like, hiding at the, you know, at the grill or being like, no, I'm getting more hot dog buns.

[Sean Fennesee]

Something I Know, you relate to classic thing where when you've got extended family in town, they can watch your kid for a minute and then you might have a thought about an acting race. And I had a thought and I just threw it up on x dot com. Um, Sean Penn winning is just really interesting. I thought Stellan Skarsgard would have won here. I have thought he was the front runner in this race. You know, you've been banging the drum for Benicio Del Toro for some time. There have been some people who have been speculating that the pen win indicates maybe weirdly, an opportunity for Delroy Lindo, because there's no consensus here. And so maybe the one battle guys cancel each other out. Paul Mescal not winning here is interesting. He's not represented at the Academy Awards. This race is wide open. My case for Penn, as I've mentioned before, is just sure, he's won twice, but he's one of the most revered actors of his generation. He may not be like the most politically beloved figure in the Academy, but I think to multiple generations of actors, he's seen as like a real titan. And also the Academy Awards loves a villain. You know, this is the Academy that gave Heath Ledger for the Joker, the Oscar.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

They gave Javier Bardem the Oscar. Not a villain in the race.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, exactly. Which, you know, depending on where you're sitting, like maybe Jean Pennez again, according to your politics or your just enforcement of Los Angeles smoking and doors laws.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, he.

[Sean Fennesee]

Frankly, I love Sean Penn as an actor, and I think he's amazing in one battle. It's a very showy performance, a very noisy performance. But, you know, it's like, that's what usually. Christoph Waltz from Glorious Basterds. That's what wins here. It's very memorable. People who are right outside the edge of the center role in the film who tend to drive a lot of action. That's what often wins in this category. It would be pretty wild for Sean Penn to become one of the very few actors to win three Academy Awards, but Frances McDormand just did it a few years ago.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And it would make sense in terms of how Hollywood and actors feel about him and the way that the Oscars do tend to reward certain types of performances and certain types of people. We haven't said. So Elordi still in the mix? Yes or no?

[Sean Fennesee]

I think. I think he's in play for sag. I think that could happen.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then if that happens at Saga, that's a real boost in terms of

[Sean Fennesee]

SAG is also On Netflix. And that's a Netflix movie. And also, the people who vote in sag, remember, are not just actors. They're also, like, weathermen and influencers. Like, because it's sag, Aftra and you and. Well, I'm not in sag. No, thankfully. Although we should probably be in SAG

[Amanda Dobbins]

at this point, among other things.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, I think Elordi could definitely win there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Who is the fifth person? Who am I not thinking of? Stellan Benicio. Sean A Lordy. And who is our fifth person who's

[Sean Fennesee]

literally who's just not nominated at SAG even.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. No, I meant at the Oscars. Who is the. Who is it? It's not Paul Mescal. Delroy Lindo.

[Sean Fennesee]

Of course.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Of course. Okay. So it could go anywhere.

[Sean Fennesee]

Any of them could win. It could go anywhere.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's great. I think it's probably not Benicio at this point, which is sad that he had, like, a real critics run and then he did. And then it fell off.

[Sean Fennesee]

He did. I'm not ruling anything out. I think this is gonna be really fun to predict this year. Supporting actress similarly, is wide open. You know, the two actresses from Sentimental Value are not represented at sag. You know, there was a moment when we were like, oh, it's Inga Ib's daughter, Lilias. Oh, you know, now it's like, could Winmi Masaku win in this category for Aang. We can talk about her character when we talk about that film. Seems like that could happen.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. Especially if she goes BAFTAs and then SAG actor awards, whatever we're calling them, and then. And straight into to voting.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I think also if that happens, then you could feel the momentum also saying, why not Delroy Lindo? And then I do think that has a real up the ballot swing for Sinners.

[Sean Fennesee]

That would be one of the ways in which you could see that it is happening. And we'll know because those are two of the earliest awards that are given out. If we get two Sinners acting awards in the first 20 minutes of the telecast.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Everybody's gonna spend the next three hours being like, well, sinners did it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

So that'll be really interesting. So Sinners won three baftas, which is, I think, more than I would have guessed. I don't think I would have guessed that the one Mi Masaku. I didn't do any predictions for bafta, but score makes sense. Original screenplay does make sense to me. I would not have guessed that one Mi Masaka would win, but that feels open. And then let's talk about actor.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

So Robert Aramayo won for I Swear, which is a film about a man based on a true story about a man who has Tourette's and his family. And this film won multiple awards at this award show. It's obviously not been represented at any other award show we've been talking about over the last few months. And so it's not out here in

[Amanda Dobbins]

the US Until April.

[Sean Fennesee]

April, that's right. So we haven't even seen it yet. Verta's quite good. I'm curious to see it. But this is just another wrinkle in a race that I think maybe we thought was over two months ago. And now. And now is Timothee Chalamet a little weak or at least weaker than we thought? Marty supreme won zero awards last night. I think it went zero for 11, which is not great. And is Marty supreme suddenly going to become the Irishman of this year? That's in play. We shall see, I think. Does it open the possibility for Wagner Mora, for Leonardo DiCaprio?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, Wagner Mora is also not nominated at SAG Actor Awards.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it's. If I think it closes the door for Vognamura, it's what I think. Personally, I could be wrong, and you and I have both been wrong. Speaking against the power of Brazil many

[Sean Fennesee]

times on this podcast, I've spoken no words against Brazil, and I never will.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But he didn't get BAFTA and he's not eligible. He's not nominated at SAGs, so he's not going to be in front of people again.

[Sean Fennesee]

The other thing is that Sentimental Value won International Feature at bafta, which is also a challenge for the Secret Agent, which I think I thought was going to be a little bit stronger through this race. And I think we talked about that at the Golden Globes, but this has really been moving around. My gut still tells me it's still Timothee Chalamet. The one thing against that, I think, is that no person, since whatever it is, 1990, I think, is when the SAG Awards started, has won two years in a row. And so Chalamet won last year, so it would be unprecedented for him to win. We will see in a week from now. Jesse Buckley, Turtles all the Way down, man. She's just. She is. This is one of the most dominant performances in an awards campaign that I've ever seen. I think people knew the moment they saw the movie nine months ago that this was over. And that's really interesting below the line stuff, you know, I think One Battle winning at cinematography is interesting, particularly because I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but you know, Michael Bauman is the credited cinematographer. He is the cinematographer of the film. And on the previous Paul Thomas Anderson movie he was co credited as a cinematographer with Paul Thomas Anderson. And on the previous Paul Thomas Anderson film, Michael Bauman worked as a gaffer on that film or maybe as like a coordinator. But PTA got the cinematography credit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

And so along with Colin Anderson, who's this camera operator who you may have heard Ben Affleck talking about in his conversations with Josh Safdie, Colin Anderson also worked on Marty Supreme. Those three guys make this kind of three headed monster of cinematography. Even though Bauman, who I've heard is great, and actually Matt Johnson from Nirvana the band the movie, was here talking about it because he shot his new movie Tony with him. But anyway, awarding this group as opposed to an individual is kind of fascinating if indeed Bauman goes on to win the Oscar. I have been thinking it's going to be Autumn Derald Arkhipas, I believe she's the favorite in the Oscar race.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I have as well, but I mean it is. Sinners did win three awards at the BAFTAs, but you know, one battle won best picture, best director and cinematography. And did PTA won adapted screenplay. He did, yeah. So there still is.

[Sean Fennesee]

And editing as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right? There is a real strength there above and below the line, even if it was overlooked and you throw in Sean Penn and you're like, oh, okay. There is a lot of enthusiasm for this.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, it's interesting. Couple awards for Frankenstein, of course, which we think we'll see at the Academy Awards. Production design, makeup and hair. Costume design, F1 for sound.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, Vroom, vroom.

[Sean Fennesee]

Makes sense. Can see that. Special visual effects, Avatar, fire and ash. Big Jim.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay, we'll save the rest of our conversation when we get into our best picture power rankings. Let's talk about a new release. It kind of flew under the radar and it flew under the radar because it got dumped. Fascinatingly dumped. We can talk about why it's been dumped. I think you and I kind of landed in the same place with this movie. So the movie is how to Make a Killing. It's the new film from John Patton Ford who wrote and directed a movie a few years ago called Emily the Criminal, which you and I both enjoyed. Who is the star of that movie? Why is that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Aubrey Plaza.

[Sean Fennesee]

Aubrey Plaza. Thank you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then Theo Rossi, I believe was the supporting performance that we love. I think we gave a alternative big pick to Theo Rossi.

[Sean Fennesee]

We did. This new movie is a kind of soft adaptation or inspiration off of the 1949 British film Kind Hearts and Coronets, which is kind of a caper comedy classic starring Alec Guinness, which is also inspired by a 1907 novel called Israel Rank, the Autobiography of a Criminal. This new movie, of course, stars our guy. Glenn Powell, Margaret Qualley, Jessica Henwick, Bill Camp, Zach Woods, Topher Grace, Ed Harris. Really good cast. It's an A24 movie, and the premise is as follows. Disowned at birth by his wealthy family, Beckett Redfellow, great name, will stop at nothing to reclaim his inheritance, no matter how many relatives stand in his way. So not a lot of people saw this movie. It opened in fewer than 2,000 theaters despite its wide release status. What did you think of how to Make a Killing?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Listen, I called my shot in 2016, called it again in 2018. I like watching Glen Powell. I really, I do. And it's been interesting to watch him try to find the right roles for him. And I think that this one is closer than some recent choices, specifically the Running man, in which it has a fair amount in common.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yep.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And maybe not 100% there, but he's watchable. I was rooting for him despite the circumstances of the film, which the film needs to succeed. And then I. I really like John Patton Ford. And I think he has a real knack for what you could dismiss as like another eat the rich movie. And, you know, Top Line has some of that element. Yeah, like many rich people get creatively murdered, but is way more specifically observed. I think he really understands the distance from that world that his characters feel and the anxiety and the anger. And Ken also. And also has a sense of humor about the very rich people, even as he convincingly portrays that they are ruining society at large and also all of our insides. So I thought it was strange and worked and I liked it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, I think it's pretty good. I'll start with the negatives. There's an inherent tonal clash that is a little hard to navigate because it is a movie about murder and it is also a farce, but also feels like a kind of deeply felt story about class. There are times when you're like, how seriously am I supposed to be taking this? Like, a movie that features both the Zach woods character and also the, like, absolute misery tragedy near the end of the film. It's a little bit like lump in places. And you can tell that they, like, he didn't really totally get his arms around the tone of the material. That being said, I thought it went down very easy. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's very enjoyable to just hang out with this movie for me. And I've been a little surprised by the mixedness response to it because it is another example of a. Like, I just want, like, 25 of these a year. And it's good star part. I think Margaret Qualley's maybe overdoing it a touch in the movie. And that kind of weighs it down a little bit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But that is also what she is cast to do in the movie. So I try not to hold it against her specifically, but, you know, I

[Sean Fennesee]

like her, but she's really hit or miss as a performer.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And she is just always, oh, Margaret Qualley's here. Doing Margaret Qualley stuff.

[Sean Fennesee]

It can be a bit distracting in a movie like this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's very beautiful. And, you know, they have her in. In just abs, like, head to toe. Very tacky. Chanel. Like old Chanel, not new Matthew Chanel. And which real clueless style. But it is very funny and purposeful and she, like, has relationship with them. So I do think most of it is, like, real and purposeful. Knowing.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. So that's what she's there to do. And it uses some of the Margaret Qualiness. But I. I agree. I wasn't particularly. It. It felt like a sideshow.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. It's too bad because the movie kind of starts to turn on her character and that. I think that's why the movie's getting dinged through the first hour. I was like, why is this movie being dumped? Yeah. I was like, this is very good. And I agree with you that it is a much closer. It's closer to Hitman Glen Powell, you know, where it's like he wants to be able to be a little fungible with his, like, you know, his costumes and how he hides.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He doesn't get full. Full Halloween costumes, but they do let him wear a beanie for a while.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. Even while he's in, like, the aviator suit with the plane sequence with this

[Amanda Dobbins]

beanie that you keep wearing. And then I was like, all right. It's because Glenn really wants a costume.

[Sean Fennesee]

He starts to dress up. I think he's pretty charming. And I think more or less expresses the gravity of it. How did you feel about the framing device where he's sort of the confessional to the priest behind bars?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, first two minutes is a real. Oh, this is. We're taping this together.

[Sean Fennesee]

There's a voiceover. There's a framing device.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And also. And like, the framing device is that he's on death row. And I just, you know, I don't believe in the death penalty, so I was just mad. I was like, oh, I've got to do this. But again, it goes down so smooth. And it is, like, a very functional framing device. And I think, like, Glen Powell narrates the voice. It's a good voiceover performance. And so at some point, you just stop asking questions. You're like, sure, like, I'll go along with this. And. And I don't. It didn't feel that Scotch tape y. I think it was doing a little bit of work, pulling the tone together in a way that held for me, I think, until Margaret Qualley's character has to really do whatever she's doing.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. My friend Chris Rosen reviewed the movie on letterboxd, and he was like, this is a September movie. This isn't a February movie. And I thought that was a good insight where there is a certain kind of. It's not an awards film, it's not a blockbuster. It's just kind of like a character piece that is fun to hang out with. And the movie. I can see why the movie was kind of set aside. And I'm sure maybe Glenn is not thrilled with how it turned out or whatever, but I think it's pretty solid. And it's in that, like, it's a six or a seven, and sometimes a six or a seven is a good time. And I like it a lot. I think Zach woods is hilarious. His character is so real. That's a dude I'm sure we knew in Brooklyn, which is like, a Nepo kid who thinks he's an artist and

[Amanda Dobbins]

he's your day job.

[Sean Fennesee]

Empty plastic bag. Like, he has no ideas. I really enjoyed him. I didn't know that the other. The other cousin was. Was Jude Law's son.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Is Raph short for Rafferty Raphael?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think so. Rafferty. Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

Rafferty.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let's double. Double check.

[Sean Fennesee]

Like, Terence Rafferty.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Rafferty Raff Jellicoe Frost Law.

[Sean Fennesee]

Is the Jellicoe Frost Law. What in the world.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He is Jude Law and Sadie Frost kid. I don't know what else you expect.

[Sean Fennesee]

Let's go back.

[Amanda Dobbins]

If Jude Law and Sadie Frost are going to have a kid, name him Rafferty Jellicoe Frost Law.

[Sean Fennesee]

Rafferty Raff Jellicoe Frost Law. Yes. That is the worst law firm in America. Okay. I thought he was. I don't think I'd seen him before. I think he was amusing as the stock trading bad boy who comes to a fateful end.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was excited when there was a helicopter stunt, esque. Not quite a full stunt, but I was like, wow, you guys got a helicopter. Good job on that.

[Sean Fennesee]

The movie has some scale. It's not a small movie, I think. Who was Jessica Henwig's character? Not a real person.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Sean Fennesee]

Wish there was a little bit more time spent shaping who that person was. Aside from being like a very kind kindergarten teacher or like high school English teacher. What is she?

[Amanda Dobbins]

And there is some room there because she's supposed to be sort of, you know, disgusted by the Zach woods character. And she's drawn to Glen Powell's character.

[Sean Fennesee]

But why was she dating Zach woods in the first place?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then she just keeps going along with Glen Powell's like, you know, moving on. So there is. There is some motivation and stuff to question there. And I agree, it doesn't really.

[Sean Fennesee]

That part doesn't really work. She's sort of an audience surrogate, but not really. Yeah, this movie is gonna be forgotten pretty quickly and maybe people will discover it when this goes to HBO Max. But I thought it was a good old time at the movies. And as I mentioned to Chris Ryan, another in a long line of pop culture artifacts that are set basically in my hometown. And fans of the Wonder Years or Growing Pains might know that those are more or less inspired by youth in Huntington. And this is a movie that was originally called Huntington. And I was talking to my sister about it this weekend and I was like, how many billionaires do you think lived in Huntington? And she was like, oh, I'm sure, like a bunch. And I was like, in our hometown. And then she started kind of finessing it with like, oh, no. When you go to the coast up north in Cold Spring harbor, and you know, I lived in the most middle class town in America.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Huntington is name checked. It is. They live in Huntington and it is a grand estate. Portrayed.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The house they used for the interior. I liked, by the way. I just want to say good, like the convention. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Good stuff. Yeah, yeah. That was cool. I mean, that house just did not. There's Oheka Castle near Huntington, which is a place where. That was where many events were held. But most of the people that I knew who attended attended because they worked as servers at Ohka Castle.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. I've just Google imaged Oheka Castle and this is not the exterior used.

[Sean Fennesee]

No, no.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Looks it looks nice.

[Sean Fennesee]

Sure. I just. I'm like. I want to ask John Patton Ford, like, why Huntington? What was it about this town? When did I presume he went there once?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know. It's a good name, you know, and

[Sean Fennesee]

then they didn't use it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, but, I mean, but it's just like the. The town itself.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's named after a London town, you know? Sure. But it is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The name itself, like, evokes something.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. I was from Huntington Station, too, which is really down market.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

We were really not from the nice part of Huntington, unfortunately.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was. I had a lovely time when I visited.

[Sean Fennesee]

You did go.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You've been to Huntington Station Factory.

[Sean Fennesee]

We did go to the Cheesecake Factory. Wonderful. Yes. So I'll tell you what. That was a good Cheesecake Factory. I gotta. I gotta say. Yeah. Shout out to Huntington. I don't really miss it that much, to be honest with you. All right, let's circle to sinners now. You have not. I think I've watched this movie five times. And you have not seen it since you saw it in movie theaters last April?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I mean, I've seen scenes from it and parts of it because it has started as it was released on digital. It's just permeating the culture, and you catch up to stuff a bit. And it was interesting. Certain shots when they showed up in my rewatch, I was like, oh, you know, Leo. Pointing at the camera, because I am so familiar with them individually. But. No, but I did go back. I saw it in theaters. I saw a re release.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay. Was it imax or was it just a regular.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, it was just. It was a regular special screening. Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. So, I mean, I think, you know, over the next few weeks, we'll, like, revisit a couple of the movies that are nominated for Best Picture. I think we'll talk about the doc nominees pretty soon as well. But this feels like a good time to go back to this movie because we did two big episodes about it right when it came out, and then we've talked about it through the awards race, but not kind of through any critical perspective. I actually just rewatched it about 10 days ago because my wife was like, let's watch this. I want to see it. I'm knocking off all the Best Picture contenders, and she didn't get a chance to see it in movie theaters, so I got to watch it at home. So, you know, with almost a year. Tell me some of your reflections. What did you make of the movie? And especially in light of it having this kind of elevated historical status now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Well, it was interesting. I remember our conversation with Van and we were talking about how much is stuffed into this movie, which is true and is what really stuck out to me. The second time, I think, you know, much in the. That when we watched one battle, the first time I was like, oh, this is really funny. And the second time I was like, oh, this is so emotional. The first time I watched the movie, I was like, oh, wow, this is like a really, really elevated, like really smart, like almost like genre breaking vampire movie. But it is, you know, there is a big centerpiece with like a lot of vampires.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yep.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the second time I watched it, I was like, oh, the vampires don't matter at all. I mean, and they do. And they do. And it's a very cool idea that the vampires represent in the movie about ownership of art and black art specifically, and also the type of movie that is being made and the type of movie that people, you know, audiences want to see. So they do matter. And also, like the set piece, obviously, like, they. They spend a lot of time and effort shooting like a very gnarly vampire movie. But I found some of it is just personal preference. My. My attention was almost waning a little as they just. They kept jumping on each other. Um, and I was really surprised and. And excited at how alive the movie came again at the second. The actual climax, which is the smoke character against the clan and the way that's shot and it's sad and exciting and obviously the emotional dream stuff at the end. And as you realize, oh, this was foretold in the first scene also, which he does.

[Sean Fennesee]

He does that in Black Panther too. He uses these kind of illustrative narrative moments early in the movie that's kind of like, here's the movie you're about to get.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. So it was interesting just to be sitting there and realize, oh, no, this is the movie and this is where it's going. And this is where I'm actually gonna get catharsis and where a lot of the ideas are gonna maybe not meet resolution, but at least kind of come to a head. And then, you know, famously, at this point, I didn't know there was a post credit sequence. So the first time I saw it, I didn't see it. And I noticed that the ending and the post credit sequence now started before the credits when I saw it in

[Sean Fennesee]

re release, but there were no credits at all when you saw it in re release before it started. Because I think that there was like a Directed by Ryan Coogler Credit, like, maybe a couple of credits and then it went to the post credit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Was there anything they show Buddy Guy before you hit playing guitar? Yeah, it almost goes straight from like Miles Caton's character from Sammy driving with the guitar along in the road, and it goes straight to Buddy Guy.

[Sean Fennesee]

I can't remember how they do it on the Blu Ray release.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And you play a little more and it's just. It's made a lot clearer that more is happening and you need to stay and watch. And I understand why, because that's the actual end of the movie.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. Yeah. I have some questions for you about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

When we get through things in, you know, in the way that the showdown with the clan and then Smoke seeing Annie and, you know, his. His baby is a resolution for that character. You get some sort of resolution for Sammy before the credits sequence. But it's really the ending for both Sammy and Stack and the Mary character.

[Sean Fennesee]

Or is it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Or is it? And, well, you know, is it a happy ending? Who is the happiest? Like, what are you supposed to take away from these resolutions? Is an interesting question.

[Sean Fennesee]

I mean, what I really want out of that final stretch, and maybe this is just Marvel brain, and I want to talk a little bit about Marvel and Coogler and how that intersects with this movie, but I would very happily watch the 1990, you know, stack and Mary vampire movie that's like circa Demon Knight or something like a black horror movie from the time of my adolescence because I loved horror movies at that time. I think Coogler would be awesome at making a movie with, like, you just think about the music that he could use at that time. You'd look about, like, think about, like, the set design, the production design he could incorporate. It does have a little bit of the. Like, there could be another chapter of this movie too.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

Which, given how successful it's been, you could see it and it sets it up, but not in an obnoxious way. It's not like next time on Sinners. It's like, this is open. Stack is still a vampire. Mary is still a vampire. We can do more, but we don't have to. And you can be happy with the end of Sammy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I think. And also the openness is like another accomplishment of the film because what Sammy says to them as they leave, and he was like. He says something like, until everyone started dying, that was the best day of my life. And he's almost looking at the vampires before him with longing and they go off together.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And so again, you're like, so which outcome was I supposed to be rooting for? Who is. What is the happy ending here? Like, what are we supposed to want? Which is, like, really cool.

[Sean Fennesee]

I mean, you're touching on something that I find to be such an electrifying aspect of the movie, which is, on the one hand, there's this big load bearing metaphor about the vampires who want to siphon the life from all people, but especially these black people, and especially this one black kid who Remik, the Jack o' Connell character, is obsessed by, because he hears the music that allows him to conjure his past and remember his own life, which is a really thorny idea that, like, white people forget about stealing black art and commodifying it in America, white people are fascinated by black art, they're moved by it. It has inspired so many white people to make art. That sounds like the blues, that's rock and roll is totally this transmogrification of the blues music. So that idea is really interesting. And then, so Sammy, then. And some of the other characters that are inside the juke joint, looking at Remic and then looking at their loved ones who have become vampires and being torn about, like, whether to join this eternal life where you're part of a hive mind and you feel like a part of something, but knowing that there's a kind of evil in that decision and a kind of a colonization and a Just become, like, losing the self. Right? Like losing your individuality in order to feel safer is a big idea in a vampire movie. And I thought he really communicated it really well. And I think I'm generally with you that the actual vampire mayhem of the movie, to me, is the least successful stuff in the movie. Yes. And some of that is just like. Even though Coogler's now made a few action movies, I feel like he's not in that John McTiernan level where a vampire throwdown is gonna be the best thing in the movie. Maybe he'll get there, maybe he won't. But everything conceptually around the vampire usage is so smart and so realized. And so much of it is more like the formal classical Universal horror movie stuff of, you know, if you would just invite me in and I could cross that line. Like the Omar. I talked to Autumn actually about that Omar Miller sequence when he comes through the door, and he's like, just let me come on in. You know, and they're kind of having that negotiation between the two of them. And that's just like. You could find that in a vampire movie 100 years ago. And it would be just as compelling and just as interesting as a concept. So he's really got a handle on that stuff. There is just a big CGI fight like there is in so many Marvel movies. There's two of them, really. There's the raid on the juke joint and then there's when they go outside when Remic is. When they're all kind of burning in the sun. That is like. I think when the movie gets criticized, it's people thinking about that stuff in the movie which makes it feel just like a genre movie or a comic book movie or whatever. And then you elide all the other dramatic or metaphorical stuff that makes it such a powerful movie. But as I have been saying since the Shape of Water Best picture win, I'm like, good, get more of that shit in movies that can win Oscars. Parasite winning, which is a Hitchcock movie after Hitchcock never won, is good. Let's just kind of get more what people want from movies. And that is part of the reason why that stuff is all in there is because Coogler has such a keen sense for what audiences want. It's what's made him so successful. And they do want a big fight at the end. They do want a throwdown. You know, that's something that you learn making Creed or that you learn making Black Panther. And so I understand why that stuff is there. I wish it was a little bit more sharply rendered or a little bit more clever.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And it also, you know, it does come after not just like an hour of. It's amazing how much world is built into what is a one night only movie. It's a 24 hour. It's just like it is one crazy night.

[Sean Fennesee]

It is, it is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And so much history and then. And so much recreation. I just like that, you know, it's not insightful to say that like the production design and the costume design and the cinematography like really stand out in this. But like, so that's Ruthie Carter, that's Hannah Beechler, that's Autumn Gerald Arkapa. And they really bring this specific place in Mississippi in 1932 to life.

[Sean Fennesee]

The train station, the cotton fields, the juke joint. Like the spaces that they build are really amazingly realized. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And so you're so immersed in that world. And Coogler has talked about how much research he did in addition to this being something that was shared with him from family members. And it's a big part of meaningful to him. But so it's so beautifully recreated and then you do before all the vampire stuff really gets kicking. You have what I am now calling like the dream ballet, like the big sequence, which is I lied to you and is a literalization of so much of what the movie is trying to do in terms of the connection of black music and black history, like over time and space, backward and forward.

[Sean Fennesee]

And also other cultures too.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, exactly.

[Sean Fennesee]

Japanese, Chinese.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, totally. And uses also the characters. Cause the Chinese group in the Mississippi, like the Chinese history in the Mississippi Delta, is represented in the characters and also in that dream ballet. And it also creates something that I think the movie does so well, which is this is like a very sensual movie. And it understands the power of music, it understands the power of movement, it understands the power of sex. It understands how all those things are related to God and spirituality. And that on one side is church, on the other side is music. On the third side is oral sex and lots of liquids. And you feel all of those things. Like, it's just. You feel the different combinations of or like explorations of the ecstatic. And then you get to that sequence, which is just killer and looks so good. And you're just. It's magical movie making. And then you do gotta watch a CGI vampire fight. So I do think that some of the criticism or the resistance to that fight is because of like the high highs that achieved in the first 90 minutes.

[Sean Fennesee]

I felt a little bit of it watching it even the first time I was like, okay, this is going into a slightly more standard movie territory. And I think some of those criticisms are informed by a generation of movie fan that saw a couple of movies that I think Coogler has been pretty honest about being inspired by. But I feel like it's probably better to put those movies in a lineage. And I've been kind of arguing with people about this over the last few months. But obviously there's a lot of From Dusk till Dawn in this movie, the Robert Rodriguez film, which was written by Quentin Tarantino. George Clooney and Tarantino play brothers who are criminals who kidnap a family and they bring them as hostages on this road trip so they can escape after a bank robbery. And they find themselves at a bar on the border of Mexico. And they realize when they're in this bar where they're waiting to meet someone overnight, that it's actually a vampire bar. And that after a certain period of time, all the patrons of the bar and all the people who work at the bar are all vampires. Very similar in a kind of a little more than superficial way. But if you look at the history of these movies, From Dusk Till dawn is very clearly inspired by John Carpenter's assault on Precinct 13. It's also clearly inspired by Catherine Bigelow's Near Dark. It's also inspired by John Carpenter's the Thing, which Coogler and Autumn have cited as major inspirations. And so I personally enjoy the idea of Coogler using movie history and the frameworks of movie. This is what all of my favorite directors do, where they're just like, I really love this movie from 40 years ago. And I want to do kind of my spin on it. And I'll do it in the Mississippi Delta and it'll be about blues music. To me, many great movies, maybe most great movies, are kind of in conversation with movie history. And so the idea of people being like, this is just from Dusk Till dawn, like, completely misunderstands the long arc of vampire movies in American popular culture. So I enjoy that he does that. And then I also enjoy the fact that he doesn't just end with a big vampire fight. He does the two things that you were describing where he puts a bow on the kkk, which the movie kind of sets up very well. At the beginning when Smoke and Stack buy that space from Hogwood. Hogwood, incredible, hilarious name for the KKK member. You get this really artful, kind of classical John Dillinger, like, shooting into the camera moment from Michael B. Jordan. And then that incredibly complex spiritual idea of Annie and their child who are both dead, and then him, Smoke moving on at the end of the film, which is a swing. I mean, that's not a small gesture. It's a pretty dramatic moment. And what I like about that, and I've been turning this over in my mind, so I'm curious how you feel about it. I see the movie as like somewhat anti organized religion. And I don't even know how faithful a person Coogler is or not. But Sammy's kind of war between his family life and his creative life and what his father wants for him and what his cousins want for him, and where he ultimately ends up when he grows up to become Buddy Guy. And the way that Smoke goes out and the fact that he does have this connection to the spiritual world and that Annie represents this other Creole and African relationship to the spiritual. But that the kind of the organization, the structure that keeps you spiritual is really discarded in the movie and not really paid as much attention to. And what it is really ultimately is a movie about like following your passions and what you want and what's inside you, yourself and keeping it for yourself and not giving it to Remik and not giving it to anybody else who wants it. Doing it on your own terms is, again, another thorny idea in the stew of the movie that I really enjoy. And every time you think he's gonna end the movie, he waits to end it, to say one more thing about the things that are on his mind as he's writing through it. But I don't know if people may disagree with me about how they see spirituality and the church in the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it's definitely set up as something that the Sammy character is rebelling against. And the last shot is him. The last shot before the final credits.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah,

[Amanda Dobbins]

the last shot of Miles Caton is Sammy driving away from the church. And, you know, and it echoes him driving away with Smoke and Stack ahead of time. And, like, he's like. He's on a road of, like, you know, a road of his own. Perhaps a road to Damascus, but. So I don't disagree.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think it might not be as, like, clean as, like, it's anti religion. That's not really what I'm saying. No, no, no. But it is, like, I wonder, inside of Coogler, there's something about, like, I could have went here, but I went here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I think what the movie is amazing at communicating and is exploring. And, like, it's the connection, like music, spirituality, like sex. Like, there are different ways to feel and live in this world and enjoy this world and find its real beauty then in the institutions that are presented throughout the film.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think that's well put.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the movie really understands the connections between all of those things. So I don't know. So, like, it is a very sexy movie, and there are not very many sexy movies right now, but. But not in, like, a. Not in a gross way or not in a way that's trying to, like, titillate. I think it just understands, like, sex as another, like, way of connection and physical expression or.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, no, I think it's a. It's a movie about desire in a lot of ways, about what people really want. And Sammy going down on Jamie Lawson's character, you know, and then having that kind of, like, union, that realization. I think Hailee Steinfeld's character is, like, incredibly sexual and forward in a way that's fairly uncommon. But again, it's kind of this thorny idea of this white woman coming into this space, desiring a black man, wanting to be within this black enclave of people and her not feeling shame about that. Her being excited by it and being like, scorned by this person who left her and wanting to get back in their life, but then turning her into a vampire, who then turns him into a vampire, which is again, this like, really naughty idea that I think is really interesting.

[Amanda Dobbins]

One thing on rewatch that I did notice was that it is the women, every time, who let the vampires in. You pointed out Lola Kirk, which, like, she is. I don't remember her character's name. She's Lola Kirk forever. And then Mary, who is sent out because her argument is that she is like the vampire.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

The.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The Irish musicians as. As we, as the characters understand them at that moment are more likely to. To be forthright with her.

[Sean Fennesee]

Lola Kirk's name is Joan, by the way, in the film.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Okay. And then Grace, the. The Chinese grocer who invites them and she literally yells, comes in, but come in. But it's because they've threatened her child.

[Sean Fennesee]

And played by Lee Jun Lee, who's great in this movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. So wonderful. So that's three instances. I mean, I sat there and I was like, I wonder what this is trying to say. And it's not trying to. It's not like the men are doing anything proactive. The men are not helpful in any way. They just become vampires.

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, it's also the non black women.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know, Annie is not inviting any vampires in.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Annie is the only person who knows how to do anything.

[Sean Fennesee]

She's the wisest person in the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly. So, you know, I think that all of that's, like, very purposeful.

[Sean Fennesee]

And

[Amanda Dobbins]

the men. The funniest scene to me that I had forgotten was Delroy Lindo eating the garlic clove.

[Sean Fennesee]

So good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that whole sequence is very inspired by the thing and this idea of, like, testing who is really the monster. So, like a great callback. But, I mean, he's very funny in the movie throughout. His nomination is really interesting to me because, like, I think he's really good in the movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

I don't know that he's like my favorite performance of all time. I think he's like an interesting side character. Not really too much more than that, but I love him as an actor over the years and there are a number of different times when I've been like, he should have been nominated for Clockers. He should have been nominated for Defy Bloods. He should have been nominated for a bunch of other movies. But you do need a person who can play for laughs there a couple times in the movie because the movie does run the risk of getting a little psycho serious about certain aspects of it, like Smoke and Annie. That's a very sincere and very straight conversation that they're having. First when he goes to see her after he's returned to Mississippi, and then later they're kind of like their union inside of the juke joint. So you do need people who can kind of balance. And then the vampires ultimately become very funny. I spent a lot of time thinking about Jack o' Connell and Coogler's decision to, like, make choose an Irish vampire and this really interesting history of the Irish and black Americans. And, like, it's purposeful, totally purposeful. You know, like two very musical peoples. Two peoples that were considered a lower class, but one certainly at a much higher station in society than the other. And this idea of, like, the false sympathies of the Irish, that is like, again, a very deep and complicated idea. I've had a lot of fun texting with Van over the last few months about that idea. And, you know, Ryan, I thought, has, I think, has a really good insight and sense of humor about that. He's like, my name is Ryan. Like, I am Irish. You know, and the idea of o' Connell being a big time monster, like a real historical movie baddie, but also having this pretty typical, in the right kind of movie, sympathetic strain of vampire identity where it's like, most vampires are like, I didn't. This wasn't my choice. Somebody took my life from me. I'm bound to this eternal struggle. I just kind of want to get back to what my life used to be. And so even though you say vampire, you think of silly movie with somebody biting somebody's neck. You know, the Bram Stoker idea of it is very sexual, very psychological. And o', Connell, obviously on a legendary run right now of just playing complex villains, but I think he's terrific in this movie. And I said to Autumn, the rocky road to Dublin scene when he's dancing and singing, and then it becomes this kind of like ecstatic, euphoric collectivism moment between all of these vampires who are like, coming together to embrace this white boy. I think it's so good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And you really do. This stack charact is there singing along, like, very enthusiastically. And Michael B. Jordan is like, really hamming it up in that moment.

[Sean Fennesee]

Irish dancing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's a great performance, but it jumps out.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. MBJ also obviously nominated. And I think an actor that we've always liked, I think has maybe been a little historically underestimated. But also we've been Living with him for a long time. Going back to the Wire and Friday Night Lights.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, we watched him grow up.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, we did. He's. He's currently making the Thomas Crown Affair. I know that that's pretty complicated for you. What if it's not good?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm open to it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That was one thing that you guys. Well, I haven't finished your crime 101 conversation yet. I mean, I do. You know, I love a JMO Light podcast, so I will listen to all of it.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's a little JMO ish.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, but no one's mentioned the Thomas Crown Affair overtones yet. I mean, like, it's a very hot insurance woman in on or not on the trade.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, that didn't occur to me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was right there for the taking.

[Sean Fennesee]

We missed you then.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I enjoyed Crime 101.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, it's fun.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did think that it was Chris Hemsworth's the Accountant, but that's okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

It 100% is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But I also enjoyed the Accountant and even some parts of the Accountant too.

[Sean Fennesee]

There are very similar performances. A very similar idea behind that guy. Two beautiful men who are like, what if I'm a little weird? You know, which I get it. As a beautiful man who's a little weird.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Anyway, mbj, he's really, really good at reacting to people. That's one of his skills as an actor. So you really do need to hand it to him that most of this performance he has to be reacting to himself and. Or, you know, a stand in for himself. And I do think that he, in addition to like really demonstrating a connection with both the Annie character and the Mary character and like, and the Sammy character and all the people around him. The scenes between Smoke and Stack have chemistry.

[Sean Fennesee]

Oh, yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which is incredible because you're just having chemistry with yourself.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's a really good twin performance. Twin performances are not easy. You got any favorite twin performances?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Lindsay Lohan, the Parent Trap. Nancy Meyers. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Pretty good one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's iconic.

[Sean Fennesee]

What about Tom Hardy in the film Legend?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I do think I've seen that. It's like 60s. He's in a suit.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. The Kray Brothers.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, sure. Listen, if Chris Ryan's happy, I'm happy.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay. What about Christian Bale in the Prestige?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, he's good. Christian Bale is seldom bad. I've seen Amsterdam.

[Sean Fennesee]

So is he even bad in that? I don't even think he's bad in that. I don't think he's ever been bad. You know, he survived Love and Thunder I guess he's terrific. Yeah, Christian Bale should work with Coogler. That would be good. I'd be interested in that. I did like a lot about a lot of what Coogler has been saying about this film and what you were describing about his connection to the American south and how he pointed out that he made two movies about Africa before circling back to. He kind of skipped a step in terms of exploring his personal history and his family history. And his uncle James is this kind of signal figure in the development of this movie. Someone who he's really close to, who was from Mississippi, who talked with him a lot. He eventually moved to Richmond, California to be closer to his family. And so Coogler was very close to James and they talked all the time about music and baseball and James drank whiskey and, you know, I think most of us had uncles and aunts with whom we had these relationships right. Where they showed us things. They kind of, because they weren't our parents, they could be more real with us about how things were. I like a lot of Coogler's fascinations and obsessions with stuff that he puts into his movies and also his little perversions of things that he puts into his movies. And him constantly citing this and his sadness about not being present when James passed away while he was making Creed being such a critical part of informing this movie, I think is really cool. What else? So the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let's see, we did vampires. Do you think that the. The wishy washiness over. Not the. The disagreement over the actual like vampire fighting thing, which is the most genre part of this genre movie and the least Oscars part of this Oscars movie will be held against it in voting.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think it already isn't. You know, I mean, it got 16 nominations. And so that's sort of what I mean. When I. As we've been doing this over the years, I give a lot of thought to what is accepted and celebrated. And you know, I just mentioned to you the Shape of Water and Parasite, but I mean, everything, everywhere, all at once is another movie where Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was never really strongly considered as a best picture contender. It got nominated and was acclaimed. But a movie like that, a martial arts film, a film with a lot of martial arts, was just not recognized. And now it is. Now there is one. It's entirely premised upon the history of martial arts, that movie. And so I think that's really interesting that a lot of those prejudices and biases against genre storytelling have kind of been washed away now. It doesn't mean that they're always gonna win.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

And I guess there's never been a vampire movie that's won Best Picture before. And you could debate whether or not the Exorcist and the Silence of the Lambs, I guess, are the two primary victors in the horror movie best Picture race over the years. And we're probably due now for another one, considering how meaningful horror is to audiences and to moviemaking in 2026. So that, I mean, I guess if Sinners wins, do you think of that as a horror movie win? I guess you do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess so. Though, again, my experience of this rewatch and of really sitting down and thinking about it was that, you know, the genre, the horror element is both essential to it and also the least memorable thing about it, in my opinion. And, like, you need the framework. And like any good genre film in any genre is using those very. The beats and then inventing them, putting them together in new ways, referencing what's going before that. That's like the joy of them. And that's also, if you can be creative about it. So I think to not consider it genre is to also misunderstand the film.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. But it is also a musical, you know, in a very defined way where there are multiple set pieces, where the movie just stops and we look at someone playing music. And that is so interesting that he's able to make that work together with it. The music itself, I have been giving a lot of thought to. I instantly fell in love with it. And I'm on board with what Ludwig Goransson does. I just think he. And I've noticed that he's gotten some criticism because he's now won twice in a row. And there's this sense that he's kind of iterating on the same idea over and over again, which is he's using these kind of cultural mashups. You know that in Black Panther, he's taking, like, classic orchestral music and hip hop and African rhythms and blasting them together. In Oppenheimer, it is this idea of, like, the big swelling orchestra with a very tiny, like, quartet with this idea of, like, electronic music kind of pulsing underneath it. And in this movie, Delta blues, African rhythms, orchestral score, gospel music, heavy metal. There's a lot of, like, American rock and roll in the movie. Exactly.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Like classic. Like, it's a vampire movie. And we cut away to the moon and we're like, boom. Like, death chord. Which is awesome.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I love it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, I'm into it, like, as a project. I think that's A cool project.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What else would you do for this film? I mean, that is just kind of like a literalization of what this film is about in a lot of ways. So I, you know, I, I think it works perfectly. I have no problem with it.

[Sean Fennesee]

I do too. I mean, I really, I think it's fun to look at the. To look at the playlist that they compiled for the inspirations for the music, because it is everything from like Willie Dixon and Son House to Alice in Chains, you know, like, it is a vast 100 year history of American guitar music. On top of the fact that he, I think, is ascending into this, like, John Williams status, you know, where he has these collaborations with Coogler. He's now got these collaborations going with Christopher Nolan the same way that Williams kind of had like Lucas and Spielberg. And then he started stacking on top of that and then Harry Potter. And you can kind of see for the next 40 years that if Ludwig wants this, he can have this. And that's pretty rare.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's great.

[Sean Fennesee]

That's pretty rare.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let's have another John Williams. You know, John Williams, one of our greatest living.

[Sean Fennesee]

How about yesterday when they were playing music and Alice was just like, can you just put on the Star wars music and just like the Imperial March?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, the last 45 minutes of your barbecue was just our children dancing around to the Star wars score.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. John Williams is huge at the Jaws exhibit. Have you been to the Jaws exhibit at the Academy museum?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Not yet.

[Sean Fennesee]

There's multiple rooms, but there's one room where there's a keyboard and it has stickers on the keys and it shows you how to play the Jaws theme. And then on the screen behind it is Spielberg and John Williams talking about the score and how they built the score. And it's basically Spielberg being like, I don't know how John Williams does it, but it's really interesting. Yeah. Ludwig, I like. I'm a fan, you know, Do I wish Dan Lapatan was nominated for best score this year?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I do. Absolutely do.

[Sean Fennesee]

I do. I wish he'd win. That's my favorite score.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Me too.

[Sean Fennesee]

But he's not nominated, so he's not going to win.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I do think that the score nominating committee needs to look within itself.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's been two years of just egregious oversights. But I'm not mad at this win.

[Sean Fennesee]

I wouldn't be mad at it either. It's almost certainly seems like it's going to happen. Johnny Greenwood still never won.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That is weird. Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Isn't It. What's going on there?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know. I mean, has pta won't.

[Sean Fennesee]

No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So that's what's going on there. Jake Fincher doesn't have an Oscar. Kubrick never got an Oscar. It's just kind of where we are.

[Sean Fennesee]

These are all good points. I'm quite a big fan.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Harrison Ford doesn't have an Oscar.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. That's a tough one. That's. We can't make that one, right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Tom Cruise doesn't. Honoraries don't count in my book.

[Sean Fennesee]

Digger, though.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, Diggers.

[Sean Fennesee]

Digger's coming.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You think it's going to be a Venice?

[Sean Fennesee]

Oh, is that being speculated by me? Are you going to Venice again?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm thinking about it. It's been long enough that I'm getting itchy.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know, it's been four months.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I know, but listen. Logistics and being away from your family and you got to kind of like take a reset. But I've been looking at apartments. Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Just to buy. To live in. Yeah. That's exciting for you. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day to day. But our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think, they weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW and the other drivers out there. Grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn [e-mail] if Sinners wins one out of 16 Oscars, will there be like

[Amanda Dobbins]

a. Oh, God, yes. Of course there will. Of course there will. But. And I.

[Sean Fennesee]

And I guess it's gonna win too, right? It's gonna win a screenplay and score. Those are gonna happen.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. And Coogler will have like a wonderful moment on stage, as he did. Did you watch his Baptist?

[Sean Fennesee]

I did not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was wonderful.

[Sean Fennesee]

No.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And he had all the department heads stand up.

[Sean Fennesee]

Very cool.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And you know, and he also. He's so thoughtful about the actual award he's receiving and what he's receiving it for. And it was about writing and the power, you know, and inspiration to other writers. But, like, in a non trite way, it was great. So he'll get screenplays. So two for 16. It's not what you want.

[Sean Fennesee]

I don't think that's what's gonna happen. But it's possible.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I would really like to see production design, costume design, cinematography.

[Sean Fennesee]

I don't think the first two are. I Think the first two are going to Frankenstein.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. I don't understand that. I. But that's. That's one woman's opinion.

[Sean Fennesee]

Cinematography, I think, is a coin flip.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

But we'll see.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It would be nice to have more craft stuff because I do think there's such a.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

It's.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is so beautifully built on every level. And also, as you've been saying, Coogler has really just brought up this whole, like, the next generation of John Williams is in every category, right?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. I mean, he's an incredible team builder and legacy builder, which I think is great. I mean, obviously, Ruth Carter has been working for decades, but, you know, Hannah Beechler, I don't think I'd heard that name before she started working on his movies. And now I look forward to seeing what she does. We talked about it with Autumn. The fact that she's now a person who. She'd been making. She was making indies with Giacoppola. You know, that was really what her filmmaking experience was in the 2010s. And her coming on to do Black Panther Wakanda forever is fascinating. Coogler for the next few years is an interesting subject. I think he has become, weirdly more now than Black Panther, which was such a big film. But he has done such a good job as an advocate for this film. And then, as you said, kind of winning these prizes and being a public person, going on good hang with Amy Poehler. You know, like, he's more visible now and he seems to have relished.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sorry.

[Sean Fennesee]

I know that was a great moment. One of the few moments where a podcast was clipped out and I was like, this is good. This is what you want. He's making Black Panther 3 and Black Panther 2. Not my favorite, probably my least favorite of his films. And you can see why. There are a lot of reasons why. Obviously, we lost Chadwick Boseman, and I think that was obviously very hard for everybody who worked on that movie, and it forced them to change that movie in a pretty dramatic way. And we are definitely in a moment where it feels like Marvel matters a little less to the culture. It doesn't mean that a Black Panther movie matters less, but this is the kind of movie that I'm like, goddamn, I can't wait to see what this guy does next. So then to just go to A Black Panther 3 is maybe not exactly what I would want from them, but it's not our choice, obviously.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know, maybe he has a big idea. Maybe he's got a lot of stuff he wants to do. He's a very imaginative person.

[Sean Fennesee]

I agree.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I also think Ryan Cooler's in a position at this point in his life where he's doing something that he doesn't want to be doing.

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, I wonder if he's contractually obligated to make a third Black Panther film. I mean, that crossed my mind, you

[Amanda Dobbins]

know, I mean, I'm sure in some way, but also, I don't know, aren't these things supposed to be more flexible?

[Sean Fennesee]

I mean, he has a lot of power. That's the other thing. I mean, I noted that Phil Lord and Chris Miller did themselves an aspect ratio video in the run up to Project Hail Mary where they're kind of talking about seeing the movie in imax. I can say I saw the movie in imax. Wowzers. So I get why they did that. But that only happened because Ryan Coogler did the introduction of the film presentation of the movie, which then went viral a year ago. And now this wave of horny format boys, all the PLF kids who are just like, I will not see this film unless it's projected in 70 at CityWalk. Which is like, I mean it me. But it's really funny you were that

[Amanda Dobbins]

way, especially for one battle. And I was like, we gotta just like.

[Sean Fennesee]

I saw it in every format.

[Amanda Dobbins]

See them. And the. And the Vista vision of it all.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Why. Why did they shoot Weathering Heights and VistaVision? Why?

[Sean Fennesee]

Didn't get an answer on that.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I have.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I've got no answers on any of that. But I see it in the best screen that you can, you know, in the best. Go. Go to the best experience to see a film and then just see it.

[Sean Fennesee]

What kind of movie would you like Ryan Coogler to make?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I know Michael B. Jordan is directing Thomas Crown Affair, so I know

[Sean Fennesee]

Coogler's version could have been. Yeah, that would be really cool.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I know. I think my answer for most directors I admire is like, can you just remake the timeless Crown Fair? A heist film with charming people?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, he would make a heck of a heist movie. That's really interesting. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals and 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com TheBigPicture Terms and Conditions apply.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This episode of the Big Picture is presented by State Farm.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know those friends who show up for whatever you're into? The ones who'll debate which superhero universe is better or binge true crime documentaries with you at 3 in the morning? Those friends are gold.

[Amanda Dobbins]

State Farm is like that, helping you figure out the coverage that actually fits. Car, home life, whatever you need, they've got your back. And if you want a hand, a local agent is just a tap away on their award winning app.

[Sean Fennesee]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there Best Picture power rankings. Yeah, we haven't done this in a month. As I said, this is a very consequential weekend.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

So we're doing it before PGA and before the actor awards. And that will determine, I think probably nothing. But PGA is going to tell us a lot.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Because PGA is extremely predictive for best Picture. If Sinners wins pga, will you flip your deci. Your.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Your.

[Sean Fennesee]

Where you think it's going?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know. I think if Sinners wins PGA and then you get a big night at the act Rewards, which are the next night. And I think Sinners is the presumptive favorite and best ensemble.

[Sean Fennesee]

It is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Um, so if you get those two, plus you pick up a supporting trophy or two, then maybe. Yes, maybe I'll flip it.

[Sean Fennesee]

You've been steadfast. I've been more wavery.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We talked about the baftas and we talked about the surprises and then we listed all the awards that one battle after another won. The baftas are not as predictive and I do think that there is a lot of movement for Sinners. But we have seen in the last few years that the race is decided quite early. And then losers like ourselves spend a lot of time trying to make things interesting until mid March.

[Sean Fennesee]

Like who selves.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And it's not. It's that, you know, it's everything everywhere. It's Oppenheimer, it's Anora.

[Sean Fennesee]

So sometimes coda happens.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sometimes coda happens. I was on leave for coda. So you don't count that one.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, so I don't acknowledge that never happened. Koda. Beautiful movie. Like that movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I cried. Listen, I'm a Human being.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, me too.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I cried before I had a child.

[Sean Fennesee]

I just love to have a daughter. That's been the best thing that's ever happened to me. And Koda is powerful truth about that. Let's do the rankings. I don't know that we need to dramatically shift what we had, but I'm curious how you thought. I thought there was a chance and the reason I scheduled this for this time, I thought there was a chance that Hamnet could win a jafta because BAFTA is not very predictive and it tends to not match with Best Picture. Hamnet did in fact win best British film at the BAFTAs. I thought we were gonna be like, okay, is this actually a three horse race? And that was the convo we were gonna have?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't think so.

[Sean Fennesee]

And that's not the conversation we're gonna have. So last time we did this in January, we had number 10, F1, number 9, Begonia, number 8, Train Dreams, number 7, the Secret Agent, number 6, Frankenstein, number 5, Marty supreme, number 4, Sentimental Value, number 3, Hamnet, number 2, Sinners, number 1. One battle after another. What's changing anything? I know. This is a pointless exercise. All awards prognostication is pointless. I hear you guys. I get it. That being said, I don't hear you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, this is what we do this podcast for also.

[Sean Fennesee]

People pretend like they don't like this and they listen to all these episodes. All of these episodes always have listenership.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't hear you because I don't read the comments. And also because this is. This is what we do on this podcast for almost 10 years running. How many episodes are we. What episode is this?

[Sean Fennesee]

We're coming up on 900. Okay, 900, I think is this spring.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, 900. I know what. It's not a thousand.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's not a thousand. We'll get there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Remember when you made me celebrate like 300 or something? Made you and I.

[Sean Fennesee]

No, you did you put it in 300? Yeah, sure. That's a big number.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's not 250, you know.

[Sean Fennesee]

Oh, you think that's a not interesting number?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's sort of like a 15th anniversary, which I think I said at the time. It's like we're stretching a little.

[Sean Fennesee]

So you only care every 250?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I just. I think that 250, 500, 750. I mean, 750 is really also. I don't think we did anything.

[Sean Fennesee]

We did not do 750.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, no, no, no. It's 250. 500. And then a thousand.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think we should have an anniversary episode every six episodes. I think that would go well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

We're gonna formally rank these. Are you ready?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

So today's best picture power rankings is brought to you by Volkswagen. It's easy to sit back and watch life go by like you're watching a movie of someone else's story play out. But you'll never get where you want to be that way. So this is a call from us. VW and all the other drivers out there take control and make the most of every moment. Like many of the characters in the movies we're talking about Today, we have 10 moves. Yeah, I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is anything changing?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. Begonia hasn't won shit. So that is moving from 9 to 10. In my opinion, F1 at least is in the race for sound, for editing. We could have like a Ford v Ferrari editing win here for F1. That's in play. Oh. You know, like sometimes a kind of non competitor that is in the best picture race gets into that race. That's plausible to me, but only if

[Amanda Dobbins]

it involves cars going really fast.

[Sean Fennesee]

It helps. It definitely helps because you got to

[Amanda Dobbins]

cut from the one car to the other.

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, he's got all those cameras mounted on the cars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's good editing.

[Sean Fennesee]

Kaczynski, My guy. My dog.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I'm right there. I've been there from the beginning, I think.

[Sean Fennesee]

What's happening? What's happening?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm happy to see Emma Stone at the awards.

[Sean Fennesee]

Lanthimos you in?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm in.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'm pro. I enjoyed Begonia.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I like Begonia more than I liked Poor Things. So that's where I am.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think I like them about the same.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think every Lonthimos movie, to me that isn't the Lobster or Dog Tooth is like a seven. The Lobster and Dog Tooth, those are a nine.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. And the favorite, it's like a seven.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's a three and a half out of five.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The favorite an eight.

[Sean Fennesee]

That's cool.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Lobster and Dog tooth. I agree. Nine. Begonia. Sure. I guess Begonia and Poor Things are both a seven. Because Poor Things, the first time you see it, really great. The second time you see it, you're like, uh huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's like 14 hours long.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Why is that movie so long? Gowns.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Beautiful gowns. No, I get it.

[Sean Fennesee]

I like it. I like it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's good.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's okay. It's very similar to the how to Make a Killing conversation. It was a good time. Enjoyed It. A couple ideas. Good performance. Love to go to the movies. It's at number 10, Begonia.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, yeah, it is. But I enjoyed it.

[Sean Fennesee]

I did, too. F1. Number nine. Or is F1? Is it zooming Roomin past Train Dreams.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Train Dreams also. Well, it's won a couple. Cinematography. Cinematography.

[Sean Fennesee]

And that's how we're grading. This is sort of like, what are you getting on the board? And is Train Dreams gonna get anything on the board on Oscar night? It's not nominated in very many places. Yeah, but is the song Train Dreams from Train Dreams by Nick Cave nominated? I forget. I believe so, but Nick Cave will not be performing. Hey, you know what? Let's pause for a second. K Pop Demon Hunters being added to the Criterion Collection.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What's up?

[Sean Fennesee]

Oh, my God.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let's go.

[Sean Fennesee]

Are you serious?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Does Alice get her own copy?

[Sean Fennesee]

Of course. That's the whole thing. That's what we're about to do. So cute. Welcome to the collection. Put Alice in the closet. Come on. No, this is huge.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Knox would come too.

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, yeah. He'll also be getting his own copy, obviously. I think just an ingenious move by Criterion.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He wants the tiger.

[Sean Fennesee]

Oh, yeah. What's the tiger called? Derpy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, Derpy. Yeah. He would like Derpy in some form.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay, I'll clock that for the next. I don't think that he did.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He did randomly go upstairs and then just like, emerge with my. Bring it on 4K that you got me for my birthday. Hey, what's this?

[Sean Fennesee]

That's what this is all about. Putting K Pop Demon Hunters in the collection. A whole new generation of physical media. Kids fucking love it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

All right, I'm sorry, I. F1 at number I train dreams at number nine

[Amanda Dobbins]

and F1 at eight. I think that F1 has a better chance at sound and possibly editing than Train Dreams has at cinematography.

[Sean Fennesee]

Very interesting take.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. I think F1 has a possibility, a stronger possibility in two categories than Train Dreams has in the one.

[Sean Fennesee]

The case for Train Dreams in cinematography is most people have to shoot on digital. And they know how hard it is to make digital look like that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is.

[Sean Fennesee]

And so there is a little bit of an acknowledgement, but I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do they know? This is actually my question.

[Sean Fennesee]

I don't know. It's actually.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do they know where are standards, whatever.

[Sean Fennesee]

And what Michael Bauman does and what Autumn Derald Archipod do are very different in those two frontrunners. One is this very kind of like David Lean esque portrait of big vistas. And the other is this very Contrasty, dark, colorful, musical, kind of that historically athletic. You know, there are a couple of big oners in Sinners. There are two different approaches to this stuff. Train Dreams is a bit more magisterial, a bit more Terrence Malick. So they're all different. These different types that are up in that category. I think Train Dreams is nine, because I don't think it's going to win anything. I think F1 getting a win. Now is the Secret Agent getting a win.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You think it's going to be sentimental value in international feature?

[Sean Fennesee]

I do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sentimental value is very strong.

[Sean Fennesee]

It is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

People really like it. People really like it in the nominations.

[Sean Fennesee]

It won at BAFTA for non English language film.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

By the way, speaking of the Secret Agent follow up conversation that we will have will happen in March because the film is going to Hulu on March 1st.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, that's great.

[Sean Fennesee]

So then the reason I've been holding off on us having a deeper conversation with the movie is because I feel like people haven't had a chance to see the movie. So I know that those of you who've seen it are like, talk about it. Talk about it more. But when a movie plays in like 200 theaters and then goes away for three months, it's a little bit hard to justify. But it will be on Hulu on March 1st, so we'll talk about it after that.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Is F1 ahead of Secret Agent? Is that crazy?

[Amanda Dobbins]

That is crazy. Okay, so I think international feature is probably the only place where it could win. Right.

[Sean Fennesee]

You've ruled out Wagner Mora.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I just. He hasn't been back on stage, you know, and he's not going to be on stage with the actors because they didn't nominate him. It's not my decision. It was theirs. We're not in sag. Aftra, as previously discussed, they hate.

[Sean Fennesee]

Should we apply?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is that how it works?

[Sean Fennesee]

Should Netflix podcasters be in sag? Genuine question. Should Rich Paul and Max Kellerman be in sag? Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I would honestly love.

[Sean Fennesee]

What do you guys think? Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

If they are, then I want them negotiating for me. You know, that's like. That sounds good.

[Sean Fennesee]

Rich Paul is an agent.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's what I'm saying.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay. We can talk to them about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. I don't.

[Sean Fennesee]

I get. This is just a game. We're just playing a game. I love the game.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you think right now you're doing your ballot right now it's sentimental value over Secret Agent?

[Sean Fennesee]

I already did my ballot for pga.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We are talking about the Oscars.

[Sean Fennesee]

Like General Jim Oscar Voter, Jane. Oscar voter.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

I could never get into the minds of those freaks. No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

How about if you, Sean Fennesee, are making your predictions for Oscar night right now.

[Sean Fennesee]

Oh, that's what I'm saying. But they will never reveal the vote, so it doesn't matter.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no. Sean, who's winning international feature today? You have to pick today.

[Sean Fennesee]

Is it Secret Agent?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's sentimental value. Okay. I don't know if I'm there yet. I don't have to make that decision right now.

[Sean Fennesee]

You're so afraid of Brazil.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I respect it. You know, they are powerful. And I don't read the comments.

[Sean Fennesee]

Is like,

[Amanda Dobbins]

I really like the Secret Agents.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

You.

[Sean Fennesee]

I do too. Sentimental value is maybe more special than we realize. I know you might become a big time movie for a generation of people

[Amanda Dobbins]

and I'll never understand that generation.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know what I'm saying?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I do know what you're saying. And I meant to say that Ryan Coogler specifically thanked Joachim Trier in his speech and was saying that Joachim is a mentor to him, was mentioned and taught him how to write and he loved that film. So I see these two movies, I

[Sean Fennesee]

think are gonna be very influential. And I think they're like those two movies. I see the Secret Agent is brilliant and strange. Sentimental Value and the Worst Person in the World are almost like starter kit international films where when you're first starting to get into movies and you're like, okay, I'll start watching movies that are not in the English language. They're very easy movies to glide into international cinema. And then you can look at them and be like, okay, there's this history of Norwegian film, Scandinavian film. You find Bergman, you start finding French films, you find the new wave, you move over to Asia, you start looking at Japanese films. So I, you know, you know what I'm saying?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I do, yeah. It's a. It's like a. It's a bridge. It's a bridge. Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes, it's a bridge. So I would say sentimental value in part because of that and is very watchable and has stars in it, is way ahead in that race. But you know what? I could be wrong. I don't know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, right now we're trying to decide whether F1 is above the Secret Agent or not. And I.

[Sean Fennesee]

And so very cool game.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That to me is like a little bit overcorrecting for your cowardice in your nominations predictions. And ultimately, I leave it to you, you know, you didn't have the strength of your convictions that morning. Do you want to have them now,

[Sean Fennesee]

here's the problem with the way that we're doing this right now. It's not a problem. It's something I insist upon. F1 is in dead last in the best picture race. There's no question in my mind. Everybody is putting it at 10 unless you worked on the movie. And that's okay because it got there. It got to 10. But that's not what we're talking about right now. We're mixing it up.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Where did you put it in your preferential PGA ballot? Are you willing to share that with the public?

[Sean Fennesee]

I don't have a copy of that, but if you just look at my top 100, it's based on wherever the movies fell in my top 100.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And you don't have that.

[Sean Fennesee]

F1 was ahead of magnet.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, okay. That's right.

[Sean Fennesee]

F1 was also, I believe, ahead of Frankenstein. And it was also ahead of. That's it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

I mean, One Battle was my favorite movie of the year. Sinners was my number five. Secret Agent was my number six. And Sentimental Value was my number seven. And Marty was four. So, like, this is the most I've ever matched. This is the most I've ever matched with the Oscars, like, in my life as a fan.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Because all my Sean Fennesee. This is your life.

[Sean Fennesee]

I know all my peeps got nominated. Like all my people, you know, I've been tracking the Safdies for 15 years. I've been PTA since I was 12 years old, you know. So this is very strange to be. To be chalk. I am the living embodiment of chalk. Anyway, F1 at 8, secret agent at 7.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Someone's going to make a rude hat with that on it. And then you should wear it. I am the living embodiment of chalk.

[Sean Fennesee]

Did you see that? People literally made AI versions of me and Chris in the X Men costumes that we were talking about on the Oscar. Snubstrapped. Yeah, I'm not going to retweet AI shit, but they used AI to make it. So it was me as Thanos and CR as Cable. Okay, the time traveling.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What about some hand drawn. You know, let's put in the work and then I will. If someone actually makes it for real,

[Sean Fennesee]

you're asking for free labor. You're gonna pay. You'll pay for a hand drawn rendition of me as Thanos holding the Infinity Gauntlet with all of the gems.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But it also needs to be. Who is Chris Cable? Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah. And you're gonna be Kitty.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm not a part of this.

[Sean Fennesee]

You're Squirrel Girl.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm not. Did you know that Juliette Lippman is really into the X Men?

[Sean Fennesee]

Who isn't?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know about them, but I only learned this recently, and it was a little bit like, you know, I've been in this relationship, you know, this friendship and partnership with this person for 10 years, and then it's like when I married Zach and then he started golfing, I was like. I just. I didn't. This wasn't part of the terms.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think you are maybe the only exception in my life. And people that I fuck with who are not into X Men. Like, if you're not in X Men, we're not friends.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm not not into them. I just.

[Sean Fennesee]

They are also a portal to understanding yourself as an adolescent. And she probably watched X Men, the Animated Series, as we all did as young kids, except for you, because you were, like, playing the piano or something. Whatever the fuck you were doing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Excuse me?

[Sean Fennesee]

Something where you alienated yourself from world by being alone.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it wasn't by choice. It was someone else putting me in the room, but that's fine. Secret Agent.

[Sean Fennesee]

Imagine if you just got into X Men. How much better would our life be?

[Amanda Dobbins]

So the one guy.

[Sean Fennesee]

No, don't. Don't even do this. We can't even do the game where you remember the thing, but you don't know the thing. Not for X Men. It's too important for you to be like, there's a guy and there's a guy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They're coming back.

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, of course. That's why we're getting these Avengers films. They're going to find a way to launch the next phase so we can get X Men.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And this is all because Disney bought Fox.

[Sean Fennesee]

Exactly right. I think you could make the case that the single biggest reason they bought Fox was for the X Men.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is that worth it to you, Sean Fennesee?

[Sean Fennesee]

If the movies suck, no. Kill the whole studio.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. But if the movies are worth it, is it worth killing a whole studio?

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, I like an X Men movie, you know, and if you do it right, okay. All right, I'll consider it. I don't appreciate the shrinking of the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You think they're people?

[Sean Fennesee]

No, I don't think that there's shrinking of the number of studios. The job loss, I think is abhorrent, and I reject it. I have no control over it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is F1 above the secret Agent in our power rankings?

[Sean Fennesee]

It's at number eight, I think is the Secret Agent, ahead of Marty supreme, which might win zero Oscars but might

[Amanda Dobbins]

also win Best Actors.

[Sean Fennesee]

No. So Frankenstein is going to win probably two Oscars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Maybe one. Probably two.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

So does that go ahead of Marty?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Probably. Which is sad.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think it goes Marty at 6, Frankenstein at 5. And then I think we stick with sentimental value. Or is sentimental value ahead of Hamnet? Or just because it has Best Actress? It's good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is Hamnet going to win anything besides Best Actress? I'm thinking loud right now.

[Sean Fennesee]

Almost certainly not.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. So. And sentimental value, we're favoring an international feature.

[Sean Fennesee]

We are.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And possibly in a supporting category.

[Sean Fennesee]

Could be Stellan Skarsgrd. Could be Ingabstad. Or Lilia. Could be. Could be Rachel Kemp herself. Elle Fanning.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think it's going to happen in Supporting Actress. But you know, there is a lot of affection for Joachim Trier. I don't think he's going to pick up original screenplay or director though. So I think sentimental value for Hamnet. Three Sinners Two, One Battle One.

[Sean Fennesee]

I agree. Okay, that's it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think we learned a lot about ourselves.

[Sean Fennesee]

Which is what?

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the X Men, I think.

[Sean Fennesee]

Where would I listeners send some suggestions? Kdobbins, really? On any social media platform you like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I look at all of them.

[Sean Fennesee]

Where to start with X Men. Because you're a reader. You're a reader. No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, you want me to read?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like you watched Spider Verse.

[Sean Fennesee]

You watched Spider Verse with an open heart and you were moved and impressed by the use of color, the dynamism.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That is true.

[Sean Fennesee]

Comic books are again another kind of bridge to experiencing cinema and the great works. And the X Men is like a lot of stuff that you like. It's a coming of age story about complicated, stormy young people figuring it out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I enjoyed the X Men films that

[Sean Fennesee]

I have seen, which is only the Bryan Singer ones. Those are the ones you like.

[Amanda Dobbins]

X Men First Class, which is Inglourious Basterds, but with superheroes and also with James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender. My guys. I saw the second one. I think I did. I didn't see the last one. I have seen Logan.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay, good film.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I've seen Deadpool, Wolverine.

[Sean Fennesee]

Deadpool and Wolverine. They're not one person fused together. Aren't they well in advance?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think they want to be.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, they do. They're very in love.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And sorted other X Men cameos throughout the. So I am familiar.

[Sean Fennesee]

I think the original Singer movies are not bad. Setting aside the awfulness around Bryan Singer and in some cases, I love them. In some moments in the movie, I love them. But they never totally got it. And I'm waiting for a movie that will totally get it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

And I think it should be Joachim Trier who makes it. Just think about what he could do. He is a person who knows how to render that kind of inner turmoil. Of all the X Men, they're all kind of struggling with their power and their responsibility, the sense of teamwork and camaraderie. We're all mutants. Thank you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it was right there.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, yeah. And imagine hearing Renata Ranzva say that as Jean Grey, we would all be changed for the good. Okay. My middle name, just putting this on the record, is literally Xavier. I was named after.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

My middle name is after Professor X.

[Sean Fennesee]

That's fucking beautiful. And also, he's the dude in the wheelchair.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, right.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay. He's not a dude. He's a professor of the School for Giftedness.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's right. But, like, what's. What can he do?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

He's just super smart.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, no,

[Sean Fennesee]

he's a telepath.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Oh.

[Sean Fennesee]

And he can read the mind. That's why Magneto wears that fucking helmet, so that Charles can't get his old friend Charles can't get inside of his head.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It seems like you're taking on a lot when you can do that. Can you turn it off? Can you only listen to one thing at a time? Or is it just everyone talking all around the world? No.

[Sean Fennesee]

He has extraordinary control over this gift, but it does haunt him.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Does he? Does he. Has he always had control? Or did. Did he learn that at the School for X Men?

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, he started the school.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know.

[Sean Fennesee]

So I don't think he learned it at the school he started.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is there, like, a Batman McGins, Liam Neeson thing? What, that. What's that guy's.

[Sean Fennesee]

The Ra's Al Ghul? No, there's not a Ra's Al Ghul to Xavier, I don't think.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, not yet. Wow.

[Sean Fennesee]

You know, I don't really know a lot about Charles's youth.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Oh.

[Sean Fennesee]

But I also don't want, like. You don't want the first movie to be like, and then Charles was nine years old, and here was his trauma. If they give me that, I'm gonna be fucking pissed. I want Brand name. Drop me into the yellow and blue suit. I want latex on these motherfuckers. And I want Xavier in the chair telling them, here's how you fight in the Danger Room. That's what I need. This is some of the Best content I know how to make is talking about what X Men should be, and I feel good about it. This has really been a year for my youth, seeing all these Star wars movies now, thinking about Avengers, Doomsday, which I might hate, but could lead to good things. It's all happening here on the Big Picture. Okay, that was today's best picture power rankings and some X Men chatter brought to you by Volkswagen. A lot of these films wouldn't exist today without someone out there striving to chase after their dreams. So consider this a sign it's time to become the main protagonist in your life and go after what you want. Learn [e-mail] okay, Amanda, thank you for indulging all of my childhood fascinations.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I learned a lot.

[Sean Fennesee]

X Men, pta, vampires.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

What else?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Huntington, Long Island.

[Sean Fennesee]

Huntington. What an episode.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know.

[Sean Fennesee]

Geez. What a conversation. Now let's go to my conversation with Autumn Derald Arkhipoff. Autumn Derald Aripas here. Very happy to have you. You know, I don't have a lot of cinematographers on the show, and I was curious if you could tell me what the first movie you saw, maybe that didn't make you want to make films, but that had a big emotional impact on you.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yes. It's interesting you clarify that, because they are two different things. Right. I think it was the Last Emperor, to be honest.

[Sean Fennesee]

Ooh. How old were you?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I was probably 10 or 9 or something. Actually, my son is 10, so it feels like that zone of child.

[Sean Fennesee]

Are you showing him things like Bertolucci films?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

No, but I did have to watch Ben Hur the other day because I was doing the extras on the new Remaster, and he came in when I was re watching the Chariot Race, and I'm like, you have to go to bed. And he's like, no, no, I want to finish watching this. And he was mesmerized by it. So that's probably the most adult vintage film that I've let him watch a full film. But interesting.

[Sean Fennesee]

What struck you about the Last Emperor?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I feel like I'm always someone who loves scope and that cinematic phrase. So if something is cinematic, like, I love a big camera, a landscape, you know, like, I want to feel like I'm making a movie. And that movie felt like that. It was, like, beyond me. Like, I felt like I was, you know, I felt small, you know, and I felt like, what is this world? You know, this child. It felt real. Like that little kid felt like he was really the Last Emperor.

[Sean Fennesee]

That's really interesting. Cause Your last couple of films have been very big in scope, but your early work is not. And I was wondering if you kind of like. I know you didn't set out when you were 9 or 10 to do this, and did you stumble into it? How would you describe the way you got into this line of work?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I mean, I've always been a photographer. Like, I. Early on, I think I always had a camera with me. Not knowing that that was a career choice, but just I was very interested in capturing my family and friends. And then it progressed into, like, I'd say, college. I had a little camcorder, mini tv, and I'd make videos on an imovie and put music over them. And I still didn't know that that had, you know, wasn't like a filmmaker, but type of person. It was just like I wanted to capture my friends. And it wasn't until later, because I went to LMU for art history, that I decided that I wanted to look further into what the DP was doing. Because I saw two movies in a genre course, Broadway, Danny Rose and Raging Bull. And after that I was hooked. I'd write a paper on both. And then I started looking into what a DP did or what that meant, and I couldn't really find much. And I took an extension course at ucla. They had, like, a night course.

[Sean Fennesee]

Wow.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

For, like, cinematography. That was the first thing. My boss bought me, that course. I was working in advertising at a desk, and he bought me the course to go check it out.

[Sean Fennesee]

Black and white films. Why did they. Why did those hit?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I think. I mean, I just really, like. I remember the faces, like, in the. In just the world that both of those films built. And if you, like, look at the extras, like how they curate extras, both of those directors, you know, they're real people, real faces. It feels like a real world that they're building. And I'm a sucker for contrast and, like, you know, like, lighting as a character. So those. Both of those films, I feel like, do that really well.

[Sean Fennesee]

What happened after the extension course where you're like this. I'm gonna set myself on a path to being someone who does this professionally.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, I mean, it was really like, full force, I think, because, you know, I went to lmu and that's a school where. It's a great school in la, but it's loans. Right. So. And I think, you know, after that, I'm like, well, I want to learn how to do this. And the best place, if you don't have family or friends in the business is like, look at film schools. So I found AFI and I started working on sets because you can, like, work for free on their cycle films. And so I was a scripty and then a Griffin. And then the kids in the program are like, you should apply. You should apply to this program. And so that's kind of how I had my in. And I, you know, took out some loans, and I didn't get in my first year that I applied. I got in the second year.

[Sean Fennesee]

Interesting.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

And so I was just, like, committed. Like, I really felt like I wanted to do that job or at least learn it and see if I could succeed.

[Sean Fennesee]

You weren't stymied by not getting in the first year?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I was. I was. I mean, no one wants to be told no, you know, And I thought I had a pretty good reel. Like, it was mostly photography. And then I, like, pretended like I shot and put together, like, a compilation of shots, make it look like I had a short film. No. I was discouraged, but I still was like, I'm going to do this. And then I found a job because the advice was, go get more experience on set. You have no set experience. I think you should go get more experience. So I took a year off and quit my job in advertising, and I found a job as an AC on a documentary TV show called on the Road in America.

[Sean Fennesee]

What's an ac?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Assistant camera. So I was like, helping. I wasn't pulling focus because it was on Panasonic cameras at the time. I was like, you know, giving the DP filters and traveling around and in charge of all the camera equipment, setting up tripods, kind of like stuff like this, you know, like, stuff I could manage. But the focus was autofocus for the operator.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'm always curious about trying to get work when you do this line of work, because how do you. It's not like you're an actor where you are auditioning before a group and there's a call and you come in and you do it. Or if you're a writer, director, you create material and you send it off and you hope your agents can get interest from somewhere for what you do. How do you go from I went to AFI to I am not only getting jobs, but making a real living doing what I like.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah. No, it's funny because that's the question. Like, if I'm doing Q and A's, the students that come and then line up and want to talk. It's always like, how do I get to where you are, knowing that, like, I know you Went to school. And it's not. There's no formula, right? It's really about, like. I felt like the year that I got in that program. Had I gotten in the year before, my life would be completely different. It's the people that you surround yourself with that actually, like, create that path. So the students in the program become your best friends. And then when you graduate, they're the ones getting you jobs. You know, it's like, I can't do this job. Like, my classmate was like, you know, he was working with Giacoppola. He couldn't shoot that day of, like, a test shoot she was doing for Franco because he wanted to see, like, the vibe that she was creating for Palo Alto. And so he's like, I can't make it. Can you fill in for me? So I filled in for him. We were shooting, like, a test shoot, soccer. The soccer scene. And we hit it off. And then, you know, she's my best friend, you know, so it's like. It's those little things that create that, you know, so. And then you foster that by, like, you know, I'm always there for, you know, my friends. And you're doing a ton of free work. I mean, it's a lot of free work. You have to be prepared to really just put yourself out there and shoot stuff for free.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's really interesting. I'm curious about the. The Gia collaborations, because you've now worked with her on every film that she's made. And they're very different from Ryan's movies. And it feels like they feel handheld. They feel much more grounded and smaller budgetarily at least. So were those. You said you were into Scope. You were in a big movie. So how do you situate yourself? I assume part of it is just, I really want to get a job and I've connected with someone, but. But talk about artistically getting in line with something that isn't exactly how you saw yourself making films.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, no, it's a good point. Cause I would say I gravitated. There were more indie French films that I think I saw were like, Wong Kar Wei films that were like, you knew, those were made with a group of people over a very long period of time, probably just running around kind of vibe. But you're not wrong. I do like those bigger, scopey movies. But you have to wait for that part of your career to catch up with you, because you don't always. It's like the industry sees Palo Alto, and then it becomes like, oh, she's doing the Kind of teenage movie and then you're getting offered teenage rom coms or you get pigeonholed in that kind of process. And because we were making that with friends and running around, which is fun, that's kind of how Last Showgirl was made too, on a different level. But no, it took me a while to kind of get people to offer me other stuff. And then that would be a Loki. Then Loki comes and finally it has some scope. Those are big episodes, big budget, we could play around. So I was wanting that before I got offered that. But I also had a son, so I took a little bit of time off. So yeah, you're not wrong. I was trying to get out of that teenage, more indie.

[Sean Fennesee]

That's interesting. I have a couple questions about Loki. So I feel like there's an agreed upon visual style to some extent in that world of storytelling. And there's a larger apparatus, I assume, for creative approval than when you're working with someone like Gia, who you know, and you're working with a small crew and it's a smaller budget. But even though you want it to get bigger in scope, how do you get comfortable working differently?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, I mean, anyone who works in film, I mean, I'm generalizing, but it's like low budget, big budget, there's never enough time and there's never enough money. A lot of the job on big budget stuff, you have more management, right? Because there's more money, there's more management. And also it's like, you know, you have a bigger SFX team or maybe there's more visual effects or maybe you're traveling a whole crew somewhere like Puerto Rico and you have to shoot a big scene there, you know, so it's, you know, I love that when you start out in indie, you have to make something from nothing look amazing. So you're really good at like, you know, knowing what you want and telling someone else what you want quickly. And in order to like have, you know, a small amount of resources but make something look like it's more expensive. So if you dabble in that pool for a while, you get very good at that. Right. Like, you know how to use the sun, you know how to schedule the day in order to get the best shot. You know, how to tell people what you're looking for. You know, you walk in a room and I can tell you like, what's, what's the scene about? And I can really figure out, you know, what it's going to take to make that look good. And so then you jump to Bigger budget stuff. It's like. It's really like management, and you have to. You know, there's money on the line, but it's also. You're answering to studio. Whereas before on small stuff, you're more in charge. Like, you're. You have all the power to make those decisions. But that was a really good project where we could kind of reinvent the wheel. Like, you know, they were doing the three streamers. You know, the whole world could be new. Tom was a real, like, proponent in, like, let's do something great. Let's. Let's really, like, break the mold here. So that helps when you have someone that's backing you as lovely as him. So, yeah, I mean, it's a lot of management. It's something that no one wants to talk about because, like, oh, creative. It's amazing.

[Sean Fennesee]

But, yeah, I mean, you just have such an interesting stark contrast. It almost feels like it's like phase one and phase two, to use the terminology of the mcu. Before we get into Sinners and your relationship with Ryan, you know, you have two credits with Khalil, Joseph and Spike on docs, and I really like both of those docs that you worked on. And I'm curious. And they're very different. Khalil's film and the Beastie Boys movie. So how did you get involved in those? And is that something that you also are still interested in pursuing, or what's your relationship to documentary in general?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Well, that's cool. Yeah, I worked with Khalil again. I met Khalil through a classmate at afi and we did a lot of stuff. He was doing the Arcade Fire kind of documentary, but we were covering various concerts within that year. So I did the LA concert, actually. Lowell Crawley did the London one. I think Malik Said did the Montreal one. And then I did Haiti and the LA one.

[Sean Fennesee]

And so that's an insane trio, by the way.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, then it was. You know, these were people that I think I might have known Lowell because, like, we would exchange messages and stuff because we had some mutual friends. I have yet to meet Malik.

[Sean Fennesee]

He's like a mystery man.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Well, I messaged him his first film

[Sean Fennesee]

credit in, like, 20 years last year. It's crazy.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

No, he's a goat, for sure. And I almost had a chance to meet him recently. But so it was really cool because if you watch the whole thing, they're all very different shows, especially the Haiti one. And so I love that stuff that I did with Khalil. He also creates a family. You feel like. Like, you're in a community. I'm good friends with Bradford Young. He's someone who recommended me to Ryan. And so Bradford's earlier work with Khalil, there's some say, Georges, I don't know if you've seen this stuff. It's beautiful. And I remember when I saw it, I was like, who shot that? And then the producer was like, I'll connect you. And that was the first time I was connected with Bradford after I saw that work, because it was so singular and I needed to know who shot it. And then obviously, Bradford. But so I love doing that stuff. You know, I. I met a lot of great people in traveling with them and creating, like, communities with these people that I was making stuff with. And then, you know, Spike with Gia. Like, I. Obviously, he was aware of my work with her. And so I met Spike and I did both of those together. Like, we. I knew that I was signing on to both, and they were one after the other. And I actually just did a commercial with Spike, so I reunited with him recently for Instacart for the super bowl with Ben Stiller. So it's just.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

You're working with people you. You want to be friends with. Honestly, I mean, that's the way that I feel. They're people that I would hang out with outside of work. We get along well. They're very, like. Yeah, to use the word again, like singular. It's like these. These people have a very clear vision of how they like to do things, and I love that, you know,

[Sean Fennesee]

I mean, I hope this is received in the right way. Cinematographers and directors and their relationships are always really interesting. Sometimes they're like true partnerships and they share, and sometimes they have a kind of adversarial quality that does create something special, at least in my understanding of movie history. What do you want? What do you pursue? Do you want a little tension, a little friction? Do you want it to just be, we are same page, lockstep all the way through? Like, how do you think about it?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I mean, I feel like I have made choices with people that are good people, that respect the crew, that respect the crew's time, that bring me on to break bread, because they know that I will add to that vision and have something to offer. So it's a very kind of good environment, you know, I mean, we're in the thick of it. Like, when I'm doing movies with Ryan, you know, these are big projects, so stuff comes up where it's like, we're in war, we're Trying to make the movie, but we're always on the same page. I'm there to support that person. That's my job and their vision. And so if I pick people that have visions that align with mine, it goes better for me not to say I haven't done projects with. I won't name those projects, but with people where it did not go great and then you don't work with those people again. Or you just know it's not the right fit. Cause it's too much of a time commitment in your own personal self insanity. I feel like to work with someone you don't like.

[Sean Fennesee]

Don't I know it. I'm curious about what happens before you start shooting with a movie like Sinners. You could speak to this for Wakanda Forever too though. I know it's a somewhat different experience, but I know the story of it being presented as a 16 millimeter project and then that changing at a certain point. But. But for you, maybe personally, singularly, individually, and then also you and Ryan, like, what are you doing before the shoot begins?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, I mean, because I met him on Wakanda, like there is no movie that's, in my opinion that's gonna be bigger than that. I mean, maybe if we do another movie. Cause he's just always doing. He's always up in the ante. Every time I get a phone call, it's like, we're doing that.

[Sean Fennesee]

What.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

So but on that project, it lasted a year long. And you know, if you. Which you've seen it. And so it's like, you know, we did Underwater, you know, we traveled a bit on that project. I mean, we were doing so much stuff on that movie and it lasted a year long. So it's like you really get to know somebody and like how they like to make films. And we make those films with the same team. So we got very close and we. And emotionally that film was kind of a big deal for Ryan. And so it was like we were all really there for him and each other. And so it was a great experience, but it was a lot of work. It was a lot of hard work. And so in going into Sinners, it's funny, cause I always say, like, oh, Sinners might have been harder. And Ryan's like, really? But I think for me, it's like I care so much about him that it's always the first thing that for me is like him telling me what the movie means to him and what he's after. And so it's as simple as that. It's like a phone call he gives me. I read the script, I send him an email because we're not living in the same town. And I kind of give my thoughts. I read the Sinner script the night before I shot Showgirl. And so I wanted to get all my thoughts out because that's when he sent it to me. And then we had a phone call after I finished that because it was like an 18 day shoot, so it wasn't very long. And he just talks to me, he tells me what's important to him. We talk about character arc. He usually gives me a reference that means something that's very important. But that's the call. It's like he's that kind of filmmaker. It's like it's all inside of him. And he's so unique in how he writes and the characters he creates that like, I want to hear what it means to him. And so I'll take notes, I'll write that stuff down. And it happened on Wakanda too. Like there are a lot of through lines and kind of things that were important to him in that film. Like the female characters were more prominent in this round of film and migration. And so all these things. I take notes. Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

What is that? How instructive is that script for you in terms of the moves, the look for sinners in particular? Sort of. Is he describing on the page? Cause I haven't read the screenplay where the camera's moving, where it's going, what we're seeing in those moments in a specific way that you want, or that then becomes a discussion point between the two of you. I think I'm very curious about that partnership and kind of landing on what the film becomes versus what he puts on the page at the start.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

No, there isn't. And it's interesting cause I just did a Q and A, a crafts Q and A. And Hannah Buechler, who's his production designer, who's like a sister to me, she was mentioning that since. Cause she's done everything with him since the first time. There's less description. And she was like, I wonder if that's. Cause like we're a team now. And like, you know, there's. You know, it's also. When you probably start out, maybe there's more description.

[Sean Fennesee]

It does feel like every department head now has been consistent over the last couple of movies too. Where it's like, you guys must have a hive mind a little bit with how you're working on the films.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

No, it's very nice. I mean, you have to really find your place in the world. But if your world is filmmaking, it's very important. I feel like I thrive in the right environment. I've put myself in a place where, you know, I can do my best work. And I always tell students, I was like, go look for that place, because you don't know what it is until you find it. And you might not. You might be in that place and it's not the right place, but you have to take a jump. So with him, I do feel like, you know, it's always so fleshed out. Like the characters feel so full and real realized, which is very nice. You feel like you can't put it down when you read his scripts. Like, they're very good. He's a very good screenwriter. It's funny, I'm always surprised by that after I read, I'm like, damn, that was a good script. Because, yeah, I don't get that many of them. And so I'll text me like, you're really good at this. And very genuinely. Yeah. So no, it's, you know, it's not in there. But he's very clear. Like, he loves how to move the camera, as do I. And so when we're in our prep and we're boarding, he likes to board everything. And we do previs on more complex things. It's all there. Like in prep, we go over it and for instance, the grocery store one or that's something that he wanted so that it was a very fluid shot that could show the black side of the street and the white side of the street. So that's like a shot, for instance, that we talk about. Because he wants to do that in prep. And I have to figure out how to make that execute it logistically, because it's very complex with lighting and camera. The oner inside the juke, that's something that's written. It was written in like a paragraph in italics. But we figure it out in prep. Like, you know, he's like, I would like it to be one fluid shot, you know, so what tool do you think, you know, we're using there? And, you know, it's a discussion. So stuff like that. It's all very much like certain things I think he has in his mind are oners or shots. And then we discuss it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Do you like a harder sequence like that? A more challenging sequence?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I do, yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

Just because it's a problem solving thing that is fun. What aspect of it do you enjoy?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I mean, I love stuff and he's someone that I think I thrive in that environment where it's like, the more difficult, the better. I'm very technical and I love working things out and I love that it ultimately doesn't look technical. Does that make sense?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, yeah, of course. That's how those movies feel. They feel like you are inside them.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yes, exactly. I want people to feel it. Like, I want you to watch it and to feel it here. And so all the stuff that goes into that takes such a big team, so many people working it out. But if you've done your job really well, then they don't feel like it's a shot in that way. They don't feel the hand of the creator. So he's like that. He's always like, you know, we're going to shoot large format and orca's going to jump over the freeway and we're going to have a fight sequence. You know, it's like everyone's going to act underwater and we're going to figure it out, you know, And I'm like, game on. You know, I have a really good crew, and so it's fun. It's a fun job when you have someone like that that wants to open up the box.

[Sean Fennesee]

I know you're very technologically minded when it comes to a lot of this. And I said before we started, like, I would love for you to talk to me and the listeners of the show, like, I'm 11. So, like, I know anamorphic lenses is really important to you. Why? What does that mean? And why is that important? Is something. Because you can speak to its value, but, like, help us understand on a really ground level why this matters to the film and what it accomplishes.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, no, I'll speak to it like, if you're 11, because I think even till this day, like, I do a lot of commercials and I love the anamorphic format. And then you'll say, let's shoot this commercial anamorphic, and the agency won't understand, or it's too complex or VFX will push back or whatever. And it's like, it's an understanding of something that they're making more technical than it needs to be. For me, it's a feeling. It's a lens. It's a particular format, but it's a lens that makes me feel differently. And that's why I like to use it. And that's where it came from originally. With me, with 70s films, if I saw Manhattan, it's like, why does that look. Look different? Why does Manhattan look different to me? You know, it was shot in anamorphic. And so for me, early on, I think like Vilmos Zigman, Laszlo Kovacs, like these films, like I was watching these films and they felt vintage, they felt different, they felt textured. And so then I was like, what is that? So at film school I would take out an anamorphic lens and I was shooting it mostly on film, 35 millimeter. So, you know, it's a squeeze factor. So it's taking a lens and squeezing it so it fits. Squeezed like if you're 11. So just like we're squeezing the image onto a film gate and then we're unsqueezing it in projection. So you can do this in digital as well. Obviously you unsqueeze it digitally instead of, you know, you're not unsqueezing it in projection. So it just, it has a different feeling. I'm getting twice the width, so I'm getting more field of view in the width and it feels scopey. It's why they say shoot it in scope.

[Sean Fennesee]

What about the edge of the frame? That's something that I'm always.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Oh, that.

[Sean Fennesee]

Well, that's that kind of effect that you get while watching it. What creates that? Why is that interesting to you visually?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, I mean I do stuff to my lenses to make. If you're talking about more fall off or aberration field curvature to get nerdy. All of these things like all work with Panavision. I'm like 90%. My whole career I've shot with Panavision glass. And early on in film school because I liked this anamorphic format. And also we're talking about aspect ratio, right? So it's like spherically you can get a widescreen aspect ratio. But I tend to like a movie that has more width. And so you're talking about black bars on top and bottom. Right. If you're looking at your TV, that's a 1:7:8 to 1 ratio. So like it's going to fill your TV screen. That ratio was created for television. I don't like that ratio because it's not a real film ratio. But that's another conversation.

[Sean Fennesee]

Why were our TVs not created in the same way as our movie screens?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Well, that's the thing to get people. Yeah, you're staying home for a certain ratio. But also. So 16 by 9, which is 178. So those two ways you can say it. So yeah, so with anamorphic, I would take out anamorphic lenses from Panavision. They were more expensive at the time, so I couldn't afford renting them, but they would give me different series, so different flavors. And what I mean by that is some were created in the 70s, some were created in the 80s. So all these different glass have different coatings on them, chemical coatings that they don't really use anymore, which create different refractions of light, different bouquet, different flares, like, color of the flare, like, all this stuff. And so I got really used to knowing the different sets and series of lenses at Panavision and also just falling in love with glass and knowing what that means. And so a lot of the stuff on the edges, like, I'll detune the glass so that it has more fall off and brings your eye more to the center. Because I center punch most. That's.

[Sean Fennesee]

What does that mean?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I always put the character in the center of frame. It's a stronger frame for me. It's how I like to. To frame, but also, like, you have to chase that. So if I'm framing you and you're gonna get up from this table and you're gonna walk over there to Jack, and you're gonna do something like that whole. If I'm following you and panning with you, I'm gonna keep you always in the center. And then say, I'm. Say someone comes into the frame and you're now shooting an over. I'm still gonna keep you in the center. So the shoulder and the over is gonna be far left or far right, but I'm always gonna keep you in the center. And. And for me, it's an elegant way of framing, but it's also something that feels right to me.

[Sean Fennesee]

That's such a definitive choice in the film that. Is that something that you're verbally discussing with Ryan? Because that approach creates real iconography for somebody like Michael B. Jordan. It makes him more of a movie star. When you're always center framing someone, that every movement that they make, we are trailing them in the middle. So that's such an artistic choice. And then is that something that you guys are discussing? Is it just understood because you're both, you know, film artists and you understand the technology better than someone who's just watching a movie and enjoying it?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, I mean, I. I do it. It's. It comes like. It's a personal choice. Like, I can't now. I can't get out of it. Like, this is like when. If I have a B camera operator, like, I'm like, you know, cha. I'm like on the comms yelling at them. Like, you have to fix that. But I work with the same people, so they know about my center punching. And then when they go work for someone else, it messes the other person up that doesn't want that. Right, Right. No. I think on Panther would be our first time doing it, you know, so he. He's familiar with that. You know, it's something that I like to do. And, you know, when you're starting to work with someone for the first time and you're doing tests or. But they also. They see your work, you know, so it's, you know, you're being hired for your expertise and your taste. So I'm sure Ryan's very smart. So it's like, you know, he knows that's something that I like, but when he doesn't want that, then he'll tell me. I remember there was a frame that we were doing with m' Baku and Shiri in the forest, and he asked me to put her, like, they were more weighted on the left side, you know, of the frame, because he wanted to fill m' Baku's weight, like, imposing on her. It was such a beautiful choice. And I remember when he came up to me, he's like, you know, let's adjust this. And I was like, huh? You know, like my. Because I have to. Because I have this tick. And it was beautiful. And it was funny. After we shot it, I was like, that was really good. And I went up to him and I was like, that was amazing. And I remember if you watch that scene back, I should text it to you. That frame, it's very important and it was a really cool choice. So there's those. Those kind of conversations you'll always have with, like, if you want to adjust it from that for, you know, a bolder choice, you do it. But, yeah, it's how I like to frame, to be honest.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's really cool. But it is, like, definitional, you know, it doesn't just become your style, but it becomes the style of the film in a way that maybe it wasn't even the original intent, but only you are bringing that to it. So that's just like, incredible detail.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

It works well with this, like, two ratio thing as well, too, because.

[Sean Fennesee]

Can you. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. So it's IMAX 65 and Panavision 70.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, it's.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

So it's ultra, the phrase. And this is really proprietary to them when they made it in the 50s. Ultra Panavision 70. So the 70 comes from the film projection. Right?

[Sean Fennesee]

It's different from Super.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Well, super Panavision is A different format. That's a 221 different lensing. So the Ultra Panavision 70 is an anamorphic format. So it's a 1.3 squeeze lens. So that's just the math of the squeeze. And then when you unsqueeze it, it gives you a 2.76:1 aspect ratio. And so that is proprietary to Panavision. And so that's a system. So it's like if you shoot like hateful 8 shot ultra panavision 70. So if you're going to put on a poster, for instance, because that's what happens.

[Sean Fennesee]

And that's so wide.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

It's very wide. Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

So. But IMAX is tall.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Exactly. So if I'm center punching when I'm shooting and it's 65 millimeter, even though it's coined with the 70 projection. So it's 65 millimeter, 5 perf. And then we also shot 65 millimeters, same film stock, 15 perf for IMAX. So it's taller. But if I'm center weighting the character in the frame and the crosshair of the 143 aspect ratio, which is. Is the tall aspect ratio, when I go to do my 276 extraction, the person is still centered in the frame. Right. And you're cropping the top and bottom. So it's very helpful if you do center punch. And you're really elegant about chasing that. Is that when you go to do your extraction. For all the viewers that view the 276, because that's most 90% of the theaters.

[Sean Fennesee]

Typical laser projection.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Exactly. You're not having to do too much adjustment. Like obviously we, we did. You know, when you do your QC and your DCP and you have to do pan and scan, you know, if you have to find the frame and make sure that like if I chop the 276 that I'm not chopping like Jack's head off, you know, is that

[Sean Fennesee]

something that you knew? Is that inform the center framing in a way where you're like, if we're going to do this audacious kind of double format approach to it that we need, there's only kind of one way to shoot the movie. Like where there have been other ways to have done it to accomplish that. So you're still getting enough in the frame no matter how it's being projected.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I mean, I guess it's a bonus that I love to do that.

[Sean Fennesee]

Right.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

And it works out. But like I operate a camera and I have a crazy ground glass. Right. So if I'M shooting IMAX in my ground glass. I have 1 90, which is the digital IMAX projection, which is not your full. Right. If you went to City Walk or if you go to Burbank Town, you know, you're getting the 190. And so I had the 143, the 190, the 276. Also, I think I had ticks in there for 239, which is irrelevant, but they were there. Confusing. You know, this is like.

[Sean Fennesee]

This is a lot. I mean, and it is like, a fascinating series of choices that, you know, I've seen the movie in a couple different formats. I've actually not. I've seen it at home, but not on typical, like, AMC laser projection. I've been able to see it, I think, in 70 and in IMAX.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

And did you go to City Walk?

[Sean Fennesee]

I saw it at the IMAX headquarters.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Oh, you did. Oh, okay. So you went to space.

[Sean Fennesee]

I'm very spoiled and lucky, but I get to see it there. I know that's where you guys tested it, right?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Exactly. So that was a nice print. Did you sit up top and in the center, not in the front?

[Sean Fennesee]

I sat center. Right. Which is my preference.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Like, back to center. Right.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Every seat's kind of not bad there. Like.

[Sean Fennesee]

No, it's like, I always say it's the best movie theater in America, but not a lot of people get to go there. So I don't like to brag too much.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sean Fennesee]

But, yeah, I mean, all of this is. It's simultaneously very confusing and very interesting. And, you know, Ryan has been such an advocate for format and the way that you see something and helping people understand. It's been kind of a signature aspect of promoting the movie and even the awards campaign. And I think it's good to make fans a little bit nerdier about these things. You know, I assume this has been fun for you to also, you know, explain the work that you do in a way that, like, most DPs never get to.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm here, right? Like, I feel like it's one of those things where you see now on, like, Instagram where, like, they want to know more. Like, they don't just want to know, like, oh, you know, the things that, you know, the normal bts. It's like people are becoming their own filmmakers now. Like, the. The tools are tinier. They are being, you know, social and putting people out there, making little films with smaller cameras. So even though you're making a Big film. They want to know how you made that film. And so it's been fun to talk about. And then Ryan also cares about the audience, so he wants to put that information in their hands so they can go and make choices on projection. Because it does mean if I want to see the movie and I want to see exactly what I saw, then I have to go to City Walk to see it because I want. Or if you see the IMAX headquarters screening, but otherwise everyone's seeing a cropped version, which is a different feeling, different film.

[Sean Fennesee]

Is it painful for you to watch it that way?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

No, because I love, like, for instance, the Dolby. Dolby pass that we did. You know, higher contrast ratio. So, like deep blacks, beautiful projection. And I really like that. And the Dolby is only 2.76, so.

[Sean Fennesee]

Interesting.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

What was the most challenging sequence, image, moment in the movie to actually capture, to pull off?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I've answered that a lot because I think people think I'm gonna say something else, but for me it's really the ending. I think for me, the most challenging stuff is the stuff that has the most vfx. Because I'm not, you know, it's something that I can't control in the moment.

[Sean Fennesee]

I wanted to ask you about that because I know Wakanda Forever also had it, but the movie, almost like. I don't know. I'm sure you didn't shoot linearly, but the final 10 minutes is very different visually. Daytime VFX shots in the frame. So what's hard about that? Why is that so tough?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Well, actually not the daytime stuff. The fight in the river when he is in flames.

[Sean Fennesee]

Right.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

So obviously. But funny enough. Or not funny enough, but we did shoot sfx, had a guy in stunts, had a guy in fire suits. So someone was on fire in that pool of water. And we did shoot it as a reference. Right. Because then they have to manipulate it. And we did a pass with Jack and then we did a pass with Stunts and then we put everything together and that's what becomes the VFX shot. So I think for me, I always want that stuff to look as real as possible. Now, like, no one's gonna shoot a guy burning alive, obviously, but that would be. That would be the way to get the best looking thing, is doing every. Everything for real.

[Sean Fennesee]

They used to do pretty cool.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

So it's like, I'll kind of burn myself for this. But no, it's like. So I just want to make sure that the audience is always in it and is not. Nothing is broken Right. So that is where I put the most pressure on myself to make sure that I work with our VFX supervisor, Michael Rolla. And we're close. We. We met on Panther. He did our second unit. He was our second unit supervisor. So we have a very close working relationship. And it's always rooted in as much as in camera as possible. As much as in camera reference to give him as possible so that ultimately the image looks as real as possible. And I don't feel the hand of this, like, vfx, you know, hand. So that scene, it's also a night shoot, which is very difficult. We had the structure of, like, when the Sun Rises, we have to wrap, so we're always chasing that right in time. And, you know, when you do stunts in something really complex like that wires and all that stuff that we had to do, it takes a lot of time and can be very tedious. So that was the hardest scene for me, I think. And mostly just because there was a lot of elements that needed. And then the sunrise.

[Sean Fennesee]

I just asked Paul Thomas Anderson this, and I'm wondering how you would answer it. There are a few moments in the movie that I would describe as ecstatic. Certainly I lied to you moment that you described earlier. The sort of. Of traveling through the musical history at the juke joint, the Rocky Road to Dublin sequence, I think, is also similarly kind of fills you up. How do you know when you're on set that you're kind of getting it? You know, that you're getting the idea that Ryan has the vision that you have for it, the collaboration. All the departments are feeling excited about what they have. The actors feel good, and you're like, we got it right on this take, on this day, like. Like, how do you know?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

You just know.

[Sean Fennesee]

What does that mean?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I think. Well, there's layers to that, right? So it's like, if you put yourself in a community of filmmakers where you guys have the same taste and you're after the same vision, that helps, right? Because I know Ryan really well, and I know what he likes and I know what he doesn't like. And I know that it's all rooted in the emotion of something. And as an operator, like, I know when that's coming, like, getting, you know, when the audio, when it's getting across to the audience, like, I know in my heart, I know in my eye, like, I know when I see it, I'm in the church, I'm operating the crane. I'm seeing Saul give that performance with Miles. And I know, like, I Can see it because I'm looking at it through an eyepiece or on a monitor and you feel it. And it's as simple as that. Like, when you're working with this caliber of actors and you know how Ryan works with them on set, like, you can feel it. You feel it in the space and you know when you know the take. That's right. Like ultimately, like in editorial, because that process is, you know, after, you know, I shoot it, I'm always excited to see him. And Michael Shaver's passive something because it's always beautiful. And, you know, I feel the weight of it is much more than me doing, like multiple takes and knowing which take is great.

[Sean Fennesee]

Are you ever surprised by what they choose?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I was, I don't know on this film was so elegant. I, you know, I was just. I loved every take and I loved every scene. I think most of the movie got used. I think there's probably a couple things that are on the DVD thing. But no, it was, it was, it was just beautiful. Like, this was a great film and you, you knew it on set, that it was great. You knew it was special. You didn't know what was going to happen ultimately, like, what has happened. But yeah, you know, like the rocky road to Dublin. People are bringing their A game and Ryan's very excited. He's running around again with the sun. We had to rush because the sun was coming up, but we got it. There were things that Ryan wanted. Obviously, we tipped down to his feet. So he's watching. He's right there next to the lens with the operator. So if it's on Steadicam, like I'm watching on a monitor and talking to my operator. But yeah, I mean, it's a feeling.

[Sean Fennesee]

One thing I was curious to hear you speak about. Talked to our friend Van about this before. We were just talking about the way that this studio looks and is lit. But, like, different faces need to be lit differently. And there has to be like a real sensitivity to the way that different actors with different coloring have to be shot. So how do you know to have the right sensitivity to that? And how do you balance what the actor wants with what the filmmaker wants, with what you want? And what is the right middle ground there? Because obviously, especially well known actors, you know, they have a lot of sensitivities to these things.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, I mean, every film's different. So if I'm doing like, like, like, for example, like with Pamela, I'll just start there and then I'll go into the other one.

[Sean Fennesee]

Pamela Anderson Yeah, right.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Like that was a movie that we were making. She wasn't wearing makeup. Like, she trusted gni. You know, there was some makeup. Like Jamie had a look, a vibe, but like Jamie Lee Curtis. But like, and then, you know, Dave Bautista, he had a wig, obviously. And so there were certain looks, but like, there was a trust there with Pamela that she just wanted to be herself and raw. So, like, that's lovely. Then there's the other side of that where it's like. And I'm not sure I've, you know, I've mostly maybe done it more on commercial work. Or if you have someone that, that wants to be lit a specific way and then you're gonna have, you know, a talk about it as a dp, that's difficult. Right, like, and say it's someone who's older that wants to be filled in and lit a completely different way that is different than the world you're creating on set. And that's hard, right? Because it's like, I'm always gonna think about the story and the world I'm creating on set and then try and make that person look good within that same framework. But if I have to light someone completely separate from everybody else, it's not gonna feel of the same world. And you've seen those movies, right, where you're just like, oh, now we're in that zone.

[Sean Fennesee]

There's Vaseline on this lens. Yeah. Why?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, it's like this person is high key lit, but then the guy isn't. And it's like, well, what are they? What pool of light is this person?

[Sean Fennesee]

You can always tell.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yes. So not my favorite. And then there's this movie where it's like, Ryan is very trusting. You know, he knows how much I love lighting and how much I like it to be a character. But also like top light. I really like top light. And if I'm doing night exterior, like, I want to use a top lit source that recreates the moon. Especially if you're in the middle of Nowhere in the 1930s, that's what's going to be lighting these people. But then you get, you know, you're going to get a darker eye and everyone has to be okay with that. There's a lot of hats in the film. Everyone has to be okay with that. But I am shooting a horror vampire movie. So if I'm getting a call from someone saying, like, oh, people's eyes are looking too dark. It's like, I am shooting a vampire horror movie and Ryan and I are on the you know, we're on the same page as far as, like, what that means for the film and that, you know, having people fall in, in and out of shadow is a beautiful thing. And trusting that and trusting that, like, you know, I like to light black people in a certain way, that it makes them look beautiful. And I don't feel like to make somebody that's darker skin look beautiful, I have to shed a lot of light on them and over light them because someone's afraid that they're going to go into darkness because there's reflective qualities of darker skin that are also beautiful. So there's all these things that come up, for sure, but you have to just be brave about it and say, this is the vision. And the people around you that are going to be like. Like, you know, aware of that. You have to just say, I got this. Like, this is the right call.

[Sean Fennesee]

That makes a lot of sense.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennesee]

Hearing you describe it as a vampire horror movie. Was there a movie maybe just for you or maybe between you and Ryan that you discussed, that was, like, the most useful reference for how it should look, the thing.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, Well, I think it's for how it should look. He gave me, like. I mean, we work in a. It's like, I don't feel like him and I are always like, this is how the movie should look. Like example A. Because we work more from here. Right. It finds itself a little bit differently because I'm so much a person that loves to work with the designer and the costume designer, like Ruth and Hannah, and we're all such a collaborative team that we're building a space that feels real and is referenced from the 30s now. It's more stylized. Right. And then you take liberties there. But the thing is, like, one of his favorite films, he brought it up. I love that film. Also anamorphic. The tension it creates, it's moody, it's textured. So all of those I draw from all of that. Right. It's not that we're. That's, like the reference, but it's a reference for lots of different things. And then the photographs that he gave me were black and white photographs from Eudora Welty. That was my biggest draw, but it wasn't for lighting. Like, I feel like I create. I feel like I have to create that with the designer a little bit because, you know, we're making it out of nothing. You know, she built every set.

[Sean Fennesee]

So are those photographs, like, out of creating a sense of reality or authenticity or, like, what is it that. Is it communicating?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I mean, it's a feeling, right? There's so much humanity in those photographs that he sent me after I got the book. You know, it's like this one moment in time that feels so special, and it's real, right? So you're looking at something that, you know, this woman was walking around, she was a short story writer in the 1930s, and it was all there for her, like it was happening before her eyes. And, you know, it's like I always thrive off of looking at photography references because they're real people in real spaces, and that's what I'm doing. We're playing make believe. Like, let's, you know, just be real here. It's like, it's storytelling, but, like, it's all make believe. And I need to make it so real that you believe that it. It's true. Like, you believe Michael's two people, you believe he's a vampire, you believe Cornbread's out there. You know, like, these are. Have to feel like real people. And so if everyone's doing their job at a really high level, it does feel like that photograph. And so that's what I'm after. I'm trying to make it, like, as good as that photograph that Ryan was like, because that's what he liked about the photographs. Yeah, it was a world that, you know, felt really like his uncle's world, you know, when he was listening to the. The blues music on the porch.

[Sean Fennesee]

Just hearing you say the thing immediately reminded me of the scene where Kornbread's at the juke joint door. And I was like, that's almost the thing scene in the movie, you know, where he's like, what is ha. What is the truth of what is happening inside of this person?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

That was scary when we shot that, dude. It was scary.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's really. I mean.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Cause, you know, I'm operating, right? And he's just, like, about to. And we shot at high speed, so the camera's very loud, 60 frames.

[Sean Fennesee]

I wanted to ask you in general, is the IMAX camera, like, just different load? Harder. Harder on actors?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yeah, I mean, it's a whole different ball of wax. Right? So it's one of those things where, like, everyone's just on board because you're not gonna get a more beautiful image from anything, in my opinion, now that I've shot it. So. And I thought that when I saw the Dark Knight, you know, and the bank sequence, I was like, is there anything better than this fucking scene?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes, there is not. Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

When you get that camera in your hands, you're ultimately very aware of like what it can do. And so you want to like, you know, really utilize it. And it's louder, but doesn't matter because you want to utilize it. So you kind of create a world where everyone, you know, well, you have to have the best technicians because like the focus pulling on that is insane. And the loud aspect of it, it's like Ryan turn scenes that were supposed to be anamorphic into imax. So then he has to have a talk with the actors to make sure they're okay with it because it's like a lawnmower. So say you're there and I'm two to three feet from your face and you have to pretend like you're not shouting over a camera.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, yeah. I talked to Adrian Brody and Brady Courbet about that with the VistaVision camera on Brutalist 2, where it's like LOL. Obviously had to operate that with all of those close ups and the intimacy. It just seems like it is the way that things used to work and then we stopped doing it. And actors have gotten more comfortable with digital over the years too, where like the performance styles I feel like, have to change pretty dramatically to be able to work in that way. I'm always curious to hear how actors feel about that too.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Well, it's also like they're doing a great job, right?

[Sean Fennesee]

Yeah, no, it's working in this movie for sure.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

And then, I mean, they do ADR after. But there's still a guide track there. And there's still a feeling that you need to capture in order to remember that later. Right. Because you know, like on that resolution, on a hundred foot screen in Lincoln center, like you see everything. So if someone's not doing a great job and you feel like there's a loud camera in the space, like audiences are gonna see that. But they did a beautiful job. And yeah, it's a slower pace. There's a respect that needs to happen on set for that type of pacing and camera system. It's kind of goes back to what we were talking about. Like we're making a movie, you know, you know, the Ben Hur of it all and the Lawrence of Arabia, like the David Lean. I just had to do a thing, a documentary interview about David Lean. And it was such a beautiful thing to be able to discuss like how he made films and him in general. Because like, I would love to make films like that all the time. The budgets, you know, everything's become like, less budget, less time. But if you're Given, you know, the accurate resources to telescopey movie and you can actually like travel to those places with heavy cameras and wait for the sun. Wouldn't that be amazing?

[Sean Fennesee]

This is the lesson of this award season, though. I'm like, just empower these people to make these movies, which are expensive, but they will pay out if you. And people want them. Like they want the large format story. They want the epic experience. Like it is very much. I think where in general movie going is going. Like people want to have that experience where they're kind of overwhelmed by something. The same way a lean film will. I've kept you for a long time, Autumn.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I mean, it's like you just could talk for ages. This is now. I know.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's nice to hear that we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Oh, yeah, I do remember you asked that.

[Sean Fennesee]

Do you know what yours is? Could be old or new.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Okay, what did I see? Well, I'm not saying tv.

[Sean Fennesee]

Please don't say tv.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

It's not the last thing I actually watched. Okay.

[Sean Fennesee]

Some TV shows can be cinematic. True.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, I mean.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I mean, to be honest, Lawrence of Arabia.

[Sean Fennesee]

So what?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Because I. I was re. Watching it because I was. I went to go do the interview.

[Sean Fennesee]

What. What was the documentary you were sitting for?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Well, about David Lean. A documentary about David Lean.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Interesting.

[Sean Fennesee]

Who's making it? Are you allowed to say?

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Well, I shouldn't because I'm. Okay, yeah, it's not. It was just. They're making it.

[Sean Fennesee]

Did you go back and.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

But I'll send it to you.

[Sean Fennesee]

Please do. Did you look at a bunch of his films? Because he's another one too, who kind of like started more modestly in his early films and then kind of is building up to this period in the 50s and 60s when he has these huge canvases.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

I mean, I did a little like, you know, snippets of Zhivago and like, you know, dip my toe in a couple of things to refresh Great Expectations, stuff like that. But I think that was the last because I've been a little busy doing stuff. So I felt like I took some time to revisit that film. Otherwise, like, you know, sometimes tv, I'm watching planes and stuff, but we don't have to talk about that. But. But yeah, so I revisited that and I was just like, wow. You know, it's so. It does it every time to me. And I'm watching it on my tv, obviously, but like the scene, for instance, where o' Toole goes like, they go to the well and he has, you know, his. His partner with him. And then you see that one lone black figure come up in the middle center punched in frame. And they're both flanking the edges of the anamorphic frame or. No, actually that. It's not anamorphic. Is that. No, no, it's not. Actually, I think that's super Panavision. And they're there and it's like. It's just he comes up and then obviously he shoots him. But like that frame and I was like, this is. This is the frame that I have in my head all the time. Like, this is the format, this widescreen scopey format with the center punch guy and the beautiful frame.

[Sean Fennesee]

It's a great full circle. Autumn, thanks for doing the show.

[Autumn Derald Arkhipaw]

Yes, thank you so much. Yes.

[Sean Fennesee]

Okay. Thanks to Autumn. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Later this week, Scream 7 and after much demand, Nirvana, the band, the movie, which you have now seen.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I have seen. I think I'm like elbowing my way into this episode.

[Sean Fennesee]

Yes. Well, you're more than invited now that you've seen the film. And I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And I. I can't wait to hear the Matt Johnson conversation.

[Sean Fennesee]

He is an elite guest and it is an elite conversation. We will see you then. Foreign. Everybody knows White Monster, Zero Ultra, that's the OG it kicked off this whole Zero sugar energy drink thing. But Ultra is a whole lineup now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Sean Fennesee]

And they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the white cans, branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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