The Movie Business Freak-Out Mailbag and ‘Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery,’ With Rian Johnson!

Summary

The Big Picture – The Movie Business Freak-Out Mailbag & ‘Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery’ With Rian Johnson!

Podcast: The Big Picture (The Ringer)
Air Date: December 16, 2025
Hosts: Sean Fennessey & Amanda Dobbins
Guests: Rian Johnson

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sean and Amanda tackle the turbulence in the movie business, fueled by the news of Netflix’s impending Warner Bros. acquisition, reader anxieties, and a lightning-rod year for Hollywood. They dig through a robust mailbag—addressing Oscars politics, industry panic, movie star relevance, theatrical futures, and more—while paying tribute to the late Rob Reiner. In the second half, director Rian Johnson joins to discuss Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery, the faith and logic underpinning his third Benoit Blanc film, and the personal currents shaping his work, blending hilarious anecdotes with somber reflections about faith, storytelling, and the role of murder mysteries.

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In Memoriam: Rob Reiner (00:57–07:46)

• Sean and Amanda open with the tragic murder of Rob Reiner, describing it as “about the worst news you could possibly imagine” (01:23).
• They discuss Reiner’s immense influence on American studio filmmaking—with films like The Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, and This Is Spinal Tap being core to their own movie upbringing.
• Sean: "He represents the pinnacle of creativity that makes people happy... something about the experience of seeing the Princess Bride for the first time as a kid." (04:04)
• Amanda highlights his work as both a director and industry supporter, including Castle Rock’s legacy in launching Seinfeld: "He also co-founded Castle Rock, all the movies that he didn’t actually direct but that we love... helping shepherd younger filmmakers." (06:06)
• They encourage listeners to honor Reiner by revisiting his classics.

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Mailbag Mania: Freak-Outs, Oscar Debates, Streaming, and More (08:17–46:19)

Netflix's Warner Bros. Acquisition & Oscars Impact (08:24–12:38)

• Listener Q: Will negative reaction to Netflix acquiring Warner Bros. sway Oscar voting against Netflix films?
• Both hosts dismiss the notion, noting award voters care more about friendships, love for movies, and personal connections—rather than making political statements.
• Sean: "When it comes to voting for awards, people vote for their friends. They vote for movies that they love." (11:41)

Theatrical Business in 2026: Blockbuster Anxiety (19:26–24:39)

• Outlook on 2026’s blockbuster slate—Disney, Universal, Sony, Warner, Lionsgate loaded with franchise films: Toy Story, Star Wars, Avengers, Minions, Dune Messiah, The Odyssey (Nolan), and more.
• If these titles disappoint, panic is inevitable.
• Amanda: "If they don’t do well, everyone’s gonna start crying. Everyone’s gonna freak out." (21:19)

Timothée Chalamet's "Athlete Mentality" & Social Media Performance (16:02–19:24)

• Discussion about Chalamet’s cocky press-tour language ("in pursuit of greatness"), and whether it's off-putting or endearing.
• Amanda: "Talk your shit, Timmy. That’s what he’s doing." (17:27)
• Sean sees it as appealing to young people, not tactically Oscar-focused.

Letterboxd’s Streaming Initiative (28:05–31:00)

• Letterboxd launches a “video store” for streaming lesser-known indie films.
• Sean lauds the platform for giving exposure to films lacking distribution: "This is a movie that otherwise you would just not be able to see." (28:57)
• Amanda praises accessibility as the “one upside of the streaming age.”

Oscar Telecast Improvements & Industry Resistance (31:00–36:50)

• Listener asks why Oscar producers don’t listen to viewer advice (funnier presenters, more movie clips, fewer bland songs).
• Sean: "The Academy knows who we are and the producers... do not give [a damn]." (31:45)
• Amanda spots the main issue: “It's not losing viewers because it's bad. It's losing viewers because of YouTube.” (33:23)

Movie Stars: Relevance & Rationale (62:02–67:25)

• A listener asks why maintaining “movie star” status matters.
• Amanda: "Movies are dreams—they have to be manifested in human form. The best way is finding someone you feel your dreams through." (62:02)
• Both emphasize the irreplaceable human connection movie stars provide, contrasted with AI, IP franchises, or influencer culture.

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Rapid-Fire Mailbag Highlights (Selected)

• Great performances in mediocre films: Amanda nominates Joaquin Phoenix in Joker ("he's really good, and it’s a performance not just of presence but of movement, but that movie sucks." (59:05)); Sean shouts out Marion Cotillard in La Vie en Rose.
• IMAX re-releases: Both dream of more classics in premium formats—Sean: “The Good, the Bad and the Ugly... just Leone capturing the eyes on the biggest screen possible.” (67:52)
• Physical media must-haves: Essentials like Wizard of Oz (“before they put David Zaslav’s face in it”), Citizen Kane (Criterion 4K), Bogart classics, Kubrick, Nolan, etc. (50:04–52:22)
• Oscars & telecast quirks: The hosts advocate “leaning deeply into people who actually care about movies” (36:50), and joke about revealing real voting tallies (“they’re cowards”).
• Notable recurring bits: Charli XCX’s Letterboxd activity gets its own check-in; Chalamet jacket lust; film drafts and age-related self-deprecation; Anne Hathaway’s 2026 ubiquity.

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Wake Up Dead Man: Review & Analysis (70:43–86:24)

Premise & Cast (70:43)

• Third Knives Out mystery; Daniel Craig returns as Benoit Blanc; cast includes Josh O'Connor (Father Judd), Glenn Close, Josh Brolin, Jeremy Renner, Kerry Washington, and more.
• The setup: Benoit Blanc investigates a death within a religious community, entangling faith, secrets, and suspicion.

Thematic Depth, Comedic Touches & Critiques

• Amanda: “I do not care about Catholicism this much... but there’s a really delightful buddy comedy in the middle of this. I like these movies. I like Rian Johnson.” (71:27)
• Sean elaborates on the film’s bold attempt to fuse murder mystery mechanics with meditations on faith and logic:
  "This movie is very specifically interested in that [mystery of faith]... as a mystery, I think the movie is just okay... he’s trying to put big personal ideas into the movies." (74:15)
• Both agree the film’s strong suit is exploring belief and doubt through character dialogue, especially between Father Judd (a boxer-turned-priest) and Blanc.
• Amanda singles out the comedic and heartfelt moments, including an emotional phone confession scene involving Bridget Everett:
  "It's about faith... and is a really beautiful and beautifully acted scene between two people on a phone." (81:05)
• They find some secondary characters overly broad or miscast but value the lead dynamic; question if the faith themes may alienate some viewers.
• Sean: "The mystery stuff is kind of getting in the way of some of that stuff at times." (81:35)

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Interview: Rian Johnson on ‘Wake Up Dead Man’ (86:24–121:15)

Crafting a Personal Knives Out

• Johnson admits each film is a reaction to the one before, and that “I need to always feel like I’m a little frightened going into something.” (88:10)
• He identifies the deep parallel between murder mysteries and religious stories:
  "A murder mystery starts with an original sin—a murder—and the universe is thrown into moral chaos... the detective kind of descends from the heavens... restores the universe to moral right." (90:04)

Faith, Leaving Religion, and Narrative

• Candid about his upbringing as a “very personally Christian” evangelical who is now a non-believer; sees faith as a narrative framing for the world, a central human act:
  "Being alive is an active act of storytelling... narrative framing device... that’s just being alive." (95:01)
• Describes his drift away from faith not as a turn to “raw logic,” but needing a new lens for the world.

Bringing Personal Complexity to Genre Films

• On letting Benoit Blanc “sit out” the film’s first act: "Because the movie is about things that are a little bit more complicated... I didn’t want to shorthand them in a way that would feel reductive or didactic.” (98:20)
• Gained insight into priests by dining, drinking, and conversing with young priests in Denver, translating anecdotes about the ever-on, always-public life of a clergyman directly into the film.

On Cast, Ensembles, and Set Culture

• Johnson praises Josh O’Connor, discovered via Challengers and La Chimera, as “the full package.”
• Explains why famous actors take ensemble roles: "Every single one... the only reason... is because they want to be part of an ensemble and because they love actors." (106:30)
• Strives for “high school friends making movies” energy on his sets—fun, relaxed, collaborative.

On Making More Benoit Blanc Mysteries

• Plans to take a break from the series but expresses willingness to return:
  "As long as Daniel still enjoys making it... I would be thrilled to keep coming back to these."
• Considers every great murder mystery to be rooted in strong character and motivation, not twisty plotting alone.

Filmmaking, Faith, and the Business

• T Street (his production company) is focused on first-time, original voices making films with broad appeal.
• "You have to operate from a feeling of faith... If you make something that's truly interesting and truly good, it'll find its audience." (116:38)

Johnson’s Movie Recs (119:12)

• The Mastermind (“an all-timer”)
• Guillermo’s Frankenstein (very personal)
• Edgar Wright’s The Running Man (“a blast”)
• Pillion (“very funny, very sweet, very human... a beautiful relationship love story”)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "He represents the pinnacle of creativity that makes people happy." – Sean Fennessey on Rob Reiner (04:04)
• "Talk your shit, Timmy." – Amanda Dobbins on Chalamet’s Oscar bravado (17:27)
• "Movies are dreams—and they have to be manifested in human form." – Amanda Dobbins on ‘movie stars’ (62:02)
• "For me, being alive is an active act of storytelling." – Rian Johnson (95:01)
• "As long as Daniel still enjoys making it... and as long as we’re not turning the crank... I’d be thrilled to keep coming back to these." – Rian Johnson (109:33)

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Timestamps: Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 00:57–07:46 | Rob Reiner tribute | | 08:17–46:19 | Mailbag: Oscars, industry panic, streaming, movie stars | | 70:43–86:24 | Wake Up Dead Man (review/analysis) | | 86:24–121:15 | Rian Johnson interview: faith, craft, cast, business |

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Episode Tone

Conversational, sharp, sometimes irreverent but always anchored in deep love for and critical analysis of movies and moviemaking. Amanda’s asides (“Talk your shit, Timmy”), Sean’s nostalgia, plus Johnson’s warmth and sincerity all thread a tone that is passionate yet never precious.

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Recommended for:

• Movie lovers, industry watchers, and fans of the Knives Out series
• Listeners seeking insight on Hollywood’s current existential anxieties
• Anyone interested in the intersection of faith, narrative, and popular cinema
• Fans seeking new films to watch and thoughtful, funny banter about movie culture

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. I'm Sean Fennesee.

[B]

I'm Amanda Davis.

[A]

And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about a priest, a detective and a congregation who walk into a church. Today we will talk about Wake Up Dead man, the third Knives out mystery from Rian Johnson, which is now available on Netflix. Speaking of Netflix, the recent news about its impending acquisition of Warner Brothers has kicked up a lot of anxiety and dread for listeners of this show. So I thought we would open up the mailbag one more time in 2025, sort through our feelings. Your feelings. Thank you as always for such great questions from the listeners. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Rian Johnson to talk about Wake Up Dead man, his journey with the Benoit Blanc films, our experiences as people of lapsed faith, and a whole lot more. Ryan is a class act, super smart, always a great guest. Stick around for that. But first, we'll take a quick break.

[B]

This episode of the Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie, there's that last minute scramble to make it all come together, from gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.

[A]

Okay, we're back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And unfortunately, we are back with just about the worst news you could possibly imagine. Something absolutely awful happened in the world of movies in Los Angeles, Hollywood life itself, which is that Rob Reiner, beloved filmmaker, actor, philanthropist, activist, was tragically murdered along with his wife on Sunday night in their home in Brentwood. And I don't want to speak too much about the sort of details of this story, but I do want to honor his life and work because I think for us and for this show, he represents something tremendously meaningful. I would say he is an incredible meaning point of our formative taste and interest in movies. And we can talk about some of those movies here together. But you know your reaction to the news for Sunday night, I mean, it.

[B]

Is shocking and incredibly sad and I don't think there's much we can add to the news of it, except to give their family some privacy. But yeah, a couple years ago, maybe during the pandemic, we had another mailbag episode and we were asked about what directors can and you would take to a desert island. And I said, like, not really joking, Rob Reiner, because he had a run from the 80s through the the mid-90s you've left one crucial film off of this list.

[A]

Well, it was because there was something in between. But you're referring, of course, to the.

[B]

American President, the American in 1995, that, as you said, were formative in shaping certainly my movie tastes, but also, I think an idea of Hollywood just a little different than like cinema, you know, but these are the, this is the classic studio fair. Often adaptations of, you know, beloved novels or plays that were staged. I don't know if they were beloved and starring movie stars and screenwriters like you know, early in what would be like vaunted careers that we like, cherish and watched a thousand times and to me are what, like Hollywood, American studio movies of our, of our childhood and like really kind of like a second classic age of like again Hollywood, which is different than, you know, recreating like artistic cinema. But there is real art in making movies that are so well made and emotionally connected to the audience and memorable that, you know, everybody had a Rob Reiner film clip that they were posting last night.

[A]

Yeah, I think he. Forget about the high minded for a second. I think his art and his movies represent the pinnacle of creativity that makes people happy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know that there's something about the experience of seeing the Princess Bride for the first time as a kid or seeing A Few good men at 12 years old and feeling that electrifying sense of importance. You know, like I'm watching something adult here.

[B]

Sure, yeah. I'm being let into the big kid room.

[A]

Yes, exactly. I mean, obviously When Harry Met Sally and the way that that movie almost in real time reinvents a genre for a new generation. A Spinal Tap changing comedy forever. Genuinely true. I revisited this is Spinal Tap last night after the news. Cause that's the only thing I can think to do when something terrible like this happens. And you know, the first person that you see in this Spinal Tap is Rob Reiner. And he's introducing the premise of his movie as this kind of fake director who is going off to document this fake band. And it's just a very warm feeling. He always had a kind of like avuncular softness going all the way back to when he was not so avuncular as Meathead on All in the Family comes from this lineage of a Hollywood family. His father Carl, also a beloved first television actor and then comedy film director. They're twinned in so many ways. And you know, that stretch of time between 1984 through, you know, if you include the American president, roughly 1996 is probably the ideal for American studio Filmmaking, it is the pretty. And if you were a young person at this time, as we were, when we say formative, we mean it literally shaped our taste to discover the best pop fantasy movie of its era. The best Stephen King adaptation of its era in Misery, maybe the second best to some people. Stephen King adaptation in Stand By Me, a coming of age film.

[B]

Also the most important soundtrack to me growing up of all time, 100%.

[A]

Capping that huge runoff with A Few Good Men, which for us is a talisman. It's like a representation of kind of where our tastes meet.

[B]

And he was also like a statesman of Hollywood. And obviously When Harry Met Sally is like the big breakthrough for Nora Ephron in screenwriting. But then a few years later she writes in direct Sleepless in Seattle and Rob Reiner is there in a supporting role just because he was a person who was supporting other careers. He also did co found Castle Rock which all the movies that he didn't actually direct but that we love from this period of time come from Castle rock. In the mid-90s.

[A]

Yes. So it was an imprimatur of something grown up and straight ahead and entertaining and cool, you know. And he also had a big hand, I think that company had a big hand in helping shepherd younger filmmakers in that period in the early 90s. You know, just a short list of films that he participated in with Castle Rock, the Shawshank Redemption, Before Sunrise and Before Sunset, Lone Star, Zero Effect, the Last Days of Disco. And also in that period, of course he plays a huge role in getting Seinfeld greenlight and onto NBC. And you know, that's maybe the smartest decision in TV history. So his career is huge. He's obviously been a. He was a very outspoken Democrat and very vocal about politics and especially in the last 20 years or so and just kind of had a beloved reputation. You know, everybody really loved him. I saw, you know, he made a film with James Woods, Ghost of Mississippi in the mid-90s. And James woods could not be further away on the aisle in terms of political affiliation. And he was just like, I just love this person and I'll miss this person deeply. And this is really fucking tragic and messed up.

[B]

Yeah, it's awful.

[A]

And I really hope people honor him by watching and appreciating his movies this weekend forever.

[B]

Yes. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Like an action blockbuster. The holidays move quick, but with prime fast. Free delivery means those last minute gifts arrive right when you need them. Last year, while watching Singin in the Rain with my Son. I realized a pair of tap shoes would be a perfect Christmas gift and I had them under the tree for him on Christmas day. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. Last minute holiday magic. It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.

[A]

Okay, let's open the mailbag. I'm gonna read these mailbag questions. Okay, great. Are you excited?

[B]

You don't wanna trade go back and forth?

[A]

Yeah, let's do that.

[B]

I can listen. I have a movie flown voice too.

[A]

Yeah. You know, you read all the questions about physical media.

[B]

I do. I'd say I'm going more for like, you know, SAG Awards, which has been rebranded as the Actor Awards, like intro text or you know, like so and so made their debut at the age of 12 on the soap opera Days of Our Lives.

[A]

That's good. You've got a little bit of like mid December rasp too. So there's like some depth there. You know, you're getting closer and closer to Rachel Sennett. Okay, I'll read the first one. Deal. Allison writes, Given the generally negative response to Netflix, quote, winning the Warner Brothers bidding war, do you think it could impact the Oscars? Might academy members vote for non Netflix films as a way of showing their displeasure?

[B]

I, I don't think so. Both like broadly and also in the literal reality of what's going on in this Oscar race where it's like, I don't think Frankenstein was like, you know, closing in on number one until this sale came through. I just, I don't think I. They probably have three best picture nominees and I don't think any of them will already win best Picture. Now below the line, you know, K Pop Demon Hunters is really big in the animated film category. But, you know, the alternative is Zootopia 2, which was produced by Disney, which just gave a billion dollars to open, you know, sort of to open a. Yeah. So, you know, if we're out here punishing based on industry issues, I, there are no good choices.

[A]

That's well put.

[B]

And that's the other thing. It's, you know, Netflix, quote unquote, is winning right now, but this is going to be like a very long, protracted battle. And I do still think whether this is wise or not, within the industry, there are people who feel relief that it's Netflix rather than Paramount, no doubt, certainly just because of the amount of jobs that will be lost in if Paramount does succeed in its quasi hostile bid as, you know, as the town is now putting it, so. And I'll trust their reporting because I'm not. I don't yet have my MBA, but.

[A]

You know, finals are coming up.

[B]

2026. You know, I'm going to the Kim Kardashian Law School, but for my. My business degree. So I think that I. The people. People are so relieved that they maybe aren't in, like, a immediately punishing Netflix mode. Also, at some point, you know, Netflix has jobs and money for these people, and many other studios do not. Also, I mean, the thing is, is. The question is, is anyone mad enough at Warner Brothers to not vote for one battle after another? Because, you know, Warner Brothers made some mistakes, and it's not really the people who. Who make these films who made the.

[A]

Mistakes definitively, not the people who made the films.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

They had no influence whatsoever on the. I don't know.

[B]

I guess. I guess that's. I like. How much do you credit David Zaslav for being like, sure, let me give you 100.

[A]

He ultimately was responsible for allowing that film to be greenlit. Yeah, it just. It doesn't work this way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, there will be probably maybe a handful of people who think about this and they say, I really want to stick it to this company or that company. But when it comes to voting for awards, people vote for their friends. They vote for movies that they love. They vote for what they think would be cool to see up there. They don't vote strategically, economically, politically, in this way, overtly. And like you said, Netflix employs a lot of the people that vote for the Academy Awards. To me, it's not that cut and dried. If this were an award about who should be in control of the future of Hollywood, people would think differently about how to cast that ballot. But that's not what this is. This is just about what movies do you think are the best ones? So I don't really see it affecting it or who.

[B]

Like, who do you like hanging out with?

[A]

Yeah, that's a factor, too. That is a factor. I think that, you know, there's a capriciousness to a lot of awards voting for these reasons that they're made by humans, they're not made by political organizations. So I would not expect this. I don't think.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Anything else. I mean, you know, it feels like kind of a.

[B]

It's bad vibes. Well, bad vibes in town.

[A]

It is bad. It's, you know, it's been a terrible year in Los Angeles. Really a hard year. And it's been a really hard year for people who work in Hollywood. And let's just. Let's just celebrate one battle after another, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

While fighting one battle after another. Okay, what's the next question?

[B]

This comes from Emily. I'm traveling to see Family for Christmas and want to see Marty supreme as soon as I possibly can. My question is, will I be mortified or uncomfortable beyond recovery if I see this film with my dad? Emily, incredible question. I've been here, like, not with Marty supreme, but with many other films. I see you. I've only seen this film once, so you've seen it more recently. So you can.

[A]

Me and my dad went together.

[B]

You can probably like the most mortifying movies, but they. But it's like, what's comfortable and what's not comfortable with your dad, you know, I can't remember any sex scenes that are so explicit that you would want to, like, you know, fall under the table.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I can't remember anything akin to sitting next to my mother in Jerry Maguire when I was 12, which was. I'll never get over that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So in that sense, it's.

[A]

And may God bless Kelly Preston rest in peace. Truly.

[B]

There'S some gross things. It's stressful.

[A]

No. The answer is no. I think that that anxiety that people talk about, that Safdie. Josh Safdie can generate in his moviemaking is very present. And if that made you unpresent, I actually think it's, like, less illicit than the Julia Fox stuff in Uncut Gems. It has a real sexuality and sensuality. Morty Supreme. There's a lot of violence and kind of mania in the movie, but I don't know it, actually, because it's a period piece and because it's a sports movie, it's kind of a good movie to go see with your parents.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It feels like kind of a great Christmas release, I think.

[B]

So I was trying to guess if my father would like it. My dad, who has incredible movie takes around the Christmas season and all year long, actually. And there is a certain. I remember my dad didn't like Francis Ha. Which is a very different type of movie, except for that it is about a young person being an idiot, you know, and so if your dad doesn't have patience for young people being idiots.

[A]

Have you. Did you see that Timmy has been quoting my tweet?

[B]

No.

[A]

Like, routinely now in two different interviews. You keep saying that this is a movie about being an idiot in your 20s.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Which is what I said about the movie. And it is I mean, it is definitely a true thing about the film, but somebody must have read him that tweet.

[B]

I hope so. Can that person also read him my mailing address for a jacket size? A medium blue? No, I haven't gotten one yet. Like, three. Three Kardashian Jenners have them. And that was when I knew that I was not going to get one. But I'm still. If anyone, if I. I will give out my address. I would love a jacket.

[A]

Okay. More mari supreme coming to this show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In eight days.

[B]

Anyway, I think it'll be fun. Merry Christmas, Emily.

[A]

Okay, next question.

[B]

And Emily's dad, you think.

[A]

You think he's a listener?

[B]

Well, she could tell.

[A]

How old do you think Emily is? And how old, like, do you think is. Is it possible Emily's dad is 97? I wouldn't go to. I wouldn't take a 97 year old.

[B]

Is it possible that Emily's dad is our age? Which is worse?

[A]

Dude. Okay, going forward, all mailbag question writers, please include your age. Thank you. All right, Jane asks. I'm seeing a lot of people mad about the athlete mentality that Timothee Chalamet has had in interviews lately where he talks about how he has been giving great performances lately. Personally, I think it's cool, but I'm wondering what your opinion is on this and if it will hurt or help his Oscar chances. What do you think?

[B]

I also think it's rad. Uh, he started this last year. Was it the. The SAG Awards rebranded as the I'm an Actor Awards?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Um, I know you're not supposed to say this, but I'm in pursuit of greatness. Yeah.

[B]

And. And he listed some people, and it was rad. And it was. And it maybe played a little bit better because it was the first time and because he was not considered the favorite at that point.

[A]

And. And he did not win the Oscars.

[B]

And he did not win the. So you were just kind of like, oh, look at this guy shooting his shot. I would say that the tenor of this campaign has been like, a little different and very much in keeping with the character of Marty Supreme.

[A]

And also it's kind of cosplaying as the. The hero of his new movie right now, sort of.

[B]

And he is also, like, in addition to being. I. I guess it's athlete mentality, but he's just really a student of the Internet. Like, Timmy is like. Is a premier poster.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And talk your shit, Timmy. That's what he's doing.

[B]

He has grown up watching, like, you Know everything from like Kanye press tours to all of the athlete interviews. Like, this is a playbook that is recognizable that his imprinted on him.

[A]

New York, man, he's from New York.

[B]

We really, we like it. I assume that there will be older people who are irritated by it, but I'm not sure that they were going to vote for the Marty supreme performance anyway.

[A]

I'm not sure. I mean, Joanna and I, and you spoke about this last Friday and we, you know, she was saying she doesn't think he wants to win. I just think he's, he's promoting the movie and I think he's trying to appeal to young people because this is, even though it's a period piece, it's really a movie for young people. Like, it's really fast paced. It's about a 20something guy trying to achieve and realizing kind of the toll and the cost of that. And it's just very relatable if you are anywhere from 15 to 50, I would say so I think he's mostly worried about that and not as worried about the Oscar stuff. And we'll see if he kind of shifts the tack because he's going to be nominated, obviously. I do think older people obviously find this a little bit off putting, but I also think you're right that he has located something very specific about his generation. And when he gave the SAG speech, he literally invoked Michael Phelps and Michael Jordan. You know, he is, he wants to be. He just went on a professional wrestler's podcast. He went on college game day. I mean, the athlete mentality.

[B]

I loved the game day.

[A]

Yeah, that was great. And what Jane is identifying is true that he is pursuing this in a different way. He's acting more like maybe the way Terrell Owens would talk as a wide receiver than the way you would expect someone like Daniel Day Lewis, another name he invoked, would talk during a press campaign. But I mean, who cares? Like if the movies are good, the movies are good.

[B]

I'm enjoying the show, you know, like I, I really, it's, yeah, it's great. But also like he is, he's speaking to my demo too, and I appreciate the performance and it's fun.

[A]

Jacket buyers.

[B]

I want a jacket, you know, so once again, just let Timmy know, everybody.

[A]

Okay, what's the next one?

[B]

What do you think the performance of the 2026 film slate, which is full of should be blockbusters, will mean for the health of the theatrical business come this time next year? Do you think there will be significantly more panic than there is now? If some of these titles don't perform the way they're expected to. Well, I think there will be panic. I don't think everyone's gonna be like, yeah, we did it.

[A]

You know, it's partly about what it means for these movies to succeed. So, like, I've listed a bunch of them here for us. We're gonna do the most anticipated movies of the year first thing we get back in January. But they're. And I wouldn't say most of these movies are gonna end up on that list, so I don't have a problem listing them. It's a huge, huge year for Disney next year. Disney has several movies that I don't know if need is the right word, but should perform, including a new Toy Story movie, Live Action Moana, the first new Star wars movie in seven years, which is the Mandalorian and Grogu. They've got devil wears Prada 2. They've got. What else? They've got Avengers, Doomsday at the end of the year. So, like, that slate of movies in a different time, those could all be billion dollar movies. Except for Devilverse. Prada too, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For Universal, they have a new Minions movie. They have Mega Minions. Wow. Mega Minions. Yeah. Wait, what other Universal movies are on this list? Is that it? I mean, you know, I'm listing basically franchise films. There's like, 12 franchise films that are expected to make a lot of money. Included among them is, like, the Super Mario Galaxy movie, that's universal. Shrek 5, which I know you're pumped for. Jumanji 3, that's a Sony movie. Then you've got Dune Messiah, which is Warner's. You've got the Hunger Games film, that's Lionsgate. So all those movies kind of have to do well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if they don't do well, then.

[B]

Everyone'S gonna start crying.

[A]

Everyone's gonna freak out. Spider man movie, you know, that's Sony. And then there's like, four other films that are really interesting for what we want to talk about.

[B]

So that's a great ratio.

[A]

It's not good. It's 12 to 4. The four films are the Odyssey, the new Chris Nolan movie. Disclosure, the new Steven Spielberg movie that we talked about last week.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Emerald Fennels, Wuthering Heights.

[B]

We're going to have an incredible time.

[A]

I look forward to it. God, that standee has been up in the movie theaters for months. And then Project Hail Mary, the Ryan Gosling space drama adaptation.

[B]

So excited.

[A]

So I cite those four films because they are a little bit closer to I think what kind of. We're hoping things like eventually get dragged to. Even if the business is dying and Warner Brothers is going to Netflix. It's like, how do we preserve this? How do we preserve original films or adaptations of novels that are fur not 13 year olds that have a lot of star power made from at least interesting filmmakers. Filmmakers with interesting track records. And I think there's a much better chance that the Odyssey is a huge hit than I don't know, even something like Toy Story 5, which historically has been bulletproof. But can we guarantee that? Probably can guarantee it. But the Odyssey is a foolproof hit.

[B]

Which is an incredible thing to say about like a contemporary adapt. Not a contemporary, like a contemporary to the time written adaptation of Homer's epic poem.

[A]

Do you think we should do like a Greek and Roman myths adaptation episode?

[B]

Yeah, that would be fun.

[A]

Okay. Because you have a lot of grounding in that way.

[B]

Well, you know, in some ways the everything. All of western storytelling is grounded on those.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Hamnet would be eligible because they do the Orpheus and you, you know that's true.

[A]

So you want to spend more time talking about Hamnet in that episode.

[B]

And that was one of my favorite actually. When he tells the story. It's nice. But then you have to look at the tree again.

[A]

Okay. Of all of these franchise movies, Hamnet.

[B]

Is the new the Giving Tree. Incredible take by me.

[A]

Is it out of all these franchise movies, is there one that you're really looking forward to besides Devil Wears Prada too?

[B]

Well, I'll take Nox to see Minions three.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I think that'll be funny.

[A]

Yeah, Mega Minions.

[B]

Listen, I've liked Dune 1 and 2.

[A]

Dune Messiah. That's. Will it be called Dune Messiah or Dune 3? D u n 3. That would be good. I. I mean, look, I'm going to probably like half freak out about whatever happens, right? Yeah, it's not. Next year is not going to be like everything's fixed.

[B]

Yeah, like I said, like it's not. We didn't invite, you know, we didn't invent like a time machine. It's not. It's not going to be great again. And I think that we typically receive all of this industry news with hand wrinking and I mean I'm at collectively.

[A]

Speak for yourself. You know, I feel that I've been quite measured in 2025.

[B]

Yeah, you've been great.

[A]

Thank you. EJ writes.

[B]

Isn't it my turn? No, it's your turn. You're right. Sorry. I was just excited to answer this.

[A]

Okay, well, you'll be able to. EJ writes in all the Ellison drama of this year. I keep thinking about where Megan Ellison is and the heater that Annapurna was on about a decade ago. Obviously we don't know the family dynamics and there was a Hollywood Reporter story last year about the rough patch that she hit. But do you think there's a world where she takes a role at Paramount and that someone with good taste over there could actually be an unexpected outcome of this?

[B]

You know, ej, that's what we call thinking positively and, or delusionally. I mean, I, I don't know any of the Ellison's either. I don't think I've even met. I'd like. I've never been like in a room with Megan Ellison.

[A]

I haven't either. I've. I know a lot of people that worked in Annapurna. Sure. Yeah.

[B]

I know some as well. And definitely has great taste. The vibes that I'm getting from the reporting are that succession was not about the Murdochs. It's actually about this family. And so she doesn't want. I don't know, I. I don't think there's love lost. I don't, I. If she were going to be involved.

[A]

She have won succession.

[B]

No, she didn't. Her lame husband did.

[A]

Well, but. Yeah, but then they, you know.

[B]

Yeah, I guess.

[A]

So if anyone won, she won from that, from those from that family.

[B]

Okay, so then let's game it out. So you think Larry's just waiting and he's letting go? No, I don't. I think that if she were going to be involved, if they had that kind of relationship where they valued her input or her time at Annapurna like that she would already be in the mix.

[A]

Yeah, Annapurna was a comet. And I genuinely credit that this period of movies with getting me to where I am with covering movies because I was working at Grantland basically right when this movie company launched and she was funding exactly what I wanted. Like let's just go quickly through the list of movies that she made in that time. Lawless was her first movie, which is ultimately not a super successful Tom Hardy period western film. But you gotta try. It's a good swing. And then she goes on this run of the master, Killing them Softly, Zero Dark Thirty, Spring breakers, the Grandmaster, her American Hustle, Foxcatcher, and she makes kind of loses her way a little bit. Yeah, Joy, Everybody wants one is in there.

[B]

American Hustle and Foxcatcher are on. Kind of like we're, we're trying this. We're still trying.

[A]

They represent the right instincts. American Hustle is the best picture nominee. You know, she's the only woman who's been nominated for best picture twice in the same category in, in the best picture category for her and American Hustle. I mean, that period of time, that three or four year period, pretty crazy in terms of what she accomplished. And, you know, she made some good. Everybody wants them. 20th century women, you know, phantom thread. Like she helped participate in and fund all these movies. Beale street could talk like she. It was a net positive. It was a very clearly a very chaotic company. And the way it was run was like a lot of like, meant to be rule breaking and empower auteurs and let artists make, you know, execute their visions in the way that they want to. And that was not sound as an economic strategy. But I agree with you. I don't get the impression that Larry Ellison is kind of like quietly lining her up behind David Ellison and she will emerge and say, I am the new queen of Hollywood. That's not really gonna happen. It would be nice if she had a division within Paramount just because we know that she's really into like, you know, Spike Jonze movies and same Richard Linklater movies. And, you know, so I. I don't know. It's. It's wishful thinking. We could be wrong, but we could be wrong. Okay, what's next?

[B]

Hmm. From dj Letterboxd has just started their own video rental store on the app for lesser known, smaller released films. I was wondering what you guys think of that idea. That's so nice to include me. And if you have seen any of the films they have on there so far, what would you recommend?

[A]

I'm so glad this was asked because I couldn't find an organic way to talk about this. But this is something that launched last week on letterboxd that have turned themselves into what they're calling a video store, but is really more of a streaming service. And the great thing about what they're doing is that most of the films that they're identifying are films with no distribution. So I've watched one movie on the app so far. It's called It Ends. It premiered at the south by Southwest Film Festival. It's kind of an existential, very grounded sci fi drama about four friends in a car who are on a road trip or who are actually just going out to get some food and they start driving and they find themselves on an endless road and the road only runs in two directions and all they can do is drive. And if they get out of the car, crazy things start to happen. Really interesting, promising feature debut kind of a film. This is like a net positive. This is a movie that otherwise you would just not be able to see because who knows if anybody would ever buy this movie. There are a handful of other movies that are like this. They also are going to clearly kind of refresh and redistribute some older films, probably more foreign language films. But I think this is fantastic. And there was a question in here originally, at least about kind of like the future of independent cinema. I don't know if it's necessarily rosy, but this is like a nice opportunity for filmmakers who are trying to get their films more widely seen in terms of the ease of use on the platform. Like, I think they're still working it out, but I thought it was relatively clean. Like, if you, you can just do it on your laptop. If you just open up letterbox, it's very easy to just input your. Your pay info and it'll start streaming for you, I think used via Vimeo technology. But if you put letterboxd on your set top box like on your Roku or on your Apple tv, it works really well. And it was just like renting a movie from any other streaming video rental store. So I thought this was great. Um, I liked it ends. I know Chris liked CR Liked it Ends. He watched it this weekend too.

[B]

And.

[A]

Yeah, I mean.

[B]

Oh, yeah, the rare. He both shared the letterbox thing and then like he wrote a comment being like, this is amazing. Yeah. Which like, Chris never does on Instagram. So that caught my attention.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a very cool film that otherwise wouldn't get to be seen. So I love it. I mean, if they start distributing Avengers, Doomsday, I don't think that's great. I don't think that's really useful.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But as everyone knows, I think letterboxd is doing great things for film fandom. So it's a nice thing. It can be a way to show up.

[B]

And I think making films available to people is like the one upside of the streaming age. And this is like a cool way to capitalize on that. It's not doom day. It's things that otherwise would not be seen and making it easier for a wider group of people. I mean, it's all like. It's all we have. It's all we can do with this stuff.

[A]

I know.

[B]

So good on them.

[A]

Yeah. It's a droplet in the ocean, but it's a Tasty droplet. All right, I'm going to read this one. This is fun for you. Aidan writes, it's a recurring point on the show that the Oscars telecast sucks and loses viewers because of its poor quality and general bloat. Not sure about that. I agree with the ideas you bring up around potential improvements. Fewer live song performances, actual funny, famous people for award presentations, more clips, etc. I'm curious why you think the Oscars producers don't follow that advice and ram their heads into the wall with the same shit year after year. Who's making these decisions? Why? I think every question should just end with why.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Take it away.

[B]

Okay, so why the Oscar producers don't follow our advice because they don't know who we are.

[A]

That's correct. Well, the Academy knows who we are and the producers of the show do not give.

[B]

Well, I was going to say, if any of the producers do know who we are, they hate us. So you know what? The exception of Steven Soderbergh, who was an Oscar producer one year and has spoken to you several times. So he knows who you are and I don't think he hates you.

[A]

As far as I can tell. Steven and I are on good terms and I of course believe he is an American hero.

[B]

As do I.

[A]

I quibble a little bit with the characterization in the question because one, we were pretty positive about the last telecast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And one of the reasons why is even if they weren't distinctly listening to us, I did feel that the shift to Conan o' Brien gave the show a new energy. Now Conan o' Brien is coming back as the host this year, so maybe we won't have that kind of first time, first date excitement around the way that he presented on the show. But I thought last year's show was pretty good.

[B]

What we liked about it, he did some bits in the Billy Crystal 90s fame. I mean, we, like everyone else, are just trying to get the Oscars back to the Oscars of our youth. Because that's what people do is you just try to recreate things from your childhood when they were quote, unquote, better, though they really weren't, because there are plenty of Oscars telecasts from the 80s and 90s available on YouTube and you will not believe what those people got up to. But also in the 80s and 90s they were more watched. So some of it is. I agree with you. It's not losing viewers because it's bad. It's losing viewers because of YouTube.

[A]

And yeah, model culture is gone. Movies don't matter as much.

[B]

Live TV ratings except for the NFL just kind of aren't where they are. You and I have different opinions about what makes a good telecast. We do you really like more clips? I get tired of montages after a while. Do you like the live, the musical performances?

[A]

I mean, I think in some occasions I thought it was wise to open with Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo last year. That was smart. That was a way to kick, you know, I don't love that movie, as you know, but that was a smart way to draw in crowds and they're great performers and so that made sense.

[B]

And you know, the Bradley Cooper, Lady Gaga, like, almost make out like sometimes those are moments.

[A]

Yeah, I'm just Ken from by Ryan Gosling. That was a great moment. Like, you know, there are really, there can be really good examples of live performances. The thing that you don't want is that feeling of perfunctory, like all five of the nominees have to perform today. Even though three of the five nominees are not songs you've ever heard in your entire life. That doesn't really. That hurts the show, in my opinion.

[B]

What we want are like the memorable moments and not just because we know that then they'll go viral on the Internet and that will make people care about movies, but because that's what makes a good TV show. We want them to. We want the broadcast to be good and not bad.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

We have some understanding of what makes that, which is people who are experienced at standing in front of a microphone, being engaging, either hosting or presenting awards. A little more thought put into what's going to be a dead moment versus, like what people will be excited to see, which is both the live song performances or the 45th montage about, I don't know, flying in movies or whatever. And I say that as someone who spends a lot of time watching montages of flying movies.

[A]

I just love when you, when you're getting a plane and there's a camera on the plane and they're showing you the world from the vantage of the plane.

[B]

We love it too, in my home and we watch it a lot.

[A]

But, you know, it's awesome. The great Waldo Pepper when it's election.

[B]

Impossible PM and we want to know who's going to win best Picture. And then they also won't take our fun advice. Like they won't reveal the, you know, the voting counts, which I understand why, but that would be cool.

[A]

Yeah, but they're cowards, right?

[B]

They. I still, I still think the countdown where one is Eliminated every three years.

[A]

My best idea of all time.

[B]

It's really good.

[A]

It's literally my best idea of all time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I think the people making these decisions are people who are trying to wrap their heads around a new reality of television. Watching a period in which the Academy Awards were frequently the second or third most watched show in America in any given year, behind the Super Bowl. And that's just. It'll still be close, but that number is halved if not a thirded in 10 years time. That's fine. We spent years. I spent years trying to problem solve this, trying to not freak out about the best way to nominate the right movies to get attention on the show. It's just different now. It goes along with every other thing that we've been talking about over the last 18 months with the whole movie business in general. It's actually just better now fully, in my opinion, to just celebrate movies. That. That should be the entire purpose of the show. Movies, movie culture. You know, that idea that many people have shared over the years, which is like, this should be the biggest showcase for movie trailers. That is pot. It should be like the Avengers Doomsday trailer is premiering in the second hour of the Oscars telecast.

[B]

Like on air.

[A]

More people would watch. Yeah, on air.

[B]

During the commercial. You want them?

[A]

No, no, during the commercials.

[B]

During the commercials, I was going to say let's not, but they should treat.

[A]

It like the super bowl where it's like that the ad rate for that show will matter more and the ratings will go up. If you give people more about movies in this time, like lean deeply into the people who actually care about this stuff, you know, whether or not they'll do that, that's over our heads. Okay, what's. What's the next question?

[B]

This is from Georgia. My question for the Mailbag. Which actor, actress or director are you buying stock for in 2026? Whose stock are you selling?

[A]

I made a list of some filmmakers.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

These are early buys.

[B]

You took mine.

[A]

You can have the second one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Three horror movie directors that I'm gonna put on people's radars. I haven't seen their films, but I'm very intrigued. Kane Parsons actually spoke about this with Bill Simmons and Van Lathan on Bill's show. But he made a movie called the Backrooms. He is in his early 20s. He was a YouTube kind of creepypasta video maker. And he made a real film with a real cast, adult actors, well known stars. And I've heard the movie's really good. So I'm excited about that. It's an A24 movie. Curry Barker debuted his movie Obsession at Toronto, and it got acquired by Focus and it's coming out this spring. I've also heard that movie is really good. I haven't seen it. And then Sebastian Vanicek is making the new Evil Dead movie called Evil Dead Burn. He made a movie that we did talk about on the show called Infested a couple of years ago. A spider horror movie that is also really good for the horror fans on this show. Three names to watch. Three younger filmmakers. Okay. Yours is a little bit less under the radar.

[B]

Well, it's burgeoning Charli xcx. It's not under the radar in the music, but in the film space, you're buying stock. Yes. The Wuthering Heights soundtrack, The moment. Her letterbox. Also her substack, which, like, is a little bit about films, but, you know, Charlie is Charlie's blogging and.

[A]

Yeah, What'd you think of that?

[B]

I thought it was great.

[C]

She's.

[B]

She's very talented. I'm a huge fan.

[A]

Should we do a check in on her letterboxd?

[B]

Yeah. What has she been watching?

[A]

Where did we leave off?

[B]

I think you read all of November because it was. That was the Wicked for Good episode.

[A]

I don't think I got through the entire month. Okay, you want to just spend some time on December?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Charlie XCX letterbox check in December 1st. Zootopia 2. She left a heart. December 6th. Five day gap. Gotta bump those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers, Charlie. The first film she watched was Last Days, which is Gus Van Zant's sort of shaded portrait of the last days of Kurt Cobain's life starring Michael Pitt. No heart, no rating.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

December 6th. She watched another film.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The Weekend Away, a film I've not seen stars Leighton Meester.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Here, I'm going to read you the log line of the film. When her best friend vanishes during a girls trip to Croatia, Beth races to figure out what happened. But each clue yields another unsettling deception.

[B]

Ooh, I would watch that. Is it filmed in Croatia?

[A]

Unclear.

[B]

Okay, that would make a difference.

[A]

December 7th. She left a review of the film that she watched. The film is Before Sunrise. Okay, here's the review. Omg, this chemistry. Okay, this feels like a first time watching.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say is this the first time? Well, welcome, Charlie.

[A]

Yes. Five stars.

[B]

Great.

[A]

December 10th.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Pillion movie. I love.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Charlie Lighten's BDSM gay rom com drama starring Alexander Skarsgrd and Harry Melling. Actually the movie that our guest talked a bit about later in this episode. December 11th, the voice of Hindra Job which was at the Venice Film Festival which is incredibly tragic and sad movie. Five stars and a heart. December 13th. Wake up dead man.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No notes. December 13th, Predator, Badlands.

[C]

Sick.

[A]

We'd like to see that. Okay, yeah, I'm not seeing a heart or five stars or I love that episode with Sean and cr. I'm not seeing that here anywhere.

[B]

It's expensive to have opinions. Okay. Charlie knows that.

[A]

She does. December 14th, year of the Fox. Another film I haven't seen and haven't heard of. 2023. A 17 year old Ivy who was adopted as an infant into a wealthy and notable Aspen family is navigating the fallout of her parents bitter divorce.

[B]

Aspen, Colorado. I can't say like can you be a notable Aspen family? Is anyone living in Aspen long enough? You know, are there enough year long residents of Aspen to ha to be notable?

[A]

I simply don't know the answer to that.

[B]

I don't either.

[A]

December 14th.

[B]

Culture. Not for me.

[A]

Just yesterday.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Charli XCX watched Park Chan Wook's no Other Choice.

[B]

Five stars.

[A]

Heart.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Just a heart.

[B]

Just a heart. Okay.

[A]

Anyway, this has been Charlie XCX watches movies and we talk about them. Okay, back to people we're shouting out. So Christopher Borgli is the director of the drama. We saw a teaser for the drama, the new film starring Zendaya and Robert Pattinson about a couple who. Everything is perfect. They're cool, they have hip hop, you know, stylish clothing, they're beautiful. They live in a cool New York apartment. And then something's wrong. What's wrong? We don't know what's wrong.

[B]

I don't want to find out.

[A]

There's a big twist. Don't spoil the twist.

[B]

I won't.

[A]

I. This there. This movie is in the materialist slot from last year for a 24.

[B]

Right? Well, we had a nice time and everyone was very normal about it.

[A]

One of the best. Easily one of my favorite episodes of the year that we've done and a fun movie going experience for a movie that I think is deeply flawed.

[B]

Still thinking about the Shrek meme where he just sinks down in the cake. That's so good.

[A]

That was good. That was good. Can we talk about Anne Hathaway?

[B]

Yeah, it's her time. This is. I'm nervous.

[A]

Well, this is risky.

[B]

She's got six films together and it's not. She doesn't Schedule them.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

It's not her fault, you know, it's not her fault. But exposure for anyone at this level is tough to maintain, as we're seeing from Timothee Chalamet right now. And that's just one big film.

[A]

Individually, in different ways, I have interest in all six films. The films that she's going to be in. The Odyssey.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In which she plays. What's Odysseus's wife's name?

[B]

Penelope.

[A]

Penelope. Thank you. The Devil Wears Prada, too.

[B]

Do you remember her character's name in that?

[A]

Annie.

[B]

Andy. Andy Sax. But Miranda calls her Andrea.

[A]

Is that actually her name or does she invent that for her?

[B]

I don't actually know because the first time she says Andrea and she says Andy. Everybody calls me Andy. But then how do you feel like.

[A]

Andy for a girl?

[B]

It's cute.

[A]

A N, D, I or a N, D, Y?

[B]

I have always.

[A]

A N, D, I, E. I've always.

[B]

Spelled it in my head. A N, D, I, e. Like Andie McDowell, but I guess I haven't seen it written out. They don't show her bylines.

[A]

What about a Y, N, Y, D?

[B]

That seems complicated.

[A]

Okay, next. Verity, which is the forthcoming Colleen Hoover adaptation with Anne Hathaway and Dakota Johnson.

[B]

You will not see this without me. Like we will. You will not. I will not go alone.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This is like a major Kim Crawford night. And I think we'll have an incredible time.

[A]

I want to see this movie inside of a bar. That's the only way I think I'll be able to enjoy it. Then David Lowry's Mother Mary, long awaited two hander, apparently that the streets have been waiting for. We got a trailer for that movie. Also speaking of. Charli XCX wrote the songs for Mother Mary. One more Charlie thing. Flower Vale Street. David Robert Mitchell's follow up to under the Silver Lake, which has been long delayed. From Warner Brothers. Have some concerns. I was gonna say very excited about it, but have some concerns. And then I didn't realize this, but I just read last night that she's also appearing in a new film by Ron Howard called Alone at Dawn. That's just a robust year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you holding your Anne Hathaway stock? Selling, buying, holding, holding. What about the rock making Jumanji 3? Are you selling that?

[B]

We checked Jumanji out of the library. The book the other day or. You know, I tried to. I was curious whether it would take. Didn't take. So.

[A]

Right. Just with your child.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Not with you. Alone. Okay.

[B]

What if I was Just sitting there.

[A]

It's an image.

[B]

Yeah. Who knows what happens after bedtime. So what else is he gonna do? It does feel like a bit of a retreat.

[A]

It does.

[B]

And is live action Moana also next year it is. Okay, so you know, you gotta do what you gotta do. You know, we did.

[A]

What do we have to do? 35 over 35 next year. Is that where it is? On the cycle and pinging back and forth. Did we do 35 under 35 this year? I can't remember.

[B]

You do it every 18 months.

[A]

Is that true?

[B]

That's what you told me last time. Okay, so it was. I remember that we did it for challengers. And that was April.

[A]

So I've got seven months till the 44 year old cliff. You know, when I fall off.

[B]

I can't talk about that piece. I'm sorry, just.

[A]

Well, but I have.

[B]

Listen, it is a thing that existed predates that piece. There's science, but it's fine. And I have some thoughts for you. You're going to be fine.

[A]

I'm gonna be fine.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'm happy to hear that.

[B]

We're gonna, we're gonna work on your mobility. We're gonna work on your, you know, vitamins and vitamins. I think that you could use an infusion or two. Not like the IV drip. I, I'm. I'm not doing that.

[A]

It's a really a classic thing where if I just eat an orange, I just feel a hundred times better.

[B]

I know that, Sean.

[A]

You know? Just a hundred times better.

[B]

I am familiar enough with your diet at this point. In. In.

[A]

I think I actually have like a very normal body. I'm just gonna say that out loud. I'm a normal man with a normal body and if I treat it as such, I'll be fine.

[B]

I do, I think that we can, as you approach the 44 cliff, we can just like uptake, you know, up the care just a little bit.

[A]

Here's what they don't know about me. I'm wearing a parachute. Doesn't matter. Send me off that cliff, I'll be flying gracefully. Okay, next question. Yes. Yes. No, this is. I wanted you to ask me the next one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Can I ask this one? Yes, go ahead. Okay, I'll ask you Emma's question. You read me Jeff's Emma ask my question is which movie on your 25 for 25 was hardest to pick. Come to an agreement on whether that that be to include it on the list or its placement on the list.

[B]

Well, Frances ha has been a Recurring source of frustration and disagreement for us. I think I personally, I, you know, I still don't feel good about the Christopher Nolan pick. We went all different ways on that and we did what we had to do, but I would have liked to come to a better resolution.

[A]

I think we actually had a very friendly and warm and actually encouraging for our pod relationship experience doing the 25, where you put a rough draft together after we did the cut down. And then I kind of tweaked it a little bit, but didn't tweak it that much, not dramatically. So that part of it was good, I think, in.

[B]

And even, I mean, we haven't listened to this election episode, but that was like, kind of nerdy fun for us. It was not contentious as people might imagine it.

[A]

I think that for me personally, there are a couple of movies that are just not Amanda. Movies that undoubtedly would have been on my list, like Almost Famous in Eternal, Sunshine of the Spotless Mind just would have been on my list.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're not.

[A]

They're not on the list.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there were a couple that were like. But not a lot. Not a lot where I was like, this is. I don't want to fight with you, but I would fight with you about it, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it is also hard to fight with me. You made like a. You made a last minute offer about.

[A]

I did.

[B]

And I was just like, absolutely not. Like, I wasn't even gonna interview.

[A]

Not the coolest negotiator. I would say.

[B]

I don't negotiate. Yeah, like, that's.

[A]

It's.

[B]

You don't negotiate with terrorists? I don't negotiate.

[A]

You know who says that? Yeah, terrorists. I just.

[B]

It was a terrible offer and I wasn't gonna take it. If you'd made a good offer, I would have said yes. Well, there are, There are a few movies where I'm like, I can't believe that this isn't on the list.

[A]

I agree. Tar is also a new movie. You know, it just wasn't a place for it.

[B]

But like, I, I would say three or four times during this year, I've texted you being like, okay, but what about Tar?

[A]

Yeah, I. I know it was tough. It was tough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a tough. It's a really tough one. Tar and Almost Famous are very hard for me to not.

[C]

For those.

[A]

To not be on the list because of how much I like them. Even though I need more time with Tar is something I'll say about tar.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'd like to see it a Couple.

[B]

More times wearing my tar blazer. I didn't even realize.

[A]

And giving tar energy.

[B]

Well.

[A]

Okay, you read the next one.

[B]

Okay. Oh, boy. Given the potential acquisition and the threat to physical media. This is from Jeff. What are the Warner library, including one's license to criterion 4Ks we should be asking for this Christmas? Let me just say that you put a list together.

[A]

Haphazardly.

[B]

No, no, no, no, it's fine. It's just like if you're collecting 4Ks, you should have these. Just you. These should be on your list if you don't have them.

[A]

Well, I generally agree with that, but I think it's worth locating for people who maybe aren't thinking about. A lot of people have clearly started collecting in the last few years, like I. And hopefully in part because they're listening to the show, but just in general. There have been like 15 trend pieces in newspapers and magazines and websites over the last few years that like something is kicking up, obviously.

[B]

Well, I mean, you know, trend pieces. It's that you gave them an idea, but that's okay.

[A]

That may be true. I think there's just like some existential dread stuff with I want to own my stuff. So this is very basic. This is like starter kit to me for the Warner Brothers and Warner license stuff. Wizard of Oz, before they put David.

[B]

Zaslav's face in it.

[A]

Yes. As they did in the sphere, the AI induced sphere version. Wizard of Oz, there's a beautiful steelbook 4K. Buy it, it's a must. Citizen Kane from the Criterion Collection. It's a must. Buy it. The Bogart classics, they've been collected on Blu Ray, but not on 4K. Slowly, over time, they're being added on 4K. Casablanca is available on 4K. To have and have not, I believe, is not. Treasure of the Sierra Madre, I do not believe is on 4k yet. The big Sleep, the Maltese Falcon is available on 4K. I may have gotten a couple of those wrong, but you know, Bogart made a great many movies in the 30s and 40s that are all timers. But the best known ones, I think because they were made by Warner Brothers and so they have been a legacy studio that has been able to continuously promote those films. Are these movies two recent criterion 4Ks of Stanley Kubrick movies? Barry Lyndon and Eyes Wide Shut. The Eyes Wide Shut Criterion is anybody who's serious about owning movies should buy it today. Blade Runner, Mean Streets, all the Christopher Nolan films up to Oppenheimer and I guess not Memento, but almost all those films are Warners. The Tim Burton Batman. Like, we could go on and on. There's a, there's a, you know, all the Clint Eastwood movies. Dirty Harry just had a 4k outlaw. Josie Wales just had a 4k. Like a bunch of these movies are all available now. I'm sure there's like roughly 500 more that people should hunt down, but it's worth spending some time acquiring those. A nice question from Jeff.

[B]

Congratulations, Jeff. I hope you get what you want for Christmas.

[A]

Okay. Kyle asks, referring back to Sean and Amanda's second thoughts on Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning. What is the most complete turnaround either of you had had on a movie, whether good or bad? As in you initially thought it was great or horrible, but then on a follow up viewing determined it to be either horrible or great?

[B]

I quibble with the premise of this question as well. I think that the Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning was an acceptance. I don't. We didn't come on this podcast being.

[A]

Like, yeah, no, we didn't celebrate the movie in the episode.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We, I mean we celebrated the sequences we liked and then we're just.

[B]

We wanted to find what was good about it. But I wouldn't call it a total turnaround. It. There was an emotional process that I needed to go through.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To. To fully get my arms around how bad it is. And that's just called podcasting. I don't really totally turn around on things.

[A]

This is not your style. This is not your style. Well, I think this is a really interesting thing. Right. Because I will tend to turn around on things when I've been persuaded by strong writing about something. Very rarely in conversation will I be persuaded. I also like a direct confrontation, but I vividly remember liking Birdman, seeing Birdman in movie theaters and liking it, maybe not loving it, not being like this is my favorite movie of all time, but being very easily persuaded by the technical wizardry, that feeling of the way that Inaritu is moving. I think I was at a stage of disinterest in his work at that point because I felt like the trilogy of, you know, deeply intense, painful, amorous, perros 21 grams babble like that stretch of movies by the end of it. I remember coming out of Babel and just being like hating that movie. And I liked that in Birdman he kind of like turned it around. More comedy. A Verve ton of actors that I really, really like in that movie. You know, great Michael Keaton, Emma Stone, Edward Norton. Like a lot of great stuff about it. I didn't like the Critic scene. I remember vividly with Lindsey Duncan in the bar. I remember that feeling very overwritten. But I did like the movie. And then I started reading more and more about the movie, and I was really persuaded to kind of see why it is actually more in the lineage of the previous films that I was not as crazy about, and that even in a zippy comedy about an existentialist movie star superhero, there's just a kind of, like, depressive self satisfaction in a lot of his work that I don't like. But that's the one that jumped out to me the most in terms of, like, now when I look at Birdman, I feel a lot of disinterest, but it happens from time to time. I think, like, on this show, we often get held accountable for things that we say in the moment. Like, the one I think of most is, like, we both had a pretty. A very positive conversation about Green Book.

[B]

We were charmed by it. Yeah. And then everything that came out about the way that movie was written and produced was made clear, and I was like, oh, okay. So I have some questions and concerns.

[A]

About this and also the scale of it going to winning Best Picture, which I don't think in the context of our first conversation, we were like, this movie should win Best Picture.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that kind of shatters your perception of something a bit, too.

[B]

I mean, we were maybe a little bit nervous about it. Like, I remember saying, like, this was a crowd pleaser, you know, and this was. This made a lot of people feel good. But no, I don't think that we thought it should win over Roma. Um, I. I think that my appreciation or understanding of movies does change over time, and that I can see. And it's usually with the, you know, my age and experience and things, the old, you know, different life phases. But I don't find myself being like, oh, yeah, this gave me the ick, or I didn't connect to this, and now I can really connect to it five or 10 years later. There's something, like, fundamental about it that just is my reaction.

[A]

I do think that there is. There's definitely, like, a putting away childish things feeling about some movies I liked as a kid or young. You know, it was interesting even firing up the Princess Bride this morning just to kind of get back into the feeling of it. And I didn't have a bad experience with it, but it felt different, you know, to see a movie like that when you're six, that world feels so real and so big. And then when you watch, you know, you're watching on a giant screen in your home with amazing sound.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, okay. I can kind of see the, you know, the cracks in the production design, like some of the artifice of the movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's another way that your kind of opinion can change about things. Okay, next question. You want to read this one?

[B]

I'd love to. This is from Sam. I really liked the end of Hamnet, but I was taken out of the movie and rolled my eyes big time when on the Nature of Daylight started playing to double underline the emotions of the scene. Can you think of any songs, needle drops that take you out of the movie?

[A]

The first one I thought of as kind of random, but the Pretender's angel of the Morning plays in a moment where a demon is vomiting on a kid in Chapter two. I remember just being bewildered by that.

[B]

Angel of the Morning gets used a lot. It does as a.

[A]

The Pretenders when we were growing up were licensed all the time.

[B]

Yes. Love the Pretenders, but just like as a. A needle drop to kind of draw your attention. Also, I think it's kind of overused. The first one I thought of was that weird cover of Skinny Love in It Ends with Us, which is. I literally burst out loud.

[A]

That's a great call.

[B]

In the fan screening, it was like you, me, and a bunch of 20 year olds on dates and I couldn't stop laughing. That was the. But it was transcendent. They couldn't have played anything else in that moment but that woman whispering Skinny Love.

[A]

Yeah, I can't do better than that. That's a really good one. Okay. I was not taken out of it in Hamnet. For the record.

[B]

I wasn't either at all.

[A]

It worked for me. It's been so interesting to hear people talking about this movie and how much they love it or don't love it or. It really is an interesting lightning rod this year. Okay, another Hamnet question just finished. Oh, this is Jim, by the way. Thank you, Jim. Just finished. The Hamnet and Top five Epson got me thinking. Hamnet didn't make anyone's top five, but Buckley still feels like an Oscar frontrunner, if slightly weaker than a few months ago. What are your thoughts on riveting, towering, shattering, beautiful performances in films that didn't quite hit for you? Should that devalue the performance or its awards potential? What are some of your all time favorite performances in movies that were just meh.

[B]

I mean, I wrote down something that now I'm rethinking after Riveting Towering, shattering, and beautiful, which is. Is an incredible movie. Poster, pull quote. But Joaquin Phoenix was very good in Joker. A movie I think is stupid, but he's really good. And it's a performance not just of presence, but the movement. We all know how I feel about the dancing. Very pro. Yeah, but that movie sucks. He was good in it, but it sucks.

[A]

Kind of liked Joker.

[B]

Okay, that's fine.

[A]

There's a whole pot of me saying that I kind of liked it. I mean, I think in retrospect, the culture around the movie I thought was incredibly annoying. I think it's fascinating that it made a billion dollars. Joker 2, Nightmare film.

[B]

Still haven't seen it, but I really enjoyed Yorin Van's podcast, which I think was the first podcast I listened to after Psy was born, because Psy was like, Cy's due date was that weekend.

[A]

I mean, that's touching to hear. And it's too bad that he couldn't still be inside you while you were listening to that episode. That would have been even more powerful. I wrote down Marion Cotillard and La Vie en Rose. This is a good call, which is a movie that I never really cared for. But you cannot deny the way in which she transforms and is just the towering, riveting, shattering quality is there. But that is ultimately just a musician biopic in many ways. And this does happen a lot in the Best Actress category. It does. You do see a lot of. And maybe that's just because of the way that the Academy views female performers and the way that they choose to honor them, but it's often, often not in the films that are nominated for Best Picture. It's often films that are, like, very singularly focused on a strong female figure, but there's maybe not enough attention paid to the rest of the world around them. But, you know, it's not as often as you might think.

[B]

I went through the Best Actress list because that was my first thought. I'm like, oh, well. And the winning performances, it's either. I didn't like the performance that much either, you know, along with the movie. For example, like, you know, Renee Zellweger and Judy. It's not a great movie, but also, it's okay. It's okay.

[A]

It's a little showy.

[B]

She's okay, and I like her. But for the most part, you don't get that unevenness of, wow, this is incredible stuff you're doing, and everyone's just, like, asleep around you. There's usually just a mediocrity across the board.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I also don't think Jesse Buckley's being received in that way. I don't think people are like, hamnet is a mess except for her. No, the movie is really, really, really well liked. Okay, you read the next one.

[B]

Okay. You both advocate for the idea or institution of the movie star and see it as a positive or virtuous force, something to preserve or advocate for. But I've never heard you explain why. So I am curious. Why do you care about preserving the movie star? What a great question, Luke.

[A]

I love this question. Yeah, a couple of very obvious things. One, movies are dreams, and they have to be manifested in human form. And the best way to do that is by finding someone who you can feel your dreams through. It's just a very simple thing where going back to talking about seeing the Reiner movies at a very young age, when you see Robin Wright in that movie, she is the embodiment of grace and beauty to a young person. She is just captivating. And I do think that we need a portal for those feelings and stars deliver that. J. Kelly is literally about that. Whether it's successful or not is debatable. But this notion of becoming deeper and more emotionally invested in storytelling by way of a person, and sometimes it's a hero holding a gun and sometimes it's a person at the most painful stage of their life. But. But we're at this inflection point with storytelling and artificial intelligence.

[B]

Yeah, fuck that.

[A]

And I do think that. I don't think that's the reason why I became really interested in movie stars as a young person. But I do think that now their sort of receding in the culture feels tied to who we look to, to feel, feel and get excited. There's. People are still doing that. You know, like influencers exist. TV shows are still popular. You know, it's not that that stuff is completely shattered, but the Disney investment in OpenAI and Sora is. Is genuinely concerning for me. Genuinely. Because it legitimizes something that could send us down a really slippery slope. And I was actually feeling like in the last few months, like there was a personal rejection, a very vocal rejection happening. You know, Guillermo tells horror before every screening of this movie, saying, like, there was no generative AI used in this movie. Fuck that. Jim Cameron doing the same thing. Like strong voices in the industry coming out really hard against it. But they see money and they're fearful of being overtaken, and that's why they're pursuing it.

[B]

Well, to that point, what that the investment is really like, as in Characters, I mean that's, you know, it's. The investment is in AI, but what it will enable people to do is use Disney specific characters in, you know, in makeup. I don't know, they're like sword fighting or whatever.

[A]

Minnie Mouse and Mirabel from Encanto can have a cup of tea together.

[B]

Right. Which is cool or whatever. But the characters you can license. But the characters have in many ways in movies and in our culture replaced movie stars as the franchisable thing. And there is like a strategic, dangerous part to that, which is everything you just said of that. It becomes less human and slips away from us and then just is computerized or whatever. But there is also you are losing like a human element in your movies. And so I think strategically in terms of the industry, you made the point. You know, there are influencers, there are other people. But like we still live in a world that is either characters or people based, like social media. And getting people to care about movies requires like a personality rather than.

[A]

You.

[B]

Know, like, I don't know, a screenwriter or like some sort of.

[A]

Well, you. Okay, here's a way to think about it. Think about Spider Man. Yeah, Spider man. One of the great characters, one of the defining characters of my young life. A character that persists like maybe the most Spider man and Batman, the most indestructible franchises to the minds of young people that we've seen in the last 50 years. Spider man does not work without Peter Parker. There has to be a kid, a teenager under the mask to get invested in that story. If you try to make a Spider man movie that is only Spider man and the mask, the movie will not work. So even in the circumstances of the most aggressive IP expansion imaginable, the biggest possible tent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's still about a person, that character that's been created.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm not saying that's going to happen for all times, but Tom Holland and Tobey Maguire have made this work because we like being with them. We like feeling their struggle.

[B]

You attach to the person. I mean, completely agree, but then artistically it's the same thing where like the difference between photography and cinema, the difference between painting and cinema, the difference between like a fashion show and cinema. All of like things I love are the people, the actors, they are. They're walking and talking. They are human. You are connecting. How are they moving in this world? How are they manipulating? What you are capturing is a person and a star. And so. And when they really do it, and what movies in particular invented is that movie star that person that is just like a little bit larger than life up on the screen. We always say you know it when you see it, but there is a presence and. But it is the humanity that makes it different from a piece of still art or a piece of music or any other art form that we love. So that's why they matter, because it's like the singular creation of the movies.

[A]

Well said. Last question. You want to read it?

[B]

Sure. I recently went to see one of my top five favorite films, the Shining in imax and consider that to be one of the best theater going experiences of the year and potentially ever. Are there any other film classics that would raise your eyebrows to see getting the IMAX re release treatment?

[A]

This should happen for a lot of movies.

[B]

It happened for Apollo 13 this year and I missed it, which would have been my answer.

[A]

It's a tough one. My mind flashed on the Good, the Bad and the Ugly first because of the size and scope of that movie. And just Leone capturing the eyes on the biggest screen possible would be really exciting. But I mean, any film classic, I miss the Shining as well. That would have been really exciting. But this does feel a little bit like backstopping. Like this worst case scenario situation we're heading into with moviegoing where it's like, okay, well at least you can go see Blank. You know, I almost went to go see the Jim Carrey, the the Grinch Stole Christmas Ron Howard movie this weekend with my daughter. We ended up not being able to make it, but I was like, I don't, you know, I, I've actually never seen that movie. And she loves the Grinch. Right now we're all about the Grinch. We visited you know who Ville at Universal Studios. So now Grinch culture. Cindy Lou.

[B]

Okay, sure. She has a big deal. Mega Cindy Lou vibes for sure.

[A]

Huge. There's. I have a wonderful photo of them meeting at Universal Studios. Yeah, big moment. But I was like, it just makes sense to just put that movie on an imax screen for five nights every December 10th, like that. This methodology, this strategy works, but I don't know if there's any individual movies that you really would like to see in this format.

[B]

Well, going back to classic movies, I was thinking west side Story, Singing in the Rain, anything with movement, which for me would be choreography, just as big as possible would be really fun. But you know, I would like to go see. I missed the Sense and Sensibility re release because I have to go see Anaconda instead, which is my life.

[A]

I would like to see Anaconda I.

[B]

Want to, but, you know, I don't need that to be imax. I would love for that to just be like in a big, beautiful theater. I thought when we did the Inglourious Basterds event, like that print was so gorgeous. So getting to see movies that I love in, in the way or in the best possible format of, of, of how they were made or how they were intended to be made is cool. Like, I mean, that is, it's just called a repertory theater, you know, and, and bless all of those people. So if we could get more work for programmers and get more like, again, it's not, not a bad thing. I'm, I'm open to it.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Yeah. Go see Sense and Sensibility if you can.

[A]

You love premium large formats. You're always saying that.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon prime like an action blockbuster. The holidays move quick, but with prime fast. Free delivery means those last minute gifts arrive right when you need them. Last year, while watching Singing in the Rain with my son, I realized a pair of tap shoes would be a perfect Christmas gift. And I had them under the tree for him on Christmas day. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. Last minute holiday magic. It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.comprime to shop now.

[A]

Let's pivot. Thank you for your questions as always. Great questions. Wake up, dead man. A knives out mystery. This is the third film in the series. Once again written and directed by Rian Johnson. The stars of this film as Benoit Blanc. Daniel Craig returns. Josh o', Connor, Glenn Close, Josh Brolin, Mila Kunis, Jeremy Renner, Kerry Washington, Andrew Scott, Kaylee Spaeny, Daryl McCormick and Thomas Hayden Church wildly qualified collection of actors in this movie. The logline is A baffling death inside a quiet church draws Benoit Blanc into a tense investigation where faith, secrets and suspicion blur as a close community of turns against itself. All right, what did you think about this?

[B]

I like these movies. I like Rian Johnson and I share a huge passion for Agatha Christie. The Agatha Christie adaptations of the 70s. A similar sense of humor. He makes me laugh. I like many of the actors he chooses to be in his films. And I'm never gonna say no to hanging out with Daniel Craig and Josh O'Connor together for several hours. And I think that there's a really delightful buddy comedy in the middle of this. I do not care about Catholicism this much. I just don't care. And listen I was raised, like, Catholic as well. And I've, you know, I went to a Christian school. I've, like, I've had a lot of these questions, done a lot of investigations myself, know where I am on it, and then, like, sort of unmoved by it. So it's really Catholic. I rewatched it again last night to make sure, like, was I, you know, am I overestimating how much of the time is spent talking about the church and faith and making jokes about it? And it is. It is, like really, really, really embedded. And that it's. It's not that it's not well done. I just, like, I don't care this much about priests. I just don't. So that is where I netted.

[A]

I think it will sound odd if I say I do care this much about priests because I'm not sure that that's exactly what's going on. You know, when I was going to church as a kid, I also was raised Catholic. There was a kind of an intonation and invocation that you would hear. Priests. And the priests in my church sang. And the priests would say, sing. Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith in a very stentorian tone. And let us proclaim the mystery of our faith. That's the thing you would hear over and over again in church. And I had no idea what that meant. I didn't understand it as a kid. I didn't explore it. I was not interested in it. This movie is interested in that. This movie is very specifically interested in that. I don't think you have to be a person who is undecided about their faith for this movie to be interesting. And I don't think you need to be Catholic or a non believer to get interested in this movie. It probably helps if you're open to exploring it because as a mystery, I think the movie is just okay. I think actually, Rian Johnson has kind of gotten a little bit like, he's very interested in the mechanics, but maybe not in the propulsion of the mystery itself. And I think that happens when you write a series of movies like this. And I think he's trying to do something really interesting and has been mostly successful in this part, which is he's trying to make movies that are otherwise meant to be going down easy entertainments. The Agatha Christie stories, which are great, but are very rarely thematically deep and rich. They are page turners.

[B]

No.

[A]

And he's trying to put big personal ideas into the movies. The first movie is about the sort of corrosive nature of wealth and what wealthy people do to hurt others and in turn everyone in the world, which.

[B]

Is what every eyed career Christie mystery is about it. It is always about money and someone needed money or someone wanted inheritance or something. So the, the first one is grounded, it's like in its text and genre and what it's examining is the genre itself.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so the further you move away from that and you use the same genre to explore different ideas, you're just stuffing a lot of things.

[A]

Yeah. And I think the second movie is a kind of an extension. Extension of that first idea, which is it's about influencers and the desire for fame and success and technology and the kind of grotesque people that we're presented with in our common life every day and like the ways in which they fight each other for their share of the pie. And we all watch and there's some cleverness in it. I didn't think that movie was as funny as I wanted it to be, but I thought it got some really good performances. And the same with the first film. The first film has great stuff from Toni Collette and that's like the best Chris Evans has ever been and Ana de Armas. And the second film, Kate Hudson is really great in that movie. Edward Norton is great in that movie. The third film is more serious than the first two. And it is a movie that is. It's a big delivery machine for Johnson, thinking through his ideas of faith. And he talked in our conversation, I thought really sincerely about when you have it and then you lose it. And this movie features a character that has it and another character who has lost it or maybe never had it. And they're in dialogue. And those two characters are the Joshua Connor character, who's a priest, Father Judd, and Benoit Blanc, who's a detective, a man of logic, not a person who's interested in the mystery of faith. He solves mysteries. That stuff in this movie I thought was really cool. And particularly the moment when you get near the sort of like the 2/3 of the way through the movie, almost near the end of the movie, when Blanc, who takes a long time to get to the film, who basically sits out the first 40 minutes of this movie, but when he sort of takes over at the 2 hour mark, 1 hour and 45 minute mark, and he's solving the movie and he's doing the thing he's done in the previous two films and he's saying, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then he can't close the loop, he can't Figure out the last step of the mystery. And that is a feeling that I have been confronted with, about thinking about God and where we come from and why we're here and all those big questions. To put that in a crime mystery movie, I think, is very cool. And for him to get stumped and for logic to fail us, I think is a powerful concept. I do think that I was not really as interested in the solution of the crime. And maybe in that way it's a success, though I think that's maybe inadvertent.

[B]

I was trying to figure out which really famous person only took the movie to do, you know, because they were the person. So I.

[A]

Which was because they were the criminal, the perpetrator. Yeah.

[B]

Because I was not invested in the mechanics of the mystery. I was just trying to invest in the, like, superficial layer of, like, okay, so it's going to be one of these people because they wanted to, like, chew a lot of scenery and then have a twist. So who's going to. Who's it going to be? Is it this person? Is it this person? So maybe that is also. I was engaged with the meta of the genre as opposed to trying to solve the mystery. But I wouldn't say it was, like, satisfying in that way.

[A]

Yeah. I felt that most of the folks who were in the secondary cast, the suspects, were all, like, kind of rough shades of characters, whereas I felt like Father Judd was probably the most clearly realized character Johnson's ever put in one of these movies.

[B]

He was wonderful. I mean, Josh o' Connor has been everywhere this season. I thought he was used so beautifully. He was funny and emotional. He and Daniel Craig have great chemistry.

[A]

They do.

[B]

I really do hope they bring him back. I would love to have the buddy duo solving crimes. Like, maybe they don't have to talk as much about their spiritual crisis, but it just, like, at some point, it was kind of like, do you want to be in a philosophy class right now or do you not? I know, but you do you like that.

[A]

And it's just.

[B]

It's. It's. Your mileage may vary. I thought all of the other jokes were very funny. It is very. There is a lot of comedy. I like hanging out with these people, even though I agree that, like, the prayer group. I didn't know what was going on with the prayer group.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's an interesting case of a few more than one person being miscast in their parts.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, Andrew Scott, to me, is definitively miscast in this movie as a kind of, like, fantasy writer. Who's making a pivot towards right wing substacking and becomes a zealot for this priest. So, you know, just to put some fencing around the story, Josh Brolin plays this monsignor at this church that has a dwindling flock. And the people who are staying are these hardcore believers in his methodology. The Brolin character is a very clear one to one projection for Donald Trump. The sort of like, invective and insanity that he's preaching from the pulpit, but he still is retaining like a kind of maniacal allegiance from the true believers.

[B]

And also just has some of the greatest confessions of.

[A]

I mean, it's so funny trying to push Father Judd off of his square. There's some really good stuff between the two of them too. I think Brolin's really good in this too. You know, he's kind of playing like a very. An unsophisticated caricature of this idea that we understand about people in the world. It's not just Trump, but there's a lot of Trump like qualities to the way that he leads. And I think all that stuff is really fun, but the people who are allegiant to him feel more like chess pieces than people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Whereas you've got this really strong counterpoint with what o' Connor is doing. And, you know, he's like a. He's riffing on some sort of old movie archetype too, where he's a priest who used to be a boxer and he accidentally killed a guy and that challenged his faith and pushed him even further into being a person who does good. But he still has this kind of native violence inside of him and he's trying to fight that. All that stuff, I think, is really clever and works really well. I think Johnson's sense of social commentary is usually pretty broad. I don't know if that's a bad thing necessarily, but it doesn't. It's like it can be incisive about the right ideas, but anytime you can feel his point of view on politics coming into view, it feels a little bit softer and more obvious to me than when he is really zeroing in on something that is, like, racking his brain. So, I don't know. I mean, I.

[B]

The Bridget Everett scene is wonderful. And that's also an example that that is about faith. And that is like a really beautiful and beautifully acted scene between two people on a phone that is like almost from another movie, but that's okay.

[A]

Amazing example of what a good writer he is.

[B]

Totally. And also both people perfectly cast for that scene. So that was really lovely. It has so many great moments.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Like, the idea of the confession, the idea of, like, why you need someone and something to believe in is such a rich idea that the mystery stuff is kind of getting in the way of some of that stuff at times.

[B]

It's two and a half hours and there's a lot. There's a lot going on in it. A lot of people, a lot of plot maneuvering, a lot of. And so I think that I connected to a lot of it. Not all of it, but to your point, it's really enjoyable and easy to watch. And does it matter if I connect to every bit of it? Because many people will watch and really enjoy this. It's not. Not successful.

[A]

You think a movie like this can change the way people feel? Because I don't. People don't turn on Knives out movies to change the way that they feel. I think they're these sort of like velvety, frictionless fun times, but they're all undergirded with heavy stuff. And I genuinely don't know if people like that component. It's probably my favorite component of the films, but I don't know if the general audience does.

[B]

I don't know whether they consciously do. I don't think that these movies are successful because people are like, now I'm reevaluating my relationship to my faith and the Catholic Church circa 2023 or whatever. But I. I do think that they're successful movies and that they are crowd pleasers, you know, with something elevated, something that maybe you don't think about. I mean, you know, to like to bring it back to Rob Reiner. There's, like a lot more going on. I mean, there's these movies which are a lot denser, but broad fare done smartly that can really maybe just like twist or poke someone without them realizing is increasingly rare and a real accomplishment.

[A]

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[A]

Might be getting back into faith in 2026. Maybe not a. Maybe not a religion, right?

[B]

This is the second time that you've brought up your burgeoning spirituality. The first time was like two hours into the way of water. So I just want to do a little wellness check there for you.

[A]

I'm doing well, I think. I'm really thinking about the second half of my life. I'm being dead serious. I have a young child. You know, my dad's getting older. I lost my mom. I'm really trying to, like, figure it out. Even in talking to Ryan, I could not help but think of my mama watching this movie because she was a very faithful person. And one thing that I told him was that she was close friends with a couple of priests, especially in second half her life. So, like, I would come home from school and Father Bruce would just be sitting on the couch and I'd be like, what the fuck is this? Like, is he allowed to be here? Do they let them out of the rectory?

[B]

It is like seeing your teacher outside of school when you're 12.

[A]

Yes. So, you know, I don't know that I definitely don't feel a strong attraction to, like, Catholicism. I have a lot of problems with Catholicism, the church. Like, I'm not really interested in that.

[B]

But spirituality, yes. Organized religion, not so much. I'm hard mixed.

[A]

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Yeah. Okay, what about. Would this movie have made $400 million? The movie theater. We said that about Glass Onion, Right? We were like, if you put this in theaters, this would have made so much money. Now it feels like the movie has been, like, defined as a streaming property, which is kind of frustrating.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Because I think the next one doesn't have to be Netflix.

[B]

Oh, they're out of their contract.

[A]

They're out of their deal on that. I don't know. I don't know. I could be wrong about that.

[B]

They didn't tell me.

[A]

Who didn't? Ted, did Ted call you? Yeah, I mean, it's Ted. Look, I'm just calling because I have the details of the Knives out contract here for you. And I just want you to know we've just closed the deal. Here are all the details.

[B]

Right. Yeah, that's the call I'm hoping for from Ted. Anyway. This is a pleasant movie.

[A]

Yeah, it is. Oscars?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

I don't think so either. Yeah, we leave it at that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Let's go to my conversation with Rian Johnson. Rian Johnson, back on the show. I haven't seen you in a few years, and I was thinking about something, watching Wake Up Deadman. When you made the deal to make two more Knives Out Benoit Blanc films, did you know what either of those movies were going to be, even in terms of, like, general direction? I want to make a movie that is kind of like this or kind of like this.

[C]

Not really when we first made the deal, but I guess I figured I'd figure it out. But I. Very quickly, like, with Glass Onion kind of landed on. Okay. I wanted to do something kind of. To illustrate that one of the things I love about the murder mystery genre is just all the different things it can be. Just how different. All the little sub genres almost inside it. So I wanted to make something that was very distinct from Knives out to kind of show what the range of this series could be. And then. And I love Death on the Nile, Evil under the Sun, I love Last of Sheila. It was in the middle of COVID so the notion of, like, having an exotic beach vacation sounded really nice to me and I assumed for audiences, too. So it kind of defined itself as that. And then this one, a little bit of the same thing it was, you know, Glass Onion ended up being a very broad kind of comedic movie, which is exactly what we set out to make. But I just kind of, after doing that, I felt like, well, it'll be nice to ground it for this third one and maybe take it to a place that is also very different from the first two. Kind of make it a little more personal for myself and bring it kind of back down to earth a little bit.

[A]

Do you find that every film that you make is a kind of reaction, in a way to the previous movie that you had made or an attempt to kind of do something that you hadn't done previously?

[B]

Well, yeah.

[C]

I mean, not strategically. Not like sitting down and thinking, okay, how do I. But I think. I mean, for me, because I write these movies also, you know, the process of making a movie is several years, and it's. I like to say it's kind of like having the same thing for lunch for a few years. It's kind of at the end of that process, you're. Yeah. I think you're just kind of thirsting for something different. And for me, I'm also like, you know, I've kind of. For me, I do feel like I need to always feel like I'm a little frightened going into something. Cause I don't know how to do it. And the way to do that is to try something new every time, I.

[A]

Guess I have a lot of questions about faith and your faith. But one thing that does jump out to me about this movie in particular is it seems like a little bit of a confrontation with the idea of, like, why do we like stories like this? Especially if we are raised to believe that the things that happen in these stories are wrong. And you're undeniably drawn to the construction and particulars and motivations of murder mystery. And then this is a movie grounded in a world of good deed. Right. Intent, or at least the hope of good deed.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Was that on your mind, trying to construct this?

[C]

I mean, I guess a little bit. It's kind of. I mean, because I don't even know. It's not even specific to faith in terms of that. We're all. Whether we're raised in faith or not, we're grouped. Hopefully we're brought up to think murder is bad.

[A]

Hopefully.

[C]

And where do we go? The instant we have some free reading time, we go straight to a murder book. But I mean, if anything, I think that for me, one of the things I kind of wanted to delve into with the movie is I think there's actually a lot of parallels between the structure of a murder mystery and the overall kind of story of faith. I guess it's, you know, a murder mystery starts with an original sin, a murder, and the universe is thrown into moral chaos. And then the detective kind of. There's usually the kind of patriarchal detective descends from the heavens into the story and listens to everyone's confession and then sorts out the truth and hands the answer at the end and judges the guilty and restores the universe to moral rights. So in that way, I think it actually. These stories snap in very well with someone who is. Who was raised in the church and raised religious in a way. So. Well, actually, that. That's something I kind of wanted to draw those parallels out and explore that.

[A]

Were those your favorite kinds of stories? The ones that had a kind of moral rectitude? Like, at the end there, you're just like, okay, well, the evil force has been identified and imprisoned and the good detective. Because I feel like there's shades of gray is what makes so many of these kinds of stories so effective.

[C]

I mean. Yeah, I guess it depends specifically which ones you're talking about. I feel like, especially when I was growing up, I was drawn towards moral clarity. And then especially as I got older, I think you start getting into movies that were made in the 70s that have a lot less than getting into authors who. You start looking a little closer even to works that you thought you knew. And you realize now there's a law gray there. But. But with. I don't know, I mean, murder mysteries, it though. And very specifically kind of the whodunit genre, although there's a lot of different gradations of that. I think they too do tend to like, I think the word cozy when people describe these. It's not necessarily because of firesides and because of warm dens. You know, I think that it's. I think it has more to do with the fact that they do always kind of neatly tie up at the end, usually. I mean, Christie did some books where they didn't, you know, or where they tie up in a way that, like, I think her best book and Then There Were None. It does very much tie up at the end, but in a morally a way that leaves a lot of questions in the reader's lap in terms of how they want to parse the moral outcome of it all. So anyway, yeah, but I do think it's an inherent. It is a form that kind of. The promise of the premise is that there will be kind of a button put on at the end in terms of the moral conclusion.

[A]

I'm personally very interested in the dissolution of religious practice generationally, in America especially. And I think that people use that as a cudgel to make arguments about why things are one way or another. But there's no denying that I was raised in the Catholic Church. It sounds like you were as well.

[C]

I wasn't raised Catholic. I was raised Protestant, evangelical. But I was. It's not just that I was. You know, I don't know how it was for you. For me, it wasn't just that I was like, taken to church a lot when I was a kid. I was up through my mid-20s. I was very personally Christian and just. It was really, you know, a big part of my identity. It was how I framed the world through a very personal relationship with Christ. And I'm not a believer anymore, but for that period of my life, it was a really personal thing, but. Yeah, I'm sorry.

[A]

Well, I'm interested in that. I'm also not a believer anymore. And I think that for me personally, it was this idea of logic and practicality winning out over something that it couldn't grasp.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Everybody has different reasons for losing it or moving away from it or even just. I find a lot of people actually just kind of put it on the bench and then come back to it at a later stage in their life.

[C]

Yeah, that happens. Yeah.

[A]

And so I'm kind of wondering, like, maybe with that, you don't have to be too personal, but I'm curious just about, like, your journey with it. And then the idea of saying, like, I'm moving on from this. But then what in your life now made you confront it again or think about these ideas and plug it into this world? That is such a very fun world. You know, that has been, like, this incredible boon of success for you personally. That is, like, the thing you're known for now.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And now you're, like, using it to channel something that is very complex.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Which was part of the appeal of it. I mean, I. I mean, I think that. Yeah. There's a lot to unpack on what you just said.

[A]

Let's.

[C]

Let's go. Let's go back a couple sentences. Let's start with the. Starting with kind of the notion of reason or logic, kind of. I mean, for me, I. I don't know that I would frame my kind of moving away from faith and no longer being a believer. As. For me, it was less kind of. Although that was an element of it just literally losing my belief in the reality of the thing that I had believed in up till then. But I also didn't have any. I think probably because, I don't know. I made a movie. My second movie I made the Brothers Bloom, was kind of, in a very oblique way, sort of very much about this. It's what I was going through when I was writing it. It was very much about the notion of how you frame the world around you. And more than anything else, more than some kind of tangible belief in the supernatural or belief in an afterlife or any of the things that people think faith centers on. For me, what my faith was was a lens through which I viewed everything in the world. Everything in the world got filtered through that lens. And it was a. You know, not to. I don't mean this to belittle it at all when I say it was a narrative framing device, because I think that we. All. We can't survive in this world without narrative framing device. To me, that's just being alive is an active act of storytelling where you take in the raw world around you and then you tell it, figure out how you're going to tell it back to yourself.

[A]

And that's totally what Judeo Christian faith does, is it tells stories to communicate ideas. Right?

[C]

Yeah. And Christ communicating through parables. And in the larger sense, I mean, that's also what I mean, every philosophy does. That's what I mean. Modern society does. That's what I think. That's just. It's so central to our experience, to what our existence is as a human being and how we, you know, how we make sense of this insane world that we're floating in in the middle of space. So, anyway, all to say that for me, I don't think I ever had the sense that I was kind of shedding this illusion of faith in order to find some raw truth of the actual logical, real universe or something. For me, it was more drifting away, and I no longer believe in this. And it actually created kind of a crisis in my twenties of realizing I needed to find another thing to frame.

[A]

The world through, you know, so using it in this film and in this world. And I'm sure you're getting this quite a bit, but the movie kind of hides Benoit Blanc. This really does become the story of this priest and Josh's character, and I'm curious about that decision and also maybe what that reflects about the kind of movie that you wanted to make. Obviously, Benoit Blanc comes into the movie at a certain point and is important to the film.

[C]

I promise, Daniel Craig is in this movie. He's in the movie.

[A]

But we see, we spend a lot of time with this priest who is trying to figure out the morality of this world that he is thrust into, which feels like a very gentle metaphor for the world that we live in right now. I assume that's what you were aiming for.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, you know, yeah. It's funny that. I mean, in a way, this kind of has a much more traditional murder mystery structure. This is the way most murder mystery books work is first act is you set up all the characters. You kind of get a very good idea of who's gonna get bumped off. They get bumped off, and then the detective shows up to solve it. And so I had actually kind of done narrative backflips in the first two movies to not have it structured that way. So with this one, besides, just like, okay, well, let's try. Let's order Vanilla let's try the basic thing on this one. Also, though, it suited the story very well because Father Judd, who's kind of the central character, is played by Josh o'. Connor. Because the movie is about things that are a little bit more complicated and require a little. And also things that are very personal and important to me, and I didn't want to shorthand them in a way that would feel reductive or didactic. I wanted to take the time to kind of actually explore the complexity of what he was, of the conflict of Father Judd in this world. And I knew the instant Blanc came into the story that would detract from that. So the notion of giving Jud that first act in this world for the audience, really, to get a full picture kind of of what he wants and why he can't get it, and the bigger picture of all the characters. And Wicks played Monsignor Wicks, played by Josh Brolin, and the whole thing. Yeah, it seemed like it would suit it.

[A]

Well, you know, I want to ask you about priests. When my parents split up, my mom became very invested in the church, and she befriended a priest, and he became a social friend. So she would have parties, and Father Bruce would be at my house, which was very disorienting at first, but I think was pretty powerful, ultimately, to just learn that he was a pretty regular guy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know if you knew priests growing up. In Josh's character, I see a pretty regular guy, which is not usually what you see of priests in movies.

[C]

So, like I said, growing up Evangelical Protestant, that meant growing up in youth groups, and that meant that. It's funny, I was just reminiscing the other day with, like, a. Someone I met who was in a youth group. Kid, also. And it's a very distinct vibe. And it's.

[A]

My wife was a youth group kid.

[C]

Oh, there you go. All right. There you go. So, I mean, and. And it's a thing where, like, you know, the. The youth pastor who's maybe the equivalent of a priest, but it's kind of just with the acoustic guitar just, like, strumming. Come on, man.

[A]

That's a very, very recognizable guy.

[C]

Let's get real. Let's talk about your walk with Christ. Come on, let's talk. And so regular guy up the wazoo. Where I come from. The priests, though, I mean, also, because Catholicism was kind of exotic to me because I wasn't raised in it, the priests always did have that kind of, like, outer shell. I. My. I have a uncle and aunt who Are very Catholic, who I'm very close to and I love a lot. And they live in Denver. And they were very kind. When I told them about the script I was writing, they said, well, they invited me. Basically. I flew out to Denver and they did a dinner at their place with their priest and Father Scott. And he invited, like, five of his friends who are young priests in Denver. And so I had this amazing dinner with a half dozen young priests. And we all just got drunk and it became a big ask me anything session.

[A]

Would you mind sharing a couple of the things that you talked about, like, without betraying anyone's confidence? Because I'm curious to hear how they want to be seen in a way.

[C]

Well, it was interesting. It was because, as I said, we didn't talk about theology or faith really. We talked about their lives. We talked about what their lives were actually like. And I was kind of, like, nervous to, like, you know, to go into the whole. Celibacy. Celibacy, Celibacy thing. Which today is the first thing you want. It was the first thing they brought up and started talking.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

And they. It was very insightful. I mean, just. I mean, first of all, just like. Yeah, incredibly insightful hearing from them. And also. Also what you're talking about in terms of Father Bruce just hanging out at my mom's house. Yeah, your mom's house. Immediately, it was that vibe. Because they were just like, cool. Yeah, they're just like, you know, young guys, and they're like, you know. And I mean, I remember one thing that ended up translating directly into the movie. For example, they were talking about how, you know, when they go to the grocery store, they're wearing, you know, the collar, the clerical collar. And that means they're on stage all the time. So they'll be picking out avocados in the grocery store. And a woman will come up and start sobbing to them. Cause her dad has just died. Or someone will come up and get in their face and start screaming at them. You know, and that's something I had never even thought about. The notion that in a way, you know, they're always at work. And that means, to an extent, always kind of the way people must look, kind of what you're describing. Everyone kind of has that reaction to them in their entire regular lives. Yeah.

[A]

It's like being a politician, but with no individual identity. It's like you stand for something.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But you're not responsible to it.

[C]

Right.

[A]

For creating it. It's a very odd role in life.

[C]

And also, unlike a politician, it's like being a politician if all politicians wore a T shirt that said politician.

[A]

Right, right. I am Nancy Pelosi. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's an interesting job. And I. Can you tell me why you chose Josh? We just had a conversation on the show last week about the Mastermind.

[C]

Oh, my gosh, I love that movie.

[A]

And he's wonderful. And he's in this kind of period where you're watching a person become that very rare, like, brilliant actor, movie star blend where you can put a movie on his shoulders. But he's super gifted and very. I find, so versatile in terms like the kind of material that he can do. Yeah. Maybe just tell me why you chose him. What you'd seen him in that you liked.

[C]

Yeah. So I hadn't been familiar with him. I mean, I'd seen him in the Crown, I guess, but Daniel actually knew him through Luca. And so they screened Challengers for us before it came out. And, I mean, it was my favorite movie of that year. I love that movie.

[A]

So good.

[C]

And I mean, he just, like, popped off the screen. But then I saw La Chimera, which is such a different. I mean, almost the polar opposite performance. And he was equally as truthful and magnetic in that. And I was just like, oh, my God, I think this guy can do anything. And then I met him, and he was absurdly nice, suspiciously nice. Like, you almost can't believe a guy is that cool. And I just thought, I want to work with this guy. I want to be on set with this guy. And we caught him at a great time. I bet if we had gone to him today, we wouldn't have gotten him because he's in everything at this point. He's in so much stuff. He's, like, working with Spielberg and Joel Cohen. He's so busy, but rightfully so. I am really excited to see over the next five, ten, however many years, how he develops, because I think he's the full package. I think he can do it all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How about ensembles now? So three movies in a row like this where you have extremely well known people in these kind of modest parts. Right. So I'm curious about the psychology of actors who want to come in and do this. If you're Kerry Washington, she's insanely famous. She's a fairly modest part in this role. It's a critical part, but it's not that big. So why do people want to do it? And how do you navigate having five movie stars who all get a real small piece of the pie relative to what they're used to, I would imagine.

[C]

Well, I mean, it's a great, great, great question, but it kind of answers itself. I think the truth is we've had such a great time with all three of these casts. I've never, not once, had to deal with, like, any movie star, ego star stuff at all. Quite the opposite. And I think the answer is exactly that. Every single one of these people are people who carry their own movies. The only reason for them to sign up for this is because they want to be part of an ensemble and because they love actors and they want that experience of kind of being in a little summer stock group for one movie. And. And so they show up on set and we really try and facilitate that by. It kind of happened organically with the first two movies, but in this one, we built some tents off the side of the stage that were the green room for them all to hang out in together. And nobody went back to their trailers. Everyone just kind of gravitated towards that. And it's because that's kind of the appeal of this, I think, is you're going to be in a true ensemble with another group of actors. And good actors love that. I mean, that's the thing. It's. I don't know, you can see them kind of really feeding off of that when they show up on set.

[A]

I don't know if I've ever asked you about your sets before. Have they changed over time? What vibe are you going for when you're making a movie?

[C]

I mean, I grew up making movies with my friends. That was kind of. I went to film school, but I think my real film school was just in high school making stupid movies on the weekends. And that was what we did to hang out. And that's how I want my sets to feel. And I've been very fortunate that all of my sets, like even the Star wars movie, had that vibe on set.

[A]

I saw it in the documentary.

[C]

Yeah, you can feel it. Yeah, it was really true. It's like. And so that's the vibe that I always want. And with these movies, that's kind of why it's been kind of addictive making them is because you got all these great actors, they show up for a good time, and it's just primed to kind of have the set feel like we're back in high school again together, to make something fun together, you know? And, I mean, that comes from a lot of hard work, and that comes from being prepared and knowing what you want. And I think that comes from everyone relaxing and everyone can relax when they know that. You know, when they know that I'm going to make them. I'm going to make them look hopefully good, you know, in a good movie. So that's part of it, but it's also just. It's a vibe.

[A]

So. I know you get asked this all the time, but will you make these films, the Benoit Blanc movies, like, for 40 more years? Is that your intention is to kind of keep coming back to this world? I know it sounds like you're going to maybe take a break from them, at least for the next thing.

[C]

Yeah, I'm writing something different for the next movie. I. I mean, look, I. I would be thrilled to keep making these until I'd be thrilled to live another 40 years. God bless you for that. Well, but I would be thrilled.

[A]

30 years. That's.

[C]

Aim for four.

[A]

Let's aim for 37 more years.

[C]

37. That's a good round number. I would be thrilled to keep coming back to these. I guess the caveat is just, you know, as long as Daniel still enjoys making it, as long as audiences are still into it, and as long as. And this is nice that he and I kind of like share this. I think we both feel like the instant. It feels like we're turning the crank on another one will stop. We have to be able to, with each new one, really do something different that's challenging ourselves and hopefully that'll translate for the audience into them knowing each one of these is a different novel on the shelf, that's going to give you a different experience. Experience. And you're not just going to go and see us kind of doing the thing again.

[A]

Many of your films feature this, but obviously the last three have been so pointedly mysteries. But having done this now, and this is true in Brick and even in the Star wars film, when you're designing a mystery, what is the most important thing in terms of cracking it?

[C]

Well, I mean, there's a few different layers to it. There's all the setups and the payoffs and all that stuff. And there's kind of the. But honestly, I feel like the most important thing is that you start from the same basic fundamentals you start with. With a non mystery, which is who's your protagonist? What do they want? Why can't they get it? Why do we care? And that combined with hopefully the movie being, for me, engaging with something personal that I'm angry about or thinking about, you know, that I can used to kind of explore for myself to give it some juice, that being the fundamental thing of it and the mystery element of it serving that. Because I don't think that. I think that's the spine you gotta build everything on.

[A]

Did Agatha Christie write from that place, do you know? Or to any of the other great mystery writers?

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Just that personal manifestation of a feeling, 100%.

[C]

You read Christy and you read especially her best books and they're always, I mean, what she was so good at was character. And they're always character based. And you can see there's always a protagonist in them. There's always. What keeps you engaged is the personal motivations of each of the suspects, even, you know. And also the protagonist is never the detective or is rarely the detective. It's usually somebody who has skin in the game who's actually in the middle of the mystery. But yeah, you think about death on the Nile and one of the all time great basic setups and it's this vicious love triangle that you're immediately pulled into. Or. Yeah, but all the great mystery writers did. John Dickson Carr, who we name check throughout this was also fantastic at immediately pulling you in with human drama and with gothic atmosphere. I think all the great mystery writers knew instinctively that the mystery was not something that would bear the weight of entertaining an audience for an entire story.

[A]

So I was thinking back on other times that we had talked to prepare for this conversation. And the first time that I met you was in a Disney conference room in 2017. And I had really just started doing this show.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And had a nice chat.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But I, you know, I really, I liked all of your movies to that point.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And was very interested in where your career was going. And I'm sure I asked you like fumbled through some questions about like the.

[C]

Arc of your career. I fumbled through some answers.

[A]

But you know, from that moment to now is a very, is a very unusual. Right. Because you are, you have worked in like some of the significant modes of major Hollywood through that roughly what, eight or nine year period, maybe 10 years total, including when you started making the Star wars film. So Star wars film. And then you built your own franchise and then that franchise became part of the biggest streaming service in the world. Is this even a little bit what you thought it was going to be when you were making Jedi and 16?

[C]

No, you don't. No way, man. Yeah. No, you don't know, right? I mean, I don't know. But did you know when we were sitting there doing that that you'd be.

[A]

Yeah, but I'm just a schmuck. You're like a guy who makes a mess.

[C]

No, no, it's. No, it's very silly. It's like I think that. No, I think. And I don't know, I don't know how you feel, but my. Not just not like a philosophy of how to approach a career, but literally the only way that you can do it, I think that works is to quote Joseph Campbell, you gotta follow your bliss. You just gotta put your foot in the next place where it's most exciting to take this next step to. And that's literally the only thing that I've ever done. And the notion of somehow projecting forward like a 10 year plan or something, there are people who are maybe brilliant who can do that. I've never even tried to do that. To me, it's all about what is the very next experience that I wanna have. What's the next step story I want to tell, what's the most exciting next thing to do. And so it's really not looking much further than the next step with each one of these. Yeah.

[A]

I wanted to ask you about T Street because it's another thing that I don't think was happening in 2017.

[C]

No, I think we started it like right around or right after there. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The impression I get is that you're trying to identify first time or early filmmakers or independent filmmakers and give them a little bit more of a boost. Yeah, I don't know what other kind of presiding philosophy you have.

[C]

No, that's a big part of it. It's, you know, and in the context of finding filmmakers who have exciting voices who are also. We're also kind of dedicated to finding filmmakers who have exciting voices who want to make whatever you want to call it, quote unquote, commercial films like our films that are made for audiences to enjoy. And I say that as someone who loves. Who loves art house movies and loves, loves, loves. And some of my favorite films every year are always weird art house movies we're kind of dedicated to. Okay, let's find voices that are. That are really interesting and passionate and engaging in kind of commercial filmmaking. Yeah.

[A]

How are you finding that? Because you've had pretty good success. You got an Academy Award winning film on the. On the roster. Right. Like in Court and Chloe Dillman was on the show Fair and Clay, you know, Snack Shack, one of our favorites from last year. Like some really good movies.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But those kinds of films are very challenged, like to get in front of audiences right now. We talk about it every week, probably too much. But how do you think about that phase of the Business in terms of getting movies in front of people.

[C]

Well, it's a challenge. And in terms of how we do it, I should also say I'm, you know, my producer, Ron Bergman, and then our producing team at T Street is really the. They're the ones who do it. I get to be the cool uncle on these projects. It's not like I'm in there reading a thousand scripts. I'm doing my own movies, and I get to check in. So all the credit to them. But it is. I mean, it is a challenge. You also, though, I think you have to operate from a feeling of faith to come back. To come back to faith. You have to operate from a feeling of faith that if you make something. I don't know, if you make something that's truly interesting and truly good, it'll find its audience. And it might be a roundabout way of finding it. It might take a while, it might not. But I think that's. I know from. As someone who makes movies, you have to have that faith. You have to believe that if you're, you know, if you're making something that is. That is. That is good and entertaining and truly interesting and passionate and all the. All those things, the people who need to see it are going to see it, you know.

[A]

What's your favorite phase of filmmaking at this point?

[C]

Everything but writing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Are you writing right now?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Even. Right? No, writing's. Writing's great. Anyone who writes, you know what I'm talking? Yeah. I love having written. Yeah, But. But I love it. I love. And prep is a pain in the ass, but you gotta do it. I mean, prep is where the movie's made, but I love shooting. I feel. There's no place I feel more comfortable in the world than on one of my own sets while we're shooting. It's bliss. I love editing. I love the editing process. I love the post process where all the technicians come in and start. Just what the last 3% of the process does to make it feel like an actual movie is always magic to me, every single time. And I love actually the phase with Wake Up Dead man that we're in. I love showing the movie and releasing it and having conversations about it and taking it around to audiences at festivals. And so. I don't know, man. I feel really. Yeah, I feel really, really, really blessed and lucky to be able to do what I do.

[A]

You know, Ryan, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. You mentioned that you've Been seeing a lot of great stuff this fall.

[C]

I have been seeing a lot of. I think there's a lot of great movies right now.

[A]

Feel free to recommend a few things.

[C]

I was going to. I love the Mastermind. I mean, you know, one battle after another is an all timer. But everyone is talking about that.

[A]

So we've been covering it here.

[C]

You guys have covered it very well. Yeah. I love that interview you guys did with. Thanks. Yeah, you did with Paul and Leo. Okay. What's something a little more far afield? I actually. I mean, I have friends who have movies coming out. Like Guillermo's Frankenstein movie is very personal. Edgar Wright's the Running man is a blast.

[A]

I just saw it. It's so fun.

[C]

It's so fun, man. And there's a movie that I don't know when it's coming out. I don't know if it's coming out until the beginning of next year or if it's this fall. But there's a movie called Pillion that I saw you see it?

[A]

Yes, I saw it at Telluride.

[C]

I saw it at a. Telluride. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was so funny and sweet.

[C]

So good.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And just like a great relationship drama.

[A]

Can you describe it a little bit to the audience?

[C]

Yeah. So it's a British film. It's basically about what's the name of the actor, the main actor, and not.

[A]

Skarsgrd, but he plays Harry Melish.

[C]

That sounds right. Yeah. Harry Melish, he's fantastic. And he plays kind of like a British nerd who. Who gets into a dom. Sub relationship with a hot biker played by Alexander Skarsgrd. And it's. It is. It's a movie that is very sexually explicit, but all the sex in it is not gratuitous. It's amazing the degree to which these sex scenes teach you the dynamics of this relationship and reveal character. Yes, it's very funny, it's very sweet. It's very human and I think just a really beautiful relationship love story. And the director, who I wasn't familiar with, he's made shorts, but this is his first feature and I'm forgetting his name. He was fantastic.

[A]

Do you think he's Harry Lytton? Is that his name?

[C]

Yeah, that sounds right. It was a really talented guy. Cause it's a really, really good movie.

[A]

I love that recommendation. I love that movie too. Ryan Johnson. Nice to see you. Thank you for doing this.

[C]

Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it.

[A]

Thank you to Rian Johnson. Thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders. For his work on this episode later this week. We are drafting again. It's been three years. It's time for 2022 with CR. Let's go. See you then.

[B]

Sa.