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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business.
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Without Internet, you wouldn't be able to hear my beautiful voice right now and businesses wouldn't be able to stay connected.
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The way they need.
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So what if I told you you can get free business Internet forever with Spectrum Business? Just add four mobile lines. Get business Internet, advanced wifi and security.
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Shield for free for life. No contracts, no added fees. All you have to do to find out how you can get free Spectrum business Internet forever@spectrum.com freeforlife.
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That's where you go. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by CarMax.
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When you buy a car with CarMax.
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You call the shots.
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You want to test drive every car in the lot. Want to shop while you watch the game. Want to match your car color to your sports team.
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Want to shop online, in store or both.
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It's your move every step of the way. And support from their helpful no pressure associates is there whenever you need. Want to drive CarMax, shop now@carmax.com.
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B
I'm Sean Fennessy.
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C
I'm Amanda Dobbins and this is the.
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B
Big Picture, a conversation show about Robert Redford. Tracy Letts is here. Hello. Hi. Hello. You're here to just be a podcaster. You're not here.
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A
That's all I do.
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B
You're not selling anything. No. You're not promoting anything. You're not here to talk about physical media. You're not here to talk about your life. You're here to talk about a filmmaker, an actor, a Hollywood legend. Why are you here?
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A
This is my job.
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B
Okay.
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A
My job is physical media collector, third chair on the big picture, bon vivant. And as a hobby, I occasionally write a play or appear in a film. But this is my job. I'm doing my job and I've done the work.
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B
Welcome back to work, Amanda. How are you feeling about the work today?
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C
I'm a bit nervous because before this recording, Tracy indicated to me that he watched multiple episodes of Robert Redford's television work.
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B
I have at least one I would like to discuss.
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C
I have been in the mines doing the Redford work. I have seen a lot of things, but I did not make it to the TV episodes. So I'm starting out daunted.
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B
Couple of good ones.
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A
Just a sampling. I did not see all of Red Robert Redford's TV work. Just a sampling.
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B
Okay, well, just that should give you some indication of what we're attempting to do here, which is we are going to talk about in celebration of the life and work of One of the biggest careers in Hollywood history. I think when he, right after he passed, we talked about it and I said, I can't think of someone who had actually a bigger impact on the industry at large in that era. In part because of the multiple different roles that he played, first as a star, then as a filmmaker, then as a sort of activist and shepherd for lots and lots and lots of great artists over the last 40 plus years of the Sundance Institute. So talking about him is challenging, but let's just try to have a general conversation at first. Do you remember the first time you saw him?
- [03:07]
A
Yeah, I was eight years old and I saw him in the Sting in the movie theater, 1973. I'm born in 65. Redford became a big star. The breakout was really Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid in 69. So when I was growing up, he was a movie star, maybe the biggest movie star, certainly one of the biggest movie stars. And I have a very clear memory of seeing the Sting in a packed movie theater on its initial release, when an audience collectively realized, oh, we've been conned too. Right? The great moment in that movie. And, yeah, it's stuck with me all, all these years. You know, I should also say in this year, in 2025, Diane Keaton, Gene Hackman, Robert Redford, all these people have died. And these were really. They were the movie stars of my youth. Now, Redford may be more of a star as opposed to kind of character actor that Gene Hackman was, or specific kind of movie star Diane Keaton was for a while, till she broke out and became even bigger. But they were people that we saw regularly on the big screen.
- [04:21]
B
So to us, Redford, when we were coming of age, was sort of like a part of the furniture of Hollywood. Do you remember the first time that you remember seeing him?
- [04:31]
C
So, yes, the first time I saw him was also in the Sting, though not in 1973. And it's because when I was studying the piano, I learned to play the entertainer. And so my parents were like, hey, we've got a film for you. I do also think that my mother was like, and it stars Paul Newman and Robert Redford. So it was presented to me in that context, and I was too young for it and thought it was boring, which is what happened with all of the films that my parents showed me. But I hooked into him. And then Even in the 90s, he was still playing handsome, older Golden Fox heartthrobs. So I guess he was part of the furniture. But my first memories after the Sting are Up Close and Personal and the Horse Whisperer and all of these things where he's slightly older but he's still got it. And the movies know that he still has it and are built around his appeal as an older leading man.
- [05:33]
B
Yeah. And he maintained that aura as a big star all the way through the 90s. I mean, every time he had a movie come out, it was cover of Entertainment Weekly and big deal in the trades. Whether it was a big hit ultimately or not, I can't remember for sure. But I have to assume that the Natural is the first time that I saw him as a baseball adult boy watching it on cable, more than likely at 5 or 6. And I gotta say, as a baseball adult boy, even at the time, I remember thinking, this guy's awfully old to be a ballplayer. And he was awfully old in that story. Even in the context of that story, he's awfully old. And yet that's very much a forever movie. That is a big part of his legacy in doing these halls of fame. You might think, oh, the Natural, that's a no brainer. It's got to go in. This is a. It's hard to. There's a. There's like 25 locks for the hall of Fame. This is going to be like incredibly.
- [06:29]
C
Difficult, including basically an entire decade. So that's going to be tricky as well. If we want to be, quote, representative.
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B
As opposed to the decade in which you first saw him. He's making some of the most fun, entertaining and in some cases deep movies of the 1970s.
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A
There's a run that starts with Butch and Sundance in 1969 and ends with all the President's Men in 76. And in that span of eight years, he made 13 films. He's the lead in all of those films. And you could construct the hall of Fame out of those 13 mov. You could select the best 10 movies from that 13 and have a Hall of Fame. Now obviously we'll go beyond that, but I mean, it was quite a run.
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B
It's pretty crazy. So what do you think? Make it. Do you think of him as a special actor? We know he's a special star. Right. He's handsome. He's got this incredible still charisma. But as an actor, how do you think about him?
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A
I think he's underrated. I think he's very deeply skilled. I think he was so smart about what he chose to do.
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B
Right.
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A
He just didn't put himself in position to fail very often as an actor. He was always taking on things he could do. There's always a kind of, well, I guess a reluctance off screen, but also a bit of reluctance on screen. They teach you as an actor, right? You have lots of marvelous things to say. You just choose not to say them. And I think that Redford really exemplified that. He often appears to be the smartest person on screen, and yet he is often silent, thoughtful, taciturn. I think he's a great actor. I think he probably had more range than he showed us, but he wasn't going to step outside of that range. Where it's not a question just of comfort, it's where he thought that he would be believable to an audience.
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B
It's interesting. You really have to know yourself to become a star. He really must have known himself because in the beginning of his career he does a lot of stage work and comedy. And then you look at the last 30 plus years of his career, there's very little of that. What do you like about him as an actor?
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C
Well, there is a confidence to him that is different from the typical I'm a leading man or I am an actor and I want this attention and I'm comfortable with. I'm seeking this out. To me, sometimes that is born out of some insecurity and you feel that acting is trying to get people to like you or validate your feelings. You know that there is like a hunger or a vulnerability can motivate a really good actor. And Robert Redford is just very clearly, I'm good. Like, I know where I am, I know myself. Whatever's going on is locked away in me. And there is that discomfort with being watched. But I also think he's incredibly good at being watched in a way that most people are not. Again, he understands the power that he commands and a lot of his films use it in smart ways, including with, you know, women just absolutely losing their minds. I will talk about the way we were at some point. I asked you guys both to prepare it. But that is a really incredible movie about Robert Redford and understands his appeal and the way that everyone looks at him in a way that shaped the rest of his career. So, I mean, I also obviously think of him as being just incredibly handsome. But he does and holds onto it for a long time and comfortable in that and like, uses it.
- [10:21]
B
He has an inordinate number of movies in which his character's name or nickname is in the title of the movie, which I think confers something about him. You know, he is the Sundance Kid. He is the natural. He is The Candidate, he is Jeremiah Johnson. Like, he is the Horse Whisperer. Like, it kind of recurs over and over again. And that is like, some of that is star management from a career perspective, where it's like, not only is my name above the title, but I'm the reason to go. And some of it is also this kind of, like, I think, really smart idea of myth making that he's interested in, where, like, he understands old Hollywood and he understands what he's capable of. Ethan Hawke was here actually earlier today, but it will have aired a few weeks earlier. And he repeated a story which many people repeated when Redford passed, about this conversation between Mike Nichols and Redford when he was casting the Graduate. And Mike Nichols had wanted Redford for who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? And Redford said, I don't want to do it.
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A
Had not liked the play.
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B
Yes. Did not like the play. And then he went back to Nichols because he wanted to do the Graduate. He wanted to play Benjamin Braddock. And Nichols asked him what it felt like to strike out with a girl. Want to be told no when you ask someone out on a date. And his reply was essentially, what do you mean, yeah? Because he never struck out because he looks like Robert Redford, because he is Robert Redford. And so at probably 14 years old, he had a kind of inborn confidence that allowed him to be somehow more strategic and maybe more comfortable in himself than I think, a lot of the actors that you're describing. Obviously, he didn't get the part of Benjamin and the Graduate, which is great. It worked out for everybody. And he and Nichols, they never got together.
- [12:13]
A
Well, barefoot in the park, on stage.
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B
That's right. But he's very unique because you would think, for example, Paul Newman, who we talked about earlier this year on the show, would be tremendously confident and was in some ways, but was also deeply.
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C
Insecure as a star and angry and.
- [12:30]
B
Struggled with addiction and had a lot of demons. And Redford, definitely, there's a darkness to him, and he definitely has some personal struggles, but, like, he didn't talk about those sorts of things very much. He clearly put it into the work, but didn't feel comfortable making it metaphorical as a celebrity. Lived in Utah, didn't live in Hollywood.
- [12:50]
A
He knew, again, he knew what worked. He had such self knowledge about what worked for how he could help tell the story. You know, good actors use as much of themselves as they can. You don't reach outside of yourself until you need to, until you have to. You know, there's some Great movie stars who have never. The performance is the same throughout. It's not the case with Robert Redford. There is in fact variety and really cramming for this podcast over the last few weeks. Really, the performance he gives in our souls at night is actually a very different performance than his Dan Rather. In truth, this is at the end of his career and you could certainly forgive him for just kind of mailing it in or. I'm just going to give you Robert Redford here. But he doesn't. I mean, there is a distinction between those characters. So that self awareness is not only one of the things that makes him such a compelling actor, but also the way he constructed such an amazing career.
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B
You wouldn't know this cause you haven't seen the film, but the same is true of his work in Endgame. You know, he really is giving a different kind of performance in that movie, you know.
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A
So I crammed really hard for this and I came up about six movies short.
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B
The exact same number I came up short. That's the.
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A
I came up about six movies short. And I'm afraid that the Avengers movies were.
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B
I can speak to that. Don't worry. Okay.
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A
That's the thing. I also knew it was like. I don't need to talk about it. These guys, these guys watch this movie every night.
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B
They.
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A
They know all about it.
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B
It's Amanda's favorite movie of the century, actually, which will be revealed later on this podcast.
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C
I remember everything that happened in it as well.
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B
Redford lived to 89 and he worked all the way through his life and worked quite a bit in the last 10 years of his life.
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A
I was really surprised at that.
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B
Yeah, he seemed to get reinvigorated for acting and also maybe needed some money. It's possible that both things are true. But there it's interesting because he has this remarkable run in the 70s, and then in the 80s he makes four movies, and then in the 90s he makes five movies. Now he's directing films at that time, but he really slows down on the star trajectory and seems more comfortable doing something once every two or three years. But in the 2000s, he's really reinvigorated. So I say that to say we have a lot of films to go through. Is there anything in particular that you want to cite about his life and career before we get into that conversation?
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A
Well, look, I don't know how much we're going to talk about things, some of the other aspects of his life and career, but the truth is we're having this star Conversation. All right. As an exercise, I say to you, make the list of the. Of the biggest movie stars of all time from. From 1 to 100, and each. Obviously, it's a very subjective list. Everybody. Right. Because there are too many variables in a list like that. You don't know if what somebody else finds sexy, where the sex appeal is. Where do you put somebody like Marcello Mastroianni, right. Who's a great movie star in some of the greatest movies ever made, but his movies never made any money in the United States. I mean, so there are all sorts of factors that you're balancing. But I promise you that Robert Redford is coming in on anybody's list in the top 20. Certainly in the top. Certainly in the top 20. Maybe in the top 10.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Maybe on Mount Rushmore.
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B
Right?
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A
He's there. He's there in that discussion. And we can have that discussion. And leave out Sundance, his producing credits, his activism, especially for environmental justice, Native American issues. You can leave all of that stuff. I mean, Sundance alone would put him right at the. Really at the top of his craft.
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B
At the top of dramatically altered independent film in America.
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C
I mean, I was going to ask whether Sundance is eligible as. Like, as a concept.
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B
We're already in so much pain trying to cut this down to 10. The idea of adding an institute and festival to the list makes my head hurt. Now I want to pitch an idea that I have. Okay, Now I'm gonna claim the credit and the title of this idea, but maybe it can be something that we share. But I wanted to do Sean's Corner, Sean's Alley, and that there are titles that go into this space that I know are not gonna make it into the hall of Fame. But I wanna open a little wing in the janitor's closet that's like, these movies are over here, and if you want them to be a part of the experience, you just need to use the right key and go in through that door, and that's where you can find.
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C
So Sundance and Shawn's.
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B
No, no, no, no. I'm not putting Sundance there. I mean, Sundance gets its own museum. That about Sundance and the activism as well. And he's fascinating in that way, too, because he is sort of George Clooney before George Clooney, where people in the 80s were like, you should run for president. And he was repulsed by that idea, but he represented something, I think, ideologically and emotionally about the country, that he was purposefully trying to communicate an idea of decency in the world in his characters and in the work that he did when he spoke publicly. But he also was a tough guy. He was a hard guy. And there are a lot of stories about working with him over the years where he's very specific and very intentional and not always easy to work with. And so you can also read a lot about the ways in which he made those decisions and earned this gravitas and legendary status. Fascinating dude.
- [18:25]
A
Really fascinating, dude. I don't know that I fully understand Sean's corners.
- [18:29]
C
Don't worry if it's over there. You were gesturing to, like, a little space.
- [18:32]
B
It's right over here.
- [18:33]
C
Yeah, this is the little alley.
- [18:35]
A
Do we have access to Sean's corner?
- [18:37]
B
Well, if you're nice to me in this conversation, maybe I'll lend you a key.
- [18:42]
C
Well, do you remember for Newman, we were so overwhelmed by the amount of work that we invented? I think that it was a blue.
- [18:48]
B
Yes.
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C
And each person gets a blue. Would you like to institute that for that?
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B
I think we should have three blues. Three individual personal picks that exist outside of the green delineation in the hall of fame that you recommend.
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A
Yellow. And then when we go back through the yellows, we can. That's my blue. Now can we share a blue? What if some of us have a blue, but we decide it's not going.
- [19:08]
B
To hall of fame? We certainly can.
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C
I guess we could share it, but that maybe we could strategize. This isn't a draft. We're not competing against each other.
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B
Of course not.
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C
So then we can. How do you feel about wealth?
- [19:19]
A
I feel great about it. I have to remind myself this is all made up.
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C
Right.
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B
You know, I do, too. That's unfortunately, the problem with my life. A couple of quick notes about his career before we get into it. Only nominated for one best actor academy Award. That was for the film that you saw in movie theaters, the Sting. Honestly, a very strange nomination relative to the history of his career. Is he even the lead of that movie?
- [19:43]
C
They really, really liked the Sting.
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B
They did.
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C
They really liked it.
- [19:46]
B
He did win best director in his career. We will get to the film for which he won. He was nominated once more for best director and also nominated for best Picture. One year, one of his films won best picture, the Academy Awards. He was given an honorary Academy Award in 2002. But, you know, he's not celebrated in the same way that we think of the great screen icons where they get two or three academy Award wins for their performances. He didn't have that reputation, and honestly, critics were not really super fond of him. They often criticized him as being very wooden and internal and quiet and very full of himself. That was something you find in a lot of criticism about his movies.
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A
It's a little strange because he sure made those people a lot of goddamn money. One of the amazing things going through these movies is to look at the box office. Even movies that you go, well, that was a failure. That was marginal. And you go, oh, no, the Great Gatsby was actually one of the biggest hits of that year. I mean, he made people a lot of money in this business.
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B
Yeah, that's an interesting movie to talk about, too, in terms of his Persona at that time and how he pivots away from that. But I don't know, should we jump in? Should we start talking about films?
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A
Let's grade it. Let's grade it.
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B
You know, he started in the theater.
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A
He did.
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B
And you know anything about his work in the theater? Anything notable that you want to cite?
- [21:06]
A
Well, I know that his first play was Tall Story on Broadway, which was written by Lindsay and Krauss and directed by Joshua Logan. And they got him because he could play basketball. He needed real basketball players. But he was only 5, 10, but he looked credible dribbling a basketball across the court. And then they made a movie of Tall Story, which is not a memorable thing, but he's uncredited in that film. His first movie with Jane Fonda, not his last.
- [21:41]
C
He.
- [21:43]
B
When he talks about his past, he has a kind of remove from the idea of wanting to become an actor. He talked about how when he was a teenager, he made fun of actors, he made fun of the theater. And then he got to be older and saw himself as a more sophisticated artist type, moved to France, studied painting and art, and then realized how broke he was going to be and came back to the United States and California and really started working, spent time in New York, worked in the theater, then started booking TV jobs. And he pretty steadily works in episodic television for four or five years. And Amanda has not seen any of this work, but you've seen some of it.
- [22:23]
A
I saw in the Presence of My Nemes, which is a Playhouse 90. It's actually the last Playhouse 90. It was the last episode of that TV series. And it's written by Rod Serling and it's directed by. Name escapes me. Fielder Cook. Directed by Fielder Cook. And he's in there with some heavy hitters. He's in there with Charles Lawton and Arthur Kennedy, and he's playing a German soldier. He's actually doing a German accent. That was the Conceit at the time, right. He's doing German accented English. He falls in love with the Jewish girl in the Warsaw ghetto and has a pangs of guilt, you know, and he's. I don't think anybody ever really did that. German soldiers fall in love with Jewish girls and have pangs of guilt. I don't think that really happened. But that's the conceit of the TV show anyway. Written by Rod Serling.
- [23:19]
B
Speak for the entirety of the German infantry.
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C
That's the side you want to jump in on.
- [23:25]
B
Not defending anyone. I'm just. Never say never.
- [23:28]
A
And I have to say it's a credible performance. He has some good scenes with George MacCready. George MacCready, the bad guy from Paths of Glory. And they have some great scenes. George MacCready, a really bad Nazi. I mean, the other side of the coin of Redford's Nazi. And they have some good scenes together. It's good. It's a credible performance. Like I say, he's in there with some real players. By the way, that same year, he's in the Case of the Treacherous Toupee. That's his Perry Mason episode. And I have to say, that's a real dud. You can miss that. He's also.
- [24:00]
C
It's a great title.
- [24:02]
A
He's also in the Iceman Cometh, directed by Sidney Lumet and Jason Robards, who was our foremost interpreter of o' Neill and Redford played Don Parrott in that, which is a fun part, relatively speaking. An Iceman Cometh. And so he's doing real. The stuff he's doing on TV is real stuff.
- [24:27]
B
One thing that's probably fairly easy to track down for listeners of the show that I always like is he's in a very memorable and excellent episode of the Twilight Zone called Nothing in the Dark. I don't know. Have you ever seen this episode?
- [24:39]
A
I did. I watched it in preparation for this. For this podcast.
- [24:42]
C
Yes.
- [24:43]
B
So not written by Rod Serling. This episode's written by George Clayton Johnson.
- [24:46]
A
But he got the job because he had done the previous Rod Serling script and Rod Serling remembered him when they were casting this.
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B
And in this episode, he plays a man who arrives at the door of an old woman who has been evading death most of her life. And she has a great deal of paranoia. And he is the voice on the other side asking to come in. And he's asking to come in because he needs help. He needs something from her. And it is just this two hander between these two characters. I Haven't seen it in some time, but I remember him being. I don't. I guess I can spoil this 60 year old episode is he's death and he's come to that, Trey. And that's the big reveal at the end of the episode. But it is like. I mean, I'm sure I saw this when I was a teenager and discovering the Twilight Zone, but I was mesmerized and mesmerized by him and his kind of serpentine charm in this part. He's really great. And you could tell in 1964, this guy's got it. This guy's got the juice.
- [25:42]
A
He's really good. It's a really good episode of the Twilight Zone directed by Lamont Johnson, who went on to direct some good movies as well. I also saw First Class Muliak, which is an episode of Route 66, which is also a bit of a dude. Okay, it's too bad, but Martin Balsam is in it. Who he would cast in all the Presidents Men a few years later. Oh, he had also auditioned to be the lead in Route 66, one of the leads. And Martin Milner got the part, so they remembered him and brought him back to be a guest star on the show.
- [26:17]
B
Memorable Sliding Door. If he had gotten that part, what movies would he have not appeared in? Let's talk about them.
- [26:22]
C
Yes. Because this is a movie podcast.
- [26:24]
B
Yes.
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C
Well, I'm glad you guys watched them. Tv.
- [26:27]
A
Wow. This is what it's like. Well, he got judged. I just got judged.
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B
If you did the work, if you want for a chair, this is what it's like.
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C
You, I respect. He's just like talking about the Twilight Zone again.
- [26:38]
B
This is the greatest television show of all time. You already mentioned the uncredited part, so we won't talk about that. There's only one incredibly small early film that is happening while he's doing this stage work called War Hunt, which I have not seen, but Amanda says she has seen.
- [26:53]
C
I watched it for this podcast.
- [26:56]
B
Great.
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C
Because I also did my homework and it was a film. It was fine. He is a soldier in the Korean War and this time he is once again the good American soldier, kind of pitted against this psychotic, literally American soldier who goes out at night just killing people.
- [27:17]
A
Is that John Saxon?
- [27:18]
C
Yes.
- [27:19]
B
Yeah.
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C
And Sidney Pollock is also in this film as an actor, which is where they met Bradford. He's. He's fine. He's good. It's sort of surprising that this is a 1962 film and it is more anti war than I associate with Hollywood movies. At that time. So I give it credit for that. It's not, like, hugely nuanced, but that's okay. And. And I mean, Redford is. Is a side part, so that's red.
- [27:49]
B
Do you have any warhunt thoughts?
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A
No.
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B
Okay. 1965, inside Daisy Clover.
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A
I'm going to back up a little bit to Barefoot in the park, which he does on stage in 1963.
- [27:59]
C
Great.
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A
So he's got a film. Just dipping his toe in a film career, he's working in tv, and he gets a chance to do Barefoot in the park by Neil Simon, directed by Mike Nichols. A very slight piece. I know this because I did Barefoot in the park for four months touring Norway and Sweden high schools when I was 20 years old.
- [28:24]
C
What time of year?
- [28:26]
A
What.
- [28:27]
C
What time of year was I touring in Norway and Sweden?
- [28:30]
A
Yes, that was the fall and winter.
- [28:31]
B
And you played Paul.
- [28:32]
A
I did. I did.
- [28:33]
B
Wow. At 20 years old?
- [28:35]
A
I did, yeah.
- [28:38]
C
Scandinavian winter, I think.
- [28:40]
B
So he's a lawyer.
- [28:40]
A
It's been a long time. Forty years, in fact, since I did it. But he does it with Elizabeth Ashley in the original production. Now, Mark Harris wrote a book about Mike Nichols, and he interviewed Robert Redford for his book. And then after Mr. Redford passed, Mark Harris wrote some stuff he didn't put in the book, and he put it on his social media account. May I do a little short reading?
- [29:05]
B
Please, Please do.
- [29:06]
A
So this is Robert Redford talking to Mark Harris. We tried out in New Haven. Now, I was not sure about my own self at that time. So when I was called out to do the play, part of me was resisting everything. Everything. My thought was, I'm going to show everyone why I shouldn't be in this play. When we opened in New Haven, I basically just laid down. I said, okay, I'm going to be so bad, they're going to get rid of me. So I got terrible reviews. Elizabeth Ashley did well. They all loved her, and she was great. But my perversity had everyone down on me. I thought, well, this is good. Now they'll replace me. Mike took me to lunch and said, look, I think I know what you're doing, and it's not going to work. No matter how bad you try to behave, I'm not going to replace you. So I said, well, I'm now going to get worse. I decided I'm not going to let him win this one. I'm going to show him I'm going to be so bad he's got to replace me. So then we went to Washington and The reviews were even worse. He took me to lunch and he said, pretty funny. You might as well give it up because it's not going to work. So the next night, I guess it was. I don't know what town it was. I laid down again, and he then told me something really interesting. He said, look, why don't you look at it this way? I think you're somebody that probably has some secrets that you keep hidden. And I wasn't aware of that. He said, why don't you search yourself? Search for the things you hide. What if you use that for the character, the idea that you carry secrets around? I said, oh, okay. So that night when I went on, I didn't say my lines. I just whistled. The audience didn't know what the fuck was going on, what in the hell was going on. And I just whistled and whistled and whistled to a point where I suddenly felt so comfortable that I was doing what I wanted to do in such a weird way. I suddenly came alive. From that point on, I came up to par. I just thought that was an interesting story, given what we're talking about, his withholding nature.
- [31:03]
B
I think it also speaks very much to Mike Nichols superpowers and why he was such a gifted director, which was not because he knew where to put the camera or how to light a scene, but because he could do that. There was a psychological power. Robert Redfree definitely had some secrets, and he's kind of like exploring those secrets in all of his films. Inside Daisy Clover. Not the most secretive movie I've ever seen. No. A movie that announces itself in many ways, loudly and without.
- [31:30]
A
Did you watch Inside Daisy Clover?
- [31:31]
C
I did, yeah.
- [31:32]
B
What'd you think?
- [31:34]
C
I have to be honest. Robert Redford looks handsome in a tux. Whatever. He seems somewhat miscast, and that's fine. And then I just spent my whole time being like, so what was up with Natalie Wood? Just what was going on there?
- [31:50]
A
Well, she's just very miscast, sure.
- [31:52]
C
Yeah. And very beautiful. But I just more meant like, Natalie Wood was one of the great movie stars of the early 60s, and I never understood it.
- [32:02]
A
She and Robert Redford went to the same high school together, and she had been kind of key in encouraging him and his acting career. Van Nuys, right? I think they were Van Nuys High School.
- [32:12]
B
Yes.
- [32:13]
A
And they have more than one appearance in movies together.
- [32:15]
B
There's some very amusing stuff about how Redford, with no disrespect, would often undermine his own access to a certain level. Like Dory Sher, the famous Hollywood executive His son was one of his best friends. He was very connected growing up in Van Nuys to a lot of people in the business. So he was not some kid from nowhere. He's a California guy. He's an LA guy. And his relationship with Natalie Wood, his friendship with Natalie Wood helps him a lot. This is not the last time they worked together. This movie is a pretty big bungle, in my opinion. It's meant to be this kind of Judy Garland esque story about a young girl, a tomboy, who gets plucked out of obscurity to become a big Hollywood star by a Hollywood mogul played by Christopher Plummer one year after the Sound of Music. And Redford plays essentially the match that is made for her to become engaged and become a star in the movie. The character is supposed to be gay, but Redford resisted that in the production of the film. And so you get this mishmash of like. It's unclear what the nature of their relationship is even supposed to be. Anyway, interesting movie. Robert Mulligan directed it. I think it's the first movie he made after To Kill a Mockingbird, I think it is. And produced by Alan Pakula, who we'll come back to, who's very important. But you can see them forging at least. And this is when Pikula was working mostly as a producer, mostly for Mulligan, I think in the 60s. Definitely not going in.
- [33:43]
A
No, I don't think Mr. Redford is bad in this film. I think he's. It's the part that Kevin Kline would play 20 years later. Right. The florid flights of fancy. And, you know, as somebody said about Kevin Kline, it's like Magic School is always part of the backstory. So I don't think that Mr. Redford's bad in it, but no, the movie doesn't work. And the. The decision not to worry about the period, even though the movie is very clearly set in the 1930s and yet nothing about it looks like the 30s sounds like the 30s. The movie clips, the song she sings, none of it seems like the 1930s. It's weird.
- [34:26]
B
Very odd choice.
- [34:27]
C
Yeah, I was baffled throughout.
- [34:30]
B
I have not seen this next film Situation Hopeless but Not Serious, which is a comedy that was based on a novel written by Robert Shaw. The Robert Shaw.
- [34:44]
A
That's the only interesting thing about it, I think.
- [34:47]
B
I mean, it does star Alec Guinness. Redford is the third or fourth lead. He doesn't have a huge part in the film. It's not good.
- [34:55]
A
Didn't watch it?
- [34:56]
C
Oh, I watched it. Alec Guinness was funny, but it's, you know, it's the Alec Guinness show and they're kind of the unwitting, like rubes who are the subject of his plotting. And it's. I guess it's not that everyone's fine. No one's in danger, really.
- [35:13]
B
And was this film made some years earlier and then it was shelved and then released later? Right, that's the story. I think so, yeah. Well, that's definitely not going in. No. Let's talk about 1966's no.
- [35:23]
A
Yes.
- [35:23]
B
1966'S this property is condemned, which is a Tennessee Williams play adapted. We return once again to Natalie Wood.
- [35:31]
A
Tennessee Williams tried to take his name off of it.
- [35:34]
B
You can see why.
- [35:35]
C
Yeah.
- [35:36]
B
So interesting that he starts his career in this fashion as a film actor and is in a handful of duds.
- [35:42]
A
They are some duds. Yeah. Screenplay by Francis Ford Coppola.
- [35:45]
B
Yes. In part.
- [35:48]
C
Like eight other people. Right. Which is, again, part of the problem.
- [35:51]
B
Yeah. They really had to hammer down this Filet o Fish.
- [35:55]
A
And it's his first collaboration with Sidney Pollock as actor, director.
- [36:00]
B
Right. And did Pollock come in late? What is the story? Isn't there a story? Was there always on this? Originally? This is also a strange movie about a woman working as a lady of the night. And a representative from the railroads comes along.
- [36:16]
C
Sure. Yeah.
- [36:17]
B
And he's got some big ideas and she's got some big ideas, and then.
- [36:20]
C
And then her mom also has some big ideas.
- [36:22]
B
Yes. Well, it is Tennessee Williams, after all. There is some existentialism in this story.
- [36:26]
A
I didn't watch it. Did you guys watch it?
- [36:28]
B
I did.
- [36:29]
C
And again, this is. I think I watched it on the. In the same Jag where I watched the other Natalie Wood film. And I was just kind of like, I don't really understand, like, what are we doing?
- [36:39]
B
You know, I did want to ask you about this. There is this stretch of Tennessee Williams adaptations from like, roughly the mid-50s through late 60s.
- [36:49]
A
Right.
- [36:50]
B
Some of his best known work. A lot. Some more obscure work. Very few of them are very good. Why do you think that? Obviously, Streetcar is Streetcar. Right. But, like, why do you think that it was so hard to translate Williams to the screen?
- [37:03]
A
Well, first of all, the poetry and the adult nature of the plays, they were often cut up versions of themselves. Right. They didn't. You know, that's not what actually happens in Streetcar Name Desire. And Tennessee took the check. He always took the check. They would cut him a check and he would take the check and he didn't give A damn about the movies. That's ultimately what happened. He didn't care if they made bad movies based on his plays. The plays were more important. But Williams himself was an important national figure. I mean, people understood that Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller were. Were. They were tops. And Williams was a. He was a very present cultural commentator.
- [37:50]
B
And the.
- [37:51]
A
The adult nature of. Of those plays was. Could be kind of scandalous, but the movies always left the interesting stuff out. So, yeah, it's a lot of. I've not to name drop. I actually had a conversation with Warren Beatty about this very thing when I was working with Annette Benning and we were doing an Arthur Miller play and we talked about this and Warren, who had appeared in one of these Williams adaptations, talked about his frustration that Tennessee just took the check and walked away and didn't exercise any kind of creative control over the thing. In other words, this property is condemned. Had to be so bad that Williams was actually moved to say, I'm taking my fucking name off of this. It's so bad.
- [38:38]
B
Yeah. It's so funny though, because it is a sort of rite of passage for all of those screen stars of that time. You mentioned Beatty, Paul Newman made a couple of these movies. Redford obviously made them. Brando kind of sets the template in many ways, and most of them just do not work at all. It's an interesting little footnote.
- [38:54]
A
Yeah.
- [38:55]
B
Would not recommend this movie. Okay. 1966. The Chase. I know that you're interested in this film because you wrote about it on letterboxd. I did.
- [39:00]
A
Wow. Look at you reading my letterboxd reviews.
- [39:03]
B
Well, I love your work.
- [39:06]
A
I like the chase. I had not seen it before and I find it pretty compelling. I. I mean, it doesn't work top to bottom, I don't think. I think there are issues with the thing, but I think that the. The Horton Foot source material.
- [39:24]
B
What?
- [39:24]
A
What? The movie concerns itself with the idea of racism and fascism in this small community. The community representative of the larger community. Right. And that Marlon Brando plays. He's John Proctor. He's the good guy at the center of this community who is going to fight these forces, fight the community.
- [39:50]
B
For.
- [39:51]
A
Rule of law, for what he knows to be right. And obviously it's such a murderer's row of actors in this thing. Marlon Brando, Jane Fonda, eg. Marshall, Angie Dickinson, Janice Rule. The great underrated Richard Bradford, Robert Duvall.
- [40:08]
B
I mean, did you watch this?
- [40:10]
C
I did.
- [40:11]
B
So with respect, I found it very dull.
- [40:14]
C
Me too. Well, when Jane Fonda is on screen, I'm very excited.
- [40:19]
B
I liked Janice Rule as well. She's very vivacious and stuff.
- [40:22]
C
Brando, he's kind of.
- [40:23]
B
I actually thought he was a little miscast.
- [40:25]
C
Yeah.
- [40:25]
A
Oh, man. I thought Brando was. I just think he's so worlds beyond the other people in. I mean, just in terms of. He's just at the forefront of what he's doing as an actor, I think.
- [40:37]
B
I think when I think of him as an actor, I think of him as someone reckoning with moral gray. And he's so direct and forthright and clean in this. At least his character is in this movie, that it didn't. He seemed a little oddly out of place in this thing. But I will say Redford is very interesting in this movie. He's really kind of flashing, like, action star chops in a way, because he's an escaped convict and he's on the run. And the film is kind of taking place in bifurcated way where we're seeing this community reacting to this escaped convict. There's all this talk about Bubber. Bubber this and Bubber that. And then when we see him, he's just trying to survive, and he's leaping across trains and running through open fields. And you can kind of see the guy who would become one of the more virile, physical, you know, sportsmen of Hollywood. Right. And he's pretty good in this.
- [41:28]
C
The scene where he finally makes it and he and Fonda meet up, like they're in a junkyard or something. And it's communicated what she's been doing while he's gone. She's really good in that and, like, kind of takes the. You can see the emotion. But he also, like, takes the revelation on its. On its face. And they, like. They clearly have something.
- [41:49]
A
There's a problem at the center of it, which is, why is he trying to get back there when as soon as he gets back there, he says, I've got to get out.
- [41:55]
C
Yeah, I mean, it's a great point.
- [41:57]
A
Strange choice, what that's all about. James Fox is in this movie, and he's interviewed on the special features on the indicator disc, which is an excellent rendition.
- [42:11]
B
Do you have that one, Amanda?
- [42:12]
C
Yeah, I do. And I got you a second for Christmas.
- [42:15]
B
Thanks.
- [42:15]
A
James Fox, in his interview, talks about when they were gathering to do this movie. First of all, they're all in awe of Brando. They're all just bowing down to Brando. But beyond that, he mentions. We knew. We were told that Robert Redford was the next big thing. We were told. We knew about him when he showed up that he was going to be a big deal.
- [42:41]
B
Well, this is really the last thing that he does that is kind of modestly received. Everything after this becomes sort of a big deal in various ways. But this is also notable because it's the last movie Arthur Penn makes before he makes Bonnie and Clyde. And that is also a movie that basically changes the future of Hollywood. And Redford is operating right alongside that shift. So the next film he makes is Barefoot in the park, an adaptation directed by Gene Sachs starring Jane Fonda. Again, they work together again. I'm just not a big fan of this material. I don't think it's the best. Neil Simon.
- [43:15]
A
It's so light. It just floats away. It's just.
- [43:18]
B
It's about a couple that lives on a sixth floor walk up. I've lived on a sixth floor floor walk up. It's not pleasant. I'm not sure if that's the premise of a film, but I could, you know newlyweds trying to make their way in the world.
- [43:30]
C
I think it's charming.
- [43:31]
B
They have great characters.
- [43:32]
C
I don't think it needs to go on the list, but it is very charming.
- [43:35]
B
No, the chase is not going in Barefoot in the Park. I don't think you're not gonna make a case.
- [43:40]
A
Not at all.
- [43:40]
B
Okay.
- [43:41]
A
It's the third time now that Robert Redford and Jane Fonda have worked together.
- [43:45]
B
Yes, but not long.
- [43:46]
A
Elizabeth Ashley replaced by Jane Fonda for the film. Elizabeth. Elizabeth Ashley had a film career. I think Elizabeth Ashley has written about. She felt that she was badly behaved during the show and maybe that had something to do with her not getting the film.
- [44:01]
B
She did. They did not necessarily click. So there's a two year gap. And then we get Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in 1969, which is one of the greatest movies ever made.
- [44:12]
C
That is agreed.
- [44:14]
A
Automatic green.
- [44:15]
B
I'm not sure what level of conversation anyone would like to have about it. I frequently, frequently just if I'm feeling low, just pull up the two minute clip of them arguing on the cliff before deciding to jump. It is one of my favorite movie moments ever.
- [44:31]
C
It's so good.
- [44:31]
B
And it is largely because of Redford. And it's. I just want to say about this that I don't know that he ever specifically did a part like this ever again. That this very fine grained combination of overconfidence and humor. He didn't really lean on that note too often, but he's really, really good at it. And this movie obviously works because of their chemistry.
- [44:53]
C
But it's a movie that makes me smile and it's very reactive in that moment, which I don't really associate with the rest of his career. He's usually setting the tone, but he and Newman are really going off each other. I also, in addition to that clip, the clip when they finally make it to Bolivia and he's just wandering around with all the goats yelling. I rewatched that again this morning. Just like, I just need to get in the vi. Really, really funny.
- [45:16]
B
He doesn't yell very much in movies. You know, this is a very unusual kind of thing for him, but he's really wonderful in this movie. This kicks off our relationship with George Roy Hill, which we will come back to as we go through the list. Any. Any Sundance Kid thoughts?
- [45:28]
A
Look, it's just so self evident. Again, like you said, there's not that much to say about it. If you don't like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, something's wrong with you.
- [45:36]
B
Probably don't like movies.
- [45:38]
A
You know, it is very much of its time in that it has a kind of 1969 pop sensibility about it, right. Suddenly there's a Burt Bacharach song playing in the middle of it. And even Mr. Redford writing about the movie or speaking about the movie said, I thought it was a mistake. I thought this is all wrong for this movie.
- [45:57]
B
When you watch the movie now, it does feel out of place, that particular segment of the movie. But it's one of those things where sometimes an accepted piece of art, even in all of the attending cliches, still transcends. You know, you can still look at the Mona Lisa and admire it. Even though you've seen it reproduced on paper plates, there's still something kind of profound about it beyond its commercialization. I think this is one of those movies.
- [46:22]
A
Well, it also Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid coming when it does. Right? The western has been such an important part of movie history to this point, but it's being recontextualized a little bit right through the. The spaghetti westerns that have come back in the 60s. Peck and Paw is right there in the middle of this. And there is kind of a shift in the. In the consuming popular culture from the rural to the urban taking place around this time, right. All the rural shows, all the westerns get canceled. All the rural comedies, Green Acres, Beverly Hillbillies, all that stuff it all gives. They just wipe all that stuff out and they replace it with all in the Family and Good Times will no longer be relevant.
- [47:08]
B
As Gail Scott Heron said, there you go.
- [47:11]
A
So it's now there was still an appetite for rural material going throughout the 70s, and Redford was somebody who was able to dip in and out of. To go from urban to rural. And also, I think Manola Dargis made this point in her appraisal of Redford in the New York Times. He's so comfortable with a male co star and with the female co star. That's not the case with a lot of movie stars. Some of them we think of primarily as.
- [47:44]
B
Right.
- [47:44]
A
You don't think of a lot of the. The male stars that Richard Gere gets placed with. Right. He's mostly opposite females in the movies he makes. And then you could think of a host of actors who are more comfortable with male co stars. Redford was able to shift back and forth fairies.
- [47:59]
B
Are you more comfortable with male or female co stars?
- [48:03]
C
Is there another woman that we could have here? Can anyone find.
- [48:06]
B
I don't see any here in the building today, unfortunately. 1969. Tell them Willie Boy is here, which is a movie I had not seen until yesterday.
- [48:14]
C
Okay. How did you track it down?
- [48:17]
B
I own it.
- [48:17]
C
You. Congratulations.
- [48:19]
B
So you could have. You could have called me up and could have called up the lending library.
- [48:23]
C
I. I Googled. Was not available on streaming. And then I said, okay, I'm gonna leave it to the High council.
- [48:31]
B
I assume you've seen this film.
- [48:32]
A
I also own it, and I also watched it for this podcast shot before Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, released.
- [48:39]
B
In the same year. And interestingly, he's essentially playing the Brando part in the chase, where he is the moral sheriff searching for the escaped man who's played by Robert Blake in this film as a Native American.
- [48:52]
A
Yeah. Some really grotesque brown faces.
- [48:54]
B
Pretty weird. The film is directly cool that you.
- [48:57]
C
Guys both own this.
- [48:59]
B
Well, we're completists. Abraham Polonski, who was blacklisted, only directed two films in his career. This is the first film he made after 25 years. And I thought it was a pretty interesting movie.
- [49:11]
A
I did, too.
- [49:13]
B
I think it's a little bit rickety in the staging, but the performances are pretty good. I think Redford carries the movie pretty well.
- [49:22]
A
I agree.
- [49:23]
B
And Katherine Ross as well.
- [49:27]
A
Egregious brown face. Egregious. And Robert Blake was always a compelling actor until he murdered people.
- [49:35]
B
Whatever the hell he was. He was. He has a great screen presence, you know, and he does. He's the titular Willy boy in this movie. This is definitely not going in, but I think if you like Redford, it's worth checking out for the completest.
- [49:46]
C
You guys are just absolutely veering through a lot on that one. Good job.
- [49:50]
B
Just talking truth. Yeah, just talking truth.
- [49:52]
A
Based on the true story, too.
- [49:53]
B
That's right. Okay. 1969. Downhill racer. Now, I'll foreground this by saying this is one of my favorite movies ever made.
- [50:00]
C
It's really cool.
- [50:02]
B
I think that this is an utterly unique film. And I think it also speaks immensely to. To what Redford is interested in and how he made things happen. It's his first movie with Michael Richie. They go on to make a few more movies together. It's a film about a downhill racer, a skier competing in the Olympics. His coach is Gene Hackman, and he is a. Is it James Salter who wrote it? I think it's James Salter, the great novelist. And it's about drive and ambition and turning off yourself to the world in an effort to achieve what you want. Now, you might say, how sad, Sean, that this is so interesting to you. But it is very interesting to me because it's one of the only good movies, in my opinion, about how athletes actually are. And I wrote about it 15 years ago about how much I liked it and how there's very few movies about winter sports. That's just not something you see very often. But I'm not gonna make the case that this is one of his ten essential films. But it is a film. If I were to build an alley, I would consider placing this in my eye.
- [51:05]
C
It doesn't need to be locked alone in your.
- [51:09]
B
I want to hear your thoughts. I want you. If you want to celebrate it. Wonderful.
- [51:12]
A
It's green for me. It's completely green.
- [51:14]
C
I think so, too. I mean, it's.
- [51:15]
B
That's really interesting. I mean, I'm very heartened to hear something.
- [51:19]
C
It's an amazing movie about, like. Yes, about sports, but also just about ambitious, successful people and kind of how you have to be a psychopath. It is an amazing, like, feat of filmmaking. And just. They are there. They are skiing. I believe they're mostly in Austria, but they are in the. In. In Europe and filming through several actual skiing races in the late 60s. So it's sort of like F1, but in 1969. And it looks beautiful.
- [51:49]
B
It's a good comparison, actually. They're somewhat similar. This Daniel Racer is a far superior movie, but it's similar kind of framework, but.
- [51:54]
C
But just in that they used to end that. You get all of these very exciting, beautiful shots of people going down these mountains. It's beautiful to watch. And then it's a cool movie for Redford to do because he is already engaging with. He's not a very likable character in this. Or if he is likable, it's because he's the protagonist. And how much you want to root for him is really what the film is about in a lot of ways. But for this early in his career to take on something that is ugly, that. Spoiler alert doesn't get. The girl that even in the moment of triumph is portrayed as a pretty. Like it's a petty triumph at the end because you're waiting for the other guy to go down the hill and they have that moment of recognition. So it's a cool move for him. And a cool like demonstrates an early understanding. Understanding of who he is, what his career is, what he's good at, and how to turn it on its head to do something interesting.
- [53:05]
A
Totally badass. I'm down with it. All the way green.
- [53:08]
B
I fucking love it. This is going to be really hard, though, guys. If we're putting the downhill racer in, this is going to be hard. Okay. Let's just leave it at that. Other than to say the final point you made is the one. The case I would have made for. For it is this is the movie where he determines what his screen Persona is, which is that. That taciturn quality that you described. He really carves it out here. Okay, next movie. 1970. Little Foss and Big Halsey. This is a Sydney J. Fury movie about two motorcycle racers. Yeah, it's not very good, in my opinion.
- [53:38]
A
No, I thought it was better than I thought it was going to be.
- [53:42]
B
Okay.
- [53:43]
A
I had not seen it before and I. And I kind of enjoyed it. And one of the things I really enjoyed about it is Redford's performance. He embraces a more animal side of his nature and of his sexuality in this movie. He does most this movie without his shirt on. He's a son of a bitch in the HUD tradition, and I think it's one of the loosest Redford performances. He's very. He doesn't really exhibit a lot of that clenched quality that we see in a lot of other movies. He seems very loose. He seems very free. He seems like he's improving. He seems like he's enjoying playing the son of a bitch. He said himself it was the best script he had ever read.
- [54:34]
B
Charles Eastman.
- [54:35]
A
It was one of the few scripts at the time published in paperback form. Charles Eastman was the brother of the screenwriter, the woman who wrote Five Easy Pieces. They were Brother and sister. And so there's a part of me when I see little Foss and Big Halsey. There's just. There was, at that time a kind of existential movie, usually rural men and cars, men and women and motorcycles. Even Downhill Racer somewhat falls into this category, and it includes movies like Electro Glide in Blue and Five Easy Pieces and Cockfighter. And they are kind of dreamy. They're not. There's no plot. There's no story to follow.
- [55:22]
B
Men want to go fast and get away from their problems. Yeah.
- [55:25]
A
Yeah.
- [55:25]
B
And it's a great subgenre of film.
- [55:27]
A
Zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance approach. I found it compelling in that regard. I'm not at all advocating for it to go into the hall of Fame, but I was delighted to find something I liked better than I thought I was going to like.
- [55:40]
B
Appreciate your advocacy. Red. 1972. Jeremiah Johnson. So this is a reunion with Sidney Pollock. This is a Mountain man survival film. A film that Sidney Pollock staked his career and finances on. Right.
- [55:58]
A
Mortgaged his house.
- [56:00]
B
He felt he absolutely needed to do this with Redford. Redford, you would not think would be the right fit, per se, for this part. This has become for two reasons, I think one of the more iconic movies of the 70s. One, it kind of kicks off this Mountain man revival idea, and two, it's becoming a legendary Internet meme.
- [56:18]
C
Yeah.
- [56:19]
B
The nod in this film that apparently.
- [56:22]
A
A lot of people thought was Zach Galifianakis for the longest time.
- [56:24]
C
I did for a long time. I learned that before preparing for this podcast. I want to be clear. I've known that for several years, but the first two years of the meme, I thought it was Zach Galifianakis.
- [56:34]
B
This is a movie I actually haven't seen in some time, so I don't know if I can speak specifically to it. I remember liking it and not loving it, but you can see why it's a big hit. I think I have a lot of thoughts about him and Pollock and what they do for each other and what they don't do for each other. And I do think that sometimes they can indulge the dullest parts of their personalities. And I look at some of the movies that they made, and then I look at some of the movies they made with other filmmakers and other actors, and their comfort actually maybe, like, works against them at times, or they're more comfortable being patient together, which I respect, but doesn't always make my favorite movies. Nevertheless, I do recognize that this is a very iconic film, and it's very well liked. So what do you guys say?
- [57:19]
A
What are your thoughts on Jeremiah Johnson?
- [57:21]
C
You know, in the same way that you described, like, Little Faust and Vic Halsey as a genre of, you know, men want to go fast and get away from their problems. They're like, men need to, like, go be in nature and get away from their problems and be manly. I'm like, that's cool, but I don't care that much. So this is. It's sort of a subject matter issue. I do also think that we're perhaps overweighting the film for the meme. You know, it has really taken on a second and. And third life, and it's a great meme. But were you old enough to see this in theaters? I did not see this in theater.
- [57:54]
B
This movie was a very big hit at the time, by the way.
- [57:57]
A
Very big, big box office. And I rewatched it in preparation for this podcast, and I. I mean, love it. I. I would make it green. I love this movie. I love it in terms of Redford's career, because there is. There is some real myth building here, right? He is really the hero of this movie. And the hero in this movie becomes a legend. And I think with a lot of movie stars, there is an early movie in their career where they say, all right, I'm gonna own this. I own the legend. I will take that on. And I think that's very present in Jeremiah Johnson.
- [58:36]
C
We can't make both Downhill Racer and Jeremiah Johnson green.
- [58:39]
B
This is what I was getting at.
- [58:40]
C
No, I know.
- [58:41]
B
Well, I, you know, you guys jumped to green on Downhill Racer.
- [58:45]
C
Well, we can always undo it.
- [58:47]
B
We got nine more 70s movies to talk about.
- [58:49]
A
Well, we can make Jeremiah Johnson. I think that Downhill Racer should be green and Jeremiah Johnson should be yellow.
- [58:56]
B
Okay, we'll do that. We'll start with that. That was the first of three films that he makes in 1972. The next film that he makes is the Candidate.
- [59:03]
C
Yes.
- [59:04]
B
This is also happens to be one of my favorite films of all time.
- [59:07]
A
It's a great movie.
- [59:09]
B
So this is a film in which he plays an aspiring politician who is plunged quickly into a race, and we see what feels like real time. Him going from a very unlikely figure in this political election to someone who could very well win. And what does that mean? And what are the specific steps that need to happen for him to win? And then what are the ramifications of the decisions that he and his team are making? This is his reunion with Michael Ritchie. Peter Boyle plays campaign manager figure. Very funny, very insightful. Very prescient film. One of the loosest Redford movies. I think the idea that this guy is kind of figuring it out in real time is really well portrayed by him. And one of the great endings ever. One of the great final lines in movie history.
- [59:58]
A
Academy Award for best screenplay for Jeremy Larner.
- [60:01]
B
So this movie, I think, you know, for the physical media heads, this is a painful one.
- [60:07]
A
Oh, man, is it ever.
- [60:09]
B
This is. There's only one DVD version available in a snap case, really, which makes me want to die.
- [60:15]
C
So a snap case is just the traditional plastic case.
- [60:18]
B
It's the paper case, a cardboard case.
- [60:20]
A
Do you own that?
- [60:20]
B
I do.
- [60:21]
A
See, I bought it on whatever, the Amazon whatever, to re watch it for this, and it was so depressing.
- [60:28]
B
It sucked. It's so annoying. It's a beautiful movie. No, it's like, it's not important for this conversation.
- [60:34]
A
Yeah. It's just some ugly, uglier plastic than normal.
- [60:38]
C
Okay.
- [60:39]
B
It's one of the grails where it's like people, film fans, would like to have this movie look more beautiful than it is. And it's just a very insightful and entertaining movie that I think holds up pretty darn well 50 years later. And I don't know if maybe in part because of that physical media thing, it doesn't have quite the reputation. It still has kind of hidden gem reputation. But I think it's one of his best performances and a darn good movie. I think Yellow is fair.
- [61:05]
C
Okay.
- [61:06]
B
I don't. You know, I don't. What are your thoughts?
- [61:09]
A
Yellow, sure. I'm more. I lean more toward green in these early movies, but I understand we've got a long way to go.
- [61:17]
C
The Candidate is a Shawn movie, and I saw it as one of your favorite movies.
- [61:22]
B
This is frequently in my top four.
- [61:24]
C
On letterboxd, and I know it as that. And so I also. To your point about, you know, myth making, or at least that I always associate it as a core part of Redford figuring out his stardom and negotiating with his stardom, which, you know, to me is interesting. I like the metatext, so I kind of assumed it would be green, but we can yellow it for now.
- [61:46]
B
The other thing that I like about it very quickly is that it's a confirmation of his relationship to politics, which is that he is so ambivalent, if not utterly frustrated by bureaucracy and the necessity, like, the impossibility of change inside of systems, that he's like, the only way you can do it is do it yourself. The only way you can do it is get in front of a microphone if you're powerful and say what you think, or start something yourself and pay for it with your own money. And don't try to do this because this is a broken down bad idea.
- [62:17]
A
All that's true. He was also a good Democrat, though. Let's not. He was sugarcoat that he was a good Democrat.
- [62:23]
B
He supported Bill Bradley in a presidential election.
- [62:25]
A
Right.
- [62:26]
C
Let me. Can I ask just one follow up? How often are you changing your letterbox? Top four?
- [62:31]
B
Every month.
- [62:32]
C
So it's like on the calendar? No, it's like, okay, but you said.
- [62:36]
B
That with confidence, like you have a voice inside of me, that you have a.
- [62:39]
C
You have an alert like, Mr. Redford.
- [62:42]
B
I'm a man of great ambition and what I do every day.
- [62:45]
C
What are you changing your letterbox for?
- [62:46]
A
Not changing it.
- [62:47]
C
Okay.
- [62:48]
A
Done in collaboration with Carrie. We have our letterboxd account together.
- [62:52]
C
Oh, that's nice.
- [62:52]
A
So, yeah, done in collaboration with her. But we don't mess with it.
- [62:58]
C
Okay.
- [62:59]
A
We will at some point. I'll probably change it.
- [63:00]
C
No, it's fine. He tossed that off like there was just some sort of schedule. And I suspect that there is, but he'll never admit it.
- [63:09]
B
Simply not true. There are no reminders. I'm just acting on instinct at all times. The candidate is yellow. 1972. The hot rock, Peter Yates heist comedy starring Redford and George Siegel in a quartet of bank robbers. Or would be bank robbers, I think bank robbers. Bank robbers. Bank robbers.
- [63:31]
A
Jewel thieves.
- [63:31]
B
Jewel thieves. Jewel thieves. Thank you. Jewel thieves mean.
- [63:34]
A
Not to be that guy, but.
- [63:36]
B
No, you're right. Jewel thieves.
- [63:38]
A
I'm going off the dome from here on.
- [63:40]
B
Wow. Yeah. Highly entertaining film.
- [63:43]
C
This is one of those. We don't have room for it, but a classic. Really, really good. And I do also feel when Redford died, a lot of people, we talked about all the great ones, and then they're like, have you ever seen the Hot Rock? Because that's a real one. It is, yeah.
- [63:57]
B
This is going right down Sean's alley, this movie. I told you. I saw this at the New Bev on the big screen maybe 10 years ago. And I had that same reaction where I was like, this is one of the best movies of the 70s. It's incredibly fun. It's light on its feet. Redford's very good. You don't like it? I love it. I'm shaking your head like you're an rjob.
- [64:14]
A
In fact, I broke down and bought that goddamn Twilight Time Blue on. I bought it on eBay I don't want to tell you how much I paid for it. It's an embarrassing amount of money.
- [64:27]
B
I told Tracy that after I saw it at the New Bev years ago. I bought it right away when Twilight Time. This company still existed. And now this is a very hard movie to find on physical.
- [64:37]
A
I tracked down a new copy on ebay, New still in the Plastic on ebay and rewatched it just a couple of days ago. And it's fantastic.
- [64:44]
B
A lot of fun, really funny. Ron Liebman in this movie. Really funny.
- [64:50]
A
The walk that Redford does at the end of this movie after he leaves and he's spoiler alert after he's got the gem in his pocket. The walk, the physicalization of joy and satisfaction is a marvel. It's to be studied. I mean it's really something else. You cannot watch it and not just have a shit eating grin on your face the whole time you're watching him do that.
- [65:18]
C
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- [65:48]
B
We haven't even gotten to like most of the all time classics. This is going to be a problem.
- [65:51]
C
Okay. So it has to. Hot rod can be yellow.
- [65:53]
B
Hot rock can be yellow.
- [65:54]
C
That's fine.
- [65:54]
B
It's probably not going to go in 1973. The yeah, this film won best picture, right?
- [65:59]
C
But so did other things that he was involved in.
- [66:01]
B
He was also nominated for best actor for this film. It is his biggest box office success of all time.
- [66:07]
A
It's totally green.
- [66:08]
B
It has to go in. I'm a big fan of this movie but I do not think it is like a five star masterpiece. Our producer Jack just saw it for the first time. He was like I've been waiting my whole life to see this movie in part because it has that wonderful reveal that you were talking about when you saw it as an 8 year old. I do think a 3rd and 5th and 9th viewings are a little bit less compelling. For me personally.
- [66:31]
A
Chris Ryan said he thought it was better than Bush, Cassie and the Sundance.
- [66:34]
B
Kid that's something I don't understand.
- [66:35]
C
That's wilding.
- [66:36]
B
I don't understand that we can't be.
- [66:38]
C
Responsible for all of his opinions.
- [66:40]
B
But I agree that this thing has to go in. Let's continue. Let's talk about the Way We Were.
- [66:44]
A
Okay. I just want to point out 1972, Jeremiah Johnson, the candidate, the Hot Rock, 1973, the way we Were and the Sting.
- [66:57]
C
Yeah.
- [66:59]
A
Who ever had a two year run like this?
- [67:01]
B
Unmatched. Right.
- [67:02]
A
There's nobody else ever sane.
- [67:04]
C
It's out of control.
- [67:05]
B
Is that a good episode of this show is two year runs. I've always wanted to do a series on the best runs of all time. But that period of five movies in 24 months and the quality of those movies and the success of those movies is stunning. So the Way We Were. Yeah, go ahead. I'll lay out.
- [67:24]
C
I mean, he is Hubble Gardner to me. And I think too many, many people. I think I first saw the Way We Were because it was. There was an homage to it in a episode of Sex and The City and Mr. Big and Carrie are outside the, the plaza as they are. And she says, your girl is lovely, Hubble. And I was like, well, what's that about? But I think that there is no better movie ever made about just like the really handsome, kind of perfect guy who's just out of reach and you can't and it's never gonna work. And even he wants it to work and he thinks he can be more interesting and he thinks he can be different. And you know that the short story that Hubble writes, I think it's called the All American Smile and it's, you know, sort of there's a self loathing quality to Hubble and he's so interested in the Barbra Streisand character, but like at the end he's just kind of a cuck. Like he is like he can't live up to what he's supposed to do. And then the movie totally falls apart or doesn't fall apart, but like it's not clear why. He just builds a crib and then never sees his daughter ever again. I don't totally, you know, not relatable to me. We could do a rewrite or maybe just don't build the crib. But I mean, it's a pretty iconic role.
- [68:55]
B
Smash sensation film. One of the biggest movies in the 1970s. True. Sidney Pollock again. It's fine.
- [69:02]
C
I mean, I know men don't get this. Men, Men really don't get this. This is Like, I mean, it's true.
- [69:07]
B
It's not bad. I'm not trying. I'm not criticizing it. I think it's good.
- [69:10]
A
I'm gonna criticize it.
- [69:11]
C
Okay, great.
- [69:12]
A
And I don't think it's. I don't think it is a gender thing, actually. I watched it with Carrie recently and we kind of came away feeling the same way about it. I had seen much of it or all of it on TV before, but we sat down and watched the 4K, which I own, and we watched it and we kind of came away with the same response, which was, first of all, he gets Robert Redford. Pollock puts Robert Redford and Barbra Streisand in close up. How much of that movie is a close up of one of the two of them or a two shot of.
- [69:43]
B
The two of them?
- [69:43]
A
It's just like, you want the biggest movie stars in the world? Here they fucking are. And I'm gonna give them to you. And that is an achievement. The song works.
- [69:54]
C
It does.
- [69:54]
A
The song totally works. The song hits all the spots inside you it's supposed to hit. The ending works.
- [70:03]
C
Yeah.
- [70:03]
A
The parting of the two of them absolutely works. And hits you in that place, like, oh, the one that got away. All that kind of thing. There were things about this movie that are surprisingly kind of slipshod. The attention to period is nil. The attention to characters who are supposed to age 25 years over the course of this thing. They don't change their hair.
- [70:27]
B
They're both in.
- [70:28]
C
Yeah, she does. She. Well, Katie changes her hair. And that's like. It's a major plot point. And then in the end, he's like, you went back to your hair.
- [70:35]
B
Oh, right.
- [70:36]
C
It looks great.
- [70:38]
A
But they're not even wearing period hair.
- [70:39]
C
But you're right. But it's not about the time period. It's about, like, her sort of, you know, trying to, like, assimilate and be like the. And then having her normal. Her natural hair.
- [70:52]
A
Do you buy her activism?
- [70:57]
C
Yes. More than his. She stands for.
- [71:00]
A
She's not an activist.
- [71:01]
C
Well, do I buy Katie's. What do you mean?
- [71:04]
A
I don't know. I mean, something about her activism feels like just on the border. Not quite, but just on the border of, like, wacky dame. Do you believe that wacky dame and her socialist ideas? This is like Jerry Lewis.
- [71:19]
B
She would have done very well in Mom, Donnie's New York is what I'll say. She's a real democratic socialist.
- [71:25]
A
I just think that stuff has given some short shrift.
- [71:28]
C
Sure. I mean, everything having to do with The House of UnAmerican Activities Committee is. It's not explored. It's pretty confusing. I mean, I know what's going on because I understand history. But if you didn't know anything about the movie and sat down and watched it, we're like, okay, so who's in trouble and why?
- [71:48]
A
And apparently there's a recent Streisand cut.
- [71:52]
B
Right?
- [71:53]
A
Do you know about this? There's a recent Streisand cut of the movie that puts a lot of the House UN American Activities Committee stuff back into the third act. Pollock was against. Pollock said no. Pollock didn't want it. So it's not a director's cut. It's a Streisand cut.
- [72:09]
B
Interesting, Babs.
- [72:11]
A
Some people think it's better. Some people argue that it's better.
- [72:16]
B
I believe I saw this movie many years ago. I thought it was perfectly fine, and I haven't revisited it.
- [72:20]
C
You don't have a heart.
- [72:23]
B
Okay, fair enough.
- [72:24]
A
It works. And it was clearly a cultural.
- [72:27]
B
So this is probably maybe the signature romantic feature of his career. There's probably one other one that we can make the case for, though. It's also not a film I love. So in that vein, Redford, one of the heartthrobs of the second half of the 20th century. I think if you spoke to a lot of people who had identified themselves as Robert Redford fans, it wasn't usually like weedly little Blu Ray collectors like me. It was like. It was women. Women loved Robert Redford.
- [72:57]
A
Yeah.
- [72:57]
B
And I think this is the reason why this movie.
- [73:00]
C
Our friend and colleague Juliet Lippman is a huge Robert Redford fan. She and her mother both. And like, I think on down days they get together and watch Robert Redford films. I texted her, I said, what is your pick? Like, what's the number one? What do I have to put in instant? The way we were.
- [73:14]
B
So I think for that reason, this has to be green.
- [73:17]
A
I do too.
- [73:17]
B
Okay, great.
- [73:18]
A
I can argue against the quality quality of the movie and still say it's.
- [73:22]
C
I agree with you. And the script. It seems like they did cut a lot out. It kind of falls apart. The motivations at end. It's like, why can't they make it work? I mean, I don't really know other than that the movie's arc is that it is supposed to be the juice is that he's kind of out of grasp. He can't really make it work.
- [73:42]
A
But there's not a lot of heat. Right. I mean, there's some soft focus making out in front of the fireplace. But there's not a lot of, like, I have to have you. And so you're wondering why they do keep going back to each other as well.
- [73:55]
B
And supposedly he really did not want to do the movie.
- [73:59]
A
Right.
- [73:59]
B
I'm pretty sure. I remember reading it. Took him a lot of convincing to end up doing this also. Just two of the hottest people who've ever lived on planet Earth.
- [74:07]
C
She's so good in this film.
- [74:08]
A
And he wore two pairs of underwear.
- [74:10]
B
While shooting the film to protect himself.
- [74:14]
A
He wanted to maintain a professional.
- [74:18]
C
Okay.
- [74:19]
B
There's not a lot of stories of him trying to bed down his co stars.
- [74:22]
A
It's one of the reasons they loved working with him.
- [74:24]
B
Unlike most of his contemporaries, he was married for a long period of time. Reportedly very faithful. And actresses loved him.
- [74:34]
C
Yeah. He also. I mean, Jane Fonda and Barbra Streisand, two fearsome women. And I mean that in a complimentary way, but, like, those are not people. I mean, I guess many people did, you know, put them through issues. I've read the whole Jane Fonda biography twice, but very strong in their careers. Exactly. And Forces of Nature.
- [74:56]
A
And after he died, they both came forward with statements of, what a gentleman.
- [75:00]
B
And, you know, okay, so the way we were is green. That means the Great Gatsby comes in 1974. And this is a big miss. This is the beginning of what I'll describe as Dull Redford. And there are a lot of Dull Redford movies, which is unusual because he's so magnetic.
- [75:18]
A
Did you watch it?
- [75:19]
B
I've seen it before. I didn't watch it before this.
- [75:21]
C
This was shown to us in high school. We did also read the Great Gatsby.
- [75:24]
B
It was shown to me as well.
- [75:25]
C
But then it has reached like, this is a history textbook.
- [75:30]
A
I watched it for this. Just fucking stop with Gatsby. Just fucking stop. It's a great book. Just let it be a book. Stop it.
- [75:39]
B
Yeah. I think that this is. It's the same miscalculation over and over again, which is because of the way that he is described in the first half of the book. We keep thinking it needs to be the most beautiful movie star in the Jay Gatsby part. And that's not it. Jay Gatsby is not cool. He is a loser. And you're supposed to know he's a loser.
- [76:00]
A
That's right.
- [76:01]
B
And this movie also, it makes the same miscalculation that, in my opinion, the Baz Luhrmann movie makes as well. There's some interesting stuff in the Baz Luhrmann movie. I don't hate that movie. But anytime I see this adapted, it's always like the Golden God is playing Jay Gatsby. And I think that's a misread of the book. Anyway, the movie's not very good. Francis Ford Coppola also wrote this screenplay. Yeah.
- [76:21]
A
Should have been an American director.
- [76:23]
B
It's Jack Clayton. Yes.
- [76:25]
A
An English director and should have been an American.
- [76:27]
B
That's red. 1975. Three days of the Condor. No, this is green.
- [76:32]
A
Instant green. I mean, it's gotta be total green. The best of the Redford Pollock collaborations.
- [76:38]
B
Totally agree.
- [76:38]
C
So, so good.
- [76:40]
B
Brilliantly constructed adaptation of a novel.
- [76:43]
C
This is. I was going to say this is the opposite of you being like, when I'm feeling down and I need a two minute pick me up, I just go back and watch the Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kids scene where I was like, I don't really need to watch all of Three Days of the Condor, but I will just watch the assassination scene. And it is brutal and perfectly executed. And that's also. Redford is not in it. That is just actually Pollock, you know, finding magic. And maybe to your point about they don't bring out the best in each other when Redford is off screen is when he can really achieve greatness. But no, Redford's amazing in it. They did fate Dunaway wrong. But, you know, what are you gonna do?
- [77:24]
B
Not the best. Most sensitive portrayal of that character. And she was a huge star at the time, too. But the movie itself is riveting. Also prescient. Fits very neatly in this period of paranoia. Pollock didn't make a ton of movies like this. The Firm is kind of like this. They're kind of spiritual sequels.
- [77:43]
A
And Pollock had said after this, when people tried to ascribe a kind of social importance to the movie regarding politics, et cetera, he said, no, no, no, no. We were making a thriller.
- [77:54]
B
This is a thriller.
- [77:55]
A
Yeah, this is a thriller.
- [77:57]
B
I'm glad to hear you both love it and think it's a green.
- [78:00]
C
I mean, I'm sure that's convenient for him to say, but the ending in particular, another amazing ending.
- [78:05]
B
The New York Times.
- [78:06]
C
And also one that twists. Your certainty of. Of up is down. Exactly.
- [78:15]
A
Have you ever read John Lithgow's memoir?
- [78:17]
B
No.
- [78:19]
A
You should read it. And just for nothing else to hear him rip Cliff Robertson a new asshole.
- [78:26]
B
He wouldn't be the first. Now, this is a situation in which he is perfectly cast. Perfectly cast in this era. He's cast in A lot of movies in which he's meant to be sympathetic and he does not seem like a very nice man, but he's really. He's really good in this. Yeah.
- [78:40]
A
As a nasty CIA fan, Max von Sydow. I mean, there's a lot of great stuff. I mean, yes. The romance is the thing that was like, okay, that's the kind of thriller. Conceit. It's a.
- [78:50]
C
Right.
- [78:50]
A
We wouldn't do that now. I don't think we would at least try to build in a little more.
- [78:57]
C
They could just. But they're. That first scene, once he takes in her apartment and he gives her the card and they're yelling at each other and she's like, I'm scared. I am, too. They're really, really good together. And then they just tap to make out. Because it was 1975.
- [79:14]
A
May I take a moment to speak to the listeners?
- [79:17]
B
Certainly.
- [79:18]
A
There's a 4K on Kino Lorber of Three Days of the Condor.
- [79:24]
C
Is this your new thing? You're just doing ASMR physical media.
- [79:28]
A
If you like movies, buy that for $20 and own it and keep it on your shelf.
- [79:34]
C
You could sell this on OnlyFans, dude. Don't give it away for free.
- [79:37]
B
I did see this movie at the arrow two years ago, projected on 35, and it was beautiful. It was so good. This is a great movie if you haven't seen it. Okay. 75. The great Waldo, a reunion with George Roy Hill. Movie about a 1920s, 1930s aerial artist in the aftermath of World War I who was not fortunate enough, I guess, to fly in World War I. And so he pursues this career and this degree of fame. Always been a bit of a curious movie. Pretty successful at the box office. Hit Margot Kidder, Susan Sarandon. Who is his opponent? I can't recall. Is it Bo Svensson?
- [80:14]
A
Yes, Bo Svenson in, like, his first, maybe his first big movie. And Bo Finson's very good in this film.
- [80:20]
B
Yeah. Never been one of my faves. I think it's cool. I. There's a great chapter about it in William Goldman's Adventures in the Screen trade and how much he liked this movie and how interesting he thought it was and how proud of it he was. But it didn't quite attain the iconic status of some of their other collaborations.
- [80:35]
A
Goldman also suggests that he knows the reason the movie failed, and it's because of a narrative decision he makes regarding the death of a character midway through. And I think Goldman is absolutely wrong in his estimation of why the movie doesn't Work.
- [80:50]
B
Work.
- [80:51]
A
It doesn't work. There are good things about it. It's not a bad watch, but it's certainly not holistic.
- [80:56]
C
I mean, they just, they spend a lot of time flying, you know, and it does seem sort of, I think that all the filmmakers were very infatuated with actually getting the footage of people flying and recreating these aerial battles and being true to, you know, whatever formations which like, listen, I'm the world's number one Top Gun Maverick fan. Like, I appreciate fidelity in airplanes, but it's slow and they're just floating up in the air for a long time.
- [81:25]
A
Do you suppose that because of the way I feel about great Waldo Pepper, that's why I've never seen Top Gun Maverick?
- [81:32]
C
You are invited to our house anytime to watch Top Maverick. It will be me, my three year old son and you and he'll narrate it for you.
- [81:39]
B
That sounds Great. That's red. 1976. All the president's Men.
- [81:44]
C
Green.
- [81:45]
B
Total green. This is obviously green for a variety of reasons.
- [81:47]
C
It's the best.
- [81:48]
B
I would argue, aside from this being one of the most watchable films ever made, that Redford seeking out this material and identifying that this should be a film before the book is even published and knowing that he should be Woodward is one of the great acts of star protessorial work in movie history.
- [82:09]
A
Good Democrat too, right? Good Democratic work.
- [82:12]
B
Yes. Well, Nixon was already on his way down as this was all happening. But yeah, this movie's a banger. It's a total classic.
- [82:18]
C
I would also add, when Redford died, many people were posting stills from Three Days of the Condor and specifically the Peacoat and talking about how that's the hottest that Redford has ever been on screen. And I would just like to state clearly and definitively that Robert Redford show. Shirtless. No, no, no, no, not this scene. Shirtless with the gold chain, trying to find his pen to write something down in all the President's Men. I think also while the music's playing very loudly is the hottest that Robert Redford ever was on screen.
- [82:49]
A
40 years old when this kid, you know. Yeah, I know, made it work. I think there's. I actually think there's an argument that it's one of the greatest American movies ever made.
- [83:02]
C
Agree.
- [83:04]
A
I think it's just superb from top to bottom. I can find no fault with it. I had a friend who watched it not long ago and she spoke to me and she said, what is the difference between Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman and the guys in the office, who they work for. Martin Balsam, Jason Robards, Jack Warden, et cetera. What's the difference? She said, because there's such a difference between what it is to be a man, Right? It is a pretty male heavy movie, what it is to be a man. And my best explanation was those guys are veterans. Those guys. All those guys, not only veterans. And Hal Holbrook, too, I believe. Combat veterans. And Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman represent the first real generation that did not come from that tradition of you. You know, you.
- [84:01]
B
You got drafted, you got drafted, or.
- [84:03]
A
You do your service one way or another.
- [84:05]
B
That's interesting.
- [84:06]
A
It is interesting. It's especially interesting when you get to a place later in the career, right, where Mr. Redford is, is the older guy and he's passing the baton to younger guys along the way. It's like, well, there are no veterans here, Right. We're in a different realm of human experience.
- [84:23]
B
You're referring to Lions for Lambs, I think when you say that.
- [84:27]
A
Or I'm referring to Spiky.
- [84:28]
B
Okay.
- [84:29]
C
Yeah.
- [84:30]
B
Well, all the President's Men is in. That's nice. Big win for my guy. Alan Pakula, Pride of Long Island, 1977.
- [84:36]
A
Is that right?
- [84:37]
B
I didn't know this. A bridge Too Far, 1977.
- [84:41]
A
Did I watch this is again Chris Ryan. What are you talking about?
- [84:44]
B
This must be so boring.
- [84:44]
A
This is so fucking dull.
- [84:45]
B
I know. I watched this during COVID with my wife, and halfway through, she was like, how long is this? And that's never a good sign. This movie has an extraordinary cast. It's directed by.
- [84:55]
A
It's too extraordinary.
- [84:56]
B
It's written by William Goldman. It's directed by Richard Attenborough. It is one of the most. All of the pieces of the puzzle are spread out on the floor, but none of them fit together movies ever made, in my opinion. Now, this movie has a lot of defenders, a lot of fans. Did you revisit this?
- [85:11]
C
No, because I googled it. And to answer Eileen's question, it's three hours long. And I was like, I'm out. We don't have room for this.
- [85:17]
B
Well. Cause an hour and a half in, you're like, when is this gonna. What are we doing?
- [85:22]
A
I learned something when I saw this movie at the movie theater with my parents. And we left and we were talking. My dad was talking me through why it didn't work, what was wrong with it. And he talks about a moment where Elliott Gould is about to lead a little troop of soldiers across a bridge, and the bridge gets blown Up. And he turns around and he looks toward the camera and he says, he's got a cigar in his mouth. And he says, shit. And dad said to me, he said, wouldn't it be more interesting if he turned around and said, pooh, pooh? Simply making the point that the expected is not always great and you should try to find the unexpected in the expected moment.
- [86:04]
B
Yeah. It's a movie made in the 70s that feels like it's trying to be in the 1950s. And I just want to read the cast really quickly, just for posterity's sake, because it's Dirk Bogard, James Caan, Michael Caine, Sean Connery, Edward Fox, Elliot Gould, Gene Hackman, Anthony Hoffman Hopkins, Lawrence Olivier, Ryan o', Neal, Robert Redford, Maximilian Shellman.
- [86:23]
A
No, no, no. Too many.
- [86:25]
B
That's 15 screen icons.
- [86:27]
A
Never good. Never good.
- [86:29]
B
Anyway, I do miss. I will say this, I do miss when Hollywood was like, we need to put everybody together in a movie.
- [86:36]
A
I don't.
- [86:36]
C
You know, it's called the Odyssey. Coming soon.
- [86:40]
B
You're right. You're absolutely right. And honestly, I anticipated.
- [86:44]
A
Yeah.
- [86:44]
B
And it could turn out to be a disaster, but I anticipate it. Okay. 1979. The Electric Horseman. Very strange and entertaining movie. This is a light comedy about a former rodeo champion who's become a spokesperson for a cereal company and he falls in love with Jane Fonda.
- [87:08]
A
Their fourth collaboration.
- [87:09]
B
Yes. And is this the first fifth movie with Pollock? At this point, I think it might be my fifth movie. Another movie that was a big hit. I would say a little lower on the scale of greatness. This is kind of a lark.
- [87:23]
C
Yeah. Not available on streaming.
- [87:25]
B
No kidding. Wow. I also own this movie.
- [87:27]
C
Okay.
- [87:27]
A
I don't own it.
- [87:29]
B
Wow.
- [87:29]
A
Saw it in the movie theater.
- [87:31]
C
Okay.
- [87:32]
B
Thought it was fine.
- [87:33]
A
Thought it was fine.
- [87:33]
C
Yeah. I would just like to say, am pro mustache for Redford.
- [87:37]
B
He looks good. Nice. He looks good. Very charming. Okay.
- [87:40]
A
Loved horse. Loved being on horseback.
- [87:42]
C
We'll come back to that.
- [87:43]
A
Yeah.
- [87:44]
B
1980. Brewbaker. Watched this movie this morning. Not for the first time. Okay. This is a movie that has a great premise and I wonder what it could have been if things went a little bit differently. So it's a movie about a man who arrives at a. Like, it's a high security prison that is apparently quite corrupt. And we start seeing the prison through his eyes for the first 30 minutes of the movie. And I'll spoil the twist because it's spoiled on the poster of the movie. If you've ever seen it, even though it should not have been, in my opinion. But this man that Redford plays who's entering this prison is in fact the warden of the prison and is observing what's transpiring in this corrupt prison so that he can figure out how to fix the problems of the place. And then the second half of the movie is about him attempting to change those change, to make change. And he finds that it's hard to make change in this bureaucratic world that we live in. The movie was supposed to be directed by Bob Raphaelson and he was fired after 10 days. Bob Raphaelson coming out of the incredible swell of the late 60s and 1970s where he had a tremendous amount of success as a director. And he gets fired and he gets replaced by Stuart Rosenberg who directed Cool Hand Luke. And this movie wants to have some Cool Hand Luke energy. Never totally gets there, in my opinion.
- [89:02]
A
Do you own this movie?
- [89:03]
B
I do.
- [89:04]
A
I don't. I saw at the movie theater.
- [89:06]
C
Wow.
- [89:06]
A
It was okay.
- [89:08]
B
Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. It's got great Yafe Koto performance.
- [89:11]
A
There's a lot of great supporting actors.
- [89:12]
B
Good Morgan Freeman performance. Very, very early Morgan Freeman role. It does feel like a hangover from the 70s movie where they're trying to make a 70s movie and it feels like it's a little out of time. It's not bad.
- [89:24]
A
Emmett Walsh.
- [89:25]
B
Yes. Very good.
- [89:26]
A
Tim McIntyre. You know Tim McIntyre is.
- [89:30]
B
Tell us.
- [89:30]
A
Well, he also wrote the music for Jeremiah Johnson and he's singing the songs in Jeremiah Johnson. Tim McIntyre and John Rubenstein were actors who basically put together a tape. They knew the story of Jeremiah Johnson and they made their own tape of their own music and somehow got it to Pollock and that became the score for Jeremiah Johnson, which actually becomes very important in that movie because of course, Jeremiah Johnson has an overture and an entre acte.
- [90:04]
B
Right.
- [90:04]
A
When you see that thing fully done and they sing, write the ballad of Jeremiah Johnson. Very much in that mode of myth maker. Anyway, Tim McIntyre, very good, good troubled character actor. He's very good in Brubaker.
- [90:18]
B
Brubaker is going to be red.
- [90:21]
C
Hi, it's Eva Longoria and let's be real. After 40, we should ask for more from our skincare. I swear by Revitalift triple power moisturizer.
- [90:30]
A
By l' Oreal Paris with vitamin C pro, retinol and hyaluronic acid. It reduces my wrinkles, firms and brightens.
- [90:39]
C
And it's not a procedure, it's just.
- [90:41]
B
A hard working moisturizer.
- [90:43]
C
Revitalift triple power moisturizer by Lore l' Oreal Paris. Grab it today in fragrance, free or with SPF 30.
- [90:49]
B
Available at your local Walmart. Oh, what fun. Holiday invites are arriving and Nordstrom has your party fits covered. You'll find head to toe looks for every occasion, including styles under a hundred, dresses, sets, heels and accessories from Bardot, Princess Polly, Dolce Vita, Naked wardrobe coach and more. Freestyle help. Free shipping and quick order pickup make it easy in stores or online. It's time to go shopping at Nordstrom. 1980, Robert Redford decides he wants to be a director. Mm. Ordinary people.
- [91:26]
C
Yeah.
- [91:27]
B
Now I have a great many thoughts about this movie. I did an episode of the Rewatchals about it a few years ago. Deeply emotional film. Kind of a keystone, I think, to Robert Redford. The man was hugely celebrated in its day one best Picture and it's just not at all what you would have expected from him based on his career to that point. It's a real curveball. But he has really good instincts, particularly casting Mary Tyler Moore. Really smart move. It's not my favorite movie of his. It's not my favorite directed movie of his. It is very significant in his career. And so I'm curious what you both think of the movie and I'm curious how you feel it fits into the framework of his career.
- [92:08]
C
I mean, it gets. I was gonna say two. And that's unfair to Donald Sutherland. Three really amazing performances in Mary Tyler Moore, Timothy Hutton and Donald Sutherland and. And Judd Hirsch, of course. Yeah. And there is a surprising sensitivity and like emotional awareness which, you know, not to take shots at Robert Redford, but he's not exactly like on a therapy couch in all of the movies up to this point. He is playing very like buttoned up, emotionally unavailable people. And so I think it's admirable and interesting that this is what he picks and that he does it so deftly. It's a, you know, I hadn't seen it since becoming a mom and that is. That's tough. But an amazing Mary Tyler Moore performance. So. And it's so significant. I don't know. What would you put in as. Are you imagining that we'll save one slot for director?
- [93:16]
B
I think we could do as many as we want to do. I don't know if it's his best directed movie, but it's such an interesting, interesting thing for him to choose to do and it's hard to not, you know, he's someone who lost his mother at a young age and it really hurt him. And he spoke sparingly about it, but when he does speak about it, it kind of shattered something in him. And this is a movie about grief and not knowing what to do with it.
- [93:41]
C
He also lost a child very young from what we now call sids, which, you know, so it's pretty literally, you know, relevant to what he's dealing with or has dealt with, but not something he spoke about beyond this movie, really.
- [93:57]
B
It's also historically kind of a movie history villain, because this is the movie that beat Raging Bull at the Academy Awards. And Raging Bull considered, you know, this the stature of the cinephile, you know, the achievement. And this is kind of a soggy drama. But both movies are good and for different reasons.
- [94:15]
C
It's not that soggy. I don't know, Tracy, what's the verdict?
- [94:19]
A
I love Ordinary People. I think it's a great movie. I think it should have beat Raging Bull for Best Picture. I think it's a better film. And I love Raging Bull. I love a lot about Raging Bull. Clearly, as a technical achievement, it is a marvel. And from a performance standpoint, I mean, De Niro is undeniable, which is probably why they committed egregious category fraud by putting Timothy Hutton in Supporting Actor, because he is the lead in Ordinary People, and it is a great performance. He's great in this film. But Jake LaMotta was a colossal asshole. I know in some ways, that's what Raging Bull is about. Some of us who were alive in 1980 and going to see the movie are like, they made a movie about Jake LaMotta. That guy's a colossal asshole. I don't know what we're gonna get out of this. So I love Raging Bullets. Not to take anything away from that. I just think Ordinary People is a really beautiful, heartfelt, in the best sense of that word, film. And I think it's genuinely affecting, and I think it genuinely speaks to the American family. And I just think that's. I not only think it's good, I think it's important. So, yeah, it's green for me. I love it.
- [95:36]
B
I think so, too.
- [95:37]
C
I mean, and he won Best Director for it. So historically, we've done. The Oscar winner goes in.
- [95:42]
B
Okay. Ordinary People is green.
- [95:44]
C
Yeah.
- [95:45]
B
Let's go back to his film career because he takes eight years off between directing projects. 1984, the Natural. So he takes some time off here in this interregnum. He is trying to buy land in Utah and essentially buys a mountain and then begins to start to build out what would become the Sundance Institute, which eventually evolves into a film Festival and a kind of way station. And he's pursuing a lot of local activism at this time. He's trying to prevent things from being built and land from being destroyed for the sake of commerce. And it's interesting that after a movie that is so sensitive and emotional and seemingly very personal that he takes a bit of a break from movies after reaching the mountaintop.
- [96:29]
A
Right.
- [96:29]
B
And he comes back with the Natural, which is also an iconic film and also a film that kind of lives forever. And you mentioned what social media was being shared in the aftermath. I think for a certain generation of man this is a very important movie. And I would say maybe not quite my gen. Maybe even between us somehow. I think if you're 50, this movie really matters. I like it quite a bit. I think it's quite stately. There's some things I don't. I'm not in love with about it. But it does feel like it is an essential part of his mythology.
- [97:04]
C
I'm too young for this one and I love baseball movies and I love Robert Redford. I guess I came to it late and so I think I. I think I came to it after Field of Dreams and after. I don't know. And so I expected it to be some great like on the field triumph. And everyone's like, oh, you know, Redford is so convincing as a ballplayer. Which he is Roy Hopps. But it's really just about some very involved rigged games and a lady shooting him for no reason that I.
- [97:40]
B
Quite a jarring sequence.
- [97:41]
C
It's very. I was like what is going on? And so. And he is quite old. So I know that it's a huge deal. It's not my particular. He also like the Redford performance. Is I good because it is good because it is very much, you know, it's movie is myth even. You know, it is made in that very grand. Like this, you know, this is baseball Jesus. But he is playing it like baseball Jesus. I don't know.
- [98:11]
A
Does he bat left in the movie?
- [98:13]
B
I think so.
- [98:14]
A
Because he's a lefty. He does, he does.
- [98:17]
B
He does. Yeah.
- [98:17]
A
He's lefty in all things other than writing. Have you noticed that he writes with his right hand? It must have been some like school.
- [98:23]
C
Thing where they made him let you.
- [98:24]
A
Forced him to use.
- [98:26]
B
My entire father's side of the family is left handed and my mother's side of the family is all right handed. And so me and my siblings have all of these awkward things. My brother bats left handed and writes right handed. Unusual. Anyway, you like the Natural?
- [98:40]
A
Not especially. I'm not a. I mean, I'm a big Malamud fan. This is based on a Bernard Malamud book, which is much more obscure material than this movie.
- [98:52]
B
Right.
- [98:52]
A
This movie's pretty on the nose. The swelling. Is it a Newman? One of the Newmans doing the music? Doing the Randy.
- [99:00]
C
It is Randy. Because another thing, when I rewatched it, the final scene, that score has been reused more times. I think I know that piece of music better than I know the rest of the Natural, because.
- [99:13]
B
But that Newman score is very. This is the start of really a huge era of Newman making scores like this. But he was not really known for making scores like this this time anyhow.
- [99:23]
A
But he came from a lineage of.
- [99:25]
B
Squirrels, his uncle and his cousin.
- [99:28]
A
There's a great clip of Robert Duvall on the David Letterman show, and Letterman is asking him about some of his movies, and he says, well, you were in a great. You were in the Natural. That's a great movie. And Duvall kind of shrugs, and Letterman says, you don't think it's a great movie? And Duvall's response is cute at best. That's what Duvall said about the movie.
- [99:52]
B
I don't know. I think it's a little better than cute at best, But I don't have a huge relationship to it. It's just for this exercise that we do on the show. This movie, which all three of us don't have a huge affection for, is a challenge to the premise. What are we trying to accomplish here? Because this film would be listed among the first five films in any Robert Redford obituary in my. I would imagine. Right? Would it? I think Roy Hobbs is one of his. Let's just do that exercise really quick. Let's go from 10 to 5. All the President's Men.
- [100:21]
C
Yeah.
- [100:23]
B
Butch Cassidy.
- [100:24]
C
Yeah.
- [100:24]
A
The Sting. Way we were.
- [100:27]
B
Way we were. And I would say this movie. Now, maybe Ordinary People comes in there.
- [100:34]
C
And the director of Ordinary People. Yeah.
- [100:36]
B
But I think. I would argue that this is his last iconic screen performance. I. I'm not saying it's not his last good performance. He's got a lot of good performances after this, especially in the 2000s.
- [100:51]
C
I think you're probably right. I think that if someone.
- [100:55]
B
If you post this online and don't put the Natural in, people are gonna be like, what the fuck's the natural?
- [100:59]
C
Well, I know, but that happens all the time.
- [101:01]
B
All right? I know you got. I know everybody's better than the people on the. That's not the point. I'm trying to make. What is the purpose of the exercise? I got both of you now being like, well, who cares?
- [101:10]
A
Look, if the purpose of the exercise was to construct something that's universally recognized as the hall of Fame, then we can just go fucking, you know, look at Time magazine website or wherever the.
- [101:22]
B
I don't know.
- [101:23]
A
Does Time magazine still exist?
- [101:24]
C
They do, and they actually. They like this podcast. So, yeah, it'll be Newsweek.
- [101:29]
A
So we could go on. We could go to the New York Times and say, what are the. What's the. What are the 10 movies? This is our.
- [101:34]
B
Okay, the Natural is out.
- [101:36]
A
The Natural is out.
- [101:37]
B
So the Natural's out. And out of Africa is also out.
- [101:40]
A
Out of Africa is out.
- [101:41]
B
Out of Africa.
- [101:42]
C
What's.
- [101:42]
B
I watched yesterday. You guys were out partying. Partying, frolicking about Hollywood, galloping.
- [101:48]
A
We did get to dance. We wanted to dance, but it wasn't. There wasn't a good dance.
- [101:52]
C
And we made the slideshow. I just want to let you know, as the. Yeah. The results came in as we were recording.
- [101:57]
B
Sitting at home. Yeah. Watching this. This Best Picture winner.
- [102:01]
A
Watching the Jets.
- [102:03]
B
I did watch the jets as well. I watched the jets until I couldn't anymore. And then I put on out of Africa. This film, made in 1985, won Best Picture. It is also a Sidney Pollock production, not my Oscars. One of the most stately films of the 1980s. A real I'm putting on David Lean's clothes kind of film and is brutally dull. Brutally dull.
- [102:27]
A
There are good things about out of Africa.
- [102:30]
C
Okay.
- [102:32]
A
That's all I have to say.
- [102:33]
C
All right.
- [102:34]
B
I assume you feel the same way.
- [102:35]
C
Yeah. No, no, no. Very boring.
- [102:36]
B
So 1986, legal eagles. I did not revisit this. I'm sure I saw it on cable as a young person. But you said that you did see it, so I revisited as well.
- [102:45]
C
The one thing I can say about Legal Eagles that recommends it over every single other film on this list is that it is the only film in which Robert Redford performs his version of Singing in the Rain shirtless in his apartment.
- [103:00]
A
That's true.
- [103:01]
C
So in that sense, huge for you.
- [103:03]
B
Huge for you.
- [103:04]
C
It is a marvel. Otherwise, it's a not good romantic comedy thriller. I mean, they're trying to solve some sort of art heist.
- [103:16]
A
And the comedy thriller is very, very tricky. It's really not easy to pull off.
- [103:24]
C
And the plot keeps. It becomes more and more baroque. It's not very good. But he, you know, he shimmies his hips a little during the singing in the rain. He does. With the, you know, the big come on with the rain. I've got a smile on my face. So I enjoyed revisiting that.
- [103:40]
B
So funny. On paper, you would think that Jim Cash and Jack Epps Jr. The screenwriters of this movie, they had two movies this year. And if you looked on paper and you thought a romantic thriller with Robert Redford and Deborah Winger, and then this movie about these pilots directed by Tony Scott, what's gonna be the bigger movie of those two? Probably Legal Eagles, but the other movie is Top Gun.
- [104:03]
C
Yeah.
- [104:04]
B
And that was a bigger film. You haven't seen that film, Top Gun?
- [104:08]
A
No, I haven't seen that, but I have seen Legal Eagles both in the movie theater at the time and in preparation for this podcast. I wonder if it's a better movie if Redford and Deborah switch roles.
- [104:19]
C
Yes.
- [104:19]
B
Cool.
- [104:19]
C
Yeah, Interesting.
- [104:21]
A
I think maybe it's a better film.
- [104:22]
C
Right. And then he's doing the Harrison Ford and working girl type thing where he's just along for the ride.
- [104:27]
B
Right. This is the movie that Ivan Reitman made after Ghostbusters. You can almost sense that he's like, I'm gonna class it up now. I'm ready to be an adult now. And it doesn't work. And then he makes Twins, which is a lovely movie.
- [104:39]
A
And Legal Eagles was success, right?
- [104:42]
B
Yeah, it made $90 million. Yeah.
- [104:44]
A
It's a successful movie. Not hall of Fame.
- [104:47]
C
No, not going.
- [104:47]
B
I agree. Let's go to the Milagro Beanfield War.
- [104:50]
A
Yeah.
- [104:51]
B
Which is the next film that he directs in 1988, which I watched a little bit of yesterday. I didn't watch the entire film, but I wanted to be reminded of it, which I think is just a wonderful movie and very charming and very funny and again, not at all what you would think he would direct.
- [105:03]
A
I agree. And I saw this in movie theaters as well and remember it very fondly. Yeah.
- [105:07]
B
This is one of the. Probably the most unknown or forgotten of his directorial work and really of anything that he worked on, I would say over time, mostly because his cast, that is not as star studded, though. There's a lot of very good actors in the movie. But if people can track this movie down or can rent it online, I think it's really worth it. It's very entertaining. It's not hall of Fame worthy.
- [105:24]
A
Do you have it on Blue?
- [105:25]
B
I certainly do.
- [105:25]
A
I do, too.
- [105:26]
C
Okay. I see here that it was released by Kenobi.
- [105:30]
B
I mean, Keno Lorber. There are maybe like 15 Kino Lorber films in My Redford stack, which will be posted to social media soon.
- [105:37]
C
Oh, nice.
- [105:39]
B
Let's keep moving. 1990 Havana.
- [105:42]
C
Yes.
- [105:42]
B
When I was describing the relationship between Pollock and Redford and the way that they would indulge each other's dullness, this is the movie I was thinking of, which I had not seen before until this week.
- [105:53]
A
I had also not seen it until I watched it in preparation for this podcast.
- [105:57]
B
This is a movie about a pre Castro Cuban Cuba in which a poker player played by Robert Redford gets involved in with the wife of a communist rebel played by Raul Julia. Lena Olin plays the woman. This should be the sexiest, coolest movie ever made. It's so boring. Not good.
- [106:22]
C
Is he good?
- [106:23]
B
He's had about, like, six movies in this conversation.
- [106:24]
C
Is he good at playing poker?
- [106:26]
B
There's a couple of interesting poker scenes and a lot of very good character actions.
- [106:29]
A
Convincing.
- [106:31]
B
There's not a lot of, like, actual gameplay.
- [106:34]
C
Okay.
- [106:34]
B
We see cards on the table and we see some discussion, but you don't really. It's not. It's not exactly rounders.
- [106:38]
C
Okay.
- [106:39]
B
Fair to say.
- [106:40]
A
Fair to say.
- [106:42]
B
So this movie's red.
- [106:42]
A
Yeah, it's. It's just awkward. You really. I really feel, watching it, that Mr. Redford's heart isn't in it.
- [106:52]
B
Totally agree.
- [106:53]
A
It doesn't seem like he's. It seems like he knows it's not working. I feel like I can read on him, oh, you know, this isn't working.
- [107:00]
B
He's a little glazed over. The entire film kind of has like a scene st. Like a blank smile throughout most of the movie. Because he's supposed to be this kind of suave character moving through this illicit world, but it has no heat.
- [107:11]
A
This is. I put the movie on and I was watching, and I was maybe 20 minutes half an hour into it, and I thought, I'm watching Robert Redford, Lena Olin, Alan Arin. And I thought to myself, raul Julia should be in this movie. And then suddenly he appeared. He's uncredited. He didn't.
- [107:27]
B
Is that true?
- [107:28]
A
He is. He didn't. He wanted to be above the title as well, apparently with Mr. Redford and Ms. Olin, and they wouldn't give him that. So he said, well, then just don't credit me at all.
- [107:38]
B
I mean, he's killed within the first 45 minutes of the movie. Okay. Anyway, sorry. Sorry for the fan aheads out there. We're desperate to track this movie down after we ran it down. 1992 is a very important year for him. He has a big box office Success and directs a film he stars in Sneakers and he directs A River Runs Through. Through It.
- [107:57]
C
Yeah.
- [107:58]
B
Now these are.
- [108:00]
C
I think this is. Maybe this is when I came online with Robert Redford.
- [108:03]
B
I see. Yeah, it was A River Runs Through It. And your passion for fly fishing.
- [108:08]
C
Well, Brad Pitt is incredibly handsome in that movie. Just really, really intense stuff. But also, Sneakers was such a phenomenon.
- [108:17]
B
It was. And it is a beloved movie recently featured on the Rewatchables. I think this is Joanna Robinson's favorite movie of his. And it's a movie that I've always liked and not loved and. But it is a very. It's very personal to a lot of people, which is strange because it's an odd movie. Actually, when I saw you in New York, we talked about it a little bit, right? Yeah.
- [108:37]
A
Because I had never seen it before. I watched it for the. For the pod, and I don't know, I was so into it for the first half of the movie. The reveal of the conspiracy was so exciting. And then we come to find out it's Ben Kingsley in a bad hairpiece at, like, some suburban office park. It's like, this is the bad guy. It's a bit depressing.
- [109:01]
B
It's another film that has a lot of great pieces. You know, Sidney Poitier, David Strathearn, River Phoenix. Great cast, wonderful cast. Kingsley, Phil Alden Robinson. This is the movie he made after Field of dreams. And 2, 2 for 2 for Phil Alden Robinson. Now, again, this is a challenge to the. What is the purpose of this? Because I think for the 90s, you could make the case this is his film. Now, you can also say A River Runs through it or the next film we'll talk about could also be the choice.
- [109:30]
C
Let's talk about. Well, we should do A River Runs.
- [109:33]
A
Through it, which I just saw for the first time. I've never seen A River Runs through it. And I watched it on Blue.
- [109:38]
B
Did you like it?
- [109:39]
A
I did.
- [109:39]
B
It's very good.
- [109:40]
A
Really lovely.
- [109:40]
C
Yeah.
- [109:41]
B
Beautiful movie.
- [109:42]
A
I thought Frank Scheffer was really good.
- [109:44]
B
And at the time, it was as much Craig Scheffer as it was Brad Pitt, like Craig Scheffer had been in a series of movies up to that point. I think the program was the movie he made right before that, the college football movie. And so he was also becoming a very well known actor. My father loves this movie. This is one of the most dad movies ever made. And he showed it to me, I think, when I was 10 years old. And I like it quite a bit. I think it's really beautiful.
- [110:03]
A
Oh, yeah. Stomach punch for me at the end. There were a couple of punches in the stomach.
- [110:09]
B
Yeah.
- [110:09]
C
Yes, absolutely.
- [110:10]
B
Yeah. It's very effective. I think it's maybe just shy of the hall of fame, but it's a good movie.
- [110:15]
C
Yeah. We can yellow it.
- [110:16]
B
Let's. Okay, well, Yellow river runs through it. Do you want a. Yellow sneakers for the sake of conversation here?
- [110:20]
C
Sure.
- [110:20]
B
So we'll. Yellow sneakers. I can't believe we've just redded the natural. That was crazy. 1994 quiz show.
- [110:28]
A
Great.
- [110:28]
B
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did I skip something?
- [110:30]
C
Yes.
- [110:30]
B
Oh, sorry. What? I was.
- [110:31]
C
You skipped Indecent Proposal.
- [110:32]
B
Oh, I'm sorry. I skipped Indecent Proposal 1993.
- [110:34]
A
I'm talking about Indecent Proposal. Let's talk about Indecent Proposal.
- [110:39]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [110:40]
A
If you've been sitting at home snoozing through our podcast, you're. You're in the car. You're not really listening. Listen up, people, because we're going to talk about Indecent Proposal. So I had never seen this before. I watched it with Carrie. Noah. We'd never watched it. And so I watched it with Carrie.
- [110:53]
B
She.
- [110:53]
A
She knew the movie. She had seen it. Someone.
- [110:54]
B
Yeah. And I.
- [110:55]
A
The second half. So after.
- [110:57]
B
Great movie to watch with your wife.
- [110:58]
A
After Robert Redford sleeps with Demi Moore and she comes home to. To Woody Harrelson and he starts acting like a little bitch after she comes home for the second half of the movie. I was just screaming at the TV the whole time, you're not a man. You're less than a man. This movie is so ridiculous. Who wouldn't fuck Robert Redford for a million dollars?
- [111:25]
C
Who is that person? That is true. You're 100%.
- [111:28]
B
It's a fatally flawed film. Yeah.
- [111:30]
C
But also it has Robert Redford being like, I will fuck you and then give you a million dollars.
- [111:36]
B
He's very charming. He's wearing a wonderful watch. You know, he looks great. He's kind of. He's fully in his.
- [111:41]
C
His house is nice.
- [111:42]
B
You know, his. His late 50s at this point. He's very believable as this, you know, wealthy, social manipulator, someone who's, like, so successful that he's like, let's just. I'm just going to fuck with people. He was not a big fan of this movie, and he signed on because he thought it was an interesting psychological exploration of commitment and that he turned out to be an Adrian Line movie. And, you know, I like Adrian Lyon movies just as much as the next guy, but this Movie's, like, not actually that good, but it's really interesting to talk about.
- [112:13]
A
It's.
- [112:13]
B
And it was a huge hit.
- [112:16]
A
I think his biggest hit.
- [112:17]
B
Yeah.
- [112:17]
A
I think Mr. Red.
- [112:18]
B
Well, Avengers end game, but sure.
- [112:20]
A
Okay. All right.
- [112:21]
C
The first half of it is absolutely incredible. And you can't believe what you're watching. And, like, hugely, like, titillating and the best. Adrian, Lights. And it is a great. It's a. Like a movie as a reference, you know, now we.
- [112:36]
B
It went into the culture immediately.
- [112:37]
C
Exactly. And so that says something about it.
- [112:42]
A
It does. I. When Carrie and I watch movies at home, whether or not she's going to stay awake is always in question. There was no question when, in watching Indecent Proposals, she was wide awake throughout the entire film. So there is something about it that grabs the attention and that holds you. Maybe it's stupidity is one of the things that holds you to it. You're not a man. You're not a man.
- [113:06]
C
It's true. It's just also like, you made a deal.
- [113:09]
B
That's the thing. He knew what he was getting himself into.
- [113:12]
A
He knew absolutely what he was getting himself into. And now he's got a million dollars. Shut the fuck up.
- [113:19]
B
So I wouldn't put this in.
- [113:20]
C
Okay.
- [113:21]
B
But. Because I just don't think the movie is ultimately that good. Van Leethan said this is his favorite Robert Redford movie when we were outside with him.
- [113:28]
A
When Van makes his Robert Redford hall of Fame, you should absolutely put this in.
- [113:32]
C
I wouldn't put it in yellow.
- [113:34]
B
Okay, we'll yellow it for the sake of you. Okay. 1994 quiz show.
- [113:40]
C
Yes.
- [113:40]
B
Now, this is one of the first movies that made me feel smart, and I was like, I want to be closer to whatever's going on here. There is a kind of. Now 1. I love game shows.
- [113:52]
C
Yeah.
- [113:52]
B
I was going to say I love trivia quiz shows. I love the idea of a. A kind of hidden scandal. This movie is a really interesting kind of detective movie in some ways. Rob Morrow playing this kind of guy, investigating what's really happening behind the scenes of this quiz show. And it features a series of incredible.
- [114:14]
A
Performances and some incredible scenes in which to perform. Right. There is great individual scenes in this movie.
- [114:23]
B
Yeah. I said this about a recent movie that we did on the pod that like, the secret to great movies, not necessarily great writing or great art, but great movies, is just like one great scene after another. And this movie really has that. Very entertaining. Nominated for best Picture. It arrived in the year of the. I was gonna say Pulp Fiction. Forrest Gump, Shawshank, Bloodbath.
- [114:43]
C
Excuse me. What was the fifth film that was nominated in 1994 was?
- [114:48]
B
Sense and Sensibility.
- [114:49]
C
No, that is 1995. They're rereleasing it.
- [114:52]
A
Mermaids.
- [114:53]
C
No, that was in the 1980s.
- [114:55]
A
That was a joke.
- [114:57]
B
It was.
- [115:01]
C
You are, you're a disrespectful person. And it's funny that you're on the, the quiz show portion of this podcast.
- [115:09]
A
Fried Green Tomatoes.
- [115:11]
C
It was Four Weddings and a Funeral.
- [115:14]
A
Four Weddings and a Funeral.
- [115:16]
C
Yeah.
- [115:16]
A
It's very good movie.
- [115:17]
C
Okay.
- [115:20]
B
If we're not putting the natural in, I would want to put in a movie like Quiz show, which I just think is wonderful. Is it iconic in the same way? No. Is it even really very Red Fortian maybe? Not really.
- [115:32]
A
It's just superb.
- [115:33]
B
It's just really good.
- [115:34]
A
It's just really fucking good.
- [115:35]
B
Yeah. Now that would make it two directed films that he does not appear in going in. So I would yellow it if you wanted to come back to it.
- [115:43]
A
I think those are his two best directed films.
- [115:47]
B
I, I definitely agree.
- [115:48]
C
I'm fine with it. I. We can definitely yellow it.
- [115:51]
B
Let's yellow it. Let's yellow it for now. We gotta keep moving.
- [115:53]
A
I have a little trivia though. One brief thing. So I heard Bill Simmons talking about Robert Redford on a podcast with another fellow. They, they, they did a little Redford.
- [116:03]
B
Wesley Morris.
- [116:04]
A
No, it wasn't Wesley. It was another fellow, Brian Koppelman.
- [116:07]
B
Yes, yes.
- [116:08]
A
They talked about, and they talked about the slow clap. The introduction of the slow clap in Brubaker. Bill seems to think that that is the introduction of the slow clap in Brubaker. And it might be, I don't know. There's a slow clap in Quiz show at the end. And it all. I always bumped on it. It was just like, why? Why the slow clap? This movie is. It's real.
- [116:34]
B
Actually.
- [116:34]
A
Slow clap actually happened. It's a historic fact.
- [116:39]
B
I don't think it happened in Brubaker. For the record, that's one of the weirdest endings to a movie of all time.
- [116:43]
A
Isn't there a slow clap in Brubaker?
- [116:45]
B
I just mean in the real story that Brubaker is based on. I don't think that that happened any of Brubaker is utterly bizarre, for the record. Like the score and all the choices that are made.
- [116:55]
A
Anyway, actual slow clap, meaning earned slow clap.
- [116:58]
B
Well, if you keep this up, you'll get a slow clap at the end of this episode.
- [117:01]
A
I do not like an unearned slow clap.
- [117:04]
B
1996. Up close and personal.
- [117:06]
C
Yeah.
- [117:06]
A
This is my least favorite movie in the Robert Redford filmography.
- [117:09]
B
Wow.
- [117:10]
C
You just. You were not 12 in 1996. You just weren't. Top to bottom, you weren't there.
- [117:16]
A
When I look at something like, you.
- [117:17]
C
Heard the Celine Dion song.
- [117:18]
B
Do you know the name of his character in this film? No. It's Warren Justice. That's a little on the nose for Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunn, in my opinion.
- [117:30]
A
When I look at Havana, when I look at some of the other movies we've talked about that maybe don't come up, I can look at Havana and go, those are two artists who were trying a thing, and it didn't happen for them. When I look it up close and personal, I go, this is made by a corporation. This was made by producers and executives, and the artists got squeezed out of the process. That's what it looks like to me. And then a little investigation turns up. That's really what happened. I mean, John Gregory Dunn wrote a fucking book about how this movie got fucked up.
- [118:05]
B
Yes. Wonderful book. That's monster, right? Is that monster?
- [118:10]
C
Yeah. Here's the thing, is that he believed in her, you know, and took a chance on her when no one else did.
- [118:16]
A
No.
- [118:16]
C
And so then a star is born.
- [118:18]
A
That was the movie was already made.
- [118:20]
C
Career keeps going, you know, and he shows up, and then he discovers his own joy in work again, and she loses him, but she keeps doing the work.
- [118:33]
A
Amanda, are you telling me that you like this movie?
- [118:36]
C
I just. I remember. I remember this movie. And so because you love me is the Celine Dion song.
- [118:42]
B
If the Celine Dion song was not in the movie, would you care?
- [118:45]
C
Well, maybe not, but it was such a phenomenon at the time. Like, I remember being obsessed with this song, waiting for it to come on the radio, and then being sucked into the movie itself. I was also. Again, I was 12.
- [118:59]
B
So you see it in theaters at 12?
- [119:02]
C
Probably.
- [119:03]
B
Yeah.
- [119:03]
C
But, like, how many Michelle Pfeiffer movies had I seen at that point? Like, this is. I was coming late to two very, you know, famous and talented people. And I was at the exact right age for, like, the corporation machine to hand me this glop and be like. But see, she got, you know, she got a makeover, and then she learned to do more than the weather. And you can, too, as long as you have really handsome Robert Redford in your corner.
- [119:32]
A
Because I love you. Do you believe that this belongs.
- [119:36]
C
No, absolutely not. But we just need to acknowledge that it was really important.
- [119:40]
B
Just want to say the real true life story of Jessica Savage, the anchor whom this film is so sort of based on. It's a very sad story. She's also an alumni of Ithaca College. And at Ithaca College, she is like a saint. And there's like a scholarship named after her. And there was. I spent a lot of time learning about Jessica Savage. Her real story, her real life is quite interesting. This movie's a little gloppy, in my opinion.
- [120:04]
A
And how about that local station in Miami which is, you know, several stories high, employs hundreds of people? It's like, was that ever. Was it ever like that?
- [120:14]
B
I doubt it.
- [120:15]
A
I mean, right now it's, you know, eight people, you know, in a booth right now.
- [120:19]
B
It's. It's three people now. Three people. And this is Broadcast News 1998. The Horse Whisperer.
- [120:25]
C
Yeah.
- [120:27]
B
Starring and directed by Robert Redford.
- [120:29]
A
Yeah.
- [120:30]
C
Yeah.
- [120:30]
B
I have not seen this movie since 1998.
- [120:32]
C
Okay.
- [120:32]
B
I did not revisit it for this episode. You reminded me that I. Quite long.
- [120:35]
C
Well, I revisited it and did not remember, but relearned that it is 2 hours and 50 minutes long.
- [120:42]
A
2 hours and 5o.
- [120:44]
C
Yes.
- [120:45]
A
Is it really?
- [120:46]
C
Yes.
- [120:47]
A
Wow.
- [120:48]
C
I will be honest. I did not rewatch all 2 hours and 50 minutes. I fast forwarded to my hero, Chris and Scott Thomas, being a working woman on the go in New York and then swooning at the Nice Horseman. And then when they ride on the horses together, which they do at great length. Saw little ScarJo while I was fast forwarding. This movie came out after the English Patient, which I loved and was thus obsessed with Kristen Scott Thomas. And I guess I knew about Robert Redford from up close and personal. So it was another again, we can only be the teenagers that we were. And so I saw it at the time and thought it was like very serious. And of course now it's just like a.
- [121:34]
B
It's kind of forgotten. I mean, it was also very much the announcement of Scarlett Johansson as a young actor. And another movie that when you look at the component parts, script by Eric Roth and Richard Legravenes, shot by Robert Richardson.
- [121:50]
C
I mean, it looks.
- [121:51]
B
Edited by Hank Corwin, who edited jfk.
- [121:54]
A
It's amazing to watch all these Redford movies and to go and to realize the heads of departments are. It's just like always a team.
- [122:01]
B
A team always. This one in particular, though, is really the best of the best. And I just remembered this movie putting me to fucking.
- [122:08]
C
Well. Yeah, it's quite long.
- [122:10]
B
And it was also another movie that I think very much kind of Dominated the culture for the two months in the run up to its release because it seemed so important. Yeah. And then it didn't turn out. Saw it.
- [122:20]
A
98. Liked it. Want credit for saying at the time, I think that girl's going to be a big star. And I haven't thought about it since.
- [122:31]
B
Made $187 million. It was a three hour movie about a man and a young girl. And horses.
- [122:38]
C
Yes. And also Kristen Scott Thomas.
- [122:40]
B
Yes.
- [122:42]
C
You know, Press Love.
- [122:43]
B
And Chris Cooper. Really good cast.
- [122:45]
A
People like to see Robert Redford on screen.
- [122:48]
B
And a cowboy hat too. Okay, that's red. Let's go to 2000 and say the Legend of Bagger Vance will not be making it in.
- [122:56]
C
Yowza.
- [122:57]
A
Never seen it. Didn't want to watch it for this.
- [122:59]
B
I think.
- [123:00]
C
Really, really bad. I saw it. That one I did see in theaters. That's a no.
- [123:05]
B
Complete miscalculation across the board. That's the movie that Will Smith chose to make instead of the Matrix. So that happened. 2001. The Last Castle. I think we did. We both watched this for the first time. Yes, we did. You watched this for the first time as well?
- [123:18]
A
No.
- [123:18]
C
Tracey told me last night that you both watched it. It was one of the films that he watched on the plane.
- [123:24]
B
Did you watch this? No. Okay.
- [123:25]
C
Because this is about where I started running out of time and had to be selective.
- [123:29]
B
I wanted to watch this because I'd never seen it. And I like the Contender, Rod Lurie's movie. And Rod Lurie directed this movie, Return to Prison for Robert Redford. He plays. He is a general who has been convicted of a crime and sent to a military prison. James Gandolfini is the warden of this prison. And of course, because it's a prison movie, there needs to be an uprising of some sort. It's a fairly leaden drama, I thought set inside of a prison.
- [123:55]
A
It was more entertaining than I was anticipating.
- [123:57]
B
Okay. Yeah.
- [123:58]
A
I found the.
- [123:58]
B
I was a little disappointed.
- [123:59]
A
The climax, you know, gave me a couple of like dirty dozen ish, great escape thrills in that. In that vein.
- [124:06]
B
Okay.
- [124:07]
A
And Robert Redford taking his shirt off and hauling those rocks across the courtyard. Fuck you.
- [124:12]
B
Robert redford in his 60s.
- [124:14]
A
He's 65 years old.
- [124:16]
B
Fucking crazy.
- [124:17]
A
Just. And it's not made in a lab either. That body. Right. It's not made by machines.
- [124:22]
C
Powerful.
- [124:23]
B
He's just built that way.
- [124:24]
A
Gandolfini's miscast. I think.
- [124:28]
B
I wish he could have been allowed to do more things like this. Even if this one isn't Totally right.
- [124:33]
A
I totally agree.
- [124:34]
B
You know what I mean?
- [124:34]
A
Yeah, I do.
- [124:36]
B
Okay. Last castle's out. 2001 spy game now.
- [124:39]
A
I watched this for the first time yesterday.
- [124:41]
B
Did you?
- [124:41]
A
Yeah.
- [124:42]
B
This is a film with a big fan base and this is I guess considered maybe mid. Tier. Tony Scott. This is something we talked about with Van recently. Brad Pitt and Robert Redford coming together. A sort of baton passing moment. Shortly after Brad Pitt and Harrison Ford's baton passing moment in the Devil Zone with Alan Pakula. A movie, a director that he worked with. Spy Game. Just kind of your typical spycraft movie. The sort of aging veteran who knows more than the young buck and they're working together but on also can they trust one another. Very kinetic and crazy. Tony Scott filmmaking style. This movie also was a big success. This is a series of films in which he is still a huge box office star heading into the early 2000s, some four decades after he became a star. I like it. I don't have a strong feeling that it needs to be in. When it doesn't go in, all the bros will be like how could Spy Game not be in? Just going to put that out there for you. Any. Any thoughts?
- [125:39]
A
You know, I love the bros.
- [125:42]
C
I don't like this movie as much as I should given that it is a Tony Scott spycraft thriller starring Robert Redford and Brad Pitt. That's. It's just checking many boxes for me and it always feels a little forced and. But also that there is no real magic that there is something about like when a spy movie or a heist movie or anything when they. Are they gonna pull it off? The tension and the sense of exhilaration. I don't have that. Even though the camera is just going absolutely nuts around buildings the whole time. So I don't feel the need to fight for it. And I don't care about the bros. As discussed.
- [126:26]
A
Tony Scott, wow. He could really do that stuff. It was a real style that he had real sense of style. It's interesting to watch that stuff now. So start to date.
- [126:35]
B
Right. That.
- [126:36]
A
That stuff at the time seemed so.
- [126:38]
B
Sort of like futurist.
- [126:39]
A
Right. This was the future of movies. And now you look at it and you go oh, some of those sound effects and stuff. Some of that stuff is starting to date. The feature for the movie for me is Robert Redford. I see Redford is great in this movie.
- [126:52]
B
He is very good.
- [126:53]
A
Is really good. Really watchable. I It's not. It wouldn't be green for me. It was fun.
- [126:59]
B
I'm going to Yellow it out of. Out of a sense of nostalgia.
- [127:02]
C
Okay.
- [127:02]
B
I saw this movie in theaters in college. Had a nice time with my friends. 2004, the Clearing.
- [127:08]
A
I saw it. I watched it.
- [127:10]
B
I've never seen this, nor have I. I watched it.
- [127:12]
C
How was it?
- [127:13]
A
I liked it better than I thought I was gonna like it. I mean, all the scene. Robert Redford is an executive who gets kidnapped by Willem Dafoe. And Willem Dafoe is leading him out into the woods somewhere. And this is cross cutting with Helen Mirren, who is Robert Redford's wife. And she is trying to. You know, she's dealing with the FBI and putting together the ransom money. It's always crossing between the two stories. We come to realize at some point that the Redford Defoe plot line is all happening in one day, whereas the Helen Mirren plotline is happening over a period of weeks and maybe even months. Even though we're cross cutting between the two things.
- [127:55]
B
Interesting. That's clever.
- [127:57]
A
It feels very much like a French thriller from 1980. Something.
- [128:03]
B
Right.
- [128:04]
A
And I think if there were French actors playing the parts, it might be more respected.
- [128:08]
B
The director is Dutch, for the record.
- [128:10]
A
And it's his only film as a director.
- [128:12]
B
Right. Peter Jan Bruges.
- [128:15]
A
But, you know, you get to see Robert Redford and Willem Dafoe playing a lot of scenes together. Are they scenes that would really happen between a kidnapper and his victim? Probably not, but still, they're two very compelling actors working with each other. And then there's Helen Mirren dealing with Alessandro Nivolo, who plays their kid. And, you know, Helen Mirren's always very watchable. So I don't know. I liked it better than I thought I was gonna like it. It's not a great movie, but it doesn't belong in the hall of fame.
- [128:41]
B
Again, given that Amanda and I haven't seen it. It has to be read.
- [128:44]
C
Got it.
- [128:45]
B
That would be a first to put a movie in the hall of fame that we haven't seen. 2005, An Unfinished Life.
- [128:50]
A
Watched it.
- [128:51]
B
This is a loss of Hallstrom film.
- [128:53]
A
A loss of Hallstrom joint. I like him. You don't like him. Right. That's kind of. That's. We've found this divide.
- [128:59]
B
I think he's real soggy. Yeah. Yeah.
- [129:01]
A
I kind of enjoyed this. Again. I like. Did you watch it for this?
- [129:04]
B
I saw it when it came out. Yeah.
- [129:06]
A
Yeah.
- [129:06]
C
I didn't rewatch it either.
- [129:07]
A
Kind of liked it. I enjoyed it.
- [129:09]
B
I thought.
- [129:09]
A
Again, I thought Mr. Redford was very good. There's one too many plot lines. It's a little sentimental. The storyline about the abusive boyfriend played by Damian Lewis is very one note. But I thought Mr. Redford seemed very engaged in this movie. He seemed really kind of into the material.
- [129:30]
B
I think we'll be able to say that about many of these performances that are coming.
- [129:35]
A
I think he got to a point in his life and in his career when part of his mission became, here's a person aging, Here's a way to age. He aged on screen in a way that was very believable and real. I mean, obviously he was in amazing shape and a movie star and all the rest of it.
- [129:56]
B
But his face, you could see it. His face. He didn't fuck with his face. He aged.
- [130:01]
A
He aged and he kept working and he kept working in age appropriate roles.
- [130:06]
B
Unfinished Life is not going in. I'm sorry to you and to Lassa. 2006 he voices Ike in Charlotte's Web.
- [130:12]
C
That's the horse.
- [130:13]
B
The horse, yeah. And that makes all the sense in the world. From whispering to becoming, you know, really horse guy. That's not going in. 2007 Lions for Lambs. I cannot recall being more excited for a movie in my life.
- [130:25]
A
Wow.
- [130:26]
B
Robert Redford directing Meryl Streep and Tom Cruise in a political drama loosely based on real life events and the absolutely perilous state of our country at the time in the aftermath of the Iraq.
- [130:43]
C
War in 2011, when you are 25.
- [130:47]
B
And is also in the year in which Michael Clayton no Country for Old Men and There Will Be Blood and the Assassination of Jesse James and the whole host of 2007 movies are coming out. And I'm in that moment and thinking, has it ever been this good? And this movie stinks.
- [131:04]
C
It's so, so boring.
- [131:06]
A
Not good.
- [131:07]
C
Yeah, it's not a good film.
- [131:09]
B
Okay. I don't know what happened. He directed it. I mean, it's not a good script. The performances are not good. It's startling. Anyway, we can read it. 2010 the conspirator didn't watch it.
- [131:23]
A
And I'm working with the actor who plays John Wilkes Booth in that movie. He's a lovely guy named Toby Kebbel.
- [131:28]
B
I love good actor.
- [131:30]
A
Yeah. I really like him a lot. And he had told me some good Robert Redford stories which we don't have time for on here. But I didn't watch it. I don't know it.
- [131:38]
B
It's. It's not bad. I think it's more pleased with its dramatic structure than it is being a good movie. And you can kind of feel Redford like kind of losing the juice a little bit as a filmmaker. It's a. It's a little shaggier, I would say, than his early movies. Not bad, but not really worth writing home about.
- [131:56]
A
Did you see it?
- [131:56]
C
I didn't rewatch it. I saw it when it came out because I was in a big James McAvoy phase of life.
- [132:02]
B
Still am the company you keep. 2012, another film that he stars in and directs this film, I cited this recently because of one battle after another, which. Have you still not seen it?
- [132:13]
A
I've not seen one battle after another.
- [132:14]
B
God damn it. Just get it together, man.
- [132:17]
A
It's my failing. There's no good reason for it.
- [132:20]
B
It's my failing. Well, now it's overhyped and now you're going to go in expecting the moon and the sun. Two little kids.
- [132:23]
A
I don't what to tell you. I'm having to watch all this Redford material.
- [132:26]
B
Well, we appreciate you doing that.
- [132:28]
A
By the way, I've heard on recent pods Chris talking about.
- [132:33]
B
Chris who?
- [132:34]
A
Chris Ryan talking about rando stacked casts. He wants us.
- [132:41]
B
Yeah. You want in on that?
- [132:43]
A
I want this movie in consideration for rando stacked cast.
- [132:48]
B
This is a movie about a former member of the Weather Underground emerging some decades after the activities in the 1960s. Redford plays the man who has been working, I think, as a small town lawyer. Shia LaBeouf is a reporter. Kind of stumbles on this man and it's this question of sort of like, what was the work for in the 60s? What does life mean in the aftermath of it? A little bit of running on empty going on there and a little bit about like, what is privacy and what are you entitled to in the world? I think this is a really interesting movie. It's not perfect. Shia is much more controversial now, but I think he's very good in this. And to your point, Nick Nolte, Susan Sarandon and Julie Christie are all compatriots of his. Anna Kendrick is in this movie. A very young Anna Kendrick, a very young Brit Marling, Stanley Tucci, Chris Cooper, crazy cast.
- [133:37]
A
The trailer for the. You should watch the trailer. You know how that in the 80s and 90s, the trailer was like. They'd show you what the movie was going to be about, the first step. And then halfway through the trailer, they'd show you an actor you didn't know was in the movie. It's like, oh, holy shit. I didn't know Samuel Jackson was in this movie. The trailer for this keeps doing that. And it does it so often, it starts to look like too many cooks.
- [133:57]
B
It's just like this is.
- [133:58]
A
There's not enough interesting stuff for all these people to do.
- [134:01]
B
It's. I wish it was better. It's not bad. I wish it was better.
- [134:04]
A
There's some second act problems. It repeats it.
- [134:07]
B
Right.
- [134:07]
A
He goes to one. Oh, Sam Elliot. I don't think you mentioned Sam Elliot. He goes to one person and they say, well, you should go talk to this. And then he goes and talks that. Well, you should go talk to this person. It starts to double back on itself in a frustrating way. First and third acts are kind of interesting.
- [134:21]
C
I remember it being okay and interesting. It has kind of been outstripped in its subject matter by recent films.
- [134:29]
B
I think what this film reveals, which the conspirator reveals and even his next film reveals, is he's kind of lost the juice, you know, he's lost the ability to make something, an event. And that's just something that happens. That happens to everybody. And you get to a certain stage in your career and you've had enough movies in a row. I think Lions for Lambs really kind of deadened a lot of his might in the industry. And so the company you keep. Not a very big hit. In 2013, he's in this remarkable movie called All Is Lost, this JC Shandor movie in which he's the only person who appears. He's a man stranded on a boat in the middle of a storm, just trying to survive. And he's in his 70s when he makes this movie.
- [135:08]
A
76, I think.
- [135:09]
B
And he gives a great performance.
- [135:11]
C
Yeah, he's so good. And he. I mean, there's almost no dialogue. It is just him doing stuff.
- [135:17]
A
It is the genre of movie that started with Jeremiah Johnson of Robert Redford doing things you can't do.
- [135:24]
B
And surviving. Yeah, and surviving. Now there's a case for this movie in the hall of fame because it is the late stage. Yeah, I would say his last. Maybe not his last. Great. There's a movie I like coming up as well.
- [135:37]
C
There's another really good one that I. If we're gonna do one like the last Robert Redford.
- [135:42]
B
Okay.
- [135:42]
C
I'd like to yellow that movie is Avengers Endgame. Okay.
- [135:45]
B
We're about to get to Marvel. Don't worry.
- [135:47]
C
No, all his loss is remarkable.
- [135:49]
B
We'll yellow it.
- [135:50]
A
Yeah.
- [135:51]
B
Great. 2014, Captain America, the Winter Soldier. He plays Alexander Pierce.
- [135:55]
A
I didn't see it.
- [135:57]
C
What?
- [135:57]
B
Good movie. Good movie. Really good comic book movie, for sure.
- [136:00]
C
So what is Alexander Pierce's? Role in the government during Captain the Winter Soldier.
- [136:07]
B
I can't recall if he's the head of the CIA or the Secretary of Defense or he's one of those critical decision makers.
- [136:17]
C
Okay.
- [136:17]
B
And it is revealed quite dramatically.
- [136:19]
C
Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask.
- [136:20]
B
That he's Hydra.
- [136:22]
C
Right. Okay.
- [136:22]
B
And he's a traitor to his country.
- [136:24]
C
Tracy's nodding knowingly. Yeah.
- [136:26]
A
And there's a Three Days of the Condor.
- [136:30]
C
Something very, very they would like. They're happy that you said that.
- [136:34]
B
Yeah. And the Russos talked about that a great deal in the run up to the film, that this was their conspiracy thriller. It's really just a pretty good action movie, I think is a better way to describe it. Anyhow, that's not going in a Walk in the Woods, Bill Bryson adaptation.
- [136:47]
A
I feel bad. I didn't see it. And Nick Offerman's in this movie. And now we're starting to get into the weird area of movies that Mr. Redford made with actors. I know. And it's very.
- [136:57]
B
You ignores your friend's work.
- [136:59]
A
Well, it's frustrating for me, too, because I never met him. I didn't get to work with him. I don't know. So I'm jealous. I'm jealous of him.
- [137:06]
B
I'm surprised by that.
- [137:07]
A
I'm jealous of Toby. You know, about 20, 25 years ago, I was doing some readings with Amy Redford, his daughter. We were just doing. You know, we were in a little group that was reading plays once a week in New York. And, boy, I. I loved her. She was just so. Such a lovely, thoughtful, talented person and didn't seem at all fucked up from being the daughter of an extravagantly famous person. I just really liked her a lot. But I never. And of course, we know so many people who've gone through Sundance in various forms, and he was very hands on at Sundance. He wasn't just a figurehead. He was walking around with legal pads and giving notes and watching movies and stuff. He was very engaged in that work.
- [137:49]
B
Well, he came to be tortured by the festival in a lot of ways because of how big it became and how corporate it became, which was not at all his intention. And he talked about that all the time, that he didn't like it, but he did. I mean, he asked Ryan Coogler, you know, I mean, like, he was watching people's movies, you know, in the 2010s and giving them feedback. A Walk in the woods is not going to go in. Now, you. I know you just saw Truth for the first Time, which I think is just an awful. A terrible movie. I really think it's a complete misjudgment in terms of how that story is told.
- [138:15]
A
I liked it better than you did.
- [138:17]
B
I think he's good in it. It's not really about Redford. It's the way that is it. Mary McNamara, Mary Mapes. Mary Mapes, excuse me, is positioned in that movie. And even Cate Blanchett's performance can mostly do no wrong for me. But I have an allergy to that movie. It's not going in.
- [138:34]
A
No, I wouldn't argue for it to go in. It does ring the bell. End of television journalism in this country, and especially the end of CBS News.
- [138:46]
B
Journalism, and truly does. It's an important story. I just don't think it's very well told. 2016, Pete's Dragon. The first of two movies he makes with David Lowery. Disney film. Nice performance from Redford.
- [138:58]
C
Okay. Who does he play?
- [139:02]
A
Pete's dragon's boss, a local man who.
- [139:04]
B
Is helping, I think his grandchildren, one of whom has befriended a dragon.
- [139:09]
A
I just gave Disney a great idea. Okay, Pete's dragon's boss.
- [139:15]
B
Just cut that out so that we don't give that to them for free. So then he can email Walt Disney's great, great grandson and we can get some cash for Tracy's blu ray collection. 2017, the discovery.
- [139:27]
C
Yeah.
- [139:28]
B
Have you seen this movie?
- [139:29]
C
No.
- [139:29]
A
No, I missed it. No.
- [139:30]
B
Oh, this is a pretty good movie. Him and Jason Segel again.
- [139:35]
A
A friend of mine who got to work with Redford. I didn't get to work with him. I even thought about calling a few of these people and saying, you got a good Robert Redford story. But then we don't have time for all that.
- [139:44]
B
Okay, well, we can move on. I think the Discovery is not a bad movie. It's on Netflix right now. 2017, our souls at night. You said you watched this. I did.
- [139:50]
A
I did watch it this morning.
- [139:51]
C
Yeah.
- [139:51]
B
Okay.
- [139:52]
A
Lovely.
- [139:54]
B
Not going in?
- [139:55]
C
I don't think so. It's great. He reunites with Jane Fonda. Um, it's sad. I think all, like, the neighbors and sons need to mind their own business. But they are, you know, they both continued to work well past what we, you know, expect of. Of. Of movie stars, especially movie stars of their caliber. And I'd like Jane. They are plausible old people in this. You know, they're not trying to be versions of themselves in old people clothing. So they're good. And it was sad, but I don't think it needs to be in the.
- [140:33]
A
Hall of Fame, directed by Ritesh Batra, who made just a great movie called the Lunchbox. If you don't know it, you should absolutely watch the Lunchbox. Terrific movie. And it's very much in the same mold. It's very gentle. It's very human. There's not a lot of event to. But it's personal and it's really lovely. And I think they're both great in the movie. I would not put it. I don't think it's hall of Fame.
- [140:58]
B
But not in the hall of fame. Yeah. 2018. The old man and the Gun.
- [141:01]
A
This is my most disappointed that I didn't get a chance. I didn't get to it.
- [141:06]
B
This movie is an A for me. Wonderful. Really, really good.
- [141:10]
C
It's really, really.
- [141:12]
B
Yeah. If you don't like this movie, I'll be stunned.
- [141:14]
C
And it's a great Redford performance. And. And it had that magic you were watching at the time. And, you know, it's like, you know, one last game. And his performance has aspects of that, but it's still also very charming. And it's. I mean, it's very watchable. This is the one that I would put in for late period Redford.
- [141:33]
B
It is my favorite, for sure. It's a certain kind of a. It is as though the guy from the sting survives 45 years, 35 years, whatever it is. 45 years. And is still kind of hustling.
- [141:45]
C
Yeah.
- [141:46]
B
In this story, he's a bank robber who robs banks without any weapons. He just goes in and convinces people to give him money. And he's got tremendous charm. He's losing his hearing in the film, and he's playing that disability really interestingly. He and Sissy Spacek have amazing chemistry together. I love this movie. This is one of my favorite movies. David. I'm friendly with David Lowery, but this is really, I think, an excellent film.
- [142:07]
A
Well, I have nobody to blame but myself. I just didn't get to it.
- [142:11]
B
I ran. Maybe on the plane ride home, maybe. If you haven't had your fill. 2019, Avengers Endgame. His final screen performance now is.
- [142:19]
A
I'm sorry. I'm really not trying to be cute. Is this the one Carrie is in? Carrie in a movie with Robert Redford?
- [142:25]
C
No. She's in, right?
- [142:27]
B
Yes. And then she. You didn't successfully negotiate to get her into end game.
- [142:33]
A
I don't want to start that all up again.
- [142:35]
B
To the aggregators, Tracy Letts has said here that the Marvel Corporation screwed his family out of house and home.
- [142:42]
A
Oh, my God.
- [142:44]
C
How do you feel?
- [142:46]
B
Did you like that? Did you like being aggravated? They just did a hologram, right?
- [142:49]
C
Or they did a hologram or something.
- [142:50]
B
I think a different person voiced it.
- [142:52]
A
I have not seen it, so I don't.
- [142:53]
C
Oh, okay.
- [142:53]
B
Let's watch it after this. We've been sitting here for three hours. We can sit down for another three.
- [142:57]
A
You know, I read those Avengers comic books when I was a kid, and I loved them. Consider the fails of the Avengers.
- [143:06]
B
The old man and the golem will make yellow. For the moment. Avengers endgame is not gonna be green. Much to the dismay of Rivers. No, one very short scene. It's cute, though. The scene that he's in is. And kind of. It is actually quite critical to the movie.
- [143:18]
C
And he's Hydra still in that.
- [143:21]
B
And you know what they say when you're in Hydra?
- [143:22]
C
What?
- [143:22]
B
Hail Hydra.
- [143:23]
C
Oh, okay.
- [143:24]
B
They whisper to each other's ear. They say, hail Hydra.
- [143:26]
A
Hydra. You cut off a head and two heads grow back.
- [143:29]
B
Well, that's the idea, yes. But Hydra is a secret organization, a ship shadow operation operating right underneath the surface of the American government.
- [143:37]
A
Starts with agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. right in the comics. I think it started in agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. nick Fury.
- [143:42]
C
Okay.
- [143:43]
B
What happens if Fury is played by Sam Jackson? He's a critical figure in these stories.
- [143:46]
A
I read these comments.
- [143:48]
C
What happens to Robert Redford's character, Alexander Payne?
- [143:52]
B
He has a very.
- [143:54]
C
Pierce. Excuse me, apologies to Alexander Payne.
- [143:58]
B
No, that would be an interesting. He has a tort affair with Demi Moore at the end of the film.
- [144:03]
A
Weird.
- [144:04]
B
Weird, unexpected, odd stroke from Marvel, but something they wanted to do.
- [144:08]
A
He paid her a million dollars.
- [144:10]
B
Hopefully he made more than that. So we stopped greening things in 1980.
- [144:16]
C
Right.
- [144:17]
A
I have to pee.
- [144:21]
B
Leave that in. Okay, we got to. We got to figure this out now. So I'm just going to read you the greens that we've selected already. Okay? The greens right now, as it stands, are Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Downhill Racer, the Sting, the Way We Were, Three Days of the Condor, all the President's Men and Ordinary People. That's seven films. Oh, there are quite a few yellows. I'm going to read them to you right now. Jeremiah Johnson, the Candidate, the Hot Rock, A River Runs Through It, Sneakers, Indecent Proposal, Quiz Show, Spy Game, All Is Lost, the Old man and the gun. That's 10 yellows. We have to choose three. Now, keep this in mind. You can choose one, and you can also choose a blue for yourself that you're bringing with you in your satchel. And you're saying I can show you in the museum all this beautiful work from Robert Redford, but if you come over here and look in my bag, I've got this beauty and show it off.
- [145:21]
A
When you read that list of yellows, I. My immediate reaction is, well, the candidate's the best movie.
- [145:28]
C
Yeah, I would agree.
- [145:29]
B
I agree. And I will say, let's do that together. We'll make that.
- [145:32]
C
There we go. That's green. That's very easy.
- [145:34]
B
That's very easy. Now, this is a challenge. I'd like to hear your. Your. Your takes you want to do you want to go to bat for anything in particular?
- [145:45]
A
Rip through the yellows one more time.
- [145:47]
B
Jeremiah Johnson, The Hot Rock, A River Runs Through It, Sneakers, Indecent Proposal, Quiz Show, Spy Game, all is Lost, and the Old man and the Gun.
- [145:58]
A
I know what my two would be, but again, I don't. It's your podcast. My two would be Jeremiah Johnson and Quiz Show.
- [146:06]
B
Okay.
- [146:06]
C
Okay.
- [146:08]
B
What would your two be?
- [146:09]
C
I was going to suggest that we do Jeremiah Johnson for Tracy because he felt strongly about that.
- [146:15]
B
Wonderful.
- [146:16]
A
And.
- [146:19]
C
Quiz show is nice, but I really like the Old man and the Gun personally. And we don't. We currently still end at 1980, so.
- [146:29]
B
I would do that. I would say Jeremiah Johnson goes in.
- [146:32]
C
Yeah.
- [146:33]
B
The Old man and the Gun goes in. And then there's room for blue.
- [146:38]
A
The fact that I've not seen one of the 10 movies on the list is all on me and not on you or on Mr. Redford. Now, if you guys feel strongly about that, you should do it now.
- [146:49]
B
That means that there is no sneakers and no the natural on this list.
- [146:56]
C
Which we did not even yellow. Would you like to give a yellow to this?
- [146:59]
B
I mean, it probably should be a yellow. Okay. All right.
- [147:00]
C
Give it a yellow.
- [147:01]
B
It's a pretty important movie in his career.
- [147:03]
C
That's fine.
- [147:04]
A
Look, if the green is not real, isn't the yellow even less real?
- [147:09]
B
Good news. Nothing is real. And this is all a fantasy. This is all sprung from a sad boy's mind.
- [147:18]
A
I'm comfortable with everything you're talking about.
- [147:20]
C
I feel good about it. I mean, it. Really. It is.
- [147:24]
B
If you could choose one more, what would you choose? Would you choose up close and Personal?
- [147:29]
C
No, I think that I would probably do either Hot Rock or Indecent Proposal.
- [147:35]
B
Okay, so you'll take Indecent Proposals. I'll take the Hot Rock. What will you choose? Will you choose Kwisha?
- [147:40]
A
Yeah, I'll put Kusho on.
- [147:41]
C
That's a good. That's representative sure.
- [147:44]
B
So your hope here, you're saying everybody.
- [147:46]
A
Got the answers but you?
- [147:51]
B
Are you more of a Charles Van Doren? Who do you relate to most in that film? Paul Schofield. I knew you were gonna say that. Yeah. I've been POD with you too long. I think that's it. Yeah, I think we did. How do you feel, Amanda?
- [148:07]
C
I feel okay. So we have, you know, as editors and writers and people constructing. We have nine movies from 1969 to 1980.
- [148:21]
A
And that's often the case with you guys constructing these lists. People hit the sweet spot. Right.
- [148:26]
B
Newman had a nice spread.
- [148:28]
C
This is a pretty unusual concentration of which is in keeping with the career. Like, to me, this list tells no lies. But, you know, I suppose people will be miffed that Sneakers didn't even get a blue.
- [148:46]
B
Just not one of my movies. The Natural is going to be the thing that people are going to bang about.
- [148:50]
C
Okay, well, they can start a podcast.
- [148:53]
B
You know, that's a healthy way to create a dialogue.
- [148:58]
C
Now, if you would like to, pun intended, go to bat for it right now.
- [149:02]
B
I literally don't have.
- [149:03]
C
Why does she shoot him?
- [149:06]
B
I don't remember. I'm sure there's a good reason.
- [149:08]
C
What's going on?
- [149:09]
A
Let me test a couple of things. Do you guys believe, just straight up, Old man in the Gun versus All Is Lost? Are you.
- [149:19]
B
It's a personal preference thing. And I would prefer the Old man in the Gun.
- [149:22]
A
You lean towards me, too.
- [149:23]
B
All Is Lost. Possibly a better. Possibly a more challenging and interesting performance. But Old man in the Gun, I think, ultimately a more enjoyable film. And I think he's used very well.
- [149:37]
A
Ordinary People, the only director credit. Are you guys comfortable with that in the hall of Fame?
- [149:44]
B
Well, you've got Quiz show in your blues and Quiz Show. I love Quiz Show. Also not available on Blu Ray. The fuck? What the fuck?
- [149:54]
A
Okay, I'm good with that.
- [149:59]
C
No, I just. I'm, you know, examining.
- [150:01]
B
You've got the Way we were. Right?
- [150:03]
C
Yeah. This is important.
- [150:06]
B
You know, what was really moving was you guys all saying, like, downhill Racer.
- [150:09]
C
Of course, Downhill Racer rules.
- [150:10]
B
Okay, great.
- [150:11]
C
And we need to be interesting and we need to speak to our passions.
- [150:14]
B
I couldn't agree more. I think that just about does it. So let's just for the public record, we're going to read the Greens. Do you want to read the Greens, Amanda?
- [150:21]
C
I'd love to. Okay, we have Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Downhill Racer, Jeremiah Johnson, the Candidate, the Sting, the Way We Were, Three Days of the Condor, all the President's Men, Ordinary People and the Old man and the Gun.
- [150:37]
B
My blue pick is the Hot Rock. What's your blue pick?
- [150:39]
C
Indecent Proposal.
- [150:40]
B
What's yours?
- [150:40]
A
Quiz Show.
- [150:42]
B
Where can we find you? Tracy Letts. What do you like? What do you. What do you. Yeah, what do you want to. Is there anything you're working on, you'd like to promote?
- [150:49]
A
I'm not here to promote it.
- [150:50]
C
Okay.
- [150:51]
B
I don't.
- [150:52]
A
Come on.
- [150:52]
B
You've given an unusual amount of time to this project.
- [150:56]
A
I love this podcast. I love both of you so much. That's why I did it, because I love you guys and I love this podcast. I love being here and being part of this.
- [151:04]
B
Well, we love you.
- [151:05]
C
Yes.
- [151:05]
B
Thank you for doing it. You know who never says that at the end of an episode is Chris Ryan. He never says that. And that in the, in the race for third chair, it's true. There's a clear leader right now.
- [151:14]
A
There you go. Yeah. Is. What's his name three name director, Paul Thomas Anderson. No, no, no. Your friend who does this podcast, Alex Ross Perry. Does he say that at the end of a podcast?
- [151:24]
B
Alex has never said anything nice to me ever.
- [151:26]
C
No, he just makes a lot of memes.
- [151:28]
B
Yeah.
- [151:28]
A
And yet he's lobbying to be part of the High Council.
- [151:32]
B
Is that. Well, I mean, a lot of people want to be part of the High Council. You can't believe the number of mostly men who would like to join us the next time we do this podcast, which will be not.
- [151:45]
A
That sounded disrespectful to Alex Ross Perry. I don't mean disrespectful. I'm a 60 year old man blanking on a name after three hour podcast.
- [151:53]
B
No, no, no. He needs to earn the right to be invited to that discussion. And he can start by kissing my ass on my own show. And until he does so, until he does so for Amanda, he'll have to observe the council through a window. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode. We'll be back next week. So we're recording this in the past and in the future on the Monday after this.
- [152:19]
C
Okay.
- [152:20]
B
We will be doing a watch along podcast. Watching the film the Way of Water. Oh my God, have you seen the film?
- [152:26]
A
No, no, no.
- [152:27]
C
Neither is Chris Ryan. Chris Ryan, who will be watching it for the first time.
- [152:30]
A
Is that. Wait a minute. He's watching it for the first time?
- [152:33]
B
Well, yeah.
- [152:34]
A
Yes, but has he seen the first one?
- [152:36]
B
No, no. Well, we'll see if he will have seen it before. Then.
- [152:41]
A
Oh, okay.
- [152:42]
B
But maybe he won't.
- [152:43]
A
All right.
- [152:43]
B
What do you think about that? See you then.