The ‘Shrek’ Pod

Summary

The Big Picture – Episode: The ‘Shrek’ Pod Released: May 30, 2025

Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Bobby Wagner (Farewell Episode)

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Introduction: A Special Tribute

In this heartfelt episode of The Big Picture, hosts Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins, alongside producer Bobby Wagner, come together to celebrate and bid farewell to Bobby, whose contributions have been pivotal to the show's success. The episode centers around the beloved Shrek franchise, chosen by Bobby as his farewell gesture.

Bobby Wagner’s Departure and Shrek Selection

[02:00] Sean Fennessey:
"Picture, a conversation show about two old pals. I'm talking, of course, about Shrek, the Ogre and Bobby Wagner."

Bobby Wagner announces his departure from The Big Picture, expressing gratitude and fond memories. To honor his time with the show, Bobby selected the first two Shrek films as topics for this special episode, emphasizing their personal significance and cultural impact.

Sharing Memorable Moments: Clips from the Show

Bobby curates four standout clips from past episodes, each symbolizing joyous and pivotal moments in the show's history.

[12:42] Bobby Wagner:
"We did it. We did it, everybody."
[13:00] Bobby Wagner:
"Parasite wins best picture. I think my favorite part of that clip is that you can hear the people who are shooting it on video."

These clips not only highlight significant achievements, such as Parasite winning Best Picture, but also personal milestones like attending live shows and memorable recording sessions.

Behind the Scenes: Technical Anecdotes and Challenges

Bobby reminisces about his early days at The Ringer, sharing anecdotes about technical glitches and the learning curve of producing the podcast.

[08:43] Amanda Dobbins:
"Does that anxiety ever go away?"

[09:50] Bobby Wagner:
"Every single time I have a very vivid memory of covering jam session... 'Hey, Amanda, The CPU overload happened.'"

These stories illustrate the dedication and resilience required to produce a consistently engaging show, especially during challenging times like the pandemic.

Deep Dive into Shrek: Cultural Impact and Legacy

Bobby and the hosts engage in an in-depth discussion about why Shrek remains a culturally significant film.

[26:56] Sean Fennessey:
"But it is in the one for one of Bobby leaving episodes. So in a way it's more prestigious than 25. 25."

[31:39] Amanda Dobbins:
"It's very smart, Bobby. And again, like plays into my understanding of this is really like the cultural bridge between people our age and people your age."

Bobby argues that Shrek serves as a bridge between generations, introducing younger audiences to sophisticated humor and internet culture through its clever writing and memorable characters. The film's ability to spawn enduring memes is highlighted as a testament to its lasting influence.

Animation and Humor: Breaking the Mold

The conversation delves into the innovative animation style and humor that Shrek brought to the animated film industry.

[32:34] Amanda Dobbins:
"I was like, wow, this is really ugly."

[33:18] Bobby Wagner:
"My grand theory about Shrek is that it's the first time that the movies and the memes truly became one."

The hosts discuss how Shrek defied traditional animation aesthetics, embracing a style that straddles the uncanny valley while delivering rapid-fire, layered jokes that appeal to both children and adults.

Character Analysis: Voices and Performances

Mike Myers’ portrayal of Shrek and Cameron Diaz’s Fiona are scrutinized for their contributions to the film’s success.

[49:30] Bobby Wagner:
"Mike Myers really likes the character. He records the entire track in a normal American accent... but then at the last minute he says he wants to try the Scottish accent."

The decision to have Myers adopt a Scottish accent added a unique flavor to the character, enhancing Shrek’s comedic and endearing qualities. Cameron Diaz’s performance as Fiona is praised for bringing depth to the princess archetype, making her relatable and strong.

Shrek’s Enduring Popularity and Future Prospects

The hosts speculate on the anticipation surrounding Shrek 5 and the franchise’s ability to maintain relevance.

[77:49] Amanda Dobbins:
"Stop it."
[77:50] Bobby Wagner:
"I swear to you."

Discussion includes fan reactions, the potential impact of new voice actors like Zendaya, and the challenges of evolving the franchise while preserving its core essence. The excitement and skepticism surrounding the upcoming installment are palpable, reflecting the franchise’s significant place in pop culture.

Closing Tributes: Honoring Bobby Wagner

In the finale, Sean and Amanda express their deep appreciation for Bobby’s dedication and the invaluable role he played in shaping The Big Picture. Bobby shares his heartfelt farewell, reminiscing about the journey and the bonds formed over years of collaboration.

[85:00] Sean Fennessy:
"Bobby, you are like my baseball brother for life."
[86:30] Bobby Wagner:
"It's surreal that it's been this long and that it's ending like this. When I first started working with you guys, I was 22. It's like actually very upsetting for me to think back on the 22-year-old version of myself trying to represent myself as well as possible."

The episode concludes with warm wishes for Bobby’s future endeavors and a promise to continue celebrating his legacy through future Shrek-focused podcasts.

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Notable Quotes

• Sean Fennessey [02:00]:
  "Picture, a conversation show about two old pals. I'm talking, of course, about Shrek, the Ogre and Bobby Wagner."

• Bobby Wagner [12:42]:
  "We did it. We did it, everybody."

• Amanda Dobbins [31:39]:
  "It's very smart, Bobby. And again, like plays into my understanding of this is really like the cultural bridge between people our age and people your age."

• Sean Fennessey [85:00]:
  "Bobby, you are like my baseball brother for life."

Conclusion

This final episode of The Big Picture serves as both a loving tribute to the departing producer Bobby Wagner and a comprehensive exploration of the Shrek franchise. Through personal anecdotes, technical insights, and cultural analysis, Sean, Amanda, and Bobby celebrate the enduring legacy of Shrek, while also reflecting on the meaningful relationships and milestones that have defined the show. Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation for how a seemingly simple animated film can weave itself into the fabric of generational identity and internet culture.

Transcript

[Sean Fennessy]

Exciting news, Chicago movie lovers. We're coming for you next month.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We're headed to the Windy City for a live show at the historic Steppenwolf Theater and we could not be more excited. Mark your calendars for Monday, July 21.

[Sean Fennessy]

Tickets go on sale next Wednesday, June 4 at 12pm Central Time and more information will be available [e-mail] events.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Again, we'll be at the Steppenwolf Theater in Chicago on Monday, July 21, and you can grab your tickets next Wednesday, June 4 beginning at 12pm Central Time. Head to theringer.com events for more information soon.

[Sean Fennessy]

Hope to see you there. This episode is brought to you by the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit Card. This is an ad for the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mom or grabbing a coffee with your dog, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Max the HBO Original Comedy Special Gerard Carmichael, Don't Be Gay is now streaming on max. Emmy winning comedian Jarrod Carmichael returns to the stage and in his boldest special yet, bringing his sharp wit, unfiltered honesty, and the kind of vulnerability that's made his voice truly one of a kind. Fresh off his groundbreaking docu series, Carmichael dives even deeper, sharing his singular take on life, masculinity and what it means to be himself. Don't miss Gerard Carmichael, Don't Be Gay now streaming on max. I'm Sean Fennessy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Amanda Dobbins, and this is the Big.

[Sean Fennessy]

Picture, a conversation show about two old pals. I'm talking, of course, about Shrek, the Ogre and Bobby Wagner. We have coordinated a very special episode this Friday because Bobby Wagner, our beloved longtime producer on the show, a linchpin of the big picture, a person without whom we would not have the show in its current form is moving on from the ringer and has moved on from our show. And so we wanted to pay tribute to him. And so we asked him, what would you like to do, Bob? What movie would you like to spend time on? What should we do to explore your truest inner self? And you have chosen the first two Shrek films?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

So one.

[Bobby Wagner]

Okay, first of all, in my defense, thank you guys for having me it's so great to be back here. I've missed you guys very much and I will continue to miss you guys. I love you guys too. Amanda. It was Amanda's idea to be like, you should send us off with a movie that is important to you, preferably that we haven't seen. Can I even find a movie that you two guys haven't seen? Like neither of you guys have seen that is important enough to me. That is not just like a straight up kids movie, like a 25 minute kids movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, you did.

[Bobby Wagner]

You did.

[Sean Fennessy]

You nailed one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And. And I think of it often when I think of you, but I thought you did a great job. Would you like to read the entire. Do you have the list that you sent us?

[Bobby Wagner]

Oh, I do have the list. Yeah. Let me find that for you guys real quick.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought this was a good list.

[Bobby Wagner]

The list was Shrek 1, 2, 3, or 4. And I believe Sean's response was that 3 and 4 are hot garbage and we can't talk about them.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think that's true.

[Bobby Wagner]

Spirit Stallion of the Cimarron, the Matt Damon horse movie that you guys made fun of. Oh, right on the Matt Damon hall of Fame.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. So there's one that we haven't seen.

[Bobby Wagner]

Well, it's DreamWorks, so we will be talking about it.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's actually related to this movie in a very specific way.

[Bobby Wagner]

It is Harriet the Spy Scenic Dynamite. Yeah. I'm sure you saw it. Yeah, well, I had a sister. I have a sister that's five years older than me. So that was important to me.

[Sean Fennessy]

I do. It was one of the first books that I bought for my daughter while knowing I was not gonna be able to read it to her until she was 6. Oh, that's nice. But I'm pretty sure I saw it rip Michelle Trachtenberg, obviously. I saw it as a kid.

[Bobby Wagner]

Incredible movie. And then the other three that I mentioned that I knew you guys had definitely seen, but that are just young millennial iconography, which are Freaky Friday.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bobby Wagner]

Holes. And the sandlot.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Holes. What's holes?

[Sean Fennessy]

I knew you were gonna say that. I knew this was gonna happen.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What is it?

[Sean Fennessy]

Explain Holes, Bob.

[Bobby Wagner]

Holy shit.

[Sean Fennessy]

I've seen holes.

[Bobby Wagner]

Holes was like a YA novel written by this guy named Lewis Sacker. It was very common to a sign in like elementary school for people of my age. This is like one of the first books where you read. It's like a coming of age story of sorts. And it then was turned into a movie with Shia LaBeouf as he was like, making his transition out of like, the even Stevens TV movie universe into like, quote unquote, real acting, I guess has Jon Voight in an insane performance. Sigourney Weaver pitched up to 11. I really love holes. I think it's a fantastic. It's a masterpiece.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it's like in my mind, he goes to camp. Movie.

[Bobby Wagner]

He go, yes, he goes to camp instead of going to, like, juvie more or less for a crime that he did not commit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Bobby Wagner]

And then he digs holes. You know what you do in holes? You dig holes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

All right. And then. And then he learns about himself or does he break out from the camp.

[Bobby Wagner]

Or does he uncover some lore family? He is definitely vindicated. Spoiler alert for holes. Everyone listening at the time. Did Jon Voight vindicated?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did Jon Voight do it? Spoiler If.

[Bobby Wagner]

But if by it you mean save Hollywood, then yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm glad you. I'm glad we all chose Shrek together. Shrek recently came up on the Gen Z episode that you hosted. And Shrek is a very, I guess, meaningful and also soon to be again, relevant film because Shrek 5 is coming soon.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I did think while watching this and I thought about the Gen Z conversation, Bob. I thought about your choice. I do think this is like a generational turning point movie. It is very significant. You made a great choice. I think this is how I know that you and I, you know, live in different times. And that's okay. It's really, really good. But I know that this is so important to you and to everyone younger than you. Correct. And I know I saw this movie in theaters. You know, like, I was there. I lived Shrek, probably even Shrek 2. But it means something different. It hits differently to the younger people. And so it's good that we're having this generational exchange with this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

I agree. I think it's a good choice. And we will dig deep into these two films and what they mean and why they continue to resonate. Before we do that, though, let's just talk about your history with the show. You were not the first producer of the show. Zach Mack was the original producer of the Big Picture and he was with us for a short time. And then. So what is your. I don't. I honestly can't remember how you came in. How did you come in? What's your background?

[Bobby Wagner]

I started at the Ringer as an intern in July of 2018. It was a three month internship. After that. We needed warm bodies. You know, we were making a lot of shows Not a lot of producers, not a lot of audio people. And so I got hired full time to work on basically the Ringer NBA show feed was where I was doing the most work. And then aforementioned Zach Mack left right after that and his kind of suite of shows of mostly pop culture shows had to get passed on to some people. And I had just been brought on full time right before that. And I got the big pick, Kaia McMullen got the watch and Craig Horlbeck got the rewatchables. And all three of us are here seven years later still doing stuff at the Ringer shout out to them. And so, yeah, I started in the fall right around the same time that the show went to twice a week. And I had done a little bit of stuff, like filling in for Zach over the summer as he was working on other stuff. So I mentioned here on the doc that my first interview that I engineered for the show, back when interviews were only in person way pre pandemic days and back when that was the core cornerstone of the show was with McHugh for Impossible Fallout, which at the time, I mean, I liked the Mission Impossible movies just fine, but I was not, certainly not a connoisseur of them like I am now. And like you guys are. So I don't even think. I was just so nervous to fuck up the recording that I didn't Even really register McHugh coming in and how relevant it was and what his relationship would be with TC heading forward. I was just there to be like, I really hope that I don't mess this up. This is the first serious recording I'm ever engineering at the Ringer.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So you have been in charge of many recordings over the years. Does that anxiety ever go away?

[Bobby Wagner]

It started to go away probably after like a year. But back in the day, like, we were on an old Hollywood lot that was not built to be a podcast studio or several podcast studios, unlike now. And so I mean, I mean, I won't comment on that, we'll save that for JMO actually. But there was like ghosts in the machine, you know, it would just stop working from time to time. The infamous CPU overload, which no one was ever sure what that actually meant, was it just like the computer just would give up sometimes and it would stop recording. And every once in a while I would have to ask you guys, like, hey, can you guys do a pickup? If not, I'll just have to cut this line. And every single time I have a very vivid memory of covering jam session, of being like, hey, Amanda, The CPU overload happened. We lost about 15 seconds. Do you want to do a pickup? And you were just like, just cut it. I got to get out of here. Just cut that.

[Sean Fennessy]

And so, seriously, we take our jobs here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, you know, I value your time too.

[Bobby Wagner]

The nerves for, like, a normal episode would go away, but for, like, a big one, you know, like, as we started to have Tarantino on the pod or whatever it might be, or, like, if we were going on site somewhere and interviewing someone, there's always stuff that could go wrong when that happens. So I started. I would. I started to get less nervous on a normal episode, and, you know, I would save that for the episodes that really mattered.

[Sean Fennessy]

So what was your first official episode recording with me and Amanda?

[Bobby Wagner]

I don't know for certain, but I think it was introducing the Oscars show, which was the first one that we launched that was with all the categories and everything.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the clips.

[Bobby Wagner]

And the clips, Yes. I have this very vivid memory of. You came up with a show with the clip titles or with the segment titles, rather. And I was like, oh, I'll make some bumper clips for these. I'll drop some music or whatever, or I'll play an audio clip from a movie. Do you have suggestions? And you slacked me back. A list of suggestions and what songs you wanted me to play underneath them. But the clips themselves, you didn't have time codes for where these were in these movies. And I have a very vivid memory of the night before that recording, just scouring through The Intern, the 2015 movie with Anne Hathaway and Robert De Niro, looking for this one line where Anne Hathaway's character says, this is a problem in the big picture for the Big pictures Big picture segment that we used to do on the Oscars show. And I must have watched the whole movie. And I was simultaneously like, I'm getting paid to watch the Intern. But also, if I don't find this clip, I'll probably be fired and never work again. But I found it, and we rolled with it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I genuinely remember listening to that episode afterwards and thinking to myself, this fucking kid did everything I wanted. Like, he did. He nailed it. These were all that. These were all the spots I wanted. Some of them were a little easier to identify than others.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think I sent a YouTube clip of Gypsy, right?

[Bobby Wagner]

You did, you did, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To have the YouTube clips was great, but then not every one of these IMDb quotables, you know, but not every one of the IMDb quotable lines or whatever is gonna have a YouTube clip version. But this is a throwaway line in the Inter 2015 movie that is like.

[Sean Fennessy]

Even the small snatch of music from Salsation from Saturday Night Fever. Like, you. You nailed it. Was it the David Schreier score? And I was like, I hope he finds the right place for it. And he did. You know, that's why Bob was Bob for as long as he was. Personal highlights from the show.

[Bobby Wagner]

I've assembled a list of four clips that I would like to play for you guys.

[Sean Fennessy]

More of a slightest.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, this is so nice. I thought we were doing them. And this is. Oh, great. You have them. Okay, go ahead.

[Bobby Wagner]

I do. I do have them. So I'm gonna play a couple clips for you guys here. The first two, I think, are the two happiest moments of Sean's life, like, non Alice category in, like, the last 25 years. So I'm gonna play those first two for you here.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know what this is.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm Sean Fennesee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

[Sean Fennessy]

And this is the big picture. A conversation show about the 92nd Academy Awards and Bong Joon Ho.

[Bobby Wagner]

We did it. We did it, everybody.

[Sean Fennessy]

Parasite wins best picture. Amanda, how are you feeling?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm really glad we dressed up.

[Sean Fennessy]

We dressed up.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was feeling bad about that decision, but now we have something to celebrate.

[Sean Fennessy]

We could have been in jeans and a tee. That was.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That was a good one.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah, that was a great night. That was a great night. It was weird vibes to be. That was the first time I was, like, working it deep into the night on a Sunday night at this, like, old Hollywood lot that is, like, definitely haunted. But it was all worth it because Parasite won. I think my favorite part of that clip is that you can hear the people who are, like, shooting it on video. I remember Sean Yu in the background. Sean Yu just yelling. Yeah, I love that.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, that was fun. So, intriguingly, that was the last time anyone was happy. I think that was late February of 2020. Pandemic hit.

[Bobby Wagner]

February 10th. 2020 was the date on that bad boy.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yep. And downward spiral for five and a half consecutive years. I'm glad we're all together for that, though. That was a truly great moment.

[Bobby Wagner]

What else that was? Okay, here's the second. Here's the second clip here. There are only six reviews for this product on their website. They're all five stars. Congratulations to them. It's described as fiesta. Oh, Shawn made it in Fiesta in a bottle.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Fiesta in a bottle.

[Bobby Wagner]

I tried it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did you guys try it?

[Bobby Wagner]

Not Yet.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

You have completed your jury.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Your jury duty. I fucking told you that you wouldn't have to go. I told you we fucking did it. I told you we did it. You're so happy. I've never seen you so happy. I'm happy for that. That was really memorable.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, wow. Scheme worked. I don't think I've ever heard of it.

[Bobby Wagner]

You were like eight. Eight drinks in. In your garage, basically doing the movie Licorice.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And this was like, definitely.

[Sean Fennessy]

We'd.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We'd eaten, we'd done all the liquors. That sounds like that was canned margaritas, which was towards the end of this experiment.

[Bobby Wagner]

No, I think that was actually maybe Delola.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Fiesta in a bottle. Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is that J.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Lo's V8 juice? Not good.

[Sean Fennessy]

Anyone who hasn't heard that episode? We did a movie star liquor taste test where we spent three hours in my garage one afternoon and I think the middle of August, drinking and potting all afternoon.

[Bobby Wagner]

I think it was July 31st because it was for Amanda's birthday.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it was my birthday.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yes, that's right.

[Sean Fennessy]

It was your birthday.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was. I think it was one of our great moments. Many of my fondest bond memories. I still. I can't see Miles Teller's what's the drink called?

[Bobby Wagner]

Long Drink. Long Drink. You know, I went to Fenway this past weekend to see a Red Sox series. I saw a bunch of people drinking laundry.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You were there.

[Bobby Wagner]

What game were you there in Boston? I was there on Saturday and Sunday.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was there on Saturday afternoon. How did I not know you were at Fenway? Fuck.

[Bobby Wagner]

In Boston?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I saw the dog.

[Bobby Wagner]

It's so random. Oh, wow.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Damn it, Bobby. I didn't know I was there with all my in laws. But they had Long Drink.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah, they had long Drink. I saw some people carrying it around in the concert.

[Amanda Dobbins]

All right, well, I'm really sad that I missed you at Fenway. Um, I did meet. I met a listener. By the way, shout out to that listener. He was an Orioles fan. I don't know how it turned out for him. Um, I. That sucks. But I'm going to. I'm going to regather it. I had a great time. It was my first time at Fenway. You great park at the Long Drink. Because the Long drink was like, at the end of the taste.

[Sean Fennessy]

I liked it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And we were. No. Bobby was like, how can I invest? Yeah, like capitalism. Bobby came out after, like, three hours of drinking.

[Bobby Wagner]

Many people about long drink. I said long drink. Here's my email if you want to send me some stuff to get something going here.

[Sean Fennessy]

Is he still, like, involved in that project?

[Bobby Wagner]

I think so. I mean, I don't know. I'm just saying. Yes.

[Sean Fennessy]

Another dub for Miles.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Eagle. Super Bowl. Top Gun. Maverick. Long drink.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Gorge.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The gorge.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, yeah, we all have lows.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Bobby Wagner]

Are there more running over the gates of hell to get to Anya Taylor Joy's face? Yeah, there are two more here. The next one is my favorite Amanda moment in the history of the pod.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, no.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, no.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think I know what this is.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'm Sean Fennesee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

[Sean Fennessy]

And this is the Big picture. A conversation show about Oscar nominations. The Zone of interest Sunday.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Stand by this.

[Sean Fennessy]

And Hillary Clinton, of course.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I asked you guys to stay offline. You know, I asked you. I told you not to post. And look, here we are once again. Somehow we roped into the same ish box as Hillary Clinton. That's what I'm angry about. As I said, I was not angry about the nominations. I understood. I didn't agree with all of it, but I am fucking angry that somehow I had to deal with Hillary Clinton again. Hillary Clinton, go do something. Honestly, we have problems. I am serious. Multiple horrific conflicts in the world. Climate change. If it needs to be a girl boss thing, then, like, pay equity, maternal health. The fact. Like, the fact that it takes six months to get a gynecologist appointment. I'm still paying taxes on tampons. Like, there are a lot of issues, but not. Show me the lie.

[Bobby Wagner]

There was no lie. I think that I.

[Amanda Dobbins]

By the way, nothing has changed. She's done jack shit. Takes three months to get a mammogram appointment. You know what I'm saying? Welcome to your 40s. Jesus.

[Bobby Wagner]

Just incredible. I think right after that clip, right where I stopped it, I said, that was the greatest moment in the history of the big picture. And I stand by that. That was some really cool.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you for your support, Bob.

[Sean Fennessy]

I knew that was coming the moment the tweet hit. When that tweet was posted, I was like, we are gonna have an incredible episode today.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I told myself. I was like, I was in the drive on the way there. I was like, I'm gonna keep it together. They're not gonna get me into this.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's good stuff.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then they got me into it.

[Bobby Wagner]

For anyone who doesn't remember, the context for that was that Hillary Clinton tweeted about Barbie not getting enough nominations at the Oscars.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And she was like, same girl, you know, what's it Feel like to lose to a man and get more votes or whatever.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like, I don't know if we. I don't know if she actually did the shoulder waggle that you were just rocking there, but maybe the head bob.

[Bobby Wagner]

Honestly, she probably did okay. The only moment that could ever hold a candle to that. Of course, my. Probably the most talked about turning point in the history of the big picture. This is my final clip for you guys.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

There is a lot of sameness in the tent. We're doing a lot of western vistas.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We are doing a lot of, like.

[Sean Fennessy]

Rich, outdoorsy, neo western stuff here, where Fargo is just like the whitewashed Great Plains.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I say not Great Plains.

[Bobby Wagner]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

Minnesota, Land o Lakes. Chris Fargo's in North Dakota.

[Bobby Wagner]

That's right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sean is just glaring at Chris. This is like angry Sean body language. I'm just gonna narrate this breakdown in real time. Nostrils flaring.

[Sean Fennessy]

Where's Rango?

[Bobby Wagner]

Said.

[Sean Fennessy]

Also in the American West. That was like a frog. Also in the life of the Mayan. And that's a frog who's a sheriff, right? He's not a frog. He's not a frog. He's a gecko. Is he sheriff? Is that like, top 10 frog sheriff movies?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Where's Rango Hat.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is a shameful podcast. I think we need to stop and delete this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That was so good. It's nice that you could laugh now.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's still hurtful. It's still hurtful.

[Bobby Wagner]

You got everything you bargained for, you know, that made the show what it became, that moment, tapping into that absolute insanity, that zaniness.

[Sean Fennessy]

You were in the room sheriff, right?

[Bobby Wagner]

I was there. For some reason, we were shooting that on video. This was like five years before we ever started doing video stuff. But we decided that that episode for Deakins needed to be captured on video.

[Amanda Dobbins]

For breakouts or something, I guess for breakouts.

[Bobby Wagner]

And that breakout is easy to find on YouTube. That is the Roger Deakins hall of Fame episode, in which we ran through every episode or every film that Roger Deakins worked on to try to narrow it down to 10. This was an early hall of Fame, early in the concept of us doing this on the show. And Deakins is obviously a legend, and so he had worked on so much stuff and so many Coen Brothers movies, and you just could not. You had a really hard time getting rid of any of the Coen Brothers movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You're so. And it was a real, like, a home moment, you know? Like, there have been a few of those. It's like that was the funniest one, obviously. Avengers Endgame. That was a tough one.

[Sean Fennessy]

That was a tough one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I can't remember. There was another one recently where it was just like, you quit on us.

[Sean Fennessy]

Brad Pitt and George Clooney.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. What was going on there?

[Sean Fennessy]

I just really thought Chris let me down on that one. I just was like, I need you to bring the same energy that I'm bringing to this. And then he didn't want to. And then I had to be like, will you, Zach? You know, Amanda's husband betray Amanda? And he was like, I'm not gonna do that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was eight months pregnant.

[Sean Fennessy]

But, yeah, that was tough anyhow.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That was funny. Did Fargo stay on the list?

[Bobby Wagner]

I honestly can't remember. I don't think it did. I don't think it did.

[Amanda Dobbins]

My dad was trying to guess 25 for 25 entries the other day, and he was like, what about Fargo? Well, dad, that was 1996. His other guesses were he told me Barry Levinson's 10 men, which I told him was released in the 80s. And then he's like, I guess the Godfather films are too old.

[Bobby Wagner]

Right?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's like, okay, goodbye, dad. Oh, and then finally, Michael Haneke's the White Ribbon, which, spoiler alert, is not on the list.

[Sean Fennessy]

I kind of wanted it on. And God, shout out Knox for just the big Knox for saying that. I think the White Ribbon would make for a very chill 25 for 25 episode.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Anyway, Fargo not on the list because it was released in 1996 or 7.

[Bobby Wagner]

Not on the Deacons hall of Fame and not on the 25 for 25.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, it didn't make the hall of Fame.

[Bobby Wagner]

I don't think it did.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He just kept thinking about, like, the white vistas.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Bobby Wagner]

You know, all the snow coming over the mountain.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, it's a Communicating about the internal lives of the characters. You know, that's really his art. That's what he does.

[Bobby Wagner]

Chris was so mad when he tried to take Sicario off that list that I thought he was actually gonna turn in his resignation letter.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. It's been noted before to us by many people that that obviously was the turning point of the whole show. Like, it is the. I don't know what the fuck was in the air that day, but we were like, I guess this is what it is now, and this is what everyone wants. And I'm happy to give the people what they want, which is me having mild emotional breakdowns about meaningless things. That's.

[Bobby Wagner]

I think what was actually in the air was that we started putting full sized water bottles in the studio and I think all three of you had to pee.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, but I was really, really desperate to pee. And like we still were never taking a break no matter what.

[Sean Fennessy]

And normal pods would just be like, can we stop down for five minutes? No problem. But for whatever reason, I learned this from Bill. Bill is like, you will sit there for two and a half hours and you will not move. And if you move we're gonna have a big problem. And he wouldn't actually say that, but that was the vibe.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There was like a closed energy of like no breaks, no windows that we had for a while there. About four videos that really, that did bring something special, you know, so just.

[Sean Fennessy]

An amazing collection of clips from two weird 40 somethings being observed by a 20 something who maybe, maybe sees his future. You know, maybe you were looking down the, down the telescope towards your path.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah, I mean I think that I. Part of the reason that we, I feel like got. Have gotten along so well over the years is that I'm a 20 something, sort of like trapped. I'm a 40 something trapped in a 20 something person's body. You know, I'm a grouch. I'm cranky about things, I'm perfectly nice to the people around me, but I have kind of washed opinions and takes about things and I feel like that slotted well in with you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, you've just segued magnificently to Shrek washed opinion. So let's talk about it now. You've put together like a lot of thoughts around the film, why it matters to you, why we're going to talk about it, what it means in the context of 21st century movie history. I think it's a great pick also because we've been doing 25 for 25 and we just did a conversation about Spirited Away and so animated films and this being such a huge breakthrough for DreamWorks.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So you want to let the people know that Shrek is not on 25 for 25 didn't make it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I hope this, this episode suffices because it's not on the list. It's not on the top 100. It's not on the top 300, not on the top 500. Is it in your top 25 movies of the century, Bobby?

[Bobby Wagner]

Definitely not.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Bobby Wagner]

But it is in the one for one of Bobby leaving episodes. So in a way it's more prestigious than 25. 25.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's perfect programming.

[Bobby Wagner]

I chose Shrek mostly well because you guys probably wouldn't want to watch Spirit, style and invest tomaran. But I think that it's a movie that's like incredibly important to opening up the world of animation to people of my age, along with the Miyazaki movies. Ironically, beyond just Disney and Pixar. Disney, Pixar movies, I think it was DreamWorks in that era of the turn of the 21st century, was the first time that I really remember, like watching feature length movies that were animation. And Shrek is just, I mean, we're going to talk more about each movie individually, but Shrek is this almost intoxicating blend of like voice performances that are really, really going for it, while also just like, it's maximalism, it's animation maximalism. There's like a million characters, million fairy tale characters, a lot of jokes, like way too fast for my young mind to ever comprehend. And yeah, I just think that it carries such an important legacy. When I hear from listeners of the big picture, they're like, you guys got to let, you got to let Shaun and Amanda know how important Shrek is because you guys have dumped on it a couple times over the years. You've dumped on this franchise. And I feel like part of my role on the show since I started was standing up, having a backbone.

[Sean Fennessy]

Speaking for Gen Z for the years, of course, for your generation. Gen Z. I mean, speaking for the.

[Bobby Wagner]

Generation behind me to come. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I am going to say, like, this is. I know that technically you maintain according to the dates that you're a young millennial. And I do think this is another, you know, this is another piece in my argument that you are like technically Gen Z, that this means so much to you. But it's fine. You can be a bridge.

[Bobby Wagner]

You can be, I go whichever way the wind goes. No, you can't pin me down.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's fine. Can you set the scene for us? How old was Bobby? Where was Bobby in your life when you saw Shrek for the first time?

[Bobby Wagner]

God, I was only five when the first Shrek movie came out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was in high school.

[Bobby Wagner]

I definitely, I was a sophomore in college. These, this age range, like this or this exact date range, is the date range where our ages are so dramatically. Yes, it's the craziest gap. Yeah, I was five and I saw it in theaters and I was immediately hooked. But I honestly don't have that vivid of a memory of going to see it in the theater. I have a lot more of a memory of just putting the DVD in repeatedly, not just at my own house. But that would be just the thing that you would do when you would go to someone else's house for the first two hours of your five hour play date or whatever, you'd watch Shrek and then you'd play the Shrek video game, which came out a few years later. And yeah, it was just an incredibly. Not to borrow a phrase of the Ringer podcast network, but rewatchable movie. The jokes never got old and I think that's for a number of reasons. Probably the biggest reason is that just Eddie Murphy of the whole situation. This is my gateway to Eddie Murphy, one of the greatest comic forces in American history, if not the greatest comic force in American history. And it's funny to say it that way now, sort of backtracking his career, being surrounded by people who have much more firsthand experience with his earlier work, and becoming familiar with just how important his role on SNL is. Not just to people who are older than me, but like literally to the foundation of the Ringer. Like Eddie Murphy making Bill Simmons laugh at a young age is like the reason that we're all here doing what we're doing in a lot of ways.

[Sean Fennessy]

There's definitely standards.

[Bobby Wagner]

It's crazy. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think, I mean, that was part of the narrative at the time when the movie was released was why did it take so long for Eddie Murphy to have a part like this? And he and Mike Myers being two comic powerhouses with SNL pedigree, but, you know, the mo. The movie is fairly strange, I would say. I think you've like located something that makes a lot of sense, which is that there's. There's a kind of meta, ironic quality to the like, upending of the fairy tale story.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's the whole point of the movie is like we're doing almost like the like Airplane, but for fairy tales, but animated, you know that there's like every. It's like a joke a minute. Everything is like plays on words or plays on character expectations. It's not the first time this has happened. The two movies that I thought about as I was revisiting this were who Framed Roger Rabbit, where it was just like breaking rules about where characters could be and where they could live and who could talk to each other and who couldn't and who could coexist. And then the other huge movie for.

[Bobby Wagner]

Me, by the way, I have a vivid memory of putting that into the VHS a lot when I was a kid.

[Sean Fennessy]

They have a lot in common for sure. And they both were kind of like at the vanguard of a certain kind of like animation style. Anyway, the Other one was Clerks wouldn't think, yeah, five year old Bobby watching Shrek would be able to watch Clerks and enjoy it. And you wouldn't. But 10 or 12 years later you might, because this like pop culture overload sensibility.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

You know, and every joke being a joke about a joke that's inside of a joke and it having its own weird rhythms and its own odd relationship to music and our expectations of what characters are supposed to do in a movie and who they actually are, they felt very tied together for me. And I saw Clerks not quite at 5, but I think I was like 12 when I saw it. And it really imprinted on me. And I really liked that writing and style. And I think a lot of kids, I mean, you made an amazing observation here in your notes that I think is right on that I think that this informed a kind of like Internet tonality. Right. Like explain what you were going for when you were identifying that.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah. My grand theory about Shrek is that it's the first time that the movies and the memes truly became one. It's like the singularity for shitposting on the Internet about movies and movie characters. And I think that that is why Shrek, literally, the face of Shrek endures in so many different meme formats to this point, the entire meme spectrum. This seems like a ridiculous thing for me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, it's very smart. I think it's true, it's very smart.

[Bobby Wagner]

But it's like there's the like, you know, I would say like twee 2012 style memes where it's like the facial expressions that Shrek is making in the movie are like, you know, my feeling when this happens, style memes all the way down to like the deep fried me on 35 milligrams of THC at the function and my face falls off. Shrek memes. Like all of these different things are covered by the Shrek experience because. And I think a huge, huge part of that is that the computer animation style of this movie is incredibly uncanny and weird and kind of fucked up in some ways. Like, it looks weird when you look at Shrek for too long. It's kind of upsetting, especially in the first one when they were just kind of at the vanguard of this style of animation.

[Sean Fennessy]

I had a hard time looking at the first film when we revisited.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I was like, wow, this is really ugly.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's very ugly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But in a way that is sort of uncapped. Uncanny Valley in its own way. No, I think the meme thing is Very smart, Bobby. And again, like plays into my understanding of this is really like the cultural bridge between people our age and people your age. Because we learned about this very like meta, self referential, pop culture infused, like just mile a minute type of storytelling from, you know, Tarantino and Kevin Smith, I guess you want. And like, and even, you know, the, like Aaron Sorkin, everything in the 90s, the TV shows. Yeah. You know, you talk really fast and you show off how much you know, and that's how you relate.

[Sean Fennessy]

Stand up comedians were like this as well.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exactly. And so it's, you know, a form of humor that we got in, in movies or TV shows and that then you guys digest through, you know, and it is very cleverly using references that you would have at 5, which is every single other fairy tale that's kind of like your pop cultural library at this point. And then teaching, giving the language to the younger kids. And then you just put it on the Internet and make some glorious memes. And then it's helpful because, you know, it helps me understand memes because you're using the same like building blocks that we were, but just to do funny things on the Internet. It is amazing. I had never seen Shrek 2 before, but I have seen all the memes, you know, so it was like, it's like, it's funny. It's like when you watch like a film from the 40s and you're like, oh, that's where they got this. But it was like me for Shrek too, with the Internet being like, oh, there's Puss in Boots, you know. Oh, I see it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. Well, it's interesting too, because it was. These movies are made, you know, by old Gen X and young boomers, you know, like those are the people who created, who wrote the scripts, adapted the book, the directors of the films. They're not elder millennials, they're not even young Gen Xers. The people who wrote and directed this movie are all in their mid-60s now and they were already kind of 20 years down the road on their careers in Hollywood. And so it's interesting that they were able to locate a sensibility that would appeal so intensely to 5 year olds and that would carry them through 25 years. You know, we haven't even mentioned that Puss in Boots, like, that's also a franchise that continues on. Like there have been now, I think, six Shrek related films and the seventh is coming. So it has kind of just every three to four years there is a new Shrek movie, and it never expired. Even though if you got into it at five, you're like, I guess I just kind of have to see everything that they do. Do you still have that relationship to it? Do you still feel like you have to see every Shrek related object?

[Bobby Wagner]

No, I mean, I definitely have seen the first four because I was contemporary with them, but I know Puss in Boots, the Last Wish, which came out somewhere in the haze of the pandemic in my mind. Like late pandemic era.

[Sean Fennessy]

I think it was 2022.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah, I never watched it.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, it's good.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah. I heard that it was like, pretty well liked and I just. I never got around to watching it. And something about the Puss in Boots, like, franchiseification, like, they. That character occupies like the Minions territory where it's like, we've clearly hit something that is, like, unbelievably addictive to children. This cat who talks in Antonio Banderas voice, which honestly, the first time he comes on the screen, it's genuinely really funny.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's really, really good.

[Bobby Wagner]

Especially since this is another link between Spy Kids and Shrek is Banderas, who just from a very young age, I was like, that guy is the epitome of cool. That guy is my.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, not wrong, you know.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah. And that I just like, didn't quite respond to as much as the original Shrek films. But. Yeah. So I'm not like, I don't necessarily have like, season tickets where I will just shill for any Shrek product. Like I will for, you know, maybe the Mission Impossible movies or whatever. But, yeah, it endures, I think. And I do think there are a lot of people who are like that and for that reason, anxiously awaiting Shrek 5. Having seen the trailer and are getting a little bit worried about, like this. Much of an advancement in the technology is now going to take us too far away from what the original Shrek is about. It's not going to look right.

[Sean Fennessy]

Crude animation and awkward fart jokes from a Scottish ogre.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I spent some time on.

[Bobby Wagner]

I mean, kind of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I spent some time on Shrek Reddit this morning. Oh. Which has. Yeah. Which has 110,000 subscribers. So it's a vibrant community and it's.

[Sean Fennessy]

Not our okay buddy Shrek, you know, like, you know, the okay buddy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's just our Shrek. And they are. They seem very concerned about the animation style of Shrek 5. Yeah, I mean, that is the job of a subreddit devoted to Shrek is to be upset about. And, you know, we saw what happened With Sonic the Hedgehog, when the people voiced their concerns.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's right. Community spoke and the studio listened.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But it does seem to be a hot mudden issue.

[Sean Fennessy]

I wouldn't say it's keeping me up at night, but I'm glad that there are people that care out there. The thing that jumped out to me when I was watching it was the music and the fact that this is clearly a movie made by a bunch of Gen Xers where I'm like, there's just like, an eel song in the middle of this movie. You know, obviously, the usage of it sure is. The two smash Mouth songs. Rufus Wainwright on the soundtrack, John Cale in the movie performing Hallelujah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I totally blocked out that. There's just an entire, like, the entire song Hallelujah montage. And then, like, 2001 came back to me so profoundly in that moment. Like, yeah, I just, you know, and then I remember, like, some kid covering Hallelujah at, like, a school assembly, you know, and it was definitely. It was not because of Jeff Buckley or anything else. It was because of Shrek.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

That is. I mean, that rules. I'm not sure if that rules.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't again. And we know how I feel about people singing. And then this person is just up there, just, like, at the school assembly.

[Sean Fennessy]

So I was incredible.

[Bobby Wagner]

Joan Jett needle drop in this movie when he's doing wwe, like, fighting a bunch of knights.

[Sean Fennessy]

And I can't remember, does that. Does this. Does this predate Freaks and Geeks? Because that bad reputation was the theme song for Freaks and Geeks. And so I was wondering, like, were these contemporaneous? Was it a coincidence? But that song, like, had a real sexual.

[Bobby Wagner]

Freaks and geeks was 99. So it looks like this was after that, just having a moment.

[Sean Fennessy]

The music in general is really strange, but actually really effective for subverting your expectations of an animated movie. Like, this is not. There are no Disney princesses singing beautiful harmonies in this movie. And in fact, the one Disney princess archetype is, in fact, at nighttime, an ogre. And I think there's something really cool about the way that the movie kind of consistently upends your expectations of what a story should be. I don't know if it's sophisticated, but it's fun. And I think it, like, can I.

[Bobby Wagner]

Say the I'm a believer needle drop, like, the smash mouth cover of that song. First of all, it hits way earlier in the movie than I ever remember. It just is like, here we go. We're off to the races. I think that that was probably the peak of the serotonin levels in my brain. And it's been all downhill since then. The first time I saw that.

[Sean Fennessy]

So that hit and you were like, this is perfect. I feel so. I feel everything inside of me right now.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah, I mean that was like the, the Layla in Goodfellas. For four year olds, you really.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You can't overestimate to people who weren't there. And I guess at this point it's like Jack, but like, you cannot understand how big a chokehold Smash Mouth had on the public as like off of this movie between.

[Bobby Wagner]

You could make the argument that they are the 2000s band. Like they are the band of the 2000s, for better and for worse.

[Sean Fennessy]

But here I'm okay. So here's the thing. I was, I was there for this, Trust Me. Their first album, Fuxiu Mang, comes out in 1997. So they were a kind of buzzbin post grunge, where should music go? Pivot point kind of a band. And they were, they seemed like kind of a joke. Their lead singer, I think Paul de Lisle. What was his name? He passed away, had that like croaky groany thing. He was like a bigger guy. He had spiky hair. He was wearing like Oakley's. But if you listen to the band's first single, which is Walking on the sun, it's basically a non conformist, anti capitalist.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Document. That's weird to say because it's a silly song with a silly music video. But they were like a pretty traditional alternative rock band and they had success with that album. Then they put out Astro Lounge, their second album. That second album had All Star on it, also a hit. And then I, in my mind, in like 2000, 2001, I'm sure I wasn't spending a lot of time thinking about this, but I was like, oh, they had their moment and it's over. Like you could have thought. This is kind of the arc of the alternative rock band. In the mid to late 90s, they had one album, maybe two, maybe they got a second hit and then see you later. So for you to frame them, and I don't think you're wrong to frame them this way, but for you to frame them as like a 2000s band, I'm like, this is a 90s band to the core.

[Bobby Wagner]

And yet it's not that I think that they are like, they are a night. Like they are a 2000s band necessarily in the sense that they're like creating music in the model of like whatever the 2000s came to be in terms of, like, how the music industry changed and that sort of thing. I think that they sound like the 2000s felt to someone who was growing up in that time period, like, this song, maybe that just is because of Shrek, but they're sort of like, their energy, they're like, you know, fuck it. Like, we're just. We're having fun no matter what we're singing about. Kind of energy that characterizes the songs, I think, does sort of align really well with, like, that time period in my mind. Um, they also, you know, to the. To the point of memes, like, they understood the power of posting too. I mean, they. They were having Twitter feuds with the Oakland athletics in the mid 2010s still, you know, like, this is a band that understood the power of, like, the Internet and the internetification of entertainment. For better or for worse.

[Sean Fennessy]

They were sort of thrust into it. I made a mistake. The lead singer's name was Steve Harwell. Paul Delisle was the bassist and the songwriter in the band. But I wonder if they didn't have the Shrek moment, would they even care about getting involved in Internet fights? Like, did the Shrekification of Smash Mouth.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Transform everything into it? And they also, you know, being not one, but two songs in Shrek is like. Is like peak sellout, you know, and then you're just writing the wave, which also has a real early 2000s feel of feel to me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Let's just jam all these bands onto a soundtrack album.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. And also, like, everything is just Is kind of TRL popped corporated out before things absolutely fall apart in the mid 2000s.

[Sean Fennessy]

What was on the soundtrack for Shrek 2? Did Smash Mouth make a return? I know that Counting Crows famously had.

[Amanda Dobbins]

A song in the opening song, Unmistakable.

[Sean Fennessy]

Accidentally in Love, Smash Mouth was left on the cutting room floor. I'll never forget the moment I heard Nick Cave's voice singing a song. It was like a saloon got piano player singing a Nick Cave song in Shrek 2. And I'm like, we are truly through the looking glass here. Culturally, this could not be any more weird. Anyway, Shrek 1, massive, massive success. $270 million internationally, as you said, brought back Eddie Murphy in a big way for a new generation. Plays to adults pretty smartly. So I saw the movie in theaters too. Imagine me being in college, going with the boys to go see Shrek. Like, what deranged behavior that was. I'm sure we had had, like, 14 naughty lights.

[Bobby Wagner]

Balls.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It happened. So, like, I watched it last night before bed, like, went into bed and I, you know, said to Zach, I was like, well, I was like, you seen Shrek? He's like, yeah, more than once, Donkey man. And I was like, I don't even know what to, you know. But I guess we were just.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it just took over. There's no denying that it was for us too. Even though we were not little kids. Like, it was just dominant in the culture for that time.

[Bobby Wagner]

Sorry, I was so distracted by looking up the soundtrack for Shrek 2. We got holding out for a Hero by Frou Frou Changes, David Bowie. I mean, come on, Funky Town. That's great stuff.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Bobby Wagner]

That is awesome stuff. Liv and La Vida Loca covered by Banderas and Eddie Murphy. Just great stuff.

[Sean Fennessy]

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[D]

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[Sean Fennessy]

So Shrek 1 comes out. It's a mega success. It wins the first ever best animated feature Academy Award.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Which is fascinating to go back and think about.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. Who are its competitors?

[Sean Fennessy]

Well, let's go back and take a look at the 2002 Academy Awards. Shrek, Jimmy Neutron, boy genius.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What happens in that?

[Bobby Wagner]

Oh, wow.

[Amanda Dobbins]

One sentence summary, Bob, go.

[Bobby Wagner]

I don't remember which one that is, but the one sentence summary of Jimmy Neutron is that he is a boy genius with a gigantic head and he is confronted with science related problems. I honestly think that you could have a whole miniseries doing just Amanda's Science Corner for Jimmy Neutron.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Jimmy Neutron, yeah. That would go really well.

[Sean Fennessy]

Jimmy Neutron in the movie. I believe there's an alien invasion and Jimmy has to save his parents.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

The other contender was Monsters, Inc. Now. Wow.

[Bobby Wagner]

Monsters Inc. Probably earned that one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Monsters Inc. Losing is fascinating, especially because Pixar would go on to run this category. They've won I think north of 10 times in this category. And Monsters, Inc. I think is still widely considered one of their best movies. Actually we just watched it in our house and it's still, it's really good. It's a classic and but that is, that is a testimony, I think a very discreet testimony to what a phenomenon Shrek was that at this time when they decided to finally do this. This is like a, this is a big movie year. This is like a big, you know, obviously it's in the aftermath of 911 and it's the right when the Fellowship of the Ring starts. And this year that A Beautiful Mind won and it was a very, I remember it as a very noisy Academy Awards. And so for Shrek to have that spot was a big deal. Very quickly, the sequel is put into motion. What should we say about Mike Myers and Cameron Diaz?

[Bobby Wagner]

Are you guys familiar with the backstory of Mike Myers role as Shrek? How much do you know about how he got.

[Sean Fennessy]

Why don't you tell us? I know the whole story.

[Bobby Wagner]

Well, it was originally going to be directed as a normal animated movie, not this weird Uncanny Valley, DreamWorks style. And it was going to be directed by Steven Spielberg. He was the person who originally optioned this book that it is very loosely based on.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The characters are based on William Stephen, a legend.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah. And the movie was proceeding. Spielberg had decided not to direct it, I guess, but the movie was proceeding and it was going to be voiced by Chris Farley. And then Chris Farley died during the production of the movie. And Mike Myers was interested, I think from prior to when Farley got cast and then wanted to come in and take over as in the role. And like very late in the production process made this like crazy choice to give the Shrek character a Scottish accent, which he didn't have when he was performed by Farley, because he wanted to distance his own performance from the performance that Farley had given when he was originally going to voice it over. And in doing so, created like a whole lot of new work for the animators. And they spent like almost like half a million dollars on refitting the visuals to match his like Scottish accent or whatever. And to be honest, like, I actually can't imagine the movie with Shrek just doing a normal voice. I can't imagine him not having a Scottish accent. And it is such a huge part of why it is just inherently funny from the jump that he is talking like this.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's particularly strange when you hear about what Myers relationship is to that accent. But Farley was apparently five days away from completing his voice performance, which was going to be completed before the animation was done. And they changed the animation style a couple of times. They had attempted to do it in more of like a. I think originally more of like a motion capture style. And then that proved too difficult. And so they moved to just the traditional computer animation style. But so Farley can't finish it. Meyer steps in. Myers really likes the character. He records the entire track in a normal American accent. I think he does another one in a Canadian accent.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

Which of course Mike Myers is from Canada. That doesn't really work. And then at the last minute he says he wants to try the Scottish accent. Now, under normal circumstances, which is something.

[Bobby Wagner]

That you said to me before that first episode of the Big. That I produced. And I counsel you not to do that.

[Sean Fennessy]

So if only I had gone down that route, I would have felt more comfortable in my true voice. But you'd be like, that's a really quirky choice by a comic actor. But it's something you might hear the comic actor does from time to time. Except for the fact that Mike Myers had done this twice already.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, well, I don't mind it.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't mind it either. But it's really weird when you're like, his most famous roles are Scottish guys.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, no, it's very strange. It's weird. But don't you think that brings our generation in a little bit? Because we remember so I Married an axe murderer.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know?

[Sean Fennessy]

That's it. So I married an axe murderer. Obviously, his character's father is. Is a Scotsman, you know, heed. No, it's like an orange with a toothpick. You know, like all that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Have you seen so I Married an Axe Murderer. Does that. Has that made it to you?

[Sean Fennessy]

I haven't. Oh, my God, dude, you gotta watch it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is. So maybe you won't laugh at all. And that would be really funny, too. But, like, I've. I don't think I've ever laughed more during a rewatchables than when you guys did. So I Married an axe Murderer. And it wasn't anything you were saying. You just played the clips and I started giggling.

[Sean Fennessy]

The clips. Okay. So just to set the scene for those of you out there listening who have not seen Sorry, I Married an Axe Murder, I believe the first time that we see Mike Myers father in the film, played by Mike Myers in old man makeup, he is sitting on his couch, it's Saturday night. He's about to watch a soccer match and host his son and his best friend. His wife, played by Brenda Fricker, is dusting their wall, which is the Scottish hall of Fame. And he is singing the Bay City Rollers Saturday night. And he's saying, S A T U R D A Y night. It's like the funniest fucking thing I've ever seen in my entire life. And then obviously, five years later, he brings this voice back for Fat Bastard. So Fat Bastard in Austin Powers 2.

[Bobby Wagner]

That spy who Shaggy, that made its way to me as a kid.

[Sean Fennessy]

So. And Fat Bastard, what could play better to a young boy than Fat Bastard, which is some magical film creation. So he's like, okay, I've already done two classic Scots in my movie. Performances. And now this ogre needs to be Scottish. And yet somehow, like in the mythology of ogres, it just kind of tracks, even if it's not factually accurate.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I guess this is like Brigadoon inflected. But like, all fairy tales take place somewhere in Scotland in my mind, even though I think many of them are of Germanic tradition. You know, obviously Scandinavia has got a big hold there, so. But yes, classics major, she keeps. Scotland is where it's happening. I'm just immediately primed to laugh because I know that it's Mike Myers doing it, rewatching it. I do think he's sort of the unsung hero of this movie.

[Sean Fennessy]

Mike?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Eddie Murphy is amazing and so funny, but Mike Myers has to be kind of like the straight man and get you emotionally involved. It's a real performance, a Scottish ogre. And you do buy all of it. So I think he's quite good. Would love to talk about Cameron Diaz.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, that's her voice.

[Sean Fennessy]

She plays Fiona.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She showed up, she talked into a microphone.

[Sean Fennessy]

You despise Cameron Diaz.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No. Charlie's Angels is one of the great moments in cinema history.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, Bobby, you did not see the Counselor before you saw Shrek. So what was. What were your feelings on Cameron Diaz when you saw this film?

[Bobby Wagner]

I mean, I don't know that I was even registering who. I don't think I really cared who voiced who until I had watched Shrek like 40 times and I was like, I'd like more of this donkey guy. That guy's pretty funny. I think she does a good job. Your contention. What is Mana? That she's mailing it in?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, there's not like a lot of there there, but there's not a lot of there there to Fiona in this films.

[Bobby Wagner]

So not until Shrek 2.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So it's not really her fault. Also, just to take it back to movie star liquor taste test, we did like her wine. It was late in the game, but we thought that the Avileen wine was. Was pretty good.

[Sean Fennessy]

That's a collab with Benji Madden.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I think that's hers. It's the collab with Catherine Power, who also makes merit the makeup, which started a long and fruitful.

[Sean Fennessy]

I thought they bought that winery together. No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, did they nothing. Did they.

[Sean Fennessy]

Didn't she get married to a Madden?

[Amanda Dobbins]

She did, but he's been written out. It's now her wine in the marketing.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay, okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And she's.

[Sean Fennessy]

But is he still in the picture?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I think they're together. Oh, that's Nice. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Anyway, the wine was good. We liked it.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yes. I remember you guys liking it very much. I was kind of mixed on it. Not my fault.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Are you a wine person?

[Bobby Wagner]

I like something a little bit. I like red wine, but I like it to be a little more dry.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But is this about, like, macros?

[Bobby Wagner]

No. No.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Bobby Wagner]

I think wine is okay as far as alcohols go. It's like decent for macros. I mean, it's relatively sugary, but red wine has some good effects.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Talk to me about Shrek's cutting and bulking routine.

[Bobby Wagner]

I think he came out of the womb like that. I don't think he has to work too hard to get like that. I will talk to you about the second movie. How he's built is a fascinating. Also a deeply upsetting stretch of the movie when he's turned into a normal looking guy and they're like, this is supposed to be the hottest guy on earth. And it's. He's like a very upsetting looking man to me. I don't think that really worked.

[Sean Fennessy]

He does look a bit like a bulking and cutting influencer, though.

[Bobby Wagner]

He does. He looks a little bit like the.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Mountain or like leftovers. He does leftover steroids, which is another thing that you taught me, which is when the men are like large but slightly mushy. It's because often they stopped doing their treatments.

[Bobby Wagner]

I'm really glad that on my way out here, I'm leaving you with some building blocks. I'm leaving you with some really important knowledge about hd.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Bobby, you'd know. I will always text you with questions. This relationship is not.

[Bobby Wagner]

I will always answer. Yeah, that's another one of the core tenets of being the producer of the big picture is that I'm just awake all of the time and answer text messages at any hour of the night.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, there's like girl creatine now. Right. You know that that market has opened up.

[Bobby Wagner]

I've heard about this. I recently learned about it in relation to Jennifer Lopez, but I don't know as much about it. Can you teach me what's.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I just saw on the Internet that it influenced Influencer that I follow and like. And I mostly use her recommendations for like garbage bags and stuff on Amazon, but she was posting a certain brand of creatine that I recognized as, like, I, you know, I recognize.

[Bobby Wagner]

Oh, so it's just creatine. It's not like a separate supplement. It's also creatine.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. No, it's. And it's like it's like shaped like the jars, you know, like the GNC jars, but it just then has peak labeling and it says creatine. And I was like, oh, wow, the pro. This has made it over to girl Internet. So here we are.

[Bobby Wagner]

Where does this fall? On the alignment chart with girl lira, which was like a bit that we did on the pod for like two years.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, you can definitely only buy girl creatine with girl lira. And I think it is like also super. What's the word? I'm looking like the exchange rate is not what you want.

[Bobby Wagner]

You know, you're paying a premium because.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Of this girl creatine. Exactly.

[Bobby Wagner]

I see, I see. When was the last time you took a scoop of creatine, Sean?

[Sean Fennessy]

It's been a while.

[Bobby Wagner]

Right before holding those dumbbells out for 30 straight minutes.

[Sean Fennessy]

No, no protein powder for me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't really believe in it either. I've started doing other.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, I think I actually have a reasonably good protein inflected diet. So I'm not terribly concerned about it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm trying to find natural sources. I do now, Bobby, because of you do the magnesium for sleeping and it's helping.

[Bobby Wagner]

Nice.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, nice. Magnesium glycanate. I'm not a doctor. You're not just, you know, covering my legal basis.

[Sean Fennessy]

I realize this is in the spirit of the big picture and everything that you've been a part of on this show, Bob. It's Shrek 2. How do we get back? How do we get back there? Show. Show me a transition.

[Amanda Dobbins]

His build.

[Sean Fennessy]

Show me a segue.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It was about his. Shrek 2 built.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

When he turns out.

[Bobby Wagner]

Well, the answer to how he gets to that is that in the first movie we see a little bit of a window into his diet, which it sounds like he's eating a lot of rats, which I guess is a lot of lean protein. But I found that to be a very upsetting scene. But it was romantic between them when they share the rats. So that's how we get there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's barbecuing.

[Sean Fennessy]

No communicable diseases in those rats. Like, presumably if you eat a rat, whatever a rat is carrying you're ingesting. That seems like a little dicey for that ogre. I know he's an ogre.

[Amanda Dobbins]

World that they live in, like, what's the name of like is it doesn't really matter. Never Neverland, is it?

[Bobby Wagner]

I don't really know that. They specify. They specify where they're going. The kingdom of Dulaq in the first.

[Amanda Dobbins]

One like, do we have a lot of ancestry? Are there communicable diseases there? Oh, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

You think they've kind of wiped everything out?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't. I mean, I. I'm just wondering. We, like, we don't. You don't hear about any plague. And it is sort of like they.

[Bobby Wagner]

Have much more of a pro vaccine renaissance collected.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, that would be nice. They don't mention anything about hand washing and all the rules. So maybe there's no masking culture, obviously. Maybe germs are not a concern.

[Sean Fennessy]

Although those knights do have those face shields.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But that's to protect your eyes and your other side and your mouth. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

Didn't matter for Shrek. He was straight up dropping the tombstone like he was doing WWE moves. It was incredible. Uh, I. I don't know. You think it's like a Maha screed? Shrek, this is what America could be if only you would sign up.

[Amanda Dobbins]

For what?

[Bobby Wagner]

I don't think that's the case.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't know. You could live in a fairy tale existence if you didn't get vaccinated. I don't know whatever the fuck the movie's trying to tell you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I think they have.

[Sean Fennessy]

You can eat rats.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think everyone, you know, went along with it, and so now everyone's healthy.

[Bobby Wagner]

Okay, well, they. What they do clearly have in the second movie is they have a supplement culture because fairy godmother runs a factory of wellness products and love products that she sells to people to get rich.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, sure, because Fiona's second movie being.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah, exactly. The second movie being about an. And her being an Angelino is very funny to me. Yeah, I think that's a pretty good bit.

[Sean Fennessy]

Does Goop predate Shrek 2?

[Amanda Dobbins]

What year is Shrek 2?

[Bobby Wagner]

2004.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, Shrek 2 was first.

[Sean Fennessy]

When did goop launch?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I want to say 2007 or 2008.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay.

[Bobby Wagner]

Oh, sounds on the heels like Shrek 2 invented goop.

[Sean Fennessy]

Shrek 2. I think it did invent goop.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. I mean, Cameron Diaz and Gwyneth Paltrow are good friends. I don't think Gwyneth Paltrow has seen Shrek or Shrek2, though she did have small children around this time. But, you know, she doesn't watch the Avengers movies, so I don't think she's doing that for her friends.

[Sean Fennessy]

Gwyneth, it's Cameron. I'm working on a film right now. It's called Shrek 2. There's a plot line for my character related to supplements, and I had Some thoughts. Maybe you could have a business built entirely around Fiona and fairy godmother's lifestyle. You say what? Karen Diaz should have gotten Charlie Rose's show.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. That would have been great, actually. I would watch. They should give her an interview show. I would watch every single one.

[Sean Fennessy]

What is she interested in? What's she about?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wine? Once for Goof, she did a crunchy vegan salad and it didn't. It didn't seem like it had enough dressing for my taste.

[Bobby Wagner]

What else she's interested in retiring early.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Vacationed 10 years ago. Spending time with her family.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. That sounds very healthful. Healthy. I like that. Maybe she should have a supplement company.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that's it. I think that's all I know about Cameron Diaz.

[Sean Fennessy]

Okay. We neglected to mention John Lithgow as Lord Farquaad in the first film Command.

[Bobby Wagner]

We didn't really talk much about Farquaad and the whole Dulaq situation. What's your take on that? The song that introduces Dulac. Dulac is a perfect place.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bobby Wagner]

Welcome to Dulac. That's just some of the funniest shit I've ever seen in my life. I still crack up every single time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I see that, you know? Do you know the Muffin Man? The Muffin man, the Muffin Man. It's funny that. It's very funny.

[Sean Fennessy]

The gingerbread commitment to the bit. That was a notable moment in the movie for sure. Back when we saw it. I was more portal to Robin Hood. And the song Cassel. Why was Robin Hood French? I'm not sure. Is Robin Hood a French story? I feel like it's an English story. And yet he's sort of.

[Bobby Wagner]

Traditionally it's represented by the English, but I have no idea if it's originally French.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, sure. Because it's Prince John sir his very big. In our house right now. Oh, yeah, the Sir. His is Knox's best friend.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, interesting.

[Bobby Wagner]

Like borderline Lothario. Stealing money from rich people to give to other people is a very French ass thing to do though. So I appreciated the joke even if I didn't get it when I was five. That's another thing about these movies, especially the first one. It's like way more adult humor than kid humor. The. The kid humor is confined more to like the. The Eddie Murphy line readings and the visual gags and all those sorts of the physical humor. Yeah, yeah. But the actual script itself, there's like a lot of more adult jokes. There's like a lot of sex jokes in the first movie. And I don't think I really realized any of that until coming back to it as an adult.

[Sean Fennessy]

I don't think most people realize that. Vincent Cassel's 2001-2002 is extremely goated.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

He appeared in the film Shrek as Monsieur Hood. And then he appeared in 2002 as Diego in Ice Age, another DreamWorks Animation classic that I've mentioned.

[Bobby Wagner]

Legendary performance. He's the saber toothed tiger.

[Sean Fennessy]

He followed that up immediately with Gaspar Noe's Irreversible, one of the most challenging films ever made. A truly dark journey into the despair of relationships in this world. So that's. That's cool. Yeah, good job by him.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's doing it all, you know.

[Sean Fennessy]

Then 2004, he's in Ocean's Twelve.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, trust me. I knew that that was coming.

[Sean Fennessy]

Francois, to lure. Shrek 2 is slicker, better animated, I thought a little bit less fun. I think it's. I agree it's good, but it's missing some of the manic joke a minute Zucker Abrams style that I like about the first one.

[Bobby Wagner]

I do think it's just broadly dumbed down. Like, I do think that they were thinking about the franchise. Ification potential of the franchise and franchise. Ification potential of the franchise. That's good stuff by me right there. They were thinking about stuff like, you know, Puss in Boots being marketable. They were thinking about stuff like, how are we setting ourselves up to have, like a million different characters that can broaden this world? And that's fine. I think Shrek 2 is still a phenomenal movie, start to finish. I just think that it starts to lean away from what I think is authentically, like, really entertaining and rewatchable about the first one, which is like just that small set of characters and the relationships between them. But then again, there are people. Like, I was at a bar last night watching a Knicks game with some friends, and one of the people, when I told him that I had to go home to watch Shrek 1 and 2, he was like, Shrek 2 is my empire Strikes Back. I think it's the greatest sequel in movie history.

[Sean Fennessy]

But that implies that it somehow is like this hinge in the story where.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It'S just the same story. It's not a little morphiana. I was going to ask you, what is the central conflict in Shreks 3 and 4? What are they working through?

[Bobby Wagner]

Couldn't tell you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't remember because it does feel a little bit like a retread of the. It's on, it's what's on the inside that counts. Which, listen, in the early 2000s was an important message to be giving to young children.

[Sean Fennessy]

Now, we don't say that now. It's about what's outside. Are you beautiful? Do you have a nice house? What kind of watch do you have? What is the name of your podcast? These are the things that matter in our society today.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I did watch both of them. No. With like, you know, parent 2025 eyes. And I was like, oh, well, in general, this just seems like too fixated on appearance. You know, like if. If you made it now interesting, it would just be more about, like, it doesn't. Well, then you couldn't make this story. But it doesn't matter what the people look like. We have other things to worry about.

[Sean Fennessy]

When I. So I did watch 45 minutes of it with my daughter last. Last night, the first film. And she obviously was infatuated with Fiona, which is, yeah, very clever design by them to actually put a princess in. Even though she's not the traditional princess, but still she is. So you could draw young girls, but she was most interested in the female dragon.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, sick.

[Sean Fennessy]

The reveal that the dragon is actually in love with Donkey and that she's pink and she was very scared of the dragon all the way up until that moment when you get the close up of the dragon looking at Donkey and she's sort of like, drawn to him. And then she was like, that's probably the coolest dragon that's ever lived. You know, she was really, really in it. So there's like a series of these, like, upended expectations in the first two films. I think they both do a really nice job.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Bobby Wagner]

So you think that Alice, if pressed on it, would rate this dragon on a list, a power ranking above or below Smaug.

[Sean Fennessy]

I mean, you can't believe the kind of content we're going to get out of me and Alice. Revisiting the Hobbit films with Chris. The three of us holding hands for nine consecutive hours watching those films. Director's cuts, probably more like 10 and a half hours. I think it's going to be good stuff. The biggest dragon in our house right now is the dragon from the end of Sleeping Beauty, which is Maleficent's transformation.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So I always found that to be the most frightening part of all the Disney movies. Shout out Alice. But she's really into it.

[Sean Fennessy]

It is really scary. It's beautiful. The animation in that sequence is incredible. But yeah, she digs that part.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, that's cool.

[Bobby Wagner]

There's a great gag. I can't remember if it's three or four at the Shrek movies, where Donkey and the dragon then start a family, and the babies that they have are just donkeys with wings that blow fire. Just a funny bit.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I didn't. I was gonna show this to Knox, and then we had some behavior issues, and so I had to parent. But I was telling him about the movie he was gonna watch, and I was like, well, it's about a green friend named Shrek, and then he has a friend who's a donkey. And I don't remember the donkey's name. Turned out it was Donkey. And then they have to go on some adventures. And he immediately was just like, tell me more about this donkey. So even without having seen the movie, he was like, we will see a movie with a donkey. Does the donkey talk? Is he a nice donkey? You know, these are all good questions, but I was like, wow, there's something in the DNA of the story where it doesn't even. Doesn't have to be seen to work.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, this is a Jeffrey Katzenberg joint. And one of the reasons Meyer said he wanted to make this movie was because he wanted to work with Jeffrey Katzenberg, the producer and executive who oversaw this sort of second golden age of Disney and who launched DreamWorks Animation, one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Of the three, and the Demise of the Democratic Party. But that's okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

He has also done some unfortunate things in recent times around Joe Biden. Nevertheless, the idea that a star would want to work with an executive who's not an animator and not a writer, but has this kind of Macher producer quality. You know, this like. He's like the Irving Thalberg of animated movies from 1987 through to 2015 is really fascinating. And I think that those things that you were just identifying, that there's, like, some appeal to all of these little choices that triggers in people's minds is sort of a trademark of Katzenberg's that over and over again, even though he doesn't get credits on these movies in quite the same way, he is seen as sort of like, author is too strong a word, but a really, really meaningful driver of what these movies turn out to be. This one might be the most impressive because it's the most original. Even though it's based on fairy tales, it doesn't really. You know, it's a book, but as Bob said, it's like a loose adaptation of a book. It could have gone in any number of different directions. There are many writers on this. Like, for example, I know Terry Rossio has a writing credit on this movie. And Terry Rossio has written like a number of great films. He was a writer on Aladdin, he was a writer on the Mask of Zorros. Speaking of Antonio Banderas, he wrote a bunch of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. He was a very depended upon hand by Disney for many years for cracking these stories. But you get the idea that Jeffrey Katzenberg is very comfortable talking to someone like Terry Rossio about what he wants in the movie and what's going to work. This is something that we know, but don't necessarily talk about. And you and I have a lot of admiration and respect for the creator and the artist. And Jeffrey Katzberg is not an artist. And yet there is a kind of artistry to him knowing what little kids are going to want in a movie and maybe even what increasingly grown adults are going to want in a movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Like this, because you can lock them in at age 5 and then have them for a lifetime. Bobby, do you have tickets for Shrek 5 yet?

[Bobby Wagner]

Not yet. Okay, I will acquire them though.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Do you think this is it winter.

[Sean Fennessy]

Or when is it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Will it be like a three thing with a group of, you know, like minded and like aged individuals for you?

[Sean Fennessy]

Shrek 5 is not coming out till December 23rd, 2026.

[Amanda Dobbins]

What?

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, it's so. It's 18 months away.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wow.

[Bobby Wagner]

So they were officially 30 and a half years old sitting in that movie theater.

[Sean Fennessy]

So crazy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

For sure. Life comes at you fast, big guy.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah, it sure does. It sure does.

[Sean Fennessy]

Will you get a Shrek popcorn bucket?

[Bobby Wagner]

I thought you were gonna ask me if I'll get a Shrek tattoo to memorialize this final appearance here on the biggest.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Did you have any Shrek merch as a kid?

[Bobby Wagner]

I don't think so. I mean, again, I know I mentioned, briefly mentioned the video game. I played the video game a lot.

[Sean Fennessy]

What did you have to do?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, what happened in the video game?

[Bobby Wagner]

It was largely set in the world of the second movie so far, far away. And you kind of have to just basically do a lot of the things that they do in the sequences, like the action quote, unquote, action sequences of this movie. So, you know, getting into Fairy Godmother's Factory, the prison break sequence, which obviously it's really funny timing that we're doing this because it references Mission Impossible with the Mission Impossible theme song, needle drop, things like that. You know, you gotta fight the knights, you gotta ride donkey when he turns into a horse, things like that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And like, what's the goal, like, what's the princess in the castle?

[Bobby Wagner]

I honestly don't remember. I think to defeat fairy godmother, I guess.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, sure, yeah. Jennifer.

[Bobby Wagner]

Well, a lot of phenomenal memories of playing that on gamecube.

[Sean Fennessy]

I did not realize that was her until I watched this movie, but it makes sense. And when you look at John Cleese and Julie Andrews and Jennifer Saunders and it's that old thing that non animated films do where they're also just like, let's just draw in as many British people as possible.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Rupert Everett.

[Sean Fennessy]

Rupert Everett.

[Bobby Wagner]

Which is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Again, when I saw Wicked and I thought the donkey was Rupert Everett and not Peter Dinklage, I had another moment watching this where I'm like, I don't want to get my hopes up. Is it actually Rupert Everett this time? And it was so. That was pleasing to me.

[Sean Fennessy]

Would Wicked Part 1 have been significantly better if it were Rupert Everett doing the goat voice?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, he's a goat.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a goat.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. I trust him to know because I.

[Sean Fennessy]

Don'T care about what if it were Mike Myers doing the Shrek voice.

[Bobby Wagner]

Now we're talking. We're talking.

[Sean Fennessy]

Mike Myers should just do the Shrek voice all the time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Not like, unrelated to what we're doing here. And there are a lot of wizard of Oz references in Shrek too, but it's, you know, bringing all the, like, fantasy land, fairy tale things together, but in a slightly different way. I gotta say, I respect Shrek's approach more.

[Sean Fennessy]

He's gonna cry himself to sleep tonight on his huge pillar. You gotta get into sewing, married and axe murder.

[Bobby Wagner]

You guys. Are you guys familiar with the fact that. So when Spielberg came to Rachel Zegler for. For the remake of west side Story, she was in a high school production of Shrek the Musical, which is an adaptation of Shrek for the stage. And she told Spielberg, I will do west side Story, but I would like to finish it out with my high school stage troupe. And he was like, yes, you can do that. So they delayed the start of filming for west side Story because Spielberg closed the loop on loving Shrek.

[Sean Fennessy]

Have you ever seen any clips from Shrek the Musical on stage? It was on Broadway.

[Bobby Wagner]

No, out of control.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, you didn't go, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What is. What are they dancing to?

[Sean Fennessy]

Deeply upsetting. I. The guy's outfit who's dressed in Shrek is the latex and the makeup. This guy got in the chair every night and put on all this makeup to be Shrek for 14 months. I guess 12 months. It ran 2008 to January 2010.

[Bobby Wagner]

He's like Colin Farrell making the Penguin. You know, we're going to give him an Oscar just because.

[Sean Fennessy]

But every night, six nights a week.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And then he's like, break dancing. This is really. That's not what you want. Who did Rachel Zegler play in Shrek? Well, it's not really a great part. You know, maybe she was Donkey. I think she could be good at that.

[Sean Fennessy]

She was a little. She's a bit wee for Shrek.

[Bobby Wagner]

Well, you never know. We could bulk Rachel Zegler up.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, the suit, get her on some girl creatine.

[Sean Fennessy]

Shrek?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Shrek the Musical. I didn't know that existed. Wow.

[Bobby Wagner]

Now you do.

[Sean Fennessy]

Do you think Rachel Zegler would be a more surefire thing at the box office if she took girl creatine?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think if she were in Shrek 5, no problem. You know, maybe she is. Oh, that's true. But this seems bulletproof.

[Sean Fennessy]

Who's in the cast of Shrek 5? As we get down to the end.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Of this conversation, Is Cameron Diaz back? I mean, they have to have all of the people.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah. I'm wondering who the new voices are. Maybe they're not sharing that with us. Well, you know, Chris Meledandri, who runs Illumination, took this over, so this is now kind. I don't know if it's officially under the Illumination banner.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

But he is the only one.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Energy, like, coming full.

[Bobby Wagner]

Guys, I have some huge news for you about the cast of Shrek 5. There are four people who are confirmed.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, tell us, tell us.

[Bobby Wagner]

The first three people are Cameron Diaz, Mike Myers and Eddie Meyer. Eddie Murphy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Of course, number four.

[Bobby Wagner]

As you suspected, number four is a little movie star named Zendaya.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Stop it.

[Bobby Wagner]

I swear to you.

[Sean Fennessy]

They announced this in Cinemacon. Do you know who she plays?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Their daughter.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, my God.

[Sean Fennessy]

Fiona and Shrek's daughter.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Good for her. Good for everyone. She is a legend.

[Sean Fennessy]

So is she an ogre or is she a human? Or does she have the same affliction that Fiona has to deal with? Like what?

[Bobby Wagner]

But I think that Fiona has gotten rid of the affliction. Affliction? I think that she is just an ogre. Her fullest form, with her true love, Shrek.

[Sean Fennessy]

Did they explain how she had, like, ogre qualities even though she was born of a spell?

[Bobby Wagner]

Oh, a spell was cast.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But the spell, when they went full.

[Sean Fennessy]

Spell, they were like, we're going permanent spell.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Spell was. Until you have your true love's kiss, you won't be your real form. And then Shrek is her true love. So they kiss, and then her real form is Shrekness. You know, so they can be together. That's what loves us.

[Sean Fennessy]

But just like, biologically, can two humans give birth to an ogre? Like, have we explored this on science?

[Bobby Wagner]

But they're not humans. They're two ogres.

[Sean Fennessy]

But they were also under a spell. I'm talking about her parents.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, like Julie Andrews and John Cleese.

[Bobby Wagner]

Oh.

[Sean Fennessy]

Like her parents were humans. So they just gave birth to a true spirited ogre.

[Bobby Wagner]

Yeah. I believe if we want to really get into the biology of it. No, they gave birth to a human and then the spell was cast on her to turn her into an ogre.

[Amanda Dobbins]

At night because the ogre is her true self.

[Sean Fennessy]

But her father was not just a normal human. You remember, Fairy godmother alludes to the fact that she did a favor for him. And at the end of the film, he's turned back into a frog.

[Bobby Wagner]

A frog. Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Gen Z.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a good point. But does a human and a frog making. Having sex create the. An ogre's true spirit?

[Amanda Dobbins]

We don't know the genetic details of this world. You know, we don't know whether they have germs.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is. If you don't get vaccinated and we don't. You fuck a frog and then you give birth to an ogre. Like this. This. These movies are dangerous.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But ogres are good.

[Sean Fennessy]

Are they, though? They're eating rats.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Universe.

[Sean Fennessy]

They're. They're actually quite grouchy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Is about accepting ogres. I listen. Kettle on that one.

[Sean Fennessy]

No. This is my favorite moment of watching this with Alice.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessy]

I was. We're like 15 minutes into it. And. God, she's the best. Donkey has arrived.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessy]

And he's in Shrek's house. And I was like, alice, do you understand what's happening in the movie right now? And she's like, yeah, Shrek needs space. Donkey won't give him space. This is. I was like, yes, that's exactly right, sweetheart.

[Amanda Dobbins]

By the way, I Need Some Space has come on heavy Montessori. Really, really, really coming through.

[Sean Fennessy]

Oh, my goodness. Shrek needs space.

[Bobby Wagner]

Ogres are like onions. Ogres are not like. Cake is really a really great. I love that line. I think that's so funny.

[Sean Fennessy]

This is. I was gonna say a beautiful pair of films. I don't know if I actually believe that. I think there's something a little bit rickety and weird about these movies, but I like them.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that they are useful cultural artifacts and they did make me laugh. So that's fine.

[Sean Fennessy]

What would you compare them to culturally? Is this like the work of Jackson Pollock?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, what is other sort of.

[Bobby Wagner]

Like, you know, Cy Twombly?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Hey, yeah, no garbage version of a form, of an art form that then helps you reflects the moment that it came from. Because this, I mean, 2001, weird ass year in every single way. And a real cultural turning point.

[Sean Fennessy]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This being the lasting cultural artifact makes a lot of sense.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yeah, I think it's. This is going to seem like a strange comp, but I think it's correct. The first season of the White Lotus and like the aftermath of, you know, the pandemic and DEI and you know, like all the kind of panic culturally around that time and a, a writer just having like just the right voice to kind of excite people and annoy them by what they've done. Like this movie weirdly sure unlocks an idea about fairy tale and the, the vision of self in a pre Instagram world that you know, it's right. It is, it is kind of crushing, I think, don't you think?

[Bobby Wagner]

I think that the, the message, the underlying message of the movie being obviously it is couched in the aesthetic view of yourself and your self confidence. But I think the underlying message being find a way to be the most authentic version of yourself and find someone who wants to be the most authentic version of themselves is actually a really nice message and I think holds the movies together through all of their, you know, all of their out of the side of their mouth jokes, all of that sort of like joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, all of that quickness. It's not actually irony poisoned like most animated movies and most superhero style kid entertainment is these days. It's pretty sincere based on the scale that we have and the rubric that we have now for our childhood entertainment. And I think that that is, I think that's nice. I think that's why I'd endorse.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's a beautiful sentiment. Before we go, Bob, what Bob Highlights. Did you want to circle? Since he's given so much to this show over the years, man.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean I really, I think about long drink every single time. Every single time I have some protein, I think of Bob. Every single time I watch a baseball game, I think of Bob. I think you guys have really brought me back to the sport of my youth.

[Sean Fennessy]

It's nice to hear.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Isn't that amazing?

[Bobby Wagner]

Baseball's so fucking back. Baseball's big thing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's so back. And it's so great.

[Sean Fennessy]

And.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I guess I'll think of you when I watch Miyazaki, which is increasing. Porco Rosso, you know, is something that you both gave to my life. Whether I wanted it or not. I don't know.

[Bobby Wagner]

I think the Miyazaki episode was one of my favorite episodes to do because for the same reason that you guys mentioned in the Spirited Away 25 for 25, that it could be me, you, Charles and Andy all having something tying us together, the generations of the new masculinity coming together to talk about Spirited Away. And Miyazaki is really nice. Amanda. Our biggest win was Top Gun Mav. We held out forever and always.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's true.

[Bobby Wagner]

We doubled down the hat.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, you know what? And then when we saw what Dead Reckoning Together and the in that beautiful theater and when Tom Cruise does the motorcycle off the thing and I just like, basically held your hand like Thelma and Louise. That was really nice. I'll always think of that. And think of that.

[Bobby Wagner]

You're like, that's the thing. Yeah, they're doing it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

They're doing it. It was very fun.

[Sean Fennessy]

I'll always think of when Bob and I saw the Beekeeper together and I was vibrating at a high intensity. And I got home and immediately I saw that Bob smashed the one star button on letterbox and he absolutely broke my heart. Was it two stars? I thought it was one star. I remember being like, come on, man. You betrayed me. Bob is.

[Bobby Wagner]

I had fun.

[Sean Fennessy]

It was very fun and also politically insightful. Bob is my baseball brother for life. I think we will probably be texting about the Mets until we die. You are like, just a tremendously important part of the history of the show. And there you got us out of a lot of pickles. Over the years. You helped me solve and troubleshoot a lot of problems. Dealing with extremely famous people and talking to them is complicated business. You acquitted yourself wonderfully every time. I could always trust you in the room or over zoom with people. Also, the pandemic was really crazy. It was really hard for us to make the show. And the show kind of in the aftermath of that Deacons thing obviously transformed pretty significantly during the pandemic. We've heard that from a lot of people over the years. And you, you helped carry us through that. So we are forever grateful to you and we wish you greatness in the future.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We will miss you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yep.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We are sad but happy for you.

[Sean Fennessy]

Yes. And come back for Shrek 5 podcast.

[Bobby Wagner]

Book it 18 months from now. That is all really nice. Thank you, guys. I really do appreciate it. It has been an utter delight. My time at the ringer has been more than I could have ever bargained for when I first started here. Anxious during my McHugh interview. It has been so fun to get to be able to watch movies for a job is such a treat, such a pleasure. Sean, you say this all of the time, but a lot of us here may never work on another show that's like this ever again. Where it's like we get to hang out with a bunch of people that we like, talking about things that we like most of the time. When we're not having existential crises about the box office, one of us here can relate to it more than anyone else.

[Sean Fennessy]

Who are you referring to? Was that you doing that?

[Bobby Wagner]

I do. I do have existential crises about the box. I care a lot about these corporations, as you know. You know, to the big picture, listeners like you all are so delightful. It doesn't always have to be like this when you have a big audience. Of course there are people who are complaining about this and that, but when I meet people at movies or whatever, everyone is so kind and supportive of what we've done and I don't take that lightly. It's always been something that's important to me to work really hard and try to make the best version of the show that is possible. You guys work incredibly hard to make this show for listeners. And so I always felt like I needed to try to reach that level as well and contribute as much as possible. So, yeah, it's surreal that it's been this long and that it's ending that. When I first started working with you guys, I was 22. It's like actually very upsetting for me to think back on the 22 year old version of myself trying to represent myself as well as possible. Even though I won't be producing the show, I won't be working at the ringer. You can all rest assured knowing that I will see you at the movies.

[Sean Fennessy]

Nice. I love it. Well, Bobby, thank you for everything. Again, thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. What are we doing next week?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, God, I have no idea. Let's see. Hold on. Wait for it. Oh, movie draft chaos central.

[Sean Fennessy]

So we are doing the 2000 movie.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Draft and you're gonna do the order.

[Sean Fennessy]

Specifically Bob, one last time. Bob's final appearance.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. With the Top Gun.

[Bobby Wagner]

I will do the order with the Top Gun. One final one and then we'll have to find a way to get Jack Sanders a Top Gun.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, we could. I. I tried to get one for Knox one year, but.

[Bobby Wagner]

That's what I said.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We. We'll talk about licensing at a later date. Offline.

[Sean Fennessy]

The movie draft we're doing is 2000, and I don't mind saying that we're bringing back the crew from the 1999 movie Draft. So this should be intense, chaotic. I expect full bloodlust from Rob Mahoney coming for your neck, and I hope people enjoy it. We'll see you then, Sa.