The ‘Sinners’ Surge. Plus: The Val Kilmer Hall of Fame!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture - "The ‘Sinners’ Surge. Plus: The Val Kilmer Hall of Fame!"

Release Date: April 23, 2025

Hosts: Sean Fenasee and Chris Ryan

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Introduction

In this episode of The Big Picture, hosted by Sean Fenasee, the discussion zeroes in on two major topics: the surge in popularity of the film "Sinners" and the creation of a Val Kilmer Hall of Fame. Joined by guest Chris Ryan, Sean delves deep into the cinematic elements, marketing strategies, and the enduring legacy of Val Kilmer.

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Discussion on New Movie "Weapons"

[02:24] Chris Ryan:
"I did."

Sean and Chris commence by exploring the teaser trailer of "Weapons", directed by Zach Kreger and starring Josh Brolin and Julia Garner. They express excitement about the film's marketing approach, which includes an immersive online component through a GeoCities-style website, enhancing the movie's narrative depth.

[04:14] Sean Fenasee:
"Broler. Brolin gets an incredible Brolin moment in the full trailer, which maybe you should avoid."

The hosts discuss Brolin's standout performance and the strategic decision to distinguish the film from Pedro Pascal's overexposed roles in other projects.

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In-Depth Analysis of "Sinners"

Overview and Themes

[05:20] Chris Ryan:
"I put them in. I wanted to keep them from you."

[06:23] Sean Fenasee:
"But the movie isn't just about the vampires. It's about the community, their history, and the timeless struggle between good and evil."

"Sinners," a film by Ryan Coogler, is lauded for its rich storytelling and thematic depth. The movie transcends typical genre boundaries, weaving historical and philosophical elements seamlessly into its vampire narrative.

Character Analysis

[14:35] Sean Fenasee:
"In Sinners, Remick the Irish Vampire presents empathy and politeness to form unions, showcasing a nuanced antagonist."

The characters in "Sinners" are meticulously crafted, with Val Kilmer's portrayal adding layers of complexity. The interaction between the characters and their environment underscores the film's exploration of personal and collective sins.

Marketing and Box Office Insights

[22:00] Jordan Ritter Khan:
"Or is it that we're willing to take the bait on what a production budget is and what a marketing spend is?"

Sean and Chris dissect the film's box office performance, debating the implications of ownership reversion deals that grant Coogler long-term rights over "Sinners." They explore how these strategies might influence future film productions and studio relationships.

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Ryan Coogler and Ownership Reversion Discussion

[25:00] Sean Fenasee:
"Ryan Coogler is redefining the studio system by balancing traditional marketing and long-term ownership, setting a precedent for future filmmakers."

The conversation shifts to Ryan Coogler's innovative approach in retaining ownership rights, a move that could empower filmmakers and alter the economics of film production.

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Transition to Val Kilmer Hall of Fame

With the analysis of "Sinners" concluding, Sean introduces the second major segment: honoring the late Val Kilmer by establishing a Val Kilmer Hall of Fame. This segment celebrates Kilmer's diverse career and lasting impact on cinema.

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Val Kilmer's Career Retrospective

Early Career and Breakthroughs

[38:05] Chris Ryan:
"He is one of the most engaging, hilarious people to listen talk about films that he's been in."

Val Kilmer's journey from early comedies like "Top Secret!" to iconic roles in "The Doors" and "Heat" is examined. His ability to embody diverse characters is highlighted as a testament to his acting prowess.

Notable Performances and Roles

[44:32] Sean Fenasee:
"Val Kilmer's performance as Doc Holliday in 'Tombstone' remains one of the most memorable in Western cinema."

The hosts revisit Kilmer's standout performances, discussing his role as Jim Morrison in "The Doors," his charismatic portrayal of Doc Holliday in "Tombstone," and his emotional depth in "Heat." They also touch upon his voice roles in animated features like "The Prince of Egypt."

Lack of Major Awards

[41:23] Chris Ryan:
"You'd think he would have at least one Oscar nomination, but he never got recognized in that way."

Despite his remarkable talent, Val Kilmer never received major award nominations. The discussion delves into the possible reasons, including his association with genre films and varying on-set experiences highlighted by different co-stars and directors.

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Final Thoughts and Legacy

[94:59] Sean Fenasee:
"I loved Val. He was great. He's one of the five defining dudes of the 90s."

Sean and Chris reflect on Kilmer's enduring legacy, emphasizing his influence on both film and future actors. They lament the loss of an actor who continually pushed boundaries and inspired many within the industry.

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Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with heartfelt tributes to Val Kilmer, acknowledging his multifaceted career and the void his passing has left in Hollywood. Sean encourages listeners to revisit Kilmer's classic performances and celebrate his contributions to cinema.

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Notable Quotes:

• Chris Ryan [06:23]:
  "But the movie isn't just about the vampires. It's about the community, their history, and the timeless struggle between good and evil."

• Sean Fenasee [14:35]:
  "In Sinners, Remick the Irish Vampire presents empathy and politeness to form unions, showcasing a nuanced antagonist."

• Sean Fenasee [38:05]:
  "Val Kilmer's performance as Doc Holliday in 'Tombstone' remains one of the most memorable in Western cinema."

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This episode of The Big Picture offers an insightful exploration of "Sinners" and a heartfelt homage to Val Kilmer, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of both the film's intricacies and Kilmer's illustrious career.

Transcript

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

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[Sean Fenasee]

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[Jordan Ritter Khan]

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[Sean Fenasee]

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[Sean Fenasee]

I'm Sean Fenasee and this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about Val Kilmer. Chris Ryan is here today to join me. We are going to honor the life and work one of our favorite actors who passed away earlier this year by building his hall of fame. We're also going to talk about the movie Sinners. I've been eager to get Chris Ryan's take on Sinners before we dig into that. We were talking about the Odyssey R. Oh, yeah. And we've been on. We've been on an odyssey of movie stories these last few months. You watched a trailer this morning?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I did.

[Sean Fenasee]

MAN ON thankfully. You know your relationship with trailers.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

Is shifting every day.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Zach Kreger has a new movie coming out, Weapons.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think I'm also on the record. Teasers are fine.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Teaser. It's the three minute. It's the five minute final trailer here's all the footage that we finished before the. You know, I've seen Thunderbolts now, so I feel similarly.

[Sean Fenasee]

When I was in Las Vegas, they did in fact show a full trailer for weapons. They did not show this teaser which has been released. This is the follow up to Barbarian, a movie that we've been looking forward to, got bumped up to an August release date, has been described as Magnolia. But horror. I feel like we're going to end up regretting that framework as something that I keep repeating on the show. But what do you think of this teaser trailer?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I can't wait. I'm so excited for this movie. I am also really into the way that they are packaging and promoting it. So it's a 45 second teaser. This is a movie from Craig, obviously stars Josh Brolin and Julia Garner among other people. And what you can divine from the trailer is that there is obviously this small town where all these children go missing, apparently voluntarily. In the middle of the night you get some sort of security camera footage of kids running away with their arms outstretched. Kind of makes me feel like there's a Slender man piece in here. The teaser ends and you are given a URL to go to. I believe it's maybrook missing.com which takes you to a late 90s early aught style GeoCities news site that is documenting this story. I looked at it a little bit, not too much. So Blair Witch is in the mix. This idea of creating a extra textual like reality for this movie looks cool. I love hearing Brolin that timber just talking about, you know, those kids just ran out. They weren't abducted.

[Sean Fenasee]

Broler. Brolin gets an incredible Brolin moment in the full trailer, which maybe you should avoid.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But I'm also just so psyched to see him in like doing work with like a guy. Like Cragger is like a cool director.

[Sean Fenasee]

In a big movie. I totally agree. That part, I believe was originally meant to be Pedro Pascal. I think we are a little. We're in Pedro Pascal overexposure mode right now. So I'm kind of grateful that with the last of us going, would you.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Like to talk about it?

[Sean Fenasee]

The Fantastic Four, the Mandalorian and Grogu coming. We've gotten a lot of Pedro. I actually like Pedro A meme.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think it was from. Or maybe it was a cartoon from the New Yorker. Who could even tell anymore? And it was. Somebody was getting an ultrasound of their baby and it was Pedro Pascal and the caption's like, man, he's in everything these days.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, he's a little overexposed. And so I'm grateful that Brolin's got the look in weapons. I'm pumped for weapons. It feels very similar to the Long Legs playbook, too, of, like, how can we create a viral marketing sensation out of a movie that, you know, on the surface looks like a pure horror thriller, which, of course, we love on the show. Speaking of pure horror thrillers.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. So, Sinners, Should I open a CR6 pack?

[Sean Fenasee]

Do you have six. Do you have six takeaways?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Five and a half, I think.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

So it's like.

[Sean Fenasee]

Did you make notes about them?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I put them in. I wanted to keep them from you. I have, like, a whole other doc here.

[Sean Fenasee]

Phenomenal. I love it. I want to be surprised. This is a new film from Ryan Coogler, which has been a box office sensation. Or has it? Yeah. That stars Michael B. Jordan. It's been covered quite aggressively here at the Ringer podcast network and frankly, in all of movie media, because this is a movie that people who love movies have been begging for for a long time. You yourself. There's one thing I want to share with you, which may be in your notes, but I want to cite it because I thought about this hard over the weekend, knowing you were seeing it when we did our Nosferatu pod.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

You said out on Dracula, in on Vampires.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yes.

[Sean Fenasee]

One of the great takes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Not one I agree with, but a great take. You also said recently out on twin movies.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. Oh, out on twin performances. For the twin performance entirely. Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

But so the movie Twins you're in on because not twin performances.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I. I mean, that's fine if they would like to document that. But like, for the Deuce, for people playing their own twins, I mean, even Tom Hardy and Craze, like, I. It's just. It's just not. It takes me out.

[Sean Fenasee]

The Parent Trap. You're out.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No. Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay. Okay. So this is a conundrum.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I was confronted with a lot of myself in this theater, you know, Were you? But I came out fucking loving it. And Jordan, I thought was great. I thought he was great as smoke and stack. It takes a little while to be like, and he does this and he does that, and kind of divining the differences between the two. But the color coding for their outfits and then obviously their romantic affairs and everything about their personalities comes clear. I have a couple of things I wanted to throw at you. I listened to you and Van and Amanda, but I was gonna try and find new things to talk about or different things to Talk about, number one thing I loved about this movie. Not only a great all in one day movie, but a great one crazy night movie. Taking out all of the horror of it. It's just like, let's open a nightclub is an incredible, like package to put a story in. Yep. And I think that I've been thinking about this a lot because of Andor and Last of Us are stretched out across years and years and years. And film still can do compression better than any, any visual storytelling medium. It's really exciting to watch a filmmaker have to say everything he wants to say about a bunch of characters and a story and give himself this. Not only the runtime of the film, but especially like this, these borders of this is how much time is going to elapse. And you know, it's, we're only with these guys. I saw people being like, I want the Smoking Stack Chicago prequel. I'm like, no, this is the most important day of their lives. We got it.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's a great way of thinking about it. And we, we talked about that a little bit on the pod, which is just that the conveyance of information in the movie is really well handled because there's a ton of exposition that has to happen about where these guys have been, what life was like 20 years ago when they lived there, why they need to open a juke joint, the history of these vampires. Like there's just so much data that he needs to fit in. Basically a two hour movie. And it never feels like overweening. It never feels overbearing.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. I think because most of that exposition is happening for it's in the foreground and in the background there's a nightclub scene going on. Or you're in a train station in Clarksdale in the 30s and you're like, this is magical.

[Sean Fenasee]

This is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I can't believe he's doing this. So I really enjoyed the tempo and the tone of it. I also really loved Coogler's pride and affection for the characters not getting in the way of effective storytelling about the characters. Probably for a movie of this scope. And honestly, for a movie of this genre, it's either a very rote adaptation of something like, you know, like Nosferatu, like retelling a vampire story, retelling even an Am Ray story or whatever you want to say, or, you know, when we think about like Coogler's previous work in Black Panther and just the marvel ification of a lot of storytelling, that there's just a lot of armor around characters because they might be needed Elsewhere we might be needed again for whatever reasons. And I'm sure you could find a workaround for, for this. But I just thought like this was old school. You love these people, but that doesn't mean that they're going to make it through the night and it doesn't mean that their sins aren't going to come back to haunt them. Uh, so I thought that that was great. And I mean it just felt liberated from intellectual property.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, it's. If we don't want to spoil this for anyone who has not yet had the chance to see the movie. It's hard to say specifically what you're saying, but this is a movie with stakes two times. Two times, yeah, for sure.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

And that's really uncommon in big movies with movie stars that are genre.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I think that we, we probably grew up with more of an experience of like, oh yeah, in an action movie, like sometimes the good guy might die or you know, but like this, this really felt like a throwback to that. And I know that he's been talking a lot about this is rooted in my experience of going to the theater in the 90s and the kinds of, kinds of movies that he would see. So it's really cool. Just generally speaking, watching this, I was like, to make a great movie, you kind of have to think your movie is going to be great. And he makes him makes this movie with the swagger and self belief that it's not perfect, but it has the capacity for greatness because of how like it. It's just like, hey man, I'm doing the top button.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

There's music everywhere. There's going to be color, there's going to be spirit, there's going to be all this stuff. There's going to be moments where I'm going to try. That might not work for everybody, but it felt. It's a really interesting counter to Black Bag, which is so buttoned up and is like this is the perfect double to left. And I've, you know, to me even better than that, it's transcendent to me, but it is like playing within itself. Whereas this is like there are no, there are no lines to color inside of.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, I think they're both, both of those movies are interesting because I think for us those are probably the two best films of the year. They're two great working filmmakers who work in different modes. Soderbergh is so contained and self sufficient and is like shoots it himself, edits it himself, conceives it himself. Holds the camera. He feels like a one man factory. He's not. He has a writer, he has, you know, costume designers and location scouts and he's working with tons of people. But it feels like he's a one man machine. Coogler goes out of his way to say, I've got this incredible team of department heads and all the people that work for them. I've got this coterie of actors, some of whom I work with all the time, some of whom I'm working with for the first time. He has a real like family vibe. And so because it feels more sprawling and it is, it's just more daring, I think Black Bag feels commercially daring at a time like this. But Black Bag has like a nine.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Minute dinner scene where you're just like, I can't believe this is happening. This is incredible.

[Sean Fenasee]

You know, but there were times in movies when stuff like that happened. So, yeah, I mean, they're sort of like, they're ill fitting comp points, but I think they're both just made by people who were just born to make movies. And so it feels exciting watching them do their thing.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I. You guys talked about this a little bit, but I just wanted to reiterate how exciting it is to watch a truly awesome filmmaker work within genre and use genre as basically the language or vocabulary to communicate his ideas. So this goes back to, I mean, it goes back to the beginning of storytelling. But for me personally, like, I, I think I really, truly started to feel this way when I was introduced to the movies of Godard and Sergio Leone, where they're taking quintessentially American genres, but looking at it in a much different way to say things about both America and film and archetypes that are just so invigorating and they re energize the entire genre itself. So using vampire horror to communicate things about God. I mean, like, there are so many interesting ideas in this movie. But I kept thinking about, like, what it means to feel safe, you know, because these people are trying to create a space that is protected from the outside world for one night. And at every single place, like, you know, there's, there's this invasion happening. But that awesome vampire trope of you have to invite them in is this, it's this like temptation, you know, throughout the film, throughout the second half of the film that I thought was just fascinating to watch play out.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, I, I think this is something I probably didn't do a good enough job talking about on Friday. But the entire framework of Remick the Irish Vampire played by Jack O'Connell, presenting empathy and politess to make union with what he wants, to get what he wants is just an incredible idea for a black filmmaker to put on screen. And the awareness of that and thinking about that specifically and the way that he's not, even though he is a demon, he is not openly demonizing Remic as much as he would demonize, say KKK members in the movie. But it's very clear that this is a quote unquote white ally who has like turned bad, you know what I mean, who has drawn someone into something, who is trying to draw somebody into something so that they can become part of a hive mind that he is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

In charge of the collective consciousness of the vampires actually really jumped out at me because this idea that he is trying to appeal to them by being like, okay, I can erase all the pain and we can live forever and we can live in true equality. But he's also like, your memories and your, your emotions are now mine.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Like there is a still like a possessive quality to the ownership.

[Sean Fenasee]

That's the whole thing.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Collective ism of, of the vampires. And just like the invoking different historical moments, different ideas from history to amplify commentary about probably our contemporary moment, which I think was handled incredibly well. Yeah, just like not too flashy. Al Capone gets mentioned briefly, you know, like Jim Crow gets mentioned almost as a phantom on the other side of the door. But it's not, it's not like you have like a Ken Burns moment where they're like, here's a picture and we're gonna tell you all about it, you know, like, and love the idea of what do you do to find transcendence? Just whether it's through music, whether it's through religion, the occult, whether it's through sex, whether it's through, you know, whatever they like you find like it's all about these characters. And at the very. The grace note of the movie is about like this awful blood soaked night was also the best day of multiple characters lives. And they were able to find like this emotional closure with everybody. But you know, I think the piercing the veil sequence is going to be one that people talk about for a long time because it's going to work for like 8 out of 10 people are going to be like, that was incredible. And then two will be like, you lost me right there.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. I think some of the feedback we got on the conversation that we had about the show was that we weren't like identifying what was happening, which is, I think all Three of us, when we were talking about it, understood that in the preamble to the film, you know, the sort of intro. And Coogler does this often in his movies where he kind of like, sets up the thematic wavelength of the story by giving you this kind of mythological tent that, you know the movie's gonna live inside of the idea of the griot, and that there is one who can kind of transcend with their artistry, and that that person is attractive and very valuable and powerful in the culture. To me, I think when we were having that discussion, we were trying to talk about kind of like the metaphorical power of that piercing the veil scene you're talking about sort of like, what does it represent beyond what it means to the story? What does it mean beyond drawing Remick in?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

That's like the siren to Remick that He's like, I need him so that I can be back with the people that I've lost over the centuries or whatever long has been.

[Sean Fenasee]

But to me, I mean, what's incredible about that is not how it fits in the story. It's about the abstraction that is happening inside of a mainstream movie. That is just so rare. To be able to forcibly pull you out of the grounded logic of a movie and show you something that is philosophical, emotional, musicologically historical, like all of that stuff, and make. Forcing you to think about how these ideas matter to the movie is really hard to do.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Well, it's. I think it's a challenge to all the fake rules of genre movies. It's like, you go in there and you're like, well, you know, vampires technically are like. And then it's like, well, vampires respectfully don't exist.

[Sean Fenasee]

They're fake.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think they can do whatever they want. He's playing by those rules. But what he's asking you is if you believe in vampires, do you really not believe that music can open a portal through time for some people, even in this moment? I mean, like, do drugs once. Like, it happens.

[Sean Fenasee]

Absolutely. It's a great point. There's one other thing that is related to that that I wanted to talk.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

About, which is that was not a do drugs to our listeners, by the.

[Sean Fenasee]

Way, should they not do drugs?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

You don't. You don't think they should do drugs? Just want to be clear on that. Only.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Only do drugs when Amanda is on.

[Sean Fenasee]

The other thing that is related to that in terms of the genre, role playing is while God and the church is a presence in this story because of Preacher Boy's father and the beginning and the ending of the film.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

The.

[Sean Fenasee]

Christ imagery doesn't matter to the vampires. There are no crosses, there is no holy water to battle them.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

That pickled garlic juice that she throws.

[Sean Fenasee]

On him, that is a great, great scene when he gets splashed with that stuff. But removing that imagery from the vampire battle I think actually puts it in a slightly different vampire framework. Like it not being reliant on the church. The Christian mythology is. Is a fascinating like a very pointed choice that I think, you know, you can read into it and say that Coogler is taking a slightly elevated kind of post Judeo Christian idea of genre. Or you can say that like when you're in the real world you were confronted by demons and you don't have just your faith to rely on.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Or you can have faith in lots of different things. You know, you can have faith in the things that Annie believes in, you can have faith in music, you can have faith in all sorts of stuff. And it's. I like the way that he makes the church scenes feel almost alien from the color palette and the feel of the rest of the movie because for, for Sammy like that's the alien world. Like the place he feels home are these smoke filled bars playing music and that's his church. So I really love that. And finally you guys talked about this. But just a grown up movie for grown up audiences with, with like Cunningus and Death and Consequences. Just the big three for me.

[Sean Fenasee]

Sex, violence, power, sucking on ladies necks. Yeah, yeah. Stuff you like.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And just a big rousing round of applause when directed by Ryan Cooler came up in the.

[Sean Fenasee]

Oh yeah, yeah, that's cool. Where'd you see it?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Just Glendale, but packed house on a Friday and you know, like this movie is carrying a lot of weight. Probably not, not. It has nothing to do with, with like the intention of the film but has become this lodestar for. Where are we going as. As you know, an art form in an industry with this stuff. And honestly like it's early days but like it's been, it's been really nice to just see a movie that you know, everybody is pretty much like it was either really fun or I thought it was fantastic and mind blowing but there hasn't been the big like actually it's not that good or you know, it ends too many times. You know, and it does end too many times and there's things wrong with it. But like yes. I don't know, I just thought let's have it, let's. Let's enjoy this for five days and not pocket watch so much.

[Sean Fenasee]

Well, it's hard to do, you know, it's hard to do it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Had a good weekend.

[Sean Fenasee]

It did have a good week. I think it's hard to have that conversation. There's an episode of the Town that went up yesterday that was sort of like an analysis of the analysis. That's where we're in this zone where we need to have an aggressive understanding of the clear profitability of a movie in a three day period. The trades we're writing about the movie in a very odd way. This is a very complex issue. I don't think that there's a right answer. I think celebrating the movie is the most important thing. The reason why I persistently talk about box office on this show, even though I think the quality of a movie is what matters to me the most, is that it does often dictate what and how movies are made in the future. This one's particularly notable because of the ownership reversion that's been much talked about where Coogler gets copyright of the film after 25 years. The suspicion is, is that like there's plants by the studios to undermine the perceived success of this movie so that nobody goes asking for these things again. Or is it the studios that are rival studios that are planting?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Or is it people who want Mike DeLuca's job, Pam Abdi's job?

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Who are saying, like, don't, don't get too ahead of yourselves. This movie actually is going to lose money.

[Sean Fenasee]

Or is it just some box office writers look at things in a very kind of linear theatrical profitability mind frame and that's an old fashioned way to think about it. Or is it that we're willing to take the bait on what a production budget is and what a marketing spend is and there's no way to verify those things publicly. The truth is, is that everything is kind of squishy in the middle. Like there's nobody's going to be like right about whether a movie is profitable or not. Myself included. Even though I can make bold claims about things.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, I feel like, you know, it was funny. It was like I was listening to Bill and Ryan talking Sunday night and they were talking about how many open threes the Timberwolves had on Saturday and Ryan was kind of going through. Well, it was this. But if you, if you take out the last two, which were garbage time, and then you. I go back and watch them all, it's like this. And then you kind of think the number keeps shrinking. Yeah, I think you could do that. Same kind of like. And the longer Ryan talked, I was like, he's right. Because I was at the game. I was like, he's right, he's right, he's right. But I was also like, you can feel the point losing its headline grabbing ability because it's now a much more nuanced conversation. Sinners. Whether or not it's profitable or not, it just doesn't really matter to the whether we get up on Wednesday or not. But. But there's so many different ways that this movie is going to be spun out over the next couple of years. Whether it's getting licensed to Netflix, its impact on Max when it hits Max, whatever VOD it makes. Like people going to see it three times, but like that not necessarily getting reported in a month when we're distracted by five other things.

[Sean Fenasee]

There's so many more output opportunities people don't think about. It's like movies are licensed to airlines, movies are licensed to hotel chains. Like, the revenue streams for movies now are coming in so, so many different directions. And a movie like this, which basically has as strong a word of mouth as you can possibly have for a movie that is not known IP is, it is a. It is going to be a flowing river of revenue over the next 10, 20, 30 years and so, well, up.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

To 25 years, well, then that revenue.

[Sean Fenasee]

Will pour directly into Ryan Coogler, which I think is wonderful.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's also funny that people are like hand wringing about Ryan Cooler getting the rights back. It's like, do we really think there's going to be a Warner Brothers discovery in 25 years?

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. I mean, the thing that is interesting to me about that specifically is this has been attempted in various ways throughout the history of Hollywood. So there's been a lot of comparisons to what Quentin Tarantino did once upon a time in Hollywood. And people like a lot of comparisons of like literal headlines against the success of those movies. To me, they're like, that's a real apples and oranges situation. Quentin Tarantino, hugely established filmmaker, literally a genius at making movies. Also working in a movie with Leo and Brad Pitt. So let's not compare these two movies. It's pointless. Secondarily Cooler seeking ownership of the film, but staying inside the studio system to make it is interesting and different. Like, it's different than United Artists and actors banding together to build their own studio. It's different than Francis Ford Coppola and Zoetrope using the studio system to then like build up his wealth and springboard into his own system. It's not that different. It's a little different, but not that different from George Lucas retaining ownership of Star wars or Star Wars Merchandising or Lucasfilm. That's the one to me that I feel like is a little bit misunderstood, misrepresented as a comp point. Yeah. Because that is something that if you have the power to create characters that people love and I think, don't get me wrong, Sinners is not going to be Star Wars. But if you have fallen in love with Smoke or Stack or Mary or Preacher Boy and you own that, you can continue to iterate on that forever or until you decide to sell it back to Disney or Warner Brothers or whomever. So I think one of the reasons why you get that Vulture piece that's like, could this ruin the studio system as we know it, which has been working so damn well for the last 10 years. What would we do without the studio system? The challenge is that Coogler's doing something really interesting, which is he's having it both ways. He is using the tools of the studio system, deal making and financing for the movie. He's using the relationship with exhibitors. He's using the marketing and publicity teams that are getting the movie in front of people. But at the end of the day, he will get to own it long term. To me, I don't want to break the whole movie going apparatus, but I do actually think that this could and probably should continue to happen in different ways. There are different permutations of this. And like movies are defined by this in some ways. So I don't whatever anxiety like people who work in the business have. I'm like, you're going to be dead before it changes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

There's also that attitude that I feel like it's, it's funny, it's like when a studio decides actually we're not going to put your movie into theaters, there's like a much more mild uproar about them going back on their word or cutting the legs out from a title by like taking it out of theaters 12 days later and putting it on streaming.

[Sean Fenasee]

Or they control the ways and means.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Just I don't give a but like flushing Batgirl down the toilet after it was made.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

There's like, oh, you guys should have done that. But this somehow has been like a three week news cycle of like the existential threat Sinners, a not profitable film poses to Warner Brothers that you guys spend all your time. And I don't mean mad, I just mean like the you guys of the world. Being like, we spend all of our time second guessing and Monday morning quarterback in Warner Brothers. Someone makes like a different kind of deal with them and it's like, what? What's going to happen? Yeah, they'll be fine or they won't.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, there's two, there's two related strains to that as well. One of which is, I believe this data point is right, which is that One studio has two films grossing over $40 million in the same weekend for the first time since 2009, when Avatar and your favorite movie of that year, Alvin and the Chipmunks. The Squeak.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No, that was my Disney weekend. I loved it. I actually personally wrote a check to.

[Sean Fenasee]

Rupert Murdoch thanking him to all of Walt Disney's relatives. I think the fact that that is a true statement is amazing. And all of the hand wringing that myself and many others were doing about the future of Warner Bros. And now we're confronted by basically again, once again, the thing I said on the pod I think is true. When the Minecraft movie came out, I was like, this is amazing that this movie's doing well so that we can get more. One battle after another. We're sinners. Like there's meant to be this correlative relationship between big movies for everybody that make kids happy, that make parents happy, that are four quadrant. Those things should always exist. There's nothing wrong with that. Whether you like it or not. So that you can take a chance on an unusual Ryan Coogler original film. So the fact that they're both working is cause for celebration, not undermining.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I also, I have not and will not see Minecraft if I can help myself.

[Sean Fenasee]

What if you love it though? Like, seriously, what if you love it?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

First of all, Jack Black was at that Lakers game on, on Saturday and got like a fucking larger applause than. Than like Rui Hachimura for sure.

[Sean Fenasee]

So we're doing 35. Over 35 movie stars next month.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He top five.

[Sean Fenasee]

He is making an incredibly strong bid right now. I did not really fully understand his power until I saw the success of this movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Is he more successful than Brad Pitt?

[Sean Fenasee]

There's a strong case for it. Like a very strong. Anyway, continue.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

The thing that's cool about both Minecraft and Sinners being in the theater right now is that even though Minecraft is an adaptation of a piece of video game ip, it hadn't been made before and Sinners is an original story. I think people can be like, you know what, Phoebe Waller Bridge, just like leave Tomb Raider in the past. Make something new. I Want. I. I just hope that this is a signal that we are like breaking free of the like. Well, we have this stuff in our library, so let's see if anybody has an original take on X piece of. Even if it's like Michael Bay making out run with Sydney Sweeney, that to me feels like 400 blows compared to like what we've had in the last five years.

[Sean Fenasee]

You know, I agree with you. I've been banging this drum since the Barbenheimer Super Mario brothers year. Michael Bay is making Outrun the video game Outrun with Sydney Sweeney. Apparently Michael Bay and Sydney Sweeney are making a movie together.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Do you understand how hot she's going to look in that movie? Like just between you, me and the cameras going out to the Internet.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. Well, what about her performance? Like, what kind of a performance will she get?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think she's going to be like, it's going to be like Sophie's Choice. Like she's definitely getting nominated for an Oscar in her performance in Outrun and I'm really happy for her.

[Sean Fenasee]

Should I start playing Outrun?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You ever played Outrun?

[Sean Fenasee]

No.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

The card game?

[Sean Fenasee]

No.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Awesome. She's kind of like Spy Hunter a little bit.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's a car racing movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Sydney Sweeney is going to be a race car driver.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Look, got to give the people what.

[Sean Fenasee]

They want, I guess. So.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

This is populism.

[Sean Fenasee]

I'm very happy with the success of Sinners. I don't know if it's going to make $250 million at the box office. It kind of doesn't matter. You know, it's really. It's really just not a big deal. The movie's great. There has not been a lot of awards conversation about it because I think everyone's a little afraid to be like vampire movie. It's really bloody. There's a lot of sex in Feels.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Like kind of a layup chain two Best picture.

[Sean Fenasee]

So that's what I wanted to ask you. Is this possibly because it's an April release? The everything everywhere all at once of this year or more likely The Dune Part 2, which is to say big studio movie. It's genre. You guys liked it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Avatar is this year.

[Sean Fenasee]

Avatar is yes. December. I have no doubts about Avatar 3. I wonder Academy wise if it will be as praised as two was because it just happened a few years ago. But like, okay, you could make the case for in a world post get out post the substance where movies like that get nominated for major awards and win major awards. You could strongly make the case for picture director original screenplay Actor, cinematography, best casting, which will be a new category starting next year, starting 2026. Costumes, hair and makeup, production design, original score and original song. Yeah, like, those are all.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It could be a 10 movie.

[Sean Fenasee]

It. It really, really could be. I don't.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

They definitely also could rerelease this at Christmas, like, or Halloween and scare the shit out of yourself.

[Sean Fenasee]

Halloween is a great idea. That's a really, really great idea.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I only in IMAX for two weeks. Sinners. Like, like, that's. That's a. That's an easy.

[Sean Fenasee]

I agree.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Do.

[Sean Fenasee]

I agree. And I think it would work. And Coogler has made films that have been nominated for best Picture. I mean, he. Black Panther was nominated for best Picture. Like, this is not out of the question. And I just haven't seen much conversation about it. Maybe this is the place where you should be having the conversation on this particular podcast. But movies and awards. Yeah, and I don't know that. I'm not saying like, this has to be nominated for best Picture because who knows what the year will hold, but it's pretty clearly the most exciting movie thing that has happened in almost four months.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, I think it's always great. The first half of the year can be a little bit ups and downs because you get dump you area which is now March, and you know all these things when you get to May and June and you get a movie like this and you get a movie like Black Bag and you're like, it's gonna be pretty exciting if there's like 10 movies better than that.

[Sean Fenasee]

Right, right. And that is how I think about it too. I'm constantly like, okay, because I always.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Think about that with tv. Like, you know, I'll see Ripley or Industry and I'll be like, man, if TV is better than that this year, my job is gonna be easy.

[Sean Fenasee]

I'm not sure if a lot of stuff's gonna get ahead of Sinners and just in terms of like the pure. Especially the second time I saw it, I was like, this is really euphoric at times. Like, there are aspects of this that are getting right to the top of how excited I get about movies. So like the moment I keep coming back to is just a very simple one. But the movie flashes back on it because it knows how powerful it is, which is just Stack is driving with just Preacher Boy and he tells him that he starts playing guitar and his.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Face when he starts reaction and we're.

[Sean Fenasee]

Gonna make some money now. And just the timbre of Miles Caton's voice in that scene where I was like, this is fucking.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

That's how I feel. It makes me feel so excited when Herlene is performing and is doing the stomping.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And it's cutting around to all the different things that are happening in that point in the film. But they're using the rhythm of her performance as like the editing intercutting.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes. With a dude getting stomped out in the other room. It's such a smart move. That's the song I would probably put up, Pale Pale Moon, which is written by Brittany Howard from Alabama Shakes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, cool.

[Sean Fenasee]

And she sings a version of it on the soundtrack. You could see. I could see that being performed at the Academy Awards.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yes.

[Sean Fenasee]

You know. Okay. Any other sinner's thoughts? Thank you for going down the slide with me once again.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No, I saw your syllabus and I agreed.

[Sean Fenasee]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Thanks.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Also Just awesome to have a big Hollywood blockbuster that's making people think about tons of other movies.

[Sean Fenasee]

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[Jordan Ritter Khan]

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[Sean Fenasee]

Let's make a transition to Val Kilmer. Yeah, so you mentioned this idea of the imperfect with the ecstatic with sinners. And I would say that Val had that as an actor, a kind of fascinatingly erratic rise pushed through the mainstream top of the poster star system. Guy who runs Hollywood for a period of time sure has a fairly precipitous slide down in terms of his stature, but the things that he did when he was at the top are forever. Performances are like things that you just. You cannot be more excited to be watching an actor doing his thing. What is your lasting memory of him as a performer?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Well, there's a Paul Newman line in Color of Money where he calls Tom Cruise an incredible flake. He calls his character that. I think about that for Kilmer, just an incredible flake. And what I mean by that is has all the tools of a quintessential movie star. The looks, the presence, the charisma, humor, romance, action can do everything and is just a fucking weirdo.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yep.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And it's just a real weirdo. And in some ways, like we can talk about him for 30 minutes here. I would really recommend people if they can find any films that he has done director's commentary on. He is one of the most engaging, hilarious people to listen talk about films that he's been in. Kind of like Affleck just has like a great sense of humor about making movies, but also his own performance. He is not too precious about them. You know, obviously like an incredibly tumultuous career, but magnetic when he is on screen. No matter who you're sharing the screen with, even if it's Pacino or De Niro, you're like, what is he doing? I'm always watching Val Kilmer. And so, yeah, really tragic loss.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. He passed away at 65. He was diagnosed with cancer about 10 years ago. Always some controversy in some of these conversations because he was a Christian Scientist and his relationship to treatment and medicine. There's an absolutely wonderful piece about him that our friend Chuck Klosterman wrote 20 years ago for Esquire when he went out and visited him at his ranch and spent some time with him. And I think that weirdness. Chuck got a real handle on, that sense of humor, that sense of mythologizing that he was very good at, the sort of the casual name dropping that he's doing with people like Bob Dylan and kind of associating himself with these legendary figures, but also being self deprecating at the same time. This wonderful portrayal of his relationship to his kids. Like, it's a very affecting, but also just like very humorous and fun piece. If people have not read that, I highly recommend they check it out.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I did the audio when that was collected. I did the Val Kilmer's voice for the audiobook.

[Sean Fenasee]

Did you?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I didn't know that Chuck did that piece. He got Val Kilmer to leave me a voicemail message, but it's like lost.

[Sean Fenasee]

To a. Oh, no, I've never heard.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

That flip phone back.

[Sean Fenasee]

What did Val say?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He was like. It was basically, I think he said, like, is this Chris Ryan? Welcome to the West? It was something like, really weird, but it was really cool.

[Sean Fenasee]

That's so special. I love that.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But it's like, you don't know when that. When you're like, I have this dumb phone that I have like a T mobile plan. How do I save this?

[Sean Fenasee]

That is amazing. Yeah, he. I think, you know, part of it, I'm sure, is the fact that for us specifically, generationally, you know, he's kind of in the firmament very quickly in terms of movies, because in the early part of his career, he makes these, like, very silly movies that are very fun when you're a kid. And then he kind of transitions into this icon of cool as Doc Holliday, Jim Morrison, Kris Shiherlis. Like, he takes on a handful of parts where you're just like, God damn it, has anybody been better at commanding the screen? And yet as an actor, no Oscar nominations, no Golden Globe nominations, no major nominations of any kind in his entire career.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Do you think that's because he's usually the best thing in a movie that is, like, pretty genre, or is it more about, like, his kind of relationship to the town and complicated?

[Sean Fenasee]

I'm sure it's a combination of both. I think he was probably best known for stuff that we would describe as genre. I think he. The reputational stuff cuts both ways because for as many people as you say, this was the most incorrigible, difficult, complicated and annoying person I've ever worked with. If you want to read about it, look at what John Frankenheimer had to say about him publicly about working with him on the island of Dr. Moreau. It's extremely unkind. On the other hand, if you ask Drew Barrymore or Kurt Russell what it's like to work with him, they have nothing but praise. If you ask Mira Sorvino, they say he was an angel. So I think he was a complicated guy. And I think on some productions he was tough to work with and on others he was great. I get the impression he was better to actors than to directors. Sure. David Thewlis, you know, spoke after he passed away about his experience working with Val on Dr. Moreau.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Dr. Moreau. And it's like, that's an all time tough production, Brando, and like four directors and everything that happened.

[Sean Fenasee]

So there's a remarkable documentary about that movie called Lost Soul that is mostly told through the lens of Richard Stanley, the original director of that movie that I highly recommend that people check out. But. But I was trying to think about who are the actors that are not recognized in their time from roughly the last 50 years. There are people like Edward G. Robinson and Donald Sutherland who were never nominated. Who. You're like, that's insane. They're just in 12 all time classics. And then there's also your amazing character actors like your Alan Rickman, your Steve Buscemi, your John Turturro. You'd think they would have one Oscar nomination, but they don't. To me, he reminds me the most of Bruce Willis and Richard Gere, where these were locked and loaded movie stars, underrated, great actors. But if you talk to other actors, they would be like, this guy had it. And for whatever reason, because of whatever movies they were in, whatever associations they had, they never got that recognition. And now we look back on Val's career and I'm like, to not get nominated for Tombstone is just weird.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's kind of weird to not get nominated for the Doors. I mean, fully agree, you know, Tombstone is an interesting one. Just because I think that movie became. I remember that film coming out. Was that in the aftermath of Wyatt Earp or before Wyatt Earp? But there was these competing wires.

[Sean Fenasee]

They were being made about the same time.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And Wyatt Earp is huge Costner film that Lawrence Kazan was making. It was sort of supposed to be this American epic and Tombstone was kind of like the B movie Shoot Em Up. At least that's the way it was presented. Yeah. And Dennis Quaid's really good as. As Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp, but Val Kilmer is on like a completely. Speaking of sinners, he's piercing the veil as Doc Holliday, man. Like, he's talking to everybody. And that's my favorite performance of his. But I think it's been now properly rated. I think it's now like people have gone back and been like, I'm your Huckleberry. And this. This way of being this consumptive, charming cat of a killer is. He nailed it.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. And it has become kind of a cliche. It has been regurgitated in style in the past. I think maybe his beauty worked against him a little bit in this respect. I think that's something that works against gear and that gear doesn't get recognized in the same way. But he was chameleonic. I mean, he really would. He would gain weight, he would grow his hair out, he would put on stupid beards. He would change his voice. And sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. He tries out an Irish accent in Ghost in the Darkness. That is. It does not work. You know, like, he took chances that didn't work. But a fascinating career. So you want to go through the films?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Sure, man. I have a tremendous amount of affection for real genius still to this day.

[Sean Fenasee]

I. Well, Top Secret comes first.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. Oh, you want to go through like.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, let's go through chronologically. Here's the problem. I think we can go from 1984 through 2005. And I've seen just about every movie. Most of these, I would say maybe one or two I'm missing.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And then the second half up to.

[Sean Fenasee]

I haven't seen Maverick almost every movie he's made since 2005, with a handful of exceptions.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Red box and independent stuff.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes. So I don't. We don't need to belabor the discussion of every movie made in the final 30 years, but I think a little bit of time for these. These early ones is important. Top Secret, part of the Zucker Abrams trilogy of greatness with. Alongside Airplane and the Naked Gun, recently reissued on 4K, along with top Secret, one of my wife Eileen's favorite movies of all time. A kind of rock and roll spy movie spoof that I'm going to yellow in this conversation because I think it's really important and I think the original film is really meaningful. And we'll come back to it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

Real genius is green.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Real genius is green. And this is. Oh, if this guy wanted to be, he could have been Bill Murray or like Tom Cruise. Yeah. I mean, I just meant for his comic timing and the way he would, like, walk into a dorm room and make six jokes that were all, like, asides and, like, now I'm gonna say that for the rest of the 80s.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. I just. It's a moral imperative sequence when he's talking to the lead, which is so memorable to me. And it's just like, this movie's a total cable classic. He's very convincing.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

And it's interesting to think of him operating at the same time of this. That class of 80s actors. Like, you know, he was supposed to be in the Outsiders, and he passed to do a play, quite famously part in the Outsiders. I don't know who he was going to be, but he was at the time doing a play with Kevin Bacon and Sean Penn.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Wow.

[Sean Fenasee]

And so neither of them are in that movie. And he was in that cohort of guys. He was in that. Cruise, Penn, Michael J. Fox, Kevin Bacon, Matt Dillon, Dylan, Patrick Swayze, that whole crew of people. He was a true contemporary of 1986.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Are you a real genius or a Weird Science guy?

[Sean Fenasee]

Oh, real genius, by a mile. Weird Science, I think, is. I'll tell you something crazy. I actually prefer the TV show Weird Science, which aired on the USA Network, and I quite enjoyed. Just gonna put that in there.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Is Kelly LeBrock's not in that one, though? No.

[Sean Fenasee]

But Vanessa angel is in the TV series, so I'll leave that with you. 1986, Top Gun.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. What can you say?

[Sean Fenasee]

Iceman.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Going in.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And if you take it out of the context of what happens to Tom Cruise in this movie, like, and what happens to him going forward and how this catapults him to an almost singular contemporary level of stardom. He kind of goes toe to toe with him.

[Sean Fenasee]

He does.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Until they kind of, you know, hamstring him in the last act. But he's. He's, like, not giving an inch in the locker room scenes and, like, when, you know, in the volleyball scenes and stuff, he's like, it's my movie.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes. There was a very touching moment at Cinemacon when Tom Cruise came out and was like, let's have a moment of silence for Val and everything he gave us. And it's interesting to think of those guys as being neck and neck for a long time in terms of stardom. And then, you know, things coming all the way back around with Maverick, 1988. Willow. He played Mad Martigan. Willow movie, that was super important to me. I saw it in a movie theater when I was 6 years old. This is Ron Howard's absurd fantasy movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Nice partner movie with Princess Bride.

[Sean Fenasee]

Very much. I'm gonna. What are your thoughts on Willow?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Let's yellow it.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Because I think we're gonna get through a bunch of. I think the thing that's cool about Willow is this is another one of his. Like, he is the movie star, but the whole point of Mad Martigan is that he's like this goofball, like, trapped inside of King Arthur's body.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. There's a little Han Solo in the character. A little bit of the, like, who me? But also, I'm the man. I really love it. As I was watching it again last night, I was like, I see what critics meant when they weren't kind to this movie when it came out. But when I saw it as a kid, it was a classic. Like, this is my. This is my shit. Kill Me Again.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

This is him and Joanne.

[Sean Fenasee]

Joanne Wally. This is where he. He met Joanne Wally on Willow. They were opposite each other and they fell in love. And then they made another movie together called Kill Me Again. I had never seen this movie until this week.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

John Dahl, like a comedy thriller.

[Sean Fenasee]

Not very funny.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

An extremely violent, depraved neo noir about a dame who comes into a guy's office and says, hey, I'm on the run from my boyfriend who I stole money from, and I want you to kill me. Or at least make it seem as though I've been killed so that he leaves me alone.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

The old Fletcher. Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

And John Dahl is on a run here of this movie. Red Rock. The Last Seduction and Rounders. That is Unfuck Withable. This is my least favorite of those four films. Still pretty good.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I remember this as a trailer at the beginning of a lot of VHS movies, but I don't remember seeing this. I think because of the trailer, I thought it was kind of supposed to be a little daffier.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. It presages Reservoir Dogs in terms of films where Michael Madsen tortures a guy's face while tied up.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Does he do that in this movie?

[Sean Fenasee]

He does that in this movie. He actually does it. To John Grease of the White Lotus fame. Good movie. I just wrote down this is not going in, but I didn't realize that Gore Vidal wrote a version of the Billy the Kid Story, which was produced for tnt, a four hour movie where Val Kilmer plays Billy the Kid in 1989.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

T&TBs actually reliably hammered out some pretty decent westerns in the 80s.

[Sean Fenasee]

They did broken Trail, very notably. Right.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Some Louis lamoure stuff. Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

1981. The doors kind of has to go in.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

I mean, he literally becomes Jim Morrison. Becomes Jim Morrison. The members of the band are like, that's Jim Morrison. I think Robby Krieger was like, that sounds better than Jim Morrison when he would listen to the recordings.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

An absolutely ridiculous but amazing movie, but a performance for the ages.

[Sean Fenasee]

I think a wildly flawed movie, but when Val is locked in, especially during the band performance scenes, it's quite eerie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

There's also, like. I don't know if I actually thought this before he did it, but you know, when somebody gets cast in a iconic, historically significant role like this and you're like, oh, yeah, nobody else could have ever played this. That's how I feel about Val Kilmer as Jim Morrison's. Like, how I kind of feel about Daniel Day Lewis's Lincoln, where I'm like, oh, Lincoln's a rap now. Like, don't try and do Lincoln again.

[Sean Fenasee]

Has there been a Lincoln since Lincoln?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, in Manhunt, the Apple TV series. Hamish Linklater plays him.

[Sean Fenasee]

Hamish Linklater. He's a pretty. Pretty good Lincoln. Casting. I think he's a stringbean. He's quite tall, brown hair. How is his Now Now Now?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He didn't do Now Now Now.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

All right. That's too bad. Thunderheart.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I actually kind of dig this movie.

[Sean Fenasee]

So it's very good. Michael Apted.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Kind of a. Kind of a grungy FBI Western. I'm not sure what the source of it is. It's about a part, Sue FBI agent who goes to investigate the murder of a man on a reservation. And there is a conflict between the local people of the town and the reservation. And there's a kind of Chinatown esque scheme going on behind the scenes. Sam Shepard plays Val Kilmer's partner. Val is the lead.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Shepherd is really good in this.

[Sean Fenasee]

Phenomenal in this film, as is Graham Green. This is one of the best Graham Green performances. The character that Graham Green plays, I think appears in other novels. And there was like a big desire.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

For like a Thunderheart expanded universe.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, exactly. He plays the reservation cop and he's so cool and so smart in this movie. It's a very good film. Michael Acton didn't make a lot of movies like this. You know, best known for, like the seven up documentaries.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He had made a documentary about. About Leonard Peltier right?

[Sean Fenasee]

He did, yes. About that, that murder on the reservation some years ago, I think. I think the doc came out like a year before Thunderheart too. So he was the Oglala Nation, like. And he's kind of proximate to all of that at the time of this movie. Really?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Deacon shot it.

[Sean Fenasee]

Did he?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. That explains why it looks so fucking good. I like it. I'll yellow it. I don't think it's going in. Val is good. Yeah, it's, it's. It's an encouraging performance for him.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And this is kind of where you're like, okay, like you're going to be the lead of like, really good movies for like the rest and then, you know. You know what I mean? Like, I think he's probably looking at this as a step down from the Doors in terms of how it's featuring him or how it's elevating or platforming him, but.

[Sean Fenasee]

Well, it has something in common with the Doors, which is that he has a kind of like a Native American like Fantasia moment moment in consecutive films, which is very unusual. I think the thing it does is it cements him as Guy with a Gun. Like he can do Guy with a gun and a leading man on the poster. The real McCoy. I'll tell you what, I've never seen it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Me neither.

[Sean Fenasee]

This sounds on paper like it would be good. Russell Mulcahy of Highlander fame directing a bank robbing dramedy starring Kim Basinger as a recently paroled bank robber. And I think that Val Kilmer plays her parole officer.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh.

[Sean Fenasee]

Terrence Stamp plays her former employer who wants her to do one last job. And there's some friction in the planning. The movie like is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Was kind of been an actor in the 50s, because these are all 1950s movies.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. He does have a classical approach and a classical look, for sure. Will McCoy's not going in 1983. Tombstone. We've already talked about it. That's green. This is a great, great film.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

How much screen time does he have in Tombstone?

[Sean Fenasee]

Not a lot.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, not a lot.

[Sean Fenasee]

Six scenes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

There was one recent time where I rewatched it and I was like, oh, my God, man. I think. I think he's only on screen for like five scenes, you know, like.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, I think there's some incredibly memorable ones. There's some unforgettable ones. Obviously the final confrontation with Johnny Ringo is some of the best acting you'll ever see in your life. But I'm more partial to the gun flipping showdown.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Frederick fucking Chopin.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay. True romance. Small but crucial role as Elvis Presley unseen.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You don't see his face.

[Sean Fenasee]

You don't see his face. You do hear his voice. He inspires Clarence at a moment in which Clarence, played by Christian Slater, needs inspiration. It would be odd to put a film like this in the hall of Fame, and yet it may be. Maybe it's the second best movie he ever appeared in.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

I mean, you know, it's like it's Heat and then. Is it this movie?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, it's top four, probably. At least.

[Sean Fenasee]

I don't think it's going to go in, given the work that we have to do, but I'd like to yellow it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay. Batman Forever.

[Sean Fenasee]

I think there is a case now. I'm not a big Batman Forever fan. I remember being disappointed in theaters and getting that first feeling of like, am I too old for this movie? And I was 13 when I saw it. He's not a bad Batman. And it is in the first line of his obituary.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yes, it literally is. He played Batman and Jim Morrison.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes. There's. There's seven guys who played Batman in a movie, and he's on that short list. So I don't know. What do you think? This is his hall of fame, remember? Not his hall of Fame of great performances.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think you have to put it in there.

[Sean Fenasee]

I think so.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think. I think it. I mean, I don't even know if I think. I'm sure listeners are like, why are you guys even deliberating this?

[Sean Fenasee]

I agree.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Let's make. I think it would be kind of interesting to go back. Maybe next time Batman is in a movie or we can actually do it for Superman. But you basically go back through and all the people who have played Batman and Superman over their careers and what it did to their careers, for better.

[Sean Fenasee]

Or for worse, Batman effect.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Thinking about this with Superman just coming up and, you know, Corn Sweat's like a really cool actor, but, like, this is a lot. Very early to be a jumping.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's a big jump.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

You're more likely to cast an unknown into Superman rather than Batman.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Needs to be Batman.

[Sean Fenasee]

You need some power. But also you have the mask Superman. It's his face. It's an ironic aspect of it. Usually you'd want a notable person in a Superman role because you see his face. But it's kind of like how the NFL is dominant. You know, they got helmets on. 1995, Heat. Have you seen Heat?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Can I just say, when we saw it at Coolidge, a one of the greatest movies ever made. And awesome to watch it with a full theater. He's just vibrating on screen like, he is, in some ways, taking the film the most seriously of anyone in the movie. And he's acting with Pacino and De Niro, who legendarily are, you know, monkish, kind of dedication to their performance.

[Sean Fenasee]

Chris seems possessed. Yeah, he seems possessed in the film.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think possibly that's because it's a. Largely, he doesn't have a lot of dialogue. And so, so much of Neil and Vincent's dialogue has now become, like, memes for me. But Chris's face when Charlene gives him the no Go sign at the end, and, like, him being like, I just got shot again in his face and getting in the car and driving off.

[Sean Fenasee]

Where can I get some bread?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's a hotly debated topic online at.

[Sean Fenasee]

3 o'clock in the morning.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And it's sad because it's like there's another version of this world where, like, he had gotten to participate in Heat, too, if it had gotten off the ground. I mean, obviously his character is a huge part of Heat, too. So I don't know if he would have. Obviously, like, Val Kilmer at the end of his life, would not have been able to do that. Val Kilmer in 2002 probably would have been able to do that if. If he had wanted to make that.

[Sean Fenasee]

He definitely could have.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But if. If people want to, like, continue with that character. It's the best part of Heat, too, is the Chris Sharula stuff.

[Sean Fenasee]

Heat is the deepest and darkest green that we've ever had. We are in the forest of green for Heat. The island of Dr. Moreau. This is a bad movie. It's a movie that you can very clearly tell has been hacked up and reconstituted and reshot. Marlon Brando is doing deeply bizarre things in the film. Val Kilmer's performance, you know, he got word that he was being served divorce papers by Joanne Wally during the making of this movie, and it reportedly spun him out. And his performance is not bad.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's quite strange with Divorce Papers from Eileen when we're doing one battle after another and see if it spins you out.

[Sean Fenasee]

I'm really working very hard to avoid that.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Because you're Dr. Moreau. We have to reshoot the pod five times.

[Sean Fenasee]

My entire life is just looking forward to one battle after another and not getting divorced, and you all of a.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Sudden have an Irish accent.

[Sean Fenasee]

Island of Dr. Moreau. The performance is not bad. And also, he dies halfway through it. It's just like the movie is considered a Legendary disaster. So it's red.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. I'm not gonna put Dr. Moreau. I mean, it's fine to have this as this is probably. If you look at the films that come after it, he basically needs to wait for Shane Black and Oliver Stone to save his career.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, I mean, he's. He's officially on the backside now. The Ghost in the Darkness is the next movie. This is a movie. Here's my take on this movie. If you made this movie 99 more times, it would have been better. All 99 times. I rewatched about an hour of it last night. This is a film written by William Goldman based on true life events about a man who goes to Africa to build a bridge. And during that bridge building, two lions start attacking the construction of the bridge.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

They gotta get the hunter.

[Sean Fenasee]

So they gotta get the hunter. The hunter in this film is played by Michael Douglas. Movie's produced by Michael Douglas. Michael Douglas was not meant to be the star of the movie. I think Sean Connery and Anthony Hopkins turned down the role that Michael Douglas went on to play. In Goldman's conception, it was a Burt Lancaster type.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And then Michael Douglas. Dick Cheneyed it.

[Sean Fenasee]

He came in.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It turns out I am the best one.

[Sean Fenasee]

Dick Cheney'd it. And he also rewrote the character and I think significantly weakened the movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

This movie and the Rob Reiner film North were the most excited I was ever for movies that disappointed me in the 90s because of Premiere magazine.

[Sean Fenasee]

That's another great episode. We should do that. We should hold that. And we'll redo that in a quiet week. Ghost in the Darkness, directed by Stephen Hopkins. I wish it was better. It's not. It's. It's red. And again, he's doing a very poor Irish accent.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

1986. Dead girl. Have not seen the film.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Never didn't know existed.

[Sean Fenasee]

Oh, no. He plays doctor.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's red. 1997. The saint, recently recently featured on the Rewatchables. This is a movie I like. Is it green?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Well, it's certainly.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's a good use of Val Kilmer.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. And it's a great example of him being. I could still be a movie star if everything clicks together. It's not a film that I like revisit, but I think it can be yellow.

[Sean Fenasee]

We have six greens right now. We'll yellow it for now.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

Now, you haven't seen the Prince of Egypt.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I haven't.

[Sean Fenasee]

There are a great many people who have and who would. This was a Dreamworks Animation feature. One of the early DreamWorks films and was a very big movie. And Val Kilmer had a dual voice role as both Moses and God.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Those are two great roles.

[Sean Fenasee]

Those are important roles in this world. And you more of a Moses or a God, would you say?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I thought Moses really got after it.

[Sean Fenasee]

You know, like, definitely early in the morning.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

One of the.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

One of the great early writers.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes, absolutely. He was banging it out.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. And now God could claim authorship of the commandments. But, you know, to me, that's like a more of like a Bill Simmons kind of Zach Lowe kind of relationship. You know, it's like, interesting.

[Sean Fenasee]

I'm going to let that sit right there. The Prince of Egypt. There is a pocket of the community that would say this is an automatic green. Sure. I'm not going to do that.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I've now decided to start respecting communities. Because you guys got Minecraft to $700 million.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's a good point. It's a really good point.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Lots of people out there.

[Sean Fenasee]

Can I get to a billion stuff? Did you see that sinners made $7.8 million on Easter Monday?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. Because, like, apparently nobody went to work on Monday night.

[Sean Fenasee]

Sick. I know. We did. Like assholes. We both.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Like. I was. I saw it in my calendar where it was like Easter Monday and I was like, did we have Easter Monday off at school?

[Sean Fenasee]

Christ has risen, bro.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

You forgot about that, didn't you? Thinking about Moses. You forgot about Christ moving on. The Prince of Egypt is going to be red.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

At first sight. Saw this on a first date in high school.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Was really excited to be dating this girl. This is Pre Eileen. Oh, yeah. And she liked it. And I didn't.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Do you.

[Sean Fenasee]

Didn't work out.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Still know what this girl's up to. Do you? Does she know what she missed out on?

[Sean Fenasee]

Tell you what. She knows what I'm up to.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

That's all that matters.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Does she follow you on. On platforms?

[Sean Fenasee]

I honestly have no idea. I have no idea where she is. She also has a very anonymous sounding name. So there would be. Not even in a way to like, look her up.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

She went. She was your girlfriend from camp.

[Sean Fenasee]

Her name is Jim Johnson. Yeah. No, I don't know. I don't know what that gal's up to. Hope she's happy at first sight.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

If I remember correctly, kind of came at the end of a wave of films where really hot guys had debilitating illnesses in movies or in this case, he's blind. Yeah. Not debilitating, Ellen. You know what I mean? Like baboon Heart where Christian Slater has untamed heart. Originally called Baboon heart.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. Because he does have a baboon heart. Yeah. That's a beautiful.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Is Marisa Tomei in that one?

[Sean Fenasee]

She is. I have actually recently spoken about this film on the podcast as a movie that I quite liked.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I feel like there's another one. I need a third for a trend.

[Sean Fenasee]

Well, another Christian Slater movie. Pump up the volume. Where he is racked with an erection throughout the entire film. Harry Hardon, persistent pulitis.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Talk to your doctor.

[Sean Fenasee]

At first sight. It's a funny one. It's directed by Irwin Winkler, who's the legendary producer of movies like Rocky and Goodfellas. He has directed some movies in his career. Not very good. And Aldo. Nights at First Sight is based on an Oliver Sacks story. Awakenings. Awakenings. The great science writer. It's not a good movie. It's read. Joe the King is Frank Whaley's directorial debut about his experiences as a young boy. And Val Kilmer plays his father. I have seen this film, though not very many have. And it's not very good.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I remember it coming out. I don't think I ever saw it.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay. 2000 Pollock. He plays Willem de Kooning in Ed Harris's biopic of Jackson Pollock's life, which I did kind of cruise through last night. And he's in one scene and he's got four lines of dialogue.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay, so probably not a green.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's a red 2000 red planet. This is the other of the Dueling Mars movies from 2000 along with Mission to Mars.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

This is Carrie Anne Moss and Tom Sizemore. A reunion with Sizemore sounds like he did not enjoy his experience with Val Kilmer on the set of this film.

[Sean Fenasee]

They did not like each other.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Much prefer the De Palma movie.

[Sean Fenasee]

Mission to Mars is interesting.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

This movie is not very good. It's red. The Salton Sea. There's a hive here. There's a hive for it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Can I cook? Can I cook my meth? This is a great late Tarantino ripoff and DJ Caruso directed it. It's about Val Kilmer. Police kind of two roles. Danny Parker and Tom Van Allen. One is a meth head gangster. Not gangster, basically crook. And the other is a like jazz saxophonist who has like a totally normie Hollywood life. It is so convoluted. It's got like triple crosses with multiple law enforcement agencies involved. But has a great cast and absolutely obscenely stupid Vincent D'Onofrio performance where he plays a drug dealer whose nose has fallen off from overdoing coke or meth. Fantastic. Sarsgaard, maybe one of his first film roles. And Val Kilmer is a great.

[Sean Fenasee]

You.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Know, like, classic William Holden. I'm in a noir, and I am your narrator guy, so I really like this movie. But this is also my kind of movie. Like, I will watch the most dog shit version of a guy playing multiple cops against each other while doing drugs and performing robberies and playing sex.

[Sean Fenasee]

I might be able to give you this one.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

We don't have a ton left, so why don't you put it in yellow, okay. And we can come back to it.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay. The Salton Sea is yellow. I agree. It's very good. This feels like a movie that is based on a book, and it's not. It was a spec script that I guess Tony Gaten wrote.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And DJ Caruso is, like, pretty decent.

[Sean Fenasee]

Like, he makes pretty good movies, I would say. After this movie, I thought things were going to be very exciting. And then he goes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He did Suburbia, right?

[Sean Fenasee]

Disturbia, he goes. Taking lives with Angelina Jolie and Ethan Hawke, which I don't think is very good. Two for the Money, which you love. And isn't Disturbia, which is pretty cool.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Eagle Eye.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think we saw Eagle Eye together.

[Sean Fenasee]

I think you're right. Who's Monahan in that?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, it's. It's Shia and Monahan.

[Sean Fenasee]

How about our Monahan stock? I mean, just, wow, this is. We're gonna come back to Munger and Buffett.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Do we just. We invest in quality.

[Sean Fenasee]

I feel like I. My offshore accounts are exploding with Monahan. Like, it is remarkable in episode six or whatever, where I was like, who is this lady's 50? This is insane. Anyway, he.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Caruso has made not some not great movies, Chris. He made the Disappointments Room. He made Return of Xander Cage, which I know is your favorite triple X film. Have you seen 2024's Mary, which he directed? It was a Netflix film, I think. About Christ's Mother.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No.

[Sean Fenasee]

It stars Noah Cohen.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

That's Christ.

[Sean Fenasee]

No, Noah is a girl.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

She's married, the titular character. You haven't seen that one?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I haven't.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay. Anthony Hopkins in that movie as well.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Do you have any thoughts on International and Mobieris role coming up? Got the Conclave.

[Sean Fenasee]

My guy is. I've already chosen my.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Your guy?

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Is it Pietro? No, he's like, kind of.

[Sean Fenasee]

He's the conservative.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

My guy's gonna do fine.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But you're not gonna say who your guy is.

[Sean Fenasee]

Why would I Reveal that information just.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Like your high school girlfriend do.

[Sean Fenasee]

I just say this girl's name just So I. Yeah. 2002, hard cash. A film I have not seen.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Me neither.

[Sean Fenasee]

We're getting into tricky territory.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Feel free to add us at Hard Cash if Hard Cash is a classic that we don't know about.

[Sean Fenasee]

2003, Wonderland. Pretty good. Pretty good, pretty good. Now, this is the film in which he plays.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Talking about a John Holmes movie, waiting for the other one to be like, it's.

[Sean Fenasee]

Is it okay for me to say I like this movie about John Holmes being coked out of his mind?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, this is.

[Sean Fenasee]

And robbing garbage.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Boogie Nights.

[Sean Fenasee]

It is. It comes, you know, some five, six years after Boogie Nights, retelling at least one section of Boogie Nights in particular, the Wonderland murders, which transpired in 1981. Who directed this? James Cox. He also co wrote the screenplay. Not an illustrious career as a filmmaker. The movie, it has the Rashomon approach where it has a number of different perspectives in terms of telling the events of the night that I think works pretty well. Crazy cast. Harry Fisher, Lisa Kudrow, Josh Lucas, Christina Applegate, Tim Blake Nelson, Jeanine Garofalo, Kate Bosworth.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, Kate Bosworth's the lead, right?

[Sean Fenasee]

She's the lead, yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yellow.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, I don't think.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I don't think it's going to make it, but it's better than Hard Cash, which I haven't seen.

[Sean Fenasee]

Definitely. He has a pretty small role in the Missing, the Ron Howard film. This is a reunion after Willow. That's going to be Red. That's Cate Blanchett and Tommy Lee Jones. 2003's Blind Horizon. I don't know what that is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Do you think he's blind again in that movie?

[Sean Fenasee]

I hope not. That would be a little soon after. At first sight. 2003, he has a very small role in Masked and Anonymous as an animal wrangler. This is the film written by Bob Dylan and directed by Larry Charles. Val Friends with Bobby D. That's how he got in it. It's red. 2004, Spartan green. Wow.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, come on, Sean, speak. David Mamet's film about a Marine gunnery sergeant who in the beginning of the film, we are introduced to him. He's training rangers. He's training, like special ops guys. And he is then put on a winding, long mission to find the disappearance the disappeared president's daughter, played by Kristen Bell. Derek Luke is also in this film. And Kilmer does Mammoth up there. I wouldn't say up there past Mantegna, but He is singing his own song with Mamet, and it is awesome. This is the truly, like, one of the, like, great late period Kilmer performance or mid period Kilmer performances. To me, the way he, like, sings the repetitive, like, hit these words over and over again. Where's the girl? Where's the girl? And then even the stuff that he has a facility with mammoths picked up, like, you know, at one point he says to Derek, Luke, he's like, you're going to have to go at half speed, baby. You know, like. Or I need you to set that motherfucker to receive. You know, like, just like those great mammoth punches to this chest. He nails every one of them.

[Sean Fenasee]

So I'm on board with you here. I think I'm a little bit poisoned by the fact that I know Val Kilmer hated working with David Mamet. And so it's a little bit hard to reconcile that with a movie. And I've gotten it in my head when the movie came out, maybe it's that I think we were just becoming friends when the movie came out.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yes.

[Sean Fenasee]

And we didn't. I don't think we saw it together, but I think we were like, yo, did you see this?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I started a Facebook group about this movie.

[Sean Fenasee]

Did you?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Just for myself, yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

An incredible amount of lore in this episode where it's like the Val. Voicemail. What the fuck, man? Great job on the press box. I thought that was very touching to hear you talk that way. By the way, I really like Spartan. I don't think I realized at the time that it was the beginning of the end for Mamet. He's literally only directed two movies since this movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yes.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's been 20 years. The second of the two movies comes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Out, like, next week on his website.

[Sean Fenasee]

On henryjohnson.com It's a prison drama starring Shia LaBeouf about a murderer. And despite all of the very difficult complications of being a fan of David Mamet's writing and directing in 2025, I think we're both excited to see it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I mean, it's just he's one of the singular dramatic writers of my lifetime. I'm just so fascinated by, you know, and obviously, like, disappointed by where his kind of career led him. But this is a great example of him taking essentially like a. An espionage story, but is more or less like a Parker novel, like, the way it is, kind of like one man against a massive conspiracy in a mission. So, yeah, I'm not sure, obviously, if he had tension with David Mamet. That's fascinating. I don't remember that story for some reason. His director's commentary on the DVD is amazing. It's very funny. And maybe it was that tension, that's what makes the performance so powerful, is because he's trying to pull away from Mamet's, you know, orthodoxy.

[Sean Fenasee]

So green for Spartan.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

For me.

[Sean Fenasee]

I'm with you. Okay. You're doing this journey with me. 2004 stateside. Haven't seen the film, don't know it. We're in the zone of what is this? I like to think of myself as a fairly completist ball knower.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's tough with some of these guys that then make seven movies a year.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

For the last 20 years of their life.

[Sean Fenasee]

You know, like in 2006, he has six movies on the board. 2004. He also, in addition to Spartan, makes Alexander a reunion with Oliver Stone, another filmmaker who he clashed with on the Doors. But Stone has said he had a great experience with him in a much smaller role as King Philip of Macedon. He plays Colin Farrell's the titular character's father.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He's giving his inheritance of being in a crazy Oliver Stone movie to Colin Farrell.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. And of being a swagged out weirdo like Colin Farrell is as well. They have a lot in common, I think, as stars where they sort of. They zag when you expect them to zig. Alexander's not going in. It's too small of a part. But it's a cool handoff, I think. Baton pass, as you put it. 2005's Mindhunters. I'm not a big fan of this movie. More of like a. It's like a horror thriller, like a psychological thriller.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I don't know that I've seen it.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's red. 2005's Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang. Green with a Bullet is green. It's a tricky one because it is RDJ's movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Well.

[Sean Fenasee]

And it is RDJ's comeback, the beginning of his revival. Val's great in it and very similar to Mamet. I think he's got a real affinity for the Shane Black tone. Absolutely. And it really makes you wish that they had more.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Like, I wish he was in other guys. Nice guys. I mean, Nice guys.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah, he would have been great in that. Just, you know, an incredibly fun kind of redefinition of the detective movie shot through the prism of the Shane Black. There's a kid, there's Christmas, There's a hot gal. All the stuff that he has, his.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Great way of viewing LA is this cesspool that is also paradise.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes. Awesome. Val's character is gay in this movie, which is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Might be the funniest performance of his career, or at least in his late career. I think he.

[Sean Fenasee]

I mean, he's. It's written as hard comedy, but not. There's one other one that I think is much funnier, but we. I don't know if you've seen that movie. We'll get to it. We're getting a lot of stacking up greens here.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay, so where are we at now? 1, 2. I think we have 3, 4, 5, 6.

[Sean Fenasee]

So we have 8. And we've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, yellows. Okay, so this is going to be interesting. This is a great career that he's had. 2006, Summer Love. Haven't seen it. Red 2006. Moscow 0, which is your other podcast. Red, though not Russian Red. Right.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Who can say? Okay, much like your high school girlfriend, there are things about Moscow0.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's all a mystery. Only for Patreon 2006, 10th and Wolf. Red.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Can you. How about you tell me the next movie we. You did see?

[Sean Fenasee]

2006? Deja Vu, directed by Tony Scott. Yes. Played from 2006 is Red 2006. This is. This is his reunion with Tony Scott as well after 20 plus years after top Gun. It's a supporting role. Is he Denzel's. Is he the agent investigating the story in Denzel's? Deja Vu is a very good movie that I haven't watched in a very long time, but I remember enjoying it quite a bit.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Is that on 4K?

[Sean Fenasee]

It's not. Most of the Tony Scott films are.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Not on 4k because they already look too fucking good.

[Sean Fenasee]

I wouldn't want to clean up the mess. I would want some of the dinginess that comes along with a great hard, cutting Tony Scott action movie. This is Red. Although I do think Deja Vu is a cool movie. Have Dreams, Will Travel. No. Conspiracy. No. Felon. No. Although some people seem to like Felon. You know about Felon?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He plays someone named John Smith.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, is this. This is kind of like Shot Caller, right?

[Sean Fenasee]

It's Rick Romanois. Like, I think it's his first film.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

And he's wearing a similar beard to the one that Nikola Coster Waldo has in that film. And he plays a guy who's in prison with Stephen Dorff and Harold Piranhao. Kind of a starter kit for Rick Romanois.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

Who's talented? I like my guy, red Delgo from 2008. I don't know. I don't know what this. I don't know what all these movies are. 222.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

One of the crazy things about the amount of shit he's doing here is that there wasn't a streaming ecosystem. So this is like straight to video.

[Sean Fenasee]

They were all straight to video. He's made a many, many straight to video movies now. It's hard to tell why that was happening. Is it because he needed money? Is it because his star was falling? Is it because he just liked to work? It's hard to say. 2008, Columbus Day. Read. 2008, the Love Guru, which you love. Michael Myers failed attempt to relaunch another franchise. He plays himself. It's red.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

2009'S the chaos experiment.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Why do I think I've seen the Chaos Experiment?

[Sean Fenasee]

This is a wild career that he's had. This is in Top Gun. And he's also in the Chaos Experiment.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, this is. I didn't see this, but I think this is a great log line. In order to make people realize about the adverse effects of global warming, a scientist conducts an experiment on six volunteers. In a turn of events, the volunteers are now his hostages.

[Sean Fenasee]

Incredible cast.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Earth Day. Saw Craig, Call me.

[Sean Fenasee]

This. This is hot IP.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

I feel like this would really work in 2025. Armand Desante, Eric Roberts, Patrick Muldoon in Chaos experiment. Yeah. That is the VOD kill team. Yeah, those guys. Okay, moving on. 2009, Streets of Blood. Haven't seen these movies. Seem fake.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

American cow slip. 2009, the thaw. Literally. What are these movies? Amazing. He worked, though. He worked his ass off. In 09. He made two four, six seven, feature film.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

American Cowslip is about an agoraphobic drug addict who wishes to grow a perfect flower while his brother attempts to save his soul and his landlord schemes to have him evicted.

[Sean Fenasee]

Sounds kind of interesting. Looks like he has a small part in this film.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

What's up with. So did you. What do you want to do about Bad Lieutenant?

[Sean Fenasee]

I like him. He's Nic Cage's character's partner in the movie. This is Port of Call, New Orleans. This sort of like.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I haven't seen this in a while.

[Sean Fenasee]

False sequel to the Abel Ferrara movie. This movie was directed by Werner Herzog. It's a cool. I think it's a cool movie. It's in my sort of second half of my Werner Herzog movies that I enjoy. It's very different from most of his movies. It's best known, I think, for that famous scene where he sort of like, thinks he's seeing lizards in the. In the office. Is it lizards or alligators? I can't remember. Maybe alligators.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's like I said, it's been a minute.

[Sean Fenasee]

Really fun cage performance that is very out there, but I don't think it's in the Vowel hall of fame. 2009. Hardwired. No. 2009. Double identity. No. 2010 the Traveler. No. 2011. Bloodworth. No. 2011. MacGruber.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

So I think this is the one I was saying, for comedy. He plays Dieter von Kunth. First of all, MacGruber is so fucking funny.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

I was. Watched all of the Val scenes last night. Will Forte, I think we're maybe not making enough of how good Will Forte is it being Will Forte.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Will Forte, also, after Val passed away, talked about what was the reality show that those guys. Amazing Race.

[Sean Fenasee]

Did they go on Amazing Races?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No. So they. While they were making McGruber, Will Forte was obsessed with Amazing Race. And I guess Val Kilmer was like, why are you watching this? And he's like, you should check it out. And Val Kilmer, like, watched it and was like, now I am obsessed with Amazing Race. And they actually made steps towards the two of them doing Amazing Race together. But, like, their management teams put the kibosh on it.

[Sean Fenasee]

That's incredible.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You imagine if we had had that, you know, Mike White's done it. Like, if we'd had Forte and Kilmer as an Amazing Race, just them talking.

[Sean Fenasee]

To each other would be magical to me. MacGruber is very funny. You know, Kilmer's not in it a ton. This is basically right at the end of when he starts working regularly. And it's probably the last studio movie he makes besides Top Gun. Maverick. No, that's not true. He made a couple of others, but I think he's really funny. Let's yellow it for now. I think I'm open to it. Being green, he's great in this movie. 2011's Kill the Irishman, which was. It was in Michael Shannon. I think it's a Michael Shannon movie, which some people seem to enjoy. I don't really have a strong memory of it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Jonathan Hensley directed it. I feel like I've seen this, but I don't remember it. Oh. Oh, I remember this poster. Yeah, this is good garbage crime 2011 twixt.

[Sean Fenasee]

I only just recently rewatched this because of Megalopoulos and Coppola. I think this is a cool Val performance. He plays an author who is trying to get to the bottom of something mysterious. In his town. That is maybe more ethereal than he realizes. It's a good performance. It's not great. Coppola apparently had been friends with Val for many, many years and they'd wanted to work together. He tried to cast him in The Outsiders in 1983 and he passed. So it's a very interesting movie in the late arc of Coppola, but I don't think in the hall of fame for Val. I've never seen Wyatt Earp's Revenge. I've never seen Riddle. I've never seen Standing Up. I have seen Palo Alto.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

As have I. And his son is in Palo Alto.

[Sean Fenasee]

Jack Kilmer's in it, which is why I think he's in it. This is Gia Coppola's directorial debut, which is an adaptation, I think, of James Franco short story collection.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. Emma Roberts is an adaptation.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's amazing what ideas I have in my head. How do I know about James Franco's short story collection being adapted by Francis Ford Coppola's granddaughter? Anyway, in 2013, I saw it in a screening room. Yeah, I remember liking it. Val's got a small part was this.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You were in LA for this?

[Sean Fenasee]

I was, yeah. It was a Grandland thing. I think it's red.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yes. 2014's Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn I never saw. But am I mistaken in remembering that he was doing a lot of Mark Twain stuff?

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes, he wrote a Mark Twain one man show that he performed for some time around America and toured with it a little bit. And I watched some of. Some of it on YouTube last night and people seemed to really enjoy it. It was sort of this like, aphoristic collection of monologues that featured a lot of the Twainisms. But that's the other thing is that Kilmer went to Juilliard, trained theater actor, wrote poetry, you know, very sophisticated guy. We were using the word weird, I think, with a lot of affection. But a real, like, artist soul. Even though he was in all these VOD movies.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think one of the things that we often. Well, we wish contemporary actors showed more sides of themselves. It often feels like these guys get kind of anointed and then shaped from a relatively young age and don't have a lot of the life experiences that inform the performances of some of the actors we grew up watching.

[Sean Fenasee]

Agreed.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

That may not be the case, but in, you know, it's like Timothee Chalamet is one of the few people where I'm like, oh, it seems like you have like a story like, you know, you came from this building in New York and you like this kind of music and you've been always wanting to do this. And a lot of these guys are like, I'm from nowhere and I have no beliefs, you know?

[Sean Fenasee]

Yes, he has personality.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. And Val Kilmer kind of to me is like, just. Just got his obsessions and his passions and his interests.

[Sean Fenasee]

Agreed. I think Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn is. Is red, but I think the work he did as Mark Twain is quite interesting. 2017, song to song, he has a small performance as Dwayne and Terrence Malick's live music fantasia. I can't say much for Val's performance in the role, which is pretty small. I can say much for his. The YouTube video of him introducing the Black Lips at South by back when this film was being made in which he's kind of channeling Jim Morrison and also continues to introduce Rooney Mara as a member of the band while they are getting ready to perform.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Black Lips fan.

[Sean Fenasee]

I was a big fan at the time. I feel like. Have they been canceled? Did something happen with Black Lips?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I don't. They are also. They could have also put out like 15 albums in the last three years.

[Sean Fenasee]

And in 2011, I was like, this is one of my favorite bands. But I feel like there's weirdness, actually. Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Did you cancel them?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No.

[Sean Fenasee]

Did that come up on the watch?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Appear on Moscow0? Quite frequently.

[Sean Fenasee]

Song to song is Red. But it's cool that Malik or that Kilmer got a chance to work with Malik the Snowman. You remember this?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

One of the great turkeys.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. Harry Hole.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

As portrayed by Michael Fassbender. This was a Thomas Alfredson, a Nordic mystery that was one of the famous bomb. I don't really remember what Val did. He played a character named Walter. Was he the villain?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I honestly, I saw this, like, I saw half of this once and was like, this is. This is a disaster.

[Sean Fenasee]

Once again, Val plays himself in Jay and Silent Bob reboot, which is yet another address.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Whether. What's the state of our askew verse pod? Because here's my. Here's my pitch to you.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Pretty soon there are going to be too many, let's just say not awesome movies. You know what I mean?

[Sean Fenasee]

Coming out later this year.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Like, I. No, I just mean in the askew verse, you know what I mean? Because, like, if you go up to a certain point with Kevin Smith, it's like, these are just stone cold classics.

[Sean Fenasee]

Right.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And now it's like he's. He's been making a lot of other askew verse movies.

[Sean Fenasee]

Like.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah, doesn't he have. He's done Clerks two and three and three. I don't. Reboot is about what happens in Reboot.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's kind of a. It's kind of a hard sequel to Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, which is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I love.

[Sean Fenasee]

It's great. The first, like, all the way up to Jersey Girl. I like all of those movies a lot.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

When we get to Jersey Girl, then I have. I think things take a turn. Yeah. You're saying, are there too many good Kevin Smith movies?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

My point is we need to do the Bother Me with Martin Scorsese. Don't have like this situation where we're like. And then from 2000, after Jersey Girl on, we have to talk about 12 movies that aren't that good.

[Sean Fenasee]

To me, it's not a Kevin Smith pod. It's the View Askew Universe pod.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

So the View Askew universe includes those first five movies, but it also includes movies like Jay and Silent Bob reboot. If Jay and Silent Bob are in the movie, if Dante from Clerks is in the movie.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I'm glad you've thought this through.

[Sean Fenasee]

If Matt and Ben, from the way they're portrayed in Strike Back, for example, are in the movie Affleck, you the bomb in Phantoms, all that.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

What about as the archangels in Dogma?

[Sean Fenasee]

In Dogma is a definitively skew universe movie. So dogma 4k coming later this year.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I know that's maybe. Maybe that's the peg.

[Sean Fenasee]

That's the peg. That's the peg. The Kevin Smith thing is tough. Here's the thing. I worshiped Kevin Smith as all guys.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Like me.it's not an understatement to say that they're like, there's not. We are not doing anything resembling what we do with our lives without Kevin Smith.

[Sean Fenasee]

He invented potting in so many ways. I think he's just a great figure in the world of movies. Since he hit the scene, I've been pretty tough on him in print a few times. So I wouldn't be surprised if he was like, you guys could right off.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Oh, I wasn't like, yeah, but I. I would be.

[Sean Fenasee]

I would happily sing his praises on a four hour podcast with him.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

And so we will do it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Moscow 0.

[Sean Fenasee]

What if I look at the Dogma 4K and I'm like, this looks like shit. He Cameron it. Why is this all green? What's with the tinting? What's with the AI crash?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I haven't Had a bad experience yet with tinting. I know you. You warned me off some of the cameras. I know that.

[Sean Fenasee]

Did you feel any issue with the Miller's Crossing?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No.

[Sean Fenasee]

That's one that there's some angst about. The Miller's Crossing criterion.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

My experience, Miller's Crossing is either on streaming or, honestly, probably vhs. So seeing it in that version and getting to see, like, the wood grain was pretty incredible. I pre ordered my Kingdom of heaven director's cut 4K steelbook.

[Sean Fenasee]

And that was $387.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It wasn't cheap. And. Yeah. And I was thinking about getting Tombstone on the same format.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah. Let's have a steelbook conversation down the road.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

I gotta get Tim Symons back in here, too. So you being able to sit with me and Tim while we do this, I think would be a fun conversation.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

To have translated into English.

[Sean Fenasee]

Who's doing the translating at this point? Jay and Silent Bob reboot is out. A Soldier's Revenge. I haven't seen it. Pay dirt. I haven't seen it. I mean, these films were made after he was using the voice box, you know, because of the surgeries and the radiation that he had. I think he had two tracheotomies. And he was still acting in films and then very memorably acting in his final role in Top Gun Maverick, where he came back as Iceman. And he shares one scene with Tom Cruise, which is mostly wordless from Kilmer. And yet tremendously emotionally affected.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Might be the last time I felt anything in my life.

[Sean Fenasee]

Hard to not weep during this sequence. And I think it has to be green. Cause it's the capstone.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. So if you feel like we're running out of room, I think you could make the argument that Top Gun and Top Maverick could occupy one slot, since it's the same.

[Sean Fenasee]

I'm hearing Amanda's voice in my ear right now.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Which is what?

[Sean Fenasee]

And it's saying, if you don't put Maverick on this list, I will assassinate you.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

But why can't we have Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick in one slot?

[Sean Fenasee]

That's not how the hall of Fame works.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

So Top Gun and Top Gun Maverick take up two slots on a top ten. Let's go through. See, we got to put real genius in there, Right?

[Sean Fenasee]

Real genius is staying. Let's just. Well, let's just count what we have. We've got. Real genius is green. Top Gun is green. The Doors is green. Tombstone is green. Batman Forever is green. Heat is green. Spartan is green. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is green. Top Gun Maverick Is green. That's only nine.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

So let's put MacGruber in.

[Sean Fenasee]

So let me read the yellows just for posterity. Top Secret, his breakthrough performance, Willow, Thunderheart, True Romance, the Saint, the Salton sea, Wonderland, and MacGruber. Now, does MacGruber belong in over. And these are the key ones to me, Top Secret, Willow and the Saint. If you had to choose.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think for a lot of people who are younger than us, MacGruber will be much more important than real genius. You know what I mean? Like, I think that, I think we have to kind of understand a little bit about the, the passage of time here. And for many people, this is like, honestly, like the, the last great. Their introduction to Kilmer. Maybe it's the last great Kilmer performance. It's, you know, the most significant. Now, I, I, I think probably I can't do this pod and I have Spartan on it, but I understand that Spartan is going to be a divisive like out there pick for some people.

[Sean Fenasee]

I think if we're doing the, the objective list, yes, Willow is on it. I think Willow is a huge movie for him in his career. If you want to. And I'm granting you my one, the.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Power to put Spartan on, I would appreciate it. And I take that power. I don't take my right to vote for granted. And I'm voting for Spartan.

[Sean Fenasee]

So what of the yellows? Do you choose, or should I choose?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

No, I think I got to push through Spartan. So you choose the yellow. Choose the last yellow.

[Sean Fenasee]

I prefer Willow to the Saint. I'm just gonna say it.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I think that's fine.

[Sean Fenasee]

So I think the Saint is cool.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

So MacGruber, not.

[Sean Fenasee]

No and no MacGruber.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Okay.

[Sean Fenasee]

Because we have real genius.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

And just to remind everybody, this is my referendum on the films themselves. And it's not necessarily even, like, how good was Kilmer? Because, you know, Batman Forever has to be on this because he played Batman.

[Sean Fenasee]

Correct.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

He was at the center of the moviemaking world.

[Sean Fenasee]

Thank you for clarifying this enterprise. Yeah, you're always a great partner in these endeavors. So then I'm going to put Willow in green. So the final list is going to be real genius. Top Gun, Willow, the Doors, Batman Forever, Heat, Spartan, Kiss, Kiss, Bang Bang, Top Gun, Maverick. Wait a minute.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You didn't say Tombstone.

[Sean Fenasee]

And Tombstone. Thank you. That's pretty good.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Apologies to some of these other movies.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

If you only have time for three Val Kilmer films and you haven't seen Tombstone, Heat or what's the third? What's the third? Essential One Doors.

[Sean Fenasee]

I think the Doors.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Doors. Tombstone Heat. You'll. You'll get a picture of the man.

[Sean Fenasee]

I loved Val. He was great. Yeah, it was great to see him in movies. He's one of the five defining dudes of the 90s, I think. Yes, right.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Very sad that he's gone.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. It's like I, I think it's, it's been, it's. And it's also just like a sad. It's like I, I thought about Bruce Willis a bunch, you know, with. In relationship to Val Kilmer and, and.

[Sean Fenasee]

At this stage of his life.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah. And just like.

[Sean Fenasee]

Yeah.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

You know, not only like feeling terribly for their families, but also like, oh, it's a shame that like the last 20 years or so of your life was kind of like spent making these kind of disposable films when we obviously would have gotten so much more.

[Sean Fenasee]

Maybe I should go back and look back at some of those VOD movies because some of those movies can be good, you know, So I don't mean to denigrate them. I just haven't seen so many of them. Well, Chris, thanks for joining me.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Of course, man. Thanks for having me.

[Sean Fenasee]

Thanks. We can hear you on Moscow0.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fenasee]

Which is a daily pod. It's a daily six hour pod simulcast on RT.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I'm also going to start doing some of those jubilee videos.

[Sean Fenasee]

You know, I don't know what that is.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Yes, you do. You don't know that. No, it's like, usually it's like I take on 20 conservatives and it's like the guy sitting at the table, I.

[Sean Fenasee]

God, we really need to parody one of those. I saw an extremely stern one this morning on social media. That was Kyrie can do Everything better than John Stockton can do anything.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Old guy versus 20 LeBron stands. No, that was skip versus 20 LeBron stands. Now there's an old guy versus a bunch of guys who are like, you know, Cade Cunningham is better than Magic Johnson.

[Sean Fenasee]

This is me with Val Kilmer and Austin Butler where I'm like, I really like Austin Butler and I'm happy for him, but sit down and relax. Watch Tombstone again, Austin. All right. You want to get into the temple of weird Beautiful man, you need to go through these pillars. Yeah. Thanks to Jack Sanders. We'll be back on Friday. We're going to preview the summer movie Slate. And I had David Cronenberg in studio yesterday.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

How did that feel?

[Sean Fenasee]

Well, he was just very kind and he's made some of the most fucked up movies ever and he was great.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

I have One last question for you that I forgot to ask.

[Sean Fenasee]

Okay.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Who is the director you wish Val Kilmer would have worked with? Oh, while you're thinking David Lynch.

[Sean Fenasee]

Well, you know, famously he wanted him for a part in Blue Velvet, but we don't know which part. And I don't think it was Kyle MacLachlan, because the whole thing with Blue Velvet was we did Dune together. But what was the part that Val was meant to play in that movie?

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

Right. It's kind of.

[Sean Fenasee]

I don't know.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

It's not Hopper, right?

[Sean Fenasee]

I doubt it. I doubt he was so young. But lynch, he would have been marvelous with Lynch. That's a great shout. I mean, there's the obvious, like, you know, the guys, the Coens, the Scorsese's that we love, who. I think he would have done great with the Cohens because he had.

[Jordan Ritter Khan]

That would have been a cool Cronenberg actor.

[Sean Fenasee]

He would have been a very good Cronenberg actor. Very physical performer. I don't know. I mean, he. The fact that he could work comfortably with David Mamet and Martha Coolidge in Real Genius and you know, Michael Mann, I mean, these are very different kinds of directors. And he was, he was, he was a real one. RIP To Val Kilmer, Shrouds is good. Very good, Very good. In terms of late style, there's nobody doing it like Cronenberg. He's a one of one. So I hope you'll listen to that conversation later this week. Thanks, cr. Sure.