← The Big Picture
The Big Picture
The Snubs, Surprises, and WTFs of the 2025 Golden Globe Nominations. Plus: Richard Gere!
01:33:16
Loading summary
Transcript373 lines
- [00:01]
Matt Bellamy
If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, the Town on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name is Matt Bellamy. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the what I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show the Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight, which streamer is on the brink of collapse, and which executive is on the hot seat. Disney, Netflix, who's up, down, and who will eat lunch in this town Again, follow the Town on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:40]
Sean Fenn
This episode of the Big Picture is presented by Walmart. Thoughtfulness matters during the holiday season. Walmart has a huge selection of great gifts at great prices. So you can find the perfect thing for everyone on your list, like a Samsung soundbar for action movie fans, the Lego sorting hat for those who queue up, a Harry Potter marathon every year, or the Fujifilm Instax camera for the aspiring cinematographers. Give the gifts that show you get them at Walmart. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. All right, here's the thing. I'm obsessed with holiday movies. It's not just about watching a classic for the hundredth time. It's about creating the ultimate holiday lineup. With Prime, I've got access to everything. And when friends swing by for a spontaneous holiday movie night or I'm just feeling a little peckish, extra snacks and drinks arrive at lightning speed thanks to free fast delivery. From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.comprime to get more out of whatever you're into. I'm Sean Fen and this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about the Golden Globes. My goodness, it is a beautiful Monday morning here in Juan Sotos America. Congratulations to him for signing with the New York Mets. Later in this episode, I have a conversation with Richard Gere. That's right, the Richard Gere, one of the signature movie stars and actors, frankly, of the last half century. He has a new film directed by my beloved Paul Schrader. It's a reunion of the guys from American Gigolo. It's an adaptation of the Russell Banks novel for Gone. This is a beautiful movie about a guy remembering or maybe misremembering his past as he's being portrayed in a documentary. Fascinating film. Richard Gere, what can you say? Great interview, Insightful as always. Dashing as always. Please stick around for our conversation. But first, something a little less dashing, though somewhat dashing, is the Golden Globe nominations always dashing. Joanna Robinson. Hey, Joe, how are you?
- [02:42]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, hello. How are you? I'm thrilled to listen to your Richard Gere convo. He's also currently crushing it on the Agency. Like, he's just. It's gear season and I'm thrilled.
- [02:52]
Sean Fenn
It really is. I haven't had a chance to see the Agency yet, but I look forward to it. Does the Agency get any TV nominations.
- [02:58]
Richard Gere
At the Golden Globes?
- [02:59]
Joanna Robinson
No.
- [03:00]
Sean Fenn
No. It's very sad. We will not be discussing the TV nominations at the Golden Globes because I don't watch enough television to really understand what's going on there. But we will talk about the film nominations, and there were. Gosh, there were a bundle of them. This is always a complicated conversation, Joanna. We'll talk about the perceived snubs. There's no such thing as a snub. We recognize that. But we're going to use that term anyway to discuss these things. The surprises, the wtfs, wtfs is something that I have leaned on in the past at the Golden Globes. This year, maybe fewer than ever. Maybe the Golden Globes are changing a little bit. What do you think?
- [03:33]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, I mean, definitely. I think what you and I agree on, based on me perusing your notes so far, is that it's some of the same antics, silly gooseery that we've ever seen from the Globes. And then there's some. Take us serious, please. Take us seriously, please. So it's just like an interesting combination of, like, new Globes and old Globes. The old Globes are not dead yet, based on these nominations. Yeah. I love how hard it is to guess what the Globes are gonna do. That's actually, we've been talking, you know, checking in all season about how this is an unpredictable season. And it is, and that's been a really fun part of it. We don't have any of these, like, foregone conclusions necessarily. Some are shaping up right now, but the gloves are always going to be the weirdest, you know, and. And odd in a way that that, like, National Board Review, NPR isn't. Because that they seem, like, odd for odd sake in a lot of ways, or just sort of defiantly odd, whereas the Golden Globes are politically odd. And that's even more interesting, I think, to talk about.
- [04:41]
Sean Fenn
So, yeah, I agree with that. I think, obviously there are a few things that make the Golden Globes a little bit different from the Academy awards or the BAFTAs or any of the major voting bodies. One is that they delineate between drama and musical or comedy. So you've got the option to nominate significantly more people both in that category and in the acting categories, the major acting categories, where they also split. Then on top of that, you've got six nominations in these key categories and not five. So it's actually harder than ever for the Golden Globes to, quote unquote, miss an obvious nomination. And yet there are some misses here. Just to start the convo, I just want to go through the best drama and best musical or comedy, best film nominees, and then we'll get into what we think are the snubs and the surprises, and we can talk through each category where those exist. Sound good?
- [05:26]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, perfect.
- [05:27]
Sean Fenn
Okay, so for best motion picture drama, Here are your six nominees. The brutalist, a complete unknown, conclave, Dune, part two, Nickel Boys and September 5th. And in best motion picture, musical or comedy, you've got Honora challengers, Emilia Perez, A Real Pain, the Substance, and Wicked. I wouldn't say that there are any stunning omissions from those lists. What do you think?
- [05:53]
Joanna Robinson
Not stunning. I would say on a personal level, I'm sad to not see Sing Sing in here, but Sing Sing is having a good couple weeks, so I'm not despondent over it. And we'll talk about some of the sort of trends of some of the misses that the. The Globes put forth this year. But I. I love to hear you start this list with. As the chief architect of the Brutalist hive, like with hope and joy in your heart, and then end it with Wicked. How are you feeling those two poles of these nominees?
- [06:25]
Sean Fenn
I feel fine. I mean, of course Wicked was gonna perform incredibly well at this award show because it's a musical. It's got an opportunity to fill out a lot of those categories. It's got great performances, of course. So Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande are both recognized. It's notably missing in director, which is someplace where it was not missing at nbr, which Adam Naiman pointed out last week on the show. It won John M. Chu the award for best director. That's not the case here. I think it could be a favorite to win in this category at musical or comedy.
- [06:54]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [06:54]
Sean Fenn
As far as the Brutalist goes, the Brutalist has had kind of an up and down precursor season, especially in the last couple of weeks, where it missed in some kind of big and obvious places. And Adrien Brody has missed in a couple of big and obvious places as well. And that's not the case here. The brutalist has seven nominations, which is the second most to Emilia Perez's 10 nominations, which is something I wanted to ask you about too. So 10 nominations for Emilia Perez, a movie that I think I'm, I'm, I'm pretty mixed on, pretty mixed to down on. Although I think it does have some really cool performances and has been critically kind of pilloried for the last two months since it hit Netflix, but still was incredibly strong at the European Film Awards, has been incredibly strong at a series of overseas awards bodies. And now the Globes, which is an international group, there's over 300 international journalists, critics that vote on this sort of thing, have really rubber stamped it as a true blue contender. Would you agree with that?
- [07:50]
Joanna Robinson
Well, I don't know. I don't know that I agree. I think, you know, we have a lot of data coming out of the Gothams, New York film critics, the LA film critics, nbr. These are all sort of data points to put in the mix and to think about what they have been precursors of. I think we really have to more than ever before with the Globes, understand them as a international voting body and that that has always purportedly been what they were, but they weren't before because before you had to be based in la, even if you weren't, you know, originating from the States. And that is no longer the case. They've made all these efforts to really sort of broaden their membership and it's still, you know, a smallish voting body, but broaden their membership, make it significantly international. So there are some data points in the voting here that just really lead us towards, you have to think about the way in which these things played abroad and that comes through with like stuff like the Apprentice and some other things that feel like Persona non grata in the American States, but doing well internationally. And so for both the European Film Awards and the Golden Globes to anoint Emilia Perez does not mean to me that it's automatically going to bloom and flourish at the Oscars. But I don't, you know, it is always also like the thing that the Globes can do and the things, the thing that happens if you miss a Globe nomination is keep your film, your actor in the conversation. And so it is helpful for Emilia Perez to have this stat and is helpful for us to be talking about it significantly this morning and that there are some, you know, we'll talk about some actors who aren't here when it. And the fact that they aren't here probably means their campaign's kind of over based on, you know, some of the precursors and stuff like that. So I don't know that I'm ready to rubber stamp it as a major contender, but I do think we will see it for sure at the Oscars.
- [09:41]
Sean Fenn
Yeah, I think you're ultimately right. I think that there's no doubt that this is a day where some campaigns die. I don't know if it's a day where some campaigns really rise in stature. Yeah, it's. It's a little bit of a tricky thing. I think the Globes, to your point about international, there are a number of other films here that have been recognized that suggest that's the case. One, the substance did very, very well here. And we put the substance at number 10 last time we power ranked best picture films, which we'll do again next week after this information. Yeah, I. I'm not sure. I still believe that is getting in at number 10 relative to the praise for a complete unknown of late. That being said, this doesn't hurt. This doesn't hurt at all to get two acting nominations, to get Coralie Farshaw in best director, and to get best comedy or musical nomination. I mean, that's a huge haul for a strange French body horror movie. What do you think?
- [10:33]
Joanna Robinson
I mean, completely. I mean, and I hope Katie Rich is feeling pleased this morning because that was her insistence that we put it in. I think that it's the best news for Demi. Right. And I think there were a lot of. A lot of the school of thought leading up to this was that it would be Demi alone representing this movie through various things is the fact that she is surrounded by that Margaret Qualley is also here. That there is a larger sense of support. Just the way in which you see films absent from certain categories makes you worried about its legs. The substance grows. Stability here. But I think it's the best news ultimately for Demi and her possibility of sliding into a pretty competitive Best Actress race. There isn't a lot of room in there. And there's like in a lot of these acting categories, it seems like there are. You like to say there's no such thing as a lock. I would say that there are like four very strong contenders in a lot of these categories and then a mystery slot for a lot of them. And Demi is definitely flirting with that fifth slot. So that's exciting.
- [11:34]
Sean Fenn
Let's break down the actor and actress races a little bit because there's something interesting that has that the Golden Globes underlines. I think in the actor race in particular, I think you find a heavy concentration of probable nominees in the drama category, whereas now I think it is potentially shifting towards a concentration of nominees in the actress category in musical or comedy. So this is kind of unusual for that category for that to be the case. But so for actor, you've got Adrien Brody and the Brutalist in drama, Timothee Chalamet for Complete Unknown, Daniel Craig for Queer, Colman Domingo for Sing Sing, Ralph Fiennes for Conclave and surprise. But I think a good surprise, Sebastian Stan, the first of his two nominations for the Apprentice, a film that, as you pointed out, probably going to do better with non American voters for a variety of reasons. And I would say four and possibly even five of the future nominees are sitting right in that category. My, my gut tells me Daniel Craig is in right now, him being the potential fifth. What do you think?
- [12:38]
Joanna Robinson
It's really interesting because nobody really likes that movie, but I can't disagree. I mean, Brody, Timmy Colman, Domingo, Ralph Fiennes, those four seem very.
- [12:51]
Sean Fenn
They seem pretty locked in.
- [12:52]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, yeah. And so the fifth is a question mark. And Daniel Craig could certainly get in and certainly I think it would feel more like an anointing of his body of work than anything else because really, people genuinely don't seem to enjoy queer that much or at least divisive. But Sebastian Stan, I mean, the problem for Sebastian Stan, and this is a embarrassment of riches, is the split attention of the campaign if you can focus around a different man. Because I really don't think the Apprentice is going to go just nobody wants to touch it here in the United States. And that is evidenced by the fact that Sebastian Stan was cut out of the variety actors on actors campaigning opportunity because nobody wanted to talk about Trump. There's just a lot of ways in that is, you know, for better or for worse. And I actually think there are things to definitely discuss and regard in that movie. So I wouldn't want to not talk about it, but plenty of people don't want to talk about it. So if you can focus the campaign around a different man, another movie that I really, really enjoyed even more than the Apprentice, I think Sebastian has a good chance. And also one of those chances of you were in. Do you remember when Sebastian Stan was coming into the studio to talk to you and I was asking you questions about, you know, Sebastian Stan is an interviewee and whether or not he liked to do press a lot and you said, well, I think he knows he's in two really good movies this year. And that's true. And so I would love to see. I mean, this isn't just me being like, Avengers build. Like, I would love to see Sebastian Stan get nominated for his work this year.
- [14:23]
Sean Fenn
Yeah. I want us to spend a little bit of time on him, and we can talk about the musical or comedy male actor race as well, because Stan is also there. I think that it's possible, not likely, but possible, that the best thing that ever happened to Sebastian Stan's Oscar chances is him being, quote, unquote, unable. Unable to book a companion in the Actors on Actors series that Variety does, where no one was willing to sit down with him to talk about the Apprentice because they don't want to be associated with any kind of conversation about Donald Trump. Now, Sebastian Stan and I talked about Donald Trump quite a bit on this podcast. When he came on the show, he was a great guest. I think he was a great guest for a variety of reasons. I think part of it was that he knew he had given two really strong performances, was really proud of the movies. He worked for years with Alibasi to get the Apprentice off the ground. He'd been attached to that movie for a very long time. And A Different man, where he's.
- [15:12]
Joanna Robinson
Which.
- [15:12]
Sean Fenn
He's nominated for a musical or comedy, which is a very dark comedy, borderline, not a comedy. The Aaron Schimberg movie, which did just win Best Film at the Gothams a week and a half ago, and I think is getting a little bit more attention now that it's available on vod and I encourage people to watch it, is really like an exceptional example of what you can do with that Avengers coin. You know, that you can get a film like that made, that you can take on a part like that. Like, to me, that is the perfect balance of if you use the franchise stuff to raise the water of your career, float on top of it with a movie like A Different man is kind of how I feel. So I think that there's some good will towards him in that respect, too.
- [15:50]
Joanna Robinson
And I think Sebastian Stanton, that has been a focus of his because he's not like, unlike many of his counterparts, he's not even in his post Avengers era. Right. Because he's still in the mix. It Marvel thunderbolts coming. The thunderbolts. So he's still doing it. But you and I were talking about this. When we talked about the cinematic classic Red One, we were like, what has Chris Evans done with his Steve Rogers Fuel? What has Downey done? Downey won An Oscar. So he's doing fine. But to think about what do these Avengers or Marvel stars do, I think for years now, Sebastian Stan has been sort of one of the most interesting people to watch in that regard.
- [16:29]
Sean Fenn
So I fully agree. The other nominees in this category, which is a really cool category of nominees, but I don't think one that you'll see too many Oscar nominations for, but it includes Jesse Eisenberg from A Real Pain, which we recently talked about. Hugh Grant for Heretic, which I just told you in a future episode, one of my favorite performances of the year. Absolutely. Laugh out loud. Funny. Gabriel Lebel for Saturday Night, the lone nomination for Saturday Night. We'll come back to that. Jesse Plemons, your beloved. My beloved for Kinds of Kindness, a movie that 18 people have seen. But he is actually quite good in that film, the anthology movie from, from Yorgos Lanthimos and Glenn Powell for Hitman, which was long predicted. But congratulations to the homie Glenn Powell for his Golden Globe nomination.
- [17:07]
Joanna Robinson
This is a tremendous Globes. This is the best of what the Globes could be because there are, I don't think there's anyone here where you're saying, oh, clearly this is just here so they can get, I don't know, Hugh Grant to make funny faces at the camera at the awards ceremony. I would argue there's some of that in some of these other categories, but this is great. Hugh Grant should be honored for what he did in Heretic in that future episode that you just alluded to. I was highlighting Gabriel LaBelle as someone that I didn't really enjoy Saturday Night that much, but I thought he was wonderful in it and I think his performance should be honored. Jesse Plums is the real surprise for me. He wasn't, I was scouring, you know, the predictions list, predicting the Golden Globes, as we mentioned. It's a very, very tricky thing to do. Some people got it pretty close, including the double Sebastian Stan nomination, which I was like, I guess emotionally and mentally prepared for. But no one really had Plemons on the list. And he's of course an award season kind of guy these days. But Kinds of Kindness doesn't feel like it exists as a film.
- [18:06]
Sean Fenn
So I saw a couple of people had it. I want to say some folks at next Best Picture had it like a couple of spots had it. As I was perusing the list last night, the thing that happened is in the old days, Ryan Reynolds simply would have been nominated for Deadpool vs. Wolverine or Deadpool and Wolverine, I should say.
- [18:24]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [18:25]
Sean Fenn
And many Thought he would be nominated today. So you could make the case that the biggest snub of this Golden Globes race is poor Ryan Reynolds, the most successful and richest smart machine in Hollywood, and he didn't get in. And so because he didn't get in, someone like Jesse plemons or Gabriel LaBelle or Sebastian Stan, for a different man, is able to get in a movie like a different man. Getting in over a movie, like a big Marvel movie that has a lot of good jokes in it is a. Is a change for the Globes. It doesn't mean the Globes is fully good, but it is a new Globes.
- [18:55]
Joanna Robinson
I think we'll just say this is new Globes, and then we'll talk about what. What feels like old Globes. Can you remind me why you don't feel like snubs? Like, why the concept of snubs doesn't exist for you?
- [19:05]
Sean Fenn
Well, snub implies intention. You know, snub is like a very purposeful choice, and so it indicates that it's against someone rather than for someone else. And so I don't think people vote, especially in these circumstances, like, against people as often. This isn't like, these aren't, like, political elections. I think that's actually more likely to have a snub loser in the Academy Awards when you're making the winner choice because you've got a list of people already that you're like, I don't want that person. So at nominations time, it's kind of a complicated terminology, but it doesn't really. It serves an elegant purpose for podcasting.
- [19:42]
Joanna Robinson
No, no, no. I think. I think that's a good point. And I do think that sometimes there are active snubs. But I think you're right that it's useful to, like, sort of delineate between the two. As someone who votes in the Critics Choice Awards, I find the act of filling out my ballot to, like. It feels like the nominations ballot feels like you're in the middle of an ocean somewhere, and you just don't. You can't even see shore. You don't even know, like, what you're doing. And you're just like, I know I'm going to miss someone. Like, I'm. I'm trying. And. And then, yeah, the act of voting is so easy because you're sort of like, oh, clearly, it's. It's this one.
- [20:15]
Sean Fenn
You know what I've tried to do? I vote in the Producers Guild Awards, and when I vote there, I basically just try to vote for my 10 favorite movies of the year for that, for the feature category, and just say, like, look, this is what I say publicly is my favorite thing. There's no reason for me to go against this. I'm just going to stick to it. It is one of the reasons why I try to get, like, to 350 movies a year, though, because I'm like, I really want to feel like I've seen, like, I saw Flow over the Weekend, the Latvian animated film, which I absolutely loved and hadn't seen in time for my end of the year episode. And it's so good. I don't. It's probably right outside of my top 10, but it's so good. And it's useful to have the totality of understanding when you're doing this stuff because it can be daunting. You know, like, we make fun of the people who vote on this stuff, but you really want to feel like you've given it a solid and sincere effort every time you put names down.
- [21:01]
Joanna Robinson
I think that in the last couple years, I think this is true of the PGA as well. They've started, you know, instead of us getting physical screeners, which I would, like, literally physically sort around the house into, like, piles of priority and all this sort of stuff like that. And it's so onerous to. It's like environmentally unfriendly, onerous to your mail carrier, all this sort of stuff like that. So they've eventually. And, like, I think this year fully moved on to, like, a digital screening platform. And it's so helpful to me to just like, open the platform and just say, like, all right, I haven't seen this one yet. What do I need to, like, take off the list? And I think I'm done, which is exciting. I mean, actually, I know I'm done because my ballot's due tomorrow. So it's like, if I'm not done, then, you know, here we go.
- [21:45]
Sean Fenn
There's only one film that was nominated today for that I haven't seen yet, and we can get to that when we get to the international race because it is still filling in some gaps. Let us just talk quickly about actresses in the drama and musical or comedy categories. So best Female actor in a Motion picture drama is Pamela Anderson for the Last Showgirl, Angelina Jolie for Maria Nicole Kidman for Baby Girl, Tilda Swinton for the Room Next Door. The lone nomination for the Room Next Door, I believe Fernanda Torres for I'm Still Here, the Brazilian film, Kate Winslet for Lee, and then for musical or comedy, Amy Adams. For Night Bitch, a film that we spoke about at length on a future episode of this show. Cynthia Erivo for Wicked, Carla, Sofia Gascon for Emilia Perez, Mikey Madison for Honora, Demi Moore for the Substance, and Zendaya for Challengers. So much like the act, the male acting categories, it's possible that Cynthia Erivo, Carlos, Sofia Gascon, Mikey Madison, and maybe even Demi Moore all get in at best Actress. Now, there's clearly some bloodsport going on in drama here where you've got Angelina Jolie and Nicole Kidman, who there's a lot of passion for in both directions. I wouldn't rule out Fernanda Torres or Kate Winslet here either. So this category feels like a bit of a knife fight at the moment. What do you think?
- [23:00]
Joanna Robinson
I feel like Angelia Jolie and Pamela Anderson and Nicole Kidman to a certain degree because Baby Girl is a film I really loved. But, like, a lot of this feels like Old Globes to me. Angela Jolie, I think is most famously associated with the most ridiculous Old Globes move, which is nominating her for the Tourist. Right. So, like the Tourist is just infamous. So a lot of people felt like Angie was going to be in here sort of no matter what. Pamela Anderson, being in here is also a very old Globesy kind of pick. Fernanda Torres, I'm still here. Phenomenal film. Fernando Torres, wonderful in it. And this is a real New Globes critics friendly pick. Not just an international friendly pick, but a critics, like the critics really seem to want Fernando Torres in the conversation and I wouldn't disagree with them. And then Kate Winslet, as you and I have been like talking to Kitty Rich a little bit, you know, off pod. This is a. This is a campaign boondoggle that has been happening this season. Do you want to talk about that at all?
- [24:04]
Sean Fenn
Yeah. I mean, Lee is a film that premiered at the 2023 Toronto International Film Festival. It was acquired out of that festival by a much smaller distributor. Kate Winslet is beloved. It's directed by. Is it Ellen Curris as the filmmaker?
- [24:17]
Joanna Robinson
I think so.
- [24:18]
Sean Fenn
Longtime cinematographer and it's her feature directorial debut. Kate Winslet gives kind of a classical Academy bait performance as a wartime photographer.
- [24:34]
Joanna Robinson
Unglamorous sort of thing. Yeah.
- [24:36]
Sean Fenn
And it's a great cast. Notably, Andrea Riseborough is in this film. It does feel like this campaign has a little bit of that energy to it.
- [24:45]
Joanna Robinson
I think it has a lot of Andrea Riseborough and to Leslie, energy is what most people have been comparing what Kate Winslet and the supporters of Kate Winslet in this film. Some of the same people are involved in this as we're involved in the Andrea Riseborough push, though, if she were to get an Oscar nomination, unlike Andrea Riseborough, she would have this. She. They would be like, she. She was nominated for the Globes. So it's not as out of nowhere the way that Andrea Riseborough being nominated for two Leslie felt in that year and Caitlin. I mean, obviously, like Anna Riseborough also was like an actress so talented, such a chameleon that people don't, like, really remember that they've seen her in a million things already, whereas Kate Winslet is, you know, a minted bonafide movie star. So there's like slightly different circumstances here. I wouldn't begrudge her a nomination. It just feels like more political than anything else or more attention economy than anything else. Fernanda Torres would thrill me. And then Tilda Swinton being here, the Room Next Door. If Tilda had not been nominated, I would say the Room Next Door is out of. You know, it had really tough run the last couple weeks in the Precursors. It just felt like it was not getting any of the attention that you would hope for. This cast, this director, all of that sort of stuff. But Tilda being here means that there's still some life in the old girl.
- [26:08]
Sean Fenn
It's just the flicker, honestly. You know, in a movie that I really wanted to love but didn't really click with that. This is Alma Dovar's new movie that is coming out later this year. You know, there's another name that isn't on this list of 12 that is considered one of the major snubs of the morning, which is Marianne Jean Baptiste for Hard Truths. And she's won some Precursors. There's a strong sense that she could potentially even win bafta. And it is one of the best performances of the year. I've talked about it a couple times. I saw it out at the New York Film Festival. Mike Lee has been able to deliver acting nominations for actors in the past not recognized here in favor of, you know, some other complex, you know, Pamela Anderson over Marianne John Baptiste is one of those things where it's like, the Pamela Anderson story is a great story. The Last Showgirl is really a film which has two nominations here that is really a cut below the new critically acclaimed Globes. And there's something kind of funky about this. And I'm not really sure, you know, there's. There's four significant black actors who were not recognized today. That is to be a takeaway. This is a Common takeaway for decades, frankly with awards bodies. But there are some standouts. Marian Jean Baptiste is one of them that we should talk through a little bit. In addition to them, there's also Angenellis Taylor for Nickel Boys. There's Clarence Macklin for Sing Sing, which is a huge performance for me, something that I talked about a lot when Amanda and I talked about the movie and I talked about it in a future episode. And then Danielle Deadweiler for the Piano Lesson, which I also loved and loves her in it. So none of them are here and I think they're all pretty significant, quote unquote snubs. Clarence Macklin and Daniel Deadweiler in particular I feel like should have a real chance at the Oscars.
- [27:47]
Joanna Robinson
Absolutely. Like Danielle Deadweiler has been all over the place as some as people like just. And she's wonderful in everything she does. But like she seems like. And like unlike in previous, a previous year when Danielle dewiller has been someone overlooked, she is really campaigning this year. So she's really going for it. That's great. Clarence Macklin. You know, Colman Domingo's in here and that makes me thrilled. But like it's bizarre to have Coleman Domingo without Clarence Macklin, especially given the narrative the last couple weeks, you know, both Colman Domingo and Clarence Macklin winning in New York. Like and you know, my former colleague at Vanny Fair, Richard Lawson was in the room at the Gothams and he was talking about we love to hear insight from the room and like sort of who are the people that are like a hit with the crowd. And it was Colman Domingo and Clarence Macklin winning at the Gothams was the most rousing reaction for the crowd. And so I know that you and I had talked a couple weeks ago about this idea of like the goodwill, the good time goodwill. You just want these people, you just want to talk to these people. You want to be around these people. This is true of like the parasite cast of the Coda folks of everywhere where all this one folks like all of that. And I think I was going to say that Wicked had that but I think it's Sing Sing that has it like that this cast or these particular artists are who people want to talk to. And so Clarence Macklin not being here, especially as representative of the non professional actors in this film is a huge miss for the Caves.
- [29:23]
Sean Fenn
The last showgirl having more nominations than Sing Sing is not ideal but I do think, I think it's fine. I don't think it's meaningfully affected. I mean Sing Sing in some respects is a very American story. And its lack of glamour around the series of either non professional or non feature film. Traditional actors might be working against it in the eyes of the Globes. I don't know. It's hard though, because on the other hand, they're nominating folks like Fernando Torres who have very minimal visibility worldwide. The Brazilian journalists and critics have been extremely passionate about the Walter Salas movie I'm Still Here. And so they've been. That's. But there's been a really forceful campaign for that movie. But there's just a sense of imbalance. There's also something really interesting related in Director, which I don't know if I see this as the biggest surprise, but it is one that could have a meaningful ripple effect. The director's branch of the Academy is very high minded, very auteur driven.
- [30:25]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. They look to have at least one European or non American director in there, if not a couple.
- [30:32]
Sean Fenn
Yes. And so I think there had been a lot of speculation and I think there is still speculation that Ramel Ross, the nickel boys director, will fill one of those slots as not a European filmmaker, but someone who's made something more, a little bit more conventionally challenging. Ramel not nominated here. In addition to that, again, one of the biggest snubs quote unquote of the day is Denis Villeneuve not being nominated for Dune Part 2. Dune Part 2 only got two nominations here today, which is very sad. Probably more sad for the fanboys. But that.
- [31:03]
Joanna Robinson
That's us, right? Aren't we the Dune fanboys?
- [31:06]
Sean Fenn
I mean, I love Dune. I'm not. I'm not stumping for Dune to win Best Picture, though. You know what I mean?
- [31:11]
Joanna Robinson
I know you're not.
- [31:12]
Sean Fenn
I feel the same way about it that I feel about a lot of these kind of like unfinished stories where I'm like, it's a great science fiction movie. It basically never had a chance to win. From the beginning of the year.
- [31:21]
Joanna Robinson
From the beginning of the year you've been saying that. And I was hopeful that you were wrong. But this is one of the cases where you were right. And that couldn't be clearer in the way that Dune Part 2 is like, @ the Globes of all places, Dune Part two should have performed much better than it did today. So that's really tough. I still think it could be in the 10 nominations for best Picture, definitely in a lot of the below the line stuff. But I think you're right that the fact that this is a part two of a planned trilogy means we'll have to wait and see. And at the end of the day, I'm not optimistic about that because Dune Part 3 is going to be probably quite challenging.
- [32:01]
Sean Fenn
So we'll see the filmmakers who did get in, in Denise Stead, in Rommel Ross's Stead, in John M. Chu's stead, our Pyle Kapadia, the filmmaker behind All We Imagine as Light, which is a film that somewhat controversially, was not selected by India to be the representative for international feature for the Academy Awards, but has been one of the most acclaimed movies of the year. I know Bobby Wagner, our producer, it's one of his favorite films of the year and she's been nominated here, which is a cool pick. And her nomination, as well as the nomination of Coralie Farge for the substance, does something very interesting, which is that a month ago I started thinking hard about Best Director and I was like, oh, the boys club is back. This is really.
- [32:42]
Joanna Robinson
This is very.
- [32:43]
Sean Fenn
This is a male crew here with, you know, Brady Courbet and. And Ramel and Sean Baker and Jacques Odiard and all the people who are contending for this award. This could upend that. I don't know. What do you make of Pyle Capadia and Corley Farsha getting in here happy?
- [33:02]
Joanna Robinson
I mean, like one. Once again, this is maybe the benefit. Should every category be six nominees or 10? You know what I mean?
- [33:09]
Sean Fenn
Why not? 15?
- [33:10]
Joanna Robinson
Why not? But yeah, yeah, this is the benefit of having six places here. Romel Ross is really surprising to me because I think if you. If you look at the precursors of the last couple of weeks, Nickel Boys is one of the biggest sort of momentum builders around cinematography, around direction. You know, it's less of a getting acknowledged for its performances film and more for the technical challenges for the ambition of it. And so Rommel Ross missing here is very. Was very surprising to me, though I shouldn't be surprised. It feels very old globes for them to miss on that front. That being said, I mean, Coralie Farget and Pilo Capaldi and especially Kapadia as a narrative nominee. You just mentioned this idea. It's not just that the film wasn't picked to represent India, it's that Kapadia as a filmmaker has been unfriendly to the Indian government. And so it's just sort of this, you know, but this was, you know, honored, has been honored in Europe, but the reasons it wasn't picked by India feel unclean. And so this then becomes an underdog, right? Like so.
- [34:26]
Sean Fenn
Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, There is a campaign for this movie, for the Oscars, for screenplay, for director, for.
- [34:32]
Joanna Robinson
Right. Cause it can't get in international features.
- [34:35]
Sean Fenn
Yeah, exactly. And there had been some expectation that Emilia Perez was going to steamroll its way to international feature. I'm not so sure that's true anymore. When you see it.
- [34:43]
Joanna Robinson
I don't think that's true at all.
- [34:44]
Sean Fenn
You see a movie like I'm still here, doing really well here today. There's a lot of opportunity here. So actually, let's talk about international feature very, very quickly. So here are the nominees. All we imagine is Light Capadia's film. Emilia Perez, the Girl with the Needle. I'm Still Here. The Seed of the Sacred Fig and Vermiglio, which is the movie that I have not yet seen. The Seed of the Sacred Fig is doing very well.
- [35:08]
Joanna Robinson
It really is.
- [35:09]
Sean Fenn
In a lot of different places. Not really. Okay.
- [35:13]
Joanna Robinson
It's divisive. It really is. Some people think it's a masterpiece and some people are not feeling it at all whatsoever. But it is definitely the international feature of the last few weeks that has been building up ahead of Steam.
- [35:25]
Sean Fenn
Yeah. Mohammad Rasulov, the director won best director at the Los Angeles Film Critics Awards over the weekend. And you know that the critics bodies proceed with caution when trying to make your Oscar predictions against those things. But that's a big boost. That's a big boost of visibility. And See the Sacred Fig, you know, I thought narratively just had a lot of problems pacing wise. I feel similarly about a few of the international films. You know, all we imagine is lands in the movie. That didn't work as well for me also. And I found there's a kind of like there was a. I don't know what the right word I'm trying to think of is. There's just a pacing issue on some of these movies that didn't click for me. And I like Evil Does Not Exist is the movie for me that I would love to see in these spaces. And in this discussion just seems like they were like, oh, we. We acknowledged Tamaguchi on Drive My Car. We're good here. We don't need to get into that. Into that film anymore. But I still haven't seen every film in this category yet. So it's a little bit hard to say. The 10 win, the 10 nominations for Emilia Perez makes me think that this film is sitting pretty in that race in this award show. What do you think?
- [36:31]
Joanna Robinson
I loved Evil Does Not Exist. I thought that was an incredible film with a. Really leaves you unsettled. In a really nourishing way. If I were to pick one, an international feature that I would most want to win with my heart, I would say I'm still here. I really, really, really loved that film. Amelia Perez is so interesting because if you had asked me before the Globes nominations came out, based on what has been happening around, I would say it's not going to win international feature. But perhaps now, I don't know. I have some questions, but I'm still here is one that I really hope people get a chance to see, because. Phenomenal film, really.
- [37:15]
Sean Fenn
Where should we go next? Should we go to. We've hit Sebastian Stan.
- [37:20]
Joanna Robinson
Supporting.
- [37:21]
Sean Fenn
Supporting. Okay, let's talk about the supporting actors races. Now. There's only 12 here. Six for the women and six for the men. For the women, the nominees are Selena Gomez for Amelia Perez. Ariana Grande for Wicked. Felicity Jones for the Brutalist. Margaret Qualley for the Substance. Isabella Rossellini for Conclave. And Zoe Saldana for Emilia Perez. As I mentioned, Danielle Deadweiler. Not here. Ingenue Ellis Taylor. Not here. Who else is not here? Anybody else that I'm forgetting?
- [37:50]
Joanna Robinson
Those are the main ones that feel overlooked to me. And in their place, we have Margaret Qualley and Selena Gomez.
- [38:02]
Sean Fenn
Selena Gomez. Joanna. Selena Gomez.
- [38:06]
Joanna Robinson
I just really did not like her performance in this movie at all. It's not good. Zoe Saldana, great. I mean, she's great.
- [38:12]
Sean Fenn
I loved her.
- [38:13]
Joanna Robinson
She's great. She should be in there. She might even win it. I wouldn't be mad about it. And then Isabella Rossellini, who has a minuscule amount of screen time in conclave, but is. You know how they, like, say she's running. She's running. Isabel Rossellini is running. And she's running on the. On the energy of. I heard someone compare it to, like, the Jamie Lee Curtis sort of like, legacy Nepo baby sort of thing. It's like Isabella Rossellini is film history the way that Margaret Qualley is to a certain degree. So it's just like, it seems silly at this point to call Isabella Rossellini a nepo baby. That's not really how I think about her at all. But when you think about Isabella Rossellini, you think about cinema. Old Hollywood legacy history. So, yeah, and then she's just, like, yucking it up on Fallon as well. You know what I mean? Like, she's just. She's just making the whole entire circuit. So, yeah, yeah.
- [39:04]
Sean Fenn
The thing is, she's not a nepo baby. She's an incredible ambassador for Movie history. Her mom is Ingrid Bergman, her dad is Roberto Rossellini. She's appeared in great films by David Lynch. She was married to Martin Scorsese, like she is.
- [39:16]
Joanna Robinson
I meant in the same way that people were calling. Even though she is not Jamie Lee Curtis, a Nepo baby. And as like the Globes, especially like the Globes, in the way that they have in their history centered the children of famous people as part of their ceremony.
- [39:32]
Sean Fenn
You know, that's a great point.
- [39:33]
Joanna Robinson
So, no, I would never call Isabella Rossellini. She's a legend. Have you how familiar in love with her sort of like sex series that she did for. What was it like? Independent. The Independent Channel.
- [39:46]
Sean Fenn
I think you can find it on the Criterion Channel right now, actually.
- [39:49]
Joanna Robinson
I mean, she's. That's cinema.
- [39:51]
Sean Fenn
I think that's the thing is she's kind of a fun hang. And so if you're a fun hang at all these events, you know, she's got a lot of opinions. I stayed in, I want to say it was Brookhaven on Long island in an Airbnb a couple of years ago and was driving around and I learned that Isabella Rossellini has lived there for like, decades and is sort of like the matriarch of the town, which I didn't realize. And she's like, you know, gets here at the farmer's market every weekend and just a very chill lady who's been hanging out in my home island for some time. I'm a big fan of hers. I hope she does well. She's in seven minutes of conclave.
- [40:25]
Richard Gere
Yeah.
- [40:25]
Sean Fenn
Saoirse Ronan, for example, is in quite a bit of blitz and she was snubbed in that category. She was also snubbed for the outrun in actress. No. Saoirse Ronan. Is Saoirse Ronan's awards trail dead?
- [40:36]
Joanna Robinson
Dead?
- [40:36]
Sean Fenn
Yes, it's dead.
- [40:38]
Joanna Robinson
It's dead. It's dead. I don't think of the blitz. I mean, Blitz is a bit of a. Of a snub, I suppose, But Outrun is the one where, like, I think people are really optimistic about that. But the fact that she's not here at all is a tough one for her.
- [40:53]
Sean Fenn
Not a great sign.
- [40:54]
Joanna Robinson
Especially Isabella Rosslini and Conclave. And again, you don't care about category fraud and supporting. I kind of do. So I applaud a true, true, true supporting. And she's barely. Not only is she barely in the movie, but for a lot of that movie, she's just sort of glowering and glaring rather than actually talking. But she's There, you know, and that matters. Tutci didn't get nominated, but Isabella Rossellini did. So here we are.
- [41:23]
Sean Fenn
Let's talk about supporting actor. Here are the nominees. Yura Borisov for Honora. I know one you're very excited about. Kieran Culkin for A Real Pain. Speaking of category, fraud, Edward Norton for a Complete Unknown Guy. Pierce for the Brutalist, My guy, Jeremy Strong, the Apprentice, and Denzel Washington for Gladiator 2. Mixed bag here. Fun category. A lot of guys having a grand old time. A lot of guys doing accents and voices and, you know, mingling around, chewing up scenery.
- [41:52]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, ever. Norton sure is playing that banjo in a Complete Unknown.
- [41:58]
Sean Fenn
Did you. Okay, I'm working on my Edward Norton as Pete Seeger voice, and I think I'm going to break it out when I do the Complete Unknown episode.
- [42:06]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, I can't wait.
- [42:07]
Sean Fenn
But I got to rewatch the trailer a few more times because I can't wait for. His voice he's doing is. Is kind of adorable, honestly.
- [42:13]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, it's. Oh, it's very cute in Ashok's sort of way. A very like an Edward Norton demeanor sort of thing. But, like, have you heard, as I did, Jayes Mangold, compare A Complete Unknown to Amadeus?
- [42:31]
Sean Fenn
I haven't. I think you can make a comparison in that movie. I don't know how. What? Light it.
- [42:38]
Joanna Robinson
Norton is allegedly Art Salieri, and that is just. I want everyone to just think about that when they watch that movie. A movie I really liked. Yeah, I liked it.
- [42:48]
Sean Fenn
I mean, God, it's a little hard to not spoil things, but I think that there's, like, a bit of an overemphasis on the perception of, like, why not me around Bob Dylan? Which I think is wrong. I think is, like, slightly mischaracter. It's one of the only things where I was like, this doesn't feel right to me. But I'll save that for I haven't read.
- [43:09]
Joanna Robinson
I have. Okay, I'm going to stop. Stop trying to podcast about a Complete unknown with you, but I want to ask really quickly, have you read the book?
- [43:15]
Sean Fenn
The Elijah Walt book? Yeah.
- [43:16]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, yeah. And do you think that's part of the book as well, or do you think that's like, a film?
- [43:21]
Sean Fenn
It is. But the thing is that, like, the movie has clearly been that Jay Cox wrote the script.
- [43:26]
Joanna Robinson
Right.
- [43:26]
Sean Fenn
And then James Mangold rewrote the script.
- [43:28]
Joanna Robinson
Rewrote it.
- [43:29]
Sean Fenn
And in rewriting the script, I think clearly put in a lot more of the Suzy Rotolo stand in that Elle Fanning plays and emphasize Joan B. Bias a little bit more in the kind of tempestuous nature of their relationship. And so in doing so, you, I think, kind of mangle a little bit of the, like, Alan Lomax and Pete Seeger versus the Electric Guys, you know, like. Anyway, I'll get to it when I talk about it next week.
- [43:56]
Joanna Robinson
Here's what I know that podcast is that episode of the Big Pig is going to be a must. Listen. They all are, obviously. But it's nice of you to say.
- [44:04]
Sean Fenn
I won't. I probably won't be having a meltdown is the thing. Like, I was expecting a full blown, like, maybe we have to wrap this show up because I can't hold it together kind of situation.
- [44:11]
Richard Gere
And it's.
- [44:12]
Sean Fenn
It's. Like you said, it's. It's pretty good.
- [44:14]
Joanna Robinson
I liked it. I liked it a lot. I love that Timmy's in here for it. My guy Yarborough's off for an aura. This feels like. I feel like he's going to get nominated.
- [44:24]
Sean Fenn
It feels like it for an Oscar. It does. Especially Tucci going out here, I think is somebody who. That is his spot. And I don't know. It's interesting. I think Tucci's fine. I've been saying for a few weeks now that I think Tucci was missing one more kind of whiz bang scene where he raises his voice a little bit.
- [44:39]
Joanna Robinson
Unreal.
- [44:39]
Sean Fenn
But tell me about Conclave. Like, where do you think Conclave sits now? Because Edward Berger got recognized for best Director here you've got. I think we have vocal Bertelsman got the Scott the Score nomination. It's obviously in best Drama right now. Conclave is the movie that everyone thinks is kind of like sitting in fourth place but could win. What do you think?
- [44:57]
Joanna Robinson
I don't think it can win. I think Rafe's gonna get nominated. I think it's definitely nominated for best picture. I think it's Best Hope is screenplay, and I'm not even sure that that's gonna happen, but I think you could see it. Yeah, but I think you could see it at winning, like, the SAG Ensemble Award. You know what I mean? Like, I can see it popping up around, but I don't think it's as hot in Best Picture as some people are rating it. I loved that movie. I really liked it. I don't actually wouldn't say I really, really liked it, but I don't know anyone who, like, loved it. Do you think is the thinking that enough people really, really liked it, that in sort of a ranked ballad, it would emerge.
- [45:42]
Sean Fenn
I do. Yeah. I think Emilia Perez is divisive. I think Wicked is divisive. I think the Brutalist is divisive. I think Conclave is not really that divisive. Everybody's just like, this movie's good.
- [45:53]
Joanna Robinson
Yes. Meatball down the middle. Conclave. But I feel like Honora has that sort of everybody likes it spot locked.
- [46:00]
Sean Fenn
I agree. I've kind of been holding my water on that because I feel like that can be the last part of this discussion. But the Conclave screenplay nomination here is interesting because that's the only real adaptation. Everything else here is an original. And so when you only have one screenplay category, as the Globes do, and six nominees to put Conclave there is notable. I'll say. And so I think you're right that Peter Strachan's adaptation of the novel could do very well at the Academy Awards.
- [46:27]
Joanna Robinson
I think it's also just, you know, I heard a lot of people in watching it and talking to people who had seen it, who work in the industry, sort of like Sorkin's name keeps coming up as, like, people thinking of it as like, Sorkin esque in a way, and they mean it as a compliment and sort of like. So when you think of like, sort of a dialogue rich, Some people think that screenplay means, as is the case with editing, as is the case with sound, the most. The most talking, the most sound, the most, you know, editing. And so I can really see Conclave getting. Getting that award.
- [47:02]
Sean Fenn
Okay, let's talk about box office in relationship to this show.
- [47:06]
Joanna Robinson
Wait, isn't. Isn't Emilia Perez in adapted because it's based on.
- [47:10]
Sean Fenn
Technically, yes, yes. You know, it is based on an opera that wrote. That is based on another opera. But it is more original, I would say, than Conclave. Okay, so two things. One, in terms of box office, you've got.
- [47:29]
Joanna Robinson
Wait, can I just say. Can I just say one last thing about your guy, Guy Pearce.
- [47:33]
Sean Fenn
Yes.
- [47:34]
Joanna Robinson
Please do not rob me of an opportunity to talk to you about the brilliance.
- [47:36]
Sean Fenn
Please speak about him. I'm 100% rooting for him, even though I don't think he has a chance to win this category.
- [47:42]
Joanna Robinson
I know, and I've been really happy for you. In terms of the brutalist rise, the brutalist has emerged as this sort of like, if you care about cinema, it will be the brutalist boys.
- [47:52]
Sean Fenn
Are you saying that's my fault.
- [47:55]
Joanna Robinson
Not false? You're a thought leader, Sean.
- [47:58]
Sean Fenn
I am but a scoutmaster to the brutalist boys. You know, I am but a simple, noble man teaching lessons of great cinema.
- [48:06]
Joanna Robinson
And I love that for you. Guy Pierce, Adrian Brody and the Brutalists have been having, like, a really steady time.
- [48:12]
Sean Fenn
Yeah.
- [48:13]
Joanna Robinson
Guy Pierce has actually not been popping up the way that I think a lot of us expected him to.
- [48:17]
Sean Fenn
He hasn't really been winning critics prizes. You know, that's really where you want to see.
- [48:21]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, yeah. He really needed this. Like Kieran. It feels like a foregone conclusion that Kieran Culkin is going to win this category. And I know you and I talked about that several weeks ago, but Guy Pearce needed something like this to keep his name in the conversation. So I'm happy because I would love to see him nominated for this.
- [48:40]
Sean Fenn
I'm very curious. Cause, you know, just most people have not seen the Brutalist yet, just like they haven't seen Nickel Boys. But the Brutalist, I think, is the last big movie that is more or less unseen, that rides on its performances in a big way.
- [48:54]
Uma Thurman
Mm.
- [48:55]
Joanna Robinson
That's a good. That's a good point.
- [48:56]
Sean Fenn
And in all likelihood, all three of those actors are going to be nominated at the Academy, where it's Felicity Jones and Adrien Brody and Guy Pearce. And so, you know, could there be a late wave for some of those performers? Potentially, I'll say Felicity Jones, the first time I watched the movie, I was a little bit mixed on what she did. And then the second time, I was fully dragged over and I Jones pilled. Yeah. And I really. I love that character. And hearing, I think Brady Courbet and Mona Fastfold, like, writing that movie together, you can feel the dynamic of, like, the great man and the woman that supports him and the way that they're trying to kind of support that idea and upend that idea at the same time. So I wonder, as more people see it, if the acting will get a little bit of a boost in that category.
- [49:36]
Joanna Robinson
In those conversations I did, you know, you have to wait a bit to get to Felicity Jones in that film. And I was worried when she showed up that she was just going to be, you know, the wife character. And that's. They definitely complicated that. So I appreciate that. But, yeah, Guy Pierce being here is wonderful news. And my Guy, Yara Borisov, keep on keeping on.
- [49:59]
Sean Fenn
I'm happy for you. I'm happy for him. He's wonderful in that movie. Okay, let's talk about box office, because one thing that happened that's interesting to me is that box office doesn't maybe matter as much for these nominations. Dune, wicked, and Gladiator 2 combined only managed eight nominations. And that's fairly unusual given the context here. They have since in the last couple of years added the Box Office Achievement Award. This is, as with all box Office achievement awards, extremely stupid. But I'm going to read the nominees. The nominees are Alien, Romulus, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Deadpool and Wolverine. Gladiator 2, inside out two twisters, Wicked, the wild robot. So here's two things that happened here. Moana 2 is already the fifth highest grossing movie of the year internationally, worldwide. Not nominated. Dune Part 2 also among the top 10. Not here.
- [50:53]
Joanna Robinson
Why Dune Part 2 not being here is astonishing. I had to go look up what Alien Romulus made because that was the one in here that I was quite surprised by.
- [51:03]
Sean Fenn
It did quite well internationally.
- [51:05]
Joanna Robinson
It is the second highest grossing Alien film, so just behind Prometheus, so I can't fault it. But this is the one where when you look at people's predictions, they did have Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice on here. Like this was expected. Alien Romulus I didn't think was really high up on people's expectations, expectations for here because I think everyone assumed that Dune 2 would be in here. It's really wild that it isn't. This is such a weird category because, you know, it is of course trying to chase that sort of like popular populist, popular vote. Let's let Twitter vote on this sort of ill advised boondoggles that a lot of awards bodies have been attempting. And this is some like really satiric sort of blend of. It made a lot of money and we think it has cinematic value.
- [51:50]
Sean Fenn
Where the fuck is Venom 3, Joanna? That's what I want to know.
- [51:53]
Joanna Robinson
I don't know. Maybe they are hoping he'll dance again.
- [51:56]
Sean Fenn
It's his last dance. Are we not willing to recognize him? Return of the King style.
- [52:03]
Joanna Robinson
I know you think that movie is trash. It is, but I do appreciate the bit.
- [52:09]
Sean Fenn
Well, I mean box office achievement is such a stupid idea for a variety of reasons. But for example, one of the amazing box Office stories of 2024 is the substance. The substance making 50 some odd million dollars in America and like more than that overseas. That's just remarkable that that happened.
- [52:26]
Joanna Robinson
I think it should be less like because there is a. I forget what the number is, but there is like a benchmark of how much it has to make. But I think it should be the, you know, especially like, you know, something like the brutalist too even not. Not that I need the brutalist in every category but like again, that hasn't been released yet, so we don't know. But that's a. That's a deceptively tiny budget on that film. So I think that sort of, like, the gap between budget and box office is one I would love to see rewarded. That sounds like a fascinating thing to chase versus give Paranormal Activity a Golden Globe.
- [52:56]
Sean Fenn
Yeah, absolutely.
- [52:57]
Joanna Robinson
But Deadpool and Wolverine is. So I guess you can have Ryan Reynolds and Hugh Jackman show up and say, I'm sorry, Blake Lively, you're not getting a Globe nomination, but maybe you'll show up in your Lady Deadpool vibe, you know, Tough.
- [53:11]
Sean Fenn
It's really tough. All right, let's try to wrap this up. Give me your big winners and big losers of this morning.
- [53:19]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, so big winners. I think the biggest winner is Sebastian. Stan.
- [53:24]
Sean Fenn
I agree.
- [53:25]
Joanna Robinson
I'm going to get. I'm going to get to Seb, and I'm going to hope that. That whoever is helping him run his various campaigns, we sort of like drill down on. On what we want to focus on. Emilia Perez, challengers. We haven't talked about it a ton, but, like, Zendaya getting in here, Wonderful stuff.
- [53:43]
Sean Fenn
And four nominations. Four nominations.
- [53:46]
Joanna Robinson
I'm tempted to say Zendaya is in here in the same way that, like, Selena Amari and like, all this sort of stuff is in here. But actually she's great in that movie, so I will take it. Challengers, which has been absent from the conversation. It's just been sort of shrinking and shrinking, shrinking in people's memory. And so just this keeping alive is great news for challengers.
- [54:10]
Sean Fenn
People still really like it.
- [54:13]
Joanna Robinson
Everyone likes it.
- [54:14]
Sean Fenn
I don't know if it's because, you know, Luca has a movie that's out right now. Plus Amazon, MGM has thrown their way behind Nickel Boys. And so there's maybe not, or there's a sense that it's just a frivolous film and so it's not serious. But, like, I don't know. There's plenty of frivolity across the Best Picture race this year. So I just. I don't know. I said, I went on Katie's show like, three months ago, and I was like, I'm not writing off challengers. I think that there is a universe in which it could get in. Now. There's currently, I think the relative success of a complete unknown, plus Sing Sing surging back, makes it very hard for a movie like this to get in. But you never know. You never know.
- [54:56]
Joanna Robinson
I mean, where would you most like to see challengers win?
- [55:01]
Sean Fenn
I mean, I think it could Win in score. And that would be a very justified win. And I love the Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross score. And I think it is like. I don't want to say a step forward in movie score, but it's like, it is a way to kind of contemporaneous, contemporize what scores are, you know, and the way that written instrumental music works in mainstream moviemaking. Because, you know, you think score and you just think like Alan Silvestri, you know, you think Thomas Newman, you think even Hans Zimmer, who has some aspects of kind of pushing the ball forward instrumentally. It still is like John Williams and Max Steiner and the whole history of orchestral music, supporting film, and using club music as the score of a movie is been done before, but in this context is relatively new to me. And so I would love to see something like that happen, I think, especially.
- [55:52]
Joanna Robinson
In a sports movie like this. Like a, you know, a sexy sports movie like this. And I think that the Challenger score is so good and does exactly what I think the Saturday Night score thinks it's doing. With love and respect to Jean Baptiste. But, like, that score actually really did not work for me. It was distracting. Whereas Challenger's score, I think, is enhancing. So, yeah, Challengers, let's go. Yeah. So those are my biggest winners, I would say.
- [56:19]
Sean Fenn
And then we mentioned the Brutalist that did well today, obviously, and Nora, I think, basically held surf, you know, and that's really what it needs to do. I think it's trying to not overshoot too soon.
- [56:30]
Joanna Robinson
Right.
- [56:30]
Sean Fenn
You know, we've got two and a half full months of this left. And it's here in Best Picture, it's here in Director, it's here in Actress, it's here in Supporting Actor, it's here in Screenplay. Like, it's kind of where it needs to be.
- [56:44]
Joanna Robinson
Would you say a 24 is a big winner today?
- [56:48]
Sean Fenn
I mean, it's gotten nominations here for the Brutalist, for Sing Sing, for Queer. What am I forgetting? Heretic and Heretic, of course. Baby Girl and Baby Girl. Yeah. I mean. But, you know, newsflash, aka 24, knows how to run the awards game. You know, like, great at this.
- [57:06]
Joanna Robinson
I think the way that the Brutalists and A Nora are sort of sitting at the top, usually it's 824 against. 824 against something else. I don't know why I say 824. I just sometimes stupid, like against something else that feels bigger, glossier. But this is like the brutalist versus.
- [57:21]
Sean Fenn
Honora year I mean, imagine if Anora was an A24 movie where there's a universe in which that could have happened. You know, Shawn Baker's last movie was an A24 movie.
- [57:29]
Joanna Robinson
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [57:30]
Sean Fenn
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's. That's not the case. But regardless, like, those kinds of studios are very nimble in this environment. You know, the substance is a movie movie and movies putting all of their energy behind it because they can. They don't have another movie to put their energy behind. So I don't know. And also, frankly, those movies have a lot to gain in terms of box office and VOD purchase that some bigger movies don't. Maybe don't have as much. I don't know. We'll see. We'll have to keep a close watch on a couple of movies that, you know, Wicked is in the midst of its, you know, huge peaking moment. Or maybe it's not peaking. You know, maybe this is an extended run. It's doing incredibly well at the domestic box office, not super well overseas. And I don't know if there's any ramifications on that with the Oscar race.
- [58:17]
Joanna Robinson
I'm curious about Sing Sing because there is this. There was this question of, like, what are they doing with Sing Sing? They dropped it in August. Why would they drop it in August? And they're re releasing it on. Is it the day that the Oscar nominations are coming out?
- [58:32]
Sean Fenn
Yeah, whatever January date that is.
- [58:34]
Joanna Robinson
That's the strategy. And that's fascinating to me.
- [58:37]
Sean Fenn
I don't think it's gonna really matter with the box office. I think it's all about what you said, which is getting people either in the room with them or just getting them to show, like, fire up the Academy portal and watch it. And if they watch it, they're gonna feel just like we did, which is just like. It's just a great movie. It just makes you feel good. It's moving. The performances are spectacular. It's just a good, good film. And that goes a long way sometimes, especially in a race with such an unsettled crop.
- [58:59]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I want to shout out one last loser, if I may, Please. Which is, let's pay our respects to we live in time. If Andrew Garfield and Florence Pugh weren't going to get nominated, the Globes are not going to get nominated anywhere. And I don't think this film is going to get nominated anywhere. And it's a film I quite enjoyed.
- [59:15]
Sean Fenn
So I did as well, fairly well. I was moved. And that's the one a 24 loser. I guess in this race, you did point out that we've got Ariana versus Selena Gomez coming. You feeling excited about that?
- [59:26]
Joanna Robinson
I just. I just felt. I feel like Amanda would have said it, so I thought I should say it to honor her. And also, Miley is in the mix here with an original song.
- [59:36]
Sean Fenn
And how do we get Sabrina Carpenter in here? Can we get Olivia Rodrigo nominated somehow?
- [59:40]
Joanna Robinson
What is Taylor doing?
- [59:41]
Sean Fenn
Yeah, what is she doing?
- [59:41]
Joanna Robinson
She finished the ERA Store.
- [59:42]
Sean Fenn
Great point.
- [59:43]
Joanna Robinson
So she's got some time.
- [59:44]
Sean Fenn
You know, she was nominated last year for box office achievement for her film.
- [59:47]
Joanna Robinson
For the Eras tour.
- [59:48]
Sean Fenn
Yeah.
- [59:49]
Joanna Robinson
Which is cinema, right? That's cinema.
- [59:51]
Sean Fenn
Definitely.
- [59:52]
Joanna Robinson
Definitely.
- [59:53]
Sean Fenn
Joanna, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. We're coming back to talk about the Globes. You'll be back. You'll do some predictions with me at the beginning of January and then we'll cover the show. Who's hosting the show? I forget.
- [60:05]
Joanna Robinson
Nikki Glaser.
- [60:06]
Sean Fenn
Oh, I love Nikki Glaser. How wonderful. She's so funny. Oh, that's actually great news. I'm actually. I'm really excited to watch it. She's very, very mean in the best way possible. So I hope that plays out well. Joanna, thank you so much. I'm going to throw to Richard Gear now. Can you believe that?
- [60:20]
Joanna Robinson
Wow.
- [60:21]
Sean Fenn
Wild times. Thanks, Joanna. Let's go to my conversation now with Richard Gere.
- [60:38]
State Farm
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need. Have coverage options to protect the things you value most, File a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there.
- [61:08]
Richard Gere
The great Richard Gere is here. Ooh, look great, Richard, thank you for doing this.
- [61:12]
Uma Thurman
Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is one of my first podcasts, I think it might be.
- [61:17]
Richard Gere
Congratulations. I'm honored that this would be the one.
- [61:19]
Uma Thurman
This is number one.
- [61:20]
Richard Gere
When I saw O Canada, I was wondering, have you and Paul Schrader been in touch over the years since you worked together so many years ago?
- [61:26]
Uma Thurman
Yeah. Now we talk once in a while and he's always writing, so there's always an idea there and we run into each other. I actually, before we made this film, I ran into him. He was being feted for one of his films, which Was terrific. It was either his last film before this or the one before that. I forget. And you know, we started kind of talking again. Then this script came and I didn't know the book. And Russell Banks obviously is an author that almost everyone has read something of Russell's work and his books have made terrific films.
- [62:05]
Richard Gere
So Paul made one from one of his books.
- [62:08]
Uma Thurman
Yeah, he made a terrific one. It's one of my favorite of his. And so anyhow, Paul had written a really wonderful script for me. It was a no brainer. My dad had passed away just before he sent me the script. And he was one month shy of 101. He was living with me. But I saw this. He was quite there. He was present. But things became kind of contrapuntal. That time didn't really mean anything anymore. And they were images. He remembered things. We could have cogent emotional conversations. And he remembered where everyone was at emotionally and what their narrative was, what their story was. But his own background became present and future and past were all kind of mixed up.
- [63:04]
Richard Gere
So this seemed appealing in some way to try to work through that.
- [63:08]
Uma Thurman
Yeah, I thought this was really something for me to play with and kind of work through my own emotions of watching him pass away.
- [63:15]
Richard Gere
I'm curious, how had Paul changed as a filmmaker since you guys did American Gigolo so long ago? He's made so many films. You've made so many films.
- [63:24]
Uma Thurman
Yeah, we were trying to figure it out. I think it was 45 years ago. We worked together. I mean, Paul's got his groove now. He's got his thing. I mean the talent and the drive are still there. But I think he very much knows his niche now and he writes to what his expectation of his budget. So he knows it's a 90 page script or whatever and he knows what that's gonna cost. And he's pretty much designed and directed the movie when he writes it.
- [64:01]
Richard Gere
How do you feel in terms of working on a big production versus a more modest production like this? Do you feel more comfortable when it's a smaller crew and you know that it's a 90 page script? Or do you like to be on a big set and a big. Is there any difference for you as a performer?
- [64:13]
Uma Thurman
I like. I like the movement of indie filmmaking. The last, I have to count five, ten movies of mine have all been very small budgets with wonderful directors but challenging scripts that never would be made by a studio now ever. But I like that. I like the motion of that. I like the. You're on your feet, you're on Your toes, not back on your heels all the time.
- [64:39]
Richard Gere
Right. I was wondering if you felt like. Or if you and Paul discussed O Canada being a kind of demythologizing of the Julian character from American Gigolo or sort of like taking a Lothariotype.
- [64:53]
Sean Fenn
You didn't?
- [64:54]
Uma Thurman
No, but he said other people will be.
- [64:56]
Richard Gere
Yeah.
- [64:57]
Uma Thurman
You know, I think that's one of the things he liked about us doing this together, is that there is some kind of a connection there, some meta connection of Paul and me and the character and us both at older stages of our lives now and at that stage of telling stories of what it was like in the beginning.
- [65:18]
Richard Gere
So my reading of this movie. Tell me if you agree with this at all. And I don't know if you feel sort of incorporated into this idea, but it's like a very venerated, celebrated person who's looking back on his life and saying, like, do not celebrate me. I've done a lot of terrible things. I'm a very flawed person. I'm a very confused person at this stage because of what I'm enduring. Don't overstate what I've accomplished.
- [65:45]
Sean Fenn
And I feel like Paul has this.
- [65:46]
Richard Gere
Complicated relationship to that. To being a great, celebrated artist, but also a person who's very flawed. And I don't know how you feel about being accomplished and celebrated for those accomplishments at this stage of your life. Do you like it when you were given awards at this stage of your career and they look back and they show you your old movies, or would you rather not think about those things?
- [66:06]
Uma Thurman
I don't lean into it. But if people, you know, they want to say nice things and, you know, express kindness and love towards me, of course, why not?
- [66:16]
Richard Gere
I don't know. Some people feel discomfort with even just being forced to look back at certain things, I guess.
- [66:23]
Uma Thurman
Well, I don't take it all that seriously. But look, every time there's a film festival does something for me and they do their compilation of my career, it's always kind of amazing and weird to me and delightful at the same time of seeing my life edited through someone else's idea of my life. Yeah, because they're editing even what they choose in each of the films. What was interesting to that editor is going to be different person to person. But, you know, a lot of this stuff I forget. There are scenes that they'll pick out and put in a film that I forgot. I shot that and I forgot that moment, and I'll be flooded with memories. Paul and I talked a lot about crap's Last tape. It's a story about a guy in a room. And he's been making tapes his entire life. Kind of narrating his story. And it's someone sitting in a room. Going to the old tapes and playing them. And reacquainting himself with a version of his past. And I think what Paul and I are playing with here is. I'm not so sure the facts are really the story. And if they are the story, they're irrelevant anyhow. Because they're not an experience. Facts are not an experience. We deal in the realm of emotions and how we feel about things, how we feel about an experience. And that's what this character, Leonard Fife, is going through. He accepted the moment of telling his story with no interest. As we get right in the beginning of telling the story that he's expected to. To tell of a filmmaker. He's telling the story of a man. And he's saying things that have been difficult to say. And as he said, if the camera was not on, he wouldn't be able to say it right. He has to be honest or his version of being honest. Because the camera is on and his wife is there listening.
- [68:37]
Sean Fenn
There's a choice made in the movie.
- [68:38]
Richard Gere
That I think is really interesting. I was wondering if you feel similarly in your life through this. Which is. There are moments that are rendered that are the Jacob Elordi version of Leonard Fife. And then you appear in the frame. You are the Leonard. The present day Leonard Fife is appearing in this historical context. And that's sort of the only connected to that idea. Because I can only see my present self in my past experience. And I assume that was in the script. But I'm curious, kind of how you talked through that. And if you feel similarly about going.
- [69:07]
Uma Thurman
Through your memories, it's easier. I find it easier to relate to who I was. I can't imagine myself being a 75 year old man. That's kind of like, what. How did that happen? So I sometimes see myself in the mirror and wonder who that is. Do you remember the end of 2001?
- [69:33]
Sean Fenn
Sure.
- [69:34]
Richard Gere
In the bedroom.
- [69:35]
Uma Thurman
When it starts to go crazy at the end. As I get older, I understand that. I mean, really understand it. Not just wow, but No, I get that.
- [69:48]
Richard Gere
It's mystifying when you're young though, to.
- [69:50]
Sean Fenn
Watch that movie because you have no relationship.
- [69:51]
Uma Thurman
It's equally fascinating to me what that ending was. But I feel it viscerally now.
- [69:58]
Richard Gere
So you felt like you were tapping into some of that sensation for this?
- [70:01]
Sean Fenn
I think so.
- [70:03]
Uma Thurman
The childhood. Childhood Memories and end of life memories and projections are all in the same fabric.
- [70:11]
Richard Gere
Hmm. What about the acting style into that interrotron esque camera? That's pretty unusual as an actor to be asked to go into camera in the way that Leonard is because of this kind of documentary that's being made about him. Was that, do you think much about like the performance style and how as opposed to playing off of someone specifically or you're. You're in close up for extended periods of time, delivering dialogue?
- [70:37]
Uma Thurman
I can't remember. Well, we had. I mean, I was, as is true to the technique, the Errol Morris technique, you do see someone.
- [70:46]
Richard Gere
Was it Michael that you were seeing?
- [70:47]
Uma Thurman
I was seeing Michael and then I had the idea. I said, look, he's doing it for her, for his wife, for Uma. I said, paul, don't you think you should get her into it so he can talk directly to her? And he thought that was a good idea. So we passioned away to get her. I insisted. I said, I don't want to talk to you anymore, Michael.
- [71:12]
Richard Gere
Right.
- [71:12]
Uma Thurman
I don't even like you. I want to talk to my wife. And he acquiesces to that and she moves over. So I am speaking directly to her. It's just the viewer doesn't see that.
- [71:24]
Richard Gere
Right, right. Yeah. It struck me as an unusual way of seeing you perform. You just very rarely see an actor, a movie star, into camera saying, there's.
- [71:35]
Uma Thurman
Another film that we just completed and it's actually on the Dalai Lama. And it's this footage that was done by these Swiss filmmakers. It was pre Covid and they used the same technique. And His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, is looking right into the camera. And it's extraordinary. Someone that developed, but to be able. It's like you're having a private teaching with him, seeing directly into his intent. It's not peripheral, it's directly. And again, someone that developed. You're getting it now. You know, this character and this actor, Richard Gere, are not of that quality. But you get. So there is something about looking directly into a lens that as a viewer, it touches you in a different place psychologically, emotionally.
- [72:26]
Richard Gere
I'm obsessed with, with Errol's movies. And it's one of the reasons why, sort of like even if people are lying, the camera cannot lie specifically in that context when you're forced to look down the barrel. So I thought that was just such a great stroke of inspiration for this movie. I was wondering about you and Jacob. You know, Jacob is kind of at this phase that you were Once at.
- [72:48]
Uma Thurman
We had no idea, by the way.
- [72:50]
Richard Gere
That he was going to be in that.
- [72:51]
Sean Fenn
Because of when you made this?
- [72:53]
Uma Thurman
No. I mean, we. I kind of like the radar was. He's one of the young actors who was terrific. And Paul gave me a list of possible actors who could play me. So, of course, we talked about it. I went and looked at one of his things. He said, look, he's really good. He's striking. You know, he's got some magic about him. But we didn't know that he was gonna, you know. Like, there was one day I was not shooting there, but they said 500 girls showed up. And it was like. Everyone was like, walk. Oh, what is going on here? So Paul and I kind of lucked into having this kid in the movie who's wonderful in the film, but he's also a really nice kid. Yeah, he's really a sweetheart.
- [73:39]
Richard Gere
Did you. I mean, does he want advice from you? Do you have advice for him? I mean, it is striking, actually, how similar. The sort of, like, arc of simultaneously, you know, being identified very early on as a very, very talented actor but a beautiful kind of rising star.
- [73:56]
Sean Fenn
And there's a mirror here.
- [73:58]
Uma Thurman
It was later for me, and there'd been a lot of theater work and I'd done regional theater and New York and London. And I feel like I'd been around a lot before I was even pointed towards making movies.
- [74:15]
Richard Gere
And his is happening more fast.
- [74:16]
Uma Thurman
That happens anymore? It kind of happens really quick before actors are able to kind of explore themselves more, before they're out there.
- [74:26]
Richard Gere
You think that's a good or a bad thing?
- [74:29]
Uma Thurman
I tend to think it's a challenge that maybe can destroy people.
- [74:34]
Richard Gere
Did you have any.
- [74:35]
Uma Thurman
I think it's healthier to wait. And certainly I was in my late 20s when it started to happen.
- [74:41]
Richard Gere
Was your hope that it would happen faster back then? Do you remember?
- [74:43]
Uma Thurman
No.
- [74:44]
Richard Gere
You were coming.
- [74:44]
Uma Thurman
I was really happy doing theater. In fact, I might have had a little chip in my shoulder about movies as being, you know.
- [74:52]
Richard Gere
Yeah. You hear that sometimes that. That's not the real acting. The movie acting.
- [74:56]
Uma Thurman
Yeah.
- [74:56]
Richard Gere
You miss the theater?
- [74:58]
Sean Fenn
No, it's very hard.
- [75:00]
Uma Thurman
The last piece that I did was over 40 years ago.
- [75:03]
Sean Fenn
Wow.
- [75:03]
Uma Thurman
In fact, it was right after. I think it was right after I did Gigolo with Paul. And I must say that doing a long run, I don't know that I have the muscle for that. I get tired of the repetition. And there's a lot of repetition in filmmaking, all the different angles. And some of you end up saying, A line or a sequence 50 to 100 times. And by the end of that, your brain is kind of fluid. Yeah, yeah, but I'm. I think I'm more built for making films.
- [75:45]
Richard Gere
I was thinking about your career, which is now almost 50 years long. You've worked with longer. Longer. Well, I guess you include the theater as well.
- [75:54]
Uma Thurman
19. So that's 56 years. Yeah, 56.
- [76:01]
Richard Gere
As a person obsessed with movies, I of the movie as the beginning of the career. But Malick Coppola, Lumet Altman Schrader, many of the legendary figures.
- [76:12]
Uma Thurman
I'm talking to my son about this. My son is beginning a career himself as an actor, which came out of nowhere. He had no interest and then started fooling around at school and realizing, wow, this is really fun. Which it is. It's really fun and it's play. I said, look, I was really. Partly was my choice is that I was smart enough to know that I wanted to work with really good directors, but also the opportunities presented themselves and I took advantage of that. So really, all of my early films were some of the very best directors around.
- [76:52]
Richard Gere
Yeah. Looking at the filmography, I noticed, like, a real lack of cynicism in all the choices that you're making. You know, there's not a lot of. You're not trying to cash in at any time.
- [77:02]
Sean Fenn
I really.
- [77:02]
Richard Gere
I really admire.
- [77:03]
Uma Thurman
No, if anything, it was probably the opposite. When things got too big, I kind of pulled way back and did some obviously uncommercial projects that would probably obfuscate, you know, what I was.
- [77:15]
Richard Gere
Was that because of a sense of fear or concern about.
- [77:18]
Uma Thurman
I think I just wanted to get out of it, really. Yeah. It was too much.
- [77:21]
Richard Gere
You feel like that was a good choice, looking back on it now?
- [77:23]
Uma Thurman
Yeah.
- [77:24]
Richard Gere
Yeah.
- [77:26]
Uma Thurman
There certainly were periods where maybe I had less opportunities because my movies were not making that kind of money. And I like to have the opportunities, like all of us, everyone in this, the three of us in this room.
- [77:42]
Richard Gere
Right now, I don't think our opportunities are quite the same as yours, but we're trying.
- [77:47]
Uma Thurman
Whatever you choose, you know, you want to be moving into a position of, you know, working with the best, doing the best, having the most fun.
- [77:57]
Richard Gere
Is there a great filmmaker you'd always wanted to work with and it never worked out?
- [78:00]
Uma Thurman
Well, there have been a lot. I can't remember one, you know, kind of going, I'm going to hold my breath, die unless I work with that.
- [78:11]
Richard Gere
No white whale. So having been through the business for this many years, do you have a sense of the Health of movies. It's an ongoing discussion on this show about if this is all going to be okay, if this art form.
- [78:24]
Uma Thurman
I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm a dinosaur, so, you know, I don't know.
- [78:31]
Richard Gere
You care.
- [78:32]
Uma Thurman
Yeah, I do care, because I think there was. I remember in New York that it was a deep part of who everyone was, was going to the movies together and having that communal experience. And if there was a new Bergman or a Truffaut or a Kurosawa or a Fellini or Antonioni or whatever, it's like you just waited for that moment and you were in line for the first showing. And I don't know that that happens. And if it is, it's for kind of a popcorn movie, which, you know is fine, but it's a sugar experience.
- [79:17]
Richard Gere
Yeah.
- [79:18]
Uma Thurman
These. That in the 60s and 70s, it was nurturing. It made you think, it made you feel. Challenge how you saw the universe, how you saw yourself and others. I'm not sure that that's happening.
- [79:37]
Richard Gere
What about your kids? You know, you mentioned your son is pursuing acting. Like, do you. Did you give movies to them or did they reject it because of your career in any way?
- [79:47]
Uma Thurman
No, I mean, my son, he's very thankful that, you know, when I would put him to sleep at night, we would often sit and watch Turner Classic Movies. So he. From very early age, he's watching black and white films when there was this incredible mix of entertainment but of literature and the language of film was evolving, was becoming itself at that point. And he realized now that it just became part of his DNA. He understands that.
- [80:21]
Richard Gere
Is there a film in your career that you think is misunderstood or underrated or something that you think people should go back to and take a look at?
- [80:29]
Sean Fenn
Because there was.
- [80:31]
Uma Thurman
You should talk to my friend Jonathan Cott, because he has several of those that he brings up all the time.
- [80:37]
Richard Gere
Is there an example of one like, I was thinking about Yankees.
- [80:39]
Uma Thurman
Mr. Jones was one.
- [80:41]
Richard Gere
Oh, interesting.
- [80:42]
Sean Fenn
I haven't seen that in some time. I know.
- [80:43]
Uma Thurman
Extreme bipolar guy. Yeah, he thinks that was completely off the radar. Never should have been. It should have been seen, interesting and appreciated for what it was. And there was a film I did a few years ago called Norman, which was a small movie with a small release that probably not enough people saw. Joseph Cedar, a wonderful Israeli director, directed that, and Oren Moverman produced that, who had done, I think, five or six movies from now. The Hoax, my friend, brings up a lot, too.
- [81:22]
Richard Gere
I love the Hoax.
- [81:24]
Uma Thurman
I thought the Hoax Also was a really good film. There's an Great performance. Mr. What was it called? Dr. T and the Women.
- [81:30]
Richard Gere
I just watched it the other day.
- [81:32]
Uma Thurman
You know, I remember Bob saying to me, I said it's the best I can do. What do they want from me?
- [81:37]
Sean Fenn
They were hard on that one.
- [81:38]
Uma Thurman
What do they want?
- [81:39]
Richard Gere
Yeah, yeah. It feels very much like a Robert Altman film. It's not any different than any of the seventies movies the way that it works. That's a fun movie.
- [81:47]
Uma Thurman
It is a fun movie. I think it's. He was. I mean the last sequence is a young woman giving birth and it's in close up and you can imagine especially all the Catholic countries wanted the scene out. But Bob and I talked about it. I said the movie doesn't work unless that's there.
- [82:07]
Richard Gere
Right.
- [82:07]
Uma Thurman
It actually is. It's the magic of that is the magic of the film is that we are inventing and creating our universe all the time in kind of unimaginable ways. And he refused to take it out. So we didn't have release in a lot of Catholic countries.
- [82:29]
Richard Gere
That's so strange. That's a really interesting movie. That's a good example of a movie that people should go back to and take a look at. Maybe reconsider. You took a break between 17 and 23 from making any movies. I've, you know, as a casual observer was like, oh, I guess Richard Gere's not, he's retired or he's not going to make movies anymore.
- [82:44]
Uma Thurman
Was that from when?
- [82:45]
Richard Gere
From 2017 to 2023. No real films released at that time. Was that like.
- [82:50]
Uma Thurman
No, I have to look up doesn't. I don't feel like dart.
- [82:53]
Richard Gere
Nothing, not. Nothing purposeful about that.
- [82:55]
Uma Thurman
I think there were films.
- [82:57]
Richard Gere
Yeah.
- [82:57]
Uma Thurman
Look it up. I don't know.
- [82:58]
Richard Gere
Yeah, I don't, I don't think so.
- [83:00]
Uma Thurman
Five years without making a movie.
- [83:02]
Richard Gere
Yeah. Unless some stuff was sitting on the shelf. Yeah. You've got the dinner in three Christs in 17 and then maybe I do last year and there's a gap there. I guess maybe you were making movies during that period.
- [83:13]
Uma Thurman
Well, I didn't make any movies during COVID I mean that was a two year period.
- [83:20]
Richard Gere
Yeah.
- [83:22]
Uma Thurman
I don't know. Wasn't any conscious things.
- [83:24]
Richard Gere
Are you think about retiring? Is that something you. Is that even an idea that matters to you?
- [83:29]
Uma Thurman
I keep talking to my wife about it but she says you can't.
- [83:32]
Sean Fenn
Why?
- [83:33]
Richard Gere
Because you have young kids. Yeah, that's funny.
- [83:38]
Sean Fenn
I'm curious.
- [83:39]
Richard Gere
Also, whenever I talk to actors and I Say, like, is there a kind of part you'd be curious. Do you like to try to play? They always say, I'd like to do a musical. There's not as many musicals made. But you've done that, You've done a musical. Is there like a certain kind of a part or like a certain kind of a film you've always wanted to do?
- [83:54]
Uma Thurman
No, I like to do more things with music. I really like. When I started, when I came to New York from regional theaters, it was a time of rock operas and I was very lucky. I had hair down to my tits. I was going to say, you can say it. And I was in rock bands and I could play a lot of instruments, I could sing and all that. So I was working immediately. I was very fortunate. And then I didn't do musicals for all these years and then did Chicago. I'd forgotten how much fun it is.
- [84:31]
Richard Gere
Yeah. Is there a reason why? Because, you know, you were on Broadway in a musical right before the films in the 70s. Right. And then that wasn't really a part of your on screen Persona at all.
- [84:43]
Uma Thurman
No, it's not like I was saying no to it. It just didn't.
- [84:47]
Richard Gere
People didn't know. Or did you go up for stuff? Do you remember?
- [84:51]
Uma Thurman
They just weren't happening. I mean, what musicals were happening, though?
- [84:54]
Richard Gere
Yeah, yeah, I guess that's true. It is sort of a Lost style.
- [84:58]
Uma Thurman
But it's also. I probably shouldn't say this, but I didn't really. I was entertained by Chicago on Broadway, but I didn't think it was great. And I was kind of like, mm, when it came my way and I read the script and the script was brilliant. It was brilliant. Made sense of it as a movie and a deeper kind of weird exploration of people.
- [85:28]
Richard Gere
Yeah.
- [85:29]
Uma Thurman
Especially that woman.
- [85:30]
Richard Gere
It's a great movie about fame.
- [85:33]
Uma Thurman
Projection. Fame. Who am I? What's real? What is power? You know, I play the cynical guy in it who understands it all and plays it. But it's all literally seen through her. I mean, it's in her eye. It comes out of her eye. And you see her being swept into this dream of being somebody. I mean, it was very rare. And then with Rob Marshall, who's such a brilliant director, you're about to do.
- [86:07]
Richard Gere
Your first US TV series. You've already shot it.
- [86:10]
Uma Thurman
We shot the first 10 episodes. Yeah.
- [86:12]
Richard Gere
So I know you did something in the UK at some point, but not. I did.
- [86:16]
Uma Thurman
Did a BBC thing.
- [86:18]
Richard Gere
Yeah. But no other television besides that over the years, I assume they must have come to You. Many times, yeah.
- [86:23]
Uma Thurman
I mean, there was a stigma, I guess about that early on, but that stigma went away years ago.
- [86:30]
Richard Gere
But still you held out.
- [86:31]
Uma Thurman
The quality was so high in these things. Not everything, but it was higher than most of the movies being made. And this was. They came to me and it was a version of a. Of a French series called Le Buro Le Bureau. And the spy thing, I've seen it.
- [86:52]
Richard Gere
It's very good.
- [86:52]
Uma Thurman
Terrific, terrific series. I think it was six years or seven years, something like that, of stuff. And my wife and I were hooked on it. We loved it. One of the few things we could see after the kids went to bed and we couldn't, you know, we were about ready. But okay, the hour of that was great. That's a great show. And this was put together with terrific actors Michael Fassbender and Jeffrey Wright. It just seemed like, okay, that made sense. Plus I was going to be living in Madrid and that would be easy to go to and shoot.
- [87:32]
Richard Gere
Different at all from making the films?
- [87:34]
Uma Thurman
No, none. Really, none. You have a script, you have characters every day. You've got to make the scenes work. And everyone there comes out of moviemaking. The crew's, you know, same. They come out of moviemaking.
- [87:50]
Richard Gere
The trailer to me just looks like a movie. Every actor in it is a movie actor. It is kind of fascinating.
- [87:56]
Uma Thurman
Oh, you're shocked with those. Look, it's the biggest set I've ever seen in my life. It's huge. Soundstage in London, outside of London, and a bigger budget. I mean, I. I've been making, happily making movies. Four million, five million, six million dollars. And we shoot for 20 or 25 days. I'm fine with that. I'm perfect. That's half an episode on these TV shows.
- [88:24]
Richard Gere
Yeah, yeah, it was a big deal, Richard. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen.
- [88:32]
Uma Thurman
The last great thing I've seen.
- [88:34]
Richard Gere
Have you seen, you know, obviously a cinephile.
- [88:36]
Uma Thurman
I have to be honest with you, this is not self serving. Just this film that we've been editing and we just finished on the Dalai Lama.
- [88:46]
Richard Gere
What is it? Does it have a title?
- [88:47]
Uma Thurman
It's still moving. Yeah. It's called the Wisdom of Happiness. Ernie has footage of his Holiness the Dalai Lama as a child, but takes him through his whole life. The invasion from China.
- [89:07]
Richard Gere
This is someone you've been friends with for years. This is someone you've been friends with for years too.
- [89:12]
Uma Thurman
45 years. It's been a teacher of mine and I just move. I'm so moved. Working on it. Orin and I re edited the entire thing and then found footage and we did, but I was just. And when we showed it the first time at the Zurich Film Festival last month, and I was just devastated. I found it so moving and so powerful.
- [89:40]
Richard Gere
The wisdom of happiness.
- [89:41]
Uma Thurman
Yeah.
- [89:42]
Richard Gere
Richard Gere, thank you so much for doing this.
- [89:43]
Uma Thurman
Thank you.
- [89:52]
Sean Fenn
Thank you to Richard Gere. Thanks to Joanna Robinson. Thank you to Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode. Thanks to our producer, Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Shout out to Jack and Bobby. We got fucking Juan Soto, baby. Later this week, the king of physical media comes to the big picture. Who is that, you might ask? You'll have to listen in to find out. See you then.