The 'Star Wars' Movie Draft

Summary

The Big Picture – The ‘Star Wars’ Movie Draft

Date: April 27, 2026
Host: Sean Fennessey
Panel: Amanda Dobbins, Chris Ryan (CR), Mallory Rubin, Van Lathan

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Episode Overview

This episode is a wide-ranging, lively “Star Wars Movie Draft,” featuring an all-star panel of Ringer regulars (Sean Fennessey, Amanda Dobbins, CR, Mallory Rubin, Van Lathan). The purpose: to draft the greatest, weirdest, most iconic “Star Wars” things—movies, characters, vehicles, moments, and wild cards—across clever categories, in honor of the upcoming theatrical release, “The Mandalorian and Grogu.”

Over nearly two hours, the hosts reminisce on their relationships with the franchise, argue the merits and failures of various installments (especially the prequels and sequels), dissect particular characters, and attempt to tactically out-draft each other—all with huge doses of humor, nostalgia, and a little outrage. The episode is both a reflection on the enduring force of “Star Wars” fandom and a playful meta-critique of Hollywood IP culture and their own fan obsessions.

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Key Discussion Points

Personal Star Wars Journeys (01:36–15:28)

• Amanda reflects on introducing “Star Wars” to her kids, noting how “Phantom Menace” fell very flat for her as a new viewer.
  • “I knew everything about Jar Jar Binks except actually what that character was like, and I really couldn't believe it.” (03:36)
• Mallory recounts seeing the Special Edition re-releases in theaters with her dad as formative fandom memories.
• Van describes watching the original trilogy in the 1980s with his dad, comparing the impact to a religious experience.
• Host panel riffs on “Star Wars” as a cultural touchstone and personal mythology, versus “Star Trek” as ‘classical’ sci-fi, with multifaceted generational entry points.

The Evolving Relationship with the Franchise (15:28–27:26)

• The group explores how growing up with “Star Wars” means grappling with its uneven legacy, especially with the advent of the prequels and Disney-era content.
• Van discusses coming to “respect and enjoy” the prequels over time, even as a backlash leader, with Lucas’s ambition, sophistication, and fan expectations.
  • “The prequels definitely deepened my connection to ‘Star Wars.’ They sophisticated ‘Star Wars’ for me a little bit, even if they did that imperfectly.” (13:14)
• Amanda notes the unique heartbreak and radical experimentation of watching “Star Wars” change, and how it’s both a blueprint and cautionary tale for modern fandom.

The Corporate/Artistic Tension (17:27–20:32)

• Sean and Van observe that “Star Wars” is a deeply personal, emotional artifact, but also a dominant corporation’s asset—creating a constant friction between art and business.
• Van points out: “All of this stuff has been corporatized. ... With Star Wars, there’s almost specific criticism that people levy at it because of the expectation of the purity of Star Wars.”
  • The panel asks: should you “theme park ride” Star Wars?
    • Mallory: “If you can do it right, do as much of it as you can. But when you do it wrong... people are gonna have all kinds of reasons about why it’s going wrong.”

Draft Structure and Categories Explained (29:55–41:48)

• Sean introduces draft categories:
  • Movie (best film)
  • Movie You’ve Been Cursed With (worst film, assigned to others)
  • Skywalker Family Member
  • Hero or Villain
  • Vehicle (spaceship, speeder, etc.)
  • Problematic Character (troubling within or outside universe)
  • Wild Card (any cool “Star Wars” thing—object, moment, person...)
• Animated theatrical release (“Clone Wars,” 2008) is deemed eligible.
• Debates over eligibility: who is a Skywalker, can droids count, what counts as a vehicle, etc.

The Draft Begins: Early Picks and Rationale (43:02–63:49)

• Sean (#1): Drafts “The Empire Strikes Back” as the best movie.
  • “I think it’s amazing that it turned out the way that it did... It’s my favorite Star Wars movie.”
• Mallory (#2): Picks “A New Hope,” emphasizing its mythic and cinematic influence.
  • “It changed movies, it changed genre films, but it changed movies, and it changed movie history.”
• Van (#3): Takes Darth Vader (as hero/villain), calling him “one of the most iconic characters in American and world cultural history.”
• Amanda (#4): Selects Han Solo (as Skywalker family—by marriage), her personal entry point into Star Wars.
• CR (#5): Gets Luke Skywalker (Skywalker family), “the root of all the mythological stuff that attracts people to Star Wars across generations.”
• A string of debates follows over draft strategy—whether to pick favorite movies or most important characters first.

Heated Sequel/Prequel Discourse (63:49–77:35)

• Amanda defends “The Last Jedi” as an emotionally broadening, visually stunning, and brave installment, while Van expresses continued frustration at certain creative decisions, especially around Luke’s character.
  • Sean and Mallory argue that wrestling with fallibility is what makes the movie powerful.
• The shifting perspectives across generations are highlighted, with Amanda and Sean noting how their children engage with different “Star Wars” eras differently than they did.
• Memorable Line:
  • “Somehow Palpatine Returns is one of the low points of my life.” (21:55, Mallory)
• Van: “Making Luke Skywalker hold a lightsaber and decide on whether or not he’s going to murder his nephew in cold blood is akin to me, to making Seth Rogen James Bond.” (65:41)

Memorable Draft Picks & Major Arguments (78:33–101:44)

• Mallory snags “lightsabers” as her wild card—“one of the most iconic things in all of pop culture, all of the world.” (78:33)
• Van picks “the Force”—describing its religious and metaphorical power for fans: “The thing that more intrigued me about Star Wars...was this idea that there was this thing that binded the universe together, and that accessing it would let you overcome any sort of evil that you were up against.” (79:47)
• Amanda chooses John Williams as wild card: “These movies don’t exist...without that score, which is honestly probably the greatest classical music of our lifetime.”
• Problematic character category triggers hilarious debate:
  • Amanda takes Padme (“that is an age gap romance, and I have some real issues with that” (83:42))
  • Mallory snags Jar Jar Binks, noting not only is the character a racial stereotype, but is in-universe responsible for the rise of tyranny.
  • Van goes with Emperor Palpatine as a problematic villain—“big time groomer... notoriously a racist.” (114:04, 116:05)
• Vehicles: Millennium Falcon, X-wings, speeder bikes, TIE Advanced X1 (Darth Vader’s fighter), and Luke’s landspeeder all go off the board.

Cursed Movies Distributed (82:43–101:12, 121:23, 131:23)

• “Cursed movies”—the worst to rewatch, sometimes strategically assigned to foil a strong draft:
  • Amanda gets “The Phantom Menace” (CR calls it “just kind of boring at times” (88:48))
  • CR receives “Solo: A Star Wars Story” (“It’s not my favorite movie, but it’s certainly not in the bottom.”)
  • Van is hit with “The Rise of Skywalker”: “If you’re cursed with that movie, you’ve lost your entire board.” (98:32)
  • Sean gets “Attack of the Clones.”
  • Mallory receives “The Force Awakens.”

Wild Card Picks & Category Debate (97:59–131:10)

• Mallory attempts to draft “C-3PO” (built by Anakin) and later “midichlorians” as Skywalker family. Hilarious protest:
  • Sean: “Midichlorians are not a person. This is family member. This is meant to be a person.” (127:06)
  • Mallory: “Droids in Star Wars are main characters.”
  • Final pick is Shmi Skywalker (Anakin’s mother).
• Vehicles like AT-ATs, Star Destroyers, and Slave I (“it had to be renamed”) come up as honorable mentions.

Lightning Round: Honorable Mentions & Hilarious Sidebars (136:03–153:53)

• Panel muses on unpicked characters: Chewbacca, Wedge, Mace Windu, Qui-Gon Jinn, Poe, Finn, droids generally.
• Problematic runners-up: Watto, Uncle Owen, Tusken Raiders, Jawas.
• Favorite moments, planet picks, weapons, and music all debated.
• Memorable moment:
  • Mallory’s failed C-3PO/midichlorian play and the resulting group groans.
  • Van introduces trivia: Only five directors are billionaires—Cameron, Spielberg, Lucas, Tyler Perry, and Peter Jackson. (143:28)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Mallory (on “A New Hope”):
  “If you made me pick... my single favorite moment in Star Wars history... it’s binary sunsets. There’s just nothing like it.” (45:48)
• Van (on Darth Vader):
  “He is synonymous with villain, with evil, but he is also synonymous with twisted good. He’s the breathe, the breathing, the moving, the lights, everything cool ass motherfucker that your heart goes out to.” (46:19)
• Amanda (on Han Solo):
  “Han Solo is just a very hot, charismatic man and is my entry point into what is exciting about Star Wars.” (51:19)
• CR (on Luke):
  “It is the root of all the mythological stuff that I think attracts people to Star Wars across generations. And it’s just like a kid from nowhere becoming the most important thing in the universe. It’s like this really powerful dream.” (56:07)
• Sean (on Kylo/Ben Solo):
  “Kylo Ren is one of my favorite characters in movies in the last 20 years... Such a perfect evocation of a certain kind of male psyche...” (74:03)
• Amanda (on Padme):
  “That is an age gap romance and I have some real issues with that. In addition, she is endangering her handmaidens with the swishoo...” (83:57)
• Mallory (on Jar Jar):
  “Jar Jar is not only... a racist caricature... he’s also responsible for fascism and tyranny reigning across the Galactic Empire.” (95:34)
• Van (on Palpatine):
  “Big time groomer, a liar... so addicted to power that he can’t allow anybody else to have power.” (114:21)
• Debating droids as family:
  • Sean: “This is family member. This is meant to be a person.”
  • Mallory: “Droids in Star Wars are main characters.” (129:42)
• Mallory (on Shmi):
  “The matriarch who allowed us... to talk about this at all: Shmi.” (147:32)
• John Williams love:
  • Amanda: “The music itself can bring me to tears, honestly, more than the movies can.” (91:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:36] — Meet the panelists, Star Wars importance to them
• [03:40] — Amanda and her son’s first viewing of “Phantom Menace”
• [05:35] — Mallory and Amanda recall seeing Special Edition re-releases
• [07:47] — Van: the “religious experience” of Star Wars
• [10:17] — Star Wars as a “living experiment” in fandom and the volatility of new content
• [21:55] — The “Somehow Palpatine Returns” dialogue
• [29:55] — Draft rules and categories explained
• [43:02] — The draft begins (first movie picks)
• [51:19] — Amanda picks Han Solo (Skywalker Family, by marriage)
• [63:49–66:39] — “Last Jedi” debate (Amanda, Mallory, Van, Sean)
• [78:33] — Mallory picks lightsabers (Wildcard)
• [79:47] — Van picks the Force (Wildcard)
• [91:13] — Amanda: John Williams’ score as Wildcard
• [95:34] — Mallory picks Jar Jar (Problematic Character)
• [99:22] — Sean picks TIE Advanced X1 (Vader’s fighter) for Vehicle
• [114:21] — Van picks Emperor Palpatine as Problematic Character
• [127:06] — Sean rules out midichlorians as a Skywalker family member
• [143:28] — The “Five billionaire directors” trivia question

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Draft Results Cheat Sheet (Summary)

(Detailed board with each host’s picks also recited around [146:06])

Sean:

• Movie: The Empire Strikes Back
• Skywalker: Princess Leia
• Hero/Villain: Kylo Ren (Ben Solo)
• Cursed With: Attack of the Clones
• Vehicle: Darth Vader’s TIE Advanced X1
• Problematic Character: Nute Gunray
• Wildcard: Boba Fett

Mallory:

• Movie: A New Hope
• Hero/Villain: Obi-Wan Kenobi
• Wildcard: Lightsabers
• Problematic Character: Jar Jar Binks
• Cursed With: The Force Awakens
• Vehicle: X-wings
• Skywalker: Shmi Skywalker

Van:

• Hero/Villain: Darth Vader
• Vehicle: Millennium Falcon
• Wildcard: The Force
• Skywalker: Rey
• Movie: Return of the Jedi
• Problematic Character: Emperor Palpatine
• Cursed With: The Rise of Skywalker

Amanda:

• Skywalker: Han Solo (by marriage)
• Movie: The Last Jedi
• Problematic Character: Padme Amidala
• Wildcard: John Williams (score)
• Vehicle: Speeder bikes
• Hero/Villain: Yoda
• Cursed With: The Phantom Menace

CR:

• Skywalker: Luke Skywalker
• Movie: Rogue One
• Wildcard: Death Star
• Cursed With: Solo: A Star Wars Story
• Hero/Villain: Cassian Andor
• Problematic Character: Jabba the Hutt
• Vehicle: Luke’s Landspeeder

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

• Extremely playful and self-aware, with moments of nerdy earnestness, frequent feisty debate, and tongue-in-cheek riffs on fandom, canon, and “Star Wars” infamy.
• The draft is part celebration, part affectionate roast, as each host both claims their favorites and tries to stick the others with cursed picks.
• The panel is quick to interrogate franchise legacy, critique the prequels and the “Disney era,” and acknowledge flaws—while affirming the genuine joy “Star Wars” still brings.
• Ongoing inside jokes: Chipper Jones as Van’s favorite “white boy,” wild debates about who qualifies as family or a Skywalker, bemused references to fandom “sins” like CGI Tarkin, and more.

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For New Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

If you love “Star Wars” (or love arguing about “Star Wars”), this episode is both a loving tribute and a masterclass in fan debate. The hosts blend personal nostalgia, sharp pop culture criticism, and screwball banter—making even the most arcane in-universe controversies feel welcoming and fun. The draft format keeps the episode snappy and competitive, while the affectionate exasperation over the franchise's missteps is as cathartic as it is entertaining.

Skip the advertisements—the episode is a blast from minute one of draft prep to the final arguments about droids, dignity, and midichlorians as parentage.

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Further Listening

• “The Big Picture” archive for previous “Star Wars” deep-dives and live-watch discussinos
• “House of R” for more of Mallory Rubin’s thoughts on the Star Wars EU and animated content
• Ringer’s “Rewatchables: Star Wars” for more classic franchise banter

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Sean Fennessey]

This episode is brought to you by the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. The Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book your favorite hotel site your go to airline and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway, from booking your stay to that first meal, when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bullspend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn Ads generates the highest rating roas of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads you can target by company, industry, job title and more. So cut the bull. Spend advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com thebigpicture that's LinkedIn.com thebigpicture Terms and cond. I'm Sean Fennesee.

[Amanda Dyer]

I'm Amanda Dyer.

[Sean Fennessey]

And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about Star Wars. CR is here, which must mean we are drafting today. But he's not the only one. We are also joined by two superstars of fandom and culture podcasting. Mallory Rubin of House of R and Van Lathan of of the Midnight Boys. Ringer, Tailgate.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Higher Learning. The Rewatchables.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Big Picture podcast.

[Van Lathan]

I come on here a lot.

[Sean Fennessey]

What's your substack called?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, it's called fuck you if you disagree. Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

All of those things.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay. That's a good one.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I thought we should all.

[Amanda Dyer]

Is it fuck you if you disagree.substack.com

[Van Lathan]

it's actually the name of the blog part. I think it's just Van Lathan, but

[CR]

I think it's fuck you, but fuck

[Van Lathan]

you if you disagree is a part of the game.

[Mallory Rubin]

Either way is good.

[Amanda Dyer]

I just want to make sure. People can get where they need to go.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's tough.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[CR]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like it.

[Sean Fennessey]

A lot of strong opinions on that substack. I thought we could all get together to talk about Star wars because there is a Star wars movie coming out in less than a month, and that movie is called the Mandalorian and Grogu.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

I can say for at least four of us, Star wars is very important. Amanda, would you say that Star wars is important to you?

[Amanda Dyer]

We're finding me this. We are once again finding me at a very interesting point in my Star wars journey, because I have two young sons and they are coming alive to the possibility of Star Wars. And for whatever reason, I think it's mostly because my husband was like, yeah, let's show them Star Wars. I am okay with this. At least the original trilogy. I feel really good about showing to them. I'll tell you why, Van Lathan, because last night I and my older son Knox saw Phantom Menace together for the first time. Both of us sitting down for the first time. Yelza. That was bad. That was bad. It was bad to look at. I knew everything about Jar Jar Binks except actually what that character was like, and I really couldn't believe it. So.

[CR]

But do you want to do the voice now?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, we can do that on camera and into the mic. Yeah.

[Amanda Dyer]

But this is a.

[Sean Fennessey]

Millions of Star wars fans just turned the podcast.

[Van Lathan]

I love.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're a millennial and you're a prequel kid. Just because of your age group.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah. And I'm elder, though. I don't know. I thought it was quite bad. And so I'm watching these again as the parent of a child and I was like, this is not interesting. Visually ugly and mostly about taxes or trade routes or both. Honestly wasn't clear to either of us. So that was sort of an issue.

[Van Lathan]

Very relevant.

[Amanda Dyer]

The original three are exciting and, you know, beautifully handmade and you understand, like, it's. You've talked about when your parents went to see it and the spaceship goes over your head and you're just like, wow, I'm seeing something magical.

[CR]

I see Utero at that moment.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah. And there we go. And here we are now. It's beautiful.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Post coital, one might say so.

[CR]

Well, eight months after.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is that how long it was whenever

[CR]

it debuted in 77. It was right before I was born. Was summer.

[Sean Fennessey]

Coincidence. I thank God.

[CR]

Yeah. Look where I got to in my life.

[Amanda Dyer]

So I'm growing, you know, I'm learning. And parts of Star Wars. I'm really Embracing and other parts.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, well, that was a very open minded testimonial there about the Phantom Menace.

[Amanda Dyer]

It was really bad. So.

[Sean Fennessey]

So I'd like for each of us to talk about the first Star wars movie that we saw and how it made us feel. Now you've talked about this. Obviously you just shared that you. Would you describe that as having seen

[Mallory Rubin]

it when he was a female?

[CR]

That's a really interesting question about when life begins.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay, great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Only me, Van and Chris should be able to talk about that. What do you guys think?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think that's a good idea. We can just lean back, just listen, we'll recline and relax.

[Van Lathan]

Cut down.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, we'll just process and receive.

[Sean Fennessey]

What was your first.

[Mallory Rubin]

So my first experience with Star wars was, if you guys will recall, they re released the original trilogy on the eve of the prequels. And my dad took me to see the re release at the Senator Theater in Baltimore. And it is one of the foundational formative filmgoing and fandom and nerd experiences of my Life.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was it 97? What year was that?

[Mallory Rubin]

So Phantom Menace came out in 99. So they re released them in 98. 97 or 98 heading into it. So I was like 12, I was in, you know, in middle school. And it was just the best. And I remember like really kind of thinking back on that when Jason and I did binge mode Star wars. And like I have this really specific kind of concrete memory in my mind. Like I feel perhaps apocryphally that I can remember where I was sitting. And yet like 10 times I've had to text my dad, did we see this at the Senator or the Charles? You know, so that's how memory works, right? But every time I ask him that, he texts me back within 10 seconds, the senator, exclamation point. Like, it's such a fun memory for him too, to have gotten to like introduce me to Star Wars. And then we rolled right in from the rerelease of the original trilogy into Phantom Menace, which is like a foundational experience in another way, including recognizing at a very young, impressionable age that things are not always consistently excellent. And you know your fandom is a journey over time, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

It is.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, yeah, it's just the best. And it's been a part of my life since I was very young.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you remember your first one?

[Amanda Dyer]

I also went to that rerelease. I went, I think Phipps Plaza in Atlanta, Georgia. Yeah, you know it. And with my friend Drew, my like, who is probably listening. And our Parents had a similar thing where my parents were not super pop culture plugged in, as we have learned over these years. But even they were like, we think we should take you to go see Star Wars. And I went with a friend. I remember being like, cool, yeah, you know, that was pretty good. I don't think I saw the other two in theaters. So again, I was 14, so a slight difference in age and attitude at that point in my life, but that was a big deal. I remember it.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was. The RE releases were huge. I assume you saw that re releases. The first one was the. But the first time you saw a Star wars movie.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, my dad showed it to me. This was back in the 80s. He was amazed by it. He was one of the people that went to see Star wars and just could not believe what he was seeing. And he talked about it as if it were a legend. So by the time I get shown it, it's not like, you know, in the way that your parents give you like religion and they tell you all the beautiful amazing things about religion and like why it's important. That's how my dad felt about Star Wars. He felt like that. But Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, all of that stuff, he was just like amazed by it. Now he was not a sci fi guy, so for him it was kind of basically an action movie with like he didn't look at it, but it became really quickly for me a religious experience, like from almost as early as I can remember all the way up for the rest of my life.

[Sean Fennessey]

You make a great point. The way that it has transcended some of the tropes and cliches of classical science fiction. And I feel like when I was a kid there was Star Trek and there was Star wars and Star Trek was science fiction, Star Trek was pointy headed and Star wars was adventure. Star wars was mythology. And it wasn't the same thing. And so I was always a Star wars kid. And as I've gotten older, I've gotten more interested in Star Trek and kind of what Star Trek was really about. And I didn't have anybody put it in front of me when I was a young kid, but I did have my parents at a very young age.

[CR]

It's probably also like a scarcity thing. Like Star Trek is just always on like reruns and stuff when you would get home from school. And then Star wars was major event. The one thing that was funny thinking about opening remarks for this, for this draft is that, so when does Revenge

[Mallory Rubin]

of the Sith come out 2005. And it is the movie that I have seen in movie theaters more than any other film.

[CR]

So I don't think I saw the second two prequels in movie theaters.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, damn.

[CR]

And I think I have spent as much of my Star wars life critiquing it as I have celebrating it. So that is also another element of Star wars. And why the draft is probably really interesting is that from the earliest days of podcasting, Andy and I have been talking about, like, what would Star wars be if it could be perfect? What would you do differently with Star Wars? What should they do with Star wars on tv? How should they reimagine Star Wars? And it's been this, like, thing that even before Force Awakens, we were talking about, and then obviously through the sequels and the TV stuff and all the stop and start iterations of it in movies, it's been a fascinating object of conversation and kind of Monday morning quarterbacking what they're doing with it almost as much as it's been just pure. I love these movies.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And I think that the perception of how much Star wars there is in front of you at any moment in time obviously connects to how you relate to it. Like, if you are an EU fan now, legends, canon fan or something, then like books, right. That was your lifeline to Star wars for a long time. And like, the just absolute desert, the Tatooine esque desert between film releases, like, that was where you would seek out stories. Now you have, have, you know, for many Star wars fans, like, too much Star wars sometimes. It's been a long time since the. The last movie, obviously Rise of Skywalker was 19. It's been like more than half a decade since the film. But there's been a glut of TV shows. Right. And mileage may vary on your relationship to.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is the word. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But, you know, if you're, like, obsessed with Star wars, you can play the video games, you can build Lego helmets, you can read comics, you can read the novels, you can watch all the shows, you can watch the animated shows. Everybody's relationship to it is different. And it can be the most important thing in your life or something where you're like, this is a blockbuster to check it out. And there are a million versions of that in between. I love hearing everybody's like, first exposure to it and what the kind of like, seminal aspect of it was, because, you know, I think for me, with my dad, it was about fandom and it was about science fiction and fantasy, but it was also real, like Joseph Campbell, Hero's Journey exposure too, through Luke, obviously. So there are just so many different gateways. And like, I love now hearing from people. It's fun to hear how you're exposing knocks inside to it. Because the order of how you would choose to introduce somebody to Star wars now is such a fascinating thing. And I think that for our peers, there will be people in 5, 10, 20 years who are like, the first thing I'm gonna show somebody is andor you know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right, yeah, that would be confusing.

[Van Lathan]

But. Yeah, but that's a choice that you could make.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a choice that you could make.

[Van Lathan]

Let's radicalize them.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You know, part of my. Legitimately, part of my development as a human being has been learning to appreciate the prequels, like, not as an art, like as a human being. Because I went through, I've told this story before, such a Herculean effort to see Phantom Menace. I was at Louisiana Tech University. John's car had broken down. His tires weren't fixed. I got John's tires fixed on his car so that we could drive to Monroe and see the movie. This probably cost me $350 or $400. Right. To go and see the movie.

[Amanda Dyer]

Cause I had to see it in 1999.

[Van Lathan]

Also in 1999. And when I get there halfway through the movie, I'm like, yo, this isn't working. I'm looking at scenes. I'm like, yo, are they dead ass right now? It's kind of how I felt when I was in Michael. And so like, by the time I get to the end of the movie, I leave on the high of Duel of the Fates and it feels like the end scene kind of laundered.

[Sean Fennessey]

The rest of the film had the exact same experience.

[CR]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

That was exactly how I felt.

[Van Lathan]

But then later on, when, at the height of the anti prequel movement, who's leading that movement? It was awesome. People with eyes, huge backlash to the prequels, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, sure.

[Van Lathan]

I came to respect and enjoy them not only for what Lucas was attempting to do, but for what he was able to do at the time and for what I feel like was an irrational fan backlash to not being able to play with the same toys from the 70s. And it actually changed the way I view a lot of things, like, period. Because people set out to tell stories that will sometimes challenge you and won't be as accessible as you need them and want them to be. But like, analysis of that stuff to me is like, how much you love it, what can you enjoy from it? And how it deepens the lore and your connection to what it is. And the prequels definitely deepened my connection to Star Wars. They deepened my appreciation for Star wars and they sophisticated Star wars for me a little bit, even if they did that imperfectly.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I had a very similar experience as Amanda was showing my daughter the movies. And I would say to a movie, she's enjoyed every movie. She really threw herself into this and really. But I think I probably saw A New Hope when I was 4 or 5 and I had. We had them on VHS and so like, I. They're very formative for me just in terms of any kind of story and storytelling. And I was voracious about the action figures and begging my parents in Toys R Us to buy me the action figures. And when one was sold out, like trying to figure out ways to order them, somehow begging the cashier at the store, like I was. I had a very obsessive personality even then. And I similarly was kind of heartbroken by Phantom Menace, aside from the Duel of the Fate sequence. But to see that movie with Alys and to see how into Anakin she was and to watch Anakin become her favorite character in these movies is amazing. It is fascinating. And I never could have done that because I was 17 when the Phantom Menace came out and I was 21, 23 when the Revenge of the Sith came out. So I do think it's a lot of when it hits you, when it finds you and what you're open to. And it doesn't change the fact that the CGI is not good in the Phantom Menace at times. But there are other times where like, I don't know, the pod racing sequence is like exciting and fun. Like, it's like if you're a little kid. That's great moviemaking.

[Amanda Dyer]

My 18 month old was in the room for the pod racing sequence and just kept pointing at the TV and going fast, fast, fast, you know, so there is something primal about it that I understand. What you're saying is interesting with your relationship to the prequels because it does feel like Star wars is both the blueprint for fandom or modern fandom as we see it, as we understand it, and also like a living experiment, you know, like in real time of putting you all through these new situations of 20 years without something, and then you get these new things, but it doesn't live up to both what you remembered, but the originals and then everything that you've been filling in and spinning off side to side. And I mean, that certainly was true with the what are we calling the last trilogy?

[Mallory Rubin]

The Sequel Trilogy.

[Amanda Dyer]

The Sequel trilogy, yeah. Where it is funny. And even now with Mandalorian and Grogu, to watch everyone who has had such a deep relationship to these movies that are just giant pieces of corporate entertainment at this point and have been now for 25 years, and be both angry, like, about the corporate decisions, but also so stressed out about the interpersonal connections. And, like, how is Mandalorian and Grogu even gonna be received? And you're on a podcast being like, I will not even, like, go watch it. Because, you know, finally. And then, you know, Sean and I saw 17 minutes of it, the first 17 minutes at CinemaCon. And, you know, I won't spoil too much to say that we watched over it. We watched it, and you leaned over to me and very angrily whispered, why would they put that blank in these places? And your complaint was textual. Your complaint was, you have not honored, like, the sanctity of my memory.

[Mallory Rubin]

So it is.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's a fascinating social experiment that we're all doing in real time.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's just a deeply, deeply, deeply personal piece of art that is also controlled at the highest levels by the biggest cultural entertainment conglomerate in the universe. And so there's an inherent friction. There's a huge emotionality that comes with it. And then there's all this business concern. And then there's also. Because it's been such a transformative act of movie making technologically, it's been also at the vanguard of the way that movies are made is changing for all of the sequels and even for the TV shows. I mean, you can now look back on all these TV shows that Disney made as the kind of key indicator of what happened to this holy union of the way that entertainment operates, where it's like, this is what TV is. This is what movies are. We don't really cross these streams, so to speak, and everything can be comfortable. And then once they started doing that and once the Mandalorian came around, it kind of changed the expectations for what is theatrical, what is a TV show. And now we're kind of like, doubling back.

[CR]

You know, we're unwinding from that.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yes, well, they're trying to, but the number of people who don't understand that the Mandalorian and Grogu is a movie instead of a TV show, then they're gonna have to go somewhere else to see it. It's like, it's a big hurdle for

[Sean Fennessey]

people or they won't go see it.

[Van Lathan]

I will say this. I do think that sometimes, particularly in the Star wars community, we take a lot of larger cultural and artistic issues and make them specifically about Star Wars. Everything has been corporatized. Right. I played and really enjoy playing the Godfather, the video game.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure, I played that too.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, that was a good video game.

[Amanda Dyer]

So what do you do in the video game?

[Van Lathan]

You start off.

[CR]

You start with olive oil, but you

[Van Lathan]

do, though, you start off on your rise as a soldier, and then you move up to be the don.

[Amanda Dyer]

All right.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. And it's a very fun game.

[Sean Fennessey]

What was your. Do you have an Italian don name?

[Van Lathan]

I can't remember.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Like, Don Imbroglio. This game comes.

[Van Lathan]

This game came out in, like, what is it? 0809, something like that.

[Sean Fennessey]

I thought it was even earlier than that.

[Van Lathan]

It might have been earlier than that. But like. So, like. And, you know, then they make a movie on Paramount about the making of the Godfather, which in and of itself is kind of a cash grab to connect you to all of that stuff.

[Amanda Dyer]

I think you'll find that was a TV show, but again, TV show, whatever. Well, I mean, it's.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was called the Offer. I watched every minute.

[Van Lathan]

Right. So, like, what I'm saying is that all of this stuff has been corporatized. I think with Star wars, there's almost specific criticism that people levy at it because of the expectation of the purity of Star Wars.

[CR]

Sure.

[Van Lathan]

The expectation of the feeling that you're supposed to get from the story. The themes of it are about destiny, and they're about family. They're about betrayal. They're about all of these things. And they felt so real. So real and so pure at that time. The question is, should you theme park ride them? And my answer is always the same. If you can do it right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Van Lathan]

If you can do it right, do as much of it as you can. But when you do it wrong, people are gonna have all kinds of reasons about why it's going wrong. And one is gonna be, you then stepped on a product and all of that stuff. But if you can do it right, I'll take as much Star wars as you're willing to give.

[CR]

I'm in a great place. I think you and I will probably discuss andor more in depth on this pilot at some point next month. But I do feel like. Andor gave me in my 40s what Star wars gave me when I was seven. And so like, I'm like anything else after this is honestly a bonus.

[Sean Fennessey]

A better understanding of Marxism or.

[CR]

Well, just like that was everything I ever wanted that I Couldn't articulate was like that adult version of Star wars and that level of complexity and drama and a world building experience was like everything I had ever wanted as an adult. From that. When we were joking about, like, wouldn't it be cool if they set cheers at Mos Eisley? Like, you know, like, they gave Tony Gilroy $600 million and that's what he made. And. And I'll. I mean, so this is like, even with Grogu, all jokes aside, I'm like, I hope it's good, you know, I will see it. I will see it.

[Amanda Dyer]

You're gonna come with us.

[CR]

It's fine.

[Amanda Dyer]

Knox is counting on it.

[Mallory Rubin]

So don't let Don.

[Amanda Dyer]

He also thinks Saquon Barkley is coming, so I'm gonna have to lose it.

[CR]

Like five. You get like five Knoxes counting on it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I start to get suspicious. Are you excited about it?

[Mallory Rubin]

About Mando Grogu? Yeah. I mean, my relationship to, like, any new Star wars releases generally, I will hope desperately that it's good until I have been robbed of every single reason to allow myself to think that, like, I want. I love Grogo.

[Amanda Dyer]

Somehow Palpatine is returned.

[Mallory Rubin]

Somehow Palpatine Returns is one of the low points of my life. I was sitting next to Gone when that happened. I'm like, still, that was a tough one. Yeah. I mean, I think Rise of I. I think that everything you're saying. My relationship to the prequels is similar as well, where, like, I think that Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones are like, terrible movies, but the prequels are very important to me and to my Star wars fandom. And I think Sith is like, just actually, genuinely, unironically great. I think that two of the three sequel movies are very good. Obviously one of those two is quite divisive. I think that Rise of Skywalker is not only a bad movie, but, but a shameful to the, like, where do the corporations get in and meddle too much? A shameful manifestation of fearing your own fan base. Right. And the need. And obviously, like, we've talked about Last Jedi over the years. We don't agree on it. That's fine. I think that, like, a healthy debate about what to do inside of a Star wars movie is, like, totally valid. I think the way that that manifested was unfortunate. And I think that Lucasfilm and Disney feeling that they then had to like, walk back the direction of that sequel in order to like, appease some of the bad faith voices in the fandom to the point where, like, not only do Things in that movie happen that make no sense. If you've been reading books for years and you're all, like, current on Palpatine, cloning, like, whatever, but somehow Palpatine Returns is, like, embarrassing as a story beat and a line of dialogue. And all of it, the lack of, like, confidence to actually follow through on Chewie. All of that having, like you said.

[Sean Fennessey]

I said it as soon as the movie, but it was like an insane.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was like, representative of a certain type of fear that was, like, driving that film. And I think the, like, moment of, oh, you know, like, lightsaber should be like, the weapon of a Jedi, should be tweeted, treated with more respect, is just a sub tweet at the prior film in a way that I think is, like, deeply lamentable. When Star wars is in that place, you can't operate with confidence. I mean, the reason that Andor is so great is because it's an excellent, assured piece of storytelling, but also because it was, like, created from a place of intention. You can look at Andor and say, new Hope. Then we go to Rogue One and then we go to Andor. And if you want to broaden even further, you can say Rebels takes place in parallel. If you're interested in the animated verse. That's a lot of expanded world building and storytelling. That's not like, oh, you can't keep going back to the same well in Star Wars. It's like, you have to do it well. So Mandu Mando Grogu. Like, I think that the question of should that be season four of a TV show or a movie is completely valid. And certainly the trailers, which, like, I found very exciting, because I think that Grogu is one of the only pure and good things in the last, like, 10 years of being alive. I just think Grogu is iconic and I love him, and he makes me really happy. I like the end, Zelens. I like dinner. I've. I thought seasons one and two of Mando were, like, really excellent. And season three was very uneven. Sometimes good, often bad. I don't know if that should be a show or a movie, but, like, if it's a movie and it's good, I don't know that we'll care if it was a movie or a show. We'll care that it was good.

[Sean Fennessey]

So what do you think?

[Van Lathan]

So, last thing I'll say, I know we got to get into the draft a couple of things. Number one, there is a lot of times we talk about corporate failures, and there certainly have been Corporate failures from Disney. But these things, to me, to the degree that things are corporatized, it's when story and narrative power fails andor a lot of money made by a corporation, that's one guy that they said, hey, go do your story. Right. When we go back and look at even the intention of or the construction of the sequel trilogy. Three directors on three different movies, couple got fired. Couple got fired. But like three different. That doesn't make any sense, right? Like that's not the way typically these movies have been made. These movies have been made with a sense of a three story arc. You're trying to get to something at the end and you're doing that. You're committed to that. For all of the people who were sickened and disgusting, disgusted by Jedi turning Luke Skywalker into a coward, that's not

[Mallory Rubin]

what happened in that movie.

[Van Lathan]

That's exactly what happened by Jedi turning

[Amanda Dyer]

Luke Skywalker turning into. But whatever.

[Van Lathan]

Like turning Skywalker into a coward. Like, the reality is, if turning Skywalker into a coward is the way that you get to some sublime emotionally and narratively brilliant conclusion in the third movie, great. But if that gets you to somehow Palpatine has returned. I gotta ask why my favorite white boy threw his lightsaber away. And that is what leaves you hollow.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is revisionist history. Because I agree obviously about.

[Sean Fennessey]

This can't be the Last Jedi podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, of course, but you were saying that after Last Jedi, not after Rise of Skywalker.

[Van Lathan]

Saying what?

[Mallory Rubin]

Those complaints about Last Jedi were in real time. They weren't a result of Rise of Sky.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no. Last thing I said. But that's not what.

[Sean Fennessey]

Somehow I Just real. Just real quick.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, that's not what I mean. What I mean is that the movie. It's that decision, that storytelling decision could have been made whole if it was going someplace that even though we disagree

[Sean Fennessey]

about the Last Jedi, it still was a failure in that respect because there was no follow through on whatever storytelling decisions were made by the Last Jedi. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Amanda Dyer]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. So Luke Skywalker is your favorite white boy ever?

[Van Lathan]

Of all the white boys of any white boy ever. Luke Skywalker and then Ryan Gosling from Drive Close number two get on that level.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Where do CR and Sean rank?

[Van Lathan]

I mean, these are my white boys.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, so, like that.

[Van Lathan]

That don't count. You know what I'm saying?

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow. Well, we're gonna get Ryan Gosling very soon. In a Star wars movie.

[Van Lathan]

He killed it in that one. Didn't say shit. Just Drove and fucked people up. I love it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Somehow I don't think that's gonna be the energy he brings to Starfighter. Based on his past few films and Shawn Levy's oeuvre. We gotta draft movies. And obviously there are only 11 of these movies. And as we've noted, some of them are quite bad. And that's so weird for something to be so special to so many people and also to be almost evenly divided between the good and the bad. Close to. So with that in mind, I've devised a slightly new kind of draft for us. Different kinds of categories than we've done before.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I'm hopeful that you guys possibly

[CR]

more strategic in a lot of ways.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think so.

[Mallory Rubin]

So just to clarify, then, the animated theatrical release clone wars from 08 is not eligible? Just the 11 live action.

[Sean Fennessey]

To have a discussion about it. I've not seen the film.

[CR]

I haven't seen it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would consider it. Sorry.

[Amanda Dyer]

I was honestly ranking my favorite white boys.

[Van Lathan]

Who's number one?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a whole other episode. I don't. You know.

[Amanda Dyer]

Well, I mean, I was gonna ask where Ben Affleck is on your list.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, boy. Batfleck is up there. But I count Biz.

[Amanda Dyer]

What about adrock?

[Van Lathan]

Come on, man. Let's not. Let's talk about. I mean, shout out to them, but, like. Nah, they're not out. They're not up there.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay. All right.

[Van Lathan]

Shout out to them. But we're not. You know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, I put Chipper Jones above, you know. Look, I know there's some problematic what just happened, like, But. But I used to fuck with Chipper Jones.

[CR]

What does that mean?

[Van Lathan]

Hey, look.

[Sean Fennessey]

Chipper Jones over the Beastie Boys.

[CR]

That's fucking bullshit.

[Van Lathan]

I don't fuck with the Beastie Boys like that. I love Paul's, like, I love all of that stuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

We have to delete the episode. I really was excited about this draft

[Van Lathan]

for me coming up. I watched. I had a. I know Chipper is who Chipper is.

[CR]

So you fucking don't like Last Jedi and you like Chipper Jones?

[Van Lathan]

Chipper Jones was the baddest motherfucker at third base for a long time for my favorite team. Like some of the. It's diminishing returns, man.

[Sean Fennessey]

As always, I'm glad you're here, but what the fuck?

[Van Lathan]

I'm just being for real, man.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, here are the categories that we're gonna be drafting from. Seven categories for five drafters. That's gonna be 35 draft picks. The categories are as follows. Movie. This is very Simple.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You draft a movie. A Star 11 movie.

[CR]

One of those or 12 films.

[Sean Fennessey]

One of 11 or 12 films.

[Amanda Dyer]

Wait, so what is the 12th one?

[Mallory Rubin]

So the Clone wars, which is an animated film, but it was a theatrical release.

[Sean Fennessey]

It made $80 million.

[Mallory Rubin]

In theory, it should. It could be. You're right.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's an old movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is the installment of what became a more than decade long running animated series, which I will say to you once again, especially if Alice has said Anakin Skywalker is my favorite character. You simply must watch the Clone Wars. Now, the movie, pretty bad.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm trying to limit the screen time here. So the idea of like an 80 episode animated series is a lot.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's more than 80 episodes. The clone wars and Rebels are both wonderful. Rebels is I think one of the best Star wars products, period, ever. I really would recommend it. The movie, the Clone wars movie is pretty bad. The television show is really good. The movie's pretty bad. However, Radha the Hutt, Jabba's son, known by Stinky in that movie, is of course a character in Mando Grogu, voiced by Jeremy Allen White. So you could consider it homework.

[CR]

Is he just voiced or is he doing any circus stuff?

[Mallory Rubin]

You think he's out there in the

[CR]

circus stuff where he's like, I hope on set.

[Sean Fennessey]

I hope so. Maybe we'll find out with one of those behind the scenes mocap videos where he's got a tennis ball on his head.

[CR]

He's like smoking. He's just like, I'm trying to get Rod his head.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Does he sing any brief songs in the film?

[Amanda Dyer]

I honestly feel like the number of. I personally in my little screed. I'm just doing that meme with all the numbers and like trying to understand what's happening is already at like 15.

[CR]

We're helping each other out, but we're also.

[Amanda Dyer]

I've already googled what is the chronological order of all the Star wars properties? Chronicological. So. And now I'm reading a Reddit page and I'm reading about Attack of the Clones, which I was conflating with Clone. It's fine. I did do homework for this. I prepared my own version.

[CR]

She and I chatted last night. Yeah, we're talking.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sounds like it was a good talk. Okay, second category after movie. This is movie you've been cursed with.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can you explain this one to us?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. You will be drafting a movie for someone else and you will be cursing them with that movie. For example, we know that Van does not like the Last Jedi coming around to It.

[Van Lathan]

But no, it's too late.

[Amanda Dyer]

You don't like the Last Jedi, and you do like Chipper Jones.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's done now.

[Amanda Dyer]

Canons.

[Sean Fennessey]

Now, there's two ways to think about it.

[CR]

You guys better put that a little bit. The lower third for Van.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, I'll.

[CR]

Jones.

[Sean Fennessey]

Chipper Jones. Don't forget, you exist alongside Van's favorite white boys. With Chipper Jones, you're in league with him, as am I. So this is complicated for us.

[CR]

I mean, like, it's a big tribe, the white boys. You know what I mean? There could be different sides of the aisle there.

[Sean Fennessey]

And you say growing stronger every day.

[Amanda Dyer]

Luke Skywalker being number one is not really a list you want to be on, in my opinion.

[Van Lathan]

Real 3 career batting average.468 home runs.

[Sean Fennessey]

Please, no more.

[CR]

That's cursed. They're saying, hey, I know you don't like this.

[Sean Fennessey]

We all agree this movie isn't good, and you're cursed with it.

[Mallory Rubin]

So you're not selecting the film, but the person to give it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Now, you can only give it to, like, there's only one pick per person. So if Amanda gives me a movie and I give Mal a movie, you know, me and Mal. Can't you clarify, though?

[CR]

Movies can be drafted again in cursed.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, there's only 11 movies available, period, because there's only two pure movie categories.

[Mallory Rubin]

So the movies category will be good movies that we like. The movie you're cursed with is. We are assigning, we think is either overall the worst movie or the one that is most personally galling to the person we're giving it. So, like, we could to just stick with the animated example. Chris famously hates animation. Could give Chris Clone wars because he despises animation and doesn't think it's a viable art form, even though it's an.

[Sean Fennessey]

You absolutely could do that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay, but it's not eligible.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll say it is eligible. Why not?

[Mallory Rubin]

Which is.

[Amanda Dyer]

I mean, now there are two movies ahead.

[Mallory Rubin]

It also just. It brings Ahsoka into the character set. So I think that is meaningful.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just throw that out there.

[Amanda Dyer]

Ahsoka throwing it out there.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, you're right.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's more meaningful of an inclusion.

[Van Lathan]

That's.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's.

[Amanda Dyer]

Well, sorry, how was I supposed to

[Van Lathan]

know how it was spelled?

[Sean Fennessey]

No one at home can see what you see.

[CR]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

The third category is Skywalker family member.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay, so we were talking about this before you got here because you, Sean Fennesee, the architect of this demented game,

[CR]

the architect from the Matrix, have been

[Amanda Dyer]

dealing out Inconsistent information. And you and I had a long chat in the press box at Cinemacon about who was and was not a Skywalker. And you were doing. You were being a little bloodline about it. You were saying, no one. By marriage.

[Sean Fennessey]

No one. That's absolutely not true. That did not happen.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah, see, now he's angry.

[CR]

Just because season three, you just completely lied.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, that did not happen. In fact, I just talked to Mallory about this yesterday.

[Amanda Dyer]

That's fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

You said in the press box sitting next to it, should we be picturing you guys?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know what you're talking about because I did not say that.

[Amanda Dyer]

I was literally naming people and you were like, no, that's not a Skywalker. It's fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm envisioning the two of you like. Like Palpatine and Anakin in the opera box. And like the evil head turn, like.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

No. Any marriage is eligible. Children are eligible.

[Amanda Dyer]

Well, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

So bloodline marriage. And you could get creative. Okay.

[CR]

Was there a press.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's a press area.

[CR]

I like the idea of you, like, tapping away on your.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is what it is. It is hundreds of people with their laptops open.

[CR]

Pam.

[Sean Fennessey]

People are straight up in the cms typing out their pieces.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did Darth Plagueis the Wise come up at all when you two were talking?

[Van Lathan]

No way.

[Amanda Dyer]

Right? Well, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, look at this collaboration.

[Amanda Dyer]

Allegedly. Yes. This person is because they're married. In. By marriage. So there you go.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is fascinating. They're working together. Van is helping Amanda and I'm helping. That could come into the call.

[Van Lathan]

You wouldn't call Lars a Skywalker.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nope. Well, but.

[Amanda Dyer]

But by marriage. By marriage.

[Mallory Rubin]

He would. That. Yeah. Lee. Lars would be eligible as me, his husband. That's what. That's.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, that's true. You would ever trust.

[CR]

But is that Owen?

[Mallory Rubin]

Owen is Kleeg.

[Van Lathan]

Is his dad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Kleeg married Shmee.

[CR]

Where's he at?

[Mallory Rubin]

And then Owen.

[CR]

Is that Joel Edgerton?

[Mallory Rubin]

Owen is Joel Egerton.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Klig is the guy. Remember, he's in. Come to him. It's like he married.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[CR]

It doesn't matter. I'm not gonna drag him.

[Sean Fennessey]

We don't really need to worry about Horace.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think it's the deepest category. You never know.

[Van Lathan]

I was about to get into a whole patriarchy type thing. Like, if you marry, who can marry into somebody's family, you know?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Would you let Chipper Jones marry into your family?

[Mallory Rubin]

I would just say Star wars is in many ways about found and we should have A pretty broad interpretation of what family is. Just my opinion.

[CR]

And it's Thanksgiving.

[Van Lathan]

Fully decked out in real tree.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. The fourth category is hero or villain.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have a question.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, God. Shoot.

[Mallory Rubin]

So a character can only be drafted in one category?

[CR]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. Of course. Characters are eligible in more than one category. So if a character is taken in Skywalker, they cannot also be taken in Hero.

[Amanda Dyer]

Villain.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why are hero and villain together instead of being two separate categories?

[Sean Fennessey]

Because that's what I wanted to do.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Damn.

[Mallory Rubin]

A lot of characters in Star wars. We could have gone even.

[Amanda Dyer]

Really fun.

[Mallory Rubin]

Could have been here all day. Could have been here all day.

[Sean Fennessey]

So far, going great. The fifth category is vehicle.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Chris just looked at his watch.

[CR]

No, I was just curious where we

[Van Lathan]

were at.97% of the vote, though, by first ballot, hall of Famers, 97%

[Sean Fennessey]

vehicle. Good to know. We'll be editing you entirely out of this episode. I just want you to know vehicle can be anything. It can be an individual vehicle that one character is known for flying or driving.

[CR]

It can be a star vehicle for an actor who appeared in a film.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, that's not eligible. It can be various military vehicles that we know about from the Empire or the Rebellion.

[CR]

This is one where I was like, no problem, I got this.

[Sean Fennessey]

The next category is problematic character.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, in what regard?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, well, I would like to leave this open to interpretation. To me, I feel like you can read a lot of characters that are beloved as problematic, and you can read a lot of problematic characters as beloved. It's. One of the interesting things about this series is that it is obsessed with cultural heritage, but not specifically race in the way that we think about it. And it's come under some fire over the years. And then there's other characters where I'm like, why is that not a problem? Okay, we can explore that here, sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

But so, okay, so then it could be the more overtly like, way we think about this as problematic, but. So we're not talking, like, problematic fave. This is a character for derision and ridicule.

[Amanda Dyer]

You just have to make the case when you.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think if you're like, I'm horny for Kylo Ren, that can be your pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

Established facts are ringer punk.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cultural problematism is what we're discussing here.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jar Jar's already been invoked. Jar Jar, a historically problematic movie character.

[Mallory Rubin]

But you could go the Kylo route or another character like, okay, you gotta

[Sean Fennessey]

make a good case for it. I think it will make for an entertaining category.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Last category is Wild Card, which is literally any cool thing about Star Wars. Anything, Anything. Could be an object, could be a person, could be. If you want it to be a TV show, it could be that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. Oh, whoa.

[Sean Fennessey]

You could do anything now. You can't. There's no addressing TV shows otherwise throughout the other six categories.

[CR]

Although Rogue One will have some of our favorite characters.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

And so then because some of those characters appear on TV shows, you will be able to claim them because they

[CR]

appear in Rogue and Mandalorian Grogu counts. Doesn't count. Doesn't count.

[Sean Fennessey]

We haven't seen it yet, so I feel like it's not. We shouldn't make it eligible yet.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, so, like, the Razor Crest ship is not eligible in vehicle, because that's just been in trailer so far. And the television show.

[Van Lathan]

Nothing from the. Okay, cool. Interesting. Nothing from the TV shows is eligible in this draft.

[CR]

Yeah, it's the movie's draft.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's gotta come from the movies. Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Cool.

[Van Lathan]

Art, something. What else?

[Sean Fennessey]

Does that make sense?

[Van Lathan]

Yep.

[Sean Fennessey]

Of course there are. Of course, many of the canonical characters have appeared in both film and television.

[Van Lathan]

Of course, a lot of them, but

[Sean Fennessey]

not all of them.

[Van Lathan]

Not all of them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

But you've just found a loophole for Ahsoka Tano, so that's good for you.

[CR]

And now, if you come in last place in the voting.

[Sean Fennessey]

What's that?

[CR]

If you come in last place in the voting, do you promise now, in front of everyone, to do the entire Odyssey pot as Jar Jar?

[Sean Fennessey]

Just checking in. How many more Jar Jar jokes do you have? I would say I honestly don't know if draft order is crucial here. Is it crucial?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think so.

[Amanda Dyer]

I don't.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know.

[Amanda Dyer]

We know that you think so.

[Van Lathan]

I'm here for the vibes.

[CR]

You could think so, but I think you also have a very specific view

[Mallory Rubin]

of, I personally think, having a top three pick. Yeah, well, I think having a top three pick would be meaningful, but I think it's such a deep set of. Of candidates in many of these categories that, like, no one's fucked, no matter where they end up. And obviously coming around quicker on the turn is, I think, very beneficial in this draft. So you could probably make your piece no matter what.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, Jack Sanders, we need the draft order. Van, what the fuck are you doing, man? Chipper Jones, Are you kidding me? That's right. We're laying on the ground. Understand what's dying, and you're kicking us while we're down.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, Chipper, was the man the he was not one of the best high school players of all time as well.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is look shameful. Drafting first is Sean.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[CR]

You know, it's been a while, though. I think it's been a while.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nice to hear. It's nice to hear that.

[Mallory Rubin]

That home cook in here's coming up

[Sean Fennessey]

fantasy this week, so.

[CR]

Nice.

[Sean Fennessey]

Drafting second is Mallory.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, I feel fine now. Interesting. I feel pretty good.

[Sean Fennessey]

Drafting third is Van.

[Van Lathan]

Nice.

[CR]

Kind of where Chipper Jones used to bat, right?

[Van Lathan]

Third, hot corner. He played third.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fourth, Amanda. And fifth, Chris Ryan.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. How do you feel about that?

[CR]

We'll see.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think I know what you're gonna do at five, actually. I feel happy for you. I actually think this board worked out well, probably for what every individual person wants to do.

[CR]

Then it's gonna be boring.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can you repeat the draft order so I can remember it. It Sean first, Mal second, Van third, Amanda fourth, Chris fifth. I'll put it up on the tv and it's in the dock as well. Okay. That's exciting. Gosh.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sheesh.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like 1 and 2 are both extremely strong positions.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree. I actually think the top three is really good.

[Sean Fennessey]

The top three? Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. Yes.

[Van Lathan]

I feel like there has. I feel like there's a clear order in the top three.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree.

[CR]

That's interesting.

[Mallory Rubin]

When we get through the top three picks, we'll see if we're thinking the same thing, but I suspect we are.

[Sean Fennessey]

There could be chaotic moves made early on.

[Van Lathan]

There could be chaotic moves as well. It's a draft. There's always some chaos.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think chalk is Empire Strikes Back as the first overall pick, which is one of the greatest movies ever made. Is the greatest sequel ever made, not

[CR]

the greatest sequel ever made.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's better than Godfather II, in my opinion.

[Amanda Dyer]

What is with you and Godfather 2?

[Sean Fennessey]

It's got some flaws.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah? What are they?

[Sean Fennessey]

There's a three and a half hour podcast where I illuminated some of them.

[Amanda Dyer]

I prefer to re listen to jfk.

[Sean Fennessey]

I really love it. I think it's a great film. But I like the Empire Strikes Back more. And it hit me at a different time in my life, and I think it's amazing that it turned out the way that it did because it wasn't as fully conceived as we like to think it was. The more you read about it, the more you realize that while Lucas had an idea for a trilogy, he had not really mapped out where that movie was going to go. And that very smart decision to make the movie darker to give it a bummer ending to, I think, center Han in the way that he did in the movie solo. I think it's an incredible feat of movie storytelling, and it's my favorite Star wars movie. I would say A New Hope is right behind it, you know, like, it's right up there. But Empire Strikes Back in movie, which I think is fairly straightforward. Would others have gone in a different direction?

[Mallory Rubin]

I would not have gone in a different direction. I would have done that same thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

You would have gone in a different direction?

[CR]

I would have gone new. Hopefully

[Mallory Rubin]

this is gonna work out well for you, because I know what you would have done at number one, and you're gonna get to do it at three, because I am taking A New Hope. And Van will be taking Darth Vader because those were clearly his top three picks in some order, I think. No question. But at the end of the day, I think that the character fields, all of them, are just much deeper and stronger than the movie field. Again, kind of like a little bit of an irony inside of Star wars, where the quality is most limited in the films themselves, and then there are all of these iconic people and things and ideas inside of them. Empire, also my favorite Star wars movie. I would have taken it at 1, but I'm thrilled to have New Hope at 2. Like, it's a coin flip between those two. Two of the most iconic and important movies ever made. And A New Hope changed movies. It changed genre films, but it changed movies, and it changed movie history. And it is one of the most seminal and foundational installments in the history of story. I think that its connection to this larger tapestry, again, whether it's, like, the hero's journey or something, like, how did Frank Herbert's Dune inspire George Lucas? And now you look at the Dune movies, and there's this new generation of filmgoers who are like, wow, that's a lot like Star Wars. And then you get people to discover the actual connected nature of these things across time. It's just inextricable from the history of story and movies. If you made me pick. Even though A New Hope is not my favorite, Empire is. If you made me pick my. My single favorite moment in Star wars history. I'm, like, gonna cry. It's binary sunsets. There's just nothing like it. It's like, this is how we get misty skies.

[Sean Fennessey]

We have a tissue in the back.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the best. So I just. It's.

[Van Lathan]

Chris is gonna throw.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm thrilled, and I'm happy the Van

[CR]

gets to Take the van Chipper.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Would you have done Vader at one?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Without a doubt.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, so the question is, what category? Because you can draft him in Skywalker family, or you can draft him in hero or villain.

[Van Lathan]

See, this is what I always get fucked up in drafts. I'm going to take him in hero or villain.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I should have probably taken him in Skywalker family. I'm gonna take him a hero or villain.

[Sean Fennessey]

Now that category gets a little slimmer, boy.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, yeah, I'm gonna take him hero or villain. I want to thin that out a little bit. I think that this is. It's difficult to talk about how iconic the character is. One of the most iconic characters in American and world cultural history. And interesting when you first see this is, to me, a gauge of how Star wars was when it was creatively pure and kicking throughout the three movies. You got more Darth Vader, but as you got more Darth Vader, the character got deeper and better. So the idea that, like, the more Star wars you get, the more it's watered down is directly refuted by the character arc to me of Vader that the entire thing is oriented around. You get a little bit of him, you get more of them. You learn that he has this cosmic tragedy that he looks at his son for redemption for, and then at the end, he gets that redemption. So you get more of Vader and it gets better. That, to me, is Star Wars. He is synonymous with villain, with evil, but he is also synonymous with twisted good. He's the breathe, the breathing, the moving, the lights, everything cool ass motherfucker that your heart goes out to. Like, to me, there's. I can't think really of a character that is superior to him in culture, period, as far as mythology is concerned.

[Sean Fennessey]

How much of this pick is a pick for Anakin as it is a pick for Darth Vader?

[CR]

Does this pick take Anakin off the board?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, it does. Yeah, it does. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Has to.

[Sean Fennessey]

Anakin is a whole other. He's the same person.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

You know what's funny is he is a whole other character, but in a way he's not. He is a whole other character. But the darkness that manifests itself, that has always existed inside of Anakin Skywalker is this idea that we all have that thing that if someone sees it and decides to pull us out of it, to pull it out of us, should I say that we can become that? So Darth Vader is as much a part of Anakin's nature as he's Genociding sand people. Right. Like, as he's doing all the stuff that he does, it's just as much a part of him as the goodness that's a part of him. The selflessness that's a part of him.

[Mallory Rubin]

The women and the children, too.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So, like, to me, these guys are, like, one and the same. And the movie is about how someone can see you and take advantage of you and use you, use your power to their end.

[Mallory Rubin]

George Lucas has said, like, many times, Star wars is. If it had to be distilled to one thing. It's the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. You can't say Anakin and Vader are separate people. You just can't.

[Sean Fennessey]

So whenever I'm having a bad day, they just open up YouTube and I look at the sequence at the end of Rogue One when Vader is annihilating Rebels.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fucking awesome.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it's like, we've discussed this multiple times on pods before. It's like, it's the one time, really, the one time when I got the very small feeling of childhood Star wars enjoyment of, like, I'm six, and this is exactly what it was like or what I wanted to see when he's, you know, using the Force to raise people to the roof of the corridor there. And it's interesting that, like, they gave us just a little.

[Mallory Rubin]

Little.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just a tiny taste of that over the last 10 years now. He did show up on the fucking whatever TV show. Was it Obi Wan Kenobi?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, he's in all the shows a lot. I mean, he's still rich. I mean, Anakin is the main character of the Clone wars show. And Obi Wan and Ahsoka are also

[Sean Fennessey]

the main character, but not theatrical movie. Darth Vader.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Vader is in Rebels. You're gonna get that childhood feeling of wonder when you watch Ahsoka and Vader duel in the season two finale of Rebels. Twilight of the Apprentice, and that mask cracks and you see Anakin's eye, and he says, something to look forward to.

[Amanda Dyer]

You know, we have so little left in this life. Four Beatles movies in that, so that's tough.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know If I have 200 episodes of animated Star Wars.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're in front of me.

[Van Lathan]

Rebels is fantastic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Rebels is great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Excellent and interesting pick for the future of this game. Okay, so, Amanda, you're fourth.

[Amanda Dyer]

I've been spending this entire time deciding whether I want to do this to Chris, and I kind of have to.

[CR]

Damn interesting.

[Amanda Dyer]

And I'm really. And I know.

[CR]

Well, well, honestly, it'll open up the floodgates.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it is the correct.

[Amanda Dyer]

But, like, I want you to know that you're my friend and that you were.

[CR]

I think that when you think about, like, your blank check appearance.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[CR]

Like your last couple of months of

[Amanda Dyer]

podcasting, what happened on the blank check,

[CR]

the groundwork to do what I think you're about to do.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah, that's true. Okay. Blank check was recorded many months ago. So I remember. I was like, did I make fun of Chris?

[CR]

This is also my guy.

[Amanda Dyer]

It is your guy. But I do have to, in Skywalker, take Skywalker by marriage. Han Solo, who is just a very hot, charismatic man and is my entry point into what is exciting about Star Wars. And it's very funny watching it with a small child who is way more into Luke and even Leia. And I keep being like, but what about that guy? Are you interested in Han Solo? Look at him. He's swashbuckling. He's doing fun. Oh, you don't like. You don't like Han. He's not a Solo. Yeah, but.

[Van Lathan]

But I think him being in the Skywalker category by marriage, I think you

[Mallory Rubin]

two did the categories in the opposite way. I would have taken Vader in Skywalker, and I would have taken Han in Hero, but it doesn't. I mean, at the end of the day, Han Solo.

[Amanda Dyer]

I'm playing by the rules.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're playing by the rules.

[Amanda Dyer]

Exactly. He just yelled at me about that.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're playing by rules.

[Amanda Dyer]

And, you know, he did the nostril flare and everything.

[Sean Fennessey]

Don't lie. Don't lie on the lie. It's that simple. Don't lie.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's fine that you don't remember any conversation we've ever had, but you can't turn it on me.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is an incredibly strong machine right

[Amanda Dyer]

here, except when it comes to social interactions with other people. That's fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

I never doubted that Amanda would be selecting Han Solo in the first round. And frankly, I thought if Amanda got the first pick, she would have taken Han Solo there.

[Amanda Dyer]

I don't know whether I.

[Mallory Rubin]

The one question Adam asked me before is, what will you do? Depending on how the board falls, if Amanda gets hot and before you. And I said, I am prepared for that. We are the two greatest.

[Van Lathan]

So it goes before Luke Skywalker.

[Amanda Dyer]

Harrison Ford enthusiast, thousand percent Luke Skywalker.

[CR]

He never slips.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[CR]

He never fucks up.

[Amanda Dyer]

Skywalker is, like, kind of whiny and also, you know, has the burden of expectation. He has the burden of the name Han. Sol is just there to have a good time and, you know, fall in love with Leia. Listen, I love you. I know like a plus. It taught a whole generation of women to not their boyfriend much for men. But also, you know, when the. When the going, you're gonna get like half an admission of emotion.

[Van Lathan]

You know what? Let's beat down this Lilith Fair oriented narrative around Solo right now. You know why she appreciated it? Why? Because she knew that that took a lot.

[Amanda Dyer]

Leia.

[Van Lathan]

Leia. Okay. Because she was like. Because she knew how much it took for him in that moment to connect with that. That was Han giving his best at that time, which we used to be able to do for one another, you know?

[Amanda Dyer]

I agree. But he also didn't have to say too much, which I really appreciate. You don't want to say too much ever.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did the movie Solo, which is a part of this draft.

[Sean Fennessey]

It sure is.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dilute Han as a character.

[Amanda Dyer]

I wasn't as mad as everybody else about that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Same hashtag, makesolo2happen.

[CR]

I went back and watched it again, and it's not Alden's fault.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, well, no, I agree with that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nobody other than Harrison should be asked. It's not his follow.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I agree, it's not his fault.

[CR]

It's a really bad.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's an incredible bungle in a million directions. Totally. It's way off the firing Lord Miller, which is. We now see in the light of project Hail Mary's day, what an absolute nightmare decision that was. Not letting those guys try to figure out a new tone for Star wars, which could have set up an entirely interesting new future. Getting scared of the tone that they were going for there was horrible. Alden's fine. I like him a lot as an actor, but the movie is just as. I. I think I wrote a column about it when the movie came out, I was like, this movie's not special. There's nothing exciting about telling this story. And it's the same vibes that I'm getting from Mando right now.

[CR]

The most, like, hold your breath moment of Solo is him playing cards with Lando. You're like, oh, shit. This is like. Like dog lover's really going for it here. And. But like all the action sequences. The train robbery is okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sounds like we can curse Shawn with Solo. That's what's.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, I don't think it's the worst Star wars movie. I just think it's kind of a nothing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Has anyone ever told you you have some Dryden Voss vibes?

[CR]

Oh, is that Paul Barry the drafts

[Sean Fennessey]

bring that out in me.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great pleasure yacht, though. First light.

[Amanda Dyer]

Oh, Bettany. Oh. I mean, there could be worse things to be compared to.

[Van Lathan]

He was the man in that movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not a bad villain.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah, he worked pretty good villain anyway. Han Solo. I'm sorry, Chris.

[Sean Fennessey]

Great pick.

[CR]

That's okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cr. Those are the. I would say those are the big four in this draft.

[CR]

Skywalker family. I'm gonna take Luke Skywalker, who, while he goes up and down over the course of the sequels, I would say for those first three films and especially some of the shit he pulls in Return of the Jedi, he was just my guy, you know, doing the backflip off of the. The prison barge.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[CR]

That's your first example of what he does. That's cool.

[Amanda Dyer]

Iconic.

[CR]

Killed his dad, too. That was sick. But no, Luke Skywalker is like. He and Han are the ways in for Star wars, and I think are ultimately, like, the kind of missing pieces of the prequel for me. I never really got into Hayden Christensen. Also, like, you kind of know where that's going. And Han Solo is, like, the cool factor that I think the prequels missed for me. Like, that kind of like, get a load of all this shit attitude. I don't know why I'm talking about Han Solo. Clearly mad that I didn't get to draft him. But it is the root of all the mythological stuff that I think attracts people to Star wars across generations. And it's just like a kid from nowhere becoming the most important thing in the universe. It's like this really powerful dream, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And when you say from nowhere, you mean hidden in his father's home? Still drives me crazy that they made that choice.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just very quick sidebar. Whenever I'm playing Star wars with my daughter, she's always like, be this person. And then there's a line that you go to to be that person. So whenever she's like, be Luke Skywalker, I always say, I'm Luke Skywalker. I'm here to rescue you. Like, there's like, some.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, okay. Give us a little. Give us a little Tashi Station. Little power converter.

[Sean Fennessey]

Power converters, yeah. Power converters.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. That's not true for Han.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you think is the, like, go to Han line?

[CR]

Boring conversation.

[Mallory Rubin]

Anyway, I like that one. You, like. Almost can't pick. There are so many.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, that was why I asked the question, so you could pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh. But I mean, it's like, God, every Han moment is iconic.

[Sean Fennessey]

I never know what to say when she's fully worshipful on this, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could use a kiss. I do think I Love youe. I know. Is very, very hot. High on the list. Never tell me the odds. Obviously, I caught.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a good one. I like that one.

[Mallory Rubin]

Perhaps counterintuitively, some. Some of the subtler Han moments are actually the best ones, especially on a rewatch. Like, you know, Luke training with the training remote and Han challenging Obi Wan heading into that, you know, first step into a larger world moment, which is also iconic.

[Van Lathan]

Like, that's the quintessential Han line to me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Van Lathan]

That Han mom, also hokey religions is not going to be a good blast. That is his mantra.

[Mallory Rubin]

And you just understand his worldview from that moment so clearly. And then, of course, when you build toward, like, something like in. In Force Awakens, he's like, that's not how the Force works. You feel like you have just lived an entire life with this person. That's fandom at its best, I think

[CR]

Poke Religions was my yearbook quote.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you.

[CR]

Really good. But you know.

[Van Lathan]

You know what my favorite moment from Han ever is, though? That, to me, told me about the

[CR]

character when I was a Luke, we just immediately started talking about.

[Van Lathan]

So I. I love Luke Skywalker. But my. My favorite Han moment is actually the moment where Luke feigns that he has incestual love for his sister. And Han feigns.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a very generous interpretation.

[Van Lathan]

That's the way I look at it now.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

The Proto Targaryens, let's be real.

[Van Lathan]

And Han right away starts fucking with him, like, right away starts poking holes in the peacocking just right away. I don't know, maybe a guy. And he's not serious about it at all. He's just fucking with the kid. Han Solo. Han Solo, perfect. And that's kind of what Star wars was for me at the first.

[CR]

So

[Mallory Rubin]

you know what you're gonna do here?

[CR]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You have to do it.

[CR]

I'm gonna take Rogue One.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Of course.

[CR]

A movie that's probably, like, got two things going forward and against it. One, Shawn's point about the Darth Vader scene at the end. I don't think I remembered a single thing about Rogue One other than that, because it was so intense that I had, like, a blackout because of how I felt at the very end of that film. And then andor coming along and expanding it and giving so much of Rogue One, like, a resonance and a meaning that it maybe didn't have on first viewing, but watching Rogue One after Andor we did A pod about that. I thought it really deepened my experience. And Rogue One is just the best version of the Disney Star wars experiment so far, I think, in terms of on big screen. To me, I think that despite a lot of MacGuffins and planet hopping, it still has a through line that I really attach myself to. It's got a great villain, it's got incredible set pieces and I think is gonna age very well. So I'll go Rogue One in movies.

[Mallory Rubin]

Scarif's sequence still just looks astonishing. That kind of crystalline water. Ugh. Gorgeous.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I think it's also underrated. It's got Ben Mendelssohn and Mads Mikkelsen and it's got great actors and great parts.

[Mallory Rubin]

Krennic Rul.

[CR]

Donnie Yen.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah. Donnie Yen. Yeah. It's really slick. It's more grown up. It's the most grown up of the movies. And I actually did watch it with Alice and while we were watching it, I was like, this is a war movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a real trench warfare movie. And there's some great spy stuff and there's some fun Star wars lore components of it, but it is a really down and dirty bomb them out of their hole kind of.

[Mallory Rubin]

And even just the ideas and the conversations are so mature and nuanced. You know, Cassian, like, now it's real for you is one of, I think, the great subtle challenges character to character in Star wars history. This is a draft. I think it's been a super great celebration so far. I'm curious, do you guys think we should try to tear Chris down a little bit and put on the record that he has come out in support of CGI Tarkin, what do you think?

[CR]

Oh, I don't mind that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[CR]

Of all the great crimes committed against humanity in the last 15 years, either CGI Tarkin.

[Sean Fennessey]

Peter Cushing would have been into it.

[CR]

No, I mean, if they had to cut the check.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Did they. Did the Cushing fam get paid for that?

[CR]

British people in general.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who is Grand Moff Tarkin?

[Van Lathan]

That is so fucking. She's killing me over here.

[Mallory Rubin]

I just.

[Amanda Dyer]

CGI target.

[Van Lathan]

Every time we say something, I look over here.

[Amanda Dyer]

Maybe I need a visual.

[Mallory Rubin]

But at the end of the day, she has on solo.

[Van Lathan]

She can win the.

[Amanda Dyer]

Do whatever.

[Van Lathan]

He doesn't look bad. Click him.

[CR]

You could. You could try this. But I just think English actors, if you. If you're like, here's the direct deposit, like, Michael Kane is me.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like they did get the estate's approval sure. Did they? I don't remember what that.

[Amanda Dyer]

Would you give approval for CGI shot?

[Sean Fennessey]

Who am I giving it to?

[CR]

Me.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would never give that.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're giving it to William Simmons.

[Sean Fennessey]

No.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Now Amanda has her second pick in movie.

[Amanda Dyer]

I'm taking the Last Jedi, which I know you would use as a curse, but I was very moved by it when I saw it in theaters. I rewatched it this morning, was equally moved by it. I sort of understand. I do understand the reading of it, as if not like, a betrayal of fans. But that movie connects with me because I do not identify as, like, a Star Wars Capital F fan. And it is a real opening of the world, and not just who can be a Jedi, but who can watch these movies and connect to them in any sort of way. And so I find part of that, and I really. I find the Rey stuff until Rise of the Skywalker, very moving. If I didn't get Last Jedi, I was gonna take Force Awakens just because of the scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

So a good movie.

[Amanda Dyer]

Once she get. That's the lightsaber, like, at the end, I will never forget that. And I'm not like a firestool, and

[Mallory Rubin]

Force Awakens is awesome.

[Amanda Dyer]

You know, I'm not.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a great moment in Star wars

[Amanda Dyer]

history in that kind of way. In addition to that, Last Friday is, like, funny with great performances and looks really good. I mean, the final showdown, the showdown in the Red Throne room, obviously, but then also when you have Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker

[Sean Fennessey]

Holdo maneuver, that looks amazing.

[Amanda Dyer]

That's Laura Dern, you know, like, it's made so well and with such a love of the franchise, I think. But then the willingness to turn it over, which I understand.

[Mallory Rubin]

Van's angry.

[Amanda Dyer]

Van has been nice to me, and I'm sitting next to him. So, like, I'll be nice about it, even though I do kind of. I think you're wrong, but that's okay. I was very moved by the Last Jedi, and that's my pick.

[Van Lathan]

It's a great movie. It's a great movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

It is. It just pokes holes.

[CR]

I think some of your Reddit posts from that era betray that opinion.

[Mallory Rubin]

But, yeah, I think there's a question of whether it's a savvy pick and a draft that people will be voting on, given how it is considered.

[Amanda Dyer]

What am I giving a five?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I love the Last Jedi, and it's

[Sean Fennessey]

a perfect pick for you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. I think it's a great movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fearlessly.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm really happy that you picked it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love this movie. I've always loved it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's fantastic. And, like, I wish Rian Johnson had gotten to make more Star wars movies. And I think, to me, like, the Luke stuff in that movie is really bold and brave and interesting. And it's like what you said earlier about religion, like, thinking of Star wars as a religion, like. Like, who doesn't question their faith at some point, you know, to. To confront our sacred ideal of the chosen one in a moment of feeling really lost and confused about the thing he has put his entire sense of self and life and the world into because of choices that he made and mistakes he made and also choices other people made. I just thought it was such an interesting decision to explore that. And, you know, it's funny because, like, watching your face when Holdo was invoked, there are so many different things you can point to in that movie that, like, it's a litmus test for how you feel about the movie. But maybe more broadly playing with these things. Obviously there was a lot of did the Holdo maneuver break canon? And then a lot of rebukes to that. But I will never forget in terms of do hyperspace lanes work that way? But I will literally never forget watching Last Jedi in the theater for the first time and the sound being sucked out of the theater. When that happened, do you remember what that felt like? That's a great movie theater.

[CR]

Did we see that at Disney?

[Mallory Rubin]

I saw it at Arclight. I remember walking over from the office and seeing it as a.

[Sean Fennessey]

You and I saw it at Disney together.

[Van Lathan]

One sentence, not fucking invited. Making Luke Skywalker hold a lightsaber and decide on whether or not he's going to murder his nephew in cold blood is akin to me, to making Seth Rogen James Bond. That right there. I understand characters and all of that stuff.

[CR]

There's just. I think there are three people at this table who just don't care about those rules.

[Sean Fennessey]

And there are two rules, and that's really what's inside.

[Van Lathan]

I understand

[Sean Fennessey]

I can't do this with you, but I will just say it's an amazing echo of the crisis in the prequels. It's just a fascinating future exploration of the problem of Anakin. It's all connected in my mind that what they did not learn through Anakin, he had to seriously consider through Ben. That, to me, is really strong thematic storytelling. I really love that choice. I understand why it upsets people. I understand why we have this kind of Jesus Christ, like, idea of Luke Skywalker.

[Amanda Dyer]

Oh, it's like, oh, so your problem is like a superman, like Luke Skywalker can't even think about killing people type thing?

[Van Lathan]

No, my problem is that my problem is the entire galaxy. Luke has legitimately devoted his life to building his power where he could rebuke the Empire. All of what he did has been undone. Han is in the wind, his sister is in trouble. He's pouting on a planet. It just doesn't make any sense. And to me, middle age is tough, though.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is tough figuring it out. It feels more real now even than it did five years ago.

[Van Lathan]

Tough.

[Sean Fennessey]

But anyway, like, I just want to take my ball and go home.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's a very beautiful planet.

[Van Lathan]

It's a gorgeous planet.

[Mallory Rubin]

He got that green milk straight from the teat, man.

[Amanda Dyer]

And I do like that. I like those.

[Van Lathan]

I think it's a great pick too.

[Mallory Rubin]

I.

[Amanda Dyer]

To be clear, it didn't even occur to me that it would be controversial in a voting. I mean, I know that it, I know that it will, but like, I don't acknowledge those people. Like, please don't vote for me sitting next to one and then go find another free podcast.

[Van Lathan]

You know, I would have, if, if I was taking the movie, I would have taken. If I was going to take a movie, I would have taken Jedi.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, you'll have your chance right now.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I'm not going to take Jedi. I'm going to take a vehicle.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, nice.

[Van Lathan]

I'm going to take the most iconic thing to me in Star wars that is still left on the board. And I'm gonna take the Millennium Fox.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a good pick.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, awesome pick. When I look up deleting that, when I look up the board, I know what that is.

[Sean Fennessey]

You now have the Millennium Falcon and Darth Vader. That's pretty good.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So like to me, when you think of Star wars, you think of all of these characters, but the one thing where all of this shit was going down and really encapsulates what the rebels were trying to do in the original trilogy is that broken down rust bucket of a ship that somehow was still the fucking fastest thing in the galaxy.

[CR]

I was thinking about this. I'm really glad you picked it because I also think it's representative you. Millennium Falcon is for the homies. It's for everybody. We're all gonna. You have to go down here and shoot you. You have to target like TIE fighters.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[CR]

I'm gonna go plot the course. You know, you do this X wing fighter, it's you and a droid. You know what I mean, like, X Wing Fighter is more of, like, a solo thing. It's more of blast shield down. I'm just gonna feel the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Some of us like to be alone, you know?

[CR]

Well, I mean, I think it's an interesting witness test if you prefer the vehicle of a. Of a solo artist or one that's like, me and everybody. We're gonna gamble a little bit here. We're gonna play some cards, and then we're gonna go fight some.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're a collaborator.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Millennium Falcon was in the as well. Yeah. Love it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Falcon also just one of the true, genuine through lines of the entire franchise. It is so valuable.

[CR]

Dubious ownership history. The Carfax on that is kind of.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Tough to get that vehicle insured at this point.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, Mallory, easy.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm taking Obi Wan as hero. I honestly can't believe he fell this far. When you close your eyes and you

[CR]

think of Obi Wan, do you think of Ewan McGregor?

[Mallory Rubin]

Of course.

[Sean Fennessey]

I. What?

[Mallory Rubin]

When I close my eyes, in general, I see Ewan McGregor, so no question. And actually, I see the animated Obi Wan, frankly, with that square jawline.

[Van Lathan]

Is that the only time that that's ever happened? Like, think about it.

[Amanda Dyer]

Has it happened?

[CR]

I don't think it happened.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[CR]

It depends on who you're talking to.

[Sean Fennessey]

You don't think that you were the chosen one?

[Amanda Dyer]

I do not.

[CR]

I have the high ground.

[Amanda Dyer]

I'm sorry.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't try it, guys.

[Van Lathan]

My nigga tried to flip anyway. Got his shit fucked up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Mustafar is iconic.

[CR]

Come on.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I like it. It's not. He's not replaced.

[Van Lathan]

I actually do think that Ewan McGregor is Obi Wan Kenobi.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I think I.

[Amanda Dyer]

At this point, I think that is, like, the dividing line. Like, that's absolutely insane. But I know you guys are living a different life.

[Mallory Rubin]

More of yes, again, genuinely, with all of the animated installments.

[Amanda Dyer]

And is he voicing those?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, he's not. The.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's just leaving money on the table.

[Mallory Rubin]

The fact that you could have such a passionate debate. Is Ewan McGregor your Obi Wan? Is Alec your Obi Wan? It's just more fodder for why it's a great pick. Like, he's one of the most iconic and essential characters in Star Wars, Certainly, undeniably, one of the most powers of

[CR]

the abomination of the television show. Affect your appreciation for Ewan's performance.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought that was the hottest he'd ever looked.

[CR]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Slicing sushi in the sun, you know, bearded, filthy.

[Amanda Dyer]

Woo.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wonderful stuff. Yeah. Obi Wan is one of the most important characters in Star Wars. Of my personal favorites, I have Obi Wan's lightsaber. Like to think about Obi Wan's lightsaber in some other ways. Obi Wan and the Duchess Satine, one of the great Star wars tragic romances in the wider canon. You know, I mean, at some point,

[Amanda Dyer]

Mallory, that's just not functional.

[Sean Fennessey]

That seems.

[Van Lathan]

You know, I figured it depends on what you can take.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Amanda Dyer]

I have to tell you spice it up at some point if you can't anymore, but that's fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you know who the Duchess. Duchess Satine.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know who the Duchess Satine is?

[Sean Fennessey]

More elegant than a blaster. That's what they say.

[Mallory Rubin]

Indeed. Yeah. There you go. Obi Wan versus Grievous. Will someone take Grievous? Maybe Obi Wan is hero.

[Amanda Dyer]

Did you miss any podcast?

[Mallory Rubin]

I would like to request that the picture is. You know what, Ewan McGregor.

[Van Lathan]

Why do you guys always get. Cause remember when Mal dropped the blowjob situation years ago?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I watched one year ago.

[Van Lathan]

I watched that clip all the time. Like, if I.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like all the time. All the time.

[Mallory Rubin]

I remember Amanda's reaction. Pretty viv sharp.

[Van Lathan]

And I look. I look at both.

[Mallory Rubin]

Amanda's reaction was amazing. I think you guys were supposed to be like, both like, this is Mal. And Amanda was like, I don't even remember. This is really a bummer.

[Van Lathan]

The whole snatch.

[Mallory Rubin]

And was talking about basement blowjobs.

[Amanda Dyer]

Oh, right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Back in Re Toown, Maryland. Some fond formative memories. Memories.

[Amanda Dyer]

Honestly.

[Sean Fennessey]

So glad we're able to relive it again.

[CR]

For some reason, you saying it again

[Amanda Dyer]

this time it was a recognizable sense memory thing. Like, I wasn't in that basement, but I was like, sure.

[Van Lathan]

Everybody that's watching right now, pause it. Go back and listen to it freeze on Amanda's face.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's just basements I have seen, you know.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have a new hope in Obi Wan. I feel pretty good.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Kenobi. The greatest Jedi of all time to me, by the way.

[Sean Fennessey]

Glad we were able to circle back to.

[Van Lathan]

He's the greatest Jedi of all time

[Sean Fennessey]

being pleasured by a lightsaber. I have two picks. You do, And I'm tremendous. Basement. They should set the next film there. Yeah. Will Mando be visiting your basement?

[CR]

Hunt for Ben Solo.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was a reload shipper.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's elegant timing. Yeah, Unsurprising.

[Amanda Dyer]

Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, I have two picks, and I'm gonna tell you both of the People that I'm gonna take.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I know what you're doing.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll be taking Leia Organa.

[Amanda Dyer]

Good.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I'll also be taking Kylo Ren, AKA Solo.

[CR]

Good gamesmanship.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like that. Now, Leia. I obviously have had an amazing experience with Star Wars. Cause if there is no Leia, my daughter's not getting into Star Wars. She's not connecting with these movies. She's an incredibly strong entry point for them for a lot of people, but especially for young women who are getting into the stories. Cause she's one of the very few women with any agency in the movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wait till she meets Ahsoka.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I'm trying to figure out what's the right place to put her versus put Ben Solo. Because they're mother and son. They're both heroes. One of them is also a villain, and they're both Skywalkers. So I'm not sure if, like, just visually speaking, looking at the board, one makes more sense. I think Leia as my Skywalker makes the most sense.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that's.

[Sean Fennessey]

And Ben Solo as the hero or villain, since he's both, he's, I might argue, one of the most interesting choices you could make in that category.

[Amanda Dyer]

Agree.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pick the other one in Darth Vader.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

About Ben Solo. Kylo Ren is one of my favorite characters in movies in the last 20 years.

[Amanda Dyer]

I love him.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think he is an amazing creation and such a perfect evocation of a certain kind of male psyche that was just very prevalent in the time when he was creating. And it's really interesting to me when you can take contemporaneous psychological profiles of men or women and put them into these crazy worlds like genre storytelling and that frustrated emo sad boy. Why can't I be. Why are my parents making me be this way? Why can't I get back to the time like my grandfather, who was so cool? My parents don't want me to be successful. They won't let me have my own independence. All of those very common, touchable ideas, putting them inside of a Star wars villain and making him this kind of, like, snively person who also has amazing power and looks cool, but doesn't know how to hold the confidence was just like, an amazing choice. I've always loved Driver. I think he's a great character. So he'll be hero or villain.

[CR]

Skipping through Last Jedi Last Night, and the scene where Snoke is like, take that ridiculous mask off is so devastating because it's just like, oh, you don't need this to breathe. You're just being like. Like, this is just Hot Topic Darth Vader, and it's such a great insult to him. And then he fucking cuts him in half because of it.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's the thing is he's still really powerful. Like, he's still a very cool Star wars character, but with all of that frailty right on the surface.

[CR]

I had completely forgotten the Dyad thing where.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, Dyad and a Force, they're tied together.

[Amanda Dyer]

Oh, yeah. And he's shirtless for all of it with that, like, just very square torso.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a great moment when she's like, can you. Do you have anything you could put on, Cowboy? Would you like anything in Last Jedi?

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Sean Fennessey]

That idea of them being able to see each other across.

[Mallory Rubin]

Force timing, as the kids call it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Force timing. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I like that.

[Amanda Dyer]

For people who are just listening, it should be noted that you just shrugged.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, I like the connection that they had. I think that that character of Ben Solo is kind of, in ways indicative of the failures of the sequel trilogy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[CR]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

Because they didn't know what to do.

[Amanda Dyer]

Well, the ending is unforgivable for both of them.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that's a Rise of Skywalker problem.

[Van Lathan]

It is. But at the same time, his arc

[Sean Fennessey]

in Last Jedi is so great to me.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree.

[Van Lathan]

To me, they, like, there's even in. There's inconsistencies with the power of the character. The movie starts with that character freezing a blaster bolt in midair. So you're thinking, oh, my God, this is a nuke level Skywalker blooded fucking menace.

[Sean Fennessey]

One of the strongest we've ever seen.

[Van Lathan]

And then at the end of the movie, he gets fucked by, like, he's like, Finn is in a lightsaber battle with him. Like, they never quite clearly tell him,

[Mallory Rubin]

well, he's been shot, he's bleeding out. But he's also emotionally devastated by his choice to kill his own father.

[Van Lathan]

I get it. But, like, a lot of times it's been undone when I look at the murkiness of those films. To me, the murkiness of those films can be laid at the feet of the murkiness of the villain that is right there in the films. So, look, it is a Rise of Skywalker problem, but the Rise of Skywalker is one of the movies that Kylo Ren is in.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's fair to say there's some kind of inconsistencies about how powerful or not powerful certain characters are across all the movies. I just think that's the boldest Choice. To me, that character across that sequel trilogy, is that the power and the

[CR]

way that he's trying to portray him and having him be. Let's get a Marlon Brando, James Dean style, agitated, methody person to do this.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's exactly what I was thinking. The performance style of the actor, which is very different. Different from the kind of like elevated pop fantasy that came in all the other movies. Okay, those are my three picks. Back to Mallory.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. Geez. There are so many things I want to do here. This is really, I think Skywalker has gotten so thin that I'll wait, which I'm okay with. I Usually in a draft, wild card is like, I think, almost synonymous with save it till the end. But I think that there are, to me, two potential picks inside of wild card that are could have been in the first round of this draft. I'm torn, which I want to do, but I will be going with my wild card here. I'm going to go with my heart. I'm a little hard head on this. I'm taking lightsabers.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think in a Star wars draft, it's pretty important that lightsabers be selected hard.

[CR]

We obviously have a personal attachment to the contest.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know how many lightsabers I own?

[Van Lathan]

A lot. Now we have a.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do I use them for?

[Van Lathan]

Get out of here.

[Mallory Rubin]

My husband, tough stuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just looked right at me when you said that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because I know that he doesn't appreciate when I stare into his eyes.

[Amanda Dyer]

Now he's moved around at all.

[CR]

I have not rejected a while.

[Mallory Rubin]

I, I will be jealous of the person who gets the other thing. I considered taking in wild card, but I'm so thrilled to have lightsabers that I, I, I think this is the right thing for me to do here. Lightsabers genuinely one of the most iconic things in all of pop culture, all of the world.

[Sean Fennessey]

Good pick in a rare moment when an early wild card pick. Very justified. Yes. I thought about weapons. I just didn't think there were enough weapons.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's part of why I really wanted to have lightsabers. Because Star wars is very much about duels and battles, and I don't think, frankly, like, blasters are going to be selected or should be.

[Sean Fennessey]

Now, you could have been more specific. You could have said Lelouch lightsaber.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, but why? Now I get them all.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm just saying now I get all of them.

[Van Lathan]

It's good ones, too.

[Sean Fennessey]

You could have said Mace Windu lightsabers.

[Mallory Rubin]

That is one of the ones I own. You know, as a Ravens fan, Purple Saber.

[Amanda Dyer]

Pretty cool.

[Mallory Rubin]

But no, I'm just getting every single one, so I don't need to make the choice, which is pretty wonderful and powerful.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, Van Lethan.

[Van Lathan]

I am going wild card, too. I'm taking the most iconic stuff that's still available to me, and I'm taking the Force.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, incredible pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have that in my top three in wildcard. I thought you were gonna do something else.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think Van is dominating.

[Van Lathan]

I'm taking the Force.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Like, when I was Aladdin, the thing that more intrigued me about Star wars than anything else was this idea that there was this thing that binded the universe together and that accessing it would let you overcome any sort of evil that you were up against. And if Luke could do that, if he can get in tune with the Force, if he could listen to the Force, if he could operate by the will of the Force, he could turn

[CR]

his guidance system off.

[Van Lathan]

Exactly. And just shoot into and destroy the biggest, baddest thing that's ever existed. So the Force. And that, more than anything, has been the thing that, as we move forward, we struggle with the most. Which is. Which is how to deal with it and talk about it and make it make sense in a very cynical world.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's, frankly, the only reason that this. That's the only knock on the pick, is that I think the Force has become a little bit of, like, a. A lightning rod inside of how fans talk about Star wars and how Star wars is made. And does everything need to be about the. A lot of this about the TV shows, to be fair. But, like, does everything need to be about the. Should these characters be able to use the Force? Obviously, one of the big debates about. Sorry to bring up Last Jedi again, was like, Broom Boy, which I loved and thought was awesome and a great reminder of how big the galaxy is, but that's not how everybody feels about it.

[CR]

I was gonna ask what the debate

[Amanda Dyer]

was, so you don't wanna know.

[Sean Fennessey]

When we did the Star wars rewatchables episode, I proffered a theory that the decline of organized religion. Interest in organized religion in America dovetails neatly with the rise of Star Wars Star wars film.

[CR]

You say so evenly that it doesn't register how insane that Mom.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel very confident in being at

[Van Lathan]

least an interesting theory, but I honestly agree with more. Like, we could extrapolate, I think, belief in Superman, like, all of these things that are based in this sort of cultural purity, they go right along with the fact that we just don't believe in this version of Mystical and mythical goodness anymore.

[Sean Fennessey]

So that was what I was gonna ask you is, do you consider yourself a person who fears God?

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. And you can hold that with the Force?

[Van Lathan]

I can. And it was so funny back in the day when my grandmother, she tried to get me off the Force. She joined a very popular type of Christianity. And she played this video where it was like, george Lucas actually believes in the Force and they think that the Force is real. And she goes, so if you believe in the Force and you watch Star wars, you might go to hell.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was like, okay, yeah, it's a teen mentality. I'll see you in hell then. Okay, my turn. You're up, Dobbins.

[Amanda Dyer]

So there are a few things I could do here. And I. I'm not. I'm not going big and grand and Lightsaber and the Force. I'm not doing my wild card. I think I'm going to have to play strategic. What happens if I break the draft?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, shit.

[Sean Fennessey]

You can break the draft.

[Amanda Dyer]

I might be breaking the draft. So we'll see how you guys are feeling. But problematic character. Shaun explained to me yesterday, and he was like, just Google it. And it turns out when you Google it, you get a lot of men who are mad about the Last Jedi writing about the Star wars characters that they hate the most. And so aside from Jar Jar, obviously there are many cultural stereotypes embodied across the 11 films that people would have different issues with. But I don't have, like, a specific recall of all of those slights. So I'm doing a problematic character that jumped out to me yesterday while watching the Phantom Menace for the first time, which is Padme, because that is an age gap romance, and I have some real issues with that. In addition, she is endangering her handmaidens with the swishoo, including Sophia Copeland. So because of Padme, we might not get lost in translation. So get out of here, Padme.

[CR]

Why are you looking at me when you're yelling?

[Amanda Dyer]

I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a great thing. You haven't broken the game. Technically. Yeah.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay, but why would I have broken the game up?

[CR]

Because she's going.

[Sean Fennessey]

The number of Skywalkers available.

[Mallory Rubin]

Jesus Christ. Yeah, I've got some things I can do when I get there, but yeah, it's got.

[Amanda Dyer]

Doesn't help you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting pick, though.

[Amanda Dyer]

Well, I had some questions and they weren't answered.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think I didn't rewatch.

[Amanda Dyer]

Also a flawed performance, but whatever.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, I would argue not her fault.

[Amanda Dyer]

They're not giving anyone in that movie a lot to work with.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that's a George Lucas issue.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think the performance in Attack of the Clones is even worse, but. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So they're five years apart.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. She is a.

[Van Lathan]

She's 14. So when they come back to the next movie, he's 17, she's 22.

[Amanda Dyer]

Listen, you know that right now in 2026, what does Agent do that on Naboo.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. What is the age of 17?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think he's older than 17. He's older than 17.

[Van Lathan]

Is he older?

[Mallory Rubin]

He's like 18 or 19.

[Van Lathan]

So he's 18 or 19.

[Amanda Dyer]

There's power imbalance.

[Van Lathan]

There is power imbalance. Although he is the most powerful being in the universe.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, sure.

[Amanda Dyer]

But institutionally speaking, midichlorian. Jesus.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, you shocked me with that one. Thank you.

[Amanda Dyer]

Thanks so much.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, it's a hell of a take.

[Amanda Dyer]

Wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, that.

[Van Lathan]

That.

[Sean Fennessey]

That leads us to cr. Right, CR on the top two picks for you, cr. Do you have a Skywalker?

[CR]

Yeah, I got Luke. You got Luke the Skywalker, in some ways.

[Mallory Rubin]

Jack, can I request that you add an S to lightsaber to make it plural, to really just reinforce that. I have every lightsaber.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[CR]

Because somebody's gonna be like, ah, yeah,

[Mallory Rubin]

paper copies over here.

[Sean Fennessey]

Look at that.

[CR]

Okay, so, first of all, just inspired by you guys, I'm gonna go wild Card Death Star.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, fantastic.

[Van Lathan]

Damn, that's a good one.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's a good one.

[CR]

Something that I think is now, like, obviously has crossed over into, like, why.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why didn't you take in a vehicle?

[Sean Fennessey]

It could have been lg, I guess.

[CR]

I don't really think of it as a vehicle. It's more of a weapon.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a battle station. It's a concept.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's a useful reference.

[Van Lathan]

Have you guys ever noticed Mallory's draft?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm just curious.

[Van Lathan]

Her draft tactics? She shits on your draft, she tries to glamor the arm.

[Amanda Dyer]

Have you ever noticed we've been living like this for 10 years?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think everyone's doing. Doing great. I was doing great. I just was interested in the strategy.

[CR]

I think of it more as a weapon than a vehicle. And also often, you know, it's quite stationary. I know it orbits, but, you know, like, in any case, it has sort of provided a lot of my favorite moments throughout Star wars, both in New Hope and Return of the Jedi and in Andor. In some ways, I was just watching the Krennic interrogation scene of Dierdre, and I think it's one of the great inventions of this universe. Is this idea of especially pre saging some of the Cold War stuff that was really about to hit off. But this idea of a superweapon, this idea of a doomsday, this idea of everything. Lights out. I think they may have gotten a little flippant with its use in the sequels or with the idea of the Starkiller base and what it does. But, yeah, you know, I'm happy about that.

[Sean Fennessey]

And now is that the biggest flaw of the Force Awakens?

[Mallory Rubin]

That it's just that the Empire would

[Sean Fennessey]

be like, we're just gonna do this again. Yes. Not that the movie is the same as the first film, but the idea of the Empire just trying to build another thing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Planet Killer.

[Sean Fennessey]

The third time, they win with it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, why do they think this is the only way to dominate?

[CR]

I mean, the weird thing is that they have the two of the most powerful beings in the galaxy, and they're like, well, we gotta build a space station.

[Van Lathan]

Well, the Emperor is also obsessed with it. If he would have listened to Thrawn and invested into the TIE program, the TIE program probably would've been better. More fortunate.

[CR]

Fortunately, it would have been if they Oppenheimer'd it. And the Republic was like, we have to build a space station so that this can never happen again. And then it just becomes nuclear, you know?

[Van Lathan]

But it's the follies of Empire that

[Sean Fennessey]

would be Oppenheimering it.

[CR]

Well, if you were like, we have to show them, you know, like, we

[Sean Fennessey]

have to beat the Shermans.

[Van Lathan]

Google Grand Admiral Thrawn.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thrawn is the.

[Amanda Dyer]

Which movie is he in?

[Sean Fennessey]

No movies, books and TV shows.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay, well, I can't be responsible for that.

[Van Lathan]

He's an awesome villain.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Good pick. Chris, you have another pick

[CR]

for movie you're cursed with. I'm giving Amanda. I'm giving her Phantom Menace for Amazon.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is absolutely the right move.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one. So how do we march?

[Sean Fennessey]

Showed your hand there.

[Amanda Dyer]

It is fine. I mean, honestly, I.

[CR]

Clones might be worse.

[Amanda Dyer]

I think I have seen clones I see more and more. That's the one I haven't seen. And then I think philosophically and creatively, Rise of Skywalker is more bankrupt. Rise of Skywalker is the evil movie and Phantom Menace is the bad movie.

[CR]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Phantom Menace is just kind of boring at times. Attack of the Clones I will cape for just because it just has some fun action.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think Attack of the Clones is a better story than Phantom Menace with easily the worst dialogue and performances in the entire franchise.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I agree.

[CR]

Yeah, it's hard because like, I know pod racing and Duel of the Fates, people will be like, but you have that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't.

[CR]

Is Mason Attack the Clones.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is that Mason is in all the

[CR]

clones, but he gets killed in Attack of the Clones, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, that's it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Revenge of the sins. Unlimited power. When Alice says do the emperor, that's. That's of course what I said. Okay.

[CR]

So those are my.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Amanda Dyer]

Thank you so much for that. What a gift.

[Mallory Rubin]

Where did you think someone would first choose to curse someone? Was this about the spot midway when

[Sean Fennessey]

it got to Kris, I started thinking about who I would curse with. What. So seems like about that time, right? Because you don't want it to be nasty up front. There's so much we love about Star wars, but now we've cleared the deck on a lot of old favorites and we'll think about how we can also wound our competitors.

[Amanda Dyer]

This episode is brought to you by Apple and at&t. Scroll long enough and you'll hear it all. Miracle diets, fitness trends, you name it. But with iPhone and Apple watch, you get meaningful insights from a very trusted source. Your body. You can track sleep quality, cardio fitness and more. Then unpack all the information in the health app on iPhone to get a picture of your overall health. These health insights are developed with clinical experts from start to finish. Find out [e-mail] health Apple Watch is not a medical device and should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advice. I guess I could curse someone. But the wild card of it all, now I really, I am.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you have a long list of wild card potentials?

[Amanda Dyer]

I had more than one, but I'm gonna take John Williams.

[Mallory Rubin]

There we go. That's what I thought we said.

[Amanda Dyer]

Love it like, which is just like an absolute no brainer. These, I mean these movies don't exist without lightsabers of the force, but they also do without that score, which is like honestly probably the greatest certainly classical music of our lifetime. But he's one of one. It will live on. If you have not seen John Williams performing or like conducting symphony orchestras, performing his work. There's a whole series that he did in Vienna which we just like watch in my house. And my children love it. And then I, you know, the music itself can bring me to tears, honestly, more than the movies can.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's why I started crying talking about binary sunsets earlier.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's an insane accomplishment that totally changes the way that we understand popular music from the last 50 years.

[CR]

You really wonder what would happen if it was another Score. If they missed.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Or if somebody else was doing it. Yeah. If he wasn't just the fucking man of our lives.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's a single. One of my favorite podcasts that I've ever done and been a part of was the sounds of Star Wars. Bingemon episode during the Star wars runs where we talked about score, but also just in general, the soundscape of Star Wars. And I think there's no greater shorthand to that emotional connection than like when you hear the Force theme kick in or you hear a lightsaber fire up. It's just the sounds of Star Wars. Take you to that part.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just hearing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, the beeps and boops. No droid category, I think is very devastating here, by the way. But of course they could be selected in certain categories. John Williams Score was what I was alluding to earlier when I said I was really torn between two things in a top wild card. The Force was, was up there as well. But yeah, I think, think this is a great pick.

[Amanda Dyer]

What an absolute legend.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, I have to take a Skywalker now. I've waited long enough.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why? Why at this point, the category's so thin.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I mean, the category's thin now. If I fucking wait, then I'm gonna get left with fucking Shimi Skywalker or.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cause you're left without.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I've got some things I can do.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel fine.

[Van Lathan]

I'm gonna take Rey.

[Sean Fennessey]

Eligible.

[Mallory Rubin]

A character you don't like. A character you don't like.

[Amanda Dyer]

Like you sat there in the fucking Coliseum.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think you should be allowed to.

[Amanda Dyer]

And you were like, rey is not a Skywalker. You said it over that.

[Sean Fennessey]

I did say it over again.

[CR]

And that she just, She's a Skywalker.

[Van Lathan]

She's one.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wait, so you're saying not eligible, and

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm saying she is eligible. That I was wrong when I said that to Amanda.

[CR]

But you never corrected it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I apologize to Amanda for not correcting that.

[Amanda Dyer]

She fucking late. You already threw a tantrum about me recalling the conversation.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's only one person throwing tantrums on this podcast. And we all know who it is about Amanda.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a very thin category. But like, if this is the last mid rounder that you can get. Yeah, this is the. I mean, you're, you know, after this, there's like, there's none. There's none left. Like, to me, I don't know what, what you guys do. So I'm, I'm gonna take Ray. Interesting. I like her. We're gonna see her.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is shameful what you're doing right now.

[Van Lathan]

Many people are saying, because it's not

[Mallory Rubin]

credible, you don't like her and you don't like the movie she's in.

[Van Lathan]

We're gonna see more of her. Okay, I like her. I think she means a lot. By the way. Can I say something? Can I say something?

[CR]

A lot of young are talking about her the way Trump talked about Tim Cook yesterday. He never bothered me. And I will say that I think

[Van Lathan]

for a lot of young lady Skywalker, like Star wars fans, that she represents a lot to them. She's cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like Rey. She does.

[Van Lathan]

I like Ray. I'm taking Rey. That's my Skywalker right there. So I don't know who else is on the board that could even be

[Sean Fennessey]

like you were going to say Rey was your problematic character. That's where I thought you were going to go there, too.

[Amanda Dyer]

Why? Because she's not really fleshed out. And what they do. I mean, what they do with her in Rise of Skywalker is unforgivable. But I don't think it's raised.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think just. Even the explanation of her lineage is so janky.

[Amanda Dyer]

I mean, I agree, you know, and

[Sean Fennessey]

it's like she's the daughter of. Of a failed Palpatine clone.

[Mallory Rubin]

The Strandcast. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's just a very odd con. Like such a. Best they could do with that idea.

[Amanda Dyer]

In the same way that you're putting all the failures of. You're separating the failures of Rise of Skywalker from Ben Solo, from Kylo Ren, I'm separating it from Rey. The moment when she gets the lightsaber and force the Reykheads. I already said we lost the television.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's back.

[Amanda Dyer]

Tear it up.

[Sean Fennessey]

I. Good pick. I think I'll apologize to you again. Thank you for not letting you know that I had changed my mind about that. Only because I didn't think there were enough Skywalker characters that would be eligible to make the game continue. Fortunately for Mallory, I do still have

[Mallory Rubin]

to select a Skywalker.

[Sean Fennessey]

You do?

[Mallory Rubin]

I will not be doing it now. Now that Rey's off the board, I'll be waiting probably until the last round.

[Sean Fennessey]

Seems wise.

[Mallory Rubin]

There are some things I can do there. Let's see some exciting possibilities here. I will take, I think, the clear number one draft pick and problematic character. I'll take Jar Jar.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wise.

[CR]

Because you think he's the most problematic or you just love him so much?

[Mallory Rubin]

All of the.

[Amanda Dyer]

No, no, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sorry.

[Amanda Dyer]

God.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think problematic, but also I Think clearly the poster character for that idea inside of the franchise. And, you know, are there some fun little Jar Jar moments in the animated canon that have warmed me to him over time? You know, are there a lot of fun Jar Jar theories? Love what they've done with Jar Jar in the little Lego shorts. I mean, Jar Jar is. Not only does he go in the Senate, let's be clear. Jar Jar's responsible for the emperor. Remember, he's, like, gaslit and manipulated into presenting the motion that allows Darth Sidious to become the emperor. So in addition to all of the other. The tropes and the racist caricatures and just the really bad dialogue and storytelling and Phantom Menace, Jar Jar is also responsible for fascism and tyranny reigning across the Galactic Empire for decades on end. And so I don't see how Jar Jar couldn't be the top pick in this category. Happy to have him on the squad. I will not be doing an impression.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, definitely. Number one.

[CR]

There's also, like, four other super kind of racist characters in those prequels you can certainly select.

[Mallory Rubin]

But thank you for saying clearly the number one. I appreciate it.

[Van Lathan]

Six categories or five?

[Mallory Rubin]

Seven.

[Van Lathan]

Seven. What the fuck am I doing? I'm trying to see what else is on the board.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, I have two picks.

[Amanda Dyer]

You need both movies.

[Mallory Rubin]

Vancely Van. You haven't picked a movie yet, which

[Sean Fennessey]

is challenging, because you're about to receive a movie in another category. Because of the strength of Van Slate, I am cursing him with the rise of Skywalker.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay, good.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, wow.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which to me, is just desserts for the Last Jedi haters. Yeah, that movie exists because of the Last Jedi haters. It exists because Disney forced J.J. abrams to make that movie too fast with a script that was not ready. And that they forced all these ideas into the frame, and then they fucked up Star wars movies for seven years. That is a fact. The movie, I think we can all agree, is ultimately a failure.

[Mallory Rubin]

Of course.

[CR]

And was Trevorrow supposed to direct that?

[Van Lathan]

He was, yes. And he was gonna do a whole duel of the things that.

[CR]

But then they were like, ryan's gonna direct. And then they were like.

[Van Lathan]

They lost their nerves.

[Sean Fennessey]

They botched it. I'm only giving it to you because your board is really good, and I'm kind of annoyed with how good you've been.

[Amanda Dyer]

I was thinking about giving it to you also because you.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is upstanding.

[Amanda Dyer]

You don't like Last Jedi. You're not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can I ask.

[Amanda Dyer]

Rise of Skywalker happened because of the. So I'm not blaming you personally?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dyer]

Cause I didn't do it. Yeah, you didn't do it, but it's not good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can I ask, like, a process question in terms of how this will be presented? Cause you're like, I did this here because I want to hurt Vance because his squad is so good. But it's listed on your team. So when people very quickly are looking at this at, like, on Instagram, it will be.

[CR]

It will be corrected. So whatever movie you're cursing that will be placed on.

[Sean Fennessey]

Exactly. I'm just leaving this up for order purchases. That was going to be my recommendation. I could be.

[Van Lathan]

I could make an. A true argument that if you're cursed with that movie, you've lost that your entire board.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's a great. I mean, Rise of Skywalker is a scandal. Genuinely a scandal.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is a scandal. I think, actually, when we came out of the movie, we were, like, a little gobsmacked. We were, like, what, just stood still

[Mallory Rubin]

on the sidewalk for 45 minutes, unable to move?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, that was tough. Yeah, that was tough. It's too bad. Anyway, I got to pick something else. Yeah. So I've got. You've done your movies, so I need a vehicle, a problematic character, and a wild card.

[Van Lathan]

Huh?

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah. Hmm.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hmm.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think. I'll tell you what I think is the coolest vehicle after the Millennium Falcon. I'm gonna take it right now. It's called the TIE Advanced X1. It's Darth Vader's TIE fighter.

[Van Lathan]

It is good.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're going very specific, which I think

[Sean Fennessey]

is super fucking cool. And you know what he does get blown out of the frame by Han Solo in A New Hope.

[Mallory Rubin]

And he goes, what?

[Sean Fennessey]

I can't deny it, but even still, it's just something I enjoy. I enjoy him getting behind the wheel there. Just real Top Gun Maverick vibes, where it's like, fine, I'll do it myself. You know, And I just think that's a really cool vehicle. So that. That's my pick. You could have gone any number of directions. You could have gone broad with a certain style of vehicle. But if I had to choose one to jump into, if I wasn't piloting the Millennium Falcon, it would be this one.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. Okay, that's good. Interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mallory, you're up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. I didn't necessarily think I was going to do this here, but I'm mostly. I'm gonna curse someone with Attack of the Clones because I don't want to be cursed with Attack of the Clones, and I actually would be, like, genuinely fine with Any of the other movies that someone sent my way. Because this will take, I think, clearly the bottom three. Phantom Menace, Rise of Skywalker, and Attack of the Clones off the board means I can't receive one of the worst three movies. So I think, strategically, it's sound for me to just avoid being able to receive this. Who do I want to give it to? So Amanda has been cursed with the movie.

[Amanda Dyer]

Amanda's been cursed with the movie. So Sean and Chris are your options?

[Mallory Rubin]

I got her own.

[Van Lathan]

Jeez.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sheesh.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[CR]

This is like an.

[Mallory Rubin]

Life comes at you fast. Okay, so let's see. Chris has Luke, Rogue One, the Death Star, and has given Phantom Menace. Sean has Empire. Leia been. I do. And the TIE Fighter. I do think I have to curse Sean with this.

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

You gotta counterbalance having Empire clearly the. The best movie. I think. So Sean will be receiving Attack of the Clones, which I think is the.

[Amanda Dyer]

What happens in that?

[CR]

Nothing.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, Anakin slices up a pear and sends it to Padme in midair. Remember that there's inappropriate espionage chase, but there's also.

[CR]

Is that when Dooku comes in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Dooku enters the frame. General Grievous enters Kamino.

[Van Lathan]

People don't like Obi Wan, but in the movie theater, when Obi Wan. Obi Wan. When Yoda was getting busy with his lightsaber, people were going crazy. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

That was sick.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, it's not. It's by no means correct.

[Mallory Rubin]

The performances and dialogue in that movie are appalling. Every scene between Anakin and Padme in that is appalling. How many times have you said to your. To someone in your life, hold me like you did by the lake? And Naboo. Is that something you guys say to people?

[CR]

Yeah, all the time.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, that's what you say to your lightsaber. Exactly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Quite right. Quite right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Is it. Is it, man?

[Amanda Dyer]

I know it's, man.

[Van Lathan]

So I gotta take a movie now.

[Mallory Rubin]

You don't have to.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I'm going to. Now, this is tough for me because in my heart, there's a movie that I want to take, but I can't justify taking it above the other two films that are still there. So I'm going to take. Which I think has now become an underrated movie, Return of the Jedi.

[CR]

I believe so. I believe you're right.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I think it's now become an underrated movie. I think Return of the Jedi, coming after Empire Strikes Back was a movie that it was easy to criticize because the Empire is so brilliant. But Jedi is a fantastic film. It completes the flawless arc of Luke Skywalker. You have Sarlacc, Pitt. You have all kinds of different things in that movie that are super duper iconic. People are hit or miss on the Ewoks. I love them. I like watching the Ewoks. I liked indoor. I like. I like the Force race. I like a lot of the stuff. All of the stuff.

[CR]

Admiral Ackbar.

[Van Lathan]

Admiral Ackbar. All of that stuff in Jedi to me works. And if I got a draft here, I'm gonna get one of the original trilogy.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think this is kind of a no brainer, right?

[CR]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't agree.

[Amanda Dyer]

Oh, interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, you're a Sith girl.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm shocked and I feel personally betrayed that you didn't take Sith here. Honestly, astonishing.

[Van Lathan]

Can I be real with you?

[Mallory Rubin]

What happened?

[Van Lathan]

If it was about my heart, that's the movie that I'm taking.

[Mallory Rubin]

Follow your heart. It's Star Wars. What is literally what is really cool.

[Van Lathan]

You can't compare it to Return of the Jedi.

[Mallory Rubin]

Return of The Jedi is 40 minutes of Jabba the Hut and like Boba Fett going down sad into the Sarlacc pit like a cop.

[Sean Fennessey]

All that stuff is awesome.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then 90 minutes of the era,

[Van Lathan]

you're glamor in the audience. Okay, It's Jedi.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is.

[Mallory Rubin]

I honestly would have. Not only would I have taken Sif before that easily, I would have taken Force Awakens before that.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm just.

[Mallory Rubin]

You didn't surprise.

[Amanda Dyer]

You took a new hope in the second pick in the draft.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't get it. I can't believe you didn't take Seth. I just can't believe it.

[Amanda Dyer]

All right, Jedi.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that was the correct pick. I think I agree. And actually, your strategy waiting on movie paid off.

[Mallory Rubin]

Get it?

[Van Lathan]

You got one of the OG trilogies still all the way down there.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know. I mean, I think you did good, Amanda.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yes. Okay. So going along with. No, I looked at the exact name, but in Return of the Jedi. Yes. Okay. So it's a speeder bike. And I believe the correct model is the 74Z speeder bike. This is my son's favorite part, Return of the Jedi.

[CR]

This is such a fucking dangerous vehicle, though.

[Amanda Dyer]

And they look. It looks very cool. Although I guess you don't always have

[CR]

to ride it in situations.

[Amanda Dyer]

I can pick all speeders. I don't have to be specific.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Amanda Dyer]

I pick speeder bikes.

[Van Lathan]

You know what? The speeder bike, the fact that Leia was on that bitch going crazy.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

Is the first time I was, I was like, it's probably force sensitive because like I thought you were gonna say,

[Sean Fennessey]

women should be allowed to drive.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay, so that's my vehicle. Speeder bikes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nice. Speeders are fun.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is the vehicle called that Anakin and Obi Wan race in at the beginning of Clones? Like the car. The hover car. Oh, I don't know.

[Van Lathan]

Follow car. Yeah, I see. What you know what you mean. I'm not sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

You guys don't know. Neither of you. Well, then it must be really obscure.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, there's an iconic Star wars vehicle that's still on the board.

[Sean Fennessey]

A couple, I would say.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Upsizing to a large popcorn. Smart move staying for the post credit sequence. Smart move finding ways to be financially savvy. Very smart move. Maybe the smartest. Especially when you choose to bundle home and auto with help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents. Bundle. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

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[Sean Fennessey]

Problems.

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[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, now it is Chris's turn. Right, Chris, what are you. What are you missing now?

[Mallory Rubin]

Hero.

[CR]

Hero. Vehicle and problematic. I'm gonna go. God, I don't want to be redundant. I'm gonna go Cassie and Andor for Hero, even though I already have Rogue One. But.

[Amanda Dyer]

But you mean Cassian Rogue One. Because Andor's not.

[CR]

Yeah, I know. I know that he's like, sort of plays the wall a little bit. The Jinn is the hero of Rogue One.

[Amanda Dyer]

But, you know, I know that, too.

[CR]

Jyn's dad. I was thinking that is the architect of our demise. So, you know, I think that also the.

[Mallory Rubin]

The architect of us being able to defeat the Death Star.

[CR]

It's true. You know, it's true. It's the plans that he leaves behind. But

[Mallory Rubin]

probably Stardust. Yeah.

[CR]

Cassian for her. Because I don't have a deep attachment to Jyn, and I don't have a deep attachment to any of the remaining people, really. Like Poe or whatever. What do you think of that?

[Sean Fennessey]

A couple more interesting heroes out there.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm surprised by some of the characters who have not been selected in Hero. I will say that. Has everybody taken their hero and villain? No, you haven't. So I'll refrain from speaking further. And

[Amanda Dyer]

of course, I can name all of them.

[Sean Fennessey]

So this has been nicely distributed amongst the three trilogies. I'll say.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[CR]

I mean, I'm kind of avoiding the prequels to some extent, but.

[Van Lathan]

So you're.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're a little worried. You're too Rogue One heavy and not spread out across the board.

[CR]

I just really like Cassian and even, like, his introduction is so dope in that movie for Vehicle. Sorry, my scrolls are not stapled. Oh, you know what I'll do? Problematic character.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[CR]

Jabba.

[Van Lathan]

Good one.

[CR]

Human trafficker.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you think about the idea that he's also an Italian stereotype?

[CR]

I hadn't thought about that. That never occurred to me.

[Sean Fennessey]

His last name ends in a vowel.

[Van Lathan]

Ah, it's tough. He's supposed to be a big fat mobster. His last name.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's a gangster.

[Van Lathan]

He's a gangster. He's supposed to be a big fat mobster. Yeah, it's tough.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

That is the idea that represents a whole secret society.

[CR]

But I think Jabba is, like, when. It's just like, he's like a. You know, he's a bookie. You're like, all right, Jabba. But then when he's got slave Leia by the chain, like, that's like a problem.

[Van Lathan]

That's tough.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, but how. How often did you jerk off to that when you were younger?

[Sean Fennessey]

What was it that he was getting out of that?

[Van Lathan]

Out of what?

[Sean Fennessey]

Leia chained up.

[Van Lathan]

He was licking her. Remember? He licked her with the tongue.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was that the primary?

[Mallory Rubin]

It was all about the titillation.

[CR]

Like, the implication.

[Mallory Rubin]

His lightsaber, if you know what I mean.

[CR]

The implication is that she is his concubine.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah, right.

[Sean Fennessey]

But what. How would that have played out?

[Amanda Dyer]

Do you mean how does a hut have sexual intercourse?

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not gonna use those words.

[Amanda Dyer]

Pleasure centers.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there like a. I don't know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is he even a woman? You know, where's the hut?

[Sean Fennessey]

Phallus, you know, like, that's what I'm. That's what I'm saying.

[Amanda Dyer]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

Because they're baby huts.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's right.

[CR]

Procreation going down more about, like. It's like romantasy. It's like he's. He's like the human being is like a winged fairy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Amanda Dyer]

You know? Yeah, you're right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Loves to read Jabba. Big lick guy.

[Sean Fennessey]

So Jabba is your problematic character. Okay.

[CR]

I was gonna. Yeah, that's my problematic.

[Sean Fennessey]

And we're back to Amanda.

[Amanda Dyer]

So I have hero or villain, and I can curse someone. And I don't really feel that strongly about any of the remaining movies to curse people with. And also, my options are. Mal, who would be excited to get the third movie? Sith something. Can't remember the full title.

[Van Lathan]

It's tough.

[Amanda Dyer]

And I don't want to curse Chris because I already took Han Solo away from him, so I might just let that shake out and instead take hero or villain.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, some major characters still on the board.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay. Does Yoda count as a hero?

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Amanda Dyer]

That's who I pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Amanda Dyer]

I pick Yoda.

[CR]

I've always kind of thought Yoda was kind of boring.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could have also picked Yoda as a villain. No, I just meant that's why I didn't pick Let Palpy Rise.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not really a Yoda guy either.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nothing against him.

[Amanda Dyer]

He seems wise even. You know, even if you have all the wisdom in the world, you can't always do the right thing in Star Wars. That's what we learn. That's the complication of Star Wars.

[Mallory Rubin]

You can't always sense the Sith rising.

[Amanda Dyer]

And he trains some important people and also my sons really like him. So at this point, I'm just drafting for the boys.

[CR]

Baby. Yoda had been in the mix.

[Amanda Dyer]

Right. But you know, as we have learned thanks to Mallory and Joanna, they're not.

[Sean Fennessey]

No.

[Amanda Dyer]

But we have learned that they are the same species, which is something that I have now heroically explained to a four year old.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can you name another member of that species?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, but there's one more because we talked about it.

[CR]

It's three people count as a species now.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, there's more than.

[Amanda Dyer]

We only know about three. We don't know very much about them. We know that Yoda, they live to be at least 900 years old old

[Van Lathan]

and inherently force sensitive as a race.

[Amanda Dyer]

Right. And we only know about three of them. I can't name the third person.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cincinnati Yaddle.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yaddle.

[CR]

She's a huge joker.

[Van Lathan]

Yaddle's her name.

[Mallory Rubin]

The women forgotten again.

[CR]

Is Yoda getting by on his sentence construction? Like, does Yoda actually have that much to offer? But he just puts it in such a Yoda.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like I'm fucked up.

[Van Lathan]

Yoda is sitting in of front. Front of.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's a lot of Yoda.

[Van Lathan]

Yoda.

[Mallory Rubin]

A lot of Yoda's feet.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yoda and Mace, they're both like.

[Sean Fennessey]

They are responsible for the fall of the Republic.

[Van Lathan]

Exactly.

[Sean Fennessey]

Straight up. I got some notes for Yoda.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, no question. The greatest teacher. Failure is beautiful. Lesson in my life.

[Amanda Dyer]

Hasn't the Republic fallen three times?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, but this is.

[Amanda Dyer]

And he's only responsible.

[Mallory Rubin]

This was the first. So it's not just he missed the rise of Palpatine. Darth Sidious is in meetings with him regularly on his Google calendar. He's like, I feel none of this very tough. And then he peaced out to Dagobah. Embarrassing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Been a bit of a flaw in

[CR]

this govern you must, you know, Embarrassing.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then perhaps honestly, worst of all, when he's training Luke on Dagobah, he's like, don't go save your friends. That is some dark, gnarly shit.

[Van Lathan]

And Luke doesn't listen because it's in his nature to go save his friends.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's part of why the echo in the Last Jedi is so good, is because he's committing the same sin as the other.

[Van Lathan]

He doesn't listen to Yoda. He goes to save his friends and does everything in danger. Save his friends. And then he does nothing.

[Sean Fennessey]

When you're young, you're idealistic, you're willing to take chances. That's the whole premise of the movies.

[Van Lathan]

Got it. Okay. I'm gonna take problematic character. And I'm inspired by CR's pick of Jabba the Hutt. Okay. Okay. So in my problematic character, I'm gonna take Emperor Sheev. Palpatine.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. And because I didn't. When we were talking problematic.

[Amanda Dyer]

Which one is that?

[Van Lathan]

He's the greatest villain in film history.

[Amanda Dyer]

They keep. They just keep upping the ante. Like so is Galactus. You know,

[Sean Fennessey]

you didn't really follow through on that in Fantastic Four.

[Amanda Dyer]

There's like a pre emperor and then there's an emperor and then, well, he's a senator.

[CR]

Then he's an emperor.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's the chance. Yeah.

[CR]

Senator chance against Palpatine Emperor. But it's all the same dude.

[Amanda Dyer]

And then somehow.

[Mallory Rubin]

But he's always Darth Sidious.

[Van Lathan]

Now let me make my case. So he's clear villain. But let me make my case for specifically problematic. Number one, A big time groomer grooms a young Anakin Skywalker from the point that he is legitimately an elementary school kid. Grooms and lies to Darth Maul, making him think that he was a Sith, when guess what? He really wasn't super mean to Darth Vader, which they don't really get into. Has Darth Vader, makes Darth Vader, has him in a weird relationship where he has to rely on him and he makes him turn against his own family. The whole thing then so problematic, so addicted to power that he can't allow anybody else to have power. He has to have it eternally. So he puts himself in a cloning situation. His consciousness is something else. You a Sith cult. To bring himself back at the end because he can't get rid of it. He's not just a villain, but he's also a bad person.

[Amanda Dyer]

He's like. He's a boomer bad boss. Is your argument. Yeah, yeah. He won't get out of the way

[CR]

and he's in a three story house.

[Van Lathan]

I almost had that joke earlier. I'm glad you got that one.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's not the first to make that joke.

[Van Lathan]

Yoda. You could make an argument for Yoda too.

[Sean Fennessey]

No question. I was actually thinking about him in this category as well.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, same.

[Sean Fennessey]

So I like that pick. Even though he's not historically amongst the culturally insensitive. Although you could say he's culturally.

[Mallory Rubin]

What is.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, no, no.

[Van Lathan]

He's racist. But what is no, no, no, he's clear. No, he's also a racist.

[CR]

You guys Yoda or Palpatine?

[Van Lathan]

Okay, like Palpatine does not allow non humans to be in the Empire. He is a racist against aliens. The only one that is in the Empire is Thrawn and he makes a special case for Thrawn. Thrawn is like the Jackie Robinson of the Empire. He makes a Thrawn because Thrawn is so brilliant. The whole Thrawn story is fucking amazing. How Thrawn got. But there are no aliens that are allowed to be in the Empire.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's actually integrate the Empire after Thrawn

[Van Lathan]

because maybe Thrawn didn't become NL mvp. But what I'm saying.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, he couldn't get on base.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Sidious is also. He's notoriously a racist.

[Sean Fennessey]

Solid pick. Ian McDiarmid.

[CR]

The longest serving.

[Sean Fennessey]

One of the more extraordinary about 35 year performances in movie history. 50 year. I mean, how many he was in movies for 50, 20 years.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's great.

[Sean Fennessey]

How old was he when he first portrayed the Emperor?

[Van Lathan]

I think he was like in his 40s, early 40s or 30s or something. He looked a lot older than what he actually was. Yeah, really amazing because when he came back in the prequels, I was like, hey, this one's pretty amazing.

[Sean Fennessey]

I absolutely love him in the prequels. I think his over the top portrayal of that guy is some of the most fun shit in those movies.

[Van Lathan]

The Jedi are trying to take over.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, who's next, Mallory?

[Mallory Rubin]

I am. I will be happily selecting my vehicle now. I will be taking the X Wing, which is somehow still here despite being one of the most iconic Star Wars.

[Sean Fennessey]

So not Luke.

[Mallory Rubin]

If we were picking specific vehicles and we had to, I would pick the T65B, aka Red 5. Luke Skywalker's X Wing.

[Sean Fennessey]

But you're just taking them all.

[Mallory Rubin]

Taking them all. Why not the X wing? Use a picture of Luke's X wing, Jack, if at all possible. That would be great. But taking them all, people are like,

[CR]

I'm having a hard time visualizing taking them all.

[Mallory Rubin]

The X Wing is iconic every time. Every time it opens and closes. Fantastic. You got your astromech with you for the ride. The best. No one has taken a droid.

[Van Lathan]

So I hate on Mando and Grogu or Mando the show. The first season of that. At the end when that X wing is crawling up. That's incredible moment I stood up and went, that's fucking Skywalker.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the best.

[Van Lathan]

And it was nuts. That's how iconic the vehicle is. You know that that's what Luke is

[Sean Fennessey]

riding around in popular culture in the last six years. That was the shit that we were like. This Matters TV show or sitting alone in our apartment during COVID It's not ideal.

[Mallory Rubin]

Got our action figures at home. Great stuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, who's next?

[CR]

You.

[Amanda Dyer]

You are.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're on the turn, man.

[Amanda Dyer]

You're last two.

[Mallory Rubin]

You have to curse. No, you've cursed, Van. Right. So you have.

[Van Lathan]

That was tough.

[CR]

You have problematic character and Wild Card.

[Sean Fennessey]

Gosh. Problematic character. I think I'll take Nute Gunray as my representative from the Trade Federation, which is a character who was portrayed in a movie in 1999 that is one of the most blatant anti Asian stereotypes I've ever seen in the history of cinema.

[CR]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

And also blockades back in the news.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, and their strategy, which was shameful and they were obviously pawns of the emperor, didn't work out. I'm hopeful that everything works out in our world, but I can't say for sure if that's going to happen.

[CR]

Even though we've been potting for a couple hours, we could add a couple of different flips in the story.

[Sean Fennessey]

You think that's possible?

[CR]

I feel like every day brings something new.

[Sean Fennessey]

Man, does Hegseth have you on speed dial?

[CR]

Me and Pete have not spoken. Jesus.

[Sean Fennessey]

Ever.

[CR]

You're sure?

[Van Lathan]

Okay. He looks like a Philippine.

[Mallory Rubin]

He sure does.

[CR]

He looks like a Chipper Jones fan.

[Sean Fennessey]

He does look like a Chipper Jones fan.

[Van Lathan]

Fucked me up with that one.

[Sean Fennessey]

These are facts.

[Van Lathan]

Tough.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like chipper Wild Card. I'm going Boba Fett now.

[Van Lathan]

I cannot believe he lasted this long.

[Sean Fennessey]

Boba Fett. I think the TV shows have undermined his legacy somewhat. I would argue even the prequels have undermined his legacy somewhat. There's the famous Patton Oswald bit where he explains, you know, you love Boba Fett, one of the coolest characters in Star Wars. And George Lucas is like, yeah. When we see him in the prequel, he's a kid. You're like, what? Which is an amazing Patton Oswalt riff. But to your point about Return of the Jedi, Boba Fett and Return of the Jedi, that was the coolest movie character of all time. When you were seven. That was. Am I crazy? Like, was that not like, who is this and what is their deal?

[CR]

I do think that there is a degree to which he gets the Sarlacc pit.

[Mallory Rubin]

He gets embarrassed.

[CR]

Exit happens real early.

[Sean Fennessey]

But we know he survives now.

[Mallory Rubin]

We know now.

[Sean Fennessey]

He survives he's nothing.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but I love him. I love Boba Fett. It was one of the. It was also kind of like the mystery as much as they gave you in Star Wars. There were still mysterious characters. Bounty hunters. What do they do? Blah, blah, blah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And what if I said he was really like an exploration of male frailty, you know, and just the idea of unable to really express yourself, hiding behind the mask, using tools to make yourself seem more powerful. He is but a man, is he not?

[Mallory Rubin]

He's but a man. The son. The clone. Son of his. Clone of.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's a. Yeah, that's exactly right. Which I didn't know when I was 7, and I'm not sure I liked it. That's how they explained that character, who

[Mallory Rubin]

is just a clone, an unaltered clone, which means very normal.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very normal, let's say.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

They cloned you?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dyer]

Oh, I think that would be unwise for everyone, because don't the clones, like, get itchy? Like, aren't they even meaner?

[CR]

Yeah, it's like a Waymo.

[Amanda Dyer]

So no one needs that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right?

[Sean Fennessey]

There's definitely like a. Yeah, there's an aggression.

[Amanda Dyer]

No one needs, like other mommy Amanda. But it already exists. But imagine it at the next level.

[Sean Fennessey]

But would you say, this is my son or my daughter if it was a pure clone of you? No. You wouldn't say that?

[Amanda Dyer]

No, I would try to nuke. It could kill the clones. There can only be one me. Yeah. It's immediately a threat to me.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[CR]

That's some crazy Ellen Ripley shit.

[Van Lathan]

That is true.

[CR]

You know what? The other day. This is not specifically about clones, but it is about autonomous fleets of things. I was standing, not in a crosswalk, but was trying to cross Hollywood Boulevard by my house, and a Waymo was coming and the Waymo sensed me and it stopped. And I was like, one day, it won't stop. You know, like, one day the software update will be like, for maximum efficiency, we have to keep going. And I'm like, that's when it gets real.

[Sean Fennessey]

But the question is, you were not using a crosswalk, so who would be in the wrong in that circumstance?

[CR]

But one day, the Waymo is going to be like, I didn't see him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, the Waymo won't say anything.

[Van Lathan]

He's not a he. Then there'll be a whole fucking cultural debate about whether or not the Waymo was right or whether or not.

[CR]

Do Waymos have feelings.

[Sean Fennessey]

You got to consider, like, the Waymo's trauma in the aftermath of murdering you in the street. Like, how are they going to go on waymoing all around the city?

[CR]

Waymo ended cr. Motherfuh.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a horror movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, it's time for me, in the last round of a draft about the Skywalker saga, to select my Skywalker family member. And I think it's fitting that we're talking about machines, because I will be selecting Anakin's chosen son. The sun he built by hand, C3PO, not R2 and R2. I'm about to expand my case.

[CR]

No, wait, Mallory, you keep putting plural to just take all lightsabers and all

[Mallory Rubin]

I can by the rules of the draft. It's up to Sean. Could have said. You have.

[Sean Fennessey]

All the people who are listening at home to the show will see this as Olim.

[CR]

You can't just be a droid, by

[Mallory Rubin]

the way, I didn't see droids. Anakin built. I will limit it. You C3PO. If. But I think.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because you could be like, I draft the Republic.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could do that, you know.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could.

[Van Lathan]

All right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Van drafted the Force. Exactly. And this has been allowed the whole time. Listen, Anakin built C3, C3PO. He built him. So I think at a minimum, for sure, 3PO is an eligible pick. He's Anakin's son. He built him with his hands. Now, I think he then adopted R2

[Amanda Dyer]

as that interpretation of the creator creation relationship selected.

[Mallory Rubin]

She says out loud, I'm a Skywalker. Right. And that was deemed eligible. Basically, like, it's my adopted family.

[Van Lathan]

She has the last name.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

C3PO's name is not C3PO.

[Mallory Rubin]

Skywalker.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't accept this. I just don't think this is valid. There's no one who built him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Amanda Dyer]

Anakin built that building.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, they do. Absolutely. They. The Kyber.

[CR]

Why couldn't you just say the lightsaber is wrong?

[Mallory Rubin]

Because he crafted him to be a member.

[CR]

But they're not family members. They're droids.

[Amanda Dyer]

Oh.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, this is a little bit of, like, a little.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay, so is every single family.

[Van Lathan]

It was a little racial.

[Amanda Dyer]

No, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because it's about the nature of the relationship.

[CR]

Do you think that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. He's like a brother. He treats them like shit. R2 and Anakin, that's a tight bond.

[Van Lathan]

R2 and Anakin is a tight bond. That's also not who you drafted.

[Mallory Rubin]

I draft. I'm trying to draft both of them. Three PO and R2 together.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is an inanimate object.

[Mallory Rubin]

Good member of the Skywalker family.

[Amanda Dyer]

Because anakin start with C3PO.

[Mallory Rubin]

He built him by hand.

[Amanda Dyer]

And he did R2 by him by the way.

[Mallory Rubin]

Came to him via Padme.

[Van Lathan]

I could argue that that's just like she.

[CR]

He got a gift. That's like. Padme was like, here's a robot.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a story about found family and

[Sean Fennessey]

that those are the.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think he would allow any

[CR]

of us to have tried this earlier.

[Zepbound Advertisement Speaker]

Earlier.

[Sean Fennessey]

Now the answer is no.

[CR]

So why don't you try and pick up the other that you knew you were going to have to draft.

[Mallory Rubin]

I've got one more thing to attempt here. I'm not done yet.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, let's see. Let's see.

[Amanda Dyer]

I'm delete3PO from the screen that we're all looking at.

[Mallory Rubin]

Listen. I believe that 3PO and R2 should have been eligible. I actually think it's a. It's a shame to get through the draft without any droids.

[Sean Fennessey]

You could have asked me beforehand if they were and I would have told you no.

[Mallory Rubin]

But you told Amanda that Ray wasn't eligible and that Ray was eligible for.

[Sean Fennessey]

Amanda and I have a long partnership that's full of. You know.

[Amanda Dyer]

This is a very different circumstance now. It survives.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that I should have been allowed to make the pick. However. Okay, but let me say something that is irrefutable, which is that this is gamesmanship.

[CR]

She started with something she knew was gonna get rejected so that we accepted this thing that also.

[Sean Fennessey]

We'll see.

[CR]

Go ahead.

[Amanda Dyer]

I'm not afraid.

[Mallory Rubin]

Anakin was conceived by the midi chlorians. They are his father. That is canon.

[CR]

Absolutely not.

[Mallory Rubin]

That is canon.

[CR]

That's like. No.

[Van Lathan]

I'm having so much fun right now. I'm back in college. That is canon.

[Mallory Rubin]

You guys are. That's a violation of canon if you say that. That can't be.

[Sean Fennessey]

Midichlorians are also an inanimate object. They are not a corporeal form on the earth. They're family member. Family members.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why isn't inanimate object. No, no. Midichlorians are alive.

[Amanda Dyer]

What are you talking about?

[Mallory Rubin]

They're alive. Definitely.

[Amanda Dyer]

What are they? What are they? It's the.

[CR]

They're like.

[Van Lathan]

They're little things that exist in symbiotic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Anakin has the highest midi chlorian count and he's was conceived. Qui Gon Jinn says conceived by the midi chlorians. That is canon.

[CR]

Does he not have parents?

[Amanda Dyer]

According to who?

[Mallory Rubin]

Shmi and the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who are the parents of midichlorians?

[Van Lathan]

Now I could also argue that it's actually.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who are the parents of midichlorians? What are their names?

[Mallory Rubin]

Why does that matter?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, explain how they're part of a family.

[CR]

Why won't they come forward?

[Van Lathan]

You know what have been interesting? It would be interesting if you'd have chose Palpatine because some people say that it was actually Palpatine.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's some comics canon that supports actually created.

[Sean Fennessey]

But he used.

[Mallory Rubin]

He used the midichlorians.

[Van Lathan]

No, can we. Can you just draft shitty Skywalker so

[Sean Fennessey]

that like, we can say you misplayed the game?

[Amanda Dyer]

No, no, no.

[Sean Fennessey]

You have shmee.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's fine. I told you yesterday I'd be fine with shme. I don't understand genuinely why the midi

[Sean Fennessey]

chlorians are not midi chlorians are not a person. This is family member. This is meant to be a person.

[Mallory Rubin]

Midichlorians are a lot. Why I don't understand.

[Sean Fennessey]

They are not a person.

[Mallory Rubin]

Have we ever seen a Midori family member?

[Amanda Dyer]

Right? That's not a family member. That's not a family member. Even by the definition of found family. No, it's an exact father.

[CR]

You had a much better organization and

[Amanda Dyer]

the Star wars canon,

[Sean Fennessey]

Because any person who comes forward and says, I stand with Mal on this, I don't ever want to talk to.

[Mallory Rubin]

I just think this is a violation of canon and I think it's. It's a shallow, narrow view of what family is. 3 PO not being eligible is. Is tragic.

[Van Lathan]

What a.

[Mallory Rubin]

What a meaningful bond that spans the entire saga.

[Amanda Dyer]

Star wars is a. Is an entire saga about bloodlines and it's kind of weird. And even the midi chlorian stuff when they're testing his blood. I was like, what is going on here? Oh yeah, this is a loser steals the blood. And many of our problems with Rise of Skywalker are that they reintroduced the bloodline stuff into what was like an opening.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're making my point for me. The problem with Rise of Skywalker is that it once again all had to be just about Palpatine and Skywalkers and those two names. I am trying to combat the crimes of Rise of Skywalker by broadening our view and our understanding of what fans family is and the bond that you would make with a droid like R2 or choosing to build and bring 3PO.

[Sean Fennessey]

Midichlorian does not have personhood, period. It's over.

[Mallory Rubin]

Family. You don't think droids in Star wars are people?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, they're not.

[Amanda Dyer]

Somehow we did end up debating terrible when life begins in Star Wars.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm fine with your outrage over your Bad idea. Will not be held.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's not mock owl reach. Droids in Star wars are main characters.

[Sean Fennessey]

Of course they are. They were eligible in other categories. Not in Skywalker.

[Van Lathan]

Family member.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because they're not members.

[Mallory Rubin]

You don't think a pet is a family member.

[Sean Fennessey]

You can't trap him with this. I would have entertained it if you had brought it to the table beforehand and discussed it with you. I don't know where I would have gone. But things that are not alive are definitely alive.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[CR]

Like, in that sense isn't so nice.

[Amanda Dyer]

Shot for a chance.

[CR]

Anakin's TIE fighter. A family member, then, like, because or

[Mallory Rubin]

no, because it's not the way he thinks of it. He thinks of that as a tool. He does have some tight relationships with some of his ships. Yeah, he does.

[CR]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

And it's saber. Did anybody bring that up? The saber is. By your definition. Oh, the Kyber crystal kind of is a little bit of a.

[Mallory Rubin]

But he's saying, R2, you're my brother, 3PO. I built you with my headset.

[CR]

He never says that, does he?

[Mallory Rubin]

Through his actions.

[CR]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

You ever heard of show don't tell?

[Sean Fennessey]

There's literally no evidence that he identifies them as family members.

[CR]

True. Not tell.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not true. Not true.

[Van Lathan]

Well, he definitely loves R2.

[Mallory Rubin]

D2.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's totally different. You know what? I love all my Blu Rays. They're not alive, and they're not in my family.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think if you pulled every listener

[Van Lathan]

in the big picture.

[Amanda Dyer]

Can we meme that one just so we have it for reference?

[Van Lathan]

He says, let's get out of here, and goes, don't forget, the droids of

[Mallory Rubin]

the big picture would say, if you said, does Sean consider Blu Rays family members? They would say, yes.

[CR]

He does not consider them anime.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm saying for the record, as the owner of said Blu Rays. They're not in my family. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

All right. Easy pick for me. Amanda. Phantom Menace.

[Amanda Dyer]

No, I already have.

[CR]

I already gave her Phantom. I did that, like, 20,000 minutes ago.

[Amanda Dyer]

And I said that that was better than receiving Rise of Skywalker, which is what you got. So I got the bad movie instead of the evil movie.

[CR]

You have to curse.

[Amanda Dyer]

Congratulations to Rise of Skywalker.

[CR]

I have to curse you for its

[Amanda Dyer]

big picture evil movie. I have to curse you with the

[Van Lathan]

movie that I don't really.

[CR]

You have to curse me?

[Van Lathan]

I have to curse you?

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I have to curse you with solo.

[CR]

That's fine.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, is that the last one on the board?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, no, I have not been cursed yet.

[Sean Fennessey]

There are a few Other movies left.

[Van Lathan]

Ah, you can't curse anybody.

[Mallory Rubin]

And Force Awaken.

[Van Lathan]

That's that shit.

[CR]

Yeah, it would be more of a curse for me, I'll tell you that.

[Van Lathan]

Revenge of the Sith would be more of a curse for me.

[CR]

Much rather watch Solo than Revenge of the Sith.

[Mallory Rubin]

You already made the pick.

[Van Lathan]

I already made the pick. I'm good with the pick. Like, he's wrong, but, yeah, I'm going to curse him with. I'm going to curse him with Solo. Solo. Whatever.

[Mallory Rubin]

Cr.

[Van Lathan]

I can't curse you with Revenge of the Sith. I like the movie too much. This is my weakest pick, but I don't fully understand the category, so, yeah, it's my weakest pick.

[Amanda Dyer]

You feel differently about the movies than other people do. So what is a curse to us is not a curse to you.

[CR]

I have Solo ranked number eight, so it's not my favorite movie, but it's certainly not in the bottom.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just, like, for clarity. The game theory is that some categories have scarcity, and some categories have too many options.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I feel you. Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

So Shmi. Someone was always gonna get Shmee.

[CR]

Well, she probably was sitting there for two hours being like, when I pull out C3PO and they all shmi. Oh, my God.

[Mallory Rubin]

But by the same token, Shmi is the mother.

[Sean Fennessey]

But by the same token, someone was always gonna get cursed with a movie that someone else thinks is pretty cool.

[Van Lathan]

Someone else thinks is cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

We don't have Star wars without Shmi. Just throwing that out there.

[Amanda Dyer]

We do not have Star wars without Shih.

[Sean Fennessey]

If I were you, I would have let police.

[Amanda Dyer]

This is also the theme of the Da Vinci Code, but for the Bible. Oh, right.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is the theme of.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's in the Louvre.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shmi, deeply wronged by Qui Gon, who was like, I'm just gonna leave you here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel pretty good about the SHMI pick.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, so you've got Solo as your curse pick.

[Van Lathan]

Yep.

[Mallory Rubin]

Amanda has to curse me.

[Amanda Dyer]

I have to curse me.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's the only one who hasn't cursed anyone, and I'm the only one who hasn't been cursed.

[Sean Fennessey]

The two films that are left on the board are Revenge of the Sith and the Force Awakens.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just FYI. Two movies I love.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

This is a big win for Mal and this.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah, I'm just not gonna give in to you on the Sith stuff.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you should do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I, like, really like both of the movies, so I'll do.

[Amanda Dyer]

I'll do Force Awakens, which you Know

[Mallory Rubin]

now I've got Kylo on my team in some capacity. Thrilling.

[Amanda Dyer]

There we go. Great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is that the final pick?

[CR]

No, I haven't.

[Mallory Rubin]

C.R. has his vehicle.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

I think I'll do.

[CR]

I'm gonna do Luke's land speeder from New Hope. The one that really is two.

[Mallory Rubin]

Isn't that ineligible? Because Amanda picks.

[CR]

But she picked the ones from Return of the Jedi. So any.

[Van Lathan]

She picked a specific speeder, though. She did.

[Sean Fennessey]

She picked speeder bikes, speeders, the desert lands.

[Van Lathan]

So that pick is in, right? That pick is in. That's final. No one picked the Star Destroyers, Eh?

[CR]

I think they're okay. They're cool the way they start. The Commies.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[CR]

Are they even. Do they have any handling like

[Sean Fennessey]

space battles Cool.

[CR]

They're cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

We saw them get up in Rise of Skywalker.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, they get fucked up sometimes, but they're kind of indicative of what the Empire is this like big cock show.

[CR]

I like gold leaders thing. I can't remember what that's called.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

If I didn't take Boba, I wanted to take Slave 1. I always thought that was a really cool ship.

[Mallory Rubin]

Had to be renamed.

[CR]

Jesus.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is it not called Slave 1 anymore?

[Mallory Rubin]

They had to rename it in recent years.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do they call it?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's a.

[Van Lathan]

Talking about spaceship. Talk about Chipper Jones over here. You talking about I love Slave One.

[Sean Fennessey]

What did they rename it?

[Van Lathan]

How do you feel about Slave 2? Like, so

[Mallory Rubin]

I think they call. Yeah. The fire spray.

[CR]

Sean, still holding out.

[Mallory Rubin]

They really don't call it that.

[CR]

Benioff and White.

[Sean Fennessey]

They woke up Star Wars.

[Van Lathan]

So the walkers, also other vehicles were ATATs. Yeah. Didn't get. Didn't get out.

[Amanda Dyer]

My husband was sure that you guys would immediately go for the ATATs.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like them when we are brought

[CR]

down by four people with some.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, this was related. Not to spoil Mando, but this was the. At. At situation. At the beginning of Mando, I was like, what's going on here?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Interesting. If you had taken Death Star and Wild Card, then you. Or in vehicle instead of Wild Card, you could have taken droids and we would have some fucking droids on the board.

[CR]

We could have taken a real Skywalker instead of trying to make inanimate objects on some family members.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have the mother who allowed the entire canon of Star Wars.

[Amanda Dyer]

Right. And that's how you've spoken about her, as do the rest of the Star wars fandom.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is great.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, so let's see.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's many honorable Mentions we could go through here. Do you want to talk through some of them?

[CR]

I'll say that I had Uncle Owen as a problematic character.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay, say more.

[CR]

He was hiding a child.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, sure.

[CR]

Why was he doing that?

[Mallory Rubin]

Didn't want to let Luke be who he was. Watto not selected on the problematic character.

[Sean Fennessey]

Watto, one assumes, would have been pretty high up there.

[Van Lathan]

Saul Guerrero.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, Saul would have been a great book.

[Van Lathan]

He's a fucking terrorist.

[CR]

Ah, he was like, good guys.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's a really interesting. To me, he's one of the examples of the way Star wars can be interesting. That's like a confrontation with what your idea of revolution is. I like that.

[Van Lathan]

Right. I mean, I fuck with him. But like, let's be honest, Saw lost it at a certain point, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

It seemed. Yes, they communicated. He went over the other. Over the line.

[CR]

Krennic's a good villain.

[Mallory Rubin]

Krennic's a good villain.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maul, not Darth Maul.

[CR]

Well, nobody took Mace. Nobody took Qui Gon. Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Qui Gon is still here. Nobody took Stormtroopers as a wildcard. Again, nobody taking droids is a wild card.

[Sean Fennessey]

Storm.

[Amanda Dyer]

Jupiter Storm.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jupiter Storm.

[Amanda Dyer]

Jupiter.

[CR]

Nobody picked Poe or Finn.

[Sean Fennessey]

Nobody picked Chewbacca.

[Mallory Rubin]

Chewbacca not being picked is tough. I like Chewbacca.

[Amanda Dyer]

That's on you guys.

[CR]

But I don't really know what's on his mind.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think if we had hero and villain as two categories, Chewie would have been selected certainly as a hero.

[CR]

Do you want to have Chewbacca? The entire time is like, ah, sucks.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's actually super tough when I get asked to do Chewbacca because I'm like, I have to do a podcast. I can't do that to my voice. Chewie not being picked, that's tough. I don't.

[CR]

If I could go back, honestly, like, I feel like Cassian. I kind of had a little bit of like a. I blacked out and I was like, I don't know who to pick here. I think I would have gone back and done Chewie if I could do it all over.

[Sean Fennessey]

What about Snoke?

[CR]

Honestly, I didn't think he was that bad. When I was watching Last Jedi again, I was like, this is actually pretty.

[Mallory Rubin]

Once again, it's a Rise of Skywalker problem at the end of the day.

[Sean Fennessey]

What about General Grievous?

[Mallory Rubin]

Grievous, I thought, could have been picked. Certainly. Hux could have been picked.

[Van Lathan]

Hux could have been picked.

[CR]

They fucked that character up in the third one.

[Sean Fennessey]

They fucked him up really bad. That pivot too that turn with him is terrible. Yeah.

[CR]

He's like, I'm a good guy, too.

[Sean Fennessey]

Captain Phasma.

[Mallory Rubin]

Phasma. Not a very good guy.

[Amanda Dyer]

I had the hologram messages on holograms.

[Mallory Rubin]

Could have been picked as a wild card. That's. Force ghosts are pretty fun.

[Sean Fennessey]

Horse ghosts. That would have been good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Jedi Temples could have been picked.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure.

[CR]

If we were going to do Prime. I was also thinking about Hero. I had Wedge in there. Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wedge.

[Sean Fennessey]

One of your old guys. Yeah, one of your original guys.

[Mallory Rubin]

I feel like I have Wedge on my team in a way because I have X wings, so that's fun.

[CR]

Now that Wedge argued that I wouldn't be allowed to have Wedge. Since you've drafted the entire aerial, probably.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you think Mace Windu is problematic?

[Van Lathan]

How so?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, he's just. In the same way that Yoda fails. He's just kind of a fool.

[Van Lathan]

He is a fool. He's a.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's the only really strong black character in the prequels, and he's made to be a fool.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I mean, they were all fools. You know what? We call them fools. But at the same time, they are insanely powerful. Sidious is just almost doubly powerful than what Mace Windu is. I mean, maybe not doubly, but like Sidious is. Is like a once in a lifetime Dark Force creation.

[Mallory Rubin]

The hubris and arrogance of the Jedi, you know, Attachment's bad, Is it?

[Van Lathan]

And they stopped listening to the will of the living Force and they started. They came be kind of like bureaucrats for the Senate. So they lost their way, which is probably another reason why they weren't listening to the will of the Force, which is why they probably couldn't see what Sidious was. Qui Gon Jinn was talking about. Listen to the will of the living force.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like Daryl Morey, right?

[CR]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, exactly.

[CR]

Too much faith in animals.

[Amanda Dyer]

Did you guys ever see the clip from, like 15 years ago when they had Ewoks on the Today show for Halloween? But the Ewoks showed up really drunk and then started moon.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did they sing?

[Van Lathan]

What happened?

[Amanda Dyer]

Have you never seen this? This is the best minute of two minutes of daytime TV that I've ever

[Mallory Rubin]

seen in my life.

[CR]

Were the tears drunk or.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah, the. The. Well, I don't actually know what was happening. I don't know about the substance intake of the people who were in Ewok costumes, but they started misbehaving and it's.

[CR]

I've never seen this.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's really. I thought about it in Wildcard. I'm glad I Took John Williams, but it. It's the single best. Like, viral video is definitely a better pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

In Wildcard. You made the right choice.

[Amanda Dyer]

Hold on. Ewoks.

[Mallory Rubin]

No one took Back to Tanks. You know, that would have been a fun one.

[Van Lathan]

Ewoks on today's show, Cantina bands.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dyer]

So everybody's in their costume.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is that cutting into John Moses Williams?

[Mallory Rubin]

Could be.

[CR]

How have I. Jawas never got picked.

[Mallory Rubin]

Jawas.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jawas. Yeah. Would you have considered Tusken Raiders problematic characters?

[Mallory Rubin]

I had them on my problematic list. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jawas are problematic the way they're treated.

[CR]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Exterminated.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Why are they doing this?

[Mallory Rubin]

Al Roker is just a speeder and speeder bike.

[Amanda Dyer]

That's fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

Speeder and speeder bike.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think they're two different vehicles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

You don't think they're two different vehicles?

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[CR]

Like one you ride.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure. Yeah.

[CR]

You straddle.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's like another swing.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think so.

[Amanda Dyer]

They were fighting. Oh, here's where he was.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, maybe.

[Van Lathan]

You know what?

[Sean Fennessey]

I was thinking about taking in Wild Cards.

[Van Lathan]

What's going on?

[CR]

Oh, you know what? Mandalorian armor, Mos Eisley's Spaceport and Wild Card.

[Mallory Rubin]

A lot of great planet specific. I mean, no one took.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe it was my city.

[Van Lathan]

Bad podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

No one took Tatum.

[Sean Fennessey]

We don't have rights to air NBC content on our airway.

[Mallory Rubin]

No one took Tatooine.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's really funny.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was going to take ilm.

[Amanda Dyer]

That's a good one.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could have been a good. A good. You pick.

[Sean Fennessey]

It would have been a dorky pick, but it would.

[Van Lathan]

But it would have George Lucas.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Yeah. Could have gone in a wild card. What's all George up to, aside from opening a museum? Well.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah, I can't wait.

[Amanda Dyer]

I think that seems like it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I heard nice things about the museum.

[Amanda Dyer]

Oh, good. Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm excited.

[Amanda Dyer]

It's alleged.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really?

[Amanda Dyer]

Opening in September.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can't wait.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what they. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, like on SC's campus, right? Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

Otherwise you won't go. You won't go to the museum.

[CR]

I'll check it out. Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[CR]

I like museums.

[Sean Fennessey]

You think he has a nice life?

[CR]

George Lucas?

[Van Lathan]

I think he has among 6, 7 billion or something like that.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not sure.

[Amanda Dyer]

Doesn't he own most of Marin County?

[Sean Fennessey]

Is that a fact?

[Amanda Dyer]

I mean. No, it's not, but. And it's probably through various LLCs if he does.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'd like to go to Skywalker. Inch.

[Mallory Rubin]

Same. Same.

[Sean Fennessey]

Would you go?

[CR]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[CR]

Sure, I'd like to. There's other ranches I'd like to visit first.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, well, Dutton, obviously, that's where we really want to go.

[CR]

Taylor's ranch in Texas.

[Van Lathan]

Like, what, like 600 acres or something?

[CR]

No, it's like halftime.

[Sean Fennessey]

Let's slow down for a second. You and Taylor are sitting together.

[CR]

Yeah. Two men trying to come up with a new idea for Star Wars. Now, that sounds about how women have gotten a little.

[Mallory Rubin]

Star wars was lost in Star Wars.

[Amanda Dyer]

That.

[CR]

Actually, me and Taylor Sheridan did.

[Van Lathan]

Star wars movie be awesome.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not against it.

[Van Lathan]

5.2 billion. Yeah, his movie would be awesome. His movie would actually be awesome to me. It would.

[Sean Fennessey]

It would.

[CR]

It would scam.

[Sean Fennessey]

Would you watch it?

[Amanda Dyer]

I'd watch all of the Star wars films for this podcast, except for Attack of the Clones, which I didn't get to.

[Sean Fennessey]

What if. What if he made a lioness in space and your son was like, I need that.

[Amanda Dyer]

I need to watch that. Or, I need to be a lioness, or I need a lioness in my life?

[CR]

Well, I'll tell you what. A lioness in your life will do wonders for you.

[Amanda Dyer]

I'm raising them. I'm raising both my sons to appreciate strong women. So that's amazing.

[Van Lathan]

Quick question for Sean.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wait till they meet Beth Dutton.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wait till they meet Beth Dutton.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sean.

[Van Lathan]

There are five directors that are worth over a billion dollars.

[CR]

James Cameron.

[Van Lathan]

Can you name them? That's. That's one.

[CR]

Steven Spielberg.

[Sean Fennessey]

Steven Spielberg.

[Van Lathan]

That's George Lucas.

[Sean Fennessey]

George Lucas, 3. Five directors that are working. Christopher Nolan for a billion dollars.

[CR]

Personal net worth.

[Van Lathan]

Net worth is over a billion.

[Amanda Dyer]

Can I ask what your sourcing is on this?

[Van Lathan]

I'm looking at this article. That's from businessinsider.com.

[Sean Fennessey]

okay, well, is Tyler Perry one of them?

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Amanda Dyer]

Tyler for sure. Right? That's a good one.

[Van Lathan]

This was from December 19, 2025. So it's fair. Fairly recent.

[Sean Fennessey]

$1 billion. There's another. This is a person who is a filmmaker. Second.

[CR]

Is it gonna be like, Brad Bird or something?

[Van Lathan]

This is a big, gigantic director that directs a big, gigantic property.

[CR]

Cameron, we said. Lucas, we said. Tyler Perry, we said. And Steven Spielberg.

[Van Lathan]

I wouldn't have thought about this guy. There must have been something in this deal.

[Amanda Dyer]

So it's a man, you're saying?

[CR]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dyer]

They won't let women direct films either.

[Van Lathan]

It's not the little fear.

[Sean Fennessey]

They just won't let women have a billion dollars. That's really the issue. Gosh, it's got to be so obvious

[Van Lathan]

that it's not that obvious, because when I saw that, I was actually surprised, but it makes sense when you think about it. When I saw it, I was actually surprised, but I was like, huh,

[Sean Fennessey]

he

[Van Lathan]

has that much bread. But it must have been in the deal for these movies that he made that he had some kind of crazy backing or First Dollar Girl Song.

[Amanda Dyer]

Not like Todd says it. Okay. I feel good that it's not Jack.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you know we were going to guess J.J. abrams.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no. It's Peter Jackson.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was.

[Amanda Dyer]

Damn it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was just going to guess when you said it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, like when I. Like when I saw that, I was like. Cause I don't know what the structure of his deal was.

[CR]

Well, he also has Weta or whatever,

[Van Lathan]

and he's got the Hobbit movies, and so he's made a lot of money and done a lot of stuff. Yeah. Peter Jackson.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's really interesting. Great trivia. I love trivia like that. Yeah, that's wonderful. Okay, how many of you guys have a billion dollars?

[Mallory Rubin]

None of us, sadly, no.

[Sean Fennessey]

Working on it.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah, not yet.

[Sean Fennessey]

What if we put all of our wealth together? Could we buy the Skywalker Ranch? I don't think so.

[Amanda Dyer]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

Probably couldn't even buy a teacup.

[CR]

Yeah, I don't think we could buy Skywalker Ranch. Trailblazers. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

How does everyone feel? You ready to recite your picks?

[CR]

I feel like I started strong. I wobbled in the middle and finished fine.

[Van Lathan]

Wobble. I feel like I did pretty good. I feel like there are a couple. There are a couple of choices in there that, like, you know, whatever.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I think you guys brought great creativity to the categories. I feel like I kind of was

[Van Lathan]

some of us maybe too much.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, one tried. All right, I'll read mine first. Since I picked first in movie, I selected the Empire Strikes Back. In Skywalker. Family member, I picked a living person named Princess Leia. In Hero or Villain, I chose Ben Solo, AKA Kylo. In the movie I was cursed with, I received Attack of the Clones from Mallory.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Sean Fennessey]

In vehicle, I chose Darth Vader's TIE fighter, which is called the TIE Advanced X1. In problematic character, I picked Nute Gunray, who runs the Trade Federation, who is a terrible stereotype. And in Wild Card, I chose one of my favorite characters of all time, Boba Fett. Mel Pretty good.

[Mallory Rubin]

In movie, I selected a new hope as my hero. In Hero or Villain, I selected Obi Wan Kenobi. My wild card Lightsabers problematic character Jar Jar Binks I received from Amanda. Not really A curse. Thank you. Star wars the Force awakens. My vehicle, X Wings, if you made me pick specifically, it would be red 5 last Luke's T65, but X wings more broadly. And then my Skywalker family member is the matriarch who allowed us, as pop culture fans, as lovers of story, to talk about this at all.

[Amanda Dyer]

Shmee.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you.

[CR]

Thank you. I honestly don't remember this person.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, Van, your third still pretty good.

[Van Lathan]

Darth Vader and hero of villain. Probably should have took him to Sky Millennium Falcon. The vehicle, the Force and wild card, Rey Skywalker. Skywalker family. Remember, remember, remember, Return of the Jedi, a movie felt like that was a steal. Darth Sidious, a groomer of children, a liar and problematic character and was cursed with just a fucking whammy. Yeah, Star the Rise of Skywalker, that fucking hurts.

[Amanda Dyer]

In Skywalker family member, I have Haunts Solo. In movie, I have the Last Jedi. In problematic character, I have the elder person in the age gap relationship and also questionable leadership tactics from Padme Amidala. Wild card, I have John Williams vehicle, I have Speeder Bikes Hero or villain, I have Yoda. And then I was cursed with the Phantom Menace, which I think is quite poor. So that was effective.

[CR]

In Skywalker family member, I took Luke Skywalker. In movie, I took Rogue One. In Wildcard, I took the Death Star. In movie I've been cursed with, I was given a Star wars story. Hero or villain, I took Cassian andor problematic character, I took the man who needs a RICO Charge, Jabba the Hutt. And in vehicle, I took Luke Speeder from a New Hope that he drives around the desert in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fun stuff.

[Van Lathan]

Fun.

[Mallory Rubin]

Only question about the presentation of it is, like, because the swap on the movie we were filming.

[Amanda Dyer]

So we're just gonna do graphic design. No.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I am curious about this because, like, I think Rise is Skywalker. It where Shawn chose to hit Van with it was like, part of, I think, the power of the pick. Like, it looks like a really high.

[CR]

You should do.

[Mallory Rubin]

And now it's a.

[CR]

You should have, like, a little fuzzy mic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Same with Phantom Menace.

[CR]

And you just walk people through everybody's pick and then do an extended monologue about why you tried to pick both. A pile of metal.

[Mallory Rubin]

It doesn't affect me. A pile of metal. The droids are indelible and inextricable from the spirit of Star Wars. Rise of Skywalker.

[Sean Fennessey]

As competitive and obnoxious as I am through all of these experiences, I do not know the winner of any of the last 10 drafts. Like, I Literally couldn't name them. So while I do respect your concern for clarity in terms of this, we've kind of evolved beyond winners, losers. Agree, Victors.

[Amanda Dyer]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Feel great.

[CR]

I agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

Had a blast.

[Sean Fennessey]

This was a good one.

[Van Lathan]

This was a great one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you, guys.

[Mallory Rubin]

What fun. Star Wars.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty cool. Mando and Grogu, we'll just do this all over again immediately after its release.

[CR]

And we just don't know the plot of this movie or, like, even the logo.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that we do now because of what we saw.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're hunting Imperial remnants. Right. They're trying to get a warlord.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's the logline that may come up. I don't want to spoil it for anybody who's excited about.

[Van Lathan]

How was the Doomsday trailer?

[Sean Fennessey]

I didn't like it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh. Oh, no.

[Sean Fennessey]

But that doesn't mean other people won't like it.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's upsetting.

[CR]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you read about it?

[Van Lathan]

Read a little bit.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you read about it?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Amanda Dyer]

Did you watch it?

[Sean Fennessey]

It's unavailable.

[Amanda Dyer]

I thought that they. Oh, they did release it.

[CR]

They have not released it yet.

[Amanda Dyer]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

It doesn't do anything you really haven't seen before.

[CR]

Is Downey's accent good?

[Amanda Dyer]

I don't think he spoke.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think he spoke either. Or if he does, it's very quiet.

[CR]

I didn't know if it was, like, high Latverian or kind of a new take on it or what.

[Sean Fennessey]

You mean, like, did he sound like Roger Rabbit or something? I mean, I look forward to both of your thoughts. And yours as well, Chris.

[CR]

It's okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Will you be seeing Doomsday?

[CR]

I will be seeing Doomsday.

[Mallory Rubin]

Will you see it in Dune on the same day?

[CR]

Sure. If it comes to that, will you

[Sean Fennessey]

pay the Infinity Vision upcharge?

[CR]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I've been looking forward to a new way of watching Marvel movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

I read it's roughly $300 more than your average ticket. Is that okay?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Any closing thoughts?

[Mallory Rubin]

Just great to share Star wars with friends.

[Van Lathan]

Love Star Wars.

[Sean Fennessey]

What a treat.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really hope Mando movie's good and that they let Grogu shine in a way that's next after Mando.

[CR]

We just don't know.

[Amanda Dyer]

Starfighter.

[Mallory Rubin]

Starfighter next year, next May, with the

[Van Lathan]

biggest star in the world.

[Mallory Rubin]

Won't have to wait long. So that's exciting.

[CR]

But, like, no more shows.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're getting a second season of Ahsoka pretty soon.

[CR]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is that the last one that's in production?

[CR]

To my knowledge.

[Van Lathan]

You're doing it Right now.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I mean the mall show is on right now. Shadowlord. So the animated shows continue and they're excellent. The mall show's really good. Really good.

[Amanda Dyer]

It is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you guys for making the time for this. You can listen to Van Lathan on seven pods.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Loud podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

Pew pew pew.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mal can hear you on House of R. House of R. Another pods. Cr. Have you. Is this your first pod?

[CR]

Yeah. This has been exciting. I've been wondering what it's all about.

[Sean Fennessey]

Real natural.

[Amanda Dyer]

Thanks, man.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's really exciting. Amanda, where can we find you?

[Amanda Dyer]

You know, just catching up on all this on all of these tabs I have open. The tabs are chronological order Skywalker family. What does Saw Gerrera do? And drunk Ewoks on Today Show. So if you need me.

[Sean Fennessey]

All good queries.

[CR]

I can't wait to see your algorithm next.

[Sean Fennessey]

The next time you see Amanda, she will be on this feed talking about the Devil Wears Prada too. And so for all that luster about Phantom Menace.

[CR]

Seen it?

[Amanda Dyer]

No. As of. As of this recording. I don't know when this is airing because we might be doing a little future recording here. Okay, well, I have seen it when people are listening to this.

[Sean Fennessey]

You will. Okay, well, and I'll.

[Amanda Dyer]

I have my outfit ready, so that's all that matters. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think we're seeing it at a Burbank amc. So I don't know what you need to wear. Oh, I see. Okay. I'll be dressing up for the screening cuz that's something that I do.

[CR]

That's daily too.

[Amanda Dyer]

Cheek.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I'll be in a. In a ball gown. Thanks so much to Jack Sanders. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh. Thanks to everybody at home. We'll see you next Friday for the Devil Wears Product two.