The Summer Movie Preview Game. Plus: David Cronenberg on ‘The Shrouds.’

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture – The Summer Movie Preview Game. Plus: David Cronenberg on ‘The Shrouds.’

Episode Details:

• Title: The Summer Movie Preview Game. Plus: David Cronenberg on ‘The Shrouds.’
• Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins
• Release Date: April 25, 2025
• Description: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins delve into the upcoming summer movie slate, engage in a fun box office and Metacritic prediction game, and feature an insightful conversation with legendary director David Cronenberg about his latest film, The Shrouds.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with Sean Fennessey and Amanda Davis introducing the show's focus on the summer movie lineup and a special segment featuring David Cronenberg’s new film, The Shrouds. They briefly touch upon recent Hollywood events and set the stage for the discussions ahead.

Notable Quote:

• Sean Fennessey [01:58]: “This episode is brought to you by the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit Card...”

Note: Advertisements and non-content sections are acknowledged but omitted from the detailed summary as per instructions.

2. New Oscar Rules Discussion

The hosts dive into the recent changes announced by the Academy Awards, highlighting the new requirement that voters must watch all contending films. They debate the practicality and potential loopholes of this rule, such as the possibility of voting delegates hiring assistants to fulfill viewing requirements.

Key Points:

• Mandatory Viewing: Academy members must watch every nominated film.
• Screeners Portal: Transition from physical screeners to a digital portal to verify viewership.
• Potential Exploits: Concerns about members outsourcing viewership verification.
• Casting Award Introduction: The Oscars are introducing a new casting category, recognizing casting directors and their teams.

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Fennessey [02:55]: “I think I should be able to vote.”
• Amanda Davis [04:06]: “Is it just. Did you click play or is it like, you know, one of the like, corporate training things...”

3. Summer Movie Preview Game

Sean and Amanda introduce a new interactive segment where they predict the domestic box office earnings and Metacritic scores for upcoming summer movies. The game rules involve guessing two data points for each film: the U.S./Canada box office gross and the Metacritic score. The difference between their guesses and the actual data will determine their scores, with the lowest total score across all movies crowning the winner.

Game Structure:

• Box Office Prediction: Estimating the total domestic earnings.
• Metacritic Score Prediction: Forecasting the critical reception score.
• Scoring: The smaller the margin between guess and actual, the better the score.

Example Round:

• Movie: Inside Out 2
  • Sean's Guess: $320 million box office, Metacritic 73
  • Amanda's Guess: $380 million box office, Metacritic 71
  • Actual: $650 million box office, Metacritic 73
  • Scores: Amanda: 282 (difference of $270 million and +2 Metacritic points)

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Fennessey [16:00]: “This is a tricky game.”
• Amanda Davis [19:14]: “So just do box office first. So the chasm between is 270 and 380 is 270.”

4. Movie Predictions and Discussions

The hosts go through a series of upcoming films, providing their predictions and discussing their rationale behind each guess. They cover a variety of genres, including superhero blockbusters, A24 comedies, horror sequels, and live-action remakes. Their discussions often mix humor with critical analysis, reflecting on past performances of similar films and casting choices.

Selected Films Discussed:

• Thunderbolts: Marvel's ensemble of less recognized characters, anticipated to perform moderately at the box office.
  • Sean's Guess: $199 million, Metacritic 64
  • Amanda's Guess: $215 million, Metacritic 61
• Friendship: An A24 comedy starring Tim Robinson and Paul Rudd, predicted to have a niche audience.
  • Sean's Guess: $12 million, Metacritic 77
  • Amanda's Guess: $22 million, Metacritic 80
• Final Destination Bloodlines: The latest installment in the horror franchise, expected to leverage its established fan base.
  • Sean's Guess: $46 million, Metacritic 44
  • Amanda's Guess: $42 million, Metacritic 62
• Lilo and Stitch Live-Action: Directed by Dean Fleischer-Camp, aiming for nostalgic appeal.
  • Sean's Guess: $180 million, Metacritic 57
  • Amanda's Guess: $218 million, Metacritic 74

Notable Quotes:

• Amanda Davis [25:14]: “I was, I was swimming in cinema...”
• Sean Fennessey [22:15]: “Premiered next week.”

5. Highlight Conversation: David Cronenberg on The Shrouds

A significant portion of the episode features a conversation between Sean Fennessey and Adam Naiman about David Cronenberg's latest film, The Shrouds. They explore the film's themes of grief, technology, and paranoia, delving into Cronenberg's artistic intentions and stylistic choices.

Key Discussion Points:

• Personal Significance: The Shrouds as Cronenberg’s most personal film, reflecting his own experiences with grief.
• Technological Intrusion: Exploration of how technology invades personal spaces and relationships.
• Grief and Obsession: The protagonist's inability to let go of a deceased loved one through technology.
• Eroticism and Humor: The intertwining of serious themes with elements of humor and eroticism.
• Cinematic Style: Cronenberg’s unique approach to storytelling, balancing absurdity with profound emotional depth.

Notable Quotes:

• Adam Naiman [130:18]: “Filmmaking is changing a lot because of the combination of COVID and Netflix...”
• David Cronenberg [133:36]: “It's just observing the way things are. If people are finding that to be sinister, so be it.”
• Sean Fennessey [137:08]: “There's this ongoing dialogue among movie fans that a lot of the great filmmakers who are getting older are not making nearly as many contemporary pieces because you have...”

Insights from Adam Naiman:

• Art as Observation: Cronenberg views filmmaking as a way to observe and reflect on current societal behaviors rather than making prophetic statements.
• Technological Realism: The technology depicted in The Shrouds is grounded in current advancements, making the film resonate with contemporary audiences.
• Emotional Processing: The film delves into how individuals cope with loss and the lengths they go to reconnect with deceased loved ones, showcasing a blend of vulnerability and obsession.

6. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Content

The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on the Summer Movie Preview Game, acknowledging the fun and competitive spirit it brought to the show. They also hint at future episodes, including deeper dives into specific film genres and more engaging content.

Notable Quotes:

• Sean Fennessey [160:21]: “We hope people see it.”
• Amanda Davis [160:44]: “To it, maybe I'll fire it up. I'll at least, you know, take a gander.”

Future Teasers:

• Next Episode: Breakdown of a series of action films, including The Accountant 2, A Working Man, The Amateur, Gareth Evans' Netflix film Havoc, and possibly G20.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Big Picture expertly balances entertainment with insightful analysis. Hosts Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins engage listeners with their Summer Movie Preview Game, offering predictions and thoughtful discussions on a wide array of upcoming films. The highlight conversation with Adam Naiman provides an in-depth look at David Cronenberg’s The Shrouds, exploring its intricate themes and Cronenberg’s enduring impact on the film industry. For movie enthusiasts who missed the episode, this summary encapsulates the vibrant energy and critical perspectives that make The Big Picture a must-listen for cinephiles.

Final Notable Quote:

• Sean Fennessey [130:16]: “David Cronenberg thank you for the films. Thank you for the time.”

Transcript

[Rob Harvilla]

Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 Songs that Explain the 90s. Except we did 120 songs and now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts. 2000 to 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, JLo, Kanye. Sure. And now the show is called 60 Songs that Explain the 90s. Colon, the 2000s. Wow, that's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me. That's 60 songs that explain the 90s. Cole in the 2000s preference, preferably on Spotify.

[Sean Fennessey]

This episode is brought to you by the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit Card. This is an ad for the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mom or grabbing a coffee with your dog, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply. Season 1 of Andor had critics calling it the best Star wars series yet. Season two of the Emmy nominated series is now streaming on Disney. Follow Cassian Andor as he embarks on a path from a rebel to a hero.

[Rob Harvilla]

Starring Diego Luna and from creator Tony Gilroy, writer of Michael Clayton and the Born Identity. Season two of Andor is now streaming.

[Sean Fennessey]

Only on Disney plus. I'm Sean Feny.

[Amanda Davis]

I'm Amanda Davis and this is the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Big Picture, a conversation show about our summer movie preview and also grief.

[Amanda Davis]

Great.

[Sean Fennessey]

Later in this episode is it do.

[Amanda Davis]

We need the also?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, I don't know. We're gonna find out as we explore the summer box office ideas this year. Later in this episode, I do have a conversation with David Cronenberg, the legendary Canadian writer director. That'll be a very different part of the conversation from the one that you and I are about to have. His new film is the Shrouds. It's an examination of grief, it's paranoia, and the way technology has invaded our souls. Cronenberg is a master. A great interview. It was great to chat with him. Before my talk with him, I chatted with Adam Naiman about the Shrouds and about Cronenberg's career, what it means to us. Please stick around for both of those things. But first, Amanda, we got some Oscar rules. Some new Oscar rules.

[Amanda Davis]

They're making everyone watch the movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

We have Been fucking watching them and now they got to watch them.

[Amanda Davis]

So I did. I mean, yes, that's correct. And once like we should be allowed to vote. We do the work, et cetera. All of this is true.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think I should be able to vote.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, I mean, I think I should, but we do the work. But I did have like a, a moment of sympathy for the, the academy of voters who take it seriously. When I thought about how I am very often just like crushing short films on Vimeo, like three hours before we podcast our predictions to see everything. And I'm it. This does add adding in, you know, it was always mandatory. It's like they're gonna have to work a little bit harder. And I know that it's work. It does take time.

[Sean Fennessey]

For the 96 years of the Academy Awards, there was an unwritten rule that you should watch all of the movies before you vote. We learned this week that the Academy announced a handful of new rules. The most significant or at least the noisiest of which was the fact that you do in fact have to watch everything. Now, not only do you have to watch it, but there is going to be a system in which you clarify that you have watched all the films that are contending for the prizes. One way to do that, of course, is that the Academy has this screener portal that has fully replaced the physical screeners that were sent to Academy members. Pretty easy to check if someone's watched a movie in its entirety on the portal.

[Amanda Davis]

Obviously this also raises some questions, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

How so? Like what do you mean fast forwarding?

[Amanda Davis]

Fast forwarding.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think 2x is a possibility on there. Or 1.5x.

[Amanda Davis]

Is it just. Did you click play or is it like, you know, one of the like corporate training things where they like make you sit through whatever so you don't question share like State secrets even there that's. It's possible to.

[Sean Fennessey]

They should have a quiz at the end of every movie the way that you do often in those mandatory trainings.

[Amanda Davis]

You don't have to watch the trainings to ace the quiz.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's well, but even still, you should have to press the buttons to complete it. So we at least know someone sat there.

[Amanda Davis]

I'm really glad that we're able to at least talk about how sadistic that process is.

[Sean Fennessey]

How many high powered people will pay assistants or interns to watch the films on their behalf, what percentage.

[Amanda Davis]

Or at least like cue them up or at least like hit play. I mean they should do it.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's going to be Running rampant.

[Amanda Davis]

But then it's also. How many people care enough that, like, that's the other question.

[Sean Fennessey]

They want to be able to vote because they want to be able to.

[Amanda Davis]

Vote for their friends, but I know they want to vote for their friends, but. So they may do that in, like, the big categories, but it just means that, like, no one will be voting in the shorts, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not sure.

[Amanda Davis]

They're like. Are they paying someone to, like, click play five times?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what I'm saying.

[Amanda Davis]

I guess so. That seems like a lot of work.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, I mean, you know, these people have multiple assistants. You know, that's true. They've got all of them.

[Amanda Davis]

Because that's the other thing. So the other way that you can prove that you have seen a film is that you. If you go to an Academy screening, you then fill out a form attesting where and when.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Or a guild screening.

[Amanda Davis]

Or a guild screening where and when you saw it.

[Sean Fennessey]

So does that mean if you went to a movie theater when a movie was released, that doesn't count?

[Amanda Davis]

I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

And the people that tend to line up around the block in order to get their, you know, free appetizers and their guild screening, which I love a free appetizer as well, but they don't have assistance. They're there, like, trying to game the system. So we'll. I guess they'll just keep going and fill out the form.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think if you are willing to take the time to fill out a form. You know what I hate to do is fill out a form. I filled out many a form in my day.

[Amanda Davis]

I mean, me too. But honestly, it seems a lot easier than paying someone to click something.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, well, that's true, but that's just a testimony to the fact that you and I don't have people like that in our lives to do that work for us.

[Amanda Davis]

Here is the thing also, I was just imagining, like, we could get a TaskRabbit. You know, you want them to have.

[Sean Fennessey]

Access to your Academy portal screening.

[Amanda Davis]

That's. I think that that is, like, the thing I would be the least worried about.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is actually a very private. That would be a very private source for me.

[Amanda Davis]

I know that for you, you're the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Only person I have ever granted Screening.

[Amanda Davis]

Screening. That's really nice. Thank you so much. I hope no one from your various guilds are listening. But an incredible service that they provide. So the question about the form is, are they going to be fact checking the form?

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, I mean, who has Time for these things, you know, like, how are we going to enforce these rules, respectively.

[Amanda Davis]

What else is the Academy doing? The museum is built.

[Sean Fennessey]

The museum's. That's not true. The Academy does a lot, actually. I know, but I don't know if they have the time to do this, this cut, this level of paperwork, this banal paperwork that they've now added on top. Sure.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

So, like, people are going to be looking at all the documents that confirm the date and time for the SAG screening that occurred on September 13th.

[Amanda Davis]

I don't know. I was wondering if, like you then like check in at the SAG screening and then they like cross reference. I mean, it doesn't seem like.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sounds like they need an app. Sounds like they need an app and I will design that app and I will become a millionaire.

[Amanda Davis]

Anyway, to me, obviously, filling out the form, just checking the guild screenings and being like, nope, I went, here is the way to go.

[Sean Fennessey]

We got to get somebody from the BAFTAs on. Because the BAFTAs already does this. They already double check what they do.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, they do this. But then they do 45 other crazy things.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, I don't want you to.

[Amanda Davis]

And they've never nominated Denzel Washington. So, you know, it's like you win some, you lose some.

[Sean Fennessey]

We won't be calling Jim BAFTA to come talk to us about this. There's also some additional new rules for the Academy for this coming Oscars. This will be the first year for the casting Oscar. I just brought this up to Chris because Sinners, you know, which has been a complete sensation this week, feels like a pretty ripe potential nominee in the casting category. So the casting category will nominate potential casting directors and the folks who work on their team via the casting directors branch at the nomination stage. So the way they'll do it is they'll review the eligible films. They'll vote to Shortlist up to 10 titles. Shortlist very hot these days. Based on the level of creative input and collaboration demonstrated during the casting process, the shortlist will then be featured in dedicated Bake off events where branch members will view 5 minute reels and participate in a Q and A with the casting directors. Then casting branch members who have viewed all 10 will vote to select five nominees. Does this make sense?

[Amanda Davis]

Not totally.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

I mean, we like yada yada. The first sentence is just like, I don't know, we'll pick some people. The casting directors branch. So everyone will review eligible films, all films, and vote to shortlist up to 10 titles. Okay, so just, just open season based on the Level of creative input and collaboration demonstrated during the. Okay, so based on. My friend called me. That's fine. Yeah, that's fine.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who do in how we make, how we arrive at all this stuff.

[Amanda Davis]

After that, it's like, then there will be a book report, and then people will vote like they do and many other things. That's fine. You know, that's how they don't. They do a similar thing for visual effects.

[Sean Fennessey]

They do.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah. So that's. That seems great. I'm thrilled that this award is being added. And I'm. And I think casting directors are really deserving. This is making it apparent to me that one flaw here is that, like, an appeal of the casting award is that you would then have all the dynamite casts there and a part of the. The process. And it's like, I know it's not an ensemble award, but we're always talking about, you want more people and recognizable people on the awards. And it doesn't seem like the process is really, you know, you're not getting any more stars. We need more famous people.

[Sean Fennessey]

To me, I think I'm a little bit split on that, because I think that some movies, like Anora is not riddled with stars, but it was one of the best cast movies of 2024. So to me, I don't think this is necessarily the best place just to get stars. I think it could potentially include more stars, and it could have the same effect that the SAG Ensemble award has. But I don't want that to be at the expense of. I don't want it to be exciting. Discoveries are a big part of the casting work. Right. When you find someone and you get them in front of a great filmmaker. So how do we balance that?

[Amanda Davis]

No, it's. I misspoke. It's not stars. It's just the discovery is the famous part, is the exciting part, but, like, part of the find is the other person, you know, so you want. You are, like, when you're responding to casting, you are, like, responding a little bit to the performance as well as the putting of the people together. And, like, both are really important and both should be recognized.

[Sean Fennessey]

But, you know, how do we determine this art form, what casting is, who's good at it? What does it mean to be good at it?

[Amanda Davis]

And I'm also just like, I'm thinking about the award, and it's like, best casting. And then, like, you know, if Anora won this year, and then you don't get to see anyone from Anora who is in the cast, he'd Be like, a little disappointed on stage. I'm just thinking about the show.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a fair point, that's all. They're gonna have to find creative ways to produce that award on the show. Cinematography is also being added to the shortlist process, which means a great number of the awards categories are now being shortlisted. There's some AI guidance. I would not describe this as a rule. I would describe this as a rebuttal to the faux controversies of films like the Brutalist and Emilia Perez reportedly using AI technologies.

[Amanda Davis]

This is just. This is nothing.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is what was shared. The use of generative AI or other digital tools will neither help nor hinder a film's chances of being nominated. Instead, voters are instructed to evaluate the degree of human creative authorship involved. I'll tell you what that reminds me of. When there's testimony in open court and then a lawyer determines that this testimony is not valid and objects and the.

[Amanda Davis]

Judge is like, ignore it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Please disregard that expert witness's testimony. It is not valid in this courtroom.

[Amanda Davis]

So I'll be honest. Do we know that that regularly happens in courtrooms in a real way?

[Sean Fennessey]

I have not spent a lot of time in courtrooms.

[Amanda Davis]

That's a very, very useful, like, dramatic.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a screenwriting trick.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's an amazing version of it in the Verdict. One of the most infuriating scenes in movie history is when Paul Newman interrogates a woman who provides just tremendous information for his case, and then immediately Milo O'Shea debunks it. Anyway, moving on. AI, this, what I'm reading here is that it's very good and you should use it. Is that. Do you think that's what the academy.

[Amanda Davis]

Means to say, just like. Just like every other company. What is with everyone being like, hey, and now you can have this with AI? Like, what made you think I wanted that?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know.

[Amanda Davis]

It's really, really weird.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're going to send you to Silicon.

[Amanda Davis]

Valley for a few weeks, leading with it.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're going to knock on every door.

[Amanda Davis]

You pay more money for AI to, like, do a bad job. I don't want that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is there a specific example you'd like to cite?

[Amanda Davis]

I mean, every. Like Apple, my Google, you know, like, literally everything.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, but what. What about the more money part?

[Amanda Davis]

I don't know. It just always. Everything's getting more expensive. I understand. That's inflation and we live in hell, among other reasons.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you think we should do about that?

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, you know, what do you think.

[Sean Fennessey]

We should do with the interest rates freeze Them, raise them, lower them. What do you want to do?

[Amanda Davis]

I just. I want to go back in time.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Also coming in 2028, which we have not had a chance to discuss, even though this happened some two plus weeks ago while you were away, there will be a stunt design Oscar instituted for the films of 2027.

[Amanda Davis]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

So, gosh, we've made a lot of episodes where we've said that this is something that should exist. Real hobby horse of mine, personally, for about 10 years. And I'm delighted that they're doing it. I like the note that you made about this.

[Amanda Davis]

I mean, we just. They, I, I think they will now make another mission impossible just to get one of these. They have to. And, and I do think so. It'll be stunt design and of course, the stunt designers. But I do think that they will figure it out so that Tom Cruise is the stunt designer and he can get his Oscar. Like Tom Cruise can actually get his Oscar. All we have to. He just has to stay alive until 2027.

[Sean Fennessey]

Tom Cruise turns 63 in two months. So that means by 2028 he's gonna be 66.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. But you know, so that the award is given out in 2028 for the films of 2027. We know that they spend a lot of time making these movies. So he could be like 60. He could be 63 when the stunt is filmed.

[Sean Fennessey]

Tom wouldn't accept the Oscar. He would give it to the guys who were the real stunt designers. I don't think that's his move.

[Amanda Davis]

He needs an Oscar. Come on.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's only a glory hog when he's explaining motion smoothing. That's the only or advocating for seeing movies in movie theaters.

[Amanda Davis]

No, he's literally making his own film school that only Glenn Howell can see. I mean, I just can't wait.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's great that this is happening. I think how it reminds me a lot of the casting Oscar, which is sort of like, how do we determine what is a great stunt design and execution, which I assume is a part of this experience. But I'm excited that this will be a showcase for great and exciting movie scenes from that year and certainly something that the telecast could use. Are you ready to do our summer movie preview?

[Amanda Davis]

I sure am.

[Sean Fennessey]

We've never done this before. I've come up with a new game. I don't know what the stakes of the game are. Perhaps they're just pride.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

But here's the game. It's.

[Amanda Davis]

I've still never. Neither of us has ever Collected on an Oscar.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's on you to collect your most recent thing.

[Amanda Davis]

I thought about the last time I was at your house.

[Sean Fennessey]

What was my. What did I.

[Amanda Davis]

You are going to make me watch a weird movie movie in a group setting.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have just the answer. It's all in one night. You can reorganize all day and then I'll force you to watch a weird movie at night in my. All in my dungeon. How does that sound?

[Amanda Davis]

No, you were gonna, like, arrange a screening.

[Sean Fennessey]

Where? Where am I gonna do that? No, like, you want to watch, like, solo screening room by yourself.

[Amanda Davis]

Oh, no, like, and other people could. Yeah, like a big picture screening. I can't believe you don't remember this. That's fine. You don't have to.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure, I'll do it. Sounds good. I'm in.

[Amanda Davis]

Fine. We don't have to watch a weird movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, you will. You will. No, I think you should watch it. Here's what we'll do. You'll reorganize my entire physical media collection in whatever way you choose. If you choose to color code it, so be it. It's gonna take a long ass time.

[Amanda Davis]

I know.

[Sean Fennessey]

There are thousands and thousands of discs in that room. In addition to that, once you've completed it, you'll be able to pose in front of one of the shelving spaces and we'll post that on social media.

[Amanda Davis]

Great.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then once that's completed, after raffling off 10 individual tickets to various listeners, you'll have to sit with them and watch Zulawski's possession.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. Okay, great.

[Sean Fennessey]

But in addition, you cannot communicate with any of the people in the room. They may want to talk to you, but you're not allowed to speak to.

[Amanda Davis]

Them, like, until it's over or at all.

[Sean Fennessey]

Until it's over.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. Like, is every. Are you just going to, like, chaperone everybody else on my voice?

[Sean Fennessey]

Everyone will be wearing a gimp mask during the screening. Okay, let's do this. Game.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fake game. But I think it's a fun idea. Boom or bust. That's what we always talk about with big summer movies. A lot of them are blockbusters. Not all of them, but a lot of them. And they're competing against each other over this summer. Last year, as I was looking back at the 2024 Summer Slate. Not the best. No, not my favorite. Some fun movies. A handful of movies that were very big. But I'm trying to figure out whether or not last year is the new normal in terms of the size and scope of the movies. Or if it was just a funky year post strike and the slate didn't seem that strong and a lot of stuff got pushed into 25. So the way that we will be measuring this game is with two data points. The first is our domestic box office prediction. How much money will this make in the United States and Canada this summer? The second is Metacritic score, not Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic, which I find to be the more accurate reflection of. Of critical enthusiasm for a movie. So the margin difference from your guesses to the final data points will determine your score for the film. The lowest total score, once we add up all the movies we're going through, will determine the winner. Okay, so here's what I mean. Let's say, for example, let's use an example from 2024. Inside Out 2. You could guess, I think that movie will make $380 million in America. And I'll say, oh, I think 320. Pixar's been on a cold streak.

[Amanda Davis]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Doesn't seem great. It made $650 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Smash. Smash sensation. Bigger than we ever could have guessed. So that chasm between your guess and the Metacritic guess. Which, let's. What do you think the. What do you think the Metacritic score is for in 2002?

[Amanda Davis]

So just do box office first. So the chasm between is 270 and 380 is 270. 270. And then my metacritic guess would have been 71.

[Sean Fennessey]

Good guess. Let's see what it is. The Metacritic score is 73.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. Plus two.

[Sean Fennessey]

So take two. So you've got a total score of $282. 282. That's your score for that movie.

[Amanda Davis]

280 or 270?

[Sean Fennessey]

270. Excuse me. 272. Mine would be significantly worse than that because I guess that it would make $320 million. So there's large numbers in play for big movies. So the big movies are the most important ones to guess. But we'll also be talking about smaller films where there will be smaller box office and potentially higher Metacritic scores with wider gaps depending on how we think the films are going to do. So it's a tricky game.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Required a bit of study.

[Amanda Davis]

It did.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you spend a lot of time focusing on it?

[Amanda Davis]

I did once. Once I got the assignment, as you know, I always do my homework. I did also spend some time doing this while watching A Working man, the recent Jason Statham film.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, I haven't seen it yet.

[Amanda Davis]

Which was an incredible, you know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, so you were really locked in as A working man.

[Amanda Davis]

I was swimming in cinema, you know, and I was having, like, the full American experience at the box office in my room.

[Sean Fennessey]

One thing I want to note for this game. No streaming movies. Streaming movies don't have box office. So that means another simple favor we won't be discussing. Okay, it means Fear Street Prom Queen, which is the horror movie on Netflix. We won't be discussing Jesse Armstrong's feature film Mountainhead.

[Amanda Davis]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not Fountainhead. Mountainhead, which is about four billionaires coming together amidst a crisis of some kind. Did you watch a trailer for this movie?

[Amanda Davis]

No.

[Sean Fennessey]

Steve Carell.

[Amanda Davis]

I'm just gonna watch it. I'm with Chris on trailers.

[Adam Naiman]

Ron, Seth, Robert.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who are the other? Jason Schwartzman, my guy. And who is the fourth?

[Amanda Davis]

Not just yours.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not just my. Oh, Corey Michael Smith, of course. From May, December and Saturday night. So interesting quartet of guy. It's sort of like the CEO of Meta, the CEO of X, the CEO of Apple. Like, that's what it seems like it's meant to be.

[Amanda Davis]

I sell you AI.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Heads of State, an Amazon movie in which John Cena plays the president. The Old Guard 2 coming to Netflix, Happy Gilmore 2, and then the animated film. Fixed. None of these movies are eligible for our summer movie preview game.

[Amanda Davis]

You just reminded me. Have you seen G20 yet?

[Sean Fennessey]

I have. I watched it.

[Amanda Davis]

I really. I need to watch it.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, you don't.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, I just. Viola Davis plays the President. I'm interested.

[Sean Fennessey]

Man, I wish it was better.

[Amanda Davis]

I mean, sure, so don't we all?

[Sean Fennessey]

I really wish it was better. I wish they gave her more to do, frankly.

[Amanda Davis]

Do you think it could be eligible for next week's episode?

[Sean Fennessey]

I do.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll check it out as well. It's. I mean, they're in the same realm of. Of experiences, for sure. 2024 data points. Nine movies crossed $100 million domestically last summer. I already mentioned Inside out, too.

[Amanda Davis]

Last summer. Last summer, not overall.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Amanda Davis]

I was like, I'm looking at a really different list than you last summer.

[Sean Fennessey]

So what do you think is the other $600 million movie from last summer, other than Inside Out 2? Pretty easy.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, it is pretty easy, though. I don't know if I have it at 600 million personally, but that's just me.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is it?

[Amanda Davis]

Oh, Superman.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, last year.

[Amanda Davis]

Last year. Oh. Oh, last year. Deadpool.

[Sean Fennessey]

Deadpool and Wolverine. Yes.

[Amanda Davis]

I'm focused on the future.

[Sean Fennessey]

I understand we're about to get there. Two original movies were in that $100 million cohort last summer.

[Amanda Davis]

I have the list open but if you're watching on video. I'm looking up. So I'm not looking at my computer while I'm.

[Sean Fennessey]

Look at me. You don't have to look up. You can look at me.

[Amanda Davis]

No, but I'm thinking. So if you're making.

[Sean Fennessey]

But if I look at you, then I will. You won't be able to think if.

[Amanda Davis]

You'Re making weird faces. And this is. This is like Blackjack all over again.

[Sean Fennessey]

Stop.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. Two original movies. I was studying this all day. Over. Over what?

[Sean Fennessey]

Over 100 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay, so it just doesn't count, Right?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's considered a Legacyquel.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, I know, I know. I'm aware of that. That's why I said doesn't count. Two original movies. Over 100 million. Was one of them. Horror movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Neither of them were a horror movie, though I found one of them absolutely horrifying.

[Amanda Davis]

I don't remember.

[Sean Fennessey]

It ends with us.

[Amanda Davis]

Oh, sure, yeah. Original.

[Sean Fennessey]

An adaptation.

[Amanda Davis]

But was that the summer or was that.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was August.

[Amanda Davis]

It was late August.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. And if John Krasinski's. If.

[Amanda Davis]

Sure. We saw both of those together.

[Sean Fennessey]

We did. It was special. Let's talk about 2025. It's a lot of movies. We're starting with Thunderbolts. Yeah, we're seeing it next week.

[Amanda Davis]

We are.

[Sean Fennessey]

I've seen a handful of movies on this list. Not a lot. Not a lot. Maybe I have a little bit of a leg up on you for the movies I've seen, but probably not too much, to be honest with you. Thunderbolts May 2nd.

[Amanda Davis]

You haven't seen the Phoenicians game, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

I have seen the Phoenicians.

[Amanda Davis]

What the fuck?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know what to tell you.

[Amanda Davis]

Focus. It's Focus, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I was invited to see the film.

[Amanda Davis]

It's fine.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't think that that's really gonna give me anything.

[Amanda Davis]

You can invite me to the Pride and Prejudice party, so that's fine.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you think the issue is there? Why do you think you're not getting the invite?

[Amanda Davis]

I've been incredibly supportive of Focus and Wes Anderson and Downton Abbey, even though you won't bring Matthew Goode back.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thunderbolts. Okay, Box office now. Marvel, obviously in an imperiled state. This is a big summer for them. They've got two films this summer. This is the first of the two. The name recognition is significantly lower on these characters, even though they've all appeared in other movies, with the exception of one or two. Comes to us from the team that made Beef, the acclaimed Netflix show. What's your guess on box office?

[Amanda Davis]

So I initially did this very low and kept revising it up.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

I've been using comps.

[Sean Fennessey]

Me as well.

[Amanda Davis]

Sure. I mean, what else are you gonna do? Even though, like, I think that that's a garbage way to do business or live life, but how else are you gonna make Beth?

[Sean Fennessey]

I know what you mean. Yeah.

[Amanda Davis]

Thank you. So my original, I just went with a Black Widow comp. But and then revised it up a little bit because Black Widow was still pandemic. Pandemic. And like, I believe day and date or various. So I'm going with 215 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

So I went under that.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I went 199.

[Amanda Davis]

So I told you. I. But we're pretty close.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're pretty close. To me. It's actually not even necessarily a qualitative guess. There. There is a whole stretch of movies in the last three years in the Marvel universe that have significantly, quote, unquote, underperformed. Probably the Marvels is the most notable of those because it only made $84 million. I think that Captain Brave New World eroded a little bit more trust among the normies. And since this movie is kind of selling against Sebastian, Stan and Florence Pugh, who we love but are not huge stars, I think a little bit lower. What'd you have for Metacritic?

[Amanda Davis]

What do I have? 61.

[Sean Fennessey]

I had 64.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think this is going to get some polite reviews.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think people are going to be like, hey, this is not bad.

[Amanda Davis]

Metacritic is interesting because I. I agree with you that it is a more accurate representation of critical sentiment and, like, maybe has, like, a bit more nuance. But that does mean that everything is. Almost everything's in like a 15 point range because people are like, well, I liked some parts of this, but it wasn't perfect. So. Xyz.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. It's use of nuance is actually complicated in this environment. Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

I think it's going to come down to, like, two points.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't. But it's fun to think that it might.

[Amanda Davis]

Sure. You're right. Every point counts.

[Sean Fennessey]

You never know. And the fact that I know that you've done your homework means that we're gonna have. It'll be interesting mixing it up. You and I are usually pretty close in these games. We're very rarely, like, stomping each other out.

[Amanda Davis]

That's true. But I mean, this could get weird.

[Sean Fennessey]

It could get weird. Okay. Number two is friendship.

[Amanda Davis]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which is the new a24 comedy that played at the Toronto Film Festival last year. Stars Tim Robinson of I Think youk Should Leave Fame and Paul Rudd. It is a movie that I can see the marketing has just kicked in. A24 just announced. They're selling a hat, a corduroy cap that says male friendship on it. Just seen the movie this week. It is about male friendship. I'm sure you got invited to that. What are you talking about? Check your email.

[Amanda Davis]

Someone else in my home. I won't name any names. Got to see Materialist this week, and it's just kind of like they let.

[Sean Fennessey]

Knox see Materialist before you. Interesting.

[Amanda Davis]

He does like the Pedro Pascal Apple commercial.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's the only one Friendship I liked quite a bit. I do have some concerns about its commercial process. Sure. Of course it is. If you've seen I think you should leave.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, it is.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think you should leave Coded, which I know a lot of people love and I know is a real cult hit on Netflix. But as a like, let's leave our house and spend $100 kind of proposition, this is a little challenging. What'd you go with for box office?

[Amanda Davis]

So I have. I think I'm being generous here with 22 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I want 12 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not trying to undermine the movie, but I think it's a little bit of a tough sell.

[Amanda Davis]

I. I agree. I think my comp here was I went with, like, the Blink twice. Like a nor. Like, I was looking. I've been looking mostly at 2024, but I think there's something about the Paul Rudd of it all and, like, a couple recognizable names. And, like, it is gonna be like, a quote, unquote, cool movie. You know, there, as you mentioned, there's an A24 hat, so I believe in them.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would say there was more laughing in the press screening that I went to than in any press screening I've been to in, like, five years. And it is extremely funny. It just needs to kind of catch a wave of word of mouth. And we'll see if it does.

[Amanda Davis]

I think it can.

[Sean Fennessey]

I hope it does. I'm underselling it a little bit. Okay, so Metacritic, 80. I have 77.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're pretty close. Final Destination Bloodlines. This comes out on May 16th. This is, I believe, the sixth installment in the Final Destination series.

[Amanda Davis]

It's been like 15 years or something.

[Sean Fennessey]

A long stretch since the last movie. Now, I love these movies. CR and I love these movies. We are planning to do a Final Destination kill rankings. All of the major kills on this pod when this film comes out, I've yet to see It.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. We did see a scene at Cinemacon that was really, really funny. It was really good.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wonderful.

[Amanda Davis]

And maybe is influencing what's going on with my.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, that's interesting because I actually went a little lower on this. Only because of the time of. They're dumping this movie right into a very competitive corridor.

[Amanda Davis]

I didn't. I don't think I went crazy. I did 42 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. I did 46 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like this is a reliable known brand.

[Amanda Davis]

Totally.

[Sean Fennessey]

It can have like an Absolutely like 19 million dollar opening weekend.

[Amanda Davis]

Exactly.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then it will go down. But it can hang in for a little while. Okay, so we're on the same page there. Metacritic score horror movie 62. I have 44.

[Amanda Davis]

Oh, wow, that's rude. See, I feel like this is tipped back over into. We appreciate what they're doing here. Like the fact that you and Chris are. Are coming and like taking the artistry of the kills seriously. There is going to be like a positivity and it'll be like a real. It is what it is. But like we really like it. Which actually does code a little bit higher in reviews in a Metacritic way.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. You've tapped into an idea that I have kind of been wanting to do an episode about which is sort of like as folks our age slide into more prominent roles as critics and voices that contribute to these kinds of scores that for lack of a better phrase, the poptimism that invaded music criticism 15 years ago is like such a big part of movie experience now.

[Amanda Davis]

Oh, it's like it's genre ism for sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

And that genreism is. I don't know if it can boost.

[Amanda Davis]

A movie like this for certain genres, but. But horror is absolutely one of them.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is. But if it's not quote unquote elevated horror, if it's not an A24 horror movie, it doesn't get as much of a bump as it would.

[Amanda Davis]

You mean critically or respect wise?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I think like still studio franchise horror still kind of gets kicked.

[Amanda Davis]

Like yes and no. But I think that's like, you know, it's a good testament in academic land. And I think, you know, more and more of the people who are going to see horror movies, which is a growing group of people. Not a growing, but I mean just like a large and still expanding.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a huge part of the movie going audience right now. Yeah. I think as we're seeing this week.

[Amanda Davis]

It reaches all audiences.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

And I think most of them do.

[Sean Fennessey]

So you went with what's. You went 62 62. Saw X. Yeah. Got a 60 see so we could see. But that was also about, like a guy getting over cancer.

[Amanda Davis]

So you don't know what this is about?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's about gnarly fucking kills.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, people have a lot of respect for that. Yourself included.

[Sean Fennessey]

They do.

[Amanda Davis]

So you are, you know, you're the institution now.

[Sean Fennessey]

Speaking of long gestating legacy equals and gnarly fucking kills. Lilo and Stitch live action.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

May 23rd. This is directed by Dean Fleischer Camp.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Last seen directing Marcel the Shell with Shoes On.

[Amanda Davis]

We have the Marcel the Shell with Shoes on book, which I find is not the right medium to introduce my 3 year old to Marcel the Shell because I cannot do Jenny Slate's voice, you know, and so it's like the punchlines are funny, but not really in the same way when it's just me reading. I have this. I wish I could remember how do I. How I got to this number? Maybe it'll come to me. I went with 180 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that's a good guess.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think I may have mentioned this to you in the. In the movie fantasy league that I'm in, that this was a hot commodity and in fact, I bought it for. For the assigned value, and I'm going with 218 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I also think it's going to play overseas as well. I don't.

[Amanda Davis]

But we're not. We're doing domestic.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're just doing domestic. But I. I think that it has major young millennial nostalgia and Gen Z nostalgia. Gen Z. Sort of like I watched this when I was six. Nostalgia. Plus, obviously, this is the big kids movie across the Memorial Day weekend. So I think it's gonna have a really, really big opening weekend and then kind of a steep drop. But I think it can get over 200, which would be good for a Disney live action movie, you know, in the aftermath of the Snow White situation.

[Amanda Davis]

Right. That, to me, the. The Disney live action aspect of it all. Even though, you know, Mufasa. We know Mufasa is the new greatest showman, but we know.

[Sean Fennessey]

We know.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, we do. We say.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who are you talking to?

[Amanda Davis]

Don't you ever, like, just get tired of listening to us? Like I do, you know?

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you mean?

[Amanda Davis]

We.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like the overwhelming rightness or.

[Amanda Davis]

No, but it's just like the number of times we've said, like, well, Mufasa didn't do well initially at the box office, but it grew and grew and grew and that's. It's like the Greatest Showman of 2024. Like, I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Whose points are you even regurgitating at this point? I think that was uttered maybe one time and you've become completely exhausted by it. I just like you've been reading the trades.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, you have to to do this exercise.

[Sean Fennessey]

You read all the trades coverage of Sinners?

[Amanda Davis]

I did, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And you liked it?

[Amanda Davis]

They did a great job. A plus to everyone. You know, I think both like your tracking and your business and also your understanding of the themes of the film. Sinners were all really good. Great job. A plus. Also, you're all owned by the same company, so not ideal. What are we talking about? Okay, so the other Lilo and Sysh thing, and this is really just anecdotal, but we saw. We were talking about it, I guess, with Matt Bellamy after Cinemacon, and he was like, what is this? I don't care about this at all. And he does have a child of film going age. And so he was like, I don't know about this. So I don't know. I trust Matt. I think another thing is I think it looks kind of funny. And that's usually a death signal for the box office.

[Sean Fennessey]

It just looks like a very close remake of the film, as most of these movies are, but just expanding 27 minutes onto a story that doesn't necessitate it. But the one difference is that Lilo and Sytch is a comedy and is a fun movie and has a little bit more of the antic, despicable me energy that I think is more commonly successful these days. So I don't know. I'm banking up. What's your metacritic guess?

[Amanda Davis]

56.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's exactly what I had. Wow, that's amazing.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. I just kind of started writing Metacritic numbers that started to get confusing.

[Sean Fennessey]

I had to kind of check myself at 11:30pm last night. Let's go to the Big Dog. May 23, Mission Impossible, the Final Reckoning. I haven't seen this yet. Okay, don't worry.

[Amanda Davis]

I have some.

[Sean Fennessey]

I guess you have to make personal outreach. You have to make connections with people. You have to reach out and say, hey, I'd love to work more closely with you on these.

[Amanda Davis]

Pour my water on your computer. Zach started giving me this exact speech.

[Sean Fennessey]

About two of the goats who know how to play the game.

[Amanda Davis]

Here's what I don't need in this year or in any other year is two men just telling me how email works.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, I'm good. What about meeting in person? What about. What about buying Someone a cup of coffee.

[Amanda Davis]

But I'm sitting here, you know, reading box office numbers for the last five years at 10 at night because I'm raising two children and playing your games. It's funny.

[Sean Fennessey]

This man is making it work.

[Amanda Davis]

Never, ever talk to me about emailing someone ever again.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

Fucking ever.

[Sean Fennessey]

If you promise to never complain about not being invited to things. Is that a deal?

[Amanda Davis]

That's fine. Mission Impossible. Final Reckoning. I'm so angry. The thing about you is, you don't like to email. Fuck off, both of you.

[Sean Fennessey]

I didn't say that I emailed. You're bringing home issues into this podcast. That's between y'all.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay, you were implying it, though. You started.

[Sean Fennessey]

I didn't use the word email.

[Amanda Davis]

It's. It's fine.

[Sean Fennessey]

I said connection. And that's what life is all about.

[Amanda Davis]

It's about making connections. Especially the way you email.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you mean? I have a phone. I speak with people on the phone.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have Zoom meetings.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I meet them at screenings. I say hello. So nice to see you here.

[Amanda Davis]

Someone has. Correspondence has been so deep with you. Connection is what they think about. Well, Mission Impossible final, so.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. This is old school. Let's go. What's your guess?

[Amanda Davis]

220 million?

[Sean Fennessey]

I guess 202.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay, I. I want to believe the other thing. And I was thinking about this with Lilo and Stitch, and you mentioned, like, older millennials, like, the older millennials are actually going to go see Mission Impossible. We care.

[Sean Fennessey]

I hope so.

[Amanda Davis]

We. We were there.

[Sean Fennessey]

We got kids, right? Gotta get a sitter.

[Amanda Davis]

I don't know. Some of us with older kids now are old enough to go to.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's true.

[Amanda Davis]

To Mission Impossible.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe they're bringing their kids with them.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, that's what I'm. That's what I'm.

[Sean Fennessey]

That would be great. So I. I wish Alice.

[Amanda Davis]

That's why I revised slightly down on Lilo and Stitch and slightly up on Mission Impossible.

[Sean Fennessey]

You don't think that's aspirational?

[Amanda Davis]

I'm asking you to trust me one last time.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Metacritic score.83. That's exactly what. I guess if that doesn't.

[Amanda Davis]

By the way, we have not made peace just because two Metacritics in a.

[Sean Fennessey]

Row, you got to sit here. This is your job, man. What? Peace? I'm not worried about peace. Bring her back. May 30th.

[Amanda Davis]

I really was this close to, like, reaching over and pouring water.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, that wouldn't have been a good choice on your part. I'll tell you what. I wouldn't have Been able to email if you'd done that.

[Amanda Davis]

Bring her Back. Okay, so this is the Talk to me guys, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

This is the talk to me guys.

[Amanda Davis]

And that's the hand that talks to you.

[Sean Fennessey]

It doesn't talk to you when you hold it. It opens up a portal to another dead dimension.

[Amanda Davis]

And then who talks to you?

[Sean Fennessey]

The dead people whose dimension you've opened. They talk to you.

[Amanda Davis]

But is it like dead people you knew or just.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, no.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was a very effective horror movie. Yeah.

[Amanda Davis]

No, no, I know.

[Sean Fennessey]

And a big hit. The Filippo brothers are the guys who directed that movie. In this new movie, Bring Her Back, which stars Sally Hawkins. I haven't seen it. I've seen a couple trailers. That's it. I feel like it does not have the same heat on it that Talk To Me had, but I don't know. There's not. Is there a horror movie? I mean, I guess it's gonna. A full two weeks after Final Destination. Bloodlines Horror can work in the summer, certainly.

[Amanda Davis]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

What's your guess?

[Amanda Davis]

Bring her back. I guessed 48 million, which is. I just went with the Talk to Me.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's high. That would be high. That would be good. That would be a great success. That would make it among the most successful A24 movies ever. I guess. 23.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't. I feel like there's like a lack of viral energy around this one, for lack of a better phrase. Anyway, Metacritic score 72. 67.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. Wow. You really. You don't believe in people.

[Sean Fennessey]

I feel like I would just have heard more, I guess so. You know, I got my ear on the tracks sending these emails out. Getting emails back. That's one of my. It's a great new bit, Karate Kid Legends. Let me pick your brain on something. I really want to do a Jackie Chan episode, but I need an expert. I need somebody. He's seen like everything in the 60s and 70s and 80s, and I haven't seen everything in the 60s and 70s AND 80s. Do you think people want a Jackie Chan episode? Because obviously he's a hugely important figure in movie history. Really?

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah. Well, can you get. Will Quentin do it?

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, God, maybe.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, you gotta expert, you know, and then people will definitely listen to it. I will too.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, that would work. Yeah. Well, I'll ask him. That would be interesting.

[Amanda Davis]

There you go. That's some free producing for you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, thank you very much. What's your guess for Karate Kid Legends? Which here's what you got to consider. I think it's the sixth Karate Kid film But we've had Cobra Kai on Netflix for years now. So there's a built in base. But Karate Kid, not the most, not the strongest franchise.

[Amanda Davis]

I went with 113 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's high.

[Amanda Davis]

The new Ghostbusters were my comps.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. I like how you're thinking. I went 66.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's probably the biggest gap we've had yet.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

You could be right.

[Amanda Davis]

People really, really like the Cobra Kai stuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

They sure do.

[Amanda Davis]

Especially like old men, too.

[Sean Fennessey]

Old men?

[Amanda Davis]

Well, men your age.

[Sean Fennessey]

All right, settle down. Metacritic, 43. I went 42.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're really close on these, you know, whatever. May 30th, the Phoenician scheme. A film I have seen. Okay, I went 23 on box office.

[Amanda Davis]

I went 25. Okay, so we're pretty close.

[Sean Fennessey]

Slightly higher. Faith in Wes. That's about where he has settled box office wise. With a couple of exceptions, obviously. Grand Budapest Hotel was a very big exception to that. And then what was the last one that got up? You know what was also big was Moonrise Kingdom was big. Am I forgetting one in the last five or six years that had, I guess I love dogs, was surprisingly big.

[Amanda Davis]

It was animated and it had dogs.

[Sean Fennessey]

It had dogs in it. 23. Metacritic, 78. I have 75, which is not a value judgment on the film. I'll just say. John WICK presents Ballerina. June 6th. Yes, I got a chance to see a segment from this film that was before you arrived in Las Vegas.

[Amanda Davis]

Oh, correct.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I haven't seen the movie. Yeah, Box office now. John Wick. One thing interesting about the John Wick franchise. Each film has been bigger than the last. The lowest grossing John Wick movie is John Wick, right? Then John Wick two, then three, then four in ascending order.

[Amanda Davis]

This is a spinoff.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a spin off.

[Amanda Davis]

Even though we do know that they reshot everything so that Keanu will show up in it at some point.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Amanda Davis]

I'm going with 140 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm really low balling this.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm saying 87 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not sure if Ana de Armas is enough now. They're working super hard. She's already doing press right now for a movie that's not coming out for six or seven weeks.

[Amanda Davis]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I got my doubts.

[Amanda Davis]

I based my two comps. Here were two franchise spinoff movies, one of which was released in June last year. A Quiet Place, Day one. And then also the Last Dance, which I know has some of the Marvel stuff, but is still like spin off.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Quiet Place is an interesting comp.

[Amanda Davis]

They were both 140, 139.

[Sean Fennessey]

So do you think that Quiet Place got to where it did because it was so good or do you think it was just like people like Quiet Place movies are going to go forever no matter what. I was very surprised by the quality of that movie.

[Amanda Davis]

I think I was as well. But I think people just went because it was like, oh, a quiet place.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, maybe you're right. Maybe Ballerina will get way up.

[Amanda Davis]

And it also just doesn't, you know, Joseph Quinn is now going to be a Beatle and Lupita is Lupita, but it's, you know, not Leonardo DiCaprio.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is Ana de Armas signature role?

[Amanda Davis]

Ben Affleck's one time paramour.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's tough. Not Marilyn Monroe.

[Amanda Davis]

I mean, I hope not Academy Award nominee, sure. But also we watched that movie, so it's tough.

[Sean Fennessey]

Metacritic score for ballerina 57 42. Okay, I don't know.

[Amanda Davis]

I know that you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Len Wiseman joint. That's not.

[Amanda Davis]

I know you have really bad vibes about it, but people like Ana de Armas and I think they're also gonna go out of their way to be like, well, this was, you know, this was nice. So, okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Another June 6 release, the Life of Chuck. This is the new Mike Flanagan film that won the audience award at TIFF last fall. It was acquired by Neon. It's written and directed by Mike Flanagan, an adaptation of a Stephen King novella. I was just talking with our friend Gilbert over the weekend about his excitement for this movie. I saw it yesterday.

[Amanda Davis]

You're really irritating me. I wrote down 23 million and now I'm trying to figure out why I.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wrote down 18 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay, so we're not that far.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm not giving a formal review of this movie.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I will say this. It has some magic in it.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

That doesn't mean like five star classic.

[Amanda Davis]

Like it has the feeling of magic as opposed to David Copperfield and his Alien.

[Sean Fennessey]

It has none of that. It is an odd film in a way that I think is ultimately effective. But there was a woman sitting next to me at the press screening who, when a sequence happened that might make your skin crawl, it's possible. I'm kind of excited to talk to you about it because I think you could go either way on it. But she was like, you know when someone's just like vibrating because they love something? Almost like when you see a band perform that you love and you're like, oh, My God, they're playing my song. She was like that during one sequence. So there's a world where it's like a $70 million movie and people are like, this is the heartwarming sensation of the year. Or it's just the small indie and it's another Stephen King adaptation and that's it. They want it to be Stand By Me, you know, they want it to be the Shawshank Redemption. They want it to be serious. King with a real incredible sense of humanity.

[Amanda Davis]

Right. It feels like I have not seen it. I've only. I only know that it won the Toronto People's Choice Award, which is kind of a curse, in my opinion, at this point, or signals to me something about sentimentality and corniness. It is sentimental and that's not true, for that's not fair to American fiction, which I thought was very emotional and I thought very unsentimental, but unsentimental and not corny at all. This honestly seems cheesy.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's a cheese factor, but that doesn't mean I didn't like it. And frankly, good cheese, I think is a good thing at the movies. You have 23. I have 18. Metacritic score. What do you got?

[Amanda Davis]

62.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have 66. I think it's sitting now at 71 because of the festival reviews, but it's a very small number of festival reviews. How to train youn Dragon June 13th. This is the live action remake that we've seen. We saw at Cinemacon box office. Guess. Tough one.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you look at the comps for the other how to Train youn Dragon movies?

[Amanda Davis]

I did, but that didn't. And then I also looked at live actions. And then this is a Universal. So I kind of looked at like Universal kids stuff because of how they're, you know, positioning everything.

[Sean Fennessey]

This movie has a hard cutoff, though, because it's scary. Some of the dragon stuff is true.

[Amanda Davis]

I did 250 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's definitely where they'd like to get. I did 168. I feel like maybe I'll second guess myself. And I think you might be closer to. Right. This is also a very sturdy, long running franchise and this is the first time Universal's really done this.

[Amanda Davis]

And they also already announced the second one, which to me signals I think.

[Sean Fennessey]

They got the goods.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, you might be right. I might be underselling this one pretty hard. And it's the same filmmaker who co directed the animated films, Dean DeBlois.

[Amanda Davis]

So people really like dragons?

[Sean Fennessey]

They do, they do. Hence the success of Game of Thrones.

[Amanda Davis]

All those other Game of Thrones.

[Sean Fennessey]

The film, Dragon Slayer film. I enjoy Reign of Fire, Lord of the Rings. What are some other dragon laden items?

[Amanda Davis]

My husband had out some of his beloved fantasy books. I don't know. We were rearranging books and my 3 year old saw them and just very instinctively was like, what are those? Who is that? And I was like, oh, this is the prime.

[Sean Fennessey]

I've been waiting for this. Yeah, I've been waiting for. I introduced my son.

[Amanda Davis]

He's just like, look at. Look at these things. How can I know more?

[Sean Fennessey]

What did he say about the woman with the heaving chest on the COVID of the book?

[Amanda Davis]

I don't know if he saw that one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Those exist. Just so you know.

[Amanda Davis]

I mean, I'm definitely.

[Sean Fennessey]

Especially the ones that Zach has read. Okay, moving on. Materialists. Oh, actually, Metacritic score. What did you say for how to train youn dragon? 62. I said 74.

[Amanda Davis]

Wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think these films are loved.

[Amanda Davis]

I thought. But the live action at all. I thought it would just be like a polite 62.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. You know, we have a difference. Materialists, which your husband has seen, I have not seen, comes out on June 13th. It's the new film, the second feature from Celine's Song that stars Dakota Johnson, Chris Evans and who's the third that I'm forgetting?

[Amanda Davis]

Pedro Pascal.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pedro Pascal, of course.

[Amanda Davis]

I wrote down 25 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wrote down 9 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay, that's rude.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is rude. What was Past Lives, Box office?

[Amanda Davis]

It was 11.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I think I was using that as a framework.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know. I think maybe I'm negging some of the A24 stuff a little bit.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know why. Well, we're getting to Eddington. That's coming up soon. I am looking forward to Materialists. I really like Celine's writing.

[Amanda Davis]

I think that Pedro Pascal and Chris Evans and Dakota Johnson, three recognizable names and plus Celine Song.

[Sean Fennessey]

Three of our greatest Marvel heroes.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, I know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, yeah, we've got.

[Amanda Davis]

And the past lives of it all.

[Sean Fennessey]

Mr. Fantastic, Captain America and Madame Web.

[Amanda Davis]

Right. And that. I don't know. People will go see it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I hope so. If it's good, if the reviews are really good, that will help. That will get people excited. A little iffy on that trailer, personally.

[Amanda Davis]

I mean, I'm excited for half of it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

I agree with you guys that we're on Pedro Pascal Overexposure.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I have not enjoyed the last of us first two episodes. Okay. 28 years later, one of my. Wait, you Guys did not give your Metacritic score for Materialist. Thank you. Thanks, Jack. Metacritic score for materialist?

[Amanda Davis]

73.

[Sean Fennessey]

73 is what I have.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay, that's really weird.

[Sean Fennessey]

What do you mean?

[Amanda Davis]

You're not. You're not going to get me to warm back up to you. I'm still pissed.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pissed about what? Pissed that your husband told you you got to send emails. That's your problem.

[Amanda Davis]

He told me to send emails, too.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're so obnoxious 28 years later.

[Amanda Davis]

Really, really annoying. You guys are very excited for this. I just wrote down the box office for Civil War, which was what, 68 million?

[Sean Fennessey]

I wrote 88 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is the third film in the 28 series. First in a very, very long time. Danny Boyle, Alex Garland, reuniting. I don't think this has a ton in common with Civil War, but I hear what you're saying. Same writer.

[Amanda Davis]

I just, you know, it was a comp. And it just seems like the same. Like a real overlap in filmgoers. Like the same demo.

[Sean Fennessey]

Say more.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, just, I don't know, like you and Chris.

[Sean Fennessey]

You mean like cool guys.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Sean Fennessey]

The cool guy demo. Yeah. I have 88 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think the marketing has been very good for this movie. And I think high class studio horror is an interesting opportunity for studios that they should look at. They basically were like, yeah, Blumhouse will handle this. A24 will handle this. Giving real artists money to make horror movies is always a good choice. Ask Stanley Kubrick. Ask Roman Polanski. Ask. You know, there's a long history. Obviously, Jordan Peele has been showing us. You don't need to relegate them to like, yeah, you'll get 5 million for this movie. So I think this movie could do well.

[Amanda Davis]

Metacritic score 77.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have 83.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Stanley Boyle. Yeah, I don't know what. What did. I wonder what 28 Days later did, because that movie was wild.

[Amanda Davis]

77 and 83 is not really that different.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, they're close. They're close. 28 days later had a 73.

[Amanda Davis]

There you go.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, what's next on the list?

[Amanda Davis]

Also, Metacritic is really hard to get over 80.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is really hard. It's one of the triggers in our auctions.

[Amanda Davis]

For that reason, you said it at 85, which is insane.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, have you looked back at the auction recently? CR Got sinners. Yeah, that's going to turn out looking very good when it gets nine Academy Award nominations and makes $250 million. Elio, new Pixar film, an original film. June 20th is the release date.

[Amanda Davis]

They're very nervous about it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Seems like it, Right?

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Why did it get a June 20th release date if they're so nervous about it?

[Amanda Davis]

Because the money spent.

[Sean Fennessey]

I guess so.

[Amanda Davis]

So you gotta. You gotta sell what you have.

[Sean Fennessey]

They punted it out of 2024 and put it into 2025.

[Amanda Davis]

I did 120 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have 117 million. This would obviously put it on the very low end of Pixar films, but in that zone of, like the good dinosaur onward, you know, originals that are unattached to other ip.

[Amanda Davis]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then when this movie doesn't do that well, they'll immediately Greenlight Finding Nemo 3. And they're gonna do that anyway. Car 6. Yeah, they're gonna do it anyway. Metacritic, 72. I also chose 72. This is very interesting. Okay. F1.

[Amanda Davis]

A polite 72, you know.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm sure it'll be a nice movie.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. F1.

[Sean Fennessey]

June 27th.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Warner Brothers is distributing this Apple original film starring Brad Pitt as a race car driver who's old. His name is Sonny, but he's still got some juice left.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Classic tales. Oldest time.

[Amanda Davis]

We didn't talk about watching the first 10 minutes of this film at Cinemacon, which we did. That's what we were shown.

[Sean Fennessey]

We couldn't figure out if it was.

[Amanda Davis]

Actually the first 10 minutes or whether it was.

[Sean Fennessey]

Or if it was chopped up in some way. Here's what I'll say.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was set to a Led Zeppelin song. And that part of it was fucking sick. I really enjoyed that. I liked what I saw.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah. As did I. I liked what I saw.

[Rob Harvilla]

It looks cool.

[Amanda Davis]

It looks cool. It looks like it has a tremendous amount in common with Top Gun Maverick, which is one of the great films.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. You noted that the cutting style was very similar.

[Amanda Davis]

The cuttings. And honestly, like, the shot composition and the storytelling, like. Whatever.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll do my style.

[Amanda Davis]

I'll do, like, my diagram, you know, when it comes.

[Sean Fennessey]

You should. That's a good idea. You're a telstrator. Yeah. You'd be like the John Madden of Joseph Kosinski's cinema.

[Amanda Davis]

Here is the gratuitous shot of their biceps.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. An insert shot of a man's keys and his wallet. And here's his rumpled hat that he wears whenever he goes fishing.

[Amanda Davis]

Photograph to show you that once upon a time, he had emotional connections, but not so much anymore. Okay. 178 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have 132.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. You think it's going to be. This was.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think I don't know.

[Amanda Davis]

I just wrote the Dead Reckoning box office in because I know that there are different filmmakers, but. And I, like. I don't think it's going to go to Maverick Heights, but I do think it's sort of like it is trying to position him in the cruise. Look at what this person that you've known forever is doing with cars going really fast.

[Sean Fennessey]

I just think in America, F1 is not the same thing as it is as an international race.

[Amanda Davis]

I know, but.

[Sean Fennessey]

I know it's very popular, but we're actually, like, now five years out from Drive to Survive being a phenomenon. I don't think there's as much enthusiasm for it here. There still is. I'm not saying there is not, but something just feels a little off.

[Amanda Davis]

I agree with you. I don't think that it's going to be anywhere near Maverick. Obviously, that was a phenomenon for its own reasons, because it was like kind of the first real movie after the pandemic. I don't know. It just seems big and loud and like, people could get excited about it being big and dumb and loud.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, I'm. I'm looking forward to seeing it. Megan 2.0.

[Amanda Davis]

We didn't do Metacritic.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, I'm sorry. Metacritic. I have 74.

[Amanda Davis]

I have 61.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, I.

[Amanda Davis]

That is, you know, still respectful and Metacritic.

[Sean Fennessey]

You might be right.

[Amanda Davis]

I don't. You know, I don't know if you. If it's a reheated souffle. It's a reheated souffle.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, so will you say that on this podcast this is a reheated souffle?

[Amanda Davis]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. If it is, then. It is. It is. Megan 2.0, June 27th. We know what this is. We got a little taste of it. It's in a macan as well.

[Amanda Davis]

We sure did. I met two Megans.

[Sean Fennessey]

You met two Megans at the party after. Did you mention that on the pod?

[Amanda Davis]

I did, yeah. And I posted the photo on my Instagram.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you. What kind of engagement did you get?

[Amanda Davis]

Stories.

[Sean Fennessey]

Only on stories. You wouldn't put that on the grid. No, you wouldn't dare, because then Megan would be on the grid forever. And then you don't want that because she's AI and then she's going to get into your system.

[Amanda Davis]

You don't.

[Sean Fennessey]

You don't want that.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Megan 2.0, the Terminator 2 of.

[Amanda Davis]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

AI, robot, female assassin movies. I have 99 million.

[Amanda Davis]

I have 90.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pretty close. That's pretty close to where the original was, which was A surprise sensation.

[Amanda Davis]

Exactly. And also had a big viral tiktoky moment which was very funny. Like they played it perfectly.

[Sean Fennessey]

But recreating that will be hard.

[Amanda Davis]

Exactly.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. And kept it under a hundred.

[Amanda Davis]

So did I. And also I do it is the same day currently as F1.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I think a little bit of crossover.

[Amanda Davis]

A little bit of crossover. And I do think, like, if you're drag, if you're going to the theater, you'll probably go like. I don't know how many people besides me, honestly, are like, ooh, it's Megan. Like, I gotta go.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's fascinating counter programming. I mean, you know, it's a movie. It's a horror movie that is targeted. You know, that movie had a big queer fan base. Had more of a female fan base than you're not likely to see. All the lead characters were female. It had a kind of kitsch quality, a camp quality that people were absolutely playing into.

[Amanda Davis]

Like at CinemaCon, like 30 Megans came out and danced to Oops I Did it Again, which is the song animating the trailer. That was very funny.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wrote that song. So I'm getting residuals on that performance.

[Amanda Davis]

Congratulations.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have a 64 on Metacritic.

[Amanda Davis]

68.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Pretty close.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, here's a big daddy. Jurassic World Rebirth. Yeah, it's released on July 2nd. Another Universal film. This is the seventh Jurassic film. You looked at the comp for all the previous Jurassic movies.

[Amanda Davis]

I did. So Jurassic park movies make a lot of money.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. There's a reason why they shotgunned this movie two and a half years after the last one. Because they make a shit ton of money. I wrote globally. They're.

[Amanda Davis]

I know, they're huge and I get it. Yeah. I mean, I think it looks good. 384 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have 366. I think those are good guesses.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's not going to be the absolute phenomenon that Jurassic World was when that movie kind of revived, reboosted the franchise. But Scarlett Johansson, Mahershala Ali, Jonathan Bailey. Yeah, he's got some wicked fans coming in the door.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

So in this story, they go to an island. Turns out there's dinosaurs there. It's crazy. Somehow there's some kids on the island. They're on a boat at one point and there's dinosaurs in the water. You're never gonna. And then some dinosaurs fly. And then there's a new dinosaur. You've never seen it before. It's like a dinosaur.

[Amanda Davis]

And then it figures out how to get into a place where it's not supposed to be.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it seems like they're stupid, but they're actually smart. It's a crazy idea for a movie. Can't believe they're doing this. Finally. So, Jurassic World, Rebirth, Metacritic score, what.

[Amanda Davis]

Did I write down? 70 58. Wow. You know your heart's not open to this.

[Sean Fennessey]

I know. Why is that?

[Amanda Davis]

I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because I think that this is, like, a little. It's the same thing with Marvel. It's like, we had this. This stuff had its run, it had its time. It was very important to movies for the studios to make a lot of money for a certain period of time. But I'm like, we're done.

[Amanda Davis]

We had, like, 35 Marvel movies or however, and this is the sixth.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's the seventh Jurassic film. The thing in its favor is that it's Gareth Edwards. It's the guy who made Rogue One and the creator, and he's an excellent filmmaker. He's not a great writer, and so he's got a writer on this movie, so maybe it'll be good. But even just the trailer, it's Scarlett Johansson being like, oh, that's not good.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, but she looks like Lara Croft. And then she's going to run around.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, she's beautiful. She's a great movie star.

[Amanda Davis]

Right. So what else do you want?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know. I just want a little more, you know, Sinners. Sinners showed me we can all do this together.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

We can all do this. Give incredibly gifted people a lot of money to make something original, and then. And then we can all get behind it together.

[Amanda Davis]

You can't make sinners every single day. It's like, does it. It's disrespectful. Why, like, yeah, get out here. Everyone makes sinners.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, you are the person who told me this, that you have to have standards.

[Amanda Davis]

I have to have standards. Everyone listens every week and knows I.

[Sean Fennessey]

You can't be like, oh, well, sometimes you get a Jurassic World. No, Hollywood. Step it the fuck up there.

[Amanda Davis]

There are plenty of things that you just let in and you're like, cool, I'll watch, you know, the 45th bad slasher movie. Just because I like. And that's fine. And I'm okay with those.

[Sean Fennessey]

Movies don't cost $300 million on the July 4th weekend.

[Amanda Davis]

It's not your money.

[Sean Fennessey]

But the point is, is that money goes. Should go to other big projects. That's my point, you know. You know I'm right about this.

[Amanda Davis]

I know you agree with me for the other projects.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe it is.

[Amanda Davis]

I like, let's never make this energy.

[Sean Fennessey]

To the thunderbolts conversation again.

[Amanda Davis]

Never make a Marvel movie again. I think it's. They're so stupid. I'm good. We're done. But I just. Every three years, letting dinosaurs roam around and letting the John Williams score hit super hard.

[Sean Fennessey]

A new dinosaur story that has nothing to do with Jurassic Park.

[Amanda Davis]

What is it?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know. Let's come up with it.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

When I was on Blank Check, I.

[Amanda Davis]

Was like, let's go.

[Sean Fennessey]

Why has there never been a good dinosaur movie that isn't a Jurassic movie?

[Amanda Davis]

Because what else is there gonna be? Are you going back in time and then you're just living with the dinosaurs?

[Sean Fennessey]

Good idea.

[Amanda Davis]

Adam Driver did it. Really boring.

[Sean Fennessey]

That was bad. That was bad. Okay, so you're saying that you can't make a good dinosaur.

[Amanda Davis]

I just. I would like to hear your idea. I'm not a filmmaker. If you're disagreeing.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's not what I do. But there are thousands, millions of them out there who have great ideas and they need to be trusted.

[Amanda Davis]

I think it's sick to be able to watch dinosaurs fuck around every couple years, you know? I know, and I love.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, you gave such vivid reviews of Jurassic World, Dom. On this show.

[Amanda Davis]

I don't know what happened to it. I probably didn't even see it. But I don't care.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. All right, duly noted. So you're all in on this movie? So you think. 99 Metacritic score for Jurassic World?

[Amanda Davis]

Reaper?

[Sean Fennessey]

70. Okay, 58. Here we go. Superman.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

July 11th.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Probably the most important movie of the summer.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. All right. Relax, Mr. Minecraft. You know that's right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Warner's is back.

[Amanda Davis]

You just keep. Everything is suddenly the most important thing except for Jurassic World because we can't honor d. Dinosaurs. Is Alice not into dinosaurs? Maybe this is the other thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

She loves dinosaurs. Loves. Is obsessed. We were playing dinosaurs this morning. She was like, I'm a velociraptor and you're a velociraptor. And we are a pack and we hunt together.

[Amanda Davis]

That's sick.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was awesome. Those movies are way too scary to bring to her. No, of course, Superman I don't also think is a movie that I'll bring her to. It looks kind of violent for a Superman film.

[Amanda Davis]

Are they not supposed to be like, what?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think the Richard Donner movie is pg.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay, whatever. I mean, I understand that this is the problem with Superman. Like, he's boring and he just, like, does good and then hesitates we're going.

[Sean Fennessey]

To find out James Gunn's new film relaunching the DC Cinematic Universe. Box office, Amanda410. So I went way low.

[Amanda Davis]

You went way low. I. You're going way low.

[Sean Fennessey]

I am. I'm not sure why.

[Amanda Davis]

It's not prices. Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

I went 257 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

The history of Superman at the box office. Let's do a quick recap. Now, obviously, there's a long gap between certain films here, but the highest grossing movie with Batman in it in America is Batman v Dawn of justice, directed by Zack Snyder. It made $330 million.

[Amanda Davis]

What year did that come out? 2016.

[Sean Fennessey]

Correct. I think this is at the height.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Of the superhero boom. Number two is man of Steel, which came out in 2013, made 290.

[Amanda Davis]

Right. Couple things there in my thinking. Number one, at that time, at the height of the superhero boom, it was really the height of Marvel, and these movies suffered in comparison to Marvel and their darkness and their muddiness. People were very much on the, you know, let's make some jokes and save the world trade. So there's that. I do also. I used James Gunn as a comp, and he was obviously working in the Marvel universe for a while and got that bump. But there is something, and we saw in the footage, like, sort of corny about what he does that people really seem to like. And then I honestly just think that this movie is just called Superman, and that's really smart. Like, I just. It's just. It's really, really. I don't know that people are gonna like it.

[Sean Fennessey]

What. What number did you say again?

[Amanda Davis]

I said 410.

[Sean Fennessey]

So four, if it makes 410. Yeah, that would make it. If it makes 411, that would make it the 11th highest grossing movie of the 2000s.

[Amanda Davis]

What else is. I mean, I. I don't know that people are gonna like it, but I think people liking it versus people going.

[Sean Fennessey]

You just. The thing is, is you need repeat business to get to those numbers. And, like, the Marvel was very good at getting people to go a second time. I. I think I'm. I think I'm negging it because I think people are pumped for Fantastic Four.

[Amanda Davis]

Oh, interesting. See, I. Here, I guess you know what I'm saying. Let me. I understand that. Let me articulate my thinking. I. I think that you will probably not like Superman very much.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know.

[Amanda Davis]

I need to, like.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'd like to.

[Amanda Davis]

I know, but I think you're gonna be a little more like, I Don't like what's going on here. And how do I feel about that? You're gonna be, like, very complicated.

[Sean Fennessey]

Could be.

[Amanda Davis]

I think most people will be like, oh, I went to see a Superman movie, and it was, like, funny and fun, and I. And I like the. The work of James Gunn. And it will be sort of like an uncomplicated.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do regular people know who James Gunn is?

[Amanda Davis]

I. I guess by regular people, I mean regular movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

You mean movie fans.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, movie fans.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

The thing is, is I. You know, these movies just need more than that. They need more than movie fans. They need.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

They need normal people.

[Amanda Davis]

But that's why I think, like, Superman. That's it. That's all that. It's, you know, that's. It's really, really easy. It's just like Barbie, Superman. We don't have colons. We don't have the last reckoning. We don't have whatever.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yep.

[Amanda Davis]

I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think you might be right.

[Amanda Davis]

I don't think that I'll like it, but I do think that it might.

[Sean Fennessey]

Six months ago, I was 100% with you on this in terms of that number where I was like, I think this will be the biggest Superman movie ever. Obviously not adjusted for inflation. I think it's so important to the studio, yada, yada. And now I'm kind of like, I've seen 10 minutes of footage. I've seen James Gunn speak about it at length.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah. But that soured us on it in a way that I like. I just don't think.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, what'd you have for Metacritic?

[Amanda Davis]

What do I have? 68.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's exactly what I had.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

July 18th. Eddington come to topple Superman. Ari Aster. A 24 movie. Apparently a 2020 set Western drama about COVID in New Mexico. I have 28 million for box office.

[Amanda Davis]

I wrote 23.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

And just now in my head, I was thinking about revising it down. Beau is Afraid made nine million.

[Sean Fennessey]

Beau's Afraid's three hours long.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah. But I like.

[Sean Fennessey]

And wildly unlikable for any normal human that isn't me.

[Amanda Davis]

I actually admired it. I will go anywhere with Joaquin. Including. Including to Eddington.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I thought you're gonna say something else.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, no, I still haven't seen Joker too. This isn't reading like a classic horror movie. Hereditary style, you know, it's not. So I think that there's gonna be a lot of people being like, I don't know. That looks pretty weird. I could go see Superman again.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think at this time of year, the real cinema heads are going to be starving. Starving. Because I think F1 and Superman are going to disappoint them a little bit. And then we're going to have a full month since 28 years later. Okay, so 28, you know, is not that much bigger than 23, but. What just you're speaking of my people.

[Amanda Davis]

Your profiling of, you know, quote unquote, real cinema heads. What you outline.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm talking to the homies.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, all right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Talking to all the homies out there who are supporting Ari. And no real movies. Right. Metacritic and hate dinosaurs.

[Amanda Davis]

67.

[Sean Fennessey]

91.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I actually have a back of what. What Ari's previous films are. I think this movie is probably going to annoy a lot of people, but I think it will be critically acclaimed.

[Amanda Davis]

Sure. But I even. I think his critically acclaimed movies have not been at 90.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is that true?

[Amanda Davis]

Where is Hereditary at? I think hereditary was maybe 80, but. And that's the highest one, so I'm taking a swing. That's, you know, that's great.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Smurfs movie.

[Amanda Davis]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Speaking of swings. Featuring the voice of Rihanna.

[Amanda Davis]

Sure. As Smurfette.

[Sean Fennessey]

Smurfette.

[Amanda Davis]

They couldn't get Rihanna to Comic Con. To Cinemacon, though. Maybe she'll go to Comic Con.

[Sean Fennessey]

She recorded a video.

[Amanda Davis]

Are they doing the Smurfs movie at Cinema? At Comic Con?

[Sean Fennessey]

Issues of the Smurfs comic. Have you read Zero. Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

I think I watched a TV episode or two once upon a time. I mean, I'm familiar with their lore. No, I'm not familiar with their lore. I'm familiar with them.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is their lore?

[Amanda Davis]

They kind of live under small trees.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure, Absolutely. I think maybe you're thinking of Keebler elves. Anyhow, moving on box office.

[Amanda Davis]

They wear hats that are not dissimilar to the Keebler hat.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're going to get through this, I promise. Together, you and I, we're going to rebuild our relationship. We're going to get through this entire process.

[Amanda Davis]

Sorry that I'm ringing bits about the Smurfs. You put it in the document.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Smurfs movie will make how much money?

[Amanda Davis]

90 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have a 114. I feel like there's a little secret hit going on here. I al saw Smurfette Academy Museum and was like, that's my best friend of all time.

[Amanda Davis]

My comp was Garfield movie, which was 91.

[Sean Fennessey]

So I didn't see that movie, but I heard it was hot trash.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I heard from a guy who likes Garfield.

[Amanda Davis]

I met A kid on the beach who said that he went to school. Someone he went to school with, dad, is Garfield. And I was like, oh, you mean Chris Pratt. So that's cool. That was cool. That's my connection to the Garfield movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting. You met a kid on the beach. Were you on the beach alone looking for children?

[Amanda Davis]

I was also with my child, and Nox started hanging out with the other child. And I try to engage the other kids.

[Sean Fennessey]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Davis]

You don't?

[Sean Fennessey]

No, not really. I'm good. Oh, God. Strange child. I don't want to have to talk to some child about Chris Pratt being his dad.

[Amanda Davis]

He volunteered it, and it wasn't his dad. It was a friend at school. But it was important for him because it was like Garfield movie time.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is the energy you need to bring to the publicist who will let you see movies. This kind of sunniness, this kind of openness.

[Amanda Davis]

Incredibly kind to the publicist.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, sure. Absolutely. I'm hearing that more and more every day. Metacritic score for the Smurfs movie, 34. I wrote 39. Okay, we are close. I know what you did last summer. We've just gotten a trailer for this. This is also a legacyquel of a film that's important to all the real Jennifer Love Hewitt knowers out there and.

[Amanda Davis]

Also the real 90s kids. Like, if you remember this, like, then you're legit. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Big summer horror movie from the 90s. In the aftermath of Scream and the phenomenon that Scream became, looks like Freddie Prinze is also back. Sarah Michelle Gellar was annihilated by the Hook Killer in the first film. So she's not back.

[Amanda Davis]

She was asked, are you coming back? And she said, no, I'm dead.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, she was.

[Amanda Davis]

She and Freddie Prinz Jr. Are still married, which is really lovely.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very sweet. They seem happy and like people. This movie stars Madeline Klein, who's best known for some anonymous streaming show that a million people love that I don't know about. Is it Ginny in Georgia? Is it Outer Banks?

[Amanda Davis]

Let's see. Because you know what?

[Sean Fennessey]

The summertime hoedown, Madeline.

[Amanda Davis]

Outer Banks.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

Which I only recently.

[Sean Fennessey]

She was also in Glass Onion, the Knives out film.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

It seems like she's very famous.

[Amanda Davis]

It seems like she's on Stranger Things as well, according to this summary.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'll take your word for it.

[Amanda Davis]

You never watch Kind of Pregnant.

[Sean Fennessey]

I never did.

[Amanda Davis]

One of the Ginny and Georgia women is on Kind of Pregnant. I thought she was pretty good.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who? What's her name? Is it Ginny or Georgia?

[Amanda Davis]

I don't know. Let's find out in real time. Ginny and Georgia. It is Georgia.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. It's not like the state of Georgia. It's not like Ginny moves to the state of Georgia. Ginny in Georgia?

[Amanda Davis]

No.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know, like Sean in Wyoming. No, it's not my dog who's in Wyoming. It's me going to the state of Wyoming to live in Jackson Hole.

[Amanda Davis]

No, it seems like no sells just remorse.

[Sean Fennessey]

Insane.

[Amanda Davis]

I was reading the plot summary of Ginny and Georgia, which seems like it's sort of Gilmore Girls esque.

[Sean Fennessey]

Great. Okay, we're doing good work here. I know what you did last summer. Metacritic score.

[Amanda Davis]

We didn't do box office.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sorry. 66 million. 41 million low selling. This one. Okay, you don't buy it?

[Amanda Davis]

Trap was my comp, which is, you know, you bring out. Excuse me. We both liked Trap, and it brought back a.

[Sean Fennessey]

This movie's gonna be way worse than Trap, but it's gonna be, I think, more liked, actually.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay, well, take that up with your people.

[Sean Fennessey]

This movie is directed by Jennifer Caton Robinson.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, I've never liked a thing that she's made. Me neither. 43 on Metacritic, I have 54.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe that was too kind. You might be onto something. Here's an interesting one. The Fantastic Four First Steps.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Big trailer released for this movie last week.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah. Didn't watch it.

[Sean Fennessey]

We saw Julia Garner as the Silver Surfer character.

[Amanda Davis]

Vanessa Kirby's pregnant. I notice you and Chris aren't talking when you're talking about the trailers.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm the father and I'm trying to keep it under wraps, so. No, we're very happy for her.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. I mean, no, not Vanessa Kirby. The person, the character.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, the invisible Woman.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah. It's pregnant, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Sue Storm. Yeah, sure. That's a. That's canon.

[Amanda Davis]

Is it?

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

They have a kid, so in the.

[Amanda Davis]

Oh, it's canon because they have a kid, so she can be pregnant.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sorry, I thought it was, like, some astounding reveal. She's a modern woman. She's both invisible and a mother.

[Amanda Davis]

I thought it was canon that she's.

[Sean Fennessey]

Always pregnant, like in perpetuity.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, that's what I thought you were saying.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You mean like all women? No, I don't. I think. I think. I'm pretty sure in the comics she has a. They have a kid. Her and her and Reed Richards.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Box office for Fantastic Four.

[Amanda Davis]

I've totally forgotten the reasoning behind any of the numbers at this point, so I'm just reading out what I wrote. Down.

[Sean Fennessey]

This has been a very normal game and a good episode.

[Amanda Davis]

It was your idea.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm pleased with it. We needed to bring this energy back to the show, if I'm being quite honest. Just yelling about you, I've got you rolling. You know, we're good.

[Amanda Davis]

I did a solely looking at all the box office and I just. I don't like email. 390 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have 378 million. We're very close.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Metacritic, 56. 67.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think this is where the bounce back happens.

[Amanda Davis]

All right. I think you want to believe that, but okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

It'd be nice. I have to see these movies for the rest of my life.

[Amanda Davis]

So I'm getting like. I'm getting weird Spidey sense off this one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

I know it's a cursed franchise or whatever, and some of that is just like Pedro Pascal enough.

[Sean Fennessey]

There just seems to be an enthusiasm maybe that I don't even personally have, but in the world. People seem to be liking the trailers. They like the look, the retro, futuristic style. They like the cast. There's just a vibe that feels positive. The movie may not be good, but we'll see The Bad Guys 2 animated movie from DreamWorks featuring the vocal talents of Sam Rockwell.

[Amanda Davis]

I'm happy for him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Last movie was a pretty big hit. It was in the neighborhood of 100 million. What do you think about this one?

[Amanda Davis]

118 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

Whoa. You went big. I went 84 million. I feel like this movie was like fake famous, you know?

[Amanda Davis]

I think.

[Sean Fennessey]

Feel like it was like influencer famous or. I was like, oh, yeah, Whatever happened to her? She's like 19 years old.

[Amanda Davis]

I've, like, interacted with a lot of young kids who know about bad guys.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was this on the beach?

[Amanda Davis]

Including, like, your. No, including your. Your child class. There's like a bad guys contingent in.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, yeah. And I didn't real. I didn't know about the bad guys until Cinemacon and Bad Guys 2 trailer played. And I was like, oh, this must be why there. And then there were some other kids just randomly on the playground, like, playing bad guys. And they were a little older, and they were like, kind of intimidating Knox. And so I inserted. I was just like, oh, are you guys playing bad guys? And they were like, no, we don't play bad guys. We are bad guys. And then we left the playground. But so see, it has a community.

[Sean Fennessey]

And all of those wonderful young men are ticket buyers for The Bad Guys 2.

[Amanda Davis]

It's in August. Like, what are you gonna do with your children. You are gonna be desperate. You're gonna go see Bad Guys 2.

[Sean Fennessey]

We haven't seen Bad Guys 1. Well, we'll see.

[Amanda Davis]

You've got a few months.

[Sean Fennessey]

We don't do a ton of male coded animated movies.

[Amanda Davis]

Well, that's on you.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, it's a really a point of preference. Okay, let's keep it moving. We gotta get through this somewhat more quickly. Wait, we need your Metacritic scores. Metacritic scores for the bad guys too.

[Amanda Davis]

54.

[Sean Fennessey]

61. Okay, just a few more left here. The Naked Gun is not true.

[Amanda Davis]

1, 2, 3, 4.

[Sean Fennessey]

9. More.

[Amanda Davis]

6, 7, 8. Gun. The Naked Gun. Okay, I wrote down 42 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

62 million.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Liam Neeson in a comedy remake reboot spinoff.

[Amanda Davis]

I. I thought it looked funny. You and Matt Bellamy definitely thought it looked funny at Cinemacon. Have you. Did you take a spin down Liam Neeson's box office recently?

[Sean Fennessey]

It's been hard times, but I think that that's due to the material he's been choosing Post.

[Amanda Davis]

I think. I think it looks good. But I was taken aback. I will say there was.

[Sean Fennessey]

There was a moment in that Non Stop the Commuter, A walk among the tombstones. That era when it was still doing pretty well. Yeah. This depends on people showing up for a comedy. Maybe I'm wrong. The vibes were good amongst the 40 something dudes.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

So I say 62 million and a 59 Metacritic score. 53 Metacritic score together. This is the Dave Franco Alison Brie body horror film that played Sundance. Awesome trailer for this movie at CinemaCon.

[Rob Harvilla]

Awesome.

[Amanda Davis]

36 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wrote 16. I could see what you're describing happening.

[Amanda Davis]

Though, because there's a lot of buzz. Again, August, like the other options are respectfully like the Naked Gun or Fantastic Four, which you've seen however many times or you don't really care about.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, it's a good date for that movie for sure. Metacritic score for together 70. I have 82.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did very well coming out of Sundance. But I didn't look at where it sits right now. Freakier Friday, August 8th. Now, I don't mind saying I thought the footage from this movie at Cinemacon was downright dreadful. But I think Freaky Friday is a fun movie. Yeah. And people love it. And it was a big hit back then. I think it made over $110 million, whatever back in 2007 or whatever came out.

[Adam Naiman]

So I think.

[Amanda Davis]

And also some of the feedback that I got from the Gen Z focus group was that there wasn't enough talk about that generations like Girl coded movies like Princess Diaries, like Freaky Friday, you know?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Amanda Davis]

All of. All of that good stuff. So it definitely has a following. And a following with people who are now grown ups.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Nostalgia with money to buy tickets.

[Amanda Davis]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

I said 117 million.

[Amanda Davis]

I said 72 million.

[Adam Naiman]

Okay.

[Amanda Davis]

Which was the mean girls?

[Sean Fennessey]

My thinking on this was the same as yours. Around Together, where I'm like, there's not a lot out here. What is it really competing against? What are kids seeing before they go back to school? Like the tweens.

[Amanda Davis]

But also sexism. So you were like, I think this looks dreadful. So I think other people probably will think.

[Sean Fennessey]

I thought you thought the filmmaker.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, no, that's. I mean, but that's how it looked.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like it was shot with a potato. I couldn't believe it. All right, so Metacritic for freaky or Friday 44. 48.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Weapons. August 8th. They released a trailer or a teaser this week. Did you watch that?

[Amanda Davis]

No, but I did see the trailer.

[Sean Fennessey]

You saw the full trailer at Cymbicon? Very effective teaser. People are excited about it.

[Amanda Davis]

It seems very upsetting. Box office, 53 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have 72.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay. That would be great.

[Sean Fennessey]

That would be an overperformance, but I think that'd be great.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Barbarian's obviously overperformed relative to his expectations. I think they're attempting to apply the long legs thing here, like mystery and intrigue around the reveals in the movie. Could work. We'll see. Metacritic score for Zach Kreger's next feature film?

[Amanda Davis]

76.

[Sean Fennessey]

75. Very close. Nobody 2, a sequel to the Bob Odenkirk surprise action movie, which actually did not do as well as I thought it did the first time around. And I'm a little surprised by this sequel. It's coming out on August 15th. Box office.

[Amanda Davis]

I have something written down here that seems really far too high. So I.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you have 418 million?

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, I do. Exactly. The number one forum of the year. 18 million.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have 33. Okay, we'll see. Metacritic, 58. 56.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a fascinating exercise. Three last films. One that was just dated yesterday. Honey, don't.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is the second solo directorial effort from Ethan Cohen, but is again co written with Trisha Cook, his wife. Ex wife. Are they still together? Who cares?

[Amanda Davis]

It's between them.

[Sean Fennessey]

Doesn't matter. They made a movie called Driveway Dolls last year that we saw together. Because you crashed my Valentine's Day date with my wife. And I liked it. Okay? You liked it a little less than me.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah, but I was amused.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was Fun. This is a reunion with Margaret Qualley for this filmmaker.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Box office 9 million. 10 million. Very close. Metacritic 56 72.

[Amanda Davis]

Oh, okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. When you release a movie, the first thing you want to do is make sure people know about it. And even more importantly, you want to make sure that people who like the genre know it's out. Because horror fans are more likely to go see new horror movies. Disney fans will go see new Disney movies. Rom com fans will go see new rom com movies. Targeting the right audience is key when it comes to marketing. If you're selling expensive new kitchen appliances, you probably want to sell to people who actually like to cook, not people who rely on food delivery services for every meal. And that's the tricky part, making sure your message gets to the right people. You have to use the right tools. If you're in B2B marketing, that means using LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has a network of over 130 million decision makers and the targeting tools to make sure you're connecting with the right ones. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills or company revenue. So you can stop wasting your time and budget on the wrong people. LinkedIn will even give you a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign. So you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com thebigpicture that's LinkedIn.com thebigpicture Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. This mother's Day show the moms in your life just how much they mean to you with a stunning bouquet from 1-800-flowers.com for almost 50 years, 1-800-flowers has set the standard for high quality bouquets.

[Amanda Davis]

Right now, order early from 1-800-FLOWERS and save up to 40% on gorgeous bouquets.

[Sean Fennessey]

And one of a kind arrangements guaranteed.

[Amanda Davis]

To make her day.

[Sean Fennessey]

Save up to 40% today at 1-800-flowers.com Spotify. That's 1-800flowers.com Spotify, the official florist of Mother's Day. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. Not everyone is careful with your personal information, which might explain why there's a victim of Identity theft every five seconds in the U.S. fortunately, there's LifeLock. Lifelock monitors high hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year by visiting lifelock.com podcast. Terms apply. Caught stealing now. I missed this trailer this is the new Darren Aronofsky movie starring Austin Butler that was described to me as a post Pulp Fiction style knockoff in not kind terms to the person who saw it. August 29th, it's released. One of the last movies of the summer. I'll be in Telluride and I don't know when I'm going to see this movie. Box office, 22 million. I have 27. Good guess. Metacritic, 61. I have 58. Okay, the last movie of the summer, the Roses. Jay Roach remaking War of the Roses with Olivia Colman and Benedict Cumberbatch as a warring couple. Box office, 8 million. I have 13.

[Amanda Davis]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Metacritic 62. 67.

[Amanda Davis]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very quickly, how many of the films that we talked about here do you think will gross over 100 million?

[Amanda Davis]

1. You mean domestic? Let's see. 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

[Rob Harvilla]

11.

[Amanda Davis]

12. 12.

[Sean Fennessey]

So I have 11. Yeah, but I have nothing over 378. And last year there were at least three movies, maybe four movies over 400. So that would be a big. A significant underperformance. Are we just. Are we a little lost? Is Fantastic Four going to be gigantic? Is Superman going to be a $600 million movie?

[Amanda Davis]

So my guesses were a little bit bigger than yours overall because you seem to be playing like the you can't go over game, which is not a part of this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wasn't part of my strategy. It just turned out that way. Maybe I was just in a bad mood last night, I guess. Looks like shit.

[Amanda Davis]

I have one movie over 400 and it's just 410. And I have a couple at the high.

[Sean Fennessey]

What are we afraid of? What are we so afraid of? What about taking a chance on a Deadpool and a Wolverine, you know?

[Amanda Davis]

Well, there's not a Deadpool and a Wolverine on the thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's not.

[Amanda Davis]

You know, there's not.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you feel like you and I will be able to heal from this?

[Amanda Davis]

I'm gonna do my best.

[Sean Fennessey]

I had fun.

[Amanda Davis]

Even as I was putting this list together, I think I was getting mad at you because I could just imagine this is like a classic Sean trap of. You put together this list where nobody is right, but you just bring a lot of confidence. And so you're just obnoxious and you're just like, it's gonna be like this. Plus, the mansplaining emails was just.

[Sean Fennessey]

I again did not utter the phrase email. So you gotta.

[Amanda Davis]

You gotta circle that square prison that you live in. What is very short sentences. You know, it's not like emailing with you is a treat.

[Sean Fennessey]

I am. I am unshackled. I am free. All right, Amanda, thank you. Let's bring in Adam Naiman to talk about the Shrouds and David Cronenberg. We've got a Canadian national treasure on to discuss a Canadian national treasure. It's Adam Naiman, the mean pod guy. How are you, Adam?

[Rob Harvilla]

I'm doing well. How are you?

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm, I'm fantastic. Before we dig into Cronenberg and the Shrouds, I wanted to ask you how you're feeling about movies in 2025. It's been a, it's been a constant point of discussion on the show this year. It's been, from my perspective, a little bit of a down first three months and then there's been some wind in our sails in April. How are you feeling as someone who spends their time watching new movies and writing about them?

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, the studio movie I enjoyed most this year got a two and a half stars from you on Letterboxd, which is Jean Collet Serra's wonderfully expressive the Woman in the Yard. I like what you wrote about it, where I think he said something like, I don't know what he's interested in beyond the camera. And I'm like, the camera? What else is there to be interested in? He's a filmmaker.

[Sean Fennessey]

Doesn't that maybe define us in some ways?

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. I don't think it's been a great start to the year. And there have been some films that I was looking forward to that other more normal people have enjoyed more than me. You know, like Black Bag and Mickey 17 are both by filmmakers I admire. They both have things in them that I admire. I would never, you know, kick those movies out of bed for eating crackers or whatever, but they're not great. And some of the things I've watched have been just abject. Taking Leah, my 8 year old, to the Minecraft movie was pretty fascinating because, you know, we're in Canada, we're more polite, but it was still a pretty rowdy, raucous, abysmal screening. And it feels like this is just going to be delayed gratification because there's some filmmakers I know you and I both like very much. You know, an obscure American filmmaker named Paul Thomas Anderson and some other heavy ish hitters who we're just going to have to kind of wait for. I mean, I hate that idea that good movies come at the end of the year. And usually I like pointing to January and February and saying, look at all the stuff that slips through, but not a lot of stuff. Stuff has slipped through. So, yeah, not the. Not the best movie year so far, but also not the best year in general. Right. So I think our relationship to how movies are making us feel and what we're. What sort of relief or. Or gratification we're getting from them, it also feels a little bit out of whack. Been watching a lot of old movies, been enjoying those.

[Sean Fennessey]

Those are good. I like those as well. I'm trying to lean on those as well. I felt a lot better in April. There's been some films that I've really enjoyed. I'm assuming that the Shrouds is the best thing that's come across your transom in 2025. Is that fair to say?

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, I got out ahead of the pack. I saw the shrouds at TIFF last year, and I'm like, best film of 2025. And, you know, you try not to make it sound like a bit. I mean, first of all, whenever we. We talk, it's an interesting venue to talk about films. There's sort of this intermingling of like. Like, you talk about the business and you talk critically and you sort of see what people are saying. So obviously, when you have enthusiasms, you risk being seen kind of as a cheerleader, or if somehow you don't like a movie, you become kind of a killjoy. You and I are both, in different ways, I think, or similar ways, I think. Tourists. You know, we have artists who we care about and who mean something to us. And not just as a Canadian, but certainly as someone of a certain age who came up watching movies at a certain time. You know, David Cronenberg means the world to me. And it's good that he also keeps making great movies, because when filmmakers who mean the world to you stumble, you have to try and be honest. I would honestly say I don't know if there's a movie of his that I feel the same way about as I do the Shrouds. I think it's very actually great, and I'm looking forward to talking about it, especially because one of the reasons it's great is because it's so close to kind of not being that good, if that makes sense.

[Sean Fennessey]

I know exactly what you mean.

[Rob Harvilla]

You know what I mean? Like, it's. It's. It's right there. And that's kind of like a thing where there's filmmakers who seem to be risking something, like, with every second of the movie going by. This is the same way I feel about Shyamalan, you know, where you're just right there where you're like, am I watching something that's uncompromised and daring and naked and exposed? Or it's like, is this just kind of stilted? And I mean, Cronenberg's a better filmmaker for me than Shyamalan. But they both have that quality of you have got to be on that wavelength.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Rob Harvilla]

And that wavelength's an interesting place to be.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think there is a particular. I guess the word I'll use is awkward. There's an awkwardness at times to the execution of the plotting of both Shyamalan and Cronenberg films that if you are uncomfortable with the tone that he pursues and explaining what the story is, it's going to be hard to get on board. I would say the Shrouds is maybe the most specific example of this that I've encountered in one of his movies in a while. And I also loved it. I also saw it last fall. I had a chance to revisit it last night. It's a movie about a 50 year old man who's just lost his wife, who is formerly a maker of industrial videos. We can talk about what that means actually and how it relates to Cronenberg. Vincent Cassel plays this man, Karsh. He's very clearly a stand in for a Cronenberg esque figure. He has quite literally Cronenberg's hairstyle in the film and hair coloring. And this kind of industrial video maker has transitioned to becoming kind of a tech magnate with an interest in graves and grave technology and particularly this shroud technology that can cover the. The dead bodies of people who are buried and then use that shroud to continue to look at the decomposing corpses. And this obviously is like a heavily load bearing metaphor. Cronenberg has recently lost his wife about seven years ago. And this is a film about processing some of that grief and also a film about the relationship to the body and lust and aging and all of these very heavy themes. But it is told in, I would describe as a bemused, almost arch tone and with a heavy dose of eroticism mixed in. Not a lot of things you would imagine would be a man's grief film. And so the way that he shoots this experience through this story and these ideas, so fascinating to me. I found the movie very funny on second watch. And I know that all of his films are kind of crypto comedies in their way, but this one in particular, and maybe it's because of that tone that you're talking about that. Can you get on board with this style that he goes for? I laughed a lot in a movie that I don't know if it started out as a point of humor for him, but were you on that wavelength too?

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, he's always funny. There's a great anecdote From Cannes in 2005 when history of Violence played there. History of Violence being one of the Cronenbergs that maybe, you know, this listenership maybe is familiar with. It's not for nothing his most American movie, even though it's shot in Canada, it's sort of the one movie that tackles, you know, America as subject for a filmmaker who's pretty low. That's when Rovigo Mortensen is this small town diner owner who turns out to be this virtuoso of violence. Absolutely fucking kicks the shit out of these bad guys, becomes a media figure. And then people are like, why are you so good at this? And it's like, well, maybe I had a past life. Anyway, when that film played at Cannes, a lot of people wrote about how at that screening, people were laughing and this European critic yelled in the middle of the Palais. He was like, can't you critics shut up and take this seriously? And I think word of that anecdote got back to Cronenberg. Certainly journalists wrote about it. I think Cronenberg's response was like, well, but it's funny. I mean, it's both. You know, it plays both ways. And that's not a cop out, where you sort of go, well, I guess if you find it funny, it's funny. It's that there's something absurd. And as you. I love the word you used, absurd and bemused. That's just built into this material. I mean, the first scene of this film is a callback to the Fly, which is also a first date between an adventure and an interested party. Except this first date doesn't go as well because Vincent Cassell's like, yeah, you know, I'm grieving my wife and I have all this money and I own this restaurant here in Toronto. And she's like, that's all very attractive. And he's like, I also own the cemetery where my wife is buried. She's like, that's nuts. He's like, hey, you want to go, like, watch a video feed of her, you know, out back? And it's very funny premise.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, it's just ridiculous. He's like poking you in the eye.

[Rob Harvilla]

She's getting really turned on. She's like, oh, you own the restaurant. He's like, yeah, I own the whole thing. And, you know, you've been made very rich. He's like, yes, I have. And then he shows her this closed circuit ultra hd. I think it's a great joke that in the movie they're trying to upscale to 8K. You know, they're like trying to get it up there. And, you know, he's just keeping tabs on his wife. And I mean, again, to. To. To. To invoke another great Canadian. You know, it's like a Nathan for you episode. You know, the plan, you know, have people comforted in their grief by watching their. Their loved ones bodies decompose. But it is a great metaphor. But it's also not a metaphor because this is what life is now is screens and trying to sublimate all of our fear and anxiety about the future or sadness about what we don't have. Or if you not even have to make a big stretch, you know, our 401ks or our kids Instagram, you're just kind of on these screens as a way of not dealing with the physical. And Cronenberg's very interested in the physical. So no matter how much he watches his wife on this screen, his dentist is still telling him, like, your teeth are rotting from grief. Which is also funny. And so I think that dealing with how funny this all is and also how relatable it is, this is where the movie is sort of amazing because he makes. I'm not trying to be glib, but, like, you know, he makes reality feel both more and less than no filmmaker has ever made reality feel both more and less than real at the same time. And some of that is just a really assured kind of filmmaking that is right on the edge of being, as you say, stilted.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's an interesting aspect of this story which is that there is a plot that sort of matters, sort of. The setup is much more important to the plot, but the plot, you know, that this. This gravesite with this new technology that we've just described is sort of pillaged at a certain point and destroyed. And there becomes this quest to discover who is responsible for this act of vandalism. And it's sort of a whodunit with a sort of meaningless pursuit of the truth. And I love the meaninglessness of the plot in so many ways because it speaks to this paranoia that we have about all experiences that we have now that is informed at least in part by this technology that you're talking about. Cronenberg, basically, since the Very beginning of his career, has had a keen eye towards, if not technophobia, like a real suspicion and anxiety about the way that technology has sort of like intercepted our humanity. And this movie feels like it is taking it to its logical conclusion of death. Like, in the past, it has been about where it has taken us while we are still alive. And this is kind of the final act of how there is a dividing line between those screens that you're talking about and these, you know, these, like, what is perceived to be, like, tracking devices early on in the film. And this idea that you're being watched all the time.

[Rob Harvilla]

Well, yeah, because there's the dual conspiracy narrative. And Cronenberg at Cannes got a little snippy. I think he has the right because he's one of the greatest living filmmakers with critics who were like, why is this about conspiracy? You know, these conspiracy plots are strange. And Cronin and David was like, well, you know, conspiracy theories tend to occur to people when they're upset about things. And he's gesturing broadly here at every aspect of our current reality, you know, without. Without putting too fine a point on it. So not just the question of who vandalizes the graves, but the question of who seemingly has put tracking devices on his dead wife's body within the grave. And whether these two things are connected or if these strange growths, these post mortem growths on her body that the camera picks up, are they connected to the vandalism at all? And, of course, it doesn't just perturb Karsh that this is happening. It's quite like a turn on for him, especially because he's discussing these conspiracy theories with his dead wife's twin sister, also played by Diane Kruger. So immediately you're into this Cronenberg arena of doppelgangers and, you know, quite literally dead ringers and this kind of perverse sibling relationship. When you talk about those screens and the eroticism of it. I mean, if people have seen Videodrome, and if you haven't see Videodrome, it's. I think it's on Criterion Channel now. It's great. The first line of that movie is Civic tv, the one you take to bed with you. I mean, there aren't cell phones yet, but that's a movie where James woods kind of wakes up and there's a girl on a screen being like, by the way, I'm your sexy girl Friday. Here's all the stuff you need to do today. Which happens again in the Shrouds, except it's a personal assistant, an AI Avatar, who, for maximum perversity, looks exactly like his dead wife and his living sister in law and is played again by Diane Kruger, who's playing three parts the same way Miranda Richardson played three parts in Spider. I mean, this is like deep down the auteurist rabbit hole. And I've interviewed Cronenberg enough times to know he does two things that are very funny. He says, it's not like I have a checklist where I put all this stuff in my movies. But he always says, it's also not like I have a checklist. So it's like the other item on the checklist is to remind people he doesn't have the checklist. You know, but he couldn't not make movies about these things even if he tried. And I think the fact that he is so willing to put these things on display, these preoccupations and anxieties and fetishes and things he's fascinated with. I mean, it's what an artist does. And this is why it seems so hard for him to find financing or to get his movies made, which I think is another subtext to this film. Because without calling anyone out for not being an artist, I'm not going to to be mean and say, here's all the people, I think, who are making movies in his shadow, who aren't actually that good. He is that good. And he does not compromise or bend for anything, sometimes to his industrial disadvantage, you know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I totally agree. Of course, I think what he might have been accused of if he had not made that compelling pivot in the 2000s to a history of violence, Eastern promises a dangerous method. Like, you know, he obviously, he kind of transitioned tonally. And Crimes of the Future was hailed as like kind of a return to body horror form, whatever that might mean for Cronenberg. I think now the film is almost resistant to some of those criticisms because it's just a perfect act of late style. You know, it's just sort of like these are the things that interest him most. These are the ideas that he is the best at burrowing into and helping us better understand. So the one thing I did want to ask you about that I think is interesting about him and interesting about a lot of our shared preoccupations as filmmakers is this line between auto fiction and that checklist that you talk about and entertainment and can you watch a movie like the Shrouds, as a lot of listeners of this show will, but maybe have not seen Videodrome or maybe haven't seen even more specifically some of the The Brood or Scanners or some of the more like, totemic, if you're a cinephile, films that Cronenberg has made, but maybe not as mainstream movies. Can you enjoy this movie to its fullest extent if you don't have this reservoir of Cronenberg admiration or at least knowledge?

[Rob Harvilla]

I'm sure the film's very intrepid distributor, Sideshow, would like the answer to that to be, of course. And, you know, as people who like the film, you do want to say yes, but it's a smart question because it is so bound up in the mythos and not the idea of, like, a Cronenberg cinematic universe. He's not cute like that. It's not the Tarantino thing where it's like, oh, this guy's this character's brother something, but it really is this hall of. I don't want to say mirrors, but this hall of reflections and resonances and signifiers that do accrue the more you know about him. On the other hand, anybody who's lost anybody might watch this film and, depending on how certain moments or scenes hit them, find it devastating. I have a friend who I saw this movie with at. At Tiff. I won't say too much about her, but she's someone who had suffered. Suffered a terrible loss, and she couldn't make it through the first 10 or 15 minutes of the movie. And that's even with the Ryus and the archness and the strangeness. Because I think that when what this movie is saying about the finality of that loss and that the only way to hold on to someone after they're gone is to, what, keep tabs on their corpse. You know, the futility of that and the comfort of that. Especially when you think about people looking through photo albums or looking through Instagram, you know, memorials or whatever else, if it hits you that way, I don't think it matters if you've seen a Cronenberg movie or not. I don't think it matters if you like him or not. The older he's getting, the closer and closer he gets to the Universal. And in some ways, like, there is a lot of metaphor in this movie, but it's not even like the Fly, where you have to do the undergrad thing of being like, he's turning into a fly. So that's about cancer, which it was, right? In this movie, you're just like, sky lost his wife, and he's dreaming about her, and he can't get rid of her because she's just in his face. All the time she's in the grave and he can see her. She's on his screens because that's his weird virtual assistant and his ex and his sister in law is there. And like, what's he gonna do? So I do think people can watch this movie and appreciate it. On the other hand, it's interesting to me what you're saying about Late Style and whatever else where I think for people who need a certain amount of continuity or plausibility or fluidity to storytelling, it's a bit of a challenge. But so too is it in a lot of these late filmmakers like Abel Ferrara or, you know, De Palma's Domino, which are movies that they're pretty close to seeming terrible, you know, and maybe people kind of have to train, not train themselves or be trained, but they kind of have to accept that this is a very different experience than. And I'm not trying to, like, I keep resisting naming younger filmmakers because I'm not trying to be mean. But there are filmmakers who are definitely influenced by Cronenberg and I think they in a way dilute him. Him or distill him, or take the surfaces of what he's doing without the actual content. For instance, I don't really hate the substance or anything, but people comparing that movie to Cronenberg is the most superficial thing in the world. But also, yeah, maybe an easier watch for certain generation of cinephile now than like Late Style Cronenberg.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, I want to come back to that. I think it's notable to me that really since the end of the century when he made Existens, he really had not made what you could define as a classical Cronenberg movie. The films that he made since then are Spider, which is one of the first movies I ever reviewed for my college newspaper, which I absolutely love. A history of Violence, Eastern Promises, A Dangerous Method, Cosmopolis, Maps of the Stars, which I think is now wildly underrated in such a similarly so hilarious and dark film. And then Crimes of the Future and the Shrouds is this return to form that I mentioned. And he's in his 70s now. And I wonder if there is a very purposeful, intentional kind of reclamation of his throne, for lack of a better phrase. And so the substance was this, I think, interesting follow up to Julia Ducarno's celebration over the previous five years with. With Raw into Tan. And she has a new film at Cannes actually coming this year, Alpha, and her being kind of hailed as a successor. I know there's a very strong line of criticism of the substance and that its connectivity to Cronenberg is maybe only in the kind of, like, physical manifestation of the idea. And that everything else is like. There's something much more manic, I would say, about the substance that doesn't really exist in any Cronenberg movie. But I do find it fascinating that most of the, quote unquote, practitioners of the people who say they're most inspired by him are women. And a lot of his successors, for lack of a better phrase, are not men. They're not. You know, a lot of dudes went on to make horror movies who really like Cronenberg. But they don't really do these existential examinations of our relationship to the body and the outside world's technology. In the same way that these women do. And I'm curious how you feel about that. Setting aside even whether you like Ducournau or Farja's movies.

[Rob Harvilla]

I think Titan comes by its Cronenberg shout outs, honestly. And it's a movie that we all have movies where we kind of react one way and then with time. That's actually a film that I have a little more time for than when it first came out. I think when that came out and won at Cannes, I was frustrated that when Claire Denis brought Trouble Every day to Cannes in 2001. They were like, get out of here. And when Cronenberg brought Crash to Cannes, they're like, we have to make up an award for you because we hate this so much. And then she wins the Palme d'or. And instead of feeling like this is about laying the groundwork. You kind of feel like this is like carpet bagging. You know, it's these Johnny Come latelys get praise for the things that the older guard did. And I'm never gonna be okay with the fact that the John Carpenters and Cronenbergs and Verhoevens and Breyats of the world. Have, I don't think, reinvented themselves as art filmmakers. Cause they've always been artists. But, like, that's the distribution sphere that they have to kind of enter into. And the A24s and neons of the world, I mean, they've dipped their. They did a little bit. And Crimes of the Future I thought was quite mishandled as a piece of distribution. Because they tried to sell it like a William Castle movie. They're like, you'll throw up. And it's like, that's not the movie. I think the Shroud's being marketed very well. But I love your point about a lot of his Inheritors being female filmmakers, or I would add to that queer filmmakers. Because Cronenberg has never cast particularly macho shadow just by virtue of being a filmmaker who's about sex and sexuality. He doesn't fit the macho horror template because he's not afraid of sex. He's not a filmmaker who's like, the second someone has to have sex in his movies, they have to die. He's not a slasher filmmaker. And I think he's also hard to put in a political box because if you look at the writing on his movies early in his career in Canada, people kind of couldn't decide if the problem was that he was an anarchist or that he was a kind of staunch conservative. I mean, I don't know how deep a dive we're going to do until, like Cronenberg lore. But listeners should know that controversy with him didn't get invented with Crash. I mean, this is a guy who was debated in the halls of Canadian Parliament for spending taxpayer money. We have a government filmmaking system here in Canada. And what pissed them off the Most in the 70s was that his movies made money. You know, he actually repaid his government loans because he found stuff that people wanted to see. There was a critic named Robert Fulford who wrote under a pseudonym, Marshall Delaney, in Saturday Night, which is the big Canadian cultural magazine at the time. And he's basically like, this is pornography and the government shouldn't subsidize it. Cronenberg got evicted from his apartment. His landlady thought that he was a pornographer, that they came to his house looking for, you know, pornographic film materials. And he had an amazing line, David. He wrote in the Globe and Mail at the time. He said, I told the guy he could come in and look around, he wouldn't know what he's looking for. Which is his reaction to censors in general. Not by which he means I have the stuff hidden really well, but that people who want to censor art are idiots. And I think one of the most endearing things about him is how he's carried that through line about censorship and liberty and the need to transgress in art. He has never backed down from it an inch. And I find it deeply, deeply moving.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think he's also a bit of a jester, a bit of a Cheshire cat with some of those things. Like, one of the reasons why is because he. He cast Marilyn Chambers in one of his first films, which is a sort of, like, dare. It's a sort of challenge in rabid to say, is this Pornography, you know, And I think that obviously, like an unsophisticated critic or a conservative leaning critic would willingly just take the bait and pick the fight and happily pick the fight to draw attention to oneself or whatever, or to stand up for their supposed morals. But. But I think his willingness to stick with it. One of the things that moves me about the Shrouds that I've heard him talk about that I really like is I've lost people in my life, but I've not lost a partner or spouse. And he said, the one thing with a partner and a spouse is that you build a relationship not just to the person and their soul and the way that you love them, but a physical relationship to their body that you are connected to their body. And you've had, you know, he had 40 years with his wife's body. And so the whole movie is really premised upon this idea of his wife losing aspects of her body in real time while she's alive and then ultimately dying. And him quite literally walking through the psychological phases of physical loss. And not just emotional, sentimental loss or these ideas, the things we talk about when someone, you know, quote unquote passes on like this is a physical confrontation with losing something that you're used to touching every day. And I've never really seen that in a film before. I thought that was so sophisticated.

[Rob Harvilla]

No, it is sophisticated. The idea that a person becomes like a phantom limb to you, you know, and it's sophisticated and it's mature and it's the sort of thing that. I'm not saying young people can't make sophisticated movies about loss and aging. I mean, they can. And not every old filmmaker is a sage, you know, but there is a lived in quality to this movie that I think is a little bit at odds with, let's say, this kind of grandiloquent formalism and a lot of the young genre and genre adjacent filmmakers where it really is about creating a mood and creating a composition and how cool you can make things look and leaning on old myths or old sort of genre, you know, on old genre tropes and sort of showing mastery and control. Cronenberg shows control in a different way, which is he makes it as spare and lean and down to the bone as possible. And that's where he hangs this stuff that I don't think is really, you know, conducive to screen grab culture or one perfect shot culture, but that, you know, that, that, that drills down even deeper, you know. And one thing that I would say about him, I mean, you Try not to use too much hyperbole. I don't know how you'd feel about this, because when I go through it in my head, I'm hard pressed. I cannot think of a better director of actors in a way. You know, I'm talking James woods in Videodrome, Jeff Goldblum in the Fly, Peter Weller in Naked Lunch, Viggo in Everything, you know, and even Vincent Cassell. And no shade on Vincent Cassel. But like, Vincent Cassel is not typically thought of, I think, as a particularly resourceful or soulful actor.

[Sean Fennessey]

Soulful is the word I was. He's not very soulful, no, but he's.

[Rob Harvilla]

Brilliant in this movie, you know, and not just as an impersonation of Cronenberg, but, like, getting inside this weird mix of, like, arrogance and superiority and also, like, deep vulnerability and curiosity, you know, Actors trust him implicitly. I've interviewed Viggo a couple of times about this, and he says that working with Cronenberg is like nothing else in terms of the. In terms of the level of trust that he kind of cultivates and that he gets. If I were to judge Mortensen on the three or four movies he's made with Cronenberg, he's one of the greatest actors I've ever seen. And I'm not saying that makes him bad in other things. I'm just like, man, he works with some actors and Cassel's another one because Cassell's great in Eastern Promises and in Dangerous Method. And I think that there's no chance in hell of Cassel getting an Oscar nomination for this movie. I mean, we know it's not going to happen, but to me, it's one of the most interesting performances I've seen in a while. And also one of the best costume designs I've seen in a while. Because this movie is partially financed by Saint Laurent. And Vincent Cassel was a drip God in the shrouds. My God.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't usually associate Cronenberg with being one of the most stylish men in the universe. That is an interesting elevation of the character. Sometimes we see ourselves slightly more beautiful than we actually are.

[Rob Harvilla]

You know, he's always cleaned up. Cleaned up. Okay. You know, he's used to being on red carpets, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's true. Can I ask you.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, one last thing, sort of on, like, the Legacy tip that is interesting to me. Cause I've talked to his son a couple of times, and I like Brandon's movies, too. And I think that they Are, like, obviously wildly informed by his father, but they're not replications. And one thing that he shares, that I think some of those female filmmakers we were talking about share, is this kind of lean in the direction of the psychotronic. That there's something like hallucinogenic almost when you're watching those movies, which I think. I guess you could say when you're watching the sort of handgun sequence in Videodrome, for example, that there, it does feel like you're in a. Like a dream state, but it doesn't have that convulsive, aggressive quality that I think so many of the filmmakers that are carrying his torch carry on. And I'm kind of wondering, like, why that is. Is that a product of these times and the fact that in order to make these ideas make sense, everything has to feel more crazy and a little bit less sustained. What do you think about that?

[Rob Harvilla]

That's a great question. Because he has a psych. David has a psychotronic impulse. It's in Videodrome. It's in Naked Lunch. Although in Naked Lunch, he does it entirely through analog means because he makes it a period piece, right? So you have, like, people ripping outer bodies away and head trips and hallucinations, but they're rendered, you know, quite literally. Or a film like existence, you know, as you say, has virtual reality, but it's always rooted in something very physical, like, you know, the handgun or the body ports. My example for this would be one of his underrated films. I mean, if you start calling everyone's films underrated, you sound like a shill. But a lot of them are underrated, including by me, I should say, on the record. I wrote at the time. I don't like Existence. I don't think Cosmopolis is very good. I don't think Maps of the Stars is good. And then I always feel stupid because six months later, I'm like, no, these movies have expanded like a bullet in my brain. You know, those bullet was the Full Metal Jacket bullets that get bigger.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I just say, just. Just because I just saw one of this guy's movies, it's. To me, it's the same thing with Wes Anderson, which Wes Anderson and David Cronenberg could not be more different. But every time I watch a Wes Anderson movie a second time, I have my mind expanded by the movie. And Cronenberg.

[Rob Harvilla]

Oh, you just saw. You just saw one of this guy's movies. Could it have been a movie about a scheme?

[Sean Fennessey]

It could be a movie about a scheme. Yeah. And so when I saw that Scheme. I was like, I need to see this again soon so that I can expand my understanding of the movie.

[Rob Harvilla]

But in Cosmopolis, there's a scene where Robert Pattinson, great. In Cosmopolis, by the way, Cronenberg got to him first.

[Sean Fennessey]

That was the first sign that we were excited about Robert Pattinson. Yes, exactly.

[Rob Harvilla]

Except for the movie where at the end Robert Pattinson dies in 9 11.

[Sean Fennessey]

I guess that was before Cosmopolitan movie.

[Rob Harvilla]

Of that year, whatever it's called, the number one film. Yeah, my God. But there's a scene in Cosmopolis where Robert Pattinson goes to see Sarah Gaddin at a play. And they're outside the theater and the poster just says stage play. But it's the same way that in Existens in the Existenz world, I think Vince, Willem Dafoe works at a filling station. It just says like gas station. And that's him being funny. It's sort of him saying, you know, rather than try and heighten this level of simulacrum, trying to really kind of, you know, fill the screen with surreal details. It's like, let's just strip away.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you remember Willem Dafoe's character's name from Existence?

[Rob Harvilla]

Is it gas?

[Sean Fennessey]

It's gas.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, it's gas. Yeah. He runs a gas station. So I mean, again, it's a form of surreality, right? And I do think that it shows a certain amount of confidence. And I also think that he's also a real master of a little goes a long way. That's why the Fly is kind of deceptive. On the one hand, I love the Fly, and if I had to pick a best Cronenberg, it's right there for me with Crash in the Shrouds. But that's the movie, I think, that gave people a bit of a mission, this miscalibrated idea of him, because it really is kind of a gore fest. And it's such a great mid-80s gore fest. You could be like, oh, David Cronenberg, he's that guy, you know, he's the guy with turned the baboon inside out. And Jeff Goldblum, you know, vomits on John Getz's legs and then they melt. And there's a little bit of that in the Dead zone too, which has a couple moments of just show stopping gore. Like when the deputy, you know, cuts his mouth open with the scissors and stuff. But elsewhere he's pretty judicious. Like, I always think of a Dead Ringers as a movie that's two hours with no gore and then there's the one dream scene in the middle where Jean B. Of Bugeol bites the two. Jeremy irons apart that growth and, you know, a little goes a long way.

[Sean Fennessey]

It does. If you had to recommend people, essentially a starter pack for Cronenberg. This is not a ranking, but for people who don't know his work, and I think this is going to be.

[Rob Harvilla]

You've never ranked movies on this podcast.

[Sean Fennessey]

I've never. I would never. Because art is not a subjective or objective practice. It's an emotional practice. And so we don't.

[Rob Harvilla]

There's no numbers.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's no hierarchy. Obviously, no one should win awards and they won't win awards.

[Rob Harvilla]

Starter pack. Starter pack.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a starter pack. In case you are going to begin watching Cronenberg. If you just listen to us talk for 40 minutes about the shrouds and you've never seen a Cronenberg movie, you. I'd like to say thank you. But where should they start?

[Rob Harvilla]

I think you and I would both say the Brood is pretty important.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. Might be my favorite.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah. Well, it's a bit of a late start because there are movies before it and I think the lore, the low budget Canadian tax shelter lore of stuff like Rabbit and Shivers is essential. I mean, I think they're all essential. But I don't suggest people start with like, you know, the original Crimes of the future or stereo, because that's some tough going.

[Sean Fennessey]

Those are hard sets.

[Rob Harvilla]

Hard sets. You know, the. The Brood, which is his version, he said, of Kramer vs Kramer movie that came after his divorce. A movie, but a custody battle. And the way that the. The rage within this family becomes internalized and then externalized. I won't spoil it. But, you know, suffice it to say it's a. It's an evil kid movie, sort of really a fun comparison to something like Rosemary's Baby or the Exorcist at that time. Because the horror is totally biological and scientific. It's not supernatural. You know, and I think the part of the substance that is Cronenberg is he does love scenes where people are sitting in an audience and something disgusting happens, like in Brood or in Scanners. I mean, that's very Cronenberg at the end of the Substance, you know, where it's like, we all came to see this thing. I hope nothing bad happens.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a great observation.

[Rob Harvilla]

And explodes. I think the Brood is essential. I think Videodrome is essential as a movie about the Internet, before the Internet was invented, and as an absolute masterpiece of Toronto pettiness because Cronenberg had a grudge with Moses Nimer, who was the creator of City tv, a forerunner to mtv, a kind of hip urban TV station. Nimer had sort of big time Cronenberg at some party in la. So in the civic TV scene, Civic TV being a parody of City tv when James woods kills a bunch of people. At one point you hear him yell like, hey, Moses. And the guy's head gets blown off. So, you know, we Stan a petty Toronto king, rude Videodrome. I love the Fly. I defy anybody to not be moved by that film and by Goldblum's performance. That's the urge F. Goldblum performance. We don't have Jurassic Park, Jeff Goldblum, without Cronenberg. Jeff Goldblum. And that's just a fact, you know? And then, I don't know, I don't want to skip anything, but we're trying to be precise here. Yeah, give me two more crashes. Crash is incredible. I saw that movie during COVID at a drive in. Bad movie to watch at a drive in, but also perfect movie to watch at a drive in.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very amusing programming during COVID Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Harvilla]

It was great Covid. It was programming. And actually there was like a club that was open, an open air club down the streets. You could hear weekend songs drifting over. And I was like two great Canadian Toronto pain fetishists, David Cronenberg and Abel, you know, together, together at last. And then I kind of cited the Vigo films as. As all good. I mean, I just. I love A History of island, you know, I really do. And that was the film, I think, that convinced people we like using this terminology of we're back. But he was back with that because Spider did not exactly set the world on fire commercially. History of Violence actually got some Oscar nominations. It got the wrong ones. It was nominated for its script, which he mostly rewrote, I've heard. And for William Hurt instead of Maria Bello or Mortensen, who are both incredible. But yeah, what a. What a. What a film.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, that William Hurt nomination is fascinating. I do love those scenes between the two of them. But that's a really weird nomination.

[Rob Harvilla]

It's a really weird nomination. And he's funny, but the performance is only funny in counterpoint to what VGO's doing. Fans of, like, post Tarantino, like Hitman, slapstick, History of Violence has some of that. It has maybe the funniest dropped gun I've ever seen. And actually that's credit to William Hurt. His reaction to this dropped gun is just. And that movie is a little atypical for Cronenberg, too, which is why he brings it back to him same way that Eastern Promises. I don't think started as a very Cronenbergian project, but by the time Viggo's, you know, being stabbed in the Turkish bath naked and, you know, ripping people's eye sockets out and stuff, it's like, yeah, he brought it back to him. What about you?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think you hit on the five classics. I have been meaning to return to the Dead Zone, which is a movie that is probably the first of his movies that I saw and probably maybe didn't fully understand as a very young person seeing it. And I've seen it a few times since then, but has left an impression on me and feels in some ways like an outlier in his movies because it's such a studio film and it's such a, you know, it's an adaptation. It's not an original and. But I really quite like it. And I think that idea of a great director of actors that you identified is particularly true with Walken in that movie, who never lets the Walkenness overwhelm the character, which can sometimes happen in his movies, as you know. And so I really love that, you know, Dead Ringers has never been a favorite of mine. I feel like, always a better idea than a film in some ways, but. But I'm going to give that one another spin, too. And the other one that's I think, been somewhat reclaimed in recent years is Zen Butterfly, which I think was somewhat similarly, like, ignored, overlooked, because it didn't have some of his hallmarks as Spider. But I think the five that you named are rock solid. I think Scanners has, like, a punk rock fandom, you know, because it's got. It's the one movie that has been sort of memed. You know, it has the exploding head that you cited. And the Michael Ironside energy is just off the charts in that movie. But I like the five that you chose.

[Rob Harvilla]

One more plug. Attentive viewers may have noticed over my shoulder this large purple book that's been sitting here the entire time. It's a new book by Violet Luca on David Cronenberg called David Cronenberg Clinical Trials. It's really good, and it's just out. I know that they're doing some screening events with it here or there, so that is why it is deftly, deftly over my shoulder.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very cool. I will check that out. I did not know that that was released. Adam, always a joy. So nice to see you. What are you writing on where can we see you?

[Rob Harvilla]

I'm writing on the Shrouds elsewhere because I covered it for the ringer in the Tiff Dispatch. But it'll spoiler it will probably end up on year end 10 best list. And then I just exist here in Toronto. You can always read me on, on, on on the site and always happy to, to. To. To come on here to talk about great, great filmmakers with you. This is the first time since the Brutalist, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

It is, yeah, it is. And how did you remember that movie Shook out with the Brutalist. Did it work out with.

[Rob Harvilla]

With the movie? Yeah, well, you know, I got, I got my profit participation. It was fine. Yeah, the Brutalist. I do think that, you know, Brady Courbet is now in this category of like what, what will he do next? You know, he has the center of gravity of what is the next.

[Sean Fennessey]

I made a similar observation that the pursuit of cult of personality was achieved.

[Rob Harvilla]

Here's a live reaction from you on air. Do you like the little trailer tidbits for the Zach Krieger surveillance horror movie thing? Have you seen these for weapons?

[Sean Fennessey]

Unfortunately, I already saw. Well, fortunately for me, I already saw the full trailer when I was at Cinemacon in Vegas. So I already know what it's going to look like. But I suspect that they're going to play the long legs marketing game with this movie because there's a couple of images that are in the trailer that are fucked up in the way that I think you and I tend to enjoy. So hopefully it works out.

[Rob Harvilla]

It terrifies me to think that someone's finally made a movie about children running around my house at night. This is basically what I live with. Anyway. Like my younger one got up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom and I was like. Don't you realize that this is the fear that's capturing America this summer? What you're doing right now, maybe a.

[Sean Fennessey]

Secret sequel to the Brood. You know, it's in play.

[Rob Harvilla]

And then she. And then she's like, I'm going back to bed, dad. Cool. It was great, great to talk about the Shrouds, which is opening. And I hope people. I hope people see it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I hope so too. Good to see you, Adam.

[Rob Harvilla]

Yeah, you too.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you. To Adam. Okay, now let's go to my conversation with the great David Cronenberg. It's an honor to have David Cronenberg here in studio on the show. David, we spoke for Crimes of the Future and I think I asked you if that would be your last film during that conversation. And I think you were a little circumspect. You said you had ideas. Was there ever a time when you would have been comfortable with that being your last film?

[Adam Naiman]

Oh, I really thought Cosmic Cosmopolis would be my last film. And then I thought Maps to the Stars would be my last film. And when my wife died in 2017, I really thought that that might be the end of it, just because of the emotional despair and this change shift emotionally in my life and so on. So I thought. I didn't think that I would stop being creative because I had written a novel. And I thought, well, I'll probably write an another novel. But I don't know if I could go through the very complex process of filmmaking, which involves a lot of other people and financing and so on. So in each case. But it's not like Steven Soderbergh, who I think has ended his filmmaking career five or six times and still is making films, thankfully. On the other hand, there's Manuel Dolivera, who's a Portuguese filmmaker, and he was still directing when he was 100. And I'm thinking, yeah, okay, maybe his films were a little static at that point, but he was still making them, you know. So I'm thinking it's just. You just don't know. You just don't know. I mean, filmmaking is changing a lot because of the combination of COVID and Netflix, I think, has really completely altered the cinema landscape. So it's a strange time for movies right now. Strange time.

[Sean Fennessey]

I do want to ask you about Netflix, because I know they were potentially a part of this story. But it's curious because the film is so personal. I think I've heard you say that it's your most personal movie. Was there any part of you that was Even having made 20 plus films, nervous during this process of trying?

[Adam Naiman]

No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, it's interesting, though. I'm 82 now, from 2017 to whatever, five years, I hadn't made a film. I was taking care of my wife and this and that. So I was wondering whether I would have the focus and the stamina, because it's a very physical act, filmmaking for a director. You need a lot of intensity and you need a lot of stamina. So I wondered about that. Would I have it? Would I not? Would it change? Would I be halfway through the movie and directing the movie and say, you know, I can't do it anymore? You know, all of those things are possible. But I found that it was, you know, the classic, like, Riding a bicycle kind of thing. I could still do it. So I feel, yeah, I could keep going until. I mean, you know, you think of John Huston directing a quite good movie. Actually was called the Dead while he was in a wheelchair with oxygen mask on his face. So it's like, okay, these are kind of strange models to have, but I guess I have them all the way.

[Sean Fennessey]

At the end of the process. I know you've said that making the film isn't necessarily cathartic, that it's energizing to be making art, but what about when the movie comes out and it's received? Does it make you feel better or worse about the endeavor, the reception, the box office, all of those things?

[Adam Naiman]

It's a curious thing. You're interested in the audience reaction, of course, because you've made it for an audience. And then you. Of course, if you get a bad review, you get defensive. And then if you get a good review that's very sensitive, it's terrific.

[Sean Fennessey]

Will you still read them? Will you look at the reviews?

[Adam Naiman]

Up to a point, and then at a certain point, and it's quite a delicious point, really, you say, actually, I don't care what you think. I don't care what anybody thinks. I'm finished with it. And you'll find that a lot of filmmakers don't look at their old movies. I mean, I barely remember Crimes of the Future, which was my last movie before the Shroud. I don't remember the movie. I don't remember the responses, more or less. And you want that because you want to go forward. You don't want to keep living in the past, which is why I'm usually reluctant to do, let's say, interviews that want to talk about my career and my life's work. And it's boring to me. I just don't really want to do it. I'd be telling the same stories that I told 50 years ago when I was actually making those movies. Talking about the Shrouds is exciting still to me, and I do. It's actually quite possible to discover new things about the movie while you're talking about it. And you live for those moments, you know, because you're not just saying the same thing over and over again. You are discovering some interesting things.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, let me ask you one thing about it and its conception. I think I found this to be possibly your funniest movie as well. Despite the subject matter.

[Adam Naiman]

No, I think all my movies are really quite hilarious.

[Sean Fennessey]

They are all quite funny. But I thought this one was particular, at least. I thought quite bemused by its own absurdity, which I really enjoyed.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah, I mean, it does have a particular flavor of comedy, but I think some of the other ones are maybe more slapsticky.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's true. That is true.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah. I think. I don't know how you could live without a sense of humor about yourself and about the absurdity of life and so on. I really do think we have evolved a sense of humor as a sort of survival strategy, really, because our minds are so active and so anticipatory and so sometimes so deadly. How can you survive without a sense of humor? You have to have one. And. And so in that sense, the movies that I make are full reflection of many aspects of myself and my life, and therefore they have to have humor in them.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you find that when you're conceiving a story, you're thinking hard about tone because there's always a lot of sort of moving pieces, and you're creating worlds often in your films. You're creating new technologies often in your films. But are you thinking specifically about how that sense of humor will infiltrate, or is it the sort of thing that just comes naturally?

[Adam Naiman]

No, it just comes naturally. I'm not really in control. It's not like I have it planned carefully. Yeah, it's just instinctive and natural, really.

[Sean Fennessey]

The relationship to biotech in your films is obviously quite extensive. This one feels like sort of the endpoint of that conversation, in some ways, almost the literal endpoint of that conversation. But going back, many people are always pointing out to you your prescience for all of these issues in particular. But it seems like some of them are accidental and some of them are purposeful. In this film, despite the absurdity of the framework, do you feel like there is a world where we are going in a direction where observance of death is possibly this literalized?

[Adam Naiman]

You know, I don't really think of art as prophecy, and I don't really think for sure of me as a prophet either. It's just I've noticed some reviews are talking about the deadly presence of, you know, disarming tech and identity and falseness and disinformation and stuff, and that I was making a statement about it, but actually I was just, this is the way people live. And, you know, the number of times people are on their phone is just the way people are doing it these days. And the number of times people are on their laptops and are, you know, making international phone calls on their phone without thinking twice about it. To me, I was just being Observing the way things are. And if people are finding that to be sinister, so be it. You know, maybe for them it is. For me, it was just, as I say, observing this. This lead character, Karsh, is a high tech entrepreneur. He's very familiar with tech. And in fact, that's his bailiwick. That's how that's his creative outlet, is tech. And so all of those things are just natural. And yes, he drives a Tesla, which has resonances now that it didn't have when I was shooting the movie. But I drive a Tesla and I have to say that I have a very, very intimate personal relationship with my Tesla that has nothing to do with Elon Musk. So I'm not selling the Tesla. If people want to egg it or break its windows, okay, whatever. But it's just natural. And I felt that Karsh, as this tech guy, would of course he'd drive a Tesla because that actually is a groundbreaking vehicle, very important in the history of cars and electric vehicles. And so he would of course want to experience that.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's this ongoing dialogue among movie fans that a lot of the great filmmakers who are getting older are not making nearly as many contemporary pieces because you have. The inclusion of the cell phone is a difficult storytelling issue, but this film, the cell phone is essential to the story that you're telling. Absolutely.

[Adam Naiman]

I mean, if you're watching streaming series, half the time people are on the phone and that's accurate. That's the way people are now. But.

[Sean Fennessey]

And the way I found a way in this movie that the cell phone usage is the way it's shot, the way it looks, feels the way that it would feel as opposed to. I find in contemporary set stories it doesn't quite capture the same like addiction and the sort of like extension of ourself that the phone often is. How did you think about how to frame a cell phone and how it related to Karsha's life?

[Adam Naiman]

Really very pragmatic. I mean, I just felt when a character would be on the phone, they'll be on the phone. And I have to figure. And of course, in writing the screenplay, I wasn't thinking about how I'm going to cover it. Is it going to be a close up? Is it going to be a medium shot? Are we going to do it live or are we going to do you cg to put stuff on the phone? I don't do storyboards. So when I'm shooting it, it's just instinctive and very natural. It wasn't really meant to be I had no agenda in terms of commenting on tech. It just. These were characters who would be very comfortable with tech, and they wouldn't think twice about it because it was their environment. And that's the way I approached it.

[Sean Fennessey]

One of the other things that has a fascinating relationship to is the AI assistant in the film, and that is an extension of Diane Kruger's character.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was wondering what your relationship is to cell phones and AI assistants and the like. You already mentioned you drive a Tesla. Are these things a part of your life? Do you feel like you are addicted to your phone? Do you use these tools?

[Adam Naiman]

Absolutely. I mean, if you lose your phone, you are really. You're dead. I mean, you don't exist anymore, you know, And I often say I have outsourced my memory to my phone because often it's like that guy who was in that film that was about that thing. Let me just look it up, and you. You know, and that's where we are. So I felt that the film was totally realistic in terms of tech, even grave tech. This thing that the lead character, Karsh, played by Vincent Cassel, comes up with, is technically totally feasible now. I mean, I liked it when I was doing, you know, talking to audiences and stuff. I would playfully say I'm selling franchises for this cemetery. Maybe you could just have one grave in your backyard to start with, but then you could expand, you know. So if you want a franchise, I'm willing to talk to you. It's totally possible. I mean, it's basically cameras in the grave with some lighting, and you have an app that controls it. And that's all. I mean, I am, for example, talking to you. I have hearing aids that are controlled by my phone through Bluetooth. I've had cataract eye surgery. So I'm looking at you through plastic lenses that replace my natural lenses. So I'm totally bionic, you know, And I'm not the only one. It's amazing the number of people I get into discussions about hearing aids with ubc. Surprised? So all natural. And I think, yeah. I mean, my career as a filmmaker would have ended maybe five movies ago if it weren't for hearing aids. Because my hearing, you know, it's genetic. My mother was a musician with hearing aids. My uncle, her brother was a violinist. Also hearing aids, you know, So I welcome that tech. I mean, of course. And I don't think twice about it. I mean, it's just natural.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's fascinating that your career and your family's careers, their life's work, hearing is a necessity and that something is sort of taken away from you biologically and that we need to find something to help aid us when I feel like a lot of your films are sort of cautioning us against so many of these things. It's a fascinating contrast.

[Adam Naiman]

Of course, conflict is the essence of drama, said George Bernard Shaw. So you don't want a movie where everybody's happy about tech and just happy about with each other and happy about the world. That's a boring movie. So there has to be some conflict, there have to be some difficulties. And of course there can be. I mean, obviously, you know, your hearing aids can be hacked. That's an interesting thing. How. What's. What's going to happen with that. So that. And also have to remember it's playful. I mean, for however serious movies are in its. In terms of money and time and time pressures and stardom and casting and producing and releasing the films and publicity beneath it all, we are children playing. You know, we're putting on funny mustache, we're in a sandbox. You know, we're putting on mustaches. We're pretending that we're people, that we aren't doing funny voices. And the playfulness is important. You know, it's really the essence of that kind of creativity.

[Sean Fennessey]

You mentioned Vincent Cassel, the star of the movie, who you'd worked with before. In my mind's eye, I don't think I would have thought of him for a movie about this kind of vulnerability in the face of grief. That's not really his on screen Persona historically. So what made you think of him for this?

[Adam Naiman]

It's hard. I thought of other actors, of course, and eventually talking to my French co producer. And of course, I had worked with Vincent twice before. I just thought it would be interesting. I really like leading actors who are really more like character actors. They're not sort of smoothly perfectly beautiful. Vincent has lots of rough edges and he normally plays criminal types and he speaks very quickly and curtly. A very street type character. And this was really a big challenge for him. Interesting for me and interesting for him. I mean, this is the most dialogue he told me that he's ever spoken in one movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wow.

[Adam Naiman]

Yeah, that's fascinating. And of course it's in English, which is not his first language, so it was interesting. And then the fact that he's French and I knew he would still have a bit of an accent, it's very much Toronto. You know, there was, I think a French critic was saying, you say this is a Toronto movie, but you Have a French actor, a German actress, an Australian actor. And I said, but that is Toronto. I mean, it's a very diverse city. And you hear all those voices and all those accents, and so that really fits.

[Sean Fennessey]

One other thing that struck a chord with me in the film is this strain of conspiracy theorizing in the face of trauma and grief and sadness that often you sort of, like, go searching for answers where there are none. And I find most people who have maybe not experienced a loss, maybe don't necessarily are not on the wavelength of this concept. But if you have, I found it to be really, really resonant. Maybe you could just talk a bit about why.

[Adam Naiman]

I'm glad, because some critics have sort of felt that the movie gets derailed because it goes off into the conspiracy world. And I'm thinking, well, you know, in fact, in my experience, at the age of 82, a lot of people have died. And I find that the death of a loved one is meaningless. If you're an atheist like me, an existentialist, you have to accept the absurdity of human existence, and you have to accept that death is in some way meaningless. But we, once again, in terms of evolution, I'm definitely a Darwinian. We have evolved to look for meaning everywhere, and it's made us a very powerful and dangerous species. So somebody dies and you say to each other, this is impossible. This person cannot be dead. This person cannot be gone. How is that possible? And then you start to think, well, maybe it's not so random. Maybe the doctors weren't taking enough care, or maybe she was with the wrong doctors and maybe the doctors had an agenda. Maybe he or she should have been in another clinic. And maybe. And there's a guilt thing as well. It's sort of survivor guilt. Like maybe if I had paid more attention and we found some better place for this treatment to happen, you know, so it can very easily spin into quite elaborate conspiracy coming out of, as I say, guilt and confusion and the search for meaning.

[Sean Fennessey]

Another strand that I like that is related to that, especially in the third act of the film, is the way that that conspiracy and desire to kind of better understand the inexplicable is really interwoven with desire and sex. And, you know, I'm interested to hear you talk about that too, because the film is extremely frank, as frank as any of your other films about, basically when we lose something, what we lose, but then also how we sort of replace that feeling.

[Adam Naiman]

Yes, yes. Well, there's a. You know, in this case, Karsh has a Very sexual affair with the sister of his dead wife. And you feel there that it is an attempt by both of them to kind of resurrect the sister in sort of the affair together. That it is another version of trying to deal with grief and to try to minimize the sense of desolation because of the laws.

[Sean Fennessey]

I know the film originally started out as a series and that ultimately didn't work out at Netflix. A series is very different from making a film.

[Adam Naiman]

I was quite intrigued by the. Of course, it's a combination of COVID and Netflix. Everybody suddenly staying home and watching streaming series. And I thought that this is. It's definitely cinema, it's movie making, but it's a very different kind of movie making is not exactly TV as we used to know it. And I thought it would be pretty interesting to do. I mean, and since then I talked to Steve Zalian, who did a series called Ripley, which I thought was really quite a beautiful series.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fantastic. Yeah.

[Adam Naiman]

And you know, he wrote and directed all the episodes. So that's like making a 10 hour movie. And also Alfonso Cuaron with disclaimer. I talked, I asked him if he would ever do that again. He said he wasn't sure because it's so all consuming. Maybe three or four years of your life doing that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was that your intention, though, with this original. Do you think he would have done that?

[Adam Naiman]

I wasn't sure whether I would end up doing what has been done several times to direct maybe the first two episodes and then just oversee as an executive producer the other episodes, or whether I thought I really could write and direct all the episodes. I was interested to see how it would work out. And I got to write two episodes before Netflix decided that they didn't want to continue. But at that point, and I had made many notes about where the series could go, but I liked what I had written enough that I didn't want to just abandon it just because Netflix didn't want to go ahead with it. And so I, I thought it could be a movie, it could definitely be a movie instead.

[Sean Fennessey]

On the trail for this film, you've been talking a little bit about how your relationship to celluloid has changed. Your relationship to the movie going experience has changed, which is amongst the young cinephiles very out of fashion. I think you're kind of rejecting a new young orthodoxy around movie fans.

[Adam Naiman]

Yes, there is that. But I mean, this is not totally new because of course, Spielberg was always insistent on trying to shoot everything on film. And you now find some young filmmakers like Brady Corbett I was talking about. He not only is doing film, but he's resurrected VistaVision and VistaVision lenses. Of course, this is a very old widescreen format. I find it kind of sweet. They have this nostalgia, you know, but film is horrible to work with. I mean, I would never go back to working with film. We have affection and nostalgia for the actual material of film because of the great movies that have been shot on film. But honestly, it's time to move on. I say to the young filmmakers, you know, it's so much more flexible. You have so much more control. And I was just talking to my. The director of photography shot my last two movies, Doug Ko, and he said that there was a demonstration recently for cinematographers and assistant cameramen and stuff, where they compared 35 millimeter Kodak film stock, which was one of the classics, and the latest version of digital, and they were identical. He said they could not. There was all kinds of lighting situations, nighttime, daytime interiors, exteriors. And you can absolutely. If you want the look of film, you can absolutely have it. If you want grain, you can have Kodak grain or Fujifilm grain or whatever you want. So there's really. Even aesthetically, there is no reason to shoot on film. It's so difficult now, and there's so few labs that really process film anymore. So it's an added expense. It's more expensive, more awkward, more clumsy. I couldn't wait to get rid of film, honestly.

[Sean Fennessey]

What about the idea of movie going. I know you've said that sometimes going to the movies is just not as fun as it used to be, because it's not as peaceful as maybe it used to be. Do you feel like there's something long term lost if people get out of that habit and get only into the habit of the Netflix approach?

[Adam Naiman]

Well, I remember being at the Venice Film Festival on a panel with Spike Lee, and he was talking about the cathedral and the way the community of the film thing is. And I said, you know, Spike, I'm watching Lawrence of Arabia on my Apple watch, and there are a thousand camels there, and I can see every one of them. You know, of course I was exaggerating, but what I was saying is that, yeah, there's some moments in my past where there was that communal feeling in a theater, comedy, action thing. But I think it's overblown. I think it's. Nostalgia has made it be more a complete experience than perhaps it normally was. And so I don't really. It's an experience that's different, but I don't think it's, it's. I don't think it's less a lesser experience to watch at home on your very good high quality TV set and you can invite your friends over. I mean, a lot of kids watch together, you know, so it's not like there's no communal experience of film. So I really, it's different. And I think there will be fewer and fewer cinemas and I think they'll be very, very specialized. And as it turns out they end up usually showing very, very sort of middle of the road Marvel movies and stuff like that, which is to me not very interesting as a filmmaker.

[Sean Fennessey]

Anyway, I wanted to ask you about your relationship with Howard Shore, who scored this new film and has scored almost all of your films.

[Adam Naiman]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

And you've been working together for almost 50 years.

[Adam Naiman]

That's frighteningly true.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just an amazing career long collaboration. And even in this film, the final kind of sonic musical cue just felt very classically Howard Shore, David Cronenberg. To me, that sort of synth wave that you hear at the end of the film. Can you just talk about how you work together maybe and kind of if it has changed over time?

[Adam Naiman]

Well, I was recently in London for about a week where a group called the London Soundtrack was doing an homage to Howard. And Howard was there and they were showing the films that he had scored. He and I have done 17 films together. We started out in Toronto together. He's a Toronto boy as well. And some moments they had the London Philharmonic actually there playing. This was music that he did for Lord of the Rings and won Oscars for. There were a chorus of 80 singers and the London Philharmonic doing music from Lord of the Rings and to a huge audience. And it was really quite thrilling and exciting and it was great. And Howard and I did Q&As and stuff. And I did talk about, we did talk about that early on in our career we thought about what does movie music do? Why is there music? Why couldn't there be no music? And we felt that traditionally the music just supports what's already there. It's an action scene, so you have action music. It's a scary scene, so you have scary music. And it's almost like the failure of trust by the director and the producers that the scene is really working. You have to accentuate it with music. So Howard and I thought music could do something else. It could add an element to the scene that was not just the same as what you're seeing visually. It could be almost like another character. It could add an emotional level that is not obvious. And I think you see that in the music that he did for the Shrouds, because Karsh is. He's suffering, but he's very sort of confident. He's very cool, he's very restrained. And he's talking about grief, but he's not really expressing it except for certain very specific scenes in the movie. But the music tells you that underneath that is absolute desolation at the loss of his. That there's grief, there's agony, and it's the music that carries that. And that's, as I said, just an example of what we always try to do, is that music as another character.

[Sean Fennessey]

In a way, it's really effective. And this movie in particular kind of constantly had me asking, is what I'm watching really happening? And in which way is it supposed to be happening? So you guys have done great work together. Should I ask you again if this will be your last film?

[Adam Naiman]

I hope it's not going to be my last film. I am talking to the producer, Robert Lantis, who we've worked together many times before about doing a movie based on one novel that I wrote called Consumed. And that's interesting because I wrote it 15 years ago, I guess, or maybe 10, 15 years ago. And for me to write a screenplay based on my own novel would be a novel experience, I must say, because I've adapted many other novels, like Cosmopolis, for example, but I have never done that to my own novel. So it'll be an adventure. The thing is, these days you don't know if you're going to be able to raise the money. That's really more a question from the producer. But if you're doing any film that is anywhere off the middle ground, you don't know if you're going to get financing. You don't know if it's going to be able to be shown at theaters or will it be totally streaming instead. It's strange, somewhat perilous, but also interesting times, as they say in the movie world right now.

[Sean Fennessey]

David, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing that they have seen? Have you seen anything good recently?

[Adam Naiman]

Well, I saw a movie by a Danish filmmaker, I think his name is Magnus von Horn, called the Girl with the Needle.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, beautiful.

[Adam Naiman]

Beautiful. Very tough, very difficult movie. And I thought it was really quite beautiful. Very special.

[Sean Fennessey]

The cinematography in that film is fantastic.

[Adam Naiman]

It's beautiful and horrifying at the same time.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a great recommendation.

[Adam Naiman]

I thought it was a great film.

[Sean Fennessey]

David Cronenberg thank you for the films. Thank you for the time.

[Adam Naiman]

Thank you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you to David Cronenberg. Thanks to Adam Naman. Thanks to Amanda, of course, thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Amanda teased it. We'll be back next week to break down a quartet, maybe a quintet of action films. We'll have the Accountant two, a Working man, the Amateur, the Gareth Evans Netflix film Havoc, which is now out this weekend. And maybe G20 if you get around.

[Amanda Davis]

To it, maybe I'll fire it up. I'll at least, you know, take a gander.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay. Well, we'll see you then.