The Top 10 Movie Plot Twists and ‘The Drama.’ Plus: ‘The Super Mario Galaxy Movie’ Certainly Exists.

Summary

The Big Picture - The Top 10 Movie Plot Twists and ‘The Drama.’ Plus: ‘The Super Mario Galaxy Movie’ Certainly Exists.
Host: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins
Episode Date: April 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins deliver their witty and incisive takes on two wildly different new film releases: Christopher Borgli’s sharp-edged wedding drama The Drama and the family-friendly juggernaut Super Mario Galaxy Movie. The hosts also launch into a lively, exhaustive rundown of cinema’s most memorable plot twists, blending personal anecdotes with deep film knowledge and their signature banter. This episode is packed with analysis on modern children’s animation, the evolving role of plot twists in film, and candid reflections on parenting, cultural shifts, and the state of moviegoing in 2026.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Movie News Roundup (02:06–14:03)

• Industry Updates & Upcoming Releases
  • Weapons will get a prequel, Gladys, written by Zach Cregger and Zach Shields, potentially exploring the character’s origins through different historical periods (Salem Witch Trials, The Plague, etc.). Amanda’s lukewarm but open to Phoebe Dynevor in a 1940s setting and humorously speculates about Gladys’s anti-aging rituals.

    “What if it goes back to Salem, Massachusetts, and Gladys is actually hundreds of years old?” – Sean (03:35)

  • The eagerly anticipated Adventures of Cliff Booth (David Fincher/Nick Tarantino) is now slated for a fall festival release, likely to appear at Venice. Speculation about theatrical strategy and distribution by Netflix.
  • Discussion of the Backrooms trailer—a horror film by 20-year-old Kane Parsons starring Chiwetel Ejiofor and Renata Reinzva. Sean expresses both admiration and comic existential dread at being “43 years old and see[ing] that a 20-year-old man has just created something.” (08:46)
  • First look at Bong Joon Ho’s next film, Ally, an animated feature featuring cute squidlike creatures (2027).
  • Anticipation for the Cannes lineup, with fewer American entries expected, but excitement for possible appearances from international auteurs like Farhadi, Hamaguchi, and Refn.

II. Review: The Super Mario Galaxy Movie (15:00–34:03)

General Reception

• Sean and Amanda each took their kids to see the film and discuss the shared parental experience, but both found the film aesthetically “bankrupt” and narratively shallow.
• Amanda:

  “I found this creatively and aesthetically bankrupt in a way that I was kind of bummed to be sitting next to my kid and exposing my kid to it… He just had that sort of sedated slop face that was going on throughout the movie.” (16:54)

• Sean:

  “It is narratively brutal. There are no characters. There’s no defining traits… very flashy, fast-moving 3D animation style… noisy.” (18:38)

Animation, Pacing & Cultural Shifts

• The film is discussed in the broader context of the animation industry’s shift from literary source material (Disney classics) to video game IP, resulting in increased “action” and frenetic pacing.
• Amanda draws parallels between this film and the worst excesses of the Fast & Furious franchise and Michael Bay’s bombastic style.
• Sean:

  “We’re training 5-year-olds or 9-year-olds to expect action in a discreet and consistent way… It does feel like a culmination of 15 or 20 years of animated movies.” (21:24)

• Both lament the lack of depth and emotional resonance compared to previous eras and cite concerns about how this may shape a generation’s expectations.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Amanda:

  “I asked my son afterwards what Super Mario Brothers Galaxy was about and he said, ‘A ship that shoots lasers.’” (24:02)

• Sean:

  “This I agree with. You felt something more insidious here.” (23:48)

III. Review: The Drama (34:03–69:02)

Spoiler Warning

Amanda lays down an emphatic spoiler warning before discussing the major plot point:

“Do not listen to this until you have seen The Drama. I’m serious… I want you to experience the movie without spoilers. Turn it off… and come back when you’ve seen the movie. Thank you.” (34:10)

Synopsis & Thematic Depth

• Christopher Borgli’s marriage/wedding drama starring Zendaya and Robert Pattinson, with a “plot twist” serving more as a revelatory pivot for the story than a final shocker.
• The twist is revealed about 30 minutes in: Zendaya’s character, Emma, confesses during a wine-tasting “game” that as a teenager she planned and fantasized about a school shooting, although never committed one. This dramatically alters her fiancé Charlie’s (Pattinson) perception and upends their impending nuptials.

Analysis & Reaction

• Both hosts praise the film’s insight into social and emotional performance, especially the anxiety and psychological toll of “not really knowing” the person you’re about to marry.
• Amanda:

  “It is… a movie about Charlie, the Robert Pattinson character… Weird bungling Pattinson, who’s still kind of hot, is amazing.” (40:36)

• Sean reflects on how the film’s Scandinavian perspective brings a unique tone to an American subject; both admire Borgli’s precise satire of educated, urban millennial life.
• The film smartly avoids heavy-handed melodrama or forced explanations surrounding Emma’s confession, instead focusing on moral ambiguity and the discomfort of not knowing how to feel or act.

Wedding Satire & Performative Culture

• The film skewers modern wedding culture: pretentious tastings, rehearsed dances, the commodification of love ceremonies, with sharp attention to material detail (“Sofia Coppola level” per Amanda).
• Notable sequences called out:
  • The drunken “worst thing you’ve ever done” game
  • The nightmare Maid of Honor speech
  • The wedding DJ subplot with a heroin-using vendor

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “She reveals that she imagined, dreamed and planned a school shooting… And the tenor of the drinks dramatically changes when this happens…” (45:21 – Sean)
• “I agree that the ethics or the morality of the topics involved are not super explored. Neither really are the characters. Like, these are all, if not archetypes, then Chess Pieces is unfair… But I think everybody is moving around these issues in sort of like a flat, you know, tense way.” (55:04 – Amanda)
• “Most people going through life are kind of performing—that the real self, and this is Borgli’s point of view, I suspect, that you’re doing things that you think are expected of you…” (55:53 – Sean)
• “In other ways, I do actually think it is a romantic comedy. It’s just a completely upside down one.” (68:36 – Amanda)

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IV. The Top Movie Plot Twists (69:12–approx. 81:20)

Plot Twist as Storytelling Device

• Amanda and Sean swap personal favorites and dissect what makes a great twist—timing, emotional impact, whether or not a story can hold up to repeat viewings.
• Notably, the The Drama twist is set apart by happening in the first act; others discussed mostly save their reveal for the climax.

Greatest Plot Twists (with Timestamps)

• The Sixth Sense (69:53)

  “I’ll always remember being 12—no, 15, and seeing Sixth Sense… didn’t know what was gonna happen.” (70:03 – Amanda)

• The Usual Suspects (70:23), Psycho (Northern's mother reveal).
• Planet of the Apes, Soylent Green, Oldboy, Arrival, The Prestige, The Others, Primal Fear, Fight Club, Gone Girl, Seven.
• Comedy/romance: Crazy Stupid Love’s “barbecue” twist, Casablanca’s “secret spouse” reveal.
• International standouts: Parasite’s third family in the basement (77:07), Barbarian, Malignant.
• Empire Strikes Back’s iconic “I am your father” scene, which leads into a personal/parenting anecdote.

Notable Quotes

“That was brutal for me, unfortunately.” (70:03 – Sean, on getting spoiled for Sixth Sense) “Parasite… That amazing shot of the husband coming up the stairs.” (77:16 – Amanda)

V. Parenting & Spoilers Anecdotes (77:51–83:04)

• Amanda’s son learns Darth Vader’s parentage via dad rather than Empire Strikes Back:

  “He maintains that he did the right thing. …his father ruined his life… Now he can’t ever have that. It’s a real shame.” (80:54 – Sean/Amanda)

• Reflections on generational spoiler culture and movie magic.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On contemporary animation:

  “It did feel very Michael Bay… just a lot going on fast and loud.” (28:05 – Sean)

• On plot twists and marriage:

  “It’s about the terror of getting married in many ways… it is the most provocative situation.” (54:20 – Amanda)

• On The Drama's handling of moral gray areas:

  “It’s impossible to be definitive.” (55:03 – Sean) “You know, how much people are willing to perform is sort of an inverse ratio into how much Borgli values them or likes them in the film, which I relate to.” (57:41 – Amanda)

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Important Segment Timestamps (Selected)

• [02:06] Movie news: Weapons prequel, Fincher’s new film, Backrooms trailer
• [15:00] Super Mario Galaxy Movie review begins
• [34:03] “The Drama” review begins (spoiler warning at 34:10)
• [45:21] The big plot twist in "The Drama" is revealed/discussed
• [69:12] General discussion on movie plot twists (Sixth Sense, Usual Suspects, etc.)
• [77:51] Parenting/Star Wars spoiler anecdote

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Tone & Style

• Warmly combative, intellectually playful, and digressive in signature Big Picture style.
• Blends cultural critique, parenting war stories, and film history.
• Language is informal, witty, and at times self-deprecating (e.g. “sedated slop face,” “evil movie designation,” “just Smart finds.”)
• Jane Austen and Scandi noir vibes meet millennial parental concern.

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Conclusion

This episode entwines media industry analysis with lived experience and irreverent humor. Sean and Amanda go deep on the empty spectacle of Super Mario Galaxy Movie, the anxious social mirror of The Drama, and the enduring power of a great plot twist—right through to the heartbreak of classic movie spoilers at home.

If you missed the episode, you’ll come away with a sharp sense of the movies’ substance (or lack thereof), robust debate about the future of pop culture storytelling, and a healthy dose of empathy for parents trying to keep movie magic alive in a spoiler-saturated world.

Transcript

[A]

I'm Sean Fennesee.

[B]

I'm Amanda Davin.

[A]

And this is the Big Picture, a conversation show about drama, mind games, Mario and Yahoo. On today's show, we will dive into two new releases that could not be farther apart in terms of target audience, craft and cultural appeal. The first movie I'm talking about is Christopher Borgli's new Doom, the drama, which stars Zendaya and Robert Pattinson as an engaged couple whose relationship takes a twist in the lead up to their wedding. The second movie is the Super Mario Galaxy movie, which is the sequel to 2023 smash hit Super Mario Brothers movie. One of these movies is for kids. One of them is for arrested development millennials. One hinges on a twist, the other is without a brain. We're also going to talk about our favorite movie plot twist ever, which is related to one of these two movies. I won't say which, but first, we have some movie news to get into right after this. This episode is brought to you by the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. The Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book your favorite hotel site your go to airline and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway, from booking your stay to that first meal, when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. From opening credits to the final scene, TaxAct guides you through your taxes step by step with your maximum refund guaranteed. Get tips along the way. Add expert assist to talk to tax experts or let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details.

[A]

I'm back from spring break.

[B]

Welcome.

[A]

Thanks. There's been some news.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's gonna be a weapons prequel.

[B]

Yeah. How logged onto the news were you while on spring break?

[A]

Not at all. Really? Not at all. The movie news?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I mean, I was closely tracking the price of gas in this country, which seems to be a serious issue.

[B]

Yeah. You're just logging onto that?

[A]

Well, I don't. I drive an ev, so I don't really follow that. So, you know.

[B]

Yeah. Welcome.

[A]

It seems to be a real issue.

[B]

Yeah. The coastal elites with the EV is just. Yeah, It's a nightmare.

[A]

EVs are spread across this fine country and frankly, they're going to spread even more based on what's happening here in America. Okay. No weapons. There's gonna be a prequel, Gladys, which I think we understood was gonna happen after the breakout success of that movie. It's gonna be written by Zach Kreger, who of course wrote and directed the original, and Zack Shields. I say Gladys, you say, what?

[B]

Is Amy Madigan involved? Or is the younger Gladys maybe in

[A]

like a bookended way?

[B]

Right.

[A]

We see her, like, at the beginning of the movie to situate the audience, and then we see her at the end getting her flesh torn off of her body.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But then in the middle, it is who. Phoebe Dynevor is set in the 1940s,

[B]

I believe in Zach Kreger and his imagination and his relationship to the character Gladys. And showing messed up, funny things on screen. I'm very pro. Phoebe Divener, or diviner in the 1940s. It doesn't on its face, jump out to me as like, the most exciting, I think.

[A]

What if it goes back to the Salem, Massachusetts, and the witch trials and Gladys is actually hundreds of years old? Okay, that could be an option.

[B]

It could.

[A]

And then we could.

[B]

I mean, anything could happen.

[A]

Misandry and misogyny across centuries of American existence. Would you be signing up for that?

[B]

So it's starting in the Salem witch trials, and then we're jumping through various. Yeah, she's gender crisis.

[A]

Yeah. The same way that Vlad the Impaler, Dracula has lived for centuries.

[B]

So is. How does Gladys age is a. Is a question I would pose to you in that context. Is it the same?

[A]

Well, how does she not age is really the question.

[B]

Right. But she is aged in weapons. She is older. I mean, and if she sprung to life like that, then why can't Amy Madigan be at the Salem witch trials and then. Or are you having a young Gladys who then ages progressively but more slowly over time?

[A]

I think Gladys is in a race against aging. Okay, so she does age. Well, I don't care, but some of us do. And I think that what her character is doing is that as each day goes by, she's trying to fight back the dawn. You know, she's trying to get a little bit of youth injected back into her system.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There is a kind of like ultimate crone that is unstoppable. Like, she will eventually become 100 years old, but she can Revert back to a younger form. The more souls that she's influenced, the

[B]

more young souls ensnare. So she's gotta find various groups of children in peril over the time. So I guess Salem Witch Trials is available, but you can really.

[A]

The Crusades?

[B]

I was gonna say the plague.

[A]

The plague, sure. That's a good one.

[B]

Let's see, what else? I mean, you know, bad things have happened to children and adults throughout history in all forms.

[A]

We're on the brink of Easter and Christ has risen. Like, maybe she was there with Pontius Pilate.

[B]

Can I share a take with you unrelated to the films, since you brought it up.

[A]

I can't believe you even asked if you could.

[B]

Easter, eh? I'm out. I'm like, I just, you know, everyone's real excited and we'll come to the Easter egg hunt or whatever, but I guess it was just that Easter wasn't really big in my childhood.

[A]

I don't really know what you're saying. You mean like in the practice of Christianity?

[B]

Well, I don't really practice Christianity and I don't super believe in any organized religions, but. So that doesn't matter to me. But then the whole fanfare around Easter, you know, we've tried to Christmasize it. Everybody's like, here's a peep. Here's an egg hunt. Here's like some, you know, bunnies. Here's like, lots. I don't really. I don't think we've done a good job. I'm out. I just. I'm not into Easter. No, thanks.

[A]

Thanks for letting me know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Other things that are happening in the news. Cliff Booth not coming out this summer. The Adventures of Cliff Booth, the forthcoming feature from David Fincher and Nick Tarantino. Looking at a fall release. Maybe theorize the theatrical release. If you just put a number on. How many movie theaters will the Adventures of Cliff Booth open in America?

[B]

How many IMAX screens is Greta getting for the Magician's Nephew, which you.

[A]

I don't know what the number is. Bought a copy of I did over the weekend.

[B]

Yeah. Ye.

[A]

Alice and I are going to read it together. I think there are 400 IMAX screens in America. Maybe less. I could be completely wrong about that.

[B]

And she's getting all.

[A]

But she's getting all of them all the full run.

[B]

So when they want to, they can do a broader. But this isn't going to be IMAX. Let's see. 800. Is that high? Is that low?

[A]

So that's around the number. I've heard that movies like Frankenstein and the Knives out films have gotten sub 1000, but still a very hearty amount. I think they gotta go over 1000 for a movie like this. Okay, why are you even making a movie like this? It's a Brad Pitt movie, according to Matt Bell, and he was paid $40 million to star in this movie. Why are you even doing. For a streaming movie? That makes no sense anyway. Maybe at the Venice Film Festival, we don't know. But Netflix does put a lot of movies there.

[B]

Netflix does put a lot of movies there, including David Fincher's last film, the Killer. And David Fincher was not only there for that premiere, but then he was just walking around in like a cream suit at other premieres, just taking. I didn't. I was seated pretty close to him and I was just like, oh, cool. That's David Fincher.

[A]

You guys would have a lot in common.

[B]

I really appreciate everything I know about him. His filmmaking style, his view of the world, and his aesthetic choices, which include driving around an old Mercedes convertible, which I've seen him spotted from time to time around la.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you do like a double take and you're like, holy shit, that's David Fincher. Good for him.

[A]

You should say hi to him if in fact, you go to us.

[B]

I don't really think that David Fincher wants people saying hi to him, which is one of the things I respect about.

[A]

Okay, fair enough. Did you watch the trailer for Backrooms?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, well, it's too late now. Backrooms is a new horror movie from May 24, coming out at the end of May. It is directed by Kane Parsons. Kane Parsons is. How many years old do you think?

[B]

20.

[A]

He's 20.

[B]

Yeah, I saw this. I saw it alluded to. I didn't click through.

[A]

He's 20 years old. This film stars Chiwetel Ejufour and Renata Reinzva. It is about seemingly a furniture store that beyond its walls, features an infinite number of rooms. Is a very trippy, very Kubrickian, very cube like mind fuck of a movie. Very good trailer. Genuinely depressing. To be 43 years old and see that a 20 year old man has just created something. So how can I perk you back up?

[B]

We were talking about this before the recording started. I just. I want you to feel happy. I want you to be restored. You were on spring break and I feel like you came back with a negative outlook.

[A]

I can only respond to what's put in front of me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so maybe that's the problem. What has been presented to Me is my own mortality. Okay. No, I'm excited about this movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm impressed that a young person has been given this opportunity. I hope this movie's great. I have a lot of plans for horror movie coverage over the next three months because we're at the dawning of a new era.

[B]

That's great. I'm excited for Chiwetel Ejiofor, who is one and I always think underused.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

When I rewatched the Martian, I was like, oh, yeah, he's so great in this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he was. What is his character's name in the Doctor Strange movies?

[B]

It's like you're asking the wrong question on that one.

[A]

Come on, Jack, you've rewatched it. Nope. No clue. Mordock. Mordau Murdaw. Mordo. Mordo. Mordo. Mordo.

[B]

Also, just want to let you guys know that Chiwetel Ejiofor is in the 2010 classic Salt. Anyone? Jack, you seen Salt yet?

[A]

We've talked about this. I have not. And we need to get a. This should be like what we did with Avatar. Way of water. Watch a long pod for Salt.

[B]

It's pretty good.

[A]

I honestly have no desire to revisit it.

[B]

I had a great time, and once again, I'm open to salt 2, which they clearly set up and then abandoned.

[A]

I don't think it's gonna happen.

[B]

I'm sorry to break your heart.

[A]

Bong Joon Ho's next movie. Ally, we've just seen a first look. It's an animated feature film. There' cute little squid like Piglet character.

[B]

Okay. He's good at Creatures.

[A]

Very Good at Creatures 2027 animated film. Your son says what?

[B]

See you there. So it was very cute when we went to see Super Mario Brothers Galaxy. Normal film title, which we'll talk about later. When we got there, I realized he thought he was seeing Project Hail Mary based on remembering the, like, the interactive. The big poster featuring Ryan Gosling for Project Hail Mary. And he was like, no, I saw the poster when we went to Hoppers and he's going to space and he needs a helmet. And I just thought he was describing Galaxy and Super Mario Brothers. But Ryan Gosling is not wearing a helmet in the Project Hail Mary poster. And so Knox was just worried about safety.

[A]

So he's engaged the marketing of Project Hail Mary, which of course has been working stunningly well, is very appealing to young kids, which is interesting. Like that standee that you're referring to.

[B]

Yeah, we get to see Rocky. Like, he would love Rocky Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I think it would be a little hard to grasp most of the concepts of Project Hail Mary, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't watch it if you're a little kid. We didn't take Alice to see.

[B]

I mean, he's still too little and there's too many dead people. And it's also two and a half

[A]

hours long, but, yeah, not ideal. Ally Pumped. Yeah, pumped for another bong movie. Next week at this time, one week from now, we will know the lineup of the Cannes Film Festival.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And, you know, it appears that the lineup will be relatively light on American filmmakers, which is not shocking per se. But there have been more and more in the last five or six years, and this year it seems like maybe James Gray is going to be there, maybe Jane Schoenbrunn is going to be there, maybe the Zellner brothers, and that might be it. Speculation that the Joel Cohen movie isn't going to be ready. We know that stuff like Disclosure Day and Cliff Booth and all those movies are not going to be going. There will be a great number of international heavyweights, probably among them, Asghar Farhadi, Christian Manju Hamaguchi's new movie was announced. There was a teaser for that this week. All of a sudden I'm pumped about that. Almodovar Pavlikowski, whole bunch of Corieda. So I'm Nick Wything Refn. Yeah, I'm excited about Refen. And now if Refn is there, I will track him down. I will track him down and I'll give him a big hug and try to make him uncomfortable. Any. Any pre game thoughts? We will break it down next week on the show when it's announced.

[B]

I feel like this, this base of predicting what will be at the can lineup is pretty crowded already. So I. I don't really need to insert my opinions. I'm just listening to the experts because we're new. Um, I'm still excited. I'm excited to see what it's about. And you know, obviously Anora came out of Cannes and some American films do get a boost, but Cannes is also typically the place where we, you know, lowly Americans learn about the great international films of the year. So it's fine with me.

[A]

Me too. I'm curious what the noisy American. Maybe Mandalorian Grogu. I'm not sure what the big messy, I guess John Travolta's directorial debut was just announced as playing at the film festival.

[B]

How beautiful.

[A]

Have you been reading about that? Following along Were, were you on set for that?

[B]

I was. Okay.

[A]

It's exciting. I'm pumped. I'm pumped. I'm pumped to find out what they're going to play. I hope there's a couple of surprises.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is a very active industry of can predictors in the trades and there's plenty you can read about them right now. Shall we talk about Super Mario? Is there anything else that you want to get into? Any other holidays you would like to blaspheme?

[B]

Just Easter, you know, like I'm happy it's spring, but also spring.

[A]

But he has risen.

[B]

I really don't care. Okay. Like that's cool. But you know, it's just amazing.

[A]

Is it his teachings that bother me

[B]

is it's a metaphor for, you know, the turn of the seasons and every religion has them and that's nice.

[A]

I think letting a little God into your life would be powerful.

[B]

I had plenty of God in my life growing up and look where it got me.

[A]

You had going to things that were organized around your parents religion. But what about letting God into your life? Have you considered that?

[B]

No, I'm good. I'm in charge.

[A]

What about Super Mario Galaxy movie? Have you let that into your life?

[B]

I would like to nominate this movie for the big pictures coveted evil movie designation. Which is rarefied air. Right. It's Free Guy, Fast X Mercy. Anything else I'm forgetting?

[A]

Wow. We've already had one this year that we can add to the list.

[B]

Yeah, evil movies. I took my 4 year old to see this at 9:30 in the morning on opening day for spring break. And we had the time of our lives in that we got to. He was so excited to get to go to the movies. He's really into trailers. I think he's a great movie watcher. It was his first credit sequence which we almost missed because once again his mother refuses to acknowledge the existence of credit sequences. No, no, no, no, no. Like the. Oh, I'm sorry, the post credits. And so I was glad to have that opportunity. And I don't begrudge anyone who is looking forward to who takes their child to see this movie. You should. I did too. But I found this experience, I found this creatively and aesthetically bankrupt in a way that I was kind of bummed to be sitting next to my kid and exposing my kid to it. And I could also watch him kind of power down. He just had that sort of sedated slop face that was going on throughout the movie. And that's. Listen, there are plenty of different ways and plenty of kids entertainment to do it. And I also put screens in front of my child to, you know, kill time so I can do the dishes or whatever. But it bummed me out. It bummed me out a little bit more than the first one because it did feel even more. Let's just, you know, combine as many different Super Mario things as we can into it. And, you know, it felt a little more commercial grabby.

[A]

And

[B]

I just. I know that it's a technical achievement or whatever, but I found it so depressing to look at.

[A]

I'm pretty much with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Eileen joined me seeing the movie with Alice yesterday. And as soon as it was over, first of all, Alice had the time of her life.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

She was delighted. She loved Rosalina, the new princess, as voiced by Brie Larson. It was very Elsa crazy.

[B]

I mean, they are even wearing the same.

[A]

She may predate Elsa in the Mario lore.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't really know, to be honest.

[B]

That can be settled between Nintendo's and Disney's lawyers.

[A]

She had a great time. She really enjoyed learning that. Spoiler alert. Rosalina and Princess Peach are in fact related. They're sisters. Nothing my daughter loves more than princesses who are sisters. Also very frozen. But I turned to Eileen afterwards and I said, I thought that was quite dire. And she said, that's one of the worst movies I've ever seen in my life. And that's fascinating because this movie is clearly going to be a mega smash and make a shit ton of money and even dramatically outperform things like Free Guy and Fast X at the box office. I actually have a lot of thoughts. These movies tend to bring out a lot of ideas from me about kind of where movies are and what people want from movies. I think what you're saying is right, which is that this feels like a big agglomeration of a lot of Mario fan service and keys jingling. And remember this character from this game and remember when you heard this sound effect and it made you feel like this. And I think if you're anywhere from the ages of like 4 to 11, it's fun. It's a lot of fun. And if you're like 20 and you have a lot of nostalgia or 30 and have a lot of nostalgia for Mario, you will get something satisfying out of this. But it is narratively brutal. There are no characters. There's no defining traits of any of the characters. I thought it is like this very flashy, fast moving 3D animation style that is increasingly prevalent. Yeah, I don't know, if I thought it was ugly so much as I thought it was noisy, I would agree.

[B]

Like I said, I understand that it is technically accomplished. And it doesn't look bad or ugly the way that the third acts of many Marvel movies look bad, where it's just like we ran out of time and we just didn't have the resources required to achieve what was in our heads. I think it was noisy, frenetic. You know, as we mentioned, there are so many references and like, they're not even jokes. They're just like sound cues that are supposed to take you back jammed into this movie. But the pace was really, really shocking in so fast. So fast. And the cuts are so fast. And they move from one like, quote unquote problem even faster than you can move through worlds in a Super Mario game.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it really did feel like it was edited in that really nefarious cocomelon. Things that just move so fast on the screen that your child's brain turns off.

[A]

I totally agree with you. The thing that this had me thinking about is as the primacy of intellectual property shifts from things like superheroes to video games and those movies are increasingly engineered for children, you have this pretty dramatic shift in what animated movies are. When we were growing up, they were kind of in the third phase of Disney adapting great works of literature, fairy tales, stories from around the world and recontextualizing them, sometimes whitewashing them, sometimes stripping them of some of their sharper edges and reducing the stories down to very simple ideas. But they were at least based in a certain kind of a work that had some archetypal and cultural value. The last 25 years, things have changed a little bit. The introduction of Pixar, the introduction of 3D animation has changed, I think the tone of a lot of these movies, that they have gotten a lot more smart alecky, They've gotten a lot more adult sensibility forward. But the stories themselves, there's always been a kind of gentle quality, I would say, to the bulk of children's animated movies.

[B]

Sure, you're learning about yourself.

[A]

Yes. They're like emotional, they're internal. They're often very moral. They have an idea about family or an idea about the self or an idea about how you participate in a society. The movies are not perfect. I'm not trying to valorize them at the expense of this other stuff, because there's always been junk and crap for kids. But what making movies around video games does is it makes these movies action movies, because video games are action. They are Driven by avoiding obstacles, defeating villains, eluding capture. And so that pace that you're talking about is right on. And part of the reason that it's right on is because it's mimicking what it's like to play a video game where you're in a constant state of movement going from one thing to the next. So now what we're doing is we're training. And I don't think I'm over intellectualizing this. We're training 5 year olds or 9 year olds to expect action in a discreet and consistent way in these kinds of movies. This isn't the first movie that ever did this. It has been happening slowly. How to Train youn Dragon is like this. That they introduced fantasy movies in animated form. Kung Fu Panda introduced martial arts movies in animated form. The bad guys, those are heist movies. The Lego Batman movie is a superhero movie. So it's not like Super Mario bears the weight of this responsibility. But it does feel like a culmination of 15 or 20 years of animated movies. Used to be the sanctity of a princess or a prince or someone who's attempting to has a great journey of self discovery. And now this is a movie about like five different characters in five different places at the same time. And they all are having a crazy adventure and then they're all gonna converge on each other and there's gonna be a big fight. And that's what superhero movies are too. You know, that's kind of what most action. That's what the Fast franchise does. They split the big groups up and they bring everybody together. And so it feels like very formulaic. And it also is like training us to enjoy a certain kind of a story structure at a very young age. I'm making this anthropological because I'm very interested in animation and what it does for kids and how they understand stories. But I do think that this is like kind of the bottom of the barrel version of this kind of thing. Like the bad guys, those movies are fine. They're not that bad. They have real characters, they have fun performances. The scripts are not that bad. They're iterative, but they're a good way to kill time. This I agree with. You felt something more insidious here.

[B]

I mean, I think you're right. And Fast X is probably the fast movies or Fast X's most apt comparison because that is also the bottom of the barrel of that execution of that idea. But it is that the only point of this movie is to watch things go really fast and then explode. And whether it explodes via some purple goo or whether there's like another spaceship. The really intense movement and the more, more, more in the palette is the point. I asked my son afterwards what Super Mario Brothers Galaxy was about and he said a ship that shoots lasers, which I think is a little bit the only thing that he could really like, glom onto in his mind because he recognized a ship that shoots lasers. He did also understand that Princess Peach had a sister, Rosalina. So he understood siblings and ships that shoot lasers. But he's not wrong. That's what it was about. There were many different ships that shot lasers. I kind of got bored watching. I was like, well, which ship is this and what are you doing now? Because there's not enough to grab onto. And I did. I was sitting there next to my kid and I was like, I'm being a little bit of a Goldilocks because we came out of Hoppers and we've been talking about like the later stage Pixar movies in particular and saying these are starting to feel like more like for adults than for children or, you know, all children's entertainment has now has to have this second layer of like, winking reference for the adults to keep them entertained. But you're starting to see the strings on that. And now I'm saying that this just has absolutely. This children's entertainment has nothing for me to grab onto. And so what will make me happy, I guess what would make me happy is a good movie that my children and I could relate to that doesn't feel completely bankrupt of all ideas and human emotion. But that's just me.

[A]

I don't think it's an unreasonable request. I think it's. The movie exists for obvious reasons. It actually is shocking how long it took Nintendo to adapt an animated Super Mario Bros. Movie for wide audiences. And the first movie being a big success was not shocking. There wasn't a whole lot to say about that movie because they were introducing the key characters. You had a handful of very famous people supplying the voices. This is a sequel. As with all sequels, there needs to be more, more, more. Right? There needs to be an expansion of the universe, more characters.

[B]

I remember laughing more at the first.

[A]

It seemed like a more modest film maybe too. And so in that way, it just was trying to spin fewer plates. It felt very tightly focused on. There's Mario and Luigi and then there's Princess Peach. She is the princess of this land that she doesn't even totally understand. She doesn't know where her family is, but they need to basically protect her from Bowser, who wants to marry her and kidnap her. That was the whole movie. And that's basically how we understand the Super Mario Bros. Video game franchise that doesn't encompass Mario Tennis and Super Mario Kart and all the Donkey Kong storylines and Mario Paint and Dr. Mario and the myriad Mario games that have come out since I was playing video games in the 80s and 90s. So this movie is trying to have a lot of those things. It's trying to squeeze in a lot of those things. One, my dumb brain, my lizard brain, as it were, enjoyed Yoshi. Enjoyed seeing Yoshi in the movie. Alice got a huge kick out of Yoshi just doing the egg thing, you know, eating somebody, dropping an egg. That person that Yoshi ate was inside the egg. It's a good visual guy. Yeah. But you do that for like 90 minutes.

[B]

It also happened so quickly because this, I mean, this entire movie is on like 3x fast forward. And I didn't. It rushed the joke. Like the joke was almost stepped on.

[A]

So there's no room to breathe. There's not a lot of room to laugh. It did feel very. Felt very Michael Bay.

[B]

You put that in the spreadsheet and you know, it's. You see Michael Bay everywhere. But I think that this is. I think this is correct.

[A]

Well, I think Michael Bay is usually doing things visually that seem impossible with humans on set and sometimes they're dangerous. This is animation. So it's just not impressive. It's just sort of like. It's just a lot going on fast and loud.

[B]

The moreness and the just like, how much can we do? And also perhaps a disregard for emotion or moral concerns of any kind does track with Michael Bay. I definitely see it. I think that Michael Bay makes more, if not beautiful, memorable images.

[A]

I agree. What's your take on Bowser Jr. You

[B]

know, happy for Benny to get that check.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So did Bowser Sr. Or Bowser Jr. Put on the puppet show?

[A]

I believe it was Bowser senior before

[B]

Bowser Jr. Who was a wonderful audience member. I thought that was a love lovely puppet show. And there is another moment and it's a completely different animation style. Right. And then there's another moment when Star Fox, who I didn't know about, but Zack was like very solemnly, yes, Star Fox, he's very important. Voiced by Glen Powell, who I thought did a great job, you know, being Star Fox. Han Solo. Yeah. But his introduction is done in like an illustrated, you know, hand drawn animation style. Yeah. Old school style, which I thought was very compelling. But you Know, both of those instances took me out of the movie because I was like, oh, you can do something visually interesting. You're just choosing this slop.

[A]

Yeah. But that is the lingua franca of contemporary animation.

[B]

I understand.

[A]

I wonder if that will change. I wonder what the next phase of that even is, because we've seen these various evolutions in style, or de evolutions, as it were. I don't know. I'm curious to see. I think this movie is quite poor.

[B]

Yeah. Any conversation after the movie in your

[A]

home, we hit on the same issue. As I mentioned, the sister relationship was very impactful and I think made the movie feel a little more coherent. Very clear that Bowser and Bowser Jr. Are trouble. They're not good. I was doing bedtime last night, and Alice said, dad, I think you might be a Koopa.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Which is not good. You don't want to be that. You don't want to be a Minion in service of Bowser. That's problematic for me.

[B]

What did Alice think of the Minions trailer for God and Monsters? Is that what we're calling it?

[A]

Minions and Monsters? Gods and Monsters is a Bill Condon film about the late filmmaker James Whale, as portrayed by Ian McKellen. It was a 1990s Oscar bait film.

[B]

You can have it all in the big picture.

[A]

You certainly can. This is what we bring to the table. Mandalorian Grogu trailer is pure crack. It is like the rockstar eyes exploding when that comes on. Minions captive audience. You know, what we saw, and it was my first time seeing it because, as I said, I was not really following the news while I was on vacation is the Supergirl trailer. And Alice saw that, and she's like, who's that? That's my new best friend.

[B]

Oh, good. Okay. That's good. We found the audience for the Supergirl trailer.

[A]

She's the one.

[B]

I think Knox kind of perked up. He liked the music cues in the Supergirl trailer. But, you know, I've never been prouder than when my child just started absolutely cracking up as soon as the Minions did anything. The exact same, like, physical comedy. That speaks to me about the Minions speaks to him.

[A]

That's wonderful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You guys can see that together. Maybe I'll skip it. This movie's gonna make.

[B]

Knox did wanna come do a podcast. I will do my own podcast with Alice. It's gonna be about space, and then maybe also Minions, God and Monsters. And he can sit in that chair.

[A]

That's really exciting. Alice and I did once record a podcast, and by Record. I mean, she sat in that chair and we didn't record anything. It was about the Last Unicorn. Wonderful animated film featuring voice work from Angela Lansbury. It is about the Last Unicorn.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

If you want to show that to Knox and do a follow up, I'm sure that they would do great together. She also is fond of referring to Bill, who is my boss. Yeah, our boss. And. And when we were making the podcast, she kept turning to the booth and kept saying, bill, is that good?

[B]

Where did she learn this behavior?

[A]

I don't know. I think she probably just heard me talking to Eileen and being like, oh, Bill's calling, or whatever. And then she'd be like, dad, who's Bill? So sorry, Jack. But I think she thinks that Bill, in addition to being the boss, also produces the show. She does also know about Jack, though, and she does have questions about Jack and what Jack is doing.

[B]

Well, Jack met both of our children at the K Pop Demon Hunters weekend.

[A]

That's why she was asking.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So you loom large.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's great. I think it's a good question. What does he do? We don't exactly know. We don't know. He just does stuff. I'll never know. Okay. How do we pivot out of Super Mario? $300 million this weekend? $500 million. $10 billion made. 34 and a half million domestic on a Wednesday.

[B]

Like we were there, you know? And 9:30am was not the first showing. I think it was maybe the third showing.

[A]

Well, I believe there were Tuesday night midnight screenings.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Very cool. Yeah. Very little kids out there. Yes. Yeah. It's going to do very well. That's fine.

[B]

Everybody needs something to do during spring break.

[A]

They certainly do. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. There is such a thing as becoming too comfortable in your day to day. But our favorite films with stories that make us change the way we think, they weren't made by people content to just sit back and watch the world pass by. This is your sign that you shouldn't either. From us, from VW and the other drivers out there. Grab the wheel. Do what you love, even if it means taking the road less traveled. Learn [e-mail] let's pivot to the drama.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is our Super Mario Bros. Galaxy movie.

[B]

It absolutely is. Before you say another word.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm going straight to camera for this one. Do not listen to this until you have seen the drama. I'm serious. It's not even like. It's not because I don't want to be yelled at. It's because I want you to experience the movie without spoilers. Turn it off. I mean it. And come back when you've seen the movie. Thank you.

[A]

You're absolutely right to set it up that way. This is the new movie written and directed by Christopher Borgli. He was a guest on this show a few years ago for his film Dream Scenario. It's his fourth feature film. He's a Norwegian director. It stars Zendaya Robert Pattinson, Mamoudou Athi, Alana Haim, Hayley Gates and Zoe Winters. The plot synopsis is as follows. Days before their wedding, a couple's relationship is shaken when one partner discovers unsettling truths about the other. There is a kind of a plot twist in this movie, and that's why you're setting the table in the way that you are. But it is really more sort of like a piece of information that is shared, a reveal, A reveal that influences the actions of the characters throughout the rest of the movie. And it comes, remind me, about half an hour into the movie, somewhere in that vicinity. So I'll start with, what did you think of the drama?

[B]

Absolutely in on this. I loved it. It is, as you said, a doom. Com. And it is not what has been portrayed in or suggested in the press tour that has been very heavily wedding focused. And there was the fake announcement in the Boston Globe. And Zendaya's been wearing, like, something borrowed, something blue, like they've been doing, like, wedding romantic comedy.

[A]

Very materialist 2.0 marketing.

[B]

Exactly. Which we'll talk about. But so it is. It takes a different turn. But in many ways, it is also kind of a classical romantic comedy. It knows the beats and it knows what it is working against. Not just the audience's expectations, but also of what happens in these movies. But the actual form, the beats, the set pieces, I think it's very smart. This is my kind of scandi perspective, you know, like, sometimes I have a block, but I'm really in line with this view of the world, and I think it pulls it off. I know many people will not think that I understand that this is gonna be a hot button issue, but I think it totally works.

[A]

I thought it worked too. I told you that I saw it a long time ago. I think I saw it maybe six months ago, five months. And so I was seeing it very cold and quite enjoyed myself. I have a real affinity for Borg Lee's court jester, little stinker attitude towards humanity. It is something that is, like, fairly consistent, I think, with some other A24 filmmakers and he gets lumped in with them. There's a little bit of Ari Aster.

[B]

I mean, Ari Aster is a producer on this film. And that makes a lot of sense.

[A]

There is a sense of like, most people are very vulnerable, fallible, insecure, bumbling and stupid. And this movie is an interesting exploration of that from both perspectives. The movie leans more towards Robert Pattinson's character, despite Zendaya being such a big star and such a big part of that marketing that you're describing. We could talk about the utility or lack of utility around that and whether or not this is really a movie about humanity or just an exercise as an act of entertainment and kind of like provocation. I think it's very successful. And these are the kinds of worlds that you and I have walked in. You know, we've lived in cities in America, we've worked these kind of like white collar computer jobs. You know, we have nice furniture, we

[B]

have creative gilding, but they are still just emails and performance reviews.

[A]

Right. You trick yourself into thinking that you have some sort of creative soul, but in fact you are a cog in a broader machine. And, you know, Borgly's very incisive and insightful about the vanity of these people, the frivolity of these people, and also that there is like a real, genuine human frailty that everyone's trying to understand about themselves, but that once you hear about someone else's frailty, it's how quick you are to judge them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think it's pretty clever. I could see it being an amazing script to receive and be like, holy shit. While reading it, not knowing anything. The movie is wrong footing in the audience somewhat and I'm quite curious to see how they respond to it. But I also think his filmmaking style and his command of tone is very specific and very strong.

[B]

His observations, like, it is very tightly written, like recognizable, both script and like the production design. All of the details are when they want to be indict. Indicting very much are. This movie's also set in Boston, quote, unquote. And like, I don't, I don't think this. I know they filmed in Boston, but like, has Christoph Bergli, like, ever been to Boston?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It doesn't have the character of Boston.

[B]

I would say, like, it's, you know, when it wants to attack something or investigate an idea or do an exercise, it's really, really spot on. And then it does leave some other things totally to the wayside yeah.

[A]

Do you think. Do you want to say more things about what works so well before getting into that critical piece of information that is revealed to us?

[B]

Yeah. Well, I mean, as you mentioned, it ultimately is a movie about Charlie, the Robert Pattinson character, and some of that is because of the structure and the reveal. And it is the Zendaya character, Emma, who has this shocking bit of information. And then so you, the audience, are put in the perspective, both, like, structurally, but in terms of the story of the movie into Charlie's point of view, his psychology, what is he gonna do or how is he gonna handle this? So it is. It's a Pattinson movie more than it is a Zendaya movie. And I think weird bungling Pattinson, like, who's still kind of hot, is amazing. And I think he's wonderfully used and really funny in this.

[A]

Yep, agreed.

[B]

And someone who was more or less confident would not be able to pull this off. Also, I think notably, he's not playing an American. Like, he's obviously not an American in real life, but he does get a little bit of distance from the more America coded aspects of what's going on in this film, which is definitely not an accident.

[A]

I never would have guessed that his most favorite screen Persona would be Hugh Grant meets Albert Brooks, but that's sort of where he's going with these kinds of characters. There's a little bit of that in Mickey 17. There's certainly a lot of that in this movie. That's not obviously not his Bruce Wayne, but it feels closest to the personality. He shows us in the world too, that he's a little bit dopey, a

[B]

little silly, but also very insightful. Did you watch any of the clips of another of A24's great marketing gimmicks was that they had the four main actors. So that is Zendaya, Robert Pattinson, Mamoudouati and Alana Heim, like, do a relationship hotline.

[A]

No.

[B]

And they had people call in and ask questions. And Robert Pattinson is the only person speaking any sense throughout the whole. And he's also sort of confronting. The one question that's posed is, I'm supposed to be bridesmaid in a couple weeks and I don't really like this person. What should I do? I don't want to be in the wedding. And the other three people are like, well, you need to have a conversation. You need to be upfront. You shouldn't do it. And Pattinson is like, you want to cancel this? You want to tell this person two weeks before she's getting married. I don't like you just say you're sick. 100%. The right answer, but it's obviously not

[A]

what I would do.

[B]

What would you do?

[A]

I would obviously just do it and accept it and pretend to perform and just be like, this is fine.

[B]

Sure. But I think what we can all agree is that having, like, an emotional heart to heart.

[A]

Yes, no, that's not a good idea.

[B]

But I thought it was telling in the context of the film itself and what is considered, like, correct social and emotional values versus what actually happens in life. What you're valuing, how you should conduct yourself. And Pattinson is kind of on the outside both in this, in these videos and in the movie.

[A]

That's the right way to tee up the revelation, too, in the movie. So in the film, Zendaya and Pattinson's characters are getting. Are about to get married, and they're going through the steps of potential marriage, which is, you know, they're preparing with photographers and they've picked out a venue and they're doing food and wine tasting and they've invited friends to go along to do these tastings. And the quartet of people are taking their sweet time at the tasting, and they're asking for, is it one more glass of Skin Contact?

[B]

Could we have another bottle of the Skin Contact? I haven't made up my mind, right.

[A]

The sort of the, you know, petit bourgeois, you know, city dweller.

[B]

I think Skin Contact is finally out, by the way. And I'm so happy it's finally out. That's another thing I was never on. But, like, no skin, no Easter and no Skin Contact Wine.

[A]

Okay, that's sort of. Sort of related, right? Like the blood of Christ. I don't know if that was skin contact or not. As I recall, when the transfiguration happened. Transubstantiation, that's what it was. So they're getting drunk and they're hanging out, and there's a woman who's looking after them as they're trying these wines. And as is often the case when you're in social settings like this, people start creating these sort of, like, idea games to keep the conversation going. And I believe it's. Alana Haim's character says, let's go around the table and say, what's the worst thing any of us has ever done?

[B]

She tees it up, but she's also looking for. What she does, actually, is that she makes her now husband tell everyone the worst thing that he's ever done. Because she's drunk. And she explains that they did this before the wedding, but really, she just wants it out on the table. Yes.

[A]

She's a toxic character.

[B]

She is.

[A]

And so they go around and they tell various.

[B]

I remember what the worst thing he has ever done is. I remember what she did.

[A]

But she locked a boy who was disabled in a shack. He used his girlfriend as a human shield against a dog that was about to attack them. That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you know, not ideal.

[B]

No, it's not good. But it's also just sort of. It's the blame there is. With the dog and the dog owner, really.

[A]

Okay, well, they said he was a street dog. He didn't have an owner. We're not attacking dogs right now.

[B]

I don't attack dogs. I just attack dog owners. Owners that don't take responsibility for their dogs.

[A]

They go around the table and it stops. It's Zendaya's character.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she reveals the worst thing that she's ever done, which is actually not doing anything.

[B]

Yes. Once again, we're spoiling, so, you know, do your thing.

[A]

She reveals that she imagined, dreamed and planned a school shooting when she was a teenager in high school in Louisiana, and she did not go through with it, but that she did spend a lot of time thinking about it. It. Scheming on it, fantasizing about it. And the tenor of the drinks dramatically changes when this happens, because this is a. Even though the two previous or three previous stories that have been shared are, like, a little scandalous or a little like, oh, you shouldn't have done that.

[B]

And moralizing, like, putting people in harm's

[A]

way in varying degrees, there is obviously a taboo quality, a taboo aspect to school shootings and that level of violence and anyone who's been associated with that kind of violence in our society. And so obviously, the two friends are shocked. Alanaheim's character is very offended. And Robert Pattinson's character is in this unusual position in which the person that he is about to agree to spend the rest of his life with considered engineering a violent mass murder. When she was a teenager didn't do it, but she considered it. Yeah.

[B]

So the possibility, theoretically, is there lurking in this person, or is it now?

[A]

There's a natural human drama to this revelation. Right. About what's gonna happen should these people stay together. How is he feeling in the aftermath of this? And the movie then does spend about 40 minutes, kind of like getting close to his skin and trying to understand how he feels and how he's coping with this information and what he should do and whether or not he sees this person in the same light. The movie is also simultaneously doing something that I find movies don't usually do very well, which is forcing you to think in real time about a moral paradox while a story is unfolding. And the sort of like, well, how would I feel and what would I do if plunged into this situation?

[B]

So I ask, and even what should these characters do? And how are you, like, are you rooting, who are you rooting for in this? And what are you rooting for to happen? What do you think the outcome should be? And how does that shift based on the new information that you learn? Because as you mentioned the first night, she reveals the basic fact, but there are a lot of unanswered questions. And then she just vomits spectacularly. There's a lot of projectile vomiting in this film, which I enjoy and underused, I think, as a visual gag.

[A]

Well, keep that in mind. Get some recommendations going for you.

[B]

And then the next 40 minutes he is trying to figure out what to do, but his first instinct is like, I need to learn more. So I need to learn, like, what do you really. What do you mean when you say you planned like a school shooting and then like, why didn't you do it? And what were the. Like, what are the circumstances? And then the film really digs in in all of them. It uses both flashbacks and hallucinations and I thought an impressive and pretty fluid way. And you could also tell they spent a lot of time and money on the dream scenarios, forgive me, and the flashbacks, which some movies don't, you know, but so they show you in what I thought was like pretty surprising detail. They cast a teenage actor to be the teenage Emma character. She just has a rifle that she is using in the woods. She is. You are seeing a lot of it. You are watching her do several takes of a pre recorded manifesto that she is doing. So it's not just a cute premise or a shocking premise that they toss off and then get into psychological stuff. You do have to live with the planning of the school shooting and the reality of it in a way that I was surprised by, as I think I was intended to be. Right. It is a provocation, but they commit to the provocation totally.

[A]

I think also the style of filmmaking changes pretty dramatically. Again, it's been some time since I've seen it, but I seem to recall the kind of tone and texture of the sequences when she is a teenager being a little bit grittier and feeling almost more handheld. His filmmaking has this kind of like airy, smooth quality to it. A very Scandinavian touch in terms of the grace with which he moves through these kind of anxious comedies that he writes. But in those sequences in particular, they felt certainly more period, and they're set in the south instead of in the east. And the environment that he's shooting in, a lot of exteriors, her bedroom, which is this kind of safe haven, even the school that she's in. And then there's a thorniness to that, that aspect of the story that I would say is not fully explored, but maybe it's appropriate that it's not, which is that this young girl is a black teenager in a school and she feels very outcast. And seemingly one of the key motivations for her planning a school shooting is that she wants to seek revenge on the people who have outcast her. And we see over time, we learn through these flashbacks and through Zendaya talking through the experience that not only does she not go through with the school shooting, but that she actually finds community amongst a group of people who are anti violence and anti school shootings. And that there's a sort of like a group. And one assumes this is in the early 2000s in a post Columbine America where there's like a much more of a consciousness in high schools about this. And she pivots away from being this disaffected person with no friends to finding community and improving her life and maybe having maybe a clearer head about some of these ideas.

[B]

And also becoming an anti gun activist activist. Yes. Which the Pattinson character does say, like, didn't you feel a little bit hypocritical? Which is kind of one of the only instances I remember in the script of. Of someone actually trying to like push judgment or emotion on another person, which I thought was notable because, you know, I think the criticisms, in addition to it being essentially race blind, is I think the way that it just doesn't, as you say, explore any of the American consequences, like the consequences of this being an American black teenage girl in the south, having this high school experience and responding to it in this way, or, you know, then flipping and what puts her into it and what puts her out of it. But then it doesn't explore that. And it does not take school shootings or anti gun activism seriously in the way that we Americans do. And there is even another line when Robert Pattinson is speaking to the. The two friends and, you know, trying to work through his feelings and he says something to the effect of like, but this is sort of an American thing. Right. Like this is something that, that like you guys are like very touchy about, but the rest of us, you know, just understand. And he's trying to like extract himself from all of the socio political implications, which is definitely the approach that this movie takes. And so like you asked earlier, is it like an exploration or an exercise? I think exercise is too dismissive. But it is using it is not exploring the ramifications of race in America or school shootings as something that is like a particular specific blight of this country and something we need to deal with.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's short of treating them like chess pieces, but also short of really drilling down into them. But one thing I liked about the movie, and I think some critics will completely disagree with this, it didn't go out of its way to have that character give a big monologue about how she was mistreated. And this is why she is the way that she is. Because that isn't always how people think of themselves. And often those are dramatic devices that are created in movies so that we can like fully understand the psychological mapping of a certain character. And this movie is being a little bit more elusive about that. And why I think that's powerful is because this is a movie about a confused teenager. She's grown up and she's about to get married. But it's about the psychology of a confused teenager and what the choices that she made and how they impacted the rest of her life. And nobody knows anything when they're teenagers. And you think you know everything, but you don't know anything. And whether or not you should be held accountable for the feelings and the ideas that you had as a teenager is kind of the psychological crux of the movie.

[B]

Right. And the other psychological crux of the movie is from Charlie's side, which is, you know, the simpler what can you know or not know about anyone?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's about the terror of getting married in many ways. And it is the most provocative situation. Like I was going through other lists of horrible things that I could imagine that someone did.

[A]

Or is it a list you keep on the regular? No. Okay.

[B]

But there's no particular permutation where you know, because if someone does something like truly horrible, like kill someone or then there's no gray area. But if it's something with too much gray area, then you're not going to be as drawn in and as stressed out about what should you do? Should you forgive this person?

[A]

Impossible to be definitive.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like literally not knowing what to do and knowing that as an audience member as well as the character on screen. So, you know, I agree that the ethics or the morality of the topics involved are not super explored. Neither really are the characters. Like, these are all, if not archetypes, then Chess Pieces is unfair because that would suggest that they're not scripted out, they're not serving their purpose. But I think everybody is moving around these issues in sort of like a flat, you know, tense way.

[A]

I think it's very consistent with the two previous Borgly movies with Sick of Myself, which is a Scandinavian film that is very funny and very dark dream scenario in this movie. And all three of those movies, I think, have this underlying idea that most people going through life are kind of performing that the real self. And this is Borgli's point of view, I suspect that you're doing things that you think are expected of you, whether that's society's pressures or individual pressures or how you were raised and the way in which that is kind of impeding upon your true self and that very few people are able to kind of live comfortably and specifically the way that they want to live. There's like a kind of stymied quality to a lot of his characters. And you couldn't really tell a movie with Borgli's sensibility through the eyes of Zendaya's character because it would necessitate a little bit more vulnerability and understanding of what was happening there. Charlie is the person who is like, well, shit, what do I do now? And how does this affect me and my performance of my perfect life? And the movie starts so interestingly, even though I've seen it a while ago, I can't forget it's that moment where he's observing her in a coffee shop and he's, like, looking at her and waiting for his inn to go make a move. Because he's drawn to her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because she's Zendaya. She looks like Zendaya. She looks like the kind of person who you're like, now, that's the kind of person I should be married to. And his anxiety and his concern and his kind of overthinking of having the right social experience. Like that defines the tone of the movie. Yes. And his character.

[B]

And then ultimately what he does is looks up the title of her book and lies about having read it.

[A]

Hence the performance.

[B]

Yeah. Now, what's interesting is that character then, like, reveals the pretense pretty quickly on the first dates. So there is, you know, how much people are willing to perform is sort of an inverse ratio into how much Borgley values them or likes them in the film, which I relate to. But this is another. This is another reason why a wedding is such a perfect, perfect choice for the setting of this movie. And it really is more of a wedding movie than the whole school shooting of it breaks my rule would. It does break your rule, but I guess it starts like the Tuesday, like the week of the wedding. So it does technically start with a wedding and it ends after the wedding.

[A]

It does.

[B]

So in that sense, it could barely hold onto your rule, which is weddings. That's. Movies that start with a wedding are good and movies that end with a wedding are bad.

[A]

Movies very rarely end with weddings this disastrous.

[B]

That's true, but they're so funny. But everything in the lead up to the wedding about the wedding itself and the performance of the wedding and the people in the industry, this is one of the great wedding bullshit movies. There's like a dance instructor who is just so mean to them. And also, why are they learning a dance to perform at their wedding? I know it's a thing that people

[A]

do, but a lot of this stuff is very true, though. This is a very sharp satire about this world.

[B]

The shot list that Zoe Winters plays, the wedding photographer, that scene is absolutely incredible. The tasting menu you mentioned there's a wedding DJ who shows up because the original wedding DJ gets fired because she was doing heroin on the street.

[A]

Yes, I love that bit. That side bit was so good when they're watching, but that was that. There are a number of moments like this where how we judge other people that we don't know very well is one of the central conceits of the film. And that one in particular is so interesting. And the idea of that woman who denies it, denies that she is doing what was so clear to them that she was doing. And the idea of everyone kind of trying to protect something and not being comfortable being who they are is the subtext of the entire movie. But the wedding stuff is the inversion of that because it is the most public act. It's the place where you invite all of your loved ones, everyone who really knows you, to see you do something that everyone believes you should all do to be truly happy in this society. And invariably, it's like the people who are in this industry are just like the biggest ghouls in the world, which is clever. I didn't have that experience. I had a perfectly nice wedding. But I know you have some conflicted feelings.

[B]

I thought that this was extremely well observed. And then there is a structural element where for the first part of the movie, the Pattinson character is trying to write his perfect wedding speech and, like, what would be the performed ideal version of his declaration of love for this person? And then, you know, it kind of gets ruined several times over. But also the most performative and the worst person in the movie is the Ilana Heim character who ultimately gives one of the great nightmare maid of honor wedding toasts, which I think we should just. And I can say this because I'm a woman, though I've never been a maid of honor. We should outlaw these. It just. It honestly, it goes very badly most of the time.

[A]

Have you ever given a toast at a wedding?

[B]

Yeah, well, the rehearsal dinner. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Yes, but yes, and I did a great job. But good for you. Yeah, don't worry about it. You did too, when you gave one at our wedding.

[A]

Yeah, I've given a few in general,

[B]

you know, unless you're really ready to give the toast, as my sister in law, Ruthie Baron was at our wedding, like, you know, don't do it. You know, come with the goods or just agreed, say I love you and go home. But this one purposefully, for the. For the film is. Is just a absolutely cringy nightmare. And she is putting on the performance of being outraged that people aren't being honest, even though she's doing it in a wedding speech. It's great stuff. It's really good.

[A]

It's just another nice little snapshot of an idea, too, which is that the thin line between beloved, eternal friendship and mortal enemy is very thin. And that one simple revelation can also fracture that relationship profoundly. You know, it does make you wonder, like, why Alanaheim is even at that wedding. You know, like why she's continued to participate in that friendship in any meaningful. It's a little confusing, right? But, you know, I think the movie has, like, three different sets and tones. One is what seems to be a kind of frothy rom com at the beginning very quickly pivots to almost like a social thriller with some kind of anxiety ammo baked inside. And then the final third of the movie is like borderline slapstick comedy. I mean, the wedding in particular is very outsized and big in a way that the first half of the movie isn't. And it starts with Pattinson pursuing in a bungling fashion, this kind of impromptu office affair with Hayley Ben Gates character, which I thought was so funny and so strange and so off kilter in the way that some of the best stuff in this movie is. Which then culminates in a big thrashing moment in the finale. The movie seems to lose a little bit of interest, I think, in some of that provocation. And who are we really idea as it goes into the final third. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing because I think of the movie, I think Dream Scenario had a hard time tying up its loose ends. And this movie seems more tightly focused on making sure that we get to the end of this movie in a clean way, perhaps too clean. I don't know. What do you think about that?

[B]

I mean, I appreciated the very classical romantic comedy ending turned on its head, which is satisfying in that real puzzle sense of we get to where we're going. And you as soon as it starts the callback, you're like, oh, I see. You put the piece here and you put the piece here. And there is something both soothing about that as a viewer and then also because this entire movie has been a rejection of not just romantic comedies, but also, you know, the idea of love and marriage and weddings and the ability to know someone else. It works because it's tied in a bow, but also, is it at all? And then you wonder, you know, what's gonna happen next. And it's a neat ending that is also not neat. And I appreciate that. I agree that it completely just drops the ethics of the school shooting of it all. And if there are people who watch this and are just very offended by that segment of the film and don't think that it's addressed appropriately or, you know, worn out respectfully, I completely understand that.

[A]

I just think that I don't agree. Yeah, that level of piousness doesn't necessarily appeal to me in terms of a movie like this. This is a movie that is certainly talking about serious subjects, but it's attempting to have fun with individual human foibles, which is something that I enjoy. I think it's really good. I think it's impressive.

[B]

Totally agree.

[A]

Hold of a certain kind of tone.

[B]

Let's talk about the apartment for a little. I mean, I just. And you mentioned like the slick scandi quality and I suppose there is a scandi mid century modern element to the design of the apartment, but it is, it's so knowing. It was like Sofia Coppola level of detail. Like there are like 14 different Akari lamps, you know, in each structure. It's really, really funny. Like the zellage tile and the. The kitchen, obviously the spiral staircase. They just. Everything that Zendaya is wearing, the details are like are playing into the film and spot on and tell a story all their own. I was very amused.

[A]

Yeah. I get the impression he walks through these worlds pretty consistently. And I think he's also kind of an auteur for our times insofar as we live in a time when people will fight online about the dumbest bullshit for hours and hours and hours and hours. But when something genuinely, culturally, socially dangerous or scary comes up, everybody's like, fuck, I don't know what to do in person. I don't even know how to have this conversation without either hectoring someone about it or completely turning off. And that there's no middle ground. There's no ability to kind of talk about our feelings about things or mistakes that we have made in a productive way, which is a very European sensibility to bring to an American setting. And I think he's very good at it. I like this movie now. I don't know if this movie's gonna be a hit. I think it's cool that Zendaya and Pattinson are throwing their weight behind stuff like this. I think this is what you're supposed to do. You can make Batman and you can make Dune, and you should also make these kinds of movies. If it's successful, it's going to be entirely on their shoulders that, like, we want to go spend time with them for two hours in a movie theater. I don't know.

[B]

And also the A24, you know, hide the ball strategy, which you invoked. Materialists. And this is maybe not the same week, but the same time of the year, last year that Materialists got its release, and many people felt that they were getting or expected a romantic comedy and instead got, you know, a man shortening his legs.

[A]

A leg shortening farce.

[B]

Yeah. And didn't respond. And there was a mismatch between the marketing and what audiences got that they.

[A]

Purposeful.

[B]

Purposeful. And people still went to see the. Materialists.

[A]

Yeah, Materialists. You know, we had a ball talking about it on the show. I think we both thought it was very, very mixed bag of stuff. I think this movie is a little bit more successful creatively and will be a little bit less successful culturally, because I do think you have more people who are gonna be like, what the fuck is that about this movie? Whereas Materialist was sort of like, huh, that was weird.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

But not in a way that could offend, really. Unless you're really short, I guess, in this movie.

[B]

Zoe Winters also had a questionable plotline in that. In that film as well.

[A]

Very true. She's really become a kind of.

[B]

Yeah, she's amazing.

[A]

Sixth man of the Year for a 24.

[B]

All of them. In some ways, I think you're right that this is more of a. Like a what? This is not what I was promised. In other ways, I do actually think it is. It is a romantic comedy. It's just a completely upside down one.

[A]

You're right. You're totally right.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Do you think this is a big twist? Because certainly this is available to people out there and some people have had it spoiled for them. Yeah, I think the way that you set this up is right. Which is the movie just does not really work as well if you know what the twist is and you didn't know going in. I was going through the list of all time classic movie plot twists and almost all of these twists happen in the final 30 minutes of the movie. And this one happens in the first 30 minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so this is a little different than your standard fare, but we haven't really talked about plot twists that much on the show over time. Well, do you have a favorite?

[B]

You know, I'll always remember being 12. No, 15. And seeing sixth sense and I made it to sixth sense without knowing what was going on.

[A]

That was brutal for me, unfortunately.

[B]

Yeah, it's brutal, but that was incredible. And I was also the right age. I mean, historically, I am not a very smart movie watcher in that I will just kind of go along with it and then give myself over and be surprised. But that one, I really. I obviously didn't know what was gonna happen.

[A]

Yeah, that really ruined a great movie for me in some ways. You can go back and watch it and enjoy the film in different ways. Now, the Usual Suspects, I think was the big keyhole for me. The one where I was like, oh, you can do this in a movie. And I thought very cleverly showed us flashing images that had been presented throughout the movie as all the little clues summing up the Keyser Soze revelation about Kevin Spacey's character, Verbal Kint. You know, there's a couple of all time classics, a few all time classics that we can talk about. There's Psycho and the idea of Mrs. Bates Norman's mother actually being dead and learning that Norman is in fact the killer. You cited Casablanca, which I would not have thought as a movie plot twist.

[B]

Well, this is. Well, Victor Laszlo is my husband and was. Even when we Knew each other in Paris, which is like, I call this the Jane Eyre. But the. Like in all romantic dramas, like the Oops, actually, I'm married. Yeah. There's a secret spouse somewhere else. And that comes fairly early.

[A]

Planet of the Apes is one that was spoiled for me by attendant cultural media. You know, like, if you just watch the Simpsons, you could have a lot of movies spoiled for you as a kid growing up. But that one. And also, just remember my dad saying, soylent Green is people, which is the big revelation of the Charlton Heston movies. Soylent green from the 70s. But we've gotten a lot in recent years. I've noticed that a lot of recent movie history is defined by, oh, shit, moments in movies. Oldboy has a few of them, but the one in particular that's the most upsetting is when we learn that Dae Su has been tricked into sleeping with his own daughter. Not ideal.

[B]

No.

[A]

Not what you want.

[B]

No.

[A]

Park Chan Wook. What a little freak arrival. I had not read that short story before I saw the film.

[B]

Yeah, nor had I.

[A]

And very devastating revelation at the end. If people haven't seen these movies, they're going to be really mad at the. Hope you've turned the pot off by now. We're talking about movie plot twists here. Crazy Stupid Love. If you Google movie plot twist, this is one of the most cited plot twists in recent movie times. Do you feel that this is a plot twist?

[B]

When do we learn? Is it really just at the barbecue at the end?

[A]

I think, Yeah. I think it's more than an hour into the movie that Ryan Gosling is in fact dating Steve Carell's daughter, who's played by Emma Stone. And that this suave.

[B]

They learn that. But we don't know. Like, we don't see Emma Stone talking to Steve Carell beforehand.

[A]

I don't think it's. I think it's what Sean's saying. I think it's closer to around the hour mark. It's not like right at the end

[B]

of the movie, but the barbecue at the end is when they all find out. And they do the Spider Man.

[A]

Yep. Yes.

[B]

Okay. Listen, whatever the younger generation needs. I like that movie. I like it when they do the Dirty Dancing Lift.

[A]

Yeah, It's a good film. Yeah. The Prestige.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're twins.

[B]

Yep. You're just naming them all off.

[A]

Sorry if you haven't seen the Prestige or Old Boy or Arrival in Crazy Stupid Love. Weird podcast to be listening to. One and a half Hours in the others is one that I like quite A bit. You seen that one?

[B]

That's a M. Night Shyamalan. No, no. Which one is that?

[A]

That's Alejandro Amenyabar.

[B]

No.

[A]

Spanish filmmaker Nicole Kidman is the star of this film. You haven't seen this film? I'm. Oh, my God. Don't even look at what I've written down. Then you should. I don't want to spoil this for you.

[B]

Well, I already read it. Have I not seen this?

[A]

Oh, it's a very good film.

[B]

Oh, no, I've seen this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen. I just didn't remember. Yeah, of course we did, because we did. Kidman hall of Fame.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[A]

That is a great twist there. Primal Fear was one year after the Usual Suspects. Yeah, that's good. Good for you, Marty. You know, the revelation that Aaron Stampler is not a split personality, but it is, in fact, a sociopath and knowing murderer, there's a whole.

[B]

This also, though, Primal Fear then ruined a lot of crime fiction afterwards.

[A]

How so?

[B]

Because he's a sociopath or he's a psychopath or she's a psychopath is only a satisfying reveal once, you know, and then it's only like, oh, my gosh. In Primal fear, and then the next time, it's like, well, there's actually no rhyme or reason to what's happened here because this person was just a psychopath.

[A]

Okay, I didn't know that. I don't read a lot of contemporary crime fiction.

[B]

I get mad when it's. You know, every writer does it once. You know, but when you're in the book and you realize, like, oh, this is the psychopath novel, it's just not very satisfying.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think I quite realized that this was David Fincher's stock in trade, purely for a period of time. Seven doesn't have a twist so much as a shocking revelation at the end of it. But the Game and Fight Club are both pure twist movies. And Gone Girl is also a pure twist movie. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, based on a book with a twist, but, yes, of course.

[A]

I mean, so is Fight Club. The Game and Fight Club, we don't learn the twist until the very end of the movie, but Gone Girl, we learn. Is it less than an hour into the movie that we learn that this is all a scheme?

[B]

Yeah. Or maybe the halfway mark. I mean, it's kind of bifurcated. The first half is Affleck, and then the second half is. I don't remember her name. Rosamund Pike. Amy. Amazing. Amy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The cool girl.

[A]

The Crying Game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you think that's aging?

[B]

Really, really great. I'm sure.

[A]

Yeah, I haven't seen it. I've never seen the movie.

[B]

I remember my parents talking about this.

[A]

It was a flashpoint for movie discussion. There are a great many examples of this in horror movies over the years that have shocking revelations. I just wrote down a handful that popped into my mind as I was thinking about them last night. But Saw is one. There have been 10 Saw movies now, and I think they're kind of like not taken very seriously. But the first Saw was shocking. I think the first Saw played Sundance as an independent horror release from James Wan and was shocking to people. The Mist was an adaptation of a Stephen King story, but that has a crazy twist in the film adaptation. Sleepaway Camp. That's another wild one. Orphan Cabin in the woods. Have you seen 10 Cloverfield Lane? Do you know about that one?

[B]

That's not the orig.

[A]

No, it's the second Cloverfield movie.

[B]

Yeah. No.

[A]

Mary Elizabeth Winstead and John Goodman.

[B]

So you're gonna spoil it for me now?

[A]

No. Nope, nope. They're trapped in a subterranean space during what we think is possibly a post apocalyptic moment, but we don't know. The John Goodman character is very paranoid.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Maybe schizophrenic. Check it out. I think it's really worth watching.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think it's darn good. Barbarian.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know about that because we spoiled it for you on this podcast. Malignant. Another James Wan movie. Parasite.

[B]

It's a good one. It also comes about an hour in, Right?

[A]

Maybe a little. Well, the third family revelation to me is the big twist of the movie. That's the.

[B]

Like in the basement.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that amazing shot of the husband coming up the stairs.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, maybe you're right that it's only that it's like an hour 15 or something, but then there's a while of. Cause they banish her. And then they all work their way in. And then they've all worked their way in, but I don't know, there's at least another 30 minutes when you know. So it's not the very end.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. There's a lot of incident after that. Do you want to speak about your personal trauma?

[B]

Sure. So was recently at home watching Return of the Jedi with my son, with both my children. You should hear Sy say, yub, yub. It's quite, quite cute. And I'm sitting there, Zack's in the other room and Knox, my older son, out Of Nowhere goes, hey, mama, did you know that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's dad? And that is true, and I did know it. But what I knew is that my son had not seen Empire Strikes Back because my husband decided to square skip from A New Hope to Return of the Jedi because he thought Empire Strikes Back is too scary. And then I learned that my son, he told my son, he was like, well, he needed to know for plot purposes. He needed to understand Return of the Jedi. He needs to know what happens in Empire Strikes Back. So I told him. I'm still so angry. I cannot believe this. My son doesn't understand. My son thought that the Super Mario movie was about like a sh. Ship, guys. Like, he doesn't. He doesn't need to know. He can just watch the movie, and when the time is right, we'll show him Empire Strikes Back. Why are you ruining this perfect moment? Really, really angry about it.

[A]

Well, that's just something that wouldn't happen in my household.

[B]

I'm very sorry I didn't have anything to say about. Zach made the executive decision that we were going to go A New Hope. And then Return of the Jedi.

[A]

And I, you know, I understand the impulse.

[B]

You have to. You have to let both parents parent, you know, So I was like, that is fine. I'm not gonna get involved. But Knox says this out of nowhere. And I was looking like, who told you that? Like, how did you. Were you on Wikipedia? He was like, dad. Dad told me.

[A]

Yeah, that's just. That's just a very sad story. It's a very sad story about snatching wonder from the mind of a child.

[B]

He maintains that he did the right thing.

[A]

And then now I will say Empire Strikes Back is scary. And, you know, it was not an issue in our home. But I have heard many parents that I've talked to about this, especially because when we were watching the Star wars movies, I was telling a lot of parents like, oh, yeah, we're doing the Star wars movies. And some were like, oh, it's great. This works. This doesn't work. And some were like, we did A New Hope. I tried to do Empire, and they couldn't do it because it was too intense. So I understand the motivation. The spoiling couldn't be me. That's not something I would do.

[B]

He stands by it. And then as like a. A rejoinder, he keeps throwing back the fact that I allegedly told Knox that it's a grown up in the Mickey Mouse suit, which, first of all, I don't remember saying. That, and I don't think that that's true. And second of all, I think that that is really different.

[A]

You should tell him it's a grown up, but that it's always Uncle Chris. That would be the way to make that okay, I think.

[B]

And Zach thinks that is worse than spoiling Empire Strikes Back. I just. I couldn't disagree more. This is a fundamental issue in our marriage.

[A]

Well, you know, life is tough, you know, and you got to learn the hard way that you're not going to get things exactly the way that you want them all the time. You're learning it now as you parent. Knox is learning it now as he has the magical wonder of the Empire Strikes Back, one of the greatest moments in movie revelation history taken from him cruelly. One day he'll be able to come here and do a podcast with Alice about how his father ruined his life. Now he can't ever have that. It's a real shame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that is among the greatest plot twists of all time, is learning that Anakin Skywalker. You know, I'll be curious to see if, as Nox gets into the prequels, if you guys allow him to see the prequels, if he develops the same affection and interest in Anakin as my daughter has. Because I think Anakin might now be one of her, if not her favorite characters. She really feels like he's misunderstood. And we watched Rogue One the other day, which is really not for kids at all. But at the end of Rogue One, Darth Vader shows up and he just wrecks shop. He's got his red lightsaber and he's just going to town trying to get the map to the Death Star that leads into a New Hope. Right. That movie ends right where New Hope takes off. And she was kind of pumped that he was kicking ass and killing rebel soldiers. So, you know, we understand these things differently than when we were kids, where Darth Vader was the ultimate embodiment of evil, but still, he's kind of a sad kid.

[B]

That's some millennial shit right there.

[A]

Yeah, there's a historic Patton Oswalt bit about that. But when you watch the movies as a young person and you have all this context and backstory, it changes your definition of it. But your son will never really understand he had it taken from him.

[B]

It's too bad. At least he has Mickey Mouse. I told him that that was wrong, that it really is Mickey Mouse. And he was like, and he has a tummy and everything, so.

[A]

Good question. Yeah, we all do.

[B]

Why does The Mandalorian wear a helmet.

[A]

It's a part of the ancient religion that he follows that you always have to have your head covered. And that is a sign of respect. I think that's right. I could be completely wrong.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Well, I mean, maybe Easter would be a good time to talk to him about ancient religions.

[B]

I'm gonna let you do that.

[A]

I would be happy to.

[B]

Yeah. I have a complex. And we know that you love to explain complicated things to small children.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's one of my skills, you know, I've been doing it very

[B]

much as we've learned. This is what happens when I let other people parent, you know, is that Empire Strikes Back gets killed and suddenly, you know.

[A]

Well, you can trust me with all things Star wars, other stuff. Very debatable. That may not be my true skill. I think that's it for us. Okay.

[B]

How the Mets doing? Good. Bad.

[A]

Oh, it could be better.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It could be better. I just recorded in a Mets corner this morning.

[B]

I saw that. But to be candid, won't listen to that. With all respect to Zach Lowe, who I also love and admire.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I just.

[A]

You won't listen. Why?

[B]

I don't have that kind of time, you know.

[A]

I see.

[B]

But I'm watching. I'm doing the Meryl Streep tape, you know.

[A]

I know. Me, too.

[B]

I'm really digging in, so I just wanted to check in with you.

[A]

They're three and three.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They are 29th in the league with runners in scoring position, batting average wise.

[B]

Right. Okay. That's not. That's not good.

[A]

Some struggles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we're going to bounce back.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's going to be okay. Next week on the show, speaking of statistics and data.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're going back to 35 under 35. Our patented movie Star ranking. We've been doing this for many years. I think this will be our fourth year. 35 under 35.

[B]

Yeah. Because when we started it, I was 35 and I wanted to be eligible and you said no. Anyway, those days are long gone.

[A]

Nope. You're eligible for 35 over 35 now. But we're not doing that. We're doing 35 under. I thought we were going to be short on some names because we have had a lot of people graduate. But then I've discovered a great many new names that have been added since the last time we did it. So this will be a fun exercise. We haven't even started yet. We gotta. We gotta.

[B]

I know. Well, we, you know, we had to

[A]

do this cracking thanks to Jack Sanders for his work on this episode.

[B]

Did we spoil any movies for. For you and for Lucas?

[A]

Not really. I don't think so. Lucas, he's never seen Crazy Stupid Love.

[B]

Okay, well. Wow. So Ryan Gosling is friends with Steve Carell and then dating his daughter, and they don't know. I'm sorry.

[A]

Amazing plane movie. Great plane movie. Good call. Speaking of Lucas, thanks to Lucas for his support on this episode. And we'll be back Monday with this ranking, which I think will be received very well.

[B]

People are always kind, supportive. They listen. I would say listening comprehension very high among our audience.

[A]

They have respect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And sophistication. And they are committed to this project like we are, and I love them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See you next time.