The Top Five Ethan Hawke Movies and a Double Shot of Richard Linklater, With Ethan Hawke and Richard Linklater!

Summary

The Big Picture – “The Top Five Ethan Hawke Movies and a Double Shot of Richard Linklater, With Ethan Hawke and Richard Linklater!”

Podcast: The Big Picture (The Ringer)
Date: November 17, 2025
Hosts: Sean Fennessey, Amanda Dobbins
Special Guests: Richard Linklater, Ethan Hawke

Episode Overview

This rich, wide-ranging episode dives into two new Richard Linklater films (Nouvelle Vague and Blue Moon), explores the enduring legacy and creative process of Linklater and Ethan Hawke’s collaboration, and celebrates Hawke’s best film performances. The hosts contextualize these new films within Hollywood’s current season, touch on industry news (from Tom Cruise’s honorary Oscar to the state of Disney remakes), and then welcome Linklater and Hawke for a deep, substantial interview on artistry, filmmaking, time, regret, legacy, technology’s effects, and much more. The episode closes with the hosts’ own “top five Ethan Hawke movies,” and a disarming mix of humor, admiration, and insight.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

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1. Movie News and Industry Conversation

[01:11–16:00]

• Oscar Season & Governor’s Awards:

  • Discussion of honorary awards, especially Tom Cruise receiving an honorary Oscar.
  • Amanda insists, “To this I say give him a real Oscar. Like this doesn’t count…no half measures for me.” (03:12)
  • Commentary on award show format and the presence/absence of key figures like Dolly Parton or Bradley Cooper.

• Disney’s Remake Era:

  • A new Moana live-action teaser prompts bemusement: “This one in particular feels bizarre because Moana is still very much a part of the consciousness… there’s not even that sense of, like, recreating ancient magic.” – Sean, (06:56)

• Upcoming Jane Austen Adaptations:

  • Amanda reflects on the perennial cycle of remakes: “They have made a million Pride and Prejudices and also spinoffs... You just have to pick the versions that mean something to you.” (11:06)
  • Dialogue about casting, generational shifts, and Ang Lee’s 1995 classic version.

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2. The Linklater Double-Feature: Nouvelle Vague and Blue Moon

[16:07–44:42]

Nouvelle Vague

[17:04–28:55]

• Premise:

  • Linklater’s recreation/homage to the making of Godard’s Breathless and the dawn of the French New Wave.
  • Written by Holly Gent & Vincent Palmo; shot in period style with loving cinephile detail.

• Reflections:

  • Amanda: "It's a loving, nostalgic portrait of a bunch of kids who kind of knew what they were doing, but also definitely didn't know what they were doing at all." (18:04)
  • Sean: "It felt like a little stunty to me…I think, because Breathless is already such a well-chronicled film. There’s so much scholarship." (21:30)

• Movie’s Strengths:

  • Celebrated for its hangout energy, attention to period style, and insightful depiction of youthful, sometimes delusional, artistic effort.
  • Both hosts highlight the fun of film-nerd details, recreations, and casting (“the Chris Sabo played third base for the Reds” effect).

• Ambivalence:

  • Both note the potential limits of meta-cinephile projects, especially for those less familiar with the era.

Blue Moon

[29:11–44:42]

• Premise:

  • A late-night, single-location drama about lyricist Lorenz Hart (Ethan Hawke) facing career twilight during the opening of Oklahoma! in 1943.
  • Script by Robert Kaplow.

• Critical Praise:

  • “One of my favorite movies of the year. I think this is just a tremendously beautiful and sad movie.” – Sean (31:17)
  • “A play, but a movie—in the best possible sense… It makes the most of what it has. Very sad, very sad movie about being really old and not being.” – Amanda (32:59)

• Hawke’s Performance:

  • Both hosts call out Hawke’s transformative, self-loathing portrayal as among his very best – “the level of self-hate…this self-loathing that Hart has…one of the best things Hawke has done in years and very out of his traditional range.” (32:28, 41:14)

• Themes:

  • Portrait of fading ambition, regret, delusion, and the struggle for acceptance/legacy.
  • Comparison with Nouvelle Vague: both explore “delusional men,” but at opposite ends of their creative journeys.
  • “This is a very sensitive portrayal of somebody who is losing it.” – Sean (44:00)

• Supporting Cast:

  • Margaret Qualley (“a good use of her…her wide-eyed beauty”), Andrew Scott as Richard Rodgers.

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3. The Linklater-Hawke Interview

[47:06–105:37]

The Genesis and Process of Blue Moon

[59:12–63:48]

• Long Gestation:

  • Blue Moon was workshopped over more than a decade, with “no time pressure,” repeated readings, and script revisions.

• Why Now?:

  • Linklater: “We had to perfect it...the Bullseye is extremely small. If you don’t hit it exact…this movie’s not really even a movie.” (61:26)
  • Hawke: “Strangely, [I] felt more ready to try… I really loved Larry [Hart], and felt like I’d grown up with people like him my whole life in the theater.” (62:55)

The Collaboration:

[64:23–68:21]

• On Changing as Artists:

  • “Rick was really giving me the opportunity to be the actor that he knew as a young person I dreamed of being.” – Hawke (67:08)

• On Trust and Demanding Directing:

  • Hawke: “Your desire, interest and curiosity to rehearse… makes 7, 11, 14, 17 minute takes possible… because we’ve talked about and worked on the nuances…” (83:18)
  • Linklater: “Ethan had to disappear.” (70:24)

Thematic Resonance — Art, Aging, and Relevance

[74:41–80:28]

• Artistic Expiration:

  • Linklater: “It’s hard to say what makes you want to make a movie, but it definitely got into me, this [Hart] character… an artist would have an expiration date… it’s kind of sad and poignant, but like an athlete’s career comes to an end.” (75:11)

• On Failure, Regret, and the Passage of Time:

  • “Larry Hart didn’t make the transition into the second half of his life… that’s haunting to people like us who dream of doing this at 80.” – Hawke (77:37)
  • “Do you have any fears about time running out or not being able to do all the things you want to do?” – Sean (78:54)
    Linklater: “I don’t. Illogically so.” (78:59)

Technology, Attention, and the State of Art

[93:03–101:48]

• Are We at the End of an Era?

  • Hawke: “Every departure is an arrival… things are about to get really exciting… young people are getting absolutely sick of manipulated images, of stupidity, of short attention span theater.” (90:51–92:12)
  • Linklater: “Whenever technology and art and commerce intertwine…it has our little amygdalas going all the time…but we’re still here…” (93:04)

• The Adversary:

  • Linklater: “There is an enemy out there who wants something else from you. [Your phone] is getting in the way of you being your own best friend.” (95:15)

• On Reading and Focus:

  • “Do I have the patience like I used to, to lay around and read all day?… What’s this little thing in me that’s kind of jumpy…now I’m going to check the news feed.” – Linklater (99:18–99:31)
  • Hawke: “I would roll through 50 books a year, and now if it’s 10, it’s shocking. And that’s a huge change.” (99:39)
  • “The power of the language, the power of the ideas were not easily understood, and they were better because of it.” – Hawke on reading Marilynne Robinson (100:10)

• On Mystery & Meaning in Art:

  • “Things without mystery have no power. Mystery is the reality. We do not know why we’re born and why we have to die… you could revisit.” – Hawke (101:48)

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4. Top Five Ethan Hawke Movies

[52:18–58:44]

Sean’s Top 5:

1. First Reformed – “I love that movie. And that movie is also so on the money about how everything feels right now.” (57:27)
2. Before Sunset
3. Before the Devil Knows You’re Dead
4. Blue Moon (new pick)
5. Training Day

Amanda’s Top 5:

1. Before Sunset
2. Reality Bites – “I saw him in Reality Bites when I was, like, 11, and I was like, that’s it. That’s what’s gonna haunt me for the next 35 years.” (52:37)
3. Boyhood
4. Blue Moon
5. Dead Poets Society

• On Hawke’s Appeal:
  • “There is a… he’s just so cool. He’s very calm and sits back, but also really emotionally open.” – Amanda (52:37)
  • “He has changed a lot as a performer over the years…” – Sean (53:07)

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5. Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Artistic Collaboration:
  • “It’s very hard not to get sick of your friends…sometimes it’s hard to be honest…Rick was really giving me the opportunity to be the actor…[I] dreamed of being.” – Hawke (67:08)
• On Delusion and Art:
  • “Both of these movies are about delusional men…in one case someone is incredibly successful, in another case someone fails miserably, but there is a sensitivity to artists.” – Sean (46:49)
• On Changing Eras:
  • “Every departure is an arrival…no sooner does something end than invariably something else has to begin.” – Hawke (90:51)
• On The Value of Focus:
  • “You have to be your own best friend. And that phone is getting in the way.” – Linklater (paraphrased by Hawke) (96:16)
• On Empathy in Acting:
  • “Our experiences in life are not nearly as unique as we think they are…and our powers of empathy are very strong.” – Hawke (86:16)
• On Mystery in Art:
  • “Mystery is the reality…things without mystery have no power.” – Hawke (101:48)

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6. Linklater & Hawke: What’s the Last Great Thing You Saw?

[105:37–108:09]

• Ethan Hawke:
  • “I just watched The American Friend… the photography is unbelievable. Dennis Hopper in those images… not flashy, just stunning.” (106:04)
• Richard Linklater:
  • “I watched The Story of Adele H. by Truffaut recently, and it was just as beautiful… Truffaut never goes away.” (106:50)
  • Praises current work by DiCaprio (“a leader in my profession”), Emma Stone, and more: “They’re always worth your time. They’re always bold.” (107:12)

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Highlighted Timestamps of Key Segments

• Oscar Season & Industry Talk: 01:11–16:00
• Nouvelle Vague discussion: 17:04–28:55
• Blue Moon review: 29:11–44:42
• Linklater & Hawke interview begins: 59:12
• On artistic expiration: 74:41–80:28
• Technology, distraction, reading: 93:03–101:48
• Top Five Ethan Hawke Movies: 52:18–58:44

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Summary Tone and Language

This episode is playful, thoughtful, and tinged with nostalgia and a touch of melancholy. The hosts and guests speak candidly—often with wry humor—about art, aging, regret, and the creative process, peppering the conversation with cinephile references and self-referential jokes. Both Hawke and Linklater model warmth, intellectual curiosity, humility, and a shared devotion to craft and to each other’s artistry.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode is a masterclass—both in appreciating film history and process, and in understanding what makes the Linklater-Hawke collaboration so rare. You’ll get a deep understanding of two new films (Nouvelle Vague’s playful cinephilia and Blue Moon’s raw emotion), come away with a list of classic Hawke performances, and hear hard-won wisdom about making meaningful art in a distracted, ever-changing world. Above all, you’ll hear the joy and struggle behind creating cinema that matters.

Transcript

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Ethan Hawke]

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[Chris]

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[Ethan Hawke]

Shower line at crack of dawn.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Ethan Hawke]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Chris]

I'm Sean Fennessy.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm Amanda Dobbins, and this is the.

[Chris]

Big Picture, a conversation show about life and death and art. And art for sure. On today's episode, we'll discuss two new Richard Linklater films, Nouvelle Vague, which is now available on Netflix in the United States. In Blue Moon, which is expanding in theaters later this month. The former is a recreation of and homage to the making of Jean Luc Godard's Breathless and the dawning of the French new Wave. The latter is Blue Moon, an elegiac portrait of the lyricist and musical theater legend Lorenz Hart, which stars Ethan Hawke in one of the year's great performances. Later in this episode, Amanda, I will have Richard Linklater and Ethan Hawke here for a conversation. I don't know if I could name two people that I like more or like talking to more that have been on this show before. And to have them together was very special. It was a very good conversation. They were here. They were sitting right in the seat that you were in, not on top of each other. There was a third chair here. Ethan Hawke was third chair on the Big Picture.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And he was in the middle.

[Chris]

He was right in the middle.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's cute.

[Chris]

He middled. And it was, honestly, I'm excited to hear it. Quite moving. They're obviously great. We'll talk about their films here as well. But before we get into the two new Linklater films, let's talk about the true beginning of the Oscar season, which started last night. The Governor's Awards were held and. And there were a handful of Academy honorary awards given out, along with the Jean Hirschholt Humanitarian Award. Now, normally, we would just talk about this event in passing and just cite who the people are. For years these awards were given out on the telecast. I wish they would go back to that, but they no longer do that. This year in particular seems like it would have been a good time to do it. In part because the most famous recipient of all the recipients.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Well, well, Dolly Parton won the Humanitarian Award. She was not able to attend because she has been ill. But let's just, let's put Dolly Parton aside. Don't you dare try to compare.

[Chris]

Dolly Parton is a world historical icon. She's not Tom Cruise. She is not known in the same way that Tom Cruise is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't think that we needed to pit them against each other like you did.

[Chris]

Well, the Academy did by putting them on the same show on the same night on a Sunday night. Debbie Allen, the great choreographer, actress, dancer, also was given an award in Wynne Thomas as well. But Tom Cruise received an honorary Oscar last night.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. So there were a lot of photos circulating last night of Tom Cruise holding an Oscar statuette and looking grateful. To this, I say give him a real Oscar. Like this doesn't count. As I said to you before we started recording, write a novel and give Tom Cruise a real Oscar. You know, no half measures for me. So that's fine. It seemed like a nice party. Literally everyone who is involved with awards season or who is running for an award this season was in attendance. Except for Bradley Cooper.

[Chris]

Where was he?

[Amanda Dobbins]

He was at the Eagles game, watching the Eagles barely squeak by the Detroit Lions. I really want to know what's up with their offense, but that's a conversation for another day.

[Chris]

You know, I picked the wrong year to draft Saquon Barkley on my fantasy team. I got to say, this has been actually quite challenging.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I just like, I don't actually watch the games anymore because I have to be in charge of two children. But I, you know, I check the score as just a mood indicator to know what I'm walking back into. And it's just been three nothing in the fourth quarter like times this season. It's just not really the explosive offense that we're looking for.

[Chris]

It's not. For more of those takes, you can turn to any of the ringer football podcasts. There are a great many of them out there. The Tom Cruise honorary Oscar, of course, for his work in movies for the last 40 plus years. He talked about the fact that he doesn't think of movies as something he does, but something that he is, that he is a person who makes Movies. And he used some familiar lines that we've heard in his speech last night. He. He is also running. He's just running a year early.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You know, the person who handed him this honorary Academy Award last night was Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu, the filmmaker that he's just finished a film with that is coming out next year, next summer, in fact. And many people believe that this movie will be a bid for another Academy Award to pull a Paul Newman, who famously received an honorary Academy Award before winning for best actor at the time.

[Amanda Dobbins]

In a film with Tom Cruise.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Does this next summer give you any pause?

[Chris]

Not really.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Chris]

I think Sinners came out in April and it's doing just fine. That's true. I think the paradigm. You've pointed this out to me many times over the years. The paradigm has kind of shifted there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. But not for an Inaritu film.

[Chris]

No. But he's a unique case where for the most part, his films have commercial viability and they also tend to draw water awards wise. You know, Bardo. That was not the case for Bardo.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I was literally trying to remember the name of the Bardo. That was a nice kitchen that they had in that apartment.

[Chris]

Bardo.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That stays with me. The tile work was beautiful.

[Chris]

I see. Got it. Moving on. Congratulations to Tom Cruise. I suppose. I agree. I think an honorary Oscar is a nice thing and I do like it when it recognizes someone who's been doing great work.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Every time we talk about it and every time they come up in the context of the show, they're about people who definitely deserved at least one real Oscar and all they could muster was an honorary Oscar. It's an also ran award. It's fine.

[Chris]

Okay, moving on. We saw a teaser for Moana this morning.

[Richard Linklater]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We watched it together on this very laptop.

[Chris]

Yes. And it was just breathtaking. It was truly staggering.

[Richard Linklater]

No.

[Chris]

So there's a next year also. In addition to this inary to Tom Cruise movie, one of the other big event movies of the year is a live action remake of Moana. Moana in my Home brings out. It is a truly important cultural artifact. It is a film that is going to be 10 years old in 2026. And so that means that this live action remake, which candidly looked like it was animated.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, it looked like, as you said, it looks like Avatar. It did look like island, the water, the creatures. I mean, you know, Avatar, the way of water is beautiful in its own way.

[Chris]

See? Okay, so this is my point here. Obviously, we've struggled both you and I have struggled through the duration of this entire program with the Disney live action remakes. We don't like them. We don't really get the point of them. This one in particular feels bizarre because Moana is still very much a part of the consciousness. We just saw a sequel last year. Kids rewatch these movies all the time. But more specifically, there's not even that sense of, like, recreating an ancient magic that you might get in a Beauty and the Beast or even in a Lion King. The Lion King was the most recent, largest gap between original film and new film. I think it was 25 years. We're not talking about 10 years gone by.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Chris]

The other thing is that Dwayne the Rock Johnson is reprising his role as Maui in this movie, but he's not to be seen. At least his face is not to be seen in this teaser. Does that indicate anything to you?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, it's been a rough three weeks, six weeks at the box office and in movie world for Dwayne the.

[Chris]

Rock Johnson, it has.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know. This is a teaser, as you said.

[Chris]

All right.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know. What is your daughter's relationship to Maui?

[Chris]

She thinks he's funny.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. But she's watching it for Moana, 100%. So they're making this for the daughters of the world, not for people who are going to be like, hey, the Rock is in the new live action Moana as the Rock.

[Chris]

I think Moana tends to bridge the gap between the young male and young female audience.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. But young as opposed to parents who are like, oh, hey, it's the Rock.

[Chris]

Yeah. You know the songs, though. The songs are good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Chris]

Like, really good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Let's go. Let's hear it.

[Chris]

I could do Where I'll Go From Start to Finish, which I think is a masterpiece.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, what. What is that song about? What is it expressing?

[Chris]

It's about the yearning and desire to break free from home.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure.

[Chris]

You know, to find your own path, to be a wayfinder. The way that Moana becomes a wayfinder.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It'S a part of your world.

[Chris]

It is absolutely in the tradition of Ariel's journey. I think that's part of why it's one of the good Disney films.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't think updating some of our concerns about Ariel's priorities.

[Chris]

Yeah, she's.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Moana's not driven by a man. She's, in part, driven by a demigod.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Or by things that's true.

[Chris]

You know, she's not covetous.

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's not Materialist she is.

[Chris]

But Celine song probably does like the Little Mermaid and probably Moana if she's in a Zootopia one imagines Zootopia two. I don't have it on the schedule. Okay, what are we gonna do about that? It's gonna be like the third biggest movie of the year.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'll take Knox to see it.

[Chris]

In what condition would we discuss it? Cause like I'm looking at the schedule, it's like, wow, we gotta have a J. Kelly conversation, right? We're gonna talk about sentimental value. At what point does Zootopia 2 figure in? Any thoughts?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, you don't want to do a double headed double header. You want to do half J. Kelly, half Zootopia too.

[Chris]

I guess we could do that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Speak to the two halves of ourselves. You know, inside me there are two wolves.

[Chris]

I guess so. I guess. I guess that's something that we can do. Speaking of.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I don't know if there are wolves at war with this announcement, but this morning we learned that Focus is going to be releasing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We means you. I knew. I've known about this.

[Chris]

Oh, you knew this was going to happen? Okay. I didn't know about this. So there's going to be a.

[Amanda Dobbins]

We've also talked about it on this podcast.

[Chris]

No recollection.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's fine. You don't remember anything when I say that's okay. You know every single label that has released every single of the 10,000 blu rays that you own, but you don't remember actual recorded conversations that we have together about things that are interesting to you?

[Chris]

I don't. What do you think that says? What do you think that indicates?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I am not surprised to learn it. But now the rest of the audience has it confirmed.

[Chris]

Okay. To put this out there. There will be a new version, a new adaptation of Sense and Sensibility coming next year from Focus that is gonna be directed by Georgia Oakley with a script from Diana Reid starring Daisy Edgar Jones. It's officially dated for next September. It's 30 years later after your beloved 1995 classic that's True.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Which I would like to note that is being re released in theaters in December. A limited re Release for its 30th anniversary. I'm excited. I will be there.

[Chris]

Is this a good idea to readapt this?

[Amanda Dobbins]

So the thing about Jane Austen adaptations is that they are plentiful. You know, this is. They have made a million Pride and Prejudices and also spinoffs of Pride and Prejudice. Pride and Prejudice set here. You know, the Bridget Jones Diary is an update of Pride and Prejudice. Clueless is a update of Emma. Like it's. They are both used like, as the actual text and also inspiration. So you can't say, like, oh, Sense and Sensibility is sacred and you can like, never remake it. There is also, I believe, a TV show of Sense and Sensibility.

[Chris]

Like, yeah, apparently there's a 2008 version which I'm not familiar with.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, exactly. Like they keep on doing this. So you just have to pick the versions that mean something to you and stay true to those.

[Chris]

It does feel less picked over than some of the others.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I think it's a weirder story. And also the 1995 Ang Lee version, written by Emma Thompson, starring Emma Thompson and Kate Winslet and Hugh Grant and the late Alan Rickman and Hugh Laurie, and the list goes on is an absolute classic. It is very, very hard to live up to. And you know, the Pride and Prejudice is the. Is the wholly most referenced of the Jane Austen texts. And for a long time, its most celebrated or most famous adaptation was a TV show. So then when Joe Wright came in to make a movie, there was something that was slightly different about the format. This is a movie to. This is a film to film thing, which I think is, you know, playing with dice, you know, a little trickier, but it's fine. What are you going to do?

[Chris]

So just reading this, I would have thought I saw Georgia Oakley's previous film Blue Jean from 2022, which is an interesting movie. And I would have thought that the version that they would have pursued might have been a modern update or a retelling. I was watching Hedda this morning, Nia Da Costa's adaptation of Hedda Gobbler, which is like a reinterpretation of that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is. It is 9:58am Right now. So what time did you start header?

[Chris]

7:30.

[Richard Linklater]

Okay.

[Chris]

When my family went out of the house.

[Richard Linklater]

Wow.

[Chris]

Yeah. I'm about this life.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I know, but I just like. I mean, that's fascinating. Good on you.

[Chris]

I'm doing the work.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Chris]

This is what we have to do.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I was making also a living do the work, but I'm just like sitting there with a hairdryer at 7:30 in the morning trying to get ready for this shit.

[Chris]

You know, this all comes naturally, this level of beauty. My point being that I would have thought that this film would have been a kind of a reimagining like Hedda, which is an interesting movie and we can talk about it down the road. Just looking at set photos, it does look like it is holding to traditional period.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And, you know, that's interesting. I guess it makes the comparisons more stark, more specific, because we already have a film that is from this period in which the book is written.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This happens. You know, they've made little women every 30 years since movies started. So my issue is that the wonderful Katrina Balfe is playing Mrs. Dashwood, which is just a real. Like, we are all old together. That she's.

[Chris]

How old is Mrs. Dashwood supposed to be?

[Amanda Dobbins]

She's old enough to be a widow and to have two daughters of, quote, unquote, marriageable age. Obviously, they scaled everything down back then, but I don't know. She's at least mid-40s.

[Chris]

Katrina Balfe is less than three years older than me.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I. Right. But, you know, she. It's tough for all of us. It's just more like we're the. We're the parents now, you know? Wow. Ireland, let me tell you, Belfast, an incredible movie about how hot she and Jamie Dornan are. I've never seen anything like it.

[Chris]

I suspect we'll talk about this movie a lot more when it comes out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Will you go see the 1995 version?

[Chris]

I watched it for this podcast.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know. And you're taking it. Your take was like. I don't really get, like, why women are so stressed.

[Chris]

That was a common refrain on this show.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. All right.

[Chris]

No, I liked it. I did like it. I remember. Did I not like it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

You did.

[Chris]

I think I was a little more down on the English Patient in our movie swaps.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's true. Yeah.

[Chris]

Sense and Sensibility, I liked a lot. Ang Lee, one of my faves.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's very beautiful. Will you read the published journals that Emma Thompson kept during the filming of Sense and Sensibility? They're wonderful.

[Chris]

Okay, maybe I will.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Chris]

How long is it?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's not that long. It's out of print. I was thinking last night as I went to sleep like that I should get it out and read it again. It's a comfort read for me when things are a little stressful.

[Chris]

You know, I talked to.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So after I find it, I'll give it to you.

[Chris]

Please do. I. I talked. I do. I love a journal during a production. Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, it's really. It's very cool. And she's talking about, like, you know, they're making adaptations. She's throughout the production process because she's a screenwriter, but she's also in it and has. It's wonderful.

[Chris]

Sounds great. When I was speaking to Linklater, and Hawk, we got into a conversation about reading and just like how it's harder to read now than it used to be for not just young people, but older people as well. And it's interesting because this is a pair of movies that are not about reading per se, but do feel not just from a different era, but from a different time in film sensibility. You know what I mean when I say that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean they are for sure, and they are both period pieces about making art almost 50, more than 50 years ago, and about two forms of art that definitely feel of a time, of a throwback, if you will, in a musical or just kind of like standards for musical theater and the films of the French New Wave.

[Chris]

Let's talk about the latter of the two. The later of the two, which is a film that was made more than 65 years ago, Jean Luc Godard's Breathless, which is the framework for Nouvel Vaque. So this new movie is written by Holly Gent and Vincent Palmo, the same duo, I believe, that wrote me, and Orson Welles, which is sort of the last time that Linklater went back into a period of examining a great artist making something in this very specific, somewhat true way. The film stars Guillaume Marbek, Zoe Deutsch, Aubrey Doolan, Bruno Dreyfus, a handful of others. It's, as I said, it's an attempt to recreate, if not totally to the truth, at least the essence of what it was like to be in Paris in the late 50s as this cohort of film critics turned filmmakers started achieving great success. And this film focuses very narrowly on Godard, right on the verge of making and then ultimately filming Breathless.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I mean, it has a day by day breakdown of what is going on in Breathless and is, you know, titled like day four, day 20. You know that there are 20 days of shooting. So it's. We'll start with Mia Volvag. But I do think that these are a very interesting pair because they are both about the creation of art and they are about an artist at a certain phase of career. And Nouvelle Vague is the really ambitious young guy, starting out, has a dream, trying to make something happen. Uncompromising, sort of ridiculous, sort of endearing. We can talk about whether this movie likes Godard at. As we talk about the film. And then Blue Moon is about an artist who has achieved something and who is at the end of his career and is having a hard time letting go. So I really do think that they bring out the best in each other. I think Blue Moon is more Successful on its own. But what I liked about Nouvelle Vague was because I had just seen Blue Moon a couple weeks ago and I was like, oh, so you, you know, you worked with Blue Moon? Linklater works with a longtime collaborator in Ethan Hawke. And it is an end of life movie and very sad and very affecting. And this, in a lot of ways is Linklater going back. I mean, it's going back to the beginning of a career, but also going back to the beginning of his career. I was thinking a lot about the walk in talks through Paris in Before Sunset. This is filmed in Paris. It looks beautiful and is about someone very exacting and pretty delusional and definitely annoying and a bunch of people being annoyed with him and also not quite being able to keep up. I think that it has a lot of. It's made with a lot of empathy for everyone involved in a really nice way. Like, it's kind of a loving, nostalgic portrait of a bunch of kids who kind of knew what they were doing, but also definitely didn't know what they were doing at all. I think all the stuff around it, especially at the beginning and I guess at the end, though, I wish there had been more about the editing room, personally, which is an incredible thing to say about a film. And it is more compelling than just the recreation of a day to day. You know, we have Breathless, notably, this.

[Chris]

Film does not show us a single frame of Breathless. It shows us lots of the making of this kind of. Kind of breakneck, but also moving at a snail's pace trip through Paris with these two, primarily with these two actors. It's a really strange movie. I watched it a second time and I'm glad that I did because I watched it in the reverse order that you did. I saw Nouvelle Vogue first. Nouvelle Vague premiered at Cannes. Blumen premiered at Berlin. And so both of these movies have been in the world for some time, but they're only just now getting seen by wider audiences. Neuville Vogue, the first time around felt a little bit like what I'll call Name some guys cinema, which is a thing that baseball fans talk about when they, as you've seen Chris and I just saying men's names from who played third base in 1996 or.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, it's always the early 80s. Cincinnati Reds.

[Chris]

Yes, yes. And there's something very sweet about Linklater, who is a massive cinephile and started the Austin Film Society and has seen everything and loves the new wave, has been talking about the new wave for years and years. And him Just getting the chance in this very specific period way where he's shooting on Kodak film in black and white. The aspect ratio, even the way that the subtitles are written on the screen. It feels like you're watching a movie from 1959 or 1960. That's very comforting. It's very fun. It's very fun to cast an actor to play Jean Pierre Melville. It's very fun to cast all these young actors to play Gabriel and to play Truffaut and all the familiar faces from that period in time. It felt like a little stunty to me, I think, because Breathless is already such a well chronicled film. There's so much scholarship. Those journals that you were talking about that Emma Thompson wrote, there's a lot of journals. Godard was kind of breathlessly tracking every step that he took across these films. That's something that the critics from Caillou du Cinema were really good at. They were really good at materializing their ideas about movies. And not just about what's in a movie, but how to make a movie, how to sell a movie, what an audience thinks a movie should be and what we think a movie should be.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And the film does communicate a lot of that. And when you're in the Coyote Cinema office or when you get to go to the film with them and then have them like, shit talking it afterwards, that stuff is very charming and fun.

[Chris]

That stuff is my favorite stuff in the movie because it felt the most like everybody wants some. But for the new wave, where it's just like friends hanging out, shooting the shit, kicking ideas around, making fun of each other, there's nobody in the world who's better at that than Richard Linklater. He is the master of that kind of a hangout movie. The actual making of the film stuff I thought was kind of interesting only insofar as how much tension can Zoe Deutch bring to the film as Gene Seberg.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right.

[Chris]

And whether or not you believe that she actually was, like, really struggling during the production of it and, like, mad at him all the time, which is very reasonable. His producer is also mad at him. He's working in this very difficult way where he's waiting for inspiration to strike. He's trying to follow Roberto Rossellini's, you know, colon, like philosophical digressions about the way to do things.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Driving along in the car and just, yeah, it's wonderful.

[Chris]

Everything that is like that. Everything that is like Chris Sabo played through bass for the Reds. That stuff is so good.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And everything that involves poor Zoe Deutsch having to speak fluent French in her American Jean Seabrook accent. And I was like, I can't. And I know what this is like. And I know that Jean Seberg did not have a perfect French accent in the film Breathless. But. But let's be real, everybody, there's only. There's only so much. Well, it's not, it's not anybody's fault. It's just the structure of the movie of having to have everyone. It's implausible and grating.

[Chris]

Yeah, she looks like her, though.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Totally her.

[Chris]

The pixie hairc and the styling of the film. The production design of this movie is pretty amazing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, no, it looks beautiful. And that's another thing where it was just very, yeah, comforting and charming.

[Chris]

It definitely has charm to be wandering.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Around for a while and they go to Cannes and there's a conversation had while someone's doing a pin up Cannes photo shoot. I was like, all of this, the vibe is very good. It's just once you're recreating Breathless, I mean, Breathless is currently available to stream on HBO Max, you know, which I then did go do.

[Chris]

Yeah, I didn't do that. It's funny. So I rewatched it last night with Eileen. I'm sure Eileen and I watched breathless 25 years ago, but I haven't seen it in a very long time. And I was just trying to situate her in what this movie was and what it was attempting to do. And it's a little hard about halfway through to be like, so what are we really worried about here? If you accept it as a hang, I think it works really, really well. If you're looking for something that is sort of like driving in some way, it's not that kind of a movie. Most Linklater movies are not really like that. I do think though, that it's very consistent and Godard's point of view on making this movie is very consistent with what Linklater is interested in, like his ethic. You know, it's like, work with your friends, trust your gut, acknowledge tradition, but try to break your own path. Like all of these things, I just feel like they're things that resonate deep inside of him. You mentioned something interesting though, which is like, does this film like Godard?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I think that has empathy and, and recognizes what's going on. You know, the Godard and the Linklater, like the filmmaker is obviously the stand in for the other filmmaker, but there was some knowing lovingness about the way that this person is young and idealistic. And like preposterous and. But impassioned and believes in. In what he's doing that I think. I think Linklater is rooting for him. I think the film is. Yeah, of course. Which, like, how. How could you not? But it's also like, you know, what an idiot sitting there being like, no, no, no, we're done for the day after two hours.

[Chris]

Which is seemingly not the way that Linklater would work either. And has learned how to survive within independent filmmaking for a long time. I think he obviously has a tremendous amount of respect for him. I thought this when I first saw the movie and then Linklater confirmed it too, that he was like, I'm really more of a Truffaut guy. And the humanism of Truffaut just seems much more in step with what Linklater's usually after. You know, Godard is this very kind of like dogmatic, almost ideological, hard edged figure in the history of cinema.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And he has that great scene where they're fighting about the continuity of the cup, which I did think was very funny. And he's just yelling, I mean, like, but what is real? Like, the reality would be that you, you know, I can't recreate it. It's also in French, but it's very funny.

[Chris]

It is very funny.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is. And it gets to. You understand that Linklater relates more to a different style of filmmaking. But he is. It's a funny idea and also just a funny portrait of what it means to be like a young, idealistic artist setting out, which I do think that Linklater has a lot of affection for.

[Chris]

He definitely does. A staggering resemblance across the cast. Guillaume Marbek, it's true, just looks just like Godard. I mean, you know, I think anybody who has that kind of like widow's peak hairstyle and is slim and can wear shades, you could pull it off. But he really captures what we imagine at least the energy of him to be at that time. And that helps the movie a lot. A lot of the other historical figures, even if we don't really know what those people were like, it feels very close. And that goes a long way. You know, what was it that Linklater. He cited a recent example of trying to find someone in a movie that looked like the person that they were representing. And he was really appreciative of the work that was done there. I want to say it was in Justin Chang's piece about Linkletter that was in the New Yorker a few weeks back. But the attention to detail is what makes this movie, I would say more or less successful.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's an interesting experiment and the production design and the. I mean, I did. I was sitting there being like, okay, so clearly they were in Paris. But like, how did they do this? This is amazing. You know, which. It's worth seeing.

[Chris]

Definitely. Definitely worth seeing. Fun movie. I'm not quite sure internationally how it's being distributed. I know in France it's playing in movie theaters. I think it's only in the US on Netflix. But definitely fun and worth seeing. Let's talk about Blue Moon now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So this movie is written by Robert Kaplow, who is the author of the book Me and Orson Welles was based on. But he did not write that screenplay. But he did write this. This is his first screenplay.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's also. Did you learn this? Related. Do you remember the Watcher?

[Chris]

I did. I read.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So yeah, he's involved in. So the Watcher was a Reeves Wiedemann New York magazine story from five, 10.

[Chris]

Years ago, but adapted into a Netflix miniseries.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. Which Kaplow was involved in because he was not actually the watcher or living in the house that was part of the Watcher, but he lived in the same town and was also doing some watching of his own or something. I fascinated.

[Chris]

At first some thought he might have been the watcher, but then he was not the watcher.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, but check that out.

[Chris]

Interesting life for Robert Caplow. This movie that he's written is quite fascinating. It sounds like it was written many years ago, maybe more than 10 years ago, and that Hawk and Linklater have been circling it for a long time. It's been more than 10 years since Hawk and Linklater made a movie together. They've made nine movies together. They're one of the great cinematic partnerships certainly of our lifetime. And this movie is set in 1943. It is about Lorenz Hart, the lyricist who is confronting shattered self confidence in a bar. It's an all in one night movie for the most part, as his former collaborator, Richard Rogers is getting set to arrive at Sardis, the legendary New York City theater bar, after the opening night of Oklahoma.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Exclamation point.

[Chris]

Yes. Which is his first piece working with Oscar Hammerstein, the composer who would then go on to create one of the most successful duos in the history of musical theater. Prior to this, Rogers and Hart were a tremendously successful duo who made musical.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Theater and wrote some of the great songs and standards of the early 20th century in America, including Blue Moon and also My Funny Valentine, which is referenced In Nouvel Vague.

[Chris]

That's right. That's right. I forgot about that. So Linklater was, for years, apparently a huge fan of Ella Sings Rogers and Hart, which is an Ella Fitzgerald album that features 20 of those standards performed by her. And this is, I'll just say, one of my favorite movies of the year. I think this is just a tremendously beautiful and sad movie and kind of the inverse of Nouvelle Vague, where Nouvelle Vague, on its surface, you would think would be tough, difficult. And underneath the surface is actually a very warm and sweet movie about friendship and about success and about pursuing something that you believe in and achieving it. And this movie is the opposite. It's a movie that, on the surface, you have this smiling Ethan Hawke who's got his head shaved and has got a comb over and has been shrunk down to five feet and is very sweet and charming and charismatic, but right underneath the surface, within the first five.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Minutes, embittered and wistful and just like life is not even slipping away, but has slipped away. And you can watch that reveal itself in real time over the course of the night.

[Chris]

Desperate and unloved is how I would describe this version of Hart. And I think it's one of the best things Hawke has done in years and very out of his traditional range. And also, it's just a great all in one place movie. And it's hard to make an all in one place movie entertaining and interesting. And the way that this movie is shot and blocked is unfussy, unshowy. It's not trying to do too much with the fact that it has limitations, but I was, like, just tremendously emotionally engaged in this movie. What did you think about Blue Moon?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, I loved it. I mean, any movie that starts with the characters quoting Casablanca to each other. No one ever loved me that much. I mean, it's. And it uses. This is a movie that loves movies and like, you know, old Hollywood as much as we do. And it's very much built into the text and to the script, which I think is very good in some ways. It is like, you know, a play, but a movie. But I mean that in the best possible sense where it is really focused on it. It's like tightly written, it has ideas, it's focused on the performances. People show up for kind of one or two scene arias, and it makes the most of what it has and is, you know, just a very, I agree, very sad, very sad movie movie about being really old and not being.

[Chris]

Able to, but not that old. To your point about Katrina Balfe. I believe Hart was 46 years old.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That's why we're also like, oh, God, you know, life is coming for us. This. This film does the thing that you.

[Chris]

Normally don't like, which shows you something at the beginning.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I didn't love that either.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Even here. Even though I do find that that choice sets the tone. Because I honestly, I don't know what. Before this film, I didn't know about the life story of Lawrence Hart, you know, And I don't know his outcome. I mean, I know what happens with Oklahoma. Just incredible theater criticism of Oklahoma. Throughout the movie. It's really, really funny. But I. And, you know, so I know that he. I know that Rodgers and Hammerstein go on to great fame, but I didn't know the pretty sudden tragedy that happens after this film. And so knowing that does help you interpret the film in a different way because it's kind of. It's all sort of a lost cause, you know. And there's like. He keeps talking about. So Andrew Scott plays.

[Chris]

Richard Rogers.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Richard Rogers. Thank you. Sorry. And they keep talking about how they're gonna revive an old play with five more songs. And there's. And, you know. And that's presented a Connecticut Yankee.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The Hart character is like, this will. You know, I'll be back in, and this will be my big break. And I think we all know because of the way the film opens that, like, even if that does happen, it doesn't matter. This is not going to be the beginning of another career. So I think, functionally, I understood the decision.

[Chris]

That's interesting. It's the only thing that I really took issue with in the movie. I also did not know much about the Life of Heart. I was happy to not know much about it. I think the movie does that very interesting thing where it allows the character to kind of talk through their own personal history in a way that feels. Felt mostly naturalistic in the setting. It didn't feel like forced exposition.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Chris]

And I think if you remove that opening sequence where we see him fall in the rain.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

For someone who didn't know about the person's life, it would have felt more dramatic. It would have felt. And the sort of revelations about the aftermath of this opening night of Oklahoma, I think would have felt stronger, more powerful. It would have hit. It would have been a little bit more tear in my throat than it ultimately is.

[Richard Linklater]

So.

[Amanda Dobbins]

But it's not. The movie is not a melodrama. You know, it's like an elegiac. There is something you're watching this guy and it's like it's over before it started.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And that is what the film and the character is about. And he is the only character who has not quite made peace with that. But to understand what's going on with him, I do kind of think you need to know the contours to get the full. I don't know. It worked for me.

[Chris]

Setting that aside, the other thing that I think this movie shares in common with Nouvelle Vogue is that to use a word that you use to describe Godard, both of these movies are about delusional men. You know, like, men who are just like, convincing themselves that what they're going to do and what's going to. How everything is going to work out. And in one case, someone is incredibly successful. In another case, someone fails miserably. But there is something too, about the, I think, a sensitivity to artists, people troning things, which is just a really vulnerable, strange thing. Like, you and I get in front of a camera and we talk at each other and it's fine and it's vulnerable, but not like when you're like, here's something I have poured my soul into that means the world to me. And Hart in particular, a writer who was sort of moving out of fashion in the mid-40s in terms of the style of comedy, lyricism that he was gifted at, and also a sense of how the world was changing. This is amidst World War II. And there's a kind of optimism in Oklahoma that is completely absent from most of what Hart pursues. He can write a romantic song, but it's usually a little bit more pointed and cultural. And Rogers originally went to Hart to write Oklahoma, and he turned him down. And then Rogers turning to Hammerstein leads.

[Amanda Dobbins]

To this Oklahoma Carousel, South Pacific, the King and I and the Sound of Music.

[Chris]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the most successful collaboration in the history of musical theater, probably.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes, absolutely. But, you know, those are all pretty sappy. And I say that as I'm not a huge fan. World's number one sounded music fan over here.

[Chris]

But, you know, I can't pretend to be an expert on the shows of Rogers and Hart because they're actually just so out of fashion that they're not produced as often as the Rodgers and Hammerstein stuff, which I've seen most of. And most of I just don't think is that great to me. But people love them. And heart. Being a known genius who's washed up is as tragic as it comes. You know, just like the way that Hawk embodies this incredible sense of sadness without having lost his wit and his intelligence and his kind of nascent, annoying charm.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. There's a charisma.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

That is kind of flickering in real time. And the bitterness and the alcoholism and the delusion break through throughout the course of the film. But every once in a while, he just steers it back to something just completely effervescent and amazing. And you're like, oh, this is who this person was.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And just cannot get back there. And life won't let him get back there.

[Chris]

Another thing that this movie shares with Nouvelle Vogue is that there are a handful of famous figures who crop up in the story. These are significantly more invented than what you might see in Nouvel Vogue. For example, at Sardis, on this night, sitting at a table by himself, writing in his journal, is E.B. white.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

E.B. white, seemingly at the doorstep of writing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Charlotte's Web and Stuart Little, because literally, of course, he gets inspiration for Stuart's name and how to spell it from heart.

[Chris]

I don't think that's actually how that happens.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't either. But it is written into the script of the film. They reference it.

[Chris]

You know, I really like that little jag where EB White comes in as kind of like the gentle, observant conscience of creativity for a short period of time. And then there's like a fairly amusing, but also a little silly introduction of a very young, presumably Stephen Sondheim, who is neighbors with Oscar Hammerstein and who joins him at the premiere of Oklahoma and has seen every musical theater performance and has some withering takes for the work of Lorenz Hart. And it's just a funny nudge in the ribs of any musical theater fan. Sondheim obviously would go on to kind of take on the mantle of the greatest living musical theater writer. I mean, probably immediately after Rodgers and Hammerstein.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Chris]

This movie is. This doesn't usually always work for me. When an actor is like, I'm doing a biopic or I'm recreating a figure. I'm transforming hair and makeup. We're gonna use trenches to make me seem smaller than I actually am. And Ethan Hawke, he never does this. He never wears makeup.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's very naturalistic.

[Chris]

He almost always embodies a version of himself. It might be in the year 2300, like in Gattaca, but he still looks like Ethan Hawke. And I thought this was a fascinating choice. There's also a small, low budget movie made, I think, in 15 days which would have been pretty challenging. And I think it's like among the best things he's ever done.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He's wonderful in it. And I think I want to talk about the Margaret Qualley character, who is, for lack of a better term, the love interest. Though how that works out is in keeping with how things work out in the rest of the film and is kind of another dimension to. I don't know whether it's delusion or denial or self hate, but it is very funny to see Ethan Hawkeye not in. Not getting the girl mode or not even close to getting the girls. Yeah.

[Chris]

I asked him specifically, like I can't think of a single time where you played the guy who cannot get the girl.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And the level of self hate, that's the other word that I use. This self loathing that Hart has. Hart was believed to have been a closeted gay man, but he proposed to multiple women and wanted to be seen as a man about town. Yes, exactly. And maybe even like a conqueror in some ways and was constantly falling short of that. And in the film, Margaret Qualley plays a young woman named Elizabeth Weiland, who is a Yale student who's an aspiring musical theater composer and wants to be in this world. And she befriends Hart and they have this kind of confidant relationship and he feels romantic feelings for her, or at least says that he does. And she sort of leads him on in part so he can introduce her to some people. But she also seems to have affection for him, but certainly not in the way he keeps asking for. I think there's an extended sequence of them alone in an office that runs a little long for me. I think Margaret Qualley is well cast. I think this is like actually best.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Use of her, a good use of.

[Chris]

Her and what her kind of wide eyed beauty represents and her ability to sort of like be one step ahead, but the audience thinks she's one step behind for most of the sequence. So I liked that part. Okay. It's just kind of the final nail in the coffin, almost literally of Hart's ego and his sense of self worth.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. And also the idea of himself versus the reality of the world that he's living in.

[Chris]

Do you think many successful people feel this way, have this intense sense of regret, longing, oh, failure when it runs out?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes.

[Chris]

How do you know if it's run out?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I think he knows.

[Chris]

Just asking for a friend. Yeah. This is a very sensitive portrayal of somebody who is losing it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And I really like it. Hawk well, let's talk about Linklater really quickly. Okay, so he's 65 years old. He did not. He does not seem it. His hair is brown. You know, he's in good shape. Still seems like an athlete. He's in the midst of this production of Merrily We Roll Along.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Right. How long, how many years has it been now?

[Chris]

I think it's been less than 10. So I think he's about a third of the way through. Okay, maybe a little more than that. And the plan is to film until 2040.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Chris]

He's doing this with Paul Mescal, Beanie Feldstein. And is it Ben Platt?

[Amanda Dobbins]

That sounds right.

[Chris]

I think it's Ben Platt.

[Amanda Dobbins]

So he'll be 80.

[Chris]

So he'll be 80 at the conclusion of this production.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It is Ben Platt.

[Chris]

So that is, you know, he's obviously done this before with Boyhood. These kind of durational projects over time. I think Justin Chang also pointed out that this is sort of his version again of what Truffaut did with Antoine Donnell. Like this idea of tracking the same character and the same actor over a long period of time. But in this case, he's doing it in standalone movies, which is just one of his ultimate, fascinating time based innovations. But just in the last few years, he's been very productive. He made the rotoscope animated film Apollo 10 and a half a few years ago for Netflix, and then Hitman last year for Netflix, and then now Nouvelle Vogue and Blue Moon in the same year. Very vital at this stage of his career. He's made over 20 movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Good for him.

[Chris]

He's fucking killing it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

He loves to make movies.

[Chris]

What are you going to be doing at 65?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't know. I'm reading a very grim book about the future right now.

[Chris]

What's the book?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's the new Ian McEwen novel.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah. You've been anticipating it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's wonderful. It's really, really good. I'm almost done. But it's not optimistic about what any of us will be doing at 65.

[Chris]

What's the name of the book?

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's called what We can know by Ian McEwen.

[Chris]

I see. So that'll be 22 years from now. For me, 22 years will be 2047. My daughter will be 26. Oh, that's fine. I can be dead by then. Okay, that's fine. I got to get to 21 for my daughter. That's, that's, that's the most important thing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Her age. Yeah, you need to get and Then. Then good luck, Alice.

[Chris]

Well, I don't want to die, but if I die, it'll be okay. I won't fight it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, that's good.

[Chris]

I will fight it. I'll fight it tooth and nail. Don't pull the plug on me. As George Carlin once said.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. I mean, I hope you have other arrangements for that written in your will.

[Chris]

No. You're the first call when I'm on my deathbed. You are the first call because I trust you to be unsparing.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Chris]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Chris]

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[Ethan Hawke]

It's so easy.

[Chris]

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[Amanda Dobbins]

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[Chris]

Before we go to Hawk and Link later, I want to talk about Hawk quickly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So I hope he gets nominated for best Actor. I genuinely hope. It's an extremely competitive year and this is a small.

[Amanda Dobbins]

This is our. Listen, Sony Pictures Classic has done it before, no doubt.

[Chris]

They're amazing at this.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Never forget the wife.

[Chris]

Yeah, well, I have forgotten it, but I know what you're saying. Let's very quickly go through Best Actor before sharing our favorite Hawks. Okay, so at the moment.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wow, look at this glamour shot. We changed to him looking great. I mean, he's always looking great.

[Chris]

He's also on the lowdown on fx, which I haven't started watching yet, but I intend to watch over the Thanksgiving break along with Andor I'm gonna set movies aside for a week.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Wow.

[Chris]

Watch some television.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. I'm gonna be on an airplane with two children under four. So.

[Chris]

Yeah. A blue moon of your own. Good luck to you. I'm so excited for that week because I'm not going anywhere. So at the moment, Variety has. Here's the top 10 for Best Actor in reverse order from 10 to 1. Clooney for J. Kelly Plemons for Begonia. Dwayne Johnson for the Smashing Machine. Brendan Fraser for the Rental Family. I still haven't seen that. Nor have I. Jeremy Allen White for Springsteen.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I can't believe we're still doing this.

[Chris]

Michael B. Jordan for Sinners. Wagner Mora for the Secret Agent. Timothee Chalamet from Marty Supreme. Leonardo DiCaprio for one battle after another. And in the number one position, Ethan Hawke for, for Blue Moon, who has this? Clayton Davis at Variety.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Chris]

Wow. This was published on September 26th.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay. Um, I take issue with, with some of that ranking. Uh, I would love for that for Ethan Hawke. I, I, I don't think that he is in pole position. Is that the correct usage of the term pole position?

[Chris]

It certainly is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thanks so much.

[Chris]

Sounds like you've seen F1. Um, let me tell you, I was.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Actually gonna ask what sport it's from, so. Good.

[Chris]

As a counterpoint, on October 23, Awards Watch said that Ethan Hawke was in 11th place behind Will. Dwayne Johnson, Jesse Plemons, Jeremy Allen White, Joel Edgerton. I don't think that's right either. Yeah, this is almost, almost three weeks.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Three weeks ago now. I mean, I see Michael B. Jordan. Yes. Leonardo DiCaprio. Yes. Wagner Mora. Yes. Still haven't seen that film, but I'm.

[Chris]

Looking for, I figure out how to talk about that.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know, I'm very excited, but I just. Who is the fourth guarantee that I'm forgetting right now?

[Chris]

Leo.

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, I already said Leo.

[Chris]

Leo. Wagner Moore, Michael B. And Timothee Chalamet.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, and Chalamet, of course. Yeah.

[Chris]

Gold Derby currently has him at fifth. So that's a little bit in the midd between the two. I think that's probably right. And that's what I'll hope for.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Chris]

I think that would be an awesome five. That would, that would be close to what I think are the five best actor performances of the year. And that doesn't usually happen, but this is a really, really competitive year. I think some of the, like, lower, you know, I think Brendan Fraser and Daniel Day Lewis and, you know, Russell Crowe for Nuremberg. Like, those are not really. I haven't seen that yet. That's also going to be part of the Hedda episode where we talk about 10 movies that we didn't talk about.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay, so Hedda Nuremberg. What about the. What's it called?

[Chris]

The Choir?

[Amanda Dobbins]

The Chorale?

[Chris]

The Coral, The Choral.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I just. The. The trailers before my Blue Moon screening were just like an incredible 1998.

[Chris]

Yeah. The SPC run.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sony Pictures. Classic throwback situation.

[Chris]

I like those. Have you seen Seurat?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No, but. Don't tell me anything. Tell me nothing. I'm going.

[Chris]

What about Kiss of the Spider Woman?

[Amanda Dobbins]

No.

[Chris]

With respect to Jennifer Lopez, I will see it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

We haven't talked about Ballad of a Small Player.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know. That's just on Netflix. Gotta see that.

[Chris]

It is.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I threw that on last night. What did you put on last night? I threw on Ballad of a Small Player. Completely forgot it was out.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Okay.

[Chris]

It's not very good.

[Richard Linklater]

It's a disappointment.

[Amanda Dobbins]

The Lost Boss.

[Chris]

The Lost Bus. Oh, the Lost bus with Matthew McConaughey.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, right.

[Chris]

These are all, in theory.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. We're gonna do. Listen, we're gonna get there.

[Chris]

We're gonna get there. Hawk. Let's see. We can do this fairly quickly. We match on two movies.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yes. And I put I matched at number four, so we could be cute with our lists.

[Chris]

What do you think makes him a good actor?

[Amanda Dobbins]

There is a. I don't know. He's just so cool. Honestly, there were a bunch of different things that I was trying to describe it. He's very. He's very calm and he sits back, but also really emotionally open. There's a physicality to him. I don't know. I mean, I saw him in Reality Bites when I was, like, 11, and I was like, that's it. That's what's gonna haunt me for the next 35 years of my life.

[Chris]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think he has changed a lot as a performer over the years. I do think that he was really puppy dog as a kid. And in one of your picks.

[Ethan Hawke]

Sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And had this kind of, like, G. Williker's kind of anxiousness to him as a performer. And then he really almost does the exact opposite in his 20s, where he pulls back, way back. He's cooler than cool when he's in. Is it Hamlet, the modern adaptation of Hamlet in Reality Bites? Of course, in a lot of those 90s performances. And then in the 2000s, I feel like he goes back the other way. He goes back to this. He has a kind of jitteriness to him in Training Day, where you can.

[Richard Linklater]

Right.

[Chris]

On the surface, you can feel this is a person who's having a hard time and he's not. Nothing is settled.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And he. The being able to toggle between those two energies is very cool.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I. I do kind of think, like, for us, it's just an emotional register over time and, you know, an up and down that I recognize, you know, of being, like, fairly earnest in your teens. And then what I thought was cool was also what he was trying to be. I have just kind of watched him go through the phases of life about five years ahead of myself and feel about them the same way that I do.

[Chris]

That's exactly what. He's somebody that it's very easy to map your own experiences onto because he's made a bunch of movies about going through those experiences. And obviously the before trilogy is signature in that, but a lot of his movies are like that. So he's a special guy. He's a special actor and.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And one of the great podcast guests. So I'm very excited to hear your.

[Chris]

He's just an awesome talker. You know, he just. He's read a lot and seen a lot, and he loves music, and he's just into figuring it out and. And is very eloquent in conveying how he feels. So I. Hopefully people will enjoy that conversation before we get to it. Do your five and I'll do my five.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I put Dead Poets at five, which is just how I remember probably the first time I saw him. And also, you know, that openness that I do think characterizes all of his work except for the twenties, when he's his twenties, when he's trying to be an asshole. I put blue moon at 4, because you also have blue moon at 4. I do, and I just. It's pretty. It's extraordinary. And him trying something different, which is cool. Boyhood at three. Boyhood. Not my favorite link later, but it is as much a study of. I mean, it is a study of Ethan Hawke over time and what they are doing together.

[Chris]

And I've not seen Divorced dad energy represented so clearly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

And what Hawk is doing, like, in terms of vulnerability and openness and also anger. You know, it's the full gamut of what he can do over time. It is that, like, career that we've been talking about.

[Chris]

Him picking up Eller Coltrane at the house in his muscle car is like, gives me sad chills.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. Two is Reality Bites.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I've seen it forever.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Great film. And then number one, Before Sunset.

[Chris]

Yeah, I know. You go by and you go by.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I know.

[Chris]

My number five is Training Day, which is. He's been very good over the years at toggling between mainstream Hollywood movies and projects that light him up that are a little smaller. He obviously also loves the theater. Trainy Day is like the perfect fusion of the two disciplines that he is interested in, where it's like, it's a big time Hollywood crime movie opposite Denzel, but they both get to do really interesting work as actors in it. And I would argue that we would not think about that Denzel performance in the same way if he was opposite a lesser actor.

[Amanda Dobbins]

For sure.

[Chris]

Because I think that movie is pretty well written, but not really that well written. And it's pretty well directed, but not that well directed. But you're there for those two guys exploding and some other actors on the periphery as well. But those two guys specifically bouncing off of each other. I also had Bloom Moon at 4. I agree with everything that you said. I have before. The devil knows you're dead at three, the Lumet crime movie. Ethan mentioned Philip Seymour Hoffman during our conversation. They're magic. Opposite each other as two very different, but very similar brothers. Before Sunset is number two for me. Number one is first reform.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Sure. It's first reform season.

[Chris]

Boy, it sure is. Although Pope Leo, the 14th Pope Leo, I mean, he's really. He's coming through for cinema. Sure.

[Amanda Dobbins]

It's beautiful.

[Chris]

Yeah. What if I went back to the church?

[Amanda Dobbins]

We'll talk about that. There's another movie where we can talk about it.

[Chris]

Why not now? What if I rejoin the church? Because Leo hosted a great number of filmmakers at the Vatican. Greta Gerwig was there. Yeah. You know, Spike Lee was there.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I mean, I appreciate all that. He's doing the Pope. Yeah. For cinema.

[Chris]

You should go to the movie theater to see films. You know who else says that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

You. Yeah, and me, too.

[Chris]

Yeah. Should I be the next Pope?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah. I think you do a really good job.

[Chris]

I think I've earned it.

[Amanda Dobbins]

You know, you have the outfit already from our Oscar show, so that's good.

[Chris]

And I. Conclave taught me how all that stuff works. So I'll be really good at winning that race. But first or formed, Paul Schrader also came up when I was talking with Ethan. Man, that movie, I should have fought for. For 25. For 25. That movie fucked me up. I love that movie. And that movie is also so on the money. About how everything feels right now.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So on the money. And Ethan Hawke again is at the center of it as a desperate person who's lost hope and can do that just as well as he can do Lorenz Hart. So he's a wonderful actor. Any closing thoughts?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm excited to hear you talk to the two of them.

[Chris]

Okay, let's go to my conversation with Ethan Hawke and Richard Linklater. Richard Linklater and Ethan Hawke back on the show. Here to talk about Blue Moon. Guys, it's been 12 years since you made a film together. I was thinking, stunned to learn that when I was reading up on your long term collaboration, was there anything that came up in the inter 10 since boyhood?

[Richard Linklater]

Well, 14. That came out in 14.

[Chris]

Did it?

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Richard Linklater]

But we shot this in 24, so. Yeah, so there was a 10 year gap of us rolling camera.

[Chris]

Was there.

[Ethan Hawke]

We were in a horrible fight.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

Sometimes I didn't speak for what, nine?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

He has these temper tantrums, then he comes and he apologizes, he falls off.

[Richard Linklater]

The wagon and it's a real thing.

[Chris]

I just have to go at some point. Yeah. This is an art reflecting life situation.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

Did you. Were there any other things that you were thinking about doing in that time? Like why the break?

[Ethan Hawke]

God, I hope so.

[Amanda Dobbins]

10 years.

[Ethan Hawke]

We better have thought of something to do.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, we're always throwing around things. Well, this was. Blue Moon was in the works before.

[Ethan Hawke]

He gave me the script to Blue Moon, before we finished.

[Richard Linklater]

Boy, I mean, like in 2012.

[Chris]

No kidding.

[Ethan Hawke]

Am I close enough to the microphone?

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, yeah, sounds good.

[Ethan Hawke]

Okay.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, this was something been kind of rolling around in our heads for a long time. And we would get together in New York usually because Robert lives. He's in the area, Ethan's there, I would be there and we'd just kind of do a table read and talk about it more. And just kind of working with Robert over the years on the script.

[Ethan Hawke]

In fact, I was so impressed with Robert's patience with our methodology, you know, because we really enjoy doing readings, talking about it, thinking about it, because, you know, you never get a second chance. It's not like a painting where you can do one version of it and then a year later try it again. It's like we were gonna have one shot to make it right.

[Richard Linklater]

So we took our soul. Like we were building up to something and it's such a minimum. We shot it in 15 days. It's a no budget movie, all that stuff. And yet it was. We treated it over these years as some kind of really thing that we would just have to perfect and it would be hard to do.

[Chris]

How did you know it was the right time to do it?

[Ethan Hawke]

I knew because he said so.

[Chris]

How did you know?

[Richard Linklater]

Ethan tells these jokes about when he first started as like, well, you're too young, you're too tall. It took Ethan all those years to lose the height.

[Ethan Hawke]

Actually about an inch a year.

[Chris]

Inch a year. Yeah. We finally got there.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah.

[Chris]

It's funny, though, because you were 10 years ago around the right age for Lorenz Hart, but maybe didn't look. You weren't ready to look the way that he looked at that time in his life.

[Richard Linklater]

Well, 54 is 47 back then or whatever.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. There was some. I mean, I don't. That's a very simplistic way of looking at it that. We also knew that the thing about a movie like this is the Bullseye is extremely small. And if you don't hit it exact. If you don't penetrate the exact bullseye, this movie's not really even a movie. It has to. For it to ring the bell, you know, for it to vibrate and sound right. We knew it had to be just right. And so we would do these readings and Robert. It's never like we did a reading and thought, okay, it's ready to go. We thought, oh, this is a great idea. What is it? And then Robert would have some ideas and he would go back and Rick and we would all talk and then. But there was no time pressure. So it'd be like six months later. Robert would send a new draft and we wouldn't read it aloud again until we were all in the same city.

[Richard Linklater]

Again, which might be a year and a half.

[Ethan Hawke]

There goes another year, you know, and then we would do it in the same conversation would take place and certain missteps would happen and scenes came and.

[Richard Linklater]

Go, came and went. Yeah, you know, we. We were breaking. We were just kind of. It was getting more minimal.

[Ethan Hawke]

And the last. The last reading we did was really fantastic. We were at my house and I remember it was over and everybody left and we both kind of were like, wow, it's.

[Chris]

We're ready.

[Ethan Hawke]

This is the time.

[Chris]

It was great.

[Richard Linklater]

I felt, okay, I'm ready to go into rehearsals and, like, we're shooting in, you know, a month. Yeah, that would be. I think we're ready to get. We were that close.

[Ethan Hawke]

And in the meantime, I had gotten a lot older and. And also, strangely, felt more ready to try a lot of the Parts that I've done in my life are variations on something you might call close to my own identity. And this was a farther push out. But I really felt I loved Larry. And I felt like I'd grown up with people like Larry my whole life in the theater. This movie is intimate with those men. And so I really, really wanted to do it badly. And I really believed that we could do it and do it well. And now I feel after so many years of every. You know, it's like a to do list in your brain that you have. And Blue Moon was always there. We gotta make that. We've gotta make that.

[Richard Linklater]

Check that one off.

[Ethan Hawke]

I can't believe we've checked that one off.

[Richard Linklater]

I still with Margaret last night. I was like, wow, it's a couple years ago. We were sitting there with her. We got all of our. We went to cast Elizabeth. I was like, God, I wonder if Margaret Qualley would. And sure enough, she met with us. Really liked the part. Totally got it. It was years ago. We said, well, we got to get Cannavale to play.

[Ethan Hawke]

When we. When we were first talking about. We're like, you know, who should be the bartenders?

[Chris]

Bobby.

[Ethan Hawke]

Bobby would be amazing.

[Richard Linklater]

And then. But, you know, actors availability and all that. We just got lucky. Everybody was. And then Andrew Scott came aboard. That was the. Really, the. The crucial piece, the last piece.

[Chris]

Are there like 10 or 12 other projects like this for both of you guys, where you're like, we're still. We're checking boxes. We have things that we know we want to do.

[Ethan Hawke]

10, 12 is a lot, but there's certainly a bunch of. Yeah, interesting, because sometimes. Sometimes the universe isn't.

[Richard Linklater]

Never on your time schedule, that's for sure.

[Ethan Hawke]

A project like this, we need the right partners to come through to help finance it. Nobody's doing this movie because they think they're going to make a quick fortune. They have to kind of believe in it. And we have several projects like that. Unfortunately, none of our projects seem to have their finger on the pulse of what America really wants to be watching. But we've had some that have never gotten made and some that might still.

[Chris]

Since you guys hadn't been on set together in a long time, had either of you changed in any way? Was there anything that was different about actually making a movie 10 years later?

[Richard Linklater]

I wouldn't say either of us had changed in any way that affected anything. It's just the demands of this particular film required us to be different. You know, it was a different vibe.

[Chris]

I want to Hear my.

[Richard Linklater]

The challenge was such that. Well, I knew it. Even in the readings we were doing. I was like, I look at Ethan reading it a little as Ethan. I was like, oh, he doesn't know what he's in for. This is all gonna go away. You know, he would put an emphasis on something and then. So I knew this day was coming when we had to sit down and like really get into this. And I was like, okay.

[Ethan Hawke]

And that was very difficult.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, it was like, this all has to go away. That's a masculine, confident Ethan gesture from a guy who's six feet tall and, you know, used to get laid a lot. See, Larry has none of that.

[Ethan Hawke]

I can feel that now. That was the biggest difference in the 10 years.

[Chris]

But it actually, it's.

[Ethan Hawke]

He's not lying. I didn't realize that and Rick did. But this is the vow. It's a weird razor's edge to walk when. We all love the idea of long term collaborations, but it's very hard not to get sick of your friends. It's very hard not to tire them. And sometimes it's very hard to be honest with your friends, you know, because it feels like things are at stake. It's not just a movie like Rick and I can't go make Blue Moon. I can't let him down or disappoint him or have a fight with him and walk away from the movie. I'd be walking away from a 30 year collaboration. It's bigger than one job. And Rick was really giving me the opportunity to be the actor that he knew as a young person I dreamed of being. He knows who my heroes are. He knows the kind of work that I find significant and important. And he was giving me that opportunity, but it wasn't going to happen just by showing up. You know, all the things that people like to talk about, you know, whether you're talking about movies where people gain weight or lose weight, or joking about the height or hair, shaving head or you know, gestures, voice, all that stuff is meaningless if it doesn't unlock something true and something with soul to it. All those details are things that will ruin the movie if we don't get it right. But they won't actually give the movie the heart and soul to make it worth your time to watch. So this one had so many things we had to work on to like the before trilogy, for example. I'm being asked to play a certain position on a team and this movie was like, I was in the same team, but I was playing a different position. Than I'm normally asked to play, if that makes sense.

[Chris]

Can you give. Can you give me the literal position change that you. That you made so that we can even deepen this metaphor? Like, are you moving from quarterback to tailback, or are you moving from tailback to right back quarterback to waterboy?

[Richard Linklater]

In the masculine.

[Ethan Hawke]

In the tough guy?

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

I mean, but it's a very colorful water boy. A really charming, charming water boy. I think the better analogy might be a band. And I used to play rhythm guitar, and now I'm being asked to play the violin. You know, it's like, we're like. And the band leader's the same. So a lot of. When you're on a link letter set, there's. I think it would. If you think about your oldest friends, have they changed? I venture to say most of us. Not that much.

[Chris]

It might be imperceptible. They may have, but you can't see it.

[Ethan Hawke]

Our sense of humor is the same. We're still making each other laugh with jokes that happened that are citing things that happened 30 years ago. And I still laugh. And we still find the same. I know when I'm reading something, whether Rick will like it or not, you know, I'll come across. You know, we know. I. Even the other day, I was like. I had this really kind of crisis moment in my brain. Something that was really profoundly depressing me. And I went for a walk, and I just imagined talking to Rick, and I felt a lot better. I didn't actually need to talk to Man. I'd say this, and he'd say, why? Why are you going that direction?

[Chris]

Like, oh, yeah, he's right.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

It's funny you say that, though. So Glen Powell was on one of our shows last week, and on the show, he said he was paying you a compliment. And he said Rick was the hardest director on me in terms of performance. He was the person who was the most direct about what I was doing and whether it was working or not. And that some artists are a little bit uncomfortable giving that feedback that you're talking about. Do you think it's even more harsh with Ethan? And how do you even communicate that?

[Richard Linklater]

Well, it was on this time. I try to give specific directions when it comes to performance. I think that's the best you can do, not just like, oh, go again and do better. You know, it's like, no playable notes.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

Something that is actually we. We rehearsed this. We worked on it for a long time. We had knew what we were going for. But this was just different. And we knew what arena we were stepping into. This was just going to be much more rigorous. And I think had we not had each other's back for 30 years and the other films, we had a trust. You know, I saw my friend working to his absolute limit. And, you know, this is built around his ability to deliver what the film had to. You know, Ethan has to peel off these seven page monologues. We have 15 days to shoot the movie. I knew we could do that. We had done versions of that before. But then this physical thing, I just. It was a deductive process. Ethan had to disappear. You know, so that was the naggy. I was a naggy. Like, you know, that thing again, like it would have been. I think, because we had this communication shorthand. It helped that it was less confrontational, but it was. It was exhausting, kind of. It really was. This was. But we loved it. It was a joy. We were so happy to have the opportunity to finally make this film. But within that, it's like, holy crap, this is. But we knew that's what we were heading into. But at the end it was like, oh, we did it.

[Ethan Hawke]

You know, the thing that Rick's talking about, which is really, really, truly remarkable, I think, is that he didn't. It wouldn't be an honor and it wouldn't be fun if we didn't do our absolute best. And so he has to be discerning with somebody that he knows really well. He's also spent 30 years of me complaining about directors. Right. And soon as I know you don't like this, but I have to, I have. If I don't say this right now, we cannot return to this moment. This is not as good as it needs to be. And I have to be humble enough to hear it and, and not lose my confidence, you know, and that's, That's. And one of the things that I think what Glenn is talking about perhaps is that Rick can. Because Rick's an athlete. Rick can be extremely direct without being malicious. There's no. Sometimes you sense in directors or producers a desire to. Oh, to be crass, to pee on your shoulders or something, just to have dominance. And that creates an atmosphere of competitiveness, aggression. Rick is not Rick. You genuinely feel he wants you to excel. And so. And you know, he doesn't like being mean or critical. So if he's. I would have to do this. I remember when I was directing Maya, I had to explain. Listen, obviously I want to say, great job.

[Richard Linklater]

I have every incentive in the world.

[Ethan Hawke]

That is what I want to say, but. But I can't yet. So don't. I'm not being mean. I'm not telling you you're doing something wrong. I'm telling you it can be better. And it's not as good as I know it needs to be to be before we're done today. And so there's. There's that, but that doesn't mean it wasn't. But I do think it's so important. I remember. I remember this. It pops in my brain about. He's standing on a beach somewhere, and they. They're asking John Lennon, before he died, like, would you ever play with Paul McCartney again? And he says, play what? It's like, I definitely would.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah. Like, if.

[Ethan Hawke]

If. But it's. It's what? And it's not that we can be friends every day of the year. What do we want to make together? And we wanted to make this together. Well, it has to be the best movie he can see and has to, like. We have to actually work. That's what I felt. What John was saying was like. I call him John. Yeah. But I think what he. I always liked that answer because you could see in the answer that if there was a cool idea, he would jump on it. But it wasn't just to be together. The point can't be that we're, like, together. Then you're making Cannonball Run 5.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, well.

[Ethan Hawke]

Which is a great film.

[Chris]

We would watch your version of Cannonball 5. So I think I understand why you wanted to do this and why you loved Larry, but why did you want to tell this story?

[Richard Linklater]

Well, those same reasons. I love Lauren's heart. You know, I've been a big fan all these years, since my twenties. When I discovered his music, I would say. And when Robert told me he was writing a story about him, because I knew a little bit about his life, kind of the. You know, a little bit of the tragedy. And Rogers moved on, and he was a beloved character. You know, if you ask anyone. Okay, Rogers, Hart, or Hammerstein. Almost everyone says Hart as the lyrics, I think.

[Ethan Hawke]

Musicians. Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah. But the shows, you got to go with Hammerstein. Those are still performed. It's a different era. Different era, different time. But there's something endearing about Hart and so just his life. And what I read in the script is something that we never isn't expressed much or talked about in artistic world circles, but it's kind of that an artist would have an expiration date that you could be left behind not only by your Collaborators. But by the times, it kind of lingers in your mind. It's something kind of sad and poignant, but like an athlete's career comes to an end just biologically. You know, no ballerina or gymnast or even ball player thinks they're going to be playing at 60 or 50 or, you know, but every artist thinks, yeah, no, I love this. I'm going to do this forever. And in certain arts, particularly performing arts, film, theater, it can sort of be taken away from you. They can just not fund you. You can fall out of vogue. You know, you can. Yeah, you need that support. So it was. I always. When I first read what Robert sent me, I said, oh, this is like the sad little howl into the night by an artist being left behind, you know, he said that to me the.

[Ethan Hawke]

First time on the phone. We were talking about it.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, it's a funny, witty, but it was kind of like, oh, that's such an interesting for a movie to be about a guy who's kind of at the end. He even says it in the movie in different ways.

[Ethan Hawke]

It's like forgotten but not gone.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, that was my tagline.

[Chris]

Yeah. So I don't know, I just loved it. It was Portrait of Art.

[Richard Linklater]

And that time, you know, it's such a fascinating little moment in musical theater history. I love that period. I love all the music. So it's hard to say what makes you want to make a movie, but it definitely got into me, this character. And also the utter challenge on how to make it work. Can this even be a movie? One room. Is that a movie? Most would say no, and people did say no for a long time, but we got it made. It's a little cinematic challenge, but really a storytelling. It's hard to say what makes you want to tell a particular story.

[Chris]

I have some questions about how you did it. The single location idea. But before that, it definitely does feel like a second half of your life movie. And I feel like it will resonate more deeply with people who are like, am I at the end of this or is the end coming closer? And obviously the film sets that up too, for hard times.

[Richard Linklater]

The film itself is a final act.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yes, but Larry Hart didn't make the transition into the second half of his life. You know, I see that with some of my friends. You know, you have to keep growing and you have to keep changing and adapting and maintain your curiosity and maintain your health and these things that require a certain vigilance to weather the vicissitudes of life, you know. And Larry didn't make that turn. And I do think that that's haunting to people like us who dream of doing this at 80. And my brain is. Since I was young, my brain is, why, you know, why is Stoppard so great in his 80s? Why is, you know, why is this. Why is Dylan still making relevant music?

[Richard Linklater]

Why.

[Ethan Hawke]

What happened to so many? Why did they lose? Why did this filmmaker. Why is first three movies amazing? What. What is it? And is it them? Is it their instrument? Or is it the times losing interest? And my brain is fascinated by that.

[Richard Linklater]

Or it's the old personal demons. We're watching an alcoholic kind of put himself on the bench, that's for sure. Let's not forget that. So, yeah, a lot of the people you go, what happened? It's like they didn't help themselves.

[Chris]

Do you have any fears about the time running out or not being able to do all the things that you want to do?

[Richard Linklater]

I don't.

[Chris]

Illogically. So do you?

[Richard Linklater]

Well, I mean, I definitely feel like I'm. I'm motivated to just keep doing what I'm doing. But.

[Ethan Hawke]

But one of the other things is that you don't give the responsibility of your own creativity to anybody else.

[Richard Linklater]

Right.

[Ethan Hawke]

Meaning the industry could very well just totally dismiss both of us at the.

[Richard Linklater]

I feel like it has, you know. Yeah, that's not.

[Ethan Hawke]

But it wouldn't stop you from making things. It would never. I mean, I remember somebody said that about Paul Schrader. If you put him in jail, he'd come out with a movie, he would riot. And that's the way I feel about Rick. It's like not. That's not gonna. You don't even need the world to care you're going to do it. And I always feel if you left me alone, I would do something. I don't. I don't put that much weight on people's responses to the work. You know, obviously I love a compliment. I love it and I live for it, but it's not my main motivator.

[Richard Linklater]

I mean, that really defines our 30 plus year collaboration. It's like we both are excited. You know, we always have stories we're trying to tell, characters we love, we're exchanging ideas. Some things become a potential movie, you know, others don't. But yeah, and you know, we're just always kind of did an interview the.

[Ethan Hawke]

Other day with somebody who's a lot younger than, than you and I are and, and he said what was. Must have been so hard for the fans of Before Sunrise to wait nine years for the Next one.

[Chris]

I was like, there weren't any fans.

[Ethan Hawke]

Wait.

[Richard Linklater]

No one wanted to see people that.

[Ethan Hawke]

Wanted that sequel where you and I. Julius.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

Martin Shafer.

[Chris]

Yeah. There was about five people on the planet.

[Ethan Hawke]

You could.

[Richard Linklater]

Planet Earth.

[Ethan Hawke]

You couldn't register like, wait, oh, then why was there a sequel? Because we really like ourselves. Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

Now that was our tagline. The least successful film to ever spawn.

[Chris]

A sequel proved to be a smart move though, in retrospect. The other movie that I was thinking about is tape and the idea of a single location and a smaller cast and you know, that's. It's been a long time since that movie and the like the challenge of that movie too.

[Ethan Hawke]

To your question about how have we changed? Not much.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, we're.

[Chris]

No problem.

[Richard Linklater]

Real time. Let's do it.

[Ethan Hawke]

This film was a lot more challenging. It's period the verbiage, the, the ideas at play. But we learned a tremendous amount on tape that I think was really valuable for this movie.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah. Not that we did that for any other reason than to do that movie. But years later it's like, oh, this is kind of our bigger version of that. It's good to have gone through that too because that's. That from a production standpoint is completely reliant on the actors being able to. Because we shot that in six days. We shot this in a whopping 15 days. So it's completely reliant on the actors being able to just kind of us be able to shoot for seven minutes straight. And you know, I have two cameras and that's just kind of the technical. We can't be fumbling around figuring out what we're doing. We have to shoot all day and I have to get long stretches of dialogue. And we can do as many takes as we need, but it has to start off pretty close to perfect.

[Ethan Hawke]

But your desire, interest and curiosity to rehearse. Meaning some directors get really. Get bored without a camera in their hand. They just. But, but Rick can work for a long time before he picks up the camera and. And work. And that's what makes doing 7 minute, 11 minute, 14 minute, 17 minute takes possible. Because we've, we've talked about and worked on the nuances of the performance, the ins and outs of where the pauses are, where the rests are, when it needs to speed up, when it needs to slow down. It's like what's so thrilling about as an actor is you're a part of the filmmaking process because he's. Your relationship with Sandra, his editor, is amazing and they do amazing work Together. But we're invited into that process of like, he would like to edit the movie based on what the best cut is not to edit around your performance.

[Richard Linklater]

You know, like, yeah, yeah. I never feel like I'm constructing it in post or we're putting anything together. It has to work on the day. It's. It's always self evident right in front of us, so. And I just enjoy that collaboration too, because you find everything. I can't imagine making a movie where you just start. Plus, I'm nervous with the crew standing around while we create and while we feel indulgent.

[Ethan Hawke]

I know.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah. Like, we have to talk intimately about every little thing. And you find so much. You know, even it's amazing. What on the page doesn't really. It works on the page and then in the room, it just doesn't work because it's not real. You know, we're all looking at each other like, oh, we're doing. This is a big opening night party. What's missing? It's like, oh, all the interruptions.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

Wasn't really in the script.

[Chris]

All the people.

[Richard Linklater]

Hey, Dick, great show. You know, you can't talk 45 seconds to someone at your own opening and someone else wasn't even in there at all. Like, yeah, what's not working? So we kind of.

[Ethan Hawke]

Why? And that reminded me of like, one of my favorite things about Philip Seymour Hoffman is he would often stop in rehearsal and go, why? Is this fake?

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, what's wrong?

[Ethan Hawke]

What is it? Is it the line? Is it the. Is it the first thing?

[Richard Linklater]

You have to realize what's not.

[Ethan Hawke]

It's just. It's like he could smell something. Doesn't smell right. Is it the way I'm sitting? Is it the costume? Is it the set? Should we be standing? Should we be further apart? Or is it the dialogue? Is it, you know, am I not in the right emotional space? And that's where good things happen. When you sniff that out and then get rid of it.

[Chris]

I wanted to ask you something about your performance. So a lot of it seems like Hart's point of view, artistry is born of this self hatred or this sense of his own maybe ugliness. And you have to transform physically in the film, but I suspect that maybe you don't have the same relationship to your own appearance. You've been a star for a long time and that's a very difficult place to get to mentally of, like, that level of like.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah.

[Chris]

That self hatred, you know, self loathing.

[Richard Linklater]

For your own body. Because, well, no one's Ever noticed no one's ever wanted you. That was the. We talked about that you don't understand. Like, no one has ever wanted to be with you.

[Chris]

Right.

[Richard Linklater]

For your. For your body. You have this incredible wit, mind, and people love you in a certain way.

[Ethan Hawke]

But not that way.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah. So that's a huge leap.

[Ethan Hawke]

One of the things we laughed about was. And this was the real challenge for me is there's a great story Mike Nichols would tell about Redford. Really wanted to be in the Graduate. You remember this story? And Redford called him up and said, look, I really like this script. And Mike said, well, I love your work, but let me ask you a question. You know that feeling when, like, you meet a girl and you ask for her number and she doesn't want to give it to you? And Red goes, what do you mean? And he goes, that's exactly why I can't cast you.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

You know, and. And. But I'm at a place in my life where one of the things that acting has taught me is that our experiences in life are not nearly as unique as we think they are and that we have the capability to understand each other. And our. Our powers of empathy are. Are very strong. And that I do know. I do not know what it's like to have rejection every day. I know what rejection feels like, and I can imagine what that would be like. I've been punched in the face. I haven't been punched in the face 90 times in the same day. Larry Hart has. But I can have empathy for that and I can embody that. And that is part of the wonderful. Part of my job is putting on other people's clothes, looking through another keyhole at life. And the powers, our imaginative powers are so, so powerful. And you can. And if things in a film, when Bobby's treating me a certain way and Margaret's treating me a certain way and the dialogue is right, and there's this. The yeast starts to rise and there's this thing that starts to happen that it can have the stuff of magic to it where you really can. I really felt for him, and I definitely understand the feeling of being misunderstood and trying to express yourself and being rejected and to try to pour that into the performance and make that real. I don't know. I just really wanted to do it. And.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

Anybody. Any artists, actors in particular? I think finding a connection with someone is. That's never the problem. I think we're all got our antennas out there and in this case, a little rejection. Who hasn't Been rejected. And a little bit of that goes a long way. And so you look to someone and it's like, oh, their whole life. You know, we all grow up with people, or we see someone who have certain things about them that it's like, oh, wow, what would that be like? An artist goes through the whole life going, what would that be like? Oh, my God. That's a whole nother world. That's a whole nother thing. It was fun to see you once you were five feet tall, looking up at everybody.

[Ethan Hawke]

You're like, holy crap.

[Richard Linklater]

It's a different world when you're looking up at the world and you're not.

[Ethan Hawke]

And the world is so highest. It's amazing.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah. I mean, I could just see it come over him. It was like, oh, yeah.

[Chris]

Try to not let that get in the way. I'm curious, Rick, for you this year, two films set in the past, Two films about artists. You've done things like this before. You mentioned Robert wrote the book that me and Orson Welles is based on. You've been in these worlds before, but what does that indicate to you about where you're at in your life, that these are the things that are so compelling to you?

[Richard Linklater]

Well, these were two longstanding, long gestating projects that they just happened to come. I shot them back to back, and they kind of came out near the same time. But it were just two stories I really wanted to tell. Two places in history I really wanted to drop back in on. And I think I've done that a number of times, not only in a nonfiction way, but even in the fictional worlds I've created. Like, even if it's a college or high school comedy I've done, I'm doing the same thing. I'm dropping a camera back into a moment in time, saying, this is what it was like, and it's fun to do that at that moment in time is my own life. But it's even more fun to drop it in to a moment before I was born and imagining, oh, what it must have felt like. Like, to me, that's really magical and fun. The kind of creative, constructive element of that, to put that together historically. And so, yeah, and with nouveau vague, just the filmmaking aspect of that, the cinephile heaven that that represented to me. So that was fun. I mean, these films are clearly in some kind of conversation with each other. You know, Blue Moon's the end of a artistic career. Nouvel Vog's the beginning of one. But, you know, portraits are two. Two amazing 20th century artists. That's for sure. So, I don't know.

[Chris]

I want to ask you a big open ended question about this.

[Richard Linklater]

Okay.

[Chris]

Yeah. So I was thinking about this idea that you're suggesting, which is that Blue Moon's about the end of something. Nouvelle Vox is about the beginning of something. I think among a lot of film fans there's a concern that we're at the end of something or maybe something already ended and not everyone knows.

[Richard Linklater]

Guess what?

[Ethan Hawke]

The great news about that is if they're right, every departure is an arrival. So no sooner does something end than invariably something else has to begin. I feel really strongly that something. I feel this, and maybe it's just my nature, but with the ways in which things are moving right now, it's like, oh, you know what's about to happen? Things are about to get really exciting. I think with this thing about. I think I see a lot of the young. I have a lot of young people in my life and I see them getting absolutely sick of manipulated images, of stupidity, of they're getting tired of short attention span theater. It's not like we're going to rebel from a lot of what's happening. I think politically, emotionally, artistically, we all operate in a interconnective community way. You know, like the. It was funny, I got to see. There was. Scorsese produced a documentary, he was giving a talk back and he was talking about the early period of his career and how he just thought, oh God, everybody's overusing the word masterpiece. Every damn movie is a masterpiece. And he's like, it was. I was living through this amazing 10 years.

[Richard Linklater]

Wow.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah. Bergman, Godard, you know, just, you know, Hal Ashby's like, actually, these are friends. It was. These were phenomenal films. And that happens because the collective thing is happening and not just with the artistic community, with the audiences. You know, the audiences have to care about David Bowie. They have to think that's cool. They have to be interested in John Cage, they have to be interested in Frank Zappa, they have to be interested in Miles Davis, they have to be like. And that makes the money. People want to make more of it, you know, and there's this. So we operate together, you know, And I do feel there more and more as we kind of get depleted. I think what you're talking about is kind of an exhale. But the good news about that is there's about to be a giant inhale. And I do feel it coming. I feel it politically too.

[Chris]

Do you feel that?

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, I mean, I just know film history. Let's just talk about film, because I think that was your. Like, is it over? Do films matter in the culture and all that stuff. And we've always been under existential threat. You know, if you really look at the last 70 years, it's always. There's threats. And I think whenever technology and art and commerce intertwined, there's a lot of jobs threatened. There's a lot of challenges always. So it has our little amygdalas going all the time. You know, it was like, tv. Oh, that's the end of that. That's the end of that. Oh, you know, video is going to kill. You know, so it's always been that. But, you know, we're.

[Chris]

There's a.

[Richard Linklater]

There's a bigger threat in the world, and it could be the thing that interrupts what you're talking about, the audience and the thing and what people want. We have an adversary now that is coming after our attention and consciousness in a way that we hasn't before. So I think that's the great interrupter. That's what it's up to each individual to kind of stifle that and rebel against the outlaw.

[Chris]

Yeah, you got to save yourself.

[Richard Linklater]

You got to admit you're addicted. We just need a group session, you know, like, no, you have to put that down. You have to. But I'm seeing it a lot. You know, I'm a film society in Austin. I saw these young people just when you thought, oh, they grew up watching, you know, YouTube and TikTok. Audiences full at the theater of young people in their 20s really discovering movies, the history movies, current movies, out in the lobby, talking about them, having a drink with friends, community. So each individual has to kind of save themselves by participating in community and humanity and art and giving a shit and realizing, oh, that's a fun life. Wherever you fall in the spectrum of art or just appreciator of art or consumer, just, no, it's more fun to be engaged with art and other people and, you know, so that's how you save your own soul. But there is an opposition. There is an enemy out there who wants something else from you.

[Ethan Hawke]

If I can, I'll risk telling a personal story. I hope you don't mind, which is. That was one of the best things that happened to me this year, is we were at the Telluride Film Festival, and we went on a long hike with my kids, and my two daughters were working Rick over in front of the walk, complaining that their mother and father were trying to limit their screen time and asking, you know that they thought it would be better that they learned control over their own. It's not that they thought that I should just have unlimited screen time, but they thought, we need to be able to monitor ourselves. We need permission to do this. And Rick said, well, you know, that's an interesting point, but the real goal, I'm paraphrasing, but you said something like this, which was. Is to be your own best friend. And that phone is getting in the way of you being your own best friend. Because if you're your own best friend, then your best friend's always with you. And this algorithm and this thing is this giant distraction.

[Richard Linklater]

You have to follow your own instincts.

[Ethan Hawke]

Your own instincts.

[Richard Linklater]

And what led to that?

[Ethan Hawke]

You're thinking about. You were talking about. You were telling Clementine about passing through that space of boredom that feels uncomfortable. It's this liminal space of what the world calls boredom. And when you come through it, oh, hours can disappear. And it's your own mind. It's your own mind that leads you to these beautiful thoughts and beautiful things. And now you're in control of where your mind is going, not an algorithm that's trying to sell you something, right? And then you, when you're through that space, there's your best friend right over there. Just pass through that doorway. It takes but a second, you know, and it really had a big impact on them. And I think that's the true adversary.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, that used to be the thing, finding yourself, that was the cliche for the last several generations. The hippies were like, I'm going to find myself. Well, you're not going to find yourself today. That's not. You're going to find yourself, you know, being delivered to advertisers. That's always been the thing. It used to be via TV and radio. Now it's this thing that's attached to you. So it's more time to be more vigilant than ever. But, yeah, that always needs to be in the air.

[Chris]

I have one more layer for that question. So one thing I found, maybe 10 years ago, when we would have a conversation like this, we would point it at your kids, my kid, younger generations having this problem. I always think of you as one of the great daydreamer filmmakers. I can see you in a room coming up with an idea, just sitting there quietly, but I find that I am more distracted than ever. I don't know if you're more distracted. Like, I'm finding it harder to just sit there quietly.

[Ethan Hawke]

I'm enjoying this conversation. As further Ammunition to give me the energy.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

I was among my friends. I was one of the last to give in to a cell phone. Or, like, people would text me and.

[Chris]

I would be like, why?

[Ethan Hawke]

What are you even doing?

[Richard Linklater]

I'm never gonna send a text. I'm never gonna go. I'm never gonna do that.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah. I remember saying to a friend, a second, I know cell phones are catching on in la. That's. That's never going to fly in New York. What was that talking about, you know, And. And I feel one of the great joys of people talk, like the amount of verbiage I had to learn for Blue Moon, for example. And it was one of the things I remember most about the summer was the fact that I didn't look at my phone hardly at all because I would. I had too much work to do.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah.

[Chris]

But.

[Ethan Hawke]

Oh, the space in my memory it occupies now of just being in my dressing room, you know, I would roll the set, make some texts in the car, going over there, set the phone down, change, leave it in there. And I wouldn't pick it up till we wrapped, you know, and drive home. I'd look at it. But the day actually felt so much more expansive without looking at it. You don't realize how it's contracting your brain. And I know it's boring. We're all thinking the same thing. But I think we do need to give each other permission to rebel.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

But no, you feel it. Do I have the patience like I used to, to lay around and read all day? It's like, no. What's this little thing in me that's kind of jumpy, a little irritated? Little. Now I'm going to get up and I'm going to check the news feed.

[Chris]

That's the number one thing I'm struggling with at this stage is like, I would roll through 50 books a year, and now if it's 10, it's shocking. And that's a huge change.

[Richard Linklater]

Huge.

[Ethan Hawke]

Huge. Well, it's really, really impacting society. I mean, when you think about, I mean, even, you know, a literary star. We haven't had a literary star like we used to have, you know, because literature is not the way that we're communicating, and that's a huge loss. You know, I just read Marilynne Robinson's Housekeeping, it's an old book, the other day, and I was like, it felt to read literary fiction again. It literally felt like, oh.

[Richard Linklater]

Oh, yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, there you are. There's my true. Like, because she was speaking to me in a way that I. That made my soul feel like it mattered, that my experiences are part of a collective experience that actually is significant. And what I think about a rainstorm and what I think about my daughter and what I think about actually has some substantive value. Like. And I was like, all right, nobody's talking to me in this way. There's great paragraphs I'd have to read three times. And the third time I read it, I was like, oh, so glad I read it the third time. It was worth it. The power of the language, power of the ideas were not easily understood, and they were better because of it.

[Richard Linklater]

That was the delivery system. It was novels, it was poetry, it was films, it was. Yeah, the interrupter there. If you're going to get all paranoid, big picture, it's like, yeah, if they can. You know, the way you go after institutions, if you can go after all the art forms and make them just not that relevant, oh, you got a whole nother population here to manipulate. So we all have to stick up for our art forms and give them that kind of, you know, that space. They're still there. They are writing the novels. People are making the movies and writing the poetry. It's just. It's up to everyone to elevate.

[Chris]

Yeah. For me, personally, it's a little nuanced because what you're describing requires not just focus, but consideration. And that's the consideration. That's why I like doing this show. That's the hard thing to do.

[Ethan Hawke]

It's an invitation for you. You know, that's what I feel like. What I like about when I feel like a movie is made well. Or a book is made well. It's an invitation for you, the audience, to join us in this conversation. It's not telling you what to think. The audience is a part of that. I felt that way when I was a kid watching One Flew the Cuckoo's Nest or something. It's not telling me when the chief is running into the woods and those drums are playing. And there's the broken window with the sink that's through it. And I'm like. I'm looking at that going, what does this mean? It's not clear. Like, wait, it's better than clear. It's the great. It's the mystery. Things without mystery have no power. Mystery is the reality. We do not know why we're born and why we have to die. We are living inside immense mystery. And this illusion is that you have some control or power or that you like things that invite mystery. They're giving you a Chance to consider it yourself. The artist isn't right or wrong. It's what do you think? And now we're in dialogue together. And that's what made those movies or those albums or those books, things that you could revisit.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, but new waves are always in opposition to the status quo. The mainstream, our particular mainstream of this era, as we talked about great novels and stuff, you realize, well, those novels used to be on talk shows. You know, they used to be part of the culture. That's a producer, an editor. People are making those choices. Like, let's. Oh, yeah, it's a great book. It's the book of the year. It's the best book I've read. But our audience doesn't, you know, they don't occupy the spot on the talk show at night. Let's give that to some 21 year old who has a million followers who did this thing, because that's going to get the eyeball. So, you know, it's just straight up money. But that's something to rebel against for sure. Because we have to first, you have to admit, the mainstream is overall pretty weak.

[Chris]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, ironically, one of my hobbies is watching those interviews on Dick Cavett on YouTube, though. But in this space, you're being assaulted at all times with other things to look at.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, but it's there as a record, a historical record. Look who's on the Dick Cabot show that night. And you have three different people like, oh my God, what a lineup. And that's what the world wanted to. They wanted to converse and hear from them.

[Chris]

Right.

[Ethan Hawke]

It's one of the great things about, like when I was making the Last Movie Stars, that documentary about Paul Newman and shown is I got to watch all those old talk shows and see the other people before and after and see how meandering they were and how intelligent they were. And they, it was.

[Richard Linklater]

The position they had in the culture was exciting. Like, who has that now? Now, you know, even room for public intellectuals and.

[Chris]

What do you mean you guys are here? We're doing it.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah. People like that.

[Ethan Hawke]

We're here and we're grateful to be here.

[Richard Linklater]

You got to flip it. Yeah, it is this. The, the podcast era is kind of that. Is that now. That's where people get together and talk.

[Chris]

So, you know, thanks for contributing. Got to be grateful for that.

[Richard Linklater]

No, things we, we lament what's not there, but what is here.

[Chris]

Yeah, right.

[Richard Linklater]

You know, this. There. There's a whole new thing. You just have to, to, you know, you can't I mean.

[Ethan Hawke]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, oftentimes we don't see what's good. I listened to. I think I called you after I. But I listened to Ken Burns, who's got this Revolution documentary coming out. Listen to him on Joe Rogan for two and a half hours. It was brilliant.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

I mean, it was as good as anything we're mourning. It was amazing. Staggeringly intelligent.

[Richard Linklater]

There's never been a medium that gave people that space.

[Ethan Hawke]

So there is.

[Richard Linklater]

30 minutes on dick Cavett is one thing, but even radio shows back then weren't. They were commercial. Yeah.

[Chris]

It was 90 seconds.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah. You didn't get. You were on to talk about your book for five minutes or something, but it was not the space and time to talk.

[Chris]

So everything's terrible. Everything's great. As always, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. Doesn't have to be on YouTube, obviously. If you guys see anything good that you like. You were in Telluride. You were in Telluride. Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

Well, the last thing I have to say. This is going to be kind of annoying, but I did just watch Vinvender's American Friend.

[Chris]

Oh, my God.

[Ethan Hawke]

And I have to say that photography is unbelievable.

[Chris]

Is that Robbie Muller? Yeah. Yeah, that was. Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

I personally wish I was really good friends with him and I could have done a second draft of the script. It was like some plot holes.

[Chris]

I was not interested in the details of her story.

[Ethan Hawke]

Dennis Hopper in those images.

[Chris]

They're like.

[Richard Linklater]

They.

[Ethan Hawke]

Wow. And it's not flashy photography. It's just stunning. Absolutely stunning.

[Chris]

That's a great pick. I love that movie. Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

I mean, this is a big question because I have modern stuff and then.

[Chris]

Anything you like, I think.

[Richard Linklater]

You know, I watched Story of Adele H recently. Truffaut.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

And I hadn't seen that lately, and it was just as beautiful.

[Chris]

I talked to Noah Baumek yesterday and he recommended a Truffaut film as well.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah.

[Chris]

It's a small change. That's funny.

[Ethan Hawke]

Oh, yeah.

[Richard Linklater]

Truffaut never goes away.

[Ethan Hawke]

Never goes away.

[Richard Linklater]

You know, he's the guy, you know, for forever and then current, you know, oh, like everybody, One battle after another, you know, things like that, you know. Gotta give it up. Yeah.

[Ethan Hawke]

I had to. This has been happening for many years. But my just hat is so off to DiCaprio.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah. Who. Holy shit.

[Ethan Hawke]

He's just such a leader in. In my profession and he's.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah, it's.

[Ethan Hawke]

It's just been staggering to watch. Just really, really inventive, thrilling work. You can like one, love one, dislike one but they're always worth your time. They're always bold.

[Richard Linklater]

They're always doing Paul together in this or is just just amazing.

[Ethan Hawke]

Just fantastic. And I also thought Emma Stone Bon I thought I was like wow, who is this woman? She just keeps being great and it's, it's non stop and so hats off to.

[Richard Linklater]

Yeah but there's so much, there's always, you know, I never rag on every year is a good year for film worldwide. There's always a lot of films, more than most people have time to even watch that are always great.

[Chris]

Blue Moon is great too. Thank you both for being here. Thanks for having me. Congrats on the film. Thank you to Ethan Hawke and Richard Linklater. Thank you to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Later this week. What do we have?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Amanda Number four from 25 for 25 which we recorded several weeks ago at the Egyptian Theater or at least a week ago and as of this recording has not been leaked that I know of.

[Chris]

Nor I. Why do you think that is?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Because we, we built a society of trust.

[Chris]

Do you think that the listeners are afraid of you? I don't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I don't think that I led with fear. I think I led with inspiration. I invoked Beyonce and I invoked mutual respect and I gave people an opportunity for their clout photo and then you gave them some letterboxd how to so you know we're creating a safe space.

[Chris]

I think the pick is good and I hope people enjoy it. We'll see you then.

[Amanda Dobbins]

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