‘Wicked: For Good’ Is No Good. But ‘Train Dreams’ Is.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Picture — "‘Wicked: For Good’ Is No Good. But ‘Train Dreams’ Is."

Date: November 21, 2025
Hosts: Sean Fennessey & Amanda Dobbins
Guests: Juliette Littman (for "Wicked: For Good"), Clint Bentley (director, "Train Dreams")

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Sean, Amanda, and guest Juliette Littman take a deep dive into two major film releases: the highly-anticipated conclusion to the "Wicked" saga, Wicked: For Good, and the quietly powerful adaptation of Denis Johnson's novella, Train Dreams. The episode is a mix of gleeful pop culture banter and sharp critical analysis, navigating everything from musical theater emotions to the existential struggles found in early 20th-century logging camps.

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Key Segments & Insights

[01:19–11:58] Pop Star Documentaries, Charli XCX, & Hunger Games Hype

Charli XCX's "The Moment"

• Hosts react to Charli XCX's upcoming mockumentary, The Moment.
• Discussion about pop star documentaries' ubiquity in the wake of Taylor Swift and Beyoncé, and the (meta) artistic potential of Charli’s approach.
  • Juliette: “I thought it seemed pretty charming... Maybe she’s gonna reinvent the form.” [02:39]
  • Sean: “If we get a Truth or Dare meets Waiting for Guffman, I love it.” [06:11]
• Amanda brings up her Letterboxd activity and Taylor Swift's public movie taste (“We're so lucky to be alive at the same time as Paul Thomas Anderson is a real thing she said.” [07:19])

Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping

• Reverence for the franchise’s casting bonanza (Ralph Fiennes, Jesse Plemons, Elle Fanning, Kieran Culkin, Glenn Close, Billy Porter, and more).
• Fascination and slight exhaustion over keeping all the lore and retroactive plot developments straight.

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[19:33–68:09] In-Depth Review: Wicked: For Good

Setting the Stage

• Juliette shares her love for musicals: “I think they’re important and special and love the opportunity to get in touch with my inner theater kid. And Wicked draws that out... I’m definitely not like a Broadway expert, but I am a Broadway super fan.” [20:50]
• Amanda and Sean both approach as relative “outsiders” to the original “Wicked” phenomenon.

General Reaction & Main Critiques

• Juliette: “I found it frustrating. I just didn’t know why a lot of the decisions were made...they really amplified the impact of Fiyero as a love interest, which isn’t as central in the musical. It felt like we were watching a superhero movie and they rushed through the musical numbers. No showstopper, and that’s just a crime in a musical movie.” [25:01–26:55]

  • Did not enjoy it, questions if she was in a bad mood or the film was simply an artistic misfire. [27:08]

• Amanda: Finds this installment a bit more fun than the first, but still baffling and vaguely alienated by the adaptation’s choices.

  • “Even Defying Gravity… they start the superhero stuff, cut it through, she’s flying around… There’s also a lot of expository setup…at least [this one] was legible: this person is against these other people. The lack of musical numbers was to its benefit, honestly.” [27:46–28:50]

• Sean: Concerned with how the film tries to “retcon” "The Wizard of Oz", and the messy mishmash of allegory, plot, and fandom service.

  • “The films don’t look very good...the ultimate issue is story. It’s like they upended something...the actual execution is just so weird and stupid.” [30:41–33:11]

Memorable Exchange

• Amanda (re: the Wizard of Oz connection): “What is the moral of Wicked, the stage show?” [33:11]
• Juliette: “Power is abused to ostracize a certain class... The whole story is Elphaba and Glinda’s friendship.” [33:26]
• Sean: “It's completely spring loaded to be projected onto the queer experience or communities that have been cast out... but the villain/good structure is undermined by the one-dimensionality of the wizard and Madame Morrible.” [36:40]

Plot and Adaptation Problems

• Confusion over geography/politics of Oz, literalism in adaptation, and jumbled allegories.
• Frustration at exacerbated love triangle (“Who cares about this guy made of straw now?” [25:10]), added “Noah’s Ark” animal subplots, and stretching of the source via extra scenes and new, forgettable songs.
  • “They added so much literalism...it doesn't need to be so literal. People will get it.” [40:49]

The "Wizard of Oz" Conundrum

• The panel deeply dislikes the explicit, literal connections (Tin Man, Scarecrow, Dorothy as a “side villain”).
  • Sean: “This movie is like, we're going to tie up all those loose threads so you can say ‘here’s why he’s a Tin Man.’ That’s not interesting.” [52:30]
  • Amanda: “Once they bring in like the Reddit Easter egg Wizard of Oz tie-ins—preposterous. Just absolutely silly.” [42:04]

Performances

• Praise for Grande (“She has a really good comic touch...but doesn't get to be that fun or funny in this movie.” [65:18]) and Erivo, but lament for Michelle Yeoh and Jeff Goldblum being miscast.
• Jonathan Bailey gets love for his charm (“Just not enough Jonathan Bailey in this movie. So disappointing.” [59:07])

Oscars & Box Office

• Consensus that Wicked: For Good will make less than the first, due to fan base disappointment and word of mouth, despite Universal’s marketing machine.
  • Juliette: “If you like the movie, it's kind of heartbreaking...you dropped the ball.” [69:40]
• Predict nominations for Grande and Erivo; see possible wins (esp. Best Supporting Actress for Grande), but are skeptical about Best Picture momentum.
  • “Is it successful artistically? I don't think anybody on this podcast thinks so.” [64:04]

Notable Quotes

• Juliette: “I think there's too many animals in Wicked for Good.” [33:26]
• Sean: “This movie is idiotic. Guys, what is going on?” [48:28]
• Amanda: “I'd really like to ask you a lot of questions about how magic works in Oz.” [30:02]

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[85:28–96:26] Review: Train Dreams

General Reaction

• Sean describes his initial virtual Sundance viewing, being “really moved...really knocked out.” [85:42]
• Amanda was skeptical at first, but calls the film “beautiful and wonderful...absolutely upsetting and beautiful. One of those things where you feel the emotions you’re supposed to feel very early on.” [87:55]

What Makes It Work

• The film is praised for its naturalistic, episodic structure and deep emotional resonance.
• Both hosts are surprised and affected by Joel Edgerton’s subtle performance and Felicity Jones’s strength in a delicate role.
  • “I thought [Edgerton] was very good...and it's not as showy as a lot of the best actor candidates we've been talking about...he gives a great performance.” [90:03]
• William H. Macy’s small role singled out for career-best quality.

Unique Aspects

• Love for the visual invention (notably the camera “strapped to a log” shot [92:49]) and the Malickian approach to time, memory, and landscape.

Oscars & Awards

• Hosts see the film as a major Best Picture dark horse: “A movie that everybody kind of likes—that’s what sneaks in for Best Picture.” [95:33]
• “You need this movie to show up in the number three or four spot on a lot of ballots...” [95:32]

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[96:26–130:37] Interview: Clint Bentley (Director, Train Dreams)

Adapting Johnson’s Novella

• Bentley was already a “superfan” of Denis Johnson’s work: “I became a huge, super fan.” [97:36]
• Initially considered the novella “unadaptable,” but found a narrative structure by focusing on “two halves: before and after a family tragedy, and how someone picks up the pieces.” [102:29]

Filmmaking & Style

• Bentley describes an almost documentary approach, collaborating with working loggers for authenticity and using minimal VFX for period realism.
  • “We went into logging areas where they’re already cutting down trees and just said, ‘Which ones are you cutting down next week?’” [108:31]
• Discusses decision to shoot on digital for flexibility and hidden VFX for naturalism.

Narration

• Incisive discussion of why Will Patton's narrated storytelling works:
  • “If you were in some bar in a logging town and some guy sits next to you and says, ‘Let me tell you about Robert Greineer’…I wanted it to feel like that.” [114:26]
• Describes how narration is in the spirit of the novella but avoids “cheesy” first-person introspection.

Casting

• Bentley discusses his appreciation for Joel Edgerton’s timelessness and deft subtlety:
  • “You believe him as a logger chopping down trees, but then you also believe him as, like, a sweet family man, hanging out with the kid and holding the baby. That’s a very rare gift.” [116:45]

Reflections on Indie Filmmaking

• Bentley is grateful yet pragmatic about the Netflix release:
  • “There’s no lack of desire, no lack of audience...but fewer and fewer distributors. The whole industry is trying to figure out what’s up and down.” [125:25]
• Feels lucky: family everywhere can now watch his film.

Last Great Movie Seen

• How Green Was My Valley (“I found myself like the last half, just crying through the last half. It’s hard when you have years like that where we have to have a best and you've got like Citizen Kane and that movie.” [129:28])
• One Battle After Another (“I could like Benicio Del Toro’s character...I need a whole movie of him.” [130:15])

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Notable Quotes by Topic & Timestamp

On "Wicked: For Good"

• “It felt like they made a conscious decision to make a superhero movie and rush through the musical numbers... no showstopper musical number. That is just a crime in a musical movie.” — Juliette [25:15]
• “This is just a continuation...the films don't look very good. The way they're lit is bizarre...the ultimate issue is just...it feels like a real problem of story.” — Sean [30:41]
• “The movie could not communicate [the original's purpose] to me. Once they bring in the Reddit Easter egg Wizard of Oz tie-ins—preposterous. Just absolutely silly, you know?” — Amanda [42:04]

On "Train Dreams"

• “It is beautiful and wonderful... absolutely upsetting and beautiful. And one of those things where you feel the emotions that you’re supposed to feel very early on in the film.” — Amanda [87:55]
• “You need this movie to show up in, like, the number three or four spot on a lot of ballots to get bumped up and up.” — Sean [95:32]
• On narration: “I wanted this character to feel like...in some bar in a logging town late at night and some guy sits next to you and is like, ‘Let me tell you about Robert Greinear’.” — Clint Bentley [114:26]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:19] Start of show, Charli XCX & trailers
• [11:12] Hunger Games franchise casting discussion
• [19:33] Introduction to / review of Wicked: For Good
• [25:01] Juliette articulates frustration with the film
• [40:10] Extended discussion on adaptation choices, "Wizard of Oz" connections, and animal subplots
• [52:30] Panel critiques forced references and retconning (Tin Man/Scarecrow origin)
• [64:04] Oscar/Box office predictions, Universal’s strategy
• [68:09] Transition to "Train Dreams" review
• [85:28] First impressions and emotional reaction to "Train Dreams"
• [92:49] Visual strategy and technical praise
• [96:26] Interview with Clint Bentley
• [114:26] Bentley on narration and adaptation choices

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Overall Tone

Honest, playful, irreverent, and deeply analytical. The hosts are not shy about voicing their frustrations, but find room to celebrate heartfelt filmmaking and surprising artistry where it emerges.

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For Those Who Haven’t Listened

• If you’re a Wicked fan, expect a sobering critique on both adaptation choices and filmmaking craft; if you’re a musical outsider, you may find validation.
• If you gravitate toward intimate, visual storytelling, Train Dreams is strongly recommended and lovingly championed here.
• The episode is peppered with pop culture digressions, Letterboxd humor, and a sharp Oscar forecasting segment, making it rich and engaging for cinephiles.

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Next episode: Amanda and Sean will review Sentimental Value, Regretting You, and take stock of the Best Picture race.

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Transcript

[A]

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Big gifts, big perks. That's why you rack.

[B]

I'm Sean Fennese.

[C]

I'm Amanda Davis and this is the Big Picture.

[B]

A conversation show about Because I knew you on today's episode, we're discussing two new releases. Release is Wicked for Good, the epic conclusion of the musical adaptation directed by John M. Chu. It's here. It's one of the biggest movies of the year. Juliette Lippman is here to discuss it with us. Break it all down. We'll share our deepest to darkest feelings about the Wicked franchise. Then Amanda and I will discuss Train Dreams, which is a Sundance sensation that is now out on Netflix, an adaptation of a Dennis Johnson novella. Later in this episode, I'll have the director of Train Dreams, Clint Bentley, to join me, arguably the nicest person in the history of guests on this show. Wonderful conversation with him. I hope people stick around for that and that conversation about that movie. But before we get into Wicked for good, couple of trailers, couple of jam session coded trailers. I would say here we are. Certainly the first one. The first one is the Moment, which is the forthcoming feature acting debut of Charli xcx. It's a kind of mockumentary about her and her most recent tour and Brad Summer and everything that's transpired with her over the last couple of years. It's directed by Aidan Zemiri. We saw the trailer this morning. Amanda, Juliet, you guys Talked about Charli XCX ad nauseum the last 18 months.

[C]

What did you think of this guest first, Juliet?

[D]

I thought it seemed pretty charming. I'm looking forward to it. I also thought it seemed confusing and too close to life for a mockumentary, but that's great. Maybe she's gonna reinvent the form.

[C]

Yeah, maybe that's where the art comes from. I'm obviously deeply, deeply, deeply on board for this. As a huge Charli XCX fan and a person who likes somewhat meta but are they joking type experiences, I would say that my relationship to pop star documentaries is filtered through the lens of our guest, Juliette Lippman.

[D]

That's a huge honor. Thank you so much.

[C]

In that sense, I'm just excited to talk about it with Juliet. And I like a big picture jam session, crossover moment.

[B]

It was notable this morning that this year. And we haven't potted together. When's the last time the three of us potted together? It's gotta be years.

[D]

I think. A very long time.

[B]

That's stunning and sad for me in so many ways.

[D]

I don't remember the last time. Oh, I think for the Hamilton movie on Disney, which I also referenced. Last time was on the Big Picture one year ago.

[B]

Holy shit. They only bring you on for big musical events and the moment. Maybe the next time you have to come on. That's a musical event as well.

[D]

Directed by Thomas Kail.

[B]

I have some serious concerns about Moana. I gotta tell you, that trailer did not inspire me at all.

[D]

I follow the work of all Hamilton alum, so I'll be seeing it.

[C]

Juliet, where are you on Moana, the original film?

[D]

Though I like to sing you're welcome over and over, but I don't know any other words to Moana.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Da da da, da, da, da, da, da. You're welcome.

[C]

We're in this the same place. Except I didn't even know that. That was beautiful, though.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

You know, earlier this week, Amanda was asking me about the songs from Moana, and I was saying I could sing where I'll go at any moment, at any time of the day, you know, and just consider the coconut, you know, consider its leaves.

[D]

Sure.

[C]

Is that a knowing David Foster Wallace reference?

[B]

I don't think so.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But I could be wrong.

[D]

Perhaps it's written by Lin Manuel Miranda, right? Yeah, I think it could be. Okay. I think he's a very well read gentleman.

[B]

Did David Foster Wallace invent the. Consider the.

[C]

Probably not. It's probably like a Samuel, like Pepys or whatever.

[B]

Reference.

[C]

I don't even know. Did I conflate two names right then? What was Pepys first name? But in my mind, it is a consider the lobster reference.

[B]

If there's David Foster Wallace in Moana, all the better. That's how I feel about that. The moment I think is it looks pretty fun. I think this is hard to pull off. And we're in this funny moment in the aftermath of the eras tour film, the Beyonce Renaissance movie, the Taylor Swift album release party, whatever the fuck that was that happened two months ago. All this.

[D]

The Taylor Swift six episodes plus documentary coming for us very soon.

[B]

Is that a thing that's happening?

[C]

Oh, yeah. On Disney.

[D]

On Disney. Six episodes of her final performance of the Irishman.

[C]

She gives them content. Swift gives her her own movie whenever she finally wants to make.

[D]

Okay, how could I be breaking this news to you?

[B]

Well, hard to believe I didn't get the Taylor Swift news. That's not surprising, and that's fine. And I do think Charli xdx, even as a pop star, seems to be kind of taking the piss out of what it means to be a pop star while also trying to have all the spoils of being a pop star. So. And, you know, I thought of Madonna, druth or dare watching this mockumentary a little bit, and I feel like she is like kind of an ancestor to whatever Charlie XCX is trying to do. The sort of, like, the knowingness of her Persona. And I also thought of Waiting for Guffman. So if we get a truth or dare meets Waiting for Guffman, I love it. I'm in. I probably won't be that good, but you never know.

[C]

Do you think Charlie would come on this podcast to talk to you about the moment?

[B]

She loves cinema.

[C]

She loves it. She's on substack. She's on Letterbox. Yes, she is everywhere. Just watching. She's on TikTok, casting Final Destination movies. Like I, Charli XCX, come on the podcast. I wouldn't want to meet her because I don't like meeting my heroes. I will go with her to Tenants of the Trees afterwards if she would like that.

[B]

Let's do a quick run through Charlie's November on letterboxd. Okay, great. This is gonna be a really good use of time. First of all, she's logged 219 movies. Fucking A. That's what it's all about.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

That's what these fucking pop stars need to be doing is logging these films. How many movies has Taylor Swift logged this year? I I ask you that.

[C]

Well, it's an ongoing discussion on jam session of half any films she's seen. But she actually, she does like the work of Paul Thomas Anderson. She shouted it out on whatever late night show that was.

[B]

I take it all back.

[C]

She said, what was the direct quote?

[D]

I don't know, but I would. I don't know. Do you remember it?

[C]

I think it was, we're so lucky to be alive at the same time as Paul Thomas Anderson is a real thing. She said, wow. Yeah.

[D]

I think we landed on. On jam session that she watches a lot of movies. The open question is how many does Travis watch? What?

[C]

Correct.

[B]

I see. Right?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you think he's seen like Sentimental Value in Begonia and had some deep thoughts about those films? No.

[C]

Barbie is his favorite Greta Gerwig film. That is something we know from the no Hards Feeling podcast.

[B]

Very cool. Okay. Okay. November for Charlie on letterboxd very quickly. There's a lot of films here, guys. And frankly, there's something for all of us in this mix. On November 1, she watched the moment, this film that we're talking about.

[C]

Great.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

The same day she watched Bram Stoker's Dracula.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Salute. We have to salute you.

[D]

We do.

[C]

Though I do need to ask for 2. 219 films in one month. I don't know if this is like a Steven Soderbergh cultural diary level of real time or whether she's maybe logging things she's already seen. Because that is something letterbox asks you like. Hey, have you seen this? Do you wanna.

[B]

I don't think so. I think if you're applying the date. I don't think she's trying to just identify. Cause you can just click watched. You don't have to click the date that you watched it. You can just say that you've. I believe so. Like, for example, she and I were in the same screening room on October 28th. We saw father, Mother, Sister, Brother, the Jarmusch film. So she logged it like moments either before or after me. So I think she's doing it in real time.

[C]

Okay, this is important.

[D]

219 total or in November?

[B]

No, in the year of 2025.

[D]

Oh, I thought you said in November. So did I.

[C]

That makes more sense.

[B]

Imagine if I just listed 219 films at you guys. No, but I think it's north of 20 films.

[C]

Welcome to the big Picture.

[B]

That is one of my favorite hobbies. So Bram Stoker's Dracula. The next day she watched the Naked Gun remake.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

The day after that she watched Simon Killer. Do you know who the star of Simon Killer is?

[C]

I don't.

[B]

A little man named Brady Courbet.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

November 5th, Four Weddings and a Funeral.

[C]

That's my girl.

[D]

Nice.

[B]

November 7th, Woody Allen's Husbands and Wives.

[C]

That's my girl.

[B]

November 7th, the Devil all the Time. November 7th, Friendship, the 2025 comedy. November 8th, To Live and Die in LA. I see you, Charlie. November 8th, Caught Stealing. Tough one. No rating on that one. I'll notice.

[C]

You gotta keep up with what your friends were up to.

[B]

November 9th, she watched Michael Mann's the Keep.

[C]

That's beautiful. What have you guys seen that?

[B]

You probably haven't seen that movie.

[C]

And also, like, Charlie is recently married and happily partnered. So I don't know why she's doing the Michael Mann deep dives, but I'm happy for her.

[D]

Maybe for him. Isn't that possible?

[B]

There's more to come, guys. November 11th, Begonia. Respect it. November 12th, another Woody Allen film, Love and Death. November 12th, After School. November 14th, Laventura. November 14th, Mighty Aphrodite. That's three Woody Allen movies in 14 days. November 16th, The Long Goodbye. Robert Altman, Charlie. Good lord. And then November 19, she watched John Huston's the Dead, which was recently announced to be a part of the Criterion Collection. You just. You love to see it. You love to see it.

[C]

It is very cool. It is very. Just started dating a boy in, like, college who really is into movies, but that's cool, I guess. That is, like, we have bottled that experience and turned it into an app, and it's called letterboxd. And that's awesome.

[B]

It's nice. It's nice that everyone can have their own little boyfriend in this app.

[D]

It seems like they're both not on tour, probably, and so just like, seeing a lot of movies together would be my guess in her.

[B]

What's her husband's deal? What does he do?

[C]

George. He's the drummer of the 1975.

[B]

What?

[C]

That's how the Charlie Taylor thing happened. And that's because, like. And Charlie did some songs about Taylor, but didn't name her because of the whole. What was that guy's name?

[D]

Matty Healy. Yeah.

[B]

Does Taylor know that being on coke has created some of the greatest films of all time? Does she aware of that? Has anyone mentioned that to her?

[D]

I think that it probably came up while they were writing this most recent album. I just. I just feel like, you know, she was trying to, like, get a little edgier. So I'm sure they discussed the important role of Cocaine.

[B]

Got it. I'm in a great mood in this for this episode. Okay, the next thing we're gonna talk about. This is the Hunger Games. Sunrise on the Reaping. Julia, do you care about the Hunger Games?

[D]

You know I do.

[B]

I thought you did.

[D]

I do, actually. I feel like it's a great part of culture and I enjoyed those movies a lot. You know, I'm. I'm very invested in the Hemsworth's all the time. So, like, I just continue to.

[C]

To.

[D]

To carry a torch for Liam Hemsworth as Gail. I was actually just thinking about that Team Gail and Team PETA feels like a long time ago.

[B]

And Hutcherson really back in the mix lately with I love L. A. Have you been watching I love la?

[C]

I saw the first episode.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

And I was like, all right.

[B]

Second episode I thought was very funny. First episode was okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I'll dip back some really good hutch in the second episode as the sort of stifled boyfriend.

[D]

I look forward to it. I've been tied up with Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, so it's just been a little busy over here.

[B]

I see. I haven't seen that show. This new Hunger Games movie. No Hutcherson in this movie. No Jennifer Lawrence. This is. It's called Sunrise on the Reaping, which is just an epic slogan. It's the sixth one. It's both a sequel to the Hunger the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, which was the movie with Rachel Zegler that came out in 2023.

[C]

Juliet, have you seen that one?

[D]

No, I haven't.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Is it good?

[C]

No, I didn't really enjoy it, but Rachel Zegler is sort of like fronting a Lumineer style band while also being part of one of the Hunger Games.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

So it just wasn't my preferred musical experience.

[B]

Mixed bag wasn't my favorite either.

[D]

Isn't she starring on the West End right now in London? Isn't she in Evita?

[C]

Yeah, I believe so.

[B]

Rachel Zegler is starring as Evita. That's actually inspired.

[C]

You gotta get on our Internet. I know that I say this a lot. This is really rewarding also because most of the time on this show, it's you and your pals talking about video games. And I'm like, uh huh.

[B]

It's not true.

[C]

And it's just, Juliet, thank you for coming and joining and welcoming Shawn into the world.

[B]

I invited Juliet. What are you talking about?

[C]

Actually, you'll find the text messages will show that I did. And I communicated what was said on a spreadsheet. At 11:30pm To Juliet.

[B]

It was my idea to invite Juliet.

[C]

And I made the scheduling happen. But that's fine.

[B]

Let's keep it moving. This movie is directed by Francis Lawrence. He's directed the last five Hunger Games films. Gary Ross directed the first one. You know what else he directed? Chris Ryan's favorite movie, Seabiscuit. He. He stepped away from these films and Lawrence has been making them. Lawrence also made the Long Walk this year, which was kind of an interesting movie. You didn't see that one?

[C]

No, but I know how it ends. Cause you told me, I think alive on a podcast.

[B]

Billy Ray is the screenwriter of this movie. You guys familiar with the work of Billy Ray?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

He wrote Shattered Glass and he wrote the Comey rule adaptation, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Your favorite. Pandemic Watch for sure.

[B]

That was pretty good, actually. I thought that was quite interesting. James Comey, is he in prison yet? What's going on with that?

[C]

I really.

[D]

I believe there's a countersuit related to the indictment against him.

[B]

So I knew you would know exactly where that story stands. Thank you, Juliet. You are really on the right episode today.

[D]

I must say, I'm delighted to be here.

[B]

The cast of Sunrise on the Reaping is insane. So because it's a prequel to the original Hunger Games film, you have a lot of characters that we saw in the original Hunger Games films, including President Coriolana Snow, who was played by Donald Sutherland in the other films. In this film, he's played by Ralph Fiennes. Ralph Fiennes in the sixth Hunger Games movie.

[C]

He likes to work.

[B]

I know.

[C]

Money is so show up and have a great time.

[B]

I love to get money, too. I get it. Rafe Jesse Plemons as Plutarch Heavensby, who was portrayed by Philip Seymour Hoffman. Ingenious casting. Of course. Plemons once played Philip Seymour Hoffman's son in a movie. The master, Elle Fanning is in this movie having an insane run right now with Predator, Badlands and sentimental Value. Kieran Culkin, Academy Award winner. I think this is his first role on screen.

[C]

Great for him.

[B]

Since that win, he's playing the host of the Hunger Games, Caesar Flickerman. The names in this series remain unmatched. Caesar Flickerman.

[C]

It's very good.

[B]

Okay. Glenn Close.

[D]

Yep.

[C]

Speaking of people who will show up.

[B]

For money, she loves to work. She plays Drusilla Sickle, who I guess is kind of like an Effie Trinket style announcer of the Hunger Games. Billy Porter's in this movie. Kelvin Harrison. Maya Hawke.

[C]

I think you'll find that Effie Trinket was the stylist.

[B]

Was she?

[C]

Right.

[B]

Who was Elizabeth Banks character?

[D]

I thought she was Effie Trinket, but I'm gonna look it up right now.

[C]

She was, and Effie Trinket was a stylist because, you know, the opulent nature of the costumes in the Hunger Games and getting someone on your side, like, the style and your visual presentation is such an important part of your positioning.

[B]

Did you love the Hunger Games?

[C]

No, but I read the three books and I saw them.

[B]

But didn't she also sort of like. Wasn't she present for the selection of the tributes in the first film? Yes. In the same role that Glenn Close plays in this trailer.

[D]

She's like, walks alongside Jennifer Lawrence's character out to the front.

[C]

She's a publicist, stylist. But I think she's introduced as a stylist because they understand that the visual accoutrements are an important part of the messaging. It's very exciting because it's a comment on our society.

[B]

What?

[C]

I don't know if you've heard this. I'm like, the materialization.

[B]

I thought it was just a rollicking adventure series. There's three other young actors who are portraying the tributes. One I have never heard of. Joseph Zada, who I think is basically the star of this movie, who is meant to be Haymitch Abernathy, who is Woody Harrelson's character from the original Hunger Games.

[C]

I will say, when I googled Hunger Games trailer this morning.

[D]

Me too, Amanda.

[C]

Right. And then I clicked on the Lionsgate link, and it was Hunger Games Sunrise, whatever title. And then the one name in the title a long with the title of this movie was Joseph Zada.

[D]

I was like, are there other trailers that have someone else's name in them? Like, is this just the first one to come? I thought that was very confusing. It also lives on YouTube.

[B]

Very odd. Another one of the tributes will be played by McKenna Grace, who Amanda and I just saw in the Colleen Hoover adaptation Regretting youg, which will make for an incredible conversation on this pod very soon.

[C]

I truly, truly can't wait for this podcast.

[B]

And Ben Wong, who plays Wyatt Callow in this new Hunger Games movie, who I just saw in the Long Walk, and was very good. Sort of the third lead of that mov behind David Johnson and Cooper Hoffman. So that's coming out literally this time next year, November 20, 2026, which is happy Thanksgiving. Yes, I guess so.

[D]

That seems good. Do you guys ever review the music video List or filmography of Francis Lawrence.

[B]

I mean, I know he's directed a great many music videos. He was a guest on this show, actually.

[C]

When you say review, do you mean. What do you mean by that?

[D]

Well, like, every time he's brought up in relation to the Hunger Games, I just think of every time he was on MTV for, like, you know, Inside. What was the name of that show? Like, Inside the Music Video or whatever. Making the video.

[B]

Making video. Yes.

[D]

It's an astonishing list of. Of music videos. Like, he has really had a stranglehold on. On pop culture for a long time. It's, like, pretty. It's, like, shocking. It look.

[B]

It looks like his first credited music video is Gone till November by Wyclef John, which, I must tell you, in 1997, had culture in a chokehold.

[D]

It had so much importance to me.

[B]

I'll bet.

[D]

Like, so much.

[B]

Did you enjoy the Carnival, that album by Wyclef Sean?

[D]

Sean, you have no idea. To the extent you could, like, break a CD from Overuse. That's where I was at the carnival.

[C]

Listen. He directed both Cry Me a River and Jenny from the Block.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, this is. No, it's incredibly important.

[B]

He directed back at one by Brian McKnight. He directed warning by Green Day. I mean, this guy had range as a music video director.

[C]

Aidia by Sarah McLachlan.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Like, it's kind of shocking. Like, he has such a big impact.

[C]

Unrelated to the videography of Frances Lawrence, but just related to music videos and Juliet being here. I recently saw the music video for Justin Timberlake's Mirror for the first time.

[B]

Sure. Isn't it mirrorless?

[C]

Right. But then there's, like, the old couple that has. I don't really know what's going on. I was quite taken aback. It was a strange time.

[B]

Why? Did you see that movie?

[C]

I was getting my nails done, and that's what happens. Is that the thing? I just play music video.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And you watch them and you're like, huh, that's the world we lived in.

[B]

It really all came tumbling down with the 2020 experience. That was like, he was really riding a wave, and then it just completely toppled. Anyhow, this is a whole other podcast we could do about growing up listening to pop music in the 90s and 2000s. Should we pivot to Wicked for good?

[D]

I'm ready.

[B]

Okay. So this, as I said, is the second installment in the Wicked films. It's again directed by Jon M. Chu, screenplay by Winnie Holzman and Dana Fox. It's based On Wicked by Stephen Schwartz and Winnie Holzman. The smash stage musical, which is also based on the novel Wicked by Gregory Maguire. Now, as I said last time, Juliet and I spoke about the first Wicked film. I've not read the novel. I've not seen the stage show. I come to this learning all of the material in real time as I'm seeing the movie. I think that's true for you as well.

[C]

We're learning and we're growing altogether.

[B]

I am shrinking. I am shrinking all the time.

[C]

May I just say that last year's episode about the first install Wicked, just. That's the title, right? Just Wicked.

[B]

Just Wicked, yes.

[C]

That you and Julia did together while I was on leave was wonderful and very insightful. And I recommend that anyone who did not listen to it seek that out before joining us for part two.

[D]

That's really nice, Amanda. Thank you.

[C]

I learned a lot.

[B]

I mean, Juliet is a. You know, maybe you should just restate your bona fides before we start talking about the second installment.

[D]

Yeah, sure. I am Juliet. I am Amanda's co host of Jam Sessions. Well, you don't have to go all.

[B]

The way back to the beginning.

[D]

I really love Wicked, the musical, the stage show. I also, like, in general, love musicals as a feeling, as an experience, as an idea, as a medium. I think they're, like, important and special and love the opportunity to get in touch with my inner theater kid. And Wicked really draws that out. It has for, like, you know, millions upon millions of people. So I'm not alone. And yeah, I'm definitely not, like a Broadway expert, but I am a Broadway super fan and also just, like, have the benefit of growing up in New York and having been able to see a lot of musicals, which I feel like just is an unfair advantage.

[B]

So is there anything you want to state about yourself before we start discussing this film?

[C]

I was on leave for Wicked Part 1. I did see it in theaters.

[B]

You were. You were canvassing for the Republican Party during that time.

[C]

And then I guess we spoke about Wicked, the original.

[B]

You came on like a house on Fire.

[C]

When you came back, you had some.

[B]

Strong words for the film. Listen, I did, too. I really did not like the first film.

[C]

But like you, I am not a person who has seen the stage show. I think generationally, for me and Juliet, it was definitely a thing for a lot of people.

[B]

And you guys are two years younger than me.

[C]

Well, that was. Right. That was also like, my way of seeing, like, for girls, you know, without being, like, super gendered, but. And I You know, and also, I don't. I don't mean to exclude the many men who also feel a real connection to the show, but. But it was a thing. And like, our. Our jam session producer, Jade Whaley, is also a huge Wicked head because they did it a version of it in her high school. Is that right, Juliet? I don't want to.

[D]

I believe so.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's a phenomenon.

[D]

The show is big, and. Yeah, and it's so big. It's been around for so long. It's now been 21 years. It had, like, multiple national tours, and it still sells out all the time in New York. And, you know, I think it's been to, like, every major city in the world. There's been a production of Wicked. It's an international phenomenon.

[C]

Right. And. But I was not a part of that phenomenon. Don't. I had Defying Gravity, which is the. From the first act, the climactic song that closes the first installment had, like, made its way to me. Like, I, you know, I know who Idina Menzel and Kristen China with are, but I was not a part of this and didn't really seek it out before Wicked, the film, or this adaptation, I should say.

[B]

Okay, we've cleared the decks on all those. Anything else you want to note, Julia?

[D]

Yeah, I just wanted to add one other thing, which is that I think I have an unpopular opinion of. I love the second act of Wicked. I like really enjoying a lot of the songs in it, and I think the kind of conventional idea is the first act is much better. But I actually really love Act 2. I think the music is great. We'll talk about the songs. There's everyone loves for good. It's like, you know, it's like part of the American songbook now. I also really love another song, which I'll save a big reveal. And so I was, like, excited about this movie because I really like the music. I'm. Act Two.

[B]

Okay. This new film essentially returns the entire cast from the previous film that includes Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande, who were both Academy Award nominated for the Jonathan Bailey, Jeff Goldblum, Marissa Bode, Ethan Slater, Michelle Yeoh. They're all back. The story, you know, was literally cleaved in half at the end of the first film. I guess there was a sort of a cliffhanger, and this movie picks up years later. I'm not quite sure how many years later, and we can talk about that, but Elphaba is now known throughout Oz as the Wicked Witch of the West. She's continuing to fight for animal rights in her journeys through Oz. Living in a tree. Glinda is now Glinda the Good. She is sort of like an avatar of the decency that Oz wants to present to this culture. The wizard is ruling alongside Madame Morrible. They are going to come to blows here because, you know, Elphaba needs to seek her revenge for the way that she's been betrayed. And also, there's going to be some significant convergence with the wizard of Oz 1939 film and its characters in this movie. Juliet, I'll start with you. What did you think of Wicked For Good?

[D]

I found it frustrating. I just didn't know why a lot of the decisions were made. And I think there was, like. As someone who loves the musical, there was two things in particular that really bothered me. Which. Should I share them now?

[B]

If you'd like, go for it.

[D]

One. I think there's two. One is an execution and one is sort of like. In principle, I think one of the reasons people love For Good the song is because it really solidifies that the musical can be very heavily seen through this lens of friendship and, like, the idea of how much, you know, the women in your life can make a difference. And that's like the real love story. And I think there was also a lot of conversation around the first movie, around sort of like, the homoeroticism of the first one and the connection between Elphaba and Glinda. And I thought that was, like, interesting and also, like, a good take, if you will. I really found it so frustrating that a lot of the fighting between Elphaba and Glinda and there's, like, literal fighting, like the fight scene and everything was. It felt so much more like the impact of Fiero was amplified and they were, like, fighting over a boy. Whereas I really don't think that is such a strong theme in the musical. And I was just like, what the fuck is this? Like, who cares about this guy made of straw now? I mean, I think that, like, the musical, Fiyero's more interested in Elphaba than Elphaba isn't him. And, like, while they do have a love story, it's not the main love story of the musical. So I found that, like, super disappointing. And then secondly, in execution, this is a musical. And it felt like they made a conscious decision to make a superhero movie and rush through the musical numbers. And I thought that, like, thank goodness and as long as you're mine and for good we're all super rushed and there was no like showstopper musical number. And that is just a crime in a musical movie.

[B]

So by frustrating, would you say you did not enjoy the movie or did you still have fun with it?

[D]

No, I didn't. But I'm also like, was I in a bad mood? I'm like, I'm doing a lot of self reflection on this because I really did not enjoy it. And I was like, maybe I was in a bad mood, but also I really think they fucked it up. Like, I really find it like, sad.

[C]

Can I respond to that? Just in the sense of I was baffled throughout this experience, much as I was during the first and much as I am when beholding the Wicked extravaganza experience. I think I had more fun in this one. So I don't know why. I have some thoughts on what Juliet said.

[B]

Kind of started jogging a wild sag.

[D]

I mean, I'm excited about it.

[C]

I really did not have any fun in the first one. I was like very baffled by it. And then like, you know, as I said, a goat started singing. And also to Juliet's points about the music, musical numbers, I thought that they were very poorly handled in the first. And the things like choreography and cinematography and how you communicate a musical on screen. I'm not as much of a stage musical person as Juliet, but we all know how much Hollywood and old Hollywood musicals mean to me. And I thought it was just like very jumbled, very confusing. I don't really love the songs, but I didn't think the songs were very well communicated. Like even Defying Gravity, which is this triumphant number. They start the superhero stuff, they cut it through and she's flying around. And then it turns out they spoiled the ending in the trailer, so it was confusing. And there's also a lot of expository setup in part one that I didn't really know what was going on. This was at least on a basic level legible of this person is against these other people and who is gonna team up with who. And the lack of musical numbers, I think honestly was to its benefit to me. Because anytime they had the full stage number and all the extras doing their choreography, I think John Chu has directed many much better musical adaptations and much better dancing. And I don't care for this one. And to your point about the emphasis on Fiyero versus the real love story being the friendship, I not knowing anything once they actually do get to for good and are singing lovingly each other. I think Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande are good in these movies despite everything else that's going on around them. And I had my like, very, you know, dumb movie watcher moment sitting in there being like, oh, they're the real love story. That's beautiful. So in at least that case, it communicates it to me. It was also just so plot confusing that I had fun being like, wait, now what's going on? I'd like to ask you a lot of questions about how magic works in Oz. Juliet.

[D]

Sure. I mean, just like, I don't know if I can answer, but I'll try, right?

[C]

I mean, and maybe there is no answer, but, like, is Elphaba the only magical person? Like, what. How does magic. How are magical powers bestowed?

[D]

Certain people have them and Elphaba's mother had them. Plus there's like this elixir, right?

[C]

The wizard has. Yeah, no, I mean, I remember we all.

[D]

Madame Morrible.

[B]

Her sister, Madame Morrible. Yeah, many characters have it. Yeah.

[C]

Okay. But Elphaba has like, more of it.

[B]

She's just very powerful, which is explained at the end of the film why she's very powerful. We don't have to spoil that quite yet.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's fair to. I think it's reasonable to be confused by some of the plotting. Like, I have ocean waves of confusion about the plotting of this movie. And just like the. Particularly the ways in which this movie is trying to retcon what the wizard of Oz is.

[C]

I mean, that stuff is.

[B]

It is like abominable to me. And I guess this has all been known because people have been reading this novel and seeing the stage show for years. But this, again, as I said, this is all new to me. And so, you know, for the. To start, I think Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande are good in this for the most part, but I don't think their performances are very well handled by the direction. And I think it's kind of number to number how much I even buy what's going on between them. So that's just like, that's at the forefront of the story. And a lot of people love the first movie. And you can already see in the reaction to this new movie that there's a lot of like either letdown or frustration or outright kind of like, God, you really. You fucked this. You know. But to me, I'm just like, this is just a continuation of where I was at the end of the first one, which is that these. The films don't look very good. The way that they're lit is bizarre given the way the amount of detail and Time that has been put into the production design and costuming. But to me, the ultimate issue is just. It feels like a real problem of story and that it has, like, completely upended something. And this is just personal to me. But the wizard of Oz is very personal to me. And what that book is about and what that movie is about are two very distinct things that found a way to kind of coexist. The book is this, you know, big allegorical story about, really, money in America in the late 1800s.

[C]

And the follow the Yellow Brick Road.

[B]

Which is all about the gold standard and the silver standard. And it's like a book about populism. And, you know, it's all in the text. If you read it, you can see it's like Animal Farm. It's just like. It's very clearly, metaphorically about something in society. The movie is not clearly about that. The movie is really more this, like, exploration of this girl's mind. And it's this Fantasia. It's a dream sequence where people from her real life find their way into this dream world. It's like an amazing adaptation of a book. It's very different. And if the book mattered to you a lot, you might sound like me talking about the wizard of Oz and the way that Wicked makes me feel. So, again, I'll just say this is completely subjective to me, but the actual execution of the story is just so weird and stupid. Like, I really can't believe that this is what this story is and that everyone loves this. It makes me feel a little crazy.

[C]

Following off what he said, maybe as the Wicked expert, you could answer the question for us, what is the moral of Wicked, this stage? Like, what. How does it end? And what are you supposed to take away from it?

[D]

The moral of Wicked is that power is abused to ostracize a certain class of person or animal. And I forgot to note that there was far too many animals in Wicked for good. And also about the relationship, like, the whole. The story of Wicked is the story of Elphaba and Glinda. And I think that, like, the first movie captured that in the marketing as well as in the movie pretty well. And the second movie, I think, really loses that. And I think the fact that, like, even for you, Amanda, that, like, it took to, like, almost the end of Act 3 of the movie to get the, like, oh, this is the real love story. Like, that is a real fumble. And I think part of that is because another, I think, failure of the movie is so many people are alone and they only intersect with someone else in the movie for a big lurch forward.

[B]

It's a really good point.

[D]

And so it's just a lot of parallel lines that then swerve to cross. And so I think you don't get that because you don't get sort of sense of any kind of interconnectivity between these people. And I think it's also shown why it feels so insane that you're like, so that guy is now the Tin Man. You're like, what the fuck?

[B]

It just feels so strained. And they're really bending so hard to try to make something fit into this world. They have decided to tell this story about these two characters. But can I answer how I perceive this story based on my limited experience of just Wicked and Wicked for good? Yeah.

[C]

I mean, I wanted her to speak to what the scene stage version is about because as we've discussed, this stage is a two act, two and a half hour show and this is four and a half hours. So a lot is added. And I don't really know how faithful this absolutely bonkers, baffling adaptation, which, like, I agree with you, I had a decent time, but I was like, what is going on? I mean, and where did the lion come from? But we'll get back to that. So. But I'm just curious about what all the people who love Wicked were actually responded to in the text.

[B]

Well, so you can tell me if this is also a critical part of the idea. Even before I knew there was gonna be a movie adaptation, just by looking at the COVID of the book or images from the stage musical, my perception of this was just like, this is a story that is meant to see the world through the eyes of a villain. And the way that someone who we understand to be a villain could be better understood with empathy. And that if you see what their experiences were and see how they got to the place where they are and see the way that soc like you're describing, that maybe we would have a little bit of a different perspective on how we all relate to one another.

[C]

Yeah, but like, is that. That's. So is Elphaba a villain, though? In the.

[D]

I think she's sort of like reclaimed. I think neither is really a villain or a hero. Like, I think they kind of swap places frequently. Glinda and Elphaba. And I do think that, like, one of the reasons why the musical and the first movie are so popular is cause people really find a lot of stories of acceptance, like from the, like from, you know, identifying with Elphaba or identifying, you Know with like some like the animals or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it just feels like completely spring loaded to be projected onto the queer experience or communities that have been cast out. Like, and so that character, the Alphabet character, you know, and then it's kind of double charged by, you know, shifting from Idina Menzel to Cynthia Erivo, a black performer. And then that loads the movie up even more. So by saying like, hey, if you put that valence on it, this can be a very deep story, which I think has power. Like, I think that conception of that idea is really interesting. And you know, we're talking about comic book movies and superhero stuff. Like this is something that good superhero stories can do. They can say like, you think that this person is the bad guy, the vigilante, but actual, I mean, that's fucking Batman. Batman is like at the beginning of this Batman story, it's like this fucking guy keeps thinking he can be better than a police officer. And then you see. So it's a very common structure. The problem that I have with it in this movie specifically is that it's totally undermined by the one dimensionality of the wizard and Madame Morrible and the fact that like, in order for a movie to movie, there still has to be this undynamic good versus evil structure where you're like, what does the wizard even want? Where does he come from? What does Madame Morrible want? What does she represent? Why do they, why do they hate animals? Like, we don't know anything about all of this stuff.

[C]

My friend Gilbert Cruz from the New York Times, like, what is the political structure of Oz? Like, what am I even trying to. Like, seriously, I can't understand it. Who's the governor? Like what is. And. But that's an inherited position. Like what's, what's Munchkin Land districting? Like, I don't understand.

[D]

I don't have a lot of answers on that. I was just gonna say, like, I think that also for me, that's why I was so annoyed that Fiero's role, like when Glinda's crying over Fierro or like, you know, Fiero and Alphabet together, I was just like, this is such a distraction from like what this was like sort of supposed to be about and moved away from it. But to answer your question about the political structure of Oz, I think that also in part of the stretching and like for. I thought of this last year too. I always think of it as like Silly Putty. It's like, it's like when you print something on Silly Putty. And then you stretch it out so it's all still there. Yeah, that's exactly what this movie feels like to me. And I kind of cannot understand how the same writer wrote the stage that wrote the movie. Cause I'm like, why would you destroy your own work this way? Like, I do not get it. Because they added, you know, they added in the two new songs. And I think that, like, it forever, whatever reason.

[C]

Which are the two new. Yeah.

[D]

Yes. Ariana Grande's solo and Cynthia Erivo's solo. That is not no good deed. I forget the name of it. I'll look it up in a second. But they each get a song for themselves. It's in the first half of the movie. So they use it for, like, exposition.

[C]

And no Place Like Home is one of the new songs. I wonder.

[B]

Heinous.

[C]

Fucking heinous. I was like, this feels like they wrote this for a tie in.

[D]

Yeah. And I think that those two songs get the most, like, pause. They get the most gravity, excuse the pun in the movie. And I just think it's like a total waste. They contribute nothing and they're totally forgettable songs. But I think in adding in all this extra stuff, you really lose the sense of the world. And it feels so disconnected. Because, like, I thought that the reveal of Oz in the first movie was kind of exciting. You're like, oh, this is like this, you know, pretty, like, magical place and whatever. But then it just becomes like this, like, dark cave that it feels like they return to time and again. And you have, like, no idea what the geography is like, either. Like, how long does it take to get from Munchkinland to Oz? Like, I thought it took Dorothy a while on that.

[C]

Are those the only two places in Oz?

[D]

I believe there's others, but those are the two that we know of.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Is Shiz located in Munchkinland?

[D]

I don't know.

[B]

Is this a different. These things, like, don't matter unless there's failure in the storytelling, which makes you ask those questions. That's really the point that I'm making, is like, if you're going to build out this whole world and try to fit. Because nobody was watching the wizard of Oz in 1939. And saying, like, what is the governing body of the Wizard? Like, the movie just swepts you away. You know, this movie doesn't sweep you away. This movie makes you go, what? Why is that happening? And that's a huge problem with the storytelling. And I think you're right that it's probably mostly in the scripting and it's a problem.

[D]

Yeah. And I just think like they added in so much literalism too. It's just like it doesn't need to be so literal. Like people will get it. I don't know.

[B]

That's my whole thing with the wizard of Oz components of it. Because if you accept that both versions of the story are very metaphorical, then trying to understand why there's this desire. I honestly couldn't make heads or tails of it. I was watching it and I watched it with my 4 year old daughter and she was like, this is probably the best movie that has ever been made. There's just a tremendous amount of Glinda in this movie. This is very much Glinda's movie.

[C]

The pink dresses are wonderful.

[B]

The bubble is crack. There's things in the movie, of course, that are cool. There's really cool design in this movie. Some of the songs are good. I do think For Good is really, really good. We listened to that in the car as soon as we went home. It's not like a zero. The movie is not a disaster. But it raised such frustration. Which is the first word that you used, Juliet and such. I just found it really enervating trying to understand what it's trying to accomplish.

[C]

Well, I mean, I agree and that's why I asked Juliet what is the. At least the original stage production that has resonated with millions of people trying to accomplish. Because the movie could not communicate it to me.

[D]

Ye.

[C]

Once they bring in like the Reddit Easter egg, Wizard of Oz tie ins. Preposterous. Just absolutely silly, you know?

[B]

Yeah. So is Dorothy a component in the stage musical?

[D]

Yes, but not like. No, Someone like plays her, but you only see allusions to her. Like she's not like a walking body like she is in Wicked for good.

[B]

Yeah. I mean her, she's kind of introduced as like a side villain in the story. It's like this is just some girl who landed in a to it. Like it literalizes the tornado and like the. The bridge between worlds. Like it's very like Thor, the dark world where you're like, she could ride on a rainbow all the way to Oz. Like, that's not what this fucking wizard of Oz is about. It's a dream. Am I crazy?

[C]

No. And then she literally kills Elphaba's sister, who's definitely like a petty fascist. So again, I don't understand how she got her power to enact all of that stuff.

[B]

Because her mother was magical.

[C]

No. Her father was the governor and she Inherited the job from Father, which I read on, like, one of the little poster news printouts, like Munchkin Gazette or whatever.

[D]

Right, but you're doing two different definitions of power. Amanda's referring to her political power and Sean's referring to her wizardry.

[C]

Wizardry, exactly.

[B]

You served as the opinion editor at the Munchkin Gazette for six years or nine years. How long was it?

[C]

No, I was working on the tabloid that the spongebob steals at some point to learn that he has to go to the wedding to paint everyone.

[B]

All right, B, O, Q.

[C]

Okay. So they literally kill her. And then also she's like. So Dorothy is like a murderer in the text of Wicked for good. And then when they finally get to the song for good, she is just like a real girl trapped in a basement cellar, like, in a cellar, suffocating for the extent of, like, three songs. And I kept being like, but Dorothy can't breathe and you're gonna have to let her out if you want everything else to continue. So they really literalized it way too.

[B]

Much for me in terms of it being stretched. Can you give me an example, besides the two songs, of something that's been added to this story? Like, is there a set piece or a moment? Cause going from two and a half hours to four and a half hours is insane. And I just wanna pitch a theory about this. That because the first act is so important and so big and the first film is 2 hours and 40 minutes, I wonder if there's just a ton of padding in the back half so that the second movie turned out to be not one hour and 27 minutes, which would seem uneven relative to the previous kind of expansive, epic experience of the first film.

[D]

Well, I even just felt like the last 10 minutes, I was like, you're taking a really long time to get her back in that bubble that we saw the beginning of the first movie. I think the way that it stretches, like, they just add in, like, there was more around as Long as yous Mind, which is like the love song between Elphaba and Jonathan Bailey Fiero, which I. And, like, I think that they really. They do this in both movies. They kind of interrupt the songs to have some movie action and then go back to the song. So I would say they sort of like add in scenes like here and there without. And then the two wholesale new songs. But. So it's not necessarily like this is like a brand new thing, but it's like along the path, they add in extra scenes of how they got there. And then the main thing I would say that is really, really turned up is the animals. Like, there's not. There's not like all of these confrontations with the animals. Elphaba does, like, find Dr. Dillamund the goat again and like, realize that he's, you know, can't speak or whatever. But there's just way, way, way more animal interactivity. There's not really like, as I recall, perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't really recall the equivalent of like a Noah's Ark kind of scene happening in the stage show.

[C]

So this thing where the goat can't speak is text based and not that Peter Dinklage was no longer available.

[D]

That's correct.

[C]

I definitely thought I was like, oh, they didn't want to. There was like a scheduling or a money thing. And I know they filmed this all at once, but that's what I assumed.

[D]

No, it's canon, if you will.

[B]

I'm genuinely astonished by your soft zag on Wicked for Good because there's so much animal stuff in it. I know you hated that in the first film.

[C]

Well, they don't sing and they don't sing.

[B]

I have a question about that. Sure. Why do the animals forget how to speak when they are in captivity?

[D]

I think that they do something to them, like give them drugs or whatever. Do we see that at some point to maim them? No, I don't think so. Okay. But it's.

[B]

So we just have to assume that like, because their, like, animalhood has been taken from them, that they can no longer speak.

[D]

I think so.

[C]

I mean, what is this world like, the animals?

[D]

As you know, I'm not pro animal, so that's very tricky for me.

[C]

It's same like, we should be nice to them, you know, they shouldn't suffer. And obviously they're like in a very amorphous metaphor here, you know, for like all things that are.

[B]

You're dismissively saying animals should not suffer is really. You guys are bordering on evil. Like, animals are obviously incredibly important. Important to this ecosystem and to our ability to living creatures.

[C]

Okay, but so the animals. So there's the Noah's Ark scene, but. But that nice bear needs to talk to Elphaba. And that's like a family point of family connection. I'm also softer on bears because of Paddington right now. Sure, that's big in our house. So I guess those other animals were wandering around. But, like, that didn't read to me as like, the animals have taken control. There was no ghost singing. Also, you know, I had seen the Original Wicked. So I knew that a goat singing was a possibility. Then there's the scene with the cages. But, like, that was pretty quick, you know?

[D]

Yeah. But even that, like, I think stretches it out. And then I think a lot of the stuff between Elphaba and Fiyero is also sort of.

[C]

Are there animals, too? But there aren't animals in that.

[D]

No. But I'm just saying in terms of, like, what's longer? But there are some. Like that, like, Noah's Ark scene, maybe I just hated it. I was like, this feels long. And I think there's some other times where, like, just, like, Elphaba's alone. That was my takeaway, is, like, Elphaba's alone a lot in this show.

[C]

She definitely has, like, saved the animals scribbled on various posters in her tree room just for her.

[B]

Like, yeah, big time. Krasinski whiteboard in a quiet place. Energy there where it's like. I'm pretty sure she'd remember to save the animals if that was the guiding principle of her life for several years in which she was living in exile. This movie is idiotic. Guys, what is going on?

[D]

Another thing that I think was just, like, stretched out was, like, the fight scene, which I thought in some ways was really charming. Like, they do, like, meet again after, you know, Nessa dies and everything. But, like, that was stretched out too. Like, there's just, like, more fluff in there. There's not like Glyndon. There's not, like, one of them just, like, looking around and then the other arrives. Like, they just. They just add stuff in, like, at every juncture, basically every stop along the way. To make it feel longer. Yeah.

[C]

In the play or in the musical. Why? So Nessa turns evil because of Bach?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, because of Bach.

[B]

Because she's been rejected.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Because she's in love with him and he's in love with Glenda.

[C]

Got it.

[B]

And he finally comes clean about that. And then she, you know, creates, like, an ice, like, circumstance in which all the Munchkins are not allowed to leave the country.

[C]

Right, right.

[B]

And that whole plot line is extremely strange. And that explains why the Munchkins are extremely happy that the Wicked Witch of the east has been killed. Like, these are the kind of plot contrivances that, like, happen over and over again in the last hour of this movie. The same with Bok becoming the Tin man, where Nessa Rose channels her hidden magical powers to make him a man made of tin.

[D]

Because why, what happens is. And so this is also stretched in the Musical, I believe. I'm sorry if I get some of this wrong. I'm very afraid of the wizard, the Wicked fandom. But I believe in the musical, Nessa is holding, like, won't let Bach leave, but has not created this ice, like, conditions. It's more focused on Bach and she's less dictatorial, though. She is, you know, grieving the loss of her father and very focused on Bok. But it is almost. That is the actual, like, this boy doesn't love me. That's not Glinda. It's Nessa Rose. And so what happens is Bok tries to leave, and then she tries. Nessa casts a spell to, like, change how his heart feels. And then to save the botched job by Nessa Rose, Elphaba accidentally turns it into the Tin Man.

[B]

But, like, why a man made out of tin, like, in the novel?

[C]

Because he doesn't need a heart. That's what she says. She's like, don't worry, he's not gonna need a heart in this new one, because the Tin man wants the heart. You know, I mean, I didn't.

[B]

I know, I know. It's just so straining.

[C]

Like, I honestly, when Fiyero shows up, the scarecrow was when I was just like, get out of here.

[D]

Because that happens at the very end of the musical, if I recall correctly. Like, he's not really in it that much after as long as you're mine. And it's sort of like a reveal. Part of the reveal of the end is that they get to be together. It's not just. Just like, oh, she's alive. But, like, that's more clear. Also, there's no, like, Terrence Malick imagery of, like, walking across the horizon in the musical. In the stage, I was like, oh.

[C]

So we've moved into Dune 3.

[D]

Like, I was just like, this is not. This is not for me. But that is all, like, you know, extended as well. And I. I think, you know, you guys talked about Ariana Grande and, like, how she's still so good in this. She is. She's really robbed of the best song, like, in the musical. It starts with thank goodness, which is, like, this really rueful song. Amanda and I previewed this on jam session. I was really looking forward to it. It's such a beautiful song about faking happy, basically. And, like, you think you're happy, but you're actually not. And, you know, she seemingly has everything that she wants. And then the musical, it's like, so it's not just about, like, oh, you finally engaged to this guy, like, great. It's more about, like, you have everyone's adoration and you're in charge, but she's, like, still not that happy. And I feel like they just. They took away all of the nuance. So the fact, like, you're. Sean, you're right. The fact, like, we're questioning all these plot points is because there's no, like, ambiguity. Ambiguity to live in here. Nothing that's, like, fun to be like, well, maybe it's this or maybe it's that.

[B]

It's just trying to tie everything up. That is part of what is magical about the film. But if you know the book, you know that there's rational explanations for why those characters exist. Like, the Tin man and the Scarecrow are metaphors for industrial workers and farmers. Like, that's the idea. And so you can, like, port that idea over to the movie where you're like, they live on a farm. There's this time of, like, economic crisis in America in the 1930s. Like, there's all of these things that make coherent sense. So you accept the magical quality of the story. This movie is like, we're gonna tie up all those loose threads so you can be like, here's why he's a Tin Man. That's not important. That's not interesting. And the movie goes to great lengths. But then, furthermore, I had this experience because after the movie's over, my daughter is like, wait, so why is Fierro the Scarecrow? And so now she's gonna go back and watch the wizard of Oz and be like, that's Fierro. I'm like, that's not fucking Fierro. That's some guy who works on Dorothy's farm. All right, come on. Why are we doing this? I'm sorry. I could not do this episode without just being like, you have mangled something that is very true and very deep, and you have ruined it. I'm sorry.

[D]

I think that's why. You know, I've said this before. I don't have an emotional connection to the wizard of Oz. And I think Wicked is better enjoyed, like, separate from the wizard of Oz, because then you don't have to carry any of the burden of, like, well, this is actually how it goes in this true classic.

[B]

I actually would have been content to do that, I think, as much as I could have if it didn't insist that it actually was the wizard of Oz, you know? And that is really what the final hour of the movie is about.

[C]

I mean, and, like, Dorothy's running around and like the profile is just not Judy Garlands. And they skated too closely, but then they do a whole shadow thing and you understand why. But I was like, nope. I can tell that the profile. I don't understand most of the illusions, but I was completely baffled by the ruby slipper stuff and I'd like to talk about it.

[B]

Right. So in this version of the story, the ruby slippers, who do they actually go to? Nessarose at first?

[D]

Well, they're.

[C]

Yeah, they're Nessa Rose at.

[B]

And they're white. They're not red.

[C]

I think they're silver.

[B]

You'll find silver and they become red when she channels her magical powers or channels her rage or what?

[C]

Elphaba gives them power, right?

[D]

Yes. Yeah, Elphaba. Just like, I'm gonna make you happy by helping you walk or like levitate.

[C]

And feel the way you felt when Bok liked you or something.

[B]

But do we see Dorothy wearing them and they're silver at a certain point. So why is that?

[C]

She sets off on the yellow brick road and they're silver. And they're silver for the rest of the time? I don't know.

[B]

What does that represent? I'm sure there's wicked heads up.

[D]

They don't have the power anymore is my guess. Like when they're not helping you feel a certain way or something. I don't know. It was very confusing. I don't have an explanation. What?

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

I'm sure there's an idea there that I'm not getting. But I really think this dramatic and iconic change is very odd.

[C]

But then there's like the close up of her walking away with the silver shoes and the little socks and la's, like that's on trend, but they're not red.

[B]

Can we talk about the ending?

[C]

Thank you, Juliet.

[D]

You sure can.

[C]

I mean, first of all, the 45, truly, what on God's earth is happening at the end of this film?

[B]

Well, okay, so at the. At the. I don't know if this is what number ending this is for you, but nearer to the end, we learn that Elphaba, when she is actually. When she's been melted by Dorothy, when she throws water on her at the end of the wizard of Oz that she actually faked her own death. Pulled a kind of now you see me situation where she went into a.

[C]

Trapdoor where Dorothy was previously suffocating to death while they sang for good. Let me ask before we do that, was Dorothy in on the plot?

[B]

I don't think so.

[C]

On the Faking of the death?

[D]

I don't think so.

[B]

I don't think it doesn't seem that way.

[D]

So then Elphaba just asking questions, no, bad questions.

[C]

At a brainstorm. Which is literally what the script of this movie is.

[B]

But it's like, so Elphaba fakes her own death so that she can run off with the scarecrow and have sex forever in solitude. But she can never return to Oz, and she can never be accepted. And she's willing to live in infamy for eternity as a true representation of evil in Munchkinland, while Glinda gets to exist as the beautiful, perfect white avatar of grace and decency inside of this world.

[C]

But she lets the animals come out of their hovels.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But, like, what is that message? What the hell is the movie trying to tell us?

[D]

Well, I think Glinda's been changed for good, and she'll be leading with goodness. So Elphaba and her values and morals will live on through Glinda. As you noted, the white savior, not green.

[B]

But there's a moment where Glinda could say, no, she was my friend and she actually wasn't that bad. But she chooses to say, I knew her.

[D]

I think that because I knew you.

[C]

See, even I knew it. Even I got it.

[B]

If Glinda has learned the lessons of Elphaba, why would she not say to the Munchkins, no, actually, Elphaba was decent, and she was thrust into this power game by the wizard.

[D]

She's still figuring it out. You know, she can only be her. But she's trying to be a good version of her Glinda the good.

[C]

I don't disagree.

[B]

Does the play. Does the musical end like this?

[D]

Yes, it does.

[C]

I had the same. The only. The other credit I'll give to the film is that there was about four minutes there when I thought that the film. I don't know. I was living in a delusional dream state, much like this film. But I thought it was gonna end with the first ending. And so I was like, what? Elphaba just dies? What the fuck is that? But it at least had me, you know, in its grip of, like, oh, wow, they're killing off Elphaba. I don't know if this lesson is any better, which is she's not de. She's just, like, getting it on with the scarecrow. I'd like to talk about their. Well, I'd like to talk about all of them, but what is the line? It's not lying, it's looking at things through different eyes.

[D]

Right.

[C]

I find that condescending and upsetting.

[B]

But that's the whole theme of the movie.

[D]

Sure.

[C]

But, like, that's not. It's. What about use your own eyes to a different understanding, Dumbasses.

[B]

Whoa.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. All right. The real news. That's some Tucker Carlson shit right there. There's only one truth.

[D]

I just.

[C]

I was like, that is a really mean thing to say to both people. I did also feel that turning Jonathan Bailey into the scarecrow was upsetting for me personally, because that man is adorable.

[D]

Just not enough Jonathan Bailey in this movie. So disappointing.

[C]

So wonderful. He didn't really pop for me in the first one and the second one, I was like, oh, look at this guy.

[D]

You know, he's so great. Every time he's on Ken's screen, I'm like, okay, this is nice.

[C]

Same.

[D]

But he's so charming. I can't say. Just like.

[B]

That wasn't the most credible post sex scene I've ever seen in a movie. I'm just gonna put that out there. I wasn't like, wow, they definitely just banged. There was not a lot of heat between those two actors.

[C]

Absolutely none. But I still was like, I was interested enough. I did think to myself, I guess I should watch this season of Bridgerton while watching.

[D]

Just go back and watch season two.

[C]

No, that's what I meant. His season. His season of Bridgerton. Because you talk about it so much and you're like, he's good. So I'm pro Jonathan Bailey. But so the double whammy of number one. They've, like, retconned the scarecrow into this. Cause, I don't know, care about farmer's rights or whatever. And then they don't.

[B]

That's the point. I know they're like, this guy can be saved by making him a scarecrow.

[C]

But then they've also, what, put, like, all of this Patrick on him and the crazy, you know, scarecrow wig and, like, shout out to hair and makeup, who had quite a time and are doing great work. But I was like, no, I wanna see Jonathan Bailey. That is why I came to the theater.

[B]

But we get the whole part where he gets a brain from the wizard in the wizard of Oz. And then does that actually happen in this world? And then does he have a brain with Elphaba or is he just a brainless scarecrow who's gonna. He's like a fuck buddy forever with no, like, ability to make decisions.

[D]

They don't literalize the Dorothy travel party in the musical stage version.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

And so you don't really have to ask this question. You're just sort of like, oh, they've been reunited.

[B]

But they literally show us this in the movie though.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. It's sort of.

[C]

So he's not the Scarecrow.

[D]

What'd you say?

[C]

He's not the Scarecrow in the stage musical.

[D]

He is. But they don't have you like these interstitials of Dorothy and the Scarecrow and the lion and the Tin man, like walking down the yellow brick road and then arriving in Oz. Like you don't really see this stuff happening. Like you're not part of their journey in Wicked, the stage musical. So it's like not a distraction, I.

[B]

Just want to say. So maybe so listeners understand. Like, I do get that the stage musical can kind of of exist as extratextual, like outside of the experience of the novel and the original film. And you can be like, this is its own standalone thing. It's like a reinterpretation of this mythology in this world. And I would have been totally cool with that if the movie didn't bend over backwards in an incredibly base, cheap marketing way to be like, this is the wizard of Oz. And just so you know, this is what the wizard of Oz is actually all about.

[C]

And what they want is the reaction of your wonderful four year old daughter to go home and be like, well, now I guess I gotta look for. For Fierro.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[C]

The 1939 wishes.

[B]

That to me is the mistake of the movie. That makes me kind of crazy on this episode where I'm just like, why are you making me think about all this stuff if you don't really have the follow through in terms of the connective tissue.

[D]

I'm sorry to name names, but I think that's a Jon M. Chew problem. And as you know, I'm a longtime fan of Jon M. Chu, but I read a lot of his interviews and I think that he was. He has said he's a huge fan of the wizard of Oz and I feel like he had a desire to really make his mark on this version of Wicked by integrating the wizard of Oz in more fully. He teased it in the press tour around the first movie. He came back to it time and again. And I really feel like obviously he didn't write the script, but I do think there's a lot of ways in which the wizard of Oz is involved in like, in like a non scripted way where you're just like seeing it.

[B]

Right.

[D]

And I really think those are a lot of his choices. I Guess I am blaming him. But I'm just maybe trying to like, explain why I think that comes up so much.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the movie itself is obviously, like. It's an ingenious thing that Universal has done by splitting this into two parts, by making an event out of it. They marketed it so brilliantly. And for the first film last year, and the connection between Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo. I heard you guys talking about that terrible thing that happened to Ariana Grande on jam session. Like, their bond is cool. Like, I like that in the world that they've become close. All of that stuff is really smart. It's just. It's the Avengersification now of like. Like stories outside of that stuff. But, like, I didn't. I didn't invent comic book movies, you know, like, me liking comic book movies doesn't mean that every movie event now needs to have this big mythological connective tissue to stories that go back 100 years. That's, you know.

[C]

But we live in a dumb world where that worked in for comic book movies and just like, thus for the movie industry. And so the Hollywood is terrible at being like, oh, look, look, that worked that way. So now we're gonna make 45 different versions of it just like that.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And in one sense it was a good decision because it did work. Like, I don't think this movie is gonna make as much money as the original Wicked. And we should talk. I would like to talk about the press tour, Oscar chances, all of that sort of stuff. But, like, to your point, this is like a success for Universal and this will make money. Is it successful artistically? I don't think anybody on this podcast thinks so.

[B]

No.

[D]

No, I don't think so. I think also the other thing that's just really lost is that there's no sense of camp in this movie. Whereas the first one had it. The first one with more of the choreography, honestly, more of bow and yang.

[B]

I thought the fight scene was the one time when it was very fun and there were a lot of laughs in my theater during that sequence.

[D]

And that was fun. I thought and felt appropriate. I think the. The superhero ification of the movie really eliminated that and made it too dark and, like, didn't allow you to, like, really have the same kind of fun. And, like, there's not going to be a viral dance trend that comes out of this movie. And I feel like that was such a win for the first one.

[C]

It was the viral dance trend in.

[D]

The first with the books, when they're. When they're singing. I think it's popular. It's Ariana Grande and Bo and Yang.

[C]

So it wasn't when they were doing the mime stuff.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Popular.

[D]

That's a banger.

[B]

That's a banger. Sure. That might be my favorite song.

[D]

Yeah. So anyway, I just feel like that it's not fun. Like, they really lost the sort of silly light fun that is the main tone of Wicked. Even though the ideas around acceptance and friendship is sort of, I think, why people get sentimental over it.

[B]

It's an interesting thing because Ariana Grande obviously has been super praised for her performance in both movies. She has a really, really good comic touch as an actress. You can see this if you watch her on snl. She's really adept. And it's kind of Disney kid stuff where you kind of learn that there is a performance style that is necessary and material like this. I think, to make this stuff work. I don't think Cynthia Erivo has it as much, but it's okay because of kind of who Elphaba is as a character, that the storminess of that character doesn't necessitate it as much. But for all the time we spend with Glinda in the movie, she doesn't get to be that fun or funny in the movie. Cause she's kind of in this mode of crisis. She's trying to figure out, like, what is the right way to exist in this world. And so it totally diminishes all the things that you're describing. Juliet.

[C]

I also still. So she's in charge of Glinda. What are her roles or in responsibilities as Glinda?

[D]

I think she's the figurehead of all of Oz now that the wizard is gone.

[C]

Well, what about before? Because when the wizard's still around when the film starts. But she is Glenda the Good.

[B]

Yeah. She's kind of the Hillary Clinton of this world.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Is she Secretary of State? And now she's president.

[B]

I did write in the notes that I did see Madame Morrible as the Marjorie Taylor Greene of this place. I just want to say, listen, Yo. Jeff Goldblum and Michelle Yeoh are wonderful performers and have been great in movies that we have all loved. They are terribly miscast in these movies. Like, they can't sing all licks.

[C]

It is. It is really, really, really tough sledding, especially with Michelle Yeoh, who, like, looks amazing. And I was like, I have a lot of questions about this regimen and also this regime. But I. It's also not a Fit in the movie. She's not a fit.

[B]

It's crazy.

[D]

I think he's okay. Like, I think. I think because he doesn't sing with anyone else, it's sort of like, this is the silly wizard and I just find him so fun to watch. It's like, whatever. Michelle Yeoh, like, impacts really good songs because she's like, singing with Ariana Grande and it's just like, no, this is not. This is not working. It was very disappointing and thank goodness it's a great song.

[B]

Yeah, that's. I mean, that's just a trick of the casting. And obviously Michelle Yeoh had amazing success in Crazy Rich Asians with John Chu. You can see why they would cast her in this part. But it's just like she's literally singing a song with Ariana Grande, who is like in the S tier of great movie musical performers alive right now.

[D]

Totally. So she sounds amazing in this movie too. Like, she finds a different register. It's incredible.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I actually like Jeff Goldblum, though. In defense of Jeff Goldblum over here.

[B]

I think he has obviously the oddity of the wizard kookiness, but his one singing moment, I was like, gosh, this is just. It just felt like amateur hour. Like, I was like, this is $180 million movie. You let these people sing in the movie. Just double.

[C]

I was just also like, why are we spending time with him? Because I know what's going to happen to him. Like, there's no tension here whatsoever. So it just felt like filler. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's nothing better than having friends who support you and your passions.

[B]

Think of all of the times on this show when you've had to sit here and listen to me talk about my love for physical media and all of my recent Blu Ray splurges.

[D]

Yeah. Yes.

[C]

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[B]

Okay. You mentioned you think this movie is going to make less than the previous film. I wanted to ask you both about this. So Wicked made $758 million and so Wild and made $474 million in this country, which is a staggering amount of money for a stage movie musical in 2024. So you think under 800 million?

[C]

I do it does not seem like the Juice is there even within the Wicked fan community in the same way that it was. I went to a fan screening, an early fan screening last night. Pretty much silent in my theater throughout.

[B]

It was pretty silent in mine too.

[C]

You know, like no laughs, no cheering, no nothing. And like people were in pink and green. Like I was. I was there among the faithful.

[D]

So the mess, if you like the movie, it's like kind of heartbreaking. You're like, you fucked this up. You drop just like drop the ball.

[B]

Do you think that will be the general sentiment among superfans?

[D]

I do. I've talked to two other people not on this podcast who've seen the movie. And they both are like, yeah, this ain't one of them. Was like, I can't sleep. I'm so mad at how bad this is.

[B]

That's so interesting. So the pre sales for the movie have been incredible. Like, because people love the first film so much, you know, you and I were very much on the outside on that one where most, most people really liked that first movie. And so I think what you could see here is like an insane first weekend performance. Like 130, $150 million and then possibly a steep decline. But I don't know. You never know. Like, it's been a very quiet last six weeks at the box office. And I think people have been waiting for this for Zootopia 2, for some of the awards movies to open more widely over the next two weeks and then all leading up to Avatar. So like in theory, yeah, you gestured.

[C]

At me, but you got a gesture at Laila.

[B]

I was so pleased to hear you repping for firing it out. I know.

[D]

No pun intended. Once again.

[C]

See, let's just.

[B]

Can I tell you what I did last night? I started watching a four and a half hour documentary about the movie Aliens called Aliens Expanded.

[C]

All right, sounds good.

[B]

And it features at great length James Cameron and Sigourney Weaver talking about the movie. And I was just like, jim Cameron is the fucking man. He speaks so directly and overconfidently about everything. It's genuinely, genuinely inspiring.

[C]

Sigourney Weaver forever.

[B]

Yeah, she's great.

[D]

Sean, how much time have you spent watching him do the press tour around the submersible?

[B]

You know, that's a little outside my personal interest, but I know it's in your zone.

[D]

It's very much in mine. And if you'd like to discuss it, I'm available later.

[B]

Sounds good.

[C]

No, but let's talk about this press tour a little bit because as Juliet and I talked a little bit about on Jam session, it has been in a lower key, mostly because of the series of unfortunate and scary incidents that have affected Ariana Grande and as a result Cynthia Erivo as well, because they are very bonded. But we haven't had the viral moments, the holding space and just the. The good fun juju that was around for the first one and there just like hasn't been as much. So I do wonder whether, you know, I think there is enough awareness from the last one and it's close enough together. Like you're right. People who went to see the first one will go see the second one.

[B]

I think so.

[C]

But it doesn't have the same like national curiosity aspect to it of like, well, what's going on there? Or this has taken it over in the way that the first take also.

[D]

Don't you think part of the box office the first time was people saw it many times.

[B]

That obviously is always a factor when a movie is getting up over $300 million domestically. You've got to have reaper viewings like.

[D]

Sing alongs and stuff. I just don't see that happening at all.

[C]

Right. I mean this. I really would not want to be in a sing along theater for this. Cause it's either people trying to hit those notes with Ariana Grande or nothing.

[D]

Yeah. It's just. And I know they're doing some back to back screening so you can basically the whole thing together. But that's a huge time commitment in a different way.

[B]

Yeah, I'm just trying. I'm looking at. So historically what you get is the sequel usually makes more, sometimes significantly more than the original film. And let's just use the Lord of the Rings movies as a comp because I think that that's a fair kind of.

[D]

Why not go to Avatar one and Avatar two?

[B]

Well, there was a huge gap between movies there.

[D]

So I'm thinking more like just love Avatar.

[B]

The Way of Water did very well. Did the Way of Water make more money than it probably did just because of inflation, but. So the first Lord of the rings movie made 900 million worldwide. The second made 920 and the third made 1.1 billion.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So I think it'll be interesting if it makes less. That's a big indictment on the movie. That's pretty uncommon for something like that to happen. But we'll see.

[D]

I think with the marketing, the vibes are just so bad. I was thinking about it. Amanda and I touched on this on Jam Session, the New York premiere. Cynthia Erivo was Sick. Allegedly. And so then Ariana Grande also declined to do interviews. The more that I thought about that after we talked on it, I was just like, that's super weird. She's like, out of solidarity. That's not the same as like the holding space moment. And I'm just like, there's gotta be something going on behind the scenes there that's just like this has really gone awry. I also would not be surprised if Ariana Grande is like, keep me away from everyone after what happened in Singapore. Plus, I mean, you know the gossip, the rumor is that she and Bob Ethan Slater have broken up. Which I think that has to be hard. Like, I mean, very high profile relationship.

[C]

Has he been on the trail?

[D]

It's been kind of funny. Yes, he has. And apparently they're always like far apart. I watch the Wicked One Wonderful Night Special and like, it's like a very big, like everyone's in an armchair. It's like the whole 10 person cast and they're like far away from each other. So I think there's been no interaction. That said, there was no public interaction between them from the first movie either. But I think there's a lot more, like reading between the lines right now.

[B]

It's hard to say whether something like that affects it or not. There's been this big discussion about whether or not being available for all these press opportunities is a good thing or a bad thing for movies. And you know, it's funny that, you know, I know Matt Bellany wrote about this recently. It's been discussed quite a bit. I think Chris and Andy talked about it on their show too. I just think it's like, about the material. Like, if people are interested in the movie. Like, no, people are not interested in Die My Love. Cause it's a very difficult art house film.

[C]

Yeah, A number of things went wrong with that, including that they used Katniss Everdeen and Robert Pattinson. And then people walk into a very small movie that opened in 2000 theaters, which is also like insane.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But this is a different story where, like, I don't know if people could have gotten enough of Ariana Grande and Cynthia Rivo around the first Wicked film. They loved seeing them together all the time.

[C]

And I do think that it buoyed it, but it's totally. But they were promoting something that in Wicked that has its own fan base and its own. So it's like awareness of a lot.

[B]

Of things and it was like intertwined in the film.

[C]

And I think that that's where it Works. I think that they help the IP and the IP helps them. But to do it without any IP.

[B]

At this point, that's a lesson to all the movie marketeers. Don't just play Flip cup with your two stars unless there's flip cup in the movie. You know what I mean? You need to make it about what the experience of the thing is gonna be about. Let's briefly talk about the Academy Awards. I heard you say this actually on Jam Session, and, you know, we've been slotting Wicked for good pretty comfortably into best picture for two months now because the first film got 10 Academy Award nominations. It won two Oscars for costume design and Best production design. And it's obviously. It was very, hugely appreciated by the community of movie makers. I think all of the branches found something to like about the movie. And then now we're like, ah, maybe it'll disappoint a little bit at the box office. It's clearly lower on the critical reception. The super fans may not feel as strongly about it. Is there a world where this is not nominated for Best Picture?

[C]

I have started wondering about it.

[D]

Doesn't deserve it, that's for sure.

[B]

Yeah, but that deserved don't count when it comes to the Best Picture. I'm not sure yet. I'm not ready to write it off, but I do.

[C]

Also, that conversation on Jam Session came up in light of the marketing run and the bad vibes, which would affect an awards campaign. And I do think that they ran a great. You know, they went straight from the press campaign for the movie into the press campaign for the Oscars. And Cynthia Rubin, Ariana Grande especially, were just out and about working it. And I think, understandably, they might not want to do that again.

[B]

Yeah, they will be nominated again, though. Both of them. I'm pretty sure both of them will be. Maybe Cynthia Erivo is a little in danger, but I don't. I think they both will. And because of that, they're gonna have to. They're gonna have to hoof it. You know, like, that's a lot of work to spend three months trying to tell people that you deserve to get a gold statue.

[D]

And Ariana Grande has signaled in every way possible that explicitly saying it, that she's basically done with music and just wants to be an actress. So I feel like this is very much what she wants right now. So I wouldn't be surprised if, like, you know, if she does get nominated to see her working for it.

[C]

Right.

[D]

I do feel like it's slightly different with Cynthia Erivo. Because she's Has a different kind of esteem. I'm sure she wants an Oscar. Not to, like, denigrate that, but as a Tony winner, she's, like, a little bit different.

[B]

I think how you approach it, I mean, I don't. It's impossible to know either of their motivations in terms of the award season. I do think that Ariana Grande has a significant chance to win.

[D]

She is great. She is so good in this role. She's gonna get fun to watch.

[B]

Yeah. And she's gonna get a lot of the high marks. And because she's at the center of so much of the story. So, like, I think it's probably reasonable to again, expect. Expect costume design and production design to be nominated. I think makeup and hairstyling will get nominations, maybe score. But I don't think so because score is super competitive this year. Sound and visual effects, maybe. I definitely don't think best editing is in play this year. It got best editing last year, which is just fucking heinous. Supporting actress. Here's who we're talking about. Okay. I don't know if you probably haven't seen all these movies, Julia, but just hang with us on this.

[D]

Almost impossible that I've seen any of this.

[B]

So both. So Teyana Taylor for One Battle After Another. Amy Madigan for Weapons. Ariana Grande for Wicked. Inga Ipsdotter, Lilias from Sentimental Value. Elle Fanning from Sentimental Value. Glenn Close from Wake Up Dead Man, Odessa Azion from Marty Supreme. We've not talked about her. Speaking of, I love La. Wonmi Moussako from Sinners. Gwyneth Paltrow from Marty Supreme. I don't see that happening. Or Regina hall, but this is kind of the bottom of the list.

[D]

List.

[B]

It's very possible that there's a. A big one battle swoon and that Tiana Taylor is a part of that swoon. And it becomes a night where that movie wins seven awards. It's also possible it goes the exact other way. And we haven't seen a lot of years where a film wins five, six, seven Oscars now. They tend to spread the wealth. This would be the way to recognize Wicked would be to award Ariana Grande. I could see that happening.

[C]

I can, too. I would be tough for that to win over Teyana Taylor in one battle after another. For me personally also, and just, you know, politically and in everything that implies.

[B]

Literally, the white Avatar, princess of Oz reigning over her.

[C]

She's just like. Just really, really not good. But she is very good in it. And I think if I hope she gets a couple weeks off. It seems unlikely, but let her rest for a little bit and then get back in the game for. For Golden Globes and start the campaign and it could happen.

[B]

Have you seen Marty supreme yet, Juliet?

[C]

No.

[D]

I'm looking forward to it, though.

[B]

I know I heard you say uncut gems was not your flavor, but there is a distinct New York energy in Marty Supreme.

[D]

Yeah, there was an uncut gems too.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I'm surprised to hear myself say I'm looking forward to it. Some days I am, some days I'm not. Today I'm like, yeah, that sounds kind of good. The Gwyneth Paltrow of it's appealing to me.

[B]

Yeah, she's.

[C]

She's good. But I, I.

[B]

It's Odessa Aon's time in that movie.

[C]

You know, you.

[B]

If movie rocks.

[C]

If you didn't like the 18 minute marketing stunt, though, I don't know whether this is going to be the experience that you're looking for. I love Marty Supreme.

[B]

Yeah, it's really great.

[C]

Okay, I want a jacket, but like, they gave one to Tom Brady instead, so.

[B]

A Marty supreme jacket. Tom Brady was wearing a Marty supreme jacket?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

He's part of like the greatest campaign.

[B]

I know. That's just not at all what I want to hear. Listen, I'm gonna call Josh and tell him, take that jacket off that New England patriot.

[C]

We should probably have a thing where just like for five minutes, Juliet and I have YouTube corner where she just tells me what she's watching on YouTube. And I guess I should just tell you what's happening on Instagram, like once a week for five minutes. That happened on Instagram.

[B]

That would be a good social media strategy. Yeah. Just keeping Sean up to date with the comings and goings of social media.

[D]

And then you clip it and then you do hashtag Tom Brady, Marty Supreme. You see what you get. Yeah, that sounds really good.

[B]

That sounds excellent. I did want to share this one tidbit that I thought was really interesting that Scott Feinberg from the THR had, which is that Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande could become the seventh and eighth performers to land multiple acting nominations for playing the same part in different years. Now, you already read this, right? This would have been a good quiz for you. I should have set it up as a quiz.

[C]

Well, but I don't remember, so I.

[B]

Okay, you wanna try to guess?

[C]

The two I remember. Cause I just read them were so Sylvester Stallone for Rocky. Rocky and Creed.

[B]

And Creed.

[D]

And then.

[C]

Cate Blanchett for Elizabeth And Elizabeth. The Golden Age.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Okay, so. But I don't remember any of the others. Juliet, jump in as well.

[D]

How many others are there?

[B]

That is. That's two. There's four more.

[C]

Okay, four more.

[B]

There's one very famous Oscar win in the second appearance of this actor.

[C]

Paul Newman. Paul Newman. Hud and no, not Hud. Hustler and Color of Money.

[B]

That's right. Right.

[C]

Okay, so let's see.

[B]

There's a tremendously iconic version of this.

[C]

Is it a franchise type thing, or.

[B]

Is it sort of.

[C]

I mean, is it a Godfather situation? So it would be Pacino.

[B]

Pacino, Godfather and Godfather Part Two.

[C]

Okay, and then we've got one more.

[B]

That you may not get, but you admire.

[C]

Oh, I did read this because it's Peter o' Toole and it's lion in Winter. And then I honestly didn't like a Samuel Beckett something.

[B]

Beckett.

[D]

No, it's just Beckett.

[B]

Yeah. And then the last one for the real heads is Bing Crosby for Going My Way and the bells of St. Mary's which just like wicked and wicked for good came out in consecutive years. He won for Going My Way and then appeared again in Bells. Have you seen The Bells of St. Mary?

[D]

No, but should I check it out tonight?

[B]

It's not a bad film. It's about a priest. It's about an Irish priest.

[D]

All right.

[C]

It's also a song on the Phil Spector Christmas album. Is it Bells of St. Mary? Yeah.

[B]

Oh, okay, cool. Did you see all the people who went to go see the Pope? What'd you think about that? All the cinema people?

[D]

I thought it was cool. Honestly, I thought it was cool. I think this pope seems pretty great.

[B]

He opened his arms to the artistic community and cinema. And frankly, we love cinema in Chicago.

[D]

Sports. Yeah, it's beautiful.

[B]

That's right. That's right.

[D]

He seems like a great guy. Good choice, everybody.

[B]

Where can we find you on the Internet and on podcasts.

[D]

On Mondays and Thursdays, you can find me on Bachelor Party. On Tuesdays, you can find me on Jam Session. And on Fridays, you can find me on Food News.

[B]

Wow, a podcasting freak. You're all over the place, too.

[D]

Honestly, too many.

[B]

I know you're all thinking, okay, Juliet, thank you for your time. Thank you for your wicked insight.

[D]

Thanks for having me, guys. It's an honor. Have a great rest of your podcast.

[C]

Thanks, Juliet. See you Tuesday.

[B]

Day.

[C]

Long day.

[D]

Late night. Love putting on your makeup, but hate taking it off.

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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[C]

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[B]

Available at your local Walmart. Okay, just me and you now.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

Tell the truth. You actually loved Wicked Part 2. You didn't want to reveal it in front of Juliet because you knew she was frustrated. It's your favorite movie of the year.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I've got the family costume for next year all set to go.

[B]

You're playing the lion.

[C]

I was going to say I'm the scarecrow. Yeah, no, I'm the nice bear. With all the stuff on her back.

[B]

You kind of have that energy.

[C]

Okay, I thank you.

[B]

The sweet bear. That's what I think of when I think of you.

[C]

My family nickname is actually Bear. That's what Zach calls me.

[B]

Oh, that's nice. That's not your energy at all. More of a cheetah, I would say. Okay. Train Dreams. Let's talk about this movie I've been telling you about, Train Dreams for like, honestly, nine months, since January.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, I saw the movie on my couch during virtual Sundance. And I did the thing that I always do, which is like I've had a full day. I've been podcasting. I get home, pick up my daughter from school, play with her for three hours.

[C]

Hours.

[B]

Go to bed, eat dinner.

[C]

And then fire to bed, eat dinner.

[B]

Go downstairs, put her to bed. I don't know.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And then fire up three Sundance movies in a row from, you know, 8pm through 1am terrible system. And I think it is a really a bad system. But I think I started watching this movie at like 10:30pm and usually when that happens, I get really tired and I'm like, I'll finish this tomorrow or something. And I stayed up all the way till 1:30 in the morning for this one. And Was really moved, really knocked out.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It's directed by Clint Bentley. I mentioned it's co written by Bentley and Greg Kuidar. Greg was on the show last year because these two guys have this partnership where they make movies and they kind of trade year to year who's the director and who's the co writer, producer. Last year their movie was Sing Sing, which we both really liked a lot. So if you liked Sing Sing or if you saw Jockey, which is Clint's first film, you know that it's very sincere guys, very, very kind of like direct, emotional filmmakers who are really interested in the human condition. This new movie is based on this Denis Johnson novella, which I had not read prior to seeing the movie and then kind of read through a little bit after I saw the film the first time. It's about a logger named Robert Greiner who works to build the railroads across the United States. And so he's constantly moving away from his home. And, you know, he eventually starts a family and he moves away from his family. And we watch really this entire guy's life unfold over roughly two hours. And the film is shot. It's very much a kind of a naturalistic look at the world in the early 1900s. What did you think of Train Dreams?

[C]

And so you have been talking about this for 10 months and you just keep saying it's like a beautiful movie about logging and the Pacific Northwest and like all this stuff. And you are not the film's best marketer, you know, is what I would say. Or you were not marketing well to me because I rolled my eyes every time you talked about this. And then I saw this movie and it is beautiful. It is beautiful and wonderful. And I guess it like, is about a logger and there, I mean, sure, logging happens.

[B]

There's a lot of logging in the film.

[C]

There is a lot.

[B]

And I'm not talking about letterboxd.

[C]

There is a lot of logging, but it is also. It's a movie about a family. And I thought. And a man dealing with his family. And it was absolutely upsetting and beautiful. And one of those things where you feel the emotions that you're supposed to feel very early on in the film. And it does keep grabbing you. It's like it really connects with the audience.

[B]

Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Cause the novella, just like the movie, is very episodic. And so it's kind of like Beat to Beat, Job to Job for Robert or, you know, he meets his eventual wife and played by Felicity Jones, which.

[C]

Is another Thing you didn't even tell me till I sat down. And I'm a pretty black licorice with Felicity Jones. And I was like, oh, no, she.

[B]

Was wonderful in this. Well, I was afraid you were gonna hate it.

[C]

She was wonderful in this.

[B]

I think she's. I mean, I do like her and have always liked her, so I was happy to see her, but I was a little worried that you were gonna be like, I can't with this, because I think this is such a nice mov. And, you know, I didn't want you to hate it. Honestly, sometimes I don't care if you hate a movie. But this was one where I was like, I really hope she doesn't get on the pot and be like, fuck this.

[C]

No.

[B]

But I think the book is very strange, and the movie takes some liberties with the book that I honestly don't love. Definitely the Robert Greiner character is not in the book. This beautiful, innocent, almost like angel type figure moving through this period in existence. He's kind of more complicit in some of the more unfortunate stuff that happens in the book. And so I think it does. It puts a different valence on the story, where this is more like a kind of a very innocent man trying to move through a very un. Innocent world. Whereas in the book, it's more like the world is cruel and it moves quickly and it's hard to live simply. And it's not a bad thing, but it is a very different perspective on it, especially in the first part of the book, some of which. Some specific things that they change. Nevertheless, Joel Edgerton is kind of my Felicity Jones. I never like Joel Edgerton. I've said on multiple pods, like, if you just take him out of other movies he's in and replace him with. Count the list of names. Jake Gyllenhaal, Andrew Garfield, like a bunch of other actors who I just like more.

[C]

That's definitely how you save Baz Luhrmann's the Great Gatsby.

[B]

It wouldn't save it, but it would improve it, in my opinion. But I usually just can't really connect to him as an actor. I thought he was very, very good in this. And it's a challenging part because he doesn't say a lot, this character. You really have to kind of live through his pained experience. He has a lot of trauma in the movie, and I thought he was very, very good. And it's not as showy as a lot of the best actor candidates that we've been talking about in the last couple Weeks. But he gives a great performance in this.

[C]

I mean, it is, I guess, a movie about trauma, but it doesn't. I don't think it ever says the word trauma, which is great. I think in general, you can control f any script in the world. And if it actually has the word drama stated, like bad movie, change it, even use your little thesaurus. But like, once we're stating it as text, that's the sign of, you know, over simplistic, structural. And this is just about. This is about loss. And so I, you know, I didn't read the novella and so I don't have that point of comparison, but I didn't mind, like the innocence or the almost obliviousness of like an aw shucksiness the character, because I thought it created a portal just into the. What happens when, like when you lose something and that is something that happens to all of us. But no matter how much evidence you have in the life around you, like, you don't expect it and you don't know how to navigate it. And so almost just like a lost person going through. I mean, you know, literally a lost person. To me, it was a novel recreation of it and very affecting. Like I was really fucking up.

[B]

It's very upsetting. There's stretches of the movie that are just deeply sad. And then there's a couple things that are extraordinary about it too. One, it's this amazing collection of character actors and actresses. You've got William H. Macy, probably the best performance he's given in years.

[C]

Ah, it's so good.

[B]

I didn't watch Shameless. I know he spent like 10 years making Shameless, but when we were teenagers, William H. Macy was the best character actor in America. Like, he really was in that stretch in the 90s and 2000s, as good as we got. And he's really quite good in this film as a fellow logger. Nathaniel Arcand in this movie. John Deal, a character actor I've always loved. Paul Schneider, Clifton Collins, who was the star of Clint Bentley's last movie. Jockey. Just really kind of a figures. My girl Kerry Condon swoops in for a minute, trying to do an American accent. She's doing her best, you know, it's not one of her skills. It's just not something she's great at. I got her back, though. She's trying. When we first talked about the movie in January, I kept saying, there's a shot in the movie that I never saw before where the camera is strapped to a log.

[C]

That was cool.

[B]

And at the very beginning of the movie, you see the camera following the log. It's kind of similar to how the camera is strapped to car doors all throughout one battle, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like every time somebody gets in a car, you can feel the door swinging close. Those kind of perspective shots of inanimate objects, there's not a lot of terrain of. I've not seen that before. I really love it. I've not seen that before. There's a couple of cool ones. And then without ruining the movie, the movie has a final 10 minutes where it really takes advantage of its digital photography and puts the character in a couple of positions that seem completely outside of the experience he's been having in this very natural, simple log cabin world that he's been living in. That just, like, swept me up, you know, like, you might feel the movie, like, drag a little bit kind of into the beginning of the third act, and then by the end, I was like, just deeply moved, you know, just like, hit me like a. Like a ton of bricks. So I think. I just think this is a really good film. It's a. It's a real paradox with Netflix because it's a movie that on a big screen would just take you down the river, you know, like, it really would be super powerful.

[C]

You watched it at home on your Sundance class, and it worked.

[B]

And it worked. Yeah. And it can work, and it should work, and people should watch it on Netflix. But I can't imagine it was made specifically to be seen as a streaming movie. It's great that more people will see it that way, but it doesn't feel like the ideal execution.

[C]

I don't think I know of a good movie that was made specifically for streaming, maybe with the exception of Triple Frontier.

[B]

That's the thing. There is a kind of movie that works well in that experience.

[C]

It's literally the only one. Even all the streaming ROM coms, I'm like, what if you had made this, though, to be good instead of on streaming? And then I just watched it on streaming.

[B]

That's a really good point. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, especially after seeing Regretting youg. I've got a lot of feelings.

[C]

I just couldn't be more excited.

[B]

Okay, Oscar chances for Train Dreams. Before we get to my conversation with.

[C]

Clint, it seems in the mix, you and I were talking on the way out of a recording the other day about the international features category this year and also our assumptions about which international or non English language features would make it into Best Beta. We have been based on Previous years. And based on me always yelling at you like it's an international academy counting big, reserving two, maybe even three slots. I don't know if that's gonna happen in the same way. And we're gonna talk about. So that's the next episode, right? It is. We'll do Psychotic Value.

[B]

We'll go back to best picture power rankings and sentimental value in the next.

[C]

Episode and regretting you. So it's sentimental value.

[B]

They're perfectly matched in so many ways. I honestly can't believe how close they are. Even though they could not have less in common. Yeah, we don't have to have that power ranking conversation yet. But I agree that there is a spot for a movie like Train Dreams because it is a movie that I've not met a person who's like, I didn't like that.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's really what you need. You need this movie to show up in, like, the number three or four spot on a lot of ballots to get bumped up and up. Because a couple of these movies are gonna be divisive. You know, I think Frankenstein's divisive. I think Wicked for Good's gonna be divisive. I think Avatar is gonna be divisive. These movies that feel on the bubble when you get a movie like this where everybody's like, damn, that was pretty good. I think J. Kelly is divisive, you know, like a bunch of these movies.

[C]

Listen, as you said, we've got three that we feel pretty confident about, though, for the life of me, I can't remember what the third one is right now. So two. Oh, no, I remember the third. Okay. Because I forgot about Hamnet, but. Hamnet, yes, yes. When is that coming out?

[B]

It opens November 26th in limited wide on December 12th. So we're gonna wait on this show to do it until the film is made widely available, which I think is. I think that's the right thing to do.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

That'll be an interesting conversation as well. Any other thoughts on Train Dreams before we go?

[C]

I thought it was lovely.

[B]

It's a nice movie. Let's go to my conversation now with a very nice guy, Clint Bentley. Very happy to have Clint Bentley here. You're here with Train Dreams. We didn't speak for Jockey, but I liked Jockey quite a bit. And then I talked to Greg Kuidar, your writing partner, Producing partner for Sing Sing. Yes. Another film that you were significantly a part of. But you're here now to talk strangers.

[A]

I'm glad to be here. I'm a big Fan.

[B]

Thanks, man.

[A]

I'll try not to geek out.

[B]

Please do. I encourage you to geek out as much as possible. I do want to start with Denis Johnson, who's an author that I like quite a bit. And I assume you do as well, since you adapted this novella. What's the first thing you ever read by him?

[A]

Actually, this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Back when it came out, I think it came out, like, 2014 or something like that. And it was just like one of the books to read that year. And so I read it. I didn't know who Denis Johnson was. I was on the road, I think, at the time. And it was a nice little slim. It's like 117 pages. And I read it. It blew my mind. And I just loved it so much. And it sent me down a path of reading everything I could by Dennis Johnson. I became a huge, super fan.

[B]

This is kind of a great place to start because it's very conquerable. Trying to start with Tree of Smoke is much more.

[A]

More challenging in some ways. But then in other ways, like Tree of Smoke is so narratively, if you were thinking about pulling one and thinking, like, all right, which book of his am I going to adapt? That one, at least, is more narratively straightforward. It's a much bigger canvas. At the same time, though, this one's 85 years in a guy's life.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

But the stream of consciousness nature of train dreams, and the way it shifts all over the place, I actually never would have probably had the courage to think, okay, I'll adapt that one. If somebody had said, take any book of his and adapt it, I don't know that I would have had the courage to say this one.

[B]

So what happened?

[A]

Welp, some producers had the rights to the book, and Marissa McMahon, Ashley Schlafer, and Will Janowitz, who are producers on the film, they saw Jockey at Sundance, and they'd been trying to make it for a while and trying to find a filmmaker for it. And lucky for me, they hadn't been able to crack it. And so they reached out and asked if I'd be interested in adapting it.

[B]

And you said, I read this book, and it's not adaptable.

[A]

You said, it's not impossible.

[B]

So how do you conceive of it? Because I definitely have some questions about how faithful you tried to stay and then where you made excursions away from the source material.

[A]

I went back. At first, my memory of it was. It was funny. Cause even in the years between getting that call and having read it, initially, it was One of those books that, like, just things would bubble up from time to time from it. Like, scenes would come up in my mind randomly. And it just was one of those things that really stuck with me, one of those pieces of work. And so I went back, and at first I thought, like, maybe this one is unadaptable. It's like a Sound of the Fury or 100 Years of Solitude or something like that. But I went back and reread it with an eye towards thinking about it as a film and one I just got so excited about the potential of it, of the landscape and the things that I could use the film to talk about. And some of the themes. The story of Robert Greinear, like, this guy who kind of has a life that no one would build a statue for anything yet it's very beautiful and rich and pretty quickly, I think, felt like there was a shape for it, a narrative shape for it that could make it a bit more digestible as a film, but not lose some of that wooliness that's so special about the novel or about the novella. And that came pretty quickly, and that stayed intact into the film. But then it was a very difficult process with Greg of actually doing that and actually. Actually executing it as a script was a difficult and long process. But, yeah, I want to hear about that.

[B]

But so when you're saying that you're figuring out the appropriate structure, are you saying, okay, I want to have these five incidents happen in Robert's life and we'll build the movie as a pathway through those incidents. How are you thinking about it specifically?

[A]

I think generally thinking about it. I had heard an interview a while back with Paul Schrader, and he was talking about it unlocked something about screenwriting for me, where he was talking about that screenwriting comes from the oral tradition, not from the written tradition, you know, the form of screenwriting. And he talks a lot about, like, you should say. You should just say the story of your movie to a friend or to somebody like that when you're trying to work it out. And then you'll realize very quickly, like, what's interesting, what's not, what you have figured out and what you don't, what questions arise, what you forgot to talk about. And then, therefore, it's not that interesting. And so just coming up with the shape of the general structure of the film as to, like, okay, it's gonna start with the first half and not giving anything away. No spoilers for this, but, like, the first half of the movie is going to be this section of him trying to figure out, how do you make it work with a family at home while also having to travel far away for work. And the push and pull of that and the specialness of being at home, while also all the fun and the camaraderie of being on a logging crew with a bunch of random weirdos. And then some big event, which I won't give away, happens in the middle. And then the back half of the film is then, like, the narrative breaks, and the back half of the film then becomes. How do you pick up the pieces of your life and move on after unspeakable grief and tragedy? And where do you find hope? So, for lack of a better word.

[B]

Did you figure that out by talking through that with Greg in the oral tradition? Like, is that how you guys land on the structure? Or is that something that you're doing to yourself?

[A]

Again, that one came. They don't all come like this with our films, but it came pretty quickly like that. After going back and reading it and then sitting with it, reading the book and then sitting with it for a minute, that came pretty quickly. And then I could say that when Greg and I always use each other as, like, the first contact of, like, is this a movie or not, you know, whether it's when he found the article for Sing Sing and then sent it over and was like, okay, and here's what I'm thinking. The movie could be, or with this one. And so I was able to say that pretty quickly, that general structure again, then the devil's in the details of, like, how do you actually do that?

[B]

Yeah, Jockey is seemingly very personal movie. Your father was a jockey. I feel like you poured a lot of experience in that world into this. This is a slightly different exploration. It's 100 years ago, and it's a world. I don't know how familiar you are with the world of logging in the Pacific Northwest, but how do you make yourself an expert so that you can portray it?

[A]

It's a good question. I mean, there's a lot of research that. That went into it. Excuse me. The things I loved about the novella were actually the things that were very personal, I think, in. In some ways. Of, like, the things that he's struggling, that Grineer is struggling with, of, like, doing this thing that you love and this work that takes you far away from home while also wanting to be with your family. Like, I experienced that as a filmmaker a lot and struggle with that that. I was raised on a ranch and my uncle was a logger, and I used to Ride in the log trucks with him on the weekends. And there's a lot of, like, this question of, like, how. What is our responsibility to. In our relationship with nature as people who live not over top of it, but really alongside of it. And then the nature of grief, like, dealing. Like. A lot of us have dealt with some real debilitating loss in my life, and that was a big thing. I think we started writing it on the tail end of COVID and when just life had completely changed for all of us. And there was a lot of that. That went into it of just trying to kind of figure out, where do we go from here?

[C]

And.

[A]

And what does it look like? Yeah. There was just so much about the book and reading the novella that felt not only that I could personally relate to in my own personal life, but that I felt like even though it was telling this story of this guy who lived in the early part of the 20th century in the Pacific Northwest and was a logger, so much felt so pertinent to today in terms of this guy feeling like a relic of another time, even while he's still alive. Technology's passing him by. He doesn't know, you know, how to kind of keep up with life. Life feels like it's moving faster and faster, like, all these things. It just felt like. This really feels like maybe a really stunning way to talk about a lot of things we're going through today through this lens of this character.

[B]

Can you talk about actually portraying this person's vocation and how you recreate this work? The movie opens with this, you know, really not. Doesn't open. But one of the very first things you see is the camera affixed to a tree that's being cut down. And the first time I saw the movie, I was like, I've not seen that. That shot before. That image before, in this exact way, which is like, I've seen a lot of movies.

[A]

We've all seen a lot of images in our lives.

[B]

And that, you know, that just grabbed. It took my breath away. Thank you. But it felt like there was a lot of intentionality in terms of showing how this work is done. I assume it's gotta be challenging to recreate that environment, make it look authentic, but then not damage the environment that you're in.

[A]

Not doing the same thing that we're criticizing here.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

It was a similar. And also doing it safely and having a bunch of people swinging axes and stuff like that in a way that.

[B]

The only other logging movie I could think of was sometimes a great. Not which has like one of the most devastating death scenes.

[A]

The drowning.

[B]

The drowning, yeah. It's brutal, insane. But, you know, it's like that movie is, you know, it's a mixed bag, but it is an amazing representation of this very dangerous world.

[A]

It is. And it's also like made in the 70s and so they could just like throw logs down a hill and shit like that.

[B]

Yes. And you can't do that.

[A]

And you shouldn't do it. Cannot, but should not.

[B]

So what did you do?

[A]

Took a lot of lessons from jockeying. You know, honestly, where we were going into a space also with. In horse racing, where one we didn't have the budget to like set up horse races in a way. And so you're just. We just found ways to. We just filmed that. That movie on a working racetrack and just had our scenes happening with the racing in the background. Right. And we're folding our actors into those moments and so took a similar approach here to the trees. There are only a few trees that are cut down in the film. And all of those, we went into logging areas where they're already cutting down trees and just said, which ones are you cutting down next week, on Tuesday when we want to film this scene? And they're like, that one, that one, that one. And we're like, okay, can we bolt a camera to a tree while you cut down that tree that you're already going to cut down? And so trying to be thoughtful of that in terms of that perspective also. So our production designer and her team, Alex Schaller, they were amazing. There are a few scenes where they're cutting into these big old trees and laying in a notch of one. And that is a wooden and fiberglass tree that they made. They made a big 12 foot tall stump that then we could have our actors sawing into. And then we extend the top with vfx.

[B]

And that is seamless. I would have never guessed that there's.

[A]

A ton of vfx. I mean, our production design team is amazing in terms of what they did and giving us big stumps that we could just place in different areas that look very real. And then our VFX supervisor, Ilya Moktorizawa is amazing. And there's a lot of vfx. I'm proud to say there's a lot of VFX in the movie and you wouldn't know it by watching it.

[B]

Yeah, that's really impressive.

[A]

Just hard vfx.

[B]

I did want to ask you about shooting on digital, which like you would think I don't Know what your feelings are about film versus digital. If you could have shot on film. But it had this surprising effect on me that watching it for a second time, because digital kind of draws out a lot of detail. And this is a film about a different time, like a lack of, like the changing modernity. Right. That this character is walking through. And you would think that it would be like, a contrast to some of the ideas and the. This portrayal of natural beauty that the film is after. And yet I find it to be really effective in this particular case. And I'm curious just to hear your thoughts about shooting in that way. The challenges of it, what are the upsides of it?

[A]

I think we wouldn't have. We explored shooting on film. And that was something that I like Adolfo and I, my cinematographer, Adolfo Veloso, so we had talked about doing. The reality is, like, we couldn't have done the film on film the way that we did it. And part of that was we shot the film in 29 days. And so we're moving very quickly. We're using available light wherever we can. All of the fire scenes that are lit by fires, are lit by fires and are lit by candles and lanterns. And so in that environment, like, we couldn't. If we had more time or more money, we could have shot it on film and had lighting packages and things like that, or more time to do lighting setups. But as it was, like, we needed to move quickly and. And we needed to shoot in a lot of really low light environments and. And digital just made the most sense for that. And yet, like, we. I don't know, you don't want it to look digital. You know, you want it to look. Have this, like, special look to it. And Adolfo's brilliant in how he shoots it to get that. And then also the colorist that we work with, Sergio Pascalano, is amazing at, like, coming up with a look that feels softer than the hard edges of digital. But really, like, as quickly as we were moving and like, following around Joel Edgerton and Felicity Jones with a bunch of chickens at sunset, like, you can't. It's tough to do that with film cameras. You can, but you just need more time than we had.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure it's helped by the fact that you're not just sitting in modern rooms with black walls. Like, you are in an incredible location capturing the world as it is.

[A]

Oh, yeah, totally. And the detail there is something very beautiful. Cause Netflix was kind enough to do a 35 millimeter print of the film. And it's really beautiful and I'm really proud of it and I'm excited for people to see it on that. And yet, like, just because of the nature of the medium, there is some detail. There's some really like, special detail to the spaces that is lost in that exhibition format.

[B]

We have long running dialogues on this show about the use of narration in films.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it can be a crutch. It can be.

[A]

There's a very bad way to do it.

[B]

There's a very bad way to do it. And it can be a way to. To deliver information that was not originally part of the intention of the story. This is a. The narration in this film to me makes it very unusual because it does make it very literate and almost like literature. And I don't feel the structure of a traditional three act movie because of the narration, but I was curious to hear you talk about writing it and kind of when to include it. The decision to use Will Patton, just so inspired and he's amazing. He's incredible. Keeps you very emotionally tied to the work. But can you just talk about why you included it in the way that you did?

[A]

Yeah, it was a few things that came from just the story itself. One was you've got this character in Robert Greinear who Joel Edgerton plays, who is a man of few words. And I wanted to portray this character as he is in the book, but also thinking about my dad, my grandfathers and. And men like that who had very deep feelings and deep thoughts but didn't always have the vocabulary to say it, you know. And so that was one aspect of just having this character who you want to portray to an audience, that there's a very deep undercurrent running through there and he's trying to figure out the world around him and yet doesn't have the words to say, hey, I'm dealing with trauma and loss. It breaks the character as soon as he starts doing that. And so that was one. The other aspect was thinking about what was special about the novella and trying to bring that across. And part of the thing was just Dennis Johnson's voice and his. He's got these like clever turns of phrase and this subtle kind of irony that he puts in at times that just makes the story come alive. Even though it's so spare in terms of the fiction, it's so deep. And that's part of it is because of his voice and so just trying to pull that across in there and then like, you know, you don't want to do narration Badly and be like. And he was sad that day. And I thought about, like, the narrators from, like, Jules and Jim and E Tu Mama Tambien, who are just, like, characters in their own right. And wanted this character to feel like. If you, like, we're in some bar in a logging town late at night and some guy sits down next to you and is like. Let me tell you about Robert Greinear after he's had a few beers.

[C]

Wanting.

[A]

It to feel like that, you know, and that he can take asides. He can take these, like, tangents and talk about a comet. For some reason, you're like, wait, what does that have to do with what we're talking about?

[B]

I love that.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Let's get back on track.

[B]

That's great. I mean, he really does feel like he is someone, you know, but just met and has a lot of things to share, which is a nice way to feel about the narrative instead of it being. If it was in Joel's voice and it was first person, you'd be, like, cheesy all of a sudden. Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If he's like, I was, you know, three years old when this happened. And then it's all of a sudden. We've felt it before. And I think that, like, taking that approach to every. Every part of it, the structure, the way you set up shots, the way that, like, I don't know, any scene between two characters go and just trying not to do the thing that's. That's expected with it. And, you know, I think that that, like, applies to the whole process.

[B]

So I have a confession. I have always been a little bit immune to Joel Edgerton as a performer. How many people say that? I'm on the outside on that one. This is probably the first movie that I have felt emotionally connected to him.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

So I'm curious. I'm not curious about why I feel that way, but I'm curious why you chose him to be. Right, Robert, in this film.

[A]

I. I felt respectfully the opposite of that. And I. I found him to be, like, with loving, especially, but with several of his roles, just found him so, like, fascinating as an actor and. And again, felt like there was so much depth there that maybe, like, we hadn't seen all of it. And then just, like, this, very rare. He's a very rare actor who feels like he could be from any time period. And I always love that when it, like, you could put Joel in the 30s, you could put Joel in the 60s and the 70s. You can put him today and he fits right in wherever, like, whatever era of film. You know, he could be right there alongside Jimmy Cagney, and you'd be like, yeah, that fits. And. And there's something just very kind of timeless and beautiful about him and having somebody who can, like, you believe him as a logger chopping down trees, but then you also believe him as, like, a sweet family man, you know, hanging out with the kid and holding the baby, trying to burp the baby. Like, that's a very rare gift. And then again, like, not, you know, I could spend the rest of the thing talking about how great Joel is, but, like. Like, also having somebody who can do a lot with a little, you know, and doesn't need to be busy as an actor and doesn't need to, like, say a lot, but can get so much across with his eyes and with a look, that's a very rare gift. Okay, Slash talent.

[B]

You've convinced me. I wanted to ask you about the phrase Malikian, because you have this, like, great compliment and great burden of being compared to Terrence Malick because of this movie. Because I think, in part because of what the movie is looking to explore, how some of the visual representation. You live in Texas home with Terrence Malick.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

How do you feel about that? How do you feel about that comparison?

[A]

I mean, he's one of the greatest filmmakers to have ever, you know, lived. And it's very, like. It's hard not to, I think, be a filmmaker trying to do something poetic, especially with nature. Whether you're making films or you're making Tide commercials, it's hard not to be influenced by what he's done. He changed the language of cinema. He created a new form, like one of those rare filmmakers that.

[B]

That.

[A]

That turned the medium in a new direction. You know, there's not many of them, and so, yeah, I'm a big fan, trying to do my own thing, but. But it. I don't know if I'm mentioned in the same sentence as him. It's. I'm very honored.

[B]

It's a good answer. I really like the choice of. Of actors in small parts in this movie. I feel like you have an incredible eye for one scene heroes. Clifton, obviously, you worked with in the past, but seeing Paul Schneider and John Deal, I love John Deal. Obviously, William H. Macy is getting a lot of love for his work in this movie. There's many others. How do you cast? I talked with Greg. I think a bit about this, too, because Sing Sing, such an extraordinary act of casting. But how do you think about casting.

[A]

I mean, I was lucky to, like, make some mistakes on short films casting, where you get too caught up in, like, a look of a character that you have in your head or an age of a character or something like that, and then you cast incorrectly. But I think just thinking about what is the spirit of this character and who can pull that across, and then looking for that and letting go of how the character was written on the surface, and I don't know, just thinking this was such a joy. It's what every filmmaker kind of dreams of, to be able to have Paul Schneider come in for a day and just be able to play with him or John Deal come in for a few days and deliver some heartbreaking performance like it's a dream come true. But then also, all the people who have, you know, some of them have never acted and turned beautiful things, beautiful performances in the film. And it's just trying to treat everybody, trying to think about what's what. What. What you need to get across with the character, and then finding the right person that you want to watch in an audition tape or you want to sit across from. If you meet them at a. In a audition room or in a coffee shop, that you want to just, like, hear whatever they're gonna say next, whatever it is, and then figure out a way to tailor the moment and the way you shoot the moment to just bring out the best in them. And Nathaniel Arcand is another. He plays Ignatius Jack. He's another example of that where he's just, like, a really special person that you just wanna, like, put him on screen, you know, and if you wanna hang out with that person and talk to them, chances are like. Like, you know, the audience is going to feel that way as well.

[B]

It's interesting. I always think of that as, like, a way to understand what a filmmaker is interested in, is who they pick to be in their movie. You know, obviously you're working with other people, but it's, like, indicative of an energy that is trying to be communicated by the energy of the actor. Like, when you put John Deal in your movie, you're, like, saying something because he's an interesting kind of actor where he can be very sinister.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And he can be very warm, and.

[A]

He'S a sweetheart of a man. But, yeah, growing up watching the stuff he did with Michael Mann and Stargate and all of that, and he's like. Can be a scary dude for sure. But then also. But seeing him trying to tie his shoes is one of the most heartbreaking things.

[B]

I'm curious what your experience with Sing Sing taught you about this larger apparatus. Because that's a movie that is somewhat similar to this one insofar as, like, it played at a festival, it was acquired, it had a long run up to its release. You're in the awards conversation. That's a complicated thing to be plunged into over a long period of time. Like, what is that? I don't know. What did you learn from it? What does that mentality teach you about how to be a successful filmmaker? Now, setting aside what happens when you're on set or cutting the movie from.

[A]

The production standpoint or from the release.

[B]

Standpoint, just this being a vocation for you, this being something that you do for a living?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Only very recently for a living in terms of being able to make it work work. I think actually Jockey was the big one where I remember we had, before we got into Sundance with Jockey, we had gotten rejected from several festivals and Greg and I had like, we had a little money left over in the budget and we were putting together a plan for like self distribution and hoping we would get a festival release and all of that. And I remember making that, making a decision there where I was just like, this is what I want to do as a trade and as an art form, and it's probably never going to work out in terms of making a lot of money at it. I was doing a lot of stuff like editing insurance videos on the side and things like that and doing some script work with Greg that we could get paid for. And I was like, you know, I'll like, maybe work at the post office or work a contracting job and then, you know, every few years get a couple hundred thousand dollars and make a little movie. And that's fine, that's great. And that's where Jockey, that happened before anything happened with Sundance and all of that. And then it was also interesting to watch with Sing Sing. It was interesting to watch that process because that was an eight year process. And Greg knew immediately after Trans Pecos, very quickly after that he wanted to do that movie and found that subject matter. And then there were a lot of reasons, I think in the universe that that got pushed back. And it was better that he made it when he made it and that it took the time that it did. But it was interesting to watch, like, that was a movie that a lot of the industry told Greg not to do that movie. You know, they were like, no, no, no, you did a thriller with Transfigure, do another thriller like that and.

[B]

And.

[A]

That was an interesting thing to see that when it finally came back around and he made the movie that he wanted to make initially and followed his gut, and we put that movie out. The response that it got and how special it was and all of that, that was a really interesting lesson. You don't always know how the outcome's gonna be, but just to make what you want to make and what you feel drawn to make. And don't try and reverse engineer some version of success financially or critically or anything like that requires patience.

[B]

It's funny, like, I think about from my very small little experience with Jockey, I had almost the opposite viewpoint, where I was like, this movie is not getting enough attention because it's Covid. And, you know, like, I watched it in virtual Sundance, and it's a very good film. And it's a film that, like, even in 2014, it would have been easier to exhibit that movie, draw an audience. And things have changed a lot in independent film over this, you know, since you guys have been at this.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

What. How do you feel about the state of it? What do you make of it? Your film's obviously premiering on the largest streaming platform in the universe, which is very exciting, but also different than, I imagine how you were thinking about it when you were developing Jockey, for example.

[A]

I don't know. It's one of those things of, like, with this one in particular, I'm in a very lucky position where I get to have my cake and eat it, too, where I. They're giving the film a robust theatrical release and doing a 35 millimeter print of it. And Netflix is taking very good care on that side, on the theatrical side, and gonna let it run as long as people are going to the theaters to see it, you know, but then also it's going to go out on the platform. And I have family members who, you know, live out in the country who've, like, never seen my films, you know, because they don't have a theater near them or something like that, but they have Netflix. And thinking about, like, Adolfo's family in Brazil is gonna be able to watch this the same day as my family in North Florida is gonna be able to watch it. I'm excited about that. That's a beautiful thing. The landscape overall, especially as an independent filmmaker. It's like one of those things where it's a weird time, and I think there's. It's a very strange time to think about bringing films out. And it's odd because there's more ways to get your film out than ever to people. And there's no lack of desire. There's no lack of audience out there. There's no lack of desire of people to watch them. And yet there's fewer and fewer, like, distributors. And I think the whole industry is just trying to figure out what's what, you know, what's up from down in terms of how to put a movie out. But at the same time, like, I don't know, as independent filmmakers, we're kind of like alley cats anyways, where you're just like, you just make do with whatever you got at the time and like, don't think too much about and I don't know, just try and make something good and hope that people see it.

[B]

It's funny though, because you were saying that you didn't really see this as an occupation until recently, but now you're probably in this situation where you'll get a script sent to you and it'll be a studio movie and you'll get to say, yeah, I do want to make a movie that costs $75 million. And does X Y. Do you feel yourself transitioning into that phase or do you think you guys will keep working in the way that you have?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

When does your Marvel movie start?

[A]

Yeah, I'm trying to think of if I can break the news now or not. I'm just kidding. I don't know that anybody would look at Train Dreams and be like, you know, what we need him to do is the new Ant Man.

[B]

I don't know, man. Somebody looked at Nomadland and they did. You know, it happens. It definitely happens.

[A]

That's true. I don't know. I really like, like, it'd be nice to have a little more money, but at the same time, like, than, than. Than we did on Train Dreams, but at the same time, it's a nice space to be. And I think looking at, like, looking at my. The filmmakers who I would like, love to have a career like, or, or some sort of like, body of work, like, like how the Coen brothers came up, you know, or, or like, or Malik as well, like in terms of. Outside of like a 20 year gap, but like taking, taking like stair steps up and, and kind of staying in your lane and, and figuring out like, what your voice is or how Fellini came up, you know, like a step at a time, I think is just like, it's typically more interesting that way. And that's not to say it's not to make big jumps. A lot of filmmakers do it and do great at it. But I'm kind of a slow learner.

[B]

So. Ant Man 4.

[A]

Yes. Is that what we're on?

[B]

I think so. I think it's four. Yeah. Good luck.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. Are you seeing much as you are exhibiting the movie around the world?

[A]

Unfortunately, because, like on the road exhibiting this movie and then I've got a four month old at home.

[B]

Oh, congrats. Thank you. That's the same timing.

[A]

And so the last great one I watched was How Green is My Valley with John Flavino. How Green Was My Valley?

[B]

Definitely a movie with some relationship to your film.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Kind of similar themes.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very good film.

[B]

It's much maligned historically because it beat Citizen Kane.

[A]

I know, I didn't realize that, but it's a beautiful film.

[B]

Gorgeous. I think one of Ford's best movies.

[A]

I agree. And just so I found myself like the last half, just crying through the last half. It's hard when you have years like that where we have to have a best and you've got like Susan Cain in that movie. It's like, what do you do? But I think in terms of new releases, I mean, just like just jumping in the choir here of one battle after another.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You're like the ninth person to say it on the show, of course. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty cool though. What did you like about One Battle?

[A]

I mean, I'm inclined to like anything that PTA does.

[B]

Same.

[A]

And, and so I enjoyed it. But just like, I don't know, the, the, the freshness of it. I could like Benicio Del Toro's character. I could. I need a whole movie of him. Like it just. I loved it.

[B]

Clint, your film is beautiful. Congratulations. Thanks for being here. Thank you very much.

[A]

Thank you for having me. This is really fun.

[B]

Thank you to Clint Bentley. Thanks to Juliet Littman. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Next week, Amanda and I will talk about sentimental value regretting you and take stock of the best picture race. We'll see you then. As a raider scavenging a derelict world, you settle into an underground underground settlement. But now you must return to the surface where arc machines roam. If you're brave enough, who knows what you might find. Arc Raiders, a multiplayer extraction adventure video game. Buy now for PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X and S and PC rated T for teen.

[A]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a.

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