Podcast Summary: The Big Picture — "‘Wicked: For Good’ Is No Good. But ‘Train Dreams’ Is."

Date: November 21, 2025
Hosts: Sean Fennessey & Amanda Dobbins
Guests: Juliette Littman (for "Wicked: For Good"), Clint Bentley (director, "Train Dreams")

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sean, Amanda, and guest Juliette Littman take a deep dive into two major film releases: the highly-anticipated conclusion to the "Wicked" saga, Wicked: For Good, and the quietly powerful adaptation of Denis Johnson's novella, Train Dreams. The episode is a mix of gleeful pop culture banter and sharp critical analysis, navigating everything from musical theater emotions to the existential struggles found in early 20th-century logging camps.

Key Segments & Insights

[01:19–11:58] Pop Star Documentaries, Charli XCX, & Hunger Games Hype

Charli XCX's "The Moment"

• Hosts react to Charli XCX's upcoming mockumentary, The Moment.
• Discussion about pop star documentaries' ubiquity in the wake of Taylor Swift and Beyoncé, and the (meta) artistic potential of Charli’s approach.
  • Juliette: “I thought it seemed pretty charming... Maybe she’s gonna reinvent the form.” [02:39]
  • Sean: “If we get a Truth or Dare meets Waiting for Guffman, I love it.” [06:11]
• Amanda brings up her Letterboxd activity and Taylor Swift's public movie taste (“We're so lucky to be alive at the same time as Paul Thomas Anderson is a real thing she said.” [07:19])

Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping

• Reverence for the franchise’s casting bonanza (Ralph Fiennes, Jesse Plemons, Elle Fanning, Kieran Culkin, Glenn Close, Billy Porter, and more).
• Fascination and slight exhaustion over keeping all the lore and retroactive plot developments straight.

[19:33–68:09] In-Depth Review: Wicked: For Good

Setting the Stage

• Juliette shares her love for musicals: “I think they’re important and special and love the opportunity to get in touch with my inner theater kid. And Wicked draws that out... I’m definitely not like a Broadway expert, but I am a Broadway super fan.” [20:50]
• Amanda and Sean both approach as relative “outsiders” to the original “Wicked” phenomenon.

General Reaction & Main Critiques

• Juliette: “I found it frustrating. I just didn’t know why a lot of the decisions were made...they really amplified the impact of Fiyero as a love interest, which isn’t as central in the musical. It felt like we were watching a superhero movie and they rushed through the musical numbers. No showstopper, and that’s just a crime in a musical movie.” [25:01–26:55]

  • Did not enjoy it, questions if she was in a bad mood or the film was simply an artistic misfire. [27:08]

• Amanda: Finds this installment a bit more fun than the first, but still baffling and vaguely alienated by the adaptation’s choices.

  • “Even Defying Gravity… they start the superhero stuff, cut it through, she’s flying around… There’s also a lot of expository setup…at least [this one] was legible: this person is against these other people. The lack of musical numbers was to its benefit, honestly.” [27:46–28:50]

• Sean: Concerned with how the film tries to “retcon” "The Wizard of Oz", and the messy mishmash of allegory, plot, and fandom service.

  • “The films don’t look very good...the ultimate issue is story. It’s like they upended something...the actual execution is just so weird and stupid.” [30:41–33:11]

Memorable Exchange

• Amanda (re: the Wizard of Oz connection): “What is the moral of Wicked, the stage show?” [33:11]
• Juliette: “Power is abused to ostracize a certain class... The whole story is Elphaba and Glinda’s friendship.” [33:26]
• Sean: “It's completely spring loaded to be projected onto the queer experience or communities that have been cast out... but the villain/good structure is undermined by the one-dimensionality of the wizard and Madame Morrible.” [36:40]

Plot and Adaptation Problems

• Confusion over geography/politics of Oz, literalism in adaptation, and jumbled allegories.
• Frustration at exacerbated love triangle (“Who cares about this guy made of straw now?” [25:10]), added “Noah’s Ark” animal subplots, and stretching of the source via extra scenes and new, forgettable songs.
  • “They added so much literalism...it doesn't need to be so literal. People will get it.” [40:49]

The "Wizard of Oz" Conundrum

• The panel deeply dislikes the explicit, literal connections (Tin Man, Scarecrow, Dorothy as a “side villain”).
  • Sean: “This movie is like, we're going to tie up all those loose threads so you can say ‘here’s why he’s a Tin Man.’ That’s not interesting.” [52:30]
  • Amanda: “Once they bring in like the Reddit Easter egg Wizard of Oz tie-ins—preposterous. Just absolutely silly.” [42:04]

Performances

• Praise for Grande (“She has a really good comic touch...but doesn't get to be that fun or funny in this movie.” [65:18]) and Erivo, but lament for Michelle Yeoh and Jeff Goldblum being miscast.
• Jonathan Bailey gets love for his charm (“Just not enough Jonathan Bailey in this movie. So disappointing.” [59:07])

Oscars & Box Office

• Consensus that Wicked: For Good will make less than the first, due to fan base disappointment and word of mouth, despite Universal’s marketing machine.
  • Juliette: “If you like the movie, it's kind of heartbreaking...you dropped the ball.” [69:40]
• Predict nominations for Grande and Erivo; see possible wins (esp. Best Supporting Actress for Grande), but are skeptical about Best Picture momentum.
  • “Is it successful artistically? I don't think anybody on this podcast thinks so.” [64:04]

Notable Quotes

• Juliette: “I think there's too many animals in Wicked for Good.” [33:26]
• Sean: “This movie is idiotic. Guys, what is going on?” [48:28]
• Amanda: “I'd really like to ask you a lot of questions about how magic works in Oz.” [30:02]

[85:28–96:26] Review: Train Dreams

General Reaction

• Sean describes his initial virtual Sundance viewing, being “really moved...really knocked out.” [85:42]
• Amanda was skeptical at first, but calls the film “beautiful and wonderful...absolutely upsetting and beautiful. One of those things where you feel the emotions you’re supposed to feel very early on.” [87:55]

What Makes It Work

• The film is praised for its naturalistic, episodic structure and deep emotional resonance.
• Both hosts are surprised and affected by Joel Edgerton’s subtle performance and Felicity Jones’s strength in a delicate role.
  • “I thought [Edgerton] was very good...and it's not as showy as a lot of the best actor candidates we've been talking about...he gives a great performance.” [90:03]
• William H. Macy’s small role singled out for career-best quality.

Unique Aspects

• Love for the visual invention (notably the camera “strapped to a log” shot [92:49]) and the Malickian approach to time, memory, and landscape.

Oscars & Awards

• Hosts see the film as a major Best Picture dark horse: “A movie that everybody kind of likes—that’s what sneaks in for Best Picture.” [95:33]
• “You need this movie to show up in the number three or four spot on a lot of ballots...” [95:32]

[96:26–130:37] Interview: Clint Bentley (Director, Train Dreams)

Adapting Johnson’s Novella

• Bentley was already a “superfan” of Denis Johnson’s work: “I became a huge, super fan.” [97:36]
• Initially considered the novella “unadaptable,” but found a narrative structure by focusing on “two halves: before and after a family tragedy, and how someone picks up the pieces.” [102:29]

Filmmaking & Style

• Bentley describes an almost documentary approach, collaborating with working loggers for authenticity and using minimal VFX for period realism.
  • “We went into logging areas where they’re already cutting down trees and just said, ‘Which ones are you cutting down next week?’” [108:31]
• Discusses decision to shoot on digital for flexibility and hidden VFX for naturalism.

Narration

• Incisive discussion of why Will Patton's narrated storytelling works:
  • “If you were in some bar in a logging town and some guy sits next to you and says, ‘Let me tell you about Robert Greineer’…I wanted it to feel like that.” [114:26]
• Describes how narration is in the spirit of the novella but avoids “cheesy” first-person introspection.

Casting

• Bentley discusses his appreciation for Joel Edgerton’s timelessness and deft subtlety:
  • “You believe him as a logger chopping down trees, but then you also believe him as, like, a sweet family man, hanging out with the kid and holding the baby. That’s a very rare gift.” [116:45]

Reflections on Indie Filmmaking

• Bentley is grateful yet pragmatic about the Netflix release:
  • “There’s no lack of desire, no lack of audience...but fewer and fewer distributors. The whole industry is trying to figure out what’s up and down.” [125:25]
• Feels lucky: family everywhere can now watch his film.

Last Great Movie Seen

• How Green Was My Valley (“I found myself like the last half, just crying through the last half. It’s hard when you have years like that where we have to have a best and you've got like Citizen Kane and that movie.” [129:28])
• One Battle After Another (“I could like Benicio Del Toro’s character...I need a whole movie of him.” [130:15])

Notable Quotes by Topic & Timestamp

On "Wicked: For Good"

• “It felt like they made a conscious decision to make a superhero movie and rush through the musical numbers... no showstopper musical number. That is just a crime in a musical movie.” — Juliette [25:15]
• “This is just a continuation...the films don't look very good. The way they're lit is bizarre...the ultimate issue is just...it feels like a real problem of story.” — Sean [30:41]
• “The movie could not communicate [the original's purpose] to me. Once they bring in the Reddit Easter egg Wizard of Oz tie-ins—preposterous. Just absolutely silly, you know?” — Amanda [42:04]

On "Train Dreams"

• “It is beautiful and wonderful... absolutely upsetting and beautiful. And one of those things where you feel the emotions that you’re supposed to feel very early on in the film.” — Amanda [87:55]
• “You need this movie to show up in, like, the number three or four spot on a lot of ballots to get bumped up and up.” — Sean [95:32]
• On narration: “I wanted this character to feel like...in some bar in a logging town late at night and some guy sits next to you and is like, ‘Let me tell you about Robert Greinear’.” — Clint Bentley [114:26]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:19] Start of show, Charli XCX & trailers
• [11:12] Hunger Games franchise casting discussion
• [19:33] Introduction to / review of Wicked: For Good
• [25:01] Juliette articulates frustration with the film
• [40:10] Extended discussion on adaptation choices, "Wizard of Oz" connections, and animal subplots
• [52:30] Panel critiques forced references and retconning (Tin Man/Scarecrow origin)
• [64:04] Oscar/Box office predictions, Universal’s strategy
• [68:09] Transition to "Train Dreams" review
• [85:28] First impressions and emotional reaction to "Train Dreams"
• [92:49] Visual strategy and technical praise
• [96:26] Interview with Clint Bentley
• [114:26] Bentley on narration and adaptation choices

Overall Tone

Honest, playful, irreverent, and deeply analytical. The hosts are not shy about voicing their frustrations, but find room to celebrate heartfelt filmmaking and surprising artistry where it emerges.

For Those Who Haven’t Listened

• If you’re a Wicked fan, expect a sobering critique on both adaptation choices and filmmaking craft; if you’re a musical outsider, you may find validation.
• If you gravitate toward intimate, visual storytelling, Train Dreams is strongly recommended and lovingly championed here.
• The episode is peppered with pop culture digressions, Letterboxd humor, and a sharp Oscar forecasting segment, making it rich and engaging for cinephiles.

Next episode: Amanda and Sean will review Sentimental Value, Regretting You, and take stock of the Best Picture race.