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The $100M Entrepreneur Podcast
Find Your Why: How Adversity Shapes Success and Purpose from Kevin Sinfield
00:28:31
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- [00:00]
A
People will laugh at this. But I don't like running. I don't like running. I don't like running.
- [00:06]
B
You started running and just kept running.
- [00:08]
A
To be a champion, you have to be a champion at home first and basically be a good person through a tragedy. Found out what my purpose were and was massively inspired. It made me realize exactly why I was supposed to be here, which is try and help and support the MND community. Sometimes we have to have a load of challenges in our life that we don't necessarily want.
- [00:26]
B
People want to say, what's your definition of success?
- [00:31]
A
I think success in life is based around getting the best out yourself, whatever line of work you're in, whether it's sport, business, like, how do you keep improving, getting better, so that there comes a point where you reach. You max out your potential.
- [00:47]
B
Yeah, yeah. Was it always that way for you or did it change over time or.
- [00:52]
A
It probably changed. I think in my early years, sort of formative years. I think certainly being in, coming from sport, I think success is built around the trophies you win.
- [01:04]
B
Yeah, yeah. 100%.
- [01:05]
A
Yeah.
- [01:05]
B
Well, you got to win every weekend. You got to. You know, that's a big part of it at that point. I think the challenge for a lot of people is they don't have a competitor every weekend. You know, life is just a continual thing. When you. Let's go back to sporting days. What do you think sports taught you about life and about, you know, how to get to where you want to be and be your best?
- [01:26]
A
I feel like my playing career gave me a crash course in the best and the worst that life can throw at you. Yeah. And I felt like it was massively condensed into a period where I was playing professional sport. And actually that period set me up for post playing and whatever that looks like. So, you know, I've been through some really, really difficult moments, which life throws at you when you're in all sorts of different work and family and friends feel like, you know, experienced some huge lulls from losing finals, not getting picked in games, being dropped for games, being injured and dealing with that. And then also the great fun side of it, which is winning trophies, those moments where you're in dressing rooms after a big win, when it's just the guys who have played a part, like the inner sanctum and they're there together and everybody understands the journey you've been on, how hard it's been. But everybody's tipped in and done everything they can. And you find yourself with a special group of people who. Who have been able to do something while the eyeballs have been on them and under immense pressure. So, yeah, I feel like rugby gave me a crash course into the best and the worst. And then what I've tried to do is harness those lessons and use them in what came next.
- [02:48]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, one of the great things I notice is how much you draw on purpose and how well you help people understand what purpose is. So is that something that just evolved over time for you? Because I know as we grow, as, you know, men, people, we sort of learn to lean on certain areas and purpose has become a really big thing for you. Because, I mean, in some ways, I mean, it's. It was awful, but in some ways you got given a purpose that, you know, and it just, it was put there for you. Do you feel a little bit lucky from that? I mean, it was an awful, but it's a little bit lucky in that way, I guess.
- [03:26]
A
Yeah. I. I feel Rob taught me many things and he inspired me in so different, so many different ways. When you play professional sport, and we all understand that it's for a very short period of time, but you have a great deal of purpose and meaning in what every day looks like in the competition, every other week, every weekend, and you know exactly what your structure is in your schedule and, and it's all put together. Then you suddenly, when he's playing, and if you're lucky, you get to mid-30s like I were, and then life starts again.
- [03:58]
B
Yeah.
- [03:59]
A
So suddenly there's a void because a competition's not there. Every weekend your identity changes and, and now you get a new purpose and you're not quite sure what that looks like, how it feels or what it should be. And I suppose you try and find your way through what the next few years look like through a tragedy. I found out what my purpose were and was massively inspired through Rob's fight and his courage. But it made me realize exactly why I was supposed to be here, which is to try and help and support the M and D community. And then also had a massive bearing on the career decisions I made. Yeah, I wanted to take some risk and being comfortable and be vulnerable. I felt that good things came through. Some of the decisions I made around supporting Rob when I took some risk and were vulnerable and, and I thought, well, I wonder if I can use this more in my day to day life and the work that I do. And, you know, thankfully I find myself in a place where I feel like I've got a decent balance, but also A great deal of purpose and challenge still in my life. I don't want it easy.
- [05:06]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [05:07]
A
And clearly I don't want it too hard either. But. But we all know that you have to go through some difficult moments, some hard moments to grow. So there. I'm also aware I might not want it hard because human nature tells us why would we choose to put ourselves through pain and sacrifice and hurt. But actually, what I've found is the more I put myself there, the more fulfilling it is.
- [05:29]
B
Yeah. I draw a lot of parallels to. I've spoken with a lot of sports people over time, and when they finish their career and go and find that second career, they're doing what most people have to do when they're in their 20s, you know, like when they. When they're coming out of school and finding a career is almost like a lot of what a sports people have to do. You got to do that, though, more as a grown man. Like, you'd already had experience and had some level of wealth and success and that sort sort of thing. What advice would you have for someone for trying to find their way and their purpose in the world? Like, trying to. Because a lot of people are still. I don't know what my purpose is. And. And. Yeah. What's your.
- [06:09]
A
Yeah. And that's why I feel very fortunate, because a lot of people don't even know, even when they're on the deathbed and the dying moments, don't know why they're here.
- [06:17]
B
Yeah.
- [06:18]
A
So it all comes from what you're passionate about. There must be something that grabs you. There's something that makes you want to get out of bed in the morning. There's. There's got to be something that put a smile on your face. What is it? Work out what that is. And then can you. Can you form a career out of it? And I'll give you an example, because this sounds all really simple and easy, but I found I never wanted to coach. Right. I wanted to be a sport administrator. So I did 2 degrees, and I thought, I'm really prepared to do it. I don't want to coach, don't want to be on the grass. But I'd say through Rob's journey, I realized that I got so much back from trying to help and support. Now, my experience was in rugby, so how can I best use my experience in rugby to help and support and challenge and work with others? The best way is to coach, is to get on the grass. So that's how I was able to go. That's the direction I want to head in. I didn't plan for this at all. It found me. However, I love working with young guys. I think their enthusiasm and energy, and in particular, the guys I work with now, just want to be better every single day. And when you're getting into, I mean, I'm in my mid-40s now, but to still be around people who, who are like that, it rubs off on you. It's massively inspiring.
- [07:33]
B
Yeah, I, I mean, one of the great things of leadership is that you do get to help mold and another great coach. I, I asked Darren Cahill, tennis coach, and he said, you know, my job is not to create a better tennis player. My job is to create a better person and a better tennis player. You know what I mean? And I think that's one of the great things that you do, is you mold those young men into great men.
- [07:57]
A
You know, we try, we tried.
- [08:01]
B
It's hard sometimes.
- [08:02]
A
We try and I think we understand that. Actually we're all in the people business. It's just the fact we have a rugby ball at the heart of what we do. So a lot of the values and behaviors I learned as a rugby player, not on about technical, tactical or skill based stuff. Talk about how you deal with people. Yeah, it's very real in the normal world. Yeah.
- [08:23]
B
Rugby. And the great thing about professional sport is you have a lot of pressure and you put under that on a weekly basis. And so it, it brings out the best and the worst in people very fast. So how do you help people? Like, let's say we, you know, a leader of a business is listening to us today. What are some of the key things we can do to bring out the best in our people?
- [08:48]
A
Listen. And I will start with that. Listen and care about the people you work with because if they trust you and they understand you care about them and that isn't words. That's got to be. You've got to walk the walk as well as talk it. I think they understand you care about them. The loyalty you will get back, the support you will get back will just be unbelievable. Just. And yeah, I've been fortunate because I've been in dressing rooms all my life. I think I'm really passionate about rugby and that's both called to rugby because I've seen the power of what the dressing room does and the beauty of the values and standards and behaviors and morals that come from a rugby dressing room and for our young people, for men and women to have those experiences. And I'm biased. I know I Am. Because I think rugby does things for people that a lot of other team sports don't. Because trust, there's honesty. And yeah, you've got that in all sports. You've got the physical nature of it, but there's something magical about rugby dressing room that says, when we finish playing, we all respect each other and the opposition, the referee. And when we finish playing, as in, we retire or time's up, we still look after each other.
- [10:03]
B
Yeah.
- [10:04]
A
And there's not many other team sports that, that do it quite like Lupitozen, so I feel particularly blessed. And when you think about that in a business sense, how can you create a business where there's care, there's support, there's course, there's challenge? There has to be an element of challenge. There has to be that. Right. You know, if it's not challenging enough, it's warm and fluffy and you don't win, you don't succeed, you don't get the profit margins. You should. Yeah. But if it's too extreme, too challenging, then you burn people out. So where's the sweet spot for your business? How do you care enough and have enough challenge and inspiration for it to keep growing and improving?
- [10:40]
B
Yeah. So I want to go back to the whole purpose idea of bringing the purpose back to business. And, you know, in sport you've got that every week, you know, your purpose sort of thing. You got to win every week. How do we get that? How do you, like, how would you advise a business owner to bring that to their business? Like, how can we make it that. Like, it's like every week is a game almost.
- [11:00]
A
Yeah. It's funny. And this is the big difference between sport and business, I would say. So in sport you need competition.
- [11:07]
B
Yeah.
- [11:08]
A
Because without competition, Right. People aren't going to pay and come.
- [11:10]
B
And watch, watch one team broadcast it doesn't work.
- [11:14]
A
But in business, there's an argument to say, actually, you don't want any competition.
- [11:18]
B
Yeah.
- [11:19]
A
You want to be. You want to monopolize and, and, and smash it. So I understand all that, but, yeah, actually how a business goes about career in that competition. And the best example I can give you is all my playing career, I competed within a dressing room to improve myself, but also every week, every weekend, against another team. Now that's gone for me. I'm not in a dressing room anymore and I'm not playing against the team every weekend. However, I still compete. I compete with myself. So how can we create that competition internally where we just want to keep getting better and improve every Single day. And that starts from whoever's at the top. The person at the top sets a really high standard and is really driven on succeeded and winning. I say winning the right way, winning proper, which means integrity, looking after people, caring for people. If you have that, I think you can create that competition in its most organic, fun way.
- [12:22]
B
Yeah. Marathons. People might say, oh, my God, you're crazy. I'm sure people have said that to my wife.
- [12:31]
A
Says it to me a lot.
- [12:34]
B
How was that? Like, how did you choose that as the expression of how you were going to show the world again?
- [12:42]
A
I found it. People will laugh at this, but I don't like running. I don't like running. I don't like running. Right.
- [12:50]
B
And you started running and just kept running.
- [12:53]
A
I don't like running. I'm asthmatic. I'm. I hated cross country running at school. But when I finished playing and talked about that void, I couldn't create the competition every weekend. I just couldn't. I couldn't find anything that. But running helped me deal with some of that because I found if I run hard enough and long enough on a weekend, my urge to play rugby would go because I was tired. And I found that quite therapeutic. So although during. I didn't.
- [13:27]
B
I never realized that it'd be a therapeutic thing. That's a. That's a really cool way to look at it, actually.
- [13:34]
A
And. And during the runs when I'm out, I don't enjoy it.
- [13:38]
B
Right.
- [13:38]
A
I like everybody else. I've got the same battle going on in here, which is, why are you doing this? Just stop, just walk, go home, put your feet up. I have all that.
- [13:49]
B
Yeah.
- [13:50]
A
But it's whether you choose to listen to it. And thankfully I finished playing and my knees are okay and some of the other joints work like they still should. So I found we probably got really fortunate with. We got a really sweet spot of a window when we did our first challenge because Kovid was around. It was only signed off because we ran it like it was a professional sports team. There were very little charity sporting events going on. Fans weren't allowed in stadiums. The vast majority of the country had been on furlough and had a load of spare money. And suddenly BBC Breakfast supported us. And then it. And suddenly we got a load of momentum from that first one. Yeah.
- [14:38]
B
As an. As a runner question, do you run with sound in your ears or do you run so you are literally running just with your thoughts the whole time?
- [14:47]
A
Yes. Hardcore.
- [14:49]
B
Hardcore. Totally. I mean, I. I know every training I would put Music on or something. A book to listen to or a podcast to listen to. Because, like, you're right when it is just you and that. And then I now swim a lot and the swimming is. Is like running without sound. It's like you're just your thoughts.
- [15:10]
A
Dude, can't you get some waterproof?
- [15:12]
B
Yeah, there are now ones you put on the cheekbones and you can. And you can listen to things and stuff, but I find that I do like the therapeutic nature swimming because it is just me and my thoughts and. Yeah, but I like the fact that you turned running into your competition sort of thing. I do like that you found a way to be comp. Competitive with your own time, with your own self, and then also with others, obviously.
- [15:41]
A
Do you know, with that. It's. There's a real fine line between obsession and passion. And what I was concerned with when I started running was actually, how does the competition play out now? Because if suddenly competition takes over and this becomes an obsession, then I'm disappearing for hours on end when I need to have some family time. So how do I keep it. The competition harnessed up enough so that it can still be a real passion. And I think I'm. I've found a way of being able to do that. Whereas I can run a marathon. I am for a specific time and it'd be really easy to go. No, I'm going to push that. I want to get quicker and quicker and quicker. But I've. I've found to be able to be comfortable. Comfortable enough because running marathon isn't comfortable, but sort of a sweet spot where I can go about my work and my daily business and have enough family time without it being an obsession and losing all that.
- [16:39]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Well, others might argue with the fact seven in seven is possibly a little bit excessive. You know, was that a decision, by the way? Because I know my wife once almost signed up for the seven marathons in seven days on seven continents.
- [16:56]
A
Yes.
- [16:57]
B
And she was very serious at one point about doing that, then got a foot injury and it was like, hang it. You know, that's. That's not going to be a thing. But how did you make that decision of doing seven in seven?
- [17:10]
A
Well, the fact that Rob played number seven, it was all built around that. Now, if Rob had been number 38, I'd have been in a very difficult spot. And I thought, do you know, because how we measure time, I thought a week sounds. Seven days is. Is. Is a good number. And. And so it was all based around that number. And. And it. And it fit the first time, the first one we did then we needed just over 70 grand. We were going to start on the 1st of December, finish on the 7th. We wanted to start seven in the morning every day, just the number seven fit. And it's, it's stuck with our team and, and what we do because it makes you a. Rob is still front and center. However long this, this plays out, Rob will always be the reason why Down.
- [17:58]
B
So average person, how do we convince them to go for it? Most dreams don't die through failure. They die through never doing it, never even writing it down sort of thing. If, if someone listening here was going, you know what, I've got all these dreams can. How do we help them get over that inertia and actually, yeah, write them down, make a plan, go do something with it. What's, what's your thoughts on that?
- [18:30]
A
I think every marathon starts with the first step. So when we look at things in our lives, at times they seem massive, they seem big, they seem gigantic. That why would we undertake this massive thing that could take years and years and years or loads and loads of pain. What I would say is, how do you break that down? How do you chunk it into much smaller sections? How do you make it so that you can get your head around the next three hours, the next day, the next week, and before you know it, by putting these bits together, suddenly you get closer and closer to this thing that's so big. And that's what I'd encourage. Break it down, find ways of chunking sections of it. And I would also always say to people, find 30 minutes a day for you find 30 minutes a day to do some form of exercise, whether it's a walk, whatever it may be. It could be the gym, it could be the bike, could be swimming, whatever. But allow yourself 30 minutes and use that 30 minutes as your time. And, and I think as running has done for me during that 30 minutes, give yourself some perspective, understand that this is a big old thing you're undertaking. But if we go, I'm just going to worry about this next three hours. It's far more easy to get your head around.
- [19:57]
B
Yeah, I think it's, it's easy to put yourself into overwhelm when you set a massive goal. Like if you said, okay, seven in seven, you could overwhelm your brain with that sort of thing. And I think a lot of people do get overwhelmed by dreams and massive things. They see what other people and they do a comparison sort and they're like, I couldn't do seven marathons in seven days and therefore they don't even do one. Well, they don't even do a 5K. You know, I do love that it said chunk it down, break it down.
- [20:29]
A
And we had a bit of a mantra when we do something over seven days, the mantra is just gotta make the start line the next day. Yeah, that's it. Because we get to the start. The hardest bit for most things you do in life is turning up as soon as you get there and you start. Then everything else takes off.
- [20:48]
B
Yeah, yeah. There was a great story about a, you know, guy doing a massive trek and no matter what he did 20 miles a day. Great, great weather, feeling awful. 20 miles, beautiful weather, feeling amazing. 20 miles, you know, and I think that that consistency factor, and that's one thing I've, I've noticed part of your career is there is a just a consistency that breeds that level of performance. Is that something you chose? Is that something you learned through coaching? How did the consistency become a thing?
- [21:22]
A
Yeah, I think I would probably, I try, I try to be as consistent as I can be. What I would say is the reality of that is probably it's not always what you see, so. But I try and I think there's lots of days where I don't want to do me 30 minutes or I think I've, I've been on all day, it's 10 o' clock at night. The last thing I want to do now is go and do 30 minutes on a treadmill or 30 minutes in the gym. I force myself. Yeah, force. And it's not, it's for me that it's me. It's my challenge to myself to be able to commit to it. But yes, consistency, habits, habits. Because you do them over time and you build them up and as soon as you get to that point where it's a habit, then the guilt of not doing it, you feel you've let yourself there. But actually, Brad, I know if I don't do my 30 minutes, I'm not a great person or I was not as good as I should be.
- [22:26]
B
Yeah, There was a great book called streaking and not like running across a football field naked, but building streaks into your life. Like actually just saying, okay, I don't need to do 100 of these. I just need to do 10 push ups per day, but I'm going to do it every single day. And like there was an interesting story in there where they talked about, and for them they were runners as well and they talked about there was day 700 and something and they were getting off a plane and they were doing this and everything happened. It was like we can't, we can't lose it at day 700 and something type thing. So it's like there is that pressure as well of doing it. But leadership, you lead a lot obviously, both in the, the sport, in the coaching. That's lead yourself. What are some of the key attributes that you think make a great leader today and, and how do you embody that?
- [23:21]
A
I guess, yeah, I suppose there be three things and I'll talk about this quite a bit, but humility. I think the best leaders I've worked with have a huge amount of humility. The daughters know or have the right answer. They make mistakes and they're open to say I got this wrong, please can you help me? Or I don't know the answer to this team. Can we come up with a solution for this? Can you help me? And I think when there's a leader involved like that, I think it just garners support and loyalty and pulls teams together. I think when you've got a leader who says he knows everything, never gets anything wrong, he's always right, I think it puts people off. So I think that's really important to start with. Plus I think we all understand whether we want to admit to it or not, we all have weaknesses and surely part your job as a leader is to surround yourself with people who have got strengths, where you've got weaknesses, but also who enhance your day, who bring positivity, who help you through the day and who support you. So that'd be really important. Next one would be you set high standards. The best things I've been around set Icelands, Brad and. And that doesn't mean they're the best at it. It means what they try as hard as they can at everything. And it might be the worst in, the worst in the team at it, but absolutely they are emptying the tank and going for it. And through that you get respect and it allows people to hold others accountable. If, if you set high standards and if you're going for it and you, you give 150 and committed to it every single step, then I think then you create an environment where people then want to get better and improve and set high standards for themselves. And then the last one would be around courage. I think certainly the last decade with the way social media has gone and how popular people want to be, people want to say what they think people want them to say rather than do and say what is right. I Don't think. I think the best leaders I've worked with do and say what is right most of the time. That means at times you're going to be unpopular. It means you're going to get criticized. It means you're going to get laughed at. But if you know it's the right thing for the group or the team or the organization, well, sometimes we have to go through some tough moments. Sometimes we have to have a lot of challenge in our lives that we don't necessarily want. But actually if we live our lives with integrity, trying to do the right thing, trying to look after people and a decision is deemed that it's unpopular or it's criticized, well, it doesn't mean it's wrong. It can still be absolutely right. And so the best ladies would have the courage and at times sacrifice themselves because they know it's right for the. Where they're going.
- [26:09]
B
As you're saying this, I'm just thinking of like three situations in the last month where, you know, I had to make the call. One was with the family and the kids were just like dad was not in the, in the good books in, in that part of the world for quite some time, like. But two, in business where one of them, my partners were very unhappy with, with my decision. But I said, God, this is, we have to do this for the long term. We just have to. It is what it is. And yeah, I, I know that feeling very well. Last month or so, not, not all the time I have to do that.
- [26:45]
A
But yeah, and it's tough. It's lonely. It's lonely being a leader. It's lonely running a business and being at the top and all the eyeballs on you and everybody criticizing everybody saying shouldn't have done this and should have done that. Well, if we always try and do what's right, then.
- [27:00]
B
I love the fact that I run a business coaching company. So, you know, I have a more than a thousand partners in the world that are all the coaches and I get coached a lot. I don't always ask for it, but it, it does come. I always finish with a question. What was the best advice you ever got about success and who did it come from and why? Do you think that's the best advice you ever got?
- [27:25]
A
The best piece of advice I ever got was from a former coach, a New Zealander, a guy called Brian McClellan. Lovely man. Still keep in touch with him. And I suppose I was living this way but couldn't articulate it. I didn't have the words to be able to explain it, but he came up with a very simple phrase, which was to be a champion, you have to be a champion at home first and basically be a good person. Because if you're a good person, you won't just win once, you'll keep winning. And I stuck with me. It's how I try and live my life, trying to look after people, try and do it the right way. And I get stuff wrong all the time. I make mistakes and like we all do. But that's my, my intent is always to try and do the right thing. So it stuck with me. I want to win like everybody else, but I have to do it in the right way. Otherwise, it's empty.
- [28:21]
B
On the Big Success podcast, hit the show notes, click the links, do the learning. We'll be back next week with more of your success.