Carnell Tate's huge season, Ohio State's most valuable assistant and Buckeye books: Around the Shoe

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bill and Doug Show - "Carnell Tate's Huge Season, Ohio State's Most Valuable Assistant and Buckeye Books: Around the Shoe"

Release Date: October 20, 2025
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises & Bill Landis
Guests: Bill Rabinowitz & Marcus Hartman
Podcast Network: Blue Wire

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Episode Overview

In this episode of "The Bill and Doug Show," Doug and Bill are joined by veteran Ohio State beat writers Bill Rabinowitz and Marcus Hartman. The show takes an "around the shoe" format, tackling five key discussion topics relevant to Ohio State football and university lore:

1. Carnell Tate’s breakout season
2. Ohio State's dominant run in recent games
3. The program's most valuable assistant coach
4. Which current Buckeye would make the best subject for a book
5. Behind-the-scenes insights on Buckeye-related book projects

The episode is filled with insight, banter, inside stories from reporters with decades of OSU coverage, and reverence for the evolution of this football powerhouse.

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Key Discussion & Insights

1. Carnell Tate: Defining a Breakout Season

[05:06–11:17]

• Prompt: Describe Carnell Tate’s season in one word.
• Bill Rabinowitz: "Smooth" – Emphasizes Tate’s effortless route-running, long stride, and ability to make tough catches.
  “Double coverage reaches up, just snags it. Great hands, but the route running is just so smooth.” – Rabinowitz [05:06]
• Marcus Hartman: "Glenn-like" – Compares Tate's rise to former Buckeye great Terry Glenn’s unexpected breakout. “He’s great at going downfield and making plays… He’s just kind of a good all-around player, but he can go up and make the contested catches…” – Hartman [05:58]
• Bill Landis: "Lucrative" – Focuses on Tate’s future, both as a likely high draft pick and for the sizable NIL investment made to keep him. “He has already solidified himself as a first round pick… But his play is going to earn him a whole lot of money when it comes NFL time.” – Landis [08:20]
• Doug: Invents "Effectric" (efficient + electric) to describe Tate’s unique combination of productivity and highlight plays, citing advanced stats. “There is no better combination of efficient and electric in a receiver in college football.” – Doug [09:26]

Memorable Moment:
Doug’s playful push to make “Effectric” happen:
“Can we get this going, you guys? This is free for everybody now… We’re gonna have Joel Klatt and Gus Johnson saying Effectric about Cornell Tate.” – Doug [10:43]

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2. Ohio State’s Recent Four-Game Domination

[11:41–18:35]

• Prompt: On a scale of 1–10, how impressed are you with the Buckeyes outscoring four opponents 134–25?
• Hartman: 8/10 – Highlights OSU’s “game control,” depth, and the impressive road win at Washington.
  “That they've had so much game control is very impressive… And there were no letdowns after that.” – Hartman [12:08]
• Landis: 9/10 – Praised sustained high performance, minus minor rushing attack issues. “They checked a lot of boxes and winning those four games and controlling them the way they did. I have almost no issue with what I saw really.” – Landis [13:30]
• Doug: 9/10 – Points out that Ohio State’s dominance paradoxically hurts Big Ten perception, as their success obscures the true strength of their opponents. “Ohio State’s so good I almost think it makes Minnesota and Washington and Illinois look not as good as they actually are…” – Doug [15:05]
• Rabinowitz: 9/10 – Praises how OSU “takes care of business” and remains immune to upsets that plague other blue bloods. “It’s just hard to do. My analysis yesterday, all these other blue bloods have lost, all of them. And Ohio State stands alone.” – Rabinowitz [16:23]
• Gentle roasting among panelists over whose logic is soundest (Doug feels left out as Rabinowitz sides with the others) [18:35].

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3. Ohio State’s Most Valuable Assistant Coach

[21:12–32:12]

• Landis: Larry Johnson (Defensive Line) “Losing four starters… I think Kaden Curry and Kaden McDonald are among like the seven best players on this team right now. And… Larry and his defensive line staff have done a nice job.” – Landis [21:23] – Praises defensive line’s development and Johnson’s resilience after criticism.
• Doug: Billy Fessler (Quarterbacks) “If Julian [Sayn] is completing 80% of his passes… and it’s his first year as a starter… I do think Billy Fessler is qualified to be in that position.” – Doug [23:26] – Questions past stability, credits Fessler with Sayn’s rapid progress and culture change.
• Rabinowitz: Keenan Bailey (Tight Ends) “He wrote on the board… ‘You are the least talented unit on the team.’… And he’s gotten this unit to play well.” – Rabinowitz [26:33] – Details Bailey’s motivational methods and balancing a deep, productive group.
• Hartman: James Laurinaitis (Linebackers) “He’s obviously had them ready. He’s got their minds clear and able to take on all of that stuff.” – Hartman [28:54] – Points to the successful development of important LB contributors, especially Arvell Reese and Sonny Styles.
• Discussion: The group recognizes a well-rounded, revitalized staff, noting less “leakage” than in recent years, and the success of even the less-heralded assistants like Carlos Locklyn and Tim Walton. Landis observes, “It does seem like a fairly strong staff.” [32:12]

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4. Buckeye Book Subjects: Who Deserves a Biography?

[34:11–42:28] Prompt: Which current Buckeye would make for the most intriguing book subject?

• Doug: Ethan Onyanwa (Offensive Lineman) “To tell an NIL story through this guy… it doesn’t go well, and then what? …This is how you’re… trying to figure out this room on the fly.” – Doug [34:11] – Would explore NIL, transfer market, unfulfilled expectations, and student athlete adaptation.
• Rabinowitz: Tegra Tshabola (Offensive Lineman) “Comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo, speaks like five or seven languages… remake his life… really interesting guy.” – Rabinowitz [37:06]
• Hartman: Kaden McDonald (Nose Tackle) “They haven’t had a guy like him… completely out of nowhere… they’ve got this nose guard… that they haven’t had since the late 90s maybe.” – Hartman [38:42]
• Landis: Joey Velazquez (Former Wolverine/Buckeye) “Two time national champ on both sides of the rivalry. It’ll never happen again… I think you could frame a modern Ohio State Michigan rivalry book around Joey Velazquez.” – Landis [40:57]

Panel reflection:
The less-heralded players often “have the stories” (“The backups have the stories, right? I mean, they tell you what’s what.” – Doug [42:23]), and the panel suggests not just stars make compelling subjects.

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5. Inside the World of Buckeye Books

[43:07–58:41]

• Bill Rabinowitz on "Buckeye Brotherhood" (2024 championship season)
  • Available: October 21, 2025
  • Based on 50+ interviews (players, coaches, Ryan Day’s family, etc.)
  • Insights into the how and why Ohio State won beyond gameplay – in-depth looks at family struggles, turning-point plays (e.g., Sawyer’s scoop-and-score per [43:32]), and the aftermath of the Michigan loss.
  • Personal revelation: “It’s hell… The whole time, this sucks, this sucks, I’m terrible… If you’re lucky, by the end, you feel like it doesn’t suck.” – Rabinowitz [47:54]
• Marcus Hartman’s Dream Project:
  • Aspires to write “The Winning Strategies of Ohio State Football,” a history of schematic innovations across eras. “Sort of an interesting schematic wrinkle to, like, all of their national championship teams… There’s an unending hunger for Ohio State content.” – Hartman [49:33, 60:59]
• Bill Landis: Interested in immersive “embedded” season-long chronicles, à la John Feinstein’s or Buzz Bissinger’s classic sports books.
  • Notes the challenge of access and execution in today’s sports media environment.
  • Shouts out Rabinowitz’s book: “I actually have read Bill’s book. It’s very good.” – Landis [55:47]
• Doug: Waxes on the idea of chronicling college football’s “power shift,” referencing the Big Ten/SEC storylines around the famous 2006 OSU–Michigan game [57:22].

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Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Landis on Larry Johnson’s Redemption:
  “He also won the Cold War against Jim Knowles, so good for him.” [23:17]

• Doug invents “Effectric”: “There is no better combination of efficient and electric in a receiver in college football... Can we get this going, you guys?” [09:26, 10:43]

• Rabinowitz on book writing pain:
  “I think the whole time, this sucks. This sucks. I’m terrible. …If you’re lucky, by the end, you feel like it doesn’t suck.” [47:54]

• Group camaraderie and wisecracks throughout, especially on the unsung utility of “backups” as book subjects and the realistic economics of writing sports books. “If you're going to do something for money, don't write a book.” – Rabinowitz [59:34]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:06] – Describing Carnell Tate’s season: “smooth,” “Glenn-like,” “lucrative,” and “Effectric”
• [11:41] – Impressions on Ohio State’s four-game run
• [21:12] – Most valuable assistant coach debate
• [34:11] – Which Buckeye deserves a book?
• [43:07] – Bill Rabinowitz on the process and pain of writing “Buckeye Brotherhood”
• [49:33] – Marcus Hartman on his book ambitions and Ohio State’s schematic evolution top to bottom

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Closing & Further Resources

• Where to Find Bill Rabinowitz:
  • Book signings in Columbus and Dayton (Gramercy Books 11/10, Book Loft, Barnes & Noble, etc.)
  • Substack: [Details in show]
• Marcus Hartman:
  • Press Pros Magazine, Buckeye Sports Bulletin, cusswordsports.com, YouTube “Chalk Talk” clips
• Doug & Bill Landis:
  • billanddugosu.substack.com
  • Additional commentary, game coverage, and podcast episodes

Next week: Ari Wasserman joins for more Buckeye talk.

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This summary captures the tone, energy, and rich conversational detail of the episode while efficiently guiding newcomers through its content.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. It's around the Shoe. We do it every Monday. Doug Lamoris and Bill Landis joined by two special guests from the robust Ohio State media mob. Is that the right word? Bill Rabinowitz and Marcus Hartman joining us this week. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Bill Rabinowitz, how long have you been around Ohio State football?

[C]

I've covered Ohio State since 2011 for the dispatch until September. I took a Ganette buyout. Purely my decision. That wasn't pushed out. It was just, you know, it was just time and honestly, honest to God. And I'm on Substack now, as you can see below my name. Please subscribe. Fellow substackers. Right. We're trying to spread the word about subject.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So Bill. Bill 2000. That's a long time. We're going to talk about your book at the end of the show, which is coming out on Tuesday. Just for the people who watch this show for like 31 seconds are like, I don't want to watch this. Tell it. What's your deal? What's the name of your book again?

[C]

Buckeye Brotherhood, and It's about the 2024 season. It's based on interviews with more than 50 people, including Ryan Day, all the coaches, almost every player, Nina Day, RJ Day. I mean, I tried to go as deep as I could and do as much as I could in four months.

[B]

Okay, so. So, Bill, thanks for being here. Marcus Hartman, how long have you been covering Ohio State sports?

[E]

I would say so I was. I started my first day in the press box was the 2003 Washington game. And I department, I used to have to answer the phones. If there would be a touchdown or any big play, the truck would call to the TV truck would call and just double check everything, all the details and everything like that. So that was my introduction to the Ohio State football press box. And then I spent, I think it was eight years with Buckeye Sports Bulletin and then nine years with Dayton Daily News. And much like Bill, although I did it first, so I think he's copying. I quit. I did not get a buyout, unfortunately, I quit from the Daily News in the summer, basically because they didn't want me to cover Ohio State full time anymore. And I decided this is my thing and this is what I want to do. So, you know, I. I rounded up a few freelance things, and I've also got my own site that I'm doing. And so there's been a lot to take on here since the end of the July, but enjoying it.

[B]

Yeah. Crazy. So for people who don't know, a phone is a thing that used to ring that would be plugged into the wall and you would pick it up and talk into it. And Marcus used to do that. So the world knew what was happening with Ohio State football. We're going to talk about five Ohio State football topics. Actually, like four Ohio State football talks, and we're going to talk about books. At the end. We'll go, you know, a few minutes on each. Go around the shoe, give everybody a chance to answer. And we're going to start with Carnell Tate. Carnell Tate, really having quite the season, folks. He is, I. I mean, maybe arguably the breakout star of this Ohio State season. I'm not sure. So, Bill Rabinovich, we will start with you. What is your one word to describe Carnell Tate season so far for the Buckeyes?

[C]

I mean, his style of play just how I described as a player. Smooth, I think. Really, really smooth. He, you know, He, He. You know, I thought about this the other day. Jeremiah Smith's like a thoroughbred, right? I mean, he's just like built like the prototype wide receiver. And I don't have like a comparison that way with, with Carnell, but he's just, you know, he's got kind of a longer stride, great hands, great reach on that touchdown catch he made on Saturday. Double coverage reaches up, just snags it. Great hands, but the route running is just so smooth.

[B]

Yeah. Fluid. Very. Oh, I accidentally said a word. All right, I know. I'm sorry. My word. My word's gonna be good. My word's gonna be good. So don't worry, I'm not ruining for anybody.

[D]

Smooth.

[B]

So this is smooth for Bill Marcus Carnell Tate, what do you think?

[E]

I was gonna say incredible. But actually listening to Bill, I got another one. It's Terry Glenn. Like, so Glenn, like, would be one word in that junior having like an incredible breakout season that you sort of didn't see coming. You know, Glenn obviously didn't completely. I mean, I'm sorry, Tate didn't completely come out of nowhere like Terry Glenn did, but he was just so overshadowed by the guys last year and by Jeremiah and, And that smoothness. And he's just kind of a good all around player, but he can go up and he can, he can make the contested catches and I mean, he's. He's great at going downfield and making plays. So that's what I decided to go with. At the last second, I called an audible and I'm going with Glenn, like, for his impact on.

[B]

Well, so that's. That's all. That's. That's the kind of comparison that only a guy who used to answer the phone in the Ohio State press box could make. Because, like, that's where. Because Marcus, you have a great depth of knowledge about Ohio State's past. And I think one of the most interesting things, Marcus, about Ohio State is constantly trying to compare Ohio State to itself. And there's so many players where like, man, who does this remind me of? It's like, well, you have a whole batch of Buckeye to choose from of, like, who a guy might remind you of. So I bet you, Marcus, don't you think there are people hearing you say Terry Glenn and going like, oh, yeah, that's a good one.

[E]

Hopefully. Yeah, I mean, that, like, that's really just kind of came to me because I, I couldn't think of anything that I thought was interesting. So I was going to settle on incredible, but I wasn't that happy with it. And the incredible part was really just because the story more than the player. He's a good player, but you see guys like that. But the. Just his impact is incredible when you think of all the other things that are. That are there. But then again, that's sort of the story with, with Terry Glenn from 95. I mean, nobody thought anything of him coming in before that season. And then they had this unstoppable offense and he was the best receiver in the country. And so it was like. And you look back and it's like, well, yeah, of course that happened, but there was no inkling that it was going to happen. And as a spoiler, I've been doing some stuff on the 95 season for Buckeye sports bulletins, so that's a little bit. It's more about Eddie George, but reading all the recaps from BSB from back then, you're kind of reminded of. Of the. What a phenomenon he was. And Tate has been something. I mean, they asked for an AP story on him. On him last week and, and, and then he, he came through with the big game on Saturday.

[B]

Yeah, very cool. Landis, you got a word for Carnell Tate?

[D]

Yeah. Lucrative. Guy's making himself some money. He is squarely in the conversation, I think, to be the first receiver taken in the draft this spring. He, Jordan Tyson at Arizona State, Makai Lemon at USC are probably the top three guys who are battling for that positioning. And I don't know if Cornell is going to be the first one, but I think he has already solidified himself as a first round pick. That was a little bit of a question for me. Right. Like I.

[E]

Good.

[D]

Of course. First round talent worthy of being included like in. In this outstanding lineage of Ohio State receivers who have gone on the first round. I wasn't entirely sure coming into the season, but. But he's answered that question, I think, emphatically with the way that he has played this year. So also, it's lucrative because Ohio State had to pay a lot of money to keep him when teams like Oregon and Texas came after him in the off season. But his play is going to earn him a whole lot of money when it comes NFL time in a few months. So lucrative is the word that I would use.

[B]

That's good. That's good. You're obsessed with money, though, Landisk. My God. You just.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Sometimes you're forced to be. I'm gonna make up a word because I am trying to. The thing that I've been enamored with about Carnell Tate. Jeremiah Smith has 63 targets this year. Carnell Tate has 41. So Carnell Tate is 22 targets behind Jeremiah Smith, but only has 15 fewer yards than Jeremiah Smith. His reception rate of how often he catches passes thrown to him. He has 34 catches on 41 targets. That reception rate of 82.9 is tied for north, tied for ninth among power conference receivers. But everybody above him has a lower depth of target and has a lower yards per reception. So there is no better combination of efficient and electric in a receiver in college football. So I had to sound this out. I put it down, like spelled out syllables. Effectric. You guys like Effectric? I was gonna use that elite Elysian elation. I think Effectric's better. I also am worried am I going to accidentally swear? So wait, wait, you. You said smooth, but you actually almost said Effectric. Is that what you're saying, Rabinowitz?

[C]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. So on substack, that's one of the great things about this is you can make up words. So. Right. I mean, this is. Can we get this going, you guys? This is free for everybody. Now feel free to use this effector, man. That guy. We're gonna have Joel Klatt and Gus Johnson saying Effectric about Cornell tape by the end of the year. Mark it down.

[E]

It's all good or bad. That'll ruin the word.

[B]

Yeah. No, that's for sure. Carnell tate gain a 21 effectric. Yeah. Thanks for being here, Gus.

[E]

Sorry.

[B]

Ohio State's excellent board. You.

[C]

The funny thing is, Gus Johnson did the forward for the cardio autobiography that I co wrote with Cardell, and he sounds like that in regular conversation.

[D]

You only get to plug one book, man.

[C]

I wasn't plugging. Well, sure, go ahead and buy it, but. But I'm just telling you brought up Gus Johnson. You started to sound like Gus Johnson. That's why I brought it up. He sounds like that. Real life.

[B]

Is he bored by Ohio State's excellence in real life or is it only when he's on tv? All right, so we're excited about Carnell Tate. He's having a good year. Marcus Hartman will start with you with question number two. Ohio State outscored Washington, Minnesota and Illinois and Wisconsin by a combined score of 134, 25 over this recent four game stretch between off weeks. On a scale of 1 to 10, how impressed are you by that?

[E]

I think I'm gonna. I'm gonna go with an eight. You know, I mean, shutting all those teams out would have Been maybe a lot to ask, but they certainly, we've certainly seen times where at least one of those games would have been kind of a clunker that they won 21 to 10 or, or in the Urban Meyer era, they won 42 to 28 or something like that. So you know, that they've had so much game control is very impressive. And I think in Wisconsin is no good. Obviously Minnesota might end up being decent and I think, I mean they laid an egg almost at Michigan. They didn't look good, they. But I really like Washington actually more than Illinois. We'll see how those teams shake out if any of them can sort of separate themselves from the, the middle of the Big Ten. But you know, Washington's got those some dynamic guys that you really have to account for and they've got a good defensive coordinator and I think pretty decent defensive personnel. So that was the, and, and then you throw in the trip. I mean, I think that was by far the most impressive performance of all of these games. And I really, I, I kind of looking at the underlying numbers, I don't know that Illinois is really that good. Statistically they're not. So. But you got to go out and play the games obviously. So that Washington game still sticks with me as being very impressive. And then there were no letdowns after that.

[B]

Yeah, Landis, what's your number?

[D]

Yeah, I'm a 9. I agree with a lot of what, what Marcus said. You know, coming into the year I thought that four game stretch could be a spot where Ohio State might take a loss. And thinking specifically about the Washington and Illinois games, as the season played out for a few weeks and we got to that moment, I was less convinced that Ohio State would lose, but still expecting one of those games to just, you know, be a BSC kind of game from Ohio State, we've seen that before. They're kind of hard to avoid as you go through the Big Ten season and, and they didn't really have one. So they kind of, they checked a lot of boxes and winning those four games and controlling them the way that they did. I have, I have almost no issue with what I saw, really. I don't have any issue with what I saw on defense. And the only thing on offense that is honestly keeping it from a 10 is, is the rushing attack, namely against Illinois and a little bit against Wisconsin, like that, that left something to be desired. But overall to go through that, to make the trip out west, to have like kind of no reprieve after it, to have to go on the Road two other times and I think more or less put a pretty good foot forward. Was a nice, nice stretch for the Buckeyes.

[B]

So I, I'll give him a 9. And the reason that it's not a 10 is because like, I, I really did think they had a chance to lose one of those games. I like predicted they'd lose one of those games. It just felt like maybe like for the first time since that Oregon game in 21 that like Ryan Day would kind of have a game like this that's not against a. But it's just like, man, it's a little tougher than people think and you lose that game. I actually think it's bad, though. It's not a 10 because it's bad for the Big Ten that Ohio State didn't lose one of those because they made it care.

[D]

You can't hold that against Ohio State.

[B]

No, they made it look too easy because Alabama beat in the same stretch, beat Georgia by three, Vanderbilt by 16, Missouri by three and Tennessee by 17. And people are acting like Kaylin DeBoer is the third coming of Nick Saban and Bear Bryant. And so, and, but like they're this, this manifestation of like, ah, the sec. They all beat each other. Ohio State's so good. I almost think it like makes Minnesota and Washington and Illinois look not as good as they actually are because Minnesota was Washington and Illinois are all 5 and 1 in their games other than Ohio State. Right. So I do think that there are three pretty competitive team. Wisconsin stinks, but like, it's almost. If Washington would have jumped up and beaten Ohio State or if Illinois or Minnesota had done the same, Ohio State would still be respected. They'd still be obviously in the playoff. But I don't actually mean. And it's not so high State's fault, but it's the Media's fault, it's ESPN's fault for not realizing that like, Ohio State's so good. You forget that the Big Ten does have some death because there's nobody like Ohio State in the sec. So I'm dinging him a point because of the incompetence of the rest of college football. Sorry, Ohio State. Rabinowitz, what do you got?

[C]

I'm still trying to figure that, figure that logic out, but that's okay. Yeah, I, I agree with almost everything Bill Landa said. I. What we had to do, or I had to do for the Dispatch, one of my last things there was go game by game and predict Ohio State, you know, and I just think it's really, really hard to go undefeated. And so the game I picked them to lose with Washington, I knew it's going to be the first road game, long cross country trip. They have a dynamic quarterback, skill position, players and they handle their business and they really did. And that's, that's the hallmark of Ohio State under Ryan Day. They don't lose games like that. The only unranked team they've lost to is Michigan last year. And of course that game is a different entity. The only team they've lost to has been ranked lower than 12. They haven't lost a team ranked lower than 12. They lost Oregon and was a 21, I feels. And so he takes care of business. You know, that's hard to do. My analysis yesterday, I guess, you know, all these other blue bloods have lost, you know, all of them. And Ohio State stands alone. It's like they're immune to all the things, short term and long term that afflicts every other program in the country. They never had an extended dip. Never having lost consecutive at consecutive losing seasons since the stadium opened. Well, 22 to 24. I mean 19, 22 to 24. It's incredible. So, yeah, I give him a nine. I thought Illinois would be a challenging game. I, I agree with Bill. I was and, and Marcus that I was more concerned about Washington than Illinois because Illinois just doesn't have the playmakers. The kind of teams that can ups at Ohio State are dynamic quarterbacks who can run. You know, Illinois didn't really have that. You know, Wisconsin was just, I mean they didn't even try. I mean at the end of the first half he calls timeout. Luke Fickle calls and then has a run, calls for a run play up the middle. What's the point? So I mean, I like Luke Fickle. I think he's a terrific guy. Trying to put him out of his misery. Right. I mean it's just miserable up there. And what was the other game? I forget the other game.

[B]

Minnesota.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Minnesota is just kind of like your generic middle of the pack Big ten team. So they handled their business. They, they weren't challenged. So I give them a nine.

[B]

Yeah. I liked how Bill kept saying during his part, I agree with Marcus. I agree with Bill. I agree with Bill. I agree with Marcus.

[D]

I didn't agree with Doug.

[B]

I kind of got, I felt left out there for a little bit.

[E]

Did you feel bad?

[D]

Okay, sorry.

[B]

I do feel bad.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by. Indeed. Hiring isn't just about finding someone willing to take the job. You need the right person with the right background who can move your business forward. If I wanted candidates who match what I'm looking for, I trust Indeed Sponsored Jobs Hiring Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job. Posts seen on other job sites give your job the best chance to be seen with Indeed's Sponsored Jobs. They help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Sponsored Jobs boosts your post for quality candidates so you can reach the exact people you want faster and it makes a big difference. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs posted directly on indeed are 90% more likely to report a hire than non sponsored Jobs because you reach a bigger pool of quality candidates. Join the 1.6 million companies that sponsor their jobs with Indeed. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all of your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.comBWN just go to Indeed.comBWN right now and support our show by saying that you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.combn terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the right way with Indeed.

[F]

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[B]

Landis. Third question we'll start with you. Who is the most valuable Ohio State assistant coach so far this season? And you can't say Matt Patricia.

[D]

Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a shout out to a guy that I think has been, you know, criticized quite a bit over the last couple years? I'll say Larry Johnson. I think. I think the defensive line has done, has done a nice job this year losing four starters of the caliber that those guys were last season to. You know, you brought back some experience, but not a ton. Especially a defensive tackle. He did not have a ton of experience. I think Kaden Curry and Kaden McDonald are among like the seven best players on this team right now. And they've been developing with Larry for a couple of years. I think they've done. Larry and his defensive line staff have done a nice job getting a guy like Will Smith ready to play. I think perhaps Edric Houston could be starting to turn a corner with the way he's played the last two times he's been out there. So that's encouraging. I think the stuff that Matt Patricia has brought to the table with the five man fronts and the different job responsibilities of some of these defensive linemen how and have now and seem to have taken to pretty well is a credit to the players, obviously. But, but also to Larry. So even like Zion Grady as a freshman, I think is playing well. Right. So it's. I understand the criticisms over the last couple of years and certainly I've been a part of them, but I also want to point out when they're playing pretty well and I think that group.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So I'll give it to Larry.

[B]

Did you notice Landis Rabinowitz and Hartman were so impressed by your answer? You said Larry Johnson and they both took a drink simultaneously that they both, if you're listening on podcast, they're both like, oh, yeah. Oh, Landis, I'm gonna sit back and just let you cook and take a long swig here because that's such a good answer. Because I do think, don't you think you're saying, Bill, that there'd been a little, I mean, Larry Johnson legitimately, I think is, you could argue is one of the greatest assistant coaches in college football history or position coaches in college football history. But I think in terms of faith from the Ohio State fan base, there had been a little leakage the past couple years. Yes.

[D]

Yeah. And he also won the Cold war against Jim Knowles. So good for him.

[E]

I was gonna say, I thought the number one concern I had coming into the season was that Larry would have the defensive line playing hero ball again, would tank the defense. And it's been the exact opposite. So I think that's a good observation.

[B]

Yeah. And yeah. That like Larry Johnson, long time loyal Penn State Nittany lion was like shuffled Jim Knowles off the state College and was like, I won. Okay. I'm gonna say. And I, and I, I might need help with this. So Bill, I'm sure, I'm sure you're not going to agree, so you can just disagree right now. But I need help from you guys because I'm partly of why I'm giving this assistant coach credit is because of who he's not and who he. Who I think he is a better answer than. Than the guy before him in a similar job. And I'm gonna go with Billy Fessler as the quarterback's coach, because if Julian saying is completing 80% of his passage, which is the best completion percentage in college football history, if he continues on this pace and it's his first year as a starter, I know that I. We still probably think Ryan Day is very intimately involved with the quarterbacks, but I was all. When Corey Dennis was the quarterbacks coach, I was always worried about that room because I wasn't sure. Like, I didn't think that guy was. Was qualified enough to be the quarterbacks coach at Ohio State. And you just look at it. So I don't know. It's like, could this young guy be playing any better? And then I think Lincoln Keenholz is a good backup, and here comes Tavian Sinclair, and they've got the room stacked up. And so I think Ohio State fans probably should and do feel good about the guy in that room, because I do think Billy Fessler is qualified to be in that position. So should we be giving him any credit for the way that Julian Saying is playing football right now? Marcus, yes or no?

[E]

Yeah, that's a good observation, too, because that's another thing. Before the season, I did write something like, basically, well, what if the quarterbacks don't come through? Because if you look at the last three seasons, how much development was really going on? I mean, McCord had a high, had a. Had a hard ceiling, apparently. But not only that. Last year, Howard came mostly baked, obviously, but they obviously had zero faith at all in the backups because they put Howard in there in the Michigan game when he was playing awful. And we saw that in behind McCord. Those guys look like they couldn't play at all. Brown didn't develop at all. So I do think that. I think quarterback coaching was a major concern after CJ Stroud left the building. So I think that's a really good observation from that standpoint, too. And you kind of take for granted because I definitely. I mean, I doubt that it's. I mean, maybe it is, but I doubt that it's just all Ryan Day. I still think that Day really is doing all these other things as well. Credited Festler last year all the time, and unsolicited. It's not like we come in and said, hey, talk, say good things about Billy Fessler. I mean, it was like most people were probably like, who is that guy? He's talking about, and he would. He had good things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So take that, Rabinowitz. Marcus, like my answer. Bill, who you got first distant coach here?

[C]

Well, I will give both you guys credit. Larry was my first choice, and Doug was my second choice. So I'm gonna go with somebody who, you know, a little under the radar. I'm gonna go with Keenan Bailey because he has gotten this unit, and I'll share this little. I know, you know, you're gonna give me her time about this little etiquette. But he. He wrote on the board last year, the start of spring practice, this. It told the players, you are the least talented unit on the team. And they're all looking at him like, this is 24. They're looking at him like, wait a minute, what's going on here? He, like, told them, you guys suck, essentially. Yeah. And they. Sorry.

[B]

And they wrote that on my board before this show started. He said, doug, you are the least talented person show.

[C]

But so. So Keenan Bailey got that unit to play well. And last year, I mean, G. Scott had a. You know, a solid year for them. And then this year, they've got, like, five guys, and he is somehow balancing that. Max Claire is the headliner, but Will Kazmar, Jelani Thurman, Nate Roberts, as a. As a freshman, kind of plays that fullback position and short yardage. I'm forgetting somebody. Am I. Am I not Christian? Right. You know, they're all contributing. And so, yeah, I think Larry Johnson's done a great job. I mean, replacing four starters is really hard to do. A Kaden Curry. Well, you could say all of them have emergent stars. Right. I mean, all of them have. I mean, Taiwan Malone, who was kind of written off, you know, the whole baseball. I mean, he's played really well. He made that play against Illinois. It was like, holy crap. I mean, that was a great play by the goal line. And then Billy Fessler, like Doug said, I mean, Julian, 80% is insane. Will Howard has the Ohio state record at 73% to. To go from 73 to 80. And some of those. Some of the 20% are deliberate throwaways.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, smart plays where he's throwing the ball away.

[B]

I.

[C]

You know, it's. It's really impressive what Julian S. Has done. And. And like Marcus said, look, head coach today cannot be in the room with these guys all the time. He's got so many other responsibilities. The CEO, essentially. So, yes, he has to delegate it to Billy Fessler, and the results speak for themselves.

[B]

Yeah. All right, Hartman, what You got.

[E]

I'm gonna go with James Laurinitis because the two. The important role that you've got Arvel Reed and Sonny Styles playing, he's got. There's a lot for them to handle. So he's obviously had them ready. He's got their minds clear and able to take on all of that stuff. And. And he must be, you know, working well with Patricia from that standpoint in terms of being able to combine. There's a lot of things kind of put together to get those guys playing like that and then use them correctly. That's why I thought, you know, it's been meaning interesting because Patricia said a couple of times how he was able to use the spring to evaluate those guys, but he credited the staff also with kind of saying, here's what these guys are good at and here's what they're not. So that he was able to, you know, utilize these guys kind of all to the best of their ability. And your linebackers coach is kind of at Ohio State is like, what have you done for me lately? Kind of a thing as well. I know he's kind of been under. He's been under some scrutiny. And then this year that these guys are having such a good year, and that's been the way. All the way back to, you know, fickle was. Was a genius some years and a dunce some years. It kind of depended on how experienced the guys were and. And what they were able to do. So I. I think you've got to be. There's just so much. It's so impressive what Reese and style. And it's. You know, honestly, it's hard to evaluate linebackers unless they're obviously doing something really bad or doing something really good because they're sort of a cog in the machine. But they're. They've been so good and at so many different things. And, you know, for east, it's not like he had played a whole lot. He played a little bit. And Styles, you know, is kind of coming into his own now after moving around positions. But I. And then you've got Pierce. I mean, I don't think anybody expected him to play as much as he has played. So he's got these guys really in a good place.

[C]

You know, had that one game where it was like, oh, this freshman can play.

[B]

Yeah. Landis, do you think when you think about the. The staff cohesively. Because I think you could make an argument for Carlos Lachlan and the way he's brought Bo Jackson and now maybe Isaiah west along and like, you know, trying to figure out this room on the fly. I mean Tim Walton obviously is at the top of his with the corners. Matt Carreri, I don't nobody mentioned Brian Hartline, but like obviously the receivers are like the best position group in America. Do you feel? I, I certainly, I think a lot of people have felt like there have been times when there's, you kind of felt like a hole on the staff of like, I don't know about this. Do you like when you go 1 through 10 with the assistant coaches, are there, are there fewer leaks than maybe there have been in other years?

[D]

Yeah, I think so. Really? The Only, the only one. Well, obviously like the map Patricia hire raised a lot of eyebrows, but he's, he's answered all those questions and certainly he was experienced enough to get to get the job that he got. The only one that was like kind of strange or like off, off the radar in terms of positional fit was Tyler Bowen because he had not really coached offensive line before. But then you go out and get Marcus Johnson and Charlie Dickey to kind of help him out, who are very experienced offensive line coaches. So even I think that, you know, there's questions on the offensive line certainly, but I don't think that's going poorly to this point. So no, I don't, I don't know that. I look at the staff up and down and, and point to a spot and say like, that's the weakness right there. It does seem like a fairly strong staff.

[A]

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[G]

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[B]

All right, so topic number four is still about Ohio State football, but we're starting to talk a little bit about book stuff. So the question is, pick one player off this team to write a book about off the current roster. Who is it? And I'm gonna go off the board here just so that Rabinowitz disagrees. And I would, I'm gonna say Ethan Onianwa. And I think you could tell an nil story through this guy who's a three year starter at Rice. And then it's like, holy moly. You have a chance to go to Ohio State and Tom Luganbill from ESPN is saying like, this is the best offensive lineman in the portal and he has offers from Florida State and Oklahoma and Texas A and M and Iowa and how much money does he actually get from Ohio State to come and probably be the starting left tackle for the defending national champion and this brave new world of college football and all the opportunity it provides and then it doesn't go well. And then what? And that you can tell, I think this story of nothing is guaranteed. There are teams, like, how are they evaluating these guys? Like, how did Ohio State really figure out that they wanted Ethan Onion? What was that process? And I'm like intrigued by. And it's not like a shot at the player. It's just the, the, the idea of, it's this whole new part of college football that is fundamental and primary. It's not a bonus. It's not like, hey, Joe Burrow's available. Ed Orgeron is like, give me that guy down in Baton Rouge. It's like, this is how you're, they're like, hey, we need to add players to help our team, but how do you really find out about them and who do you ask and what's that process like for both program and player? And then when it doesn't go as you expect, because certainly Ohio State's paying, I assume, Ethan Onyanwa as a starting off tackle, and he's currently like a backup interior offensive lineman. What does that mean? And so I think it's not, because I think sometimes, like when things don't go right and then everybody has to adjust, what's that like? Is he homesick? Does he wish that he was back at Rice? Is he glad that he came here? Is he meeting new people? Is it an opportunity that he's. He's glad he took. Even if it doesn't work out how he expected, I think it would be a chance to maybe tell an nil story, because this, I think, happens more and people forget about it. And then you just remember the huge nil successes. Right? You know, everyone knows Fernando Mendoza, but there's some that don't go that way, right? So everyone, you know, hey, you get Caleb Downs and Quinn, Sean Judkins and Will Howard in the portal, and you win the national championship. But it doesn't always go that way. So anyway, I knew nobody else would take that. Rabinowitz, you're done though, right? This is theoretical. I'm not asking for another Bill Rabinowitz book. Okay, you're written out. You've written 500, 000 words about Ohio State football. But if you were going to write one about a player off this team, who would it be?

[C]

Well, first of all, I think your idea is actually a really good one. And I was not obviously what I was thinking of, but I just think you could tell the story of nil and just how uncertain it is through that. You know, I will go with somebody that nobody would pick because he's not a star, I mean, at least among the alignment or about the starters. Just because I know his story, Tegra Shabola, it comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo, speaks like five or seven languages or something like that. You know, it came here and that country is now on the banned list. So he couldn't come. Now, if this were 20 years ago, he would not be allowed to come here and. And remake his life. His family wasn't like dirt poor or anything. They were professionals, parents were professionals. But they could see the kind of, the chaos going around them. And they said, let's get to America. They had family in Cincinnati. They settled there. You know, he. He came to Ohio State, I forget. As a very young player, and saw the Woody was like, I want to be here, you know. Has he been a great player? No, he hasn't, but he's been a starter, you know, he was a starter on a national championship team starting this year and a really interesting guy if you ever had a chance to talk to him at length. A really interesting guy again, would it sell a lot of books, the Tiger show story? No, but in terms of the story, you know, you could go way back to the whole Africa stuff and, and all that. So, you know, I wish we had time to tell those stories. I couldn't get into most of it even in the book, but just, you know, it's, it's just in terms of fascinating story. That's a great.

[B]

Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Marcus, what do you have?

[E]

Well, I, I think the race would be Caleb Downs and so I figured someone else would say that there's already books written about him, the national people coming in. But I thought actually to go off the board a little bit, Kaden McDonald would be interesting because they haven't had a guy like him in a long time. And it's again where it's like completely out of nowhere I guess that they're doing this with the defensive line. I figured it would go back to being Larry Johnson. Everything before the season was about Edric Houston being able to be a dominant three technique and then he's, you know, kind of still trying to find his way. But they've got this nose guard who, that they haven't had this type of guy since like the late 90s maybe because even the good nose guards they've had were like Luke Fickle who were like, like 300 pound or less wrestlers who just played on, on guile more than anything else. And so then there's this guy who is a huge part of the defense and you know, you could go back and talk to the story about how you've got to develop. There's a million guys who maybe hit have his measurements, but they're not, they don't have the athleticism and, and I don't know how many guys they brought in who just didn't answer the bell. They didn't develop and, and the way that guy's playing and, and just kind of a lot of the stuff that they want to do is sort of based on how good he has been. I think that could be an interesting story that sort of like, like your idea that there could be kind of a bigger thing to it, you know, and talk about, you Know the unique role of these big middle plugging nose tackles. Because I've been making the case that for a long time you could run a 3, 4 if you want to. You don't. In college you don't have to have a 320 pound nose tackle. He just has to be Luke Fickle or somebody who, you know, you just have to be able to demand a double team because if they don't double team you, you'll make the tackle now and then not be blown out of. Completely blown out of the hole by two guys. And so, so guys of all shapes and sizes can do that. But this is a bona fide guy that they've been looking for for a really long time.

[B]

Landis, I gotta say, I mean I can just imagine that young Buckeye fan going to the bookstore and just looking at, should I get to Ethan Onyano book? Should I get the Integra Shabola book? Should I get the Kaden McDonald book? No offense to those guys, but Landis, you have some room to maneuver here.

[D]

Yeah, I'm going way off the board. I got nervous when you guys said I'm going off the board and then picked players. Everybody knows Joey Velasquez, oh, two time, two time national champ on both sides of the rivalry. It'll never happen again. He's an astronaut. He's. He's the first man on the moon. I, I actually know nothing about his personal story. I've never talked to him. But the fact that he's on both sides of the rivalry winning national championships at a time where the rivalry is probably at its most intense since like the ten year war.

[B]

Right?

[D]

Like the vitriol and the rivalry is insane and like social media only amplifies it.

[C]

It.

[D]

And he called himself, he called himself. He was unfortunately like put into the middle of it with like Michigan fans accusing him of things that he didn't do relative to like the Connor Stallions investigation. So like there's, there's a lot to dig into there if you ever would ever want to talk about it. Like there's, I think you could like frame a modern Ohio State Michigan rivalry book around Joey Velasquez. So that's who I would pick.

[C]

Well, you guys can have at it.

[B]

Sports journalists of Ohio. The Jeremiah Smith book is there for the taken because none of us said it. Julian sand book. And at least Marcus like mentioned the Caleb Downs book. But like there's a, there's a lot. The Orville Reese book. Anyone want to write an Orville Reese book? Like there's a lot of room.

[D]

Books ever about the most famous people.

[B]

That's well said. I mean that is like, like no, right. I mean like that's the, that's the thing is like as, as Rabinowitz knows and like we all know other guys who have written books. It's like you, you go to the, to the backups. The backups have the stories, right. I mean they tell you what's what. The guys who were in the room. Yeah. So it's like, well, I was there, like this guy was yelling at this guy and I was just sitting there taking it all in. Like that's the guy you talk to. So. Okay, so now let's actually talk about books. And we will start with Bill Rabinowitz. Bill Rabinowitz, tell us again, Buckeye Brotherhood, when is it available to the folks out there?

[C]

Tomorrow, Tuesday, Tuesday, October 21st is officially available. What else do you want to know about it?

[B]

I want to know what's it about and what was it like writing it? What was your process? Did you like it? Did you hate yourself? How did you do all the interviews? Just like give people a little behind the scenes look on what it's like to write a book about an Ohio State season.

[C]

Well, I've done this twice before. I wrote about the 2012 undefeated season, Buckeye Rebirth and the 2014 one, the Chase all and you know, Ghost wrote or co wrote the card out thing. All of them were accidental. I didn't intend to do any of them. I never like really aspired to be an author. But I remember 2012. Remy said somebody should write a book with this team. And I kind of to want okay. And it was like if I did that, I have to do 2014.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then kind of the same deal with this one. I mean it was such a great story. And I only have four months because this book has to come out for the holiday season. So I, I, you know, because I've done that before, I know what I'm putting myself through and it's hell. I mean, it really is hell because I really didn't take a lot of time off from my day job. I think three weeks. Which meant I was working just 1618 hour days every day. My one day off from January 27th till May 27th was my son's wedding. I said, I'm not working that today. I'm not working that day. Every other day it was just, you know, no golf, no, no, I'm gonna play guitar a little bit and you know, whatever. But that it was Just nose to the grindstone for that long. You know, the first interview I did was with Nina Day, and we sat for two hours over at a coffee shop in Powell. And after that interview, I knew that this was. Had a chance to be pretty good because she really was very revealing about her relationship with Ryan and his background because they grew up together in Manchester, New Hampshire. And then it just built from there. I got Ryan. Yes. I mean, I don't know how many times. It was, you know, a few times in his office, and then it would be like 15 minutes here, 15 minutes there when he was driving somewhere. And then I talked to Jim Knowles for three hours while he was driving in a snowstorm from Columbus to State College. I talked to these guys. Jack, sorry, was two hours plus. Will Howard, two hours plus. I mean, I talked to everybody. There were just two players, I don't want to name them, who just blew me off. That's it. Just a couple others declined politely and that was fine. But I talked to almost every significant player on the team, every coach except for one. And again, he just, you know, one of those deals. I think my emails or text got lost in the shuffle. But I really try to tell the story of how and why they won. Everyone knows what happened happen, right? For example, I have an entire chapter on the Jack Sawyer play, the scoop and score. I talked. I mean, obviously him, Larry Johnson, what was the move? The side scissors movie told me all this stuff. Ross Bjork, what were you doing? And he said that he put his hands in his head and heard the roar of the crowd and knew that it was good. But then the roar got louder and he couldn't figure out why it was getting louder and loud and reaching this crescendo until he finally opened his eyes and looks on the scoreboard and sees Jackson going in the end zone. What happened? What happened? You know, So I. This whole one chapter is just about the play and everyone's reaction to the play, what they were doing to the play. I mean, that's just kind of a fun chapter. But there are other ones about what the days endured after Michigan, which I'd written about in the Dispatch, but not to that degree, of course. Yeah, they were. I mean, again, I don't want to give too much away, but let's just say that they were ready to depart. They were. I don't. I'm pretty sure that they were not going to fire Ryan Day, but I think the days were done. I mean, I think they were like, this is just not worth it. The Kids were getting harassed at school. You know, they're mental health advocates, and here they are. Their mental health is being jeopardized. And so, yeah, you know, to me, these books are not so much about what did they do on third and eight against so and so it's who are these people? What drove them? What did they overcome? I mentioned the Tegra Shibola thing earlier. Austin Saravel was really good. I mean, Jaden Fielding, you know, missed two field goals against Michigan. He gets basically accosted at his. At his apartment. He needed a police escort to go to class on campus the next week. I mean, those are the stories that are just. I kind of knew that I was on the right path when I could hear about reading a chapter and I could hear her laughing and I could hear. Hear her crying. I thought, okay, you know, but I think the process. I don't know what other authors are, you know, how they feel. In fact, I'm going to do a podcast with Jeff Perlman later today. I want to talk about this, but I think. I think that at least for me, I think the whole time, this sucks. This sucks. This. I'm terrible. This sucks.

[F]

It's awful.

[C]

I. I don't. I would regret doing this. And if you're lucky, because you see the holes, you see what you don't have. You see, okay, it's like 5, 000 pieces jigsaw puzzle. And you've got to create the pieces, then you gotta figure out where they fit. And again, having four months to do it is not ideal. And so I just, you know, January, February, March, April, thinking, oh, God, this sucks. This sucks. And then if you're lucky, by the end, you feel like it doesn't suck. And then maybe you have a little bit of time to reflect and it's not just so immediate. You think, okay, it's pretty good.

[E]

And.

[C]

And I will say now I think it's the best of the books I've done just because the story is just, Just such a great story and nobody really told the Ryan Day story. Yeah, this book goes into.

[B]

I hope you rip the ad. Ross has got to be watching that play. He's not. He's not paid to be here and cover his eyes at the biggest moment of the season. Man, hope you ripped him. Say it to his face.

[C]

I did. I think I laughed when he told me that. I think that was my. Really, you didn't see it? You know, one of those deals. Nina didn't really see that. She buried. Nina buried her. Her head into the. She was with a friend and she. She knew it was good. She saw this, you know, scoop. I don't know if she saw the score, but it was a similar reaction.

[B]

Yeah, but she's not getting paid by Ohio State. She can bury her face however she wants. Marcus, you are a very interesting person. And being intrigued by the history of Ohio State is. Do you have anything in your head like we, you know, besides Rabinowitz, you know, selling books for free on this show? Like, I'm interested in, like, what people think they might want to write someday. Do you have something like that? Marcus?

[E]

I've had a proposal for now, it's like 10 or 12 years, but I want to do something called. I've kind of learned in interviewing people for Buckeye Sports Bulletin. A lot of times I would do a. And I've got a dog here. I would do a, like, retrospectives on some of the teams, like when it was the 1968 team's 50th anniversary or something like that. 61. So I've talked to some of the people from those and I kind of realized that there's sort of an interesting schematic wrinkle to, like, all of their national championship teams. So my idea would be the winning strategies of Ohio State football. Because if. And you could go back a lot as far as you want. I mean, even 1930s, the first time that they sort of dominated Michigan for a while, you had Francis Schmidt with installing his sort of version of the spread offense kind of, and they blew that. Blew them out and shut them out four years in a row. And that eventually fizzled out. But, you know, that leads to a lot of modern offenses from Sid Gilman and things like that, too. Then he's replaced by Paul Brown, who is the complete opposite of him in every way, but he's also the father of modern football in a lot of ways. And then Paul Brown, he was still running some wing tee. I mean, he wasn't running the west coast offense or anything like that at Ohio State, but he was still running some single wing and mixing it with the tea. And then Woody comes along and he's all tea he gets rid of. Because the first team to win the rose Bowl. So 1949 team, they're still running both the wing tee and some. Some tee offense. But Woody says, nope, we're. We're doing. I'm a team man. That's what I'm running. I don't care. I got the Heisman Trophy winner is back here, and he's just going to become a secondary player. Now this is what we're going to do and you know he has his success with that but he's got to evolve. And in 68 now this is a well known story but he brings in George Champ and, and he. They install the eye formation and and they're also running like no huddle that he picked up from Upper Arlington High School. And they led the country I believe in in like plays per game in 68 and 69. They're running full throttle the whole season and then it all blows up at Michigan and he shuts it down after that and he doesn't, you know, he kind of gives up on that. The seventies there's some innovations where he's running more, some triple option and things like that. And the tailback really becomes a guy, you know, with Archie Griffin and things like that. And then you even can forward, you know, I mean Trestle had a few different kind of schematic nuggets. You've got Dantonio running that defense that became sort of evolved into one of the defenses a lot of teams would run over the years they were Trestle would always have the Michigan wrinkle where they would pull out some play they hadn't run all year and it would work against Michigan. And then I had this idea before Urban, but then obviously 2012 and in 2014 you've got the Urban Meyer offense and how that kind of changes things. And I'm sure there's plenty of it's kind of the same thing, Kelly and them coming in. So that's been my idea, but I've never gotten around to making a hard pitch for it.

[A]

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[G]

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[B]

Landis, you like that idea, don't you?

[D]

I'll read a ball book. Yeah, I like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

There was a book called Blood, Sweat and chalk about 15 years ago now. A guy from Sports Illustrated wrote it, but I can't remember off the top of my head who it was, but he went through like a lot of the different offensive innovations with the NFL and it'd be kind of that kind of a thing. There was a lot of short chapters in that book and I think it'd be something maybe similar to that. It would have been better if I did this before Earl Bruce died because I had him on the phone once and he was talking about how also there's funky years with the offense. Like in 1952, randomly they had, they threw for 1500 yards, which I didn't even believe was real. I just thought they made that up in the record books. And I had Earl talking about that for like a minute and then he had to go. And I never got like the further explanation for how that happened. And so there's a lot of little quirky things like that as well.

[B]

Love it. Love it. Please write it. Go write it. Go write it. Go write it.

[E]

Go. Hopefully I'll have some more. Maybe I'll have. I didn't. I think I could do it with a full time job. It'd be hard to balance it. But now if I can carve out all my workflows, I might have a better shot at doing something on it.

[B]

I like it. All right, Landis, what do you got for us?

[D]

I did have a joke about writing a book about Tate Martel going 10 for 10, but I, I would, I wouldn't actually Write a book about that? No, I don't know that I have like a specific moment in time with Ohio State that I would want to. Want to write about. But. And I don't even know if people do these anymore. But just like the, you know, the, the book where you're just like living in it for a year, right? And you don't know what's going to happen. Like the, the like what John Feinstein did, what Buzz did with Friday Night Lights. Like I was actually approached a couple years ago to do that with Ohio state for the 2022 season. Just like stop covering them in bed with them. Write a book about whatever happens that year. But I couldn't do it because our son was going to be born that January and it's like I can go through the whole year and then miss the most important part and then not be able to write it. So, so it never, it never happened. But that, that is something that I very much remain interested in if I would ever get the opportunity, opportunity to do it with Ohio State or really with anybody else. I think what, like what Bill had to do with this book and what a lot of people who write sports books nowadays have to do, which is like kind of go back to it after the fact and line up all these interviews and like get people to open up is really difficult. So like to execute it is, is super impressive. And I, I actually have read Bill's book. It's very good. I would recommend anybody go, go out and, and get it. There's some really interesting stuff in there, including which I don't think I've seen anywhere else. Ryan Day, like kind of talking about Connor Stallions. Like I, it's, it's in the book and talked about it on the record anywhere that I can recall. So that's in there too. But yeah, I think any, any, any like embed situation would be a book that I'd be interested in writing if I pull it off.

[B]

Yeah, that's good. I always wanted to do a thing and then Landis and I did as a five part podcast. So like I don't know that I would have another idea, but I always was intrigued by the idea that 2006, Ohio State, Michigan, the Big Ten is at the, the top of the college football mountain with that one, two game. And then Ohio State goes, gets blown out by Florida and the SEC takes over for 20 years. And then like the, like the beginning of the Big Ten coming back was urban coming to Ohio State and now here we are and I think we're in a different era of college football. But I was always intrigued by like that moment. If you would have said, like, Ohio State vs. Michigan 1 vs. 2, should they be a rematch in the national title game? And Nick Saban and Urban Meyer are just lurking in the south to like, pull the rug out from everybody. But then Landis and I did the 25 year winter and Landis, like, that was the first episode, so it scratched the itch. And also we didn't have to write like 100,000 words and interview 80 people for it. We just kind of.

[D]

We did write like 80,000 words.

[B]

Fair. Fair. We did write it. But, you know, but, but yeah. So I, yeah. So who knows? I don't have the discipline. But the thing is verb. When you write a book, you do become a millionaire. So that's the best part of writing books.

[C]

Oh, my God. I would just say the book publishing business. I, my timing just sucked. I think the early days of like getting really big advances or whatever was before I did buckeye rebirth in 2013. I wrote that because the Great Recession happened in 2007 and 8 and it really gutted the publishing industry. There's almost no market for national sports books unless you just have a, you know, the LeBron James story or something like that. Even Ohio State with its fan base was not considered by, by New York publishers to be a national book. So no, you, I, I always got a joke and it's probably not a joke. I've been better off working at fast food place for the money that I'm going to get. I mean, it's, you know, I'm not, I'm doing this for free. But it's, if you're going to do something for money, don't, don't write a book.

[B]

And the other thing is, if you work at a fast food place, you can slip a chicken nugget in your pocket every now and then. Get a little bit on the side, you know, I'm talking about. So sorry that you wrote a book instead. Bill Rabinowitz, Go read your book. Go read his book, everybody. You'll find it wherever on Amazon and bookstores. Buckeye Brotherhood. But where else can the folks find to Bill Rabinowitz?

[C]

Yeah, I'm doing numerous book signings. The first one is at gramercy books on November 10th. And I've got one to book loft a week later. I think it's the 18th. I've got one in Dayton, the 20th, two or three Barnes and Nobles ones in November, one in December. So yeah, I'll I'll be out and about pushing the book and, and pushing the substack too because you know, that's, that's now my new job. So yes, I gotta buy out and yes, I'm still getting paid by the dispatch for a while, but not forever. And so, you know, I'm sure I can speak for, for you, for Doug and Bill to say, you know, we, we need the money.

[B]

Right? I mean, no, no, you can't, no, you can't speak for us because Landis and I didn't write a book and we didn't get a buyout. So no, don't speak for us. Yeah, don't cry poor rolling around in your piles of money telling fast food stories. It's like you're fine, Landis and I need money more. But good luck to you. Bill, thanks for joining us here. Great job on the book. And go find him on substack. Marcus, what do you got popping here for the folks?

[E]

Yeah, I maybe took on a lot trying to write for a few different sites. So I'm, I'm doing some Ohio State stuff and then some high school football things for Press Pros Magazine, which is an ascendant site started kind of in west central Ohio. Cover a lot of the Midwest Athletic Conference, which is Marion Local and Coldwater and some of those teams. But they found we also cover at the Miami Valley League which is like Troy Pickwa Tippecanoe and they've expanded to Central Ohio. Have a writer in Northeast Ohio now. They found actually a lot of people throughout the state are interested in Marion local on their 72 game winning streak and things that cover Ohio State baseball as well and football. Got a UD helmet boy who's a Hall of Fame baseball writer covers the UD Flyers. So sort of an all encompassing site that's you want to check out for all of those things. I'm contributing some to Buckeye Sports Bulletin too. And, and I just thought it would be fun. I've, I've got a site, cusswords sports.com and the main thing that I'm doing with that is on Fridays I'm doing a kind of this week in Ohio State football that is just sort of meant to be a roundup of everything that happened during the week during football season that'll be mostly original things but I'm planning on especially the rest of the year. There's a lot of coverage that, you know, it's a little more diverse in terms of people doing unique stories. So I think that's going to be, I want it to be an all encompassing thing with the best I read during the week and I'm doing some updates off of that just depending on time. Like I've done kind of the most interesting thing I heard out of any press conference basically sort of supposed to be a quick truly this is just a nugget that I thought was cool and why not recapping the whole press conference. Obviously you can read that anywhere you want and my site is. Is free at least for now because it's kind of a side hustle but kind of not sort of depends on how some of the other gigs go and what I'm able to do. But obviously I would welcome your subscribing and I also, I don't think I'm trying to. I'm not trying to add outdo Bill or anybody else from that standpoint. I think obviously I've learned in the different places I've written that there's an unending supply of an unending hunger for Ohio State content. So I'm just trying to add my own and my own perspective. And so we're starting out with that being just sort of something else that you can read along with all the other stuff that you're reading and maybe I'll come up with plan of a historical post of the week or something like that. It's all I'm putting the plane together in the air at this point, especially with it being football season and so many things going on and still covering a game on Friday nights and the games that I can, you know, all the home games and I'm hoping to be able to travel here soon. I've got my Michigan credential already and hoping to do some more road trips here as we go. But you know, just kind of, you know, still may have to make a living. So places that'll pay me to write, I'm still doing that for them too. And we'll see kind of how it grows from that standpoint. I've also been up uploading some things to YouTube and I've got a channel on there, a playlist you can look at for it's Chalk Talk. So if we ever get whenever Ryan Day or somebody goes into a little just a nugget about why they call a play or what they think about using a fullback or why they're using 12 personnel, I like to clip that two or three minutes, put that up there and kind of put that out there for, for the junkie, the football junkies like, like Bill and I and, and the people on, on Twitter. And I'm hoping that can be a little thing maybe that people can. Can use as a reference. And I'll usually write a post off of that as well.

[B]

Nice. Landis, are we writing this week or what do you know?

[D]

Yeah, we'll probably write something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got some stuff up already this week. I actually, I wrote something on Monday telling Ohio State fans and not let anybody tell you that Julian Saying hasn't played anybody compared to the other Heisman candidate quarterbacks because he's played on average, stronger defenses than all of them. So you can go read that.

[B]

Yeah, cram that Ty Simpson. So you can find us@billanddugo issue.substack.com and here on this YouTube channel. Ari Wasserman will join us for a show later this week. So make sure you check back and find us there. For now, thanks so much to Bill Rabinowitz. Thanks to Marcus Hartman. On behalf of Bill Landis, I'm Doug Lee Maurice. Thanks to you guys for being here. And that was around the shoe on the Bill and Doug show show.