College Football Playoff lunacy from Georgia-Ole Miss, and ruthlessness from Indiana & Oregon

Summary

The Bill and Doug Show: College Football Playoff Lunacy and Ruthlessness from Indiana & Oregon

Podcast: The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Date: January 2, 2026
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises & Bill Landis

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Episode Overview

This episode, recorded from a Dallas airport hotel, unpacks a wild College Football Playoff weekend featuring the Georgia–Ole Miss "lunacy" in the Sugar Bowl, Indiana’s ruthless dominance over Alabama, Oregon’s steady grind over Texas Tech, and Miami’s win over Ohio State. Doug and Bill dissect what these games say about the national landscape, especially the contrasting styles of play, the end of SEC mystique, the state of Ohio State’s offense, the roots of Indiana’s ascendance, and shifting program auras. The hosts dive deep into tactics, culture, and what the Big Ten’s superiority means in 2026, all with their trademark blend of insight, humor, and candor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sugar Bowl Madness: Georgia–Ole Miss

• Opening Vibes ([00:00–02:55])

  • Doug and Bill describe watching a game that was “almost unrecognizable from the Ohio State games this year.”
  • The lack of defense didn’t feel like incompetence: “This was not like, incompetent. These were guys making plays. This was Gunner Stockton, Trinidad Chambliss…” (Doug, [01:23]).

• Point about “Section” (Fun, Wild Football)

  • Wild laterals, onside kicks, and general chaos made it feel like “backyard ball” ([01:35–02:55]).
  • Bill: “Georgia refuses to go home... This was playmaking by Trinidad Chambliss.”

• Coaching Contrasts

  • Ole Miss wins without Lane Kiffin, highlighting the randomness and opportunity in modern CFB; Indiana soars on “Kurt Signetti, the most ruthless coaching maniac monster since Nick Saban.” (Doug, [03:28])
  • Lane Kiffin’s departure is lampooned: “Turns out Lane Kiffin was worth nothing to Ole Miss. They didn’t need him at all” (Doug, [03:16]).

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2. Era of Player Movement and NIL

• The modern landscape (NIL, transfers) is creating new stars and opportunities.
  • Trinidad Chambliss’s journey from Division II national champ at Ferris State to FBS star is held up as a feel-good story emblematic of the times ([03:59–04:43]).
  • Bill: “Is everything perfect with player movement? No... But it does get you stories like this.”

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3. Contrast: High-Chaos Football vs. "Professionalized" Ohio State

• Wild Sugar Bowl makes Big Ten football look staid, even boring.

  • Bill: “You know what it looked like? College football, man. That’s what it’s supposed to be. I’m tired of the NFLization of college football” ([07:12]).
  • Doug: “The history of lunacy isn’t there with Ohio State... much of what Ohio State was—professional and composed and mature. And this game was none of that.” ([05:19])

• Ohio State’s Strategic Identity

  • Ohio State is “slow and precise,” something that worked last year but feels limiting now.
  • "Is it a better way to win, or just more fun to play wild?" ([07:45])
  • “They played Georgia in the Beach Bowl, same thing. And it’s just like this, this transformation like the last two, three years of Ohio State has sapped that out of every single Ohio State game” (Bill, [08:08]).

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4. Playoff Format & the "Buy" Debate

• Three of the four bye teams (Ohio State, Georgia, Texas Tech) lost. Discussion that the bye hurts teams’ rhythm and that the format may soon change.
  • “Shouldn’t we all be assuming we’re going to 16 [teams]?... it feels like the buy is not something that the top four seeds want” (Doug, [08:46]).
  • Even “the football monster, Kurt Signetti,” spent the week complaining about bowl distractions ([10:06]).
  • “The teams with byes are one in seven, and the guy who won is that guy” (Doug, [11:34]).

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5. Indiana’s Secret Sauce: Ruthlessness + Explosiveness

• Kurt Signetti is compared to Saban (“Saban Jr.”), but Indiana is more explosive and less buttoned-up than this year’s Ohio State.
  • Bill: “Indiana is efficient, but they’re also explosive. Ohio State is only one of those things” ([12:05]).
  • “Sometimes I watch Ohio State, they just look a little… little robotic at times. I don’t know that I feel that about Indiana’s offense” ([20:44]).

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6. Ohio State: Style, Risk, and Stagnation

• Rigid, risk-averse, “robotic” offense and quarterbacking under Ryan Day—contrasted with the improvisational lunacy of playoff winners.

  • “There’s no improvisation... There’s no playmaking. There’s no improvisation in Ohio State’s offense” (Bill, [14:22]).
  • “There’s something missing: a recklessness, a little bit, because… more plays you have, less mistakes matter. Fast and loose vs. slow and precise—and it’s clear where Ohio State is” (Doug, [19:26–20:12]).
  • “They are very much in the slow and precise category” (Bill, [20:12]).

• Ryan Day’s Dilemma

  • Receivers want precision, QBs want freedom; Day clings to routine and NFL mindsets ([17:50–18:17]).
  • Bill: “They need to get out of that mode… Loosen up a little bit. There’s something between the way they play now and that that could open things up” ([27:10–28:00]).

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7. Ohio State’s Defense: The Havoc Problem

• Lacked impact plays—tackles for loss, turnovers, third down stops—in the playoff, compared to peers.

  • Doug: “Their havoc rate… not nearly as high as when we did the defensive draft, the best defenses in this playoff. They were way below the other teams” ([32:22–37:38]).
  • “They couldn’t get a third down stop when it mattered” (Doug, [39:53]).

• Bend-but-don’t-break only goes so far: need some risk & creativity, especially when behind.

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8. Big Ten vs. SEC: Shifting the Power Structure

• Big Ten not just superior at the top, but deeper in 2026; SEC dominance, mystique, and “aura” is fading.
  • Doug: “Illini beat Tennessee… I think the fact that the last SEC team standing is a coachless team is some indication of the league. I think it’s an indictment of the league” ([53:16–54:00]).
  • Even ESPN is calling Alabama’s Rose Bowl loss an “embarrassment”—a sign the SEC aura is dead ([55:30–56:43]).
  • Bill: “The Alabama mystique and the Michigan Man were killed in the same year. What a year” ([82:01]).

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9. Indiana’s Rise: Is It Clemson 2.0?

• Can Indiana’s run last? The hosts discuss the possibility of a Clemson-like golden age, but caution that roster turnover, especially former JMU (James Madison U) transfers, and coordinator retention could determine their fate ([62:05–68:11]).
  • Doug: “Is Indiana the new Clemson? That would be my prediction… but it probably takes one more year to really lock that in” (Doug, [77:57]).

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10. Program Power Rankings & the Idea of 'Aura'

• What defines a “program” vs. just a team? Indiana still graded as perhaps not quite a blue-blood program—yet.
  • Bill: “I think I would say Indiana is the best team in the country. I don’t know that they’ve earned the program distinction just yet. So I would probably still say, like, Ohio State, Oregon, Georgia” ([74:27–75:09]).
  • The Alabama “aura”—its mythic status—died in the Rose Bowl ([80:20–83:22]).

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Notable Quotes

• “College football is lunacy. I’m tired of the NFL location of my college football.”
  — Bill Landis ([07:12])

• “Turned out Lane Kiffin was worth nothing to Ole Miss. They didn’t need him at all. They’re better without him.”
  — Doug Lesmerises ([03:16])

• “Kurt Signetti is the football monster of the modern era… he worked for Nick Saban and now he is Nick Saban. In this era, he has no time for shenanigans, and he’s the one who solved it.”
  — Doug Lesmerises ([10:32–11:34])

• “There’s no improvisation in Ohio State’s offense… They need to find a way to embrace a little more of the chaos that’s inherent in the game.”
  — Bill Landis ([14:22–15:41])

• “The more plays you have, the less mistakes matter… Fast and loose. No one says, ‘play it slow and loose.’”
  — Doug Lesmerises ([19:31])

• “You can lose it. You can lose it [aura]. That is a good lesson.”
  — Doug Lesmerises ([83:43])

• “The Alabama mystique and the Michigan Man were killed in the same year. What a year.”
  — Bill Landis ([82:01])

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Key Timestamps

• [00:00–02:55] — Game-open chaos, Sugar Bowl wrap-up, “section” meaning fun, wild football
• [03:16] — Ole Miss wins without Lane Kiffin; Indiana’s rise fueled by coaching “ruthlessness”
• [07:12] — NFL-ization vs. “lunacy” in college football
• [08:46–11:34] — Playoff format critique, bye week disadvantage
• [14:22–15:41] — Ohio State’s offensive rigidity and absence of improvisation
• [17:50–18:17] — College versus NFL mindset at Ohio State
• [19:31] — Fast and loose vs. slow and precise: where Ohio State lands
• [27:10–28:00] — “Loosen up” | Bill’s advice for Ryan Day
• [32:22–37:38] — Defensive havoc rates; OSU compared to peers
• [39:53] — OSU’s missed 3rd down stops vs. Miami; lack of defensive impact plays
• [53:16–54:00] — Big Ten’s depth; SEC “indictment” as Coachless Ole Miss advances
• [55:30–56:43] — ESPN: Alabama’s loss to Indiana “embarrassing, humiliating”—end of an aura
• [62:05–68:11] — Indiana’s sustainability: Clemson 2.0 or fleeting run?
• [80:20–83:22] — Death of Alabama’s aura; importance of program “aura” vs. recruiting base

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Memorable Moments

• The chat points out their microphones aren’t working; Doug and Bill restart the show mid-episode ([21:10–21:47]).
• Banter about Alabama’s post-Saban decline, suggesting they should only play for the Alabama state championship as “Alabama Madison” ([61:20]).
• Playful speculation on Indiana’s new blueblood status, and whether coordinator continuity matters ([66:24–68:11]).

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Final Thoughts

The episode is a celebration of college football’s “lunacy”—the chaos, risk, and playmaking that set it apart from the tightly managed NFL style. The playoff chaos demonstrates program trajectories, the dangers of over-professionalization (especially for Ohio State), and the shattering of traditional power dynamics. Indiana’s rise, the Big Ten’s ascent, and the SEC’s waning mystique dominate the show's big-picture takeaways.

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For full coverage, subscribe to Bill and Doug’s Substack and follow the podcast feed for more national CFB and Ohio State analysis.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome back to the Bill and Dunk show, live from an airport hotel in Dallas, Texas, where we have just watched absolute lunacy. Bill Landis. As we have our final four teams in the College Football Playoff. We'll have an Oregon. Hey, my voice is deep. We'll have an Oregon Indiana semifinal. We'll have a Miami Ole Miss semifinal. And what just happened in the Sugar bowl was almost unrecognizable from the Ohio State games that we have watched this year. And I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing.

[B]

It's called bowl week. Voice is what you have when you hang out for too long and then by the end of it, you're sick. I've got a little bit of that going on as well. Can I ask you a clarifying question?

[A]

Please do.

[B]

Was this good or was this section? Yeah, because I thought it was good.

[A]

I think it was. I think it was maybe the highest level of section, but there was. It was entertaining. There was not a lot of great defense, which was not a surprise. But it's interesting because I think the defensive identities, the physicality of the first three, three winners is what defined them. And then this looked like a backyard game, but it was a heck of a lot of fun. But I think there was, like, real playmaking there. I'm getting there, Josh. I like. I don't. I don't. This was not. This was not, like, incompetent. These were guys making plays. This was Gunner, Stockton, and what's happening. What's happening now.

[B]

They just don't want the game to end.

[A]

They just. Georgia refuses to go home. This was playmaking by Trinidad Chambliss. Was this playmaking by Gunner Stockton? Right. These. These were guys, like, making things happen. This was not. When you have section as you have defensive breakdowns and silly things like giving away things, giving away opportunities, creating situations where teams wind up winning without really doing anything. But this was not that. This was Ole Miss taking it. This was Georgia fighting back.

[B]

What's happening right now might be section as Georgia runs a play with confetti.

[A]

On it, but why does Georgia.

[B]

Because they ran an onside kick, and I guess, like, there was no time they could have run off the clock. So they get one second to do some shenanigans while there's confetti on the field. And they've now twice moved the stage off the field. And I don't want Georgia to win, but I kind of want them to score right now. So let's see what happens. They're tossing it around. Okay, this is lateral number nine.

[A]

We're going to get sued by ESPN for doing play by play here. Please tackle number 11. Step out of bounds. Go out of bounds.

[B]

So many laterals to move the ball like eight yards. There's 14 on the field. The one guy on George is just standing around.

[A]

Okay, now it's section now it's section. You've ruined it. You've ruined sec. Okay, Taking away all the credit that we were giving you for great football here.

[B]

I think after all of that, it actually ended up as a negative play.

[A]

Okay, so we have Ole Miss and Miami in a semifinal. We have Indiana and Oregon in a semifinal. It's remarkable to me the difference in how these things evolve, that you have a situation. Kurt Signetti is worth a billion dollars to Indiana football. And, and the coaching has created everything that's happening in Indiana. And it turns out that Lane Kiffin was worth nothing to Ole Miss. They didn't need him at all. They're better without him. So the last team standing, the highest, the.

[B]

The.

[A]

The SEC team that will advance farthest in the college football playoffs is doing it coachless. And the, and the Big Ten team that is the highest rated team that is left for the Big Ten is. Is doing so only because they discovered the most ruthless coaching maniac monster that we have seen since Nick Saban. And it is, I think, an encapsulation of the Big Ten in the SEC this year.

[B]

How do you think LSU fans feel that they paid, whatever it was, $12 million for a guy who doesn't mean anything?

[A]

Yeah, I don't know what to think. I mean, like, this is. I do think it is. I don't want to call it. You know, I think there's very many reasons to celebrate what Ole Miss is accomplishing. Trinidad Shambliss is the best of what college football offers, right, for a Division 2 kid from Ferris State. Like in this era, what this era is in this era with player movement and nil and, you know, guys moving around so much that you're. You are creating opportunities, right? And I think if you're looking like you're trying to find the positive here, you're creating something for a program like Ole Miss. Had something like this happen before. And you're creating something for a player like Trinidad Chambliss that wouldn't have had opportunities like this, this before. And this is the best of what this is now, right? This version of the sport.

[B]

I mean, he's got. I don't know. Indiana and Oregon are very Good. Whoever comes out of that game is probably the national champion. Be pretty freaking cool. Trinidad Chambliss is a Division 2 national champion and an FBS national champion. And I think it's, you know, is everything perfect with player movement and the way things go and the structure of it? No, of course not. But it does get those stories like this and that this is, this is pretty cool. That got balled out, man. I, I have not spent a ton of time watching Trinidad Chandlers this year because why would I. I cover ysd. But this is a kind of the first time I really watched Start to Finish and Play. And he's, he's pretty entertaining.

[A]

Yeah. But the vibes of this game and, and we're going to couch a lot of what happened today to compare contrast to what happened in the Miami Ohio State game on Wednesday night. Was this game not almost unrecognizable compared to often the like Ohio State this year much of what Ohio State was was professional and composed and mature. And this game was none of that.

[B]

And we were really nice ways to say boring.

[A]

Well, it's one of those things. But like it's a strategy. And I don't think boring on purpose. I don't think like Larval Reese as a player is not boring. Caleb Downs as a player is not boring. Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate as players are not boring. It's a choice that Ohio State decided to go about its business in a particular way. And then you watch a game like this and you see Kirby Smart running a fake plant from his own 29 yard line. You see Kirby Smart going forward on fourth down. You see quarterbacks, two quarterbacks who are running around and turning their back to the line of scrimmage and escaping plays and throwing on the run. And that is not the style of play that most Ohio State quarterbacks in the Ryan Day era have played with. Right. That kind of thing. And we were in our, in our chat with our Substack subscribers and I kept saying this is, this is a game filled with lunatics. And as that's a compliment because doesn't it make you want your team. I want my team to be filled with lunatics now because this is avert. It's a way to succeed. But it's a heck of a lot of fun. It creates some like situations where you can make a gigantic mistake and then you can come back and make a gigantic play and make up for it. There's a lot of possessions. When Georgia was down, they moved the ball very quickly to get a Touchdown at the end of the game. People were contrasting that to the way that Ohio State was playing much more slowly in the second half when they were trying to come back against Miami. It's just a different. It's looked like a different sport.

[B]

You know what it looked like college football, man.

[A]

I know.

[B]

So college football is supposed to be. College football is lunacy. I'm tired of the NFL location of my college football where teams play slow and you score four touchdowns to win and you have three possessions in the second half. Like that is that is the NFL creeping down into college football. And there are some teams that operate at the top of the sport that are trying to play that way. Ohio State is probably the one that's trying to do it the most. It worked for him last year, it didn't work for him this year. But I would prefer than my college football looked like that Sugar bowl look.

[A]

So it's funner.

[B]

It's fun. Yes.

[A]

For a program like Ohio State, is it a better way to go about business? Is it. Is it a better way to win? Because it's two different things. Is it a better way to win or is it. Well, you know, maybe it's about equal the chances that you can win doing it, but this is a more fun way to do it. So why not do the more fun thing?

[B]

Well, because. But I would say like Ohio State early Ryan Day, like the. The 2019 loss to Clemson was a little looser. It was fun back and forth. When they beat Clemson in the Sugar bowl, high scoring, a little back and forth, little loose, a little crazy. And they played Georgia in the beach bowl, same thing. And it's just like this, this transformation like the last two, three years of Ohio State has kind of like sapped that out of every single Ohio State game we watch.

[A]

Yeah. The history of lunacy isn't there with Ohio State trestle to urban today. So this is one of those things. And this is. These are points that Ohio State fans in the chat are certainly bringing up. And Ryan Day has said, like, winning is fun. Kicking butt is fun. Right. And so that kind of thing.

[B]

So.

[A]

So here's the thing about this. We wind up in a situation and it's going to be a continued discussion. Three of the 14 with Buys lost, number two seed Ohio State lost, number three seed Georgia lost, and number four seed Texas Tech lost. That will be a continuing discussion. They earlier this year moved IT back till January 23, the deadline to make a discussion, a decision about the College Football playoff structure for 2026. I think I certainly don't have inside information on this. Should we not all be assuming that we're going to 16 both because you get your four extra games and also because it feels like the buy is not something that the top four seeds want?

[B]

Yeah, I would think so. It felt like even before we got this second batch of results on the buys and saw three of those teams lose. And now, now we also have favorites losing too with Ohio State and Georgia, that coaches kind of wanted that anyway. I think they want more access. One, because why wouldn't they? It's more job security. But two, I do, I do think you're going to find themselves sort of like anti that time off now even a couple people from Ohio State last night, we're talking about that. So, yeah, I would, I would guess that's where we're headed.

[A]

So the one guy in two years who avoided it is the football monster of the modern era.

[B]

But he was complaining about it too. Like, well, Kurt Signetti was complaining of not, not so much about the time off, but like the extra stuff that comes with these being also bowl games. He called his, I think he called his press conference conference disruptive. He was calling his players doing anything other than practicing football disrupted. Now, didn't show up for him on the field. But I think like, even he would say, like, yeah, this is probably not the right format for this.

[A]

No. But. Well, but I guess what I'm saying, like, but he, he's the only one, like the most ruthless, efficient football monster is the only the Saban, the new Saban, the Saban junior of this. We've, we spent a lot of the season comparing Ryan Day to Nick Saban. I mean, like Friday, I don't know if Brian Day might have anything called Nick Saban. Kirchner, he is Nick Saban. He worked for Nick Saban and now he is Nick Saban. In this era, he has no time for shenanigans, and he's the one who solved it. The team with buys are one in seven, and the guy who won is that guy. And I was waiting for Kurt Signetti to show up at the Sugar bowl tonight to fly in from California and yell at everybody to quit messing around. So it is, it is an interesting contrast. And then I think when you think about Ohio State, Ohio State has the talent. Ohio State has plays in the playbook. Right. Ohio State has Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate and Bo Jackson. And they could do things to accentuate their skill and playmaking and decide to play faster and decide to try to Win more in the 30s than leaning on a defense. They could make that decision. But I think Ohio State tried this year to be the Kurtz and it's. They weren't copying Kurt Signetti, but Kurt Signetti is now the person who's done it most effectively this season. They tried to play more like that. The efficiency monsters, the ruthlessness, they're like, we're gonna just like wear you down and be well coached.

[B]

I don't know. Indiana is efficient, but they're also explosive. Ohio State is only one of those things.

[A]

It's 13 to 10, Big 10 title game.

[B]

No, I know, like some games it's hard to be explosive when you play good teams. But I like on the season, they.

[A]

Can be explosive too. But they weren't, not in their loss.

[B]

Not in any of their games.

[A]

They were explosive against like Minnesota.

[B]

Their explosive play rate was like ridiculously low this year. They're not, they were not explosive like at all all year.

[A]

And Indiana's explosive play rate is higher.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, but you. But, but Curtsy Nettie doesn't want to play like this. We're pointing at the tv. Doesn't want to play an old Mission Georgia game, does he?

[B]

I, I don't, I don't know. Like what? I don't know what you're asking me. Like, what do you prefer that his defense. Way better than that.

[A]

I don't. Does he want to fake punts and go for it on fourth down and have quarterbacks who turn their backs to the line of scrimmage and run him out on to make plays like that? I mean, Ryan Day doesn't.

[B]

Yeah, I don't, I don't know what Kurt Signetti wants from his quarterback, but I, he likes to score a lot of points, so I don't think he'd be mad about that. No.

[A]

Okay, so, so what should Ohio State do? Should Ohio State try to learn anything from Kurt Signetti? Should Ohio State try to learn anything from this old Miss Georgia game? Should Ohio State just do what Ohio State does and has done?

[B]

Yeah, like all of the above. Kind of. Like, I do think they're, they are, they're limiting themselves with the style with which they choose to play. So they need to get out of that mode. Whether or not they need to take influence from a game like this, I don't know. It shouldn't take a game like this. You should be able to look at the box score of their own game yesterday. Realized they had three second half possessions when they were losing and they needed.

[A]

More than that did it tell you something? The way that Georgia played faster when they were down two scores. Was that something that. Because, so I. When Ryan Day explains it, I think Ryan Day explained, it's like, what's the point of going fast if you're not going to get first down? You're just going to give the ball up fast. Right? So we want to be. We want to make sure what the main thing Ohio State has to do when it's down is score touchdown. So we have to make sure we score a touchdown. So that's the first priority. If it can be a little bit faster, I guess that's okay. But we have to score. And so I think he's so focused on that efficiency, it winds up in a situation where they wind up with longer possessions. They do score two touchdowns to open the first half, but they shorten the game. And Kirby Smart just gets out there and says, go, go, go, go, go, go.

[B]

Yeah, I think there's trying to, like, search for the right words for it, I guess, but I think there is, like, an exactness that is almost required for Ohio State to be successful offensively because of the way that it chooses to play. I don't think there's a lot of, like, sort of like on the fly adjusting to what happens. You design the play, it works or it doesn't, and that's it. And, like, if you watch games like this, like, I called something, it didn't work. My quarterback's gonna scramble a little bit. Oh, that guy came open. I'll throw him the ball. Like, that does not happen in Ohio State's offense. It's like, we called the post for Jeremiah. He was double covered. We threw a check down. We called the post to Carnell Tate. He was double covered. We threw a check down. There's like, no playmaking. There's no. There's no improvisation in Ohio State's offense. Right. And there's no.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I. I don't know that that's always been the case for Ohio State, but I feel like that's been the case the last couple of years. It's like they call. They call a thing. They work on.

[A]

It was.

[B]

Ryan said, we were. We worked on this a thousand times in practice, and when they do that and they get the look they want and the play works, it's awesome. But that's not how football works. Right. So. And they. They need to find a way, I think, to embrace a little more like, the. The chaos that is inherent in the game and just like, kind of like have fun and let their players let it rip a little bit.

[A]

So I do think so. It's a combination of a lack of improvisation, but. And there also is risk aversion here, right?

[B]

I think so. And.

[A]

And like, this game was filled with risk taking. This Ole Miss Georgia game, when you fake a punt from your own 29, when you're going for it more on fourth down, when you are, I don't know if it's encouraging, I don't know if it's allowing. Right. But the way that Trinidad Shambliss and Gunner Stockton play and played in this game is that they play with the freedom that if there's a rusher in their face, they might check it down, but they might not and they are willing to turn their back to us. We started talking about it when. When Ohio State played BAKER Mayfield in 2017. Right. And like that kind of thing. That's why I think. That's why we started talking about Tate Martel, because we thought maybe this could be. This is a. Would will your quarterback turn his back to the line of scrimmage to try to escape something and make something happen? And there are quarter. We saw it in this game. We've seen quarterbacks succeed that way. I don't think an Ohio State quarterback has done that in a very long time, both by skill set and I think by the way that their head coach prefers them to play football.

[B]

The last time it happened was C.J. shot against Georgia.

[A]

And that's the hard thing about this because I think Ryan Day wants to. We talked. I say this a lot. Wants to establish a foundation with the way his quarterback plays. But then he also does like it when they break the tendency when they do make a play. But I think that it can be, especially for a young quarterback like Julian saying, it's like it's such a. Don't make mistakes, don't turn the ball over, do the right thing, make the right read, take the check down if it's there, don't put the ball in danger. And then you sort of have to grow into. Well, when can I sort of like decide to break out of that? And is it, you know, people are saying in here, well, Julian saying, could run around in high school, right? Like Julian. Could Julian saying, play like Trinidad Chambliss? No. I mean, not.

[B]

No, not exactly. He's like not that twitchy. He's not the. He's not the design like game run threat. I don't think he's. I don't think he's like shaking guys in the backfield like with as much frequency. But I think he can do it a little bit.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like I was watching some stuff earlier today and I came across again that played from the pen game where he shook the nine dentist up really good pass rusher. Yeah. Out of a sack and then scrambled and got seven yards. Now I thought like watching that play, he was moving much better at that point in the season than I think he has been the last couple of weeks. I don't know if he's got like an injury or what, but like I think there's a little bit more movement to a healthy Julian saying not to this extent, but something more to tap into at least.

[A]

Yeah. So I mean the question about like High State's not going to go get like a different quarterback. That's, you know, like they have Julian saying he was a heist and finalist and they have a five star behind him who at least is bigger. It doesn't mean that Tavian Sinclair is twitched up like Trinidad Chambliss and is going to run around like Baker Mayfield. But like it could be a different style of quarterback play. But is it something. And this is a very difficult thing, right. That there's so much about Ohio State with Ryan Day that I think they want to. It's the NFL ization of the sport. But I think at Ohio State you're also seeing the NFLization of the program of the team. When you bring in somebody like Matt Patricia. Right. When you sort of emphasize that kind of thing, I think when you want to take some of those. Ryan Day talked about routine, routine, routine, routine. That's a professional mindset. That's not a college mindset. Right. We want to do the same thing every day. That's like how. That's like nine to five. We go to work, we have a job. That's routine. College is a routine. College is like you stay up till 4 o' clock in the morning eating French toast. So I know when you're playing college football you probably can't do that. But like there is something. I don't want to overreact to four hours of absolute lunacy.

[B]

Well, we can't help but, but to put in the context of seeing me watch most often when you get to see stuff like that.

[A]

But is, is there something, is there a. We talk about ruthlessness a lot with Ryan Day. Is there a recklessness that's missing like a little bit of it because. And this is the other thing too. If you put the more plays you have, the more snaps you have, the More possessions you have, the more. Less mistakes matter. So then if you're playing faster, you can play a little looser. Fast and loose. No one says, hey, play it slow and loose. It's slow and tight or fast and loose. And I don't. I don't mean tight in a negative sense. Like tight, like nervous, like, oh, we can't do. But like precise.

[B]

Precise, yeah.

[A]

Slow and precise. Fast and loose. It is clear where our highest data is in that discussion.

[B]

They are. They are very much in the slow and precise category.

[A]

Is. Is that the best way to win or. Because we just watched one football game, is that no longer?

[B]

But.

[A]

But. So what category would you put Kurt Zagnetti in? Or would you say he's part of both?

[B]

Because I. I think he. Yeah, he probably. He probably straddled. Straddles both ideologies a little bit. The Indiana does play slower. There is a precision to the way that they operate. They are. They are efficient. But I also. I don't know.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I don't. Sometimes I like. I watch Ohio State primarily on offense. I think they just look a little. Little robotic at times. And I don't know that I feel that about Indiana's offense. I do think there's a little bit more looseness in there because. Because there's some stuff, too. It's like there's a lot of RPO in Indiana's offense, so there's like, there's. There's variants there, I think. Play to play that gets gets into it.

[A]

I think the cord fell out. It did. Oh, good producing by the. By the. By the chat. How about that? Good producing that. And this will now be better. The sound will now be better thanks to the producing by the chat. So thank you for that. Who said that? Lossless. 1, 2, 3, 4. Thank you for the heads up. I think that will sound a little bit better now. All right, go ahead.

[B]

Did he say, hey, your soundboard's not plugged in?

[A]

He said, hey, it sounds like it's not coming through the. Through the mics. Much better, says Nathan. See, look at that. All right, so we'll restart.

[B]

You guys listened anyway. Thank you.

[A]

All right, we're gonna. We're gonna restart the show. We're gonna race the first 21 minutes. And three, two, one. I can't believe that Trinidad Shambliss just did this. I wonder, do you think Ryan Day could have watched that game and had any of these own. These conversations in his own head?

[B]

I don't know, because I don't. Because Ryan Day is coming off of a national championship, so I don't know that he looks at what happened this season as an indication that he like, radically needs to change things or if they just got a little off based with like their execution on things because they, they played, they were more explosive last year, but they still played pretty slow. And I think some of the things we're saying about like the exactness and precision would apply to last year's offense and that got them to the national championship. So I, I, it feels like we're talking about a thing that maybe we think is maybe it's not, it's not broken broken, but in, in need of some fixing and tweaks. And I don't know that he views it quite that way.

[A]

Yeah. And, and I mean, it's one of the things that part of it is the skill sets you choose to focus on in your quarterbacks. Right. And he wants, and this is part of the difficult thing about this, you know, there wasn't the receiver talent in this Ole Miss Georgia game that Ohio State has. And the reason, one of the reasons beyond just Brian Hartline's personal relationships and recruiting ability and the way he runs that room. The other part of it, as we've talked about, it's not only Brian Hartline, but when people say, well, Ryan Day is a part of that too, that means the Ryan Day offense, that means the Ryan Day way of doing things. And I know this for like Ryan Day is saying, I need, we need to have a quarterback who can process and throw accurately so that these receivers can thrive and that's what keeps them coming here. And I don't know if receivers want to, five star receivers want to be recruited to a place where the quarterback's just going to run around like a maniac and then pull something out of nowhere and make a play. Right? Like, they want to run a route, be open and get the ball. So I mean, I think it's not like there's no, it's not like, man, they're just, they're slow and precise and that, that sucks. Like, there is a, there are absolute upsides to that. Right? It is professional receivers want to be NFL receivers.

[B]

I bet receiver I receivers want the ball as much as they can get it. And like at Ohio State right now you're getting it like between six and eight times because you're only running 60 plays. Like, I like this game. I don't know how many plays almost ended up running, but Trinidad Chambers was pretty efficient. I think if you said to any College receiver. Hey, do you want to play in an offense that's going to run 70 plays because you're going to get the ball thrown to you 17 times. I think they'd be okay with that even if the quarterback was a little loose.

[A]

Total plays, 73 for Ole Miss and 70 for Georgia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I do think they want to run routes and get the ball when they're open. I don't. They don't always want to be in a, in a scramble mode, just like. Yeah, fine.

[B]

No, I, I actually, I actually think. I disagree with you a little bit. You think they, they want to play in fun offenses?

[A]

Because I think you've, you've, you're, you're, you're out a little bit. On what? Ohio State. Have you been thinking this or.

[B]

There's a track record at Ohio State that, that is, that is like, long, that is enduring and will continue to attract top players. I do think if they continue to play the way that they're playing, that'll change. I'm not saying it'll change tomorrow.

[A]

In terms of receivers and quarterbacks specifically.

[B]

Yeah. Slow balance, limited plays. Like, it's not, it's not a particularly exciting offense to watch. Right. Right now. And I don't, like, I think eventually that catches up to you. Like again, like, next week. No. Till next season. Probably not. But.

[A]

When did you start thinking this?

[B]

The middle of this season.

[A]

Okay. Do you think Ryan Day.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Might be thinking at all, like. So. Because Ryan Day, after the game, we're going to talk a little bit about Oregon, Indiana, because he's talking after the game Friday night, he's saying, like, we have to evaluate everything. So, like, we have to evaluate what we do. Could. Or.

[B]

Ryan Day doesn't anticipate things. He reacts after they happen. So, like, does he. Is he worried that his offense might at some point become less attractive to the best players in the country? Probably not until it actually happens.

[A]

Not until they lose several recruitments in a row.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To. Yeah. I mean, Jeremiasmith still had a boatload of targets this year. He still was among the most targeted receivers in the country.

[B]

Yeah, he did. He had.

[A]

He did.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I.

[B]

A player of Jeremiah's talent should probably have more yards and touchdowns with those targets. I'm not saying. I'm not putting that on him. I think it's part of the offense because he catches whatever it was. 57 curl curl routes this year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's not his fault.

[A]

That's.

[B]

The plays are being called.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so what would, if, if he brought you in as a consultant, but, like, what would you advise him? What would you say? Because it's not going to look like this. It's not going to be.

[B]

Just loosen up a little bit.

[A]

Loosen up?

[B]

Yeah, just loosen up a little bit. And it's like, it's. It's interesting to me because he, he has at times described his own playing career. Like, playing for Chip Kelly is like, like at times, like feeling a little bit like a lab rat. Like they were just trying all this different stuff. They were seeing what stuck. He was doing things maybe sometimes he wasn't comfortable with, sometimes it works, sometimes it didn't. But whenever he talks about it, he smiles like, like. And I think, like, quarterback can be. It is the most difficult position in sports, I think, but it can also, I think, like, be the most fun if you were just out there, like letting, letting it rip a little bit. Like, you can't be reckless all the time. And if you are mistake prone, then, then obviously that's no, that's no good either. I'm not saying sort of like caution be damned entirely, but there's something between the way they play now and that, that I think they could get to, that could open things up.

[A]

And it's definitely related that the slower you play, the more risk averse you have to be. Because every mistake is magnified.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And I think that's what we've been talking about all year, that we think we see that a little bit in some of the times when maybe Julian saying doesn't take something that's there, but you think that could be. And it might, it might be what you see, it might be what. But it might be the environment that you're in and the attitude that you are surrounded with and the things that, whether it's spoken or unspoken, but you absorb it. And it's like, man, my coach is gonna rip me if I try to take this. And he's going to want to know, why did you do that? What did you see? Right, right. And so this would be. If you bring in somebody, you could make another offensive hire here who would come in from the outside and tell Ryan Day to relax a little bit. Like, I come from an offensive philosopher. We're doing this. And Ryan, you're too structured, man. You have such talent here, but you're not allowing for playmaking. Let me bring some of this in. And when Ryan Day says all the plays are good.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the, like, the play, the play, the play should have worked. But it didn't work. But the bottom line is it's not, it's not what should have, it's what what is. And there's not a lot of that. Is there something in schematically that would encourage improvisation or is it just attitude and that's just like what you allow guys to do? Or is that something you can bake into an offensive game plan?

[B]

I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know. Maybe there's something you probably need to start looking for in a quarterback recruiting. And that's like. But as we mentioned earlier, like watch Julian Sane in high school. There's plenty of that. The kid they just brought in, Luke Fahey, you know, he's a lower rated guy, but there's a lot of that in, in his game too. Davy and Sinclair like was kind of like a one man offensive times, the way that he played and had to do a lot of crazy stuff. So like, it's not like they're bringing in quarterbacks who are incapable or unwilling to do these kinds of things. I just think like they come to Ohio State, they get put through the quarterback factory and it's a very productive factory that sends guys off to the NFL. But then they are kind of like, kind of coached into playing a certain way. And like it's not, they're not like risk averse with like Julian saying makes some high level throws, right? Like C.J. straub was making bonkers throws when he was here. It's not like they're risk averse throwing the football, but I do think they get a little risk averse schematically sometimes or risk averse when it comes to the improvisational nature of the position. Let's just like, okay, that's not there. Throw it away, right? Like, Ryan Day talks a lot about quarterbacks throwing the ball away. And sometimes, yes, it is an excellent play to throw the ball into the stands. But you can also try to make a little something happen to every now and then. And I just like, there's not, there's not a whole lot of that right now.

[A]

So like for instance, Nathan is asking if, if saying hits Claire for the touchdown before the pick six, are we even having this conversation? Right? Like if he, if he has that throw down the middle. But, but is it, is that not part of what we're talking about? Like, is that is not making that throw somewhere in the risk aversion? Well, there's maybe a safety lurking over there and I'm kind of feeling some pressure around Me, maybe I shouldn't do this. That like, I don't know that you can separate something like that. Well, if he makes that throw, then we're not having this conversation. I think it's actually more like, well, if you create an attitude in the situation where he's more likely to make that throw, even if one out of every five times it's a pick, then maybe we're not having this conversation. But that's because the conversation is not needed because it already happened.

[B]

Well, I would say this, like are we, if he throws that touchdown in Ohio State WINS Something like 20 to 17 or whatever, are we having that conversation right this second? No, but the way this like it's a season long issue is not right. Like observation, I guess of Ohio State's offense and how different it is and how slow it is that I think at some point we would have come back to discussing once the season was over. Unless something happened where, you know, they got to the playoff and suddenly started playing faster and suddenly we're more explosive and we're suddenly scoring 40 points a game. But that seemed unlikely to happen. So I think we would have been having this conversation eventually ever. Anyway.

[A]

I can just double. Just to let you know, you have been elected president in the chat. Bill, the people are with you on this. I, before this game it was a defense first, first three games and Sean McDonough was even talking about on the broadcast that the first three games it was the more physical team that won. Oregon did it to Texas A and M, Indiana did it to Alabama and Miami did it to Ohio State. And I have a bunch of defensive stats that I went through and maybe I'll call them up here in a second. But the bottom line is, is that Ohio State of the first three games had by defensively had by far the lowest tackle for loss percentage of any defense that mattered. Right? Because the, the. The Alabama defense doesn't matter because the Alabama defense, just like Alabama is mid. But Texas Tech hung around with Oregon at all because it was making some things happen on defense. It was forcing turnovers, they were getting sacks, they were getting stops on third and fourth down. And Ohio State's defense all year was mature, composed, connected, selfless. Do the right thing, be in the right spot, make an offense be perfect to drive on you. But their havoc rate which you have cited a couple times was like okay, but not great and not nearly as high. When we did the defensive draft, yeah, the best defenses in this playoff, they were way below the other teams with really good defenses in Terms of havoc rate, which is tackles for loss and turnovers and making things like that happen. And then that happened in this round of the playoff, that the defenses, it's not just about like, oh, we held them to a low, you know, yards per play kind of thing, which they did. Miami average a yard less per play than Ohio State did, but Miami got to pick six. And the. These other defenses had more tackles for loss. They forced a few more turnovers. Georgia had a defensive score just like Miami had a defensive score. And Ohio State didn't really come close to anything like that. There were a couple plays that we noted. Orbel Reese and Kaden Curry, maybe both were nanosecond away from getting a hand on a ball of a quarterback when he's back to pass and maybe could have knock valor quarterback's hands. But like, it's not like they dropped the pick six. Like, maybe they were close a couple times. Caleb Downs forced two fumbles that. That Malachi Tony recovered. If that one doesn't bounce right back to Tony and it bounces to an Ohio State player who picks it up and runs it back for a touchdown, we're probably having a different conversation or.

[B]

Just recovers it in general because keeping it there allowed Miami to kick a field goal.

[A]

But. And then all, you know, all the one. The one fumble that Ohio State did for us, like, they recovered it and then then didn't do anything with it. They got one first down and then winded up punting it away. But havoc rate was a thing and it felt like havoc rate for a defense creating havoc, it's not just a stat. It's an attitude mattered to the defenses that won, at least in the first three playoff games. And Ohio State's havoc attitude on defense, I think did not match the havoc approach. Did not match Miami, did not match Texas Tech, who lost, did not match Oregon, did not match Indiana. And that also we praise their NFL like, professional defensive attitude all year, but we also kind of waited for them to maybe let it rip a little bit. And this defense did not lose the game for Ohio State against Miami, but they also didn't go win it in a way that. That Oregon's defense felt like it kind of went and wanted. Right. And I think that also is a bit of a decision, a bit of an attitude.

[B]

Yeah, no, it definitely is. And there's always been an element of sort of like bend but don't break within Matt Patricia's defenses that I think exists in Ohio State's.

[A]

But.

[B]

But not. It's not. Not to an extreme degree, at least not for most of the season. But he's never really been a hyper, aggressive defensive coordinator. And I think Ryan Day would. Would very much prefer to not have one because that can lead to giving up big plays. That can lead to games getting a little loose like this sometimes, and all of a sudden you feel like. Like, I don't think Ryan Day wants to feel like he needs to score, like, 35 points to win. So he would rather have a defense that kind of boa constrictors you a little bit like. Like Ohio State's did the last two years. But I would even say, like, they did find a way to increase their havoc rate in the postseason. Last year they did tackles for loss.

[A]

With a completely different defensive coordinator.

[B]

With a different defensive coordinator who is incredibly aggressive and like, had that so, like, taken away from him. But then, you know, whether it was like, via defensive line stunts or using Caleb Downs a little differently sometimes, like did still or. And also just like, like Jack Swiger and J.T. to E. Molawell and Tylee Williams and Ty Hamilton started playing out of their minds. That helps too. But they found a way to. To up. Up, up it a little bit. Like, they went from, I think it was like six. Six or so tackles for loss per game in the regular season to. To I think like almost 10 in the postseason.

[A]

You said they had 35 and four games in the postseason last year.

[B]

Yeah, so about nine. Nine. Yeah. So that was an uptick. And like, they found. They found that other gear. And I think part of it is like, you know, you deeper cap a little bit to Miami's offensive line. They're good, but I didn't. I don't know. I don't know that. I felt like Ohio State sort of like came in with the idea, like, we're going to do some stuff to generate havoc. It was sort of like, if it happens, it happens.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's kind of been the way of it all year for them defensively.

[A]

And, you know, I. We gave Jim Knowles a nickname on this show, Happy Blitz War. Right. Because it was like, hey, you maniac. All you try to do is blitz and. And make big plays happen, and then you get burned behind it. So, like, I. I don't think it's that, but there is again, like, there's. There's somewhere in the middle. And again, just the first three playoff games, the defenses, their percentage of like, the number of tackles per loss that happened per the number of offensive. The number of defensive snaps there were right which is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So Texas Tech had a tackle for loss on 12.3% of snaps against Oregon. Indiana had it on 12% of snaps against Alabama. Miami 11.9% of snaps against Ohio State. Oregon 11.3 against Texas Tech. Alabama got steamrolled 7.6% against Indiana. And Ohio State had four tackles for loss on 63 snaps 6.3% of the time. So half as much as the other four really good defenses in those games. Then Ole Miss, Georgia just got nuts. But Georgia also had a defensive score. But then the other part of this that's hard is third down stop rate, which is like, okay, well we're not going to force, we're not going to tackle you for loss. We're not going to force a bunch of turnovers or why they didn't force a bunch of turnovers this year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we'll stop you when it matters.

[B]

Which is what Ohio State has done all year.

[A]

Ohio State allowed Miami to convert 50% of their third downs. Texas Tech defensively somehow held Oregon to 21% on third down and still lost. Indiana's defense 27% on third down against Alabama. Miami 30% against Ohio State. Oregon 38% against Texas Tech. The only defense in the first three games, it was worse as Alabama because they stink. So Ohio State didn't create any havoc. But then they also, if they would have gotten a third down stop on the last drive, their offense would have had a shot. They couldn't get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, again, it's like, okay, well then when it's time to be professional and stay in your, stay in your gaps and be in the right place and rally the ball and tackle, they also didn't do that. So then, okay, if you're not going to get stops on third down, then maybe create some havoc. And like I'm, I keep saying it, but now I'm actually like starting to come around to it. When you look at, in the context of Indiana steamrolled Alabama in the context of Oregon literally shut out Texas Tech. Right. In the context of. The only reason Texas Tech was in that game was because they, they held Oregon down on third down and fourth down and got some tackles for loss and hung around at all. When you compare Ohio State's defensive performance to Indiana, Texas Tech and Oregon, it didn't stack up.

[B]

It didn't stack up. No Ohio State or Miami.

[A]

Or Miami.

[B]

Yeah, Ohio State found itself in one of those games where, and I think like when you, when you're a good team playing another Good team. And like you tell defensive coordinator beforehand, hey, you're going to give up like, 4.75 ish yards per game per play. I'll take it right now. The problem for Ohio State was, like, every play got that. Yes, it was. It was 4, 4, 4, 4, 4,. 4, 4. And it's like, well, all of a sudden they've taken eight minutes off the clock and they're down deep in our.

[A]

Four plus four plus four is the first down.

[B]

It's the service academy ideology. Give me three and a half yards every time we run a play, we'll never give the ball up. That has not happened to Ohio State a lot this year, but it happened to them in the Miami game. And, and, and if that's, if a team is going to operate with that kind of efficiency, then you, like, you got to do things to try to get them behind the sticks. And Ohio State never did it.

[A]

And we had talked about that, that before the game. It's like, okay, waiting for Arvell Reese. Reese to be unleashed. Okay, I don't know that that's plan A. Plan A is probably do the thing you've done all year, but if that doesn't work, then there's probably a plan B. And I would say when you're down 14, nothing, that's it kind of like not working right. And it didn't feel like there was a plan B. They kind of kept doing that stuff. It's not like they never blitz, but, like, they didn't blitz effectively. They didn't get a strip sack on Carson back.

[B]

Well, that, yeah. And that's like, actually been a thing for Ohio State for a couple of years. It's like they don't ever blitz.

[A]

They actually blitz back a decent amount.

[B]

Their glitches, like, aren't, aren't super precise. Their blitzes don't always hit probably, like, as fast as they should. There are a lot of times where they'll blitz and it's just like, well, that seemed like way too easy for the other team to block that. Whether it was like, it's a running back sometimes picking up at the blitzing defensive back or guys just sort of like, run into a wall. And that's not a map Patricia problem necessarily. Like, I, I thought that about some of Jim Knowles's stuff, too. So I, I don't know if that's just what happens when you don't sort of, like, live that life and then all of a sudden you try to ratchet it up and you're just not good at it. But I don't know that they're a particularly effective pressure team and kind of haven't been for a couple of years. When they have generated pressure, it's really just been because, like, defensive linemen started kicking butt.

[A]

Yeah. Because Jack Sawyer elevated in the playoff run last year. That was the primary reason of that. Again, like we were saying, you don't nickname forced incompletions on third down, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So this got very Ohio State heavy and people were excited about that because it was good analysis by Bill Landis. What else do you want to say about how today. And it is. It's like the light of day. So for all Ohio State fans, the sun did come up, but then it's. Now you're watching the other best teams in the country and you have more context to what happened. And I think we had more examples of like, oh, there. There was a part. So we watched most of these games. We woke up in one hotel, checked out, came to another hotel. We did go get some food at one point. But we had our eyeballs on these games most of the time. The one thing that we were like acknowledging for Ohio State is that Miami's offensive line, when you talked about some of these other things, that these other defenses were creating more havoc. Miami's offensive line was probably more of an issue to deal with than some of these other situations.

[B]

Trying to think, yeah, so, like, Miami's O line, like, significantly better than Texas Tech's offensive line, better than Ohio State's offensive line, better than Ohio State's offensive line, better than Alabama's offensive line, probably better than Indiana's, maybe. And maybe Miami and Oregon probably have the two best offensive lines remaining. Okay, Indiana's offensive line, pretty great game today, and they were the MVP of the Rose Bowl. I realize I'm saying that, but.

[A]

It'S.

[B]

At least a conversation. I think maybe that Miami might have the best offensive line.

[A]

There was a part of it. But like, given that when you watched Oregon, Texas Tech and you watched that, Oregon was like, you know, they were. They were trying to go for it on third and fourth down. They weren't always making it. They sometimes were turning the ball over, but their defense was given Texas Tech nothing. And then it allowed their offense to make enough plays eventually and they kind of ground them down, I thought there was some component of that that you thought, I think maybe Ohio State could have done a version of that to Miami, probably more difficult. But neither quarterback, neither Carson Beckett, Miami, nor Baron Morton or Texas Tech are like huge threats to really beat you down the field or anything like that.

[B]

The Oregon box. I do, I felt, I did feel like Oregon was doing a nice job of getting the ball out of Dante Moore's hands quickly.

[A]

A better. But so, so the point is there was a point.

[B]

There was a point where he had like, I think like almost 30 passing attempts but like hardly 200 yards.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because they were just like making. They were. They weren't allowing the pass rush and also they knew they were going to go for it on fourth down, I guess on at an incredibly high rate. So they were okay with like throwing it for whatever, 4 to 6 yards at a time if it just meant staying on schedule.

[A]

But, but I guess to that point though, right, and to your, you know, we're saying Dan Lanning went forward on, on a bunch of things, but couldn't Ohio State have done that? Like Ohio State wanted to get the ball out of Julian Sands hands, they said. But they didn't execute it. But Oregon kind of did execute it. But also like David Bailey was wreaking havoc at times. Right. But like ideally executed like better planned and executed. Could Ohio State have beaten Miami the way Oregon beat Texas Tech?

[B]

Yes, I think they could have. Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's. I, you know, if you're an Ohio State fan in the chat, let us know. Did you think that at all in watching that game? Like, oh, I, I actually it's like what could it have looked like? It could have looked. And Dante Moore and Julian saying aren't the exact same quarterback. Julian saying, excuse me, Dante Moore 26 of 33 for 234 yards. And Oregon, which has a great run game, ran it 47 times for 64 yards. Their two main backs ran it. Well, they're three main backs. They have three backs that they use. They ran it 33 times for 86 yards. That's terrible. But they still won because they completely shut down Texas Tech and got after them foreign. And so is that, is that primarily a function of. Well, Miami's offensive line is better and Ohio State couldn't do that. Or was there something in there? Was there something in better offensive execution? They don't have the pick six, obviously, but like they, they allowed Dante Moore to kind of find it and they eventually got there and they gave Texas Tech nothing because their defense did create more havoc than Ohio State did. And Oregon just had a better game plan for a similar opponent than Ohio State did against Miami.

[B]

I do think the, the great difficulty for Oregon's defense was, was somewhat, significantly lower than, than Ohio State's like based.

[A]

On the offensive line.

[B]

Well, yeah. And like just like Miami's offensive efficiency. Like I like I know Miami's not like an offensive juggernaut, but they were. They have been fairly efficient this year and I just think like have. Have more to contend with starting with the offensive line. But even in some of the skill spots and it running back too. I just think there's a little more there with a little more substance to Miami than there is Texas Tech.

[A]

But.

[B]

But that doesn't mean they're not worth comparing. Yeah. So like I don't know. Yeah. If you want to be Ryan. Yeah. And study the way that Oregon played against Texas Tech.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

That'd be the worst thing in the world. They were just like them. Them thinking they had a good plan and then like seeing what they put out on the field. Just like or two from them being Ohio State. The two things just like don't line up. I don't, I don't really know what Ohio State's thought process was for attacking Miami the way it did. Yeah.

[A]

All right, you want to say anything else about Ohio State? You want to talk about the other teams a little bit?

[B]

Don't worry the other teams.

[A]

All right. Like are we. I think we reached some kind of conclusion despite Ohio State's loss about how much better the Big Ten. Like I think not just at the top, but also in the middle was then the SEC this year. And I do think I was trying to work this out a little bit. I was trying to look up some stuff about like where was Iowa ranked in the playoff rankings when it had two losses and it's two losses were to Iowa State and Indiana and how people respected that and like it. You know, they were kind of a lower 2 ranked, 2 loss team. But that was mostly because Iowa State fell off a cliff, you know, that kind of thing. But there was a part of me and I think there's something to this, that Indiana was actually. And I know they were ranked number two all year, but Indiana was so good, but yet not quite acknowledged at the how good they were that Indiana beating Oregon. Oregon maybe took like more of a hit for that. And then Iowa hanging with Indiana and practically beating Indiana. Iowa didn't get as much credit for that as if someone. Somebody hung with Georgia or somebody hangs with Bama. And you talk about how good the middle of the SEC is. Right. And it's like Iowa, Indiana and Oregon as it turns out might be the two best teams in the country. And Iowa Was within minutes of beating both of them, but nobody. And it's, listen, Iowa also lost to USC and Iowa State. I get that. Right. But like, USC was also, like, had some good stuff, was a pretty competitive team. And if you want to start the circle of like, well, the Big Ten, so tough, they all beat each other up. Right. I mean, I retweeted this, the story from October that the Wall Street Journal wrote, that was Lane Kiffin saying, playing in the SEC is like playing in the NFL. Our whole point was the last game of the year between two SEC teams was as far from an NFL game as you can get, like, for good. But this was not like hyper competent, precision, pro, like NFL. This was backyard ball. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so like, it's not the NFL. You know, who's the NFL? Indiana's the NFL, Oregon's the NFL, Ohio State's the NFL. That was a professional top of the Big Ten. And I think it was underrated during the year, which then underrated the middle of the Big Ten. And you don't credit a team like Iowa or maybe even a team like usc, right. Who. Who has some good wins. But then they go and lose to Oregon, it's like, what's like. Well, Oregon's the second best team. Like, everyone's going to lose to them in a way that if the whole year Ohio State, Indiana and Oregon were viewed the way that Alabama and Georgia used to be viewed when they were the two best teams in the country in the SEC and anybody who played a close game against them, that was a lift for that losing team. Right. I think it would have changed the perception during the year. And I do think in the end, like, it's definitive. It's not just at the top, but I think it is top to bottom that the Big Ten is better than the sec. And I hope we see an adjustment in the perception next year in this sport. But I think Alabama coming out and getting embarrassed. There were people who picked Alabama getting embarrassed by Indiana. And then this Georgia Ole Miss game, like, being fun and entertaining and they had a lot of playmaking, but like, there's like not a defensive identity in this game the way that you saw with all these other teams that we talked about. Do you think there's going to be a shift? Will people acknowledge anything differently? It's going to be three years in a row of a northern Big Ten national champ.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. Like, if not now, when sort of thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But, but I, I also almost wonder if the fact that, like, if, if an SEC team does get to the national championship, like, it's going to be Ole Miss may actually keep what you're talking about for coming to fruition. People talking up like, oh, weird, weird year in the sec. Right. Like, Ole Miss is the one that comes out, of course, the Big Ten one again. Right. Like, you didn't have to play, like, as silly as it might sound based on what we just seen, like, you didn't have to play Georgia or Alabama. You have to play, like, the biggest brands or Texas, I think, even. Because I just think that's like the way the brain chemistry works for people to talk about this. So I agree with you. I think it's evident. I think it has been evident for a couple of years that they were at least on par, but now perhaps evident that the Big Ten is even stronger. But I don't know that they're going to get the credit that maybe they would deserve for that being the case if either Indiana or Oregon beats Ole Miss in the national championship. Because I just don't think that Ole Miss is viewed that way.

[A]

There's still people in the chat saying the Big Ten is top heavy. Like, that's my whole point. I don't think it is. I need mo money says the Big Ten is only top heavy. I don't think it is top heavy. I think the top is good, but it doesn't mean it's top heavy. Illinois beat Tennessee. Right.

[B]

I just don't understand compared to. Yeah, right. So, but that's the thing. I, I, again, I agree with you, but I, I don't. I think those conversations get quickly sort of like washed away with the, oh, well, the SEC just doesn't care about the bowl games.

[A]

But then there's like, no way to, like, no way to figure it out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But like, I, I think, I think the fact that the last SEC team standing is a coachless team is some indication of the league. I think it's an indictment of the league.

[B]

Yeah. And the thing you. And like, to the point of the comment, like, the teams you would use to puff up or illustrate that the middle of the SEC is stronger than the Big Ten just lost to those same Big Ten teams.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, like, what, what's the conversation then?

[A]

Right. So, like, I'll be, I'll be very curious how this shapes what, what goes forward. We saw, we saw someone say that, like, Indiana is now the heavy favorite to win the national championship. Do we necessarily agree with that? While acknowledging how awesome Indiana is?

[B]

I would, I would Consider them the favorite. I don't know that I would consider them the heavy favorite because I, I, I think I, we'll do our picks during the week, but like, I picked Oregon to win that game. We did our initial brackets and I very much still think Oregon can win that game.

[A]

I guess that's a four point spread at the moment. And again, the idea that Oregon won defense first. Their run game has been really good all year. Their run game did nothing. They turned the ball over a little bit, but like their quarterback still made enough plays for them to win. Like, Dan Lenning was aggressive the whole game. They did handle like a really good defensive front from Texas Tech. I, I think Oregon and Indiana will be a great game. And Oregon will be mad because they lost to Indiana the first time around. Do you think it is like a paradigm shift that Indiana and on an ESPN broadcast they use. Kirk Herbstreet and Chris Fowler used the word embarrassed and humiliated to describe what happened to Alabama against Indiana. Does that stick?

[B]

Yes. I'm glad I meant to bring that up when you, because you use the word embarrassed too. I, I do. I wanted to ask you what you thought of that, of those, that language being used by the company that is in bed with the SEC about the team that is still the SEC's biggest brand. Like, I thought, I thought that that was, that, that was like, I don't.

[A]

Know.

[B]

Among the most consequent, like, consequential, if not the most, like, consequential things that have been said about the sec, like in the last three years for them to say that, in that case. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was almost like they humiliated and embarrassed us.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. This is what we're paying for our partner here.

[A]

We are. We can't even enjoy the sunset, first of all because it's raining, but also because our favorite team is getting waxed by this football monster.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it is, I thought it. Because that is an indication. That is one of those things that I think that that's not, that's not just a team analysis. That's not just a moment analysis. That's a program analysis. Because everybody loses. But you don't have to get humiliated and embarrassed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Kurt Signetti treated Alabama like they were Illinois, like, like he did whatever he wanted to them and he did not stop until the clock struck zero. And that is that Nick Saban lost. Now, Nick Saban also lost 44, 16 in the national title game to Clemson. And maybe in that broadcast somebody said Alabama is humiliated, embarrassed. Then I'm sure after, if that happened Nick sab around that person after a game and shove them in a trash can. But, like, that is the thing. Like, that felt like this is not what Alabama is about and whatever happens. So Alabama remains, I think whatever Georgia is. And maybe. Maybe it's over now. Like, who's it. Who's the standard bearer of your conference? Even though Georgia had won two national titles and even though Saban was gone, I think until maybe today, you still would have said it's Alabama based on the dominance in the past history and the. The elephant and the houndstooth hat and all that. Right. And I think maybe that ended today. Even though Georgia lost. If you have a program, not a team, but a program that's getting embarrassed and humiliated, I think the torch may have passed to Kirby Smart and Georgia, officially, until further notice, you're in charge of this conference now.

[B]

It's definitely not Alabama. I'm wondering if it's anybody that could be. If it's just maybe they don't have one. I don't think they have one. And I guess, like, the answer for the Big Ten is still Ohio State or.

[A]

No, I think it is still Ohio State because Ohio State just won a national championship. They lost 13:10 to Indiana. They didn't lose by 30 to Miami and get the doors blown off. We are talking about, like, particular things that Ohio State needs to do better, but I think people still. You're not sure if Indiana is going to be able to keep this going out. Oregon has never won a national championship like there. I don't think it's been taken. Nobody. I don't know that people are talking about. Miami was more physical than Ohio State. Nobody watched that game and said Ohio State was humiliated and embarrassed.

[B]

I thought Ohio State's defense is pretty physical. Yeah.

[A]

In losing to. I thought you're about to say, like, you're on a. You're on one tonight. And in a good way. I thought you're about to say, I thought Ohio State was humiliated and embarrassed, and then people are gonna be like, bill, their offensive line was. What happened to Ohio State is not equivalent to what Indiana did to Alabama.

[B]

No. No, I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah. Ohio State got. Got manhandled a bit at the line of scrimmage and lost the game. That it still kind of had a pathway to win.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Alabama got run off the rose ball field.

[A]

Yeah. Josh says I was. Josh B. I was watching the SEC network, which they were upset about nil destroying the SEC dominance, which we talked about two years ago. Like like, yes. Sorry. Yeah, I. I'm. Thank you for passing that along, Josh. As you may know, I don't consume a lot of SEC network coverage. If the SEC is, like, only catching up to that, shame on them. And then, like, if they're mad. Like, if you're mad about it, what are you really mad about? Are you mad that the sport changed and you liked it the old way, or are you mad that you were better at cheating in the old days and now everybody can do it because it's not cheating anymore? It's the second thing. Right?

[B]

It's the. It's the second thing. But it's also mad that whatever. The rest of the SEC just can't ride Georgia and Alabama's coattails to relevancy every year because those teams aren't going to win the national title every year anymore.

[A]

Yeah. So the. Somebody from Texas said, I thought the Buckeyes offense was humiliated, embarrassed in the first half. And I think that, that that's probably fair. Definitely. But not the whole game.

[B]

Not the whole game.

[A]

Not the whole game. I thought Alabama was humiliated, embarrassed the whole game. And. And by the way, I buy whole game. I mean, whole season. And. And I will say that, like, you.

[B]

Know, I wanted to say. I wanted to say earlier in the show when you said that Kurt Signetti was the guy who figured out how to deal with the bye week, that. No, that's not true. That he just got to play the worst team.

[A]

Oh, yeah. That's not fair. I mean, that is one of those things. It's like it. It will keep conference championship games alive because it's like, man, if you win the Big Ten, you get on the same side of the bracket as Bama and it's like, oh, my God, I'm gonna start calling Alabama Alabama Madison. Oh, is that all right? Or should I call it James Alabama? Which is better?

[B]

I like.

[A]

Which is more insulting.

[B]

I like Alabama Madison.

[A]

All right, Alabama Madison. So I don't think we're in a situation now where you have to question whether Alabama Madison should even be allowed in the playoff. It's bad for the sport. It's bad for the people involved. Wouldn't Alabama Madison be better off just trying to play like a state tournament with UAB and Auburn and Alabama Tech and they can like play a little four team round robin and then award the Alabama state championship, and then maybe Alabama Madison has a chance to lift the trophy again someday. That.

[B]

Would that be fun for all of them?

[A]

Yeah. Do you. Do you think Indiana will sustain this? And it is a difficult.

[B]

Beyond this year.

[A]

Beyond this year. Because our good buddy Josh M. Asked this in the chat and we had talked about this. I certainly think it is possible that Indiana is going to be Clemson.

[B]

But Clemson's real reign atop the sport was like what, only like 10 years? 10 years, eight.

[A]

I'm trying to like when they were competing, I mean they were number four in the preseason. Like they had a bad year this year. But like they've. They were really. So.

[B]

Yeah, no, I can say a decade's about right.

[A]

And that it's.

[B]

If you like start. You started with the Orange bowl win against Ohio State in 13.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they get to the playoff in 15, they win it in 16. They're like a playoff mainstay. They win it again in 18 in the playoff. 1920. It has fallen off since 20.

[A]

So between 2011 and. Well, between. They made the playoff last year. Between 2011 and 2024, they won double digit games every year except one. So they finished starting in 2011, which is Dabo Sweeney's third year. They finished in the final AP ranking 22 11, 8, 15, 21412, 3, 14, 13, 2014. So they had a six year stretch where they were in the top four at the end of the year every year. And they were a national championship contender every single year for six years. But they remained like top 15, top 20. They made the playoff last year. They were preseason number four this year. They still mattered for well over. For a decade. Well over a decade.

[B]

They did matter for a decade. And. But I would say like on the, on the other side of their second national title in 2018, the level that they had to sustain to stay at the top of the ACC is significantly lower than the level that Indiana would have to sustained to say at the top of the Big Ten.

[A]

So I guess the question is like, when you're talking about like what makes Indiana relevant, would Indiana only be relevant if they're competing for national titles? Or if Indiana's no. 9 and 3 and finishes 18th in the country, is that like, dang, Indiana's still good at ball?

[B]

I think they can have like a step back from what, what this is and remain relevant. Like if, especially if you can see, because they're trying to do this thing right where they're, they're trying to up their high school recruiting. They're still in the portal. They want to be a team that's like not in the portal probably quite as much as they have been the last two years, even though that's still going to be important for everybody. Like, I think there's going to be a year and maybe it's next year where those two things are like sort of like close to passing one another. But in the meantime you might go like 9 and 3 or 8 and 4, but if then you can bounce back from that immediately and then go like 10 and 2 again and back in the playoff, then yeah, I would consider that sustaining something even if you're not going to the playoff every single year.

[A]

I think, I think it is about almost like remaining in the playoff. Conversation in the preseason, are people saying, are they picking Indiana to make the playoff? Hey, could Indiana finish in the top 16 and make the playoff? I have them in the playoff. What do you think? It's like, oh, they lost in September, now they're three and one. Like, are you talking about Indiana all year? Right. And then they're making the playoff off enough and they have a big win here and they play a couple big games like from where they were. Like, they matter. Are you one of the ten programs that matter? You don't have to finish in the top 10 every year to be one of the 10 programs that matter. Right. And so to come from the losing his program in college football to we matter every year, like, that would be a version that would be sustaining to me. And it. Because it means, well, they're not going to drop back and like go six and six, two out of three years.

[B]

I, I think that's right. I put there are multiple sort of like unknowns with that. Like the number one thing is a roster building piece. What does this look like when the Jamie guys cycle out? Yes. How, how much can Indiana truly elevate its high school recruiting? And then also if like Kurt Signetti, who I think is, is probably still going to be around for another, whatever eight or so years coaching, if not longer than that, I don't think he's going to be able to hold on the Mike Shanahan and Brian Haynes for that amount of time. Like, what happens when he has to replace those two guys, his offensive and defensive coordinator, because they've been with him for a long time and for a lot of his success at James Madison and out Indiana. And that's the test like of any coach sign that he's not a young coach, but he's like new to this game. So that, like that, that is probably that might be the even greater test of sustainability is like, can you, can you keep your offensive defense humming as you lose coordinators or at least maybe.

[A]

Keep one because Let me. So Bryant Haynes had an interesting quote leading into the Rose bowl about he's not necessarily in a hurry to be a head coach right now.

[B]

Well, they might not leave. Like Brian Haynes could be pretty Venables.

[A]

That's my question. Yeah, I mean and then when Brent Venables left, that was actually maybe like sort of the beginning of the end of that era of Clemson dominance. Right. They lost their defensive coordinator and that identity that was.

[B]

Had multiple court like Venables has not been going long. That was already had multiple defensive coordinators.

[A]

And he cycled through. He had lost Jeff Scott, he lost Tony Elliott on the offensive side of the ball. They brought in Garrett Riley from tcu, which was a big time hire. They just fired him. Like they, they've been. I mean the first they went to the house guy, Brandon Streeter and fired him. Like they've, they've gone through the offense but they had a, they had a defensive identity. Signetti is 64. I mean like if he coaches till he's 80, he's gonna be long around for a long time. I don't think that's impossible. It seems like a guy's in good shape, doesn't wear a T shirt under his quarter zip. It seems like. Right.

[B]

No, I. But what if he wins it this year and it's just like I proved it, I'm the best and what retires.

[A]

He's 64.

[B]

So what?

[A]

I think he wants to coach till he's 80. Yeah.

[B]

Maybe most of these guys.

[A]

I don't want to Coach till I'm 80.

[B]

Football coaches. Football coaches want to work until they're dead.

[A]

But don't you think Brian Haynes could. If they go on a 10 year run here where they're relevant for 10 years. Relevant. Competing at the top of the sport, making the playoff multiple times in that decade. I don't think they have to win another. They probably have to win at least one national championship. I mean to make a clumsy comparison, you have to win a national championship. But that they remain, they remain a team that matters and a team that can win and plays big games. Do you think Bryant Haynes has to stay to make that possible?

[B]

I don't think he has to stay. No. I'm just kind of. I'm just curious where Signetti goes, if he has to replace him.

[A]

But I. But we also think maybe the, if we're making a Clemson comparison, the idea that Bryant Haynes could be the Venables in that is possible given what he just said. Yeah, he's got time to go do that. Okay. People had talked about in our chat. Again, you guys know we have a substack. Bill and Doug OSU substack.com sort of talking about like, is Indiana the Ohio State of last year, but sort of like, I think Oregon this, Oregon is the Ohio State of. Like there is something fueling them that they feel like they fell short. For Ohio State, it was the Michigan game that had just happened last year. I think for Oregon, it's the way it's both the Indiana loss, but also the way last year ended when they went into the playoff as the number one seed and didn't even win playoff game. Now they've won two playoff games. Like there, there I think is Indiana has it. I mean, Kurt Signetti wakes up hungry. So it's like to try to say that someone's hungrier than Kurt Signetti in Indiana. But I do think Oregon is fueled very specifically by disappointment and loss and expect unmet expectations. Right. Where Indiana is fueled by. Everybody thinks Indiana stinks. He just said that again in the post game after Rose bowl today. Like, you know, because whatever the question was. But he's like, why? Because we're. Our name's Indiana. And it's like I. But it's one of those things. It's like, it's like, I hope people stop asking those questions, but actually I hope they don't because every time he's got a good answer because he has a chip on his shoulder and he should. He's filling up the tank. But I, I. Do you think a con. A comparison between Oregon this year and Ohio State last year is relevant in any way?

[B]

And in what sense?

[A]

Like fueled by unmet expectations, disappointing losses at the highest level of the sport for a very talented team that has everything it needs to win, but it's also angry about a specific loss or two.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I think so. Do you.

[A]

I mean, I think. And again, one's a year earlier, but I think you can look at. I think you can look at Ohio State's losses to Oregon. So Ohio State's lost to Oregon during the regular season last year would be Oregon's loss to Indiana during the regular season this year. And now you're meeting that team in the playoff and they beat you the first time in the regular season and you're mad about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Oregon's on the other side of that. But I think to be shocked and lose a game that really matters to you would be Ohio State's Michigan loss on the last game of the regular season right before the playoff last year. But for Oregon it would be the loss to Ohio State in the playoffs last year when they were number one. And so Ohio State was shocked. They lost to another ranked Michigan team. Oregon was shocked. They got boat raced as the number one seed and they were undefeated. Right. And so they had like two different kind of things that are fueling them. And we thought, we felt that a little bit at Big Ten media days. I think it changed. We had an off season sort of analysis of Oregon and then we got the Big Ten media days and I think we changed our view on Oregon and we viewed them as even more of a contender. Right. Because they are talented, they do have transfers, they do have young guys, they do have a base of talent. But also they are ticked off. And then they're more ticked off because Kurt Signetti came to their place and beat them. I think it's gonna be a great game, but I think Oregon's fueled by something. But again, how would you dare say that anyone's more fueled than Kurt Signetti is? A guy drinks gasoline.

[B]

But the thing like Dan Lanning, like Mike actually drink gasoline.

[A]

Like what are those two gonna do to each other?

[B]

Yeah, they might both spontaneously combust before the game happens. I, I don't even know how you could decide which one of those two teams you think would be more motivated for the game. Yeah, like for different reasons. To your point. I don't know. I, I, I think I might lean Oregon only because like, like Indiana, Indiana had high expectations for itself last year. But I also think there's, there's like a reality that came along with what happened to them, happened to them last year losing to Ohio State and losing to Notre Dame in like pretty non competitive fashion that I don't know, like lingers in quite the same way. They're out to prove something. No doubt about that. But I think the fact that like Oregon was the best team in the country last year until they got destroyed and like thought they were actually cruising to a national title. Like here they are again with the chance to play for it. I think I, I maybe would give a slight edge to Oregon there.

[A]

All right, we'll wrap up with this. We appreciate everybody being here. The travel for Oregon is going to hurt them.

[B]

Yeah, no, I wonder, I wonder that. It's, it's a pretty big ask to have them fly to Miami, fly back to Oregon and then fly to Atlanta.

[A]

Landing versus Sigs. Let's go. That's from David. It's interesting. Okay, there. I think there were four out of the 12 teams that were in the playoff this year that were also in the playoff last year. Right. I think that's the right number.

[B]

Four. Four, yeah. Georgia, Oregon, Indiana and Indiana.

[A]

Georgia did not win a playoff game last year and did not win a playoff game this year. Ohio State did not win a playoff game this year, but they won four playoff games last year. Oregon did not win a playoff game last year, but they've won two this year. Indiana did not win a playoff game last year, but they've won two this year.

[B]

They've won one this year.

[A]

They won one this year. When you think about. I always think the difference between a team and a program is like an interesting discussion because you can have a great team for a year, but a program is foundation. It's resources, it's staff, it's strategy. It's a head coach that has something going on and it makes you believe that this is not. Like, you're not going to reset next year. Right. Like, right now. So, like, like, the past matters a little bit. The present matters the most. The future matters. Some are the three best programs in the country right now. Indiana, Oregon and Ohio State.

[B]

Boy, I don't think I would put Indiana there. I would. I think I would. I would say Indiana is the best team in the country. I don't know that they've earned the program distinction just yet. So I would probably still say, like, Ohio State, Oregon, Georgia.

[A]

Georgia. Who has won a playoff game in the last two years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And lost in the first round to Ole Miss and Notre Dame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, in the second round, but their first game.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I would. I think I would. I think I would still say that. Yeah. About Georgia.

[A]

And that is. So, again, I think in the order, like when we talk about program, present still matters the most. Future next. And then passed that. So if you're Indiana's number one right now, they're the favorite to win the national championship. There is still some reasonable. We're just not exactly sure what it's going to look like in Indiana when the JMU guys wash out, when d' Angelo Pons and Mikhail Camara and Aiden Fisher and Elijah Surratt and those guys, they've done. They went from good quarterback to great quarterback. They're going to have another transfer quarterback. It's certainly going to be somebody who's qualified. But will he have a season like Fernando Mendoza? We don't know. They were really smart in the portal this year. They're still going to be smart. But, like, do you. You. You think it's you're leaving open the possibility that there's a little bit of a lightning in a bottle here thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Specifically around the JMU guys. Maybe.

[B]

Yeah. I don't and I don't necessarily like that I think that way and like kind of hope that I'm wrong about it. But I, I can't speak the truth. I can't like really like shake the feeling that again, I don't. They're not going to win the national title and then win six games. But yeah, I do think there could be like a slight step back before a return to playoff contention.

[A]

Yeah. Can't say. Oh she was the best program. One year doesn't prove a program. But I mean like that's okay.

[B]

Of course they've never been bad.

[A]

So I mean like I don't like. So then, then who are you like if like that kind of comment. I wish one year doesn't prove a program, then what do you. So what does prove a program? So they won the national championship last year they were undefeated in the regular season. This year there was a two seed going into the playoff and they were one of the final eight teams and they like were in the the 14 playoff half the time when they had it. And so like it's just one of those things like that then who is right. So then the Nat, the best program is just the national champion of that year every year. Like that's how you analyze it. So I mean like this is. We're trying to have a conversation about like then, now, future, whatever. And it's like, I mean I don't even if that's an Ohio State person or not Ohio State person. But like you have to, you have to be a grown up about this kind of stuff. Like Ohio State's not perfect but there's like a, there's a standard that is set and I'm really curious like Kurt Signetti is setting a standard and the interesting thing is that Kurtz Ignetti has set a standard for everybody else in the sport. Everybody that's not an existing blue blood. Kurt Signetti set a new standard for them. He set a new standard of what is possible and how quickly it's possible. Right. But now is he setting a new standard in Indiana and like obviously they're resourced, obviously they're in. Obviously they're strategized. They're keeping their two coordinators. They're doing what it takes. They're going to be attractive to portal recruits. But I think there's no doubt about the standard they've set for others. I'm. I agree with you. I don't think you can be 100% there. I think they're the new Clemson. That would be my prediction. What we outlined before about what the next 10 years look like. That's what I think is going to happen. But it probably takes one more year to really lock that in.

[B]

I would take one more. I think if it. Yeah, if they, I think if they got back to the playoffs next year, I'd be right. I'd be right there with you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. But because the point of that is who do you feel better about whose Future the next three years, who will be the more successful program? 26, 27, 28. Indiana or Alabama?

[B]

I would say Indiana today. Either gonna ask me Indiana or Georgia, because I think I might say Georgia, but if you asked Indiana, Alabama. I think I would say Indiana.

[A]

I think I would say. I don't know if Alabama thinks they have the right coach or not. Indiana has no doubt about that.

[B]

I think we're back to the. Is Kaylin DeBoer the right guy to be there?

[A]

Right. Which has been like fits and starts of like, you know, I was crowing that Alabama was. Was overrated and mid when they lost to Florida State. And then like they won a couple games and they beat Georgia. And then everybody in the SEC was like, see, cram it. You were wrong. And then they kept, I thought winning some games that like, yeah, they look good, but they also kind of escaped in a bunch of them. And then they collapsed down the stretch and it's like they got in the playoff. Nobody thought they should get in the playoff. I mean, a lot of people didn't. I thought based on what their resume was, that, that they earned the spot to be in it. Two loss in the regular season. I don't think they should have dropped in the ratings because they lost the SEC championship game. I also think probably they should have never passed Notre Dame, but the committee did that. But like, were they one of the 12 best teams on the field at the end of the year? Nobody in America thought that. And then Alabama, to its credit, Alabama Madison went out and proved it that they were not one of the 12 best teams in America at the end of the year because they look like crap against Indiana.

[B]

Yeah, I, I agree. And the other thing, because I see about the Alabama recruiting footprint, like, it's not. I, I think it's a certain something worth arguing. And Alabama is recruiting well under Kaylin DeBoer. But Alabama also, like, by all the recruiting metrics had the most talented roster in the country this year, and they lost three games and got their butts kicked in the Rose bowl by Indiana. So, like, the recruiting footprint and the recruiting success of Caleb DeBoer doesn't mean so much to me right now because he has a very talented roster. Didn't do anything with it.

[A]

Let me ask you a question. Did the Alabama aura die in the Rose bowl today? Yes. The Alabama aura created by Bear Bryant, resuscitated by Nick Saban, murdered on January 1, 2026 by Kalyn DeBoer and this version of the Alabama Crimson Tide.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What's more important, recruiting footprint or aura?

[B]

I. I think. I think aura. Yeah.

[A]

Because they were running on fumes. Like, I think they were recruiting in a way that was almost. People were. Whatever they were doing in recruiting and I. So you have money to throw around. I get it. Of course that matters. But they were still able to kind of act like they were Saban Alabama and recruit like that and whatever his roster and whatever they're. But whatever they're saying to these high school kids because, like, they're still getting top five classes. I just don't think those kids are like, man, I cannot wait to play for Kaylin DeBoer. That cannot be what it was. They still wanted to play for Bama because when they were in 8th grade, Bama was Sabin Bama. And there was like, Alabama was good enough. They almost made the playoff last year. They did make it this year. Like, they were still good enough that those kids could convince themselves that the Bama that they were signing up for was that Bama. And I don't think they can convince themselves of that anymore because that Bama wouldn't have gotten boat raced by Indiana and the Rose Bowl.

[B]

It would not have. I saw the comment that says the Alabama Mystique and the Michigan man were killed in the same year. Oh, my God, what a year.

[A]

How about that? Man, that sounds like a great. That would have been a good headline for this. Okay, we can get into that later. Things that died in college football this season. And those are the two. The first two things.

[B]

Yeah. Alabama Mystique and the Michigan man sound like superhero duo.

[A]

Yeah. But it. Right. It's.

[B]

It's like, don't want to come help you.

[A]

It's like the cartoon duo that they run on, like, at. On Saturday night live at 12:50 right before they go off the air. And it's. And it's like. And Sharon Morse kind of like in. Like in a Little bit like an ill fitting, like superhero costume being the Michigan man. And. And then Nick Saban would probably come in at the end and kill them both. All right, that'll do it. We appreciate you guys being here. Round of applause for Bill Landis. Bama. Now Clemson. Oh, yeah. No, I think it is interesting to think about. How, like, how quickly can you lose your mystique and lose your aura, Right? That's like, that's a little bit of an interesting conversation when you're like, when.

[B]

You'Re sort of like new money like Clemson. I, I would say like I'm not surprised that you lose it fast. I'm a little surprised how fast Alabama lost. Yeah.

[A]

Because I just like there's something about like it's special to wear that uniform. It's special to play in that stadium. It's special to play in front of these fans. But I don't know that Alabama would feel special to anybody right now.

[B]

There's not a lesson in there for other programs in college football who operate at that level. Yeah, you can lose it.

[A]

You can lose it. That is a good lesson. All right, thanks, you guys for being here. If you, if you want to go sign up for our OSU coverage, the portal is going to open on Friday. I guess it's technically congratulations. It's the. Thursday was New Year's Day and Friday is happy portal day. So enjoy it. With the start on January 2nd, we're assuming that the 73 players join new teams in the last 15 minutes of this show. You can find us on substack Bill and do Bill and Doug osu.substack.com that's Bill and Doug. Osu.substack.com and you can find us here on this YouTube feed and on the podcast feeds where you are listening. We appreciate you guys being here. College football is over for Ohio State. It is not over for four other teams. We'll continue to talk about the sport at a national level. We'll continue to talk about what's going on for the Ohio State Buckeyes and we will continue it through the off season on this feed and on substack. For now, Happy New Year. Thanks to you guys for being here. He's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lee Maurice and that was the Bill and Doug Show.