← The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk
Devin Sanchez-Jermaine Mathews-Dominick Kelly, Jeremiah Smith's gravity: Ohio State practice No. 14
00:51:15
Ohio State held practice No. 14 of spring football in Ohio Stadium on Friday, and Doug Lesmerises and Bill Landis were there to take it all on. On this episode of The Bill and Doug Show, they discuss the depth chart on both sides of the ball.
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- [00:00]
A
If you're a therapist listening, you already know your work doesn't magically end when the session does. There's scheduling, notes, billing, insurance, follow ups, all of the admin that happens before and after the work you actually care about. That's where SimplePractice comes in. SimplePractice is an all in one EHR built specifically for therapists with HIPAA compliant tools and high trust certification. No juggling systems or cutting corners, just to keep things moving. So scheduling, documentation, billing, insurance, client communication, even automated appointment reminders. It all lives in one place. And if you're starting or growing a practice, SimplePractice also offers a credentialing service that helps simplify insurance enrollment, which can be a huge lift alone. Right now, SimplePractice is celebrating mental health Provider day with an exclusive offer. Up to 70% off for one year. Yes, up to 70% off for one Year. But hurry, offer ends May 15th at simplepractice.com simplepractice.com. Welcome back to the Bill and Doug Show. Bill Landis and Doug Lamaris. He's Bill Landis on Doug Lay. Maurice. I wonder about that sometimes. Landis, like if I should remind people like who's who, especially if you're just listening and not watching.
- [01:16]
B
But I think typically if someone is introducing themselves and another person, they, they do themselves last. So I hope that people, I feel
- [01:25]
A
like I go back and forth though, I gotta figure out how to host.
- [01:29]
B
Maybe now you gotta be thinking maybe you do.
- [01:30]
A
I know, I know. We watched practice 14 for the Ohio State Buckeyes on Friday. We're going to talk about some of that. We were at the coaches clinic on Thursday evening. We're going to talk about some of that. The spring game is practice 15 of spring on Saturday, noon 13 admission on the Big Ten Network. Cincinnati had a spring game scheduled for noon on Saturday that they have canceled because of the forecast it's going to rain in Ohio Stadium on Saturday. But as we record this at 12:30 on Friday, the spring game is on. It's on the Big Ten network. It's a, they're gonna, Ohio State football is not Cincinnati football. So I'm not saying Cincinnati canceled their spring game to be like, I don't know, but like be prepared to get wet and they can't play if it's lightning.
- [02:18]
B
They can't play if it's lightning. Yeah, I, I, I double checked on some of that on Friday morning. I asked because there was a year, there was a year in my time covering the team that they moved up the spring game. I remember because of some weather that was coming in. So I asked like, hey, is there any thought about doing that? They said, no, they'll play in the rain. Obviously, if there's lightning, they'll delay. And they're willing to delay a little bit. But they're also on a bit of a time crunch because they got the saddle up thing at the Woody on Saturday night. So, like, they're not going to delay until 6 clocks clock to finish the spring game. So we'll see what happens. But that's the other thing. It's like, I. I wonder, like, Cincinnati cancel whatever. It's fan day, and Nippert Stadium can. But I would imagine they're still gonna do their 15th spring practice, like, at their indoor facility. Ohio State can't. They are, yeah. Like, Ohio State's indoor facility currently has a stage on the 50 yard line for Darius Rucker to do a concert. Right. So they can't. They can't. They either practice in the shoe on Saturday or they don't do their 15th spring practice.
- [03:15]
A
How Hootie and Lightning denied Ohio State its 15th spring practice and it caught up with them in the college football playoffs.
- [03:26]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [03:28]
A
Would you say that fit? You know, we don't. So fingers crossed for everybody. It's central Ohio. The weather changes like that. The forecast can change. Like, if you're planning to go and you have the ticket, I wouldn't not go. And we were just like discussing, like, I don't know, like if. If there is lightning and they can't, like, what would they do? Like, I don't. You know, we'll fight for your refund if you get screwed. So.
- [03:53]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [03:54]
A
I don't know. John Gruden was at the coach's clinic.
- [04:00]
B
Sure was.
- [04:00]
A
Thursday night. I said, it reminded me. I've thought this twice in my life. I thought it one time with Jim Harbaugh at Big Ten media days where he was like, wearing the khakis and wearing the Michigan cap. And I said, it looks like Jim Harbaugh is wearing a Jim Harbaugh Halloween costume. And at the coach's clinic on Thursday night, I said, it sounds like Jon Gruden is doing a Jon Gruden impression.
- [04:24]
B
Yes.
- [04:24]
A
Because he was. It was just like an hour and a half of like, you gotta love football, man. And it was just like, is this for real? Like, is he so far in the grootedness of all of this that he can't help himself? He.
- [04:39]
B
He's.
- [04:40]
A
A couple times was like, check out My bar stool. Instagram man. And it was like, what are we doing here? He also talked about football, but we heard Arthur Smith. We heard Matt Patricia. It was lovely evening.
- [04:50]
B
Yeah, it was. I like going to the coaches clinic because you oftentimes in those presentations at the coordinator. So typically Ryan Day will give a little speech. I think he's also giving one on Friday. We're not. That's happening right now as we're talking. So we're not over there on Friday. But both coordinators will do some kind of presentation every year. And then there's a guest speaker, like John Gruden, but the coordinator. Sometimes it's like. It's like hardcore ball talk. It's like, here's. Here's some stuff drawn up. Here's some practice clips to, like, correspond with the play. And like, neither Matt Patricia nor Arthur Smith really did that. They sort of talked. Matt Patricia did like a full thing on turnovers and their turnover circuit and how they. How they teach that in practice. And Arthur Smith did like a. More like a holistic, here's how you build your week as a game planner thing. Not uninteresting, but not exactly what I expected. And I'm sure the coaches who went there loved it. So it was good. Like, I. And I think, too, whatever, like John Gruden, a little bit of him goes a long way for me, but I understand that people like him, especially football coaches like him a lot. And I think he understands that, like, he wants. He wants to give them what they think they're signing up for when they go to a thing where Jon Gruden speaking. So he definitely, yeah, leaned into all aspects of that.
- [05:59]
A
A lot of Aaron Rodgers clips he did.
- [06:02]
B
Can we say, like, yes, he crapped on lsu, like, the whole time. Every. Every single. He's like, here's an example of how not to do a thing. It's lsu. Here's an example not to do another thing. It's lsu.
- [06:15]
A
Like, the whole time I was ready. I was ready to hand that guy a sword, man. Ohio native John Gruden is like, the SEC can't play ball, man. He didn't actually say that, but he implied it. All right, There's. There was something that connected Thursday and Friday to me a little bit, and it's like one of these things, like, like, obvious, duh. Everybody knows this, Doug, but just because something's obvious doesn't mean I'm not going to say it. So then one day after they had the coaches clinics with the speech, you know, the big speeches on the stage, the individual position group coaches break off and they have a whiteboard, and you can go to an individual session. And I always, you know, it's like, do you want to try to hit, like, six different coaches for 10 minutes, or do you just want to, like, kind of sit and absorb a guy's entire presentation? So I just went to Macareri and the safeties because I just am so interested in the safeties this year and just listen to Macarrea the whole time. And it was just Macarere talking about things like. And it was just questions from coaches, well, what if. What coverage should you do here if a team lines up like this? And he was explaining like, well, you can do this and you can do that.
- [07:21]
B
And.
- [07:21]
A
And one of the things he was talking about at one point was like, well, you can do this with your safety. If on this side of the field, your corner can take care of this receiver, then you can go over here and help. He was talking about, they call something a sin when there it's five DBs covering three receivers on one side of the field because it's like, it's a sin to be able to do that because it's like, so good that you can cover 5 on 3 instead of 4 on 3. But that was predicated on that safety not having to help on the other side of the field, where that one receivers on one corner. And then he was just like, said like 10 different times, if that's Jeremiah Smith, then your safety can't come over and help because that safety has to help on Jeremiah Smith. And so, like, duh. But it's just interesting to hear Mac Rare say it. And then just watching practice a little bit on Saturday, I really just thought, like, the gravity of Jeremiah Smith. Just affects every snap when he's on the field. There is just a different gravity to everything. And it's not just like in that moment. It's not like they're changing every coverage because Jeremiah Smith's on the field, but it's just like the way he goes about his business. He's so big, he's so fast. I was watching one route where Cam Calhoun was covering Jeremiah Smith, and I was like, oh, that actually pretty good coverage by Cam Calhoun. And I sort of looked down like the play was over, and then I looked up and the ball was going to Jeremiah Smith, and he caught it. And I was like, okay, well, that was good coverage. And they threw it to him anyway. And he caught it anyway.
- [08:55]
B
Yeah.
- [08:55]
A
And it is just a reminder of how scarce this is. Man, like, he just is the sun. And everything revolves around him with the offense and the defense. And I just am interested and I don't know how we do it. I mean, by we, I mean you. I just want to track every snap this year to really try to figure out, like to try to try to articulate the gravity of Jeremiah Smith, like every single snap. Here's what a defense did, and if this was not Jeremiah Smith, it was a, you know, an average replacement level player, the defense would have done this instead. And it's not like, you know, didn't take me three years to realize it, but my God, that guy is just, he, he's, he's the barracuda and the fishbowl man. And once you drop him in, he eats everybody else.
- [09:53]
B
Yeah, I would want to know too, like from Ryan Day or any of the offensive coaches who have been here for a couple years if, if it's at all different from. Because it's not like he's the first great receiver Ohio State has had. And obviously your best receiver always gets the most attention. But is this in any way different? Like, is this another level to that? I would imagine the answer to that is yes, but it'd be nice to hear that from them. It was also fun. Like at the clinic on, on Thursday night, Ryan Day was doing a little chalk talk stuff. He doesn't always do that, but he did some this year. And somebody asked like, well, what do you, how do you, when you have a player like that to sort of like singular talent at receiver? How do you make sure you're getting in the ball enough and, and not putting him in positions where like, it's easy to take him away. And Ryan J. Drew like a three by one set on the board. So three receivers on one side and one receiver to the other side. And the isolated receiver by himself was Jeremiah Smith. And he said, don't do that. He said, don't, don't ever leave him in a place where it's easy to double team him because he just drew like two defense, two defenders standing right over him. He's like, now it creates space because gravity to your point, because on the other side you have a lot more freedom to do other things as you probably have a numbers advantage. But if you're intent on getting that guy the ball, like if you stick them isolated on any side of the formation, you're basically relegating him to being a decoy. Um, so I remembered that as we watched practice on Friday and it felt like Jeremiah Smith Was in the slot a lot.
- [11:15]
A
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That I will be. I mean, we were, we were kind of obsessed with that. The year with Marv.
- [11:21]
B
Right.
- [11:21]
A
Marv's second year to start or like, how much are they going to put him in the slot? And then you look back and they did, but it wasn't, I don't even think it was 20%. So I'll be curious in the end what the number is for Jeremiah Smith on moving around the field. Do you want to just run through both sides of the ball, kind of like stray observations as we get ready for the spring game.
- [11:39]
B
Yeah.
- [11:40]
A
On Saturday.
- [11:41]
B
Okay, that works for me. Yeah.
- [11:43]
A
Why don't we start on the offensive side of the ball with the quarterbacks and just like, you know, we were saying, like, I don't, like, we can't. We're not supposed to. Like, I don't. This is not like, let's run through. Okay. Play 17. Tavian Sinclair dropped back. He looked to his left. What do you think of the Cubies?
- [12:02]
B
Hit or miss? I think it's weird. Like, so we've been able to go to this particular practice this Friday before the spring game coaches clinic practice for the last few years. And I feel like it's always like kind of a sloppy practice and the offense was pretty sloppy on, on Friday there were Julian saying through an interception, Tavian Sinclair should have thrown two. There were a couple of false start penalties and the practice ended with like the third string center rolling the ball to Justin Martin on a snap. And I think like Ryan Day actually seemed like kind of pissed by all of it. I think he, I don't think typically you want to end practice on a play like that, but I think he had seen enough. And I didn't hear exactly what he said, but he seemed unhappy when he addressed the team afterward. So I just say that to like lay the groundwork. Like not the, not the most crisp offensive practice I've seen. Kind of across the board. I thought like Tavian Sinclair, to me both had like all of the highlights and kind of most of the low lights at the quarterback position. He had three really good throw, like three throws were probably the best three throws of the practice. And then should have thrown two interceptions. Jalen McLean dropped one, Cam Calhoun dropped one. Or no, Leroy Roker dropped one and Cam Calhoun dropped one.
- [13:17]
A
Yeah, Leroy Roker dropped one like in the middle. Like Leroy Roker made like a nice like roaming free safety. Read on a, on like a kind of a deeper throw that maybe looked a little late and he Got there with the help and dropped it. And the Cam Calhoun one was sort of like more like an inside throw and like, it kind of hit Cam Calhoun in the hands.
- [13:37]
B
Yeah. It was like a third. Yeah. Third down drill. But I will say, like, Tavian was aggressive. Like, he was letting it rip. Because even, like, the three really good throws that I thought he made, one was, like, on a play action pass to Chris Henry Jr. In the middle of the field. Chris Caudle on the run looks really good doing it. The other was like a deep corner route to Nolan Baldo was like an incredible throwing catch. I'm not really entirely sure how the ball got there.
- [14:04]
A
It was almost. It reminded me a little bit of like the Dante Moore throw against Iowa.
- [14:08]
B
Yes.
- [14:09]
A
Last year, where it was like the window was like the size of a Dixie cup and the quarterback hit it and the guy made the catch. Yeah. And people were like, nolan Bowdo got up, and people were like, nolan Bowdo, let's go.
- [14:21]
B
Yeah.
- [14:21]
A
Sinclair put it, like, through the eye of a needle.
- [14:24]
B
Yeah. And then he sort of did that again on a different kind of throw in the middle of the field to. I believe it was Nate Roberts. So it was like. I don't know. You say this sometimes, right? Like you're okay with a quarterback throwing interceptions in practice if he's being aggressive and, like, trying to figure out what he can and can, can and can't get away with. And that's sort of how it felt for Tavi and Sinclair to me. And then I would say, like, a lot of those throws happened, like, sort of in quick, quick succession. And I felt like prior to them, Julian saying was just, like, kind of doing his thing where, like, a lot of stuff's covered. Let me just take the check down and we'll keep going. But then I felt like he started being more aggressive as Tavian started being. So he. Julian had a really nice throw down the sideline that Kyle Parker should have caught, and he didn't catch it. So, like, you know, and Justin Martin had a good throw on a wheel around the Brandon in this. So, you know, there was. We got to see him open it up a little more in terms of, like, throwing it down the field than we did in the Student Appreciation Day, so that was nice. I don't know that it was like a quarterback day that blew you away, but there was some nice stuff out there and a couple of mistakes, too.
- [15:27]
A
Sans pick was like an air mail over the middle that Jalen McLean could have picked.
- [15:32]
B
Just. Yeah. I couldn't tell if it slipped off of his hand or, like, he was, like, a little. He was pressured, he moved, he reset, and he threw it, and it just, like. Yeah, it sailed on him right into Jayla McLean's chest. Yeah. Big thanks to our sponsor, BetterHelp, for partnering with us for this important conversation about mental health. This is Steve Smith here, former NFL wide receiver and host of the 89 show on YouTube. So having a counselor and working with BetterHelp, that gives you an opportunity to really start to unpack. But people don't understand when you unpack things, you also open up a box that you're not always sure what's inside. So I think that's why seeing a professional is extremely important. If you need someone to open up to, visit betterhelp. That's better. H E L p.com89 to get started.
- [16:24]
A
So I will say, I. I do think the. The thing when Ryan Day was asked earlier this spring about, like, what's Julian doing? Well, it's like, he was talking about command, I think, like, both on and off the field, right? Julian's just got his arms offense and knows what he's doing. And I thought you could see that just the difference between the number one quarterback and the number two quarterback of, like, this is what we do. I've got this. And it's still at the point to me where you can watch Julian singing do something. And then Tavian Sinclair does it next. And Julian sand just makes it look easy. And you can almost still see Tavian Sinclair sort of, like, thinking through it sometimes. Almost like Julian sand run to drill. It's like, boom. Like, here. Here's the handoff.
- [17:03]
B
Here's the read.
- [17:04]
A
There's the throw. Bang. And it's just, like, smooth. And you, like, Tavin Sinclair is like, a little bit more like, okay, I'm gonna fake the handoff. Now I'm gonna drop back. Now I'm gonna look. Now I'm gonna throw, which is one guy started a whole season, and one guy's never started. So. But. But, like, in terms of, hey, like, how close are they? Or what could. It's like. It just feels like there's a difference there in watching a practice. Do you think that's fair? I don't think it's unusual, but it's a reminder of, like, okay, like, how oh is. And it's like, no, there's a difference.
- [17:35]
B
There's a difference. I think, yes, I. I agree with that. I also think there's probably. There was actually like, a very specific thing that happened that I, I dropped a. A note about in our chat. The subscribers that I don't think I'll talk about here because I actually don't know if I'm allowed to talk in specifics that way. But Julian was the only one who did it. Like they were going through individual drills with the quarterbacks and like, Julian was like sort of on his own for a brief moment working on this one specific thing that I think is like part of the Arthur Smith offense and like no other quarterback was doing it, so. Which was like a reminder of like, he's the guy, he's. And like, I don't think anybody like was uncertain about that.
- [18:16]
A
Right.
- [18:16]
B
But if you only showed up for, at practice for 40 seconds and saw the two throws that Tavian Sinclair made to Nolan Batto and Nate Roberts, you could convince yourself he was a starting quarterback.
- [18:25]
A
Mm. I also thought, I thought there were a couple plays that were just like, you know, whatever you're reading it, like, what's the quarterback seeing what you're supposed to do? And I thought there were like two instances and, and I think this is just coaching the guy hard. But like, you know, when J R Smith like didn't call the timeout and, and LeBron like the, for the freestream of like LeBron being like, with his arms out, like, what are you doing? I thought I maybe saw like two of those with Ryan Day and Tavian Sinclair where Ryan Day is sort of like, like what, what like that was that. Why did you do. Why did you do Y. When. When X was open or whatever? And it's just like, oh, so you mean the, the second year player who's never started is as five star recruit is getting coached hard by the quarterback guru head coach? Like, yeah, he is. But also like there's just less of that. I think with Julian saying it doesn't mean it doesn't never happens. But I just, I. It's just a reminder, that's all. Yeah, just a little bit of reminder of like there's a difference here at the moment. Now when Tavian St. Clair starts getting more in game reps, who knows how big of a difference there? I mean the gap will certainly close just because a guy with a vast amount with 14 games, 14, 0, is a pretty big gap in experience, number of games that you've played. Right. If when it becomes like, okay, it's 19 sort of like three quarters of a game because Tavian Sinclair got the whole second half against Kent State, then we'll have a difference.
- [19:55]
B
Yeah.
- [19:55]
A
Just a reminder because we like to talk about Savion Sinclair. What'd you think of the outline?
- [20:03]
B
I. So it's hard to tell because I, I thought it was less of, like, a disoriented mess than it was in on Student Appreciation. Like, there were times in Student Appreciation. It's like, well, they can't run plays because. Because this offensive line isn't able to block anybody. I felt like that happened far less on Friday. I also think they, like, they weren't. They weren't live. They called it whiz tempo, which I guess is like something between full speed and the walkthrough. So it's hard to say. Like, there was one play in particular where, like, Quay Russell sort of like, knocked Carter low back and I think had he been going full speed, would have definitely gotten in for a sack, but he sort of like knocked Carter low back and then stopped. So it's, It's. It's hard to say. You know, part of me felt like, oh, Carter Lowe's having a little bit better practice than we saw the last time. And then as soon as I thought that Bo Atkinson. Yeah. Ran through him and knocked. Knocked him to the ground. So I, I don't know what to make of the offensive line. Day. I. The one. Honestly, it's more just like a personnel thing than like, sort of like anybody playing.
- [21:09]
A
Well,
- [21:12]
B
there were. There were a couple plays where Sam Greer was with the ones at right tackle instead of. Instead of Carter low, which I thought was interesting. Okay.
- [21:20]
A
Gave Van Sickle the right guard with the ones. Not a surprise. But. And then I just thought Ian Moore for, like. I don't know, I just thought, like, Ian Moore looked pretty good left tackle. I thought he.
- [21:30]
B
Yeah.
- [21:31]
A
Again, I don't think he was Kenyatta Jackson, who was on the bike for part of practice, but whatever. Like, you know, he's out there against the ones. He's out there against the best defensive ends that Ohio State has, but they're not quite hair on fire trying to get to the qb. But it just looks like. I just. I think it's the continued belief of, like, yeah, Ian more looks fine there. He looks like.
- [21:56]
B
Yep. Normal. Yeah, I thought. I thought the same thing. Yeah.
- [22:03]
A
Nate Roberts, tight end one continues, Right.
- [22:08]
B
Yeah. Mason Williams seems like he's. He's kind of right there, too. I'm trying to remember. I think maybe it was more often like when they were 11 personnel, which is one tight end, and the ones it was Nate Roberts. But then when they had two tight ends, it was probably Robertson and Williams first Williams. Williams popped out a little more to me than he did like any other time. He caught it. I think he caught two touchdowns, actually. They had like a red zone, seven on seven period. He caught two. I think he caught one during one of the team periods. I think the best tight end play I saw was actually from Brody Lennon. He threw a crazy block on like a screen pass to Chris Henry Jr. Just like they were.
- [22:47]
A
There weren't.
- [22:48]
B
They weren't in full pads. It was not a full contact practice. But he booked it out to the perimeter and I think got on a safety and like drove that guy into the ground and helped spring Chris for, for a nice gain. So that was, that was nice to see.
- [23:00]
A
Okay, first team receivers, right, Jeremiah Smith, Brandon Ennis and then Devin McEwen and Kyle Parker kind of like consistently rotating that. It feels like four starters for three spots. We have, we have a, we have a dis. We have a difference of opinion here because I'm double checking my notes. And there was a play where Brandon innis and Devin McEwen jumped off sides and so then they had to run. They immediately like, like Brandon and it's like, did one like he tilted his head back and looked at the sky.
- [23:33]
B
I was like, ah.
- [23:35]
A
And then Brandon ennis and Devin McEwen took out off running a lap. So then it's. The ones are still out there. And so they had to put two more receivers out there with the ones. And I thought I had written down that Philip Bell came in in the slot behind Brandon Ennis and Kyle Parker went out to the other to like the Z receiver spot where Devin McEwen had been. But you thought Brock Boyd came on the field there?
- [23:57]
B
I thought so, but I could be wrong. Yeah, I thought I saw him jogging over there to the outside to go line up. But again, I have bad eyesight. I wear glasses.
- [24:06]
A
I also overslept and missed the first five periods. So there's other things. I got a new phone. I don't know how to work it. It's making me feel like I'm 200 years old. I set my alarm, I might have turned it off and kept sleeping. It maybe didn't go off. It might have gone off with low volume because I don't understand my new phone. But we were allowed to be in Ohio Stadium at 8:30 on Friday morning and I did one of those. I feel too rested as I'm opening my eyes, jolt awake, look at the phone. And it was 8:30. It was the minute that I was supposed to be walking into Ohio Stadium. I was sitting up in my bed, breaking out in a cold sweat. So thanks for covering me, Philly. Billy.
- [25:01]
B
Sure. Yeah, I was there. I was the. Actually, I was the first media member in there.
- [25:06]
A
Could anything define this partnership more than that revelation?
- [25:13]
B
It was a lot of pressure, though, because I had to establish the media seating area because we all sort of like, end up huddling together. Although today was different because we were on the sunny side of the stadium. And you very smartly went and sat on the shady side of the stadium, but, like, wherever I sat down, established the media seating area. And I didn't know, like, should I be more in the middle? Should I be closer to the south stands? What row should I sit in? It was a lot of pressure.
- [25:35]
A
If I had sat on the sunny side of the stadium, I would look like a tomato right now. So I stayed because I did not. I forgot to put on sunblock. It feels like a top four. And then there is like. Does it. Chris Henry Jr. And Brock Boyd. We've talked about them a lot. They're clearly out there, like, regularly with the twos. Yeah, I don't know that they're out there a ton with the ones. Like, it does. It doesn't feel. It feels like a pretty decent divide, just the way the snaps are distributed between those top four and then who's ever next, which is Chris Henry Jr. Brock Boyd, Philip Bell, probably as the. The next three. But it's.
- [26:17]
B
I would say that. That's right. Yeah. Like the, The. If you. If you say the first team receivers are the four guys, the second team receivers, I think are absolutely Chris Henry at X, Brock Boyd at Z, and Philip Bell on the slot. Okay.
- [26:31]
A
And again, I was saying this. I was just on. On the radio a second ago. It's just like Chris Henry JR to me is like Jeremiah Smith's stunt double. It's like, can you stay? You could not pick a better stunt double for Jeremiah Smith. And there are things where they run something with the ones and Jeremiah Smith does it. And then it was one of the good. I think what you mentioned, like, there's like. Like a nice throw over the middle of Chris Henry Jr. And it's like that was. That was a Jeremiah Smith replication. There's no difference on that play between what Jeremiah Smith would have done to a defense and what Chris Henry Jr. Did to a defense. And so like those. That upside of Chris Henry Jr. But it does just feel like he's the second string X. He's the second string X. It doesn't mean he's never going to be on the field with Jeremiah Smith, but it's not at all like, oh, he's working in a little bit instead of Kyle Parker or Devin McEwen. Like, oh, look, they're out with the ones. And it's Innis Smith and Henry or it's Innis Smith and Boyd. Like, I don't think we saw that for a single snap, which is. Doesn't mean it never happens. Maybe it happened while I was asleep, but it's just like there is. There does appear here at the end of spring to be a divide. And as we have talked a lot about Brock Boyd, Chris Henry Jr. Just got his black stripe off. We've talked a lot about Chris Henry Jr. I think it's worth fans understanding there's kind of a line in the sand. It feels like for now, I, I.
- [28:01]
B
But I think the for now is important because I think, I think Chris and Jeremiah can play together, and I think they eventually will play together. I'm not calling my shot and saying Chris Henry JR Is going to be the starting Z, but I think because they want to move Jeremiah around and because I think he can kind of play anywhere, that opens up the door to get Chris onto the field with him. And I just thought, like, I thought he looked really good. Chris Henry Jr. Did on. On Friday. He did not do a whole lot when we got to watch last time. He definitely was. Was flashing a little bit on on Friday. And, like, honestly, like, what? Like, I'm not, I'm not trying to, like, to pour water on the Brock Boyd hype train, but, like, we've watched two practices and, like, he hasn't really done anything. So if you want to, like, if you wonder, like, why isn't it talking about Brock? Like, I don't. I'm sure he caught a pass today during some of the team stuff, but I don't, I don't recall it happening. Chris caught a couple and looked pretty good doing it, so. And guys like, whatever, you know, if Brock Boyd is in this situation, he wouldn't be the first freshman to, like, start really hot in spring, hit a little above a wall and try to fight his way through it. That's. That's perfectly normal. But it seems like maybe this is me spitballing in one man's opinion, like, maybe Brock Boyd kind of hit the ground running out of spring and now is fighting through the wall, and Chris Henry Jr. Was fighting through the wall in the beginning of the spring and now is on the other side.
- [29:21]
A
If Brock Boyd would have caught the ball from Tavian Sinclair. That walk on Nolan Bowdo caught from Tavian Sinclair. They would have broken in on the local news in Columbus, right?
- [29:32]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [29:33]
A
So it's just like, you know, and, and we're conveying information while not at all trying to convey the fact that, like, this is all the information. This is a snapshot. We got to watch the first hour practice for the first two practices in the middle of March. We're going to watch the spring game on Saturday, and we got to take in this whole thing on Friday and practice 14. But they're, you know. So is there anything else else about the offense? Like, running back is just hard because there's no running backs that are playing and they're not really. I mean, they weren't, you know, everything a running back does, it's like, well, I don't know. That guy, he could have been tackled
- [30:12]
B
if we were really playing football here. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to say, right? Yeah. I thought the, the Student Appreciation Day was a little more instructive for running baskets because you. You were actually being tackled. They weren't tackling on Friday, Turbo Rogers and Legend Bay were out. So, like, I would not expect to see either one of them at the spring game on Saturday. But, yeah, otherwise, I don't. I don't know that I had many running back takeaways. Okay.
- [30:41]
A
Earl Little was not participating in practice that we saw.
- [30:46]
B
I didn't see him in the building.
- [30:47]
A
Yeah, Jay Timmons was not participating in practice that we saw.
- [30:53]
B
He was. He was in the building, but not practically. He was off to the side with the other her guys. Yeah.
- [30:57]
A
We believe that those are, as we understand it, the likely starting star nickel defensive back and the second team start nickel defensive back. So they weren't out there. So the result is what we saw a lot of was Ohio State coming out. I would say it was maybe almost 50, 50. There's like, there was a lot of. A lot of the team periods with the red zone or third down. Right. It wasn't like just, hey, it's first and 10 from the 25, and here's where. But I thought it was like 50, 50 of those two corners and then maybe three linebackers in the game. And then when there's two corners out there, it's Devin Sanchez and Jermaine Matthews as the outside corners. Devin Sanchez, I don't know if every single snap, but more often than not, the boundary corner that Davis and Igmanosin played last year and Jermaine Matthews the field corner. And then they would, when they went to five DBs, it was two deep safeties. And then the three guys were Devin Sanchez at boundary corner, Dominic Kelly at field corner, and Jermaine Matthews in the slot. And that doesn't mean that that's what they're going to line up in on first down against Texas because Earl Little and Jay Timmons will be back by then. But we saw a lot of it.
- [32:20]
B
Yeah.
- [32:20]
A
On Friday and it just shoots an arrow into your brain of like, man, I wonder how much of this we might see during the season. So what did you think of that alignment and how effective it was on Friday and what do you think it might look like in the fall?
- [32:39]
B
I thought it looked good. I, I really like Jermaine Matthews in the slot. Like, the best game Jermaine Matthews played last year was when he played nickel against Illinois. So I'm, I think I could probably be convinced rather easily that maybe Jermaine Matthews is more of a, of a, of that than he is an outside corner. They're a little of it all does complicate it because I like, he's very much a factor there, obviously. So I don't know if this is more of like a passing down look potentially for Ohio State than it would be like ever. Their, their true base defense. But you like the look of it. The thing last year was like Lorenzo Styles was obviously the starting nickel. Like, they didn't really have any nickel depths. They almost immediately had to go to Jermaine Matthews. This year they have, they have more because you have her a little. You have Jay Timmons. So like, you're kind of like, I wonder if only Earl Little was out and Jay Timmons was available with. Jay Timmons have been playing with the ones or where they have gone through this. Look. I don't know. I like. It's kind of 50. It's kind of 50, 50 for me. But it did feel like sort of like the only guys were playing that position in like all practice were Jermaine Matthews and Miles Lockhart. So like they're, they're, they're pretty thin there right now with, with Little and Timmins out. So I liked it. Yeah, I thought, I thought it was good. I thought, I thought again, like, Devin Sanchez had a nice practice. Jermaine got his hands on a couple of passes. So it's all good. Yeah, Like, I don't, it is very interesting. Like, there's just not a lot of, there's not a ton of ball production for Jermaine Matthews, sort of in his career, he's been a fine corner, but he tends to have more of it when he's playing inside, which it's a small sample size, so maybe you can make too much of it, but it's certainly noticeable.
- [34:24]
A
It's. And Dominic Kelly looks good, doesn't he?
- [34:26]
B
Yeah.
- [34:27]
A
Dominican is on the field as an outside corner.
- [34:29]
B
Sanchez and Kelly out there. Yeah. Two long corners, man.
- [34:33]
A
I mean, it just, they just look the part.
- [34:37]
B
Yeah.
- [34:37]
A
It's like, yep, that's what you want.
- [34:40]
B
I thought Jordan Thomas had a nice practice, too. He was with the twos, but I thought he had a nice practice.
- [34:44]
A
Okay. Our guy.
- [34:46]
B
Yeah.
- [34:47]
A
You know, Inky Jones a lot around with the twos.
- [34:51]
B
Yeah. The outside corners with the twos were with the. So, like, the, the base corner alignment with the Twos was, or No, I guess it was maybe Inky and Cam Calhoun were kind of rotating. And then Jordan Thomas was also out there and Miles Lockhart. Okay.
- [35:08]
A
I just wonder Jordan Hancock, when he played that, that nickel corner, nickel safety, star position in 20, 24, 6, 1, 1, 95. And he could play it. They could leave him on the field. He could play it against the pass, he could play it against the run. He came out of the cornerback room. He covers like a corner. But I think they trusted him enough in run support to leave him on the field all the time. Right. Jermaine Matthews, 511, 190. I just. He's their best coverage option in the slot. I, I, we'll see where Earl Little and J Get that's. He's listed at 5:11. Yeah. So I, I just, I. Do you. Would you definitively say Jermaine Matthews is their best. Look, you had to look. You didn't believe me. You're like, he might be looking at the wrong seven. You might have been looking at. Maybe he's looking at Philip Bell. You wondered if I was. No, no, that's not what you mean. You mean I've done it before. You can say it. Like, you can, you can try to be magnanimous. You're like, it's okay. I slept through practice. Do you definitively believe Jermaine Matthews is their best coverage option in the slot? Or do you think Earl Little or Jay Timmons could be that?
- [36:24]
B
No, I think it's Jermaine.
- [36:26]
A
So then it just makes me curious of, like, can he get to a point as a run defender? As in every down, like, inside, you know, in the box? Like, just could he get to that point where you're like, yeah, no, we're good. You can run it. Jermaine Matthews on first down, he'll make a tackle, put his head in there, and then we'll play these guys on the outside and that's it. And it doesn't mean that that's like, that's not the end of Earl Little. Well, I guess Earl Little is getting 11 snaps in 20, 26. That's not what that means. But we just saw it so much on Friday and it just looks good.
- [36:57]
B
Yeah, no, I, I think it's, it's less about. Well, one of these things has to come at the expense of the other. I, I just think it, it pushes us further down the packaging. Some stuff road. And the matchups kind of road. It's like, depends on who you're playing week to week. Like, you probably don't want your Matthews playing nickel against Iowa. Right. But maybe you do want him playing nickel against Oregon kind of thing. And I can because. And then like Earl Little so versatile that it's like he could rotate at any of the three or start at any of the three safety spots. So it's like you're not eliminating his role entirely. There's just like it's. I think it's better to have all these sort of moving pieces and possibilities in the back of the other defense than, Than not. So it doesn't have to be like a make your choice nowity. I think it's going to be a little or Jermaine Matthews kind of conversation
- [37:48]
A
when Dominic Kelly's on the field at outside corner. The second year player, the transfer from Georgia, he looks like a starter. There's not like, I don't know about this guy. So, so they can get there. Like, I was just trying to run through depth charts of opponents they play Oregon, right? Play Oregon this year.
- [38:08]
B
They do play Oregon. Yeah. November 7th.
- [38:12]
A
See, here we are again. Doug's like, does Ohio State play Oregon? And Bill's like, I know the date.
- [38:17]
B
We were just talking about it on Thursday night.
- [38:19]
A
That's how I remembered Evan Stewart, Takori and more. Jeremiah McClellan as like the three probable starting receivers for Oregon. Like that might be. You might put out the back signal for Devin Sanchez, Dominic Kelly and Jermaine Matthews in that game.
- [38:38]
B
Yes, I think you could.
- [38:40]
A
So it's interesting. And then the deep safeties, free safety a little bit deeper. Strong safety a little bit more in the box, somewhat interchangeable, but feels like the ones Jeremiah, excuse me. Jayla McLean at Strong, Terry Moore at the Duke, transfer at free Safety. It's not like Leroy Roker never was with the Ones, but definitely more often than not it was Mora and McLean.
- [39:05]
B
Yeah. Which is kind of the first time I think we. We've seen that. I know Terry Moore, I think, was kind of getting his feet under him early. The Student Appreciation Day maybe was like kind of in a rotation with the Ones at times, but it did. Yeah. Most of the time he looked out there with the first defense, it was Terry Moore back there. So again, like, I think that's what we talked about before. Like, they have four safeties. They believe in Jalen McLean, Terry Moore, Leroy Roker or Little. I think all that remains true and I think all four of those guys are going to be play. But for this particular day, Terry Moore was back there a lot.
- [39:38]
A
And if you like, if you were to watch, just watch today and be like, oh, who's going to start a free safety like Terry Moore?
- [39:44]
B
Terry Moore.
- [39:44]
A
It wouldn't have been like, I don't know, could go like, based off. They'd be like Terry Moore. I think the most definitive thing at linebacker is that Peyton Pierce is the starting mic and Garrett Stover is the backup mic.
- [39:57]
B
Yep. I think that's pretty well locked in. When the offense was doing 12 personnel with two tight ends, the defense went to three linebackers and Christian Allegro, like bumped up to the line of scrimmage and TJ Alford came in to play Will alongside Peyton Pierce. But then once it switched back to 11 personnel, Alfred went off the field and Allegro stayed on and backed up to Will. So I thought that was interesting. I think Alfred did get a little. Did Alfred got a little bit of run, I think, as. As the Will with the first team. But Allegro got more of it, I believe. And then it felt like Alfred was more of like the sub package guy than Allegro was and that.
- [40:39]
A
But then Allegro is like really moving like sort of between two different positions. And again, just discussion of like filling the Arvell Reese type of role. Can you be a true linebacker? Can you be up on the line of scrimmage? Like, he's just. I was. I, I've. I've said on an earlier show, like, I'm just not exactly sure about Christian Allegro's role and exactly what it's going to look like. And we have to keep in mind, of course, of course, of that Riley Pettigon is out for the spring, but. And that guy's on the field with the ones constantly in a two different positions and it's like, okay, like I. He's not going away.
- [41:12]
B
No, he's not. I. I think. I don't know. Like, maybe it's just that he's so much bigger than everybody else in the linebacker, which is like, yeah, that guy should be on the field. He's huge. Huge kind of thing. So. And there have been moments like that We've seen other times in camp where just like, he looks good in space. There's good stuff. Like on the Wisconsin tape that, that shows you why Ohio State brought him in here. So, like, I don't know. I'm interested to see where Alfred goes. It does. It does feel like he's like, making a little bit of a push. So we'll see. That'll continue to play out. And then also you have to reinsert rally better John to the conversation in the summer, too. So I don't like to your point. I think the only things that seem actually, I guess even if you say like Riley maybe the only thing that seems certain is Peyton Pierce is a starting mic and then everything else is probably up for. For some debate and some competition as we move into the summer.
- [42:03]
A
Defensive line, the thing that struck me the most, and again, Kenyatta Jackson was. Was in the practice and then wasn't. But it felt like Bo Atkinson was with the ones a lot at the other defensive end spot.
- [42:18]
B
Yes. And someone. I. I did not clock this when we were talking to the offensive lineman earlier this week, but a couple people in the chat did. Like, when defensive or offensive linemers are like, running through the guys they go against. Like, they said Bo Atkinson's name a lot. So I don't know. Again, I am, I am. I'm both curious about. About what's happening here. I don't know exactly what's going to happen with him, but I do. And so it's just whatever. They're small practice windows. I. I feel like you notice him a little bit more. Maybe that's just because the offensive line doesn't have its starters out there, but he's definitely out there a lot and he's definitely out there a lot with the ones.
- [42:58]
A
Like again, my. It feels like at edge and guys rotate in, but that is like Kenyatta Jackson, Bo Atkinson and Quay Russo are kind of like the ones. And it sort of feels like episatanelay and Zion Grady are the twos and it doesn't. Like you said, you. You saw Zion with the ones that at least some of the time.
- [43:22]
B
Yeah, I saw Zion with the one some of the time. And I also, I, I would just want to Factor in the fact that like Zion missed some time. It didn't feel like he was on like any kind of pitch count on on Friday. Like he was a full participant in practice. But maybe the time that he has missed is just sort of. He's like making up for it and not running with the ones every single play. But I just, I. There were different iterations, I think, of. Of first team and second team and I think you saw sort of like guys you would consider kind of like the core, eight or nine tackle and end kind of interchangeable. First and second team. Not, not 50, 50 like across the board. I think there's some delineation, but I would still say like if you want to talk starters, guys who are going to play meaningful snaps, I would still include Zion Grady in that group.
- [44:09]
A
Episatanolite is noticeable to me every time we've been in there. It's fast as a pass rusher and, and I've. We've. We, you know, I. Whatever hit some moves like toolbox move. The first time we saw him today, he had a, like a pass rush where he just like stuck the long arm like in the neck of the right tackle and drove the right tackle back into the quarterback. Like pure power. And it was just like. And that guy looks, he looks dangerous when he's in his stance at the line of scrimmage. He looks like a sprinter in the blocks. The start of the 100 yard dash. Like I am coming to destroy you on this pass rush. And I don't know what that means. I don't know what he's like as a run defender.
- [44:56]
B
Right.
- [44:56]
A
Like we talked about, like Larry Johnson talked about Quay Russo setting the edge. And we know how good Kenyatta Jackson is against the run and Bo Atkinson's played a lot of football. But I just think maybe EPI's gonna be in there on some like third down pass rush moments because he looks like he can do it.
- [45:12]
B
I kind of think he will be too. He is. I think. I can't remember if I said this on one of these shows or one of our substack shows, but. Clever. Whatever the number of practices we've watched since the start of camp last year, I want to say it's like six or seven at this point. He. You notice them every time. Yeah. So that I, I think it has to count for something. They have a lot of depth there. I think they're still. I don't know if they're trying to figure out what they have. I think maybe they're trying to figure out situations for guys that like to really thrive and make sure they're putting in the best chances, best positions to succeed. But it definitely feels like Epic could be a weapon and some in some passing down packages. And I thought Kari Wilder flashed a little bit too. He had a really good play. He was with the twos, like, he was a lot with the threes. But on this play I'm talking about, he was with the twos and they ran a quarterback run play with Tavian Sinclair like his own read and Tavian kept it and got on the edge. And Kari Wilder, like played it perfectly to make Tavian keep it and then close like lightning quick to make it like the tackle. He didn't tackle him because they weren't live, but like it was sort of like textbook. Here's how defensive end is supposed to play his own read in space and like he shut it down by himself. And then I thought he looked good rushing the passer too. He's. He's got that. That kind of quick first step as well. So good looking young players at defensive end. I.
- [46:41]
A
There was definitely a play where it's like they snapped it and was like, oh, that plays over Carrie Waters in the backfield.
- [46:45]
B
Yeah, yeah. There was one of those from Sincere Johnson, too. There's like a run. There was a run play and Sincere Johnson practically took the hand off.
- [46:55]
A
Did that feel like Peyton Pierce, Garrett stover, sincere Johnson, 1, 2, 3 at middle linebacker?
- [47:00]
B
That's what it sounds like.
- [47:00]
A
Yeah. Yeah, pretty good. And then the defensive tackles, it feels like it. It. There's not much of a difference between the top, like, they're sometimes the ones and the twos. I mean, they're just interchangeable.
- [47:16]
B
Yeah.
- [47:16]
A
With Edric Houston, Will Smith Jr. John Walker and James Smith. It feels like to me, more often than not, Walker and Smith are together. Walker and James Smith as the two transfers. John Walker from Central Florida, James Smith from Alabama are often a pair. And the two returners, Edward Houston and Will Smith Jr. Are often together and they're a pair. And then I definitely saw like Jason Moore is like that fifth tackle. I saw him in with the ones at least on a couple snaps. So if Larry Johnson. I mean, not if Larry Johnson. Larry Johnson said the other day, five tackles, six ends is kind of what he wants. I think with what we've talked about here, it feels like that's like, that's what he's putting out on the field with the way they're moving guys in and out right now that we see five real Tackles and six real ends.
- [47:59]
B
Yep, that's what it seemed like to me as well. And one other thing that jumped out to me with the defensive tackles just because, like, in all the practices we've seen, we've. We've not seen a lot of true freshmen playing with the second team defensive line. Kari Wilder did a little bit on Friday, but then there was also a couple of plays and I don't know, maybe like someone's chin strap popped or the shoe was untied or something. But Damari Simeon, freshman defensive tackle, got a couple of plays as a second team defensive lineman. I think he was playing next to Edric Houston, if I'm not mistaken. So it was just one of those things like, who's number 90? You're, like looking at your sheet because you haven't seen him out there before. But I can't say that I like, watched the full, full play from his perspective to tell you what he did, but I just thought it was interesting that he was out there. If you're like, trying to. I know some people have asked, like, hey, are the freshman defensive tackles doing anything? It's like, why? I'm not really in a position to tell you that, but I. If you want to grab onto something that jumped out to me that Larry Simeon was playing a little bit. Okay.
- [48:56]
A
Anything else about the defense?
- [49:01]
B
Second. Second deep safety group was. Was Blame Bradford and I don't have my notes. Broker. Broker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, it's like, that's first. First deep safety tandem, Jayla McLean. Terry Moore looks pretty good. Second safety tandem, Leroy Roker, blood. Bradford looks pretty good.
- [49:26]
A
Yeah. Good at safety.
- [49:29]
B
Yeah.
- [49:32]
A
So, yeah, I mean, I, I would say the number one thing for me is just the takeaway of what those three corners look like together when they're on the field with Sanchez. And Sanchez just looks like a dude. Right. Sanchez is the boundary corner. He's often then matched up with that. With Jeremiah Smith, that bigger, more physical X receiver that sometimes you wind up in kind of on an island with that guy at times, if you can handle it. And like, we. There have been these little clips of Devin Sanchez and Jeremiah Smith going at each other at practice. And that's why, because I think they're just. They're just like, I don't know, Devin Sanchez and Jeremiah Smith probably lined up across each other 500 times this spring.
- [50:11]
B
Yeah, that's a. I mean, there's obviously been great corners and great receivers at Ohio State. Again, I wonder, like, if you can talk to someone who's been in the building for a while where the matchup of those two against each other in practice might rank up in some of the better matchups you've seen. Yeah.
- [50:26]
A
Okay. We'll be at the spring game on Saturday. We will do, even if they play four plays, we'll do two post game shows. Oh, we'll be on YouTube like pretty soon after the game, we might go home rather than try to do it in the stadium. And we want to, we want to do a, a YouTube show here on this podcast feed live on YouTube, give you the quick hits that really popped off the spring game. And then we're going to go to our substack, Bill and Doug osu.substack.com and go longer, go deeper, take questions from people to continue that conversation. We can kind of wrap up spring overall, look ahead a little bit, but you know, we'll give you, we'll give you 30 or so on the YouTube channel and then we'll go at least another hour, I would imagine, for the sickos who, who want nine hours of content off the spring game because those are our people.
- [51:22]
B
Those are our people. Yeah. Hopefully the weather changes and we get in like, we get a full game and we'll have lots to talk about. Yeah.
- [51:28]
A
All right, thanks you guys for following along and listening and watching all spring. We're going to continue coverage into the off season. We'll have an around the shoe on Monday is the plan to like have like another final wrap on the spring game and then the NFL draft is next week. We will have discussions around that. Four Buckeyes going in the top 10, top 12, top 15, whatever that is. On our substack show next Wednesday we will do a thing that we started doing back@cleveland.com where we run through like kind of a mock draft and we ring the bell when we think a guy's going to get picked and we'll predict where all of these Ohio State guys, what, what pick they're gonna go. So we'd invite you to join us there, but like, again, we're like, we're gonna keep going here on this YouTube channel, this podcast feed. We're gonna keep writing and keep putting out two shows a week, most weeks over on Substack. And you know, ball never sleeps.
- [52:23]
B
It doesn't sleep. Doesn't. No, it'll be, you know, no spring portal. So that'll, that'll change the tenor of the off season a little bit, I think, I think in a good way. But there'll be a lot to get into going off a spring ball. We're not going anywhere. Yeah. Sorry. We're not going. Sorry.
- [52:38]
A
No.
- [52:39]
B
All right.
- [52:40]
A
Thanks to you guys for being here. For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lamoris, and that was the Bill and Doug Show.