Indiana destroys Oregon 56-22 in College Football Playoff semi; is Cignetti's monster unstoppable?

Summary

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The Bill and Doug Show: Ohio State Football Talk

Episode Title: Indiana destroys Oregon 56-22 in College Football Playoff Semi; is Cignetti's monster unstoppable?
Date: January 10, 2026
Hosts: Doug Lesmerises ("Doug Lam Reese") & Bill Landis
Theme: Reaction and analysis after Indiana's stunning 56-22 blowout of Oregon in the College Football Playoff semifinal, and broader implications for Ohio State, the Big Ten, the playoff, and college football's evolving landscape.

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Overview:

This episode recaps Indiana’s dominant playoff win over Oregon ("a complete dismantling"), dives deep on whether Kurt Cignetti’s Hoosiers have built a modern super team, discusses the changing nature of roster building in college football, and explores ramifications for Ohio State—and college football fans’ changing relationship with the sport. All presented with the usual mix of wit, fandom, and insight by Doug and Bill.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Indiana’s Win as a Coaching Masterclass

• Cignetti’s Ascension:
  • The hosts marvel at what Indiana has accomplished in such short order under Kurt Cignetti, seeing it as potentially “the greatest example of coaching in the modern history of college football.” (01:38)
  • "It's like turning around Alabama, but it's...different. Given the expediency with which this has happened, I don't know you could point to something else and say that was better." – Doug (02:07)
• Program Fit or Portable Success?
  • Debate: Is Cignetti’s model portable to any Power 4 school, or dependent on Indiana’s unique situation?
  • Bill: "He got Indiana to believe in itself as a football operation very quickly and invest...but it’s not like they went out and added the 15 best and most expensive transfers.” (03:39)
• The staff’s continuity and a special GM-style approach ("eye for talent") drew comparison to NFL teams and Dabo-era Clemson.

2. Big Picture: Playoff Symmetry and Pac-12 Eulogy

• Poetic Cycles:
  • Doug jokes about the intertwined fates of Ohio State, Indiana, Oregon, and national championship matchups over recent years.
  • "This is poetry...Indiana is probably going to win both seasons. Oregon loses to one team, the national champ...there is some symmetry here, right?" (05:23)
• Pac-12 Decline:
  • "The Pac 12 doesn’t exist anymore…Let’s drop the elbow." – Doug
• Rose Bowl Twitter shade at Oregon was noted for “double-meaning.” (05:02)

3. Oregon’s Struggles Under Dan Lanning

• Oregon Flatlining in Crunch Time:
  • Two straight years of being “non-competitive” in the Playoff, even after strong regular seasons.
  • "But then when you play a good team and it really matters, you lose. It’s like, well, yeah, we earned the right to lose that game, right? But these are two tough ones for Oregon and Dan Lanning, are they not?" – Doug (10:11)
  • Lanning compared to "early Ryan Day" as a coach with great records, but still learning (12:19)
• Searching for What's Missing:
  • Injuries cited but no single gaping flaw; focus turns to coaching evolution and inexperience in big games.
• Roster Building:
  • Oregon as a ‘middle ground’ model between heavy portal use and traditional high school classes.
• Oregon’s Future:
  • Dante Moore’s NFL decision
  • In-house coordinator promotions signal ‘identity over outside ideas’

4. Is Indiana a ‘Super Team’?

• Talent vs. Production:
  • Indiana does not have blue-chip stars: "They sort of defy everything you’d expect from a super team...Indiana doesn’t have any [five-stars]." – Bill (20:23)
  • Yet their production is compared to legendary LSU (2019, Joe Burrow), with Fernando Mendoza likened to Burrow and Cam Newton (21:17)
• Sustainability:
  • "Of course there's a little bit of a question when the JMU guys are gone, but you see the way Indiana's working the portal...I don't think they're going away." – Doug (34:38)
  • Only six top-30 Indiana players transferred from JMU: “It's not the whole team.” (36:21-36:54)
• Continuity & Coaching:
  • Doug and Bill repeatedly highlight the value of ten-year relationships among staff, and the uniquely stable structure that makes Indiana’s play so precise.
  • Compared to Dabo/Clemson’s systems sustained by staff loyalty and clear identity (29:41)

5. Playoff & National Implications

• Is This the Greatest Team/Season Ever?
  • If Indiana wins it all, especially with a potential 16-0 finish, the season merits "greatest ever" discussion—made more remarkable because it’s Indiana. (25:32)
  • "If this is 16-0…you're in the conversation for sure." – Doug (25:32)
• Big Ten Supremacy:
  • Three straight national titles likely from Big Ten teams (Michigan '23, Ohio State '24, Indiana '25)
• Future Roster-Building
  • The age/experience advantage is real; the Big Ten has won by being “old”—either by retaining players (like OSU, Michigan) or taking mature transfers (Indiana). (57:14)

6. What Does This Mean for Ohio State?

• OSU’s Near Misses:
  • Both teams that beat Ohio State (Indiana and Miami) are in the title game.
  • Should OSU fans feel better, or more frustrated? Bill: "I would imagine it's more frustrating than anything. They were kind of right there. But I don't think that should make you feel better." (47:17–48:09)
• Perspective Shift:
  • Doug’s analogy: OSU fans thought it was their story; in retrospect, “It’s Indiana’s story the whole time.” (51:07)
  • "I don’t feel like Indiana stole OSU’s championship. It feels to me like this is Indiana’s championship." – Doug (52:03)
• Host Self-Reflection:
  • Both admit being “slow on the uptake” to acknowledge Indiana as the nation’s clear best team till late in the year. (56:29)
• “Super Team” & Resilience:
  • Indiana had three near-losses to Big Ten teams (Iowa, Penn State, Ohio State) but found a way—sometimes it’s just your year. (23:53, 53:05)

7. The Future of College Football Fandom & Roster Building

• The End of Homegrown Roster Ideals?
  • Fans must adjust; winning isn’t about ‘my guy,’ but ‘the best guy’—portal or not.
  • Doug: “You shouldn’t want the homegrown guy more just because he’s homegrown…Build the best roster…It’s a very difficult thing for fans.” (60:59)
• Emotional Attachment:
  • Losing with strangers hurts; winning with strangers is fun.
  • “If your team wins the way Indiana wins, then I don't think fans will care all that much. But if you don't, I wonder if the level of like, emotional investment might lessen—even the slightest bit.” – Bill (63:36)
• Portal Fatigue:
  • Both lament the 2-week grind of portal rumors and urge fans: "Maybe check back when it's over and see how it went...We free you." (67:07, 68:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Indiana’s transformation:
  "This is the greatest example of coaching in the modern history of college football?"

  • Doug (01:38)

• On Dan Lanning/Oregon’s struggle:
  "This is two years in a row where they've been non-competitive in huge games. That's not great."

  • Bill (12:17)

• On Indiana’s “super team” status:
  "Even a super team was nearly a three-loss team in the mighty Big Ten..."

  • Doug (24:07)

• On changing the fan experience:
  "It is a very difficult thing for fans, because you want to value your guys more...But actually, just get the good player."

  • Doug (61:00)

• On college football’s portable portal era:
  "Don't be Indiana. Don't try to be Indiana. You'll just drive yourself crazy, because you can't be this. But you can learn from Indiana."

  • Doug (60:28)

• On the “team of destiny” realization:
  "Sometimes you run into the team of destiny, right? And I think that's maybe what happened to Ohio State."

  • Bill (53:05)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:38 – Opening reaction to Indiana’s dismantling of Oregon; Cignetti’s coaching legacy
• 03:39 – Could Cignetti have succeeded anywhere?
• 05:23 – Symmetry in playoff matchups among Indiana, Ohio State, Oregon
• 10:11 – Oregon's issues in big games under Dan Lanning
• 15:11 – Oregon’s off-field and roster-building plans
• 20:23 – Indiana as a “super team” despite not having blue-chip recruits
• 25:32 – Indiana’s dominance, historic season context
• 29:41 – Staff continuity’s impact (comparing Indiana to Clemson)
• 34:38 – Sustainability of Indiana’s success post-JMU transfers
• 41:28 – Indiana's touchdown drives and offensive performance vs Oregon
• 46:46 – Shifting focus: what this means for Ohio State’s season and fans
• 51:07 – “It’s Indiana’s story, not Ohio State’s”
• 63:36 – How roster fluidity might affect fans’ emotional attachment
• 67:07 – Portal coverage fatigue and advice to fans
• 70:29 – Noting this was the first playoff semi to lack drama in the 12-team era

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Tone & Style

• Lively, irreverent, and self-aware; mix of analytics, coaching insight, humor, and empathy for fans.
• Frequent interplay, self-deprecation ("we're terrible at picking"), and transparent positioning as Ohio State-centered—but with respect for the sport.
• Commitment to realism about where the sport is headed and what fans should expect or let go.

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Summary

This episode captures the shock and awe of Indiana’s continued dominance—a team built on continuity, developmental coaching, smart portal acquisitions, and experience. Doug and Bill situate Indiana’s success as both a unique one-off ("don't try to be Indiana!") and a signpost for the evolving college football world, where “old” beats “young” and roster origins matter less than production.

The hosts struggle in real time to reconcile old-school fan expectations with new-school roster reality. They detail Oregon’s frustrations, Indiana’s unsustainable-yet-real formula, implications for Ohio State’s program-building, and what all of it says about where college football is heading.

Through it all, Bill and Doug keep the focus where it belongs: on making sense of a sport that just crowned Indiana as the next unstoppable force—and on the fans, whose expectations, passions, and pain are evolving just as quickly as the game on the field.

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Transcript

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[Doug Lam Reese]

Why?

[Bill Landis]

What's happening?

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[Doug Lam Reese]

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[Doug Lam Reese]

That was exhausting. Doug Lam Reese and Bill Landis back on the Bill and Doug Show. Thanks for joining us. Kurt Zetti and the NA Hoosiers move on to the national championship game against Miami. A complete dismantling of the Oregon Ducks. Is this the greatest example of coaching in the modern history of college football?

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, probably. I don't like. What else would you even put up there?

[Doug Lam Reese]

I mean it's like turning around Alabama, but it's like.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, it was Alabama, right? They had like previous success under like, like Bear Bryant existed. Right. So. Yeah. And they won national championships like when the 90s or whatever. Right. So I think given like the expediency with which this has happened, I don't, I don't know that you could point to something else and say that was better.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Is. Are we in a situation if Kurt Signetti in Indiana are. They're doing this, right? Kurt Signetti, the staff that he brought, Bryant Haynes on the defensive side And Mike Shanahan on the offensive side. So important to what they're doing. Been with Kurt Signetti for a decade or so. Decade and. And the way that they've won at every stop, last being James Madison. Could Kurt Signetti literally have done this anywhere? If he had been hired at Louisville, if he had been hired at Kentucky, if he had been hired at Colorado instead of Deion Sanders, if he had been hired at Michigan State, if he had been hired at Boston College, would that team be playing for the national championship? Because Kurt Signetti would have brought the players from JMU and he would have brought this staff, and he would have kept the best of whatever was at those places. Power, power for schools. Could he lit. If he can do it in Indiana, If I can do it there, I'll do it literally anywhere. Is that what we're talking about?

[Kurt Zetti]

I mean, I think I. I feel compelled to say yes because it's. He. He definitely got Indiana to believe in itself as a football operation very quickly and invest in the sport differently than it had before. But it's not like they went out and added the 15 best and most expensive transfers to the roster. Right. They were still taking guys from Ohio and, like, on this team, like Kent. Kent State. Right? Yep. There's, like, a Western Kentucky guy on. On the team. Right. So I think their eye for scouting there was a really good story on ESPN this morning by Adam Rittenberg. Did you read it about how they go about scouting with, like, Sig top of the operation as a general manager and head coach? It was. It was good. It was interesting. So I think they would have just brought that eye for talent anywhere and probably done this because they're also doing it in the league that maybe has the least upward mobility. Right? Like, yeah, like, to break through the top of the Big Ten in two years is ridiculous. I think they definitely could have done it in the ACC, in the Big 12. I guess doing it in the SEC maybe would have been about as difficult as doing in the Big Ten, but, yeah, I think they probably would have done this anywhere.

[Doug Lam Reese]

You know, it's too late for Dan Landing. He should have taken the Alabama job while he had the chance, and you would have a very. It'd be an easier path to the natty than trying to deal with it.

[Kurt Zetti]

Did you see, by the way, the Rose Bowl Twitter account? I think around halftime, maybe tweet it. Tweeted this looks familiar. And they absolutely meant Indiana winning by a lot because Indiana beat Alabama by a lot in the Rose Bowl. I don't think. Think they understood the double meaning.

[Doug Lam Reese]

So this is, it's like they're like, ah, the Pac 12 doesn't exist anymore. Let's go all in. Let's drop the elbow. Can I please call out Mario in the YouTube chat and say this, that Mario is producing this show right now. This is poetry. Last year, Indiana loses to Ohio State and Notre Dame, the two teams that play in the Natty. Ohio State wins. This year Ohio State loses to Indiana and Miami, the two teams that play in the Natty. Indiana is probably going to win both seasons. Oregon loses to one team, the national champ. Assuming that Indiana is going the national championship like this. Is that an excellent point? Like there is some symmetry here, right?

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

And we just got off. People know we have a substack Bill and doug o issue substack.com I was noting in there that Ohio State got right in under the wire of making fun of Kurt Signetti last year with the Google it thing on the video board. I you got, you had one shot to mock Kurt Signetti and like Will Howard was putting out the cigarette and that kind of thing. Right? And people are saying like, well, Kurt Signetti started it because he called out not just Purdue, but Ohio State and Michigan in his introductory press conference. But he has also now completely walked it. Ohio State also walked it on that day in Ohio Stadium. It is now weird to look back. You and I are both at that game. I went to the Indiana post game on that day. It was like, oh yeah, no, Indiana came in here like they couldn't handle it once because you were at the Indiana Notre Dame game last year and even that was like Notre Dame beat them. Competed better. Right? Like once at Indiana they have one Big Ten loss once had they really like not competed. And Ohio State did to Indiana that day what Indiana has been doing to the rest of college football ever since. And it's like, oh yeah, hahaha. The Google guy. Yeah, the Google guys kicking everybody's heiny.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, I really. We don't have the Big Ten schedule yet, but we know that Ohio State's going to Bloomington. I would, I would just like to fast forward to that game. So listen, I thought, I thought it was going to be cool that Ohio State was going to Texas. I don't. I could care less. I couldn't care less. It's going to Texas. I need to get the Bloomington stat.

[Doug Lam Reese]

We can go like a week early. I already said like, everybody's invited. Everybody who's in the YouTube chat right now, everybody who's listening back on a podcast. Of course, all of our subscribers on Substack, Bill and Doug show tailgate pregame. Ohio State at Indiana next year. Whatever the deal is, Game of the century, Texas, USC 5 can respectfully cram it. This is it. Especially if it's the two defending national champions who the year you know, had just played in a Big Ten championship game that was a three point game. Like this is.

[Bill Landis]

Whoo.

[Doug Lam Reese]

This is remarkable. Do you want to do a little bit on Dan Lanning before we go all the way down the path on. But also, I just want to say this real quick. Who'd you pick to win this game?

[Kurt Zetti]

I can't remember.

[Doug Lam Reese]

I can't remember either. But it starts with an O and it ends with an N. And in the middle is Rigo. Indiana over Miami, 80. Nothing. Can I just get it on the record right now? I'm done. I'm done. I. I buy the candy cigarettes that I pick. Oregon. What's wrong with me? What am I doing? What? What is it? We were. We were on this last year. We thought they were good last year. We. This is ridiculous. I can't believe the line. Seven and a half. I'm looking at FanDuel right now. Seven and a half. If the line for Ohio State, Miami was nine and a half. I literally. Not even being a northern troll, which I have vastly enjoyed being the last couple days, I would direct anyone to my rant about the midness and the deadness of the SEC which preceded this live show on this YouTube page and in your podcast feeds. I literally think that's like a 14 and a half point spread. Why is that not at least 12 and a half? 7 and a half to me feels crazy. No offense to Miami.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, well, I. I think you need to factor in somewhat. At least Indiana getting put on a short field for touchdowns, like, well, what, three times, four times there's a defensive score and they were put on the short field at least three times.

[Doug Lam Reese]

I think that's right. Pick six. Yeah. Fumble up the three yard lines. Yeah.

[Kurt Zetti]

Punt. Yeah. So I think you. You can't count on those again. Right. And I don't know. I think I. It's not insane to me. It's a little lower than I would have guessed. I don't think I would have guessed two touchdowns. I might. I might have guessed like a. Similar to the Ohio State line.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Just real quick. Can I also borrow $50,000 from you?

[Kurt Zetti]

Sure.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Just real quick. Okay. Yeah. I'm gonna go hit that before it moves to 12 and a half. What do we think of Dan Lanning? Because this is one of those things that, and, and listen, it is a very difficult position for any coach to be in that you achieve at a high level to, to put your team and yourself in a position to play very good competition to get your doors blown off. But you and I had talked a lot this year about angry Oregon, revenge minded Oregon. They have transfers, they have young guys, they have returning guys. We like how the roster is built. As we've talked about Ohio State, we actually think that Oregon is a little bit of that middle ground where they hit the portal aggressively. They had a smaller high school recruiting class this year. I think we're going to talk a lot about Oregon roster building. You thought like, okay, maybe their quarterback can move a little around a little bit more than Julian sand did against Indiana. That actually I don't think proved itself out at all. Dante Moore got swamped by the Indiana pass rush very similarly and then gave the ball up, but also had the pick six. Just like had a pick six. Julian S had an early pick against Indiana. All the things that you maybe thought Oregon would do a little bit better against Indiana than Ohio State did. We'll get to Ohio State in a second. But like it didn't happen. So two straight years, Oregon's great, they're great. And then when it's go time in the playoff, they don't just lose, but they get embarrassed. They got embarrassed by Ohio State last year. They got blown out in the first half. They get embarrassed by Indiana here. I, I think it's a very difficult situation to take a successful coach and then be like, oh, but then when you play a good team and it really matters, you lose. It's like, well, yeah, we earned the right to lose that game, right? But these are two tough ones for indeed for Oregon and Dan Lanning, are they not? I'm curious how the Oregon fan base is going to react to this in the off season. Because in your mind, is Oregon missing something?

[Kurt Zetti]

I don't, I don't know. Like, I, I don't. I mean they were hurt. I know they're coming in this game. They were banged up a little bit. I don't.

[Doug Lam Reese]

2O line starters out by the middle of the game. I mean two, their best two running backs out like that. That is some component of this a little bit.

[Kurt Zetti]

And they're like, they were pretty young in the secondary, right? Like we talked, we've talked a lot about experience in this game, but they're playing some freshmen in the Back end of their defense.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Right. I think they are.

[Kurt Zetti]

That shows up a little bit. So I don't, I don't know if there's like a missing ingredient that I could point to and say like, this isn't good enough. I think maybe it's just more about Dan Lanning sort of evolution as a kind of like a big game coach. Right. Because he's got run off the field now twice to end the last two seasons. And even like his record against Washington's like not sterling. Right. He's a little, he's a little bit like in the Ryan Day spot. I think with Ryan Day was in early in his career. Not Ryan Day didn't get embarrassed the way that Day landing has these last two games. I guess he did in the championship against Alabama, but there was a pretty solid reason for why that happened. So I don't know. I think there, I think like I would feel about Dan Landing the same way I probably felt about Ryan Day four years into his tenure. Like you're not, you're not giving up on the idea of it, but clearly there's, there's, there's some growth that needs to happen. And this is another guy who's at a program that has like elevated itself to the top of the sport, but he's still learning on the job. And I think sometimes when you have that dynamic, the results can look a little wonky and make you question whether or not the like long term vision is actually there. I, I still think it is, but no, this is two years in a row where they've been like non competitive in huge games. That's not great.

[Doug Lam Reese]

I'll be very curious what Dante Moore chooses to do. I mean, you're projected as a top five pick, potentially a top two pick in the NFL draft. That's very hard to turn down. But if, if, you know, going into this game it's like, okay, this is a showdown potentially of the top two picks in the NFL draft. And to try to compare Fernando Mendoza and Dante Moore in this setting, there's no comparison right now. You know.

[Kurt Zetti]

Right.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Coaching is part of that. But Will Stein is a very admired offensive coordinator. Oregon had offensive line injuries, as you noted, running back injuries. Like the, you know, the one weird Dante Moore fumble is probably because there's a running back in there who's not used to being there and it hits his arm and it looks like he just dropped the ball. But it's not really his fault. That early pick six is like very reminiscent of, of Julian sand against Michigan. Right like they're just some of these things that like as a young quarterback, like you can't, can't be a little late, can't be a little telegraphed on and out like that. So I wonder what he would decide to do.

[Kurt Zetti]

Well, the other interesting part of it is he's, he's losing Will Stein and Tosh, the Poise offensive defensive coordinators, but he's already replaced them with in house replacements. Like, he's, he's, he's banking on what they have. He's just, he's elevating Drew Meringer. Remember Drew Meringer who's like Tom Herman's guy? He's going to be their new offensive coordinator. Oh, and there's a Chris Hampton wonder dc. Yeah. Chris Hampton or code DC Current Cody C. Is going to be the new defensive coordinator. So it's not like he's not going outside the building to get an infusion of fresh ideas here as they try to take that next step. He's, he's banking on what they have in house and sort of their, their program stability and identity.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Gonna be very, very interesting how we eyeball Oregon this off season. I think you still have to assume Dante More goes, then who's that? Like, is that back in the portal trying to figure something out?

[Kurt Zetti]

Well, it has to be back. Yeah. It's not. They don't. I don't know. Yeah, Novasad left. They had jks and then he left.

[Doug Lam Reese]

I've been good to keep him.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah. So I don't. Yeah, I don't. It's weird because I don't even know that I've seen Oregon's name, like with a lot of these. I don't know. It's gonna be like Dylan Raiola. I have no idea what their quarterback's gonna be next year. Yeah. But it's gonna be a transfer.

[Doug Lam Reese]

It's gonna be interesting for Oregon. It's gonna be. I'll be curious to see how the fans react to this. And I think people in the Ohio State chat were telling us like the, the Reddit was on fire or something that like they were shutting the Reddit down. I don't know. Reevaluation time for Oregon. Like this was this season, as it turned out felt was kind of a continuation of last year. It's like, man, you got blitzed by Ohio State when you were number one and undefeated. Stuff happens and then here you are. Okay. Or Indiana comes to your place, but you get your shot at revenge. Right. You can do this. And then you got blissed again, so on, on some level I'm sympathetic to, I believe in the blitz. I absolutely believe in the blitz. And sometimes a good team, like especially if there's turnovers involved that gets against you in an environment like this where everybody is at the game, let's say in 90:10 for the Indiana crowd versus Oregon, right. It's basically it's a home game for Indiana and you just stuff happens to you and you get outside yourself and I believe in that. But it's twice you ended your season getting blitzed twice. That's tough. So we'll have time to talk about Oregon before we talk about like what this means for Ohio State.

[Kurt Zetti]

Like how do you, before we get off of Oregon, what do you what, what will it do for 87 year old film nights investment in an Oregon national title that they just lost to an Adidas school. It's two Adidas schools in a national title game being noticed.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Is Adidas school find a new school move.

[Kurt Zetti]

I don't know. He's already put so much money into the program like, like that. That doesn't appear to be the issue. They have a good roster.

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[Doug Lam Reese]

I don't know I. Because I don't know that I think. I don't know that I think Oregon's missing something. But I mean there's a lot of. I, I didn't like the Dan Lanning, Colorado is all about sizzle and we're about substance. Saying it right into the camera that he invited into the locker room that, that I did like from Dan Lanning, by the way.

[Kurt Zetti]

They do every week they have their own documentary every in house documentary every week called Ducks Versus Called Ducks versus Them that shows Dan Lanning's pregame speech.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Haven't watched that. I'll be curious to watch this one.

[Kurt Zetti]

I bet the pregame speech isn't in it.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Kurt Signetti thinks that he could have people smoking candy, cigarettes. It's, it's hard, it exacerbates it when you bring a little bit of that, right? When you, that's part of who Dan Lanning is. It's like, again, you can't separate. It's like, hey, Dan Lanning, what if you just chill out a little bit, it's like, well, then you're not Dan Lanning. But when you are that and then you get boat race to end your two seasons. That's tough.

[Kurt Zetti]

It is tough. Yeah. Yeah. Well, oh, but I don't, I, I don't know that my advice to him would be to change though, right? I, I just like, no, I, I.

[Doug Lam Reese]

I don't think that's.

[Kurt Zetti]

Because I think that's who he is. So it either works for you or it doesn't. But I don't think you can like, try to change who you are.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Right. Is Indiana super?

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, I suppose they are, but they sort of defy every thing you'd expect from a super team. They were talking about the number of four and five star prospects on each of these rosters. It's like Indiana doesn't have any.

[Doug Lam Reese]

The broadcast went a long way down the road towards LSU comparisons tonight. You know, like they were calling Fernando Mendoza, Joe Burrow, which I don't think is wrong, because guess what? These might. Guess what he's going to do. He's going to win the Heisman, win the national championship and be the number one pick. That's called the Borough, so. Or the Cam Newton. Right. How many guys have done that? Cam Newton, Joe Burrow and Fernando Mendoza. Number Heisman national title number one pick. If anybody in the chat knows if, if that there are other people who have done that besides Joe Burrow and Cam Newton, please alert this to them. Johnny Manziel, Johnny Manza. Was he the number one pick? I can't remember. They didn't win the national title.

[Kurt Zetti]

Did they win the national title?

[Doug Lam Reese]

No. Scrappy. So, like, that's real. But then, like the other stuff. But but also then it's like, well, okay, I, I know that Elijah Surratt and Omar Cooper Jr. And Charlie Becker are not Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chase in terms of talent and where they're going to be drafted, but they're as productive as those guys. Right? And then I think I'd take this Indiana defense. But we always. You're always on the lookout. Obviously, a lot of our stuff is through an Ohio State lens. You're always on the lookout for a super team. And this is going to get into the Ohio State discussion, because everything in sports, it's not just about you. It's about you. And then who else is out there you can control. You. You can't control who's out there. And sometimes you're great and you really don't have much wrong with you. And someone's just greater. And you just were. You chose to be awesome in the wrong year. And we've seen those teams, Bill, haven't we? And I'm, I'm starting to wonder. This is from an Ohio State perspective, but also from a whole sport perspective. They made the playoff last year. They were only one of four teams to make it again this year. They were undefeated the whole season. They went to Oregon and won. They beat an Illinois team that was ranked at the time by 50. Right? They, they've destroyed everybody in their pass. They destroyed Alabama, they destroyed Oregon. What more proof do we need? What else do we need? Is this a situation where anybody else in the country, you can be disappointed in what you didn't do, you can be frustrated with where you fell short, but also, was maybe nobody gonna beat these guys? When you think about the experience, and we've talked about how many snaps and seasons their most important players have had. When you talk about the defensive identity led by Bryant Haynes, but with real, like, all Big Ten quality players at every level of the defense. When you talk about a real run game, when you talk about an offensive line that has real dudes, Carter Smith and Pat Coogan and guys like that are real dudes. When you have multiple receivers, your. Your fourth receiver looks like he'd be a number one receiver for a bunch of other teams. Charlie Becker, out of nowhere, number 977 recruit in the country two years ago, is out here making plays like a, like a champ, and you have the Heisman winner at quarterback, two coordinators who are at the top of the sport and are now being compensated that way, and arguably the greatest head coaching effort we've seen in the modern era. Sounds like a super team to me.

[Kurt Zetti]

What, what if I offered, which I think is true, that all three of Ohio State, Iowa and Penn State feel like they should have beat them. Like, feel like they, they probably had them beat and blew it.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Yeah, you're right. They're not right. The strength of the Big Ten, this is what it takes. Even a super team was nearly a three loss team in the mighty Big Ten, acknowledged by Sean McDonough and the executives at ESPN as obviously the premier conference in the country. Clip that out. You guys heard it. Bootzilla, Woody Bear, Brett K. You guys all heard it. You heard it. Sean McDonough said it. It's true. That's real. And I wanna, I wanna save the Ohio State point for late because Ohio State didn't play tonight. So I want to say that point, but I'll buy that. But I also wonder, I don't have off the top of my head, who did LSU almost lose to in 2019. 2020. Who did Georgia almost lose to in 2021. Right. So sometimes that still happens, but they are undefeated. I mean, there are people in our chat talking about, I mean, if this is 16 0, where does it rank in the greatest seasons in college football history? If this is 16 0, they beat Oregon twice, they beat Ohio State, they beat Alabama, they beat last year's number one through the whole regular season twice, they beat last year's national champion, and they beat the defining dynasty of this modern era. Like, you're in the conversation. You're in the conversation for sure.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, yeah. And I don't, I don't know off the top of my head either, like, what is, what is considered like the most singularly sort of like dominant championship season, but whatever it is, didn't include 16 wins, so.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Right.

[Kurt Zetti]

I think I, I think we sort of were talking about this with Ohio State like in the regular season right. When it looked like they were going to be 120 and, and repeat. Like, how could you not consider that? At least consider it as one of the greatest seasons ever and maybe the greatest. I have to go through that just that many games without losing and like the, the sort of, the, the gauntlet you kind of find yourself going through once you get to the postseason to win the national title. So I, you know, I, I probably will. I think we probably should like, sit down and actually like research it a little bit to find what the other comparisons are out there so we can more clearly define it. But of course it's in the conversation. Yeah. And, and honestly, like the fact that it's Indiana Gives it a boost. Right. I do think if it were a traditional blue, but blue blood doing it, you would almost not give them quite as much credit because of the expectations to, to almost pull it off. Right. Like Indiana didn't have those expectations. They were. I didn't even realize this was. I saw people talking about it earlier today, like, how long Indiana's national title odds were coming into the season. I knew they weren't among like the favorites, but they were, they were like, weren't they like what were like 50 to 1 or something like that to win the national title this year? I think so. Okay.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Yeah. Okay. I think it's sustainable. And people were asking in the chat during the game and, and we have some Indiana fans in here and we're happy to have them here. Who's saying who? Hoosiers. Who did I see? Henry Huckleberry. Heinrich Huckleberry is here. Welcome to all Indiana fans. Mike Shanahan got a three year contract in December, 1.8 million a year. He's 36 years old as the offensive coordinator. Been with Kurt Zagnetti for a decade. Brian Haynes, 40 years old, got a raise to $3 million a year on average in December. I think no. Jim Knowles, maybe at Penn State have been the only other $3 million coordinator. So they're compensating, you know, the opposite side of the ball from Kurt Signetti, who was a college quarterback and has been a receivers coach. And an offensive guy like Brian Haynes runs that defense. And they're compensating him as the, the best paid coordinator in the country right now. And he said at the time, right, that he's not necessarily in a hurry to be a head coach. And you have some, like, you have some rare loyalty there, you have some rare relationships, you have some rare continuity. And that's the part of this that it is. It's new to Indiana, but there's tremendous continuity from jmu, from the staff beyond jmu, back to Elon, back to previous stops, but with how many guys they brought from jmu. This is a, is a united team that knows each other very well. And I was saying, like, you're trying to make comparisons for this. I think we might be at the point where trying to find comparisons for Kurt Signetti and trying to compare anyone to Kurt Ziggetti, and again, for instance, Ohio State fans are doing that with Ryan Day. I just, it's, it's reasonable. Of course, I also think there might not be a point to it because how do you, how can you make another Guy like this, how can you create another situation like this? It doesn't mean you give up and say, well, we can't beat that guy. But wanting your guy to be more like that guy, I don't think it's possible. This. This guy's one of a kind. And so to beat your head against the wall of why. Why doesn't my team have this? Like. Because you don't. I don't. He's just. The way he's doing this has never been done before. But the continuity here is real. And I compared it a little bit. You know, Jim Trestle, when he came to Ohio State from Youngstown State in 2001, he brought a lot of people, now that there were more people who had worked with him previously at Youngstown State, then went elsewhere and then rejoined him at Ohio State. But Mark d' Antonio and Mark Snyder on the defensive side of the ball, had worked with him at Youngstown State. Jim Bowman, on the offensive side of the ball, worked with him at Youngstown State. He didn't bring half a. He didn't bring 15 players from Youngstown State. But to have this kind of continuity with the staff, Bill, you feel like you love Brian Haynes, right? And you love Mike Shanahan too. Like, you see, you can see the coaching with this team. It's not unheard of, but it is a separator for them right now.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, I think the. You've compared them in the past to Clemson, which I actually think is like a really strong comparison because you do have this sort of. Kind of like one of one personality at the top. Right? Not saying that Dabo and Sig are the same, but. But sort of in their own way, I do think they are one of one. But then you have this sort of belief in the systems that you've created where you just kind of keep your guys around and. Yeah, that was. That was a. I mean, you know, Clemson also had the Sean Watson and Trevor Lawrence, but. But there was a. There was just a. Like a comfort and like the ability to just like deeply understand your systems, how they work, what they work against, how they're attacked, what the answers are, how to teach it that I think Indiana has. Because these guys have been so. Been. Been together for so long. I know people are just getting familiar with them now at Indiana, but like, Brian Hayes was at Indiana University of Pennsylvania, which is a Division 2 school with Kurt Signetti and Shanahan, I think, joined up with them when they got to Elon, maybe or maybe not till they got the JMU but it's not like. Like, neither one of these guys has been, like, been the actual coordinator for Sig all that long. Like, both of them, I think less than five years, but they've been with him in this system for a decade. It's actually funny, like, I was, like, poking around to see, like, okay, like, who. Who were on these staffs, like, at Elon and IUP and like, early JMU days. Like, a lot of those guys have, like, that. That were the coordinators previous to Shanahan and Haynes, like, kind of left and didn't do anything. So I think. I think there is something too, to. To Sig that kind of. You keep yourself attached to him. You'll. You'll find success. But I. I do think it's a huge part of it, right? And. And, like, then it helps if you have this staff that just has this such a strong, intimate knowledge of what they want to do and how they want to play, and then you bring in a bunch of old players to teach it to. I just. I just think it hits much quicker. Like, they were. If they were recruiting a bunch of high school guys, I don't think it would hit as fast, but because they're so old and work the portal so well and. And brought guys from JMU who obviously were familiar with it, with it, too, on both sides of the ball, it was just able to catch on basically immediately.

[Doug Lam Reese]

It is. It is remarkable. And I think. I think we're all learning lessons about college football in this era, right? And one of them is, I think some of those G6 programs, right? The best G6 programs, they don't have 44 guys. They don't even probably have 22 guys who can really compete and succeed at the highest level, at the next highest level in the Power 4, but their best 7, 10, or 12 probably can. And it just. It remains remarkable to me that if. If Chris Ignetti had not been hired by Indiana and it stayed at jmu, d' Angelo Ponds and Aiden Fisher and Elijah Surratt and Mikhail Kamara and all these guys just would have been. And I don't mean to say just, but that's the way people think about college football in a lot of ways, would have been great players at jmu, and that would have been it. And maybe some of them would have been drafted in the NFL, but nobody would have been having conversations about them. And. And I understand sort of the continued discussion around recruiting stars and, like, where what people's draft prospects are and trying to evaluate Indiana's talent They're talented now.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

They're gonna.

[Kurt Zetti]

There's NFL players. There's NFL players, real players there.

[Doug Lam Reese]

And it's.

[Kurt Zetti]

I don't know that there's a bunch of first rounders, but there's NFL players. Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

But it's like, you see what d' Angelo Ponce does on the first play game. It's like, how was that guy who played in a major program in South Florida? I know he's a little short, but he's JMU.

[Kurt Zetti]

That's the other thing. It's like D' Angelo Pond. Everything about D' Angelo Ponds is first round except for the fact that he's 5, 9 or whatever he is.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Right, right.

[Kurt Zetti]

And I think probably the same thing is true of Aiden Fisher. He'd like Indiana. And Signetti and the staff have done a really good job of identifying the, the right skill sets and mentalities sort of in maybe like unorthodox packages. Right. But the result is you get really, really good college football players. Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

So, you know, there's certainly a discussion and it's not the discussion for tonight when we're now focused on a Miami, Indiana national championship game and admiring what Indiana did against Oregon tonight. But like the sustainability of this. Of course, there's a little bit of a question when the JMU guys are gone, but you see the way Indiana's working the portal. You see the way that they are bringing in talent there. They're bringing in more high school talent. They've established themselves as perhaps, I don't know if I want to say the most. Maybe Miami's right there with them, but one of the most attractive places for transfer portal quarterbacks. Right. I mean, Miami's in the national championship game with Carson Beck. They turned help turn Cam Ward into the number one pick last year. So they're certainly there. But Curtis Work had a great season last year with second team all Big Ten. Right now, Fernando Mendoza won the Heisman. If you're a guy and it feels like is Josh Hoover signed it in the end, is that official?

[Kurt Zetti]

I think so.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Or is that just like what everybody expects? I mean, like that's, that's a great quarterback because he's going to be as good as Fernando Mendoza. I don't think Josh Hoover is going to win the Heisman, but that's a really good quarterback to get. So I just don't think I. I think it's reasonable. And I've seen a couple people in the chat, everyone says this, what's going to happen when the JMU players leave? But I think this level of success is bringing in the type of talent. Now, will it be the same continuity the way that Aiden Fisher knows Bryant Haynes and Kurt Signetti, the way Elijah Surratt knows Mike Shanahan and Kurt Signetti? No, it won't be that same type of continuity, and that is one of their superpowers right now. But they're. But the talent discussion is going to fade away because they're bringing in real talent, and I don't think they're going away. This is their peak. Of course it is. How could it be better than this? We're talking about having one of the greatest seasons in college football history, but I don't think they're going away. And that means, like, okay, maybe they lose a game or two next year, but they're still in the playoff mix. And then maybe the year after that they do whatever. But they're still. I think they're going to be consistently in the playoff mix. Maybe not as almost exactly on point as they've been this year, but this is real.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah. I mean, I just. I don't know how you could think anything other than it's real. And. And I'm. I'm sort of in the camp, too, of at least wanting. Pumping the brakes a little bit because I want to see what it looks like when, like, as you said, the JMU guys cycle out. But it's not like there aren't 14 JMU guys on this team. There's six. Like, there's. There's not. I went through the roster yesterday because people talking about the chats, like, I just wanted to, like, familiarize myself exactly with what it is. There are six James Madison transfers who are, like, among their top 30 players. It's not like it's half. I think there were more last year than around this year.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Kaylin Black.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Aiden Fisher, Mikhail Kamara, Tyreek Tucker are the six of their top 30 guys in snaps who are from JMU.

[Kurt Zetti]

And then Mario Landino, they're very good sophomore. I think defensive tackle was committed to JMU out of high school when the staff got hired to Indiana and they flipped him to Indiana. Yeah. Otherwise the rest of the roster are new transfers they brought in. Or, like, so, like, among their top 30, there's 12 new transfers they brought in this year and 10 guys they inherited. So, like.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Right.

[Kurt Zetti]

It's not. It's not. It's not just like. It's not merely. They have six JMU guys, which also, like, by the way, think about what you're saying. It's like, oh, it's just because they have the. Yeah, man, the James Madison guys that they recruited out of high school and developed over four years to get to the point where they are now.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Yeah, why can't we have the JMU guys? It's not fair.

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[Doug Lam Reese]

No, you're right. I mean you think about it. Pat Coogan from Notre Dame this off season, Fernando Mendoza from Cal, couple guys from Wisconsin, E.J. williams.

[Kurt Zetti]

But even Khalil Benson and Lewis Moore are like are technically transfers. But they were at Indiana before, right?

[Doug Lam Reese]

They came back. Roman Hemby from Maryland. Yeah, we, we understand it. Stephen Daley, the unfortunate injury from Kent State, NC State, Western Kentucky. So yeah, it's, I mean the six like the, the JM you guys are talking about, it's like the five of those guys are just like, I mean they wouldn't be here without them. Right?

[Kurt Zetti]

Like they're most important. Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Doug Lam Reese]

But. But it's not the whole team. So I you think Miami can compete? I don't think Miami is going to be able to compete with this because I think the things that Miami took advant up against Ohio State, they won't have the same type of matchups with Indiana. I think Indiana's offensive line is better, their quarterback is more experienced and more mobile and that was a problem for Ohio State and Julian Sane in that game. And then I feel like Indiana's defensive game plan will just be a little better and more effective. When you and I ran through the Ohio State Miami game, you thought their Blitzes weren't particularly effective. They were still playing some off coverage that you didn't exactly understand. The pick six is kind of a lightning in the bottle kind of thing. That's a great Miami play, but you can't necessarily count on that and that flips the game. Right. I just, I just think Indiana is so precise and Miami played its most precise game against Ohio State. I expect Indiana to replicate that precision in the national title game because they've done it all year. I find it much more difficult for Miami to do the same. And then if they don't, I think they might get steamrolled.

[Kurt Zetti]

I don't think they're going to get steamrolled. What did Mikhail Kamara got hurt twice in this game. Was it cramps or something more serious?

[Doug Lam Reese]

I don't know, jokes in the chat. I apologize.

[Kurt Zetti]

Now you're, you're potentially talking three defensive line injuries that Indiana has to deal with. Like eventually that has to matter, right? I think, I realize I'm saying this after this round organ off the field, but if you look at Indiana's season, when they play very good defenses, typically their offense doesn't scale it. It did technically in this game, but they got put on short fields three times. I think, you know, had they not, maybe they would have moved it up and down the field on Oregon anyway. But they didn't the first time they played them. They didn't do it against Ohio State, they didn't do it against Iowa, they didn't do it against Penn State. And Miami's got a really good defense. So I, I think as long as there aren't those short field turnovers, I think Miami might be able to keep Indiana's offense like reasonably in check. I do think Miami will have a hard time scoring in Indiana, but I don't know. I think like I thought this was going to be like a low scoring kind of kind of game and I think if you don't have a bunch of turnovers in the Indiana Miami game, it can be the same.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Indiana's touchdown drives. They had to pick six and then 11 play, 75 yards, three plays, three yards, four plays, 61 yards, six plays, 21 yards, 11 plays, 75 yards, three plays, seven yards, five plays, 65 yards. So they had a three yard touchdown drive, a seven yard touchdown drive in the pick six. They also then like pretty much marched it. They punted three times the whole game. So they, they wound up with one. How can I. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

[Kurt Zetti]

Explosives. They had a couple explosives.

[Doug Lam Reese]

But don't you think they'll be able to do that again?

[Kurt Zetti]

I mean, I know the weakness of Miami's defense is certainly it's secondary. So like I think Surratt and Cooper will be able to get open. But I, I, and I, I just a matter of like, can Miami bother Mendoza? Like I thought like Ohio State bothered Mendoza. Mendoza like throws to help Indiana win that game, but he wasn't slicing a dice on him. I think there's a chance maybe he doesn't against Miami. Yeah, I don't, like, I'm trying to look up. Do you think Indiana's, Indiana's offensive success rate in this game was 30%.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Is that bad or good? Bad. It's bad. It's not like the normal offensive Success rate's like 11 and it's like it was 30. It's like, okay, I get this sounds kind of bad. Do you think Carson Beck as a sixth year quarterback is more, will be more able to handle what Bryant Haynes and that defense dials up than Julian Saying as a first year starter for Ohio State, than Dante Moore who had the experience against UCLA but is not nearly as experienced as Carson Beck? Do you think that's part of it?

[Kurt Zetti]

A slight part of it, yeah. Like, I don't know. And like what? Carson Beck's played well in the postseason. Like he's, he's elevated his game. I think he was, he was excellent in the fourth quarter against Ole Miss and he made some big time plays with his legs against Ohio State. So I think he stands a better chance behind a better or at least like healthier offensive line than when Oregon had for most much of this game to not be like, as under as much duress maybe as Dante Moore was. And I, I also like, I.

[Doug Lam Reese]

I.

[Kurt Zetti]

Don'T know that I'd be shocked if Miami could run it a little bit on Indiana.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Okay, well we'll, we'll, we'll have time, we'll do a bit, we'll do a breakdown on this. You know, I, I think all your points about Indiana are right. I think there's a, there's a chunk of Miami that was lucky to play like a lackluster old miss defense. And if they had played a better defense in the semis, I don't know if they'd be where they are. They played like a mistake free penalty, free game against Ohio State and that's not really who they are. And if they don't replicate that, they did not move the ball or, or do much against Texas A M and they found a way to win that game in large. I don't know Texas and didn't make any plays like I do. I don't dispute that. If. If part of the calculus here is this was a complete blowout that it just got away from him. And it's not necessarily indicative of Indiana from a success rate standpoint. Just did whatever they wanted all night. Three easy TDs, flips that game and Oregon was hurting and gave the ball away. Right.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

But I think Miami's been not lucky. But there have been things for Miami that have lined up in a particular way, I think, like fortunate against Texas A and M. Played a baller game against Ohio State in the game that matched up well for them. Got a little fortunate in some ways against Ole Miss. And I just think the precision of Indiana is going to be a problem for him.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, I think. I think it probably would require Miami's A game, which I think they more or less played against Ohio State with the exception of, like, they didn't really get Malachi Tony going.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Yeah.

[Kurt Zetti]

But aside from. Aside from that, it probably was their A game. So they would need that, I think, to beat Indiana. And I also. I don't know how much it matters or should matter or we should factor in the fact that they're playing in their home field. I think it probably matters a smidge. Right. There's gonna be a ton of Indiana fans there, but yeah, just like.

[Doug Lam Reese]

It.

[Kurt Zetti]

Could be there to their detriment. Right. Like there's. They don't have to travel anywhere. Right. They're comfortable. They're. They flew back from Phoenix last night and they're not leaving their home. I mean, they'll be.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Everyone's always like, oh, where are you practicing? It's like they're practice. We're gonna practice on our field. What are you talking about? They're gonna sleep in their own beds and practice on their own field. I think that. Matt, I think that matters more than where the. Than the game, because I think at the game, I think there'll be more Indiana fans than Miami fans.

[Kurt Zetti]

I think it could be. Yeah. Yeah. Miami does not have a robust home field advantage typically anyway.

[Doug Lam Reese]

But just being comfortable and not having to fly and not having to stay in a hotel, I think could be an advantage. Let's talk about Ohio State a little bit.

[Kurt Zetti]

Okay.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Indiana doing this. And looking like this. And looking like this. So Indiana beats Ohio State 13 to 10. Ohio State misses a 27 yard field goal in the fourth quarter late that would have tied it. Watching Indiana do this to Alabama and Oregon. Should it have any effect on how Ohio State fans feel about this season? And then on top of the fact the two teams that Ohio State lost to are playing for the national championship, but particularly Indiana, I mean, I'm not.

[Kurt Zetti]

Going to do the thing where I tell them they should feel better about the year because they lost to the two teams they play for. Like, I. Yeah, I would imagine it's more frustrating than anything. Right. Like, I don't. I think. I think on. In some regard, like, it is. It is a. Like, an endorsement of them probably having just about everything they needed, like, almost to make a real run at repeating his national champions. A little short at quarterback against Miami, A little short on the offensive line against Miami, but it's not like they got run off the field and had the ball in the fourth quarter of both those games with a chance to win. Right? So.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Right.

[Kurt Zetti]

They were kind of right there. But I don't. I don't think that should make you feel better. Right. It should light a fire under Ohio State, I guess under, like. Under, like, the team or whatever. But I. I think it just probably adds to the frustration of the season.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Right.

[Kurt Zetti]

Like, they didn't. They did not put their best foot forward in either of those games, and it was clear. And had they better prepared for both of them, they could have won both of them and been the team that won the game tonight.

[Doug Lam Reese]

So I do think so. It's not a knockout game. The Ohio State, Indiana game's not a knockout game. It would have affected seating. Right. Obviously. I think. I think what Ohio State fans. I think what any fan base would wonder about is, like, you lost to this team and you thought at the time I left the Big Ten championship game saying, these are the two best teams in the country. I think it is taking. It is not making excuses for Ohio State. Miami outplayed Ohio State in that game. And I'm not doing the. Nine times out of 10, Ohio State would have won that game. I think just like both sides of the ball, holistically, top to bottom, when you see, like, Ohio State's gonna put four guys in the top 20 of the NFL draft, right. There's some great players on Miami, too. I don't know that. If I thought leaving Indianapolis, these are the two best teams in the country, I don't think that was wrong. Right. And so the results would tell you, well, Miami beat Ohio State. That's all that matters is results. But if Ohio State fans were saying, man, we were so close against Indiana, it was a chaotic week that week for Ohio State. You missed a field goal at the end. Julian Saenz knee hits the ground on a fourth and one sneak that you thought you got all these things that Ohio State could have beaten Indiana that night and if man, just give Ohio State another shot at Indiana and Ohio State would have gotten them. I think watching Indiana these two games maybe makes you think like, I don't know, maybe this is Indiana's year and the. You don't think that or you do.

[Kurt Zetti]

No, no, I agree with you. I don't, I don't think. Yeah, those, they're, they're pretty close. Like if they got on the field, excuse me, got on the field again, Indiana could definitely beat them again.

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[Doug Lam Reese]

Rather than maybe thinking, oh, Ohio State was better than Indiana and blew it, it's like, ah, it's one of those things. Again, I, I don't mean to cite this. I don't think people like how I met your mother. I like it. I, I also like, I just would say again, I watched it. Then two guys who were part of it started doing a podcast about it and I was all excited to listen to the podcast. And then I think that the people doing the podcast are kind of douches and so it makes me like the show less. But there's a thing in there I remember. It's like you think you're telling like a love story and then you find out that it is a love story, it's just not yours. And like you think you're telling, I think Ohio State and, and we covered Ohio State all year. We still do. You think you're telling a story of Ohio State season and there's these two undef defeated teams are the only two undefeated teams left. And Ohio State's trying to repeat for the first time in program history. And it turns out that it's like, no, actually it just was Indiana story the whole time. And maybe everybody else in the country knew that, but they weren't ranked number one. But maybe there's really nothing to indicate that it hasn't been Indiana's story the whole time. From beating Illinois by 50, to miracle comebacks against Iowa and Penn State, to finding a way to win in Indianapolis, to what they've done in the playoff, it has been Indiana's story the whole time. It's been right in front of us. And so we're not here to tell any fan base how to think, but I, I think maybe there's a little bit of a begrudging acknowledgment of that of this is Indiana's year. It wasn't, as it turned out, Ohio State year as opposed to it was Ohio State's year. And because they missed a 27 yard field goal or other goofy stuff happened, or Brian Hartline took a job, this crazy coach stole something from Ohio State. I, I certainly don't feel that now. Doesn't mean Ohio State could not have beaten Indiana in a rematch. But I don't feel like Indiana stole Ohio State's championship. It feels to me like this is Indiana's championship.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, but I think you're right and I think even like whatever I mentioned, the close games Indiana played mostly just like, you know, keep them in mind as we try to determine whether or not this is one of the great, great teams we've ever seen. But the fact that those games went still in Indiana's way, like there's a little bit of magic in there, right? That just I think kind of underscores that it's Indiana season. So and sometimes that sometimes you run into the team of destiny, right? And I think that's maybe what happened to Ohio State. And even, even then they still probably could have and should have won that game, but they didn't make the plays like they needed to make. And Indiana, which also I did not play, I'm sure Indiana feels like they'll play its best version of version of ball against. So I say it either, but like it made a couple big plays when it had to and won a close game there. Did we? I can't remember when we were talking like mid year or maybe like earlier, I guess it was before Miami lost, it was Ohio State, Miami Indiana.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Right.

[Kurt Zetti]

That those were our three teams or was it Ohio State A M in Miami? I couldn't remember.

[Doug Lam Reese]

It was Ohio State, Miami and Oregon.

[Kurt Zetti]

Oh, Oregon. Okay. Okay.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Those were the three that we talked about. And then Indiana went to Oregon and we were like, oh, but I don't, I don't think we flipped to like. Well, now we think it's Ohio State, Indiana and Miami. Right. We just were. I think, well, Indiana's.

[Kurt Zetti]

Indiana's rise kind of coincided with Miami starting to fall off a little bit. Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

So. And then at that point it's like you reached a point where it was like, well, there's. There was three undefeated teams left. It's like, okay, I guess it's Ohio State, Indiana and Texas A and M. And like, I don't know if you believe in Texas A and M and their schedule, but you have to acknowledge, you know, they hadn't lost and so. But I think I was stronger on my September idea of the three best teams or Oregon, Miami and Ohio State than I was on October or November idea of the two best teams are Ohio State and Indiana. And that's just slow on the uptake. Yeah. Ignoring what was happening right in front of us as a team that has alternated between kicking the snot out of people and finding miracle ways to win. So they really have like three kind of miracle ways to win against Penn State, Iowa and Ohio State. And they also destroyed Illinois, they destroyed Oregon, they destroyed Alabama, they destroyed Oregon again. Right. They are, they are winning every way possible. And part of it, it's their own fault. They don't play anybody the non conference. And so they. You get ignored in September. Right. And that's, that's their doing. Maybe it's smart. I don't know. It's certainly. They've made the playoff the last two years playing nobody in the non conference. If that's going to be their strategy, then somebody has to make them pay for it. If you don't like the strategy. But.

[Kurt Zetti]

I would just like to point out the two, the two G6 teams that Indiana opened the season with, Old Dominion and Kennesaw State, both won 10 games, both won 30.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Kurt Signetti knows G6 teams to play beat and then like respect at the end.

[Kurt Zetti]

But yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

As. As much as I'm saying right now, maybe it was Indiana's season all along. I certainly. There was not a point at the season really before the Big Ten championship game where I was like, you know what? Yeah, I just think this is Indiana's season.

[Kurt Zetti]

I, I definitely did not because we both picked Ohi to beat Indiana. Right. Like, I didn't.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Because we're terrible at picking.

[Kurt Zetti]

I was pretty good for a while. I really, it really got away from me.

[Doug Lam Reese]

But this is also, this is like one of those where it's like we're both terrible at picking and you're like two games under.500 and I'm like 17 games under.500 and so those aren't the same.

[Kurt Zetti]

But I didn't. No, I, I was slow in the uptake too. Like, respect respecting Indiana, feeling good about my, my preseason sort of assertion that this year's Indiana was going to be Indiana, but then. But not thinking that it was going to lead them to a national championship game and that they were like unequivocally the best team in the country. I did not really come around to that until they beat Ohio State.

[Doug Lam Reese]

So we're going to continue the age and experience conversation into the off season because we're fascinated by it. And I'm just gonna. You're gonna watch film and I'm not good at watching film, so I'm just gonna count up stats. This is the last year of the COVID guys. So the sixth year guys now are. Because their first year was in 2020, which was a Covid year that didn't count for anybody. Right. So we are going to get out of this realm of the sixth year guys to some degree. I know Trinidad Chambliss is fighting for an extra year and Diego Pavia wants to play till he's 30. But like, we're going to creep out of that to some degree. Right. Even as the NCAA considers, should it be everybody can play five, but you don't get any more than five. I don't know where that stands. But we are going to creep out of that to some degree. But there is an absolute, I think, age advantage and age conversation that will continue. It just won't include as many sixth year guys. But they're going to be programs that still try to work the portal and find fourth and fifth year guys who have developed somewhere else or, you know, taking their lump somewhere else and they come to your place and the kind of they're ready made and they're ready to go and then you can elevate them from where they are rather than building them up from scratch. But as we've talked about, you know, Michigan did that in 2023, Ohio State did that in 2024. We are certainly on track for the Big Ten to win three straight and Indiana's on the same path in 2025. We thought it was Penn State. Penn State was old by keeping guys. Indiana's old by bringing in guys. But the bottom line is you're old. And so what we're looking at is three veteran, seasoned Big Ten teams, assuming Indiana wins, winning three straight national championships. And that will continue to be part of the conversation. And I think it's a smart way of doing business. It doesn't mean it's an easy way of doing business, but it's absolutely something that everyone's going to be tracking and monitoring, and the people who are building programs are going to be thinking about it. We're certainly going to be thinking about it and how we evaluate teams. We.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, we are. It's funny to me, though, right, because it felt like. And we talked about it in these terms, like, I felt like, like Ohio State laid a blueprint last year, right, by, like, retaining their guys. And it's like, well, that's not really what's happening now. That was a different way of being old. I guess maybe it all kind of. Kind of comes back to the same idea. But I also thought, like, as we're, as we're navigating the. The portal madness while the playoff is happening, like, I, I've been looking at, like, Oregon's plan of taking small high school classes and then supplementing, like, with, with good portal guys just being like, well, that seems like the way you should do it. And they just got their butts kicked by a team that does it a different way. So it's like, I don't know. I think it's. I think, yes, of course, like, being old benefits you. I'm just, like, a little cautious to say, like, that's the way, because it feels like the. Every time you identify the way the sport changes and then the way changes. So I'm not entirely sure what team should be thinking, but I, But I, I think you're. If you're, if you're assuming that teams are going to look at the, the blueprint for the teams that were in the playoff, the semifinals this year, and I think mostly like Indiana and Miami and how old they are, you're going to see a lot of teams trying to replicate that.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Don't be Indiana. Don't try to be Indiana. You'll just drink yourself crazy because you can't be this. Yeah, you can learn from Indiana. You can try to take things here and there. And I, And I do think experience is going to matter. And I often thought this in pro sports, Bill, and I think Maybe it mattered more. I covered Major league baseball for a while and I thought fans got to a point with this and maybe they're shaking out of it. Maybe still in the NFL, the NBA, I think they're shaking out of it. And it's a very difficult thing, I think, for fans because you want to value your guys more.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yep.

[Doug Lam Reese]

And it's like, well, the guys who came up through my team's farm system, and I watched them in double A and then in aaa, then they came up and they weren't that good and they got sent back down again. And I went to spring training and I saw them then and now here. They've played for a couple years and now they're a free agent. And I value my guy more than some stinking free agent who. I don't even know who they are. I don't even know what they look like. But that person, I'm gonna have that person come in instead of this homegrown guy. And it's actually like, just get the good player. You shouldn't want the homegrown guy more just because he's homegrown. That's not a way to winning. Build the best roster that you can, however you have to build it. And that I think can be a very difficult thing for fans, a not fun thing. And I think sometimes when front offices try to listen to fans, it can be very difficult thing for a front office because it's like, well, this guy's. This guy's just a better value or he's a better player, he fits our needs more. It doesn't matter where he came from. I think we're getting there in college football, and I think that's very, very difficult for fans. And I am completely empathetic to that. That idea of, I like recruiting, I like knowing that a guy picked us and then developed at our school and then started as a third or fourth year starter. Get the best players, get the best players for the best value. And. And do you want a culture and do you want a core? Of course, of course. But you can't do that one through 22 for the starters. You can't do that one through 30 for the guys that matter. You certainly can't do it 1 through 44 on a depth chart, on a too deep, where it's like, well, all 44 guys we recruited at a height. That's not what it's about anymore. And that is a very difficult realization. But I think it's an important one and I think it'll be okay. I Think fans will get accustomed to it because they'll still be enough guys. Right. If you have a superstar, if you have a Hall of Famer, you do whatever it takes to sign him, you're five star. That or the guy that really developed, that's an All American, you can do whatever it takes. But otherwise build the best player, build the best team, get the best players. Because I don't think there's anybody at Indiana that cared that Stephen Daly was at Kent State last year, that Fernanda Mendoza was a cow last year, or that three years ago Aiden Fisher and Elijah Surrat and Mikhail Kamara were jmu, that nobody who roots for Indiana cares about that because they're Hoosiers now and they're wearing a uniform now and they're fighting for you now.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

And so it's an adjustment.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, it is. I wonder we don't have to like go too far down the road now. I, I, I wonder.

[Doug Lam Reese]

It's midnight.

[Kurt Zetti]

I think, I do think it's going to turn some people off, right, like off of the sport a little bit, or at least like not make them quite as passionate. I don't think the general interest in college football is like, is going anywhere. In fact, it'll probably just continue to grow. But I do wonder if the sport might lose some like Die Hards or Die Hards become something, something a little less than that just because of the way we're doing this now. And it's like it's not the fan's.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Fault.

[Kurt Zetti]

That, that it is that way. But I don't know, I, I, I think maybe me thinking that could be a little bit prisoner of the moment too. I'm interested to see how it plays out. But obviously, yeah, if, if your team wins the way that Indiana wins, then I don't think fans will care all that much. But if you don't, I wonder if the level of like, emotional investment might lessen like even, even the slightest bit.

[Doug Lam Reese]

I can remember a little bit because it was a different time, just a little bit thinking like in 2019 when Justin Fields was starting quarterback for Ohio State and had been at Georgia as a true freshman and wasn't recruited by Ohio State and didn't have the same relationship, right, with fans that someone like, say, Braxton Miller had had, right? Thinking like, this is a little different, this is a little different. And then Justin Fields got out there and put his brain and body on the line. It was as tough as any quarterback you'd ever come come across and is climbing out of the medical tent and coming back in the Michigan game and throwing touchdown passes, like, who cared where this guy played last year? Right. He's wearing your team's uniform right now and he is giving literally everything he has for the team that you love. And that's what these guys are going to do. They're going to get paid. Right. They're going to do what's best for them. They're going to move around. I do think it is tough realization. It's probably always been true to some degree. There's plenty of players who grew up in a home state wanting to play for the home state team. But I think in general, fans care more about the team than the players do. And that's just a tough realization. But nobody. Because the players aren't on the team for 50 years, they can't care as much as a fan who's cared about a team for 50 years. So if you can accept that they don't have to care as much as you, but if they try their best when they're wearing the jersey that you care about so much and that your aunts and uncles and moms and dads and grandmother and grandfather cared about, that should be enough. I hope it is.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

So I hope it doesn't turn people off. And I think again, if you win, it doesn't matter. And maybe it's not so fun losing with strangers. I don't even know who these guys are. We're three and nine.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

I literally don't know who that is. He's our starting will linebacker. I have no idea who it is. All I know is he can't tackle anybody. But also, if you had followed that kid since he was 17 and had watched him as a recruit for two years and then had watched him develop for three years and he was finally starting in year four. You've known him for six years now. And if he can't tackle, are you like, you know what he can't tackle? But I sure do know that guy.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, but he's my guy.

[Doug Lam Reese]

I mean, is that really how it is anyway? Like, we. In the end, aren't we all judged on our performance? So I don't know. Indiana's model is not for everybody, but there are lessons to be learned. Bottom line.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, that's right.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Yeah. All right, we'll do a breakdown. I don't know. Do you want to do a big game breakdown for Indiana, Miami, or is that overkill?

[Kurt Zetti]

I think maybe it's a little overkill. Also, we have to cover Ohio State's ever evolving roster.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Oh, is their roster set? It's. Isn't it over? The portal closed at midnight tonight, right? It's closed, right?

[Kurt Zetti]

No, open. It's open for another week.

[Doug Lam Reese]

What? Come on. Two weeks of this stuff. Who wants this? Here's our recommendation. Don't follow every in and out of the portal. It'll make you absolutely crazy. Yeah, it, it might be good for the media. We're as the media, we're advising you. Maybe don't do it. Maybe check back when it's over and see how it went. Because the, like, the, the breathless coverage that the media is offering of things that aren't happening that might happen is I think as much as the. I understand the structure of the sport turning some people off, I think the way the media covers the sport is in some ways as responsible for what is frustrating fans as actually what is happening. It's the COVID just the breathless coverage of what is happening, of all the sausage making that. And I'm not advising you. Don't watch YouTube, don't listen to podcasts, don't go to Substack for another week. But I kind of am. You have our permission to ignore us.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah, it's okay, if that's what you want to do. Yeah, it's okay.

[Doug Lam Reese]

When it's over, come back, we'll tell you what's up, what happened, what it means who did it well, who didn't do it well, how it projects for next year. But it is because the portal is so long and there's still guys going in. It's not like even everybody. That's the thing about, like, free agency. You know who a free agent is? It's like, here's the list. List. Jeff Passon did a list of the 276 Best free agents in Major League Baseball. Halfway through free agency, they don't go, you know what? I'm a free agent too. That never happens. That's not how it works. But in college football, there are guys who aren't even in the portal yet that might decide to go in the portal. There's guys going in every day. I declare free agency and then you're a free agent. That's all it takes in college football. And so you can't possibly know how it's going to work out because nobody knows how it's going to work out. And in the process, all you might know is my team has no players. And it's like, well, do you think by the time it's over, your team's going to have no players? Or do you think they might add some. I understand why you think that now, but trust us, they'll get guys. The coaches aren't going to play. Guys aren't going to play two ways. There will be players on the roster. It's very frustrating. You and I are frustrated. You're frustrated.

[Kurt Zetti]

I hate the way the transfer portal is covered. Yeah.

[Doug Lam Reese]

Hate it. But it's our job to be frustrated. We're paid to be frustrated. You're not. So we absolve you, we free you and we want you. I swear to God, it's almost all that we care about is we want you to like college football. We want to help you like it more. And I think these two weeks are helping people like it less. And that makes me very upset. Not at the fans, but at the sport. And so we can't fix the sport overnight. And so we might have to tell you to, like, go for a walk and we'll see in a week because we completely understand where you are, but it's just like it's in service of nothing. It's just in service of giving yourself an upset stomach.

[Kurt Zetti]

Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, one more week because guess what?

[Doug Lam Reese]

I really thought we were free. It's like counting it down. But guess what? You know what's good? This one actually stunk for the first time in the. In the 12 team playoff. Wasn't like a really competitive, fun semifinal. Right? Like, like Notre Dame last year, Texas, Ohio State last year, Ole Miss against Miami, like all down to the wire. And then like, Kirsten, he ruined it for everybody.

[Kurt Zetti]

Thanks, Indiana. Way to dominate.

[Doug Lam Reese]

All right, we appreciate you guys being here. We'll catch you on the YouTube channel. We'll catch on the podcast feed. We'd love to catch you over on the sub stack. We do shows over there just for our subscribers. We write stuff just for our subscribers. There is a robust chat every day in the transfer portal. There's a robust chat during games. We're answering questions, we're hanging out, we're talking ball. We're having a good time, trying to keep it fun for everybody. We'd love for you guys to join us over there, but if not, we'll catch you here on YouTube and on the podcast feeds. Thanks to everybody who was live in the YouTube chat. It's late. We understand you have things to do and sleep to get. So it's fun to hang out with you late into the night. For now, he's Bill Landis. I'm Doug Lee Maurice, and that was the Phil and Doug show.

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[Doug Lam Reese]

Why?

[Bill Landis]

What's happening?

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[Bill Landis]

All that at Walmart?

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[Doug Lam Reese]

I knew.

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